Discussion:
The migrant danger to Goa
(too old to reply)
anesimo56
2008-05-05 23:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Dear Goanet Readers

Santosh Helekar wrote>This would not be enough.The following additional prescription would be needed.

The above comments about Rajans?interview is written in bad taste and to denigrate his work.The issue about immigrants is not Rajans fantasy or imagination.This issue is bugging goyenkars big time.They think?it is just a question of time before we have major problems.In Margao there was a law and order situation among the Muslims over a burial. it was between the goans and non-Goans.I was expecting the secular goanetters to blame it on BJP.I beleive this problem is not yet resolved.

Rajan is talking about the rich non-Goans who are destroying our land,environment,pushing the land prices sky high?using ?their black money and encouraging corruption. He is talking about the other migrants who have no business to be goa,and are pitching up huts all over?the public and communidade land, defecating,urinating?and spitting all over the place.?

Goans did not fight OPINION POLL for nothing.Those who were not born at that time or too?young enough to remember,should ask their elders why they wanted Goa a separate entity.Rajan is saying what exactly most goyenkars say and feel. The only thing is, he is too honest, blunt and passionate about Goa.?I call him a niz goyenkar and will fully support any of his initiatives that will help Goa and Goans.?

It amazes me how pride and ego can affects ones rational thinking even to the extend of destroying ones motherland.

Cheers

Dr. Anesimo Fernandes?
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Satyawan Govekar
2008-05-06 08:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Dotor Anemiso Fernandes is saying to Santosh bab Helekar that his comments about Rajans?interview is written in bad taste and to denigrate his work.

Dotor bab what you are saying is not correct. I found Santosh bab's comments very funny. Rajan bab is doing a good job but we must identify who are real migrant. Go to Shirgao and see what Dempos (from Karwar), Chowgules (from Belgaum) and Bandekar from Maharashtra have done to the village.

All these bhatkars are actually nonGoan who came and did boot licking of the Portugese and put all land on their name. Goa's land is actually belonging to the tribals like Gawda, Dhangar, Kunbi and Velip. Can you give these people justice?

Who is selling the land of Goa? it is the same bhatkar people who are become builders, miners, newspaper owners and politicians. They are the worst migrant who are pretending to be Goan just because they are upper caste. They are the migrant danger to Goa. But nobody will throw them out.

Satyamev Jayate
Chris Vaz
2008-05-06 12:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Anesimo--

You are right on!

I fully empathize with you re Rajan. A true patriot!

I have also offered (together with a couple of other friends) whatever help
Rajan can use--both moral and financial.

I am very proud to have a fellow Goan like Rajan. When it is the welfare of
Goa, there is no divide among Christians, Muslims and Hindus! We are Goans
first!

Regards
Chris


----- Original Message -----
From: <anesimo56 at aim.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 7:04 PM
Subject: [Goanet] The migrant danger to Goa
Post by anesimo56
Dear Goanet Readers
Santosh Helekar wrote>This would not be enough.The following additional
prescription would be needed.
The above comments about Rajans?interview is written in bad taste and to
denigrate his work.The issue about immigrants is not Rajans fantasy or
imagination.This issue is bugging goyenkars big time.They think?it is just
a question of time before we have major problems.In Margao there was a law
and order situation among the Muslims over a burial. it was between the
goans and non-Goans.I was expecting the secular goanetters to blame it on
BJP.I beleive this problem is not yet resolved.
Rajan is talking about the rich non-Goans who are destroying our
land,environment,pushing the land prices sky high?using ?their black money
and encouraging corruption. He is talking about the other migrants who
have no business to be goa,and are pitching up huts all over?the public
and communidade land, defecating,urinating?and spitting all over the
place.?
Goans did not fight OPINION POLL for nothing.Those who were not born at
that time or too?young enough to remember,should ask their elders why they
wanted Goa a separate entity.Rajan is saying what exactly most goyenkars
say and feel. The only thing is, he is too honest, blunt and passionate
about Goa.?I call him a niz goyenkar and will fully support any of his
initiatives that will help Goa and Goans.?
It amazes me how pride and ego can affects ones rational thinking even to
the extend of destroying ones motherland.
Cheers
Dr. Anesimo Fernandes?
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Santosh Helekar
2008-05-06 13:00:01 UTC
Permalink
The comments quoted below reveal a misguided belief
that all goencars think alike, and that there is only
one xenophobic solution to the problems of Goa. A
little thought and some knowledge of Goan history
should tell us otherwise.

Goencars have varied opinions about what is good for
Goa. Some Goencars want to divorce themselves from
India completely, and become an independent nation.
Others want to ban non-Goans from settling and
purchasing land in Goa, and preserving something
called Goan identity. Some want to simply eliminate
Hindu nationalistic parties such as BJP. But there
still are many who want to join Maharashtra.

My own view like that of a sizable number, I am sure,
is to adopt reasonable solutions within the Indian
constitution, which, as I have said before is:

"obeying the laws, properly enforcing them, reforming
outdated ones and enacting new ones wherever necessary
- laws against corruption, misuse and pillage of land,
destruction of the environment and heritage, social
discrimination and prejudice, and exploitation of the
working class."

As far as my earlier post in this thread is concerned,
to those who want to choose the Goan nationalist or
segregationist option, I have suggested additional
essential steps that they need to take to preserve all
the Goan identities without committing treason. Yes,
there are many Goan identities - a separate identity
for each Hindu caste and outcaste, a separate identity
for each of the major castes of the Catholics, and
another one for the Muslims. I forgot to add the
following additional measure:

o) To divorce Goa completely from India, ban all
Indian nationalist parties such as the Bharatiya
Janata Party.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by anesimo56
The above comments about Rajans?interview is written
in bad taste and to denigrate his work.The issue
about immigrants is not Rajans fantasy or
imagination.This issue is bugging goyenkars big
time.They think?it is just a question of time before
we have major problems.In Margao there was a law and
order situation among the Muslims over a burial. it
was between the goans and non-Goans.I was expecting
the secular goanetters to blame it on BJP.I beleive
this problem is not yet resolved.
Santosh Helekar
2008-05-06 15:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Satyawan is speaking the satya. He reminded me that I
should have added the following prescription to
Rajan's list for serious consideration by Anesimo and
others:

p) Evict all non-Goan bhatkars who have stolen the
land of the original settlers of Goa.

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. BTW, all these prescriptions and many more have
already been adopted by President Pandurang of IRC. I
have asked him to email me his list.
Post by Satyawan Govekar
All these bhatkars are actually nonGoan who came and
did boot licking of the Portugese and put all land
on their name. Goa's land is actually belonging to
the tribals like Gawda, Dhangar, Kunbi and Velip.
Can you give these people justice?
Who is selling the land of Goa? it is the same
bhatkar people who are become builders, miners,
newspaper owners and politicians. They are the worst
migrant who are pretending to be Goan just because
they are upper caste. They are the migrant danger to
Goa. But nobody will throw them out.
anesimo56
2008-05-06 21:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear?Goanet Readers

Santosh Helekar wrote>The comments quoted below reveal a misguided belief that all goencars think alike and that there is only one xenophobic solution to the problem in Goa.?

The craving of Goans to preserve their unique Identity,culture and save Goa from destruction is a reality.The misguided are those ones who live in their own cuckoo?land and has no clue about the ground realities in Goa.Fighting for ones Identity is not called Xenophobia. There is something?called as majority?view and that view has not changed since?Opinion Poll, except that?it is being distorted by?Ani-Goans.??

If some of our Goans are so concerned about the immigrants,then they should help to?improve their deplorable living conditions in shanty towns.Better still,they help improve economic conditions in their own places so that they don't have to migrate.RIGHT NOW,?
THE PRIORITY OF GOYENKARS IS TO SAVE THEIR OWN HOUSE FROM FIRE!?

VIVA GOA,VIVA GOYENKAR

Cheers

Dr. Anesimo Fernandes
Mervyn Lobo
2008-05-06 21:27:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
As far as my earlier post in this thread is concerned,
to those who want to choose the Goan nationalist or
segregationist option, I have suggested additional
essential steps that they need to take to preserve all
the Goan identities without committing treason. Yes,
there are many Goan identities - a separate identity
for each Hindu caste and outcaste, a separate identity
for each of the major castes of the Catholics, and
another one for the Muslims. I
Santosh,
You forgot the non-believers and Goan Marxist identity. You know, the people who blow the fuses of the extreme right wingers here.
Mervyn


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Mario Goveia
2008-05-07 15:06:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
As far as my earlier post in this thread is
concerned, to those who want to choose the Goan
nationalist or segregationist option, I have
suggested additional essential steps that they need
to take to preserve all the Goan identities without
committing treason. Yes, there are many Goan
identities - a separate identity for each Hindu
caste and outcaste, a separate identity for each of
the major castes of the Catholics, and another one
for the Muslims. I
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 14:27:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
Santosh,
You forgot the non-believers and Goan Marxist
identity. You know, the people who blow the fuses of
the extreme right wingers here.
Mario wonders:
Which of these identities were being recently
recommended for the Goan diaspora to preserve "like
the Parsis" do?
BTW, the last time I checked, as an extremely
compassionate right winger, all my fuses were intact
and functioning perfectly:-))
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx. A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
"Marx should have started by questioning Marxism".
Mario's adaptation from Marx:-))
Carvalho
2008-05-07 16:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx. A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
-------------------------------
Mario,
Is there a paucity of quotes that we have to be
treated to this Reaganoid gemstone of wisdom, over and
over again :-)

Which brings me to another quote, a fellow
right-winger used in connection with Rajan Parriker
"doing God's work".

Now, I was curious about this phrase and its origin.
It turns out, in 1190, the Jews being relentlessly
persecuted in York, Great Britain, barricaded
themselves at Clifford Tower. Leading the Christian
mob was a hermit, who kept yelling to the Christians
"you are doing God's work". One of the Jews, threw a
stone from the tower which unfortunately landed on the
hermit and killed him. This enflamed the mob even
more. The Jews inside growing desperate committed mass
suicide. Those that chose to leave the tower was
massacred by the Christian mob.

Moral of the story: We have to be careful when doing
God's work in Goa.

selma


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Chris Vaz
2008-05-08 13:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Selmabai--

You found no need to object when comradebab keeps on with his silly,
meaningless refrain "Question Everything!" Even when he should know that
his Utopia has been consigned to the dustbin of histoire!

Could we possibly borrow that jewboy of yours to finish the unfinished
extremity Marx left behind? ;--))






----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] The migrant danger to Goa
Post by Carvalho
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx. A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
-------------------------------
Mario,
Is there a paucity of quotes that we have to be
treated to this Reaganoid gemstone of wisdom, over and
over again :-)
Which brings me to another quote, a fellow
right-winger used in connection with Rajan Parriker
"doing God's work".
Now, I was curious about this phrase and its origin.
It turns out, in 1190, the Jews being relentlessly
persecuted in York, Great Britain, barricaded
themselves at Clifford Tower. Leading the Christian
mob was a hermit, who kept yelling to the Christians
"you are doing God's work". One of the Jews, threw a
stone from the tower which unfortunately landed on the
hermit and killed him. This enflamed the mob even
more. The Jews inside growing desperate committed mass
suicide. Those that chose to leave the tower was
massacred by the Christian mob.
Moral of the story: We have to be careful when doing
God's work in Goa.
selma
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Chris Vaz
2008-05-08 13:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Selmabai--

You found no need to object when comradebab keeps on with his silly,
meaningless refrain "Question Everything!" Even when he should know that
his Utopia has been consigned to the dustbin of histoire!

Could we possibly borrow that jewboy of yours to finish the unfinished
extremity Marx left behind? ;--))






----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] The migrant danger to Goa
Post by Carvalho
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx. A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
-------------------------------
Mario,
Is there a paucity of quotes that we have to be
treated to this Reaganoid gemstone of wisdom, over and
over again :-)
Which brings me to another quote, a fellow
right-winger used in connection with Rajan Parriker
"doing God's work".
Now, I was curious about this phrase and its origin.
It turns out, in 1190, the Jews being relentlessly
persecuted in York, Great Britain, barricaded
themselves at Clifford Tower. Leading the Christian
mob was a hermit, who kept yelling to the Christians
"you are doing God's work". One of the Jews, threw a
stone from the tower which unfortunately landed on the
hermit and killed him. This enflamed the mob even
more. The Jews inside growing desperate committed mass
suicide. Those that chose to leave the tower was
massacred by the Christian mob.
Moral of the story: We have to be careful when doing
God's work in Goa.
selma
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Chris Vaz
2008-05-08 13:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Selmabai--

You found no need to object when comradebab keeps on with his silly,
meaningless refrain "Question Everything!" Even when he should know that
his Utopia has been consigned to the dustbin of histoire!

Could we possibly borrow that jewboy of yours to finish the unfinished
extremity Marx left behind? ;--))






----- Original Message -----
From: "Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] The migrant danger to Goa
Post by Carvalho
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx. A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
-------------------------------
Mario,
Is there a paucity of quotes that we have to be
treated to this Reaganoid gemstone of wisdom, over and
over again :-)
Which brings me to another quote, a fellow
right-winger used in connection with Rajan Parriker
"doing God's work".
Now, I was curious about this phrase and its origin.
It turns out, in 1190, the Jews being relentlessly
persecuted in York, Great Britain, barricaded
themselves at Clifford Tower. Leading the Christian
mob was a hermit, who kept yelling to the Christians
"you are doing God's work". One of the Jews, threw a
stone from the tower which unfortunately landed on the
hermit and killed him. This enflamed the mob even
more. The Jews inside growing desperate committed mass
suicide. Those that chose to leave the tower was
massacred by the Christian mob.
Moral of the story: We have to be careful when doing
God's work in Goa.
selma
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Mervyn Lobo
2008-05-08 03:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
BTW, the last time I checked, as an extremely
compassionate right winger, all my fuses were intact
and functioning perfectly:-))
?

?
Mario,
Self examination is always the best way to make an early discovery. However, the trained?professional can and does find abnormalities that?the self examiner misses.

?
?
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx.? A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
In my experience, those who?start changing a quote that they have often repeated,?are?the people?who have not sufficiently?understood the quote in the first place.
?
Mervyn3.0


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Mario Goveia
2008-05-08 16:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
BTW, the last time I checked, as an extremely
compassionate right winger, all my fuses were intact
and functioning perfectly:-))
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 20:18:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
Mario,
Self examination is always the best way to make an
early discovery. However, the trained?professional
can and does find abnormalities that?the self examiner
misses.
Mario responds:
In that case I recommend that you consult a trained
professional immediately - for your own good:-))
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx.? A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
From: Mervyn Lobo
In my experience, those who?start changing a quote
that they have often repeated,?are?the people?who have
not sufficiently?understood the quote in the first
place.
Mario responds:
Based on your "experience" which leads you to admire
the failed Marxist regimes in N. Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe
and Venezuela and recommend that Goa become like them
by trying Marxism, you are obviously not in any
position to understand that Goan Marxists are
Marxists, which makes my adaptation just as valid as
the original.
Carvalho
2008-05-08 18:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Vaz
Could we possibly borrow that jewboy of yours to
finish the unfinished
extremity Marx left behind? ;--))
--------------------------
He's only part jewboy, bebee, the rest of him is all
Irish Catholic :-)

This banter with Chris brings to the fore a serious
question. Discussions offline have hinted and hinged
on Goanet being too limited a canvas for the Goan
diaspora. Yes, Goa is of interest to us, but so are
events, people and discussions taking place outside of
Goa.

Should Goanet expand its perspective to allow
discussions that not necessarily pertain to Goa but
would be of interest to Goans? Or maybe Frederick
would be kind enough to set up another mailing list
for diaspora Goans :-)

Of late even I've become bored with the issues being
discussed on Goanet.

selma







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Mario Goveia
2008-05-08 17:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx. A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
Carvalho elisabeth_car at yahoo.com
Wed May 7 09:25:12 PDT 2008
Mario,
Is there a paucity of quotes that we have to be
treated to this Reaganoid gemstone of wisdom, over and
over again :-)
Mario responds:
Yes, there is. As we can see from Mervyn's reaction,
the quote needs to be repeated until everyone
understands Marx:-))
The other one that needs repeating in India and Goa is
"The scariest words in the English language are "I'm
from the government and I'm here to help you'"
Selma wrote:
Which brings me to another quote, a fellow
right-winger used in connection with Rajan Parriker
"doing God's work".
Mario responds:
I think God did his work when he CREATED the
mini-paradise called Goa where we are lucky our roots
EVOLVED:-))
After getting the ball rolling God tends to leave it
up to us to enhance, or mess up.
I think Rajan needs to be commended for doing OUR
[NRI's] work, by informing us very graphically about
what is going on in Goa.
When it comes to his solutions, however, King Canute
already graphically proved even he could not stop
inexorable progress, which is also a formula that
benefits some at the expense of others. Only under
oppressive Marxist systems can progress be stopped or
slowed down as we are seeing in the few Marxist
economic basket cases that still exist:
Here is Rajan's list followed by my comments:
a) Freeze all construction of residential projects and
construction on hills, and in CRZ zones.
b) Investigate and reverse voter fraud.
c) Step up law enforcement to deal with migrant
loiterers, illegal hawking, and encroachment, and
civic misdemeanors.
d) Clear all slums.
e) Ban sale of land to non-Goans.
f) Demand special status for Goa within the framework
of the Indian Union. [end of Rajan's recipe]
Freeze all construction? Easy for Rajan to say
because he has nothing invested in these projects. I
may agree if we could immediately impose zoning laws
which the builders would have to comply with and
financial assistance to help them adjust in the middle
of their projects with new requirements. If Goa had
local zoning laws, which no Goan activist is
promoting, no one would have to freeze any such
development.
Reverse voter fraud? Is Rajan serious? In a country
where felons behind bars can be and are elected?
Step up law enforcement - only against migrants?
Existing laws should already be enforced - against
everyone.
Clear all slums? OK. Then what? Are our
authoritarian activist's houses large enough?
Ban sale of land to non-Goans? Not possible when the
non-Goans are Indians.
Special status for Goa? In a giant highly diverse
country like India? Where would this precedent end?
Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel I wish Rajan
and the other activists would focus on solutions that
benefit everyone.
Mario Goveia
2008-05-08 22:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:44:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Should Goanet expand its perspective to allow
discussions that not necessarily pertain to Goa but
would be of interest to Goans?
Mario responds:
I have advocated this for years only to have verbal
garbage thrown at me by irate Goa-centric activists.
Actually some discussions do sneak in under the radar
as shown by the attacks on the US economy under the
guise of advising middle-East Goans about their
assets, and the attempt to establish that there is a
debate going on on the causes of climate change. But
these depend on how some reference to Goa is snuck in
and the mood of a moderator and are highly selective.
Selma writes:
Of late even I've become bored with the issues being
discussed on Goanet.
Mario responds:
Bored with Goanet? Surely you jest?
Bored with the fight to keep the caste system alive in
Goa and the diaspora?
Bored with the the fight to keep Goa pristine for the
sake of the existing landowners who are already safely
ensconced there?
Bored with the furious attack on the hapless non-Goan
migrants, without whom Goa's economy would come to a
standstill, and the BJP who always make a convenient
punching bag?
Bored with the scientific research - if it comes from
the UN it has to be scientific, right - that would
deny meat-loving Goans their sorpotel and chorizos,
vindaloo and xacuti all for the sake of the planet:-))
Bored with graphic displays of the rape of Goa
followed by emotional discussions to, in effect, turn
Goa into an authoritarian separatist Marxist state,
run by a small cabal of all-knowing and well-meaning
Goanetters and Goan musicians, but no attempt at any
sensible solution [except from me:-))]?
Bored with the "serious" discussions about religion
and politics?, and finally,
Bored with the stimulating discussion on the
difference between illegal Ponzi schemes and legal
MLMs some with questionable business practices?
On second thought, let's get back to your first
question shown above:-))
But wait. Who would address the question? As you
well know, the Goanet Admin are busy with other
priorities:-))
Carvalho
2008-05-09 08:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
But wait. Who would address the question? As you
well know, the Goanet Admin are busy with other
priorities:-))
------------------------------------------

Dear Mario,
I suspect this discussion will not go beyond you and
I, but I thought I'd give voice to several goanetters
who have candidly admitted in private that they are
bored with Goanet.

We have Rajan Parriker doing a V. S. Naipul on us
everyday wanting to save Goa, we have Clinton trying
to save frogs, some NGO trying to save dogs, a couple
of spurious and doctored articles about the
Inquisition or conversions, and a couple of
obituaries. That's Goanet in a nutshel these days.

The moderators seem to cull everything remotely OFF
TOPIC or sexually explicit (as if the average
readership is eight years old), politically incorrect
or irrelevant to Goa. Goanet has become devoid of all
its former wit, humour and profundity.

Infact I've grown so bored that I've started
responding to posts about gall-stones. Still, I
suppose there is hope. Gillian has just told us that
all Goan women are generally found discussing Darwin's
theory of evolution interspersed with notes here and
there about the latest rachad recipe. So I await with
bated breath for the arrival of these women on Goanet
to spice things up.

Selma


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Roland Francis
2008-05-09 22:55:27 UTC
Permalink
I agree with Selma's opinion.

When I started reading and writing on Goanet two to three years ago,
there were almost no posts that I skipped. Admittedly some were
boring, though not to death Even Albert D'Souza of Saligao and Mapuca
did show a little improvement when he was being needled.

These past months I have on introspection realized that I delete more
than 75% of the posts that I come across on a daily basis.

Looking at the latest bunch of posts received today, how could the
following conceivably interest me as an overseas Goan:

Accidents on the rise in Merces (and are they going down in the rest of Goa)
Invitation to participate in Youth Conference (privately send to Clinton Vaz)
Two new uploads on MAND blog (are we going to be told about downloads as well)
Mama Cool party at Clube Gaspar Dias (Mama Africa would interest me more)
Educomp launches MagiKeys at Goa IT conclave. (Inform the Vatican, it
might be of use at their next conclave)

Oh my, oh my, the excitement needs to be ramped up more than a little.
Even Mario Goveia has been tamed.

Roland.
Post by Carvalho
Dear Mario,
We have Rajan Parriker doing a V. S. Naipul on us
everyday wanting to save Goa, we have Clinton trying
to save frogs, some NGO trying to save dogs, a couple
of spurious and doctored articles about the
Inquisition or conversions, and a couple of
obituaries. That's Goanet in a nutshel these days.
Roland Francis
2008-05-09 22:55:27 UTC
Permalink
I agree with Selma's opinion.

When I started reading and writing on Goanet two to three years ago,
there were almost no posts that I skipped. Admittedly some were
boring, though not to death Even Albert D'Souza of Saligao and Mapuca
did show a little improvement when he was being needled.

These past months I have on introspection realized that I delete more
than 75% of the posts that I come across on a daily basis.

Looking at the latest bunch of posts received today, how could the
following conceivably interest me as an overseas Goan:

Accidents on the rise in Merces (and are they going down in the rest of Goa)
Invitation to participate in Youth Conference (privately send to Clinton Vaz)
Two new uploads on MAND blog (are we going to be told about downloads as well)
Mama Cool party at Clube Gaspar Dias (Mama Africa would interest me more)
Educomp launches MagiKeys at Goa IT conclave. (Inform the Vatican, it
might be of use at their next conclave)

Oh my, oh my, the excitement needs to be ramped up more than a little.
Even Mario Goveia has been tamed.

Roland.
Post by Carvalho
Dear Mario,
We have Rajan Parriker doing a V. S. Naipul on us
everyday wanting to save Goa, we have Clinton trying
to save frogs, some NGO trying to save dogs, a couple
of spurious and doctored articles about the
Inquisition or conversions, and a couple of
obituaries. That's Goanet in a nutshel these days.
Roland Francis
2008-05-09 22:55:27 UTC
Permalink
I agree with Selma's opinion.

When I started reading and writing on Goanet two to three years ago,
there were almost no posts that I skipped. Admittedly some were
boring, though not to death Even Albert D'Souza of Saligao and Mapuca
did show a little improvement when he was being needled.

These past months I have on introspection realized that I delete more
than 75% of the posts that I come across on a daily basis.

Looking at the latest bunch of posts received today, how could the
following conceivably interest me as an overseas Goan:

Accidents on the rise in Merces (and are they going down in the rest of Goa)
Invitation to participate in Youth Conference (privately send to Clinton Vaz)
Two new uploads on MAND blog (are we going to be told about downloads as well)
Mama Cool party at Clube Gaspar Dias (Mama Africa would interest me more)
Educomp launches MagiKeys at Goa IT conclave. (Inform the Vatican, it
might be of use at their next conclave)

Oh my, oh my, the excitement needs to be ramped up more than a little.
Even Mario Goveia has been tamed.

Roland.
Post by Carvalho
Dear Mario,
We have Rajan Parriker doing a V. S. Naipul on us
everyday wanting to save Goa, we have Clinton trying
to save frogs, some NGO trying to save dogs, a couple
of spurious and doctored articles about the
Inquisition or conversions, and a couple of
obituaries. That's Goanet in a nutshel these days.
JOHN MONTEIRO
2008-05-09 09:59:06 UTC
Permalink
We either need more of what is happening in Goa today, yesterday and as recently as over the past few years.............surely more happens than is permitted to be shown on Goanet, or we need to plead with the moderators to give a little more scope, not so many postings labelled as "inappropriate" or are the sensitivities of the adult moderators so that we cannot gauge what IS appropriate for us to read?

If there is a cuss word or two, or if the poster has been racialist or sexist beyond acceptance, perhaps a form of censorship may be the way forward but I have had several posts not accepted by Goanet when I really could not see where I had offended anyone, other than it was perceived as possibly offensive, but is that not just what people do in conversations, some subjects are taboo (or are they?), so they are not permitted beyond just mentioning them, but no details can be gone into.

Some subjects do get to be a bit long in the tooth,but that is probably up to Goanetters to say so. For instance if a subject has been done to death for over a month, or two months, or if it goes on longer than there must be someone who is interested in posting further on the subject. If we have new subscribers, they may well bring up the subject again, as did I several times when first joining but was not aware of the archives ........ some more than 2 to 5 years old, since then many more people have joined but the subjects may not be mentioned again, because it was done to death a year or so ago.

But why cant we repeat some advice to the newcomers or allow the newcomers to bring forth a fresh look on an old subject, then the older Goanetters can give sage advice.

In the meantime, I will only be taking note of recipes only, unless there are any fresh subjects or old subjects with 21 century resolutions to them..............

Having said this, perhaps I may well visit other sites of interest to me, for Goans & people of non-PIO but are interested in all things Goan. I may be enlightened further. Its a shame that I feel there is 'no point' anymore in reading any of the posts, I delete 90% these days, when a year ago I read every post, then 6 months ago started reading only my "top 10" posters or if there was a newcomer / disguised former reject from Goanet or anyone other than the usual posters, I now have only a "Top 5"........... the others are no longer interesting for me, its the same old, same old............ having culled 5 of the "Top 5", there is very little now for me to do other than find something else, what is happening with Goans in the UK / Canada / USA / other "western countries"............ why / who / when / etc is also of interest to me.

The Gulf Goans have their sites where their interests lie........ either with Goans back home or their own segregated life-style, not wanting to participate with the rest of the world. Goa has had a very bad press lately, not just in rapes, drugs, murder etc, this has been going on for decades but it took one courageous mother to make the whole world sit up, watch and listen.

How about these recipes then? Looking forward to trying them out. I have a good mind to send in recipes myself to spice up the humdrum lives of our admin staff

John Monteiro
-------------------------------------------
But wait. Who would address the question? As you well know, the Goanet Admin are busy with other priorities:-))
------------------------------------------

Dear Mario, I suspect this discussion will not go beyond you and I, but I thought I'd give voice to several goanetters who have candidly admitted in private that they are bored with Goanet.

The moderators seem to cull everything remotely OFF TOPIC or sexually explicit (as if the average readership is eight years old), politically incorrect or irrelevant to Goa. Goanet has become devoid of all its former wit, humour and profundit...........So I await with
bated breath for the arrival of these women on Goanet to spice things up.....Selma
---------------------------------------
CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-05-09 13:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi John
Arising from your substantial introspective post below
(but now necessarily truncated) I believe that:

a) clarification ought to be provided to the 9000+
membership of Goanet, about the membership of the
Goanet Admin team or any other management team that
presumably exists for Goanet to function effectively.

b) identification by name of such a team(s) so that
the membership can know who has responsibility for
different functions, and especially, who can act on
recent constructive criticism about Goanet and
particularly its moderation.

c) next, publicity on the public forum should be made
available for consideration of constructive
suggestions from the Goanet membership with the main
aim of co-operatively helping to make improvements to
Goanet at this particular juncture even if this make
take some time to implement satisfactorily.

d) there is absolutely no ill-will in wanting to see
improvements in the functioning of our much esteemed
Goanet.
Cornel DaCosta
Post by JOHN MONTEIRO
We either need more of what is happening in Goa
today, yesterday and as recently as over the past
few years...surely more happens than is
permitted to be shown on Goanet, or we need to plead
with the moderators to give a little more scope, not
so many postings labelled as "inappropriate" ...
I have had several posts not accepted by Goanet
when I really could not see where I had offended
anyone, other than it was perceived as possibly
offensive, but is that not just what people do in
conversations, some subjects are taboo (or are
they?), so they are not permitted beyond just
mentioning them, but no details can be gone into.
If we have new subscribers, they may well bring up
the subject again, as did I several times when first
Post by JOHN MONTEIRO
joining but was not aware of the archives ...
some more than 2 to 5 years old...
But why cant we repeat some advice to the
newcomers or allow the newcomers to bring forth a
fresh look on an old subject, then the older
Goanetters can give sage advice.
Arwin Mesquita
2008-05-09 23:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Mario

Its easy to criticise Rajan and others working on solutions for Goa & Goans;
he is clearly spending his valuable time. Can I request that you focus
on solutions which would benefit Goa & Goans?

Arwin
Carvalho
2008-05-10 07:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Francis
When I started reading and writing on Goanet two to
three years ago,
there were almost no posts that I skipped.
------------------------------------------
Dear Roland,

I must admit I had a good laugh reading your post.
Surely, we need more humour on Goanet.

The other title for this subject line is, "how to
increase diaspora Goanetter's perspective about Goa".
The span of two to three years that we have been
posting marks a period of an accelerated downward
slide in Goa. There is this feeling of hopelessness,
being bended at the knees by builder lobbies,
over-wrought by an influx of people and a complete
breakdown in trust between people and the polity.

Perhaps it's a time of tremendous upheaval but also of
growth for Goa, one that is essential for a stronger
democracy to emerge. The fact is that Goan diaspora
have little understanding of what is going on in Goa
at the moment.

Take for instance Mario's suggestions. They are
certainly solid suggestions from a western democracy
point of view. I agree with a lot he has to say and I
myself have thought along similar lines, but to what
extent you can transfer those suggestions to the
ground realities that exist in Goa is questionable.

Of late, I have stopped having an opinion about Goa.
So removed are we from what is happening that our
opinions seem superfluous, facile, banal, irrelevant
and at times can only be construed as insolent.

So how much diaspora Goans can genuinely contribute to
this forum remains the big question.

selma


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Gilbert Lawrence
2008-05-10 13:19:32 UTC
Permalink
There is much to write about Goa and what could help Goans either in Goa or in the Diaspora.?
The Goanet writers, especially the voracious ones, who?appear?now to be?a bit tired and bored should consider the following, which has been modified. The modifications are in parenthesis.
Regards, GL
?
The Socrates Triple Filter Test
In ancient Greece , Socrates was reputed to hold knowledge in high esteem.

One day an acquaintance met the great philosopher and said, "Do you know what I just heard about your friend?"?
"Hold on a minute," Socrates replied. "Before telling me (writing) anything, I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called? the Triple Filter Test."
?
"Triple filter?"
?
"That's right," Socrates continued. "Before you talk to me (write) about my friend, (any situation) it might be a good idea to take a moment and filter what you're going to say. That's why I call it the triple filter test."
?
"The first filter is TRUTH. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?"
"No," the man said, "actually I just heard about it and..."
?
'All right," said Socrates. "So you don't really know if it's true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of GOODNESS. Is what you are about to tell me about my friend (situation) something good?"
?
"No, on the contrary..."
?
"So," Socrates continued, "you want to tell me (write) something bad about him, (the situation) but you're not certain it's true. You may still pass the test though, because there's one filter left: the filter of USEFULNESS. Is what you want to tell me (write) about my friend (the Goan situation) going to be useful to me?"
?
"No, not really."

"Well," concluded Socrates, "if what you want to tell me (write) is neither true nor good nor even useful, why tell it to me at all?"
Friends, use this triple filter each time you hear loose talk about (from)?any of your near & dear friends.?
?---------- Carvalho wrote
Of late, I have stopped having an opinion about Goa.? So removed are we from what is happening that our opinions seem superfluous, facile, banal, irrelevant and at times can only be construed as insolent.

So how much diaspora Goans can genuinely contribute to this forum remains the big question.
When I started reading and writing on Goanet two to?three years ago,?there were almost no posts that I skipped.
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Mario Goveia
2008-05-10 17:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 03:49:57 +0400
From: "Arwin Mesquita" <arwinmesquita at gmail.com>
Its easy to criticise Rajan and others working on
solutions for Goa & Goans;
Mario responds:
Did you miss the fact that I have praised Rajan on
several occasions for graphically showing us the
problem? However, I must admit it was easy to
criticise his solutions and similar solutions being
offered by others, which have no chance of prevailing
within the realities that exist in Goa.
Arwin wrote:
Can I request that you focus on solutions which would
benefit Goa & Goans?
Mario responds:
Sure you can, Arwin, but I'm not sure why you are
requesting what I have already provided. However, if
your understanding of what I write is the same as your
understanding of the difference between a state within
a country and a country, you will certainly miss the
fact that I am the only one on Goanet who has a
practical and workable solution on the table and have
had one since the following post. In the meantime
Santosh and others have demolished your side of the
argument under a torrent of sarcasm:
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-April/072036.html
Once you grasp the difference between Goa and another
country, perhaps you will begin to understand that I
am a generation ahead of you and that the goal of my
practical solutions is a balance between development
and local control over the local environment and a
win-win situation for everyone, not just an ongoing
power struggle between the haves and the have-nots
that leads to a lot of heat but no light.
Mario Goveia
2008-05-10 18:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 18:55:27 -0400
From: "Roland Francis" <roland.francis at gmail.com>
Accidents on the rise in Merces (and are they going
down in the rest of Goa)
Invitation to participate in Youth Conference
(privately send to Clinton Vaz)
Two new uploads on MAND blog (are we going to be told
about downloads as well)
Mama Cool party at Clube Gaspar Dias (Mama Africa
would interest me more)
Educomp launches MagiKeys at Goa IT conclave. (Inform
the Vatican, it might be of use at their next
conclave)
Oh my, oh my, the excitement needs to be ramped up
more than a little. Even Mario Goveia has been tamed.
Mario responds, obviously untamed:-))
Not so fast, Roland.
As someone who has earned the ire of Goa-centric
Goanetters far longer than you and Selma might for
suggesting an expansion of Goanet's perspective, I
must ask you to show some more respect for what our
Goanetter sisters and brothers around the world would
like to say on Goanet.
Don't you understand the concept of a "cyber-forum",
which is what Goanet is, only with an emphasis on Goa?
A forum is the ultimate in free speech - enlightened
or cow cakes depending on your individual point of
view or mood du jour.
Imagine a real forum in one of the Panjim gardens with
groups engaged in discussions all around you. You
stroll around and hear about the accidents in Merces
being on the rise. If you have any sense you would
learn to be more careful the next time you pass
through Merces. You wonder whether a MAND blog is
something you step over on the pavement and hear about
Clinton's conference and wonder if you should attend
or not. You decide you're too old for a Youth
Conference:-)) The next time Ethel is in Africa you
might well get a report on Mama Africa and the local
Goans who were in attendance. You obviously have no
idea what a cool place Clube Gaspar Dias is. Your
days to attend a MagiKeys conference are probably long
gone, but your kids may be interested.
You certainly can post your own series of boring
reports - for the rest of us, we won't object - on the
Goan conference that will soon take place in Toronto,
or any other news that may have some relevance to
Goans, but certainly not the Irish or West Indies
Festival down the road from you.
From my knowledge of Toronto, one could have a Goan
forum just for that area, that is if you guys can
overlook for one moment your internecine revalries
between African Goans and Pakistani Goans and Gulf
Goans and every garden variety of Goan who all pretend
they are superior to each other as well as the real
thing, which is Indian Goans. Is that tame enough for
you?:-))
The point is that no one is forced to join in any of
the discussions going on. You listen, you join or you
move on.
You may stay awhile to explain to Arwin and Jane what
the difference is between Goa and the USA, then move
on to assure Rajan and Floriano that we would be glad
to elect them President and Vice President the minute
Goa separates from India, and Arwin as Minister of
Migrant Affairs, then take Mervyn aside and ask him
what he has against Goa that he would like them to
become like N. Korea, Cuba and Zimbabwe, then stroll
on to explain to Gabe that you are making a bundle by
shopping in Buffalo, the prices are a steal right now,
and have noticed that the US is not yet going to hell
in a handbasket economically, not even in a recession
yet, but close, and how they LOVE their Canadian
customers, ...er, neighbors, then join Gilbert in
passionate discussion with Cornel about the wisdom or
lack thereof of maintaing what is a mythical "Goan
identity" in the diaspora.
Stay away from Kevin - he will either convert you or
turn you into a vegan now that the UN has given him a
boatload of new ammunition:-))
If there is nothing of interst going on, you join
Cecil and me in the nearest cyber-tavern for a brew -
he with a tall Feni, I with a Bud because I'm already
out of the Feni I brought less than three months ago,
and you with a bottle of Molson Light:-))
That's how a REAL forum of your fellow men and women
works - it is what it is, and you make of it what you
can.
Santosh Helekar
2008-05-11 07:10:28 UTC
Permalink
In the meantime Santosh and others have demolished
I have merely taken the impractical and misguided
notions of insulating Goa from outsiders and
preserving the myth of a unique Goan identity, to
their logical conclusion. In this respect, my
contention is two-fold:
1. The real solution to the problem of indiscriminate
use and misuse of land does not require us to militate
against non-Goans.

2. There is no basis for a single homogeneous Goan
identity that can be or needs to be preserved. The
identity of each Goan social group, which there are a
legion, differs significantly based on religion,
caste, subcaste, taluka, village and vaddo. Rajan's
cultural identity is not the same as that of Romlo or
Remo. My neighbors in Chimbel speak four different
dialects of Konknni, and have as many distinct sets of
rites and mores.

What needs to be preserved and promoted, therefore, is
our language, literature, art, music and the wholesome
traditions and cultural practices of all the
multifarious Goan communities. At the same time we
need to weed out harmful elements of our culture,
along with xenophobic and intolerant attitudes.

My personal experience has been that non-Goans who
permanently settle in Goa can do all of this as well
as any native Goan, let alone a theatrical Goan
cyber-chauvinist.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mario Goveia
2008-05-11 22:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:41:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Take for instance Mario's suggestions. They are
certainly solid suggestions from a western democracy
point of view. I agree with a lot he has to say and I
myself have thought along similar lines, but to what
extent you can transfer those suggestions to the
ground realities that exist in Goa is questionable.
Mario asks:
Selmabai,
So, what are you saying? That the enlightened western
democracies are "solid" in their approach while the
hapless Goans are not? The answer is, if they are
not, perhaps it is high time they moved in that
direction, before it's too late.
According to you and Chris, a system that has worked
well in all the civilized democratic societies in the
world in balancing the interests of local environments
and citizens with economic developers will not work in
democratic Goa due to the "ground realities". Even
though it has never been tried and it now takes
wasteful economic activity by developers followed by
mass public protests to get anything done or undone in
Goa?
Are you suggesting that these "ground realities"
include stupidity? I have been assuming a higher
level of intelligence and self-interest than you
apparently are assuming.
Selma writes:
Of late, I have stopped having an opinion about Goa.
So removed are we from what is happening that our
opinions seem superfluous, facile, banal, irrelevant
and at times can only be construed as insolent.
Mario responds:
So, behind the beautiful big words, aren't you really
saying "let's run and hide our heads in the sand"?
Let's not give them ideas we know of, of provable
solutions that have worked everywhere else, that they
haven't yet tried, because the "ground reality" is
that they are too stupid or lazy?
Selma writes:
So how much diaspora Goans can genuinely contribute to
this forum remains the big question.
Mario responds:
It all depends on the contribution, doesn't it?
"There are no simple solutions. Only intelligent
choices." - Caterpillar Tractor Company.
Carvalho
2008-05-12 07:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
"There are no simple solutions. Only intelligent
choices." - Caterpillar Tractor Company.
--------------------------------------
Coincidentally my father worked for Caterpillar for
some 30 odd years. In those days in the Gulf, there
certainly weren't any simple solutions, just choices
to be made, mostly out of necessity than anything
else.

But enough about me :-)
Like I said the solutions you propose are solid but
western democracies are premised on certain things,
like:

a) A robust state education system which allows some
measure of an equitable playing field.
b) The bell of the population being middle-class.
c) Respect for the rule of law.

Not that I want to give undue credit to the West, for
they've had five hundred years to develop these
institutions amply aided by the wealth they hauled
from their colonies. Goa on the other hand, has been
under colonial rule for the past 500 years with little
to no experience in managing a democracy. Democracies
don't exist in a vacuum, they are held together
precariously by its institutions, and colonial powers
did very little to put these in place.

Ofcourse one can talk about the free hand of
capitalism making intelligent decisions, but
capitalism's free hand is rather like a Pathan's free
hand in a crowded Arabian fish market. It doesn't know
its boundaries unless guided by the law and
unfortunately the law is non-existent in Goa at the
moment.

Goa is undergoing a very important and almost
inescapable lesson in democracy. That the peasants
will hold the monarch accountable for his actions.
Once the powers that be learn this lesson, things take
a dramatic turn for the better. I believe the upheaval
taking place in Goa today will create the very basis
of democracy.

selma


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Gabe Menezes
2008-05-12 12:04:16 UTC
Permalink
2008/5/12 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>:
....................... but
Post by Carvalho
capitalism's free hand is rather like a Pathan's free
hand in a crowded Arabian fish market. It doesn't know
its boundaries unless guided by the law and
unfortunately the law is non-existent in Goa at the
moment.
COMMENT: Was in Jeddah and Riyadh, total just over 7 years. These
things just don't happen in Saudi; now in Dubai, it seems all is fair
in love & war, or should it read lust and.....

QUESTION: How did you fend it off, or did you just grin and bear it?
(remember many a true word was said in jest)


P.S. The Goan Chaplaincy needs people to attend its function on
Sunday...please call Father and maybe he will waive the excess charge
and give it at the original; after all, at this stage beggars can't be
choosers. The notice says it all!

From G.V. (U.K.):-

URGENT: Tickets available at venue of Goan Chaplaincy Day, London
Sun. 18 May. Goan Chaplaincy Day. Thanksgiving Mass at 1.15 pm
followed by a social get together at Archbishop Lanfranc School Hall,
Mitcham Road, Croydon. CR9 3AS. Music by Rainbow's End. Tickets (inc.
meal): Adult ?15.00; Child ? 7.50. Tickets will be available at the
venue but please contact the Chaplaincy by 15th of May to reserve
tickets in advance to facilitate arrangements. Tel. 020 8665 2176 or
email goanchaplaincy at yahoo.co.uk Please ask your friends to alert
their contacts.
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2008-05-12 12:04:16 UTC
Permalink
2008/5/12 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>:
....................... but
Post by Carvalho
capitalism's free hand is rather like a Pathan's free
hand in a crowded Arabian fish market. It doesn't know
its boundaries unless guided by the law and
unfortunately the law is non-existent in Goa at the
moment.
COMMENT: Was in Jeddah and Riyadh, total just over 7 years. These
things just don't happen in Saudi; now in Dubai, it seems all is fair
in love & war, or should it read lust and.....

QUESTION: How did you fend it off, or did you just grin and bear it?
(remember many a true word was said in jest)


P.S. The Goan Chaplaincy needs people to attend its function on
Sunday...please call Father and maybe he will waive the excess charge
and give it at the original; after all, at this stage beggars can't be
choosers. The notice says it all!

From G.V. (U.K.):-

URGENT: Tickets available at venue of Goan Chaplaincy Day, London
Sun. 18 May. Goan Chaplaincy Day. Thanksgiving Mass at 1.15 pm
followed by a social get together at Archbishop Lanfranc School Hall,
Mitcham Road, Croydon. CR9 3AS. Music by Rainbow's End. Tickets (inc.
meal): Adult ?15.00; Child ? 7.50. Tickets will be available at the
venue but please contact the Chaplaincy by 15th of May to reserve
tickets in advance to facilitate arrangements. Tel. 020 8665 2176 or
email goanchaplaincy at yahoo.co.uk Please ask your friends to alert
their contacts.
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2008-05-12 12:04:16 UTC
Permalink
2008/5/12 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>:
....................... but
Post by Carvalho
capitalism's free hand is rather like a Pathan's free
hand in a crowded Arabian fish market. It doesn't know
its boundaries unless guided by the law and
unfortunately the law is non-existent in Goa at the
moment.
COMMENT: Was in Jeddah and Riyadh, total just over 7 years. These
things just don't happen in Saudi; now in Dubai, it seems all is fair
in love & war, or should it read lust and.....

QUESTION: How did you fend it off, or did you just grin and bear it?
(remember many a true word was said in jest)


P.S. The Goan Chaplaincy needs people to attend its function on
Sunday...please call Father and maybe he will waive the excess charge
and give it at the original; after all, at this stage beggars can't be
choosers. The notice says it all!

From G.V. (U.K.):-

URGENT: Tickets available at venue of Goan Chaplaincy Day, London
Sun. 18 May. Goan Chaplaincy Day. Thanksgiving Mass at 1.15 pm
followed by a social get together at Archbishop Lanfranc School Hall,
Mitcham Road, Croydon. CR9 3AS. Music by Rainbow's End. Tickets (inc.
meal): Adult ?15.00; Child ? 7.50. Tickets will be available at the
venue but please contact the Chaplaincy by 15th of May to reserve
tickets in advance to facilitate arrangements. Tel. 020 8665 2176 or
email goanchaplaincy at yahoo.co.uk Please ask your friends to alert
their contacts.
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Mario Goveia
2008-05-12 15:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 00:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Not that I want to give undue credit to the West, for
they've had five hundred years to develop these
institutions amply aided by the wealth they hauled
from their colonies.
Mario responds:
Why not give credit where credit is due? So what if
"the west" took five hundred years to develop their
systems? That means we could SAVE five hundred years
by copying their systems instead of either
re-inventing the wheel or the nutty unworkable ideas
that so many on Goanet are wasting their time on.
Does anyone with more than half a brain on this forum
think they are going to STOP development in Goa, or
impose authoritarian separatist Marxist solutions
which will only work successfully if we make Floriano
and Rajan President and Vice President, and not
someone like my neighbor Babush?
Selma writes:
Goa on the other hand, has been under colonial rule
for the past 500 years with little to no experience in
managing a democracy. Democracies don't exist in a
vacuum, they are held together precariously by its
institutions, and colonial powers did very little to
put these in place.
Mario responds:
What a sad, pathetic ex-colonial excuse which also
makes no sense. Goa has had 47 years now of
uninterrupted democracy which is enough time to copy
all the sensible policies that the west took five
hundred years to develop. If we could catch up and
even surpass the west in many fields of engineering,
which is far more difficult, then certainly we could
have done this in civil administration.
If Indian engineers can use their brains, why can't
everyone else?
Selma wrote:
Of course one can talk about the free hand of
capitalism making intelligent decisions, but
capitalism's free hand is rather like a Pathan's free
hand in a crowded Arabian fish market. It doesn't know
its boundaries unless guided by the law and
unfortunately the law is non-existent in Goa at the
moment.
Mario responds:
Selma, wake up, it is morning on Goanet:-)) What have
you been reading? Soon Fr. Ivo will be telling you
that you are understanding "EXACTLY THE CONTRARY" of
what I have been writing. And this time he will be
right.
Your prattling on about untrammeled capitalism and
Pathans in fish markets shows you have not understood
a word about what I have been recommending or the
zoning laws I have been describing.
Wait a minute. How did a Pathan find his way to an
Arabian fish market? But I digress.
Aye, aye, aye! Yes, zoning laws are non-existent in
Goa, WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT. They need to be passed
across Goa, at the Panchayat and Gram Sabha level.
Authoritarian separatist Marxist rule is also
non-existent in Goa, but I don't see you objecting to
the emotional, frustrated calls for that kind of
nonsense.
Which do you think is a) easier to implement in Goa,
and b) more likely to work?
Selma wrote:
Goa is undergoing a very important and almost
inescapable lesson in democracy. That the peasants
will hold the monarch accountable for his actions.
Once the powers that be learn this lesson, things take
a dramatic turn for the better. I believe the upheaval
taking place in Goa today will create the very basis
of democracy.
Mario responds:
Knock! Knock! Hello! Anyone home?:-))
The upheaval going on in Goa is moving in "EXACTLY THE
CONTRARY" direction: massive, wasteful, emotional
civil protests to STOP development. They have no
choice right now but to STOP development BECAUSE THERE
IS NO FRAMEWORK FOR CONTROLLING AND RATIONALIZING
DEVELOPMENT.
Every project is a huge power struggle with winners
and losers. Mostly the citizens are losing as we can
see from Rajan's pictures. No one is thinking in the
direction of a routine process that is a win-win
situation for everyone without needless wasteful
activity by both developers and citizens.
WHICH IS WHAT ZONING LAWS ARE ALL ABOUT.
Carvalho
2008-05-13 10:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Authoritarian separatist Marxist rule is also
non-existent in Goa, but I don't see you objecting
to
the emotional, frustrated calls for that kind of
nonsense.
-------------------------------

Dear Mario,
I'll leave you to prattle on about zoning laws in Goa.
Obviously you are unaware that hundreds of laws exist
in India and in Goa, but the problem is none of these
are adhered.

Now, coming you your assertion that I am in tacit
approval of a Marxist, separatist state, obviously you
have not been reading my posts or preferring not to
understand the content of them. I have never embraced
Marxist ideology nor called for the seceding of Goa. I
am a Nehruvian nationalist.

Secondly I have never been what is popularly refered
to in Goa as "anti-development". While you were away,
it was just Philip Thomas and me, keeping the
capatilist voice alive. The "anti-development" stance
is extremely short-sighted and misguided.

For instance, Panjim had a good opportunity to convert
one of the older medical building into a shopping
arcade. Due to the misguided sentiments of some Goan
doctors, this project was impaled in the heart and
discarded. Well, you and I both know that the
conservation of heritage building in the West, is
dependent almost entirely on shopping arcades, hotels,
bars and restaurants or antique galleries taking them
on, restoring them, preserving aspects of their
architecture (usually the facade) and remodeling the
rest to operate as commercial ventures.

Goans have to compromise, they have to recognise what
is a true investment opportunity and what is not. I
don't want to be insolent enough to suggest what is
best for Goa, but I do agree with you that from an
outsider's perspective, the "anti-development"
backlash that is going on, will be absolutely be
detrimental to Goa in the long term.

selma
Mario Goveia
2008-05-13 15:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 03:00:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Obviously you are unaware that hundreds of laws exist
in India and in Goa, but the problem is none of these
are adhered.
Mario responds:
I'm not sure whom you think you are helping with yet
another dismissive statement which falsely suggests
that there are anything like zoning laws in Goa.
Selma wrote:
Now, coming you your assertion that I am in tacit
approval of a Marxist, separatist state, obviously you
have not been reading my posts or preferring not to
understand the content of them. I have never embraced
Marxist ideology nor called for the seceding of Goa. I
am a Nehruvian nationalist.
Mario responds:
Nehru should have stopped at being a nationalist. If
he had turned right instead of left in 1947, as Japan
did after WW-II, India would have been a superpower by
now.
I never said you were a closet Marxist - I simply said
that I did not see from you any strenuous objections
to the suggestions for authoritarian separatist
Marxist policies in Goa - at the same time you were
dismissing the policies that have worked well in every
developed country to control economic development. I
see you seem to have finally woken up to that fact.
Selma wrote:
Secondly I have never been what is popularly refered
to in Goa as "anti-development".
Mario responds:
Making dismissive comments about the west being
"solid" and western zoning policies being unlikely to
work in Goa due to "ground realities" is a strange way
to show that you are pro-rational-development.
Without the kinds of rational zoning laws I am
proposing the local Goans have no alternative but to
OBSTRUCT development, and, based on Gadgil's reporting
they are finally beginning to make some headway.
Selma wrote:
Goans have to compromise, they have to recognise what
is a true investment opportunity and what is not.
Mario responds:
There is too much money to be made in Goa right now
for the developers to be "rational". They are in the
business of making money, not in the business of being
"rational". The ugly results are there for everyone
to see through the lens of Rajan Parrikar.
Only the local residents through their Panchayats and
Gram Sabhas can turn things around - the politicians
at the upper levels cannot be relied upon to lead the
charge - though they should be doing so.
Tell all your friends in Goa to go see Rajan's exhibit
in Panjim next week, The Rape of Goa - it may open
their eyes and their brains.
Carvalho
2008-05-13 17:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
There is too much money to be made in Goa right now
for the developers to be "rational". They are in
the
business of making money, not in the business of
being
"rational". The ugly results are there for everyone
to see through the lens of Rajan Parrikar.
-------------------------------

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. On
the one hand you seem to be chastising Rajan for
obstructing Builders and on the other hand you want me
and my friends to go to his show and peer through his
lenses.

I shall leave you to debate with yourself, complete
with diagrams, slide presentation and megaphone. I'm
sure you will single-handedly save Goa from the
Builders by instituting zoning laws, right after you
have abolished the caste system amongst Goan
Catholics.

Good luck and God speed,
selma
Mario Goveia
2008-05-13 21:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
There is too much money to be made in Goa right now
for the developers to be "rational". They are in
the business of making money, not in the business of
being "rational". The ugly results are there for
everyone to see through the lens of Rajan Parrikar.
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:01:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
Mario responds:
Very simple - if you follow the entire discussion
without being distracted.
I was responding to what you said, "Goans have to
compromise, they have to recognise what is a true
investment opportunity and what is not."
"Goans" have to compromise? "Goans" have to
recognize? Who are you talking about? Are Goans a
monolith? There are all kinds of Goans with all kinds
of interests, and those who are responsible for the
blight, the developers, have little incentive to be
responsible and a lot of incentive to make money now
that Goa is "hot".
Which is why Goa needs local zoning laws to maintain
control and balance, which they don't have right now.
Selma writes:
On the one hand you seem to be chastising Rajan for
obstructing Builders and on the other hand you want me
and my friends to go to his show and peer through his
lenses.
Mario responds:
See if you can follow this - you may have to read
s-l-o-w-l-y:-))
I praised Rajan for doing a yeoman's job of exposing
the rape of Goa and told everyone I know in Goa to go
see his exhibition next week. If you haven't done so
yet, there is still time. The same goes for others
who have friends in Goa. Don't assume they will hear
about it locally.
I criticized him for his specific obstructionist
proposals which have a snowball's chance in hell of
being implemented. Yet, because I don't like to see
Goa defaced any more than Rajan does, I also opined
that he and other activists have no choice right now
because they have no legal way to control the blight.
They can only stop the mayhem by obstructing it. Thus
in every project, someone wins and someone loses and
mountains of evergy are wasted.
WHICH IS WHY ZONING LAWS ARE NEEDED, so that managed
development can proceed in an orderly fashion without
obstructing development in the long run, thus
providing a win-win situation for everyone. Q.E.D.
If I lived in Goa I would join in stopping these ugly
projects, but simultaneously be pushing for zoning
laws that the builders would have to comply with to
get their projects re-instated.
Please let me know if this is too complicated and I
will write more s-l-o-w-l-y:-))
Selma wrote:
I shall leave you to debate with yourself.....
Mario responds:
That would be a Titanic debate, for sure, with
scintillating repartee and brilliant points being made
on both sides, without having to worry about those who
can't keep up:-))
Selma wrote:
I'm sure you will single-handedly save Goa from the
Builders by instituting zoning laws, right after you
have abolished the caste system amongst Goan
Catholics.
Mario responds:
If I don't it will not be because I didn't try.
You must have noticed that we have not heard a peep
out of the caste supporters recently. I have
confidence that most Goans of goodwill who followed
the caste debate will be more sensitive the next time
they are faced with a decision in which caste may have
previously played a role, and, remembering something
we said here, will refuse to let it play a role this
time. That is how you slowly choke a 450 year old
atrocity to death, one Goan at a time making one
decision at a time, refusing to discriminate on the
basis of an accident of birth.
If they do not institute zoning laws in Goa little is
going to change. Those with the power - either money
power or people power - will win some and lose some
with those with money power winning most of the
battles. Development will be uneven.
Years from now Rajan will need a football stadium to
fit in all his pictures.
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-05-14 01:03:54 UTC
Permalink
In my e-mail box was a post that perhaps may answer the following dilemma.
?
--------------?Carvalho

Take for instance Mario's suggestions. They are certainly solid suggestions from a western democracy point of view. I agree with a lot he has to say and I myself have thought along similar lines, but to what extent you can transfer those suggestions to the ground realities that exist in Goa is questionable.
Of late, I have stopped having an opinion about Goa. So removed are we from what is happening that our opinions seem superfluous, facile, banal, irrelevant and at times can only be construed as insolent.

?
-----------?Mario Goveia
?
Selmabai, So, what are you saying?? That the enlightened western democracies are "solid" in their approach while the hapless Goans are not?? The answer is, if they are not, perhaps it is high time they moved in that direction, before it's too late.? Are you suggesting that these "ground realities" include stupidity?? I have been assuming a higher level of intelligence and self-interest than you apparently are assuming.

?
--------- GL responds with the following post: =))

Where did the White Man go wrong?
The Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official, 'You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done.'

The Chief nodded in agreement.

The official continued, 'Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong? '

The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied. 'When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex.'

Then the chief leaned back and smiled 'Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that.'
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-05-16 02:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Goanet posts should be aimed for a large audience with different backgrounds. Hence the challenge is for the posts?to deal with precise Goan-related issues in a universal way. The writings should gain the attention of the readers not by arguing this side of an issue or that (as we often see), but rather by a thoughtful presentation in full - in all its powerful implications. The immediacy and directness of the message should drive home the author's imaginative thoughts.
?
The reality is many of the issues are of perennial nature. They have been discussed before - again and again and again. Yet?sometimes it may be the same mis-information that is presented again and again and again. While at other times, the original post and the subsequent endless back and forth may just be a?bunch of rants that are grounded in half-truths. Posting vintage material (true or false) may have some therapeutic value on the poster rather than the readers.
?
There are?some posters who are into prosaic writings.? They should share their irresistible power, which makes us, the readers, feel the living force of people eager to examine their destinies with the utmost candor and passion.?By now most of us know the (other) posters; and who?may be a credible (yet often arm-chair) arch-advocate.??However, supurlem Goenkars (like moi) could do without the author being a sesquipedalian - a lover of big words..
?
While I do not encourage self-glorification, I would strongly support Goans presenting their own experiences.? Nothing is more powerful that some theories or philosophies put into practice and yielding results.?More often we see posters presenting advice not followed / practiced by the author. We-all could use role-models that we could emulate, in?our own?small or big environment. This,?rather than?read posts that have the usual hand-wringing and complaining; for which Goans are so famous.
?
Regards, GL
anesimo56
2008-05-05 23:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Dear Goanet Readers

Santosh Helekar wrote>This would not be enough.The following additional prescription would be needed.

The above comments about Rajans?interview is written in bad taste and to denigrate his work.The issue about immigrants is not Rajans fantasy or imagination.This issue is bugging goyenkars big time.They think?it is just a question of time before we have major problems.In Margao there was a law and order situation among the Muslims over a burial. it was between the goans and non-Goans.I was expecting the secular goanetters to blame it on BJP.I beleive this problem is not yet resolved.

Rajan is talking about the rich non-Goans who are destroying our land,environment,pushing the land prices sky high?using ?their black money and encouraging corruption. He is talking about the other migrants who have no business to be goa,and are pitching up huts all over?the public and communidade land, defecating,urinating?and spitting all over the place.?

Goans did not fight OPINION POLL for nothing.Those who were not born at that time or too?young enough to remember,should ask their elders why they wanted Goa a separate entity.Rajan is saying what exactly most goyenkars say and feel. The only thing is, he is too honest, blunt and passionate about Goa.?I call him a niz goyenkar and will fully support any of his initiatives that will help Goa and Goans.?

It amazes me how pride and ego can affects ones rational thinking even to the extend of destroying ones motherland.

Cheers

Dr. Anesimo Fernandes?
________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
Satyawan Govekar
2008-05-06 08:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Dotor Anemiso Fernandes is saying to Santosh bab Helekar that his comments about Rajans?interview is written in bad taste and to denigrate his work.

Dotor bab what you are saying is not correct. I found Santosh bab's comments very funny. Rajan bab is doing a good job but we must identify who are real migrant. Go to Shirgao and see what Dempos (from Karwar), Chowgules (from Belgaum) and Bandekar from Maharashtra have done to the village.

All these bhatkars are actually nonGoan who came and did boot licking of the Portugese and put all land on their name. Goa's land is actually belonging to the tribals like Gawda, Dhangar, Kunbi and Velip. Can you give these people justice?

Who is selling the land of Goa? it is the same bhatkar people who are become builders, miners, newspaper owners and politicians. They are the worst migrant who are pretending to be Goan just because they are upper caste. They are the migrant danger to Goa. But nobody will throw them out.

Satyamev Jayate
Chris Vaz
2008-05-06 12:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Anesimo--

You are right on!

I fully empathize with you re Rajan. A true patriot!

I have also offered (together with a couple of other friends) whatever help
Rajan can use--both moral and financial.

I am very proud to have a fellow Goan like Rajan. When it is the welfare of
Goa, there is no divide among Christians, Muslims and Hindus! We are Goans
first!

Regards
Chris


----- Original Message -----
From: <anesimo56 at aim.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 7:04 PM
Subject: [Goanet] The migrant danger to Goa
Post by anesimo56
Dear Goanet Readers
Santosh Helekar wrote>This would not be enough.The following additional
prescription would be needed.
The above comments about Rajans?interview is written in bad taste and to
denigrate his work.The issue about immigrants is not Rajans fantasy or
imagination.This issue is bugging goyenkars big time.They think?it is just
a question of time before we have major problems.In Margao there was a law
and order situation among the Muslims over a burial. it was between the
goans and non-Goans.I was expecting the secular goanetters to blame it on
BJP.I beleive this problem is not yet resolved.
Rajan is talking about the rich non-Goans who are destroying our
land,environment,pushing the land prices sky high?using ?their black money
and encouraging corruption. He is talking about the other migrants who
have no business to be goa,and are pitching up huts all over?the public
and communidade land, defecating,urinating?and spitting all over the
place.?
Goans did not fight OPINION POLL for nothing.Those who were not born at
that time or too?young enough to remember,should ask their elders why they
wanted Goa a separate entity.Rajan is saying what exactly most goyenkars
say and feel. The only thing is, he is too honest, blunt and passionate
about Goa.?I call him a niz goyenkar and will fully support any of his
initiatives that will help Goa and Goans.?
It amazes me how pride and ego can affects ones rational thinking even to
the extend of destroying ones motherland.
Cheers
Dr. Anesimo Fernandes?
________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at
http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
Santosh Helekar
2008-05-06 13:00:01 UTC
Permalink
The comments quoted below reveal a misguided belief
that all goencars think alike, and that there is only
one xenophobic solution to the problems of Goa. A
little thought and some knowledge of Goan history
should tell us otherwise.

Goencars have varied opinions about what is good for
Goa. Some Goencars want to divorce themselves from
India completely, and become an independent nation.
Others want to ban non-Goans from settling and
purchasing land in Goa, and preserving something
called Goan identity. Some want to simply eliminate
Hindu nationalistic parties such as BJP. But there
still are many who want to join Maharashtra.

My own view like that of a sizable number, I am sure,
is to adopt reasonable solutions within the Indian
constitution, which, as I have said before is:

"obeying the laws, properly enforcing them, reforming
outdated ones and enacting new ones wherever necessary
- laws against corruption, misuse and pillage of land,
destruction of the environment and heritage, social
discrimination and prejudice, and exploitation of the
working class."

As far as my earlier post in this thread is concerned,
to those who want to choose the Goan nationalist or
segregationist option, I have suggested additional
essential steps that they need to take to preserve all
the Goan identities without committing treason. Yes,
there are many Goan identities - a separate identity
for each Hindu caste and outcaste, a separate identity
for each of the major castes of the Catholics, and
another one for the Muslims. I forgot to add the
following additional measure:

o) To divorce Goa completely from India, ban all
Indian nationalist parties such as the Bharatiya
Janata Party.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by anesimo56
The above comments about Rajans?interview is written
in bad taste and to denigrate his work.The issue
about immigrants is not Rajans fantasy or
imagination.This issue is bugging goyenkars big
time.They think?it is just a question of time before
we have major problems.In Margao there was a law and
order situation among the Muslims over a burial. it
was between the goans and non-Goans.I was expecting
the secular goanetters to blame it on BJP.I beleive
this problem is not yet resolved.
Santosh Helekar
2008-05-06 15:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Satyawan is speaking the satya. He reminded me that I
should have added the following prescription to
Rajan's list for serious consideration by Anesimo and
others:

p) Evict all non-Goan bhatkars who have stolen the
land of the original settlers of Goa.

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. BTW, all these prescriptions and many more have
already been adopted by President Pandurang of IRC. I
have asked him to email me his list.
Post by Satyawan Govekar
All these bhatkars are actually nonGoan who came and
did boot licking of the Portugese and put all land
on their name. Goa's land is actually belonging to
the tribals like Gawda, Dhangar, Kunbi and Velip.
Can you give these people justice?
Who is selling the land of Goa? it is the same
bhatkar people who are become builders, miners,
newspaper owners and politicians. They are the worst
migrant who are pretending to be Goan just because
they are upper caste. They are the migrant danger to
Goa. But nobody will throw them out.
anesimo56
2008-05-06 21:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear?Goanet Readers

Santosh Helekar wrote>The comments quoted below reveal a misguided belief that all goencars think alike and that there is only one xenophobic solution to the problem in Goa.?

The craving of Goans to preserve their unique Identity,culture and save Goa from destruction is a reality.The misguided are those ones who live in their own cuckoo?land and has no clue about the ground realities in Goa.Fighting for ones Identity is not called Xenophobia. There is something?called as majority?view and that view has not changed since?Opinion Poll, except that?it is being distorted by?Ani-Goans.??

If some of our Goans are so concerned about the immigrants,then they should help to?improve their deplorable living conditions in shanty towns.Better still,they help improve economic conditions in their own places so that they don't have to migrate.RIGHT NOW,?
THE PRIORITY OF GOYENKARS IS TO SAVE THEIR OWN HOUSE FROM FIRE!?

VIVA GOA,VIVA GOYENKAR

Cheers

Dr. Anesimo Fernandes
Mervyn Lobo
2008-05-06 21:27:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
As far as my earlier post in this thread is concerned,
to those who want to choose the Goan nationalist or
segregationist option, I have suggested additional
essential steps that they need to take to preserve all
the Goan identities without committing treason. Yes,
there are many Goan identities - a separate identity
for each Hindu caste and outcaste, a separate identity
for each of the major castes of the Catholics, and
another one for the Muslims. I
Santosh,
You forgot the non-believers and Goan Marxist identity. You know, the people who blow the fuses of the extreme right wingers here.
Mervyn


__________________________________________________________________
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
Mario Goveia
2008-05-07 15:06:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
As far as my earlier post in this thread is
concerned, to those who want to choose the Goan
nationalist or segregationist option, I have
suggested additional essential steps that they need
to take to preserve all the Goan identities without
committing treason. Yes, there are many Goan
identities - a separate identity for each Hindu
caste and outcaste, a separate identity for each of
the major castes of the Catholics, and another one
for the Muslims. I
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 14:27:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
Santosh,
You forgot the non-believers and Goan Marxist
identity. You know, the people who blow the fuses of
the extreme right wingers here.
Mario wonders:
Which of these identities were being recently
recommended for the Goan diaspora to preserve "like
the Parsis" do?
BTW, the last time I checked, as an extremely
compassionate right winger, all my fuses were intact
and functioning perfectly:-))
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx. A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
"Marx should have started by questioning Marxism".
Mario's adaptation from Marx:-))
Carvalho
2008-05-07 16:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx. A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
-------------------------------
Mario,
Is there a paucity of quotes that we have to be
treated to this Reaganoid gemstone of wisdom, over and
over again :-)

Which brings me to another quote, a fellow
right-winger used in connection with Rajan Parriker
"doing God's work".

Now, I was curious about this phrase and its origin.
It turns out, in 1190, the Jews being relentlessly
persecuted in York, Great Britain, barricaded
themselves at Clifford Tower. Leading the Christian
mob was a hermit, who kept yelling to the Christians
"you are doing God's work". One of the Jews, threw a
stone from the tower which unfortunately landed on the
hermit and killed him. This enflamed the mob even
more. The Jews inside growing desperate committed mass
suicide. Those that chose to leave the tower was
massacred by the Christian mob.

Moral of the story: We have to be careful when doing
God's work in Goa.

selma


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Mervyn Lobo
2008-05-08 03:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
BTW, the last time I checked, as an extremely
compassionate right winger, all my fuses were intact
and functioning perfectly:-))
?

?
Mario,
Self examination is always the best way to make an early discovery. However, the trained?professional can and does find abnormalities that?the self examiner misses.

?
?
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx.? A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
In my experience, those who?start changing a quote that they have often repeated,?are?the people?who have not sufficiently?understood the quote in the first place.
?
Mervyn3.0


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Mario Goveia
2008-05-08 16:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
BTW, the last time I checked, as an extremely
compassionate right winger, all my fuses were intact
and functioning perfectly:-))
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 20:18:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
Mario,
Self examination is always the best way to make an
early discovery. However, the trained?professional
can and does find abnormalities that?the self examiner
misses.
Mario responds:
In that case I recommend that you consult a trained
professional immediately - for your own good:-))
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx.? A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
From: Mervyn Lobo
In my experience, those who?start changing a quote
that they have often repeated,?are?the people?who have
not sufficiently?understood the quote in the first
place.
Mario responds:
Based on your "experience" which leads you to admire
the failed Marxist regimes in N. Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe
and Venezuela and recommend that Goa become like them
by trying Marxism, you are obviously not in any
position to understand that Goan Marxists are
Marxists, which makes my adaptation just as valid as
the original.
Carvalho
2008-05-08 18:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Vaz
Could we possibly borrow that jewboy of yours to
finish the unfinished
extremity Marx left behind? ;--))
--------------------------
He's only part jewboy, bebee, the rest of him is all
Irish Catholic :-)

This banter with Chris brings to the fore a serious
question. Discussions offline have hinted and hinged
on Goanet being too limited a canvas for the Goan
diaspora. Yes, Goa is of interest to us, but so are
events, people and discussions taking place outside of
Goa.

Should Goanet expand its perspective to allow
discussions that not necessarily pertain to Goa but
would be of interest to Goans? Or maybe Frederick
would be kind enough to set up another mailing list
for diaspora Goans :-)

Of late even I've become bored with the issues being
discussed on Goanet.

selma







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Mario Goveia
2008-05-08 17:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx. A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
Carvalho elisabeth_car at yahoo.com
Wed May 7 09:25:12 PDT 2008
Mario,
Is there a paucity of quotes that we have to be
treated to this Reaganoid gemstone of wisdom, over and
over again :-)
Mario responds:
Yes, there is. As we can see from Mervyn's reaction,
the quote needs to be repeated until everyone
understands Marx:-))
The other one that needs repeating in India and Goa is
"The scariest words in the English language are "I'm
from the government and I'm here to help you'"
Selma wrote:
Which brings me to another quote, a fellow
right-winger used in connection with Rajan Parriker
"doing God's work".
Mario responds:
I think God did his work when he CREATED the
mini-paradise called Goa where we are lucky our roots
EVOLVED:-))
After getting the ball rolling God tends to leave it
up to us to enhance, or mess up.
I think Rajan needs to be commended for doing OUR
[NRI's] work, by informing us very graphically about
what is going on in Goa.
When it comes to his solutions, however, King Canute
already graphically proved even he could not stop
inexorable progress, which is also a formula that
benefits some at the expense of others. Only under
oppressive Marxist systems can progress be stopped or
slowed down as we are seeing in the few Marxist
economic basket cases that still exist:
Here is Rajan's list followed by my comments:
a) Freeze all construction of residential projects and
construction on hills, and in CRZ zones.
b) Investigate and reverse voter fraud.
c) Step up law enforcement to deal with migrant
loiterers, illegal hawking, and encroachment, and
civic misdemeanors.
d) Clear all slums.
e) Ban sale of land to non-Goans.
f) Demand special status for Goa within the framework
of the Indian Union. [end of Rajan's recipe]
Freeze all construction? Easy for Rajan to say
because he has nothing invested in these projects. I
may agree if we could immediately impose zoning laws
which the builders would have to comply with and
financial assistance to help them adjust in the middle
of their projects with new requirements. If Goa had
local zoning laws, which no Goan activist is
promoting, no one would have to freeze any such
development.
Reverse voter fraud? Is Rajan serious? In a country
where felons behind bars can be and are elected?
Step up law enforcement - only against migrants?
Existing laws should already be enforced - against
everyone.
Clear all slums? OK. Then what? Are our
authoritarian activist's houses large enough?
Ban sale of land to non-Goans? Not possible when the
non-Goans are Indians.
Special status for Goa? In a giant highly diverse
country like India? Where would this precedent end?
Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel I wish Rajan
and the other activists would focus on solutions that
benefit everyone.
Mario Goveia
2008-05-08 22:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:44:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Should Goanet expand its perspective to allow
discussions that not necessarily pertain to Goa but
would be of interest to Goans?
Mario responds:
I have advocated this for years only to have verbal
garbage thrown at me by irate Goa-centric activists.
Actually some discussions do sneak in under the radar
as shown by the attacks on the US economy under the
guise of advising middle-East Goans about their
assets, and the attempt to establish that there is a
debate going on on the causes of climate change. But
these depend on how some reference to Goa is snuck in
and the mood of a moderator and are highly selective.
Selma writes:
Of late even I've become bored with the issues being
discussed on Goanet.
Mario responds:
Bored with Goanet? Surely you jest?
Bored with the fight to keep the caste system alive in
Goa and the diaspora?
Bored with the the fight to keep Goa pristine for the
sake of the existing landowners who are already safely
ensconced there?
Bored with the furious attack on the hapless non-Goan
migrants, without whom Goa's economy would come to a
standstill, and the BJP who always make a convenient
punching bag?
Bored with the scientific research - if it comes from
the UN it has to be scientific, right - that would
deny meat-loving Goans their sorpotel and chorizos,
vindaloo and xacuti all for the sake of the planet:-))
Bored with graphic displays of the rape of Goa
followed by emotional discussions to, in effect, turn
Goa into an authoritarian separatist Marxist state,
run by a small cabal of all-knowing and well-meaning
Goanetters and Goan musicians, but no attempt at any
sensible solution [except from me:-))]?
Bored with the "serious" discussions about religion
and politics?, and finally,
Bored with the stimulating discussion on the
difference between illegal Ponzi schemes and legal
MLMs some with questionable business practices?
On second thought, let's get back to your first
question shown above:-))
But wait. Who would address the question? As you
well know, the Goanet Admin are busy with other
priorities:-))
Carvalho
2008-05-09 08:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
But wait. Who would address the question? As you
well know, the Goanet Admin are busy with other
priorities:-))
------------------------------------------

Dear Mario,
I suspect this discussion will not go beyond you and
I, but I thought I'd give voice to several goanetters
who have candidly admitted in private that they are
bored with Goanet.

We have Rajan Parriker doing a V. S. Naipul on us
everyday wanting to save Goa, we have Clinton trying
to save frogs, some NGO trying to save dogs, a couple
of spurious and doctored articles about the
Inquisition or conversions, and a couple of
obituaries. That's Goanet in a nutshel these days.

The moderators seem to cull everything remotely OFF
TOPIC or sexually explicit (as if the average
readership is eight years old), politically incorrect
or irrelevant to Goa. Goanet has become devoid of all
its former wit, humour and profundity.

Infact I've grown so bored that I've started
responding to posts about gall-stones. Still, I
suppose there is hope. Gillian has just told us that
all Goan women are generally found discussing Darwin's
theory of evolution interspersed with notes here and
there about the latest rachad recipe. So I await with
bated breath for the arrival of these women on Goanet
to spice things up.

Selma


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JOHN MONTEIRO
2008-05-09 09:59:06 UTC
Permalink
We either need more of what is happening in Goa today, yesterday and as recently as over the past few years.............surely more happens than is permitted to be shown on Goanet, or we need to plead with the moderators to give a little more scope, not so many postings labelled as "inappropriate" or are the sensitivities of the adult moderators so that we cannot gauge what IS appropriate for us to read?

If there is a cuss word or two, or if the poster has been racialist or sexist beyond acceptance, perhaps a form of censorship may be the way forward but I have had several posts not accepted by Goanet when I really could not see where I had offended anyone, other than it was perceived as possibly offensive, but is that not just what people do in conversations, some subjects are taboo (or are they?), so they are not permitted beyond just mentioning them, but no details can be gone into.

Some subjects do get to be a bit long in the tooth,but that is probably up to Goanetters to say so. For instance if a subject has been done to death for over a month, or two months, or if it goes on longer than there must be someone who is interested in posting further on the subject. If we have new subscribers, they may well bring up the subject again, as did I several times when first joining but was not aware of the archives ........ some more than 2 to 5 years old, since then many more people have joined but the subjects may not be mentioned again, because it was done to death a year or so ago.

But why cant we repeat some advice to the newcomers or allow the newcomers to bring forth a fresh look on an old subject, then the older Goanetters can give sage advice.

In the meantime, I will only be taking note of recipes only, unless there are any fresh subjects or old subjects with 21 century resolutions to them..............

Having said this, perhaps I may well visit other sites of interest to me, for Goans & people of non-PIO but are interested in all things Goan. I may be enlightened further. Its a shame that I feel there is 'no point' anymore in reading any of the posts, I delete 90% these days, when a year ago I read every post, then 6 months ago started reading only my "top 10" posters or if there was a newcomer / disguised former reject from Goanet or anyone other than the usual posters, I now have only a "Top 5"........... the others are no longer interesting for me, its the same old, same old............ having culled 5 of the "Top 5", there is very little now for me to do other than find something else, what is happening with Goans in the UK / Canada / USA / other "western countries"............ why / who / when / etc is also of interest to me.

The Gulf Goans have their sites where their interests lie........ either with Goans back home or their own segregated life-style, not wanting to participate with the rest of the world. Goa has had a very bad press lately, not just in rapes, drugs, murder etc, this has been going on for decades but it took one courageous mother to make the whole world sit up, watch and listen.

How about these recipes then? Looking forward to trying them out. I have a good mind to send in recipes myself to spice up the humdrum lives of our admin staff

John Monteiro
-------------------------------------------
But wait. Who would address the question? As you well know, the Goanet Admin are busy with other priorities:-))
------------------------------------------

Dear Mario, I suspect this discussion will not go beyond you and I, but I thought I'd give voice to several goanetters who have candidly admitted in private that they are bored with Goanet.

The moderators seem to cull everything remotely OFF TOPIC or sexually explicit (as if the average readership is eight years old), politically incorrect or irrelevant to Goa. Goanet has become devoid of all its former wit, humour and profundit...........So I await with
bated breath for the arrival of these women on Goanet to spice things up.....Selma
---------------------------------------
CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-05-09 13:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi John
Arising from your substantial introspective post below
(but now necessarily truncated) I believe that:

a) clarification ought to be provided to the 9000+
membership of Goanet, about the membership of the
Goanet Admin team or any other management team that
presumably exists for Goanet to function effectively.

b) identification by name of such a team(s) so that
the membership can know who has responsibility for
different functions, and especially, who can act on
recent constructive criticism about Goanet and
particularly its moderation.

c) next, publicity on the public forum should be made
available for consideration of constructive
suggestions from the Goanet membership with the main
aim of co-operatively helping to make improvements to
Goanet at this particular juncture even if this make
take some time to implement satisfactorily.

d) there is absolutely no ill-will in wanting to see
improvements in the functioning of our much esteemed
Goanet.
Cornel DaCosta
Post by JOHN MONTEIRO
We either need more of what is happening in Goa
today, yesterday and as recently as over the past
few years...surely more happens than is
permitted to be shown on Goanet, or we need to plead
with the moderators to give a little more scope, not
so many postings labelled as "inappropriate" ...
I have had several posts not accepted by Goanet
when I really could not see where I had offended
anyone, other than it was perceived as possibly
offensive, but is that not just what people do in
conversations, some subjects are taboo (or are
they?), so they are not permitted beyond just
mentioning them, but no details can be gone into.
If we have new subscribers, they may well bring up
the subject again, as did I several times when first
Post by JOHN MONTEIRO
joining but was not aware of the archives ...
some more than 2 to 5 years old...
But why cant we repeat some advice to the
newcomers or allow the newcomers to bring forth a
fresh look on an old subject, then the older
Goanetters can give sage advice.
Arwin Mesquita
2008-05-09 23:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Mario

Its easy to criticise Rajan and others working on solutions for Goa & Goans;
he is clearly spending his valuable time. Can I request that you focus
on solutions which would benefit Goa & Goans?

Arwin
Carvalho
2008-05-10 07:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Francis
When I started reading and writing on Goanet two to
three years ago,
there were almost no posts that I skipped.
------------------------------------------
Dear Roland,

I must admit I had a good laugh reading your post.
Surely, we need more humour on Goanet.

The other title for this subject line is, "how to
increase diaspora Goanetter's perspective about Goa".
The span of two to three years that we have been
posting marks a period of an accelerated downward
slide in Goa. There is this feeling of hopelessness,
being bended at the knees by builder lobbies,
over-wrought by an influx of people and a complete
breakdown in trust between people and the polity.

Perhaps it's a time of tremendous upheaval but also of
growth for Goa, one that is essential for a stronger
democracy to emerge. The fact is that Goan diaspora
have little understanding of what is going on in Goa
at the moment.

Take for instance Mario's suggestions. They are
certainly solid suggestions from a western democracy
point of view. I agree with a lot he has to say and I
myself have thought along similar lines, but to what
extent you can transfer those suggestions to the
ground realities that exist in Goa is questionable.

Of late, I have stopped having an opinion about Goa.
So removed are we from what is happening that our
opinions seem superfluous, facile, banal, irrelevant
and at times can only be construed as insolent.

So how much diaspora Goans can genuinely contribute to
this forum remains the big question.

selma


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Gilbert Lawrence
2008-05-10 13:19:32 UTC
Permalink
There is much to write about Goa and what could help Goans either in Goa or in the Diaspora.?
The Goanet writers, especially the voracious ones, who?appear?now to be?a bit tired and bored should consider the following, which has been modified. The modifications are in parenthesis.
Regards, GL
?
The Socrates Triple Filter Test
In ancient Greece , Socrates was reputed to hold knowledge in high esteem.

One day an acquaintance met the great philosopher and said, "Do you know what I just heard about your friend?"?
"Hold on a minute," Socrates replied. "Before telling me (writing) anything, I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called? the Triple Filter Test."
?
"Triple filter?"
?
"That's right," Socrates continued. "Before you talk to me (write) about my friend, (any situation) it might be a good idea to take a moment and filter what you're going to say. That's why I call it the triple filter test."
?
"The first filter is TRUTH. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?"
"No," the man said, "actually I just heard about it and..."
?
'All right," said Socrates. "So you don't really know if it's true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of GOODNESS. Is what you are about to tell me about my friend (situation) something good?"
?
"No, on the contrary..."
?
"So," Socrates continued, "you want to tell me (write) something bad about him, (the situation) but you're not certain it's true. You may still pass the test though, because there's one filter left: the filter of USEFULNESS. Is what you want to tell me (write) about my friend (the Goan situation) going to be useful to me?"
?
"No, not really."

"Well," concluded Socrates, "if what you want to tell me (write) is neither true nor good nor even useful, why tell it to me at all?"
Friends, use this triple filter each time you hear loose talk about (from)?any of your near & dear friends.?
?---------- Carvalho wrote
Of late, I have stopped having an opinion about Goa.? So removed are we from what is happening that our opinions seem superfluous, facile, banal, irrelevant and at times can only be construed as insolent.

So how much diaspora Goans can genuinely contribute to this forum remains the big question.
When I started reading and writing on Goanet two to?three years ago,?there were almost no posts that I skipped.
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Mario Goveia
2008-05-10 17:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 03:49:57 +0400
From: "Arwin Mesquita" <arwinmesquita at gmail.com>
Its easy to criticise Rajan and others working on
solutions for Goa & Goans;
Mario responds:
Did you miss the fact that I have praised Rajan on
several occasions for graphically showing us the
problem? However, I must admit it was easy to
criticise his solutions and similar solutions being
offered by others, which have no chance of prevailing
within the realities that exist in Goa.
Arwin wrote:
Can I request that you focus on solutions which would
benefit Goa & Goans?
Mario responds:
Sure you can, Arwin, but I'm not sure why you are
requesting what I have already provided. However, if
your understanding of what I write is the same as your
understanding of the difference between a state within
a country and a country, you will certainly miss the
fact that I am the only one on Goanet who has a
practical and workable solution on the table and have
had one since the following post. In the meantime
Santosh and others have demolished your side of the
argument under a torrent of sarcasm:
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-April/072036.html
Once you grasp the difference between Goa and another
country, perhaps you will begin to understand that I
am a generation ahead of you and that the goal of my
practical solutions is a balance between development
and local control over the local environment and a
win-win situation for everyone, not just an ongoing
power struggle between the haves and the have-nots
that leads to a lot of heat but no light.
Mario Goveia
2008-05-10 18:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 18:55:27 -0400
From: "Roland Francis" <roland.francis at gmail.com>
Accidents on the rise in Merces (and are they going
down in the rest of Goa)
Invitation to participate in Youth Conference
(privately send to Clinton Vaz)
Two new uploads on MAND blog (are we going to be told
about downloads as well)
Mama Cool party at Clube Gaspar Dias (Mama Africa
would interest me more)
Educomp launches MagiKeys at Goa IT conclave. (Inform
the Vatican, it might be of use at their next
conclave)
Oh my, oh my, the excitement needs to be ramped up
more than a little. Even Mario Goveia has been tamed.
Mario responds, obviously untamed:-))
Not so fast, Roland.
As someone who has earned the ire of Goa-centric
Goanetters far longer than you and Selma might for
suggesting an expansion of Goanet's perspective, I
must ask you to show some more respect for what our
Goanetter sisters and brothers around the world would
like to say on Goanet.
Don't you understand the concept of a "cyber-forum",
which is what Goanet is, only with an emphasis on Goa?
A forum is the ultimate in free speech - enlightened
or cow cakes depending on your individual point of
view or mood du jour.
Imagine a real forum in one of the Panjim gardens with
groups engaged in discussions all around you. You
stroll around and hear about the accidents in Merces
being on the rise. If you have any sense you would
learn to be more careful the next time you pass
through Merces. You wonder whether a MAND blog is
something you step over on the pavement and hear about
Clinton's conference and wonder if you should attend
or not. You decide you're too old for a Youth
Conference:-)) The next time Ethel is in Africa you
might well get a report on Mama Africa and the local
Goans who were in attendance. You obviously have no
idea what a cool place Clube Gaspar Dias is. Your
days to attend a MagiKeys conference are probably long
gone, but your kids may be interested.
You certainly can post your own series of boring
reports - for the rest of us, we won't object - on the
Goan conference that will soon take place in Toronto,
or any other news that may have some relevance to
Goans, but certainly not the Irish or West Indies
Festival down the road from you.
From my knowledge of Toronto, one could have a Goan
forum just for that area, that is if you guys can
overlook for one moment your internecine revalries
between African Goans and Pakistani Goans and Gulf
Goans and every garden variety of Goan who all pretend
they are superior to each other as well as the real
thing, which is Indian Goans. Is that tame enough for
you?:-))
The point is that no one is forced to join in any of
the discussions going on. You listen, you join or you
move on.
You may stay awhile to explain to Arwin and Jane what
the difference is between Goa and the USA, then move
on to assure Rajan and Floriano that we would be glad
to elect them President and Vice President the minute
Goa separates from India, and Arwin as Minister of
Migrant Affairs, then take Mervyn aside and ask him
what he has against Goa that he would like them to
become like N. Korea, Cuba and Zimbabwe, then stroll
on to explain to Gabe that you are making a bundle by
shopping in Buffalo, the prices are a steal right now,
and have noticed that the US is not yet going to hell
in a handbasket economically, not even in a recession
yet, but close, and how they LOVE their Canadian
customers, ...er, neighbors, then join Gilbert in
passionate discussion with Cornel about the wisdom or
lack thereof of maintaing what is a mythical "Goan
identity" in the diaspora.
Stay away from Kevin - he will either convert you or
turn you into a vegan now that the UN has given him a
boatload of new ammunition:-))
If there is nothing of interst going on, you join
Cecil and me in the nearest cyber-tavern for a brew -
he with a tall Feni, I with a Bud because I'm already
out of the Feni I brought less than three months ago,
and you with a bottle of Molson Light:-))
That's how a REAL forum of your fellow men and women
works - it is what it is, and you make of it what you
can.
Santosh Helekar
2008-05-11 07:10:28 UTC
Permalink
In the meantime Santosh and others have demolished
I have merely taken the impractical and misguided
notions of insulating Goa from outsiders and
preserving the myth of a unique Goan identity, to
their logical conclusion. In this respect, my
contention is two-fold:
1. The real solution to the problem of indiscriminate
use and misuse of land does not require us to militate
against non-Goans.

2. There is no basis for a single homogeneous Goan
identity that can be or needs to be preserved. The
identity of each Goan social group, which there are a
legion, differs significantly based on religion,
caste, subcaste, taluka, village and vaddo. Rajan's
cultural identity is not the same as that of Romlo or
Remo. My neighbors in Chimbel speak four different
dialects of Konknni, and have as many distinct sets of
rites and mores.

What needs to be preserved and promoted, therefore, is
our language, literature, art, music and the wholesome
traditions and cultural practices of all the
multifarious Goan communities. At the same time we
need to weed out harmful elements of our culture,
along with xenophobic and intolerant attitudes.

My personal experience has been that non-Goans who
permanently settle in Goa can do all of this as well
as any native Goan, let alone a theatrical Goan
cyber-chauvinist.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mario Goveia
2008-05-11 22:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:41:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Take for instance Mario's suggestions. They are
certainly solid suggestions from a western democracy
point of view. I agree with a lot he has to say and I
myself have thought along similar lines, but to what
extent you can transfer those suggestions to the
ground realities that exist in Goa is questionable.
Mario asks:
Selmabai,
So, what are you saying? That the enlightened western
democracies are "solid" in their approach while the
hapless Goans are not? The answer is, if they are
not, perhaps it is high time they moved in that
direction, before it's too late.
According to you and Chris, a system that has worked
well in all the civilized democratic societies in the
world in balancing the interests of local environments
and citizens with economic developers will not work in
democratic Goa due to the "ground realities". Even
though it has never been tried and it now takes
wasteful economic activity by developers followed by
mass public protests to get anything done or undone in
Goa?
Are you suggesting that these "ground realities"
include stupidity? I have been assuming a higher
level of intelligence and self-interest than you
apparently are assuming.
Selma writes:
Of late, I have stopped having an opinion about Goa.
So removed are we from what is happening that our
opinions seem superfluous, facile, banal, irrelevant
and at times can only be construed as insolent.
Mario responds:
So, behind the beautiful big words, aren't you really
saying "let's run and hide our heads in the sand"?
Let's not give them ideas we know of, of provable
solutions that have worked everywhere else, that they
haven't yet tried, because the "ground reality" is
that they are too stupid or lazy?
Selma writes:
So how much diaspora Goans can genuinely contribute to
this forum remains the big question.
Mario responds:
It all depends on the contribution, doesn't it?
"There are no simple solutions. Only intelligent
choices." - Caterpillar Tractor Company.
Carvalho
2008-05-12 07:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
"There are no simple solutions. Only intelligent
choices." - Caterpillar Tractor Company.
--------------------------------------
Coincidentally my father worked for Caterpillar for
some 30 odd years. In those days in the Gulf, there
certainly weren't any simple solutions, just choices
to be made, mostly out of necessity than anything
else.

But enough about me :-)
Like I said the solutions you propose are solid but
western democracies are premised on certain things,
like:

a) A robust state education system which allows some
measure of an equitable playing field.
b) The bell of the population being middle-class.
c) Respect for the rule of law.

Not that I want to give undue credit to the West, for
they've had five hundred years to develop these
institutions amply aided by the wealth they hauled
from their colonies. Goa on the other hand, has been
under colonial rule for the past 500 years with little
to no experience in managing a democracy. Democracies
don't exist in a vacuum, they are held together
precariously by its institutions, and colonial powers
did very little to put these in place.

Ofcourse one can talk about the free hand of
capitalism making intelligent decisions, but
capitalism's free hand is rather like a Pathan's free
hand in a crowded Arabian fish market. It doesn't know
its boundaries unless guided by the law and
unfortunately the law is non-existent in Goa at the
moment.

Goa is undergoing a very important and almost
inescapable lesson in democracy. That the peasants
will hold the monarch accountable for his actions.
Once the powers that be learn this lesson, things take
a dramatic turn for the better. I believe the upheaval
taking place in Goa today will create the very basis
of democracy.

selma


____________________________________________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2008-05-12 15:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 00:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Not that I want to give undue credit to the West, for
they've had five hundred years to develop these
institutions amply aided by the wealth they hauled
from their colonies.
Mario responds:
Why not give credit where credit is due? So what if
"the west" took five hundred years to develop their
systems? That means we could SAVE five hundred years
by copying their systems instead of either
re-inventing the wheel or the nutty unworkable ideas
that so many on Goanet are wasting their time on.
Does anyone with more than half a brain on this forum
think they are going to STOP development in Goa, or
impose authoritarian separatist Marxist solutions
which will only work successfully if we make Floriano
and Rajan President and Vice President, and not
someone like my neighbor Babush?
Selma writes:
Goa on the other hand, has been under colonial rule
for the past 500 years with little to no experience in
managing a democracy. Democracies don't exist in a
vacuum, they are held together precariously by its
institutions, and colonial powers did very little to
put these in place.
Mario responds:
What a sad, pathetic ex-colonial excuse which also
makes no sense. Goa has had 47 years now of
uninterrupted democracy which is enough time to copy
all the sensible policies that the west took five
hundred years to develop. If we could catch up and
even surpass the west in many fields of engineering,
which is far more difficult, then certainly we could
have done this in civil administration.
If Indian engineers can use their brains, why can't
everyone else?
Selma wrote:
Of course one can talk about the free hand of
capitalism making intelligent decisions, but
capitalism's free hand is rather like a Pathan's free
hand in a crowded Arabian fish market. It doesn't know
its boundaries unless guided by the law and
unfortunately the law is non-existent in Goa at the
moment.
Mario responds:
Selma, wake up, it is morning on Goanet:-)) What have
you been reading? Soon Fr. Ivo will be telling you
that you are understanding "EXACTLY THE CONTRARY" of
what I have been writing. And this time he will be
right.
Your prattling on about untrammeled capitalism and
Pathans in fish markets shows you have not understood
a word about what I have been recommending or the
zoning laws I have been describing.
Wait a minute. How did a Pathan find his way to an
Arabian fish market? But I digress.
Aye, aye, aye! Yes, zoning laws are non-existent in
Goa, WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT. They need to be passed
across Goa, at the Panchayat and Gram Sabha level.
Authoritarian separatist Marxist rule is also
non-existent in Goa, but I don't see you objecting to
the emotional, frustrated calls for that kind of
nonsense.
Which do you think is a) easier to implement in Goa,
and b) more likely to work?
Selma wrote:
Goa is undergoing a very important and almost
inescapable lesson in democracy. That the peasants
will hold the monarch accountable for his actions.
Once the powers that be learn this lesson, things take
a dramatic turn for the better. I believe the upheaval
taking place in Goa today will create the very basis
of democracy.
Mario responds:
Knock! Knock! Hello! Anyone home?:-))
The upheaval going on in Goa is moving in "EXACTLY THE
CONTRARY" direction: massive, wasteful, emotional
civil protests to STOP development. They have no
choice right now but to STOP development BECAUSE THERE
IS NO FRAMEWORK FOR CONTROLLING AND RATIONALIZING
DEVELOPMENT.
Every project is a huge power struggle with winners
and losers. Mostly the citizens are losing as we can
see from Rajan's pictures. No one is thinking in the
direction of a routine process that is a win-win
situation for everyone without needless wasteful
activity by both developers and citizens.
WHICH IS WHAT ZONING LAWS ARE ALL ABOUT.
Carvalho
2008-05-13 10:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Authoritarian separatist Marxist rule is also
non-existent in Goa, but I don't see you objecting
to
the emotional, frustrated calls for that kind of
nonsense.
-------------------------------

Dear Mario,
I'll leave you to prattle on about zoning laws in Goa.
Obviously you are unaware that hundreds of laws exist
in India and in Goa, but the problem is none of these
are adhered.

Now, coming you your assertion that I am in tacit
approval of a Marxist, separatist state, obviously you
have not been reading my posts or preferring not to
understand the content of them. I have never embraced
Marxist ideology nor called for the seceding of Goa. I
am a Nehruvian nationalist.

Secondly I have never been what is popularly refered
to in Goa as "anti-development". While you were away,
it was just Philip Thomas and me, keeping the
capatilist voice alive. The "anti-development" stance
is extremely short-sighted and misguided.

For instance, Panjim had a good opportunity to convert
one of the older medical building into a shopping
arcade. Due to the misguided sentiments of some Goan
doctors, this project was impaled in the heart and
discarded. Well, you and I both know that the
conservation of heritage building in the West, is
dependent almost entirely on shopping arcades, hotels,
bars and restaurants or antique galleries taking them
on, restoring them, preserving aspects of their
architecture (usually the facade) and remodeling the
rest to operate as commercial ventures.

Goans have to compromise, they have to recognise what
is a true investment opportunity and what is not. I
don't want to be insolent enough to suggest what is
best for Goa, but I do agree with you that from an
outsider's perspective, the "anti-development"
backlash that is going on, will be absolutely be
detrimental to Goa in the long term.

selma
Mario Goveia
2008-05-13 15:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 03:00:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Obviously you are unaware that hundreds of laws exist
in India and in Goa, but the problem is none of these
are adhered.
Mario responds:
I'm not sure whom you think you are helping with yet
another dismissive statement which falsely suggests
that there are anything like zoning laws in Goa.
Selma wrote:
Now, coming you your assertion that I am in tacit
approval of a Marxist, separatist state, obviously you
have not been reading my posts or preferring not to
understand the content of them. I have never embraced
Marxist ideology nor called for the seceding of Goa. I
am a Nehruvian nationalist.
Mario responds:
Nehru should have stopped at being a nationalist. If
he had turned right instead of left in 1947, as Japan
did after WW-II, India would have been a superpower by
now.
I never said you were a closet Marxist - I simply said
that I did not see from you any strenuous objections
to the suggestions for authoritarian separatist
Marxist policies in Goa - at the same time you were
dismissing the policies that have worked well in every
developed country to control economic development. I
see you seem to have finally woken up to that fact.
Selma wrote:
Secondly I have never been what is popularly refered
to in Goa as "anti-development".
Mario responds:
Making dismissive comments about the west being
"solid" and western zoning policies being unlikely to
work in Goa due to "ground realities" is a strange way
to show that you are pro-rational-development.
Without the kinds of rational zoning laws I am
proposing the local Goans have no alternative but to
OBSTRUCT development, and, based on Gadgil's reporting
they are finally beginning to make some headway.
Selma wrote:
Goans have to compromise, they have to recognise what
is a true investment opportunity and what is not.
Mario responds:
There is too much money to be made in Goa right now
for the developers to be "rational". They are in the
business of making money, not in the business of being
"rational". The ugly results are there for everyone
to see through the lens of Rajan Parrikar.
Only the local residents through their Panchayats and
Gram Sabhas can turn things around - the politicians
at the upper levels cannot be relied upon to lead the
charge - though they should be doing so.
Tell all your friends in Goa to go see Rajan's exhibit
in Panjim next week, The Rape of Goa - it may open
their eyes and their brains.
Carvalho
2008-05-13 17:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
There is too much money to be made in Goa right now
for the developers to be "rational". They are in
the
business of making money, not in the business of
being
"rational". The ugly results are there for everyone
to see through the lens of Rajan Parrikar.
-------------------------------

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. On
the one hand you seem to be chastising Rajan for
obstructing Builders and on the other hand you want me
and my friends to go to his show and peer through his
lenses.

I shall leave you to debate with yourself, complete
with diagrams, slide presentation and megaphone. I'm
sure you will single-handedly save Goa from the
Builders by instituting zoning laws, right after you
have abolished the caste system amongst Goan
Catholics.

Good luck and God speed,
selma
Mario Goveia
2008-05-13 21:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
There is too much money to be made in Goa right now
for the developers to be "rational". They are in
the business of making money, not in the business of
being "rational". The ugly results are there for
everyone to see through the lens of Rajan Parrikar.
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:01:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
Mario responds:
Very simple - if you follow the entire discussion
without being distracted.
I was responding to what you said, "Goans have to
compromise, they have to recognise what is a true
investment opportunity and what is not."
"Goans" have to compromise? "Goans" have to
recognize? Who are you talking about? Are Goans a
monolith? There are all kinds of Goans with all kinds
of interests, and those who are responsible for the
blight, the developers, have little incentive to be
responsible and a lot of incentive to make money now
that Goa is "hot".
Which is why Goa needs local zoning laws to maintain
control and balance, which they don't have right now.
Selma writes:
On the one hand you seem to be chastising Rajan for
obstructing Builders and on the other hand you want me
and my friends to go to his show and peer through his
lenses.
Mario responds:
See if you can follow this - you may have to read
s-l-o-w-l-y:-))
I praised Rajan for doing a yeoman's job of exposing
the rape of Goa and told everyone I know in Goa to go
see his exhibition next week. If you haven't done so
yet, there is still time. The same goes for others
who have friends in Goa. Don't assume they will hear
about it locally.
I criticized him for his specific obstructionist
proposals which have a snowball's chance in hell of
being implemented. Yet, because I don't like to see
Goa defaced any more than Rajan does, I also opined
that he and other activists have no choice right now
because they have no legal way to control the blight.
They can only stop the mayhem by obstructing it. Thus
in every project, someone wins and someone loses and
mountains of evergy are wasted.
WHICH IS WHY ZONING LAWS ARE NEEDED, so that managed
development can proceed in an orderly fashion without
obstructing development in the long run, thus
providing a win-win situation for everyone. Q.E.D.
If I lived in Goa I would join in stopping these ugly
projects, but simultaneously be pushing for zoning
laws that the builders would have to comply with to
get their projects re-instated.
Please let me know if this is too complicated and I
will write more s-l-o-w-l-y:-))
Selma wrote:
I shall leave you to debate with yourself.....
Mario responds:
That would be a Titanic debate, for sure, with
scintillating repartee and brilliant points being made
on both sides, without having to worry about those who
can't keep up:-))
Selma wrote:
I'm sure you will single-handedly save Goa from the
Builders by instituting zoning laws, right after you
have abolished the caste system amongst Goan
Catholics.
Mario responds:
If I don't it will not be because I didn't try.
You must have noticed that we have not heard a peep
out of the caste supporters recently. I have
confidence that most Goans of goodwill who followed
the caste debate will be more sensitive the next time
they are faced with a decision in which caste may have
previously played a role, and, remembering something
we said here, will refuse to let it play a role this
time. That is how you slowly choke a 450 year old
atrocity to death, one Goan at a time making one
decision at a time, refusing to discriminate on the
basis of an accident of birth.
If they do not institute zoning laws in Goa little is
going to change. Those with the power - either money
power or people power - will win some and lose some
with those with money power winning most of the
battles. Development will be uneven.
Years from now Rajan will need a football stadium to
fit in all his pictures.
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-05-14 01:03:54 UTC
Permalink
In my e-mail box was a post that perhaps may answer the following dilemma.
?
--------------?Carvalho

Take for instance Mario's suggestions. They are certainly solid suggestions from a western democracy point of view. I agree with a lot he has to say and I myself have thought along similar lines, but to what extent you can transfer those suggestions to the ground realities that exist in Goa is questionable.
Of late, I have stopped having an opinion about Goa. So removed are we from what is happening that our opinions seem superfluous, facile, banal, irrelevant and at times can only be construed as insolent.

?
-----------?Mario Goveia
?
Selmabai, So, what are you saying?? That the enlightened western democracies are "solid" in their approach while the hapless Goans are not?? The answer is, if they are not, perhaps it is high time they moved in that direction, before it's too late.? Are you suggesting that these "ground realities" include stupidity?? I have been assuming a higher level of intelligence and self-interest than you apparently are assuming.

?
--------- GL responds with the following post: =))

Where did the White Man go wrong?
The Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official, 'You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done.'

The Chief nodded in agreement.

The official continued, 'Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong? '

The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied. 'When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex.'

Then the chief leaned back and smiled 'Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that.'
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-05-16 02:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Goanet posts should be aimed for a large audience with different backgrounds. Hence the challenge is for the posts?to deal with precise Goan-related issues in a universal way. The writings should gain the attention of the readers not by arguing this side of an issue or that (as we often see), but rather by a thoughtful presentation in full - in all its powerful implications. The immediacy and directness of the message should drive home the author's imaginative thoughts.
?
The reality is many of the issues are of perennial nature. They have been discussed before - again and again and again. Yet?sometimes it may be the same mis-information that is presented again and again and again. While at other times, the original post and the subsequent endless back and forth may just be a?bunch of rants that are grounded in half-truths. Posting vintage material (true or false) may have some therapeutic value on the poster rather than the readers.
?
There are?some posters who are into prosaic writings.? They should share their irresistible power, which makes us, the readers, feel the living force of people eager to examine their destinies with the utmost candor and passion.?By now most of us know the (other) posters; and who?may be a credible (yet often arm-chair) arch-advocate.??However, supurlem Goenkars (like moi) could do without the author being a sesquipedalian - a lover of big words..
?
While I do not encourage self-glorification, I would strongly support Goans presenting their own experiences.? Nothing is more powerful that some theories or philosophies put into practice and yielding results.?More often we see posters presenting advice not followed / practiced by the author. We-all could use role-models that we could emulate, in?our own?small or big environment. This,?rather than?read posts that have the usual hand-wringing and complaining; for which Goans are so famous.
?
Regards, GL
anesimo56
2008-05-05 23:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Dear Goanet Readers

Santosh Helekar wrote>This would not be enough.The following additional prescription would be needed.

The above comments about Rajans?interview is written in bad taste and to denigrate his work.The issue about immigrants is not Rajans fantasy or imagination.This issue is bugging goyenkars big time.They think?it is just a question of time before we have major problems.In Margao there was a law and order situation among the Muslims over a burial. it was between the goans and non-Goans.I was expecting the secular goanetters to blame it on BJP.I beleive this problem is not yet resolved.

Rajan is talking about the rich non-Goans who are destroying our land,environment,pushing the land prices sky high?using ?their black money and encouraging corruption. He is talking about the other migrants who have no business to be goa,and are pitching up huts all over?the public and communidade land, defecating,urinating?and spitting all over the place.?

Goans did not fight OPINION POLL for nothing.Those who were not born at that time or too?young enough to remember,should ask their elders why they wanted Goa a separate entity.Rajan is saying what exactly most goyenkars say and feel. The only thing is, he is too honest, blunt and passionate about Goa.?I call him a niz goyenkar and will fully support any of his initiatives that will help Goa and Goans.?

It amazes me how pride and ego can affects ones rational thinking even to the extend of destroying ones motherland.

Cheers

Dr. Anesimo Fernandes?
________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
Satyawan Govekar
2008-05-06 08:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Dotor Anemiso Fernandes is saying to Santosh bab Helekar that his comments about Rajans?interview is written in bad taste and to denigrate his work.

Dotor bab what you are saying is not correct. I found Santosh bab's comments very funny. Rajan bab is doing a good job but we must identify who are real migrant. Go to Shirgao and see what Dempos (from Karwar), Chowgules (from Belgaum) and Bandekar from Maharashtra have done to the village.

All these bhatkars are actually nonGoan who came and did boot licking of the Portugese and put all land on their name. Goa's land is actually belonging to the tribals like Gawda, Dhangar, Kunbi and Velip. Can you give these people justice?

Who is selling the land of Goa? it is the same bhatkar people who are become builders, miners, newspaper owners and politicians. They are the worst migrant who are pretending to be Goan just because they are upper caste. They are the migrant danger to Goa. But nobody will throw them out.

Satyamev Jayate
Chris Vaz
2008-05-06 12:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Anesimo--

You are right on!

I fully empathize with you re Rajan. A true patriot!

I have also offered (together with a couple of other friends) whatever help
Rajan can use--both moral and financial.

I am very proud to have a fellow Goan like Rajan. When it is the welfare of
Goa, there is no divide among Christians, Muslims and Hindus! We are Goans
first!

Regards
Chris


----- Original Message -----
From: <anesimo56 at aim.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 7:04 PM
Subject: [Goanet] The migrant danger to Goa
Post by anesimo56
Dear Goanet Readers
Santosh Helekar wrote>This would not be enough.The following additional
prescription would be needed.
The above comments about Rajans?interview is written in bad taste and to
denigrate his work.The issue about immigrants is not Rajans fantasy or
imagination.This issue is bugging goyenkars big time.They think?it is just
a question of time before we have major problems.In Margao there was a law
and order situation among the Muslims over a burial. it was between the
goans and non-Goans.I was expecting the secular goanetters to blame it on
BJP.I beleive this problem is not yet resolved.
Rajan is talking about the rich non-Goans who are destroying our
land,environment,pushing the land prices sky high?using ?their black money
and encouraging corruption. He is talking about the other migrants who
have no business to be goa,and are pitching up huts all over?the public
and communidade land, defecating,urinating?and spitting all over the
place.?
Goans did not fight OPINION POLL for nothing.Those who were not born at
that time or too?young enough to remember,should ask their elders why they
wanted Goa a separate entity.Rajan is saying what exactly most goyenkars
say and feel. The only thing is, he is too honest, blunt and passionate
about Goa.?I call him a niz goyenkar and will fully support any of his
initiatives that will help Goa and Goans.?
It amazes me how pride and ego can affects ones rational thinking even to
the extend of destroying ones motherland.
Cheers
Dr. Anesimo Fernandes?
________________________________________________________________________
AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at
http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.
Santosh Helekar
2008-05-06 13:00:01 UTC
Permalink
The comments quoted below reveal a misguided belief
that all goencars think alike, and that there is only
one xenophobic solution to the problems of Goa. A
little thought and some knowledge of Goan history
should tell us otherwise.

Goencars have varied opinions about what is good for
Goa. Some Goencars want to divorce themselves from
India completely, and become an independent nation.
Others want to ban non-Goans from settling and
purchasing land in Goa, and preserving something
called Goan identity. Some want to simply eliminate
Hindu nationalistic parties such as BJP. But there
still are many who want to join Maharashtra.

My own view like that of a sizable number, I am sure,
is to adopt reasonable solutions within the Indian
constitution, which, as I have said before is:

"obeying the laws, properly enforcing them, reforming
outdated ones and enacting new ones wherever necessary
- laws against corruption, misuse and pillage of land,
destruction of the environment and heritage, social
discrimination and prejudice, and exploitation of the
working class."

As far as my earlier post in this thread is concerned,
to those who want to choose the Goan nationalist or
segregationist option, I have suggested additional
essential steps that they need to take to preserve all
the Goan identities without committing treason. Yes,
there are many Goan identities - a separate identity
for each Hindu caste and outcaste, a separate identity
for each of the major castes of the Catholics, and
another one for the Muslims. I forgot to add the
following additional measure:

o) To divorce Goa completely from India, ban all
Indian nationalist parties such as the Bharatiya
Janata Party.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by anesimo56
The above comments about Rajans?interview is written
in bad taste and to denigrate his work.The issue
about immigrants is not Rajans fantasy or
imagination.This issue is bugging goyenkars big
time.They think?it is just a question of time before
we have major problems.In Margao there was a law and
order situation among the Muslims over a burial. it
was between the goans and non-Goans.I was expecting
the secular goanetters to blame it on BJP.I beleive
this problem is not yet resolved.
Santosh Helekar
2008-05-06 15:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Satyawan is speaking the satya. He reminded me that I
should have added the following prescription to
Rajan's list for serious consideration by Anesimo and
others:

p) Evict all non-Goan bhatkars who have stolen the
land of the original settlers of Goa.

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. BTW, all these prescriptions and many more have
already been adopted by President Pandurang of IRC. I
have asked him to email me his list.
Post by Satyawan Govekar
All these bhatkars are actually nonGoan who came and
did boot licking of the Portugese and put all land
on their name. Goa's land is actually belonging to
the tribals like Gawda, Dhangar, Kunbi and Velip.
Can you give these people justice?
Who is selling the land of Goa? it is the same
bhatkar people who are become builders, miners,
newspaper owners and politicians. They are the worst
migrant who are pretending to be Goan just because
they are upper caste. They are the migrant danger to
Goa. But nobody will throw them out.
anesimo56
2008-05-06 21:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear?Goanet Readers

Santosh Helekar wrote>The comments quoted below reveal a misguided belief that all goencars think alike and that there is only one xenophobic solution to the problem in Goa.?

The craving of Goans to preserve their unique Identity,culture and save Goa from destruction is a reality.The misguided are those ones who live in their own cuckoo?land and has no clue about the ground realities in Goa.Fighting for ones Identity is not called Xenophobia. There is something?called as majority?view and that view has not changed since?Opinion Poll, except that?it is being distorted by?Ani-Goans.??

If some of our Goans are so concerned about the immigrants,then they should help to?improve their deplorable living conditions in shanty towns.Better still,they help improve economic conditions in their own places so that they don't have to migrate.RIGHT NOW,?
THE PRIORITY OF GOYENKARS IS TO SAVE THEIR OWN HOUSE FROM FIRE!?

VIVA GOA,VIVA GOYENKAR

Cheers

Dr. Anesimo Fernandes
Mervyn Lobo
2008-05-06 21:27:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
As far as my earlier post in this thread is concerned,
to those who want to choose the Goan nationalist or
segregationist option, I have suggested additional
essential steps that they need to take to preserve all
the Goan identities without committing treason. Yes,
there are many Goan identities - a separate identity
for each Hindu caste and outcaste, a separate identity
for each of the major castes of the Catholics, and
another one for the Muslims. I
Santosh,
You forgot the non-believers and Goan Marxist identity. You know, the people who blow the fuses of the extreme right wingers here.
Mervyn


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Mario Goveia
2008-05-07 15:06:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
As far as my earlier post in this thread is
concerned, to those who want to choose the Goan
nationalist or segregationist option, I have
suggested additional essential steps that they need
to take to preserve all the Goan identities without
committing treason. Yes, there are many Goan
identities - a separate identity for each Hindu
caste and outcaste, a separate identity for each of
the major castes of the Catholics, and another one
for the Muslims. I
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 14:27:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
Santosh,
You forgot the non-believers and Goan Marxist
identity. You know, the people who blow the fuses of
the extreme right wingers here.
Mario wonders:
Which of these identities were being recently
recommended for the Goan diaspora to preserve "like
the Parsis" do?
BTW, the last time I checked, as an extremely
compassionate right winger, all my fuses were intact
and functioning perfectly:-))
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx. A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
"Marx should have started by questioning Marxism".
Mario's adaptation from Marx:-))
Carvalho
2008-05-07 16:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx. A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
-------------------------------
Mario,
Is there a paucity of quotes that we have to be
treated to this Reaganoid gemstone of wisdom, over and
over again :-)

Which brings me to another quote, a fellow
right-winger used in connection with Rajan Parriker
"doing God's work".

Now, I was curious about this phrase and its origin.
It turns out, in 1190, the Jews being relentlessly
persecuted in York, Great Britain, barricaded
themselves at Clifford Tower. Leading the Christian
mob was a hermit, who kept yelling to the Christians
"you are doing God's work". One of the Jews, threw a
stone from the tower which unfortunately landed on the
hermit and killed him. This enflamed the mob even
more. The Jews inside growing desperate committed mass
suicide. Those that chose to leave the tower was
massacred by the Christian mob.

Moral of the story: We have to be careful when doing
God's work in Goa.

selma


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Mervyn Lobo
2008-05-08 03:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
BTW, the last time I checked, as an extremely
compassionate right winger, all my fuses were intact
and functioning perfectly:-))
?

?
Mario,
Self examination is always the best way to make an early discovery. However, the trained?professional can and does find abnormalities that?the self examiner misses.

?
?
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx.? A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
In my experience, those who?start changing a quote that they have often repeated,?are?the people?who have not sufficiently?understood the quote in the first place.
?
Mervyn3.0


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Mario Goveia
2008-05-08 16:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
BTW, the last time I checked, as an extremely
compassionate right winger, all my fuses were intact
and functioning perfectly:-))
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 20:18:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
Mario,
Self examination is always the best way to make an
early discovery. However, the trained?professional
can and does find abnormalities that?the self examiner
misses.
Mario responds:
In that case I recommend that you consult a trained
professional immediately - for your own good:-))
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx.? A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
From: Mervyn Lobo
In my experience, those who?start changing a quote
that they have often repeated,?are?the people?who have
not sufficiently?understood the quote in the first
place.
Mario responds:
Based on your "experience" which leads you to admire
the failed Marxist regimes in N. Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe
and Venezuela and recommend that Goa become like them
by trying Marxism, you are obviously not in any
position to understand that Goan Marxists are
Marxists, which makes my adaptation just as valid as
the original.
Carvalho
2008-05-08 18:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Vaz
Could we possibly borrow that jewboy of yours to
finish the unfinished
extremity Marx left behind? ;--))
--------------------------
He's only part jewboy, bebee, the rest of him is all
Irish Catholic :-)

This banter with Chris brings to the fore a serious
question. Discussions offline have hinted and hinged
on Goanet being too limited a canvas for the Goan
diaspora. Yes, Goa is of interest to us, but so are
events, people and discussions taking place outside of
Goa.

Should Goanet expand its perspective to allow
discussions that not necessarily pertain to Goa but
would be of interest to Goans? Or maybe Frederick
would be kind enough to set up another mailing list
for diaspora Goans :-)

Of late even I've become bored with the issues being
discussed on Goanet.

selma







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Mario Goveia
2008-05-08 17:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
"A Goan Marxist is someone who reads Marx. A
Goan-anti-Marxist is someone who understands Marx."
Mario's adaptation from Ronald Reagan:-))
Carvalho elisabeth_car at yahoo.com
Wed May 7 09:25:12 PDT 2008
Mario,
Is there a paucity of quotes that we have to be
treated to this Reaganoid gemstone of wisdom, over and
over again :-)
Mario responds:
Yes, there is. As we can see from Mervyn's reaction,
the quote needs to be repeated until everyone
understands Marx:-))
The other one that needs repeating in India and Goa is
"The scariest words in the English language are "I'm
from the government and I'm here to help you'"
Selma wrote:
Which brings me to another quote, a fellow
right-winger used in connection with Rajan Parriker
"doing God's work".
Mario responds:
I think God did his work when he CREATED the
mini-paradise called Goa where we are lucky our roots
EVOLVED:-))
After getting the ball rolling God tends to leave it
up to us to enhance, or mess up.
I think Rajan needs to be commended for doing OUR
[NRI's] work, by informing us very graphically about
what is going on in Goa.
When it comes to his solutions, however, King Canute
already graphically proved even he could not stop
inexorable progress, which is also a formula that
benefits some at the expense of others. Only under
oppressive Marxist systems can progress be stopped or
slowed down as we are seeing in the few Marxist
economic basket cases that still exist:
Here is Rajan's list followed by my comments:
a) Freeze all construction of residential projects and
construction on hills, and in CRZ zones.
b) Investigate and reverse voter fraud.
c) Step up law enforcement to deal with migrant
loiterers, illegal hawking, and encroachment, and
civic misdemeanors.
d) Clear all slums.
e) Ban sale of land to non-Goans.
f) Demand special status for Goa within the framework
of the Indian Union. [end of Rajan's recipe]
Freeze all construction? Easy for Rajan to say
because he has nothing invested in these projects. I
may agree if we could immediately impose zoning laws
which the builders would have to comply with and
financial assistance to help them adjust in the middle
of their projects with new requirements. If Goa had
local zoning laws, which no Goan activist is
promoting, no one would have to freeze any such
development.
Reverse voter fraud? Is Rajan serious? In a country
where felons behind bars can be and are elected?
Step up law enforcement - only against migrants?
Existing laws should already be enforced - against
everyone.
Clear all slums? OK. Then what? Are our
authoritarian activist's houses large enough?
Ban sale of land to non-Goans? Not possible when the
non-Goans are Indians.
Special status for Goa? In a giant highly diverse
country like India? Where would this precedent end?
Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel I wish Rajan
and the other activists would focus on solutions that
benefit everyone.
Mario Goveia
2008-05-08 22:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:44:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Should Goanet expand its perspective to allow
discussions that not necessarily pertain to Goa but
would be of interest to Goans?
Mario responds:
I have advocated this for years only to have verbal
garbage thrown at me by irate Goa-centric activists.
Actually some discussions do sneak in under the radar
as shown by the attacks on the US economy under the
guise of advising middle-East Goans about their
assets, and the attempt to establish that there is a
debate going on on the causes of climate change. But
these depend on how some reference to Goa is snuck in
and the mood of a moderator and are highly selective.
Selma writes:
Of late even I've become bored with the issues being
discussed on Goanet.
Mario responds:
Bored with Goanet? Surely you jest?
Bored with the fight to keep the caste system alive in
Goa and the diaspora?
Bored with the the fight to keep Goa pristine for the
sake of the existing landowners who are already safely
ensconced there?
Bored with the furious attack on the hapless non-Goan
migrants, without whom Goa's economy would come to a
standstill, and the BJP who always make a convenient
punching bag?
Bored with the scientific research - if it comes from
the UN it has to be scientific, right - that would
deny meat-loving Goans their sorpotel and chorizos,
vindaloo and xacuti all for the sake of the planet:-))
Bored with graphic displays of the rape of Goa
followed by emotional discussions to, in effect, turn
Goa into an authoritarian separatist Marxist state,
run by a small cabal of all-knowing and well-meaning
Goanetters and Goan musicians, but no attempt at any
sensible solution [except from me:-))]?
Bored with the "serious" discussions about religion
and politics?, and finally,
Bored with the stimulating discussion on the
difference between illegal Ponzi schemes and legal
MLMs some with questionable business practices?
On second thought, let's get back to your first
question shown above:-))
But wait. Who would address the question? As you
well know, the Goanet Admin are busy with other
priorities:-))
Carvalho
2008-05-09 08:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
But wait. Who would address the question? As you
well know, the Goanet Admin are busy with other
priorities:-))
------------------------------------------

Dear Mario,
I suspect this discussion will not go beyond you and
I, but I thought I'd give voice to several goanetters
who have candidly admitted in private that they are
bored with Goanet.

We have Rajan Parriker doing a V. S. Naipul on us
everyday wanting to save Goa, we have Clinton trying
to save frogs, some NGO trying to save dogs, a couple
of spurious and doctored articles about the
Inquisition or conversions, and a couple of
obituaries. That's Goanet in a nutshel these days.

The moderators seem to cull everything remotely OFF
TOPIC or sexually explicit (as if the average
readership is eight years old), politically incorrect
or irrelevant to Goa. Goanet has become devoid of all
its former wit, humour and profundity.

Infact I've grown so bored that I've started
responding to posts about gall-stones. Still, I
suppose there is hope. Gillian has just told us that
all Goan women are generally found discussing Darwin's
theory of evolution interspersed with notes here and
there about the latest rachad recipe. So I await with
bated breath for the arrival of these women on Goanet
to spice things up.

Selma


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JOHN MONTEIRO
2008-05-09 09:59:06 UTC
Permalink
We either need more of what is happening in Goa today, yesterday and as recently as over the past few years.............surely more happens than is permitted to be shown on Goanet, or we need to plead with the moderators to give a little more scope, not so many postings labelled as "inappropriate" or are the sensitivities of the adult moderators so that we cannot gauge what IS appropriate for us to read?

If there is a cuss word or two, or if the poster has been racialist or sexist beyond acceptance, perhaps a form of censorship may be the way forward but I have had several posts not accepted by Goanet when I really could not see where I had offended anyone, other than it was perceived as possibly offensive, but is that not just what people do in conversations, some subjects are taboo (or are they?), so they are not permitted beyond just mentioning them, but no details can be gone into.

Some subjects do get to be a bit long in the tooth,but that is probably up to Goanetters to say so. For instance if a subject has been done to death for over a month, or two months, or if it goes on longer than there must be someone who is interested in posting further on the subject. If we have new subscribers, they may well bring up the subject again, as did I several times when first joining but was not aware of the archives ........ some more than 2 to 5 years old, since then many more people have joined but the subjects may not be mentioned again, because it was done to death a year or so ago.

But why cant we repeat some advice to the newcomers or allow the newcomers to bring forth a fresh look on an old subject, then the older Goanetters can give sage advice.

In the meantime, I will only be taking note of recipes only, unless there are any fresh subjects or old subjects with 21 century resolutions to them..............

Having said this, perhaps I may well visit other sites of interest to me, for Goans & people of non-PIO but are interested in all things Goan. I may be enlightened further. Its a shame that I feel there is 'no point' anymore in reading any of the posts, I delete 90% these days, when a year ago I read every post, then 6 months ago started reading only my "top 10" posters or if there was a newcomer / disguised former reject from Goanet or anyone other than the usual posters, I now have only a "Top 5"........... the others are no longer interesting for me, its the same old, same old............ having culled 5 of the "Top 5", there is very little now for me to do other than find something else, what is happening with Goans in the UK / Canada / USA / other "western countries"............ why / who / when / etc is also of interest to me.

The Gulf Goans have their sites where their interests lie........ either with Goans back home or their own segregated life-style, not wanting to participate with the rest of the world. Goa has had a very bad press lately, not just in rapes, drugs, murder etc, this has been going on for decades but it took one courageous mother to make the whole world sit up, watch and listen.

How about these recipes then? Looking forward to trying them out. I have a good mind to send in recipes myself to spice up the humdrum lives of our admin staff

John Monteiro
-------------------------------------------
But wait. Who would address the question? As you well know, the Goanet Admin are busy with other priorities:-))
------------------------------------------

Dear Mario, I suspect this discussion will not go beyond you and I, but I thought I'd give voice to several goanetters who have candidly admitted in private that they are bored with Goanet.

The moderators seem to cull everything remotely OFF TOPIC or sexually explicit (as if the average readership is eight years old), politically incorrect or irrelevant to Goa. Goanet has become devoid of all its former wit, humour and profundit...........So I await with
bated breath for the arrival of these women on Goanet to spice things up.....Selma
---------------------------------------
CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-05-09 13:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi John
Arising from your substantial introspective post below
(but now necessarily truncated) I believe that:

a) clarification ought to be provided to the 9000+
membership of Goanet, about the membership of the
Goanet Admin team or any other management team that
presumably exists for Goanet to function effectively.

b) identification by name of such a team(s) so that
the membership can know who has responsibility for
different functions, and especially, who can act on
recent constructive criticism about Goanet and
particularly its moderation.

c) next, publicity on the public forum should be made
available for consideration of constructive
suggestions from the Goanet membership with the main
aim of co-operatively helping to make improvements to
Goanet at this particular juncture even if this make
take some time to implement satisfactorily.

d) there is absolutely no ill-will in wanting to see
improvements in the functioning of our much esteemed
Goanet.
Cornel DaCosta
Post by JOHN MONTEIRO
We either need more of what is happening in Goa
today, yesterday and as recently as over the past
few years...surely more happens than is
permitted to be shown on Goanet, or we need to plead
with the moderators to give a little more scope, not
so many postings labelled as "inappropriate" ...
I have had several posts not accepted by Goanet
when I really could not see where I had offended
anyone, other than it was perceived as possibly
offensive, but is that not just what people do in
conversations, some subjects are taboo (or are
they?), so they are not permitted beyond just
mentioning them, but no details can be gone into.
If we have new subscribers, they may well bring up
the subject again, as did I several times when first
Post by JOHN MONTEIRO
joining but was not aware of the archives ...
some more than 2 to 5 years old...
But why cant we repeat some advice to the
newcomers or allow the newcomers to bring forth a
fresh look on an old subject, then the older
Goanetters can give sage advice.
Arwin Mesquita
2008-05-09 23:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Mario

Its easy to criticise Rajan and others working on solutions for Goa & Goans;
he is clearly spending his valuable time. Can I request that you focus
on solutions which would benefit Goa & Goans?

Arwin
Carvalho
2008-05-10 07:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Francis
When I started reading and writing on Goanet two to
three years ago,
there were almost no posts that I skipped.
------------------------------------------
Dear Roland,

I must admit I had a good laugh reading your post.
Surely, we need more humour on Goanet.

The other title for this subject line is, "how to
increase diaspora Goanetter's perspective about Goa".
The span of two to three years that we have been
posting marks a period of an accelerated downward
slide in Goa. There is this feeling of hopelessness,
being bended at the knees by builder lobbies,
over-wrought by an influx of people and a complete
breakdown in trust between people and the polity.

Perhaps it's a time of tremendous upheaval but also of
growth for Goa, one that is essential for a stronger
democracy to emerge. The fact is that Goan diaspora
have little understanding of what is going on in Goa
at the moment.

Take for instance Mario's suggestions. They are
certainly solid suggestions from a western democracy
point of view. I agree with a lot he has to say and I
myself have thought along similar lines, but to what
extent you can transfer those suggestions to the
ground realities that exist in Goa is questionable.

Of late, I have stopped having an opinion about Goa.
So removed are we from what is happening that our
opinions seem superfluous, facile, banal, irrelevant
and at times can only be construed as insolent.

So how much diaspora Goans can genuinely contribute to
this forum remains the big question.

selma


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Gilbert Lawrence
2008-05-10 13:19:32 UTC
Permalink
There is much to write about Goa and what could help Goans either in Goa or in the Diaspora.?
The Goanet writers, especially the voracious ones, who?appear?now to be?a bit tired and bored should consider the following, which has been modified. The modifications are in parenthesis.
Regards, GL
?
The Socrates Triple Filter Test
In ancient Greece , Socrates was reputed to hold knowledge in high esteem.

One day an acquaintance met the great philosopher and said, "Do you know what I just heard about your friend?"?
"Hold on a minute," Socrates replied. "Before telling me (writing) anything, I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called? the Triple Filter Test."
?
"Triple filter?"
?
"That's right," Socrates continued. "Before you talk to me (write) about my friend, (any situation) it might be a good idea to take a moment and filter what you're going to say. That's why I call it the triple filter test."
?
"The first filter is TRUTH. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?"
"No," the man said, "actually I just heard about it and..."
?
'All right," said Socrates. "So you don't really know if it's true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of GOODNESS. Is what you are about to tell me about my friend (situation) something good?"
?
"No, on the contrary..."
?
"So," Socrates continued, "you want to tell me (write) something bad about him, (the situation) but you're not certain it's true. You may still pass the test though, because there's one filter left: the filter of USEFULNESS. Is what you want to tell me (write) about my friend (the Goan situation) going to be useful to me?"
?
"No, not really."

"Well," concluded Socrates, "if what you want to tell me (write) is neither true nor good nor even useful, why tell it to me at all?"
Friends, use this triple filter each time you hear loose talk about (from)?any of your near & dear friends.?
?---------- Carvalho wrote
Of late, I have stopped having an opinion about Goa.? So removed are we from what is happening that our opinions seem superfluous, facile, banal, irrelevant and at times can only be construed as insolent.

So how much diaspora Goans can genuinely contribute to this forum remains the big question.
When I started reading and writing on Goanet two to?three years ago,?there were almost no posts that I skipped.
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Mario Goveia
2008-05-10 17:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 03:49:57 +0400
From: "Arwin Mesquita" <arwinmesquita at gmail.com>
Its easy to criticise Rajan and others working on
solutions for Goa & Goans;
Mario responds:
Did you miss the fact that I have praised Rajan on
several occasions for graphically showing us the
problem? However, I must admit it was easy to
criticise his solutions and similar solutions being
offered by others, which have no chance of prevailing
within the realities that exist in Goa.
Arwin wrote:
Can I request that you focus on solutions which would
benefit Goa & Goans?
Mario responds:
Sure you can, Arwin, but I'm not sure why you are
requesting what I have already provided. However, if
your understanding of what I write is the same as your
understanding of the difference between a state within
a country and a country, you will certainly miss the
fact that I am the only one on Goanet who has a
practical and workable solution on the table and have
had one since the following post. In the meantime
Santosh and others have demolished your side of the
argument under a torrent of sarcasm:
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-April/072036.html
Once you grasp the difference between Goa and another
country, perhaps you will begin to understand that I
am a generation ahead of you and that the goal of my
practical solutions is a balance between development
and local control over the local environment and a
win-win situation for everyone, not just an ongoing
power struggle between the haves and the have-nots
that leads to a lot of heat but no light.
Mario Goveia
2008-05-10 18:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 18:55:27 -0400
From: "Roland Francis" <roland.francis at gmail.com>
Accidents on the rise in Merces (and are they going
down in the rest of Goa)
Invitation to participate in Youth Conference
(privately send to Clinton Vaz)
Two new uploads on MAND blog (are we going to be told
about downloads as well)
Mama Cool party at Clube Gaspar Dias (Mama Africa
would interest me more)
Educomp launches MagiKeys at Goa IT conclave. (Inform
the Vatican, it might be of use at their next
conclave)
Oh my, oh my, the excitement needs to be ramped up
more than a little. Even Mario Goveia has been tamed.
Mario responds, obviously untamed:-))
Not so fast, Roland.
As someone who has earned the ire of Goa-centric
Goanetters far longer than you and Selma might for
suggesting an expansion of Goanet's perspective, I
must ask you to show some more respect for what our
Goanetter sisters and brothers around the world would
like to say on Goanet.
Don't you understand the concept of a "cyber-forum",
which is what Goanet is, only with an emphasis on Goa?
A forum is the ultimate in free speech - enlightened
or cow cakes depending on your individual point of
view or mood du jour.
Imagine a real forum in one of the Panjim gardens with
groups engaged in discussions all around you. You
stroll around and hear about the accidents in Merces
being on the rise. If you have any sense you would
learn to be more careful the next time you pass
through Merces. You wonder whether a MAND blog is
something you step over on the pavement and hear about
Clinton's conference and wonder if you should attend
or not. You decide you're too old for a Youth
Conference:-)) The next time Ethel is in Africa you
might well get a report on Mama Africa and the local
Goans who were in attendance. You obviously have no
idea what a cool place Clube Gaspar Dias is. Your
days to attend a MagiKeys conference are probably long
gone, but your kids may be interested.
You certainly can post your own series of boring
reports - for the rest of us, we won't object - on the
Goan conference that will soon take place in Toronto,
or any other news that may have some relevance to
Goans, but certainly not the Irish or West Indies
Festival down the road from you.
From my knowledge of Toronto, one could have a Goan
forum just for that area, that is if you guys can
overlook for one moment your internecine revalries
between African Goans and Pakistani Goans and Gulf
Goans and every garden variety of Goan who all pretend
they are superior to each other as well as the real
thing, which is Indian Goans. Is that tame enough for
you?:-))
The point is that no one is forced to join in any of
the discussions going on. You listen, you join or you
move on.
You may stay awhile to explain to Arwin and Jane what
the difference is between Goa and the USA, then move
on to assure Rajan and Floriano that we would be glad
to elect them President and Vice President the minute
Goa separates from India, and Arwin as Minister of
Migrant Affairs, then take Mervyn aside and ask him
what he has against Goa that he would like them to
become like N. Korea, Cuba and Zimbabwe, then stroll
on to explain to Gabe that you are making a bundle by
shopping in Buffalo, the prices are a steal right now,
and have noticed that the US is not yet going to hell
in a handbasket economically, not even in a recession
yet, but close, and how they LOVE their Canadian
customers, ...er, neighbors, then join Gilbert in
passionate discussion with Cornel about the wisdom or
lack thereof of maintaing what is a mythical "Goan
identity" in the diaspora.
Stay away from Kevin - he will either convert you or
turn you into a vegan now that the UN has given him a
boatload of new ammunition:-))
If there is nothing of interst going on, you join
Cecil and me in the nearest cyber-tavern for a brew -
he with a tall Feni, I with a Bud because I'm already
out of the Feni I brought less than three months ago,
and you with a bottle of Molson Light:-))
That's how a REAL forum of your fellow men and women
works - it is what it is, and you make of it what you
can.
Santosh Helekar
2008-05-11 07:10:28 UTC
Permalink
In the meantime Santosh and others have demolished
I have merely taken the impractical and misguided
notions of insulating Goa from outsiders and
preserving the myth of a unique Goan identity, to
their logical conclusion. In this respect, my
contention is two-fold:
1. The real solution to the problem of indiscriminate
use and misuse of land does not require us to militate
against non-Goans.

2. There is no basis for a single homogeneous Goan
identity that can be or needs to be preserved. The
identity of each Goan social group, which there are a
legion, differs significantly based on religion,
caste, subcaste, taluka, village and vaddo. Rajan's
cultural identity is not the same as that of Romlo or
Remo. My neighbors in Chimbel speak four different
dialects of Konknni, and have as many distinct sets of
rites and mores.

What needs to be preserved and promoted, therefore, is
our language, literature, art, music and the wholesome
traditions and cultural practices of all the
multifarious Goan communities. At the same time we
need to weed out harmful elements of our culture,
along with xenophobic and intolerant attitudes.

My personal experience has been that non-Goans who
permanently settle in Goa can do all of this as well
as any native Goan, let alone a theatrical Goan
cyber-chauvinist.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mario Goveia
2008-05-11 22:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:41:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Take for instance Mario's suggestions. They are
certainly solid suggestions from a western democracy
point of view. I agree with a lot he has to say and I
myself have thought along similar lines, but to what
extent you can transfer those suggestions to the
ground realities that exist in Goa is questionable.
Mario asks:
Selmabai,
So, what are you saying? That the enlightened western
democracies are "solid" in their approach while the
hapless Goans are not? The answer is, if they are
not, perhaps it is high time they moved in that
direction, before it's too late.
According to you and Chris, a system that has worked
well in all the civilized democratic societies in the
world in balancing the interests of local environments
and citizens with economic developers will not work in
democratic Goa due to the "ground realities". Even
though it has never been tried and it now takes
wasteful economic activity by developers followed by
mass public protests to get anything done or undone in
Goa?
Are you suggesting that these "ground realities"
include stupidity? I have been assuming a higher
level of intelligence and self-interest than you
apparently are assuming.
Selma writes:
Of late, I have stopped having an opinion about Goa.
So removed are we from what is happening that our
opinions seem superfluous, facile, banal, irrelevant
and at times can only be construed as insolent.
Mario responds:
So, behind the beautiful big words, aren't you really
saying "let's run and hide our heads in the sand"?
Let's not give them ideas we know of, of provable
solutions that have worked everywhere else, that they
haven't yet tried, because the "ground reality" is
that they are too stupid or lazy?
Selma writes:
So how much diaspora Goans can genuinely contribute to
this forum remains the big question.
Mario responds:
It all depends on the contribution, doesn't it?
"There are no simple solutions. Only intelligent
choices." - Caterpillar Tractor Company.
Carvalho
2008-05-12 07:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
"There are no simple solutions. Only intelligent
choices." - Caterpillar Tractor Company.
--------------------------------------
Coincidentally my father worked for Caterpillar for
some 30 odd years. In those days in the Gulf, there
certainly weren't any simple solutions, just choices
to be made, mostly out of necessity than anything
else.

But enough about me :-)
Like I said the solutions you propose are solid but
western democracies are premised on certain things,
like:

a) A robust state education system which allows some
measure of an equitable playing field.
b) The bell of the population being middle-class.
c) Respect for the rule of law.

Not that I want to give undue credit to the West, for
they've had five hundred years to develop these
institutions amply aided by the wealth they hauled
from their colonies. Goa on the other hand, has been
under colonial rule for the past 500 years with little
to no experience in managing a democracy. Democracies
don't exist in a vacuum, they are held together
precariously by its institutions, and colonial powers
did very little to put these in place.

Ofcourse one can talk about the free hand of
capitalism making intelligent decisions, but
capitalism's free hand is rather like a Pathan's free
hand in a crowded Arabian fish market. It doesn't know
its boundaries unless guided by the law and
unfortunately the law is non-existent in Goa at the
moment.

Goa is undergoing a very important and almost
inescapable lesson in democracy. That the peasants
will hold the monarch accountable for his actions.
Once the powers that be learn this lesson, things take
a dramatic turn for the better. I believe the upheaval
taking place in Goa today will create the very basis
of democracy.

selma


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Mario Goveia
2008-05-12 15:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 00:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Not that I want to give undue credit to the West, for
they've had five hundred years to develop these
institutions amply aided by the wealth they hauled
from their colonies.
Mario responds:
Why not give credit where credit is due? So what if
"the west" took five hundred years to develop their
systems? That means we could SAVE five hundred years
by copying their systems instead of either
re-inventing the wheel or the nutty unworkable ideas
that so many on Goanet are wasting their time on.
Does anyone with more than half a brain on this forum
think they are going to STOP development in Goa, or
impose authoritarian separatist Marxist solutions
which will only work successfully if we make Floriano
and Rajan President and Vice President, and not
someone like my neighbor Babush?
Selma writes:
Goa on the other hand, has been under colonial rule
for the past 500 years with little to no experience in
managing a democracy. Democracies don't exist in a
vacuum, they are held together precariously by its
institutions, and colonial powers did very little to
put these in place.
Mario responds:
What a sad, pathetic ex-colonial excuse which also
makes no sense. Goa has had 47 years now of
uninterrupted democracy which is enough time to copy
all the sensible policies that the west took five
hundred years to develop. If we could catch up and
even surpass the west in many fields of engineering,
which is far more difficult, then certainly we could
have done this in civil administration.
If Indian engineers can use their brains, why can't
everyone else?
Selma wrote:
Of course one can talk about the free hand of
capitalism making intelligent decisions, but
capitalism's free hand is rather like a Pathan's free
hand in a crowded Arabian fish market. It doesn't know
its boundaries unless guided by the law and
unfortunately the law is non-existent in Goa at the
moment.
Mario responds:
Selma, wake up, it is morning on Goanet:-)) What have
you been reading? Soon Fr. Ivo will be telling you
that you are understanding "EXACTLY THE CONTRARY" of
what I have been writing. And this time he will be
right.
Your prattling on about untrammeled capitalism and
Pathans in fish markets shows you have not understood
a word about what I have been recommending or the
zoning laws I have been describing.
Wait a minute. How did a Pathan find his way to an
Arabian fish market? But I digress.
Aye, aye, aye! Yes, zoning laws are non-existent in
Goa, WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT. They need to be passed
across Goa, at the Panchayat and Gram Sabha level.
Authoritarian separatist Marxist rule is also
non-existent in Goa, but I don't see you objecting to
the emotional, frustrated calls for that kind of
nonsense.
Which do you think is a) easier to implement in Goa,
and b) more likely to work?
Selma wrote:
Goa is undergoing a very important and almost
inescapable lesson in democracy. That the peasants
will hold the monarch accountable for his actions.
Once the powers that be learn this lesson, things take
a dramatic turn for the better. I believe the upheaval
taking place in Goa today will create the very basis
of democracy.
Mario responds:
Knock! Knock! Hello! Anyone home?:-))
The upheaval going on in Goa is moving in "EXACTLY THE
CONTRARY" direction: massive, wasteful, emotional
civil protests to STOP development. They have no
choice right now but to STOP development BECAUSE THERE
IS NO FRAMEWORK FOR CONTROLLING AND RATIONALIZING
DEVELOPMENT.
Every project is a huge power struggle with winners
and losers. Mostly the citizens are losing as we can
see from Rajan's pictures. No one is thinking in the
direction of a routine process that is a win-win
situation for everyone without needless wasteful
activity by both developers and citizens.
WHICH IS WHAT ZONING LAWS ARE ALL ABOUT.
Carvalho
2008-05-13 10:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Authoritarian separatist Marxist rule is also
non-existent in Goa, but I don't see you objecting
to
the emotional, frustrated calls for that kind of
nonsense.
-------------------------------

Dear Mario,
I'll leave you to prattle on about zoning laws in Goa.
Obviously you are unaware that hundreds of laws exist
in India and in Goa, but the problem is none of these
are adhered.

Now, coming you your assertion that I am in tacit
approval of a Marxist, separatist state, obviously you
have not been reading my posts or preferring not to
understand the content of them. I have never embraced
Marxist ideology nor called for the seceding of Goa. I
am a Nehruvian nationalist.

Secondly I have never been what is popularly refered
to in Goa as "anti-development". While you were away,
it was just Philip Thomas and me, keeping the
capatilist voice alive. The "anti-development" stance
is extremely short-sighted and misguided.

For instance, Panjim had a good opportunity to convert
one of the older medical building into a shopping
arcade. Due to the misguided sentiments of some Goan
doctors, this project was impaled in the heart and
discarded. Well, you and I both know that the
conservation of heritage building in the West, is
dependent almost entirely on shopping arcades, hotels,
bars and restaurants or antique galleries taking them
on, restoring them, preserving aspects of their
architecture (usually the facade) and remodeling the
rest to operate as commercial ventures.

Goans have to compromise, they have to recognise what
is a true investment opportunity and what is not. I
don't want to be insolent enough to suggest what is
best for Goa, but I do agree with you that from an
outsider's perspective, the "anti-development"
backlash that is going on, will be absolutely be
detrimental to Goa in the long term.

selma

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