Discussion:
Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
(too old to reply)
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-10 19:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Frederick:

There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious derision directed
against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies". It's reminiscent of our erstwhile
foreign masters and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us Goans
as "Goanese". I have known many of these fine, pioneering sons and
daughters of our ancestor's soil. They are the salt of the earth. It's their
honest, humble toil and guts that has brought golden opportunities for
prosperity and prestige to many of their scions who are the thriving
"noveau riche" of today. I compare them with the legendary Argonauts of
Greek mythology. Undaunted by the risks and hardships of the unknown, the
hostilities encountered as aliens, the struggles of humble antecedents and
lack of formal education, these valiant people have persevered and
established themselves heroically. The fruits of their noble endeavors are a
predominance of the "arrives" we hobnob with in this day and age.
I'm proud and privileged to have known these brave, industrious pioneers who
have marvellously blazed the Trails to Glory for their fortunate
descendants. Their loyalty to family, innate patriotism and intrepid
sacrifices are an inspiration to all of us Goans. Importantly, their
monetary remittances and investments have made substantial contributions to
Goa's economy that could have turned moribund. True the Nonresident Goan's
inevitable ostentation and xenophiliia has raised the dander of the locals
frequently. However one can scarcely deny the expatriates have created a
new Westernized dimension in our culture that could prove serendipitiously
to be an "Open Sesame" to blend the old with the new. If you remember, the
conquistador Vasco Da Gama did that just that for Goa nearly 500 years
ago!!!.

Quoting Thomas Gray's Elegy written in a Country Courtyard, I would like to
cite in part what the great poet wrote in 1751:

Let not ambition mock their useful toil;
Their homely joys, and destiny obscure;
Nor grandeur hear, with a disdainful smile,
The short and simple annals of the poor.

Around the turn of the 19th-20th Century, an exodus of Jewish immigrants
arrived in New York City to start life anew after fleeing pogroms and other
persecution. Many, including even children, worked in the garment industry
twelve hours a day, seven days a week. Paraphrasing their motto it ran
thus:" We'ill work our fingers to the bone and our backs into bows so that
our children can stand on our shoulders to challenge posterity". I believe
our Goan diaspora/denizens/seafarers embody the noble spirit of that
sanguine credo.

Cheers
Arnold
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-13 06:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious
derision directed against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies".
It's reminiscent of our erstwhile foreign masters
and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us
Goans as "Goanese".
RESPONSE: Hi Arnold. Nice to read you again albeit in this rather sordid
thread. You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees. It appears, the fact that Cecil writes a humour column escaped her,
while you just applauded his last column.

However, Dr Karmu (whatever that prefix indicates), took this issue to a new
low and began deriding all Goan Gulfies and Shippies as performing menial
labour. The man lacks any knowledge of his own people, notwithstanding the
prefix he carries around. In his pursuit to drown out all other thoughts he
is quick to flash his Eye-Eye-Tee credentials that mean very little on this
medium.

While we cannot arrange to have Attention Seekers tethered to the next Delta
II launch out of KSC in June, we need some thaumaturgy to treat this
disorder, here and now.

First it was the Kashti, then hockey, quickly followed by Eye-Eye-Tee and
now Purreekur. The man is going to lose it with or without an audience.

Selma on the other hand would be better off if she includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.

Remember, Roland called you the 'bard'. Looking forward to your rhyme. No
pressure!!

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-13 14:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma on the other hand would be better off if she
includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is
being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.
-----------------------------------
Dear Bosco,

I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum. I
wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society. Unfortunately, the
discussion did not focus on the causes of this issue
but veered off into further derision and name-calling,
at which point I stopped contributing to the
discussion.

Selma





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Sunith Velho
2007-03-13 15:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Bosco,

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic
community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum
to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in
the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.

She further inroduced the words "Gulfie" and "Shippie" into her posts, thus
giving K3+5garages+3BHK an outlet for his frustration.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda(who started this debate), Albert
or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from
the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent
coastal villages.

Regards
Sunith






You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees.
Carvalho
2007-03-14 14:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate
and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a
Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.
-------------------------------------
Dear Sunith,

Part of the folly of youth is its arrogance but the
charm of youth is its passion and exuberance. You are
beginning to display all of the former and none of the
later.

In your eagerness to disclose the chips on my
shoulder, you have failed to delve further into this
issue or even consider that there maybe underlying
causes to this stereotyping.

Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.

I believe this stratification makes us ashamed of
occupations seen as less than desirable and because we
Goans need the crutch of identifying people by some
measure other than their actual worth, we have now
extended these classifications to Gulfies and shippies
and any other "ies" we can find. That's my theory.

Now, I really have no wish to continue this debate
because, real substantive points are not being
discussed. Rather we are more interested in people's
insecurities and chips.

Incidentally, please don't act all innocent. You have
on several occasions repeatedly stated that all that
Gulf Goans are good for is setting up STD booths or
financing a taxi. This was said with derision,
although the way I see it, he's boosting the economy
by setting up small businesses.

Thank you,
selma



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Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-15 13:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining to the examples you
provided.

But for the humbug generated by bogus caste pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further, in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.
selma
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-15 13:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining to the examples you
provided.

But for the humbug generated by bogus caste pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further, in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.
selma
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-15 13:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining to the examples you
provided.

But for the humbug generated by bogus caste pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further, in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.
selma
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-15 13:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining to the examples you
provided.

But for the humbug generated by bogus caste pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further, in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.
selma
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-15 13:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining to the examples you
provided.

But for the humbug generated by bogus caste pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further, in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.
selma
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-15 13:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining to the examples you
provided.

But for the humbug generated by bogus caste pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further, in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.
selma
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-15 13:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining to the examples you
provided.

But for the humbug generated by bogus caste pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further, in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.
selma
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-15 03:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Often the lack of motivation / school drop-out of the student stems from a well-meaning elder (parent, uncle / aunt or older brother / sister) assuring a youngster that they can be sponsored to go abroad and thus get out of a "bad system". The blame (and the only reason for the failure) is placed on "the system", absolving the youngsters on any responsibility. (See Gllenda's posts). A similar case was made by a well-meaning educationist on this thread - efforts and "perspiration" were not needed for success.

I recollect a premedical classmate of mine throw away his college-years by reassuring himself that his older brother in America was going to sponsor him, as soon as he finished college. Hence any success in Bombay would be "a waste". On the other hand, this supurlo Goenkar (moi) with no brother or uncle to provide security had to bust my own butt to achieve my success in my exams and career.

When the young student arrives in the real world, (in Goa, India or abroad), success continues to be distant. This is because they are not used to the mental and physical discipline. In fact often the sponsoring relative is blamed for not doing enough. These students often are at the bottom of the work-hierarchy (on the dock, cruise liner etc.); and with lack of education, skills and discipline continue to be there for the rest of their life.

Thus there is big difference between those with success leaving Goa and India and others, as we have seen in this discussion. The former carry traits of knowledge, education, training and most importantly a well-grounded discipline. I have often told my relatives on migration to USA and Canada, "Your challenges have not ended with immigration. They have only just begun." This likely provides Sunith with an answer to his question.
Kind Regards, GL

------------- Sunith Velho

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda (who started this debate), Albert or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent coastal villages.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-16 04:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Bosco,
I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum.
RESPONSE: I don't understand what it is you are defending. The Gulf-worker
aka Gulfee has done no wrong. There must be close to 500,000 people of Goan
origin earning/living in the Gulf/Middle East. And several thousand more
tarvottis aka Shippies. With such a large segment of the population,
condescension maybe out of place.

I think your assertions about Cecil Pinto are misplaced. Almost everybody
knows that Cecil Pinto is a humor columnist and to juxatpose what he writes
with Carmo (for example) would be absurd. Cecil enjoys bringing a smile and
chortles to his readers. I'm sure you too enjoyed his latest piece on Goan
Eating Etiquette. There are several Gulfies subscribed here and who
participate. Didn't see anybody throw a fit. Similarly it would be improper
for anybody to overly scrutinize your below post made in zest:

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055079.html
Post by Carvalho
I wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society.
RESPONSE: Get the ball rolling and hope the discussion catches on. That
certainly is a fertile pool for a sociologist's dissertation.

As far as Sunith is concerned he has been pretty clear from his earliest
messages on this thread that the problem with Goan education lay with
students who had no motivation / poor aspirations. And yes he did go on to
describe some of those aspirations.

This popped into my mailbox today. An article on Goan youth at the beach.
Ofcourse some will blame the Catholic priests, others will blame the
politicians and still others will blame the Goan education
system........there is plenty of blame to go around.....oh yeah and some may
blame expats too. Few want to pull up their own socks.

"Most boys in our age group drop out after class seven or eight, for they
realise that going to school doesn't really guarantee them good jobs," said
Joseph."

"Most of the group felt that getting a driving licence (and someday, a taxi
of their own) would take them further away from poverty than an education
would. Another option local boys often dreamt of, was shipping. "Ten months
on a ship, and you can earn enough to build your own home in the village!"
said Thomas."

The entire article can be found at :

http://www.business-standard.com/opinionanalysis/storypage.php?leftnm=4&subLeft=2&chklogin=N&autono=277201&tab=r


So IMO as far as Cecil and Sunith are concerned on this thread, you're
shooting blanks.

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-16 05:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
------------------------------
Dear Cornel,

Oddly enough my humourous take on the stratification
and segmentation of Goan society, prompted many Goanet
readers to write to me and acknowledge that while they
had a good laugh, it was also spot on the money.

Whether we like to admit it or not, Goan society is
unnecessarily divided along several barriers. I hasten
to add here, that almost all societies are segmented
mostly along economic lines but this is compounded in
Goa, when one is further fragmented with a number of
cultural and social barriers.

In this regard, the Arabs are rather remarkable. Islam
was one of the earlier religions based on the concept
of equality. Their mosques are a testimony to this.
They don't have any seating and a prince can likely
end up praying next to a pauper. The boss will think
nothing of breaking fast with the office-boy, during
Ramadan even sharing the same plate. Islam also
introduced the concept of The Majlis. A place where
the common man could address his queries with the
tribal leader or sheikh (this concept still exists in
the Sheikdoms of the Gulf).

I have no doubt, that in time Goa will become more of
a melting pot, more tolerant of ethnic, social and
cultural difference. But that day has not come yet.

selma



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sonia gomes
2007-03-16 06:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Selma,

Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.

Regards,

Sonia do Rosario Gomes
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
But for the humbug generated by bogus caste
pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further,
in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is
actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been
deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's
premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for
the
Post by Carvalho
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is
a
Post by Carvalho
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this
disdain
Post by Carvalho
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never
be a
Post by Carvalho
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or
how
Post by Carvalho
many fishing export units he may set up. Come
marriage
Post by Carvalho
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to
be
Post by Carvalho
shunned.
selma
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Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2007-03-17 07:43:09 UTC
Permalink
In a caste-defined and hegemonised society this is entirely understandable.

Sanskritisation is a term coined by the eminent Indian sociologist,
M.N.Srinivas, to denote the process by which castes placed lower in
the caste hierarchy seek upward mobility by emulating the rituals and
practices of the upper or dominant castes. It is a process similar to
passing in anthropological terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskritisation

Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social
status and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other
so-called elites) have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How
many of us, giving big talk here, would like our children to grow up
to be ramponkars, renders, toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the
village fields? Or is dignity of labour a concept only for others? It
is no surprise that a fisherman's son would prefer to leave his
traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified tourism sector, and
at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist for whom social
markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the average Goan!

Of course, the Gaitondes have entered the shoe-business (but only at
the very top end, and when there is a lot of money in it). Take a look
at the fashionable Gaitonde's brand of shoes in their showroom not far
from the Panjim municipality. --FN
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma,
Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.
Regards,
Sonia do Rosario Gomes
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-19 13:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Fred
Re your post, surely the issue is that, upward social mobility brought
about largely through education and higher occupation is what most parents
want for their children.

My understanding is that upward social and occupational mobility creates
space for those who literally step in the 'lowly' shoes of those who have
moved up. It is also my understanding re those yet to become occupationally
mobile, and unfortunately
identified in some Goanet posts as "gulfies, shipies" etc as well as
ramponkars,
renders (who may incidentally wish to retain their historic occupation)
that, human dignity is indivisible and that we need to treat all with the
respect they deserve.

I know the writings of Srinivas, of course, but am I missing something in
terms of your specific post on this issue?

Re your point about the Goan tourist worker who may be more at ease with a
white tourist than a local bigwig, this is inevitable in the utterly
obnoxious Goan caste climate that endeavours to label by caste or casteicise
(my construct and not yet in dictionary!) every Goan in sight even if the
'recipients' of such attention have absolutely no clue about caste,
especially if they have been Goan diasporians and away from India for three
or more generations. Indeed, if they did discover the depth of Catholic Goan
preoccupation with
caste, (assuming not having imbibed it with their mother's milk), they would
be dismissive of something that exercises resident Goans in Goa so much
that, they simply can't resist the key question about where you or your
father come from---a question they generally forget to ask the white man in
Goa and when it would definitely be more appropriate!
Regards
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick "FN" Noronha" <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social status
and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other so-called elites)
have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How many of us, giving big
talk here, would like our children to grow up to be ramponkars, renders,
toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the village fields? Or is dignity of
labour a concept only for others? It is no surprise that a fisherman's son
would prefer to leave his traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified
tourism sector, and at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist
for whom social markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the
average Goan!
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-19 13:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Fred
Re your post, surely the issue is that, upward social mobility brought
about largely through education and higher occupation is what most parents
want for their children.

My understanding is that upward social and occupational mobility creates
space for those who literally step in the 'lowly' shoes of those who have
moved up. It is also my understanding re those yet to become occupationally
mobile, and unfortunately
identified in some Goanet posts as "gulfies, shipies" etc as well as
ramponkars,
renders (who may incidentally wish to retain their historic occupation)
that, human dignity is indivisible and that we need to treat all with the
respect they deserve.

I know the writings of Srinivas, of course, but am I missing something in
terms of your specific post on this issue?

Re your point about the Goan tourist worker who may be more at ease with a
white tourist than a local bigwig, this is inevitable in the utterly
obnoxious Goan caste climate that endeavours to label by caste or casteicise
(my construct and not yet in dictionary!) every Goan in sight even if the
'recipients' of such attention have absolutely no clue about caste,
especially if they have been Goan diasporians and away from India for three
or more generations. Indeed, if they did discover the depth of Catholic Goan
preoccupation with
caste, (assuming not having imbibed it with their mother's milk), they would
be dismissive of something that exercises resident Goans in Goa so much
that, they simply can't resist the key question about where you or your
father come from---a question they generally forget to ask the white man in
Goa and when it would definitely be more appropriate!
Regards
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick "FN" Noronha" <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social status
and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other so-called elites)
have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How many of us, giving big
talk here, would like our children to grow up to be ramponkars, renders,
toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the village fields? Or is dignity of
labour a concept only for others? It is no surprise that a fisherman's son
would prefer to leave his traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified
tourism sector, and at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist
for whom social markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the
average Goan!
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-19 13:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Fred
Re your post, surely the issue is that, upward social mobility brought
about largely through education and higher occupation is what most parents
want for their children.

My understanding is that upward social and occupational mobility creates
space for those who literally step in the 'lowly' shoes of those who have
moved up. It is also my understanding re those yet to become occupationally
mobile, and unfortunately
identified in some Goanet posts as "gulfies, shipies" etc as well as
ramponkars,
renders (who may incidentally wish to retain their historic occupation)
that, human dignity is indivisible and that we need to treat all with the
respect they deserve.

I know the writings of Srinivas, of course, but am I missing something in
terms of your specific post on this issue?

Re your point about the Goan tourist worker who may be more at ease with a
white tourist than a local bigwig, this is inevitable in the utterly
obnoxious Goan caste climate that endeavours to label by caste or casteicise
(my construct and not yet in dictionary!) every Goan in sight even if the
'recipients' of such attention have absolutely no clue about caste,
especially if they have been Goan diasporians and away from India for three
or more generations. Indeed, if they did discover the depth of Catholic Goan
preoccupation with
caste, (assuming not having imbibed it with their mother's milk), they would
be dismissive of something that exercises resident Goans in Goa so much
that, they simply can't resist the key question about where you or your
father come from---a question they generally forget to ask the white man in
Goa and when it would definitely be more appropriate!
Regards
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick "FN" Noronha" <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social status
and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other so-called elites)
have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How many of us, giving big
talk here, would like our children to grow up to be ramponkars, renders,
toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the village fields? Or is dignity of
labour a concept only for others? It is no surprise that a fisherman's son
would prefer to leave his traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified
tourism sector, and at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist
for whom social markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the
average Goan!
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-19 13:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Fred
Re your post, surely the issue is that, upward social mobility brought
about largely through education and higher occupation is what most parents
want for their children.

My understanding is that upward social and occupational mobility creates
space for those who literally step in the 'lowly' shoes of those who have
moved up. It is also my understanding re those yet to become occupationally
mobile, and unfortunately
identified in some Goanet posts as "gulfies, shipies" etc as well as
ramponkars,
renders (who may incidentally wish to retain their historic occupation)
that, human dignity is indivisible and that we need to treat all with the
respect they deserve.

I know the writings of Srinivas, of course, but am I missing something in
terms of your specific post on this issue?

Re your point about the Goan tourist worker who may be more at ease with a
white tourist than a local bigwig, this is inevitable in the utterly
obnoxious Goan caste climate that endeavours to label by caste or casteicise
(my construct and not yet in dictionary!) every Goan in sight even if the
'recipients' of such attention have absolutely no clue about caste,
especially if they have been Goan diasporians and away from India for three
or more generations. Indeed, if they did discover the depth of Catholic Goan
preoccupation with
caste, (assuming not having imbibed it with their mother's milk), they would
be dismissive of something that exercises resident Goans in Goa so much
that, they simply can't resist the key question about where you or your
father come from---a question they generally forget to ask the white man in
Goa and when it would definitely be more appropriate!
Regards
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick "FN" Noronha" <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social status
and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other so-called elites)
have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How many of us, giving big
talk here, would like our children to grow up to be ramponkars, renders,
toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the village fields? Or is dignity of
labour a concept only for others? It is no surprise that a fisherman's son
would prefer to leave his traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified
tourism sector, and at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist
for whom social markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the
average Goan!
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-19 13:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Fred
Re your post, surely the issue is that, upward social mobility brought
about largely through education and higher occupation is what most parents
want for their children.

My understanding is that upward social and occupational mobility creates
space for those who literally step in the 'lowly' shoes of those who have
moved up. It is also my understanding re those yet to become occupationally
mobile, and unfortunately
identified in some Goanet posts as "gulfies, shipies" etc as well as
ramponkars,
renders (who may incidentally wish to retain their historic occupation)
that, human dignity is indivisible and that we need to treat all with the
respect they deserve.

I know the writings of Srinivas, of course, but am I missing something in
terms of your specific post on this issue?

Re your point about the Goan tourist worker who may be more at ease with a
white tourist than a local bigwig, this is inevitable in the utterly
obnoxious Goan caste climate that endeavours to label by caste or casteicise
(my construct and not yet in dictionary!) every Goan in sight even if the
'recipients' of such attention have absolutely no clue about caste,
especially if they have been Goan diasporians and away from India for three
or more generations. Indeed, if they did discover the depth of Catholic Goan
preoccupation with
caste, (assuming not having imbibed it with their mother's milk), they would
be dismissive of something that exercises resident Goans in Goa so much
that, they simply can't resist the key question about where you or your
father come from---a question they generally forget to ask the white man in
Goa and when it would definitely be more appropriate!
Regards
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick "FN" Noronha" <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social status
and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other so-called elites)
have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How many of us, giving big
talk here, would like our children to grow up to be ramponkars, renders,
toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the village fields? Or is dignity of
labour a concept only for others? It is no surprise that a fisherman's son
would prefer to leave his traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified
tourism sector, and at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist
for whom social markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the
average Goan!
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-19 13:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Fred
Re your post, surely the issue is that, upward social mobility brought
about largely through education and higher occupation is what most parents
want for their children.

My understanding is that upward social and occupational mobility creates
space for those who literally step in the 'lowly' shoes of those who have
moved up. It is also my understanding re those yet to become occupationally
mobile, and unfortunately
identified in some Goanet posts as "gulfies, shipies" etc as well as
ramponkars,
renders (who may incidentally wish to retain their historic occupation)
that, human dignity is indivisible and that we need to treat all with the
respect they deserve.

I know the writings of Srinivas, of course, but am I missing something in
terms of your specific post on this issue?

Re your point about the Goan tourist worker who may be more at ease with a
white tourist than a local bigwig, this is inevitable in the utterly
obnoxious Goan caste climate that endeavours to label by caste or casteicise
(my construct and not yet in dictionary!) every Goan in sight even if the
'recipients' of such attention have absolutely no clue about caste,
especially if they have been Goan diasporians and away from India for three
or more generations. Indeed, if they did discover the depth of Catholic Goan
preoccupation with
caste, (assuming not having imbibed it with their mother's milk), they would
be dismissive of something that exercises resident Goans in Goa so much
that, they simply can't resist the key question about where you or your
father come from---a question they generally forget to ask the white man in
Goa and when it would definitely be more appropriate!
Regards
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick "FN" Noronha" <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social status
and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other so-called elites)
have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How many of us, giving big
talk here, would like our children to grow up to be ramponkars, renders,
toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the village fields? Or is dignity of
labour a concept only for others? It is no surprise that a fisherman's son
would prefer to leave his traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified
tourism sector, and at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist
for whom social markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the
average Goan!
Cornel DaCosta
2007-03-19 13:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Fred
Re your post, surely the issue is that, upward social mobility brought
about largely through education and higher occupation is what most parents
want for their children.

My understanding is that upward social and occupational mobility creates
space for those who literally step in the 'lowly' shoes of those who have
moved up. It is also my understanding re those yet to become occupationally
mobile, and unfortunately
identified in some Goanet posts as "gulfies, shipies" etc as well as
ramponkars,
renders (who may incidentally wish to retain their historic occupation)
that, human dignity is indivisible and that we need to treat all with the
respect they deserve.

I know the writings of Srinivas, of course, but am I missing something in
terms of your specific post on this issue?

Re your point about the Goan tourist worker who may be more at ease with a
white tourist than a local bigwig, this is inevitable in the utterly
obnoxious Goan caste climate that endeavours to label by caste or casteicise
(my construct and not yet in dictionary!) every Goan in sight even if the
'recipients' of such attention have absolutely no clue about caste,
especially if they have been Goan diasporians and away from India for three
or more generations. Indeed, if they did discover the depth of Catholic Goan
preoccupation with
caste, (assuming not having imbibed it with their mother's milk), they would
be dismissive of something that exercises resident Goans in Goa so much
that, they simply can't resist the key question about where you or your
father come from---a question they generally forget to ask the white man in
Goa and when it would definitely be more appropriate!
Regards
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick "FN" Noronha" <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social status
and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other so-called elites)
have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How many of us, giving big
talk here, would like our children to grow up to be ramponkars, renders,
toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the village fields? Or is dignity of
labour a concept only for others? It is no surprise that a fisherman's son
would prefer to leave his traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified
tourism sector, and at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist
for whom social markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the
average Goan!
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2007-03-17 07:43:09 UTC
Permalink
In a caste-defined and hegemonised society this is entirely understandable.

Sanskritisation is a term coined by the eminent Indian sociologist,
M.N.Srinivas, to denote the process by which castes placed lower in
the caste hierarchy seek upward mobility by emulating the rituals and
practices of the upper or dominant castes. It is a process similar to
passing in anthropological terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskritisation

Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social
status and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other
so-called elites) have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How
many of us, giving big talk here, would like our children to grow up
to be ramponkars, renders, toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the
village fields? Or is dignity of labour a concept only for others? It
is no surprise that a fisherman's son would prefer to leave his
traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified tourism sector, and
at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist for whom social
markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the average Goan!

Of course, the Gaitondes have entered the shoe-business (but only at
the very top end, and when there is a lot of money in it). Take a look
at the fashionable Gaitonde's brand of shoes in their showroom not far
from the Panjim municipality. --FN
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma,
Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.
Regards,
Sonia do Rosario Gomes
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2007-03-17 07:43:09 UTC
Permalink
In a caste-defined and hegemonised society this is entirely understandable.

Sanskritisation is a term coined by the eminent Indian sociologist,
M.N.Srinivas, to denote the process by which castes placed lower in
the caste hierarchy seek upward mobility by emulating the rituals and
practices of the upper or dominant castes. It is a process similar to
passing in anthropological terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskritisation

Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social
status and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other
so-called elites) have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How
many of us, giving big talk here, would like our children to grow up
to be ramponkars, renders, toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the
village fields? Or is dignity of labour a concept only for others? It
is no surprise that a fisherman's son would prefer to leave his
traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified tourism sector, and
at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist for whom social
markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the average Goan!

Of course, the Gaitondes have entered the shoe-business (but only at
the very top end, and when there is a lot of money in it). Take a look
at the fashionable Gaitonde's brand of shoes in their showroom not far
from the Panjim municipality. --FN
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma,
Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.
Regards,
Sonia do Rosario Gomes
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2007-03-17 07:43:09 UTC
Permalink
In a caste-defined and hegemonised society this is entirely understandable.

Sanskritisation is a term coined by the eminent Indian sociologist,
M.N.Srinivas, to denote the process by which castes placed lower in
the caste hierarchy seek upward mobility by emulating the rituals and
practices of the upper or dominant castes. It is a process similar to
passing in anthropological terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskritisation

Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social
status and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other
so-called elites) have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How
many of us, giving big talk here, would like our children to grow up
to be ramponkars, renders, toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the
village fields? Or is dignity of labour a concept only for others? It
is no surprise that a fisherman's son would prefer to leave his
traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified tourism sector, and
at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist for whom social
markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the average Goan!

Of course, the Gaitondes have entered the shoe-business (but only at
the very top end, and when there is a lot of money in it). Take a look
at the fashionable Gaitonde's brand of shoes in their showroom not far
from the Panjim municipality. --FN
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma,
Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.
Regards,
Sonia do Rosario Gomes
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2007-03-17 07:43:09 UTC
Permalink
In a caste-defined and hegemonised society this is entirely understandable.

Sanskritisation is a term coined by the eminent Indian sociologist,
M.N.Srinivas, to denote the process by which castes placed lower in
the caste hierarchy seek upward mobility by emulating the rituals and
practices of the upper or dominant castes. It is a process similar to
passing in anthropological terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskritisation

Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social
status and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other
so-called elites) have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How
many of us, giving big talk here, would like our children to grow up
to be ramponkars, renders, toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the
village fields? Or is dignity of labour a concept only for others? It
is no surprise that a fisherman's son would prefer to leave his
traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified tourism sector, and
at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist for whom social
markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the average Goan!

Of course, the Gaitondes have entered the shoe-business (but only at
the very top end, and when there is a lot of money in it). Take a look
at the fashionable Gaitonde's brand of shoes in their showroom not far
from the Panjim municipality. --FN
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma,
Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.
Regards,
Sonia do Rosario Gomes
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2007-03-17 07:43:09 UTC
Permalink
In a caste-defined and hegemonised society this is entirely understandable.

Sanskritisation is a term coined by the eminent Indian sociologist,
M.N.Srinivas, to denote the process by which castes placed lower in
the caste hierarchy seek upward mobility by emulating the rituals and
practices of the upper or dominant castes. It is a process similar to
passing in anthropological terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskritisation

Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social
status and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other
so-called elites) have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How
many of us, giving big talk here, would like our children to grow up
to be ramponkars, renders, toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the
village fields? Or is dignity of labour a concept only for others? It
is no surprise that a fisherman's son would prefer to leave his
traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified tourism sector, and
at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist for whom social
markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the average Goan!

Of course, the Gaitondes have entered the shoe-business (but only at
the very top end, and when there is a lot of money in it). Take a look
at the fashionable Gaitonde's brand of shoes in their showroom not far
from the Panjim municipality. --FN
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma,
Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.
Regards,
Sonia do Rosario Gomes
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2007-03-17 07:43:09 UTC
Permalink
In a caste-defined and hegemonised society this is entirely understandable.

Sanskritisation is a term coined by the eminent Indian sociologist,
M.N.Srinivas, to denote the process by which castes placed lower in
the caste hierarchy seek upward mobility by emulating the rituals and
practices of the upper or dominant castes. It is a process similar to
passing in anthropological terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskritisation

Much of Selma's "lack of dignity of labour" is about the low social
status and contempt that the "upper castes" (Bamons and other
so-called elites) have attached to the work of the less-affluent. How
many of us, giving big talk here, would like our children to grow up
to be ramponkars, renders, toddy-tappers, and day-labourers in the
village fields? Or is dignity of labour a concept only for others? It
is no surprise that a fisherman's son would prefer to leave his
traditional job, move to a less caste-stratified tourism sector, and
at least be treated as almost-human by a White tourist for whom social
markers in Goa are less strong or visible than for the average Goan!

Of course, the Gaitondes have entered the shoe-business (but only at
the very top end, and when there is a lot of money in it). Take a look
at the fashionable Gaitonde's brand of shoes in their showroom not far
from the Panjim municipality. --FN
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma,
Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.
Regards,
Sonia do Rosario Gomes
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 12:33:45 UTC
Permalink
I read Jerry Fernandes' post, and as I analyze it, there is little difference from the message from Carmo.

Both emphasize the need for discipline, education and perseverance as young Goans are trained by THEIR parents, schools and colleges. This will break down caste, class, social and economic barriers. Jerry ani Carmo also emphasize the need to creat GOOD jobs IN Goa.

So next time native Goans protest economic progress and tourists developments projects in Goa, I hope both, together with Selma and others will join forces. They should ASK the naysayers (with jobs) about their own proposals to create the thousands of NEW jobs every year to employ the young Goans graduating from high schools and colleges. The taxes collected from these new enterprises will also pay of the wonderful things Goans rightly demand like better schools, hospitals, electricity, water, roads, garbage disposal etc.

It is great and easy to criticize, especially sitting on a high chair or in a balcao sipping on scotch or feni.
Kind Regards, GL

---------------- Jerry Fernandes wrote:

Hi, I do support Selma in her mails. Caste system has been in India for centuries ... And hence we see, that these divisions persisted to even now. Now the new castes have arisen, and created by the wealthy, who call those have not as gulfies, tarvotis and pett carring, crate carrying and what not. Jobs being scarce in Goa, people move about to hunt for jobs, and will stay where ever possible.

And sitting on high chairs are accusing those Goans who leave Goa for jobs to different places. At least education during those days was better, now lying in shambles. It was rare to hear of tution classes than, which is a flourishing business. There are no counseling classes for SSC to guide the students to take the right direction and hence students follow their friends, and will take courses whichever their friends take.

No wonder many give up education after 5th std and than look for jobs in gulf or tarvar? Getting government job is a dream of many, but few attain it, and most cases its only the majority community. Hence the minority community move about as nomads looking for jobs and end up in Gulf to do the crate carrying jobs?


------------- CARMO DCRUZ wrote:
Subject: [Goanet] Higher Education/US degrees could be great Levellers in Stratified Goan Society

I think we have done the Goan Community A World of Good by Creating a Paradigm shift in their thinking - that there are more attractive career options if Goan Youngsters remain in College and get their degrees, rather than run off to the Gulf or the Ships after high school as Gulfies or Shippies. When Kharvi or Kunbi youth start graduating from college (including IITs) and start flying off to America on full scholarships or for high end jobs - we will see which Goans are questioning their Caste Stratifications upon their return ! Even Bamons, Chardos and others will make a beeline to their door steps with marriage proposals upon their return!

Education is a great Leveller ! American Education, Degrees and Careers will have a levelling impact on the caste stratifications of our Christao Goans! All for the Greater Good of our Beloved Goa !
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-10 19:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Frederick:

There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious derision directed
against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies". It's reminiscent of our erstwhile
foreign masters and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us Goans
as "Goanese". I have known many of these fine, pioneering sons and
daughters of our ancestor's soil. They are the salt of the earth. It's their
honest, humble toil and guts that has brought golden opportunities for
prosperity and prestige to many of their scions who are the thriving
"noveau riche" of today. I compare them with the legendary Argonauts of
Greek mythology. Undaunted by the risks and hardships of the unknown, the
hostilities encountered as aliens, the struggles of humble antecedents and
lack of formal education, these valiant people have persevered and
established themselves heroically. The fruits of their noble endeavors are a
predominance of the "arrives" we hobnob with in this day and age.
I'm proud and privileged to have known these brave, industrious pioneers who
have marvellously blazed the Trails to Glory for their fortunate
descendants. Their loyalty to family, innate patriotism and intrepid
sacrifices are an inspiration to all of us Goans. Importantly, their
monetary remittances and investments have made substantial contributions to
Goa's economy that could have turned moribund. True the Nonresident Goan's
inevitable ostentation and xenophiliia has raised the dander of the locals
frequently. However one can scarcely deny the expatriates have created a
new Westernized dimension in our culture that could prove serendipitiously
to be an "Open Sesame" to blend the old with the new. If you remember, the
conquistador Vasco Da Gama did that just that for Goa nearly 500 years
ago!!!.

Quoting Thomas Gray's Elegy written in a Country Courtyard, I would like to
cite in part what the great poet wrote in 1751:

Let not ambition mock their useful toil;
Their homely joys, and destiny obscure;
Nor grandeur hear, with a disdainful smile,
The short and simple annals of the poor.

Around the turn of the 19th-20th Century, an exodus of Jewish immigrants
arrived in New York City to start life anew after fleeing pogroms and other
persecution. Many, including even children, worked in the garment industry
twelve hours a day, seven days a week. Paraphrasing their motto it ran
thus:" We'ill work our fingers to the bone and our backs into bows so that
our children can stand on our shoulders to challenge posterity". I believe
our Goan diaspora/denizens/seafarers embody the noble spirit of that
sanguine credo.

Cheers
Arnold
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-13 06:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious
derision directed against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies".
It's reminiscent of our erstwhile foreign masters
and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us
Goans as "Goanese".
RESPONSE: Hi Arnold. Nice to read you again albeit in this rather sordid
thread. You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees. It appears, the fact that Cecil writes a humour column escaped her,
while you just applauded his last column.

However, Dr Karmu (whatever that prefix indicates), took this issue to a new
low and began deriding all Goan Gulfies and Shippies as performing menial
labour. The man lacks any knowledge of his own people, notwithstanding the
prefix he carries around. In his pursuit to drown out all other thoughts he
is quick to flash his Eye-Eye-Tee credentials that mean very little on this
medium.

While we cannot arrange to have Attention Seekers tethered to the next Delta
II launch out of KSC in June, we need some thaumaturgy to treat this
disorder, here and now.

First it was the Kashti, then hockey, quickly followed by Eye-Eye-Tee and
now Purreekur. The man is going to lose it with or without an audience.

Selma on the other hand would be better off if she includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.

Remember, Roland called you the 'bard'. Looking forward to your rhyme. No
pressure!!

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-13 14:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma on the other hand would be better off if she
includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is
being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.
-----------------------------------
Dear Bosco,

I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum. I
wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society. Unfortunately, the
discussion did not focus on the causes of this issue
but veered off into further derision and name-calling,
at which point I stopped contributing to the
discussion.

Selma





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Sunith Velho
2007-03-13 15:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Bosco,

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic
community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum
to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in
the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.

She further inroduced the words "Gulfie" and "Shippie" into her posts, thus
giving K3+5garages+3BHK an outlet for his frustration.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda(who started this debate), Albert
or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from
the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent
coastal villages.

Regards
Sunith






You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees.
Carvalho
2007-03-14 14:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate
and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a
Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.
-------------------------------------
Dear Sunith,

Part of the folly of youth is its arrogance but the
charm of youth is its passion and exuberance. You are
beginning to display all of the former and none of the
later.

In your eagerness to disclose the chips on my
shoulder, you have failed to delve further into this
issue or even consider that there maybe underlying
causes to this stereotyping.

Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.

I believe this stratification makes us ashamed of
occupations seen as less than desirable and because we
Goans need the crutch of identifying people by some
measure other than their actual worth, we have now
extended these classifications to Gulfies and shippies
and any other "ies" we can find. That's my theory.

Now, I really have no wish to continue this debate
because, real substantive points are not being
discussed. Rather we are more interested in people's
insecurities and chips.

Incidentally, please don't act all innocent. You have
on several occasions repeatedly stated that all that
Gulf Goans are good for is setting up STD booths or
financing a taxi. This was said with derision,
although the way I see it, he's boosting the economy
by setting up small businesses.

Thank you,
selma



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Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-15 03:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Often the lack of motivation / school drop-out of the student stems from a well-meaning elder (parent, uncle / aunt or older brother / sister) assuring a youngster that they can be sponsored to go abroad and thus get out of a "bad system". The blame (and the only reason for the failure) is placed on "the system", absolving the youngsters on any responsibility. (See Gllenda's posts). A similar case was made by a well-meaning educationist on this thread - efforts and "perspiration" were not needed for success.

I recollect a premedical classmate of mine throw away his college-years by reassuring himself that his older brother in America was going to sponsor him, as soon as he finished college. Hence any success in Bombay would be "a waste". On the other hand, this supurlo Goenkar (moi) with no brother or uncle to provide security had to bust my own butt to achieve my success in my exams and career.

When the young student arrives in the real world, (in Goa, India or abroad), success continues to be distant. This is because they are not used to the mental and physical discipline. In fact often the sponsoring relative is blamed for not doing enough. These students often are at the bottom of the work-hierarchy (on the dock, cruise liner etc.); and with lack of education, skills and discipline continue to be there for the rest of their life.

Thus there is big difference between those with success leaving Goa and India and others, as we have seen in this discussion. The former carry traits of knowledge, education, training and most importantly a well-grounded discipline. I have often told my relatives on migration to USA and Canada, "Your challenges have not ended with immigration. They have only just begun." This likely provides Sunith with an answer to his question.
Kind Regards, GL

------------- Sunith Velho

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda (who started this debate), Albert or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent coastal villages.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-16 04:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Bosco,
I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum.
RESPONSE: I don't understand what it is you are defending. The Gulf-worker
aka Gulfee has done no wrong. There must be close to 500,000 people of Goan
origin earning/living in the Gulf/Middle East. And several thousand more
tarvottis aka Shippies. With such a large segment of the population,
condescension maybe out of place.

I think your assertions about Cecil Pinto are misplaced. Almost everybody
knows that Cecil Pinto is a humor columnist and to juxatpose what he writes
with Carmo (for example) would be absurd. Cecil enjoys bringing a smile and
chortles to his readers. I'm sure you too enjoyed his latest piece on Goan
Eating Etiquette. There are several Gulfies subscribed here and who
participate. Didn't see anybody throw a fit. Similarly it would be improper
for anybody to overly scrutinize your below post made in zest:

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055079.html
Post by Carvalho
I wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society.
RESPONSE: Get the ball rolling and hope the discussion catches on. That
certainly is a fertile pool for a sociologist's dissertation.

As far as Sunith is concerned he has been pretty clear from his earliest
messages on this thread that the problem with Goan education lay with
students who had no motivation / poor aspirations. And yes he did go on to
describe some of those aspirations.

This popped into my mailbox today. An article on Goan youth at the beach.
Ofcourse some will blame the Catholic priests, others will blame the
politicians and still others will blame the Goan education
system........there is plenty of blame to go around.....oh yeah and some may
blame expats too. Few want to pull up their own socks.

"Most boys in our age group drop out after class seven or eight, for they
realise that going to school doesn't really guarantee them good jobs," said
Joseph."

"Most of the group felt that getting a driving licence (and someday, a taxi
of their own) would take them further away from poverty than an education
would. Another option local boys often dreamt of, was shipping. "Ten months
on a ship, and you can earn enough to build your own home in the village!"
said Thomas."

The entire article can be found at :

http://www.business-standard.com/opinionanalysis/storypage.php?leftnm=4&subLeft=2&chklogin=N&autono=277201&tab=r


So IMO as far as Cecil and Sunith are concerned on this thread, you're
shooting blanks.

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-16 05:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
------------------------------
Dear Cornel,

Oddly enough my humourous take on the stratification
and segmentation of Goan society, prompted many Goanet
readers to write to me and acknowledge that while they
had a good laugh, it was also spot on the money.

Whether we like to admit it or not, Goan society is
unnecessarily divided along several barriers. I hasten
to add here, that almost all societies are segmented
mostly along economic lines but this is compounded in
Goa, when one is further fragmented with a number of
cultural and social barriers.

In this regard, the Arabs are rather remarkable. Islam
was one of the earlier religions based on the concept
of equality. Their mosques are a testimony to this.
They don't have any seating and a prince can likely
end up praying next to a pauper. The boss will think
nothing of breaking fast with the office-boy, during
Ramadan even sharing the same plate. Islam also
introduced the concept of The Majlis. A place where
the common man could address his queries with the
tribal leader or sheikh (this concept still exists in
the Sheikdoms of the Gulf).

I have no doubt, that in time Goa will become more of
a melting pot, more tolerant of ethnic, social and
cultural difference. But that day has not come yet.

selma



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sonia gomes
2007-03-16 06:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Selma,

Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.

Regards,

Sonia do Rosario Gomes
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
But for the humbug generated by bogus caste
pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further,
in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is
actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been
deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's
premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for
the
Post by Carvalho
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is
a
Post by Carvalho
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this
disdain
Post by Carvalho
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never
be a
Post by Carvalho
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or
how
Post by Carvalho
many fishing export units he may set up. Come
marriage
Post by Carvalho
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to
be
Post by Carvalho
shunned.
selma
__________________________________________________________
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Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 12:33:45 UTC
Permalink
I read Jerry Fernandes' post, and as I analyze it, there is little difference from the message from Carmo.

Both emphasize the need for discipline, education and perseverance as young Goans are trained by THEIR parents, schools and colleges. This will break down caste, class, social and economic barriers. Jerry ani Carmo also emphasize the need to creat GOOD jobs IN Goa.

So next time native Goans protest economic progress and tourists developments projects in Goa, I hope both, together with Selma and others will join forces. They should ASK the naysayers (with jobs) about their own proposals to create the thousands of NEW jobs every year to employ the young Goans graduating from high schools and colleges. The taxes collected from these new enterprises will also pay of the wonderful things Goans rightly demand like better schools, hospitals, electricity, water, roads, garbage disposal etc.

It is great and easy to criticize, especially sitting on a high chair or in a balcao sipping on scotch or feni.
Kind Regards, GL

---------------- Jerry Fernandes wrote:

Hi, I do support Selma in her mails. Caste system has been in India for centuries ... And hence we see, that these divisions persisted to even now. Now the new castes have arisen, and created by the wealthy, who call those have not as gulfies, tarvotis and pett carring, crate carrying and what not. Jobs being scarce in Goa, people move about to hunt for jobs, and will stay where ever possible.

And sitting on high chairs are accusing those Goans who leave Goa for jobs to different places. At least education during those days was better, now lying in shambles. It was rare to hear of tution classes than, which is a flourishing business. There are no counseling classes for SSC to guide the students to take the right direction and hence students follow their friends, and will take courses whichever their friends take.

No wonder many give up education after 5th std and than look for jobs in gulf or tarvar? Getting government job is a dream of many, but few attain it, and most cases its only the majority community. Hence the minority community move about as nomads looking for jobs and end up in Gulf to do the crate carrying jobs?


------------- CARMO DCRUZ wrote:
Subject: [Goanet] Higher Education/US degrees could be great Levellers in Stratified Goan Society

I think we have done the Goan Community A World of Good by Creating a Paradigm shift in their thinking - that there are more attractive career options if Goan Youngsters remain in College and get their degrees, rather than run off to the Gulf or the Ships after high school as Gulfies or Shippies. When Kharvi or Kunbi youth start graduating from college (including IITs) and start flying off to America on full scholarships or for high end jobs - we will see which Goans are questioning their Caste Stratifications upon their return ! Even Bamons, Chardos and others will make a beeline to their door steps with marriage proposals upon their return!

Education is a great Leveller ! American Education, Degrees and Careers will have a levelling impact on the caste stratifications of our Christao Goans! All for the Greater Good of our Beloved Goa !
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-10 19:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Frederick:

There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious derision directed
against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies". It's reminiscent of our erstwhile
foreign masters and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us Goans
as "Goanese". I have known many of these fine, pioneering sons and
daughters of our ancestor's soil. They are the salt of the earth. It's their
honest, humble toil and guts that has brought golden opportunities for
prosperity and prestige to many of their scions who are the thriving
"noveau riche" of today. I compare them with the legendary Argonauts of
Greek mythology. Undaunted by the risks and hardships of the unknown, the
hostilities encountered as aliens, the struggles of humble antecedents and
lack of formal education, these valiant people have persevered and
established themselves heroically. The fruits of their noble endeavors are a
predominance of the "arrives" we hobnob with in this day and age.
I'm proud and privileged to have known these brave, industrious pioneers who
have marvellously blazed the Trails to Glory for their fortunate
descendants. Their loyalty to family, innate patriotism and intrepid
sacrifices are an inspiration to all of us Goans. Importantly, their
monetary remittances and investments have made substantial contributions to
Goa's economy that could have turned moribund. True the Nonresident Goan's
inevitable ostentation and xenophiliia has raised the dander of the locals
frequently. However one can scarcely deny the expatriates have created a
new Westernized dimension in our culture that could prove serendipitiously
to be an "Open Sesame" to blend the old with the new. If you remember, the
conquistador Vasco Da Gama did that just that for Goa nearly 500 years
ago!!!.

Quoting Thomas Gray's Elegy written in a Country Courtyard, I would like to
cite in part what the great poet wrote in 1751:

Let not ambition mock their useful toil;
Their homely joys, and destiny obscure;
Nor grandeur hear, with a disdainful smile,
The short and simple annals of the poor.

Around the turn of the 19th-20th Century, an exodus of Jewish immigrants
arrived in New York City to start life anew after fleeing pogroms and other
persecution. Many, including even children, worked in the garment industry
twelve hours a day, seven days a week. Paraphrasing their motto it ran
thus:" We'ill work our fingers to the bone and our backs into bows so that
our children can stand on our shoulders to challenge posterity". I believe
our Goan diaspora/denizens/seafarers embody the noble spirit of that
sanguine credo.

Cheers
Arnold
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-13 06:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious
derision directed against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies".
It's reminiscent of our erstwhile foreign masters
and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us
Goans as "Goanese".
RESPONSE: Hi Arnold. Nice to read you again albeit in this rather sordid
thread. You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees. It appears, the fact that Cecil writes a humour column escaped her,
while you just applauded his last column.

However, Dr Karmu (whatever that prefix indicates), took this issue to a new
low and began deriding all Goan Gulfies and Shippies as performing menial
labour. The man lacks any knowledge of his own people, notwithstanding the
prefix he carries around. In his pursuit to drown out all other thoughts he
is quick to flash his Eye-Eye-Tee credentials that mean very little on this
medium.

While we cannot arrange to have Attention Seekers tethered to the next Delta
II launch out of KSC in June, we need some thaumaturgy to treat this
disorder, here and now.

First it was the Kashti, then hockey, quickly followed by Eye-Eye-Tee and
now Purreekur. The man is going to lose it with or without an audience.

Selma on the other hand would be better off if she includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.

Remember, Roland called you the 'bard'. Looking forward to your rhyme. No
pressure!!

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-13 14:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma on the other hand would be better off if she
includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is
being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.
-----------------------------------
Dear Bosco,

I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum. I
wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society. Unfortunately, the
discussion did not focus on the causes of this issue
but veered off into further derision and name-calling,
at which point I stopped contributing to the
discussion.

Selma





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Sunith Velho
2007-03-13 15:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Bosco,

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic
community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum
to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in
the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.

She further inroduced the words "Gulfie" and "Shippie" into her posts, thus
giving K3+5garages+3BHK an outlet for his frustration.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda(who started this debate), Albert
or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from
the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent
coastal villages.

Regards
Sunith






You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees.
Carvalho
2007-03-14 14:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate
and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a
Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.
-------------------------------------
Dear Sunith,

Part of the folly of youth is its arrogance but the
charm of youth is its passion and exuberance. You are
beginning to display all of the former and none of the
later.

In your eagerness to disclose the chips on my
shoulder, you have failed to delve further into this
issue or even consider that there maybe underlying
causes to this stereotyping.

Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.

I believe this stratification makes us ashamed of
occupations seen as less than desirable and because we
Goans need the crutch of identifying people by some
measure other than their actual worth, we have now
extended these classifications to Gulfies and shippies
and any other "ies" we can find. That's my theory.

Now, I really have no wish to continue this debate
because, real substantive points are not being
discussed. Rather we are more interested in people's
insecurities and chips.

Incidentally, please don't act all innocent. You have
on several occasions repeatedly stated that all that
Gulf Goans are good for is setting up STD booths or
financing a taxi. This was said with derision,
although the way I see it, he's boosting the economy
by setting up small businesses.

Thank you,
selma



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Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-15 03:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Often the lack of motivation / school drop-out of the student stems from a well-meaning elder (parent, uncle / aunt or older brother / sister) assuring a youngster that they can be sponsored to go abroad and thus get out of a "bad system". The blame (and the only reason for the failure) is placed on "the system", absolving the youngsters on any responsibility. (See Gllenda's posts). A similar case was made by a well-meaning educationist on this thread - efforts and "perspiration" were not needed for success.

I recollect a premedical classmate of mine throw away his college-years by reassuring himself that his older brother in America was going to sponsor him, as soon as he finished college. Hence any success in Bombay would be "a waste". On the other hand, this supurlo Goenkar (moi) with no brother or uncle to provide security had to bust my own butt to achieve my success in my exams and career.

When the young student arrives in the real world, (in Goa, India or abroad), success continues to be distant. This is because they are not used to the mental and physical discipline. In fact often the sponsoring relative is blamed for not doing enough. These students often are at the bottom of the work-hierarchy (on the dock, cruise liner etc.); and with lack of education, skills and discipline continue to be there for the rest of their life.

Thus there is big difference between those with success leaving Goa and India and others, as we have seen in this discussion. The former carry traits of knowledge, education, training and most importantly a well-grounded discipline. I have often told my relatives on migration to USA and Canada, "Your challenges have not ended with immigration. They have only just begun." This likely provides Sunith with an answer to his question.
Kind Regards, GL

------------- Sunith Velho

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda (who started this debate), Albert or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent coastal villages.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-16 04:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Bosco,
I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum.
RESPONSE: I don't understand what it is you are defending. The Gulf-worker
aka Gulfee has done no wrong. There must be close to 500,000 people of Goan
origin earning/living in the Gulf/Middle East. And several thousand more
tarvottis aka Shippies. With such a large segment of the population,
condescension maybe out of place.

I think your assertions about Cecil Pinto are misplaced. Almost everybody
knows that Cecil Pinto is a humor columnist and to juxatpose what he writes
with Carmo (for example) would be absurd. Cecil enjoys bringing a smile and
chortles to his readers. I'm sure you too enjoyed his latest piece on Goan
Eating Etiquette. There are several Gulfies subscribed here and who
participate. Didn't see anybody throw a fit. Similarly it would be improper
for anybody to overly scrutinize your below post made in zest:

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055079.html
Post by Carvalho
I wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society.
RESPONSE: Get the ball rolling and hope the discussion catches on. That
certainly is a fertile pool for a sociologist's dissertation.

As far as Sunith is concerned he has been pretty clear from his earliest
messages on this thread that the problem with Goan education lay with
students who had no motivation / poor aspirations. And yes he did go on to
describe some of those aspirations.

This popped into my mailbox today. An article on Goan youth at the beach.
Ofcourse some will blame the Catholic priests, others will blame the
politicians and still others will blame the Goan education
system........there is plenty of blame to go around.....oh yeah and some may
blame expats too. Few want to pull up their own socks.

"Most boys in our age group drop out after class seven or eight, for they
realise that going to school doesn't really guarantee them good jobs," said
Joseph."

"Most of the group felt that getting a driving licence (and someday, a taxi
of their own) would take them further away from poverty than an education
would. Another option local boys often dreamt of, was shipping. "Ten months
on a ship, and you can earn enough to build your own home in the village!"
said Thomas."

The entire article can be found at :

http://www.business-standard.com/opinionanalysis/storypage.php?leftnm=4&subLeft=2&chklogin=N&autono=277201&tab=r


So IMO as far as Cecil and Sunith are concerned on this thread, you're
shooting blanks.

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-16 05:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
------------------------------
Dear Cornel,

Oddly enough my humourous take on the stratification
and segmentation of Goan society, prompted many Goanet
readers to write to me and acknowledge that while they
had a good laugh, it was also spot on the money.

Whether we like to admit it or not, Goan society is
unnecessarily divided along several barriers. I hasten
to add here, that almost all societies are segmented
mostly along economic lines but this is compounded in
Goa, when one is further fragmented with a number of
cultural and social barriers.

In this regard, the Arabs are rather remarkable. Islam
was one of the earlier religions based on the concept
of equality. Their mosques are a testimony to this.
They don't have any seating and a prince can likely
end up praying next to a pauper. The boss will think
nothing of breaking fast with the office-boy, during
Ramadan even sharing the same plate. Islam also
introduced the concept of The Majlis. A place where
the common man could address his queries with the
tribal leader or sheikh (this concept still exists in
the Sheikdoms of the Gulf).

I have no doubt, that in time Goa will become more of
a melting pot, more tolerant of ethnic, social and
cultural difference. But that day has not come yet.

selma



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sonia gomes
2007-03-16 06:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Selma,

Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.

Regards,

Sonia do Rosario Gomes
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
But for the humbug generated by bogus caste
pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further,
in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is
actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been
deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's
premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for
the
Post by Carvalho
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is
a
Post by Carvalho
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this
disdain
Post by Carvalho
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never
be a
Post by Carvalho
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or
how
Post by Carvalho
many fishing export units he may set up. Come
marriage
Post by Carvalho
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to
be
Post by Carvalho
shunned.
selma
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Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 12:33:45 UTC
Permalink
I read Jerry Fernandes' post, and as I analyze it, there is little difference from the message from Carmo.

Both emphasize the need for discipline, education and perseverance as young Goans are trained by THEIR parents, schools and colleges. This will break down caste, class, social and economic barriers. Jerry ani Carmo also emphasize the need to creat GOOD jobs IN Goa.

So next time native Goans protest economic progress and tourists developments projects in Goa, I hope both, together with Selma and others will join forces. They should ASK the naysayers (with jobs) about their own proposals to create the thousands of NEW jobs every year to employ the young Goans graduating from high schools and colleges. The taxes collected from these new enterprises will also pay of the wonderful things Goans rightly demand like better schools, hospitals, electricity, water, roads, garbage disposal etc.

It is great and easy to criticize, especially sitting on a high chair or in a balcao sipping on scotch or feni.
Kind Regards, GL

---------------- Jerry Fernandes wrote:

Hi, I do support Selma in her mails. Caste system has been in India for centuries ... And hence we see, that these divisions persisted to even now. Now the new castes have arisen, and created by the wealthy, who call those have not as gulfies, tarvotis and pett carring, crate carrying and what not. Jobs being scarce in Goa, people move about to hunt for jobs, and will stay where ever possible.

And sitting on high chairs are accusing those Goans who leave Goa for jobs to different places. At least education during those days was better, now lying in shambles. It was rare to hear of tution classes than, which is a flourishing business. There are no counseling classes for SSC to guide the students to take the right direction and hence students follow their friends, and will take courses whichever their friends take.

No wonder many give up education after 5th std and than look for jobs in gulf or tarvar? Getting government job is a dream of many, but few attain it, and most cases its only the majority community. Hence the minority community move about as nomads looking for jobs and end up in Gulf to do the crate carrying jobs?


------------- CARMO DCRUZ wrote:
Subject: [Goanet] Higher Education/US degrees could be great Levellers in Stratified Goan Society

I think we have done the Goan Community A World of Good by Creating a Paradigm shift in their thinking - that there are more attractive career options if Goan Youngsters remain in College and get their degrees, rather than run off to the Gulf or the Ships after high school as Gulfies or Shippies. When Kharvi or Kunbi youth start graduating from college (including IITs) and start flying off to America on full scholarships or for high end jobs - we will see which Goans are questioning their Caste Stratifications upon their return ! Even Bamons, Chardos and others will make a beeline to their door steps with marriage proposals upon their return!

Education is a great Leveller ! American Education, Degrees and Careers will have a levelling impact on the caste stratifications of our Christao Goans! All for the Greater Good of our Beloved Goa !
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-10 19:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Frederick:

There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious derision directed
against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies". It's reminiscent of our erstwhile
foreign masters and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us Goans
as "Goanese". I have known many of these fine, pioneering sons and
daughters of our ancestor's soil. They are the salt of the earth. It's their
honest, humble toil and guts that has brought golden opportunities for
prosperity and prestige to many of their scions who are the thriving
"noveau riche" of today. I compare them with the legendary Argonauts of
Greek mythology. Undaunted by the risks and hardships of the unknown, the
hostilities encountered as aliens, the struggles of humble antecedents and
lack of formal education, these valiant people have persevered and
established themselves heroically. The fruits of their noble endeavors are a
predominance of the "arrives" we hobnob with in this day and age.
I'm proud and privileged to have known these brave, industrious pioneers who
have marvellously blazed the Trails to Glory for their fortunate
descendants. Their loyalty to family, innate patriotism and intrepid
sacrifices are an inspiration to all of us Goans. Importantly, their
monetary remittances and investments have made substantial contributions to
Goa's economy that could have turned moribund. True the Nonresident Goan's
inevitable ostentation and xenophiliia has raised the dander of the locals
frequently. However one can scarcely deny the expatriates have created a
new Westernized dimension in our culture that could prove serendipitiously
to be an "Open Sesame" to blend the old with the new. If you remember, the
conquistador Vasco Da Gama did that just that for Goa nearly 500 years
ago!!!.

Quoting Thomas Gray's Elegy written in a Country Courtyard, I would like to
cite in part what the great poet wrote in 1751:

Let not ambition mock their useful toil;
Their homely joys, and destiny obscure;
Nor grandeur hear, with a disdainful smile,
The short and simple annals of the poor.

Around the turn of the 19th-20th Century, an exodus of Jewish immigrants
arrived in New York City to start life anew after fleeing pogroms and other
persecution. Many, including even children, worked in the garment industry
twelve hours a day, seven days a week. Paraphrasing their motto it ran
thus:" We'ill work our fingers to the bone and our backs into bows so that
our children can stand on our shoulders to challenge posterity". I believe
our Goan diaspora/denizens/seafarers embody the noble spirit of that
sanguine credo.

Cheers
Arnold
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-13 06:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious
derision directed against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies".
It's reminiscent of our erstwhile foreign masters
and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us
Goans as "Goanese".
RESPONSE: Hi Arnold. Nice to read you again albeit in this rather sordid
thread. You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees. It appears, the fact that Cecil writes a humour column escaped her,
while you just applauded his last column.

However, Dr Karmu (whatever that prefix indicates), took this issue to a new
low and began deriding all Goan Gulfies and Shippies as performing menial
labour. The man lacks any knowledge of his own people, notwithstanding the
prefix he carries around. In his pursuit to drown out all other thoughts he
is quick to flash his Eye-Eye-Tee credentials that mean very little on this
medium.

While we cannot arrange to have Attention Seekers tethered to the next Delta
II launch out of KSC in June, we need some thaumaturgy to treat this
disorder, here and now.

First it was the Kashti, then hockey, quickly followed by Eye-Eye-Tee and
now Purreekur. The man is going to lose it with or without an audience.

Selma on the other hand would be better off if she includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.

Remember, Roland called you the 'bard'. Looking forward to your rhyme. No
pressure!!

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-13 14:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma on the other hand would be better off if she
includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is
being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.
-----------------------------------
Dear Bosco,

I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum. I
wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society. Unfortunately, the
discussion did not focus on the causes of this issue
but veered off into further derision and name-calling,
at which point I stopped contributing to the
discussion.

Selma





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Sunith Velho
2007-03-13 15:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Bosco,

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic
community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum
to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in
the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.

She further inroduced the words "Gulfie" and "Shippie" into her posts, thus
giving K3+5garages+3BHK an outlet for his frustration.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda(who started this debate), Albert
or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from
the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent
coastal villages.

Regards
Sunith






You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees.
Carvalho
2007-03-14 14:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate
and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a
Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.
-------------------------------------
Dear Sunith,

Part of the folly of youth is its arrogance but the
charm of youth is its passion and exuberance. You are
beginning to display all of the former and none of the
later.

In your eagerness to disclose the chips on my
shoulder, you have failed to delve further into this
issue or even consider that there maybe underlying
causes to this stereotyping.

Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.

I believe this stratification makes us ashamed of
occupations seen as less than desirable and because we
Goans need the crutch of identifying people by some
measure other than their actual worth, we have now
extended these classifications to Gulfies and shippies
and any other "ies" we can find. That's my theory.

Now, I really have no wish to continue this debate
because, real substantive points are not being
discussed. Rather we are more interested in people's
insecurities and chips.

Incidentally, please don't act all innocent. You have
on several occasions repeatedly stated that all that
Gulf Goans are good for is setting up STD booths or
financing a taxi. This was said with derision,
although the way I see it, he's boosting the economy
by setting up small businesses.

Thank you,
selma



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Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-15 03:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Often the lack of motivation / school drop-out of the student stems from a well-meaning elder (parent, uncle / aunt or older brother / sister) assuring a youngster that they can be sponsored to go abroad and thus get out of a "bad system". The blame (and the only reason for the failure) is placed on "the system", absolving the youngsters on any responsibility. (See Gllenda's posts). A similar case was made by a well-meaning educationist on this thread - efforts and "perspiration" were not needed for success.

I recollect a premedical classmate of mine throw away his college-years by reassuring himself that his older brother in America was going to sponsor him, as soon as he finished college. Hence any success in Bombay would be "a waste". On the other hand, this supurlo Goenkar (moi) with no brother or uncle to provide security had to bust my own butt to achieve my success in my exams and career.

When the young student arrives in the real world, (in Goa, India or abroad), success continues to be distant. This is because they are not used to the mental and physical discipline. In fact often the sponsoring relative is blamed for not doing enough. These students often are at the bottom of the work-hierarchy (on the dock, cruise liner etc.); and with lack of education, skills and discipline continue to be there for the rest of their life.

Thus there is big difference between those with success leaving Goa and India and others, as we have seen in this discussion. The former carry traits of knowledge, education, training and most importantly a well-grounded discipline. I have often told my relatives on migration to USA and Canada, "Your challenges have not ended with immigration. They have only just begun." This likely provides Sunith with an answer to his question.
Kind Regards, GL

------------- Sunith Velho

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda (who started this debate), Albert or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent coastal villages.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-16 04:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Bosco,
I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum.
RESPONSE: I don't understand what it is you are defending. The Gulf-worker
aka Gulfee has done no wrong. There must be close to 500,000 people of Goan
origin earning/living in the Gulf/Middle East. And several thousand more
tarvottis aka Shippies. With such a large segment of the population,
condescension maybe out of place.

I think your assertions about Cecil Pinto are misplaced. Almost everybody
knows that Cecil Pinto is a humor columnist and to juxatpose what he writes
with Carmo (for example) would be absurd. Cecil enjoys bringing a smile and
chortles to his readers. I'm sure you too enjoyed his latest piece on Goan
Eating Etiquette. There are several Gulfies subscribed here and who
participate. Didn't see anybody throw a fit. Similarly it would be improper
for anybody to overly scrutinize your below post made in zest:

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055079.html
Post by Carvalho
I wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society.
RESPONSE: Get the ball rolling and hope the discussion catches on. That
certainly is a fertile pool for a sociologist's dissertation.

As far as Sunith is concerned he has been pretty clear from his earliest
messages on this thread that the problem with Goan education lay with
students who had no motivation / poor aspirations. And yes he did go on to
describe some of those aspirations.

This popped into my mailbox today. An article on Goan youth at the beach.
Ofcourse some will blame the Catholic priests, others will blame the
politicians and still others will blame the Goan education
system........there is plenty of blame to go around.....oh yeah and some may
blame expats too. Few want to pull up their own socks.

"Most boys in our age group drop out after class seven or eight, for they
realise that going to school doesn't really guarantee them good jobs," said
Joseph."

"Most of the group felt that getting a driving licence (and someday, a taxi
of their own) would take them further away from poverty than an education
would. Another option local boys often dreamt of, was shipping. "Ten months
on a ship, and you can earn enough to build your own home in the village!"
said Thomas."

The entire article can be found at :

http://www.business-standard.com/opinionanalysis/storypage.php?leftnm=4&subLeft=2&chklogin=N&autono=277201&tab=r


So IMO as far as Cecil and Sunith are concerned on this thread, you're
shooting blanks.

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-16 05:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
------------------------------
Dear Cornel,

Oddly enough my humourous take on the stratification
and segmentation of Goan society, prompted many Goanet
readers to write to me and acknowledge that while they
had a good laugh, it was also spot on the money.

Whether we like to admit it or not, Goan society is
unnecessarily divided along several barriers. I hasten
to add here, that almost all societies are segmented
mostly along economic lines but this is compounded in
Goa, when one is further fragmented with a number of
cultural and social barriers.

In this regard, the Arabs are rather remarkable. Islam
was one of the earlier religions based on the concept
of equality. Their mosques are a testimony to this.
They don't have any seating and a prince can likely
end up praying next to a pauper. The boss will think
nothing of breaking fast with the office-boy, during
Ramadan even sharing the same plate. Islam also
introduced the concept of The Majlis. A place where
the common man could address his queries with the
tribal leader or sheikh (this concept still exists in
the Sheikdoms of the Gulf).

I have no doubt, that in time Goa will become more of
a melting pot, more tolerant of ethnic, social and
cultural difference. But that day has not come yet.

selma



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sonia gomes
2007-03-16 06:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Selma,

Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.

Regards,

Sonia do Rosario Gomes
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
But for the humbug generated by bogus caste
pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further,
in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is
actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been
deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's
premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for
the
Post by Carvalho
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is
a
Post by Carvalho
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this
disdain
Post by Carvalho
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never
be a
Post by Carvalho
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or
how
Post by Carvalho
many fishing export units he may set up. Come
marriage
Post by Carvalho
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to
be
Post by Carvalho
shunned.
selma
__________________________________________________________
Yahoo! India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new
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Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 12:33:45 UTC
Permalink
I read Jerry Fernandes' post, and as I analyze it, there is little difference from the message from Carmo.

Both emphasize the need for discipline, education and perseverance as young Goans are trained by THEIR parents, schools and colleges. This will break down caste, class, social and economic barriers. Jerry ani Carmo also emphasize the need to creat GOOD jobs IN Goa.

So next time native Goans protest economic progress and tourists developments projects in Goa, I hope both, together with Selma and others will join forces. They should ASK the naysayers (with jobs) about their own proposals to create the thousands of NEW jobs every year to employ the young Goans graduating from high schools and colleges. The taxes collected from these new enterprises will also pay of the wonderful things Goans rightly demand like better schools, hospitals, electricity, water, roads, garbage disposal etc.

It is great and easy to criticize, especially sitting on a high chair or in a balcao sipping on scotch or feni.
Kind Regards, GL

---------------- Jerry Fernandes wrote:

Hi, I do support Selma in her mails. Caste system has been in India for centuries ... And hence we see, that these divisions persisted to even now. Now the new castes have arisen, and created by the wealthy, who call those have not as gulfies, tarvotis and pett carring, crate carrying and what not. Jobs being scarce in Goa, people move about to hunt for jobs, and will stay where ever possible.

And sitting on high chairs are accusing those Goans who leave Goa for jobs to different places. At least education during those days was better, now lying in shambles. It was rare to hear of tution classes than, which is a flourishing business. There are no counseling classes for SSC to guide the students to take the right direction and hence students follow their friends, and will take courses whichever their friends take.

No wonder many give up education after 5th std and than look for jobs in gulf or tarvar? Getting government job is a dream of many, but few attain it, and most cases its only the majority community. Hence the minority community move about as nomads looking for jobs and end up in Gulf to do the crate carrying jobs?


------------- CARMO DCRUZ wrote:
Subject: [Goanet] Higher Education/US degrees could be great Levellers in Stratified Goan Society

I think we have done the Goan Community A World of Good by Creating a Paradigm shift in their thinking - that there are more attractive career options if Goan Youngsters remain in College and get their degrees, rather than run off to the Gulf or the Ships after high school as Gulfies or Shippies. When Kharvi or Kunbi youth start graduating from college (including IITs) and start flying off to America on full scholarships or for high end jobs - we will see which Goans are questioning their Caste Stratifications upon their return ! Even Bamons, Chardos and others will make a beeline to their door steps with marriage proposals upon their return!

Education is a great Leveller ! American Education, Degrees and Careers will have a levelling impact on the caste stratifications of our Christao Goans! All for the Greater Good of our Beloved Goa !
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-10 19:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Frederick:

There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious derision directed
against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies". It's reminiscent of our erstwhile
foreign masters and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us Goans
as "Goanese". I have known many of these fine, pioneering sons and
daughters of our ancestor's soil. They are the salt of the earth. It's their
honest, humble toil and guts that has brought golden opportunities for
prosperity and prestige to many of their scions who are the thriving
"noveau riche" of today. I compare them with the legendary Argonauts of
Greek mythology. Undaunted by the risks and hardships of the unknown, the
hostilities encountered as aliens, the struggles of humble antecedents and
lack of formal education, these valiant people have persevered and
established themselves heroically. The fruits of their noble endeavors are a
predominance of the "arrives" we hobnob with in this day and age.
I'm proud and privileged to have known these brave, industrious pioneers who
have marvellously blazed the Trails to Glory for their fortunate
descendants. Their loyalty to family, innate patriotism and intrepid
sacrifices are an inspiration to all of us Goans. Importantly, their
monetary remittances and investments have made substantial contributions to
Goa's economy that could have turned moribund. True the Nonresident Goan's
inevitable ostentation and xenophiliia has raised the dander of the locals
frequently. However one can scarcely deny the expatriates have created a
new Westernized dimension in our culture that could prove serendipitiously
to be an "Open Sesame" to blend the old with the new. If you remember, the
conquistador Vasco Da Gama did that just that for Goa nearly 500 years
ago!!!.

Quoting Thomas Gray's Elegy written in a Country Courtyard, I would like to
cite in part what the great poet wrote in 1751:

Let not ambition mock their useful toil;
Their homely joys, and destiny obscure;
Nor grandeur hear, with a disdainful smile,
The short and simple annals of the poor.

Around the turn of the 19th-20th Century, an exodus of Jewish immigrants
arrived in New York City to start life anew after fleeing pogroms and other
persecution. Many, including even children, worked in the garment industry
twelve hours a day, seven days a week. Paraphrasing their motto it ran
thus:" We'ill work our fingers to the bone and our backs into bows so that
our children can stand on our shoulders to challenge posterity". I believe
our Goan diaspora/denizens/seafarers embody the noble spirit of that
sanguine credo.

Cheers
Arnold
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-13 06:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious
derision directed against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies".
It's reminiscent of our erstwhile foreign masters
and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us
Goans as "Goanese".
RESPONSE: Hi Arnold. Nice to read you again albeit in this rather sordid
thread. You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees. It appears, the fact that Cecil writes a humour column escaped her,
while you just applauded his last column.

However, Dr Karmu (whatever that prefix indicates), took this issue to a new
low and began deriding all Goan Gulfies and Shippies as performing menial
labour. The man lacks any knowledge of his own people, notwithstanding the
prefix he carries around. In his pursuit to drown out all other thoughts he
is quick to flash his Eye-Eye-Tee credentials that mean very little on this
medium.

While we cannot arrange to have Attention Seekers tethered to the next Delta
II launch out of KSC in June, we need some thaumaturgy to treat this
disorder, here and now.

First it was the Kashti, then hockey, quickly followed by Eye-Eye-Tee and
now Purreekur. The man is going to lose it with or without an audience.

Selma on the other hand would be better off if she includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.

Remember, Roland called you the 'bard'. Looking forward to your rhyme. No
pressure!!

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-13 14:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma on the other hand would be better off if she
includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is
being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.
-----------------------------------
Dear Bosco,

I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum. I
wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society. Unfortunately, the
discussion did not focus on the causes of this issue
but veered off into further derision and name-calling,
at which point I stopped contributing to the
discussion.

Selma





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Sunith Velho
2007-03-13 15:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Bosco,

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic
community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum
to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in
the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.

She further inroduced the words "Gulfie" and "Shippie" into her posts, thus
giving K3+5garages+3BHK an outlet for his frustration.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda(who started this debate), Albert
or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from
the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent
coastal villages.

Regards
Sunith






You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees.
Carvalho
2007-03-14 14:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate
and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a
Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.
-------------------------------------
Dear Sunith,

Part of the folly of youth is its arrogance but the
charm of youth is its passion and exuberance. You are
beginning to display all of the former and none of the
later.

In your eagerness to disclose the chips on my
shoulder, you have failed to delve further into this
issue or even consider that there maybe underlying
causes to this stereotyping.

Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.

I believe this stratification makes us ashamed of
occupations seen as less than desirable and because we
Goans need the crutch of identifying people by some
measure other than their actual worth, we have now
extended these classifications to Gulfies and shippies
and any other "ies" we can find. That's my theory.

Now, I really have no wish to continue this debate
because, real substantive points are not being
discussed. Rather we are more interested in people's
insecurities and chips.

Incidentally, please don't act all innocent. You have
on several occasions repeatedly stated that all that
Gulf Goans are good for is setting up STD booths or
financing a taxi. This was said with derision,
although the way I see it, he's boosting the economy
by setting up small businesses.

Thank you,
selma



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Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-15 03:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Often the lack of motivation / school drop-out of the student stems from a well-meaning elder (parent, uncle / aunt or older brother / sister) assuring a youngster that they can be sponsored to go abroad and thus get out of a "bad system". The blame (and the only reason for the failure) is placed on "the system", absolving the youngsters on any responsibility. (See Gllenda's posts). A similar case was made by a well-meaning educationist on this thread - efforts and "perspiration" were not needed for success.

I recollect a premedical classmate of mine throw away his college-years by reassuring himself that his older brother in America was going to sponsor him, as soon as he finished college. Hence any success in Bombay would be "a waste". On the other hand, this supurlo Goenkar (moi) with no brother or uncle to provide security had to bust my own butt to achieve my success in my exams and career.

When the young student arrives in the real world, (in Goa, India or abroad), success continues to be distant. This is because they are not used to the mental and physical discipline. In fact often the sponsoring relative is blamed for not doing enough. These students often are at the bottom of the work-hierarchy (on the dock, cruise liner etc.); and with lack of education, skills and discipline continue to be there for the rest of their life.

Thus there is big difference between those with success leaving Goa and India and others, as we have seen in this discussion. The former carry traits of knowledge, education, training and most importantly a well-grounded discipline. I have often told my relatives on migration to USA and Canada, "Your challenges have not ended with immigration. They have only just begun." This likely provides Sunith with an answer to his question.
Kind Regards, GL

------------- Sunith Velho

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda (who started this debate), Albert or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent coastal villages.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-16 04:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Bosco,
I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum.
RESPONSE: I don't understand what it is you are defending. The Gulf-worker
aka Gulfee has done no wrong. There must be close to 500,000 people of Goan
origin earning/living in the Gulf/Middle East. And several thousand more
tarvottis aka Shippies. With such a large segment of the population,
condescension maybe out of place.

I think your assertions about Cecil Pinto are misplaced. Almost everybody
knows that Cecil Pinto is a humor columnist and to juxatpose what he writes
with Carmo (for example) would be absurd. Cecil enjoys bringing a smile and
chortles to his readers. I'm sure you too enjoyed his latest piece on Goan
Eating Etiquette. There are several Gulfies subscribed here and who
participate. Didn't see anybody throw a fit. Similarly it would be improper
for anybody to overly scrutinize your below post made in zest:

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055079.html
Post by Carvalho
I wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society.
RESPONSE: Get the ball rolling and hope the discussion catches on. That
certainly is a fertile pool for a sociologist's dissertation.

As far as Sunith is concerned he has been pretty clear from his earliest
messages on this thread that the problem with Goan education lay with
students who had no motivation / poor aspirations. And yes he did go on to
describe some of those aspirations.

This popped into my mailbox today. An article on Goan youth at the beach.
Ofcourse some will blame the Catholic priests, others will blame the
politicians and still others will blame the Goan education
system........there is plenty of blame to go around.....oh yeah and some may
blame expats too. Few want to pull up their own socks.

"Most boys in our age group drop out after class seven or eight, for they
realise that going to school doesn't really guarantee them good jobs," said
Joseph."

"Most of the group felt that getting a driving licence (and someday, a taxi
of their own) would take them further away from poverty than an education
would. Another option local boys often dreamt of, was shipping. "Ten months
on a ship, and you can earn enough to build your own home in the village!"
said Thomas."

The entire article can be found at :

http://www.business-standard.com/opinionanalysis/storypage.php?leftnm=4&subLeft=2&chklogin=N&autono=277201&tab=r


So IMO as far as Cecil and Sunith are concerned on this thread, you're
shooting blanks.

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-16 05:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
------------------------------
Dear Cornel,

Oddly enough my humourous take on the stratification
and segmentation of Goan society, prompted many Goanet
readers to write to me and acknowledge that while they
had a good laugh, it was also spot on the money.

Whether we like to admit it or not, Goan society is
unnecessarily divided along several barriers. I hasten
to add here, that almost all societies are segmented
mostly along economic lines but this is compounded in
Goa, when one is further fragmented with a number of
cultural and social barriers.

In this regard, the Arabs are rather remarkable. Islam
was one of the earlier religions based on the concept
of equality. Their mosques are a testimony to this.
They don't have any seating and a prince can likely
end up praying next to a pauper. The boss will think
nothing of breaking fast with the office-boy, during
Ramadan even sharing the same plate. Islam also
introduced the concept of The Majlis. A place where
the common man could address his queries with the
tribal leader or sheikh (this concept still exists in
the Sheikdoms of the Gulf).

I have no doubt, that in time Goa will become more of
a melting pot, more tolerant of ethnic, social and
cultural difference. But that day has not come yet.

selma



____________________________________________________________________________________
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sonia gomes
2007-03-16 06:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Selma,

Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.

Regards,

Sonia do Rosario Gomes
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
But for the humbug generated by bogus caste
pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further,
in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is
actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been
deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's
premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for
the
Post by Carvalho
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is
a
Post by Carvalho
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this
disdain
Post by Carvalho
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never
be a
Post by Carvalho
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or
how
Post by Carvalho
many fishing export units he may set up. Come
marriage
Post by Carvalho
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to
be
Post by Carvalho
shunned.
selma
__________________________________________________________
Yahoo! India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new
http://in.answers.yahoo.com/
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 12:33:45 UTC
Permalink
I read Jerry Fernandes' post, and as I analyze it, there is little difference from the message from Carmo.

Both emphasize the need for discipline, education and perseverance as young Goans are trained by THEIR parents, schools and colleges. This will break down caste, class, social and economic barriers. Jerry ani Carmo also emphasize the need to creat GOOD jobs IN Goa.

So next time native Goans protest economic progress and tourists developments projects in Goa, I hope both, together with Selma and others will join forces. They should ASK the naysayers (with jobs) about their own proposals to create the thousands of NEW jobs every year to employ the young Goans graduating from high schools and colleges. The taxes collected from these new enterprises will also pay of the wonderful things Goans rightly demand like better schools, hospitals, electricity, water, roads, garbage disposal etc.

It is great and easy to criticize, especially sitting on a high chair or in a balcao sipping on scotch or feni.
Kind Regards, GL

---------------- Jerry Fernandes wrote:

Hi, I do support Selma in her mails. Caste system has been in India for centuries ... And hence we see, that these divisions persisted to even now. Now the new castes have arisen, and created by the wealthy, who call those have not as gulfies, tarvotis and pett carring, crate carrying and what not. Jobs being scarce in Goa, people move about to hunt for jobs, and will stay where ever possible.

And sitting on high chairs are accusing those Goans who leave Goa for jobs to different places. At least education during those days was better, now lying in shambles. It was rare to hear of tution classes than, which is a flourishing business. There are no counseling classes for SSC to guide the students to take the right direction and hence students follow their friends, and will take courses whichever their friends take.

No wonder many give up education after 5th std and than look for jobs in gulf or tarvar? Getting government job is a dream of many, but few attain it, and most cases its only the majority community. Hence the minority community move about as nomads looking for jobs and end up in Gulf to do the crate carrying jobs?


------------- CARMO DCRUZ wrote:
Subject: [Goanet] Higher Education/US degrees could be great Levellers in Stratified Goan Society

I think we have done the Goan Community A World of Good by Creating a Paradigm shift in their thinking - that there are more attractive career options if Goan Youngsters remain in College and get their degrees, rather than run off to the Gulf or the Ships after high school as Gulfies or Shippies. When Kharvi or Kunbi youth start graduating from college (including IITs) and start flying off to America on full scholarships or for high end jobs - we will see which Goans are questioning their Caste Stratifications upon their return ! Even Bamons, Chardos and others will make a beeline to their door steps with marriage proposals upon their return!

Education is a great Leveller ! American Education, Degrees and Careers will have a levelling impact on the caste stratifications of our Christao Goans! All for the Greater Good of our Beloved Goa !
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-10 19:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Frederick:

There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious derision directed
against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies". It's reminiscent of our erstwhile
foreign masters and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us Goans
as "Goanese". I have known many of these fine, pioneering sons and
daughters of our ancestor's soil. They are the salt of the earth. It's their
honest, humble toil and guts that has brought golden opportunities for
prosperity and prestige to many of their scions who are the thriving
"noveau riche" of today. I compare them with the legendary Argonauts of
Greek mythology. Undaunted by the risks and hardships of the unknown, the
hostilities encountered as aliens, the struggles of humble antecedents and
lack of formal education, these valiant people have persevered and
established themselves heroically. The fruits of their noble endeavors are a
predominance of the "arrives" we hobnob with in this day and age.
I'm proud and privileged to have known these brave, industrious pioneers who
have marvellously blazed the Trails to Glory for their fortunate
descendants. Their loyalty to family, innate patriotism and intrepid
sacrifices are an inspiration to all of us Goans. Importantly, their
monetary remittances and investments have made substantial contributions to
Goa's economy that could have turned moribund. True the Nonresident Goan's
inevitable ostentation and xenophiliia has raised the dander of the locals
frequently. However one can scarcely deny the expatriates have created a
new Westernized dimension in our culture that could prove serendipitiously
to be an "Open Sesame" to blend the old with the new. If you remember, the
conquistador Vasco Da Gama did that just that for Goa nearly 500 years
ago!!!.

Quoting Thomas Gray's Elegy written in a Country Courtyard, I would like to
cite in part what the great poet wrote in 1751:

Let not ambition mock their useful toil;
Their homely joys, and destiny obscure;
Nor grandeur hear, with a disdainful smile,
The short and simple annals of the poor.

Around the turn of the 19th-20th Century, an exodus of Jewish immigrants
arrived in New York City to start life anew after fleeing pogroms and other
persecution. Many, including even children, worked in the garment industry
twelve hours a day, seven days a week. Paraphrasing their motto it ran
thus:" We'ill work our fingers to the bone and our backs into bows so that
our children can stand on our shoulders to challenge posterity". I believe
our Goan diaspora/denizens/seafarers embody the noble spirit of that
sanguine credo.

Cheers
Arnold
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-13 06:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious
derision directed against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies".
It's reminiscent of our erstwhile foreign masters
and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us
Goans as "Goanese".
RESPONSE: Hi Arnold. Nice to read you again albeit in this rather sordid
thread. You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees. It appears, the fact that Cecil writes a humour column escaped her,
while you just applauded his last column.

However, Dr Karmu (whatever that prefix indicates), took this issue to a new
low and began deriding all Goan Gulfies and Shippies as performing menial
labour. The man lacks any knowledge of his own people, notwithstanding the
prefix he carries around. In his pursuit to drown out all other thoughts he
is quick to flash his Eye-Eye-Tee credentials that mean very little on this
medium.

While we cannot arrange to have Attention Seekers tethered to the next Delta
II launch out of KSC in June, we need some thaumaturgy to treat this
disorder, here and now.

First it was the Kashti, then hockey, quickly followed by Eye-Eye-Tee and
now Purreekur. The man is going to lose it with or without an audience.

Selma on the other hand would be better off if she includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.

Remember, Roland called you the 'bard'. Looking forward to your rhyme. No
pressure!!

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-13 14:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma on the other hand would be better off if she
includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is
being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.
-----------------------------------
Dear Bosco,

I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum. I
wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society. Unfortunately, the
discussion did not focus on the causes of this issue
but veered off into further derision and name-calling,
at which point I stopped contributing to the
discussion.

Selma





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Sunith Velho
2007-03-13 15:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Bosco,

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic
community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum
to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in
the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.

She further inroduced the words "Gulfie" and "Shippie" into her posts, thus
giving K3+5garages+3BHK an outlet for his frustration.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda(who started this debate), Albert
or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from
the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent
coastal villages.

Regards
Sunith






You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees.
Carvalho
2007-03-14 14:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate
and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a
Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.
-------------------------------------
Dear Sunith,

Part of the folly of youth is its arrogance but the
charm of youth is its passion and exuberance. You are
beginning to display all of the former and none of the
later.

In your eagerness to disclose the chips on my
shoulder, you have failed to delve further into this
issue or even consider that there maybe underlying
causes to this stereotyping.

Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.

I believe this stratification makes us ashamed of
occupations seen as less than desirable and because we
Goans need the crutch of identifying people by some
measure other than their actual worth, we have now
extended these classifications to Gulfies and shippies
and any other "ies" we can find. That's my theory.

Now, I really have no wish to continue this debate
because, real substantive points are not being
discussed. Rather we are more interested in people's
insecurities and chips.

Incidentally, please don't act all innocent. You have
on several occasions repeatedly stated that all that
Gulf Goans are good for is setting up STD booths or
financing a taxi. This was said with derision,
although the way I see it, he's boosting the economy
by setting up small businesses.

Thank you,
selma



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Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-15 03:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Often the lack of motivation / school drop-out of the student stems from a well-meaning elder (parent, uncle / aunt or older brother / sister) assuring a youngster that they can be sponsored to go abroad and thus get out of a "bad system". The blame (and the only reason for the failure) is placed on "the system", absolving the youngsters on any responsibility. (See Gllenda's posts). A similar case was made by a well-meaning educationist on this thread - efforts and "perspiration" were not needed for success.

I recollect a premedical classmate of mine throw away his college-years by reassuring himself that his older brother in America was going to sponsor him, as soon as he finished college. Hence any success in Bombay would be "a waste". On the other hand, this supurlo Goenkar (moi) with no brother or uncle to provide security had to bust my own butt to achieve my success in my exams and career.

When the young student arrives in the real world, (in Goa, India or abroad), success continues to be distant. This is because they are not used to the mental and physical discipline. In fact often the sponsoring relative is blamed for not doing enough. These students often are at the bottom of the work-hierarchy (on the dock, cruise liner etc.); and with lack of education, skills and discipline continue to be there for the rest of their life.

Thus there is big difference between those with success leaving Goa and India and others, as we have seen in this discussion. The former carry traits of knowledge, education, training and most importantly a well-grounded discipline. I have often told my relatives on migration to USA and Canada, "Your challenges have not ended with immigration. They have only just begun." This likely provides Sunith with an answer to his question.
Kind Regards, GL

------------- Sunith Velho

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda (who started this debate), Albert or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent coastal villages.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-16 04:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Bosco,
I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum.
RESPONSE: I don't understand what it is you are defending. The Gulf-worker
aka Gulfee has done no wrong. There must be close to 500,000 people of Goan
origin earning/living in the Gulf/Middle East. And several thousand more
tarvottis aka Shippies. With such a large segment of the population,
condescension maybe out of place.

I think your assertions about Cecil Pinto are misplaced. Almost everybody
knows that Cecil Pinto is a humor columnist and to juxatpose what he writes
with Carmo (for example) would be absurd. Cecil enjoys bringing a smile and
chortles to his readers. I'm sure you too enjoyed his latest piece on Goan
Eating Etiquette. There are several Gulfies subscribed here and who
participate. Didn't see anybody throw a fit. Similarly it would be improper
for anybody to overly scrutinize your below post made in zest:

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055079.html
Post by Carvalho
I wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society.
RESPONSE: Get the ball rolling and hope the discussion catches on. That
certainly is a fertile pool for a sociologist's dissertation.

As far as Sunith is concerned he has been pretty clear from his earliest
messages on this thread that the problem with Goan education lay with
students who had no motivation / poor aspirations. And yes he did go on to
describe some of those aspirations.

This popped into my mailbox today. An article on Goan youth at the beach.
Ofcourse some will blame the Catholic priests, others will blame the
politicians and still others will blame the Goan education
system........there is plenty of blame to go around.....oh yeah and some may
blame expats too. Few want to pull up their own socks.

"Most boys in our age group drop out after class seven or eight, for they
realise that going to school doesn't really guarantee them good jobs," said
Joseph."

"Most of the group felt that getting a driving licence (and someday, a taxi
of their own) would take them further away from poverty than an education
would. Another option local boys often dreamt of, was shipping. "Ten months
on a ship, and you can earn enough to build your own home in the village!"
said Thomas."

The entire article can be found at :

http://www.business-standard.com/opinionanalysis/storypage.php?leftnm=4&subLeft=2&chklogin=N&autono=277201&tab=r


So IMO as far as Cecil and Sunith are concerned on this thread, you're
shooting blanks.

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-16 05:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
------------------------------
Dear Cornel,

Oddly enough my humourous take on the stratification
and segmentation of Goan society, prompted many Goanet
readers to write to me and acknowledge that while they
had a good laugh, it was also spot on the money.

Whether we like to admit it or not, Goan society is
unnecessarily divided along several barriers. I hasten
to add here, that almost all societies are segmented
mostly along economic lines but this is compounded in
Goa, when one is further fragmented with a number of
cultural and social barriers.

In this regard, the Arabs are rather remarkable. Islam
was one of the earlier religions based on the concept
of equality. Their mosques are a testimony to this.
They don't have any seating and a prince can likely
end up praying next to a pauper. The boss will think
nothing of breaking fast with the office-boy, during
Ramadan even sharing the same plate. Islam also
introduced the concept of The Majlis. A place where
the common man could address his queries with the
tribal leader or sheikh (this concept still exists in
the Sheikdoms of the Gulf).

I have no doubt, that in time Goa will become more of
a melting pot, more tolerant of ethnic, social and
cultural difference. But that day has not come yet.

selma



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sonia gomes
2007-03-16 06:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Selma,

Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.

Regards,

Sonia do Rosario Gomes
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
But for the humbug generated by bogus caste
pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further,
in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is
actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been
deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's
premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for
the
Post by Carvalho
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is
a
Post by Carvalho
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this
disdain
Post by Carvalho
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never
be a
Post by Carvalho
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or
how
Post by Carvalho
many fishing export units he may set up. Come
marriage
Post by Carvalho
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to
be
Post by Carvalho
shunned.
selma
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Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 12:33:45 UTC
Permalink
I read Jerry Fernandes' post, and as I analyze it, there is little difference from the message from Carmo.

Both emphasize the need for discipline, education and perseverance as young Goans are trained by THEIR parents, schools and colleges. This will break down caste, class, social and economic barriers. Jerry ani Carmo also emphasize the need to creat GOOD jobs IN Goa.

So next time native Goans protest economic progress and tourists developments projects in Goa, I hope both, together with Selma and others will join forces. They should ASK the naysayers (with jobs) about their own proposals to create the thousands of NEW jobs every year to employ the young Goans graduating from high schools and colleges. The taxes collected from these new enterprises will also pay of the wonderful things Goans rightly demand like better schools, hospitals, electricity, water, roads, garbage disposal etc.

It is great and easy to criticize, especially sitting on a high chair or in a balcao sipping on scotch or feni.
Kind Regards, GL

---------------- Jerry Fernandes wrote:

Hi, I do support Selma in her mails. Caste system has been in India for centuries ... And hence we see, that these divisions persisted to even now. Now the new castes have arisen, and created by the wealthy, who call those have not as gulfies, tarvotis and pett carring, crate carrying and what not. Jobs being scarce in Goa, people move about to hunt for jobs, and will stay where ever possible.

And sitting on high chairs are accusing those Goans who leave Goa for jobs to different places. At least education during those days was better, now lying in shambles. It was rare to hear of tution classes than, which is a flourishing business. There are no counseling classes for SSC to guide the students to take the right direction and hence students follow their friends, and will take courses whichever their friends take.

No wonder many give up education after 5th std and than look for jobs in gulf or tarvar? Getting government job is a dream of many, but few attain it, and most cases its only the majority community. Hence the minority community move about as nomads looking for jobs and end up in Gulf to do the crate carrying jobs?


------------- CARMO DCRUZ wrote:
Subject: [Goanet] Higher Education/US degrees could be great Levellers in Stratified Goan Society

I think we have done the Goan Community A World of Good by Creating a Paradigm shift in their thinking - that there are more attractive career options if Goan Youngsters remain in College and get their degrees, rather than run off to the Gulf or the Ships after high school as Gulfies or Shippies. When Kharvi or Kunbi youth start graduating from college (including IITs) and start flying off to America on full scholarships or for high end jobs - we will see which Goans are questioning their Caste Stratifications upon their return ! Even Bamons, Chardos and others will make a beeline to their door steps with marriage proposals upon their return!

Education is a great Leveller ! American Education, Degrees and Careers will have a levelling impact on the caste stratifications of our Christao Goans! All for the Greater Good of our Beloved Goa !
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-10 19:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Frederick:

There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious derision directed
against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies". It's reminiscent of our erstwhile
foreign masters and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us Goans
as "Goanese". I have known many of these fine, pioneering sons and
daughters of our ancestor's soil. They are the salt of the earth. It's their
honest, humble toil and guts that has brought golden opportunities for
prosperity and prestige to many of their scions who are the thriving
"noveau riche" of today. I compare them with the legendary Argonauts of
Greek mythology. Undaunted by the risks and hardships of the unknown, the
hostilities encountered as aliens, the struggles of humble antecedents and
lack of formal education, these valiant people have persevered and
established themselves heroically. The fruits of their noble endeavors are a
predominance of the "arrives" we hobnob with in this day and age.
I'm proud and privileged to have known these brave, industrious pioneers who
have marvellously blazed the Trails to Glory for their fortunate
descendants. Their loyalty to family, innate patriotism and intrepid
sacrifices are an inspiration to all of us Goans. Importantly, their
monetary remittances and investments have made substantial contributions to
Goa's economy that could have turned moribund. True the Nonresident Goan's
inevitable ostentation and xenophiliia has raised the dander of the locals
frequently. However one can scarcely deny the expatriates have created a
new Westernized dimension in our culture that could prove serendipitiously
to be an "Open Sesame" to blend the old with the new. If you remember, the
conquistador Vasco Da Gama did that just that for Goa nearly 500 years
ago!!!.

Quoting Thomas Gray's Elegy written in a Country Courtyard, I would like to
cite in part what the great poet wrote in 1751:

Let not ambition mock their useful toil;
Their homely joys, and destiny obscure;
Nor grandeur hear, with a disdainful smile,
The short and simple annals of the poor.

Around the turn of the 19th-20th Century, an exodus of Jewish immigrants
arrived in New York City to start life anew after fleeing pogroms and other
persecution. Many, including even children, worked in the garment industry
twelve hours a day, seven days a week. Paraphrasing their motto it ran
thus:" We'ill work our fingers to the bone and our backs into bows so that
our children can stand on our shoulders to challenge posterity". I believe
our Goan diaspora/denizens/seafarers embody the noble spirit of that
sanguine credo.

Cheers
Arnold
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-13 06:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
There's been an unpleasant wave of frothy, invidious
derision directed against Goan "shippies" and "gulfies".
It's reminiscent of our erstwhile foreign masters
and their parvenu lackeys who arrogantly labelled us
Goans as "Goanese".
RESPONSE: Hi Arnold. Nice to read you again albeit in this rather sordid
thread. You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees. It appears, the fact that Cecil writes a humour column escaped her,
while you just applauded his last column.

However, Dr Karmu (whatever that prefix indicates), took this issue to a new
low and began deriding all Goan Gulfies and Shippies as performing menial
labour. The man lacks any knowledge of his own people, notwithstanding the
prefix he carries around. In his pursuit to drown out all other thoughts he
is quick to flash his Eye-Eye-Tee credentials that mean very little on this
medium.

While we cannot arrange to have Attention Seekers tethered to the next Delta
II launch out of KSC in June, we need some thaumaturgy to treat this
disorder, here and now.

First it was the Kashti, then hockey, quickly followed by Eye-Eye-Tee and
now Purreekur. The man is going to lose it with or without an audience.

Selma on the other hand would be better off if she includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.

Remember, Roland called you the 'bard'. Looking forward to your rhyme. No
pressure!!

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-13 14:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Selma on the other hand would be better off if she
includes a disclaimer at
the start of her messages indicating whether she is
being serious or silly.
Both are acceptable - one more than the other.
-----------------------------------
Dear Bosco,

I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum. I
wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society. Unfortunately, the
discussion did not focus on the causes of this issue
but veered off into further derision and name-calling,
at which point I stopped contributing to the
discussion.

Selma





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Sunith Velho
2007-03-13 15:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Bosco,

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic
community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum
to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in
the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.

She further inroduced the words "Gulfie" and "Shippie" into her posts, thus
giving K3+5garages+3BHK an outlet for his frustration.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda(who started this debate), Albert
or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from
the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent
coastal villages.

Regards
Sunith






You see, this brouhaha began with our dear Selma, yes the same one
who compared you to Dostoevsky, claiming that Cecil and Sunith derided
Gulfees.
Carvalho
2007-03-14 14:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
Unfortunately Selma turned this into a caste debate
and then a class debate
entirely fabricated from the chip (suspended by a
Fendi strap) that she
carries on her shoulder.
-------------------------------------
Dear Sunith,

Part of the folly of youth is its arrogance but the
charm of youth is its passion and exuberance. You are
beginning to display all of the former and none of the
later.

In your eagerness to disclose the chips on my
shoulder, you have failed to delve further into this
issue or even consider that there maybe underlying
causes to this stereotyping.

Goans have a long history of lack of respect for the
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is a
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this disdain
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never be a
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or how
many fishing export units he may set up. Come marriage
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to be
shunned.

I believe this stratification makes us ashamed of
occupations seen as less than desirable and because we
Goans need the crutch of identifying people by some
measure other than their actual worth, we have now
extended these classifications to Gulfies and shippies
and any other "ies" we can find. That's my theory.

Now, I really have no wish to continue this debate
because, real substantive points are not being
discussed. Rather we are more interested in people's
insecurities and chips.

Incidentally, please don't act all innocent. You have
on several occasions repeatedly stated that all that
Gulf Goans are good for is setting up STD booths or
financing a taxi. This was said with derision,
although the way I see it, he's boosting the economy
by setting up small businesses.

Thank you,
selma



____________________________________________________________________________________
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Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-15 03:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Often the lack of motivation / school drop-out of the student stems from a well-meaning elder (parent, uncle / aunt or older brother / sister) assuring a youngster that they can be sponsored to go abroad and thus get out of a "bad system". The blame (and the only reason for the failure) is placed on "the system", absolving the youngsters on any responsibility. (See Gllenda's posts). A similar case was made by a well-meaning educationist on this thread - efforts and "perspiration" were not needed for success.

I recollect a premedical classmate of mine throw away his college-years by reassuring himself that his older brother in America was going to sponsor him, as soon as he finished college. Hence any success in Bombay would be "a waste". On the other hand, this supurlo Goenkar (moi) with no brother or uncle to provide security had to bust my own butt to achieve my success in my exams and career.

When the young student arrives in the real world, (in Goa, India or abroad), success continues to be distant. This is because they are not used to the mental and physical discipline. In fact often the sponsoring relative is blamed for not doing enough. These students often are at the bottom of the work-hierarchy (on the dock, cruise liner etc.); and with lack of education, skills and discipline continue to be there for the rest of their life.

Thus there is big difference between those with success leaving Goa and India and others, as we have seen in this discussion. The former carry traits of knowledge, education, training and most importantly a well-grounded discipline. I have often told my relatives on migration to USA and Canada, "Your challenges have not ended with immigration. They have only just begun." This likely provides Sunith with an answer to his question.
Kind Regards, GL

------------- Sunith Velho

I only derided the lack of motivation of most youngsters of the Catholic community while at school and the tendency of certain members of this forum to blame the education system for that.

I pointed out that the opportunity to make money by doing menial labour in the Gulf or EUROPE was one of the prime reasons for this.

I still haven't got a response from Gllenda (who started this debate), Albert or Selma to my initial question as to why relatively poorer children from the hinterland regions of Goa outperform those from the more affluent coastal villages.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-16 04:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Bosco,
I was absolutely serious in my defense of the
Gulf-worker. I find it abhorrent that this
condescension exists for him in Goan society,
reflected and caricatured by writers on this forum.
RESPONSE: I don't understand what it is you are defending. The Gulf-worker
aka Gulfee has done no wrong. There must be close to 500,000 people of Goan
origin earning/living in the Gulf/Middle East. And several thousand more
tarvottis aka Shippies. With such a large segment of the population,
condescension maybe out of place.

I think your assertions about Cecil Pinto are misplaced. Almost everybody
knows that Cecil Pinto is a humor columnist and to juxatpose what he writes
with Carmo (for example) would be absurd. Cecil enjoys bringing a smile and
chortles to his readers. I'm sure you too enjoyed his latest piece on Goan
Eating Etiquette. There are several Gulfies subscribed here and who
participate. Didn't see anybody throw a fit. Similarly it would be improper
for anybody to overly scrutinize your below post made in zest:

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055079.html
Post by Carvalho
I wish, the discussion had dealt with the deeper issues
of why Goans find it hard to respect dignity of
labour, why Goans insist on creating stratification in
society where none should exist and why a negative
stereotype of the "Gulfie" that demeans everything we
should respect, such as hardwork and sacrifice has
arisen in our Goan society.
RESPONSE: Get the ball rolling and hope the discussion catches on. That
certainly is a fertile pool for a sociologist's dissertation.

As far as Sunith is concerned he has been pretty clear from his earliest
messages on this thread that the problem with Goan education lay with
students who had no motivation / poor aspirations. And yes he did go on to
describe some of those aspirations.

This popped into my mailbox today. An article on Goan youth at the beach.
Ofcourse some will blame the Catholic priests, others will blame the
politicians and still others will blame the Goan education
system........there is plenty of blame to go around.....oh yeah and some may
blame expats too. Few want to pull up their own socks.

"Most boys in our age group drop out after class seven or eight, for they
realise that going to school doesn't really guarantee them good jobs," said
Joseph."

"Most of the group felt that getting a driving licence (and someday, a taxi
of their own) would take them further away from poverty than an education
would. Another option local boys often dreamt of, was shipping. "Ten months
on a ship, and you can earn enough to build your own home in the village!"
said Thomas."

The entire article can be found at :

http://www.business-standard.com/opinionanalysis/storypage.php?leftnm=4&subLeft=2&chklogin=N&autono=277201&tab=r


So IMO as far as Cecil and Sunith are concerned on this thread, you're
shooting blanks.

- Bosco
Carvalho
2007-03-16 05:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
------------------------------
Dear Cornel,

Oddly enough my humourous take on the stratification
and segmentation of Goan society, prompted many Goanet
readers to write to me and acknowledge that while they
had a good laugh, it was also spot on the money.

Whether we like to admit it or not, Goan society is
unnecessarily divided along several barriers. I hasten
to add here, that almost all societies are segmented
mostly along economic lines but this is compounded in
Goa, when one is further fragmented with a number of
cultural and social barriers.

In this regard, the Arabs are rather remarkable. Islam
was one of the earlier religions based on the concept
of equality. Their mosques are a testimony to this.
They don't have any seating and a prince can likely
end up praying next to a pauper. The boss will think
nothing of breaking fast with the office-boy, during
Ramadan even sharing the same plate. Islam also
introduced the concept of The Majlis. A place where
the common man could address his queries with the
tribal leader or sheikh (this concept still exists in
the Sheikdoms of the Gulf).

I have no doubt, that in time Goa will become more of
a melting pot, more tolerant of ethnic, social and
cultural difference. But that day has not come yet.

selma



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sonia gomes
2007-03-16 06:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Selma,

Why does the Kharvi want to become a Bamon. If he owns
a dozen trawlers, he has truly done well for himself
and should enjoy his wealth. Why would he want
marriage proposals from impoverished Bamons, or the
Fundacao parties, they maybe quite boring.

Regards,

Sonia do Rosario Gomes
Post by Cornel DaCosta
Hi Selma
You are absolutely spot on regarding Catholic Goan
traditional derision of
many a person's occupation---particularly pertaining
to the examples you
provided.
But for the humbug generated by bogus caste
pretensions, the Catholic Goans
would have been a united
people rather than being seriously divided. Further,
in my view, but for the
absolute nonsense of racist caste belief that, is
actually accommodated by
the Church in Goa, Catholic Goans would have been
deemed a reasonably
intelligent people.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Sunith Velho" <sunith_v at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's
premiere mailing list,
estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan "shippies" and "gulfies"
Post by Carvalho
Goans have a long history of lack of respect for
the
Post by Carvalho
dignity of labour. Someone is a poder, someone is
a
Post by Carvalho
kharvi, someone is a raindar. I believe this
disdain
Post by Carvalho
comes because in India (Goa) occupations have been
linked to caste. A kharvi for instance can never
be a
Post by Carvalho
bamon, no matter how many trawlers he may own or
how
Post by Carvalho
many fishing export units he may set up. Come
marriage
Post by Carvalho
proposal time, or time to get invited to Fundacao
Oriente parties, he will still remain a kharvi to
be
Post by Carvalho
shunned.
selma
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Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 12:33:45 UTC
Permalink
I read Jerry Fernandes' post, and as I analyze it, there is little difference from the message from Carmo.

Both emphasize the need for discipline, education and perseverance as young Goans are trained by THEIR parents, schools and colleges. This will break down caste, class, social and economic barriers. Jerry ani Carmo also emphasize the need to creat GOOD jobs IN Goa.

So next time native Goans protest economic progress and tourists developments projects in Goa, I hope both, together with Selma and others will join forces. They should ASK the naysayers (with jobs) about their own proposals to create the thousands of NEW jobs every year to employ the young Goans graduating from high schools and colleges. The taxes collected from these new enterprises will also pay of the wonderful things Goans rightly demand like better schools, hospitals, electricity, water, roads, garbage disposal etc.

It is great and easy to criticize, especially sitting on a high chair or in a balcao sipping on scotch or feni.
Kind Regards, GL

---------------- Jerry Fernandes wrote:

Hi, I do support Selma in her mails. Caste system has been in India for centuries ... And hence we see, that these divisions persisted to even now. Now the new castes have arisen, and created by the wealthy, who call those have not as gulfies, tarvotis and pett carring, crate carrying and what not. Jobs being scarce in Goa, people move about to hunt for jobs, and will stay where ever possible.

And sitting on high chairs are accusing those Goans who leave Goa for jobs to different places. At least education during those days was better, now lying in shambles. It was rare to hear of tution classes than, which is a flourishing business. There are no counseling classes for SSC to guide the students to take the right direction and hence students follow their friends, and will take courses whichever their friends take.

No wonder many give up education after 5th std and than look for jobs in gulf or tarvar? Getting government job is a dream of many, but few attain it, and most cases its only the majority community. Hence the minority community move about as nomads looking for jobs and end up in Gulf to do the crate carrying jobs?


------------- CARMO DCRUZ wrote:
Subject: [Goanet] Higher Education/US degrees could be great Levellers in Stratified Goan Society

I think we have done the Goan Community A World of Good by Creating a Paradigm shift in their thinking - that there are more attractive career options if Goan Youngsters remain in College and get their degrees, rather than run off to the Gulf or the Ships after high school as Gulfies or Shippies. When Kharvi or Kunbi youth start graduating from college (including IITs) and start flying off to America on full scholarships or for high end jobs - we will see which Goans are questioning their Caste Stratifications upon their return ! Even Bamons, Chardos and others will make a beeline to their door steps with marriage proposals upon their return!

Education is a great Leveller ! American Education, Degrees and Careers will have a levelling impact on the caste stratifications of our Christao Goans! All for the Greater Good of our Beloved Goa !
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