Discussion:
Re. Indian Colonoliasm
(too old to reply)
Arwin Mesquita
2009-10-02 19:17:59 UTC
Permalink
ARWIN; MARIO PLS SEE MY REPLY IN CAPITALS

Mario responds:
I am not ignoring anything. Treaties are not passed by citizens.

Arwin Responds: Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a
democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the
final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not
being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my
opinion

Mario:Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.
Arwin responds: You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the
Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are
being reduced to a minority

What you and JC are ignoring is that representative democracies are not run
by referendum. Even if one had been held, I believe the majority of Goans
would have opted for kicking out the Portuguese occupiers, though many Goan
Catholics may have continued to opt for Portuguese bootlicking.
Arwin responds: How you are so sure of your irrelavabt belief, do you have
any supporting info facts?


Be thankful Goa was kept as one political entity, or Bardez may now be a
part of Maharashtra and Salcette a part of Karnataka.
Arwin responds: Thankful for what?? The Way Goa is going away from Goans
today.. In a Few Years Goa will anyway look like a part of Maharashtra or a
part of Karnataka.

Case closed. Time to move on.
Arwin : Sorry Mario, Only Majority Goans can decide if this case is closed
or not; and not individually you or me for that matter
Arwin : Time to move to to what are you indicating here? Give up on Goa,
Migrate to USA/EUROPE etc.. do nothing for Goa,.. Let Goa Rot and Let Goa no
longer belong to Goans? Are you giving such views to safeguard you immigrant
status in te USA or do you actually care for the Future of Goa & Goans ??


--
Please post your comments on my Blog: http://goanidentity.blogspot.com/

Please also see below:
1. Benaulim Village Action Committee: http://www.bvacbenaulim.blogspot.com/

2. "Rape of Goa" : http://www.parrikar.com/blog/the-rape-of-goa/

3. MAND - an adivasi-rights resource centre : http://mandgoa.blogspot.com/

4. EVERY GOAN SHOULD SEE THIS VIDEO:
http://infochangeindia.org/Infochange-documentary.html

5. For the Love of Konkani: http://www.radiogoa.net/

6. Goa's Identity Movement website: http://www.goamag.net/gim
Alfred de Tavares
2009-10-02 20:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Treaties not 'passed' by citizens, Mario?

Let us not delve into past for precedents...

Suffice to watch the pangs feced by the Lisbon treaty in Ireland...

Ipso factus est...
Alfred
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:17:59 +0400
From: arwinmesquita at gmail.com
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Re. Indian Colonoliasm
ARWIN; MARIO PLS SEE MY REPLY IN CAPITALS
I am not ignoring anything. Treaties are not passed by citizens.
Arwin Responds: Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a
democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the
final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not
being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my
opinion
Mario:Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.
Arwin responds: You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the
Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are
being reduced to a minority
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_1:092010
Mario Goveia
2009-10-05 00:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arwin Mesquita
Treaties are not passed by citizens.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:17:59 +0400
From: Arwin Mesquita <arwinmesquita at gmail.com>

Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my opinion.

Mario responds:

Arwin,

Goans HAVE BEEN the final authority regarding whom they elect to run Goa for several years now.

I'm not sure what more you want, other than, perhaps, to be made Maharajah of Goa:-)) I think I would vote for Floriano to be the Maharajah:-))

It seems you know about as much about a "representative democracy" form of government as you know about your mythical Goan identity. In a "representative democracy" which is what India is, the authority of the citizens is exercised when they elect their representatives. In between formal elections they are not required to be formally consulted.

Mario previously wrote:

Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.

Arwin responded:

You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are being reduced to a minority.

Mario responds:

I visit Goa once a year and own a home there. I'm not even going to mention in this discussion that you don't even live in Goa:-))

As a Catholic growing up in India, I have always been a minority. I have no problem being a minority. Even in Goa Catholics were a minority even when some of them were Portuguese bootlickers.

If all Goans are being reduced to a minority because other Indians are relocating there there is nothing you can do about it since India has long been a part of India.

Mario previously wrote:

What you and JC are ignoring is that representative democracies are not run
by referendum. Even if one had been held, I believe the majority of Goans
would have opted for kicking out the Portuguese occupiers, though many Goan
Catholics may have continued to opt for Portuguese bootlicking.

Arwin responded:

How you are so sure of your irrelavabt belief, do you have any supporting info facts?

Mario responds:

I have exactly as many facts as you do:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Be thankful Goa was kept as one political entity, or Bardez may now be a
part of Maharashtra and Salcette a part of Karnataka.

Arwin responded:

Thankful for what?? The Way Goa is going away from Goans today.. In a Few Years Goa will anyway look like a part of Maharashtra or a part of Karnataka.

Mario responds:

Goa is not going anywhere. If Goa becomes more like Maharashtra or Karnataka, so be it. You may be right but there is nothing you can do about it because I don't see anyone making you Maharajah of Goa:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Case closed. Time to move on.

Arwin responded:

Sorry Mario, Only Majority Goans can decide if this case is closed
or not; and not individually you or me for that matter

Mario responds:

Sorry, Arwin. After liberating Goa from the Europeans who had forcibly invaded it and occupied it for 450 years, India graciously gave Goa back to the Goans to run as a state without dividing it. That case is closed.

Whatever problems you perceive, whether real or imagined, have to be addressed by electing honest politicians and then seeing if you can convince them to run Goa the way you want, withing the constitution of Goa and of India.

Arwin wrote:

Time to move to to what are you indicating here? Give up on Goa,
Migrate to USA/EUROPE etc.. do nothing for Goa,.. Let Goa Rot and Let Goa no longer belong to Goans? Are you giving such views to safeguard you immigrant status in te USA or do you actually care for the Future of Goa & Goans ??

Mario responds:

Each Goan will decide for themselves what they want to do for themselves and their families, just as they have always done and just as you have done by choosing to work in the Gulf.

What I care about - in Goa and the rest of India - is the bribery and corruption, electing and re-electing dishonest politicians, the abysmal lack of civic sense and consideration for fellow citizens that no one in a leadership position seems to be addressing.
Mario Goveia
2009-10-05 02:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 22:20:18 +0200
From: Alfred de Tavares <alfredtavares at hotmail.com>

Treaties not 'passed' by citizens, Mario?

Mario responds:

That's right, Uncle Alfred. In a "representative democracy", treaties are generally not subject to referendums.

Has it occurred to you Portuguese sympathisers that the Portuguese did not hold a referendum in the early 1500s to see what Goans thought before invading and occupying Goa for 450 years?

In Portuguese occupied Goa, there was certainly no reason to ask the "permission" of the "occupied" before ejecting the "occupiers", who, by the way, had been politely asked to follow the example of the much more powerful Brits and the French for over a dozen years, but insisted on promulgating the farce of an "overseas province".

Besides, what did you want to ask the Goans at the time, i.e between 1961 and 1974, when it was a Union Territory and before the Portuguese finally saw the error of their ways and formally signed the treaty of 1974 which so many Goans were unaware of until informed by the lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace:-)) But seriously, what did you want to know?

Besides, without any referendum, India later graciously gave Goa back to the Goans as a full fledged state. Most of the mess in Goa has taken place since then, has it not?
According to the landmark judgments delivered by the Supreme Court of
India - Delhi, Goa was "CONQUERED" by India and was not liberated on
19/12/61 from the Portuguese" also according to the U.N. resolution 1514
(XV) Goa is stated as "INVADED". We've now undergone 47 yrs of corrupt
"Bharoti" colonial rule over our Goa.
On the other hand one could take the instance that Bangladesh was
liberated by "Bharot" and given to their people who now have the honour
of being the proud citizens of Bangladesh, whereas Goa wasn't, instead
it was conquered and forcefully annexed to the Indian Union, just as how
Saddam had invaded Kuwait on 2/8/90. In other words, Goa was "ROBBED"
from Goans by Nehru's "Bharot".
Mario responds:

Aye, aye, aye! Are these two individuals serious - or seriously delusional?

Someone needs to enlighten these Portuguese apologists that it was their beloved Portuguese who had forcibly INVADED and CONQUERED and OCCUPIED Goa and ROBBED it of its natural resources for 450 years, and in 1974 finally gave up their long held farce that it was an "overseas province" and formally accepted India's sovereignty over Goa.

Many Goan Catholics, some of whom still fantasize about being "brown Europeans" - the community that benefited the most before 1961 - seem surprised to learn of the treaty of 1974. We see them these days writing bogus revisionist columns in O'Heraldo or on Goanet insisting that a referendum should have been held before Goa was liberated from its prior forced occupation by the European invaders.

Some of these folks do not seem aware that India graciously gave Goa back to the Goans as a full fledged state in 1987, and most of the corruption and ugly and inappropriate development has taken place since then.

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 10:45:28 +0530
From: "floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com>

Otherwise, they would have told Barot that after freeing Goa of the Portuguese, Goa's management and affairs should be handed over to the Goans - in an exclusive autonomy.

Mario responds:

What am I missing here? Didn't this happen in 1987?

Floriano wrote:

Goa Su-Raj Party has gone on record to say that when it comes to power, it will either want to dissolve the Goa Freedom Fighter's Association for good or it has to cull the fakes from its list if they want their self-respect restored back again.

Mario asks:

Are any of these Indian patriots left? My relative who drove the Portuguese nuts by broadcasting anti-Portuguese messaages into Goa on All India Radio died years ago.

Floriano wrote:

Ideally, the Portuguese should have given autonomy to Goa and left.

Mario observes:

Floriano, the Portuguese were greedy colonialists who refused to acknowledge that the era of colonialism was over, even though the more powerful Brits and French had already accepted this as a fact.

They had FOURTEEN years to do this and were politely requested to do so over and over again, but encouraged mostly by the "brown European" Goan Catholics and some Goan Hindus who benefited from their presence and patronage, continued their farce of an "overseas province".

All India did was to bring Goa's medieval infrastructure into the 20th Century between 1961 and 1987 as a Union Territory. Goans seem to take this for granted today. I clearly remember how backward and outdated Goa's infrastructure was before 1961.

After Goa was turned over to the the Goans in 1987 the Goans began to elect and re-elect corrupt politicians, so would anything have been different if the Portuguese had voluntarily handed Goa back to the Goans sometime before 1961?
pcheryl
2009-10-05 20:28:25 UTC
Permalink
This is an open letter to all so called patriotic Goan's who sadly claim to be under
oppressive Indian rule and most often take great pleasure in all things foreign
while grossly filing to respect the land of their birth ( Goa)

1) First of all my dear friends ask not what the land of your ancestors has done
for you but ask what you are doing for the land of your ancestors.

As a registered voter in your own land you only are responsible for the people
you vote to power and the way they govern you. The fact that you are not satisfied
with your own people who govern you and make the laws of your land( Politicians),
shows that there is something grossly wrong with you your self ,as the government
consists of your representatives. Why then do you continue to get the same old
corrupt officials to power every election. You live in a land where your leaders are
chosen off the people , by the people and for the people . You live in a democracy ,
governed by your own fellow Goans , your so called Portuguese masters did not give
you this right and freedom , So dear friends wake up to changing times & the need
of the hour . Stop living in the past , least you lose touch with the present and
your future becomes obsolete .

Blame no one but your self for the misery you feel you are in . If many Goans are
moving out , it is because of lack of employment opportunities , remember the world
is no longer an agrarian economy it was in the nineteenth century. You continue to
bring the corrupt to power , you fail to oppose them , then don't lament and blame
others for what you are responsible for.


2) Goa has always been an Integral part of the Indian sub continent , be it by
blood and culture . Why else would Goans , (Christians inclusive) continue to live
& die by the Indian culture & caste system. Europeans do not have a caste system.
It is a fact that Portuguese came to India in search of fortunes of the East , they
did not come here for the sake of Goans ,or because Goa was a part of Europe. They
were here for their own selfish motive , Even Portugal & the rest of Europe has its
own set of problems today. If you feel that migrating to another part of the world
( Portuguese rule ) is a solution to your problems , Then I can only say that you
are behaving like the foolish Goat in Aseop's fable who felt that the grass on the
other side is greener, You are a sham ! Who is denying his responsibilities towards
his mother land Goa . This I feel is akin to a child who stays away from his aged
parents and keeps sending money every month with the word ' Parents I love you' .
Its easier to send money to the old and infirm rather than to stay with them and put
up with their infirmities. Making remittance back to your mother land is no solution
. You have to continue be a part of the so called corrupt system in Goa and yet
make a change by being honest in what ever little way you can be , never failing to
stand up for your rights and that of your neighbors. This is what it is to be a
Christian something you may call Portuguese inheritance. The same thing is said by
Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita . I an ardent Catholic Goan find it difficult to
return back to Goa and look after my ancestral property cause God knows which cousin
will resurrect from his grave and come for his shares I f you cannot be honest with
your own brethren and live happily then why blame the government only. if there is
to be peace and prosperity it should begin with me.


3) Even before Goa's liberation Goans have fought to defend the frontiers of India
and have left their mark in India Public Life. We have seen Goan's serve in the
Civil service & defense forces and reach the ranks of Commanding officers and Chief
of Staff ,all leaving behind their mark and shaping the destiny of India. Yet Indian
from other states have never opposed a Goan at the top , but have happily served
under Goans. Some Goans have achieved this not by paying reverence to any forces
foreign or Indian , but by their merit , determination and service to their mother
land.

Hence I could only say this to a few of my disgruntled fellow Goans stop behaving
like the last remnants of the Portuguese empire in India and start working for a
Better Goa ! A Goa of your dreams.

( My family lost a lot when the Portuguese were driven out of India . We lost our
business. My grand dad owned hotel Republica during Portuguese rule , My great
grand father had a number of shops & was a well respected social worker of his
time . We were once a part of the ruling Elite and sponsored most events in Goa.,
during Portuguese rule.. A major part of my family left for Portugal along with the
Portuguese. There certainly are glorious facts of the past handed down to me by my
ancestors but will certainly sound like fiction to my descendents. Hence today I am
only an Indian & have no hard feeling towards any one . Your destiny is in your
hands , there is no substitute to hard work and your duty . One should have the
courage of conviction , come out like Indians from other states and work hard for
ones self betterment and that of his nation )

Cheryl Pereira
Gilbert Lawrence
2009-10-06 02:13:15 UTC
Permalink
This is one well written response that?Goanet moderators should save and post it every time this topic comes up.

Regards, GL


------------- Cheryl Pereira?

?
This is an open letter to all so called patriotic Goan's who sadly claim to be under
oppressive Indian? rule and most often take great pleasure in all things foreign
while grossly failing to respect the land of their birth ( Goa)
Mario Goveia
2009-10-06 14:21:15 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:28:25 -0400
From: "pcheryl" <cheryl.pereira at stockholding.com>

Blame no one but your self for the misery you feel you are? in . If many Goans are moving out , it is because of lack of employment opportunities , remember? the world is no longer an agrarian economy it was in the nineteenth century. You continue to bring the corrupt to power ,? you fail to oppose them , then don't lament and blame others for what you are responsible for.

My family lost a lot when? the Portuguese were driven out of India .

Hence today I am only an Indian & have no hard feeling? towards any? one . Your destiny is in your hands , there is no substitute to hard work and your duty .

Mario observes:

Cheryl,

You are a true Indian patriot.

Though, like many Goan Catholics and a few select Hindu business families, your family benefited from the presence of the Portuguese occupiers, you have accepted with considerable maturity, dignity and grace that that was a different time and place that had to change with the changing world and the spread of freedom and democracy among previously European colonies.

Of course Goa has always been Indian by history and culture.? Anyone who denies this would be as delusional as the Portuguese sophistry that they could have an "overseas province" in a foreign land.? And the fact that Goans have been accepted across India and have distinguished themselves in all walks of life is simply undeniable.

I commend you on your astute observation about Catholic Goans clinging to the un-Christ-like pretense that they belonged to the castes of their Hindu ancestors when it suited them, while at the same time, identifying with the casteless Portuguese occupiers when it suited them.

If the Portuguese had had the foresight and the good will and the basic "akkal" to see that the world had changed, they could have turned Goa over to Goans, Goa could have been an independant and autonomous multi-cultural mini-country like Nepal.? Would it have been any different than the chaotic Goa of today?? I think it would have, but who really knows.? Certainly it would have enabled Goa to control its population better than they can as part of India, which seems to be a major concern on a few Goanetters. Unfortunately, many native Goans either cannot or choose not to compete with the non-Goans who have discovered the beauties and benefits of this tropical paradise, and are getting overshadowed in economic matters on their own home ground.

Instead, the Portuguese were trying to be greedy and too clever by half.? They misread the mood of the world, and the rest, as they say, is history.
Arwin Mesquita
2009-10-02 19:17:59 UTC
Permalink
ARWIN; MARIO PLS SEE MY REPLY IN CAPITALS

Mario responds:
I am not ignoring anything. Treaties are not passed by citizens.

Arwin Responds: Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a
democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the
final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not
being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my
opinion

Mario:Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.
Arwin responds: You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the
Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are
being reduced to a minority

What you and JC are ignoring is that representative democracies are not run
by referendum. Even if one had been held, I believe the majority of Goans
would have opted for kicking out the Portuguese occupiers, though many Goan
Catholics may have continued to opt for Portuguese bootlicking.
Arwin responds: How you are so sure of your irrelavabt belief, do you have
any supporting info facts?


Be thankful Goa was kept as one political entity, or Bardez may now be a
part of Maharashtra and Salcette a part of Karnataka.
Arwin responds: Thankful for what?? The Way Goa is going away from Goans
today.. In a Few Years Goa will anyway look like a part of Maharashtra or a
part of Karnataka.

Case closed. Time to move on.
Arwin : Sorry Mario, Only Majority Goans can decide if this case is closed
or not; and not individually you or me for that matter
Arwin : Time to move to to what are you indicating here? Give up on Goa,
Migrate to USA/EUROPE etc.. do nothing for Goa,.. Let Goa Rot and Let Goa no
longer belong to Goans? Are you giving such views to safeguard you immigrant
status in te USA or do you actually care for the Future of Goa & Goans ??


--
Please post your comments on my Blog: http://goanidentity.blogspot.com/

Please also see below:
1. Benaulim Village Action Committee: http://www.bvacbenaulim.blogspot.com/

2. "Rape of Goa" : http://www.parrikar.com/blog/the-rape-of-goa/

3. MAND - an adivasi-rights resource centre : http://mandgoa.blogspot.com/

4. EVERY GOAN SHOULD SEE THIS VIDEO:
http://infochangeindia.org/Infochange-documentary.html

5. For the Love of Konkani: http://www.radiogoa.net/

6. Goa's Identity Movement website: http://www.goamag.net/gim
Alfred de Tavares
2009-10-02 20:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Treaties not 'passed' by citizens, Mario?

Let us not delve into past for precedents...

Suffice to watch the pangs feced by the Lisbon treaty in Ireland...

Ipso factus est...
Alfred
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:17:59 +0400
From: arwinmesquita at gmail.com
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Re. Indian Colonoliasm
ARWIN; MARIO PLS SEE MY REPLY IN CAPITALS
I am not ignoring anything. Treaties are not passed by citizens.
Arwin Responds: Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a
democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the
final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not
being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my
opinion
Mario:Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.
Arwin responds: You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the
Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are
being reduced to a minority
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_1:092010
Mario Goveia
2009-10-05 00:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arwin Mesquita
Treaties are not passed by citizens.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:17:59 +0400
From: Arwin Mesquita <arwinmesquita at gmail.com>

Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my opinion.

Mario responds:

Arwin,

Goans HAVE BEEN the final authority regarding whom they elect to run Goa for several years now.

I'm not sure what more you want, other than, perhaps, to be made Maharajah of Goa:-)) I think I would vote for Floriano to be the Maharajah:-))

It seems you know about as much about a "representative democracy" form of government as you know about your mythical Goan identity. In a "representative democracy" which is what India is, the authority of the citizens is exercised when they elect their representatives. In between formal elections they are not required to be formally consulted.

Mario previously wrote:

Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.

Arwin responded:

You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are being reduced to a minority.

Mario responds:

I visit Goa once a year and own a home there. I'm not even going to mention in this discussion that you don't even live in Goa:-))

As a Catholic growing up in India, I have always been a minority. I have no problem being a minority. Even in Goa Catholics were a minority even when some of them were Portuguese bootlickers.

If all Goans are being reduced to a minority because other Indians are relocating there there is nothing you can do about it since India has long been a part of India.

Mario previously wrote:

What you and JC are ignoring is that representative democracies are not run
by referendum. Even if one had been held, I believe the majority of Goans
would have opted for kicking out the Portuguese occupiers, though many Goan
Catholics may have continued to opt for Portuguese bootlicking.

Arwin responded:

How you are so sure of your irrelavabt belief, do you have any supporting info facts?

Mario responds:

I have exactly as many facts as you do:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Be thankful Goa was kept as one political entity, or Bardez may now be a
part of Maharashtra and Salcette a part of Karnataka.

Arwin responded:

Thankful for what?? The Way Goa is going away from Goans today.. In a Few Years Goa will anyway look like a part of Maharashtra or a part of Karnataka.

Mario responds:

Goa is not going anywhere. If Goa becomes more like Maharashtra or Karnataka, so be it. You may be right but there is nothing you can do about it because I don't see anyone making you Maharajah of Goa:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Case closed. Time to move on.

Arwin responded:

Sorry Mario, Only Majority Goans can decide if this case is closed
or not; and not individually you or me for that matter

Mario responds:

Sorry, Arwin. After liberating Goa from the Europeans who had forcibly invaded it and occupied it for 450 years, India graciously gave Goa back to the Goans to run as a state without dividing it. That case is closed.

Whatever problems you perceive, whether real or imagined, have to be addressed by electing honest politicians and then seeing if you can convince them to run Goa the way you want, withing the constitution of Goa and of India.

Arwin wrote:

Time to move to to what are you indicating here? Give up on Goa,
Migrate to USA/EUROPE etc.. do nothing for Goa,.. Let Goa Rot and Let Goa no longer belong to Goans? Are you giving such views to safeguard you immigrant status in te USA or do you actually care for the Future of Goa & Goans ??

Mario responds:

Each Goan will decide for themselves what they want to do for themselves and their families, just as they have always done and just as you have done by choosing to work in the Gulf.

What I care about - in Goa and the rest of India - is the bribery and corruption, electing and re-electing dishonest politicians, the abysmal lack of civic sense and consideration for fellow citizens that no one in a leadership position seems to be addressing.
Mario Goveia
2009-10-05 02:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 22:20:18 +0200
From: Alfred de Tavares <alfredtavares at hotmail.com>

Treaties not 'passed' by citizens, Mario?

Mario responds:

That's right, Uncle Alfred. In a "representative democracy", treaties are generally not subject to referendums.

Has it occurred to you Portuguese sympathisers that the Portuguese did not hold a referendum in the early 1500s to see what Goans thought before invading and occupying Goa for 450 years?

In Portuguese occupied Goa, there was certainly no reason to ask the "permission" of the "occupied" before ejecting the "occupiers", who, by the way, had been politely asked to follow the example of the much more powerful Brits and the French for over a dozen years, but insisted on promulgating the farce of an "overseas province".

Besides, what did you want to ask the Goans at the time, i.e between 1961 and 1974, when it was a Union Territory and before the Portuguese finally saw the error of their ways and formally signed the treaty of 1974 which so many Goans were unaware of until informed by the lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace:-)) But seriously, what did you want to know?

Besides, without any referendum, India later graciously gave Goa back to the Goans as a full fledged state. Most of the mess in Goa has taken place since then, has it not?
According to the landmark judgments delivered by the Supreme Court of
India - Delhi, Goa was "CONQUERED" by India and was not liberated on
19/12/61 from the Portuguese" also according to the U.N. resolution 1514
(XV) Goa is stated as "INVADED". We've now undergone 47 yrs of corrupt
"Bharoti" colonial rule over our Goa.
On the other hand one could take the instance that Bangladesh was
liberated by "Bharot" and given to their people who now have the honour
of being the proud citizens of Bangladesh, whereas Goa wasn't, instead
it was conquered and forcefully annexed to the Indian Union, just as how
Saddam had invaded Kuwait on 2/8/90. In other words, Goa was "ROBBED"
from Goans by Nehru's "Bharot".
Mario responds:

Aye, aye, aye! Are these two individuals serious - or seriously delusional?

Someone needs to enlighten these Portuguese apologists that it was their beloved Portuguese who had forcibly INVADED and CONQUERED and OCCUPIED Goa and ROBBED it of its natural resources for 450 years, and in 1974 finally gave up their long held farce that it was an "overseas province" and formally accepted India's sovereignty over Goa.

Many Goan Catholics, some of whom still fantasize about being "brown Europeans" - the community that benefited the most before 1961 - seem surprised to learn of the treaty of 1974. We see them these days writing bogus revisionist columns in O'Heraldo or on Goanet insisting that a referendum should have been held before Goa was liberated from its prior forced occupation by the European invaders.

Some of these folks do not seem aware that India graciously gave Goa back to the Goans as a full fledged state in 1987, and most of the corruption and ugly and inappropriate development has taken place since then.

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 10:45:28 +0530
From: "floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com>

Otherwise, they would have told Barot that after freeing Goa of the Portuguese, Goa's management and affairs should be handed over to the Goans - in an exclusive autonomy.

Mario responds:

What am I missing here? Didn't this happen in 1987?

Floriano wrote:

Goa Su-Raj Party has gone on record to say that when it comes to power, it will either want to dissolve the Goa Freedom Fighter's Association for good or it has to cull the fakes from its list if they want their self-respect restored back again.

Mario asks:

Are any of these Indian patriots left? My relative who drove the Portuguese nuts by broadcasting anti-Portuguese messaages into Goa on All India Radio died years ago.

Floriano wrote:

Ideally, the Portuguese should have given autonomy to Goa and left.

Mario observes:

Floriano, the Portuguese were greedy colonialists who refused to acknowledge that the era of colonialism was over, even though the more powerful Brits and French had already accepted this as a fact.

They had FOURTEEN years to do this and were politely requested to do so over and over again, but encouraged mostly by the "brown European" Goan Catholics and some Goan Hindus who benefited from their presence and patronage, continued their farce of an "overseas province".

All India did was to bring Goa's medieval infrastructure into the 20th Century between 1961 and 1987 as a Union Territory. Goans seem to take this for granted today. I clearly remember how backward and outdated Goa's infrastructure was before 1961.

After Goa was turned over to the the Goans in 1987 the Goans began to elect and re-elect corrupt politicians, so would anything have been different if the Portuguese had voluntarily handed Goa back to the Goans sometime before 1961?
pcheryl
2009-10-05 20:28:25 UTC
Permalink
This is an open letter to all so called patriotic Goan's who sadly claim to be under
oppressive Indian rule and most often take great pleasure in all things foreign
while grossly filing to respect the land of their birth ( Goa)

1) First of all my dear friends ask not what the land of your ancestors has done
for you but ask what you are doing for the land of your ancestors.

As a registered voter in your own land you only are responsible for the people
you vote to power and the way they govern you. The fact that you are not satisfied
with your own people who govern you and make the laws of your land( Politicians),
shows that there is something grossly wrong with you your self ,as the government
consists of your representatives. Why then do you continue to get the same old
corrupt officials to power every election. You live in a land where your leaders are
chosen off the people , by the people and for the people . You live in a democracy ,
governed by your own fellow Goans , your so called Portuguese masters did not give
you this right and freedom , So dear friends wake up to changing times & the need
of the hour . Stop living in the past , least you lose touch with the present and
your future becomes obsolete .

Blame no one but your self for the misery you feel you are in . If many Goans are
moving out , it is because of lack of employment opportunities , remember the world
is no longer an agrarian economy it was in the nineteenth century. You continue to
bring the corrupt to power , you fail to oppose them , then don't lament and blame
others for what you are responsible for.


2) Goa has always been an Integral part of the Indian sub continent , be it by
blood and culture . Why else would Goans , (Christians inclusive) continue to live
& die by the Indian culture & caste system. Europeans do not have a caste system.
It is a fact that Portuguese came to India in search of fortunes of the East , they
did not come here for the sake of Goans ,or because Goa was a part of Europe. They
were here for their own selfish motive , Even Portugal & the rest of Europe has its
own set of problems today. If you feel that migrating to another part of the world
( Portuguese rule ) is a solution to your problems , Then I can only say that you
are behaving like the foolish Goat in Aseop's fable who felt that the grass on the
other side is greener, You are a sham ! Who is denying his responsibilities towards
his mother land Goa . This I feel is akin to a child who stays away from his aged
parents and keeps sending money every month with the word ' Parents I love you' .
Its easier to send money to the old and infirm rather than to stay with them and put
up with their infirmities. Making remittance back to your mother land is no solution
. You have to continue be a part of the so called corrupt system in Goa and yet
make a change by being honest in what ever little way you can be , never failing to
stand up for your rights and that of your neighbors. This is what it is to be a
Christian something you may call Portuguese inheritance. The same thing is said by
Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita . I an ardent Catholic Goan find it difficult to
return back to Goa and look after my ancestral property cause God knows which cousin
will resurrect from his grave and come for his shares I f you cannot be honest with
your own brethren and live happily then why blame the government only. if there is
to be peace and prosperity it should begin with me.


3) Even before Goa's liberation Goans have fought to defend the frontiers of India
and have left their mark in India Public Life. We have seen Goan's serve in the
Civil service & defense forces and reach the ranks of Commanding officers and Chief
of Staff ,all leaving behind their mark and shaping the destiny of India. Yet Indian
from other states have never opposed a Goan at the top , but have happily served
under Goans. Some Goans have achieved this not by paying reverence to any forces
foreign or Indian , but by their merit , determination and service to their mother
land.

Hence I could only say this to a few of my disgruntled fellow Goans stop behaving
like the last remnants of the Portuguese empire in India and start working for a
Better Goa ! A Goa of your dreams.

( My family lost a lot when the Portuguese were driven out of India . We lost our
business. My grand dad owned hotel Republica during Portuguese rule , My great
grand father had a number of shops & was a well respected social worker of his
time . We were once a part of the ruling Elite and sponsored most events in Goa.,
during Portuguese rule.. A major part of my family left for Portugal along with the
Portuguese. There certainly are glorious facts of the past handed down to me by my
ancestors but will certainly sound like fiction to my descendents. Hence today I am
only an Indian & have no hard feeling towards any one . Your destiny is in your
hands , there is no substitute to hard work and your duty . One should have the
courage of conviction , come out like Indians from other states and work hard for
ones self betterment and that of his nation )

Cheryl Pereira
Gilbert Lawrence
2009-10-06 02:13:15 UTC
Permalink
This is one well written response that?Goanet moderators should save and post it every time this topic comes up.

Regards, GL


------------- Cheryl Pereira?

?
This is an open letter to all so called patriotic Goan's who sadly claim to be under
oppressive Indian? rule and most often take great pleasure in all things foreign
while grossly failing to respect the land of their birth ( Goa)
Mario Goveia
2009-10-06 14:21:15 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:28:25 -0400
From: "pcheryl" <cheryl.pereira at stockholding.com>

Blame no one but your self for the misery you feel you are? in . If many Goans are moving out , it is because of lack of employment opportunities , remember? the world is no longer an agrarian economy it was in the nineteenth century. You continue to bring the corrupt to power ,? you fail to oppose them , then don't lament and blame others for what you are responsible for.

My family lost a lot when? the Portuguese were driven out of India .

Hence today I am only an Indian & have no hard feeling? towards any? one . Your destiny is in your hands , there is no substitute to hard work and your duty .

Mario observes:

Cheryl,

You are a true Indian patriot.

Though, like many Goan Catholics and a few select Hindu business families, your family benefited from the presence of the Portuguese occupiers, you have accepted with considerable maturity, dignity and grace that that was a different time and place that had to change with the changing world and the spread of freedom and democracy among previously European colonies.

Of course Goa has always been Indian by history and culture.? Anyone who denies this would be as delusional as the Portuguese sophistry that they could have an "overseas province" in a foreign land.? And the fact that Goans have been accepted across India and have distinguished themselves in all walks of life is simply undeniable.

I commend you on your astute observation about Catholic Goans clinging to the un-Christ-like pretense that they belonged to the castes of their Hindu ancestors when it suited them, while at the same time, identifying with the casteless Portuguese occupiers when it suited them.

If the Portuguese had had the foresight and the good will and the basic "akkal" to see that the world had changed, they could have turned Goa over to Goans, Goa could have been an independant and autonomous multi-cultural mini-country like Nepal.? Would it have been any different than the chaotic Goa of today?? I think it would have, but who really knows.? Certainly it would have enabled Goa to control its population better than they can as part of India, which seems to be a major concern on a few Goanetters. Unfortunately, many native Goans either cannot or choose not to compete with the non-Goans who have discovered the beauties and benefits of this tropical paradise, and are getting overshadowed in economic matters on their own home ground.

Instead, the Portuguese were trying to be greedy and too clever by half.? They misread the mood of the world, and the rest, as they say, is history.
Arwin Mesquita
2009-10-02 19:17:59 UTC
Permalink
ARWIN; MARIO PLS SEE MY REPLY IN CAPITALS

Mario responds:
I am not ignoring anything. Treaties are not passed by citizens.

Arwin Responds: Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a
democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the
final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not
being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my
opinion

Mario:Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.
Arwin responds: You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the
Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are
being reduced to a minority

What you and JC are ignoring is that representative democracies are not run
by referendum. Even if one had been held, I believe the majority of Goans
would have opted for kicking out the Portuguese occupiers, though many Goan
Catholics may have continued to opt for Portuguese bootlicking.
Arwin responds: How you are so sure of your irrelavabt belief, do you have
any supporting info facts?


Be thankful Goa was kept as one political entity, or Bardez may now be a
part of Maharashtra and Salcette a part of Karnataka.
Arwin responds: Thankful for what?? The Way Goa is going away from Goans
today.. In a Few Years Goa will anyway look like a part of Maharashtra or a
part of Karnataka.

Case closed. Time to move on.
Arwin : Sorry Mario, Only Majority Goans can decide if this case is closed
or not; and not individually you or me for that matter
Arwin : Time to move to to what are you indicating here? Give up on Goa,
Migrate to USA/EUROPE etc.. do nothing for Goa,.. Let Goa Rot and Let Goa no
longer belong to Goans? Are you giving such views to safeguard you immigrant
status in te USA or do you actually care for the Future of Goa & Goans ??


--
Please post your comments on my Blog: http://goanidentity.blogspot.com/

Please also see below:
1. Benaulim Village Action Committee: http://www.bvacbenaulim.blogspot.com/

2. "Rape of Goa" : http://www.parrikar.com/blog/the-rape-of-goa/

3. MAND - an adivasi-rights resource centre : http://mandgoa.blogspot.com/

4. EVERY GOAN SHOULD SEE THIS VIDEO:
http://infochangeindia.org/Infochange-documentary.html

5. For the Love of Konkani: http://www.radiogoa.net/

6. Goa's Identity Movement website: http://www.goamag.net/gim
Alfred de Tavares
2009-10-02 20:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Treaties not 'passed' by citizens, Mario?

Let us not delve into past for precedents...

Suffice to watch the pangs feced by the Lisbon treaty in Ireland...

Ipso factus est...
Alfred
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:17:59 +0400
From: arwinmesquita at gmail.com
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Re. Indian Colonoliasm
ARWIN; MARIO PLS SEE MY REPLY IN CAPITALS
I am not ignoring anything. Treaties are not passed by citizens.
Arwin Responds: Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a
democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the
final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not
being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my
opinion
Mario:Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.
Arwin responds: You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the
Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are
being reduced to a minority
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_1:092010
Mario Goveia
2009-10-05 00:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arwin Mesquita
Treaties are not passed by citizens.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:17:59 +0400
From: Arwin Mesquita <arwinmesquita at gmail.com>

Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my opinion.

Mario responds:

Arwin,

Goans HAVE BEEN the final authority regarding whom they elect to run Goa for several years now.

I'm not sure what more you want, other than, perhaps, to be made Maharajah of Goa:-)) I think I would vote for Floriano to be the Maharajah:-))

It seems you know about as much about a "representative democracy" form of government as you know about your mythical Goan identity. In a "representative democracy" which is what India is, the authority of the citizens is exercised when they elect their representatives. In between formal elections they are not required to be formally consulted.

Mario previously wrote:

Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.

Arwin responded:

You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are being reduced to a minority.

Mario responds:

I visit Goa once a year and own a home there. I'm not even going to mention in this discussion that you don't even live in Goa:-))

As a Catholic growing up in India, I have always been a minority. I have no problem being a minority. Even in Goa Catholics were a minority even when some of them were Portuguese bootlickers.

If all Goans are being reduced to a minority because other Indians are relocating there there is nothing you can do about it since India has long been a part of India.

Mario previously wrote:

What you and JC are ignoring is that representative democracies are not run
by referendum. Even if one had been held, I believe the majority of Goans
would have opted for kicking out the Portuguese occupiers, though many Goan
Catholics may have continued to opt for Portuguese bootlicking.

Arwin responded:

How you are so sure of your irrelavabt belief, do you have any supporting info facts?

Mario responds:

I have exactly as many facts as you do:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Be thankful Goa was kept as one political entity, or Bardez may now be a
part of Maharashtra and Salcette a part of Karnataka.

Arwin responded:

Thankful for what?? The Way Goa is going away from Goans today.. In a Few Years Goa will anyway look like a part of Maharashtra or a part of Karnataka.

Mario responds:

Goa is not going anywhere. If Goa becomes more like Maharashtra or Karnataka, so be it. You may be right but there is nothing you can do about it because I don't see anyone making you Maharajah of Goa:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Case closed. Time to move on.

Arwin responded:

Sorry Mario, Only Majority Goans can decide if this case is closed
or not; and not individually you or me for that matter

Mario responds:

Sorry, Arwin. After liberating Goa from the Europeans who had forcibly invaded it and occupied it for 450 years, India graciously gave Goa back to the Goans to run as a state without dividing it. That case is closed.

Whatever problems you perceive, whether real or imagined, have to be addressed by electing honest politicians and then seeing if you can convince them to run Goa the way you want, withing the constitution of Goa and of India.

Arwin wrote:

Time to move to to what are you indicating here? Give up on Goa,
Migrate to USA/EUROPE etc.. do nothing for Goa,.. Let Goa Rot and Let Goa no longer belong to Goans? Are you giving such views to safeguard you immigrant status in te USA or do you actually care for the Future of Goa & Goans ??

Mario responds:

Each Goan will decide for themselves what they want to do for themselves and their families, just as they have always done and just as you have done by choosing to work in the Gulf.

What I care about - in Goa and the rest of India - is the bribery and corruption, electing and re-electing dishonest politicians, the abysmal lack of civic sense and consideration for fellow citizens that no one in a leadership position seems to be addressing.
Mario Goveia
2009-10-05 02:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 22:20:18 +0200
From: Alfred de Tavares <alfredtavares at hotmail.com>

Treaties not 'passed' by citizens, Mario?

Mario responds:

That's right, Uncle Alfred. In a "representative democracy", treaties are generally not subject to referendums.

Has it occurred to you Portuguese sympathisers that the Portuguese did not hold a referendum in the early 1500s to see what Goans thought before invading and occupying Goa for 450 years?

In Portuguese occupied Goa, there was certainly no reason to ask the "permission" of the "occupied" before ejecting the "occupiers", who, by the way, had been politely asked to follow the example of the much more powerful Brits and the French for over a dozen years, but insisted on promulgating the farce of an "overseas province".

Besides, what did you want to ask the Goans at the time, i.e between 1961 and 1974, when it was a Union Territory and before the Portuguese finally saw the error of their ways and formally signed the treaty of 1974 which so many Goans were unaware of until informed by the lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace:-)) But seriously, what did you want to know?

Besides, without any referendum, India later graciously gave Goa back to the Goans as a full fledged state. Most of the mess in Goa has taken place since then, has it not?
According to the landmark judgments delivered by the Supreme Court of
India - Delhi, Goa was "CONQUERED" by India and was not liberated on
19/12/61 from the Portuguese" also according to the U.N. resolution 1514
(XV) Goa is stated as "INVADED". We've now undergone 47 yrs of corrupt
"Bharoti" colonial rule over our Goa.
On the other hand one could take the instance that Bangladesh was
liberated by "Bharot" and given to their people who now have the honour
of being the proud citizens of Bangladesh, whereas Goa wasn't, instead
it was conquered and forcefully annexed to the Indian Union, just as how
Saddam had invaded Kuwait on 2/8/90. In other words, Goa was "ROBBED"
from Goans by Nehru's "Bharot".
Mario responds:

Aye, aye, aye! Are these two individuals serious - or seriously delusional?

Someone needs to enlighten these Portuguese apologists that it was their beloved Portuguese who had forcibly INVADED and CONQUERED and OCCUPIED Goa and ROBBED it of its natural resources for 450 years, and in 1974 finally gave up their long held farce that it was an "overseas province" and formally accepted India's sovereignty over Goa.

Many Goan Catholics, some of whom still fantasize about being "brown Europeans" - the community that benefited the most before 1961 - seem surprised to learn of the treaty of 1974. We see them these days writing bogus revisionist columns in O'Heraldo or on Goanet insisting that a referendum should have been held before Goa was liberated from its prior forced occupation by the European invaders.

Some of these folks do not seem aware that India graciously gave Goa back to the Goans as a full fledged state in 1987, and most of the corruption and ugly and inappropriate development has taken place since then.

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 10:45:28 +0530
From: "floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com>

Otherwise, they would have told Barot that after freeing Goa of the Portuguese, Goa's management and affairs should be handed over to the Goans - in an exclusive autonomy.

Mario responds:

What am I missing here? Didn't this happen in 1987?

Floriano wrote:

Goa Su-Raj Party has gone on record to say that when it comes to power, it will either want to dissolve the Goa Freedom Fighter's Association for good or it has to cull the fakes from its list if they want their self-respect restored back again.

Mario asks:

Are any of these Indian patriots left? My relative who drove the Portuguese nuts by broadcasting anti-Portuguese messaages into Goa on All India Radio died years ago.

Floriano wrote:

Ideally, the Portuguese should have given autonomy to Goa and left.

Mario observes:

Floriano, the Portuguese were greedy colonialists who refused to acknowledge that the era of colonialism was over, even though the more powerful Brits and French had already accepted this as a fact.

They had FOURTEEN years to do this and were politely requested to do so over and over again, but encouraged mostly by the "brown European" Goan Catholics and some Goan Hindus who benefited from their presence and patronage, continued their farce of an "overseas province".

All India did was to bring Goa's medieval infrastructure into the 20th Century between 1961 and 1987 as a Union Territory. Goans seem to take this for granted today. I clearly remember how backward and outdated Goa's infrastructure was before 1961.

After Goa was turned over to the the Goans in 1987 the Goans began to elect and re-elect corrupt politicians, so would anything have been different if the Portuguese had voluntarily handed Goa back to the Goans sometime before 1961?
pcheryl
2009-10-05 20:28:25 UTC
Permalink
This is an open letter to all so called patriotic Goan's who sadly claim to be under
oppressive Indian rule and most often take great pleasure in all things foreign
while grossly filing to respect the land of their birth ( Goa)

1) First of all my dear friends ask not what the land of your ancestors has done
for you but ask what you are doing for the land of your ancestors.

As a registered voter in your own land you only are responsible for the people
you vote to power and the way they govern you. The fact that you are not satisfied
with your own people who govern you and make the laws of your land( Politicians),
shows that there is something grossly wrong with you your self ,as the government
consists of your representatives. Why then do you continue to get the same old
corrupt officials to power every election. You live in a land where your leaders are
chosen off the people , by the people and for the people . You live in a democracy ,
governed by your own fellow Goans , your so called Portuguese masters did not give
you this right and freedom , So dear friends wake up to changing times & the need
of the hour . Stop living in the past , least you lose touch with the present and
your future becomes obsolete .

Blame no one but your self for the misery you feel you are in . If many Goans are
moving out , it is because of lack of employment opportunities , remember the world
is no longer an agrarian economy it was in the nineteenth century. You continue to
bring the corrupt to power , you fail to oppose them , then don't lament and blame
others for what you are responsible for.


2) Goa has always been an Integral part of the Indian sub continent , be it by
blood and culture . Why else would Goans , (Christians inclusive) continue to live
& die by the Indian culture & caste system. Europeans do not have a caste system.
It is a fact that Portuguese came to India in search of fortunes of the East , they
did not come here for the sake of Goans ,or because Goa was a part of Europe. They
were here for their own selfish motive , Even Portugal & the rest of Europe has its
own set of problems today. If you feel that migrating to another part of the world
( Portuguese rule ) is a solution to your problems , Then I can only say that you
are behaving like the foolish Goat in Aseop's fable who felt that the grass on the
other side is greener, You are a sham ! Who is denying his responsibilities towards
his mother land Goa . This I feel is akin to a child who stays away from his aged
parents and keeps sending money every month with the word ' Parents I love you' .
Its easier to send money to the old and infirm rather than to stay with them and put
up with their infirmities. Making remittance back to your mother land is no solution
. You have to continue be a part of the so called corrupt system in Goa and yet
make a change by being honest in what ever little way you can be , never failing to
stand up for your rights and that of your neighbors. This is what it is to be a
Christian something you may call Portuguese inheritance. The same thing is said by
Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita . I an ardent Catholic Goan find it difficult to
return back to Goa and look after my ancestral property cause God knows which cousin
will resurrect from his grave and come for his shares I f you cannot be honest with
your own brethren and live happily then why blame the government only. if there is
to be peace and prosperity it should begin with me.


3) Even before Goa's liberation Goans have fought to defend the frontiers of India
and have left their mark in India Public Life. We have seen Goan's serve in the
Civil service & defense forces and reach the ranks of Commanding officers and Chief
of Staff ,all leaving behind their mark and shaping the destiny of India. Yet Indian
from other states have never opposed a Goan at the top , but have happily served
under Goans. Some Goans have achieved this not by paying reverence to any forces
foreign or Indian , but by their merit , determination and service to their mother
land.

Hence I could only say this to a few of my disgruntled fellow Goans stop behaving
like the last remnants of the Portuguese empire in India and start working for a
Better Goa ! A Goa of your dreams.

( My family lost a lot when the Portuguese were driven out of India . We lost our
business. My grand dad owned hotel Republica during Portuguese rule , My great
grand father had a number of shops & was a well respected social worker of his
time . We were once a part of the ruling Elite and sponsored most events in Goa.,
during Portuguese rule.. A major part of my family left for Portugal along with the
Portuguese. There certainly are glorious facts of the past handed down to me by my
ancestors but will certainly sound like fiction to my descendents. Hence today I am
only an Indian & have no hard feeling towards any one . Your destiny is in your
hands , there is no substitute to hard work and your duty . One should have the
courage of conviction , come out like Indians from other states and work hard for
ones self betterment and that of his nation )

Cheryl Pereira
Gilbert Lawrence
2009-10-06 02:13:15 UTC
Permalink
This is one well written response that?Goanet moderators should save and post it every time this topic comes up.

Regards, GL


------------- Cheryl Pereira?

?
This is an open letter to all so called patriotic Goan's who sadly claim to be under
oppressive Indian? rule and most often take great pleasure in all things foreign
while grossly failing to respect the land of their birth ( Goa)
Mario Goveia
2009-10-06 14:21:15 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:28:25 -0400
From: "pcheryl" <cheryl.pereira at stockholding.com>

Blame no one but your self for the misery you feel you are? in . If many Goans are moving out , it is because of lack of employment opportunities , remember? the world is no longer an agrarian economy it was in the nineteenth century. You continue to bring the corrupt to power ,? you fail to oppose them , then don't lament and blame others for what you are responsible for.

My family lost a lot when? the Portuguese were driven out of India .

Hence today I am only an Indian & have no hard feeling? towards any? one . Your destiny is in your hands , there is no substitute to hard work and your duty .

Mario observes:

Cheryl,

You are a true Indian patriot.

Though, like many Goan Catholics and a few select Hindu business families, your family benefited from the presence of the Portuguese occupiers, you have accepted with considerable maturity, dignity and grace that that was a different time and place that had to change with the changing world and the spread of freedom and democracy among previously European colonies.

Of course Goa has always been Indian by history and culture.? Anyone who denies this would be as delusional as the Portuguese sophistry that they could have an "overseas province" in a foreign land.? And the fact that Goans have been accepted across India and have distinguished themselves in all walks of life is simply undeniable.

I commend you on your astute observation about Catholic Goans clinging to the un-Christ-like pretense that they belonged to the castes of their Hindu ancestors when it suited them, while at the same time, identifying with the casteless Portuguese occupiers when it suited them.

If the Portuguese had had the foresight and the good will and the basic "akkal" to see that the world had changed, they could have turned Goa over to Goans, Goa could have been an independant and autonomous multi-cultural mini-country like Nepal.? Would it have been any different than the chaotic Goa of today?? I think it would have, but who really knows.? Certainly it would have enabled Goa to control its population better than they can as part of India, which seems to be a major concern on a few Goanetters. Unfortunately, many native Goans either cannot or choose not to compete with the non-Goans who have discovered the beauties and benefits of this tropical paradise, and are getting overshadowed in economic matters on their own home ground.

Instead, the Portuguese were trying to be greedy and too clever by half.? They misread the mood of the world, and the rest, as they say, is history.
Arwin Mesquita
2009-10-02 19:17:59 UTC
Permalink
ARWIN; MARIO PLS SEE MY REPLY IN CAPITALS

Mario responds:
I am not ignoring anything. Treaties are not passed by citizens.

Arwin Responds: Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a
democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the
final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not
being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my
opinion

Mario:Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.
Arwin responds: You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the
Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are
being reduced to a minority

What you and JC are ignoring is that representative democracies are not run
by referendum. Even if one had been held, I believe the majority of Goans
would have opted for kicking out the Portuguese occupiers, though many Goan
Catholics may have continued to opt for Portuguese bootlicking.
Arwin responds: How you are so sure of your irrelavabt belief, do you have
any supporting info facts?


Be thankful Goa was kept as one political entity, or Bardez may now be a
part of Maharashtra and Salcette a part of Karnataka.
Arwin responds: Thankful for what?? The Way Goa is going away from Goans
today.. In a Few Years Goa will anyway look like a part of Maharashtra or a
part of Karnataka.

Case closed. Time to move on.
Arwin : Sorry Mario, Only Majority Goans can decide if this case is closed
or not; and not individually you or me for that matter
Arwin : Time to move to to what are you indicating here? Give up on Goa,
Migrate to USA/EUROPE etc.. do nothing for Goa,.. Let Goa Rot and Let Goa no
longer belong to Goans? Are you giving such views to safeguard you immigrant
status in te USA or do you actually care for the Future of Goa & Goans ??


--
Please post your comments on my Blog: http://goanidentity.blogspot.com/

Please also see below:
1. Benaulim Village Action Committee: http://www.bvacbenaulim.blogspot.com/

2. "Rape of Goa" : http://www.parrikar.com/blog/the-rape-of-goa/

3. MAND - an adivasi-rights resource centre : http://mandgoa.blogspot.com/

4. EVERY GOAN SHOULD SEE THIS VIDEO:
http://infochangeindia.org/Infochange-documentary.html

5. For the Love of Konkani: http://www.radiogoa.net/

6. Goa's Identity Movement website: http://www.goamag.net/gim
Alfred de Tavares
2009-10-02 20:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Treaties not 'passed' by citizens, Mario?

Let us not delve into past for precedents...

Suffice to watch the pangs feced by the Lisbon treaty in Ireland...

Ipso factus est...
Alfred
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:17:59 +0400
From: arwinmesquita at gmail.com
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Re. Indian Colonoliasm
ARWIN; MARIO PLS SEE MY REPLY IN CAPITALS
I am not ignoring anything. Treaties are not passed by citizens.
Arwin Responds: Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a
democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the
final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not
being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my
opinion
Mario:Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.
Arwin responds: You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the
Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are
being reduced to a minority
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_1:092010
Mario Goveia
2009-10-05 00:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arwin Mesquita
Treaties are not passed by citizens.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:17:59 +0400
From: Arwin Mesquita <arwinmesquita at gmail.com>

Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my opinion.

Mario responds:

Arwin,

Goans HAVE BEEN the final authority regarding whom they elect to run Goa for several years now.

I'm not sure what more you want, other than, perhaps, to be made Maharajah of Goa:-)) I think I would vote for Floriano to be the Maharajah:-))

It seems you know about as much about a "representative democracy" form of government as you know about your mythical Goan identity. In a "representative democracy" which is what India is, the authority of the citizens is exercised when they elect their representatives. In between formal elections they are not required to be formally consulted.

Mario previously wrote:

Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.

Arwin responded:

You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are being reduced to a minority.

Mario responds:

I visit Goa once a year and own a home there. I'm not even going to mention in this discussion that you don't even live in Goa:-))

As a Catholic growing up in India, I have always been a minority. I have no problem being a minority. Even in Goa Catholics were a minority even when some of them were Portuguese bootlickers.

If all Goans are being reduced to a minority because other Indians are relocating there there is nothing you can do about it since India has long been a part of India.

Mario previously wrote:

What you and JC are ignoring is that representative democracies are not run
by referendum. Even if one had been held, I believe the majority of Goans
would have opted for kicking out the Portuguese occupiers, though many Goan
Catholics may have continued to opt for Portuguese bootlicking.

Arwin responded:

How you are so sure of your irrelavabt belief, do you have any supporting info facts?

Mario responds:

I have exactly as many facts as you do:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Be thankful Goa was kept as one political entity, or Bardez may now be a
part of Maharashtra and Salcette a part of Karnataka.

Arwin responded:

Thankful for what?? The Way Goa is going away from Goans today.. In a Few Years Goa will anyway look like a part of Maharashtra or a part of Karnataka.

Mario responds:

Goa is not going anywhere. If Goa becomes more like Maharashtra or Karnataka, so be it. You may be right but there is nothing you can do about it because I don't see anyone making you Maharajah of Goa:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Case closed. Time to move on.

Arwin responded:

Sorry Mario, Only Majority Goans can decide if this case is closed
or not; and not individually you or me for that matter

Mario responds:

Sorry, Arwin. After liberating Goa from the Europeans who had forcibly invaded it and occupied it for 450 years, India graciously gave Goa back to the Goans to run as a state without dividing it. That case is closed.

Whatever problems you perceive, whether real or imagined, have to be addressed by electing honest politicians and then seeing if you can convince them to run Goa the way you want, withing the constitution of Goa and of India.

Arwin wrote:

Time to move to to what are you indicating here? Give up on Goa,
Migrate to USA/EUROPE etc.. do nothing for Goa,.. Let Goa Rot and Let Goa no longer belong to Goans? Are you giving such views to safeguard you immigrant status in te USA or do you actually care for the Future of Goa & Goans ??

Mario responds:

Each Goan will decide for themselves what they want to do for themselves and their families, just as they have always done and just as you have done by choosing to work in the Gulf.

What I care about - in Goa and the rest of India - is the bribery and corruption, electing and re-electing dishonest politicians, the abysmal lack of civic sense and consideration for fellow citizens that no one in a leadership position seems to be addressing.
Mario Goveia
2009-10-05 02:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 22:20:18 +0200
From: Alfred de Tavares <alfredtavares at hotmail.com>

Treaties not 'passed' by citizens, Mario?

Mario responds:

That's right, Uncle Alfred. In a "representative democracy", treaties are generally not subject to referendums.

Has it occurred to you Portuguese sympathisers that the Portuguese did not hold a referendum in the early 1500s to see what Goans thought before invading and occupying Goa for 450 years?

In Portuguese occupied Goa, there was certainly no reason to ask the "permission" of the "occupied" before ejecting the "occupiers", who, by the way, had been politely asked to follow the example of the much more powerful Brits and the French for over a dozen years, but insisted on promulgating the farce of an "overseas province".

Besides, what did you want to ask the Goans at the time, i.e between 1961 and 1974, when it was a Union Territory and before the Portuguese finally saw the error of their ways and formally signed the treaty of 1974 which so many Goans were unaware of until informed by the lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace:-)) But seriously, what did you want to know?

Besides, without any referendum, India later graciously gave Goa back to the Goans as a full fledged state. Most of the mess in Goa has taken place since then, has it not?
According to the landmark judgments delivered by the Supreme Court of
India - Delhi, Goa was "CONQUERED" by India and was not liberated on
19/12/61 from the Portuguese" also according to the U.N. resolution 1514
(XV) Goa is stated as "INVADED". We've now undergone 47 yrs of corrupt
"Bharoti" colonial rule over our Goa.
On the other hand one could take the instance that Bangladesh was
liberated by "Bharot" and given to their people who now have the honour
of being the proud citizens of Bangladesh, whereas Goa wasn't, instead
it was conquered and forcefully annexed to the Indian Union, just as how
Saddam had invaded Kuwait on 2/8/90. In other words, Goa was "ROBBED"
from Goans by Nehru's "Bharot".
Mario responds:

Aye, aye, aye! Are these two individuals serious - or seriously delusional?

Someone needs to enlighten these Portuguese apologists that it was their beloved Portuguese who had forcibly INVADED and CONQUERED and OCCUPIED Goa and ROBBED it of its natural resources for 450 years, and in 1974 finally gave up their long held farce that it was an "overseas province" and formally accepted India's sovereignty over Goa.

Many Goan Catholics, some of whom still fantasize about being "brown Europeans" - the community that benefited the most before 1961 - seem surprised to learn of the treaty of 1974. We see them these days writing bogus revisionist columns in O'Heraldo or on Goanet insisting that a referendum should have been held before Goa was liberated from its prior forced occupation by the European invaders.

Some of these folks do not seem aware that India graciously gave Goa back to the Goans as a full fledged state in 1987, and most of the corruption and ugly and inappropriate development has taken place since then.

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 10:45:28 +0530
From: "floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com>

Otherwise, they would have told Barot that after freeing Goa of the Portuguese, Goa's management and affairs should be handed over to the Goans - in an exclusive autonomy.

Mario responds:

What am I missing here? Didn't this happen in 1987?

Floriano wrote:

Goa Su-Raj Party has gone on record to say that when it comes to power, it will either want to dissolve the Goa Freedom Fighter's Association for good or it has to cull the fakes from its list if they want their self-respect restored back again.

Mario asks:

Are any of these Indian patriots left? My relative who drove the Portuguese nuts by broadcasting anti-Portuguese messaages into Goa on All India Radio died years ago.

Floriano wrote:

Ideally, the Portuguese should have given autonomy to Goa and left.

Mario observes:

Floriano, the Portuguese were greedy colonialists who refused to acknowledge that the era of colonialism was over, even though the more powerful Brits and French had already accepted this as a fact.

They had FOURTEEN years to do this and were politely requested to do so over and over again, but encouraged mostly by the "brown European" Goan Catholics and some Goan Hindus who benefited from their presence and patronage, continued their farce of an "overseas province".

All India did was to bring Goa's medieval infrastructure into the 20th Century between 1961 and 1987 as a Union Territory. Goans seem to take this for granted today. I clearly remember how backward and outdated Goa's infrastructure was before 1961.

After Goa was turned over to the the Goans in 1987 the Goans began to elect and re-elect corrupt politicians, so would anything have been different if the Portuguese had voluntarily handed Goa back to the Goans sometime before 1961?
pcheryl
2009-10-05 20:28:25 UTC
Permalink
This is an open letter to all so called patriotic Goan's who sadly claim to be under
oppressive Indian rule and most often take great pleasure in all things foreign
while grossly filing to respect the land of their birth ( Goa)

1) First of all my dear friends ask not what the land of your ancestors has done
for you but ask what you are doing for the land of your ancestors.

As a registered voter in your own land you only are responsible for the people
you vote to power and the way they govern you. The fact that you are not satisfied
with your own people who govern you and make the laws of your land( Politicians),
shows that there is something grossly wrong with you your self ,as the government
consists of your representatives. Why then do you continue to get the same old
corrupt officials to power every election. You live in a land where your leaders are
chosen off the people , by the people and for the people . You live in a democracy ,
governed by your own fellow Goans , your so called Portuguese masters did not give
you this right and freedom , So dear friends wake up to changing times & the need
of the hour . Stop living in the past , least you lose touch with the present and
your future becomes obsolete .

Blame no one but your self for the misery you feel you are in . If many Goans are
moving out , it is because of lack of employment opportunities , remember the world
is no longer an agrarian economy it was in the nineteenth century. You continue to
bring the corrupt to power , you fail to oppose them , then don't lament and blame
others for what you are responsible for.


2) Goa has always been an Integral part of the Indian sub continent , be it by
blood and culture . Why else would Goans , (Christians inclusive) continue to live
& die by the Indian culture & caste system. Europeans do not have a caste system.
It is a fact that Portuguese came to India in search of fortunes of the East , they
did not come here for the sake of Goans ,or because Goa was a part of Europe. They
were here for their own selfish motive , Even Portugal & the rest of Europe has its
own set of problems today. If you feel that migrating to another part of the world
( Portuguese rule ) is a solution to your problems , Then I can only say that you
are behaving like the foolish Goat in Aseop's fable who felt that the grass on the
other side is greener, You are a sham ! Who is denying his responsibilities towards
his mother land Goa . This I feel is akin to a child who stays away from his aged
parents and keeps sending money every month with the word ' Parents I love you' .
Its easier to send money to the old and infirm rather than to stay with them and put
up with their infirmities. Making remittance back to your mother land is no solution
. You have to continue be a part of the so called corrupt system in Goa and yet
make a change by being honest in what ever little way you can be , never failing to
stand up for your rights and that of your neighbors. This is what it is to be a
Christian something you may call Portuguese inheritance. The same thing is said by
Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita . I an ardent Catholic Goan find it difficult to
return back to Goa and look after my ancestral property cause God knows which cousin
will resurrect from his grave and come for his shares I f you cannot be honest with
your own brethren and live happily then why blame the government only. if there is
to be peace and prosperity it should begin with me.


3) Even before Goa's liberation Goans have fought to defend the frontiers of India
and have left their mark in India Public Life. We have seen Goan's serve in the
Civil service & defense forces and reach the ranks of Commanding officers and Chief
of Staff ,all leaving behind their mark and shaping the destiny of India. Yet Indian
from other states have never opposed a Goan at the top , but have happily served
under Goans. Some Goans have achieved this not by paying reverence to any forces
foreign or Indian , but by their merit , determination and service to their mother
land.

Hence I could only say this to a few of my disgruntled fellow Goans stop behaving
like the last remnants of the Portuguese empire in India and start working for a
Better Goa ! A Goa of your dreams.

( My family lost a lot when the Portuguese were driven out of India . We lost our
business. My grand dad owned hotel Republica during Portuguese rule , My great
grand father had a number of shops & was a well respected social worker of his
time . We were once a part of the ruling Elite and sponsored most events in Goa.,
during Portuguese rule.. A major part of my family left for Portugal along with the
Portuguese. There certainly are glorious facts of the past handed down to me by my
ancestors but will certainly sound like fiction to my descendents. Hence today I am
only an Indian & have no hard feeling towards any one . Your destiny is in your
hands , there is no substitute to hard work and your duty . One should have the
courage of conviction , come out like Indians from other states and work hard for
ones self betterment and that of his nation )

Cheryl Pereira
Gilbert Lawrence
2009-10-06 02:13:15 UTC
Permalink
This is one well written response that?Goanet moderators should save and post it every time this topic comes up.

Regards, GL


------------- Cheryl Pereira?

?
This is an open letter to all so called patriotic Goan's who sadly claim to be under
oppressive Indian? rule and most often take great pleasure in all things foreign
while grossly failing to respect the land of their birth ( Goa)
Mario Goveia
2009-10-06 14:21:15 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:28:25 -0400
From: "pcheryl" <cheryl.pereira at stockholding.com>

Blame no one but your self for the misery you feel you are? in . If many Goans are moving out , it is because of lack of employment opportunities , remember? the world is no longer an agrarian economy it was in the nineteenth century. You continue to bring the corrupt to power ,? you fail to oppose them , then don't lament and blame others for what you are responsible for.

My family lost a lot when? the Portuguese were driven out of India .

Hence today I am only an Indian & have no hard feeling? towards any? one . Your destiny is in your hands , there is no substitute to hard work and your duty .

Mario observes:

Cheryl,

You are a true Indian patriot.

Though, like many Goan Catholics and a few select Hindu business families, your family benefited from the presence of the Portuguese occupiers, you have accepted with considerable maturity, dignity and grace that that was a different time and place that had to change with the changing world and the spread of freedom and democracy among previously European colonies.

Of course Goa has always been Indian by history and culture.? Anyone who denies this would be as delusional as the Portuguese sophistry that they could have an "overseas province" in a foreign land.? And the fact that Goans have been accepted across India and have distinguished themselves in all walks of life is simply undeniable.

I commend you on your astute observation about Catholic Goans clinging to the un-Christ-like pretense that they belonged to the castes of their Hindu ancestors when it suited them, while at the same time, identifying with the casteless Portuguese occupiers when it suited them.

If the Portuguese had had the foresight and the good will and the basic "akkal" to see that the world had changed, they could have turned Goa over to Goans, Goa could have been an independant and autonomous multi-cultural mini-country like Nepal.? Would it have been any different than the chaotic Goa of today?? I think it would have, but who really knows.? Certainly it would have enabled Goa to control its population better than they can as part of India, which seems to be a major concern on a few Goanetters. Unfortunately, many native Goans either cannot or choose not to compete with the non-Goans who have discovered the beauties and benefits of this tropical paradise, and are getting overshadowed in economic matters on their own home ground.

Instead, the Portuguese were trying to be greedy and too clever by half.? They misread the mood of the world, and the rest, as they say, is history.
Arwin Mesquita
2009-10-02 19:17:59 UTC
Permalink
ARWIN; MARIO PLS SEE MY REPLY IN CAPITALS

Mario responds:
I am not ignoring anything. Treaties are not passed by citizens.

Arwin Responds: Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a
democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the
final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not
being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my
opinion

Mario:Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.
Arwin responds: You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the
Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are
being reduced to a minority

What you and JC are ignoring is that representative democracies are not run
by referendum. Even if one had been held, I believe the majority of Goans
would have opted for kicking out the Portuguese occupiers, though many Goan
Catholics may have continued to opt for Portuguese bootlicking.
Arwin responds: How you are so sure of your irrelavabt belief, do you have
any supporting info facts?


Be thankful Goa was kept as one political entity, or Bardez may now be a
part of Maharashtra and Salcette a part of Karnataka.
Arwin responds: Thankful for what?? The Way Goa is going away from Goans
today.. In a Few Years Goa will anyway look like a part of Maharashtra or a
part of Karnataka.

Case closed. Time to move on.
Arwin : Sorry Mario, Only Majority Goans can decide if this case is closed
or not; and not individually you or me for that matter
Arwin : Time to move to to what are you indicating here? Give up on Goa,
Migrate to USA/EUROPE etc.. do nothing for Goa,.. Let Goa Rot and Let Goa no
longer belong to Goans? Are you giving such views to safeguard you immigrant
status in te USA or do you actually care for the Future of Goa & Goans ??


--
Please post your comments on my Blog: http://goanidentity.blogspot.com/

Please also see below:
1. Benaulim Village Action Committee: http://www.bvacbenaulim.blogspot.com/

2. "Rape of Goa" : http://www.parrikar.com/blog/the-rape-of-goa/

3. MAND - an adivasi-rights resource centre : http://mandgoa.blogspot.com/

4. EVERY GOAN SHOULD SEE THIS VIDEO:
http://infochangeindia.org/Infochange-documentary.html

5. For the Love of Konkani: http://www.radiogoa.net/

6. Goa's Identity Movement website: http://www.goamag.net/gim
Alfred de Tavares
2009-10-02 20:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Treaties not 'passed' by citizens, Mario?

Let us not delve into past for precedents...

Suffice to watch the pangs feced by the Lisbon treaty in Ireland...

Ipso factus est...
Alfred
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:17:59 +0400
From: arwinmesquita at gmail.com
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Re. Indian Colonoliasm
ARWIN; MARIO PLS SEE MY REPLY IN CAPITALS
I am not ignoring anything. Treaties are not passed by citizens.
Arwin Responds: Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a
democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the
final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not
being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my
opinion
Mario:Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.
Arwin responds: You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the
Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are
being reduced to a minority
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_1:092010
Mario Goveia
2009-10-05 00:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arwin Mesquita
Treaties are not passed by citizens.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:17:59 +0400
From: Arwin Mesquita <arwinmesquita at gmail.com>

Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my opinion.

Mario responds:

Arwin,

Goans HAVE BEEN the final authority regarding whom they elect to run Goa for several years now.

I'm not sure what more you want, other than, perhaps, to be made Maharajah of Goa:-)) I think I would vote for Floriano to be the Maharajah:-))

It seems you know about as much about a "representative democracy" form of government as you know about your mythical Goan identity. In a "representative democracy" which is what India is, the authority of the citizens is exercised when they elect their representatives. In between formal elections they are not required to be formally consulted.

Mario previously wrote:

Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.

Arwin responded:

You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are being reduced to a minority.

Mario responds:

I visit Goa once a year and own a home there. I'm not even going to mention in this discussion that you don't even live in Goa:-))

As a Catholic growing up in India, I have always been a minority. I have no problem being a minority. Even in Goa Catholics were a minority even when some of them were Portuguese bootlickers.

If all Goans are being reduced to a minority because other Indians are relocating there there is nothing you can do about it since India has long been a part of India.

Mario previously wrote:

What you and JC are ignoring is that representative democracies are not run
by referendum. Even if one had been held, I believe the majority of Goans
would have opted for kicking out the Portuguese occupiers, though many Goan
Catholics may have continued to opt for Portuguese bootlicking.

Arwin responded:

How you are so sure of your irrelavabt belief, do you have any supporting info facts?

Mario responds:

I have exactly as many facts as you do:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Be thankful Goa was kept as one political entity, or Bardez may now be a
part of Maharashtra and Salcette a part of Karnataka.

Arwin responded:

Thankful for what?? The Way Goa is going away from Goans today.. In a Few Years Goa will anyway look like a part of Maharashtra or a part of Karnataka.

Mario responds:

Goa is not going anywhere. If Goa becomes more like Maharashtra or Karnataka, so be it. You may be right but there is nothing you can do about it because I don't see anyone making you Maharajah of Goa:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Case closed. Time to move on.

Arwin responded:

Sorry Mario, Only Majority Goans can decide if this case is closed
or not; and not individually you or me for that matter

Mario responds:

Sorry, Arwin. After liberating Goa from the Europeans who had forcibly invaded it and occupied it for 450 years, India graciously gave Goa back to the Goans to run as a state without dividing it. That case is closed.

Whatever problems you perceive, whether real or imagined, have to be addressed by electing honest politicians and then seeing if you can convince them to run Goa the way you want, withing the constitution of Goa and of India.

Arwin wrote:

Time to move to to what are you indicating here? Give up on Goa,
Migrate to USA/EUROPE etc.. do nothing for Goa,.. Let Goa Rot and Let Goa no longer belong to Goans? Are you giving such views to safeguard you immigrant status in te USA or do you actually care for the Future of Goa & Goans ??

Mario responds:

Each Goan will decide for themselves what they want to do for themselves and their families, just as they have always done and just as you have done by choosing to work in the Gulf.

What I care about - in Goa and the rest of India - is the bribery and corruption, electing and re-electing dishonest politicians, the abysmal lack of civic sense and consideration for fellow citizens that no one in a leadership position seems to be addressing.
Mario Goveia
2009-10-05 02:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 22:20:18 +0200
From: Alfred de Tavares <alfredtavares at hotmail.com>

Treaties not 'passed' by citizens, Mario?

Mario responds:

That's right, Uncle Alfred. In a "representative democracy", treaties are generally not subject to referendums.

Has it occurred to you Portuguese sympathisers that the Portuguese did not hold a referendum in the early 1500s to see what Goans thought before invading and occupying Goa for 450 years?

In Portuguese occupied Goa, there was certainly no reason to ask the "permission" of the "occupied" before ejecting the "occupiers", who, by the way, had been politely asked to follow the example of the much more powerful Brits and the French for over a dozen years, but insisted on promulgating the farce of an "overseas province".

Besides, what did you want to ask the Goans at the time, i.e between 1961 and 1974, when it was a Union Territory and before the Portuguese finally saw the error of their ways and formally signed the treaty of 1974 which so many Goans were unaware of until informed by the lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace:-)) But seriously, what did you want to know?

Besides, without any referendum, India later graciously gave Goa back to the Goans as a full fledged state. Most of the mess in Goa has taken place since then, has it not?
According to the landmark judgments delivered by the Supreme Court of
India - Delhi, Goa was "CONQUERED" by India and was not liberated on
19/12/61 from the Portuguese" also according to the U.N. resolution 1514
(XV) Goa is stated as "INVADED". We've now undergone 47 yrs of corrupt
"Bharoti" colonial rule over our Goa.
On the other hand one could take the instance that Bangladesh was
liberated by "Bharot" and given to their people who now have the honour
of being the proud citizens of Bangladesh, whereas Goa wasn't, instead
it was conquered and forcefully annexed to the Indian Union, just as how
Saddam had invaded Kuwait on 2/8/90. In other words, Goa was "ROBBED"
from Goans by Nehru's "Bharot".
Mario responds:

Aye, aye, aye! Are these two individuals serious - or seriously delusional?

Someone needs to enlighten these Portuguese apologists that it was their beloved Portuguese who had forcibly INVADED and CONQUERED and OCCUPIED Goa and ROBBED it of its natural resources for 450 years, and in 1974 finally gave up their long held farce that it was an "overseas province" and formally accepted India's sovereignty over Goa.

Many Goan Catholics, some of whom still fantasize about being "brown Europeans" - the community that benefited the most before 1961 - seem surprised to learn of the treaty of 1974. We see them these days writing bogus revisionist columns in O'Heraldo or on Goanet insisting that a referendum should have been held before Goa was liberated from its prior forced occupation by the European invaders.

Some of these folks do not seem aware that India graciously gave Goa back to the Goans as a full fledged state in 1987, and most of the corruption and ugly and inappropriate development has taken place since then.

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 10:45:28 +0530
From: "floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com>

Otherwise, they would have told Barot that after freeing Goa of the Portuguese, Goa's management and affairs should be handed over to the Goans - in an exclusive autonomy.

Mario responds:

What am I missing here? Didn't this happen in 1987?

Floriano wrote:

Goa Su-Raj Party has gone on record to say that when it comes to power, it will either want to dissolve the Goa Freedom Fighter's Association for good or it has to cull the fakes from its list if they want their self-respect restored back again.

Mario asks:

Are any of these Indian patriots left? My relative who drove the Portuguese nuts by broadcasting anti-Portuguese messaages into Goa on All India Radio died years ago.

Floriano wrote:

Ideally, the Portuguese should have given autonomy to Goa and left.

Mario observes:

Floriano, the Portuguese were greedy colonialists who refused to acknowledge that the era of colonialism was over, even though the more powerful Brits and French had already accepted this as a fact.

They had FOURTEEN years to do this and were politely requested to do so over and over again, but encouraged mostly by the "brown European" Goan Catholics and some Goan Hindus who benefited from their presence and patronage, continued their farce of an "overseas province".

All India did was to bring Goa's medieval infrastructure into the 20th Century between 1961 and 1987 as a Union Territory. Goans seem to take this for granted today. I clearly remember how backward and outdated Goa's infrastructure was before 1961.

After Goa was turned over to the the Goans in 1987 the Goans began to elect and re-elect corrupt politicians, so would anything have been different if the Portuguese had voluntarily handed Goa back to the Goans sometime before 1961?
pcheryl
2009-10-05 20:28:25 UTC
Permalink
This is an open letter to all so called patriotic Goan's who sadly claim to be under
oppressive Indian rule and most often take great pleasure in all things foreign
while grossly filing to respect the land of their birth ( Goa)

1) First of all my dear friends ask not what the land of your ancestors has done
for you but ask what you are doing for the land of your ancestors.

As a registered voter in your own land you only are responsible for the people
you vote to power and the way they govern you. The fact that you are not satisfied
with your own people who govern you and make the laws of your land( Politicians),
shows that there is something grossly wrong with you your self ,as the government
consists of your representatives. Why then do you continue to get the same old
corrupt officials to power every election. You live in a land where your leaders are
chosen off the people , by the people and for the people . You live in a democracy ,
governed by your own fellow Goans , your so called Portuguese masters did not give
you this right and freedom , So dear friends wake up to changing times & the need
of the hour . Stop living in the past , least you lose touch with the present and
your future becomes obsolete .

Blame no one but your self for the misery you feel you are in . If many Goans are
moving out , it is because of lack of employment opportunities , remember the world
is no longer an agrarian economy it was in the nineteenth century. You continue to
bring the corrupt to power , you fail to oppose them , then don't lament and blame
others for what you are responsible for.


2) Goa has always been an Integral part of the Indian sub continent , be it by
blood and culture . Why else would Goans , (Christians inclusive) continue to live
& die by the Indian culture & caste system. Europeans do not have a caste system.
It is a fact that Portuguese came to India in search of fortunes of the East , they
did not come here for the sake of Goans ,or because Goa was a part of Europe. They
were here for their own selfish motive , Even Portugal & the rest of Europe has its
own set of problems today. If you feel that migrating to another part of the world
( Portuguese rule ) is a solution to your problems , Then I can only say that you
are behaving like the foolish Goat in Aseop's fable who felt that the grass on the
other side is greener, You are a sham ! Who is denying his responsibilities towards
his mother land Goa . This I feel is akin to a child who stays away from his aged
parents and keeps sending money every month with the word ' Parents I love you' .
Its easier to send money to the old and infirm rather than to stay with them and put
up with their infirmities. Making remittance back to your mother land is no solution
. You have to continue be a part of the so called corrupt system in Goa and yet
make a change by being honest in what ever little way you can be , never failing to
stand up for your rights and that of your neighbors. This is what it is to be a
Christian something you may call Portuguese inheritance. The same thing is said by
Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita . I an ardent Catholic Goan find it difficult to
return back to Goa and look after my ancestral property cause God knows which cousin
will resurrect from his grave and come for his shares I f you cannot be honest with
your own brethren and live happily then why blame the government only. if there is
to be peace and prosperity it should begin with me.


3) Even before Goa's liberation Goans have fought to defend the frontiers of India
and have left their mark in India Public Life. We have seen Goan's serve in the
Civil service & defense forces and reach the ranks of Commanding officers and Chief
of Staff ,all leaving behind their mark and shaping the destiny of India. Yet Indian
from other states have never opposed a Goan at the top , but have happily served
under Goans. Some Goans have achieved this not by paying reverence to any forces
foreign or Indian , but by their merit , determination and service to their mother
land.

Hence I could only say this to a few of my disgruntled fellow Goans stop behaving
like the last remnants of the Portuguese empire in India and start working for a
Better Goa ! A Goa of your dreams.

( My family lost a lot when the Portuguese were driven out of India . We lost our
business. My grand dad owned hotel Republica during Portuguese rule , My great
grand father had a number of shops & was a well respected social worker of his
time . We were once a part of the ruling Elite and sponsored most events in Goa.,
during Portuguese rule.. A major part of my family left for Portugal along with the
Portuguese. There certainly are glorious facts of the past handed down to me by my
ancestors but will certainly sound like fiction to my descendents. Hence today I am
only an Indian & have no hard feeling towards any one . Your destiny is in your
hands , there is no substitute to hard work and your duty . One should have the
courage of conviction , come out like Indians from other states and work hard for
ones self betterment and that of his nation )

Cheryl Pereira
Gilbert Lawrence
2009-10-06 02:13:15 UTC
Permalink
This is one well written response that?Goanet moderators should save and post it every time this topic comes up.

Regards, GL


------------- Cheryl Pereira?

?
This is an open letter to all so called patriotic Goan's who sadly claim to be under
oppressive Indian? rule and most often take great pleasure in all things foreign
while grossly failing to respect the land of their birth ( Goa)
Mario Goveia
2009-10-06 14:21:15 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:28:25 -0400
From: "pcheryl" <cheryl.pereira at stockholding.com>

Blame no one but your self for the misery you feel you are? in . If many Goans are moving out , it is because of lack of employment opportunities , remember? the world is no longer an agrarian economy it was in the nineteenth century. You continue to bring the corrupt to power ,? you fail to oppose them , then don't lament and blame others for what you are responsible for.

My family lost a lot when? the Portuguese were driven out of India .

Hence today I am only an Indian & have no hard feeling? towards any? one . Your destiny is in your hands , there is no substitute to hard work and your duty .

Mario observes:

Cheryl,

You are a true Indian patriot.

Though, like many Goan Catholics and a few select Hindu business families, your family benefited from the presence of the Portuguese occupiers, you have accepted with considerable maturity, dignity and grace that that was a different time and place that had to change with the changing world and the spread of freedom and democracy among previously European colonies.

Of course Goa has always been Indian by history and culture.? Anyone who denies this would be as delusional as the Portuguese sophistry that they could have an "overseas province" in a foreign land.? And the fact that Goans have been accepted across India and have distinguished themselves in all walks of life is simply undeniable.

I commend you on your astute observation about Catholic Goans clinging to the un-Christ-like pretense that they belonged to the castes of their Hindu ancestors when it suited them, while at the same time, identifying with the casteless Portuguese occupiers when it suited them.

If the Portuguese had had the foresight and the good will and the basic "akkal" to see that the world had changed, they could have turned Goa over to Goans, Goa could have been an independant and autonomous multi-cultural mini-country like Nepal.? Would it have been any different than the chaotic Goa of today?? I think it would have, but who really knows.? Certainly it would have enabled Goa to control its population better than they can as part of India, which seems to be a major concern on a few Goanetters. Unfortunately, many native Goans either cannot or choose not to compete with the non-Goans who have discovered the beauties and benefits of this tropical paradise, and are getting overshadowed in economic matters on their own home ground.

Instead, the Portuguese were trying to be greedy and too clever by half.? They misread the mood of the world, and the rest, as they say, is history.
Arwin Mesquita
2009-10-02 19:17:59 UTC
Permalink
ARWIN; MARIO PLS SEE MY REPLY IN CAPITALS

Mario responds:
I am not ignoring anything. Treaties are not passed by citizens.

Arwin Responds: Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a
democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the
final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not
being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my
opinion

Mario:Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.
Arwin responds: You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the
Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are
being reduced to a minority

What you and JC are ignoring is that representative democracies are not run
by referendum. Even if one had been held, I believe the majority of Goans
would have opted for kicking out the Portuguese occupiers, though many Goan
Catholics may have continued to opt for Portuguese bootlicking.
Arwin responds: How you are so sure of your irrelavabt belief, do you have
any supporting info facts?


Be thankful Goa was kept as one political entity, or Bardez may now be a
part of Maharashtra and Salcette a part of Karnataka.
Arwin responds: Thankful for what?? The Way Goa is going away from Goans
today.. In a Few Years Goa will anyway look like a part of Maharashtra or a
part of Karnataka.

Case closed. Time to move on.
Arwin : Sorry Mario, Only Majority Goans can decide if this case is closed
or not; and not individually you or me for that matter
Arwin : Time to move to to what are you indicating here? Give up on Goa,
Migrate to USA/EUROPE etc.. do nothing for Goa,.. Let Goa Rot and Let Goa no
longer belong to Goans? Are you giving such views to safeguard you immigrant
status in te USA or do you actually care for the Future of Goa & Goans ??


--
Please post your comments on my Blog: http://goanidentity.blogspot.com/

Please also see below:
1. Benaulim Village Action Committee: http://www.bvacbenaulim.blogspot.com/

2. "Rape of Goa" : http://www.parrikar.com/blog/the-rape-of-goa/

3. MAND - an adivasi-rights resource centre : http://mandgoa.blogspot.com/

4. EVERY GOAN SHOULD SEE THIS VIDEO:
http://infochangeindia.org/Infochange-documentary.html

5. For the Love of Konkani: http://www.radiogoa.net/

6. Goa's Identity Movement website: http://www.goamag.net/gim
Alfred de Tavares
2009-10-02 20:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Treaties not 'passed' by citizens, Mario?

Let us not delve into past for precedents...

Suffice to watch the pangs feced by the Lisbon treaty in Ireland...

Ipso factus est...
Alfred
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:17:59 +0400
From: arwinmesquita at gmail.com
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Re. Indian Colonoliasm
ARWIN; MARIO PLS SEE MY REPLY IN CAPITALS
I am not ignoring anything. Treaties are not passed by citizens.
Arwin Responds: Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a
democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the
final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not
being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my
opinion
Mario:Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.
Arwin responds: You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the
Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are
being reduced to a minority
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_1:092010
Mario Goveia
2009-10-05 00:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arwin Mesquita
Treaties are not passed by citizens.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 23:17:59 +0400
From: Arwin Mesquita <arwinmesquita at gmail.com>

Are you based in a country run by a dictatorship or a democratic country to make such a illogical statement?? Citizens are the final authority on the future of thier land. So in the view of the same not being done, this treaty you so strongly support is Null & Void; in my opinion.

Mario responds:

Arwin,

Goans HAVE BEEN the final authority regarding whom they elect to run Goa for several years now.

I'm not sure what more you want, other than, perhaps, to be made Maharajah of Goa:-)) I think I would vote for Floriano to be the Maharajah:-))

It seems you know about as much about a "representative democracy" form of government as you know about your mythical Goan identity. In a "representative democracy" which is what India is, the authority of the citizens is exercised when they elect their representatives. In between formal elections they are not required to be formally consulted.

Mario previously wrote:

Asking the "permission" of Goans to liberate Goa from invaders who had
occupied it for 450 years would be like the police asking a kidnapped
family's permission to rescue them.

Arwin responded:

You mean liberate Goa for Goans Or Liberate Goa from the Goans: I suggest you visit Goa and see for yourself how today Goans are being reduced to a minority.

Mario responds:

I visit Goa once a year and own a home there. I'm not even going to mention in this discussion that you don't even live in Goa:-))

As a Catholic growing up in India, I have always been a minority. I have no problem being a minority. Even in Goa Catholics were a minority even when some of them were Portuguese bootlickers.

If all Goans are being reduced to a minority because other Indians are relocating there there is nothing you can do about it since India has long been a part of India.

Mario previously wrote:

What you and JC are ignoring is that representative democracies are not run
by referendum. Even if one had been held, I believe the majority of Goans
would have opted for kicking out the Portuguese occupiers, though many Goan
Catholics may have continued to opt for Portuguese bootlicking.

Arwin responded:

How you are so sure of your irrelavabt belief, do you have any supporting info facts?

Mario responds:

I have exactly as many facts as you do:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Be thankful Goa was kept as one political entity, or Bardez may now be a
part of Maharashtra and Salcette a part of Karnataka.

Arwin responded:

Thankful for what?? The Way Goa is going away from Goans today.. In a Few Years Goa will anyway look like a part of Maharashtra or a part of Karnataka.

Mario responds:

Goa is not going anywhere. If Goa becomes more like Maharashtra or Karnataka, so be it. You may be right but there is nothing you can do about it because I don't see anyone making you Maharajah of Goa:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Case closed. Time to move on.

Arwin responded:

Sorry Mario, Only Majority Goans can decide if this case is closed
or not; and not individually you or me for that matter

Mario responds:

Sorry, Arwin. After liberating Goa from the Europeans who had forcibly invaded it and occupied it for 450 years, India graciously gave Goa back to the Goans to run as a state without dividing it. That case is closed.

Whatever problems you perceive, whether real or imagined, have to be addressed by electing honest politicians and then seeing if you can convince them to run Goa the way you want, withing the constitution of Goa and of India.

Arwin wrote:

Time to move to to what are you indicating here? Give up on Goa,
Migrate to USA/EUROPE etc.. do nothing for Goa,.. Let Goa Rot and Let Goa no longer belong to Goans? Are you giving such views to safeguard you immigrant status in te USA or do you actually care for the Future of Goa & Goans ??

Mario responds:

Each Goan will decide for themselves what they want to do for themselves and their families, just as they have always done and just as you have done by choosing to work in the Gulf.

What I care about - in Goa and the rest of India - is the bribery and corruption, electing and re-electing dishonest politicians, the abysmal lack of civic sense and consideration for fellow citizens that no one in a leadership position seems to be addressing.
Mario Goveia
2009-10-05 02:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 22:20:18 +0200
From: Alfred de Tavares <alfredtavares at hotmail.com>

Treaties not 'passed' by citizens, Mario?

Mario responds:

That's right, Uncle Alfred. In a "representative democracy", treaties are generally not subject to referendums.

Has it occurred to you Portuguese sympathisers that the Portuguese did not hold a referendum in the early 1500s to see what Goans thought before invading and occupying Goa for 450 years?

In Portuguese occupied Goa, there was certainly no reason to ask the "permission" of the "occupied" before ejecting the "occupiers", who, by the way, had been politely asked to follow the example of the much more powerful Brits and the French for over a dozen years, but insisted on promulgating the farce of an "overseas province".

Besides, what did you want to ask the Goans at the time, i.e between 1961 and 1974, when it was a Union Territory and before the Portuguese finally saw the error of their ways and formally signed the treaty of 1974 which so many Goans were unaware of until informed by the lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace:-)) But seriously, what did you want to know?

Besides, without any referendum, India later graciously gave Goa back to the Goans as a full fledged state. Most of the mess in Goa has taken place since then, has it not?
According to the landmark judgments delivered by the Supreme Court of
India - Delhi, Goa was "CONQUERED" by India and was not liberated on
19/12/61 from the Portuguese" also according to the U.N. resolution 1514
(XV) Goa is stated as "INVADED". We've now undergone 47 yrs of corrupt
"Bharoti" colonial rule over our Goa.
On the other hand one could take the instance that Bangladesh was
liberated by "Bharot" and given to their people who now have the honour
of being the proud citizens of Bangladesh, whereas Goa wasn't, instead
it was conquered and forcefully annexed to the Indian Union, just as how
Saddam had invaded Kuwait on 2/8/90. In other words, Goa was "ROBBED"
from Goans by Nehru's "Bharot".
Mario responds:

Aye, aye, aye! Are these two individuals serious - or seriously delusional?

Someone needs to enlighten these Portuguese apologists that it was their beloved Portuguese who had forcibly INVADED and CONQUERED and OCCUPIED Goa and ROBBED it of its natural resources for 450 years, and in 1974 finally gave up their long held farce that it was an "overseas province" and formally accepted India's sovereignty over Goa.

Many Goan Catholics, some of whom still fantasize about being "brown Europeans" - the community that benefited the most before 1961 - seem surprised to learn of the treaty of 1974. We see them these days writing bogus revisionist columns in O'Heraldo or on Goanet insisting that a referendum should have been held before Goa was liberated from its prior forced occupation by the European invaders.

Some of these folks do not seem aware that India graciously gave Goa back to the Goans as a full fledged state in 1987, and most of the corruption and ugly and inappropriate development has taken place since then.

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 10:45:28 +0530
From: "floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com>

Otherwise, they would have told Barot that after freeing Goa of the Portuguese, Goa's management and affairs should be handed over to the Goans - in an exclusive autonomy.

Mario responds:

What am I missing here? Didn't this happen in 1987?

Floriano wrote:

Goa Su-Raj Party has gone on record to say that when it comes to power, it will either want to dissolve the Goa Freedom Fighter's Association for good or it has to cull the fakes from its list if they want their self-respect restored back again.

Mario asks:

Are any of these Indian patriots left? My relative who drove the Portuguese nuts by broadcasting anti-Portuguese messaages into Goa on All India Radio died years ago.

Floriano wrote:

Ideally, the Portuguese should have given autonomy to Goa and left.

Mario observes:

Floriano, the Portuguese were greedy colonialists who refused to acknowledge that the era of colonialism was over, even though the more powerful Brits and French had already accepted this as a fact.

They had FOURTEEN years to do this and were politely requested to do so over and over again, but encouraged mostly by the "brown European" Goan Catholics and some Goan Hindus who benefited from their presence and patronage, continued their farce of an "overseas province".

All India did was to bring Goa's medieval infrastructure into the 20th Century between 1961 and 1987 as a Union Territory. Goans seem to take this for granted today. I clearly remember how backward and outdated Goa's infrastructure was before 1961.

After Goa was turned over to the the Goans in 1987 the Goans began to elect and re-elect corrupt politicians, so would anything have been different if the Portuguese had voluntarily handed Goa back to the Goans sometime before 1961?
pcheryl
2009-10-05 20:28:25 UTC
Permalink
This is an open letter to all so called patriotic Goan's who sadly claim to be under
oppressive Indian rule and most often take great pleasure in all things foreign
while grossly filing to respect the land of their birth ( Goa)

1) First of all my dear friends ask not what the land of your ancestors has done
for you but ask what you are doing for the land of your ancestors.

As a registered voter in your own land you only are responsible for the people
you vote to power and the way they govern you. The fact that you are not satisfied
with your own people who govern you and make the laws of your land( Politicians),
shows that there is something grossly wrong with you your self ,as the government
consists of your representatives. Why then do you continue to get the same old
corrupt officials to power every election. You live in a land where your leaders are
chosen off the people , by the people and for the people . You live in a democracy ,
governed by your own fellow Goans , your so called Portuguese masters did not give
you this right and freedom , So dear friends wake up to changing times & the need
of the hour . Stop living in the past , least you lose touch with the present and
your future becomes obsolete .

Blame no one but your self for the misery you feel you are in . If many Goans are
moving out , it is because of lack of employment opportunities , remember the world
is no longer an agrarian economy it was in the nineteenth century. You continue to
bring the corrupt to power , you fail to oppose them , then don't lament and blame
others for what you are responsible for.


2) Goa has always been an Integral part of the Indian sub continent , be it by
blood and culture . Why else would Goans , (Christians inclusive) continue to live
& die by the Indian culture & caste system. Europeans do not have a caste system.
It is a fact that Portuguese came to India in search of fortunes of the East , they
did not come here for the sake of Goans ,or because Goa was a part of Europe. They
were here for their own selfish motive , Even Portugal & the rest of Europe has its
own set of problems today. If you feel that migrating to another part of the world
( Portuguese rule ) is a solution to your problems , Then I can only say that you
are behaving like the foolish Goat in Aseop's fable who felt that the grass on the
other side is greener, You are a sham ! Who is denying his responsibilities towards
his mother land Goa . This I feel is akin to a child who stays away from his aged
parents and keeps sending money every month with the word ' Parents I love you' .
Its easier to send money to the old and infirm rather than to stay with them and put
up with their infirmities. Making remittance back to your mother land is no solution
. You have to continue be a part of the so called corrupt system in Goa and yet
make a change by being honest in what ever little way you can be , never failing to
stand up for your rights and that of your neighbors. This is what it is to be a
Christian something you may call Portuguese inheritance. The same thing is said by
Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita . I an ardent Catholic Goan find it difficult to
return back to Goa and look after my ancestral property cause God knows which cousin
will resurrect from his grave and come for his shares I f you cannot be honest with
your own brethren and live happily then why blame the government only. if there is
to be peace and prosperity it should begin with me.


3) Even before Goa's liberation Goans have fought to defend the frontiers of India
and have left their mark in India Public Life. We have seen Goan's serve in the
Civil service & defense forces and reach the ranks of Commanding officers and Chief
of Staff ,all leaving behind their mark and shaping the destiny of India. Yet Indian
from other states have never opposed a Goan at the top , but have happily served
under Goans. Some Goans have achieved this not by paying reverence to any forces
foreign or Indian , but by their merit , determination and service to their mother
land.

Hence I could only say this to a few of my disgruntled fellow Goans stop behaving
like the last remnants of the Portuguese empire in India and start working for a
Better Goa ! A Goa of your dreams.

( My family lost a lot when the Portuguese were driven out of India . We lost our
business. My grand dad owned hotel Republica during Portuguese rule , My great
grand father had a number of shops & was a well respected social worker of his
time . We were once a part of the ruling Elite and sponsored most events in Goa.,
during Portuguese rule.. A major part of my family left for Portugal along with the
Portuguese. There certainly are glorious facts of the past handed down to me by my
ancestors but will certainly sound like fiction to my descendents. Hence today I am
only an Indian & have no hard feeling towards any one . Your destiny is in your
hands , there is no substitute to hard work and your duty . One should have the
courage of conviction , come out like Indians from other states and work hard for
ones self betterment and that of his nation )

Cheryl Pereira
Gilbert Lawrence
2009-10-06 02:13:15 UTC
Permalink
This is one well written response that?Goanet moderators should save and post it every time this topic comes up.

Regards, GL


------------- Cheryl Pereira?

?
This is an open letter to all so called patriotic Goan's who sadly claim to be under
oppressive Indian? rule and most often take great pleasure in all things foreign
while grossly failing to respect the land of their birth ( Goa)
Mario Goveia
2009-10-06 14:21:15 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:28:25 -0400
From: "pcheryl" <cheryl.pereira at stockholding.com>

Blame no one but your self for the misery you feel you are? in . If many Goans are moving out , it is because of lack of employment opportunities , remember? the world is no longer an agrarian economy it was in the nineteenth century. You continue to bring the corrupt to power ,? you fail to oppose them , then don't lament and blame others for what you are responsible for.

My family lost a lot when? the Portuguese were driven out of India .

Hence today I am only an Indian & have no hard feeling? towards any? one . Your destiny is in your hands , there is no substitute to hard work and your duty .

Mario observes:

Cheryl,

You are a true Indian patriot.

Though, like many Goan Catholics and a few select Hindu business families, your family benefited from the presence of the Portuguese occupiers, you have accepted with considerable maturity, dignity and grace that that was a different time and place that had to change with the changing world and the spread of freedom and democracy among previously European colonies.

Of course Goa has always been Indian by history and culture.? Anyone who denies this would be as delusional as the Portuguese sophistry that they could have an "overseas province" in a foreign land.? And the fact that Goans have been accepted across India and have distinguished themselves in all walks of life is simply undeniable.

I commend you on your astute observation about Catholic Goans clinging to the un-Christ-like pretense that they belonged to the castes of their Hindu ancestors when it suited them, while at the same time, identifying with the casteless Portuguese occupiers when it suited them.

If the Portuguese had had the foresight and the good will and the basic "akkal" to see that the world had changed, they could have turned Goa over to Goans, Goa could have been an independant and autonomous multi-cultural mini-country like Nepal.? Would it have been any different than the chaotic Goa of today?? I think it would have, but who really knows.? Certainly it would have enabled Goa to control its population better than they can as part of India, which seems to be a major concern on a few Goanetters. Unfortunately, many native Goans either cannot or choose not to compete with the non-Goans who have discovered the beauties and benefits of this tropical paradise, and are getting overshadowed in economic matters on their own home ground.

Instead, the Portuguese were trying to be greedy and too clever by half.? They misread the mood of the world, and the rest, as they say, is history.
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