Discussion:
Reason under fire in India
(too old to reply)
Marshall Mendonza
2012-04-25 15:58:03 UTC
Permalink
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.

** **

I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter and
I have the following observations / comments:****

**1. **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS is both odious and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.

**2. **Regarding the ?miracle?, believers and rationalists are entitled
to their respective opinions or beliefs. However, no one has the unfettered
right without the resultant responsibility to make allegations without
adducing evidence.****

**3. **In a civilised and democratic country every individual has the
right to protest provided it is done in a civilised and democratic manner
and within the confines of law. I do not see the CSF or the other
organisations named in the report deviating from these norms.****

**4. **It is interesting that Santosh calls the filing of criminal
cases by the CSF and others against *Sanal Edamaruku as ?persecution? but
has in the past referred to the numerous attacks on Christians as
?victimhood? . *****

**5. **I am appending extracts of the CSF newsletter which puts the
entire issue in perspective. I am also providing youtube links of the
debate that took place on TV9 Channel.



I leave it to you Goanetters to decide whom to take seriously.****

** **

Regards****

** **

Marshall****

** **

*The CSF *****

*The case of the 'Dripping Crucifix' was in the news again recently with
the Mumbai Police calling Sanal Edamaruku, a self-proclaimed "rationalist"
to record his statement on complaints filed against him for hurting
religious sentiments. This he did live on TV twice, videos of which are
available with The CSF, which along with others is being blamed for curbing
his freedom of expression. What is not known is, what exactly Sanal
Edamaruku said, that caused the community to react so strongly.*****

The CSF is all freedom of expression, but not for the right to ridicule,
abuse, mock or poke fun at any faith or the clergy and followers of any
religion. *Sanal Edamaruku says he "faces persecution from the Catholic
church" as per his blog, though apart from issuing a clarification, the
Catholic Church has ignored him.* Rather, it was NGOs and individuals, many
of whom were non-Christians, which took up cudgels, in public interest.****

*The issue relates water observed to be dripping from a Crucifix in Irla of
suburban Mumbai, for no logically explainable reason. This fact was
captured on television, by cameras and witnessed by police and thousands,
who flocked to the spot. The CSF called it an unexplainable phenomenon and
challenged anyone to replicate the extraordinary happening. Or provide some
rationale or explanation for it. Even the media, present in large numbers
could not provide answers and publicly said so.*****

*The capillary action theory proposed by Sanal Edamaruku cannot according
to The CSF be replicated to raise water from the ground, through a concrete
base, on to a wooden cross, across a nail and drip the water from a
Crucifix, standing almost 7 feet above the ground. There is also no source
of water anywhere nearby or connected to the Crucifix on that bright sunny
day.*

On 5th March, 2012, when the extra-ordinary happened, a TV channel telecast
the occurrence. The media mentioned the non-Christian lady, who first
noticed it, residents and witnesses, like the parish priest, Fr. Vincent
Palett, Judith Monteiro, Gordon Jacobs, etc. The TV channel had Sanal
Edamaruku speaking live from Delhi, who based his observations purely on
hearsay, not having seen the dripping Crucifix himself. During the course
of the program, he made several objectionable and religiously offensive
statements, which many, like the Association of Concerned Catholics (AoCC),
Maharashtra Christian Youth Forum (MCYF), etc. besides The CSF took offense
too.

The activists and residents gave Sanal Edamaruku, ample opportunity to
apologize, as he had hurt the religious sentiments of Christians, by his
public statements in the mass media. He not only vehemently refused to
accede to their requests, but on the contrary added insult to injury by
making even more hurting remarks, there and also on a subsequent television
program. *His very obvious and stridently anti-Christian bias compelled me,
as general secretary of The CSF, to file the first FIR on 11th March, 2012
at the MIDC Police Station, as we were convinced of his malicious intention
to insult the faith, the clergy and hierarchy.*

*Please find some points raised in my FIR complaint with the police, based
on Sanal Edamaruku's public comments. It clearly exposes his blatant
anti-Catholic and also anti-religion stance. He is a self-confessed
atheist, who pokes fun and is generous in his derogatory remarks on various
religions, which comes through clearly in the video recordings.* ****

We leave it to you to decide, whether a person making such statements
should be allowed to go scot free, without even an enquiry. How would
believers of other faiths, like Islam or Buddhism have reacted to the
remarks presented below?**

* Sanal Edamaruku's Offensive Statements Recorded, which Hurt Christian
Sentiments*

*1. Christian clergy under the pretext of religion, regularly manufacture
miracles, on the basis of which they collect money.*
* *
*2. The clergy uses monies thus collected to build newer and bigger
churches. This is one such tamasha of many that are existing.*
* *
*3. There is a distinct possibility that the Christians made a hole in the
head of the Jesus statue, with an outlet at the feet for the water.*
* *
*4. We are told that Christians are not idol worshipers, but incidents and
crucifixes like this, expose at least the Catholics as idol worshipers.*
* *
*5. Christians are leaving established churches & to halt the exodus or to
prevent churches from becoming empty, priests resort to such gimmicks.*
* *
*6. If Christ was killed on the Cross, then it is not a thing to be
worshipped. Does anyone worship the gun with which Gandhi was shot? Then
why should Christians worship the Cross?*
* *
*7. Mother Mary is always shown crying. Priests even spread rumours that
her tears of blood can be seen and then collect money, which is misused.*
* *
*8. The Pope is anti-science and believes in exorcising evil spirits or
black magic. You may watch such tricks, but don't give these Christians
money.*
* *
*9. In a human, there is blood and other body fluids like tears, urine,
saliva, etc. Here we don't have blood coming out? So what is this water
that is dripping?*
* *
*10. The clergy is promoting bogus miracles, taking advantage and cheating
the gullible, with the Church having an exploitative structure for these
tricks*
* *
*11. The Church has been the cause of maximum damage in the world, with its
many superstitions, blind beliefs, etc. which the priests promote as it
becomes necessary. *
* *
*12. Even the 'miracle' that decided Mother Teresa's case for sainthood was
a fake one. Almost every Church is full of such cheap tricks performed to
get money in God's name.*

*Bishop Agnelo Gracias: The Official Church Reaction*

Bishop Agnelo Gracias clarifying the Church's stand said that as a general
observation, ?The official Church is slow to attribute supernatural causes
to ?extra-ordinary? phenomena we observe in life. As far as possible, the
Church tries to see if such phenomena can be explained by natural causes.
Further, the Church does not pay too much attention to these extraordinary
phenomena, even though she accepts the possibility that God may intervene
in human life in an extraordinary way ? what we often term a ?miraculous?
way.

On the ?dripping Crucifix?, Bishop Agnelo categorically stated that "one
can doubt if this water dripping has a supernatural cause. The Church has
NOT made any pronouncement on it. There is a lengthy scientific process
that has to be undergone before any official pronouncement is made. It is
quite possible that the dripping water may have a natural explanation.
However, what is surely objectionable are some statements made by the Delhi
interlocutor, Mr. Sanal Edamaruku and I would like to point out a couple of
these erroneous assertions:

* Contrary to the interlocutor?s claim, the Church does not advocate the
worship of images. There is a difference between honouring a thing and
making it divine, something to be worshipped. We respect and honour the
Scriptures of any religion not because the books are in themselves divine,
but because they have a special significance for the adherents of that
religion. We honour a cross because it is for us a reminder of the love of
Jesus who died for us

* A second gratuitous assertion is that the dripping Cross has been created
by priests who are out to make money! This Cross is not on Church property
and the one who is alleged to have noticed the dripping water was not even
a Catholic. No money has been collected by any priest. And surely, priests
do not build churches with such money, as is claimed by the interlocutor.

* A third unwarranted statement is that the Pope or the Church is against
Science. The interlocutor would only have to go to Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia on the internet, to see the list of eminent Catholic
scientists and how the Church has supported scientific research, since the
emergence of the European universities in the Middle Ages. There is a
Pontifical Academy of Sciences, founded in 1603, which seeks to pay honour
to pure science, wherever it is found, to assure its freedom and to promote
its research.

Bishop Agnelo concludes, "I realize that the interlocutor has made these
and other unwarranted statements out of ignorance ? he is unaware of facts.
The least he could do would be to apologize to the Catholic community for
hurting it, even though it might be inadvertently".

*The Editor's Take and Real Issues Side-tracked*

*At no point in time, did any one, other than Sanal Edamaruku, for obvious
reasons, claim it to be a 'miracle', even though not just for the
witnesses, but also the media, police and municipal staff, could not
explain the phenomenon. A plausible explanation, which makes sense is still
elusive. The capillary action theory propounded by Sanal Edamaruku can be
debunked for many reasons.*****

*The wood of the Cross is dry and no evidence of water being absorbed is
seen. There is no direct source of water anywhere nearby to supply the
large quantity of water flowing over days. *It is to the credit of the
Catholics present there and quoted widely in the media, that they said that
it looked like a miracle, but only the Church after proper investigation
could come to that conclusion. Capillary action as described works only
with trees, which are alive and not through cemented blocks, which cover
the Crucifix, as is well known.

*Sanal Edamaruku is no technically qualified person and not being on the
spot for more than a few minutes, days after the occurrence, cannot claim
to have an answer to the happening. Faith is a personal matter and we are
content with it being so, not going into doctrinal or theological issues.
Sanal Edamaruku's comments on the Church expose his hatred and ill-will
against Catholicism and religion in general.*****

*The residents in my presence offered to dig the surroundings of the
?dripping Crucifix? and allow him to check it properly. However, he did not
want to do so. In the 10th March, 2012 debate on the same television
channel, he not only reiterated his earlier objectionable statements, but
even worse challenged the Archbishop to get into the witness box. *Hats off
to Bishop Agnelo for standing his ground, in the face of Sanal Edamaruku?s
provocative and irresponsible statements. The Bishop squarely asked for
proof of the Catholic Church's sanction or blessing of Mussolini?s or
Hitler's actions, which Sanal Edamaruku could not provide.

*The CSF would like to also ask - What stopped Sanal Edamaruku from
pursuing with the Police and authorities, to expose the cheating and tricks
by the Catholic Church, as he claims. On TV, he also speaks of Jesus
driving away with evil spirits, which he does not believe exists. Hence, he
does not believe as Christians do, that there can be evil spirits and
attributes ?possession? to psychiatric problems. He alleges that Indian
Catholics are ushering the Dark Ages in India.* The fact that he ignores
is, if he had said the same things to other faiths, like Islam, would he
have been allowed the same liberty, that the Christians afford him?

*The Constitution of India guarantees the freedom of faith - to preach,
practice and propagate one's religion. And it does not give any citizen the
right to insult the faith of another. Sanal Edamaruku refers to the Holy
Father disrespectfully as Mr. Pope, which is also not acceptable, as per
international protocol. He talks of Christianity having many blind beliefs
and superstitions, which according to him; we need to do away with.*

Finally, we have not been taking him on, simply because we believe in -
Praying for the Persecutors, Forgiving those who hurt us... *But there must
be rule of law. And the law, in the interest of social order and communal
harmony does not allow such persons unlimited freedom to abuse or ridicule.
The CSF will therefore let the law take its course.*****

*I am left with the impression that one needn?t send such persons to jail,
but rather to a mental asylum for treatment. And we rest our case here.*****

*Blessings and Respect,*****

*Your brother in Christ,*****

*Joseph Dias*****

** **

*Some time ago I had pointed out that the so-called "Catholic-Christian
Secular Forum (CSF)" based in Mumbai is not a secular forum at all, but
that it is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization similar to the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti because of its strident campaigns and threats
against literary freedom in fictional works of art such as "Da Vinci Code",
and its relentless engagement in sectarian religious propaganda through
hyperbolic websites such as http://www.persecutedchurch.org/ *

* *

*Now it turns out that this organization and other similar outfits are
persecuting an Indian rationalist named Sanal Edamaruku for exposing a fake
miracle in Mumbai, and for pointing out the obvious fact that such miracles
tend to be the ultimate scams (inclusive of the money raising kind) being
perpetrated on poor devout folk. The CSF and other similar organizations
have filed multiple criminal complaints and issued threats of dire
consequences against the outspoken Edamaruku, and have launched a
nationwide hate campaign against him through mass emails and other means. I
was forwarded one such email from the general secretary of "The CSF". *

* *

*Here is a news report regarding this hounding effort:*

* *

*
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/apr/150412-mumbai-Christian-forums-file-FIRS-after-IRA-chief-calls-miracle-water-a-scam.htm
*

* *

*The report also thankfully indicates that fortunately for the sake of
Indian secularism there may be some level-headed officers in the police
force in India who see through this charade for what it is.*

* *

*Here is an opinion editorial regarding this in Wired Magazine by the noted
American rationalist James Randi:*

* *

*http://www.wired.com/opinion/2012/04/reason-under-fire-in-india/ *

* *

*Cheers,*

* *

*Santosh*

* *

* *

* *
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-25 22:58:09 UTC
Permalink
I would like to correct the falsehoods being spread in the following post regarding what I have said about the so-called Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF). I have stated that the said forum is not a secular forum at all, and have told you why this is the case. I have also affirmed that the said forum ?is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization just like the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti in the following respects:

1. It has issued a threat and launched a hate propaganda campaign against an author who has written a fictional novel that it finds objectionable from its own parochial religious point of view.

2. It has?issued a threat, launched a hate propaganda campaign and?filed criminal charges under an outdated blasphemy law against a private citizen who exposed a fake miracle, and outspokenly expressed his constitutionally protected opinion on TV in a secular democracy.

3. It has persistently carried out inwardly focused religious propaganda campaigns creating the false impression that there is widespread persecution of its religion and religious institution in India under a website named "persecutedchurch.info".

Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is engaged in persecution of a private individual for merely expressing his opinion in public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against him through mass emails to members of its religious community, and by demanding criminal prosecution under?Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code of 1860. The accusatory mass email forwarded in the post below also shows a blatant emotional appeal to visceral religious outrage against one private citizen of India, as well as a?confused promotion of a miraculous explanation by resorting to an absurd denial of the well known physical phenomenon of capillary action, and the existence of a closed sewage water drainage gutter.?

Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: seculargoa at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:58 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.
** **
I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter and
I have the following observations / comments:****
**1.? ? **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS? is both odious and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.
?
DAN DRISCOLL
2012-04-26 13:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Post by Santosh Helekar
I would like to correct the falsehoods being spread in the following post
regarding what I have said about the so-called Catholic-Christian Secular
Forum (CSF). I have stated that the said forum is not a secular forum at
all, and have told you why this is the case. I have also affirmed that the
said forum is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization just like the
1. It has issued a threat and launched a hate propaganda campaign against
an author who has written a fictional novel that it finds objectionable
from its own parochial religious point of view.
2. It has issued a threat, launched a hate propaganda campaign and filed
criminal charges under an outdated blasphemy law against a private citizen
who exposed a fake miracle, and outspokenly expressed his constitutionally
protected opinion on TV in a secular democracy.
3. It has persistently carried out inwardly focused religious propaganda
campaigns creating the false impression that there is widespread
persecution of its religion and religious institution in India under a
website named "persecutedchurch.info".
Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is engaged in
persecution of a private individual for merely expressing his opinion in
public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against him through mass
emails to members of its religious community, and by demanding criminal
prosecution under Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code of 1860. The
accusatory mass email forwarded in the post below also shows a blatant
emotional appeal to visceral religious outrage against one private citizen
of India, as well as a confused promotion of a miraculous explanation by
resorting to an absurd denial of the well known physical phenomenon of
capillary action, and the existence of a closed sewage water drainage
gutter.
Cheers,
Santosh
----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: seculargoa at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:58 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.
** **
I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter
and
I have the following observations / comments:****
**1. **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS is both odious
and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and
is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison
is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation
like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.
DAN DRISCOLL
2012-04-26 13:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Post by Santosh Helekar
I would like to correct the falsehoods being spread in the following post
regarding what I have said about the so-called Catholic-Christian Secular
Forum (CSF). I have stated that the said forum is not a secular forum at
all, and have told you why this is the case. I have also affirmed that the
said forum is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization just like the
1. It has issued a threat and launched a hate propaganda campaign against
an author who has written a fictional novel that it finds objectionable
from its own parochial religious point of view.
2. It has issued a threat, launched a hate propaganda campaign and filed
criminal charges under an outdated blasphemy law against a private citizen
who exposed a fake miracle, and outspokenly expressed his constitutionally
protected opinion on TV in a secular democracy.
3. It has persistently carried out inwardly focused religious propaganda
campaigns creating the false impression that there is widespread
persecution of its religion and religious institution in India under a
website named "persecutedchurch.info".
Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is engaged in
persecution of a private individual for merely expressing his opinion in
public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against him through mass
emails to members of its religious community, and by demanding criminal
prosecution under Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code of 1860. The
accusatory mass email forwarded in the post below also shows a blatant
emotional appeal to visceral religious outrage against one private citizen
of India, as well as a confused promotion of a miraculous explanation by
resorting to an absurd denial of the well known physical phenomenon of
capillary action, and the existence of a closed sewage water drainage
gutter.
Cheers,
Santosh
----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: seculargoa at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:58 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.
** **
I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter
and
I have the following observations / comments:****
**1. **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS is both odious
and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and
is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison
is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation
like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.
DAN DRISCOLL
2012-04-26 13:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Post by Santosh Helekar
I would like to correct the falsehoods being spread in the following post
regarding what I have said about the so-called Catholic-Christian Secular
Forum (CSF). I have stated that the said forum is not a secular forum at
all, and have told you why this is the case. I have also affirmed that the
said forum is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization just like the
1. It has issued a threat and launched a hate propaganda campaign against
an author who has written a fictional novel that it finds objectionable
from its own parochial religious point of view.
2. It has issued a threat, launched a hate propaganda campaign and filed
criminal charges under an outdated blasphemy law against a private citizen
who exposed a fake miracle, and outspokenly expressed his constitutionally
protected opinion on TV in a secular democracy.
3. It has persistently carried out inwardly focused religious propaganda
campaigns creating the false impression that there is widespread
persecution of its religion and religious institution in India under a
website named "persecutedchurch.info".
Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is engaged in
persecution of a private individual for merely expressing his opinion in
public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against him through mass
emails to members of its religious community, and by demanding criminal
prosecution under Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code of 1860. The
accusatory mass email forwarded in the post below also shows a blatant
emotional appeal to visceral religious outrage against one private citizen
of India, as well as a confused promotion of a miraculous explanation by
resorting to an absurd denial of the well known physical phenomenon of
capillary action, and the existence of a closed sewage water drainage
gutter.
Cheers,
Santosh
----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: seculargoa at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:58 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.
** **
I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter
and
I have the following observations / comments:****
**1. **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS is both odious
and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and
is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison
is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation
like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.
DAN DRISCOLL
2012-04-26 13:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Post by Santosh Helekar
I would like to correct the falsehoods being spread in the following post
regarding what I have said about the so-called Catholic-Christian Secular
Forum (CSF). I have stated that the said forum is not a secular forum at
all, and have told you why this is the case. I have also affirmed that the
said forum is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization just like the
1. It has issued a threat and launched a hate propaganda campaign against
an author who has written a fictional novel that it finds objectionable
from its own parochial religious point of view.
2. It has issued a threat, launched a hate propaganda campaign and filed
criminal charges under an outdated blasphemy law against a private citizen
who exposed a fake miracle, and outspokenly expressed his constitutionally
protected opinion on TV in a secular democracy.
3. It has persistently carried out inwardly focused religious propaganda
campaigns creating the false impression that there is widespread
persecution of its religion and religious institution in India under a
website named "persecutedchurch.info".
Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is engaged in
persecution of a private individual for merely expressing his opinion in
public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against him through mass
emails to members of its religious community, and by demanding criminal
prosecution under Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code of 1860. The
accusatory mass email forwarded in the post below also shows a blatant
emotional appeal to visceral religious outrage against one private citizen
of India, as well as a confused promotion of a miraculous explanation by
resorting to an absurd denial of the well known physical phenomenon of
capillary action, and the existence of a closed sewage water drainage
gutter.
Cheers,
Santosh
----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: seculargoa at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:58 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.
** **
I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter
and
I have the following observations / comments:****
**1. **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS is both odious
and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and
is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison
is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation
like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.
DAN DRISCOLL
2012-04-26 13:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Post by Santosh Helekar
I would like to correct the falsehoods being spread in the following post
regarding what I have said about the so-called Catholic-Christian Secular
Forum (CSF). I have stated that the said forum is not a secular forum at
all, and have told you why this is the case. I have also affirmed that the
said forum is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization just like the
1. It has issued a threat and launched a hate propaganda campaign against
an author who has written a fictional novel that it finds objectionable
from its own parochial religious point of view.
2. It has issued a threat, launched a hate propaganda campaign and filed
criminal charges under an outdated blasphemy law against a private citizen
who exposed a fake miracle, and outspokenly expressed his constitutionally
protected opinion on TV in a secular democracy.
3. It has persistently carried out inwardly focused religious propaganda
campaigns creating the false impression that there is widespread
persecution of its religion and religious institution in India under a
website named "persecutedchurch.info".
Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is engaged in
persecution of a private individual for merely expressing his opinion in
public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against him through mass
emails to members of its religious community, and by demanding criminal
prosecution under Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code of 1860. The
accusatory mass email forwarded in the post below also shows a blatant
emotional appeal to visceral religious outrage against one private citizen
of India, as well as a confused promotion of a miraculous explanation by
resorting to an absurd denial of the well known physical phenomenon of
capillary action, and the existence of a closed sewage water drainage
gutter.
Cheers,
Santosh
----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: seculargoa at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:58 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.
** **
I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter
and
I have the following observations / comments:****
**1. **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS is both odious
and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and
is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison
is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation
like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2012-04-26 14:35:26 UTC
Permalink
My preliminary comments on this 'rancourous' stuff ....(Marshall
Mendonza) MM contra SH (Santosh Helekar)


[1] SH: .....the so-called "Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF)"
based in Mumbai is not a secular forum at all, but that it is a
medieval religious chauvinistic organization SIMILAR to the Hindu
Janajagruti Samiti

jc 1: As far as 'religious chauvinism' is concerned, SH has a point IF
(for instance) the CSF prevented free speech and an individual's right
to see movies like the DaVinci Code.
--

[2] Joseph Dias: Sanal Edamaruku refers to the Holy Father
disrespectfully as Mr. Pope, which is also not acceptable, as per
international protocol.

jc2: Nonsense!. Where can I find this 'international protocol', and
under which law is it BINDING on a non-Catholic?
--

[3] Joseph Dias: Sanal Edamaruku alleges that Indian Catholics are
ushering the Dark Ages in India.

jc3: I suggest that the above allegation would stick only to those
Indian Catholics who (for instance) prevented free speech and an
individual's right to see movies like the DaVinci Code.
--

[4]SH: Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is
engaged in PERSECUTION of a private individual for merely expressing
his opinion in public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against
him through mass emails to members of its religious community, and by
demanding criminal prosecution under Section 295A of the Indian Penal
Code of 1860.

jc4: I am not so sure IF the term 'persecution' is applied correctly
here....please se #5 & 6
--

[5] 295A. Deliberate and malicious acts INTENDED to outrage religious
feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.

jc5: It would be interesting how the INTENT would be proved.
--

[6] http://tinyurl.com/slander1 / http://tinyurl.com/slander3: Sanal
Edamaruku, president of the Indian Rationalists Association for
calling the incident a MONEY-MAKING racket on a TV channel

jc6: IF Mr. Sanal Edamaruku has evidence of 'MONEY-MAKING' relative to
this incident, he should present it. If he does not, he should
withdraw the canard or face civil prosecution for LIBEL/SLANDER.;
Unless, he presents the 'temporary insanity' defence.
--

[7] http://tinyurl.com/slander3: Sanal Edamaruku, head of the
rationalist association and a heroic fighter against superstitions and
religious bigotry in India, faces persecution from the CATHOLIC
CHURCH.

jc7: From the CATHOLIC CHURCH? How unrational is that?!


In conclusion:

a: The coiners of the term 'Catholic-Christian Secular Forum' would do
well by looking up the meaning of the word 'secular'.

b: Those who claim to be Catholic, would do well to note that this is
21st century. Many more Catholics know their rights than antes. This
nonsense which happened wrt 'Da Vinci code' is an insult to the
intelligence of many educated Catholics. Ironically, it appears that
at least ONE more Catholic saw the 'Da Vinci code' movie, than would
normally have. And that person, to the best of my knowledge, is still
a strong practising Catholic.

c: IF the CSF wishes to achieve an equitable and trustable status in
this world, I'd suggest that they consider the following: (1) replace
the word 'secular' in its title. It is quite oxymoronic as it stands
presently. (2) Concentrate on dealing with Catholic issues first esp
the Child Abuse scandal. IF it does, it will note how progressive the
Church's new position is. (3) While (and I know this for a fact) the
Catholic clergy esp the nuns are repeatedly targeted - esp in the NE
of India, this CSF presently disseminates unreasonable and
sensationalised accounts of incidents.(4) Catholic organisations would
do well to encourage young Catholics to study and work very very hard,
and to achieve the best they can.

d: Individuals like Sanal Edamaruku, who are supposed to be the head
of the rationalist association and alleged heroic fighter, should
consider engaging their heads before running their mouths or banging
on their keyboards. Slandering/Libeling others does not make one very
'heroic'. Only a coward will slander someone without proof. And let's
face it, we are not referring to "ancient" history here ... or to
"facts" which may have been 'shredded or otherwise destroyed". We are
talking about real time.

jc
Marshall Mendonza
2012-04-28 17:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Dan Driscoll:

Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.

Response:
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
Excerpts:

THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites. the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.

The Maharashtra police investigating the explosions, ridiculed as damn
squibs by Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackarey, have established that the ?Hindu
Bomb? was assembled in one of the rooms in the Sanatan Sanstha?s ashram in
Panvel. The Indian Express, in a report published on Monday, June 23, 2008,
has sounded an alarm over the mobilization of hard-line Hindu outfits,
notably the Sanatan Sanstha (initially known as Sanatan Bhartiya
Saunskrutik Sanstha), the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti and the newly launched
organisation called ?Dharmashakti Sena? whose inaugural rally in April
showed young men dressed in military uniform.

(Protecting Hinduism - Sanatan Style by Pradnya Gaonkar: Goan Observer 28th
June, 2008)

the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha, which works under its banner, had been
chargesheeted for their role in the Thane theatre blasts of June 2008. The
theatre was targeted as it was screening the period film Jodhaa Akbar,
which shows Emperor Akbar marrying a Hindu girl, which many right wing
organisations had protested against. It was also the organisation that was
later chargesheeted for its role in the 2009 Madgaon blast in Goa.
Modi is seen inviting and thanking the same organisation, which the then
Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare had urged the home department to ban.
It has also been confirmed that Karkare had sent a proposal in August 2008
to ban the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha just months before he was killed in the
26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, as reported earlier by TEHELKA.

http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/social-political-issues/4500-modi-let-outfit-chargesheeted-terror-attacks-hold-meeting-his-constituency.html

The Maharashtra police has recommended that the state government ban
right-wing groups including Sanatan Sanstha and Abhinav Bharat. The names
of both the groups came up during the investigations of the Goa and the
Malegaon blast cases.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-09-08/india/30130015_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhinav-bharat-blast-case

MARGAO: Six members of the Sanatan Sanstha, two of them now dead, are among
the 11 persons accused by the National Investigation Agency (NIA),
which is probing the the October 16, 2009 Margao bomb blast and planting of
explosives at Sancoale, of conspiring to wage war against India by
committing a terrorist act. NIA on Monday filed a 30-page
common chargesheet with 4,000 pages of supporting documents in the two
incidents at the court of principal session judge U V Bakre constituted as
special court.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/sanatan-sanstha/recent/3


NAVI MUMBAI: Right-wing Hindu outfit Sanatan Sanstha has reacted to state's
decision to ban it. Abhay Vartak, Sanstha's chief spokesperson, said the
government has made baseless allegations about the organization's "terror
links'', and added that they will legally fight any such ban.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-12/mumbai/28683538_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhay-vartak-ban

Regards,

Marshall
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-29 01:57:12 UTC
Permalink
I did not know that all this while Marshall Mendonza was a subscribed member of the right-wing Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF). I would sincerely urge him to quit his membership of that organization if he wants to retain any semblance of credibility from the secular standpoint, and save himself from embarrassment in the future, especially the next time a new Dan Brown movie is released. Besides everything else that I have told you about this organization, an organization that picks sides on the issue of violent religious extremism, propagating the belief that mass murder carried out by extremists of one religion in India is worse than that conducted by extremists of another religion, has a much more serious constitutional problem, amounting to a fundamental prejudice, or at the very least a bizarre psychosocial complex. Some time after the Mumbai terrorist attacks, the CSF claimed as part of its national campaign propaganda that those attacks
committed by Muslim extremists were not as bad as the communal riots caused by Hindu extremists in Orissa.?

I am also amused by this petulant email of Marshall to Dan Driscoll. I don't understand why he is so upset that Dan does not agree with him.?

What gives him this sense of self-righteousness and entitlement that other independent rational individuals are required to agree with him rather than make up their own minds or agree with someone else??

In a secular democratic country each person has the right to hold his/her own independent opinion. Indeed, if you read Dan's post it is clear that he had formed his own opinion regarding the Catholic-Christian Secular Forum much earlier from the incessant worthless rants that he received from its general secretary in his inbox. My posts merely confirmed his view. But even if he was persuaded by my arguments, why should that make Marshall so bitter and petulant as to try to force Dan into his own mental straitjacket? Why not accept the fact that your argument was unconvincing? You lost. Deal with it.

Indeed, I am fairly confident that there is not a single secular-minded independent thinker in this forum who believes that the CSF is a secular forum, irrespective of whether he/she believes that my comparing it to the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti (HJS) in terms of the three points that I have made, is fair or unfair. It is only the religious chauvinists or their sympathizers with a distorted view about secularism that would insist that it deserves the secular label. Moreover, most sensible people know that there is no moral equivalence between secularism and absence of terrorism or criminality. There is also no simple relationship between terrorism/criminality and any particular religion. Here is?a list of Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Sikh and Communist?organizations that have been banned by the National Investigation?Agency of India:

1. ? ? ?Babbar Khalsa International
2. ? ? ?Khalistan Commando Force
3. ? ? ?Khalistan Zindabad Force
4. ? ? ?International SikhYouth Federation
5. ? ? ?Lashkar-E-Taiba/Pasban-E-Ahle Hadis
6. ? ? ?Jaish-E-Mohammed/Tahrik-E-Furqan
7. ? ? ?Harkat-Ul-Mujahideen/Harkat-Ul-Ansar/Harkat-Ul-Jehad-E-Islami
8. ? ? ?Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen/Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen Pir Panjal Regiment
9. ? ? ?Al-Umar-Mujahideen
10. ? ? Jammu and Kashmir Islamic Front
11. ? ? United Liberation Front ofAssam (ULFA)
12. ? ? National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB)
13. ? ? People's LiberationArmy (PLA)
14. ? ? United National Liberation Front (UNLF)
15. ? ? People's Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK)
16. ? ? Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP)
17. ? ? KangleiYaol Kanba Lup (KYKL)
18. ? ? Manipur People's Liberation Front (MPLF)
19. ? ? AllTripuraTiger Force
20. ? ? National Liberation Front ofTripura
21. ? ? LiberationTigers ofTamil Eelam (LTTE)
22. ? ? Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI)
23. ? ? DeendarAnjuman
24. ? ? Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) - People's War, All
Its Formations and Front Organisations.
25. ? ? Maoist Communist Centre (MCC),All its Formations and Front Organisations
26. ? ? Al Badr
27. ? ? Jamiat-Ul-Mujahidden
28. ? ? Al-Qaida
29. ? ? Dukhtaran-E-Millat (DEM)
30. ? ? Tamil Nadu LiberationArmy (TNLA)
31. ? ? Tamil National RetrievalTroops (TNRT)
32. ? ? Akhil Bharat Nepali Ekta Samaj (ABNES)
33. ? ? Organisations listed in the Schedule to the U.N. Prevention and?Suppression of Terrorism (Implementaion of Security council?Resolutions) Order, 2007 made under section 2 of the United Nations?(Security Council) Act, 1947 (43 of 1947) and amended from time to?time
34. ? ? Communist Party of India (Maoist) all its formations and front organisations
35. ? ? Indian Mujahideen and all its formations and front organisations

Please see:?http://nia.gov.in/banned_org.aspx

I am also almost certain that most people would consider my comparison of CSF with HJS to be infinitely more appropriate than Marshall's comparison of me with the Nazi criminal Goebbels who collaborated in the Holocaust and the murder of 46 million men, women and children in Europe. Please see the quote below:

QUOTE
Santosh apparently believes like Goebbels that if he repeats a?falsehood a hundred times, soon people will start believing it as the?truth.
UNQUOTE
.......Marshall Mendonza?


Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 12:07 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites.? the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.
?
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-29 01:57:12 UTC
Permalink
I did not know that all this while Marshall Mendonza was a subscribed member of the right-wing Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF). I would sincerely urge him to quit his membership of that organization if he wants to retain any semblance of credibility from the secular standpoint, and save himself from embarrassment in the future, especially the next time a new Dan Brown movie is released. Besides everything else that I have told you about this organization, an organization that picks sides on the issue of violent religious extremism, propagating the belief that mass murder carried out by extremists of one religion in India is worse than that conducted by extremists of another religion, has a much more serious constitutional problem, amounting to a fundamental prejudice, or at the very least a bizarre psychosocial complex. Some time after the Mumbai terrorist attacks, the CSF claimed as part of its national campaign propaganda that those attacks
committed by Muslim extremists were not as bad as the communal riots caused by Hindu extremists in Orissa.?

I am also amused by this petulant email of Marshall to Dan Driscoll. I don't understand why he is so upset that Dan does not agree with him.?

What gives him this sense of self-righteousness and entitlement that other independent rational individuals are required to agree with him rather than make up their own minds or agree with someone else??

In a secular democratic country each person has the right to hold his/her own independent opinion. Indeed, if you read Dan's post it is clear that he had formed his own opinion regarding the Catholic-Christian Secular Forum much earlier from the incessant worthless rants that he received from its general secretary in his inbox. My posts merely confirmed his view. But even if he was persuaded by my arguments, why should that make Marshall so bitter and petulant as to try to force Dan into his own mental straitjacket? Why not accept the fact that your argument was unconvincing? You lost. Deal with it.

Indeed, I am fairly confident that there is not a single secular-minded independent thinker in this forum who believes that the CSF is a secular forum, irrespective of whether he/she believes that my comparing it to the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti (HJS) in terms of the three points that I have made, is fair or unfair. It is only the religious chauvinists or their sympathizers with a distorted view about secularism that would insist that it deserves the secular label. Moreover, most sensible people know that there is no moral equivalence between secularism and absence of terrorism or criminality. There is also no simple relationship between terrorism/criminality and any particular religion. Here is?a list of Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Sikh and Communist?organizations that have been banned by the National Investigation?Agency of India:

1. ? ? ?Babbar Khalsa International
2. ? ? ?Khalistan Commando Force
3. ? ? ?Khalistan Zindabad Force
4. ? ? ?International SikhYouth Federation
5. ? ? ?Lashkar-E-Taiba/Pasban-E-Ahle Hadis
6. ? ? ?Jaish-E-Mohammed/Tahrik-E-Furqan
7. ? ? ?Harkat-Ul-Mujahideen/Harkat-Ul-Ansar/Harkat-Ul-Jehad-E-Islami
8. ? ? ?Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen/Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen Pir Panjal Regiment
9. ? ? ?Al-Umar-Mujahideen
10. ? ? Jammu and Kashmir Islamic Front
11. ? ? United Liberation Front ofAssam (ULFA)
12. ? ? National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB)
13. ? ? People's LiberationArmy (PLA)
14. ? ? United National Liberation Front (UNLF)
15. ? ? People's Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK)
16. ? ? Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP)
17. ? ? KangleiYaol Kanba Lup (KYKL)
18. ? ? Manipur People's Liberation Front (MPLF)
19. ? ? AllTripuraTiger Force
20. ? ? National Liberation Front ofTripura
21. ? ? LiberationTigers ofTamil Eelam (LTTE)
22. ? ? Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI)
23. ? ? DeendarAnjuman
24. ? ? Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) - People's War, All
Its Formations and Front Organisations.
25. ? ? Maoist Communist Centre (MCC),All its Formations and Front Organisations
26. ? ? Al Badr
27. ? ? Jamiat-Ul-Mujahidden
28. ? ? Al-Qaida
29. ? ? Dukhtaran-E-Millat (DEM)
30. ? ? Tamil Nadu LiberationArmy (TNLA)
31. ? ? Tamil National RetrievalTroops (TNRT)
32. ? ? Akhil Bharat Nepali Ekta Samaj (ABNES)
33. ? ? Organisations listed in the Schedule to the U.N. Prevention and?Suppression of Terrorism (Implementaion of Security council?Resolutions) Order, 2007 made under section 2 of the United Nations?(Security Council) Act, 1947 (43 of 1947) and amended from time to?time
34. ? ? Communist Party of India (Maoist) all its formations and front organisations
35. ? ? Indian Mujahideen and all its formations and front organisations

Please see:?http://nia.gov.in/banned_org.aspx

I am also almost certain that most people would consider my comparison of CSF with HJS to be infinitely more appropriate than Marshall's comparison of me with the Nazi criminal Goebbels who collaborated in the Holocaust and the murder of 46 million men, women and children in Europe. Please see the quote below:

QUOTE
Santosh apparently believes like Goebbels that if he repeats a?falsehood a hundred times, soon people will start believing it as the?truth.
UNQUOTE
.......Marshall Mendonza?


Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 12:07 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites.? the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.
?
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-29 01:57:12 UTC
Permalink
I did not know that all this while Marshall Mendonza was a subscribed member of the right-wing Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF). I would sincerely urge him to quit his membership of that organization if he wants to retain any semblance of credibility from the secular standpoint, and save himself from embarrassment in the future, especially the next time a new Dan Brown movie is released. Besides everything else that I have told you about this organization, an organization that picks sides on the issue of violent religious extremism, propagating the belief that mass murder carried out by extremists of one religion in India is worse than that conducted by extremists of another religion, has a much more serious constitutional problem, amounting to a fundamental prejudice, or at the very least a bizarre psychosocial complex. Some time after the Mumbai terrorist attacks, the CSF claimed as part of its national campaign propaganda that those attacks
committed by Muslim extremists were not as bad as the communal riots caused by Hindu extremists in Orissa.?

I am also amused by this petulant email of Marshall to Dan Driscoll. I don't understand why he is so upset that Dan does not agree with him.?

What gives him this sense of self-righteousness and entitlement that other independent rational individuals are required to agree with him rather than make up their own minds or agree with someone else??

In a secular democratic country each person has the right to hold his/her own independent opinion. Indeed, if you read Dan's post it is clear that he had formed his own opinion regarding the Catholic-Christian Secular Forum much earlier from the incessant worthless rants that he received from its general secretary in his inbox. My posts merely confirmed his view. But even if he was persuaded by my arguments, why should that make Marshall so bitter and petulant as to try to force Dan into his own mental straitjacket? Why not accept the fact that your argument was unconvincing? You lost. Deal with it.

Indeed, I am fairly confident that there is not a single secular-minded independent thinker in this forum who believes that the CSF is a secular forum, irrespective of whether he/she believes that my comparing it to the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti (HJS) in terms of the three points that I have made, is fair or unfair. It is only the religious chauvinists or their sympathizers with a distorted view about secularism that would insist that it deserves the secular label. Moreover, most sensible people know that there is no moral equivalence between secularism and absence of terrorism or criminality. There is also no simple relationship between terrorism/criminality and any particular religion. Here is?a list of Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Sikh and Communist?organizations that have been banned by the National Investigation?Agency of India:

1. ? ? ?Babbar Khalsa International
2. ? ? ?Khalistan Commando Force
3. ? ? ?Khalistan Zindabad Force
4. ? ? ?International SikhYouth Federation
5. ? ? ?Lashkar-E-Taiba/Pasban-E-Ahle Hadis
6. ? ? ?Jaish-E-Mohammed/Tahrik-E-Furqan
7. ? ? ?Harkat-Ul-Mujahideen/Harkat-Ul-Ansar/Harkat-Ul-Jehad-E-Islami
8. ? ? ?Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen/Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen Pir Panjal Regiment
9. ? ? ?Al-Umar-Mujahideen
10. ? ? Jammu and Kashmir Islamic Front
11. ? ? United Liberation Front ofAssam (ULFA)
12. ? ? National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB)
13. ? ? People's LiberationArmy (PLA)
14. ? ? United National Liberation Front (UNLF)
15. ? ? People's Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK)
16. ? ? Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP)
17. ? ? KangleiYaol Kanba Lup (KYKL)
18. ? ? Manipur People's Liberation Front (MPLF)
19. ? ? AllTripuraTiger Force
20. ? ? National Liberation Front ofTripura
21. ? ? LiberationTigers ofTamil Eelam (LTTE)
22. ? ? Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI)
23. ? ? DeendarAnjuman
24. ? ? Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) - People's War, All
Its Formations and Front Organisations.
25. ? ? Maoist Communist Centre (MCC),All its Formations and Front Organisations
26. ? ? Al Badr
27. ? ? Jamiat-Ul-Mujahidden
28. ? ? Al-Qaida
29. ? ? Dukhtaran-E-Millat (DEM)
30. ? ? Tamil Nadu LiberationArmy (TNLA)
31. ? ? Tamil National RetrievalTroops (TNRT)
32. ? ? Akhil Bharat Nepali Ekta Samaj (ABNES)
33. ? ? Organisations listed in the Schedule to the U.N. Prevention and?Suppression of Terrorism (Implementaion of Security council?Resolutions) Order, 2007 made under section 2 of the United Nations?(Security Council) Act, 1947 (43 of 1947) and amended from time to?time
34. ? ? Communist Party of India (Maoist) all its formations and front organisations
35. ? ? Indian Mujahideen and all its formations and front organisations

Please see:?http://nia.gov.in/banned_org.aspx

I am also almost certain that most people would consider my comparison of CSF with HJS to be infinitely more appropriate than Marshall's comparison of me with the Nazi criminal Goebbels who collaborated in the Holocaust and the murder of 46 million men, women and children in Europe. Please see the quote below:

QUOTE
Santosh apparently believes like Goebbels that if he repeats a?falsehood a hundred times, soon people will start believing it as the?truth.
UNQUOTE
.......Marshall Mendonza?


Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 12:07 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites.? the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.
?
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-29 01:57:12 UTC
Permalink
I did not know that all this while Marshall Mendonza was a subscribed member of the right-wing Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF). I would sincerely urge him to quit his membership of that organization if he wants to retain any semblance of credibility from the secular standpoint, and save himself from embarrassment in the future, especially the next time a new Dan Brown movie is released. Besides everything else that I have told you about this organization, an organization that picks sides on the issue of violent religious extremism, propagating the belief that mass murder carried out by extremists of one religion in India is worse than that conducted by extremists of another religion, has a much more serious constitutional problem, amounting to a fundamental prejudice, or at the very least a bizarre psychosocial complex. Some time after the Mumbai terrorist attacks, the CSF claimed as part of its national campaign propaganda that those attacks
committed by Muslim extremists were not as bad as the communal riots caused by Hindu extremists in Orissa.?

I am also amused by this petulant email of Marshall to Dan Driscoll. I don't understand why he is so upset that Dan does not agree with him.?

What gives him this sense of self-righteousness and entitlement that other independent rational individuals are required to agree with him rather than make up their own minds or agree with someone else??

In a secular democratic country each person has the right to hold his/her own independent opinion. Indeed, if you read Dan's post it is clear that he had formed his own opinion regarding the Catholic-Christian Secular Forum much earlier from the incessant worthless rants that he received from its general secretary in his inbox. My posts merely confirmed his view. But even if he was persuaded by my arguments, why should that make Marshall so bitter and petulant as to try to force Dan into his own mental straitjacket? Why not accept the fact that your argument was unconvincing? You lost. Deal with it.

Indeed, I am fairly confident that there is not a single secular-minded independent thinker in this forum who believes that the CSF is a secular forum, irrespective of whether he/she believes that my comparing it to the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti (HJS) in terms of the three points that I have made, is fair or unfair. It is only the religious chauvinists or their sympathizers with a distorted view about secularism that would insist that it deserves the secular label. Moreover, most sensible people know that there is no moral equivalence between secularism and absence of terrorism or criminality. There is also no simple relationship between terrorism/criminality and any particular religion. Here is?a list of Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Sikh and Communist?organizations that have been banned by the National Investigation?Agency of India:

1. ? ? ?Babbar Khalsa International
2. ? ? ?Khalistan Commando Force
3. ? ? ?Khalistan Zindabad Force
4. ? ? ?International SikhYouth Federation
5. ? ? ?Lashkar-E-Taiba/Pasban-E-Ahle Hadis
6. ? ? ?Jaish-E-Mohammed/Tahrik-E-Furqan
7. ? ? ?Harkat-Ul-Mujahideen/Harkat-Ul-Ansar/Harkat-Ul-Jehad-E-Islami
8. ? ? ?Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen/Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen Pir Panjal Regiment
9. ? ? ?Al-Umar-Mujahideen
10. ? ? Jammu and Kashmir Islamic Front
11. ? ? United Liberation Front ofAssam (ULFA)
12. ? ? National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB)
13. ? ? People's LiberationArmy (PLA)
14. ? ? United National Liberation Front (UNLF)
15. ? ? People's Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK)
16. ? ? Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP)
17. ? ? KangleiYaol Kanba Lup (KYKL)
18. ? ? Manipur People's Liberation Front (MPLF)
19. ? ? AllTripuraTiger Force
20. ? ? National Liberation Front ofTripura
21. ? ? LiberationTigers ofTamil Eelam (LTTE)
22. ? ? Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI)
23. ? ? DeendarAnjuman
24. ? ? Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) - People's War, All
Its Formations and Front Organisations.
25. ? ? Maoist Communist Centre (MCC),All its Formations and Front Organisations
26. ? ? Al Badr
27. ? ? Jamiat-Ul-Mujahidden
28. ? ? Al-Qaida
29. ? ? Dukhtaran-E-Millat (DEM)
30. ? ? Tamil Nadu LiberationArmy (TNLA)
31. ? ? Tamil National RetrievalTroops (TNRT)
32. ? ? Akhil Bharat Nepali Ekta Samaj (ABNES)
33. ? ? Organisations listed in the Schedule to the U.N. Prevention and?Suppression of Terrorism (Implementaion of Security council?Resolutions) Order, 2007 made under section 2 of the United Nations?(Security Council) Act, 1947 (43 of 1947) and amended from time to?time
34. ? ? Communist Party of India (Maoist) all its formations and front organisations
35. ? ? Indian Mujahideen and all its formations and front organisations

Please see:?http://nia.gov.in/banned_org.aspx

I am also almost certain that most people would consider my comparison of CSF with HJS to be infinitely more appropriate than Marshall's comparison of me with the Nazi criminal Goebbels who collaborated in the Holocaust and the murder of 46 million men, women and children in Europe. Please see the quote below:

QUOTE
Santosh apparently believes like Goebbels that if he repeats a?falsehood a hundred times, soon people will start believing it as the?truth.
UNQUOTE
.......Marshall Mendonza?


Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 12:07 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites.? the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.
?
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-29 01:57:12 UTC
Permalink
I did not know that all this while Marshall Mendonza was a subscribed member of the right-wing Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF). I would sincerely urge him to quit his membership of that organization if he wants to retain any semblance of credibility from the secular standpoint, and save himself from embarrassment in the future, especially the next time a new Dan Brown movie is released. Besides everything else that I have told you about this organization, an organization that picks sides on the issue of violent religious extremism, propagating the belief that mass murder carried out by extremists of one religion in India is worse than that conducted by extremists of another religion, has a much more serious constitutional problem, amounting to a fundamental prejudice, or at the very least a bizarre psychosocial complex. Some time after the Mumbai terrorist attacks, the CSF claimed as part of its national campaign propaganda that those attacks
committed by Muslim extremists were not as bad as the communal riots caused by Hindu extremists in Orissa.?

I am also amused by this petulant email of Marshall to Dan Driscoll. I don't understand why he is so upset that Dan does not agree with him.?

What gives him this sense of self-righteousness and entitlement that other independent rational individuals are required to agree with him rather than make up their own minds or agree with someone else??

In a secular democratic country each person has the right to hold his/her own independent opinion. Indeed, if you read Dan's post it is clear that he had formed his own opinion regarding the Catholic-Christian Secular Forum much earlier from the incessant worthless rants that he received from its general secretary in his inbox. My posts merely confirmed his view. But even if he was persuaded by my arguments, why should that make Marshall so bitter and petulant as to try to force Dan into his own mental straitjacket? Why not accept the fact that your argument was unconvincing? You lost. Deal with it.

Indeed, I am fairly confident that there is not a single secular-minded independent thinker in this forum who believes that the CSF is a secular forum, irrespective of whether he/she believes that my comparing it to the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti (HJS) in terms of the three points that I have made, is fair or unfair. It is only the religious chauvinists or their sympathizers with a distorted view about secularism that would insist that it deserves the secular label. Moreover, most sensible people know that there is no moral equivalence between secularism and absence of terrorism or criminality. There is also no simple relationship between terrorism/criminality and any particular religion. Here is?a list of Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Sikh and Communist?organizations that have been banned by the National Investigation?Agency of India:

1. ? ? ?Babbar Khalsa International
2. ? ? ?Khalistan Commando Force
3. ? ? ?Khalistan Zindabad Force
4. ? ? ?International SikhYouth Federation
5. ? ? ?Lashkar-E-Taiba/Pasban-E-Ahle Hadis
6. ? ? ?Jaish-E-Mohammed/Tahrik-E-Furqan
7. ? ? ?Harkat-Ul-Mujahideen/Harkat-Ul-Ansar/Harkat-Ul-Jehad-E-Islami
8. ? ? ?Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen/Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen Pir Panjal Regiment
9. ? ? ?Al-Umar-Mujahideen
10. ? ? Jammu and Kashmir Islamic Front
11. ? ? United Liberation Front ofAssam (ULFA)
12. ? ? National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB)
13. ? ? People's LiberationArmy (PLA)
14. ? ? United National Liberation Front (UNLF)
15. ? ? People's Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK)
16. ? ? Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP)
17. ? ? KangleiYaol Kanba Lup (KYKL)
18. ? ? Manipur People's Liberation Front (MPLF)
19. ? ? AllTripuraTiger Force
20. ? ? National Liberation Front ofTripura
21. ? ? LiberationTigers ofTamil Eelam (LTTE)
22. ? ? Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI)
23. ? ? DeendarAnjuman
24. ? ? Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) - People's War, All
Its Formations and Front Organisations.
25. ? ? Maoist Communist Centre (MCC),All its Formations and Front Organisations
26. ? ? Al Badr
27. ? ? Jamiat-Ul-Mujahidden
28. ? ? Al-Qaida
29. ? ? Dukhtaran-E-Millat (DEM)
30. ? ? Tamil Nadu LiberationArmy (TNLA)
31. ? ? Tamil National RetrievalTroops (TNRT)
32. ? ? Akhil Bharat Nepali Ekta Samaj (ABNES)
33. ? ? Organisations listed in the Schedule to the U.N. Prevention and?Suppression of Terrorism (Implementaion of Security council?Resolutions) Order, 2007 made under section 2 of the United Nations?(Security Council) Act, 1947 (43 of 1947) and amended from time to?time
34. ? ? Communist Party of India (Maoist) all its formations and front organisations
35. ? ? Indian Mujahideen and all its formations and front organisations

Please see:?http://nia.gov.in/banned_org.aspx

I am also almost certain that most people would consider my comparison of CSF with HJS to be infinitely more appropriate than Marshall's comparison of me with the Nazi criminal Goebbels who collaborated in the Holocaust and the murder of 46 million men, women and children in Europe. Please see the quote below:

QUOTE
Santosh apparently believes like Goebbels that if he repeats a?falsehood a hundred times, soon people will start believing it as the?truth.
UNQUOTE
.......Marshall Mendonza?


Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 12:07 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites.? the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.
?
DAN DRISCOLL
2012-05-05 19:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Tell the truth, I don't know anything about them; it just happened that
over past year (residing in Goa) I was getting stuff from CSF that I did
not appreciate at all. Now I'm moved back to Canada, but still keep tuned
in to the GoaNet posts. I feel that CSF is 'Xian Fundamentalism'---just as
bad, or perhaps even worse (for us) than any other kind!
Post by DAN DRISCOLL
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites. the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.
The Maharashtra police investigating the explosions, ridiculed as damn
squibs by Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackarey, have established that the ?Hindu
Bomb? was assembled in one of the rooms in the Sanatan Sanstha?s ashram in
Panvel. The Indian Express, in a report published on Monday, June 23, 2008,
has sounded an alarm over the mobilization of hard-line Hindu outfits,
notably the Sanatan Sanstha (initially known as Sanatan Bhartiya
Saunskrutik Sanstha), the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti and the newly launched
organisation called ?Dharmashakti Sena? whose inaugural rally in April
showed young men dressed in military uniform.
(Protecting Hinduism - Sanatan Style by Pradnya Gaonkar: Goan Observer 28th
June, 2008)
the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha, which works under its banner, had been
chargesheeted for their role in the Thane theatre blasts of June 2008. The
theatre was targeted as it was screening the period film Jodhaa Akbar,
which shows Emperor Akbar marrying a Hindu girl, which many right wing
organisations had protested against. It was also the organisation that was
later chargesheeted for its role in the 2009 Madgaon blast in Goa.
Modi is seen inviting and thanking the same organisation, which the then
Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare had urged the home department to ban.
It has also been confirmed that Karkare had sent a proposal in August 2008
to ban the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha just months before he was killed in the
26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, as reported earlier by TEHELKA.
http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/social-political-issues/4500-modi-let-outfit-chargesheeted-terror-attacks-hold-meeting-his-constituency.html
The Maharashtra police has recommended that the state government ban
right-wing groups including Sanatan Sanstha and Abhinav Bharat. The names
of both the groups came up during the investigations of the Goa and the
Malegaon blast cases.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-09-08/india/30130015_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhinav-bharat-blast-case
MARGAO: Six members of the Sanatan Sanstha, two of them now dead, are among
the 11 persons accused by the National Investigation Agency (NIA),
which is probing the the October 16, 2009 Margao bomb blast and planting of
explosives at Sancoale, of conspiring to wage war against India by
committing a terrorist act. NIA on Monday filed a 30-page
common chargesheet with 4,000 pages of supporting documents in the two
incidents at the court of principal session judge U V Bakre constituted as
special court.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/sanatan-sanstha/recent/3
NAVI MUMBAI: Right-wing Hindu outfit Sanatan Sanstha has reacted to state's
decision to ban it. Abhay Vartak, Sanstha's chief spokesperson, said the
government has made baseless allegations about the organization's "terror
links'', and added that they will legally fight any such ban.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-12/mumbai/28683538_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhay-vartak-ban
Regards,
Marshall
DAN DRISCOLL
2012-05-05 19:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Tell the truth, I don't know anything about them; it just happened that
over past year (residing in Goa) I was getting stuff from CSF that I did
not appreciate at all. Now I'm moved back to Canada, but still keep tuned
in to the GoaNet posts. I feel that CSF is 'Xian Fundamentalism'---just as
bad, or perhaps even worse (for us) than any other kind!
Post by DAN DRISCOLL
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites. the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.
The Maharashtra police investigating the explosions, ridiculed as damn
squibs by Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackarey, have established that the ?Hindu
Bomb? was assembled in one of the rooms in the Sanatan Sanstha?s ashram in
Panvel. The Indian Express, in a report published on Monday, June 23, 2008,
has sounded an alarm over the mobilization of hard-line Hindu outfits,
notably the Sanatan Sanstha (initially known as Sanatan Bhartiya
Saunskrutik Sanstha), the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti and the newly launched
organisation called ?Dharmashakti Sena? whose inaugural rally in April
showed young men dressed in military uniform.
(Protecting Hinduism - Sanatan Style by Pradnya Gaonkar: Goan Observer 28th
June, 2008)
the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha, which works under its banner, had been
chargesheeted for their role in the Thane theatre blasts of June 2008. The
theatre was targeted as it was screening the period film Jodhaa Akbar,
which shows Emperor Akbar marrying a Hindu girl, which many right wing
organisations had protested against. It was also the organisation that was
later chargesheeted for its role in the 2009 Madgaon blast in Goa.
Modi is seen inviting and thanking the same organisation, which the then
Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare had urged the home department to ban.
It has also been confirmed that Karkare had sent a proposal in August 2008
to ban the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha just months before he was killed in the
26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, as reported earlier by TEHELKA.
http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/social-political-issues/4500-modi-let-outfit-chargesheeted-terror-attacks-hold-meeting-his-constituency.html
The Maharashtra police has recommended that the state government ban
right-wing groups including Sanatan Sanstha and Abhinav Bharat. The names
of both the groups came up during the investigations of the Goa and the
Malegaon blast cases.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-09-08/india/30130015_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhinav-bharat-blast-case
MARGAO: Six members of the Sanatan Sanstha, two of them now dead, are among
the 11 persons accused by the National Investigation Agency (NIA),
which is probing the the October 16, 2009 Margao bomb blast and planting of
explosives at Sancoale, of conspiring to wage war against India by
committing a terrorist act. NIA on Monday filed a 30-page
common chargesheet with 4,000 pages of supporting documents in the two
incidents at the court of principal session judge U V Bakre constituted as
special court.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/sanatan-sanstha/recent/3
NAVI MUMBAI: Right-wing Hindu outfit Sanatan Sanstha has reacted to state's
decision to ban it. Abhay Vartak, Sanstha's chief spokesperson, said the
government has made baseless allegations about the organization's "terror
links'', and added that they will legally fight any such ban.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-12/mumbai/28683538_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhay-vartak-ban
Regards,
Marshall
DAN DRISCOLL
2012-05-05 19:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Tell the truth, I don't know anything about them; it just happened that
over past year (residing in Goa) I was getting stuff from CSF that I did
not appreciate at all. Now I'm moved back to Canada, but still keep tuned
in to the GoaNet posts. I feel that CSF is 'Xian Fundamentalism'---just as
bad, or perhaps even worse (for us) than any other kind!
Post by DAN DRISCOLL
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites. the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.
The Maharashtra police investigating the explosions, ridiculed as damn
squibs by Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackarey, have established that the ?Hindu
Bomb? was assembled in one of the rooms in the Sanatan Sanstha?s ashram in
Panvel. The Indian Express, in a report published on Monday, June 23, 2008,
has sounded an alarm over the mobilization of hard-line Hindu outfits,
notably the Sanatan Sanstha (initially known as Sanatan Bhartiya
Saunskrutik Sanstha), the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti and the newly launched
organisation called ?Dharmashakti Sena? whose inaugural rally in April
showed young men dressed in military uniform.
(Protecting Hinduism - Sanatan Style by Pradnya Gaonkar: Goan Observer 28th
June, 2008)
the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha, which works under its banner, had been
chargesheeted for their role in the Thane theatre blasts of June 2008. The
theatre was targeted as it was screening the period film Jodhaa Akbar,
which shows Emperor Akbar marrying a Hindu girl, which many right wing
organisations had protested against. It was also the organisation that was
later chargesheeted for its role in the 2009 Madgaon blast in Goa.
Modi is seen inviting and thanking the same organisation, which the then
Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare had urged the home department to ban.
It has also been confirmed that Karkare had sent a proposal in August 2008
to ban the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha just months before he was killed in the
26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, as reported earlier by TEHELKA.
http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/social-political-issues/4500-modi-let-outfit-chargesheeted-terror-attacks-hold-meeting-his-constituency.html
The Maharashtra police has recommended that the state government ban
right-wing groups including Sanatan Sanstha and Abhinav Bharat. The names
of both the groups came up during the investigations of the Goa and the
Malegaon blast cases.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-09-08/india/30130015_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhinav-bharat-blast-case
MARGAO: Six members of the Sanatan Sanstha, two of them now dead, are among
the 11 persons accused by the National Investigation Agency (NIA),
which is probing the the October 16, 2009 Margao bomb blast and planting of
explosives at Sancoale, of conspiring to wage war against India by
committing a terrorist act. NIA on Monday filed a 30-page
common chargesheet with 4,000 pages of supporting documents in the two
incidents at the court of principal session judge U V Bakre constituted as
special court.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/sanatan-sanstha/recent/3
NAVI MUMBAI: Right-wing Hindu outfit Sanatan Sanstha has reacted to state's
decision to ban it. Abhay Vartak, Sanstha's chief spokesperson, said the
government has made baseless allegations about the organization's "terror
links'', and added that they will legally fight any such ban.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-12/mumbai/28683538_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhay-vartak-ban
Regards,
Marshall
DAN DRISCOLL
2012-05-05 19:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Tell the truth, I don't know anything about them; it just happened that
over past year (residing in Goa) I was getting stuff from CSF that I did
not appreciate at all. Now I'm moved back to Canada, but still keep tuned
in to the GoaNet posts. I feel that CSF is 'Xian Fundamentalism'---just as
bad, or perhaps even worse (for us) than any other kind!
Post by DAN DRISCOLL
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites. the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.
The Maharashtra police investigating the explosions, ridiculed as damn
squibs by Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackarey, have established that the ?Hindu
Bomb? was assembled in one of the rooms in the Sanatan Sanstha?s ashram in
Panvel. The Indian Express, in a report published on Monday, June 23, 2008,
has sounded an alarm over the mobilization of hard-line Hindu outfits,
notably the Sanatan Sanstha (initially known as Sanatan Bhartiya
Saunskrutik Sanstha), the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti and the newly launched
organisation called ?Dharmashakti Sena? whose inaugural rally in April
showed young men dressed in military uniform.
(Protecting Hinduism - Sanatan Style by Pradnya Gaonkar: Goan Observer 28th
June, 2008)
the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha, which works under its banner, had been
chargesheeted for their role in the Thane theatre blasts of June 2008. The
theatre was targeted as it was screening the period film Jodhaa Akbar,
which shows Emperor Akbar marrying a Hindu girl, which many right wing
organisations had protested against. It was also the organisation that was
later chargesheeted for its role in the 2009 Madgaon blast in Goa.
Modi is seen inviting and thanking the same organisation, which the then
Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare had urged the home department to ban.
It has also been confirmed that Karkare had sent a proposal in August 2008
to ban the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha just months before he was killed in the
26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, as reported earlier by TEHELKA.
http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/social-political-issues/4500-modi-let-outfit-chargesheeted-terror-attacks-hold-meeting-his-constituency.html
The Maharashtra police has recommended that the state government ban
right-wing groups including Sanatan Sanstha and Abhinav Bharat. The names
of both the groups came up during the investigations of the Goa and the
Malegaon blast cases.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-09-08/india/30130015_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhinav-bharat-blast-case
MARGAO: Six members of the Sanatan Sanstha, two of them now dead, are among
the 11 persons accused by the National Investigation Agency (NIA),
which is probing the the October 16, 2009 Margao bomb blast and planting of
explosives at Sancoale, of conspiring to wage war against India by
committing a terrorist act. NIA on Monday filed a 30-page
common chargesheet with 4,000 pages of supporting documents in the two
incidents at the court of principal session judge U V Bakre constituted as
special court.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/sanatan-sanstha/recent/3
NAVI MUMBAI: Right-wing Hindu outfit Sanatan Sanstha has reacted to state's
decision to ban it. Abhay Vartak, Sanstha's chief spokesperson, said the
government has made baseless allegations about the organization's "terror
links'', and added that they will legally fight any such ban.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-12/mumbai/28683538_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhay-vartak-ban
Regards,
Marshall
DAN DRISCOLL
2012-05-05 19:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Tell the truth, I don't know anything about them; it just happened that
over past year (residing in Goa) I was getting stuff from CSF that I did
not appreciate at all. Now I'm moved back to Canada, but still keep tuned
in to the GoaNet posts. I feel that CSF is 'Xian Fundamentalism'---just as
bad, or perhaps even worse (for us) than any other kind!
Post by DAN DRISCOLL
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites. the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.
The Maharashtra police investigating the explosions, ridiculed as damn
squibs by Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackarey, have established that the ?Hindu
Bomb? was assembled in one of the rooms in the Sanatan Sanstha?s ashram in
Panvel. The Indian Express, in a report published on Monday, June 23, 2008,
has sounded an alarm over the mobilization of hard-line Hindu outfits,
notably the Sanatan Sanstha (initially known as Sanatan Bhartiya
Saunskrutik Sanstha), the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti and the newly launched
organisation called ?Dharmashakti Sena? whose inaugural rally in April
showed young men dressed in military uniform.
(Protecting Hinduism - Sanatan Style by Pradnya Gaonkar: Goan Observer 28th
June, 2008)
the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha, which works under its banner, had been
chargesheeted for their role in the Thane theatre blasts of June 2008. The
theatre was targeted as it was screening the period film Jodhaa Akbar,
which shows Emperor Akbar marrying a Hindu girl, which many right wing
organisations had protested against. It was also the organisation that was
later chargesheeted for its role in the 2009 Madgaon blast in Goa.
Modi is seen inviting and thanking the same organisation, which the then
Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare had urged the home department to ban.
It has also been confirmed that Karkare had sent a proposal in August 2008
to ban the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha just months before he was killed in the
26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, as reported earlier by TEHELKA.
http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/social-political-issues/4500-modi-let-outfit-chargesheeted-terror-attacks-hold-meeting-his-constituency.html
The Maharashtra police has recommended that the state government ban
right-wing groups including Sanatan Sanstha and Abhinav Bharat. The names
of both the groups came up during the investigations of the Goa and the
Malegaon blast cases.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-09-08/india/30130015_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhinav-bharat-blast-case
MARGAO: Six members of the Sanatan Sanstha, two of them now dead, are among
the 11 persons accused by the National Investigation Agency (NIA),
which is probing the the October 16, 2009 Margao bomb blast and planting of
explosives at Sancoale, of conspiring to wage war against India by
committing a terrorist act. NIA on Monday filed a 30-page
common chargesheet with 4,000 pages of supporting documents in the two
incidents at the court of principal session judge U V Bakre constituted as
special court.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/sanatan-sanstha/recent/3
NAVI MUMBAI: Right-wing Hindu outfit Sanatan Sanstha has reacted to state's
decision to ban it. Abhay Vartak, Sanstha's chief spokesperson, said the
government has made baseless allegations about the organization's "terror
links'', and added that they will legally fight any such ban.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-12/mumbai/28683538_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhay-vartak-ban
Regards,
Marshall
Bernado Colaco
2012-04-29 12:41:26 UTC
Permalink
?36. BC Save Goa Campaign on GN.
?
BC
?
?
?
1. ? ? ?Babbar Khalsa International
2. ? ? ?Khalistan Commando Force
3. ? ? ?Khalistan Zindabad Force
4. ? ? ?International SikhYouth Federation
5. ? ? ?Lashkar-E-Taiba/Pasban-E-Ahle Hadis
6. ? ? ?Jaish-E-Mohammed/Tahrik-E-Furqan
7. ? ? ?Harkat-Ul-Mujahideen/Harkat-Ul-Ansar/Harkat-Ul-Jehad-E-Islami
8. ? ? ?Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen/Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen Pir Panjal Regiment
9. ? ? ?Al-Umar-Mujahideen
10. ? ? Jammu and Kashmir Islamic Front
11. ? ? United Liberation Front ofAssam (ULFA)
12. ? ? National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB)
13. ? ? People's LiberationArmy (PLA)
14. ? ? United National Liberation Front (UNLF)
15. ? ? People's Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK)
16. ? ? Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP)
17. ? ? KangleiYaol Kanba Lup (KYKL)
18. ? ? Manipur People's Liberation Front (MPLF)
19. ? ? AllTripuraTiger Force
20. ? ? National Liberation Front ofTripura
21. ? ? LiberationTigers ofTamil Eelam (LTTE)
22. ? ? Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI)
23. ? ? DeendarAnjuman
24. ? ? Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) - People's War, All
Its Formations and Front Organisations.
25. ? ? Maoist Communist Centre (MCC),All its Formations and Front Organisations
26. ? ? Al Badr
27. ? ? Jamiat-Ul-Mujahidden
28. ? ? Al-Qaida
29. ? ? Dukhtaran-E-Millat (DEM)
30. ? ? Tamil Nadu LiberationArmy (TNLA)
31. ? ? Tamil National RetrievalTroops (TNRT)
32. ? ? Akhil Bharat Nepali Ekta Samaj (ABNES)
33. ? ? Organisations listed in the Schedule to the U.N. Prevention and?Suppression of Terrorism (Implementaion of Security council?Resolutions) Order, 2007 made under section 2 of the United Nations?(Security Council) Act, 1947 (43 of 1947) and amended from time to?time
34. ? ? Communist Party of India (Maoist) all its formations and front organisations
35. ? ? Indian Mujahideen and all its formations and front organisations
Jesus Mario B. Fernandes
2012-04-29 23:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Mr Marshall for all your convinciing and impeccable arguments to refute this dubious attempt at equating CSF and HGF. Even a cursory look at the contents of both will suffice to say that a world of difference exists between them. To discredit the CSF by putting it on the same level as the HGF is both intellectual dishonesty and a cunning travesty to say the least. It seems it is Mr Helekar who is more paranoid because Marshall had merely asked Dan for some evidence to corroborate his earlier surmise. Wonder how Mr Helekar could be 'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be more appropriate. Is it because 'most people' would simply ignore such pathetic obsolete endeavours........And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels -the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing falsehoods?......The superfluous part of that insinuation is a mischief, if not silly. The CSF may not come under the 'secular' ambit but by no means it is any closer to the HGF in its activities. J-Mario Fernandes
Post by Santosh Helekar
QUOTE
Santosh apparently believes like Goebbels that if he repeats a?falsehood a hundred times, soon people will start believing it as the?truth.
UNQUOTE
.......Marshall Mendonza?
Cheers,
Santosh
----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 12:07 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. >
**************************************
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-30 03:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Wonder how Mr Helekar could be??'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be?more appropriate.
I am almost certain of this fact because I believe that most people are very reasonable. They understand the fact that both CSF and HJS cannot be regarded as secular organizations for the reasons that I have stated. Apparently, Jesus also understands this fact (Please see below). Most people might also understand the three senses in which I have compared the two organizations.?I know this from past experience in Goan internet forums and in real life.?
And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels?-the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the?propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing >falsehoods?
The answer to this question is yes. Marshall did compare me to the propagandist Goebbels who collaborated in the murder of 46 million men, women and children. He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that was factually false. Differences in opinion do not count as facts. He also did not provide any article or newspaper report that I had murdered anybody - the very same thing that he is demanding in respect of CSF, despite the fact that I did not use this criterion as a point of comparison. I had limited my comparison of CSF and HJS to the simple facts that both were far from being secular, and that both were similar in three specific respects, and I provided evidence that my three points of comparison were factually accurate.
The CSF may?not come under the 'secular' ambit
Good to know that Jesus has independently arrived at this conclusion.

Cheers,

Santosh


----- Original Message -----
From: Jesus Mario B. Fernandes <jmbabit at hotmail.com>
To: Goa Net <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Digest, Vol 7, Issue 420
Thank you Mr Marshall for all your convinciing and impeccable arguments to
refute this dubious attempt at equating CSF and HGF. Even a cursory look at the
contents of both will suffice to say that a world of difference exists between
them. To discredit the CSF by putting it on the same level as the HGF is both
intellectual dishonesty and a cunning travesty to say the least. It seems it is
Mr Helekar who is more paranoid because Marshall had merely asked Dan for some
evidence to corroborate his earlier surmise.? Wonder how Mr Helekar could be
'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be
more appropriate. Is it because 'most people' would simply ignore such
pathetic obsolete endeavours........And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels
-the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the
propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing falsehoods?......The
superfluous part of that insinuation is a mischief, if not silly. The CSF may
not come under the 'secular' ambit but by no means it is any closer to
the HGF in its activities. J-Mario Fernandes
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-30 03:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Wonder how Mr Helekar could be??'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be?more appropriate.
I am almost certain of this fact because I believe that most people are very reasonable. They understand the fact that both CSF and HJS cannot be regarded as secular organizations for the reasons that I have stated. Apparently, Jesus also understands this fact (Please see below). Most people might also understand the three senses in which I have compared the two organizations.?I know this from past experience in Goan internet forums and in real life.?
And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels?-the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the?propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing >falsehoods?
The answer to this question is yes. Marshall did compare me to the propagandist Goebbels who collaborated in the murder of 46 million men, women and children. He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that was factually false. Differences in opinion do not count as facts. He also did not provide any article or newspaper report that I had murdered anybody - the very same thing that he is demanding in respect of CSF, despite the fact that I did not use this criterion as a point of comparison. I had limited my comparison of CSF and HJS to the simple facts that both were far from being secular, and that both were similar in three specific respects, and I provided evidence that my three points of comparison were factually accurate.
The CSF may?not come under the 'secular' ambit
Good to know that Jesus has independently arrived at this conclusion.

Cheers,

Santosh


----- Original Message -----
From: Jesus Mario B. Fernandes <jmbabit at hotmail.com>
To: Goa Net <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Digest, Vol 7, Issue 420
Thank you Mr Marshall for all your convinciing and impeccable arguments to
refute this dubious attempt at equating CSF and HGF. Even a cursory look at the
contents of both will suffice to say that a world of difference exists between
them. To discredit the CSF by putting it on the same level as the HGF is both
intellectual dishonesty and a cunning travesty to say the least. It seems it is
Mr Helekar who is more paranoid because Marshall had merely asked Dan for some
evidence to corroborate his earlier surmise.? Wonder how Mr Helekar could be
'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be
more appropriate. Is it because 'most people' would simply ignore such
pathetic obsolete endeavours........And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels
-the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the
propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing falsehoods?......The
superfluous part of that insinuation is a mischief, if not silly. The CSF may
not come under the 'secular' ambit but by no means it is any closer to
the HGF in its activities. J-Mario Fernandes
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-30 03:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Wonder how Mr Helekar could be??'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be?more appropriate.
I am almost certain of this fact because I believe that most people are very reasonable. They understand the fact that both CSF and HJS cannot be regarded as secular organizations for the reasons that I have stated. Apparently, Jesus also understands this fact (Please see below). Most people might also understand the three senses in which I have compared the two organizations.?I know this from past experience in Goan internet forums and in real life.?
And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels?-the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the?propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing >falsehoods?
The answer to this question is yes. Marshall did compare me to the propagandist Goebbels who collaborated in the murder of 46 million men, women and children. He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that was factually false. Differences in opinion do not count as facts. He also did not provide any article or newspaper report that I had murdered anybody - the very same thing that he is demanding in respect of CSF, despite the fact that I did not use this criterion as a point of comparison. I had limited my comparison of CSF and HJS to the simple facts that both were far from being secular, and that both were similar in three specific respects, and I provided evidence that my three points of comparison were factually accurate.
The CSF may?not come under the 'secular' ambit
Good to know that Jesus has independently arrived at this conclusion.

Cheers,

Santosh


----- Original Message -----
From: Jesus Mario B. Fernandes <jmbabit at hotmail.com>
To: Goa Net <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Digest, Vol 7, Issue 420
Thank you Mr Marshall for all your convinciing and impeccable arguments to
refute this dubious attempt at equating CSF and HGF. Even a cursory look at the
contents of both will suffice to say that a world of difference exists between
them. To discredit the CSF by putting it on the same level as the HGF is both
intellectual dishonesty and a cunning travesty to say the least. It seems it is
Mr Helekar who is more paranoid because Marshall had merely asked Dan for some
evidence to corroborate his earlier surmise.? Wonder how Mr Helekar could be
'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be
more appropriate. Is it because 'most people' would simply ignore such
pathetic obsolete endeavours........And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels
-the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the
propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing falsehoods?......The
superfluous part of that insinuation is a mischief, if not silly. The CSF may
not come under the 'secular' ambit but by no means it is any closer to
the HGF in its activities. J-Mario Fernandes
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-30 03:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Wonder how Mr Helekar could be??'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be?more appropriate.
I am almost certain of this fact because I believe that most people are very reasonable. They understand the fact that both CSF and HJS cannot be regarded as secular organizations for the reasons that I have stated. Apparently, Jesus also understands this fact (Please see below). Most people might also understand the three senses in which I have compared the two organizations.?I know this from past experience in Goan internet forums and in real life.?
And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels?-the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the?propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing >falsehoods?
The answer to this question is yes. Marshall did compare me to the propagandist Goebbels who collaborated in the murder of 46 million men, women and children. He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that was factually false. Differences in opinion do not count as facts. He also did not provide any article or newspaper report that I had murdered anybody - the very same thing that he is demanding in respect of CSF, despite the fact that I did not use this criterion as a point of comparison. I had limited my comparison of CSF and HJS to the simple facts that both were far from being secular, and that both were similar in three specific respects, and I provided evidence that my three points of comparison were factually accurate.
The CSF may?not come under the 'secular' ambit
Good to know that Jesus has independently arrived at this conclusion.

Cheers,

Santosh


----- Original Message -----
From: Jesus Mario B. Fernandes <jmbabit at hotmail.com>
To: Goa Net <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Digest, Vol 7, Issue 420
Thank you Mr Marshall for all your convinciing and impeccable arguments to
refute this dubious attempt at equating CSF and HGF. Even a cursory look at the
contents of both will suffice to say that a world of difference exists between
them. To discredit the CSF by putting it on the same level as the HGF is both
intellectual dishonesty and a cunning travesty to say the least. It seems it is
Mr Helekar who is more paranoid because Marshall had merely asked Dan for some
evidence to corroborate his earlier surmise.? Wonder how Mr Helekar could be
'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be
more appropriate. Is it because 'most people' would simply ignore such
pathetic obsolete endeavours........And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels
-the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the
propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing falsehoods?......The
superfluous part of that insinuation is a mischief, if not silly. The CSF may
not come under the 'secular' ambit but by no means it is any closer to
the HGF in its activities. J-Mario Fernandes
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-30 03:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Wonder how Mr Helekar could be??'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be?more appropriate.
I am almost certain of this fact because I believe that most people are very reasonable. They understand the fact that both CSF and HJS cannot be regarded as secular organizations for the reasons that I have stated. Apparently, Jesus also understands this fact (Please see below). Most people might also understand the three senses in which I have compared the two organizations.?I know this from past experience in Goan internet forums and in real life.?
And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels?-the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the?propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing >falsehoods?
The answer to this question is yes. Marshall did compare me to the propagandist Goebbels who collaborated in the murder of 46 million men, women and children. He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that was factually false. Differences in opinion do not count as facts. He also did not provide any article or newspaper report that I had murdered anybody - the very same thing that he is demanding in respect of CSF, despite the fact that I did not use this criterion as a point of comparison. I had limited my comparison of CSF and HJS to the simple facts that both were far from being secular, and that both were similar in three specific respects, and I provided evidence that my three points of comparison were factually accurate.
The CSF may?not come under the 'secular' ambit
Good to know that Jesus has independently arrived at this conclusion.

Cheers,

Santosh


----- Original Message -----
From: Jesus Mario B. Fernandes <jmbabit at hotmail.com>
To: Goa Net <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet Digest, Vol 7, Issue 420
Thank you Mr Marshall for all your convinciing and impeccable arguments to
refute this dubious attempt at equating CSF and HGF. Even a cursory look at the
contents of both will suffice to say that a world of difference exists between
them. To discredit the CSF by putting it on the same level as the HGF is both
intellectual dishonesty and a cunning travesty to say the least. It seems it is
Mr Helekar who is more paranoid because Marshall had merely asked Dan for some
evidence to corroborate his earlier surmise.? Wonder how Mr Helekar could be
'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be
more appropriate. Is it because 'most people' would simply ignore such
pathetic obsolete endeavours........And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels
-the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the
propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing falsehoods?......The
superfluous part of that insinuation is a mischief, if not silly. The CSF may
not come under the 'secular' ambit but by no means it is any closer to
the HGF in its activities. J-Mario Fernandes
Marshall Mendonza
2012-05-01 00:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar:
He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could
provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that
was factually false.

Response:
Here is evidence No 1:-

in the end the motive of the Church is always to convert (as always)......
Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html
But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and
what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy...... Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html

He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.......
Santosh Helekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html

Pl note in the first two posts above it is very clear that Sandesh is
speaking out against the CHURCH. Yet Santosh deliberately and with mischief
and maliciousness with the intention of maligning and smearing the CSF is
falsely misrepresenting Sandesh's post with the falsehood that he was
referring to the CSF.

I hope Santosh will stop embarassing himself and accept with honesty and
humility that he has been wrong.

Regards,

Marshall
Santosh Helekar
2012-05-01 14:01:30 UTC
Permalink
I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No. 1", unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well.?

So let me set the record straight. Here is what I said in this post:?http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html

QUOTE
Despite its name, the CSF is not a secular forum. It is a Catholic propaganda outfit as much as the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti is a Hindu propaganda outfit. So it is understandable that it would want to point out the flaws in the Hindu religion, and offer the Christian gospel as the answer. Similarly, Sandesh appears to be a devout Hindu who is understandably offended by the anti-Hindu propaganda of CSF. He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.
UNQUOTE
..........Santosh Helekar

Here is Sandesh Anvekar's post:
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html

Please note that Sandesh Anvekar was lashing out against the following anti-Hindu insinuation by the CSF:

http://persecutedchurch.info/2012/02/11/the-gospel-provides-powerful-hope-for-indias-temple-prostitutes/


The above website is not that of the Church but that of CSF. That is why it is reasonable and fair to hold the opinion that Sandesh was lashing out against CSF by implicating what is sacred to that organization, namely the Church, in its religious chauvinistic actions. This is how religio-political activists use guilt by association to lash out against their perceived opponents. Marshall knows this very well because he resorts to it all the time himself.?

Those who do not understand, for whatever reason, why the above article by CSF on its "percecutedchurch.info" website is anti-Hindu insinuation, I would like to point out the fact that the term "India's temples" refers to Hindu temples, and temple prostitution is a Hindu practice. The CSF is claiming that the Christian gospel is giving these prostitutes powerful hope, implying that there is no hope for them in Hindu temples.

Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 7:45 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Goanet Digest, Vol 7, Issue 420
He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could
provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that
was factually false.
Here is evidence No 1:-
in the end the motive of the Church is always to convert (as always)......
Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html
But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and
what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy...... Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html
He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.......
Santosh Helekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html
Pl note in the first two posts above it is very clear that Sandesh is
speaking out against the CHURCH. Yet Santosh deliberately and with mischief
and maliciousness with the intention of maligning and smearing the CSF is
falsely misrepresenting Sandesh's post with the falsehood that he was
referring to the CSF.
I hope Santosh will stop embarassing himself and accept with honesty and
humility that he has been wrong.
Regards,
Marshall
Santosh Helekar
2012-05-06 16:58:11 UTC
Permalink
I cannot prevent Marshall Mendonza from continuing to spread libelous false accusations against me on Goanet. Each person is responsible for his own moral behavior. This time I noticed that in addition to copying and pasting the same old fabricated "evidence No: 1" against me, he is copying and pasting what some unknown guy named Sandesh Anvekar said much later in response to a third person's post in that thread. I am confident that there is no court of law or of public opinion that would hold me responsible for what someone else said subsequent to my expressing my own honest opinion. I stand by my truthful and honest opinion expressed in the quote, and am extremely confident that most rational and unbiased secular-minded folk would find nothing wrong or false in it:

QUOTE
Despite its name, the CSF is not a secular forum. It is a Catholic?propaganda outfit as much as the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti is a Hindu?propaganda outfit. So it is understandable that it would want to point?out the flaws in the Hindu religion, and offer the Christian gospel as?the answer. Similarly, Sandesh appears to be a devout Hindu who is?understandably offended by the anti-Hindu propaganda of CSF. He is?lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly?paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.
UNQUOTE
..........Santosh Helekar


Now the ball is in Marshall's court. He can either keep copying and pasting the same fabrication over and over again on Goanet, and try to smear me with something else someone else said, and show some signs of a normal decent behavior.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Marshall Mendonza
I had provided evidence of the falsehoods propagated by Santosh in my last
post. As it was a simple open and shut case, I had expected Santosh to
accept he was wrong with honesty and humility and move on. However,
apparently, I am mistaken. He prefers to live in denial and bluff and bluster
his way out.? Perhaps he believes that he possesses some extraordinary and
supernatural powers whereby the word ?Church? used by Sandesh changes into
?CSF? because Santosh would like to believe it so.**** ** ** I am reproducing
the? posts in sequence.**** ** ** Evidence of Falsehood No 1:**** ** ** a)Here
is what Sandesh Anvekar wrote in response to Con Menezes? post on
Feb 13, 2012- **** ** ** in the end the motive of the CHURCH ( caps mine)is
always to convert
(as always)... Sandesh Anvekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html****
** ** b)this is what Santosh Helekar responded with on Feb 13, 2012**** ** ** He
is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity???..
Santosh Helekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html****
** ** c) once again in response to Jose Colaco, Sandesh repeats very
emphatically without mincing words or any ambiguity on Feb 14,
2012-**** ** ** As for me.. I have never said that Christian people make me
feel**** insecure... nor is the question of disbelief in Christian religion****
** ** But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is
and**** what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy? ???. Sandesh
Anvekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html****
** ** Now, may I ask you goanetters, does Sandesh refer to the CSF even
once? Can anyone show me any reference to the CSF in his posts. **** ** ** Yet
Santosh Helekar maliciously and mischievously and with ulterior
motives falsely maligns and smears the CSF and makes it out as if
Sandesh is referring to the CSF.**** ** ** I leave it to you goanetters to
derive your own conclusions.**** ** ** Regards,**** ** ** Marshall**** ** ** * *
*I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would
therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No.
1",
unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes
out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would
most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His
folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own
misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very
well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well. ? Santosh Helekar* * * * *
Santosh Helekar
2012-05-06 16:58:11 UTC
Permalink
I cannot prevent Marshall Mendonza from continuing to spread libelous false accusations against me on Goanet. Each person is responsible for his own moral behavior. This time I noticed that in addition to copying and pasting the same old fabricated "evidence No: 1" against me, he is copying and pasting what some unknown guy named Sandesh Anvekar said much later in response to a third person's post in that thread. I am confident that there is no court of law or of public opinion that would hold me responsible for what someone else said subsequent to my expressing my own honest opinion. I stand by my truthful and honest opinion expressed in the quote, and am extremely confident that most rational and unbiased secular-minded folk would find nothing wrong or false in it:

QUOTE
Despite its name, the CSF is not a secular forum. It is a Catholic?propaganda outfit as much as the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti is a Hindu?propaganda outfit. So it is understandable that it would want to point?out the flaws in the Hindu religion, and offer the Christian gospel as?the answer. Similarly, Sandesh appears to be a devout Hindu who is?understandably offended by the anti-Hindu propaganda of CSF. He is?lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly?paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.
UNQUOTE
..........Santosh Helekar


Now the ball is in Marshall's court. He can either keep copying and pasting the same fabrication over and over again on Goanet, and try to smear me with something else someone else said, and show some signs of a normal decent behavior.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Marshall Mendonza
I had provided evidence of the falsehoods propagated by Santosh in my last
post. As it was a simple open and shut case, I had expected Santosh to
accept he was wrong with honesty and humility and move on. However,
apparently, I am mistaken. He prefers to live in denial and bluff and bluster
his way out.? Perhaps he believes that he possesses some extraordinary and
supernatural powers whereby the word ?Church? used by Sandesh changes into
?CSF? because Santosh would like to believe it so.**** ** ** I am reproducing
the? posts in sequence.**** ** ** Evidence of Falsehood No 1:**** ** ** a)Here
is what Sandesh Anvekar wrote in response to Con Menezes? post on
Feb 13, 2012- **** ** ** in the end the motive of the CHURCH ( caps mine)is
always to convert
(as always)... Sandesh Anvekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html****
** ** b)this is what Santosh Helekar responded with on Feb 13, 2012**** ** ** He
is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity???..
Santosh Helekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html****
** ** c) once again in response to Jose Colaco, Sandesh repeats very
emphatically without mincing words or any ambiguity on Feb 14,
2012-**** ** ** As for me.. I have never said that Christian people make me
feel**** insecure... nor is the question of disbelief in Christian religion****
** ** But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is
and**** what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy? ???. Sandesh
Anvekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html****
** ** Now, may I ask you goanetters, does Sandesh refer to the CSF even
once? Can anyone show me any reference to the CSF in his posts. **** ** ** Yet
Santosh Helekar maliciously and mischievously and with ulterior
motives falsely maligns and smears the CSF and makes it out as if
Sandesh is referring to the CSF.**** ** ** I leave it to you goanetters to
derive your own conclusions.**** ** ** Regards,**** ** ** Marshall**** ** ** * *
*I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would
therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No.
1",
unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes
out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would
most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His
folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own
misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very
well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well. ? Santosh Helekar* * * * *
Santosh Helekar
2012-05-06 16:58:11 UTC
Permalink
I cannot prevent Marshall Mendonza from continuing to spread libelous false accusations against me on Goanet. Each person is responsible for his own moral behavior. This time I noticed that in addition to copying and pasting the same old fabricated "evidence No: 1" against me, he is copying and pasting what some unknown guy named Sandesh Anvekar said much later in response to a third person's post in that thread. I am confident that there is no court of law or of public opinion that would hold me responsible for what someone else said subsequent to my expressing my own honest opinion. I stand by my truthful and honest opinion expressed in the quote, and am extremely confident that most rational and unbiased secular-minded folk would find nothing wrong or false in it:

QUOTE
Despite its name, the CSF is not a secular forum. It is a Catholic?propaganda outfit as much as the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti is a Hindu?propaganda outfit. So it is understandable that it would want to point?out the flaws in the Hindu religion, and offer the Christian gospel as?the answer. Similarly, Sandesh appears to be a devout Hindu who is?understandably offended by the anti-Hindu propaganda of CSF. He is?lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly?paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.
UNQUOTE
..........Santosh Helekar


Now the ball is in Marshall's court. He can either keep copying and pasting the same fabrication over and over again on Goanet, and try to smear me with something else someone else said, and show some signs of a normal decent behavior.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Marshall Mendonza
I had provided evidence of the falsehoods propagated by Santosh in my last
post. As it was a simple open and shut case, I had expected Santosh to
accept he was wrong with honesty and humility and move on. However,
apparently, I am mistaken. He prefers to live in denial and bluff and bluster
his way out.? Perhaps he believes that he possesses some extraordinary and
supernatural powers whereby the word ?Church? used by Sandesh changes into
?CSF? because Santosh would like to believe it so.**** ** ** I am reproducing
the? posts in sequence.**** ** ** Evidence of Falsehood No 1:**** ** ** a)Here
is what Sandesh Anvekar wrote in response to Con Menezes? post on
Feb 13, 2012- **** ** ** in the end the motive of the CHURCH ( caps mine)is
always to convert
(as always)... Sandesh Anvekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html****
** ** b)this is what Santosh Helekar responded with on Feb 13, 2012**** ** ** He
is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity???..
Santosh Helekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html****
** ** c) once again in response to Jose Colaco, Sandesh repeats very
emphatically without mincing words or any ambiguity on Feb 14,
2012-**** ** ** As for me.. I have never said that Christian people make me
feel**** insecure... nor is the question of disbelief in Christian religion****
** ** But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is
and**** what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy? ???. Sandesh
Anvekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html****
** ** Now, may I ask you goanetters, does Sandesh refer to the CSF even
once? Can anyone show me any reference to the CSF in his posts. **** ** ** Yet
Santosh Helekar maliciously and mischievously and with ulterior
motives falsely maligns and smears the CSF and makes it out as if
Sandesh is referring to the CSF.**** ** ** I leave it to you goanetters to
derive your own conclusions.**** ** ** Regards,**** ** ** Marshall**** ** ** * *
*I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would
therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No.
1",
unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes
out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would
most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His
folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own
misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very
well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well. ? Santosh Helekar* * * * *
Santosh Helekar
2012-05-06 16:58:11 UTC
Permalink
I cannot prevent Marshall Mendonza from continuing to spread libelous false accusations against me on Goanet. Each person is responsible for his own moral behavior. This time I noticed that in addition to copying and pasting the same old fabricated "evidence No: 1" against me, he is copying and pasting what some unknown guy named Sandesh Anvekar said much later in response to a third person's post in that thread. I am confident that there is no court of law or of public opinion that would hold me responsible for what someone else said subsequent to my expressing my own honest opinion. I stand by my truthful and honest opinion expressed in the quote, and am extremely confident that most rational and unbiased secular-minded folk would find nothing wrong or false in it:

QUOTE
Despite its name, the CSF is not a secular forum. It is a Catholic?propaganda outfit as much as the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti is a Hindu?propaganda outfit. So it is understandable that it would want to point?out the flaws in the Hindu religion, and offer the Christian gospel as?the answer. Similarly, Sandesh appears to be a devout Hindu who is?understandably offended by the anti-Hindu propaganda of CSF. He is?lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly?paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.
UNQUOTE
..........Santosh Helekar


Now the ball is in Marshall's court. He can either keep copying and pasting the same fabrication over and over again on Goanet, and try to smear me with something else someone else said, and show some signs of a normal decent behavior.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Marshall Mendonza
I had provided evidence of the falsehoods propagated by Santosh in my last
post. As it was a simple open and shut case, I had expected Santosh to
accept he was wrong with honesty and humility and move on. However,
apparently, I am mistaken. He prefers to live in denial and bluff and bluster
his way out.? Perhaps he believes that he possesses some extraordinary and
supernatural powers whereby the word ?Church? used by Sandesh changes into
?CSF? because Santosh would like to believe it so.**** ** ** I am reproducing
the? posts in sequence.**** ** ** Evidence of Falsehood No 1:**** ** ** a)Here
is what Sandesh Anvekar wrote in response to Con Menezes? post on
Feb 13, 2012- **** ** ** in the end the motive of the CHURCH ( caps mine)is
always to convert
(as always)... Sandesh Anvekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html****
** ** b)this is what Santosh Helekar responded with on Feb 13, 2012**** ** ** He
is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity???..
Santosh Helekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html****
** ** c) once again in response to Jose Colaco, Sandesh repeats very
emphatically without mincing words or any ambiguity on Feb 14,
2012-**** ** ** As for me.. I have never said that Christian people make me
feel**** insecure... nor is the question of disbelief in Christian religion****
** ** But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is
and**** what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy? ???. Sandesh
Anvekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html****
** ** Now, may I ask you goanetters, does Sandesh refer to the CSF even
once? Can anyone show me any reference to the CSF in his posts. **** ** ** Yet
Santosh Helekar maliciously and mischievously and with ulterior
motives falsely maligns and smears the CSF and makes it out as if
Sandesh is referring to the CSF.**** ** ** I leave it to you goanetters to
derive your own conclusions.**** ** ** Regards,**** ** ** Marshall**** ** ** * *
*I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would
therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No.
1",
unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes
out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would
most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His
folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own
misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very
well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well. ? Santosh Helekar* * * * *
Santosh Helekar
2012-05-06 16:58:11 UTC
Permalink
I cannot prevent Marshall Mendonza from continuing to spread libelous false accusations against me on Goanet. Each person is responsible for his own moral behavior. This time I noticed that in addition to copying and pasting the same old fabricated "evidence No: 1" against me, he is copying and pasting what some unknown guy named Sandesh Anvekar said much later in response to a third person's post in that thread. I am confident that there is no court of law or of public opinion that would hold me responsible for what someone else said subsequent to my expressing my own honest opinion. I stand by my truthful and honest opinion expressed in the quote, and am extremely confident that most rational and unbiased secular-minded folk would find nothing wrong or false in it:

QUOTE
Despite its name, the CSF is not a secular forum. It is a Catholic?propaganda outfit as much as the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti is a Hindu?propaganda outfit. So it is understandable that it would want to point?out the flaws in the Hindu religion, and offer the Christian gospel as?the answer. Similarly, Sandesh appears to be a devout Hindu who is?understandably offended by the anti-Hindu propaganda of CSF. He is?lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly?paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.
UNQUOTE
..........Santosh Helekar


Now the ball is in Marshall's court. He can either keep copying and pasting the same fabrication over and over again on Goanet, and try to smear me with something else someone else said, and show some signs of a normal decent behavior.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Marshall Mendonza
I had provided evidence of the falsehoods propagated by Santosh in my last
post. As it was a simple open and shut case, I had expected Santosh to
accept he was wrong with honesty and humility and move on. However,
apparently, I am mistaken. He prefers to live in denial and bluff and bluster
his way out.? Perhaps he believes that he possesses some extraordinary and
supernatural powers whereby the word ?Church? used by Sandesh changes into
?CSF? because Santosh would like to believe it so.**** ** ** I am reproducing
the? posts in sequence.**** ** ** Evidence of Falsehood No 1:**** ** ** a)Here
is what Sandesh Anvekar wrote in response to Con Menezes? post on
Feb 13, 2012- **** ** ** in the end the motive of the CHURCH ( caps mine)is
always to convert
(as always)... Sandesh Anvekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html****
** ** b)this is what Santosh Helekar responded with on Feb 13, 2012**** ** ** He
is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity???..
Santosh Helekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html****
** ** c) once again in response to Jose Colaco, Sandesh repeats very
emphatically without mincing words or any ambiguity on Feb 14,
2012-**** ** ** As for me.. I have never said that Christian people make me
feel**** insecure... nor is the question of disbelief in Christian religion****
** ** But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is
and**** what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy? ???. Sandesh
Anvekar****
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html****
** ** Now, may I ask you goanetters, does Sandesh refer to the CSF even
once? Can anyone show me any reference to the CSF in his posts. **** ** ** Yet
Santosh Helekar maliciously and mischievously and with ulterior
motives falsely maligns and smears the CSF and makes it out as if
Sandesh is referring to the CSF.**** ** ** I leave it to you goanetters to
derive your own conclusions.**** ** ** Regards,**** ** ** Marshall**** ** ** * *
*I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would
therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No.
1",
unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes
out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would
most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His
folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own
misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very
well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well. ? Santosh Helekar* * * * *
Santosh Helekar
2012-05-01 14:01:30 UTC
Permalink
I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No. 1", unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well.?

So let me set the record straight. Here is what I said in this post:?http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html

QUOTE
Despite its name, the CSF is not a secular forum. It is a Catholic propaganda outfit as much as the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti is a Hindu propaganda outfit. So it is understandable that it would want to point out the flaws in the Hindu religion, and offer the Christian gospel as the answer. Similarly, Sandesh appears to be a devout Hindu who is understandably offended by the anti-Hindu propaganda of CSF. He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.
UNQUOTE
..........Santosh Helekar

Here is Sandesh Anvekar's post:
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html

Please note that Sandesh Anvekar was lashing out against the following anti-Hindu insinuation by the CSF:

http://persecutedchurch.info/2012/02/11/the-gospel-provides-powerful-hope-for-indias-temple-prostitutes/


The above website is not that of the Church but that of CSF. That is why it is reasonable and fair to hold the opinion that Sandesh was lashing out against CSF by implicating what is sacred to that organization, namely the Church, in its religious chauvinistic actions. This is how religio-political activists use guilt by association to lash out against their perceived opponents. Marshall knows this very well because he resorts to it all the time himself.?

Those who do not understand, for whatever reason, why the above article by CSF on its "percecutedchurch.info" website is anti-Hindu insinuation, I would like to point out the fact that the term "India's temples" refers to Hindu temples, and temple prostitution is a Hindu practice. The CSF is claiming that the Christian gospel is giving these prostitutes powerful hope, implying that there is no hope for them in Hindu temples.

Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 7:45 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Goanet Digest, Vol 7, Issue 420
He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could
provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that
was factually false.
Here is evidence No 1:-
in the end the motive of the Church is always to convert (as always)......
Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html
But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and
what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy...... Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html
He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.......
Santosh Helekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html
Pl note in the first two posts above it is very clear that Sandesh is
speaking out against the CHURCH. Yet Santosh deliberately and with mischief
and maliciousness with the intention of maligning and smearing the CSF is
falsely misrepresenting Sandesh's post with the falsehood that he was
referring to the CSF.
I hope Santosh will stop embarassing himself and accept with honesty and
humility that he has been wrong.
Regards,
Marshall
Santosh Helekar
2012-05-01 14:01:30 UTC
Permalink
I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No. 1", unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well.?

So let me set the record straight. Here is what I said in this post:?http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html

QUOTE
Despite its name, the CSF is not a secular forum. It is a Catholic propaganda outfit as much as the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti is a Hindu propaganda outfit. So it is understandable that it would want to point out the flaws in the Hindu religion, and offer the Christian gospel as the answer. Similarly, Sandesh appears to be a devout Hindu who is understandably offended by the anti-Hindu propaganda of CSF. He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.
UNQUOTE
..........Santosh Helekar

Here is Sandesh Anvekar's post:
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html

Please note that Sandesh Anvekar was lashing out against the following anti-Hindu insinuation by the CSF:

http://persecutedchurch.info/2012/02/11/the-gospel-provides-powerful-hope-for-indias-temple-prostitutes/


The above website is not that of the Church but that of CSF. That is why it is reasonable and fair to hold the opinion that Sandesh was lashing out against CSF by implicating what is sacred to that organization, namely the Church, in its religious chauvinistic actions. This is how religio-political activists use guilt by association to lash out against their perceived opponents. Marshall knows this very well because he resorts to it all the time himself.?

Those who do not understand, for whatever reason, why the above article by CSF on its "percecutedchurch.info" website is anti-Hindu insinuation, I would like to point out the fact that the term "India's temples" refers to Hindu temples, and temple prostitution is a Hindu practice. The CSF is claiming that the Christian gospel is giving these prostitutes powerful hope, implying that there is no hope for them in Hindu temples.

Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 7:45 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Goanet Digest, Vol 7, Issue 420
He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could
provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that
was factually false.
Here is evidence No 1:-
in the end the motive of the Church is always to convert (as always)......
Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html
But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and
what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy...... Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html
He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.......
Santosh Helekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html
Pl note in the first two posts above it is very clear that Sandesh is
speaking out against the CHURCH. Yet Santosh deliberately and with mischief
and maliciousness with the intention of maligning and smearing the CSF is
falsely misrepresenting Sandesh's post with the falsehood that he was
referring to the CSF.
I hope Santosh will stop embarassing himself and accept with honesty and
humility that he has been wrong.
Regards,
Marshall
Santosh Helekar
2012-05-01 14:01:30 UTC
Permalink
I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No. 1", unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well.?

So let me set the record straight. Here is what I said in this post:?http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html

QUOTE
Despite its name, the CSF is not a secular forum. It is a Catholic propaganda outfit as much as the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti is a Hindu propaganda outfit. So it is understandable that it would want to point out the flaws in the Hindu religion, and offer the Christian gospel as the answer. Similarly, Sandesh appears to be a devout Hindu who is understandably offended by the anti-Hindu propaganda of CSF. He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.
UNQUOTE
..........Santosh Helekar

Here is Sandesh Anvekar's post:
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html

Please note that Sandesh Anvekar was lashing out against the following anti-Hindu insinuation by the CSF:

http://persecutedchurch.info/2012/02/11/the-gospel-provides-powerful-hope-for-indias-temple-prostitutes/


The above website is not that of the Church but that of CSF. That is why it is reasonable and fair to hold the opinion that Sandesh was lashing out against CSF by implicating what is sacred to that organization, namely the Church, in its religious chauvinistic actions. This is how religio-political activists use guilt by association to lash out against their perceived opponents. Marshall knows this very well because he resorts to it all the time himself.?

Those who do not understand, for whatever reason, why the above article by CSF on its "percecutedchurch.info" website is anti-Hindu insinuation, I would like to point out the fact that the term "India's temples" refers to Hindu temples, and temple prostitution is a Hindu practice. The CSF is claiming that the Christian gospel is giving these prostitutes powerful hope, implying that there is no hope for them in Hindu temples.

Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 7:45 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Goanet Digest, Vol 7, Issue 420
He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could
provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that
was factually false.
Here is evidence No 1:-
in the end the motive of the Church is always to convert (as always)......
Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html
But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and
what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy...... Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html
He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.......
Santosh Helekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html
Pl note in the first two posts above it is very clear that Sandesh is
speaking out against the CHURCH. Yet Santosh deliberately and with mischief
and maliciousness with the intention of maligning and smearing the CSF is
falsely misrepresenting Sandesh's post with the falsehood that he was
referring to the CSF.
I hope Santosh will stop embarassing himself and accept with honesty and
humility that he has been wrong.
Regards,
Marshall
Santosh Helekar
2012-05-01 14:01:30 UTC
Permalink
I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No. 1", unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well.?

So let me set the record straight. Here is what I said in this post:?http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html

QUOTE
Despite its name, the CSF is not a secular forum. It is a Catholic propaganda outfit as much as the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti is a Hindu propaganda outfit. So it is understandable that it would want to point out the flaws in the Hindu religion, and offer the Christian gospel as the answer. Similarly, Sandesh appears to be a devout Hindu who is understandably offended by the anti-Hindu propaganda of CSF. He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.
UNQUOTE
..........Santosh Helekar

Here is Sandesh Anvekar's post:
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html

Please note that Sandesh Anvekar was lashing out against the following anti-Hindu insinuation by the CSF:

http://persecutedchurch.info/2012/02/11/the-gospel-provides-powerful-hope-for-indias-temple-prostitutes/


The above website is not that of the Church but that of CSF. That is why it is reasonable and fair to hold the opinion that Sandesh was lashing out against CSF by implicating what is sacred to that organization, namely the Church, in its religious chauvinistic actions. This is how religio-political activists use guilt by association to lash out against their perceived opponents. Marshall knows this very well because he resorts to it all the time himself.?

Those who do not understand, for whatever reason, why the above article by CSF on its "percecutedchurch.info" website is anti-Hindu insinuation, I would like to point out the fact that the term "India's temples" refers to Hindu temples, and temple prostitution is a Hindu practice. The CSF is claiming that the Christian gospel is giving these prostitutes powerful hope, implying that there is no hope for them in Hindu temples.

Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 7:45 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Goanet Digest, Vol 7, Issue 420
He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could
provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that
was factually false.
Here is evidence No 1:-
in the end the motive of the Church is always to convert (as always)......
Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html
But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and
what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy...... Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html
He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.......
Santosh Helekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html
Pl note in the first two posts above it is very clear that Sandesh is
speaking out against the CHURCH. Yet Santosh deliberately and with mischief
and maliciousness with the intention of maligning and smearing the CSF is
falsely misrepresenting Sandesh's post with the falsehood that he was
referring to the CSF.
I hope Santosh will stop embarassing himself and accept with honesty and
humility that he has been wrong.
Regards,
Marshall
Marshall Mendonza
2012-04-25 15:58:03 UTC
Permalink
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.

** **

I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter and
I have the following observations / comments:****

**1. **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS is both odious and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.

**2. **Regarding the ?miracle?, believers and rationalists are entitled
to their respective opinions or beliefs. However, no one has the unfettered
right without the resultant responsibility to make allegations without
adducing evidence.****

**3. **In a civilised and democratic country every individual has the
right to protest provided it is done in a civilised and democratic manner
and within the confines of law. I do not see the CSF or the other
organisations named in the report deviating from these norms.****

**4. **It is interesting that Santosh calls the filing of criminal
cases by the CSF and others against *Sanal Edamaruku as ?persecution? but
has in the past referred to the numerous attacks on Christians as
?victimhood? . *****

**5. **I am appending extracts of the CSF newsletter which puts the
entire issue in perspective. I am also providing youtube links of the
debate that took place on TV9 Channel.

http://youtu.be/TfJ6_ftih0s

I leave it to you Goanetters to decide whom to take seriously.****

** **

Regards****

** **

Marshall****

** **

*The CSF *****

*The case of the 'Dripping Crucifix' was in the news again recently with
the Mumbai Police calling Sanal Edamaruku, a self-proclaimed "rationalist"
to record his statement on complaints filed against him for hurting
religious sentiments. This he did live on TV twice, videos of which are
available with The CSF, which along with others is being blamed for curbing
his freedom of expression. What is not known is, what exactly Sanal
Edamaruku said, that caused the community to react so strongly.*****

The CSF is all freedom of expression, but not for the right to ridicule,
abuse, mock or poke fun at any faith or the clergy and followers of any
religion. *Sanal Edamaruku says he "faces persecution from the Catholic
church" as per his blog, though apart from issuing a clarification, the
Catholic Church has ignored him.* Rather, it was NGOs and individuals, many
of whom were non-Christians, which took up cudgels, in public interest.****

*The issue relates water observed to be dripping from a Crucifix in Irla of
suburban Mumbai, for no logically explainable reason. This fact was
captured on television, by cameras and witnessed by police and thousands,
who flocked to the spot. The CSF called it an unexplainable phenomenon and
challenged anyone to replicate the extraordinary happening. Or provide some
rationale or explanation for it. Even the media, present in large numbers
could not provide answers and publicly said so.*****

*The capillary action theory proposed by Sanal Edamaruku cannot according
to The CSF be replicated to raise water from the ground, through a concrete
base, on to a wooden cross, across a nail and drip the water from a
Crucifix, standing almost 7 feet above the ground. There is also no source
of water anywhere nearby or connected to the Crucifix on that bright sunny
day.*

On 5th March, 2012, when the extra-ordinary happened, a TV channel telecast
the occurrence. The media mentioned the non-Christian lady, who first
noticed it, residents and witnesses, like the parish priest, Fr. Vincent
Palett, Judith Monteiro, Gordon Jacobs, etc. The TV channel had Sanal
Edamaruku speaking live from Delhi, who based his observations purely on
hearsay, not having seen the dripping Crucifix himself. During the course
of the program, he made several objectionable and religiously offensive
statements, which many, like the Association of Concerned Catholics (AoCC),
Maharashtra Christian Youth Forum (MCYF), etc. besides The CSF took offense
too.

The activists and residents gave Sanal Edamaruku, ample opportunity to
apologize, as he had hurt the religious sentiments of Christians, by his
public statements in the mass media. He not only vehemently refused to
accede to their requests, but on the contrary added insult to injury by
making even more hurting remarks, there and also on a subsequent television
program. *His very obvious and stridently anti-Christian bias compelled me,
as general secretary of The CSF, to file the first FIR on 11th March, 2012
at the MIDC Police Station, as we were convinced of his malicious intention
to insult the faith, the clergy and hierarchy.*

*Please find some points raised in my FIR complaint with the police, based
on Sanal Edamaruku's public comments. It clearly exposes his blatant
anti-Catholic and also anti-religion stance. He is a self-confessed
atheist, who pokes fun and is generous in his derogatory remarks on various
religions, which comes through clearly in the video recordings.* ****

We leave it to you to decide, whether a person making such statements
should be allowed to go scot free, without even an enquiry. How would
believers of other faiths, like Islam or Buddhism have reacted to the
remarks presented below?**

* Sanal Edamaruku's Offensive Statements Recorded, which Hurt Christian
Sentiments*

*1. Christian clergy under the pretext of religion, regularly manufacture
miracles, on the basis of which they collect money.*
* *
*2. The clergy uses monies thus collected to build newer and bigger
churches. This is one such tamasha of many that are existing.*
* *
*3. There is a distinct possibility that the Christians made a hole in the
head of the Jesus statue, with an outlet at the feet for the water.*
* *
*4. We are told that Christians are not idol worshipers, but incidents and
crucifixes like this, expose at least the Catholics as idol worshipers.*
* *
*5. Christians are leaving established churches & to halt the exodus or to
prevent churches from becoming empty, priests resort to such gimmicks.*
* *
*6. If Christ was killed on the Cross, then it is not a thing to be
worshipped. Does anyone worship the gun with which Gandhi was shot? Then
why should Christians worship the Cross?*
* *
*7. Mother Mary is always shown crying. Priests even spread rumours that
her tears of blood can be seen and then collect money, which is misused.*
* *
*8. The Pope is anti-science and believes in exorcising evil spirits or
black magic. You may watch such tricks, but don't give these Christians
money.*
* *
*9. In a human, there is blood and other body fluids like tears, urine,
saliva, etc. Here we don't have blood coming out? So what is this water
that is dripping?*
* *
*10. The clergy is promoting bogus miracles, taking advantage and cheating
the gullible, with the Church having an exploitative structure for these
tricks*
* *
*11. The Church has been the cause of maximum damage in the world, with its
many superstitions, blind beliefs, etc. which the priests promote as it
becomes necessary. *
* *
*12. Even the 'miracle' that decided Mother Teresa's case for sainthood was
a fake one. Almost every Church is full of such cheap tricks performed to
get money in God's name.*

*Bishop Agnelo Gracias: The Official Church Reaction*

Bishop Agnelo Gracias clarifying the Church's stand said that as a general
observation, ?The official Church is slow to attribute supernatural causes
to ?extra-ordinary? phenomena we observe in life. As far as possible, the
Church tries to see if such phenomena can be explained by natural causes.
Further, the Church does not pay too much attention to these extraordinary
phenomena, even though she accepts the possibility that God may intervene
in human life in an extraordinary way ? what we often term a ?miraculous?
way.

On the ?dripping Crucifix?, Bishop Agnelo categorically stated that "one
can doubt if this water dripping has a supernatural cause. The Church has
NOT made any pronouncement on it. There is a lengthy scientific process
that has to be undergone before any official pronouncement is made. It is
quite possible that the dripping water may have a natural explanation.
However, what is surely objectionable are some statements made by the Delhi
interlocutor, Mr. Sanal Edamaruku and I would like to point out a couple of
these erroneous assertions:

* Contrary to the interlocutor?s claim, the Church does not advocate the
worship of images. There is a difference between honouring a thing and
making it divine, something to be worshipped. We respect and honour the
Scriptures of any religion not because the books are in themselves divine,
but because they have a special significance for the adherents of that
religion. We honour a cross because it is for us a reminder of the love of
Jesus who died for us

* A second gratuitous assertion is that the dripping Cross has been created
by priests who are out to make money! This Cross is not on Church property
and the one who is alleged to have noticed the dripping water was not even
a Catholic. No money has been collected by any priest. And surely, priests
do not build churches with such money, as is claimed by the interlocutor.

* A third unwarranted statement is that the Pope or the Church is against
Science. The interlocutor would only have to go to Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia on the internet, to see the list of eminent Catholic
scientists and how the Church has supported scientific research, since the
emergence of the European universities in the Middle Ages. There is a
Pontifical Academy of Sciences, founded in 1603, which seeks to pay honour
to pure science, wherever it is found, to assure its freedom and to promote
its research.

Bishop Agnelo concludes, "I realize that the interlocutor has made these
and other unwarranted statements out of ignorance ? he is unaware of facts.
The least he could do would be to apologize to the Catholic community for
hurting it, even though it might be inadvertently".

*The Editor's Take and Real Issues Side-tracked*

*At no point in time, did any one, other than Sanal Edamaruku, for obvious
reasons, claim it to be a 'miracle', even though not just for the
witnesses, but also the media, police and municipal staff, could not
explain the phenomenon. A plausible explanation, which makes sense is still
elusive. The capillary action theory propounded by Sanal Edamaruku can be
debunked for many reasons.*****

*The wood of the Cross is dry and no evidence of water being absorbed is
seen. There is no direct source of water anywhere nearby to supply the
large quantity of water flowing over days. *It is to the credit of the
Catholics present there and quoted widely in the media, that they said that
it looked like a miracle, but only the Church after proper investigation
could come to that conclusion. Capillary action as described works only
with trees, which are alive and not through cemented blocks, which cover
the Crucifix, as is well known.

*Sanal Edamaruku is no technically qualified person and not being on the
spot for more than a few minutes, days after the occurrence, cannot claim
to have an answer to the happening. Faith is a personal matter and we are
content with it being so, not going into doctrinal or theological issues.
Sanal Edamaruku's comments on the Church expose his hatred and ill-will
against Catholicism and religion in general.*****

*The residents in my presence offered to dig the surroundings of the
?dripping Crucifix? and allow him to check it properly. However, he did not
want to do so. In the 10th March, 2012 debate on the same television
channel, he not only reiterated his earlier objectionable statements, but
even worse challenged the Archbishop to get into the witness box. *Hats off
to Bishop Agnelo for standing his ground, in the face of Sanal Edamaruku?s
provocative and irresponsible statements. The Bishop squarely asked for
proof of the Catholic Church's sanction or blessing of Mussolini?s or
Hitler's actions, which Sanal Edamaruku could not provide.

*The CSF would like to also ask - What stopped Sanal Edamaruku from
pursuing with the Police and authorities, to expose the cheating and tricks
by the Catholic Church, as he claims. On TV, he also speaks of Jesus
driving away with evil spirits, which he does not believe exists. Hence, he
does not believe as Christians do, that there can be evil spirits and
attributes ?possession? to psychiatric problems. He alleges that Indian
Catholics are ushering the Dark Ages in India.* The fact that he ignores
is, if he had said the same things to other faiths, like Islam, would he
have been allowed the same liberty, that the Christians afford him?

*The Constitution of India guarantees the freedom of faith - to preach,
practice and propagate one's religion. And it does not give any citizen the
right to insult the faith of another. Sanal Edamaruku refers to the Holy
Father disrespectfully as Mr. Pope, which is also not acceptable, as per
international protocol. He talks of Christianity having many blind beliefs
and superstitions, which according to him; we need to do away with.*

Finally, we have not been taking him on, simply because we believe in -
Praying for the Persecutors, Forgiving those who hurt us... *But there must
be rule of law. And the law, in the interest of social order and communal
harmony does not allow such persons unlimited freedom to abuse or ridicule.
The CSF will therefore let the law take its course.*****

*I am left with the impression that one needn?t send such persons to jail,
but rather to a mental asylum for treatment. And we rest our case here.*****

*Blessings and Respect,*****

*Your brother in Christ,*****

*Joseph Dias*****

** **

*Some time ago I had pointed out that the so-called "Catholic-Christian
Secular Forum (CSF)" based in Mumbai is not a secular forum at all, but
that it is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization similar to the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti because of its strident campaigns and threats
against literary freedom in fictional works of art such as "Da Vinci Code",
and its relentless engagement in sectarian religious propaganda through
hyperbolic websites such as http://www.persecutedchurch.org/ *

* *

*Now it turns out that this organization and other similar outfits are
persecuting an Indian rationalist named Sanal Edamaruku for exposing a fake
miracle in Mumbai, and for pointing out the obvious fact that such miracles
tend to be the ultimate scams (inclusive of the money raising kind) being
perpetrated on poor devout folk. The CSF and other similar organizations
have filed multiple criminal complaints and issued threats of dire
consequences against the outspoken Edamaruku, and have launched a
nationwide hate campaign against him through mass emails and other means. I
was forwarded one such email from the general secretary of "The CSF". *

* *

*Here is a news report regarding this hounding effort:*

* *

*
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/apr/150412-mumbai-Christian-forums-file-FIRS-after-IRA-chief-calls-miracle-water-a-scam.htm
*

* *

*The report also thankfully indicates that fortunately for the sake of
Indian secularism there may be some level-headed officers in the police
force in India who see through this charade for what it is.*

* *

*Here is an opinion editorial regarding this in Wired Magazine by the noted
American rationalist James Randi:*

* *

*http://www.wired.com/opinion/2012/04/reason-under-fire-in-india/ *

* *

*Cheers,*

* *

*Santosh*

* *

* *

* *
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-25 22:58:09 UTC
Permalink
I would like to correct the falsehoods being spread in the following post regarding what I have said about the so-called Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF). I have stated that the said forum is not a secular forum at all, and have told you why this is the case. I have also affirmed that the said forum ?is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization just like the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti in the following respects:

1. It has issued a threat and launched a hate propaganda campaign against an author who has written a fictional novel that it finds objectionable from its own parochial religious point of view.

2. It has?issued a threat, launched a hate propaganda campaign and?filed criminal charges under an outdated blasphemy law against a private citizen who exposed a fake miracle, and outspokenly expressed his constitutionally protected opinion on TV in a secular democracy.

3. It has persistently carried out inwardly focused religious propaganda campaigns creating the false impression that there is widespread persecution of its religion and religious institution in India under a website named "persecutedchurch.info".

Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is engaged in persecution of a private individual for merely expressing his opinion in public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against him through mass emails to members of its religious community, and by demanding criminal prosecution under?Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code of 1860. The accusatory mass email forwarded in the post below also shows a blatant emotional appeal to visceral religious outrage against one private citizen of India, as well as a?confused promotion of a miraculous explanation by resorting to an absurd denial of the well known physical phenomenon of capillary action, and the existence of a closed sewage water drainage gutter.?

Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: seculargoa at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:58 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.
** **
I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter and
I have the following observations / comments:****
**1.? ? **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS? is both odious and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.
?
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2012-04-26 14:35:26 UTC
Permalink
My preliminary comments on this 'rancourous' stuff ....(Marshall
Mendonza) MM contra SH (Santosh Helekar)


[1] SH: .....the so-called "Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF)"
based in Mumbai is not a secular forum at all, but that it is a
medieval religious chauvinistic organization SIMILAR to the Hindu
Janajagruti Samiti

jc 1: As far as 'religious chauvinism' is concerned, SH has a point IF
(for instance) the CSF prevented free speech and an individual's right
to see movies like the DaVinci Code.
--

[2] Joseph Dias: Sanal Edamaruku refers to the Holy Father
disrespectfully as Mr. Pope, which is also not acceptable, as per
international protocol.

jc2: Nonsense!. Where can I find this 'international protocol', and
under which law is it BINDING on a non-Catholic?
--

[3] Joseph Dias: Sanal Edamaruku alleges that Indian Catholics are
ushering the Dark Ages in India.

jc3: I suggest that the above allegation would stick only to those
Indian Catholics who (for instance) prevented free speech and an
individual's right to see movies like the DaVinci Code.
--

[4]SH: Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is
engaged in PERSECUTION of a private individual for merely expressing
his opinion in public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against
him through mass emails to members of its religious community, and by
demanding criminal prosecution under Section 295A of the Indian Penal
Code of 1860.

jc4: I am not so sure IF the term 'persecution' is applied correctly
here....please se #5 & 6
--

[5] 295A. Deliberate and malicious acts INTENDED to outrage religious
feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.

jc5: It would be interesting how the INTENT would be proved.
--

[6] http://tinyurl.com/slander1 / http://tinyurl.com/slander3: Sanal
Edamaruku, president of the Indian Rationalists Association for
calling the incident a MONEY-MAKING racket on a TV channel

jc6: IF Mr. Sanal Edamaruku has evidence of 'MONEY-MAKING' relative to
this incident, he should present it. If he does not, he should
withdraw the canard or face civil prosecution for LIBEL/SLANDER.;
Unless, he presents the 'temporary insanity' defence.
--

[7] http://tinyurl.com/slander3: Sanal Edamaruku, head of the
rationalist association and a heroic fighter against superstitions and
religious bigotry in India, faces persecution from the CATHOLIC
CHURCH.

jc7: From the CATHOLIC CHURCH? How unrational is that?!


In conclusion:

a: The coiners of the term 'Catholic-Christian Secular Forum' would do
well by looking up the meaning of the word 'secular'.

b: Those who claim to be Catholic, would do well to note that this is
21st century. Many more Catholics know their rights than antes. This
nonsense which happened wrt 'Da Vinci code' is an insult to the
intelligence of many educated Catholics. Ironically, it appears that
at least ONE more Catholic saw the 'Da Vinci code' movie, than would
normally have. And that person, to the best of my knowledge, is still
a strong practising Catholic.

c: IF the CSF wishes to achieve an equitable and trustable status in
this world, I'd suggest that they consider the following: (1) replace
the word 'secular' in its title. It is quite oxymoronic as it stands
presently. (2) Concentrate on dealing with Catholic issues first esp
the Child Abuse scandal. IF it does, it will note how progressive the
Church's new position is. (3) While (and I know this for a fact) the
Catholic clergy esp the nuns are repeatedly targeted - esp in the NE
of India, this CSF presently disseminates unreasonable and
sensationalised accounts of incidents.(4) Catholic organisations would
do well to encourage young Catholics to study and work very very hard,
and to achieve the best they can.

d: Individuals like Sanal Edamaruku, who are supposed to be the head
of the rationalist association and alleged heroic fighter, should
consider engaging their heads before running their mouths or banging
on their keyboards. Slandering/Libeling others does not make one very
'heroic'. Only a coward will slander someone without proof. And let's
face it, we are not referring to "ancient" history here ... or to
"facts" which may have been 'shredded or otherwise destroyed". We are
talking about real time.

jc
Marshall Mendonza
2012-04-28 17:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Dan Driscoll:

Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.

Response:
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
Excerpts:

THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites. the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.

The Maharashtra police investigating the explosions, ridiculed as damn
squibs by Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackarey, have established that the ?Hindu
Bomb? was assembled in one of the rooms in the Sanatan Sanstha?s ashram in
Panvel. The Indian Express, in a report published on Monday, June 23, 2008,
has sounded an alarm over the mobilization of hard-line Hindu outfits,
notably the Sanatan Sanstha (initially known as Sanatan Bhartiya
Saunskrutik Sanstha), the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti and the newly launched
organisation called ?Dharmashakti Sena? whose inaugural rally in April
showed young men dressed in military uniform.

(Protecting Hinduism - Sanatan Style by Pradnya Gaonkar: Goan Observer 28th
June, 2008)

the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha, which works under its banner, had been
chargesheeted for their role in the Thane theatre blasts of June 2008. The
theatre was targeted as it was screening the period film Jodhaa Akbar,
which shows Emperor Akbar marrying a Hindu girl, which many right wing
organisations had protested against. It was also the organisation that was
later chargesheeted for its role in the 2009 Madgaon blast in Goa.
Modi is seen inviting and thanking the same organisation, which the then
Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare had urged the home department to ban.
It has also been confirmed that Karkare had sent a proposal in August 2008
to ban the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha just months before he was killed in the
26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, as reported earlier by TEHELKA.

http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/social-political-issues/4500-modi-let-outfit-chargesheeted-terror-attacks-hold-meeting-his-constituency.html

The Maharashtra police has recommended that the state government ban
right-wing groups including Sanatan Sanstha and Abhinav Bharat. The names
of both the groups came up during the investigations of the Goa and the
Malegaon blast cases.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-09-08/india/30130015_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhinav-bharat-blast-case

MARGAO: Six members of the Sanatan Sanstha, two of them now dead, are among
the 11 persons accused by the National Investigation Agency (NIA),
which is probing the the October 16, 2009 Margao bomb blast and planting of
explosives at Sancoale, of conspiring to wage war against India by
committing a terrorist act. NIA on Monday filed a 30-page
common chargesheet with 4,000 pages of supporting documents in the two
incidents at the court of principal session judge U V Bakre constituted as
special court.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/sanatan-sanstha/recent/3


NAVI MUMBAI: Right-wing Hindu outfit Sanatan Sanstha has reacted to state's
decision to ban it. Abhay Vartak, Sanstha's chief spokesperson, said the
government has made baseless allegations about the organization's "terror
links'', and added that they will legally fight any such ban.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-12/mumbai/28683538_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhay-vartak-ban

Regards,

Marshall
Bernado Colaco
2012-04-29 12:41:26 UTC
Permalink
?36. BC Save Goa Campaign on GN.
?
BC
?
?
?
1. ? ? ?Babbar Khalsa International
2. ? ? ?Khalistan Commando Force
3. ? ? ?Khalistan Zindabad Force
4. ? ? ?International SikhYouth Federation
5. ? ? ?Lashkar-E-Taiba/Pasban-E-Ahle Hadis
6. ? ? ?Jaish-E-Mohammed/Tahrik-E-Furqan
7. ? ? ?Harkat-Ul-Mujahideen/Harkat-Ul-Ansar/Harkat-Ul-Jehad-E-Islami
8. ? ? ?Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen/Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen Pir Panjal Regiment
9. ? ? ?Al-Umar-Mujahideen
10. ? ? Jammu and Kashmir Islamic Front
11. ? ? United Liberation Front ofAssam (ULFA)
12. ? ? National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB)
13. ? ? People's LiberationArmy (PLA)
14. ? ? United National Liberation Front (UNLF)
15. ? ? People's Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK)
16. ? ? Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP)
17. ? ? KangleiYaol Kanba Lup (KYKL)
18. ? ? Manipur People's Liberation Front (MPLF)
19. ? ? AllTripuraTiger Force
20. ? ? National Liberation Front ofTripura
21. ? ? LiberationTigers ofTamil Eelam (LTTE)
22. ? ? Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI)
23. ? ? DeendarAnjuman
24. ? ? Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) - People's War, All
Its Formations and Front Organisations.
25. ? ? Maoist Communist Centre (MCC),All its Formations and Front Organisations
26. ? ? Al Badr
27. ? ? Jamiat-Ul-Mujahidden
28. ? ? Al-Qaida
29. ? ? Dukhtaran-E-Millat (DEM)
30. ? ? Tamil Nadu LiberationArmy (TNLA)
31. ? ? Tamil National RetrievalTroops (TNRT)
32. ? ? Akhil Bharat Nepali Ekta Samaj (ABNES)
33. ? ? Organisations listed in the Schedule to the U.N. Prevention and?Suppression of Terrorism (Implementaion of Security council?Resolutions) Order, 2007 made under section 2 of the United Nations?(Security Council) Act, 1947 (43 of 1947) and amended from time to?time
34. ? ? Communist Party of India (Maoist) all its formations and front organisations
35. ? ? Indian Mujahideen and all its formations and front organisations
Jesus Mario B. Fernandes
2012-04-29 23:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Mr Marshall for all your convinciing and impeccable arguments to refute this dubious attempt at equating CSF and HGF. Even a cursory look at the contents of both will suffice to say that a world of difference exists between them. To discredit the CSF by putting it on the same level as the HGF is both intellectual dishonesty and a cunning travesty to say the least. It seems it is Mr Helekar who is more paranoid because Marshall had merely asked Dan for some evidence to corroborate his earlier surmise. Wonder how Mr Helekar could be 'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be more appropriate. Is it because 'most people' would simply ignore such pathetic obsolete endeavours........And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels -the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing falsehoods?......The superfluous part of that insinuation is a mischief, if not silly. The CSF may not come under the 'secular' ambit but by no means it is any closer to the HGF in its activities. J-Mario Fernandes
Post by Santosh Helekar
QUOTE
Santosh apparently believes like Goebbels that if he repeats a?falsehood a hundred times, soon people will start believing it as the?truth.
UNQUOTE
.......Marshall Mendonza?
Cheers,
Santosh
----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 12:07 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. >
**************************************
Marshall Mendonza
2012-05-01 00:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar:
He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could
provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that
was factually false.

Response:
Here is evidence No 1:-

in the end the motive of the Church is always to convert (as always)......
Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html
But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and
what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy...... Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html

He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.......
Santosh Helekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html

Pl note in the first two posts above it is very clear that Sandesh is
speaking out against the CHURCH. Yet Santosh deliberately and with mischief
and maliciousness with the intention of maligning and smearing the CSF is
falsely misrepresenting Sandesh's post with the falsehood that he was
referring to the CSF.

I hope Santosh will stop embarassing himself and accept with honesty and
humility that he has been wrong.

Regards,

Marshall
Marshall Mendonza
2012-04-25 15:58:03 UTC
Permalink
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.

** **

I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter and
I have the following observations / comments:****

**1. **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS is both odious and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.

**2. **Regarding the ?miracle?, believers and rationalists are entitled
to their respective opinions or beliefs. However, no one has the unfettered
right without the resultant responsibility to make allegations without
adducing evidence.****

**3. **In a civilised and democratic country every individual has the
right to protest provided it is done in a civilised and democratic manner
and within the confines of law. I do not see the CSF or the other
organisations named in the report deviating from these norms.****

**4. **It is interesting that Santosh calls the filing of criminal
cases by the CSF and others against *Sanal Edamaruku as ?persecution? but
has in the past referred to the numerous attacks on Christians as
?victimhood? . *****

**5. **I am appending extracts of the CSF newsletter which puts the
entire issue in perspective. I am also providing youtube links of the
debate that took place on TV9 Channel.

http://youtu.be/TfJ6_ftih0s

I leave it to you Goanetters to decide whom to take seriously.****

** **

Regards****

** **

Marshall****

** **

*The CSF *****

*The case of the 'Dripping Crucifix' was in the news again recently with
the Mumbai Police calling Sanal Edamaruku, a self-proclaimed "rationalist"
to record his statement on complaints filed against him for hurting
religious sentiments. This he did live on TV twice, videos of which are
available with The CSF, which along with others is being blamed for curbing
his freedom of expression. What is not known is, what exactly Sanal
Edamaruku said, that caused the community to react so strongly.*****

The CSF is all freedom of expression, but not for the right to ridicule,
abuse, mock or poke fun at any faith or the clergy and followers of any
religion. *Sanal Edamaruku says he "faces persecution from the Catholic
church" as per his blog, though apart from issuing a clarification, the
Catholic Church has ignored him.* Rather, it was NGOs and individuals, many
of whom were non-Christians, which took up cudgels, in public interest.****

*The issue relates water observed to be dripping from a Crucifix in Irla of
suburban Mumbai, for no logically explainable reason. This fact was
captured on television, by cameras and witnessed by police and thousands,
who flocked to the spot. The CSF called it an unexplainable phenomenon and
challenged anyone to replicate the extraordinary happening. Or provide some
rationale or explanation for it. Even the media, present in large numbers
could not provide answers and publicly said so.*****

*The capillary action theory proposed by Sanal Edamaruku cannot according
to The CSF be replicated to raise water from the ground, through a concrete
base, on to a wooden cross, across a nail and drip the water from a
Crucifix, standing almost 7 feet above the ground. There is also no source
of water anywhere nearby or connected to the Crucifix on that bright sunny
day.*

On 5th March, 2012, when the extra-ordinary happened, a TV channel telecast
the occurrence. The media mentioned the non-Christian lady, who first
noticed it, residents and witnesses, like the parish priest, Fr. Vincent
Palett, Judith Monteiro, Gordon Jacobs, etc. The TV channel had Sanal
Edamaruku speaking live from Delhi, who based his observations purely on
hearsay, not having seen the dripping Crucifix himself. During the course
of the program, he made several objectionable and religiously offensive
statements, which many, like the Association of Concerned Catholics (AoCC),
Maharashtra Christian Youth Forum (MCYF), etc. besides The CSF took offense
too.

The activists and residents gave Sanal Edamaruku, ample opportunity to
apologize, as he had hurt the religious sentiments of Christians, by his
public statements in the mass media. He not only vehemently refused to
accede to their requests, but on the contrary added insult to injury by
making even more hurting remarks, there and also on a subsequent television
program. *His very obvious and stridently anti-Christian bias compelled me,
as general secretary of The CSF, to file the first FIR on 11th March, 2012
at the MIDC Police Station, as we were convinced of his malicious intention
to insult the faith, the clergy and hierarchy.*

*Please find some points raised in my FIR complaint with the police, based
on Sanal Edamaruku's public comments. It clearly exposes his blatant
anti-Catholic and also anti-religion stance. He is a self-confessed
atheist, who pokes fun and is generous in his derogatory remarks on various
religions, which comes through clearly in the video recordings.* ****

We leave it to you to decide, whether a person making such statements
should be allowed to go scot free, without even an enquiry. How would
believers of other faiths, like Islam or Buddhism have reacted to the
remarks presented below?**

* Sanal Edamaruku's Offensive Statements Recorded, which Hurt Christian
Sentiments*

*1. Christian clergy under the pretext of religion, regularly manufacture
miracles, on the basis of which they collect money.*
* *
*2. The clergy uses monies thus collected to build newer and bigger
churches. This is one such tamasha of many that are existing.*
* *
*3. There is a distinct possibility that the Christians made a hole in the
head of the Jesus statue, with an outlet at the feet for the water.*
* *
*4. We are told that Christians are not idol worshipers, but incidents and
crucifixes like this, expose at least the Catholics as idol worshipers.*
* *
*5. Christians are leaving established churches & to halt the exodus or to
prevent churches from becoming empty, priests resort to such gimmicks.*
* *
*6. If Christ was killed on the Cross, then it is not a thing to be
worshipped. Does anyone worship the gun with which Gandhi was shot? Then
why should Christians worship the Cross?*
* *
*7. Mother Mary is always shown crying. Priests even spread rumours that
her tears of blood can be seen and then collect money, which is misused.*
* *
*8. The Pope is anti-science and believes in exorcising evil spirits or
black magic. You may watch such tricks, but don't give these Christians
money.*
* *
*9. In a human, there is blood and other body fluids like tears, urine,
saliva, etc. Here we don't have blood coming out? So what is this water
that is dripping?*
* *
*10. The clergy is promoting bogus miracles, taking advantage and cheating
the gullible, with the Church having an exploitative structure for these
tricks*
* *
*11. The Church has been the cause of maximum damage in the world, with its
many superstitions, blind beliefs, etc. which the priests promote as it
becomes necessary. *
* *
*12. Even the 'miracle' that decided Mother Teresa's case for sainthood was
a fake one. Almost every Church is full of such cheap tricks performed to
get money in God's name.*

*Bishop Agnelo Gracias: The Official Church Reaction*

Bishop Agnelo Gracias clarifying the Church's stand said that as a general
observation, ?The official Church is slow to attribute supernatural causes
to ?extra-ordinary? phenomena we observe in life. As far as possible, the
Church tries to see if such phenomena can be explained by natural causes.
Further, the Church does not pay too much attention to these extraordinary
phenomena, even though she accepts the possibility that God may intervene
in human life in an extraordinary way ? what we often term a ?miraculous?
way.

On the ?dripping Crucifix?, Bishop Agnelo categorically stated that "one
can doubt if this water dripping has a supernatural cause. The Church has
NOT made any pronouncement on it. There is a lengthy scientific process
that has to be undergone before any official pronouncement is made. It is
quite possible that the dripping water may have a natural explanation.
However, what is surely objectionable are some statements made by the Delhi
interlocutor, Mr. Sanal Edamaruku and I would like to point out a couple of
these erroneous assertions:

* Contrary to the interlocutor?s claim, the Church does not advocate the
worship of images. There is a difference between honouring a thing and
making it divine, something to be worshipped. We respect and honour the
Scriptures of any religion not because the books are in themselves divine,
but because they have a special significance for the adherents of that
religion. We honour a cross because it is for us a reminder of the love of
Jesus who died for us

* A second gratuitous assertion is that the dripping Cross has been created
by priests who are out to make money! This Cross is not on Church property
and the one who is alleged to have noticed the dripping water was not even
a Catholic. No money has been collected by any priest. And surely, priests
do not build churches with such money, as is claimed by the interlocutor.

* A third unwarranted statement is that the Pope or the Church is against
Science. The interlocutor would only have to go to Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia on the internet, to see the list of eminent Catholic
scientists and how the Church has supported scientific research, since the
emergence of the European universities in the Middle Ages. There is a
Pontifical Academy of Sciences, founded in 1603, which seeks to pay honour
to pure science, wherever it is found, to assure its freedom and to promote
its research.

Bishop Agnelo concludes, "I realize that the interlocutor has made these
and other unwarranted statements out of ignorance ? he is unaware of facts.
The least he could do would be to apologize to the Catholic community for
hurting it, even though it might be inadvertently".

*The Editor's Take and Real Issues Side-tracked*

*At no point in time, did any one, other than Sanal Edamaruku, for obvious
reasons, claim it to be a 'miracle', even though not just for the
witnesses, but also the media, police and municipal staff, could not
explain the phenomenon. A plausible explanation, which makes sense is still
elusive. The capillary action theory propounded by Sanal Edamaruku can be
debunked for many reasons.*****

*The wood of the Cross is dry and no evidence of water being absorbed is
seen. There is no direct source of water anywhere nearby to supply the
large quantity of water flowing over days. *It is to the credit of the
Catholics present there and quoted widely in the media, that they said that
it looked like a miracle, but only the Church after proper investigation
could come to that conclusion. Capillary action as described works only
with trees, which are alive and not through cemented blocks, which cover
the Crucifix, as is well known.

*Sanal Edamaruku is no technically qualified person and not being on the
spot for more than a few minutes, days after the occurrence, cannot claim
to have an answer to the happening. Faith is a personal matter and we are
content with it being so, not going into doctrinal or theological issues.
Sanal Edamaruku's comments on the Church expose his hatred and ill-will
against Catholicism and religion in general.*****

*The residents in my presence offered to dig the surroundings of the
?dripping Crucifix? and allow him to check it properly. However, he did not
want to do so. In the 10th March, 2012 debate on the same television
channel, he not only reiterated his earlier objectionable statements, but
even worse challenged the Archbishop to get into the witness box. *Hats off
to Bishop Agnelo for standing his ground, in the face of Sanal Edamaruku?s
provocative and irresponsible statements. The Bishop squarely asked for
proof of the Catholic Church's sanction or blessing of Mussolini?s or
Hitler's actions, which Sanal Edamaruku could not provide.

*The CSF would like to also ask - What stopped Sanal Edamaruku from
pursuing with the Police and authorities, to expose the cheating and tricks
by the Catholic Church, as he claims. On TV, he also speaks of Jesus
driving away with evil spirits, which he does not believe exists. Hence, he
does not believe as Christians do, that there can be evil spirits and
attributes ?possession? to psychiatric problems. He alleges that Indian
Catholics are ushering the Dark Ages in India.* The fact that he ignores
is, if he had said the same things to other faiths, like Islam, would he
have been allowed the same liberty, that the Christians afford him?

*The Constitution of India guarantees the freedom of faith - to preach,
practice and propagate one's religion. And it does not give any citizen the
right to insult the faith of another. Sanal Edamaruku refers to the Holy
Father disrespectfully as Mr. Pope, which is also not acceptable, as per
international protocol. He talks of Christianity having many blind beliefs
and superstitions, which according to him; we need to do away with.*

Finally, we have not been taking him on, simply because we believe in -
Praying for the Persecutors, Forgiving those who hurt us... *But there must
be rule of law. And the law, in the interest of social order and communal
harmony does not allow such persons unlimited freedom to abuse or ridicule.
The CSF will therefore let the law take its course.*****

*I am left with the impression that one needn?t send such persons to jail,
but rather to a mental asylum for treatment. And we rest our case here.*****

*Blessings and Respect,*****

*Your brother in Christ,*****

*Joseph Dias*****

** **

*Some time ago I had pointed out that the so-called "Catholic-Christian
Secular Forum (CSF)" based in Mumbai is not a secular forum at all, but
that it is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization similar to the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti because of its strident campaigns and threats
against literary freedom in fictional works of art such as "Da Vinci Code",
and its relentless engagement in sectarian religious propaganda through
hyperbolic websites such as http://www.persecutedchurch.org/ *

* *

*Now it turns out that this organization and other similar outfits are
persecuting an Indian rationalist named Sanal Edamaruku for exposing a fake
miracle in Mumbai, and for pointing out the obvious fact that such miracles
tend to be the ultimate scams (inclusive of the money raising kind) being
perpetrated on poor devout folk. The CSF and other similar organizations
have filed multiple criminal complaints and issued threats of dire
consequences against the outspoken Edamaruku, and have launched a
nationwide hate campaign against him through mass emails and other means. I
was forwarded one such email from the general secretary of "The CSF". *

* *

*Here is a news report regarding this hounding effort:*

* *

*
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/apr/150412-mumbai-Christian-forums-file-FIRS-after-IRA-chief-calls-miracle-water-a-scam.htm
*

* *

*The report also thankfully indicates that fortunately for the sake of
Indian secularism there may be some level-headed officers in the police
force in India who see through this charade for what it is.*

* *

*Here is an opinion editorial regarding this in Wired Magazine by the noted
American rationalist James Randi:*

* *

*http://www.wired.com/opinion/2012/04/reason-under-fire-in-india/ *

* *

*Cheers,*

* *

*Santosh*

* *

* *

* *
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-25 22:58:09 UTC
Permalink
I would like to correct the falsehoods being spread in the following post regarding what I have said about the so-called Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF). I have stated that the said forum is not a secular forum at all, and have told you why this is the case. I have also affirmed that the said forum ?is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization just like the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti in the following respects:

1. It has issued a threat and launched a hate propaganda campaign against an author who has written a fictional novel that it finds objectionable from its own parochial religious point of view.

2. It has?issued a threat, launched a hate propaganda campaign and?filed criminal charges under an outdated blasphemy law against a private citizen who exposed a fake miracle, and outspokenly expressed his constitutionally protected opinion on TV in a secular democracy.

3. It has persistently carried out inwardly focused religious propaganda campaigns creating the false impression that there is widespread persecution of its religion and religious institution in India under a website named "persecutedchurch.info".

Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is engaged in persecution of a private individual for merely expressing his opinion in public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against him through mass emails to members of its religious community, and by demanding criminal prosecution under?Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code of 1860. The accusatory mass email forwarded in the post below also shows a blatant emotional appeal to visceral religious outrage against one private citizen of India, as well as a?confused promotion of a miraculous explanation by resorting to an absurd denial of the well known physical phenomenon of capillary action, and the existence of a closed sewage water drainage gutter.?

Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: seculargoa at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:58 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.
** **
I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter and
I have the following observations / comments:****
**1.? ? **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS? is both odious and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.
?
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2012-04-26 14:35:26 UTC
Permalink
My preliminary comments on this 'rancourous' stuff ....(Marshall
Mendonza) MM contra SH (Santosh Helekar)


[1] SH: .....the so-called "Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF)"
based in Mumbai is not a secular forum at all, but that it is a
medieval religious chauvinistic organization SIMILAR to the Hindu
Janajagruti Samiti

jc 1: As far as 'religious chauvinism' is concerned, SH has a point IF
(for instance) the CSF prevented free speech and an individual's right
to see movies like the DaVinci Code.
--

[2] Joseph Dias: Sanal Edamaruku refers to the Holy Father
disrespectfully as Mr. Pope, which is also not acceptable, as per
international protocol.

jc2: Nonsense!. Where can I find this 'international protocol', and
under which law is it BINDING on a non-Catholic?
--

[3] Joseph Dias: Sanal Edamaruku alleges that Indian Catholics are
ushering the Dark Ages in India.

jc3: I suggest that the above allegation would stick only to those
Indian Catholics who (for instance) prevented free speech and an
individual's right to see movies like the DaVinci Code.
--

[4]SH: Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is
engaged in PERSECUTION of a private individual for merely expressing
his opinion in public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against
him through mass emails to members of its religious community, and by
demanding criminal prosecution under Section 295A of the Indian Penal
Code of 1860.

jc4: I am not so sure IF the term 'persecution' is applied correctly
here....please se #5 & 6
--

[5] 295A. Deliberate and malicious acts INTENDED to outrage religious
feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.

jc5: It would be interesting how the INTENT would be proved.
--

[6] http://tinyurl.com/slander1 / http://tinyurl.com/slander3: Sanal
Edamaruku, president of the Indian Rationalists Association for
calling the incident a MONEY-MAKING racket on a TV channel

jc6: IF Mr. Sanal Edamaruku has evidence of 'MONEY-MAKING' relative to
this incident, he should present it. If he does not, he should
withdraw the canard or face civil prosecution for LIBEL/SLANDER.;
Unless, he presents the 'temporary insanity' defence.
--

[7] http://tinyurl.com/slander3: Sanal Edamaruku, head of the
rationalist association and a heroic fighter against superstitions and
religious bigotry in India, faces persecution from the CATHOLIC
CHURCH.

jc7: From the CATHOLIC CHURCH? How unrational is that?!


In conclusion:

a: The coiners of the term 'Catholic-Christian Secular Forum' would do
well by looking up the meaning of the word 'secular'.

b: Those who claim to be Catholic, would do well to note that this is
21st century. Many more Catholics know their rights than antes. This
nonsense which happened wrt 'Da Vinci code' is an insult to the
intelligence of many educated Catholics. Ironically, it appears that
at least ONE more Catholic saw the 'Da Vinci code' movie, than would
normally have. And that person, to the best of my knowledge, is still
a strong practising Catholic.

c: IF the CSF wishes to achieve an equitable and trustable status in
this world, I'd suggest that they consider the following: (1) replace
the word 'secular' in its title. It is quite oxymoronic as it stands
presently. (2) Concentrate on dealing with Catholic issues first esp
the Child Abuse scandal. IF it does, it will note how progressive the
Church's new position is. (3) While (and I know this for a fact) the
Catholic clergy esp the nuns are repeatedly targeted - esp in the NE
of India, this CSF presently disseminates unreasonable and
sensationalised accounts of incidents.(4) Catholic organisations would
do well to encourage young Catholics to study and work very very hard,
and to achieve the best they can.

d: Individuals like Sanal Edamaruku, who are supposed to be the head
of the rationalist association and alleged heroic fighter, should
consider engaging their heads before running their mouths or banging
on their keyboards. Slandering/Libeling others does not make one very
'heroic'. Only a coward will slander someone without proof. And let's
face it, we are not referring to "ancient" history here ... or to
"facts" which may have been 'shredded or otherwise destroyed". We are
talking about real time.

jc
Marshall Mendonza
2012-04-28 17:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Dan Driscoll:

Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.

Response:
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
Excerpts:

THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites. the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.

The Maharashtra police investigating the explosions, ridiculed as damn
squibs by Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackarey, have established that the ?Hindu
Bomb? was assembled in one of the rooms in the Sanatan Sanstha?s ashram in
Panvel. The Indian Express, in a report published on Monday, June 23, 2008,
has sounded an alarm over the mobilization of hard-line Hindu outfits,
notably the Sanatan Sanstha (initially known as Sanatan Bhartiya
Saunskrutik Sanstha), the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti and the newly launched
organisation called ?Dharmashakti Sena? whose inaugural rally in April
showed young men dressed in military uniform.

(Protecting Hinduism - Sanatan Style by Pradnya Gaonkar: Goan Observer 28th
June, 2008)

the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha, which works under its banner, had been
chargesheeted for their role in the Thane theatre blasts of June 2008. The
theatre was targeted as it was screening the period film Jodhaa Akbar,
which shows Emperor Akbar marrying a Hindu girl, which many right wing
organisations had protested against. It was also the organisation that was
later chargesheeted for its role in the 2009 Madgaon blast in Goa.
Modi is seen inviting and thanking the same organisation, which the then
Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare had urged the home department to ban.
It has also been confirmed that Karkare had sent a proposal in August 2008
to ban the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha just months before he was killed in the
26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, as reported earlier by TEHELKA.

http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/social-political-issues/4500-modi-let-outfit-chargesheeted-terror-attacks-hold-meeting-his-constituency.html

The Maharashtra police has recommended that the state government ban
right-wing groups including Sanatan Sanstha and Abhinav Bharat. The names
of both the groups came up during the investigations of the Goa and the
Malegaon blast cases.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-09-08/india/30130015_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhinav-bharat-blast-case

MARGAO: Six members of the Sanatan Sanstha, two of them now dead, are among
the 11 persons accused by the National Investigation Agency (NIA),
which is probing the the October 16, 2009 Margao bomb blast and planting of
explosives at Sancoale, of conspiring to wage war against India by
committing a terrorist act. NIA on Monday filed a 30-page
common chargesheet with 4,000 pages of supporting documents in the two
incidents at the court of principal session judge U V Bakre constituted as
special court.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/sanatan-sanstha/recent/3


NAVI MUMBAI: Right-wing Hindu outfit Sanatan Sanstha has reacted to state's
decision to ban it. Abhay Vartak, Sanstha's chief spokesperson, said the
government has made baseless allegations about the organization's "terror
links'', and added that they will legally fight any such ban.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-12/mumbai/28683538_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhay-vartak-ban

Regards,

Marshall
Bernado Colaco
2012-04-29 12:41:26 UTC
Permalink
?36. BC Save Goa Campaign on GN.
?
BC
?
?
?
1. ? ? ?Babbar Khalsa International
2. ? ? ?Khalistan Commando Force
3. ? ? ?Khalistan Zindabad Force
4. ? ? ?International SikhYouth Federation
5. ? ? ?Lashkar-E-Taiba/Pasban-E-Ahle Hadis
6. ? ? ?Jaish-E-Mohammed/Tahrik-E-Furqan
7. ? ? ?Harkat-Ul-Mujahideen/Harkat-Ul-Ansar/Harkat-Ul-Jehad-E-Islami
8. ? ? ?Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen/Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen Pir Panjal Regiment
9. ? ? ?Al-Umar-Mujahideen
10. ? ? Jammu and Kashmir Islamic Front
11. ? ? United Liberation Front ofAssam (ULFA)
12. ? ? National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB)
13. ? ? People's LiberationArmy (PLA)
14. ? ? United National Liberation Front (UNLF)
15. ? ? People's Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK)
16. ? ? Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP)
17. ? ? KangleiYaol Kanba Lup (KYKL)
18. ? ? Manipur People's Liberation Front (MPLF)
19. ? ? AllTripuraTiger Force
20. ? ? National Liberation Front ofTripura
21. ? ? LiberationTigers ofTamil Eelam (LTTE)
22. ? ? Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI)
23. ? ? DeendarAnjuman
24. ? ? Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) - People's War, All
Its Formations and Front Organisations.
25. ? ? Maoist Communist Centre (MCC),All its Formations and Front Organisations
26. ? ? Al Badr
27. ? ? Jamiat-Ul-Mujahidden
28. ? ? Al-Qaida
29. ? ? Dukhtaran-E-Millat (DEM)
30. ? ? Tamil Nadu LiberationArmy (TNLA)
31. ? ? Tamil National RetrievalTroops (TNRT)
32. ? ? Akhil Bharat Nepali Ekta Samaj (ABNES)
33. ? ? Organisations listed in the Schedule to the U.N. Prevention and?Suppression of Terrorism (Implementaion of Security council?Resolutions) Order, 2007 made under section 2 of the United Nations?(Security Council) Act, 1947 (43 of 1947) and amended from time to?time
34. ? ? Communist Party of India (Maoist) all its formations and front organisations
35. ? ? Indian Mujahideen and all its formations and front organisations
Jesus Mario B. Fernandes
2012-04-29 23:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Mr Marshall for all your convinciing and impeccable arguments to refute this dubious attempt at equating CSF and HGF. Even a cursory look at the contents of both will suffice to say that a world of difference exists between them. To discredit the CSF by putting it on the same level as the HGF is both intellectual dishonesty and a cunning travesty to say the least. It seems it is Mr Helekar who is more paranoid because Marshall had merely asked Dan for some evidence to corroborate his earlier surmise. Wonder how Mr Helekar could be 'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be more appropriate. Is it because 'most people' would simply ignore such pathetic obsolete endeavours........And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels -the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing falsehoods?......The superfluous part of that insinuation is a mischief, if not silly. The CSF may not come under the 'secular' ambit but by no means it is any closer to the HGF in its activities. J-Mario Fernandes
Post by Santosh Helekar
QUOTE
Santosh apparently believes like Goebbels that if he repeats a?falsehood a hundred times, soon people will start believing it as the?truth.
UNQUOTE
.......Marshall Mendonza?
Cheers,
Santosh
----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 12:07 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. >
**************************************
Marshall Mendonza
2012-05-01 00:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar:
He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could
provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that
was factually false.

Response:
Here is evidence No 1:-

in the end the motive of the Church is always to convert (as always)......
Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html
But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and
what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy...... Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html

He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.......
Santosh Helekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html

Pl note in the first two posts above it is very clear that Sandesh is
speaking out against the CHURCH. Yet Santosh deliberately and with mischief
and maliciousness with the intention of maligning and smearing the CSF is
falsely misrepresenting Sandesh's post with the falsehood that he was
referring to the CSF.

I hope Santosh will stop embarassing himself and accept with honesty and
humility that he has been wrong.

Regards,

Marshall
Marshall Mendonza
2012-04-25 15:58:03 UTC
Permalink
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.

** **

I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter and
I have the following observations / comments:****

**1. **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS is both odious and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.

**2. **Regarding the ?miracle?, believers and rationalists are entitled
to their respective opinions or beliefs. However, no one has the unfettered
right without the resultant responsibility to make allegations without
adducing evidence.****

**3. **In a civilised and democratic country every individual has the
right to protest provided it is done in a civilised and democratic manner
and within the confines of law. I do not see the CSF or the other
organisations named in the report deviating from these norms.****

**4. **It is interesting that Santosh calls the filing of criminal
cases by the CSF and others against *Sanal Edamaruku as ?persecution? but
has in the past referred to the numerous attacks on Christians as
?victimhood? . *****

**5. **I am appending extracts of the CSF newsletter which puts the
entire issue in perspective. I am also providing youtube links of the
debate that took place on TV9 Channel.

http://youtu.be/TfJ6_ftih0s

I leave it to you Goanetters to decide whom to take seriously.****

** **

Regards****

** **

Marshall****

** **

*The CSF *****

*The case of the 'Dripping Crucifix' was in the news again recently with
the Mumbai Police calling Sanal Edamaruku, a self-proclaimed "rationalist"
to record his statement on complaints filed against him for hurting
religious sentiments. This he did live on TV twice, videos of which are
available with The CSF, which along with others is being blamed for curbing
his freedom of expression. What is not known is, what exactly Sanal
Edamaruku said, that caused the community to react so strongly.*****

The CSF is all freedom of expression, but not for the right to ridicule,
abuse, mock or poke fun at any faith or the clergy and followers of any
religion. *Sanal Edamaruku says he "faces persecution from the Catholic
church" as per his blog, though apart from issuing a clarification, the
Catholic Church has ignored him.* Rather, it was NGOs and individuals, many
of whom were non-Christians, which took up cudgels, in public interest.****

*The issue relates water observed to be dripping from a Crucifix in Irla of
suburban Mumbai, for no logically explainable reason. This fact was
captured on television, by cameras and witnessed by police and thousands,
who flocked to the spot. The CSF called it an unexplainable phenomenon and
challenged anyone to replicate the extraordinary happening. Or provide some
rationale or explanation for it. Even the media, present in large numbers
could not provide answers and publicly said so.*****

*The capillary action theory proposed by Sanal Edamaruku cannot according
to The CSF be replicated to raise water from the ground, through a concrete
base, on to a wooden cross, across a nail and drip the water from a
Crucifix, standing almost 7 feet above the ground. There is also no source
of water anywhere nearby or connected to the Crucifix on that bright sunny
day.*

On 5th March, 2012, when the extra-ordinary happened, a TV channel telecast
the occurrence. The media mentioned the non-Christian lady, who first
noticed it, residents and witnesses, like the parish priest, Fr. Vincent
Palett, Judith Monteiro, Gordon Jacobs, etc. The TV channel had Sanal
Edamaruku speaking live from Delhi, who based his observations purely on
hearsay, not having seen the dripping Crucifix himself. During the course
of the program, he made several objectionable and religiously offensive
statements, which many, like the Association of Concerned Catholics (AoCC),
Maharashtra Christian Youth Forum (MCYF), etc. besides The CSF took offense
too.

The activists and residents gave Sanal Edamaruku, ample opportunity to
apologize, as he had hurt the religious sentiments of Christians, by his
public statements in the mass media. He not only vehemently refused to
accede to their requests, but on the contrary added insult to injury by
making even more hurting remarks, there and also on a subsequent television
program. *His very obvious and stridently anti-Christian bias compelled me,
as general secretary of The CSF, to file the first FIR on 11th March, 2012
at the MIDC Police Station, as we were convinced of his malicious intention
to insult the faith, the clergy and hierarchy.*

*Please find some points raised in my FIR complaint with the police, based
on Sanal Edamaruku's public comments. It clearly exposes his blatant
anti-Catholic and also anti-religion stance. He is a self-confessed
atheist, who pokes fun and is generous in his derogatory remarks on various
religions, which comes through clearly in the video recordings.* ****

We leave it to you to decide, whether a person making such statements
should be allowed to go scot free, without even an enquiry. How would
believers of other faiths, like Islam or Buddhism have reacted to the
remarks presented below?**

* Sanal Edamaruku's Offensive Statements Recorded, which Hurt Christian
Sentiments*

*1. Christian clergy under the pretext of religion, regularly manufacture
miracles, on the basis of which they collect money.*
* *
*2. The clergy uses monies thus collected to build newer and bigger
churches. This is one such tamasha of many that are existing.*
* *
*3. There is a distinct possibility that the Christians made a hole in the
head of the Jesus statue, with an outlet at the feet for the water.*
* *
*4. We are told that Christians are not idol worshipers, but incidents and
crucifixes like this, expose at least the Catholics as idol worshipers.*
* *
*5. Christians are leaving established churches & to halt the exodus or to
prevent churches from becoming empty, priests resort to such gimmicks.*
* *
*6. If Christ was killed on the Cross, then it is not a thing to be
worshipped. Does anyone worship the gun with which Gandhi was shot? Then
why should Christians worship the Cross?*
* *
*7. Mother Mary is always shown crying. Priests even spread rumours that
her tears of blood can be seen and then collect money, which is misused.*
* *
*8. The Pope is anti-science and believes in exorcising evil spirits or
black magic. You may watch such tricks, but don't give these Christians
money.*
* *
*9. In a human, there is blood and other body fluids like tears, urine,
saliva, etc. Here we don't have blood coming out? So what is this water
that is dripping?*
* *
*10. The clergy is promoting bogus miracles, taking advantage and cheating
the gullible, with the Church having an exploitative structure for these
tricks*
* *
*11. The Church has been the cause of maximum damage in the world, with its
many superstitions, blind beliefs, etc. which the priests promote as it
becomes necessary. *
* *
*12. Even the 'miracle' that decided Mother Teresa's case for sainthood was
a fake one. Almost every Church is full of such cheap tricks performed to
get money in God's name.*

*Bishop Agnelo Gracias: The Official Church Reaction*

Bishop Agnelo Gracias clarifying the Church's stand said that as a general
observation, ?The official Church is slow to attribute supernatural causes
to ?extra-ordinary? phenomena we observe in life. As far as possible, the
Church tries to see if such phenomena can be explained by natural causes.
Further, the Church does not pay too much attention to these extraordinary
phenomena, even though she accepts the possibility that God may intervene
in human life in an extraordinary way ? what we often term a ?miraculous?
way.

On the ?dripping Crucifix?, Bishop Agnelo categorically stated that "one
can doubt if this water dripping has a supernatural cause. The Church has
NOT made any pronouncement on it. There is a lengthy scientific process
that has to be undergone before any official pronouncement is made. It is
quite possible that the dripping water may have a natural explanation.
However, what is surely objectionable are some statements made by the Delhi
interlocutor, Mr. Sanal Edamaruku and I would like to point out a couple of
these erroneous assertions:

* Contrary to the interlocutor?s claim, the Church does not advocate the
worship of images. There is a difference between honouring a thing and
making it divine, something to be worshipped. We respect and honour the
Scriptures of any religion not because the books are in themselves divine,
but because they have a special significance for the adherents of that
religion. We honour a cross because it is for us a reminder of the love of
Jesus who died for us

* A second gratuitous assertion is that the dripping Cross has been created
by priests who are out to make money! This Cross is not on Church property
and the one who is alleged to have noticed the dripping water was not even
a Catholic. No money has been collected by any priest. And surely, priests
do not build churches with such money, as is claimed by the interlocutor.

* A third unwarranted statement is that the Pope or the Church is against
Science. The interlocutor would only have to go to Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia on the internet, to see the list of eminent Catholic
scientists and how the Church has supported scientific research, since the
emergence of the European universities in the Middle Ages. There is a
Pontifical Academy of Sciences, founded in 1603, which seeks to pay honour
to pure science, wherever it is found, to assure its freedom and to promote
its research.

Bishop Agnelo concludes, "I realize that the interlocutor has made these
and other unwarranted statements out of ignorance ? he is unaware of facts.
The least he could do would be to apologize to the Catholic community for
hurting it, even though it might be inadvertently".

*The Editor's Take and Real Issues Side-tracked*

*At no point in time, did any one, other than Sanal Edamaruku, for obvious
reasons, claim it to be a 'miracle', even though not just for the
witnesses, but also the media, police and municipal staff, could not
explain the phenomenon. A plausible explanation, which makes sense is still
elusive. The capillary action theory propounded by Sanal Edamaruku can be
debunked for many reasons.*****

*The wood of the Cross is dry and no evidence of water being absorbed is
seen. There is no direct source of water anywhere nearby to supply the
large quantity of water flowing over days. *It is to the credit of the
Catholics present there and quoted widely in the media, that they said that
it looked like a miracle, but only the Church after proper investigation
could come to that conclusion. Capillary action as described works only
with trees, which are alive and not through cemented blocks, which cover
the Crucifix, as is well known.

*Sanal Edamaruku is no technically qualified person and not being on the
spot for more than a few minutes, days after the occurrence, cannot claim
to have an answer to the happening. Faith is a personal matter and we are
content with it being so, not going into doctrinal or theological issues.
Sanal Edamaruku's comments on the Church expose his hatred and ill-will
against Catholicism and religion in general.*****

*The residents in my presence offered to dig the surroundings of the
?dripping Crucifix? and allow him to check it properly. However, he did not
want to do so. In the 10th March, 2012 debate on the same television
channel, he not only reiterated his earlier objectionable statements, but
even worse challenged the Archbishop to get into the witness box. *Hats off
to Bishop Agnelo for standing his ground, in the face of Sanal Edamaruku?s
provocative and irresponsible statements. The Bishop squarely asked for
proof of the Catholic Church's sanction or blessing of Mussolini?s or
Hitler's actions, which Sanal Edamaruku could not provide.

*The CSF would like to also ask - What stopped Sanal Edamaruku from
pursuing with the Police and authorities, to expose the cheating and tricks
by the Catholic Church, as he claims. On TV, he also speaks of Jesus
driving away with evil spirits, which he does not believe exists. Hence, he
does not believe as Christians do, that there can be evil spirits and
attributes ?possession? to psychiatric problems. He alleges that Indian
Catholics are ushering the Dark Ages in India.* The fact that he ignores
is, if he had said the same things to other faiths, like Islam, would he
have been allowed the same liberty, that the Christians afford him?

*The Constitution of India guarantees the freedom of faith - to preach,
practice and propagate one's religion. And it does not give any citizen the
right to insult the faith of another. Sanal Edamaruku refers to the Holy
Father disrespectfully as Mr. Pope, which is also not acceptable, as per
international protocol. He talks of Christianity having many blind beliefs
and superstitions, which according to him; we need to do away with.*

Finally, we have not been taking him on, simply because we believe in -
Praying for the Persecutors, Forgiving those who hurt us... *But there must
be rule of law. And the law, in the interest of social order and communal
harmony does not allow such persons unlimited freedom to abuse or ridicule.
The CSF will therefore let the law take its course.*****

*I am left with the impression that one needn?t send such persons to jail,
but rather to a mental asylum for treatment. And we rest our case here.*****

*Blessings and Respect,*****

*Your brother in Christ,*****

*Joseph Dias*****

** **

*Some time ago I had pointed out that the so-called "Catholic-Christian
Secular Forum (CSF)" based in Mumbai is not a secular forum at all, but
that it is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization similar to the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti because of its strident campaigns and threats
against literary freedom in fictional works of art such as "Da Vinci Code",
and its relentless engagement in sectarian religious propaganda through
hyperbolic websites such as http://www.persecutedchurch.org/ *

* *

*Now it turns out that this organization and other similar outfits are
persecuting an Indian rationalist named Sanal Edamaruku for exposing a fake
miracle in Mumbai, and for pointing out the obvious fact that such miracles
tend to be the ultimate scams (inclusive of the money raising kind) being
perpetrated on poor devout folk. The CSF and other similar organizations
have filed multiple criminal complaints and issued threats of dire
consequences against the outspoken Edamaruku, and have launched a
nationwide hate campaign against him through mass emails and other means. I
was forwarded one such email from the general secretary of "The CSF". *

* *

*Here is a news report regarding this hounding effort:*

* *

*
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/apr/150412-mumbai-Christian-forums-file-FIRS-after-IRA-chief-calls-miracle-water-a-scam.htm
*

* *

*The report also thankfully indicates that fortunately for the sake of
Indian secularism there may be some level-headed officers in the police
force in India who see through this charade for what it is.*

* *

*Here is an opinion editorial regarding this in Wired Magazine by the noted
American rationalist James Randi:*

* *

*http://www.wired.com/opinion/2012/04/reason-under-fire-in-india/ *

* *

*Cheers,*

* *

*Santosh*

* *

* *

* *
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-25 22:58:09 UTC
Permalink
I would like to correct the falsehoods being spread in the following post regarding what I have said about the so-called Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF). I have stated that the said forum is not a secular forum at all, and have told you why this is the case. I have also affirmed that the said forum ?is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization just like the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti in the following respects:

1. It has issued a threat and launched a hate propaganda campaign against an author who has written a fictional novel that it finds objectionable from its own parochial religious point of view.

2. It has?issued a threat, launched a hate propaganda campaign and?filed criminal charges under an outdated blasphemy law against a private citizen who exposed a fake miracle, and outspokenly expressed his constitutionally protected opinion on TV in a secular democracy.

3. It has persistently carried out inwardly focused religious propaganda campaigns creating the false impression that there is widespread persecution of its religion and religious institution in India under a website named "persecutedchurch.info".

Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is engaged in persecution of a private individual for merely expressing his opinion in public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against him through mass emails to members of its religious community, and by demanding criminal prosecution under?Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code of 1860. The accusatory mass email forwarded in the post below also shows a blatant emotional appeal to visceral religious outrage against one private citizen of India, as well as a?confused promotion of a miraculous explanation by resorting to an absurd denial of the well known physical phenomenon of capillary action, and the existence of a closed sewage water drainage gutter.?

Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: seculargoa at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:58 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.
** **
I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter and
I have the following observations / comments:****
**1.? ? **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS? is both odious and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.
?
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2012-04-26 14:35:26 UTC
Permalink
My preliminary comments on this 'rancourous' stuff ....(Marshall
Mendonza) MM contra SH (Santosh Helekar)


[1] SH: .....the so-called "Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF)"
based in Mumbai is not a secular forum at all, but that it is a
medieval religious chauvinistic organization SIMILAR to the Hindu
Janajagruti Samiti

jc 1: As far as 'religious chauvinism' is concerned, SH has a point IF
(for instance) the CSF prevented free speech and an individual's right
to see movies like the DaVinci Code.
--

[2] Joseph Dias: Sanal Edamaruku refers to the Holy Father
disrespectfully as Mr. Pope, which is also not acceptable, as per
international protocol.

jc2: Nonsense!. Where can I find this 'international protocol', and
under which law is it BINDING on a non-Catholic?
--

[3] Joseph Dias: Sanal Edamaruku alleges that Indian Catholics are
ushering the Dark Ages in India.

jc3: I suggest that the above allegation would stick only to those
Indian Catholics who (for instance) prevented free speech and an
individual's right to see movies like the DaVinci Code.
--

[4]SH: Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is
engaged in PERSECUTION of a private individual for merely expressing
his opinion in public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against
him through mass emails to members of its religious community, and by
demanding criminal prosecution under Section 295A of the Indian Penal
Code of 1860.

jc4: I am not so sure IF the term 'persecution' is applied correctly
here....please se #5 & 6
--

[5] 295A. Deliberate and malicious acts INTENDED to outrage religious
feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.

jc5: It would be interesting how the INTENT would be proved.
--

[6] http://tinyurl.com/slander1 / http://tinyurl.com/slander3: Sanal
Edamaruku, president of the Indian Rationalists Association for
calling the incident a MONEY-MAKING racket on a TV channel

jc6: IF Mr. Sanal Edamaruku has evidence of 'MONEY-MAKING' relative to
this incident, he should present it. If he does not, he should
withdraw the canard or face civil prosecution for LIBEL/SLANDER.;
Unless, he presents the 'temporary insanity' defence.
--

[7] http://tinyurl.com/slander3: Sanal Edamaruku, head of the
rationalist association and a heroic fighter against superstitions and
religious bigotry in India, faces persecution from the CATHOLIC
CHURCH.

jc7: From the CATHOLIC CHURCH? How unrational is that?!


In conclusion:

a: The coiners of the term 'Catholic-Christian Secular Forum' would do
well by looking up the meaning of the word 'secular'.

b: Those who claim to be Catholic, would do well to note that this is
21st century. Many more Catholics know their rights than antes. This
nonsense which happened wrt 'Da Vinci code' is an insult to the
intelligence of many educated Catholics. Ironically, it appears that
at least ONE more Catholic saw the 'Da Vinci code' movie, than would
normally have. And that person, to the best of my knowledge, is still
a strong practising Catholic.

c: IF the CSF wishes to achieve an equitable and trustable status in
this world, I'd suggest that they consider the following: (1) replace
the word 'secular' in its title. It is quite oxymoronic as it stands
presently. (2) Concentrate on dealing with Catholic issues first esp
the Child Abuse scandal. IF it does, it will note how progressive the
Church's new position is. (3) While (and I know this for a fact) the
Catholic clergy esp the nuns are repeatedly targeted - esp in the NE
of India, this CSF presently disseminates unreasonable and
sensationalised accounts of incidents.(4) Catholic organisations would
do well to encourage young Catholics to study and work very very hard,
and to achieve the best they can.

d: Individuals like Sanal Edamaruku, who are supposed to be the head
of the rationalist association and alleged heroic fighter, should
consider engaging their heads before running their mouths or banging
on their keyboards. Slandering/Libeling others does not make one very
'heroic'. Only a coward will slander someone without proof. And let's
face it, we are not referring to "ancient" history here ... or to
"facts" which may have been 'shredded or otherwise destroyed". We are
talking about real time.

jc
Marshall Mendonza
2012-04-28 17:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Dan Driscoll:

Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.

Response:
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
Excerpts:

THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites. the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.

The Maharashtra police investigating the explosions, ridiculed as damn
squibs by Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackarey, have established that the ?Hindu
Bomb? was assembled in one of the rooms in the Sanatan Sanstha?s ashram in
Panvel. The Indian Express, in a report published on Monday, June 23, 2008,
has sounded an alarm over the mobilization of hard-line Hindu outfits,
notably the Sanatan Sanstha (initially known as Sanatan Bhartiya
Saunskrutik Sanstha), the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti and the newly launched
organisation called ?Dharmashakti Sena? whose inaugural rally in April
showed young men dressed in military uniform.

(Protecting Hinduism - Sanatan Style by Pradnya Gaonkar: Goan Observer 28th
June, 2008)

the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha, which works under its banner, had been
chargesheeted for their role in the Thane theatre blasts of June 2008. The
theatre was targeted as it was screening the period film Jodhaa Akbar,
which shows Emperor Akbar marrying a Hindu girl, which many right wing
organisations had protested against. It was also the organisation that was
later chargesheeted for its role in the 2009 Madgaon blast in Goa.
Modi is seen inviting and thanking the same organisation, which the then
Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare had urged the home department to ban.
It has also been confirmed that Karkare had sent a proposal in August 2008
to ban the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha just months before he was killed in the
26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, as reported earlier by TEHELKA.

http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/social-political-issues/4500-modi-let-outfit-chargesheeted-terror-attacks-hold-meeting-his-constituency.html

The Maharashtra police has recommended that the state government ban
right-wing groups including Sanatan Sanstha and Abhinav Bharat. The names
of both the groups came up during the investigations of the Goa and the
Malegaon blast cases.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-09-08/india/30130015_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhinav-bharat-blast-case

MARGAO: Six members of the Sanatan Sanstha, two of them now dead, are among
the 11 persons accused by the National Investigation Agency (NIA),
which is probing the the October 16, 2009 Margao bomb blast and planting of
explosives at Sancoale, of conspiring to wage war against India by
committing a terrorist act. NIA on Monday filed a 30-page
common chargesheet with 4,000 pages of supporting documents in the two
incidents at the court of principal session judge U V Bakre constituted as
special court.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/sanatan-sanstha/recent/3


NAVI MUMBAI: Right-wing Hindu outfit Sanatan Sanstha has reacted to state's
decision to ban it. Abhay Vartak, Sanstha's chief spokesperson, said the
government has made baseless allegations about the organization's "terror
links'', and added that they will legally fight any such ban.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-12/mumbai/28683538_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhay-vartak-ban

Regards,

Marshall
Bernado Colaco
2012-04-29 12:41:26 UTC
Permalink
?36. BC Save Goa Campaign on GN.
?
BC
?
?
?
1. ? ? ?Babbar Khalsa International
2. ? ? ?Khalistan Commando Force
3. ? ? ?Khalistan Zindabad Force
4. ? ? ?International SikhYouth Federation
5. ? ? ?Lashkar-E-Taiba/Pasban-E-Ahle Hadis
6. ? ? ?Jaish-E-Mohammed/Tahrik-E-Furqan
7. ? ? ?Harkat-Ul-Mujahideen/Harkat-Ul-Ansar/Harkat-Ul-Jehad-E-Islami
8. ? ? ?Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen/Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen Pir Panjal Regiment
9. ? ? ?Al-Umar-Mujahideen
10. ? ? Jammu and Kashmir Islamic Front
11. ? ? United Liberation Front ofAssam (ULFA)
12. ? ? National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB)
13. ? ? People's LiberationArmy (PLA)
14. ? ? United National Liberation Front (UNLF)
15. ? ? People's Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK)
16. ? ? Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP)
17. ? ? KangleiYaol Kanba Lup (KYKL)
18. ? ? Manipur People's Liberation Front (MPLF)
19. ? ? AllTripuraTiger Force
20. ? ? National Liberation Front ofTripura
21. ? ? LiberationTigers ofTamil Eelam (LTTE)
22. ? ? Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI)
23. ? ? DeendarAnjuman
24. ? ? Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) - People's War, All
Its Formations and Front Organisations.
25. ? ? Maoist Communist Centre (MCC),All its Formations and Front Organisations
26. ? ? Al Badr
27. ? ? Jamiat-Ul-Mujahidden
28. ? ? Al-Qaida
29. ? ? Dukhtaran-E-Millat (DEM)
30. ? ? Tamil Nadu LiberationArmy (TNLA)
31. ? ? Tamil National RetrievalTroops (TNRT)
32. ? ? Akhil Bharat Nepali Ekta Samaj (ABNES)
33. ? ? Organisations listed in the Schedule to the U.N. Prevention and?Suppression of Terrorism (Implementaion of Security council?Resolutions) Order, 2007 made under section 2 of the United Nations?(Security Council) Act, 1947 (43 of 1947) and amended from time to?time
34. ? ? Communist Party of India (Maoist) all its formations and front organisations
35. ? ? Indian Mujahideen and all its formations and front organisations
Jesus Mario B. Fernandes
2012-04-29 23:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Mr Marshall for all your convinciing and impeccable arguments to refute this dubious attempt at equating CSF and HGF. Even a cursory look at the contents of both will suffice to say that a world of difference exists between them. To discredit the CSF by putting it on the same level as the HGF is both intellectual dishonesty and a cunning travesty to say the least. It seems it is Mr Helekar who is more paranoid because Marshall had merely asked Dan for some evidence to corroborate his earlier surmise. Wonder how Mr Helekar could be 'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be more appropriate. Is it because 'most people' would simply ignore such pathetic obsolete endeavours........And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels -the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing falsehoods?......The superfluous part of that insinuation is a mischief, if not silly. The CSF may not come under the 'secular' ambit but by no means it is any closer to the HGF in its activities. J-Mario Fernandes
Post by Santosh Helekar
QUOTE
Santosh apparently believes like Goebbels that if he repeats a?falsehood a hundred times, soon people will start believing it as the?truth.
UNQUOTE
.......Marshall Mendonza?
Cheers,
Santosh
----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 12:07 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. >
**************************************
Marshall Mendonza
2012-05-01 00:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar:
He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could
provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that
was factually false.

Response:
Here is evidence No 1:-

in the end the motive of the Church is always to convert (as always)......
Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html
But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and
what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy...... Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html

He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.......
Santosh Helekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html

Pl note in the first two posts above it is very clear that Sandesh is
speaking out against the CHURCH. Yet Santosh deliberately and with mischief
and maliciousness with the intention of maligning and smearing the CSF is
falsely misrepresenting Sandesh's post with the falsehood that he was
referring to the CSF.

I hope Santosh will stop embarassing himself and accept with honesty and
humility that he has been wrong.

Regards,

Marshall
Marshall Mendonza
2012-04-25 15:58:03 UTC
Permalink
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.

** **

I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter and
I have the following observations / comments:****

**1. **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS is both odious and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.

**2. **Regarding the ?miracle?, believers and rationalists are entitled
to their respective opinions or beliefs. However, no one has the unfettered
right without the resultant responsibility to make allegations without
adducing evidence.****

**3. **In a civilised and democratic country every individual has the
right to protest provided it is done in a civilised and democratic manner
and within the confines of law. I do not see the CSF or the other
organisations named in the report deviating from these norms.****

**4. **It is interesting that Santosh calls the filing of criminal
cases by the CSF and others against *Sanal Edamaruku as ?persecution? but
has in the past referred to the numerous attacks on Christians as
?victimhood? . *****

**5. **I am appending extracts of the CSF newsletter which puts the
entire issue in perspective. I am also providing youtube links of the
debate that took place on TV9 Channel.

http://youtu.be/TfJ6_ftih0s

I leave it to you Goanetters to decide whom to take seriously.****

** **

Regards****

** **

Marshall****

** **

*The CSF *****

*The case of the 'Dripping Crucifix' was in the news again recently with
the Mumbai Police calling Sanal Edamaruku, a self-proclaimed "rationalist"
to record his statement on complaints filed against him for hurting
religious sentiments. This he did live on TV twice, videos of which are
available with The CSF, which along with others is being blamed for curbing
his freedom of expression. What is not known is, what exactly Sanal
Edamaruku said, that caused the community to react so strongly.*****

The CSF is all freedom of expression, but not for the right to ridicule,
abuse, mock or poke fun at any faith or the clergy and followers of any
religion. *Sanal Edamaruku says he "faces persecution from the Catholic
church" as per his blog, though apart from issuing a clarification, the
Catholic Church has ignored him.* Rather, it was NGOs and individuals, many
of whom were non-Christians, which took up cudgels, in public interest.****

*The issue relates water observed to be dripping from a Crucifix in Irla of
suburban Mumbai, for no logically explainable reason. This fact was
captured on television, by cameras and witnessed by police and thousands,
who flocked to the spot. The CSF called it an unexplainable phenomenon and
challenged anyone to replicate the extraordinary happening. Or provide some
rationale or explanation for it. Even the media, present in large numbers
could not provide answers and publicly said so.*****

*The capillary action theory proposed by Sanal Edamaruku cannot according
to The CSF be replicated to raise water from the ground, through a concrete
base, on to a wooden cross, across a nail and drip the water from a
Crucifix, standing almost 7 feet above the ground. There is also no source
of water anywhere nearby or connected to the Crucifix on that bright sunny
day.*

On 5th March, 2012, when the extra-ordinary happened, a TV channel telecast
the occurrence. The media mentioned the non-Christian lady, who first
noticed it, residents and witnesses, like the parish priest, Fr. Vincent
Palett, Judith Monteiro, Gordon Jacobs, etc. The TV channel had Sanal
Edamaruku speaking live from Delhi, who based his observations purely on
hearsay, not having seen the dripping Crucifix himself. During the course
of the program, he made several objectionable and religiously offensive
statements, which many, like the Association of Concerned Catholics (AoCC),
Maharashtra Christian Youth Forum (MCYF), etc. besides The CSF took offense
too.

The activists and residents gave Sanal Edamaruku, ample opportunity to
apologize, as he had hurt the religious sentiments of Christians, by his
public statements in the mass media. He not only vehemently refused to
accede to their requests, but on the contrary added insult to injury by
making even more hurting remarks, there and also on a subsequent television
program. *His very obvious and stridently anti-Christian bias compelled me,
as general secretary of The CSF, to file the first FIR on 11th March, 2012
at the MIDC Police Station, as we were convinced of his malicious intention
to insult the faith, the clergy and hierarchy.*

*Please find some points raised in my FIR complaint with the police, based
on Sanal Edamaruku's public comments. It clearly exposes his blatant
anti-Catholic and also anti-religion stance. He is a self-confessed
atheist, who pokes fun and is generous in his derogatory remarks on various
religions, which comes through clearly in the video recordings.* ****

We leave it to you to decide, whether a person making such statements
should be allowed to go scot free, without even an enquiry. How would
believers of other faiths, like Islam or Buddhism have reacted to the
remarks presented below?**

* Sanal Edamaruku's Offensive Statements Recorded, which Hurt Christian
Sentiments*

*1. Christian clergy under the pretext of religion, regularly manufacture
miracles, on the basis of which they collect money.*
* *
*2. The clergy uses monies thus collected to build newer and bigger
churches. This is one such tamasha of many that are existing.*
* *
*3. There is a distinct possibility that the Christians made a hole in the
head of the Jesus statue, with an outlet at the feet for the water.*
* *
*4. We are told that Christians are not idol worshipers, but incidents and
crucifixes like this, expose at least the Catholics as idol worshipers.*
* *
*5. Christians are leaving established churches & to halt the exodus or to
prevent churches from becoming empty, priests resort to such gimmicks.*
* *
*6. If Christ was killed on the Cross, then it is not a thing to be
worshipped. Does anyone worship the gun with which Gandhi was shot? Then
why should Christians worship the Cross?*
* *
*7. Mother Mary is always shown crying. Priests even spread rumours that
her tears of blood can be seen and then collect money, which is misused.*
* *
*8. The Pope is anti-science and believes in exorcising evil spirits or
black magic. You may watch such tricks, but don't give these Christians
money.*
* *
*9. In a human, there is blood and other body fluids like tears, urine,
saliva, etc. Here we don't have blood coming out? So what is this water
that is dripping?*
* *
*10. The clergy is promoting bogus miracles, taking advantage and cheating
the gullible, with the Church having an exploitative structure for these
tricks*
* *
*11. The Church has been the cause of maximum damage in the world, with its
many superstitions, blind beliefs, etc. which the priests promote as it
becomes necessary. *
* *
*12. Even the 'miracle' that decided Mother Teresa's case for sainthood was
a fake one. Almost every Church is full of such cheap tricks performed to
get money in God's name.*

*Bishop Agnelo Gracias: The Official Church Reaction*

Bishop Agnelo Gracias clarifying the Church's stand said that as a general
observation, ?The official Church is slow to attribute supernatural causes
to ?extra-ordinary? phenomena we observe in life. As far as possible, the
Church tries to see if such phenomena can be explained by natural causes.
Further, the Church does not pay too much attention to these extraordinary
phenomena, even though she accepts the possibility that God may intervene
in human life in an extraordinary way ? what we often term a ?miraculous?
way.

On the ?dripping Crucifix?, Bishop Agnelo categorically stated that "one
can doubt if this water dripping has a supernatural cause. The Church has
NOT made any pronouncement on it. There is a lengthy scientific process
that has to be undergone before any official pronouncement is made. It is
quite possible that the dripping water may have a natural explanation.
However, what is surely objectionable are some statements made by the Delhi
interlocutor, Mr. Sanal Edamaruku and I would like to point out a couple of
these erroneous assertions:

* Contrary to the interlocutor?s claim, the Church does not advocate the
worship of images. There is a difference between honouring a thing and
making it divine, something to be worshipped. We respect and honour the
Scriptures of any religion not because the books are in themselves divine,
but because they have a special significance for the adherents of that
religion. We honour a cross because it is for us a reminder of the love of
Jesus who died for us

* A second gratuitous assertion is that the dripping Cross has been created
by priests who are out to make money! This Cross is not on Church property
and the one who is alleged to have noticed the dripping water was not even
a Catholic. No money has been collected by any priest. And surely, priests
do not build churches with such money, as is claimed by the interlocutor.

* A third unwarranted statement is that the Pope or the Church is against
Science. The interlocutor would only have to go to Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia on the internet, to see the list of eminent Catholic
scientists and how the Church has supported scientific research, since the
emergence of the European universities in the Middle Ages. There is a
Pontifical Academy of Sciences, founded in 1603, which seeks to pay honour
to pure science, wherever it is found, to assure its freedom and to promote
its research.

Bishop Agnelo concludes, "I realize that the interlocutor has made these
and other unwarranted statements out of ignorance ? he is unaware of facts.
The least he could do would be to apologize to the Catholic community for
hurting it, even though it might be inadvertently".

*The Editor's Take and Real Issues Side-tracked*

*At no point in time, did any one, other than Sanal Edamaruku, for obvious
reasons, claim it to be a 'miracle', even though not just for the
witnesses, but also the media, police and municipal staff, could not
explain the phenomenon. A plausible explanation, which makes sense is still
elusive. The capillary action theory propounded by Sanal Edamaruku can be
debunked for many reasons.*****

*The wood of the Cross is dry and no evidence of water being absorbed is
seen. There is no direct source of water anywhere nearby to supply the
large quantity of water flowing over days. *It is to the credit of the
Catholics present there and quoted widely in the media, that they said that
it looked like a miracle, but only the Church after proper investigation
could come to that conclusion. Capillary action as described works only
with trees, which are alive and not through cemented blocks, which cover
the Crucifix, as is well known.

*Sanal Edamaruku is no technically qualified person and not being on the
spot for more than a few minutes, days after the occurrence, cannot claim
to have an answer to the happening. Faith is a personal matter and we are
content with it being so, not going into doctrinal or theological issues.
Sanal Edamaruku's comments on the Church expose his hatred and ill-will
against Catholicism and religion in general.*****

*The residents in my presence offered to dig the surroundings of the
?dripping Crucifix? and allow him to check it properly. However, he did not
want to do so. In the 10th March, 2012 debate on the same television
channel, he not only reiterated his earlier objectionable statements, but
even worse challenged the Archbishop to get into the witness box. *Hats off
to Bishop Agnelo for standing his ground, in the face of Sanal Edamaruku?s
provocative and irresponsible statements. The Bishop squarely asked for
proof of the Catholic Church's sanction or blessing of Mussolini?s or
Hitler's actions, which Sanal Edamaruku could not provide.

*The CSF would like to also ask - What stopped Sanal Edamaruku from
pursuing with the Police and authorities, to expose the cheating and tricks
by the Catholic Church, as he claims. On TV, he also speaks of Jesus
driving away with evil spirits, which he does not believe exists. Hence, he
does not believe as Christians do, that there can be evil spirits and
attributes ?possession? to psychiatric problems. He alleges that Indian
Catholics are ushering the Dark Ages in India.* The fact that he ignores
is, if he had said the same things to other faiths, like Islam, would he
have been allowed the same liberty, that the Christians afford him?

*The Constitution of India guarantees the freedom of faith - to preach,
practice and propagate one's religion. And it does not give any citizen the
right to insult the faith of another. Sanal Edamaruku refers to the Holy
Father disrespectfully as Mr. Pope, which is also not acceptable, as per
international protocol. He talks of Christianity having many blind beliefs
and superstitions, which according to him; we need to do away with.*

Finally, we have not been taking him on, simply because we believe in -
Praying for the Persecutors, Forgiving those who hurt us... *But there must
be rule of law. And the law, in the interest of social order and communal
harmony does not allow such persons unlimited freedom to abuse or ridicule.
The CSF will therefore let the law take its course.*****

*I am left with the impression that one needn?t send such persons to jail,
but rather to a mental asylum for treatment. And we rest our case here.*****

*Blessings and Respect,*****

*Your brother in Christ,*****

*Joseph Dias*****

** **

*Some time ago I had pointed out that the so-called "Catholic-Christian
Secular Forum (CSF)" based in Mumbai is not a secular forum at all, but
that it is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization similar to the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti because of its strident campaigns and threats
against literary freedom in fictional works of art such as "Da Vinci Code",
and its relentless engagement in sectarian religious propaganda through
hyperbolic websites such as http://www.persecutedchurch.org/ *

* *

*Now it turns out that this organization and other similar outfits are
persecuting an Indian rationalist named Sanal Edamaruku for exposing a fake
miracle in Mumbai, and for pointing out the obvious fact that such miracles
tend to be the ultimate scams (inclusive of the money raising kind) being
perpetrated on poor devout folk. The CSF and other similar organizations
have filed multiple criminal complaints and issued threats of dire
consequences against the outspoken Edamaruku, and have launched a
nationwide hate campaign against him through mass emails and other means. I
was forwarded one such email from the general secretary of "The CSF". *

* *

*Here is a news report regarding this hounding effort:*

* *

*
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/apr/150412-mumbai-Christian-forums-file-FIRS-after-IRA-chief-calls-miracle-water-a-scam.htm
*

* *

*The report also thankfully indicates that fortunately for the sake of
Indian secularism there may be some level-headed officers in the police
force in India who see through this charade for what it is.*

* *

*Here is an opinion editorial regarding this in Wired Magazine by the noted
American rationalist James Randi:*

* *

*http://www.wired.com/opinion/2012/04/reason-under-fire-in-india/ *

* *

*Cheers,*

* *

*Santosh*

* *

* *

* *
Santosh Helekar
2012-04-25 22:58:09 UTC
Permalink
I would like to correct the falsehoods being spread in the following post regarding what I have said about the so-called Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF). I have stated that the said forum is not a secular forum at all, and have told you why this is the case. I have also affirmed that the said forum ?is a medieval religious chauvinistic organization just like the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti in the following respects:

1. It has issued a threat and launched a hate propaganda campaign against an author who has written a fictional novel that it finds objectionable from its own parochial religious point of view.

2. It has?issued a threat, launched a hate propaganda campaign and?filed criminal charges under an outdated blasphemy law against a private citizen who exposed a fake miracle, and outspokenly expressed his constitutionally protected opinion on TV in a secular democracy.

3. It has persistently carried out inwardly focused religious propaganda campaigns creating the false impression that there is widespread persecution of its religion and religious institution in India under a website named "persecutedchurch.info".

Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is engaged in persecution of a private individual for merely expressing his opinion in public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against him through mass emails to members of its religious community, and by demanding criminal prosecution under?Section 295A of the Indian Penal Code of 1860. The accusatory mass email forwarded in the post below also shows a blatant emotional appeal to visceral religious outrage against one private citizen of India, as well as a?confused promotion of a miraculous explanation by resorting to an absurd denial of the well known physical phenomenon of capillary action, and the existence of a closed sewage water drainage gutter.?

Cheers,

Santosh

----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: seculargoa at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:58 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Santosh?s postings on this subject have now become very predictable and
boring. He will pick on a minor issue, distort it, and then mislead,
misrepresent and obfuscate the whole matter.
** **
I have gone through the newspaper report as well as the CSF newsletter and
I have the following observations / comments:****
**1.? ? **Santosh?s comparison of the CSF with the HJS? is both odious and
dubious. The HJS has been allegedly engaged in terrorist activities and is
under the scrutiny of the National Security Forces. A ban on the
organisation has been recommended by the NIA as well as the Maharashtra
Govt and is awaiting Central government approval. The CSF in comparison is
a reputed organisation and enjoys the respect of leaders of the nation like
the President and Vice President of India, the PM and his cabinet
colleagues besides state governments and other bodies like the Minorities
Commission, Human Rights Commission etc. Santosh apparently believes like
Goebbels that if he repeats a falsehood a hundred times, soon people will
start believing it as the truth.
?
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2012-04-26 14:35:26 UTC
Permalink
My preliminary comments on this 'rancourous' stuff ....(Marshall
Mendonza) MM contra SH (Santosh Helekar)


[1] SH: .....the so-called "Catholic-Christian Secular Forum (CSF)"
based in Mumbai is not a secular forum at all, but that it is a
medieval religious chauvinistic organization SIMILAR to the Hindu
Janajagruti Samiti

jc 1: As far as 'religious chauvinism' is concerned, SH has a point IF
(for instance) the CSF prevented free speech and an individual's right
to see movies like the DaVinci Code.
--

[2] Joseph Dias: Sanal Edamaruku refers to the Holy Father
disrespectfully as Mr. Pope, which is also not acceptable, as per
international protocol.

jc2: Nonsense!. Where can I find this 'international protocol', and
under which law is it BINDING on a non-Catholic?
--

[3] Joseph Dias: Sanal Edamaruku alleges that Indian Catholics are
ushering the Dark Ages in India.

jc3: I suggest that the above allegation would stick only to those
Indian Catholics who (for instance) prevented free speech and an
individual's right to see movies like the DaVinci Code.
--

[4]SH: Regarding the fate of Edamaruku, it is clear that the CSF is
engaged in PERSECUTION of a private individual for merely expressing
his opinion in public, by inciting public outrage and hatred against
him through mass emails to members of its religious community, and by
demanding criminal prosecution under Section 295A of the Indian Penal
Code of 1860.

jc4: I am not so sure IF the term 'persecution' is applied correctly
here....please se #5 & 6
--

[5] 295A. Deliberate and malicious acts INTENDED to outrage religious
feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.

jc5: It would be interesting how the INTENT would be proved.
--

[6] http://tinyurl.com/slander1 / http://tinyurl.com/slander3: Sanal
Edamaruku, president of the Indian Rationalists Association for
calling the incident a MONEY-MAKING racket on a TV channel

jc6: IF Mr. Sanal Edamaruku has evidence of 'MONEY-MAKING' relative to
this incident, he should present it. If he does not, he should
withdraw the canard or face civil prosecution for LIBEL/SLANDER.;
Unless, he presents the 'temporary insanity' defence.
--

[7] http://tinyurl.com/slander3: Sanal Edamaruku, head of the
rationalist association and a heroic fighter against superstitions and
religious bigotry in India, faces persecution from the CATHOLIC
CHURCH.

jc7: From the CATHOLIC CHURCH? How unrational is that?!


In conclusion:

a: The coiners of the term 'Catholic-Christian Secular Forum' would do
well by looking up the meaning of the word 'secular'.

b: Those who claim to be Catholic, would do well to note that this is
21st century. Many more Catholics know their rights than antes. This
nonsense which happened wrt 'Da Vinci code' is an insult to the
intelligence of many educated Catholics. Ironically, it appears that
at least ONE more Catholic saw the 'Da Vinci code' movie, than would
normally have. And that person, to the best of my knowledge, is still
a strong practising Catholic.

c: IF the CSF wishes to achieve an equitable and trustable status in
this world, I'd suggest that they consider the following: (1) replace
the word 'secular' in its title. It is quite oxymoronic as it stands
presently. (2) Concentrate on dealing with Catholic issues first esp
the Child Abuse scandal. IF it does, it will note how progressive the
Church's new position is. (3) While (and I know this for a fact) the
Catholic clergy esp the nuns are repeatedly targeted - esp in the NE
of India, this CSF presently disseminates unreasonable and
sensationalised accounts of incidents.(4) Catholic organisations would
do well to encourage young Catholics to study and work very very hard,
and to achieve the best they can.

d: Individuals like Sanal Edamaruku, who are supposed to be the head
of the rationalist association and alleged heroic fighter, should
consider engaging their heads before running their mouths or banging
on their keyboards. Slandering/Libeling others does not make one very
'heroic'. Only a coward will slander someone without proof. And let's
face it, we are not referring to "ancient" history here ... or to
"facts" which may have been 'shredded or otherwise destroyed". We are
talking about real time.

jc
Marshall Mendonza
2012-04-28 17:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Dan Driscoll:

Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.

Response:
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. I too receive the newsletter and I am concerned that if the CSF
is engaged in similar activities to that of the HJS as described in the
articles / newsreports below, I would like to unsubscribe and distance
myself from it.
Excerpts:

THE CHIEF Minister, Digamber Kamat, and the Leader of the Opposition,
Manohar Parrikar, not to mention the IGP Kishen Kumar should be more
concerned over the terrorist activities of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti than chasing imaginary naxalites. the police in
Maharashtra have indicted five activists of the Sanatan Sanstha and the
Hindu Janajagruti Samiti for allegedly setting off explosives ostensibly to
protest against the distortion of history in the film Jodhaa Akbar and the
staging of a Marathi play, Amhi Pachpute in a Thane theatre because they
considered it offensive to Hindu sentiments.

The Maharashtra police investigating the explosions, ridiculed as damn
squibs by Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackarey, have established that the ?Hindu
Bomb? was assembled in one of the rooms in the Sanatan Sanstha?s ashram in
Panvel. The Indian Express, in a report published on Monday, June 23, 2008,
has sounded an alarm over the mobilization of hard-line Hindu outfits,
notably the Sanatan Sanstha (initially known as Sanatan Bhartiya
Saunskrutik Sanstha), the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti and the newly launched
organisation called ?Dharmashakti Sena? whose inaugural rally in April
showed young men dressed in military uniform.

(Protecting Hinduism - Sanatan Style by Pradnya Gaonkar: Goan Observer 28th
June, 2008)

the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha, which works under its banner, had been
chargesheeted for their role in the Thane theatre blasts of June 2008. The
theatre was targeted as it was screening the period film Jodhaa Akbar,
which shows Emperor Akbar marrying a Hindu girl, which many right wing
organisations had protested against. It was also the organisation that was
later chargesheeted for its role in the 2009 Madgaon blast in Goa.
Modi is seen inviting and thanking the same organisation, which the then
Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare had urged the home department to ban.
It has also been confirmed that Karkare had sent a proposal in August 2008
to ban the HJS and Sanatan Sanstha just months before he was killed in the
26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, as reported earlier by TEHELKA.

http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/social-political-issues/4500-modi-let-outfit-chargesheeted-terror-attacks-hold-meeting-his-constituency.html

The Maharashtra police has recommended that the state government ban
right-wing groups including Sanatan Sanstha and Abhinav Bharat. The names
of both the groups came up during the investigations of the Goa and the
Malegaon blast cases.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-09-08/india/30130015_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhinav-bharat-blast-case

MARGAO: Six members of the Sanatan Sanstha, two of them now dead, are among
the 11 persons accused by the National Investigation Agency (NIA),
which is probing the the October 16, 2009 Margao bomb blast and planting of
explosives at Sancoale, of conspiring to wage war against India by
committing a terrorist act. NIA on Monday filed a 30-page
common chargesheet with 4,000 pages of supporting documents in the two
incidents at the court of principal session judge U V Bakre constituted as
special court.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/sanatan-sanstha/recent/3


NAVI MUMBAI: Right-wing Hindu outfit Sanatan Sanstha has reacted to state's
decision to ban it. Abhay Vartak, Sanstha's chief spokesperson, said the
government has made baseless allegations about the organization's "terror
links'', and added that they will legally fight any such ban.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-12/mumbai/28683538_1_sanatan-sanstha-abhay-vartak-ban

Regards,

Marshall
Bernado Colaco
2012-04-29 12:41:26 UTC
Permalink
?36. BC Save Goa Campaign on GN.
?
BC
?
?
?
1. ? ? ?Babbar Khalsa International
2. ? ? ?Khalistan Commando Force
3. ? ? ?Khalistan Zindabad Force
4. ? ? ?International SikhYouth Federation
5. ? ? ?Lashkar-E-Taiba/Pasban-E-Ahle Hadis
6. ? ? ?Jaish-E-Mohammed/Tahrik-E-Furqan
7. ? ? ?Harkat-Ul-Mujahideen/Harkat-Ul-Ansar/Harkat-Ul-Jehad-E-Islami
8. ? ? ?Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen/Hizb-Ul-Mujahideen Pir Panjal Regiment
9. ? ? ?Al-Umar-Mujahideen
10. ? ? Jammu and Kashmir Islamic Front
11. ? ? United Liberation Front ofAssam (ULFA)
12. ? ? National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB)
13. ? ? People's LiberationArmy (PLA)
14. ? ? United National Liberation Front (UNLF)
15. ? ? People's Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak (PREPAK)
16. ? ? Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP)
17. ? ? KangleiYaol Kanba Lup (KYKL)
18. ? ? Manipur People's Liberation Front (MPLF)
19. ? ? AllTripuraTiger Force
20. ? ? National Liberation Front ofTripura
21. ? ? LiberationTigers ofTamil Eelam (LTTE)
22. ? ? Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI)
23. ? ? DeendarAnjuman
24. ? ? Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) - People's War, All
Its Formations and Front Organisations.
25. ? ? Maoist Communist Centre (MCC),All its Formations and Front Organisations
26. ? ? Al Badr
27. ? ? Jamiat-Ul-Mujahidden
28. ? ? Al-Qaida
29. ? ? Dukhtaran-E-Millat (DEM)
30. ? ? Tamil Nadu LiberationArmy (TNLA)
31. ? ? Tamil National RetrievalTroops (TNRT)
32. ? ? Akhil Bharat Nepali Ekta Samaj (ABNES)
33. ? ? Organisations listed in the Schedule to the U.N. Prevention and?Suppression of Terrorism (Implementaion of Security council?Resolutions) Order, 2007 made under section 2 of the United Nations?(Security Council) Act, 1947 (43 of 1947) and amended from time to?time
34. ? ? Communist Party of India (Maoist) all its formations and front organisations
35. ? ? Indian Mujahideen and all its formations and front organisations
Jesus Mario B. Fernandes
2012-04-29 23:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Mr Marshall for all your convinciing and impeccable arguments to refute this dubious attempt at equating CSF and HGF. Even a cursory look at the contents of both will suffice to say that a world of difference exists between them. To discredit the CSF by putting it on the same level as the HGF is both intellectual dishonesty and a cunning travesty to say the least. It seems it is Mr Helekar who is more paranoid because Marshall had merely asked Dan for some evidence to corroborate his earlier surmise. Wonder how Mr Helekar could be 'almost certain that 'most people' would find his comparison to be more appropriate. Is it because 'most people' would simply ignore such pathetic obsolete endeavours........And did Marshall compare Helekar to Goebbels -the man who collaborated in the murder of 46 million people---or to the propagandist Goebbels, limiting to his acts of unleasing falsehoods?......The superfluous part of that insinuation is a mischief, if not silly. The CSF may not come under the 'secular' ambit but by no means it is any closer to the HGF in its activities. J-Mario Fernandes
Post by Santosh Helekar
QUOTE
Santosh apparently believes like Goebbels that if he repeats a?falsehood a hundred times, soon people will start believing it as the?truth.
UNQUOTE
.......Marshall Mendonza?
Cheers,
Santosh
----- Original Message -----
From: Marshall Mendonza <mmendonza55 at gmail.com>
To: goanet <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 12:07 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Reason under fire in India
Thank you, Mr. Santosh, for this; it confirms what I had surmised over past
year or so, from reading those interminable CSF rants, some of them
appearing unsolicited, sent directly to my in-box.
Dear Dan
I found your confirming Santosh's comparison of the CSF with the HJS quite
interesting. I am appending herebelow some extracts of newspaper articles
and reports on the HJS.Perhaps you have more information about the
allegedly violent activities of the CSF, which I am unaware of, that makes
you agree with Santosh. I would be obliged to you if you could direct me
to articles/ newspaper reports about such allegedly violent activities
of the CSF. >
**************************************
Marshall Mendonza
2012-05-01 00:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar:
He falsely stated that I was propagating falsehoods like Goebbels. He could
provide not a single piece of evidence that I had made any assertion that
was factually false.

Response:
Here is evidence No 1:-

in the end the motive of the Church is always to convert (as always)......
Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html
But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and
what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy...... Sandesh Anvekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html

He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity.......
Santosh Helekar
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html

Pl note in the first two posts above it is very clear that Sandesh is
speaking out against the CHURCH. Yet Santosh deliberately and with mischief
and maliciousness with the intention of maligning and smearing the CSF is
falsely misrepresenting Sandesh's post with the falsehood that he was
referring to the CSF.

I hope Santosh will stop embarassing himself and accept with honesty and
humility that he has been wrong.

Regards,

Marshall
Marshall Mendonza
2012-05-06 11:54:17 UTC
Permalink
I had provided evidence of the falsehoods propagated by Santosh in my last
post. As it was a simple open and shut case, I had expected Santosh to
accept he was wrong with honesty and humility and move on. However,
apparently, I am mistaken. He prefers to live in denial and bluff and bluster
his way out. Perhaps he believes that he possesses some extraordinary and
supernatural powers whereby the word ?Church? used by Sandesh changes into
?CSF? because Santosh would like to believe it so.****

** **

I am reproducing the posts in sequence.****

** **

Evidence of Falsehood No 1:****

** **

a)Here is what Sandesh Anvekar wrote in response to Con Menezes? post on
Feb 13, 2012- ****

** **

in the end the motive of the CHURCH ( caps mine)is always to convert
(as always)... Sandesh Anvekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html****

** **

b)this is what Santosh Helekar responded with on Feb 13, 2012****

** **

He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity???..
Santosh Helekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html****

** **

c) once again in response to Jose Colaco, Sandesh repeats very
emphatically without mincing words or any ambiguity on Feb 14,
2012-****

** **

As for me.. I have never said that Christian people make me feel****

insecure... nor is the question of disbelief in Christian religion****

** **

But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and****

what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy ???. Sandesh Anvekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html****

** **

Now, may I ask you goanetters, does Sandesh refer to the CSF even
once? Can anyone show me any reference to the CSF in his posts. ****

** **

Yet Santosh Helekar maliciously and mischievously and with ulterior
motives falsely maligns and smears the CSF and makes it out as if
Sandesh is referring to the CSF.****

** **

I leave it to you goanetters to derive your own conclusions.****

** **

Regards,****

** **

Marshall****

** **

* *

*I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would
therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No. 1",
unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes
out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would
most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His
folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own
misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very
well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well. ? Santosh Helekar*

* *

* *
Marshall Mendonza
2012-05-06 11:54:17 UTC
Permalink
I had provided evidence of the falsehoods propagated by Santosh in my last
post. As it was a simple open and shut case, I had expected Santosh to
accept he was wrong with honesty and humility and move on. However,
apparently, I am mistaken. He prefers to live in denial and bluff and bluster
his way out. Perhaps he believes that he possesses some extraordinary and
supernatural powers whereby the word ?Church? used by Sandesh changes into
?CSF? because Santosh would like to believe it so.****

** **

I am reproducing the posts in sequence.****

** **

Evidence of Falsehood No 1:****

** **

a)Here is what Sandesh Anvekar wrote in response to Con Menezes? post on
Feb 13, 2012- ****

** **

in the end the motive of the CHURCH ( caps mine)is always to convert
(as always)... Sandesh Anvekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html****

** **

b)this is what Santosh Helekar responded with on Feb 13, 2012****

** **

He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity???..
Santosh Helekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html****

** **

c) once again in response to Jose Colaco, Sandesh repeats very
emphatically without mincing words or any ambiguity on Feb 14,
2012-****

** **

As for me.. I have never said that Christian people make me feel****

insecure... nor is the question of disbelief in Christian religion****

** **

But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and****

what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy ???. Sandesh Anvekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html****

** **

Now, may I ask you goanetters, does Sandesh refer to the CSF even
once? Can anyone show me any reference to the CSF in his posts. ****

** **

Yet Santosh Helekar maliciously and mischievously and with ulterior
motives falsely maligns and smears the CSF and makes it out as if
Sandesh is referring to the CSF.****

** **

I leave it to you goanetters to derive your own conclusions.****

** **

Regards,****

** **

Marshall****

** **

* *

*I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would
therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No. 1",
unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes
out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would
most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His
folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own
misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very
well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well. ? Santosh Helekar*

* *

* *
Marshall Mendonza
2012-05-06 11:54:17 UTC
Permalink
I had provided evidence of the falsehoods propagated by Santosh in my last
post. As it was a simple open and shut case, I had expected Santosh to
accept he was wrong with honesty and humility and move on. However,
apparently, I am mistaken. He prefers to live in denial and bluff and bluster
his way out. Perhaps he believes that he possesses some extraordinary and
supernatural powers whereby the word ?Church? used by Sandesh changes into
?CSF? because Santosh would like to believe it so.****

** **

I am reproducing the posts in sequence.****

** **

Evidence of Falsehood No 1:****

** **

a)Here is what Sandesh Anvekar wrote in response to Con Menezes? post on
Feb 13, 2012- ****

** **

in the end the motive of the CHURCH ( caps mine)is always to convert
(as always)... Sandesh Anvekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html****

** **

b)this is what Santosh Helekar responded with on Feb 13, 2012****

** **

He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity???..
Santosh Helekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html****

** **

c) once again in response to Jose Colaco, Sandesh repeats very
emphatically without mincing words or any ambiguity on Feb 14,
2012-****

** **

As for me.. I have never said that Christian people make me feel****

insecure... nor is the question of disbelief in Christian religion****

** **

But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and****

what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy ???. Sandesh Anvekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html****

** **

Now, may I ask you goanetters, does Sandesh refer to the CSF even
once? Can anyone show me any reference to the CSF in his posts. ****

** **

Yet Santosh Helekar maliciously and mischievously and with ulterior
motives falsely maligns and smears the CSF and makes it out as if
Sandesh is referring to the CSF.****

** **

I leave it to you goanetters to derive your own conclusions.****

** **

Regards,****

** **

Marshall****

** **

* *

*I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would
therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No. 1",
unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes
out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would
most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His
folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own
misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very
well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well. ? Santosh Helekar*

* *

* *
Marshall Mendonza
2012-05-06 11:54:17 UTC
Permalink
I had provided evidence of the falsehoods propagated by Santosh in my last
post. As it was a simple open and shut case, I had expected Santosh to
accept he was wrong with honesty and humility and move on. However,
apparently, I am mistaken. He prefers to live in denial and bluff and bluster
his way out. Perhaps he believes that he possesses some extraordinary and
supernatural powers whereby the word ?Church? used by Sandesh changes into
?CSF? because Santosh would like to believe it so.****

** **

I am reproducing the posts in sequence.****

** **

Evidence of Falsehood No 1:****

** **

a)Here is what Sandesh Anvekar wrote in response to Con Menezes? post on
Feb 13, 2012- ****

** **

in the end the motive of the CHURCH ( caps mine)is always to convert
(as always)... Sandesh Anvekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html****

** **

b)this is what Santosh Helekar responded with on Feb 13, 2012****

** **

He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity???..
Santosh Helekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html****

** **

c) once again in response to Jose Colaco, Sandesh repeats very
emphatically without mincing words or any ambiguity on Feb 14,
2012-****

** **

As for me.. I have never said that Christian people make me feel****

insecure... nor is the question of disbelief in Christian religion****

** **

But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and****

what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy ???. Sandesh Anvekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html****

** **

Now, may I ask you goanetters, does Sandesh refer to the CSF even
once? Can anyone show me any reference to the CSF in his posts. ****

** **

Yet Santosh Helekar maliciously and mischievously and with ulterior
motives falsely maligns and smears the CSF and makes it out as if
Sandesh is referring to the CSF.****

** **

I leave it to you goanetters to derive your own conclusions.****

** **

Regards,****

** **

Marshall****

** **

* *

*I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would
therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No. 1",
unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes
out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would
most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His
folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own
misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very
well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well. ? Santosh Helekar*

* *

* *
Marshall Mendonza
2012-05-06 11:54:17 UTC
Permalink
I had provided evidence of the falsehoods propagated by Santosh in my last
post. As it was a simple open and shut case, I had expected Santosh to
accept he was wrong with honesty and humility and move on. However,
apparently, I am mistaken. He prefers to live in denial and bluff and bluster
his way out. Perhaps he believes that he possesses some extraordinary and
supernatural powers whereby the word ?Church? used by Sandesh changes into
?CSF? because Santosh would like to believe it so.****

** **

I am reproducing the posts in sequence.****

** **

Evidence of Falsehood No 1:****

** **

a)Here is what Sandesh Anvekar wrote in response to Con Menezes? post on
Feb 13, 2012- ****

** **

in the end the motive of the CHURCH ( caps mine)is always to convert
(as always)... Sandesh Anvekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218523.html****

** **

b)this is what Santosh Helekar responded with on Feb 13, 2012****

** **

He is lashing out against the CSF in response, and may also be overly
paranoid about his fellow Hindus being converted to Christianity???..
Santosh Helekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218533.html****

** **

c) once again in response to Jose Colaco, Sandesh repeats very
emphatically without mincing words or any ambiguity on Feb 14,
2012-****

** **

As for me.. I have never said that Christian people make me feel****

insecure... nor is the question of disbelief in Christian religion****

** **

But CHURCH!!! Yes... I have my own views and doubts over what it is and****

what it can do....that does indeed make me feel creepy ???. Sandesh Anvekar****

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2012-February/218573.html****

** **

Now, may I ask you goanetters, does Sandesh refer to the CSF even
once? Can anyone show me any reference to the CSF in his posts. ****

** **

Yet Santosh Helekar maliciously and mischievously and with ulterior
motives falsely maligns and smears the CSF and makes it out as if
Sandesh is referring to the CSF.****

** **

I leave it to you goanetters to derive your own conclusions.****

** **

Regards,****

** **

Marshall****

** **

* *

*I am glad that most Goanetters understand written English, and would
therefore see the glaring folly in Marshall's fabricated "evidence No. 1",
unless, of course, they base their trust in whatever crap Marshall writes
out of religious or ideological loyalty. Marshall's English teacher would
most likely laugh at what he has written below. I know mine would. His
folly is the classic case of deluding oneself that one's own
misinterpretation of someone else's opinion counts as fact. This could very
well be a deliberate misrepresentation as well. ? Santosh Helekar*

* *

* *
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...