Discussion:
Fwd: Re: Incubator For Political Crooks?
(too old to reply)
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2014-04-04 23:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar:I like to consult contemporary or historical writings for
facts about our history. I will retrieve from what I have read in the past
the names and/or designations of public officials who were reported to be
corrupt and crooked in the Portuguese administration when I have some free
time later.

jc: Excellent step

==

Santosh Helekar:: But asking to substantiate a factual statement by Roland
is not asking to prove a negative. All he has to do is tell us where he got
that factual information from.

jc: Asking Roland to provide factual information about the absence of
corruption during the Portuguese regime (esp the last few decades of their
regime) in Goa = asking him to prove the negative.

==

Santosh Helekar:: Given the fact that there was no freedom of the press in
Goa during the Portuguese rule, most of the claims made by lay people are
hearsay, and for the most part, wrong.

jc: This is a specious method of arguing a point. There was ALL kinds of
information about Goa available in Bombay, some accurate some invented. Did
any information of civil service corruption turn up in Bombay? Did any
information of that corruption turn up on Dec 20, 1961 or thereafter? The
civil service was mainly Goan. They did not go anywhere. Anybody complained
about corruption involving those Goan civil servants? Some might still be
alive. Check with them na!

BTW: I wonder if my reference to 'Goans' was construed appropriately.

==

Santosh Helekar: As for Josebab's understanding below, we know very well
that in the post-Portuguese Goa many of the administrative officials who
are known to be crooked and corrupt are also Goans,

jc: Is it or Is it not because the SYSTEM (that Roland was referring to)
did not tolerate corruption ? I am not really up to date with the events
of 2014. Personally, I have no evidence at hand to state that any officials
are corrupt in 2014. But, for now, I will accept Santoshbab's view on
matters as they exist in 2014. He may wish to opine IF the present SYSTEM
tolerates corruption.

===

Santosh Helekar: My observation has been that corruption and crookedness
does not have anything do with education, race
or religion.

jc: I almost agree. My belief is that it was the SYSTEM which played an
important positive or negative role...along with the Culture of Zhalacch
Pahije and Chalta hai.

jc
Mervyn Lobo
2014-04-04 23:41:34 UTC
Permalink
This one?is hilarious.
?
The topic is political crooks?
?
Political crooks? Well,?the?entire?Portuguese colonial system was set up for only one purpose i.e. to?harvest the wealth of Goa and transfer it to Portugal.
?
The Portuguese did this well for 450 years. Now someone claims this is not a politically crooked system??
?
Well, then I guess I have to?raise my hat to the Portuguese education system in Goa. 50 years after they were kicked out, people still are of the opinion that Salazar's regime?in Goa comprised of benevolent, upstanding young men whose job was to spread political freedom in Goa.
?
Mervyn
BTW, I guess it is a real challenge today to decide whom to vote for when one?candidate?is a crook and the other is not?
??
?
From: roland.francis <roland.francis at ymail.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 10:57:01 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
A very recent Goa news item says that one-third of Goa candidates have criminal records.
I am not anti Indian or pro Portuguese or anything of the sort but knowing that in Potuguese Goa there was no crook in the administration (the system just didn't allow it) and now learning that ?fully one third of Goan politicians are crooks, a result of the Indian dispensation, one is tempted to ask VMinGoa or his other avatar VMdeMalar whether "better" Indian education or "inferior" Potuguese education had anything to do with this?
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
Jose Colaco
2014-04-05 10:05:06 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 4, 2014, at 7:41 PM, Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca> wrote:
"This one is hilarious. The topic is political crooks? Political crooks? Well, the entire Portuguese colonial system was set up for only one purpose i.e. to harvest the wealth of Goa and transfer it to Portugal. "

COMMENT:

"This" one, indeed is hilarious.

You are a finance man. You know that when Wealth is transferred from A (say Goa) to B (say Portugal), one would expect it to show up somewhere that B became wealthy.

Now, I know that Mervyn will demonstrate that.

jc
Mervyn Lobo
2014-04-06 00:58:33 UTC
Permalink
You are a finance man. You know that when Wealth is transferred from A (say Goa)?
to B (say Portugal), one would expect it to show up somewhere that B became wealthy.
Now,? I know that Mervyn will demonstrate that.
jc
--------------------------------

Doc,
One of my lecturers in Dar-es-Salaam was the?Guyanese historian Walter Rodney. Here is a quote from him. "The decisiveness of the short period of colonialism and its negative consequences for Africa spring mainly from the fact that Africa lost power. Power is the ultimate determinant in human society, being basic to the relations within any group and between groups. It implies
the ability to defend one's interests and if necessary to impose one's will by any means available. In relations between peoples, the question of power determines manoeuvrability in bargaining, the extent to which one people respect the interests of another, and eventually the extent to which a people survive as a physical and cultural entity. When one society finds itself forced to relinquish power entirely to another society that in itself is a form of underdevelopment ... During the centuries of pre-colonial trade, some control over social political and economic life was retained in Africa, in spite of the disadvantageous commerce with Europeans. That little control over internal matters disappeared under colonialism. Colonialism went much further than trade. It meant a tendency towards direct appropriation by Europeans of the social institutions within Africa. Africans ceased to set indigenous cultural goals and standards, and lost full command of
training young members of the society. Those were undoubtedly major steps backwards ... Colonialism was not merely a system of exploitation, but one whose essential purpose was to repatriate the profits to the so-called 'mother country'. From an African view-point, that amounted to consistent expatriation of surplus produced by African labour out of African resources. It meant the development of Europe as part of the same dialectical process in which Africa was underdeveloped."


Mr. Rodney may or may not be correct but I am sure he sows the seeds of doubt in even the most ardent non-believer, that colonialism did not benefit the colonized. ? ?


As for your question on where the wealth showed up, I am of the opinion it was made just to annoy certain people :-) Nevertheless, I have been repeating as often as I can that if you want to get to the real cause of any event, your best bet is follow the money. The money or wealth in this case was transferred (and this is not to annoy anyone) in the form of gold. Gold moved from Goa to Portugal and not in the opposite direction, believe it or not.?


Lastly, I am told that people who own gold take pains to not disclose where it is. When required, they liquidate part of the same and build houses, castles or business empires. I am sure you will agree with me that there are much better houses, castles and business empires in Portugal, than in Goa.


Political crooks?


Mervyn1650Lobo
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2014-04-08 03:13:26 UTC
Permalink
re: this from me to Mervyn Lobo: ""You are a finance man. You know that
when Wealth is transferred from A (say Goa) to B (say Portugal), one would
expect it to show up somewhere that B became wealthy."

Mervyn Lobo responded: One of my lecturers in Dar-es-Salaam was the
Guyanese historian Walter Rodney. Here is a quote from him. "The
decisiveness of the short period of colonialism and its negative
consequences for Africa spring mainly from the fact that Africa lost power.

Mr. Rodney may or may not be correct but I am sure he sows the seeds of
doubt in even the most ardent non-believer, that colonialism did not
benefit the colonized.

As for your question on where the wealth showed up...if you want to get to
the real cause of any event, your best bet is follow the money. The money
or wealth in this case was transferred in the form of gold. Gold moved from
Goa to Portugal and not in the opposite direction, believe it or not.


COMMENT:

I wish you knew more about Goa and its wealth.

Yes ....follow the money and you will find it exactly where you are not
looking. Perhaps, because you are quite unaware.

I do not know which Gold from which part of Goa went to which chaps in
Portugal.

Walter Rodney (who I consider the Guyanese Pio) was right, partially wrong
and wrong in the above quoted.

Right: Colonialism does weaken the colonized

Partially Wrong: Colonialism (esp European colonialism) did benefit the
colonized

Wrong: The period of colonialism was/is not short. It existed way before
the Europeans came to Africa and exists even after they left.

jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2014-04-08 03:13:26 UTC
Permalink
re: this from me to Mervyn Lobo: ""You are a finance man. You know that
when Wealth is transferred from A (say Goa) to B (say Portugal), one would
expect it to show up somewhere that B became wealthy."

Mervyn Lobo responded: One of my lecturers in Dar-es-Salaam was the
Guyanese historian Walter Rodney. Here is a quote from him. "The
decisiveness of the short period of colonialism and its negative
consequences for Africa spring mainly from the fact that Africa lost power.

Mr. Rodney may or may not be correct but I am sure he sows the seeds of
doubt in even the most ardent non-believer, that colonialism did not
benefit the colonized.

As for your question on where the wealth showed up...if you want to get to
the real cause of any event, your best bet is follow the money. The money
or wealth in this case was transferred in the form of gold. Gold moved from
Goa to Portugal and not in the opposite direction, believe it or not.


COMMENT:

I wish you knew more about Goa and its wealth.

Yes ....follow the money and you will find it exactly where you are not
looking. Perhaps, because you are quite unaware.

I do not know which Gold from which part of Goa went to which chaps in
Portugal.

Walter Rodney (who I consider the Guyanese Pio) was right, partially wrong
and wrong in the above quoted.

Right: Colonialism does weaken the colonized

Partially Wrong: Colonialism (esp European colonialism) did benefit the
colonized

Wrong: The period of colonialism was/is not short. It existed way before
the Europeans came to Africa and exists even after they left.

jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2014-04-08 03:13:26 UTC
Permalink
re: this from me to Mervyn Lobo: ""You are a finance man. You know that
when Wealth is transferred from A (say Goa) to B (say Portugal), one would
expect it to show up somewhere that B became wealthy."

Mervyn Lobo responded: One of my lecturers in Dar-es-Salaam was the
Guyanese historian Walter Rodney. Here is a quote from him. "The
decisiveness of the short period of colonialism and its negative
consequences for Africa spring mainly from the fact that Africa lost power.

Mr. Rodney may or may not be correct but I am sure he sows the seeds of
doubt in even the most ardent non-believer, that colonialism did not
benefit the colonized.

As for your question on where the wealth showed up...if you want to get to
the real cause of any event, your best bet is follow the money. The money
or wealth in this case was transferred in the form of gold. Gold moved from
Goa to Portugal and not in the opposite direction, believe it or not.


COMMENT:

I wish you knew more about Goa and its wealth.

Yes ....follow the money and you will find it exactly where you are not
looking. Perhaps, because you are quite unaware.

I do not know which Gold from which part of Goa went to which chaps in
Portugal.

Walter Rodney (who I consider the Guyanese Pio) was right, partially wrong
and wrong in the above quoted.

Right: Colonialism does weaken the colonized

Partially Wrong: Colonialism (esp European colonialism) did benefit the
colonized

Wrong: The period of colonialism was/is not short. It existed way before
the Europeans came to Africa and exists even after they left.

jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2014-04-08 03:13:26 UTC
Permalink
re: this from me to Mervyn Lobo: ""You are a finance man. You know that
when Wealth is transferred from A (say Goa) to B (say Portugal), one would
expect it to show up somewhere that B became wealthy."

Mervyn Lobo responded: One of my lecturers in Dar-es-Salaam was the
Guyanese historian Walter Rodney. Here is a quote from him. "The
decisiveness of the short period of colonialism and its negative
consequences for Africa spring mainly from the fact that Africa lost power.

Mr. Rodney may or may not be correct but I am sure he sows the seeds of
doubt in even the most ardent non-believer, that colonialism did not
benefit the colonized.

As for your question on where the wealth showed up...if you want to get to
the real cause of any event, your best bet is follow the money. The money
or wealth in this case was transferred in the form of gold. Gold moved from
Goa to Portugal and not in the opposite direction, believe it or not.


COMMENT:

I wish you knew more about Goa and its wealth.

Yes ....follow the money and you will find it exactly where you are not
looking. Perhaps, because you are quite unaware.

I do not know which Gold from which part of Goa went to which chaps in
Portugal.

Walter Rodney (who I consider the Guyanese Pio) was right, partially wrong
and wrong in the above quoted.

Right: Colonialism does weaken the colonized

Partially Wrong: Colonialism (esp European colonialism) did benefit the
colonized

Wrong: The period of colonialism was/is not short. It existed way before
the Europeans came to Africa and exists even after they left.

jc
Mervyn Lobo
2014-04-06 00:58:33 UTC
Permalink
You are a finance man. You know that when Wealth is transferred from A (say Goa)?
to B (say Portugal), one would expect it to show up somewhere that B became wealthy.
Now,? I know that Mervyn will demonstrate that.
jc
--------------------------------

Doc,
One of my lecturers in Dar-es-Salaam was the?Guyanese historian Walter Rodney. Here is a quote from him. "The decisiveness of the short period of colonialism and its negative consequences for Africa spring mainly from the fact that Africa lost power. Power is the ultimate determinant in human society, being basic to the relations within any group and between groups. It implies
the ability to defend one's interests and if necessary to impose one's will by any means available. In relations between peoples, the question of power determines manoeuvrability in bargaining, the extent to which one people respect the interests of another, and eventually the extent to which a people survive as a physical and cultural entity. When one society finds itself forced to relinquish power entirely to another society that in itself is a form of underdevelopment ... During the centuries of pre-colonial trade, some control over social political and economic life was retained in Africa, in spite of the disadvantageous commerce with Europeans. That little control over internal matters disappeared under colonialism. Colonialism went much further than trade. It meant a tendency towards direct appropriation by Europeans of the social institutions within Africa. Africans ceased to set indigenous cultural goals and standards, and lost full command of
training young members of the society. Those were undoubtedly major steps backwards ... Colonialism was not merely a system of exploitation, but one whose essential purpose was to repatriate the profits to the so-called 'mother country'. From an African view-point, that amounted to consistent expatriation of surplus produced by African labour out of African resources. It meant the development of Europe as part of the same dialectical process in which Africa was underdeveloped."


Mr. Rodney may or may not be correct but I am sure he sows the seeds of doubt in even the most ardent non-believer, that colonialism did not benefit the colonized. ? ?


As for your question on where the wealth showed up, I am of the opinion it was made just to annoy certain people :-) Nevertheless, I have been repeating as often as I can that if you want to get to the real cause of any event, your best bet is follow the money. The money or wealth in this case was transferred (and this is not to annoy anyone) in the form of gold. Gold moved from Goa to Portugal and not in the opposite direction, believe it or not.?


Lastly, I am told that people who own gold take pains to not disclose where it is. When required, they liquidate part of the same and build houses, castles or business empires. I am sure you will agree with me that there are much better houses, castles and business empires in Portugal, than in Goa.


Political crooks?


Mervyn1650Lobo
Mervyn Lobo
2014-04-06 00:58:33 UTC
Permalink
You are a finance man. You know that when Wealth is transferred from A (say Goa)?
to B (say Portugal), one would expect it to show up somewhere that B became wealthy.
Now,? I know that Mervyn will demonstrate that.
jc
--------------------------------

Doc,
One of my lecturers in Dar-es-Salaam was the?Guyanese historian Walter Rodney. Here is a quote from him. "The decisiveness of the short period of colonialism and its negative consequences for Africa spring mainly from the fact that Africa lost power. Power is the ultimate determinant in human society, being basic to the relations within any group and between groups. It implies
the ability to defend one's interests and if necessary to impose one's will by any means available. In relations between peoples, the question of power determines manoeuvrability in bargaining, the extent to which one people respect the interests of another, and eventually the extent to which a people survive as a physical and cultural entity. When one society finds itself forced to relinquish power entirely to another society that in itself is a form of underdevelopment ... During the centuries of pre-colonial trade, some control over social political and economic life was retained in Africa, in spite of the disadvantageous commerce with Europeans. That little control over internal matters disappeared under colonialism. Colonialism went much further than trade. It meant a tendency towards direct appropriation by Europeans of the social institutions within Africa. Africans ceased to set indigenous cultural goals and standards, and lost full command of
training young members of the society. Those were undoubtedly major steps backwards ... Colonialism was not merely a system of exploitation, but one whose essential purpose was to repatriate the profits to the so-called 'mother country'. From an African view-point, that amounted to consistent expatriation of surplus produced by African labour out of African resources. It meant the development of Europe as part of the same dialectical process in which Africa was underdeveloped."


Mr. Rodney may or may not be correct but I am sure he sows the seeds of doubt in even the most ardent non-believer, that colonialism did not benefit the colonized. ? ?


As for your question on where the wealth showed up, I am of the opinion it was made just to annoy certain people :-) Nevertheless, I have been repeating as often as I can that if you want to get to the real cause of any event, your best bet is follow the money. The money or wealth in this case was transferred (and this is not to annoy anyone) in the form of gold. Gold moved from Goa to Portugal and not in the opposite direction, believe it or not.?


Lastly, I am told that people who own gold take pains to not disclose where it is. When required, they liquidate part of the same and build houses, castles or business empires. I am sure you will agree with me that there are much better houses, castles and business empires in Portugal, than in Goa.


Political crooks?


Mervyn1650Lobo
Mervyn Lobo
2014-04-06 00:58:33 UTC
Permalink
You are a finance man. You know that when Wealth is transferred from A (say Goa)?
to B (say Portugal), one would expect it to show up somewhere that B became wealthy.
Now,? I know that Mervyn will demonstrate that.
jc
--------------------------------

Doc,
One of my lecturers in Dar-es-Salaam was the?Guyanese historian Walter Rodney. Here is a quote from him. "The decisiveness of the short period of colonialism and its negative consequences for Africa spring mainly from the fact that Africa lost power. Power is the ultimate determinant in human society, being basic to the relations within any group and between groups. It implies
the ability to defend one's interests and if necessary to impose one's will by any means available. In relations between peoples, the question of power determines manoeuvrability in bargaining, the extent to which one people respect the interests of another, and eventually the extent to which a people survive as a physical and cultural entity. When one society finds itself forced to relinquish power entirely to another society that in itself is a form of underdevelopment ... During the centuries of pre-colonial trade, some control over social political and economic life was retained in Africa, in spite of the disadvantageous commerce with Europeans. That little control over internal matters disappeared under colonialism. Colonialism went much further than trade. It meant a tendency towards direct appropriation by Europeans of the social institutions within Africa. Africans ceased to set indigenous cultural goals and standards, and lost full command of
training young members of the society. Those were undoubtedly major steps backwards ... Colonialism was not merely a system of exploitation, but one whose essential purpose was to repatriate the profits to the so-called 'mother country'. From an African view-point, that amounted to consistent expatriation of surplus produced by African labour out of African resources. It meant the development of Europe as part of the same dialectical process in which Africa was underdeveloped."


Mr. Rodney may or may not be correct but I am sure he sows the seeds of doubt in even the most ardent non-believer, that colonialism did not benefit the colonized. ? ?


As for your question on where the wealth showed up, I am of the opinion it was made just to annoy certain people :-) Nevertheless, I have been repeating as often as I can that if you want to get to the real cause of any event, your best bet is follow the money. The money or wealth in this case was transferred (and this is not to annoy anyone) in the form of gold. Gold moved from Goa to Portugal and not in the opposite direction, believe it or not.?


Lastly, I am told that people who own gold take pains to not disclose where it is. When required, they liquidate part of the same and build houses, castles or business empires. I am sure you will agree with me that there are much better houses, castles and business empires in Portugal, than in Goa.


Political crooks?


Mervyn1650Lobo
Jose Colaco
2014-04-05 10:05:06 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 4, 2014, at 7:41 PM, Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca> wrote:
"This one is hilarious. The topic is political crooks? Political crooks? Well, the entire Portuguese colonial system was set up for only one purpose i.e. to harvest the wealth of Goa and transfer it to Portugal. "

COMMENT:

"This" one, indeed is hilarious.

You are a finance man. You know that when Wealth is transferred from A (say Goa) to B (say Portugal), one would expect it to show up somewhere that B became wealthy.

Now, I know that Mervyn will demonstrate that.

jc
Jose Colaco
2014-04-05 10:05:06 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 4, 2014, at 7:41 PM, Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca> wrote:
"This one is hilarious. The topic is political crooks? Political crooks? Well, the entire Portuguese colonial system was set up for only one purpose i.e. to harvest the wealth of Goa and transfer it to Portugal. "

COMMENT:

"This" one, indeed is hilarious.

You are a finance man. You know that when Wealth is transferred from A (say Goa) to B (say Portugal), one would expect it to show up somewhere that B became wealthy.

Now, I know that Mervyn will demonstrate that.

jc
Jose Colaco
2014-04-05 10:05:06 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 4, 2014, at 7:41 PM, Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca> wrote:
"This one is hilarious. The topic is political crooks? Political crooks? Well, the entire Portuguese colonial system was set up for only one purpose i.e. to harvest the wealth of Goa and transfer it to Portugal. "

COMMENT:

"This" one, indeed is hilarious.

You are a finance man. You know that when Wealth is transferred from A (say Goa) to B (say Portugal), one would expect it to show up somewhere that B became wealthy.

Now, I know that Mervyn will demonstrate that.

jc
Bernado Colaco
2014-04-05 05:16:28 UTC
Permalink
The Salazar system did not allow the crookery.?Your bharat systems is all over the place. Now a genocidist is on the verge of becoming the Prime Minister.
?
BC
?
How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-05 21:12:41 UTC
Permalink
I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa.

So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese "system" from published sources documented in real time as the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples later, if needed.

Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the wholesale manufacturing
of rice manifests with over-inflated figures.?

So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end?

For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.?

Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes.

The second corruption scandal was called the "Bogus Rice Deal". It took place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira, the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias. Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan style as always.

That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide them.

Cheers,

Santosh
Jose and Santosh babs,
JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I
could have done.
WHAT SYSTEM Santosh??
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the
economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal,
illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.
Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced
like in your scientific world in order to be believed. ?Otherwise one expresses
incredulity like you have done.?
You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or
experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014? 8:09 AM? (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere
mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2014-04-06 00:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Dear Roland,

What my dear Santoshbab has proved, beyond a scintilla of doubt, is that
Goa under the Portuguese was just as corrupt as Goa under the present
dispensation.

Would you not agree?

Would you not also agree that one had to bribe one's way for every little
thing ....unlike now.

As far as I am concerned, I am absolutely convinced.

Now ...I plan to research a new topic (in the spirit of Easter): The
Resurrection of the Saligao tower.

best

jc
Post by Santosh Helekar
I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in
contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese
administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty
nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa.
So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in
the Portuguese "system" from published sources documented in real time as
the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with
names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples
later, if needed.
Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's
staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first
one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds
of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who
were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice
Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in
Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report
indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely
the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants
had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and
violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the
government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud
network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the
wholesale manufacturing
of rice manifests with over-inflated figures.
So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese
administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end?
For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.
Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district
officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General
went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes
was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino
Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes.
The second corruption scandal was called the "Bogus Rice Deal". It took
place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon
government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be
the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira,
the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias.
Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan
style as always.
That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of
crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide
them.
Cheers,
Santosh
On Friday, April 4, 2014 12:31 PM, roland.francis <
Jose and Santosh babs,
JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I
could have done.
WHAT SYSTEM Santosh?
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and
the
economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal,
illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.
Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and
experienced
like in your scientific world in order to be believed. Otherwise one
expresses
incredulity like you have done.
You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it
or
experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014 8:09 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere
mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
On Apr 4, 2014, at 1:12 AM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese
administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe
it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from
the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes
and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to
live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2014-04-06 00:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Dear Roland,

What my dear Santoshbab has proved, beyond a scintilla of doubt, is that
Goa under the Portuguese was just as corrupt as Goa under the present
dispensation.

Would you not agree?

Would you not also agree that one had to bribe one's way for every little
thing ....unlike now.

As far as I am concerned, I am absolutely convinced.

Now ...I plan to research a new topic (in the spirit of Easter): The
Resurrection of the Saligao tower.

best

jc
Post by Santosh Helekar
I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in
contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese
administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty
nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa.
So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in
the Portuguese "system" from published sources documented in real time as
the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with
names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples
later, if needed.
Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's
staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first
one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds
of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who
were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice
Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in
Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report
indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely
the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants
had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and
violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the
government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud
network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the
wholesale manufacturing
of rice manifests with over-inflated figures.
So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese
administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end?
For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.
Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district
officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General
went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes
was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino
Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes.
The second corruption scandal was called the "Bogus Rice Deal". It took
place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon
government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be
the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira,
the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias.
Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan
style as always.
That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of
crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide
them.
Cheers,
Santosh
On Friday, April 4, 2014 12:31 PM, roland.francis <
Jose and Santosh babs,
JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I
could have done.
WHAT SYSTEM Santosh?
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and
the
economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal,
illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.
Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and
experienced
like in your scientific world in order to be believed. Otherwise one
expresses
incredulity like you have done.
You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it
or
experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014 8:09 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere
mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
On Apr 4, 2014, at 1:12 AM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese
administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe
it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from
the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes
and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to
live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2014-04-06 00:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Dear Roland,

What my dear Santoshbab has proved, beyond a scintilla of doubt, is that
Goa under the Portuguese was just as corrupt as Goa under the present
dispensation.

Would you not agree?

Would you not also agree that one had to bribe one's way for every little
thing ....unlike now.

As far as I am concerned, I am absolutely convinced.

Now ...I plan to research a new topic (in the spirit of Easter): The
Resurrection of the Saligao tower.

best

jc
Post by Santosh Helekar
I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in
contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese
administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty
nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa.
So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in
the Portuguese "system" from published sources documented in real time as
the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with
names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples
later, if needed.
Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's
staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first
one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds
of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who
were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice
Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in
Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report
indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely
the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants
had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and
violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the
government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud
network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the
wholesale manufacturing
of rice manifests with over-inflated figures.
So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese
administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end?
For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.
Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district
officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General
went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes
was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino
Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes.
The second corruption scandal was called the "Bogus Rice Deal". It took
place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon
government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be
the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira,
the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias.
Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan
style as always.
That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of
crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide
them.
Cheers,
Santosh
On Friday, April 4, 2014 12:31 PM, roland.francis <
Jose and Santosh babs,
JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I
could have done.
WHAT SYSTEM Santosh?
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and
the
economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal,
illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.
Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and
experienced
like in your scientific world in order to be believed. Otherwise one
expresses
incredulity like you have done.
You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it
or
experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014 8:09 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere
mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
On Apr 4, 2014, at 1:12 AM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese
administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe
it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from
the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes
and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to
live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2014-04-06 00:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Dear Roland,

What my dear Santoshbab has proved, beyond a scintilla of doubt, is that
Goa under the Portuguese was just as corrupt as Goa under the present
dispensation.

Would you not agree?

Would you not also agree that one had to bribe one's way for every little
thing ....unlike now.

As far as I am concerned, I am absolutely convinced.

Now ...I plan to research a new topic (in the spirit of Easter): The
Resurrection of the Saligao tower.

best

jc
Post by Santosh Helekar
I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in
contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese
administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty
nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa.
So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in
the Portuguese "system" from published sources documented in real time as
the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with
names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples
later, if needed.
Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's
staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first
one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds
of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who
were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice
Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in
Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report
indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely
the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants
had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and
violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the
government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud
network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the
wholesale manufacturing
of rice manifests with over-inflated figures.
So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese
administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end?
For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.
Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district
officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General
went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes
was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino
Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes.
The second corruption scandal was called the "Bogus Rice Deal". It took
place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon
government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be
the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira,
the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias.
Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan
style as always.
That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of
crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide
them.
Cheers,
Santosh
On Friday, April 4, 2014 12:31 PM, roland.francis <
Jose and Santosh babs,
JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I
could have done.
WHAT SYSTEM Santosh?
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and
the
economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal,
illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.
Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and
experienced
like in your scientific world in order to be believed. Otherwise one
expresses
incredulity like you have done.
You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it
or
experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014 8:09 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere
mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
On Apr 4, 2014, at 1:12 AM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese
administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe
it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from
the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes
and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to
live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
roland.francis
2014-04-05 22:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice manifests are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would hesitate to tell this to my own brother (if I had one).

What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over- ?manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or perhaps busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555 cigarettes and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came in from Belgaum and Karwar?

Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the Portuguese in a poor light.

Roland.


Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Date: 04-05-2014 5:12 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>,"Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>,"jc>" <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Fwd: Re: Incubator For Political Crooks?

I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa.

So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese "system" from published sources documented in real time as the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples later, if needed.

Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the wholesale manufacturing
of rice manifests with over-inflated figures.?

So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end?

For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.?

Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes.

The second corruption scandal was called the "Bogus Rice Deal". It took place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira, the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias. Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan style as always.

That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide them.

Cheers,

Santosh
Jose and Santosh babs,
JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I
could have done.
WHAT SYSTEM Santosh??
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the
economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal,
illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.
Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced
like in your scientific world in order to be believed. ?Otherwise one expresses
incredulity like you have done.?
You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or
experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014? 8:09 AM? (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere
mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-08 05:07:48 UTC
Permalink
I just noticed these "unbiased" responses from Roland on Goanet. Looks?like he has different levels or standards of corruption and?crookedness in his unbiased mind. Illegal profiteering from massive?fraud and forgery does not reach the threshold if it happens during?the Portuguese rule. The same for theft of Rs. 35 lakhs from the?taxpayer's money.?

But how about torture and murder in police custody, and falsification?of the autopsy report by the government? What do you think? Would it?measure up??

I for one would really like to know what his "unbiased" threshold for?corruption and crookedness is in the Portuguese "system".?

It also appears
that names of Portuguese public officials are special. They get
sullied if reported by the press in connection with allegations of
public corruption. Perhaps, sanctification and worship of the
Portuguese administrators does not amount to being pro-Portuguese.

Cheers,?

Santosh?
Post by roland.francis
Post by roland.francis
Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice manifests
are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would hesitate to
tell this to my own brother (if I had one).
What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over-
?manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or perhaps
busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555 cigarettes
and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came in
from Belgaum and Karwar?
Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the
Portuguese in a poor light.
Roland.
?
Over to you Senhor Gabriel de Figuereido. Don't let this sully against Senhor Ismail Gracias another >Lotlecar go unanswered.
Roland
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-09 20:04:03 UTC
Permalink
I just noticed these "unbiased" responses from Roland on Goanet. Looks like he has different levels or standards of corruption and crookedness in his unbiased mind. Illegal profiteering from massive fraud and forgery does not reach the threshold if it happens during the Portuguese rule. The same for theft of Rs. 35 lakhs from the taxpayer's money.?

But how about torture and murder in police custody, and falsification of the autopsy report by the government? What do you think? Would it measure up??

I for one would really like to know what his "unbiased" threshold for corruption and crookedness is in the Portuguese "system". It also appears
that names of Portuguese public officials are special. They get
sullied if reported by the press in connection with allegations of
public corruption. Perhaps, sanctification and worship of the
Portuguese administrators does not amount to being pro-Portuguese.?

Cheers,?

Santosh?


On Monday, April 7, 2014 10:46 AM, roland.francis
Post by Santosh Helekar
Post by roland.francis
Post by roland.francis
Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice
manifests
Post by roland.francis
are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would
hesitate to
Post by roland.francis
tell this to my own brother (if I had one).
What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over-
?manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or
perhaps
Post by roland.francis
busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555
cigarettes
Post by roland.francis
and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came
in
Post by roland.francis
from Belgaum and Karwar?
Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the
Portuguese in a poor light.
Roland.
Over to you Senhor Gabriel de Figuereido. Don't let this sully against
Senhor Ismail Gracias another >Lotlecar go unanswered.
Post by roland.francis
Roland
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-09 20:04:03 UTC
Permalink
I just noticed these "unbiased" responses from Roland on Goanet. Looks like he has different levels or standards of corruption and crookedness in his unbiased mind. Illegal profiteering from massive fraud and forgery does not reach the threshold if it happens during the Portuguese rule. The same for theft of Rs. 35 lakhs from the taxpayer's money.?

But how about torture and murder in police custody, and falsification of the autopsy report by the government? What do you think? Would it measure up??

I for one would really like to know what his "unbiased" threshold for corruption and crookedness is in the Portuguese "system". It also appears
that names of Portuguese public officials are special. They get
sullied if reported by the press in connection with allegations of
public corruption. Perhaps, sanctification and worship of the
Portuguese administrators does not amount to being pro-Portuguese.?

Cheers,?

Santosh?


On Monday, April 7, 2014 10:46 AM, roland.francis
Post by Santosh Helekar
Post by roland.francis
Post by roland.francis
Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice
manifests
Post by roland.francis
are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would
hesitate to
Post by roland.francis
tell this to my own brother (if I had one).
What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over-
?manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or
perhaps
Post by roland.francis
busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555
cigarettes
Post by roland.francis
and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came
in
Post by roland.francis
from Belgaum and Karwar?
Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the
Portuguese in a poor light.
Roland.
Over to you Senhor Gabriel de Figuereido. Don't let this sully against
Senhor Ismail Gracias another >Lotlecar go unanswered.
Post by roland.francis
Roland
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-09 20:04:03 UTC
Permalink
I just noticed these "unbiased" responses from Roland on Goanet. Looks like he has different levels or standards of corruption and crookedness in his unbiased mind. Illegal profiteering from massive fraud and forgery does not reach the threshold if it happens during the Portuguese rule. The same for theft of Rs. 35 lakhs from the taxpayer's money.?

But how about torture and murder in police custody, and falsification of the autopsy report by the government? What do you think? Would it measure up??

I for one would really like to know what his "unbiased" threshold for corruption and crookedness is in the Portuguese "system". It also appears
that names of Portuguese public officials are special. They get
sullied if reported by the press in connection with allegations of
public corruption. Perhaps, sanctification and worship of the
Portuguese administrators does not amount to being pro-Portuguese.?

Cheers,?

Santosh?


On Monday, April 7, 2014 10:46 AM, roland.francis
Post by Santosh Helekar
Post by roland.francis
Post by roland.francis
Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice
manifests
Post by roland.francis
are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would
hesitate to
Post by roland.francis
tell this to my own brother (if I had one).
What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over-
?manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or
perhaps
Post by roland.francis
busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555
cigarettes
Post by roland.francis
and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came
in
Post by roland.francis
from Belgaum and Karwar?
Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the
Portuguese in a poor light.
Roland.
Over to you Senhor Gabriel de Figuereido. Don't let this sully against
Senhor Ismail Gracias another >Lotlecar go unanswered.
Post by roland.francis
Roland
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-08 05:07:48 UTC
Permalink
I just noticed these "unbiased" responses from Roland on Goanet. Looks?like he has different levels or standards of corruption and?crookedness in his unbiased mind. Illegal profiteering from massive?fraud and forgery does not reach the threshold if it happens during?the Portuguese rule. The same for theft of Rs. 35 lakhs from the?taxpayer's money.?

But how about torture and murder in police custody, and falsification?of the autopsy report by the government? What do you think? Would it?measure up??

I for one would really like to know what his "unbiased" threshold for?corruption and crookedness is in the Portuguese "system".?

It also appears
that names of Portuguese public officials are special. They get
sullied if reported by the press in connection with allegations of
public corruption. Perhaps, sanctification and worship of the
Portuguese administrators does not amount to being pro-Portuguese.

Cheers,?

Santosh?
Post by roland.francis
Post by roland.francis
Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice manifests
are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would hesitate to
tell this to my own brother (if I had one).
What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over-
?manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or perhaps
busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555 cigarettes
and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came in
from Belgaum and Karwar?
Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the
Portuguese in a poor light.
Roland.
?
Over to you Senhor Gabriel de Figuereido. Don't let this sully against Senhor Ismail Gracias another >Lotlecar go unanswered.
Roland
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-08 05:07:48 UTC
Permalink
I just noticed these "unbiased" responses from Roland on Goanet. Looks?like he has different levels or standards of corruption and?crookedness in his unbiased mind. Illegal profiteering from massive?fraud and forgery does not reach the threshold if it happens during?the Portuguese rule. The same for theft of Rs. 35 lakhs from the?taxpayer's money.?

But how about torture and murder in police custody, and falsification?of the autopsy report by the government? What do you think? Would it?measure up??

I for one would really like to know what his "unbiased" threshold for?corruption and crookedness is in the Portuguese "system".?

It also appears
that names of Portuguese public officials are special. They get
sullied if reported by the press in connection with allegations of
public corruption. Perhaps, sanctification and worship of the
Portuguese administrators does not amount to being pro-Portuguese.

Cheers,?

Santosh?
Post by roland.francis
Post by roland.francis
Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice manifests
are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would hesitate to
tell this to my own brother (if I had one).
What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over-
?manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or perhaps
busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555 cigarettes
and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came in
from Belgaum and Karwar?
Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the
Portuguese in a poor light.
Roland.
?
Over to you Senhor Gabriel de Figuereido. Don't let this sully against Senhor Ismail Gracias another >Lotlecar go unanswered.
Roland
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-08 05:07:48 UTC
Permalink
I just noticed these "unbiased" responses from Roland on Goanet. Looks?like he has different levels or standards of corruption and?crookedness in his unbiased mind. Illegal profiteering from massive?fraud and forgery does not reach the threshold if it happens during?the Portuguese rule. The same for theft of Rs. 35 lakhs from the?taxpayer's money.?

But how about torture and murder in police custody, and falsification?of the autopsy report by the government? What do you think? Would it?measure up??

I for one would really like to know what his "unbiased" threshold for?corruption and crookedness is in the Portuguese "system".?

It also appears
that names of Portuguese public officials are special. They get
sullied if reported by the press in connection with allegations of
public corruption. Perhaps, sanctification and worship of the
Portuguese administrators does not amount to being pro-Portuguese.

Cheers,?

Santosh?
Post by roland.francis
Post by roland.francis
Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice manifests
are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would hesitate to
tell this to my own brother (if I had one).
What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over-
?manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or perhaps
busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555 cigarettes
and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came in
from Belgaum and Karwar?
Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the
Portuguese in a poor light.
Roland.
?
Over to you Senhor Gabriel de Figuereido. Don't let this sully against Senhor Ismail Gracias another >Lotlecar go unanswered.
Roland
roland.francis
2014-04-04 02:57:01 UTC
Permalink
A very recent Goa news item says that one-third of Goa candidates have criminal records.

I am not anti Indian or pro Portuguese or anything of the sort but knowing that in Potuguese Goa there was no crook in the administration (the system just didn't allow it) and now learning that ?fully one third of Goan politicians are crooks, a result of the Indian dispensation, one is tempted to ask VMinGoa or his other avatar VMdeMalar whether "better" Indian education or "inferior" Potuguese education had anything to do with this?

Roland.

Sent from Samsung Mobile
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-04 05:12:25 UTC
Permalink
How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?

Cheers,

Santosh
A very recent Goa news item says that one-third of Goa candidates have criminal
records.
I am not anti Indian or pro Portuguese or anything of the sort but knowing that
in Potuguese Goa there was no crook in the administration (the system just
didn't allow it) and now learning that ?fully one third of Goan politicians
are crooks, a result of the Indian dispensation, one is tempted to ask VMinGoa
or his other avatar VMdeMalar whether "better" Indian education or
"inferior" Potuguese education had anything to do with this?
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
Jose Colaco
2014-04-04 12:09:07 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 4, 2014, at 1:12 AM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:

"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?"


COMMENT:

While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the Portuguese administration that he knows of.

Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to prove/disprove the negative.

Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.

ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.

Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public administration to flourish?

Might be a good idea to prove it.

jc
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-04 15:12:34 UTC
Permalink
I like to consult contemporary or historical writings for facts about our history. I will retrieve from what I have read in the past the names and/or designations of public officials who were reported to be corrupt and crooked in the Portuguese administration when I have some free time later. But asking to substantiate a factual statement by Roland is not asking to prove a negative. All he has to do is tell us where he got that factual information from. Given the fact that there was no freedom of the press in Goa during the Portuguese rule, most of the claims made by lay people are hearsay, and for the most part, wrong. As for Josebab's understanding below, we know very well that in the post-Portuguese Goa many of the administrative officials who are known to be crooked and corrupt are also Goans, some of whom were educated during the Portuguese rule. My observation has been that corruption and crookedness does not have anything do with education, race
or religion.

Cheers,

Santosh
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-04 15:12:34 UTC
Permalink
I like to consult contemporary or historical writings for facts about our history. I will retrieve from what I have read in the past the names and/or designations of public officials who were reported to be corrupt and crooked in the Portuguese administration when I have some free time later. But asking to substantiate a factual statement by Roland is not asking to prove a negative. All he has to do is tell us where he got that factual information from. Given the fact that there was no freedom of the press in Goa during the Portuguese rule, most of the claims made by lay people are hearsay, and for the most part, wrong. As for Josebab's understanding below, we know very well that in the post-Portuguese Goa many of the administrative officials who are known to be crooked and corrupt are also Goans, some of whom were educated during the Portuguese rule. My observation has been that corruption and crookedness does not have anything do with education, race
or religion.

Cheers,

Santosh
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-04 15:12:34 UTC
Permalink
I like to consult contemporary or historical writings for facts about our history. I will retrieve from what I have read in the past the names and/or designations of public officials who were reported to be corrupt and crooked in the Portuguese administration when I have some free time later. But asking to substantiate a factual statement by Roland is not asking to prove a negative. All he has to do is tell us where he got that factual information from. Given the fact that there was no freedom of the press in Goa during the Portuguese rule, most of the claims made by lay people are hearsay, and for the most part, wrong. As for Josebab's understanding below, we know very well that in the post-Portuguese Goa many of the administrative officials who are known to be crooked and corrupt are also Goans, some of whom were educated during the Portuguese rule. My observation has been that corruption and crookedness does not have anything do with education, race
or religion.

Cheers,

Santosh
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
Jose Colaco
2014-04-04 12:09:07 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 4, 2014, at 1:12 AM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:

"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?"


COMMENT:

While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the Portuguese administration that he knows of.

Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to prove/disprove the negative.

Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.

ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.

Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public administration to flourish?

Might be a good idea to prove it.

jc
Jose Colaco
2014-04-04 12:09:07 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 4, 2014, at 1:12 AM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:

"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?"


COMMENT:

While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the Portuguese administration that he knows of.

Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to prove/disprove the negative.

Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.

ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.

Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public administration to flourish?

Might be a good idea to prove it.

jc
Mervyn Lobo
2014-04-04 23:41:34 UTC
Permalink
This one?is hilarious.
?
The topic is political crooks?
?
Political crooks? Well,?the?entire?Portuguese colonial system was set up for only one purpose i.e. to?harvest the wealth of Goa and transfer it to Portugal.
?
The Portuguese did this well for 450 years. Now someone claims this is not a politically crooked system??
?
Well, then I guess I have to?raise my hat to the Portuguese education system in Goa. 50 years after they were kicked out, people still are of the opinion that Salazar's regime?in Goa comprised of benevolent, upstanding young men whose job was to spread political freedom in Goa.
?
Mervyn
BTW, I guess it is a real challenge today to decide whom to vote for when one?candidate?is a crook and the other is not?
??
?
From: roland.francis <roland.francis at ymail.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 10:57:01 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
A very recent Goa news item says that one-third of Goa candidates have criminal records.
I am not anti Indian or pro Portuguese or anything of the sort but knowing that in Potuguese Goa there was no crook in the administration (the system just didn't allow it) and now learning that ?fully one third of Goan politicians are crooks, a result of the Indian dispensation, one is tempted to ask VMinGoa or his other avatar VMdeMalar whether "better" Indian education or "inferior" Potuguese education had anything to do with this?
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-04 05:12:25 UTC
Permalink
How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?

Cheers,

Santosh
A very recent Goa news item says that one-third of Goa candidates have criminal
records.
I am not anti Indian or pro Portuguese or anything of the sort but knowing that
in Potuguese Goa there was no crook in the administration (the system just
didn't allow it) and now learning that ?fully one third of Goan politicians
are crooks, a result of the Indian dispensation, one is tempted to ask VMinGoa
or his other avatar VMdeMalar whether "better" Indian education or
"inferior" Potuguese education had anything to do with this?
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
Mervyn Lobo
2014-04-04 23:41:34 UTC
Permalink
This one?is hilarious.
?
The topic is political crooks?
?
Political crooks? Well,?the?entire?Portuguese colonial system was set up for only one purpose i.e. to?harvest the wealth of Goa and transfer it to Portugal.
?
The Portuguese did this well for 450 years. Now someone claims this is not a politically crooked system??
?
Well, then I guess I have to?raise my hat to the Portuguese education system in Goa. 50 years after they were kicked out, people still are of the opinion that Salazar's regime?in Goa comprised of benevolent, upstanding young men whose job was to spread political freedom in Goa.
?
Mervyn
BTW, I guess it is a real challenge today to decide whom to vote for when one?candidate?is a crook and the other is not?
??
?
From: roland.francis <roland.francis at ymail.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 10:57:01 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
A very recent Goa news item says that one-third of Goa candidates have criminal records.
I am not anti Indian or pro Portuguese or anything of the sort but knowing that in Potuguese Goa there was no crook in the administration (the system just didn't allow it) and now learning that ?fully one third of Goan politicians are crooks, a result of the Indian dispensation, one is tempted to ask VMinGoa or his other avatar VMdeMalar whether "better" Indian education or "inferior" Potuguese education had anything to do with this?
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-04 05:12:25 UTC
Permalink
How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?

Cheers,

Santosh
A very recent Goa news item says that one-third of Goa candidates have criminal
records.
I am not anti Indian or pro Portuguese or anything of the sort but knowing that
in Potuguese Goa there was no crook in the administration (the system just
didn't allow it) and now learning that ?fully one third of Goan politicians
are crooks, a result of the Indian dispensation, one is tempted to ask VMinGoa
or his other avatar VMdeMalar whether "better" Indian education or
"inferior" Potuguese education had anything to do with this?
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
Mervyn Lobo
2014-04-04 23:41:34 UTC
Permalink
This one?is hilarious.
?
The topic is political crooks?
?
Political crooks? Well,?the?entire?Portuguese colonial system was set up for only one purpose i.e. to?harvest the wealth of Goa and transfer it to Portugal.
?
The Portuguese did this well for 450 years. Now someone claims this is not a politically crooked system??
?
Well, then I guess I have to?raise my hat to the Portuguese education system in Goa. 50 years after they were kicked out, people still are of the opinion that Salazar's regime?in Goa comprised of benevolent, upstanding young men whose job was to spread political freedom in Goa.
?
Mervyn
BTW, I guess it is a real challenge today to decide whom to vote for when one?candidate?is a crook and the other is not?
??
?
From: roland.francis <roland.francis at ymail.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 10:57:01 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
A very recent Goa news item says that one-third of Goa candidates have criminal records.
I am not anti Indian or pro Portuguese or anything of the sort but knowing that in Potuguese Goa there was no crook in the administration (the system just didn't allow it) and now learning that ?fully one third of Goan politicians are crooks, a result of the Indian dispensation, one is tempted to ask VMinGoa or his other avatar VMdeMalar whether "better" Indian education or "inferior" Potuguese education had anything to do with this?
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
roland.francis
2014-04-04 15:34:13 UTC
Permalink
Jose and Santosh babs,

JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I could have done.

WHAT SYSTEM Santosh??
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal, illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.

Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced like in your scientific world in order to be believed. ?Otherwise one expresses incredulity like you have done.?

You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.

Roland.


Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014 8:09 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?

On Apr 4, 2014, at 1:12 AM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:

"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?"


COMMENT:

While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the Portuguese administration that he knows of.

Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to prove/disprove the negative.

Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.

ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.

Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public administration to flourish?

Might be a good idea to prove it.

jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2014-04-04 23:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar:I like to consult contemporary or historical writings for
facts about our history. I will retrieve from what I have read in the past
the names and/or designations of public officials who were reported to be
corrupt and crooked in the Portuguese administration when I have some free
time later.

jc: Excellent step

==

Santosh Helekar:: But asking to substantiate a factual statement by Roland
is not asking to prove a negative. All he has to do is tell us where he got
that factual information from.

jc: Asking Roland to provide factual information about the absence of
corruption during the Portuguese regime (esp the last few decades of their
regime) in Goa = asking him to prove the negative.

==

Santosh Helekar:: Given the fact that there was no freedom of the press in
Goa during the Portuguese rule, most of the claims made by lay people are
hearsay, and for the most part, wrong.

jc: This is a specious method of arguing a point. There was ALL kinds of
information about Goa available in Bombay, some accurate some invented. Did
any information of civil service corruption turn up in Bombay? Did any
information of that corruption turn up on Dec 20, 1961 or thereafter? The
civil service was mainly Goan. They did not go anywhere. Anybody complained
about corruption involving those Goan civil servants? Some might still be
alive. Check with them na!

BTW: I wonder if my reference to 'Goans' was construed appropriately.

==

Santosh Helekar: As for Josebab's understanding below, we know very well
that in the post-Portuguese Goa many of the administrative officials who
are known to be crooked and corrupt are also Goans,

jc: Is it or Is it not because the SYSTEM (that Roland was referring to)
did not tolerate corruption ? I am not really up to date with the events
of 2014. Personally, I have no evidence at hand to state that any officials
are corrupt in 2014. But, for now, I will accept Santoshbab's view on
matters as they exist in 2014. He may wish to opine IF the present SYSTEM
tolerates corruption.

===

Santosh Helekar: My observation has been that corruption and crookedness
does not have anything do with education, race
or religion.

jc: I almost agree. My belief is that it was the SYSTEM which played an
important positive or negative role...along with the Culture of Zhalacch
Pahije and Chalta hai.

jc
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-05 21:12:41 UTC
Permalink
I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa.

So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese "system" from published sources documented in real time as the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples later, if needed.

Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the wholesale manufacturing
of rice manifests with over-inflated figures.?

So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end?

For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.?

Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes.

The second corruption scandal was called the "Bogus Rice Deal". It took place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira, the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias. Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan style as always.

That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide them.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by roland.francis
Jose and Santosh babs,
JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I could have done.
WHAT SYSTEM Santosh??
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the
economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal,
illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.
Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced
like in your scientific world in order to be believed. ?Otherwise one expresses
incredulity like you have done.?
You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or
experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014? 8:09 AM? (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere
mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2014-04-04 23:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar:I like to consult contemporary or historical writings for
facts about our history. I will retrieve from what I have read in the past
the names and/or designations of public officials who were reported to be
corrupt and crooked in the Portuguese administration when I have some free
time later.

jc: Excellent step

==

Santosh Helekar:: But asking to substantiate a factual statement by Roland
is not asking to prove a negative. All he has to do is tell us where he got
that factual information from.

jc: Asking Roland to provide factual information about the absence of
corruption during the Portuguese regime (esp the last few decades of their
regime) in Goa = asking him to prove the negative.

==

Santosh Helekar:: Given the fact that there was no freedom of the press in
Goa during the Portuguese rule, most of the claims made by lay people are
hearsay, and for the most part, wrong.

jc: This is a specious method of arguing a point. There was ALL kinds of
information about Goa available in Bombay, some accurate some invented. Did
any information of civil service corruption turn up in Bombay? Did any
information of that corruption turn up on Dec 20, 1961 or thereafter? The
civil service was mainly Goan. They did not go anywhere. Anybody complained
about corruption involving those Goan civil servants? Some might still be
alive. Check with them na!

BTW: I wonder if my reference to 'Goans' was construed appropriately.

==

Santosh Helekar: As for Josebab's understanding below, we know very well
that in the post-Portuguese Goa many of the administrative officials who
are known to be crooked and corrupt are also Goans,

jc: Is it or Is it not because the SYSTEM (that Roland was referring to)
did not tolerate corruption ? I am not really up to date with the events
of 2014. Personally, I have no evidence at hand to state that any officials
are corrupt in 2014. But, for now, I will accept Santoshbab's view on
matters as they exist in 2014. He may wish to opine IF the present SYSTEM
tolerates corruption.

===

Santosh Helekar: My observation has been that corruption and crookedness
does not have anything do with education, race
or religion.

jc: I almost agree. My belief is that it was the SYSTEM which played an
important positive or negative role...along with the Culture of Zhalacch
Pahije and Chalta hai.

jc
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-05 21:12:41 UTC
Permalink
I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa.

So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese "system" from published sources documented in real time as the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples later, if needed.

Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the wholesale manufacturing
of rice manifests with over-inflated figures.?

So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end?

For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.?

Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes.

The second corruption scandal was called the "Bogus Rice Deal". It took place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira, the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias. Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan style as always.

That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide them.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by roland.francis
Jose and Santosh babs,
JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I could have done.
WHAT SYSTEM Santosh??
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the
economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal,
illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.
Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced
like in your scientific world in order to be believed. ?Otherwise one expresses
incredulity like you have done.?
You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or
experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014? 8:09 AM? (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere
mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2014-04-04 23:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar:I like to consult contemporary or historical writings for
facts about our history. I will retrieve from what I have read in the past
the names and/or designations of public officials who were reported to be
corrupt and crooked in the Portuguese administration when I have some free
time later.

jc: Excellent step

==

Santosh Helekar:: But asking to substantiate a factual statement by Roland
is not asking to prove a negative. All he has to do is tell us where he got
that factual information from.

jc: Asking Roland to provide factual information about the absence of
corruption during the Portuguese regime (esp the last few decades of their
regime) in Goa = asking him to prove the negative.

==

Santosh Helekar:: Given the fact that there was no freedom of the press in
Goa during the Portuguese rule, most of the claims made by lay people are
hearsay, and for the most part, wrong.

jc: This is a specious method of arguing a point. There was ALL kinds of
information about Goa available in Bombay, some accurate some invented. Did
any information of civil service corruption turn up in Bombay? Did any
information of that corruption turn up on Dec 20, 1961 or thereafter? The
civil service was mainly Goan. They did not go anywhere. Anybody complained
about corruption involving those Goan civil servants? Some might still be
alive. Check with them na!

BTW: I wonder if my reference to 'Goans' was construed appropriately.

==

Santosh Helekar: As for Josebab's understanding below, we know very well
that in the post-Portuguese Goa many of the administrative officials who
are known to be crooked and corrupt are also Goans,

jc: Is it or Is it not because the SYSTEM (that Roland was referring to)
did not tolerate corruption ? I am not really up to date with the events
of 2014. Personally, I have no evidence at hand to state that any officials
are corrupt in 2014. But, for now, I will accept Santoshbab's view on
matters as they exist in 2014. He may wish to opine IF the present SYSTEM
tolerates corruption.

===

Santosh Helekar: My observation has been that corruption and crookedness
does not have anything do with education, race
or religion.

jc: I almost agree. My belief is that it was the SYSTEM which played an
important positive or negative role...along with the Culture of Zhalacch
Pahije and Chalta hai.

jc
Santosh Helekar
2014-04-05 21:12:41 UTC
Permalink
I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa.

So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese "system" from published sources documented in real time as the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples later, if needed.

Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the wholesale manufacturing
of rice manifests with over-inflated figures.?

So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end?

For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.?

Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes.

The second corruption scandal was called the "Bogus Rice Deal". It took place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira, the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias. Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan style as always.

That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide them.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by roland.francis
Jose and Santosh babs,
JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I could have done.
WHAT SYSTEM Santosh??
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the
economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal,
illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.
Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced
like in your scientific world in order to be believed. ?Otherwise one expresses
incredulity like you have done.?
You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or
experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014? 8:09 AM? (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere
mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
Bernado Colaco
2014-04-05 05:16:28 UTC
Permalink
The Salazar system did not allow the crookery.?Your bharat systems is all over the place. Now a genocidist is on the verge of becoming the Prime Minister.
?
BC
?
How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?

Cheers,

Santosh
roland.francis
2014-04-05 22:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice manifests are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would hesitate to tell this to my own brother (if I had one).

What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over- ?manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or perhaps busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555 cigarettes and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came in from Belgaum and Karwar?

Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the Portuguese in a poor light.

Roland.


Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Date: 04-05-2014 5:12 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>,"Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>,"jc>" <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Fwd: Re: Incubator For Political Crooks?

I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa.

So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese "system" from published sources documented in real time as the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples later, if needed.

Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the wholesale manufacturing
of rice manifests with over-inflated figures.?

So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end?

For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.?

Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes.

The second corruption scandal was called the "Bogus Rice Deal". It took place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira, the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias. Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan style as always.

That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide them.

Cheers,

Santosh
Jose and Santosh babs,
JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I
could have done.
WHAT SYSTEM Santosh??
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the
economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal,
illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.
Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced
like in your scientific world in order to be believed. ?Otherwise one expresses
incredulity like you have done.?
You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or
experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014? 8:09 AM? (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere
mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
roland.francis
2014-04-04 02:57:01 UTC
Permalink
A very recent Goa news item says that one-third of Goa candidates have criminal records.

I am not anti Indian or pro Portuguese or anything of the sort but knowing that in Potuguese Goa there was no crook in the administration (the system just didn't allow it) and now learning that ?fully one third of Goan politicians are crooks, a result of the Indian dispensation, one is tempted to ask VMinGoa or his other avatar VMdeMalar whether "better" Indian education or "inferior" Potuguese education had anything to do with this?

Roland.

Sent from Samsung Mobile
roland.francis
2014-04-04 15:34:13 UTC
Permalink
Jose and Santosh babs,

JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I could have done.

WHAT SYSTEM Santosh??
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal, illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.

Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced like in your scientific world in order to be believed. ?Otherwise one expresses incredulity like you have done.?

You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.

Roland.


Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014 8:09 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?

On Apr 4, 2014, at 1:12 AM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:

"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?"


COMMENT:

While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the Portuguese administration that he knows of.

Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to prove/disprove the negative.

Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.

ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.

Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public administration to flourish?

Might be a good idea to prove it.

jc
Bernado Colaco
2014-04-05 05:16:28 UTC
Permalink
The Salazar system did not allow the crookery.?Your bharat systems is all over the place. Now a genocidist is on the verge of becoming the Prime Minister.
?
BC
?
How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?

Cheers,

Santosh
roland.francis
2014-04-05 22:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice manifests are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would hesitate to tell this to my own brother (if I had one).

What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over- ?manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or perhaps busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555 cigarettes and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came in from Belgaum and Karwar?

Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the Portuguese in a poor light.

Roland.


Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Date: 04-05-2014 5:12 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>,"Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>,"jc>" <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Fwd: Re: Incubator For Political Crooks?

I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa.

So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese "system" from published sources documented in real time as the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples later, if needed.

Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the wholesale manufacturing
of rice manifests with over-inflated figures.?

So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end?

For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.?

Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes.

The second corruption scandal was called the "Bogus Rice Deal". It took place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira, the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias. Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan style as always.

That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide them.

Cheers,

Santosh
Jose and Santosh babs,
JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I
could have done.
WHAT SYSTEM Santosh??
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the
economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal,
illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.
Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced
like in your scientific world in order to be believed. ?Otherwise one expresses
incredulity like you have done.?
You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or
experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014? 8:09 AM? (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere
mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
roland.francis
2014-04-04 02:57:01 UTC
Permalink
A very recent Goa news item says that one-third of Goa candidates have criminal records.

I am not anti Indian or pro Portuguese or anything of the sort but knowing that in Potuguese Goa there was no crook in the administration (the system just didn't allow it) and now learning that ?fully one third of Goan politicians are crooks, a result of the Indian dispensation, one is tempted to ask VMinGoa or his other avatar VMdeMalar whether "better" Indian education or "inferior" Potuguese education had anything to do with this?

Roland.

Sent from Samsung Mobile
roland.francis
2014-04-04 15:34:13 UTC
Permalink
Jose and Santosh babs,

JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I could have done.

WHAT SYSTEM Santosh??
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal, illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.

Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced like in your scientific world in order to be believed. ?Otherwise one expresses incredulity like you have done.?

You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.

Roland.


Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014 8:09 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?

On Apr 4, 2014, at 1:12 AM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:

"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?"


COMMENT:

While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the Portuguese administration that he knows of.

Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to prove/disprove the negative.

Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.

ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.

Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public administration to flourish?

Might be a good idea to prove it.

jc
Bernado Colaco
2014-04-05 05:16:28 UTC
Permalink
The Salazar system did not allow the crookery.?Your bharat systems is all over the place. Now a genocidist is on the verge of becoming the Prime Minister.
?
BC
?
How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it?

Cheers,

Santosh
roland.francis
2014-04-05 22:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice manifests are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would hesitate to tell this to my own brother (if I had one).

What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over- ?manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or perhaps busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555 cigarettes and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came in from Belgaum and Karwar?

Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the Portuguese in a poor light.

Roland.


Sent from Samsung Mobile

-------- Original message --------
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Date: 04-05-2014 5:12 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>,"Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>,"jc>" <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Fwd: Re: Incubator For Political Crooks?

I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa.

So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese "system" from published sources documented in real time as the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples later, if needed.

Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the wholesale manufacturing
of rice manifests with over-inflated figures.?

So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end?

For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist.?

Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes.

The second corruption scandal was called the "Bogus Rice Deal". It took place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira, the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias. Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan style as always.

That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide them.

Cheers,

Santosh
Jose and Santosh babs,
JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I
could have done.
WHAT SYSTEM Santosh??
A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the
economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal,
illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity.
Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced
like in your scientific world in order to be believed. ?Otherwise one expresses
incredulity like you have done.?
You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or
experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief.
Roland.
Sent from Samsung Mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: Jose Colaco <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Date: 04-04-2014? 8:09 AM? (GMT-05:00)
To: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>,"Goa's premiere
mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: "roland.francis" <roland.francis at ymail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks?
"How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration,
and when? What system did not allow it?"
While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it
would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the
Portuguese administration that he knows of.
Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to
prove/disprove the negative.
Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and
perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court.
ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and
policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans.
Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live
without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public
administration to flourish?
Might be a good idea to prove it.
jc
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