Discussion:
VM's ignorance
(too old to reply)
Rui Collaco
2004-09-12 18:42:49 UTC
Permalink
VM is really furious now! Just look at the tone of his message! He knows
all, and he does not tolerate dissent. His DNA is superior. One can see he
is not used to being challenged. He wants to reign supreme and have the
final word. But I am going to spoil the party for him. This chap must be
very aggressive and uneducated. And he certainly is very ignorant too!
Otherwise please check:

Portugal is one of the oldest nations of Europe. Its independence dates from
1143. No historian ever disputed that. VM does. For him, a
"theocratically-minded kingdom" cannot be a nation! Neither can a
dictatorship! Which means that modern Israel, a theocratic state, is not a
nation! And Iraq, under Saddam's dictatorship wasn't a nation either! One is
amazed by such a public display of sheer ignorance by someone who is so full
of himself and his views! VM is in dire need of some schooling. To begin
with, he could ask any schoolteacher the definition of "nation". Then of
"theocracy" and "dictatorship", and then how that affects nationhood. Just
might be too much for his feeble mind.

Yes, Goans were forcibly converted. That's history, however tragic it may
be. My ancestors certainly were converted by force. But for me that's the
past. I have no problems with that, no identity crisis. I don't feel the
pain of my Hindu ancestors. VM has a problem with that too. Which makes him
all the more troubled. I suppose he is Catholic and bears a Portuguese
surname, most probably. Only Catholics write the kind of rubbish as seen in
VM's postings. So I am compelled to ask him and pose him a challenge: You
are a suffering person, have you considered going back to hinduism and
getting rid of your surname? I believe people should be coherent with their
attitudes. The Portuguese must have done horrible things to your family.
Damn criminals! They converted you, they gave you a Portuguese surname,
presumably, and they instilled their western culture in your superior being.
Perhaps they tampered with your intellect too, making it as flawed as it is.
Well, get rid of it, VM, AND BE HAPPY! It's easy, and for you it should also
be painless. You belong to Cornel's fraternity, and the recipe is the same.
Abandon the Portuguese legacy, all of it, and just get off the backs of
those Goans who are happy being what they are, Portuguese legacy included!
My 63 year old mother was born and bred in Loutulim-Goa, she speaks
Portuguese and Konkani perfectly and she is Catholic, besides always having
been a Portuguese citizen. I am sure she is a better and more genuine Goan
than you will ever be. At least she does not hide her identity behind two
initials and she displays her Goanness in a free and dignified manner, with
a positive attitude that does not imply negating any part of what she is and
has always been. I would not even bother to tell her that there is this
troubled bloke who considers her as "cultural detritus". You talk about the
Portuguese as if your ancestors had been carted off as slaves to work in the
plantations of the Caribbean islands, as the British did to so many Indians.
If you are a Goan, that certainly did not happen. Which makes me wonder why
relatively privileged Goans have produced so many misfits like VM. In this
era of globalisation, VM is still crying about the conversion of his
ancestors. What a depressing state of affairs! One of these days he'll be
claiming compensation from Portugal, the latest
fashion among lunatics! Grow up VM, wake up to the real world, including
Portugal. It takes a bold step in that direction and a quantum of
intelligence. To begin with you could stop being a ghost immersed in the
past!

To compound all his problems, VM has no notion of proportion. He compares
some hundreds of Goans in France with the number of goans in Portugal. Well,
every suburb of Lisbon has hundreds or thousands of Goans. And they are
spread all over this country and its 11 atlantic islands. One can only laugh
at such ridiculous and parochial comparisons. It's VM's concept of "data".
For me I'm done with this sickening chap. I am going to press the flush
button. I hope he goes down with the water.
No point in trying to correct his biased views. That's for specialists.

Burro velho n?o aprende l?ngua nova. O pior cego ? aquele que n?o quer ver.

Rui Colla?o

Lisboa


V M <_vm_ at yahoo.com>
Fellow-netters,
One wonders, after reading yet another lengthy and
weepy screed written by a Luso-Indian, how did it
happen that presumably normal intellects can remain so
resistant to commonly available facts? How is it that
history can be ignored, simple data defended against
as though it is the doings of Mephistopheles? Why is
it that the knee-jerk reaction is always the same
absurd parroting of mediocre public relations
propaganda about Portugal?
Early in the colonial experience in Goa, the
Portuguese misadventurers figured out a way to create
permanent turncoats and quislings. In the process of
(usually forced) conversion, a harsh and total
cleaving from the native community was demanded. It
was not enough that a Goan professed faith to his new
religion, he was summarily tonsured and clothed ?
forcibly and permanently ? in the climatically
inappropriate manner of the Portuguese. The new
convert was forced to immediately consume beef and
pork and sometimes alcohol ? his domestic architecture
was mandated, the way he wore his hair was mandated,
it was not enough for him to be a Christian or a
?good? colonial, he had to become ? in several key
ways ? even more Portuguese than the resident
Portuguese who were granted more lassitude in their
affairs.
This is the colonial experience that comes to mind
when we read these rather painful, forced and
hopelessly unfactual public relations screeds about
Portugal, the whole effect made more unpalatable when
paired with patently absurd and occasionally racist
diatribes against the mother community which was
unfortunate enough to lend its incontrovertible DNA to
the zealous new converts.
One is tempted to fully ignore the public relations
drivel, after all every response is met with more
tears and gentlemen don?t like to observe grown adults
cry in public.
However, some things do need to be dismissed since
they are not just drivel but astonishingly free of any
basis in fact or analysis.
1) The appallingly false claim was made that Goans
have been a ?fully integrated? ?part and parcel? of
the Portuguese ?nation? for over four centuries. This
is the kind of meretricious avoidance of history that
does not bode well for Portugal as a potentially
free-thinking society.
First, being colonial subjects of a brutal and racist
regime does not translate to anything like
integration. Second, there has been no Portuguese
?nation? to speak about except very recently ? it was
a theocratically-minded kingdom for centuries, then a
total Stalinist-type dictatorship well into the
1970?s, a troubled attempted-democracy for another few
years and now thanks to EC welfare funds starts to
resemble a proper republic.
Third, the absolutely disgusting implication that
Goans were in any way happy and accepting of their
status as second-class colonial subjects ignores every
fact of our past five centuries. It's like saying that
the victims of Apartheid who lived in Soweto in the
50's and 60's were "fully integrated" into the South
African "nation."
One must advise the public relations flack to stop
reading directives from the Portuguese tourism board
and go look up some figures and events from Goan
history ? maybe start with the Pinto rebellion,
Matheus de Castro Mahale, Tristao Braganza Cunha and
then maybe we can come back and start another reading
list.
2) The claims that there are vast numbers of Goans in
Portugal are provably false. There are not, not by any
useful definition. Secondly, the claim that Goans
don?t migrate to Portugal because of language issues
is also unlikely ? there are (I?d bet) as many Goans
in Montreal as there are in any city in Portugal and
language does not hold them back. There are hundreds
of Goans in France, and a whole small community in
Rome. Language does not hold them back.
The reason the Goan community in Portugal is so tiny
and dwindling is that Goans - very reasonably and
accurately - do not consider migration to Portugal to
be particularly advantageous. Finally, the claim that
many young Goans have moved to Portugal in recent
years is also (anecdotally) false. There are in fact,
very very few and those that do pursue Portuguese
citizenship do so because it is a stepping stone to a
preferred destination.
VM
Goans in Portugal are and have
always been (for more than 4 centuries now) part and
parcel >of this nation.
They are fully integrated in this country, they are
citizens, not
i>mmigrants, they do not have a sense of belonging to
any minority community
and only a tiny fraction of them feels the need to be
associated with Casa
de Goa.
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
_________________________________________________________________
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Rui Collaco
2004-09-12 18:42:49 UTC
Permalink
VM is really furious now! Just look at the tone of his message! He knows
all, and he does not tolerate dissent. His DNA is superior. One can see he
is not used to being challenged. He wants to reign supreme and have the
final word. But I am going to spoil the party for him. This chap must be
very aggressive and uneducated. And he certainly is very ignorant too!
Otherwise please check:

Portugal is one of the oldest nations of Europe. Its independence dates from
1143. No historian ever disputed that. VM does. For him, a
"theocratically-minded kingdom" cannot be a nation! Neither can a
dictatorship! Which means that modern Israel, a theocratic state, is not a
nation! And Iraq, under Saddam's dictatorship wasn't a nation either! One is
amazed by such a public display of sheer ignorance by someone who is so full
of himself and his views! VM is in dire need of some schooling. To begin
with, he could ask any schoolteacher the definition of "nation". Then of
"theocracy" and "dictatorship", and then how that affects nationhood. Just
might be too much for his feeble mind.

Yes, Goans were forcibly converted. That's history, however tragic it may
be. My ancestors certainly were converted by force. But for me that's the
past. I have no problems with that, no identity crisis. I don't feel the
pain of my Hindu ancestors. VM has a problem with that too. Which makes him
all the more troubled. I suppose he is Catholic and bears a Portuguese
surname, most probably. Only Catholics write the kind of rubbish as seen in
VM's postings. So I am compelled to ask him and pose him a challenge: You
are a suffering person, have you considered going back to hinduism and
getting rid of your surname? I believe people should be coherent with their
attitudes. The Portuguese must have done horrible things to your family.
Damn criminals! They converted you, they gave you a Portuguese surname,
presumably, and they instilled their western culture in your superior being.
Perhaps they tampered with your intellect too, making it as flawed as it is.
Well, get rid of it, VM, AND BE HAPPY! It's easy, and for you it should also
be painless. You belong to Cornel's fraternity, and the recipe is the same.
Abandon the Portuguese legacy, all of it, and just get off the backs of
those Goans who are happy being what they are, Portuguese legacy included!
My 63 year old mother was born and bred in Loutulim-Goa, she speaks
Portuguese and Konkani perfectly and she is Catholic, besides always having
been a Portuguese citizen. I am sure she is a better and more genuine Goan
than you will ever be. At least she does not hide her identity behind two
initials and she displays her Goanness in a free and dignified manner, with
a positive attitude that does not imply negating any part of what she is and
has always been. I would not even bother to tell her that there is this
troubled bloke who considers her as "cultural detritus". You talk about the
Portuguese as if your ancestors had been carted off as slaves to work in the
plantations of the Caribbean islands, as the British did to so many Indians.
If you are a Goan, that certainly did not happen. Which makes me wonder why
relatively privileged Goans have produced so many misfits like VM. In this
era of globalisation, VM is still crying about the conversion of his
ancestors. What a depressing state of affairs! One of these days he'll be
claiming compensation from Portugal, the latest
fashion among lunatics! Grow up VM, wake up to the real world, including
Portugal. It takes a bold step in that direction and a quantum of
intelligence. To begin with you could stop being a ghost immersed in the
past!

To compound all his problems, VM has no notion of proportion. He compares
some hundreds of Goans in France with the number of goans in Portugal. Well,
every suburb of Lisbon has hundreds or thousands of Goans. And they are
spread all over this country and its 11 atlantic islands. One can only laugh
at such ridiculous and parochial comparisons. It's VM's concept of "data".
For me I'm done with this sickening chap. I am going to press the flush
button. I hope he goes down with the water.
No point in trying to correct his biased views. That's for specialists.

Burro velho n?o aprende l?ngua nova. O pior cego ? aquele que n?o quer ver.

Rui Colla?o

Lisboa


V M <_vm_ at yahoo.com>
Fellow-netters,
One wonders, after reading yet another lengthy and
weepy screed written by a Luso-Indian, how did it
happen that presumably normal intellects can remain so
resistant to commonly available facts? How is it that
history can be ignored, simple data defended against
as though it is the doings of Mephistopheles? Why is
it that the knee-jerk reaction is always the same
absurd parroting of mediocre public relations
propaganda about Portugal?
Early in the colonial experience in Goa, the
Portuguese misadventurers figured out a way to create
permanent turncoats and quislings. In the process of
(usually forced) conversion, a harsh and total
cleaving from the native community was demanded. It
was not enough that a Goan professed faith to his new
religion, he was summarily tonsured and clothed ?
forcibly and permanently ? in the climatically
inappropriate manner of the Portuguese. The new
convert was forced to immediately consume beef and
pork and sometimes alcohol ? his domestic architecture
was mandated, the way he wore his hair was mandated,
it was not enough for him to be a Christian or a
?good? colonial, he had to become ? in several key
ways ? even more Portuguese than the resident
Portuguese who were granted more lassitude in their
affairs.
This is the colonial experience that comes to mind
when we read these rather painful, forced and
hopelessly unfactual public relations screeds about
Portugal, the whole effect made more unpalatable when
paired with patently absurd and occasionally racist
diatribes against the mother community which was
unfortunate enough to lend its incontrovertible DNA to
the zealous new converts.
One is tempted to fully ignore the public relations
drivel, after all every response is met with more
tears and gentlemen don?t like to observe grown adults
cry in public.
However, some things do need to be dismissed since
they are not just drivel but astonishingly free of any
basis in fact or analysis.
1) The appallingly false claim was made that Goans
have been a ?fully integrated? ?part and parcel? of
the Portuguese ?nation? for over four centuries. This
is the kind of meretricious avoidance of history that
does not bode well for Portugal as a potentially
free-thinking society.
First, being colonial subjects of a brutal and racist
regime does not translate to anything like
integration. Second, there has been no Portuguese
?nation? to speak about except very recently ? it was
a theocratically-minded kingdom for centuries, then a
total Stalinist-type dictatorship well into the
1970?s, a troubled attempted-democracy for another few
years and now thanks to EC welfare funds starts to
resemble a proper republic.
Third, the absolutely disgusting implication that
Goans were in any way happy and accepting of their
status as second-class colonial subjects ignores every
fact of our past five centuries. It's like saying that
the victims of Apartheid who lived in Soweto in the
50's and 60's were "fully integrated" into the South
African "nation."
One must advise the public relations flack to stop
reading directives from the Portuguese tourism board
and go look up some figures and events from Goan
history ? maybe start with the Pinto rebellion,
Matheus de Castro Mahale, Tristao Braganza Cunha and
then maybe we can come back and start another reading
list.
2) The claims that there are vast numbers of Goans in
Portugal are provably false. There are not, not by any
useful definition. Secondly, the claim that Goans
don?t migrate to Portugal because of language issues
is also unlikely ? there are (I?d bet) as many Goans
in Montreal as there are in any city in Portugal and
language does not hold them back. There are hundreds
of Goans in France, and a whole small community in
Rome. Language does not hold them back.
The reason the Goan community in Portugal is so tiny
and dwindling is that Goans - very reasonably and
accurately - do not consider migration to Portugal to
be particularly advantageous. Finally, the claim that
many young Goans have moved to Portugal in recent
years is also (anecdotally) false. There are in fact,
very very few and those that do pursue Portuguese
citizenship do so because it is a stepping stone to a
preferred destination.
VM
Goans in Portugal are and have
always been (for more than 4 centuries now) part and
parcel >of this nation.
They are fully integrated in this country, they are
citizens, not
i>mmigrants, they do not have a sense of belonging to
any minority community
and only a tiny fraction of them feels the need to be
associated with Casa
de Goa.
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Rui Collaco
2004-09-12 18:42:49 UTC
Permalink
VM is really furious now! Just look at the tone of his message! He knows
all, and he does not tolerate dissent. His DNA is superior. One can see he
is not used to being challenged. He wants to reign supreme and have the
final word. But I am going to spoil the party for him. This chap must be
very aggressive and uneducated. And he certainly is very ignorant too!
Otherwise please check:

Portugal is one of the oldest nations of Europe. Its independence dates from
1143. No historian ever disputed that. VM does. For him, a
"theocratically-minded kingdom" cannot be a nation! Neither can a
dictatorship! Which means that modern Israel, a theocratic state, is not a
nation! And Iraq, under Saddam's dictatorship wasn't a nation either! One is
amazed by such a public display of sheer ignorance by someone who is so full
of himself and his views! VM is in dire need of some schooling. To begin
with, he could ask any schoolteacher the definition of "nation". Then of
"theocracy" and "dictatorship", and then how that affects nationhood. Just
might be too much for his feeble mind.

Yes, Goans were forcibly converted. That's history, however tragic it may
be. My ancestors certainly were converted by force. But for me that's the
past. I have no problems with that, no identity crisis. I don't feel the
pain of my Hindu ancestors. VM has a problem with that too. Which makes him
all the more troubled. I suppose he is Catholic and bears a Portuguese
surname, most probably. Only Catholics write the kind of rubbish as seen in
VM's postings. So I am compelled to ask him and pose him a challenge: You
are a suffering person, have you considered going back to hinduism and
getting rid of your surname? I believe people should be coherent with their
attitudes. The Portuguese must have done horrible things to your family.
Damn criminals! They converted you, they gave you a Portuguese surname,
presumably, and they instilled their western culture in your superior being.
Perhaps they tampered with your intellect too, making it as flawed as it is.
Well, get rid of it, VM, AND BE HAPPY! It's easy, and for you it should also
be painless. You belong to Cornel's fraternity, and the recipe is the same.
Abandon the Portuguese legacy, all of it, and just get off the backs of
those Goans who are happy being what they are, Portuguese legacy included!
My 63 year old mother was born and bred in Loutulim-Goa, she speaks
Portuguese and Konkani perfectly and she is Catholic, besides always having
been a Portuguese citizen. I am sure she is a better and more genuine Goan
than you will ever be. At least she does not hide her identity behind two
initials and she displays her Goanness in a free and dignified manner, with
a positive attitude that does not imply negating any part of what she is and
has always been. I would not even bother to tell her that there is this
troubled bloke who considers her as "cultural detritus". You talk about the
Portuguese as if your ancestors had been carted off as slaves to work in the
plantations of the Caribbean islands, as the British did to so many Indians.
If you are a Goan, that certainly did not happen. Which makes me wonder why
relatively privileged Goans have produced so many misfits like VM. In this
era of globalisation, VM is still crying about the conversion of his
ancestors. What a depressing state of affairs! One of these days he'll be
claiming compensation from Portugal, the latest
fashion among lunatics! Grow up VM, wake up to the real world, including
Portugal. It takes a bold step in that direction and a quantum of
intelligence. To begin with you could stop being a ghost immersed in the
past!

To compound all his problems, VM has no notion of proportion. He compares
some hundreds of Goans in France with the number of goans in Portugal. Well,
every suburb of Lisbon has hundreds or thousands of Goans. And they are
spread all over this country and its 11 atlantic islands. One can only laugh
at such ridiculous and parochial comparisons. It's VM's concept of "data".
For me I'm done with this sickening chap. I am going to press the flush
button. I hope he goes down with the water.
No point in trying to correct his biased views. That's for specialists.

Burro velho n?o aprende l?ngua nova. O pior cego ? aquele que n?o quer ver.

Rui Colla?o

Lisboa


V M <_vm_ at yahoo.com>
Fellow-netters,
One wonders, after reading yet another lengthy and
weepy screed written by a Luso-Indian, how did it
happen that presumably normal intellects can remain so
resistant to commonly available facts? How is it that
history can be ignored, simple data defended against
as though it is the doings of Mephistopheles? Why is
it that the knee-jerk reaction is always the same
absurd parroting of mediocre public relations
propaganda about Portugal?
Early in the colonial experience in Goa, the
Portuguese misadventurers figured out a way to create
permanent turncoats and quislings. In the process of
(usually forced) conversion, a harsh and total
cleaving from the native community was demanded. It
was not enough that a Goan professed faith to his new
religion, he was summarily tonsured and clothed ?
forcibly and permanently ? in the climatically
inappropriate manner of the Portuguese. The new
convert was forced to immediately consume beef and
pork and sometimes alcohol ? his domestic architecture
was mandated, the way he wore his hair was mandated,
it was not enough for him to be a Christian or a
?good? colonial, he had to become ? in several key
ways ? even more Portuguese than the resident
Portuguese who were granted more lassitude in their
affairs.
This is the colonial experience that comes to mind
when we read these rather painful, forced and
hopelessly unfactual public relations screeds about
Portugal, the whole effect made more unpalatable when
paired with patently absurd and occasionally racist
diatribes against the mother community which was
unfortunate enough to lend its incontrovertible DNA to
the zealous new converts.
One is tempted to fully ignore the public relations
drivel, after all every response is met with more
tears and gentlemen don?t like to observe grown adults
cry in public.
However, some things do need to be dismissed since
they are not just drivel but astonishingly free of any
basis in fact or analysis.
1) The appallingly false claim was made that Goans
have been a ?fully integrated? ?part and parcel? of
the Portuguese ?nation? for over four centuries. This
is the kind of meretricious avoidance of history that
does not bode well for Portugal as a potentially
free-thinking society.
First, being colonial subjects of a brutal and racist
regime does not translate to anything like
integration. Second, there has been no Portuguese
?nation? to speak about except very recently ? it was
a theocratically-minded kingdom for centuries, then a
total Stalinist-type dictatorship well into the
1970?s, a troubled attempted-democracy for another few
years and now thanks to EC welfare funds starts to
resemble a proper republic.
Third, the absolutely disgusting implication that
Goans were in any way happy and accepting of their
status as second-class colonial subjects ignores every
fact of our past five centuries. It's like saying that
the victims of Apartheid who lived in Soweto in the
50's and 60's were "fully integrated" into the South
African "nation."
One must advise the public relations flack to stop
reading directives from the Portuguese tourism board
and go look up some figures and events from Goan
history ? maybe start with the Pinto rebellion,
Matheus de Castro Mahale, Tristao Braganza Cunha and
then maybe we can come back and start another reading
list.
2) The claims that there are vast numbers of Goans in
Portugal are provably false. There are not, not by any
useful definition. Secondly, the claim that Goans
don?t migrate to Portugal because of language issues
is also unlikely ? there are (I?d bet) as many Goans
in Montreal as there are in any city in Portugal and
language does not hold them back. There are hundreds
of Goans in France, and a whole small community in
Rome. Language does not hold them back.
The reason the Goan community in Portugal is so tiny
and dwindling is that Goans - very reasonably and
accurately - do not consider migration to Portugal to
be particularly advantageous. Finally, the claim that
many young Goans have moved to Portugal in recent
years is also (anecdotally) false. There are in fact,
very very few and those that do pursue Portuguese
citizenship do so because it is a stepping stone to a
preferred destination.
VM
Goans in Portugal are and have
always been (for more than 4 centuries now) part and
parcel >of this nation.
They are fully integrated in this country, they are
citizens, not
i>mmigrants, they do not have a sense of belonging to
any minority community
and only a tiny fraction of them feels the need to be
associated with Casa
de Goa.
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Rui Collaco
2004-09-12 18:42:49 UTC
Permalink
VM is really furious now! Just look at the tone of his message! He knows
all, and he does not tolerate dissent. His DNA is superior. One can see he
is not used to being challenged. He wants to reign supreme and have the
final word. But I am going to spoil the party for him. This chap must be
very aggressive and uneducated. And he certainly is very ignorant too!
Otherwise please check:

Portugal is one of the oldest nations of Europe. Its independence dates from
1143. No historian ever disputed that. VM does. For him, a
"theocratically-minded kingdom" cannot be a nation! Neither can a
dictatorship! Which means that modern Israel, a theocratic state, is not a
nation! And Iraq, under Saddam's dictatorship wasn't a nation either! One is
amazed by such a public display of sheer ignorance by someone who is so full
of himself and his views! VM is in dire need of some schooling. To begin
with, he could ask any schoolteacher the definition of "nation". Then of
"theocracy" and "dictatorship", and then how that affects nationhood. Just
might be too much for his feeble mind.

Yes, Goans were forcibly converted. That's history, however tragic it may
be. My ancestors certainly were converted by force. But for me that's the
past. I have no problems with that, no identity crisis. I don't feel the
pain of my Hindu ancestors. VM has a problem with that too. Which makes him
all the more troubled. I suppose he is Catholic and bears a Portuguese
surname, most probably. Only Catholics write the kind of rubbish as seen in
VM's postings. So I am compelled to ask him and pose him a challenge: You
are a suffering person, have you considered going back to hinduism and
getting rid of your surname? I believe people should be coherent with their
attitudes. The Portuguese must have done horrible things to your family.
Damn criminals! They converted you, they gave you a Portuguese surname,
presumably, and they instilled their western culture in your superior being.
Perhaps they tampered with your intellect too, making it as flawed as it is.
Well, get rid of it, VM, AND BE HAPPY! It's easy, and for you it should also
be painless. You belong to Cornel's fraternity, and the recipe is the same.
Abandon the Portuguese legacy, all of it, and just get off the backs of
those Goans who are happy being what they are, Portuguese legacy included!
My 63 year old mother was born and bred in Loutulim-Goa, she speaks
Portuguese and Konkani perfectly and she is Catholic, besides always having
been a Portuguese citizen. I am sure she is a better and more genuine Goan
than you will ever be. At least she does not hide her identity behind two
initials and she displays her Goanness in a free and dignified manner, with
a positive attitude that does not imply negating any part of what she is and
has always been. I would not even bother to tell her that there is this
troubled bloke who considers her as "cultural detritus". You talk about the
Portuguese as if your ancestors had been carted off as slaves to work in the
plantations of the Caribbean islands, as the British did to so many Indians.
If you are a Goan, that certainly did not happen. Which makes me wonder why
relatively privileged Goans have produced so many misfits like VM. In this
era of globalisation, VM is still crying about the conversion of his
ancestors. What a depressing state of affairs! One of these days he'll be
claiming compensation from Portugal, the latest
fashion among lunatics! Grow up VM, wake up to the real world, including
Portugal. It takes a bold step in that direction and a quantum of
intelligence. To begin with you could stop being a ghost immersed in the
past!

To compound all his problems, VM has no notion of proportion. He compares
some hundreds of Goans in France with the number of goans in Portugal. Well,
every suburb of Lisbon has hundreds or thousands of Goans. And they are
spread all over this country and its 11 atlantic islands. One can only laugh
at such ridiculous and parochial comparisons. It's VM's concept of "data".
For me I'm done with this sickening chap. I am going to press the flush
button. I hope he goes down with the water.
No point in trying to correct his biased views. That's for specialists.

Burro velho n?o aprende l?ngua nova. O pior cego ? aquele que n?o quer ver.

Rui Colla?o

Lisboa


V M <_vm_ at yahoo.com>
Fellow-netters,
One wonders, after reading yet another lengthy and
weepy screed written by a Luso-Indian, how did it
happen that presumably normal intellects can remain so
resistant to commonly available facts? How is it that
history can be ignored, simple data defended against
as though it is the doings of Mephistopheles? Why is
it that the knee-jerk reaction is always the same
absurd parroting of mediocre public relations
propaganda about Portugal?
Early in the colonial experience in Goa, the
Portuguese misadventurers figured out a way to create
permanent turncoats and quislings. In the process of
(usually forced) conversion, a harsh and total
cleaving from the native community was demanded. It
was not enough that a Goan professed faith to his new
religion, he was summarily tonsured and clothed ?
forcibly and permanently ? in the climatically
inappropriate manner of the Portuguese. The new
convert was forced to immediately consume beef and
pork and sometimes alcohol ? his domestic architecture
was mandated, the way he wore his hair was mandated,
it was not enough for him to be a Christian or a
?good? colonial, he had to become ? in several key
ways ? even more Portuguese than the resident
Portuguese who were granted more lassitude in their
affairs.
This is the colonial experience that comes to mind
when we read these rather painful, forced and
hopelessly unfactual public relations screeds about
Portugal, the whole effect made more unpalatable when
paired with patently absurd and occasionally racist
diatribes against the mother community which was
unfortunate enough to lend its incontrovertible DNA to
the zealous new converts.
One is tempted to fully ignore the public relations
drivel, after all every response is met with more
tears and gentlemen don?t like to observe grown adults
cry in public.
However, some things do need to be dismissed since
they are not just drivel but astonishingly free of any
basis in fact or analysis.
1) The appallingly false claim was made that Goans
have been a ?fully integrated? ?part and parcel? of
the Portuguese ?nation? for over four centuries. This
is the kind of meretricious avoidance of history that
does not bode well for Portugal as a potentially
free-thinking society.
First, being colonial subjects of a brutal and racist
regime does not translate to anything like
integration. Second, there has been no Portuguese
?nation? to speak about except very recently ? it was
a theocratically-minded kingdom for centuries, then a
total Stalinist-type dictatorship well into the
1970?s, a troubled attempted-democracy for another few
years and now thanks to EC welfare funds starts to
resemble a proper republic.
Third, the absolutely disgusting implication that
Goans were in any way happy and accepting of their
status as second-class colonial subjects ignores every
fact of our past five centuries. It's like saying that
the victims of Apartheid who lived in Soweto in the
50's and 60's were "fully integrated" into the South
African "nation."
One must advise the public relations flack to stop
reading directives from the Portuguese tourism board
and go look up some figures and events from Goan
history ? maybe start with the Pinto rebellion,
Matheus de Castro Mahale, Tristao Braganza Cunha and
then maybe we can come back and start another reading
list.
2) The claims that there are vast numbers of Goans in
Portugal are provably false. There are not, not by any
useful definition. Secondly, the claim that Goans
don?t migrate to Portugal because of language issues
is also unlikely ? there are (I?d bet) as many Goans
in Montreal as there are in any city in Portugal and
language does not hold them back. There are hundreds
of Goans in France, and a whole small community in
Rome. Language does not hold them back.
The reason the Goan community in Portugal is so tiny
and dwindling is that Goans - very reasonably and
accurately - do not consider migration to Portugal to
be particularly advantageous. Finally, the claim that
many young Goans have moved to Portugal in recent
years is also (anecdotally) false. There are in fact,
very very few and those that do pursue Portuguese
citizenship do so because it is a stepping stone to a
preferred destination.
VM
Goans in Portugal are and have
always been (for more than 4 centuries now) part and
parcel >of this nation.
They are fully integrated in this country, they are
citizens, not
i>mmigrants, they do not have a sense of belonging to
any minority community
and only a tiny fraction of them feels the need to be
associated with Casa
de Goa.
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Rui Collaco
2004-09-12 18:42:49 UTC
Permalink
VM is really furious now! Just look at the tone of his message! He knows
all, and he does not tolerate dissent. His DNA is superior. One can see he
is not used to being challenged. He wants to reign supreme and have the
final word. But I am going to spoil the party for him. This chap must be
very aggressive and uneducated. And he certainly is very ignorant too!
Otherwise please check:

Portugal is one of the oldest nations of Europe. Its independence dates from
1143. No historian ever disputed that. VM does. For him, a
"theocratically-minded kingdom" cannot be a nation! Neither can a
dictatorship! Which means that modern Israel, a theocratic state, is not a
nation! And Iraq, under Saddam's dictatorship wasn't a nation either! One is
amazed by such a public display of sheer ignorance by someone who is so full
of himself and his views! VM is in dire need of some schooling. To begin
with, he could ask any schoolteacher the definition of "nation". Then of
"theocracy" and "dictatorship", and then how that affects nationhood. Just
might be too much for his feeble mind.

Yes, Goans were forcibly converted. That's history, however tragic it may
be. My ancestors certainly were converted by force. But for me that's the
past. I have no problems with that, no identity crisis. I don't feel the
pain of my Hindu ancestors. VM has a problem with that too. Which makes him
all the more troubled. I suppose he is Catholic and bears a Portuguese
surname, most probably. Only Catholics write the kind of rubbish as seen in
VM's postings. So I am compelled to ask him and pose him a challenge: You
are a suffering person, have you considered going back to hinduism and
getting rid of your surname? I believe people should be coherent with their
attitudes. The Portuguese must have done horrible things to your family.
Damn criminals! They converted you, they gave you a Portuguese surname,
presumably, and they instilled their western culture in your superior being.
Perhaps they tampered with your intellect too, making it as flawed as it is.
Well, get rid of it, VM, AND BE HAPPY! It's easy, and for you it should also
be painless. You belong to Cornel's fraternity, and the recipe is the same.
Abandon the Portuguese legacy, all of it, and just get off the backs of
those Goans who are happy being what they are, Portuguese legacy included!
My 63 year old mother was born and bred in Loutulim-Goa, she speaks
Portuguese and Konkani perfectly and she is Catholic, besides always having
been a Portuguese citizen. I am sure she is a better and more genuine Goan
than you will ever be. At least she does not hide her identity behind two
initials and she displays her Goanness in a free and dignified manner, with
a positive attitude that does not imply negating any part of what she is and
has always been. I would not even bother to tell her that there is this
troubled bloke who considers her as "cultural detritus". You talk about the
Portuguese as if your ancestors had been carted off as slaves to work in the
plantations of the Caribbean islands, as the British did to so many Indians.
If you are a Goan, that certainly did not happen. Which makes me wonder why
relatively privileged Goans have produced so many misfits like VM. In this
era of globalisation, VM is still crying about the conversion of his
ancestors. What a depressing state of affairs! One of these days he'll be
claiming compensation from Portugal, the latest
fashion among lunatics! Grow up VM, wake up to the real world, including
Portugal. It takes a bold step in that direction and a quantum of
intelligence. To begin with you could stop being a ghost immersed in the
past!

To compound all his problems, VM has no notion of proportion. He compares
some hundreds of Goans in France with the number of goans in Portugal. Well,
every suburb of Lisbon has hundreds or thousands of Goans. And they are
spread all over this country and its 11 atlantic islands. One can only laugh
at such ridiculous and parochial comparisons. It's VM's concept of "data".
For me I'm done with this sickening chap. I am going to press the flush
button. I hope he goes down with the water.
No point in trying to correct his biased views. That's for specialists.

Burro velho n?o aprende l?ngua nova. O pior cego ? aquele que n?o quer ver.

Rui Colla?o

Lisboa


V M <_vm_ at yahoo.com>
Fellow-netters,
One wonders, after reading yet another lengthy and
weepy screed written by a Luso-Indian, how did it
happen that presumably normal intellects can remain so
resistant to commonly available facts? How is it that
history can be ignored, simple data defended against
as though it is the doings of Mephistopheles? Why is
it that the knee-jerk reaction is always the same
absurd parroting of mediocre public relations
propaganda about Portugal?
Early in the colonial experience in Goa, the
Portuguese misadventurers figured out a way to create
permanent turncoats and quislings. In the process of
(usually forced) conversion, a harsh and total
cleaving from the native community was demanded. It
was not enough that a Goan professed faith to his new
religion, he was summarily tonsured and clothed ?
forcibly and permanently ? in the climatically
inappropriate manner of the Portuguese. The new
convert was forced to immediately consume beef and
pork and sometimes alcohol ? his domestic architecture
was mandated, the way he wore his hair was mandated,
it was not enough for him to be a Christian or a
?good? colonial, he had to become ? in several key
ways ? even more Portuguese than the resident
Portuguese who were granted more lassitude in their
affairs.
This is the colonial experience that comes to mind
when we read these rather painful, forced and
hopelessly unfactual public relations screeds about
Portugal, the whole effect made more unpalatable when
paired with patently absurd and occasionally racist
diatribes against the mother community which was
unfortunate enough to lend its incontrovertible DNA to
the zealous new converts.
One is tempted to fully ignore the public relations
drivel, after all every response is met with more
tears and gentlemen don?t like to observe grown adults
cry in public.
However, some things do need to be dismissed since
they are not just drivel but astonishingly free of any
basis in fact or analysis.
1) The appallingly false claim was made that Goans
have been a ?fully integrated? ?part and parcel? of
the Portuguese ?nation? for over four centuries. This
is the kind of meretricious avoidance of history that
does not bode well for Portugal as a potentially
free-thinking society.
First, being colonial subjects of a brutal and racist
regime does not translate to anything like
integration. Second, there has been no Portuguese
?nation? to speak about except very recently ? it was
a theocratically-minded kingdom for centuries, then a
total Stalinist-type dictatorship well into the
1970?s, a troubled attempted-democracy for another few
years and now thanks to EC welfare funds starts to
resemble a proper republic.
Third, the absolutely disgusting implication that
Goans were in any way happy and accepting of their
status as second-class colonial subjects ignores every
fact of our past five centuries. It's like saying that
the victims of Apartheid who lived in Soweto in the
50's and 60's were "fully integrated" into the South
African "nation."
One must advise the public relations flack to stop
reading directives from the Portuguese tourism board
and go look up some figures and events from Goan
history ? maybe start with the Pinto rebellion,
Matheus de Castro Mahale, Tristao Braganza Cunha and
then maybe we can come back and start another reading
list.
2) The claims that there are vast numbers of Goans in
Portugal are provably false. There are not, not by any
useful definition. Secondly, the claim that Goans
don?t migrate to Portugal because of language issues
is also unlikely ? there are (I?d bet) as many Goans
in Montreal as there are in any city in Portugal and
language does not hold them back. There are hundreds
of Goans in France, and a whole small community in
Rome. Language does not hold them back.
The reason the Goan community in Portugal is so tiny
and dwindling is that Goans - very reasonably and
accurately - do not consider migration to Portugal to
be particularly advantageous. Finally, the claim that
many young Goans have moved to Portugal in recent
years is also (anecdotally) false. There are in fact,
very very few and those that do pursue Portuguese
citizenship do so because it is a stepping stone to a
preferred destination.
VM
Goans in Portugal are and have
always been (for more than 4 centuries now) part and
parcel >of this nation.
They are fully integrated in this country, they are
citizens, not
i>mmigrants, they do not have a sense of belonging to
any minority community
and only a tiny fraction of them feels the need to be
associated with Casa
de Goa.
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Rui Collaco
2004-09-12 18:42:49 UTC
Permalink
VM is really furious now! Just look at the tone of his message! He knows
all, and he does not tolerate dissent. His DNA is superior. One can see he
is not used to being challenged. He wants to reign supreme and have the
final word. But I am going to spoil the party for him. This chap must be
very aggressive and uneducated. And he certainly is very ignorant too!
Otherwise please check:

Portugal is one of the oldest nations of Europe. Its independence dates from
1143. No historian ever disputed that. VM does. For him, a
"theocratically-minded kingdom" cannot be a nation! Neither can a
dictatorship! Which means that modern Israel, a theocratic state, is not a
nation! And Iraq, under Saddam's dictatorship wasn't a nation either! One is
amazed by such a public display of sheer ignorance by someone who is so full
of himself and his views! VM is in dire need of some schooling. To begin
with, he could ask any schoolteacher the definition of "nation". Then of
"theocracy" and "dictatorship", and then how that affects nationhood. Just
might be too much for his feeble mind.

Yes, Goans were forcibly converted. That's history, however tragic it may
be. My ancestors certainly were converted by force. But for me that's the
past. I have no problems with that, no identity crisis. I don't feel the
pain of my Hindu ancestors. VM has a problem with that too. Which makes him
all the more troubled. I suppose he is Catholic and bears a Portuguese
surname, most probably. Only Catholics write the kind of rubbish as seen in
VM's postings. So I am compelled to ask him and pose him a challenge: You
are a suffering person, have you considered going back to hinduism and
getting rid of your surname? I believe people should be coherent with their
attitudes. The Portuguese must have done horrible things to your family.
Damn criminals! They converted you, they gave you a Portuguese surname,
presumably, and they instilled their western culture in your superior being.
Perhaps they tampered with your intellect too, making it as flawed as it is.
Well, get rid of it, VM, AND BE HAPPY! It's easy, and for you it should also
be painless. You belong to Cornel's fraternity, and the recipe is the same.
Abandon the Portuguese legacy, all of it, and just get off the backs of
those Goans who are happy being what they are, Portuguese legacy included!
My 63 year old mother was born and bred in Loutulim-Goa, she speaks
Portuguese and Konkani perfectly and she is Catholic, besides always having
been a Portuguese citizen. I am sure she is a better and more genuine Goan
than you will ever be. At least she does not hide her identity behind two
initials and she displays her Goanness in a free and dignified manner, with
a positive attitude that does not imply negating any part of what she is and
has always been. I would not even bother to tell her that there is this
troubled bloke who considers her as "cultural detritus". You talk about the
Portuguese as if your ancestors had been carted off as slaves to work in the
plantations of the Caribbean islands, as the British did to so many Indians.
If you are a Goan, that certainly did not happen. Which makes me wonder why
relatively privileged Goans have produced so many misfits like VM. In this
era of globalisation, VM is still crying about the conversion of his
ancestors. What a depressing state of affairs! One of these days he'll be
claiming compensation from Portugal, the latest
fashion among lunatics! Grow up VM, wake up to the real world, including
Portugal. It takes a bold step in that direction and a quantum of
intelligence. To begin with you could stop being a ghost immersed in the
past!

To compound all his problems, VM has no notion of proportion. He compares
some hundreds of Goans in France with the number of goans in Portugal. Well,
every suburb of Lisbon has hundreds or thousands of Goans. And they are
spread all over this country and its 11 atlantic islands. One can only laugh
at such ridiculous and parochial comparisons. It's VM's concept of "data".
For me I'm done with this sickening chap. I am going to press the flush
button. I hope he goes down with the water.
No point in trying to correct his biased views. That's for specialists.

Burro velho n?o aprende l?ngua nova. O pior cego ? aquele que n?o quer ver.

Rui Colla?o

Lisboa


V M <_vm_ at yahoo.com>
Fellow-netters,
One wonders, after reading yet another lengthy and
weepy screed written by a Luso-Indian, how did it
happen that presumably normal intellects can remain so
resistant to commonly available facts? How is it that
history can be ignored, simple data defended against
as though it is the doings of Mephistopheles? Why is
it that the knee-jerk reaction is always the same
absurd parroting of mediocre public relations
propaganda about Portugal?
Early in the colonial experience in Goa, the
Portuguese misadventurers figured out a way to create
permanent turncoats and quislings. In the process of
(usually forced) conversion, a harsh and total
cleaving from the native community was demanded. It
was not enough that a Goan professed faith to his new
religion, he was summarily tonsured and clothed ?
forcibly and permanently ? in the climatically
inappropriate manner of the Portuguese. The new
convert was forced to immediately consume beef and
pork and sometimes alcohol ? his domestic architecture
was mandated, the way he wore his hair was mandated,
it was not enough for him to be a Christian or a
?good? colonial, he had to become ? in several key
ways ? even more Portuguese than the resident
Portuguese who were granted more lassitude in their
affairs.
This is the colonial experience that comes to mind
when we read these rather painful, forced and
hopelessly unfactual public relations screeds about
Portugal, the whole effect made more unpalatable when
paired with patently absurd and occasionally racist
diatribes against the mother community which was
unfortunate enough to lend its incontrovertible DNA to
the zealous new converts.
One is tempted to fully ignore the public relations
drivel, after all every response is met with more
tears and gentlemen don?t like to observe grown adults
cry in public.
However, some things do need to be dismissed since
they are not just drivel but astonishingly free of any
basis in fact or analysis.
1) The appallingly false claim was made that Goans
have been a ?fully integrated? ?part and parcel? of
the Portuguese ?nation? for over four centuries. This
is the kind of meretricious avoidance of history that
does not bode well for Portugal as a potentially
free-thinking society.
First, being colonial subjects of a brutal and racist
regime does not translate to anything like
integration. Second, there has been no Portuguese
?nation? to speak about except very recently ? it was
a theocratically-minded kingdom for centuries, then a
total Stalinist-type dictatorship well into the
1970?s, a troubled attempted-democracy for another few
years and now thanks to EC welfare funds starts to
resemble a proper republic.
Third, the absolutely disgusting implication that
Goans were in any way happy and accepting of their
status as second-class colonial subjects ignores every
fact of our past five centuries. It's like saying that
the victims of Apartheid who lived in Soweto in the
50's and 60's were "fully integrated" into the South
African "nation."
One must advise the public relations flack to stop
reading directives from the Portuguese tourism board
and go look up some figures and events from Goan
history ? maybe start with the Pinto rebellion,
Matheus de Castro Mahale, Tristao Braganza Cunha and
then maybe we can come back and start another reading
list.
2) The claims that there are vast numbers of Goans in
Portugal are provably false. There are not, not by any
useful definition. Secondly, the claim that Goans
don?t migrate to Portugal because of language issues
is also unlikely ? there are (I?d bet) as many Goans
in Montreal as there are in any city in Portugal and
language does not hold them back. There are hundreds
of Goans in France, and a whole small community in
Rome. Language does not hold them back.
The reason the Goan community in Portugal is so tiny
and dwindling is that Goans - very reasonably and
accurately - do not consider migration to Portugal to
be particularly advantageous. Finally, the claim that
many young Goans have moved to Portugal in recent
years is also (anecdotally) false. There are in fact,
very very few and those that do pursue Portuguese
citizenship do so because it is a stepping stone to a
preferred destination.
VM
Goans in Portugal are and have
always been (for more than 4 centuries now) part and
parcel >of this nation.
They are fully integrated in this country, they are
citizens, not
i>mmigrants, they do not have a sense of belonging to
any minority community
and only a tiny fraction of them feels the need to be
associated with Casa
de Goa.
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Rui Collaco
2004-09-12 18:42:49 UTC
Permalink
VM is really furious now! Just look at the tone of his message! He knows
all, and he does not tolerate dissent. His DNA is superior. One can see he
is not used to being challenged. He wants to reign supreme and have the
final word. But I am going to spoil the party for him. This chap must be
very aggressive and uneducated. And he certainly is very ignorant too!
Otherwise please check:

Portugal is one of the oldest nations of Europe. Its independence dates from
1143. No historian ever disputed that. VM does. For him, a
"theocratically-minded kingdom" cannot be a nation! Neither can a
dictatorship! Which means that modern Israel, a theocratic state, is not a
nation! And Iraq, under Saddam's dictatorship wasn't a nation either! One is
amazed by such a public display of sheer ignorance by someone who is so full
of himself and his views! VM is in dire need of some schooling. To begin
with, he could ask any schoolteacher the definition of "nation". Then of
"theocracy" and "dictatorship", and then how that affects nationhood. Just
might be too much for his feeble mind.

Yes, Goans were forcibly converted. That's history, however tragic it may
be. My ancestors certainly were converted by force. But for me that's the
past. I have no problems with that, no identity crisis. I don't feel the
pain of my Hindu ancestors. VM has a problem with that too. Which makes him
all the more troubled. I suppose he is Catholic and bears a Portuguese
surname, most probably. Only Catholics write the kind of rubbish as seen in
VM's postings. So I am compelled to ask him and pose him a challenge: You
are a suffering person, have you considered going back to hinduism and
getting rid of your surname? I believe people should be coherent with their
attitudes. The Portuguese must have done horrible things to your family.
Damn criminals! They converted you, they gave you a Portuguese surname,
presumably, and they instilled their western culture in your superior being.
Perhaps they tampered with your intellect too, making it as flawed as it is.
Well, get rid of it, VM, AND BE HAPPY! It's easy, and for you it should also
be painless. You belong to Cornel's fraternity, and the recipe is the same.
Abandon the Portuguese legacy, all of it, and just get off the backs of
those Goans who are happy being what they are, Portuguese legacy included!
My 63 year old mother was born and bred in Loutulim-Goa, she speaks
Portuguese and Konkani perfectly and she is Catholic, besides always having
been a Portuguese citizen. I am sure she is a better and more genuine Goan
than you will ever be. At least she does not hide her identity behind two
initials and she displays her Goanness in a free and dignified manner, with
a positive attitude that does not imply negating any part of what she is and
has always been. I would not even bother to tell her that there is this
troubled bloke who considers her as "cultural detritus". You talk about the
Portuguese as if your ancestors had been carted off as slaves to work in the
plantations of the Caribbean islands, as the British did to so many Indians.
If you are a Goan, that certainly did not happen. Which makes me wonder why
relatively privileged Goans have produced so many misfits like VM. In this
era of globalisation, VM is still crying about the conversion of his
ancestors. What a depressing state of affairs! One of these days he'll be
claiming compensation from Portugal, the latest
fashion among lunatics! Grow up VM, wake up to the real world, including
Portugal. It takes a bold step in that direction and a quantum of
intelligence. To begin with you could stop being a ghost immersed in the
past!

To compound all his problems, VM has no notion of proportion. He compares
some hundreds of Goans in France with the number of goans in Portugal. Well,
every suburb of Lisbon has hundreds or thousands of Goans. And they are
spread all over this country and its 11 atlantic islands. One can only laugh
at such ridiculous and parochial comparisons. It's VM's concept of "data".
For me I'm done with this sickening chap. I am going to press the flush
button. I hope he goes down with the water.
No point in trying to correct his biased views. That's for specialists.

Burro velho n?o aprende l?ngua nova. O pior cego ? aquele que n?o quer ver.

Rui Colla?o

Lisboa


V M <_vm_ at yahoo.com>
Fellow-netters,
One wonders, after reading yet another lengthy and
weepy screed written by a Luso-Indian, how did it
happen that presumably normal intellects can remain so
resistant to commonly available facts? How is it that
history can be ignored, simple data defended against
as though it is the doings of Mephistopheles? Why is
it that the knee-jerk reaction is always the same
absurd parroting of mediocre public relations
propaganda about Portugal?
Early in the colonial experience in Goa, the
Portuguese misadventurers figured out a way to create
permanent turncoats and quislings. In the process of
(usually forced) conversion, a harsh and total
cleaving from the native community was demanded. It
was not enough that a Goan professed faith to his new
religion, he was summarily tonsured and clothed ?
forcibly and permanently ? in the climatically
inappropriate manner of the Portuguese. The new
convert was forced to immediately consume beef and
pork and sometimes alcohol ? his domestic architecture
was mandated, the way he wore his hair was mandated,
it was not enough for him to be a Christian or a
?good? colonial, he had to become ? in several key
ways ? even more Portuguese than the resident
Portuguese who were granted more lassitude in their
affairs.
This is the colonial experience that comes to mind
when we read these rather painful, forced and
hopelessly unfactual public relations screeds about
Portugal, the whole effect made more unpalatable when
paired with patently absurd and occasionally racist
diatribes against the mother community which was
unfortunate enough to lend its incontrovertible DNA to
the zealous new converts.
One is tempted to fully ignore the public relations
drivel, after all every response is met with more
tears and gentlemen don?t like to observe grown adults
cry in public.
However, some things do need to be dismissed since
they are not just drivel but astonishingly free of any
basis in fact or analysis.
1) The appallingly false claim was made that Goans
have been a ?fully integrated? ?part and parcel? of
the Portuguese ?nation? for over four centuries. This
is the kind of meretricious avoidance of history that
does not bode well for Portugal as a potentially
free-thinking society.
First, being colonial subjects of a brutal and racist
regime does not translate to anything like
integration. Second, there has been no Portuguese
?nation? to speak about except very recently ? it was
a theocratically-minded kingdom for centuries, then a
total Stalinist-type dictatorship well into the
1970?s, a troubled attempted-democracy for another few
years and now thanks to EC welfare funds starts to
resemble a proper republic.
Third, the absolutely disgusting implication that
Goans were in any way happy and accepting of their
status as second-class colonial subjects ignores every
fact of our past five centuries. It's like saying that
the victims of Apartheid who lived in Soweto in the
50's and 60's were "fully integrated" into the South
African "nation."
One must advise the public relations flack to stop
reading directives from the Portuguese tourism board
and go look up some figures and events from Goan
history ? maybe start with the Pinto rebellion,
Matheus de Castro Mahale, Tristao Braganza Cunha and
then maybe we can come back and start another reading
list.
2) The claims that there are vast numbers of Goans in
Portugal are provably false. There are not, not by any
useful definition. Secondly, the claim that Goans
don?t migrate to Portugal because of language issues
is also unlikely ? there are (I?d bet) as many Goans
in Montreal as there are in any city in Portugal and
language does not hold them back. There are hundreds
of Goans in France, and a whole small community in
Rome. Language does not hold them back.
The reason the Goan community in Portugal is so tiny
and dwindling is that Goans - very reasonably and
accurately - do not consider migration to Portugal to
be particularly advantageous. Finally, the claim that
many young Goans have moved to Portugal in recent
years is also (anecdotally) false. There are in fact,
very very few and those that do pursue Portuguese
citizenship do so because it is a stepping stone to a
preferred destination.
VM
Goans in Portugal are and have
always been (for more than 4 centuries now) part and
parcel >of this nation.
They are fully integrated in this country, they are
citizens, not
i>mmigrants, they do not have a sense of belonging to
any minority community
and only a tiny fraction of them feels the need to be
associated with Casa
de Goa.
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