Discussion:
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
(too old to reply)
Jerry Fernandes
2008-03-13 08:58:43 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Netters

Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.

So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?

Cheers

Jerry

India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mario Goveia
2008-03-13 22:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Date: 13 Mar 2008 08:58:43 -0000
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Mario responds:
Hey, Jerry,
Isn't India still the land of snake charmers?:-))
I am surprised India was ranked as low as No. 6.
Your impressions of the US sound like when I first came here 37 years ago. Obviously you are completely out of touch with the US of today where Indian doctors, engineers, IT specialists, college professors, small and large business owners, even Catholic priests and nuns flourish and are highly respected.
Indian-Americans have been the highest ranked ethnic community in the US by family income since the 1980 census and the recently elected Governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, is the son of Indian immigrants.
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-14 04:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Mario Goveia
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-15 02:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic
carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?

Mervyn3.0
Police were called to a daycare where a three-year-old was resisting a rest.


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Sachin Phadte
2008-03-15 04:19:28 UTC
Permalink
I do not understand what Venantius Pinto is trying to say in context of the subject line. The report indicates the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated, one should take it at face value. And if one says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming to such a conclusion.

There are indeed many faults in the Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey have done.

Sachin Phadte


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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-16 00:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Dear Sachin,
It would have helped if you asked specifically which part you did not
understand. I must say that the my grammar in my post is not the
finest. But other than I believe the ideas do come across. In all
probability no one else may respond, so here is what I meant. The
thread as you know began with Jerry Fernandes' query reproduced below.
When that question was asked by JF, "Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India
amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?" [WASHINGTON
(Agencies)], I responded; answering your vide, "The report indicates
the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated,
one should take it at face value" I do not need to say it is
manipulated, but since you ask questions in tandem -- SP: "And if one
says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming
to such a conclusion," I shall point the general rational behind my
response, and not specific details. I do sense that you feel I am
being irresponsible towards India.

We give our opinions (as if they matter) on a plethora of issues in
this forum. I gave my opinion based on how I viewed JFs question. I
could have made little of it, but too it seriously, and cared to
explain, but also giving examples that force one to think for oneself
-- whether one wishes to do so or not. This is where it begins. I
began by looking briefly at the word "popular" (CAPPED by me in the
excerpt from Jerry Fernandes below), by making an analogy between the
qualities (largely superficial) between a human and extrapolating
those notions (but seeing them deeply and relating them to the country
as an being) onto country -- in this case India. What I am doing is
attempting to nail down why India is considered as being popular in
the imagination/analysis/or survey of the WASHINGTON Agencies. I also
said, "There are good sides to India, but the USA is comfortable with
an India which is assiduously following its lead on many
issues...(economically motivated) This as well as my examples should
be a response to your point, "There are indeed many faults in the
Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the
broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey
have done."

I am not allowing myself to be held in thrall by the pronouncement of
the "popular" for two reasons. First of all, although an Indian I am
not impressed with notions of popularity, and secondly having lived a
life of observation (as have others too) -- the media is the media,
and being the media, seen it(the media) puts out news, including
facts, largely based on the interests of power brokers. So my response
must be seen within this duality.
Post by Jerry Fernandes
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most POPULAR country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
So my picture, is a broad picture, and will always be a broad picture.
My expressive temper may come across as harsh, but it aims for
precision and the splintering of obfuscation or pithy statements,
which we inadvertently absorb into our social identities. India is
complex, and I do understand that, but India like any other country
has its interests and protects or protests based on how our Mandarins
(very important term here) see themselves, themselves as India, and
India as in themselves. So what I am saying is, the label of "popular"
has a plurality of connotations; we should look beyond the denotations
of "popular." I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not
see Indian politicians from the same mould. This is what I am saying.
I am not banging on the proud swadeshi Indian. People like me will
always make connections and analogies that I can only hope others may
see. These are not done casually, are not tormented by any stretch of
imagination, but may just be a bit more visually forceful than the
comfort level in this forum.

Now JF may respond by at least saying he got the gist of what I am
saying, or that it is pure gibberish.

venantius j pinto
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
I do not understand what Venantius Pinto is trying to say in context of the subject line. The report indicates the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated, one should take it at face value. And if one says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming to such a conclusion.
There are indeed many faults in the Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey have done.
Sachin Phadte
________________________________
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-16 07:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Venantius Pinto says: "I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not see Indian politicians from the same mould."

I do not know what exactly are the questions that were asked of the persons interviewed, but would it not be safe to presume that the opinion sought is of the Indians as a whole, and NOT of the politicians?

In his earlier message, Venantius said: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese."

The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love.

In case of India the respective figures are 22% and 69%.

Sachin Phadte

_________________________________________________________________
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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-16 17:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Neither of us know what the questions were, or at least I do not. My
views had strictly to do with adddresing Jerry Fernandes and not
merely ignoring his question or saying, "Its cool that India is the
sixth most popular country in the world." I have no clue as to who
Jerry Fernandes is, and I am sure there will be others who will post
such questions; but that question deserved my kind of a response. I do
not wish to get into statistical reasoning, but do know enough to say
that data, and data towards certain opinions is often made to fit a
conclusion.

But if it is important to believe India's popularity, and that we
should take the "WASHINGTON (Agencies)" excerpt from Jerry Fernandes
at face value -- I concede. It does not hurt me to concede, since it
gives me a better sense than I thought of how we see things. One
example, "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents
viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data
would indicate love." The data simply indicates that MORE people
viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of
qualitative analysis?
_____________________________
On another note, I finally see that the largely the topics that seems
to run well on Goanet are politics as in governing the state, and
Valmiki Faleiro's columns. Thanks heavens for those columns becuase no
matter what (rain or shine, joy or depressin, I would think) they give
one and all (people from every political motivation and those who are
independent), glimpses into the near Goan past, while pointing towards
the future of our making.

This is my last post on "India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans."

venantius
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Venantius Pinto says: "I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not see Indian politicians from the same mould."
I do not know what exactly are the questions that were asked of the persons interviewed, but would it not be safe to presume that the opinion sought is of the Indians as a whole, and NOT of the politicians?
In his earlier message, Venantius said: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese."
The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love.
In case of India the respective figures are 22% and 69%.
Sachin Phadte
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-17 06:46:52 UTC
Permalink
To my comment: "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love."

Venantius Pinto responds: "The data simply indicates that MORE people viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of qualitative analysis?"

If Venantius had read his own posting carefully, it would be clear that he was the one who brought love in the picture. He had written: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese." I had included this quote of his in the message to which Venantius responded.

Sachin Phadte


_________________________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2008-03-17 15:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Fri Mar 14 19:48:12 PDT 2008
From Mervyn Lobo mervynalobo at yahoo.ca
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?
Mario responds:
I don't think so, Mervyn. It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America. If you were correct, the number of applications for residency in America would not have increased so sharply from the days when you apparently had applied. Neither would the desperate attempts to get into America, illegally if necessary.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-17 21:38:29 UTC
Permalink
As the worthy discussant that you are, I had wriiten an elaborate
response to your post with the incomplete excerpt, but lost my post
due to a Gmail hiccup--my first. So in brief here is what I said with
the prodigal sentence beginning with "Why":
"But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA."

Perhaps you inadvertently missed the sentence immediately following
the one you employed to make your case, Once that sentence is in place
it becomes clear that I was looking at Nation States--their power
brokers (elites if you will) and not survey responders. I am pleased
that you went back to the earlier email, and I hope other do too. I am
disappointed that I lost my text. I had also nailed the grammar on
that one.

venantius
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
To my comment: "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love."
Venantius Pinto responds: "The data simply indicates that MORE people viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of qualitative analysis?"
If Venantius had read his own posting carefully, it would be clear that he was the one who brought love in the picture. He had written: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese." I had included this quote of his in the message to which Venantius responded.
Sachin Phadte
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-18 13:53:38 UTC
Permalink
From Jerry Fernandes's message, I get a feeling that he is questioning the validity of the survey. Or perhaps he feels that Venantius Pinto is questioning the validity. If my feeling is wrong, please ignore the rest of the message.
We should understand that the survey did not question the respondents only about India. They were asked to give their opinion about other countries like Great Britain, Russia, China, Japan, etc. And there were five other countries that scored better than India in the survey.

I am told that such surveys are done quite scientifically. Despite that, surveys do make mistakes, some horrible ones also. However, I doubt that in this case the mistake would be such that instead of being the 6th best, the Americans view India as the 6th worst.

Sachin Phadte


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Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-19 02:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America.
Mario,
I live in America. I am very familiar with the conditions here ;-)

You are now the second person on Goanet who claims no one knows anything about culture/conditions unless or until it is approved by themselves :-)

I am so sure I know the intricacies and the conditions of America that I willing to be scrutinized by you (and Dr* Rajan Parrikar if necessary) to prove the same.


Mervyn3.0
The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
- Vladimir Lenin -





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Mario Goveia
2008-03-18 16:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Thu Mar 13 21:47:12 PDT 2008
Sat Mar 15 17:57:41 PDT 2008, and
Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:38:29 -0400
From: "Venantius Pinto" <venantius.pinto at gmail.com>
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the media.
Mario responds:
Venantius, not to be picky, but one scientific poll is just a statistical snapshot of opinion, not necessarily a consensus. Properly designed and conducted and repeated consistently, it can track a statistical trend, may identify a consensus, and form a valid tool that can be used in decisionmaking.
Should Indians care of what Americans think about it? Of course they should, because India has developed such a close working relationship with the US and its enormous economy where much of the demand for India's services and brain-power comes from. Indians should be delighted at their growing popularity in the US because it shows a reciprocation - similar polls have shown that the US is more popular in India than in many other countries.
Venantius wrote:
There are good sides to India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not publicly) on anything.
Mario responds:
The communists who are part of the ruling coalition in India are constantly berating the US publicly. The Indian government has no plausible reason to do so. I'm sure they communicate on all matters of interest.
India is following the US lead primarily in freeing up its economy from the millstone of extreme socialism to the benefit of both countries. India offers the US a huge potential market for its own mature economy and the slower growth in its traditional mature foreign markets. A closer working relation ship is a win-win situation for both.
The reason that Indians have been so successful within the highly competitive US economy is because of the natural affinity of most Indians for a free economy, where producing results and personal achievements speak louder than anything else. You must have noticed by now that Indians are very competitive and successful in the US and consequently there is growing respect for India and Indians.
As a reflection of this, when I meet a Caucasian American for the first time today, within five minutes he or she are trying to impress ME with the other Indians they know - who are invariably a respected doctor or engineer, a top student or brilliant professor, an IT professional, a small or large businessman or woman, more recently a Catholic priest or a nun, etc., etc., etc. Quite a change from 37 years ago when the conversation tended towards the weather and snake charmers and elephants and tigers.
India and the US have a lot in common as far as being two beacons of freedom and diversity and tolerance for the most part, with growing economic ties based on common interests and needs and a shared opposition to Islamist fascism which has targeted India since its inception. India has survived 50 wasted years of mindless Fabian socialism and pecksniffian political philosophies during its formative years, which resulted in a massive brain drain that benefited the US tremendously. Now, with the heavy yoke of socialism partially lifted, India is demonstrating the economic growth that it was always capable of, and the US has taken due note, believe me.
Reflecting the growing affinity, President Bush offered India a nuclear arrangement that would considerably enhance India's capabilities in nuclear generated electric power. Guess who is standing in the way - the same communists who were substantially responsible for India's economic malaise before Manmohan Singh began the process of liberalization - India's euphemism for shedding extreme socialism.
Venantius wrote:
If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.
Mario observes:
China and the US used to be mortal enemies during the Cold War. The US and China fought each other in both Korea and VietNam. Besides, the US has guaranteed the freedom and autonomy of democratic Taiwan, which China claims for itself and would try and annex by force if it were not for the US.
Subsequently the Chinese have realized the economic folly of communism, and decided to follow a semi-capitalist model which is raising the standard of living in China. China is providing inexpensive quality products to the US marketplace which has served to keep inflation low for the American consumer. This is an example of business interests creating a win-win situation for both. Now China has a somewhat vested interest in the US economy on which it depends for a large share of its own economy.
Americans don't "love" and admire the Chinese across the board in the conventional sense. They have little in common in many areas. However, their growing working relationship based on common business interests has cooled the hostility in the other areas. This is a good thing. As an example of this, China played a key role in getting N. Korea to give up its nuclear ambitions, which will benefit that miserable backwater of failed communism in the years ahead.
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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-19 15:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Venantius, not to be picky, but one scientific poll is just a statistical snapshot of opinion, not necessarily a consensus. Properly designed and conducted and repeated consistently, it can track a statistical trend, may identify a consensus, and form a valid tool that can be used in decisionmaking.
VJP: Mario, the points you make are well taken.

venantius
Mario Goveia
2008-03-21 17:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:
It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America.
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:32:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
Mario,
I live in America. I am very familiar with the conditions here ;-)
Mario responds:
Maybe. Maybe not. The America in this discussion is the US, not Canada.
Mervyn wrote:
I am so sure I know the intricacies and the conditions of America that I willing to be scrutinized by you (and Dr* Rajan Parrikar if necessary) to prove the same.
Mario responds:
You have already proved what I need to know to my full satisfaction with your unrecognizable comments about the US:-))
Mervyn wrote:
The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
- Vladimir Lenin -
Mario responds:
You must think Lenin did a great job with the economy of the Soviet Union:-))
"A communist is someone who reads Marx and Lenin. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx and Lenin." Paraphrasing and adapting comments by Ronald Reagan.
Jerry Fernandes
2008-03-13 08:58:43 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Netters

Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.

So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?

Cheers

Jerry

India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mario Goveia
2008-03-13 22:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Date: 13 Mar 2008 08:58:43 -0000
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Mario responds:
Hey, Jerry,
Isn't India still the land of snake charmers?:-))
I am surprised India was ranked as low as No. 6.
Your impressions of the US sound like when I first came here 37 years ago. Obviously you are completely out of touch with the US of today where Indian doctors, engineers, IT specialists, college professors, small and large business owners, even Catholic priests and nuns flourish and are highly respected.
Indian-Americans have been the highest ranked ethnic community in the US by family income since the 1980 census and the recently elected Governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, is the son of Indian immigrants.
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-14 04:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Mario Goveia
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-15 02:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic
carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?

Mervyn3.0
Police were called to a daycare where a three-year-old was resisting a rest.


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Sachin Phadte
2008-03-15 04:19:28 UTC
Permalink
I do not understand what Venantius Pinto is trying to say in context of the subject line. The report indicates the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated, one should take it at face value. And if one says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming to such a conclusion.

There are indeed many faults in the Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey have done.

Sachin Phadte


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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-16 00:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Dear Sachin,
It would have helped if you asked specifically which part you did not
understand. I must say that the my grammar in my post is not the
finest. But other than I believe the ideas do come across. In all
probability no one else may respond, so here is what I meant. The
thread as you know began with Jerry Fernandes' query reproduced below.
When that question was asked by JF, "Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India
amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?" [WASHINGTON
(Agencies)], I responded; answering your vide, "The report indicates
the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated,
one should take it at face value" I do not need to say it is
manipulated, but since you ask questions in tandem -- SP: "And if one
says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming
to such a conclusion," I shall point the general rational behind my
response, and not specific details. I do sense that you feel I am
being irresponsible towards India.

We give our opinions (as if they matter) on a plethora of issues in
this forum. I gave my opinion based on how I viewed JFs question. I
could have made little of it, but too it seriously, and cared to
explain, but also giving examples that force one to think for oneself
-- whether one wishes to do so or not. This is where it begins. I
began by looking briefly at the word "popular" (CAPPED by me in the
excerpt from Jerry Fernandes below), by making an analogy between the
qualities (largely superficial) between a human and extrapolating
those notions (but seeing them deeply and relating them to the country
as an being) onto country -- in this case India. What I am doing is
attempting to nail down why India is considered as being popular in
the imagination/analysis/or survey of the WASHINGTON Agencies. I also
said, "There are good sides to India, but the USA is comfortable with
an India which is assiduously following its lead on many
issues...(economically motivated) This as well as my examples should
be a response to your point, "There are indeed many faults in the
Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the
broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey
have done."

I am not allowing myself to be held in thrall by the pronouncement of
the "popular" for two reasons. First of all, although an Indian I am
not impressed with notions of popularity, and secondly having lived a
life of observation (as have others too) -- the media is the media,
and being the media, seen it(the media) puts out news, including
facts, largely based on the interests of power brokers. So my response
must be seen within this duality.
Post by Jerry Fernandes
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most POPULAR country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
So my picture, is a broad picture, and will always be a broad picture.
My expressive temper may come across as harsh, but it aims for
precision and the splintering of obfuscation or pithy statements,
which we inadvertently absorb into our social identities. India is
complex, and I do understand that, but India like any other country
has its interests and protects or protests based on how our Mandarins
(very important term here) see themselves, themselves as India, and
India as in themselves. So what I am saying is, the label of "popular"
has a plurality of connotations; we should look beyond the denotations
of "popular." I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not
see Indian politicians from the same mould. This is what I am saying.
I am not banging on the proud swadeshi Indian. People like me will
always make connections and analogies that I can only hope others may
see. These are not done casually, are not tormented by any stretch of
imagination, but may just be a bit more visually forceful than the
comfort level in this forum.

Now JF may respond by at least saying he got the gist of what I am
saying, or that it is pure gibberish.

venantius j pinto
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
I do not understand what Venantius Pinto is trying to say in context of the subject line. The report indicates the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated, one should take it at face value. And if one says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming to such a conclusion.
There are indeed many faults in the Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey have done.
Sachin Phadte
________________________________
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-16 07:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Venantius Pinto says: "I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not see Indian politicians from the same mould."

I do not know what exactly are the questions that were asked of the persons interviewed, but would it not be safe to presume that the opinion sought is of the Indians as a whole, and NOT of the politicians?

In his earlier message, Venantius said: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese."

The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love.

In case of India the respective figures are 22% and 69%.

Sachin Phadte

_________________________________________________________________
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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-16 17:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Neither of us know what the questions were, or at least I do not. My
views had strictly to do with adddresing Jerry Fernandes and not
merely ignoring his question or saying, "Its cool that India is the
sixth most popular country in the world." I have no clue as to who
Jerry Fernandes is, and I am sure there will be others who will post
such questions; but that question deserved my kind of a response. I do
not wish to get into statistical reasoning, but do know enough to say
that data, and data towards certain opinions is often made to fit a
conclusion.

But if it is important to believe India's popularity, and that we
should take the "WASHINGTON (Agencies)" excerpt from Jerry Fernandes
at face value -- I concede. It does not hurt me to concede, since it
gives me a better sense than I thought of how we see things. One
example, "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents
viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data
would indicate love." The data simply indicates that MORE people
viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of
qualitative analysis?
_____________________________
On another note, I finally see that the largely the topics that seems
to run well on Goanet are politics as in governing the state, and
Valmiki Faleiro's columns. Thanks heavens for those columns becuase no
matter what (rain or shine, joy or depressin, I would think) they give
one and all (people from every political motivation and those who are
independent), glimpses into the near Goan past, while pointing towards
the future of our making.

This is my last post on "India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans."

venantius
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Venantius Pinto says: "I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not see Indian politicians from the same mould."
I do not know what exactly are the questions that were asked of the persons interviewed, but would it not be safe to presume that the opinion sought is of the Indians as a whole, and NOT of the politicians?
In his earlier message, Venantius said: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese."
The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love.
In case of India the respective figures are 22% and 69%.
Sachin Phadte
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-17 06:46:52 UTC
Permalink
To my comment: "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love."

Venantius Pinto responds: "The data simply indicates that MORE people viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of qualitative analysis?"

If Venantius had read his own posting carefully, it would be clear that he was the one who brought love in the picture. He had written: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese." I had included this quote of his in the message to which Venantius responded.

Sachin Phadte


_________________________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2008-03-17 15:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Fri Mar 14 19:48:12 PDT 2008
From Mervyn Lobo mervynalobo at yahoo.ca
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?
Mario responds:
I don't think so, Mervyn. It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America. If you were correct, the number of applications for residency in America would not have increased so sharply from the days when you apparently had applied. Neither would the desperate attempts to get into America, illegally if necessary.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-17 21:38:29 UTC
Permalink
As the worthy discussant that you are, I had wriiten an elaborate
response to your post with the incomplete excerpt, but lost my post
due to a Gmail hiccup--my first. So in brief here is what I said with
the prodigal sentence beginning with "Why":
"But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA."

Perhaps you inadvertently missed the sentence immediately following
the one you employed to make your case, Once that sentence is in place
it becomes clear that I was looking at Nation States--their power
brokers (elites if you will) and not survey responders. I am pleased
that you went back to the earlier email, and I hope other do too. I am
disappointed that I lost my text. I had also nailed the grammar on
that one.

venantius
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
To my comment: "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love."
Venantius Pinto responds: "The data simply indicates that MORE people viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of qualitative analysis?"
If Venantius had read his own posting carefully, it would be clear that he was the one who brought love in the picture. He had written: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese." I had included this quote of his in the message to which Venantius responded.
Sachin Phadte
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-18 13:53:38 UTC
Permalink
From Jerry Fernandes's message, I get a feeling that he is questioning the validity of the survey. Or perhaps he feels that Venantius Pinto is questioning the validity. If my feeling is wrong, please ignore the rest of the message.
We should understand that the survey did not question the respondents only about India. They were asked to give their opinion about other countries like Great Britain, Russia, China, Japan, etc. And there were five other countries that scored better than India in the survey.

I am told that such surveys are done quite scientifically. Despite that, surveys do make mistakes, some horrible ones also. However, I doubt that in this case the mistake would be such that instead of being the 6th best, the Americans view India as the 6th worst.

Sachin Phadte


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Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-19 02:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America.
Mario,
I live in America. I am very familiar with the conditions here ;-)

You are now the second person on Goanet who claims no one knows anything about culture/conditions unless or until it is approved by themselves :-)

I am so sure I know the intricacies and the conditions of America that I willing to be scrutinized by you (and Dr* Rajan Parrikar if necessary) to prove the same.


Mervyn3.0
The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
- Vladimir Lenin -





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Mario Goveia
2008-03-18 16:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Thu Mar 13 21:47:12 PDT 2008
Sat Mar 15 17:57:41 PDT 2008, and
Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:38:29 -0400
From: "Venantius Pinto" <venantius.pinto at gmail.com>
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the media.
Mario responds:
Venantius, not to be picky, but one scientific poll is just a statistical snapshot of opinion, not necessarily a consensus. Properly designed and conducted and repeated consistently, it can track a statistical trend, may identify a consensus, and form a valid tool that can be used in decisionmaking.
Should Indians care of what Americans think about it? Of course they should, because India has developed such a close working relationship with the US and its enormous economy where much of the demand for India's services and brain-power comes from. Indians should be delighted at their growing popularity in the US because it shows a reciprocation - similar polls have shown that the US is more popular in India than in many other countries.
Venantius wrote:
There are good sides to India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not publicly) on anything.
Mario responds:
The communists who are part of the ruling coalition in India are constantly berating the US publicly. The Indian government has no plausible reason to do so. I'm sure they communicate on all matters of interest.
India is following the US lead primarily in freeing up its economy from the millstone of extreme socialism to the benefit of both countries. India offers the US a huge potential market for its own mature economy and the slower growth in its traditional mature foreign markets. A closer working relation ship is a win-win situation for both.
The reason that Indians have been so successful within the highly competitive US economy is because of the natural affinity of most Indians for a free economy, where producing results and personal achievements speak louder than anything else. You must have noticed by now that Indians are very competitive and successful in the US and consequently there is growing respect for India and Indians.
As a reflection of this, when I meet a Caucasian American for the first time today, within five minutes he or she are trying to impress ME with the other Indians they know - who are invariably a respected doctor or engineer, a top student or brilliant professor, an IT professional, a small or large businessman or woman, more recently a Catholic priest or a nun, etc., etc., etc. Quite a change from 37 years ago when the conversation tended towards the weather and snake charmers and elephants and tigers.
India and the US have a lot in common as far as being two beacons of freedom and diversity and tolerance for the most part, with growing economic ties based on common interests and needs and a shared opposition to Islamist fascism which has targeted India since its inception. India has survived 50 wasted years of mindless Fabian socialism and pecksniffian political philosophies during its formative years, which resulted in a massive brain drain that benefited the US tremendously. Now, with the heavy yoke of socialism partially lifted, India is demonstrating the economic growth that it was always capable of, and the US has taken due note, believe me.
Reflecting the growing affinity, President Bush offered India a nuclear arrangement that would considerably enhance India's capabilities in nuclear generated electric power. Guess who is standing in the way - the same communists who were substantially responsible for India's economic malaise before Manmohan Singh began the process of liberalization - India's euphemism for shedding extreme socialism.
Venantius wrote:
If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.
Mario observes:
China and the US used to be mortal enemies during the Cold War. The US and China fought each other in both Korea and VietNam. Besides, the US has guaranteed the freedom and autonomy of democratic Taiwan, which China claims for itself and would try and annex by force if it were not for the US.
Subsequently the Chinese have realized the economic folly of communism, and decided to follow a semi-capitalist model which is raising the standard of living in China. China is providing inexpensive quality products to the US marketplace which has served to keep inflation low for the American consumer. This is an example of business interests creating a win-win situation for both. Now China has a somewhat vested interest in the US economy on which it depends for a large share of its own economy.
Americans don't "love" and admire the Chinese across the board in the conventional sense. They have little in common in many areas. However, their growing working relationship based on common business interests has cooled the hostility in the other areas. This is a good thing. As an example of this, China played a key role in getting N. Korea to give up its nuclear ambitions, which will benefit that miserable backwater of failed communism in the years ahead.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Paraphrasing Ronald Reagan.
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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-19 15:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Venantius, not to be picky, but one scientific poll is just a statistical snapshot of opinion, not necessarily a consensus. Properly designed and conducted and repeated consistently, it can track a statistical trend, may identify a consensus, and form a valid tool that can be used in decisionmaking.
VJP: Mario, the points you make are well taken.

venantius
Mario Goveia
2008-03-21 17:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:
It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America.
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:32:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
Mario,
I live in America. I am very familiar with the conditions here ;-)
Mario responds:
Maybe. Maybe not. The America in this discussion is the US, not Canada.
Mervyn wrote:
I am so sure I know the intricacies and the conditions of America that I willing to be scrutinized by you (and Dr* Rajan Parrikar if necessary) to prove the same.
Mario responds:
You have already proved what I need to know to my full satisfaction with your unrecognizable comments about the US:-))
Mervyn wrote:
The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
- Vladimir Lenin -
Mario responds:
You must think Lenin did a great job with the economy of the Soviet Union:-))
"A communist is someone who reads Marx and Lenin. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx and Lenin." Paraphrasing and adapting comments by Ronald Reagan.
Jerry Fernandes
2008-03-13 08:58:43 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Netters

Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.

So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?

Cheers

Jerry

India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mario Goveia
2008-03-13 22:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Date: 13 Mar 2008 08:58:43 -0000
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Mario responds:
Hey, Jerry,
Isn't India still the land of snake charmers?:-))
I am surprised India was ranked as low as No. 6.
Your impressions of the US sound like when I first came here 37 years ago. Obviously you are completely out of touch with the US of today where Indian doctors, engineers, IT specialists, college professors, small and large business owners, even Catholic priests and nuns flourish and are highly respected.
Indian-Americans have been the highest ranked ethnic community in the US by family income since the 1980 census and the recently elected Governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, is the son of Indian immigrants.
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-14 04:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Mario Goveia
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-15 02:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic
carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?

Mervyn3.0
Police were called to a daycare where a three-year-old was resisting a rest.


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Sachin Phadte
2008-03-15 04:19:28 UTC
Permalink
I do not understand what Venantius Pinto is trying to say in context of the subject line. The report indicates the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated, one should take it at face value. And if one says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming to such a conclusion.

There are indeed many faults in the Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey have done.

Sachin Phadte


_________________________________________________________________
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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-16 00:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Dear Sachin,
It would have helped if you asked specifically which part you did not
understand. I must say that the my grammar in my post is not the
finest. But other than I believe the ideas do come across. In all
probability no one else may respond, so here is what I meant. The
thread as you know began with Jerry Fernandes' query reproduced below.
When that question was asked by JF, "Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India
amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?" [WASHINGTON
(Agencies)], I responded; answering your vide, "The report indicates
the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated,
one should take it at face value" I do not need to say it is
manipulated, but since you ask questions in tandem -- SP: "And if one
says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming
to such a conclusion," I shall point the general rational behind my
response, and not specific details. I do sense that you feel I am
being irresponsible towards India.

We give our opinions (as if they matter) on a plethora of issues in
this forum. I gave my opinion based on how I viewed JFs question. I
could have made little of it, but too it seriously, and cared to
explain, but also giving examples that force one to think for oneself
-- whether one wishes to do so or not. This is where it begins. I
began by looking briefly at the word "popular" (CAPPED by me in the
excerpt from Jerry Fernandes below), by making an analogy between the
qualities (largely superficial) between a human and extrapolating
those notions (but seeing them deeply and relating them to the country
as an being) onto country -- in this case India. What I am doing is
attempting to nail down why India is considered as being popular in
the imagination/analysis/or survey of the WASHINGTON Agencies. I also
said, "There are good sides to India, but the USA is comfortable with
an India which is assiduously following its lead on many
issues...(economically motivated) This as well as my examples should
be a response to your point, "There are indeed many faults in the
Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the
broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey
have done."

I am not allowing myself to be held in thrall by the pronouncement of
the "popular" for two reasons. First of all, although an Indian I am
not impressed with notions of popularity, and secondly having lived a
life of observation (as have others too) -- the media is the media,
and being the media, seen it(the media) puts out news, including
facts, largely based on the interests of power brokers. So my response
must be seen within this duality.
Post by Jerry Fernandes
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most POPULAR country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
So my picture, is a broad picture, and will always be a broad picture.
My expressive temper may come across as harsh, but it aims for
precision and the splintering of obfuscation or pithy statements,
which we inadvertently absorb into our social identities. India is
complex, and I do understand that, but India like any other country
has its interests and protects or protests based on how our Mandarins
(very important term here) see themselves, themselves as India, and
India as in themselves. So what I am saying is, the label of "popular"
has a plurality of connotations; we should look beyond the denotations
of "popular." I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not
see Indian politicians from the same mould. This is what I am saying.
I am not banging on the proud swadeshi Indian. People like me will
always make connections and analogies that I can only hope others may
see. These are not done casually, are not tormented by any stretch of
imagination, but may just be a bit more visually forceful than the
comfort level in this forum.

Now JF may respond by at least saying he got the gist of what I am
saying, or that it is pure gibberish.

venantius j pinto
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
I do not understand what Venantius Pinto is trying to say in context of the subject line. The report indicates the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated, one should take it at face value. And if one says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming to such a conclusion.
There are indeed many faults in the Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey have done.
Sachin Phadte
________________________________
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-16 07:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Venantius Pinto says: "I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not see Indian politicians from the same mould."

I do not know what exactly are the questions that were asked of the persons interviewed, but would it not be safe to presume that the opinion sought is of the Indians as a whole, and NOT of the politicians?

In his earlier message, Venantius said: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese."

The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love.

In case of India the respective figures are 22% and 69%.

Sachin Phadte

_________________________________________________________________
Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in
http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-16 17:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Neither of us know what the questions were, or at least I do not. My
views had strictly to do with adddresing Jerry Fernandes and not
merely ignoring his question or saying, "Its cool that India is the
sixth most popular country in the world." I have no clue as to who
Jerry Fernandes is, and I am sure there will be others who will post
such questions; but that question deserved my kind of a response. I do
not wish to get into statistical reasoning, but do know enough to say
that data, and data towards certain opinions is often made to fit a
conclusion.

But if it is important to believe India's popularity, and that we
should take the "WASHINGTON (Agencies)" excerpt from Jerry Fernandes
at face value -- I concede. It does not hurt me to concede, since it
gives me a better sense than I thought of how we see things. One
example, "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents
viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data
would indicate love." The data simply indicates that MORE people
viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of
qualitative analysis?
_____________________________
On another note, I finally see that the largely the topics that seems
to run well on Goanet are politics as in governing the state, and
Valmiki Faleiro's columns. Thanks heavens for those columns becuase no
matter what (rain or shine, joy or depressin, I would think) they give
one and all (people from every political motivation and those who are
independent), glimpses into the near Goan past, while pointing towards
the future of our making.

This is my last post on "India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans."

venantius
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Venantius Pinto says: "I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not see Indian politicians from the same mould."
I do not know what exactly are the questions that were asked of the persons interviewed, but would it not be safe to presume that the opinion sought is of the Indians as a whole, and NOT of the politicians?
In his earlier message, Venantius said: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese."
The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love.
In case of India the respective figures are 22% and 69%.
Sachin Phadte
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-17 06:46:52 UTC
Permalink
To my comment: "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love."

Venantius Pinto responds: "The data simply indicates that MORE people viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of qualitative analysis?"

If Venantius had read his own posting carefully, it would be clear that he was the one who brought love in the picture. He had written: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese." I had included this quote of his in the message to which Venantius responded.

Sachin Phadte


_________________________________________________________________
Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in
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Mario Goveia
2008-03-17 15:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Fri Mar 14 19:48:12 PDT 2008
From Mervyn Lobo mervynalobo at yahoo.ca
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?
Mario responds:
I don't think so, Mervyn. It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America. If you were correct, the number of applications for residency in America would not have increased so sharply from the days when you apparently had applied. Neither would the desperate attempts to get into America, illegally if necessary.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-17 21:38:29 UTC
Permalink
As the worthy discussant that you are, I had wriiten an elaborate
response to your post with the incomplete excerpt, but lost my post
due to a Gmail hiccup--my first. So in brief here is what I said with
the prodigal sentence beginning with "Why":
"But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA."

Perhaps you inadvertently missed the sentence immediately following
the one you employed to make your case, Once that sentence is in place
it becomes clear that I was looking at Nation States--their power
brokers (elites if you will) and not survey responders. I am pleased
that you went back to the earlier email, and I hope other do too. I am
disappointed that I lost my text. I had also nailed the grammar on
that one.

venantius
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
To my comment: "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love."
Venantius Pinto responds: "The data simply indicates that MORE people viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of qualitative analysis?"
If Venantius had read his own posting carefully, it would be clear that he was the one who brought love in the picture. He had written: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese." I had included this quote of his in the message to which Venantius responded.
Sachin Phadte
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-18 13:53:38 UTC
Permalink
From Jerry Fernandes's message, I get a feeling that he is questioning the validity of the survey. Or perhaps he feels that Venantius Pinto is questioning the validity. If my feeling is wrong, please ignore the rest of the message.
We should understand that the survey did not question the respondents only about India. They were asked to give their opinion about other countries like Great Britain, Russia, China, Japan, etc. And there were five other countries that scored better than India in the survey.

I am told that such surveys are done quite scientifically. Despite that, surveys do make mistakes, some horrible ones also. However, I doubt that in this case the mistake would be such that instead of being the 6th best, the Americans view India as the 6th worst.

Sachin Phadte


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Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-19 02:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America.
Mario,
I live in America. I am very familiar with the conditions here ;-)

You are now the second person on Goanet who claims no one knows anything about culture/conditions unless or until it is approved by themselves :-)

I am so sure I know the intricacies and the conditions of America that I willing to be scrutinized by you (and Dr* Rajan Parrikar if necessary) to prove the same.


Mervyn3.0
The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
- Vladimir Lenin -





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Mario Goveia
2008-03-18 16:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Thu Mar 13 21:47:12 PDT 2008
Sat Mar 15 17:57:41 PDT 2008, and
Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:38:29 -0400
From: "Venantius Pinto" <venantius.pinto at gmail.com>
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the media.
Mario responds:
Venantius, not to be picky, but one scientific poll is just a statistical snapshot of opinion, not necessarily a consensus. Properly designed and conducted and repeated consistently, it can track a statistical trend, may identify a consensus, and form a valid tool that can be used in decisionmaking.
Should Indians care of what Americans think about it? Of course they should, because India has developed such a close working relationship with the US and its enormous economy where much of the demand for India's services and brain-power comes from. Indians should be delighted at their growing popularity in the US because it shows a reciprocation - similar polls have shown that the US is more popular in India than in many other countries.
Venantius wrote:
There are good sides to India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not publicly) on anything.
Mario responds:
The communists who are part of the ruling coalition in India are constantly berating the US publicly. The Indian government has no plausible reason to do so. I'm sure they communicate on all matters of interest.
India is following the US lead primarily in freeing up its economy from the millstone of extreme socialism to the benefit of both countries. India offers the US a huge potential market for its own mature economy and the slower growth in its traditional mature foreign markets. A closer working relation ship is a win-win situation for both.
The reason that Indians have been so successful within the highly competitive US economy is because of the natural affinity of most Indians for a free economy, where producing results and personal achievements speak louder than anything else. You must have noticed by now that Indians are very competitive and successful in the US and consequently there is growing respect for India and Indians.
As a reflection of this, when I meet a Caucasian American for the first time today, within five minutes he or she are trying to impress ME with the other Indians they know - who are invariably a respected doctor or engineer, a top student or brilliant professor, an IT professional, a small or large businessman or woman, more recently a Catholic priest or a nun, etc., etc., etc. Quite a change from 37 years ago when the conversation tended towards the weather and snake charmers and elephants and tigers.
India and the US have a lot in common as far as being two beacons of freedom and diversity and tolerance for the most part, with growing economic ties based on common interests and needs and a shared opposition to Islamist fascism which has targeted India since its inception. India has survived 50 wasted years of mindless Fabian socialism and pecksniffian political philosophies during its formative years, which resulted in a massive brain drain that benefited the US tremendously. Now, with the heavy yoke of socialism partially lifted, India is demonstrating the economic growth that it was always capable of, and the US has taken due note, believe me.
Reflecting the growing affinity, President Bush offered India a nuclear arrangement that would considerably enhance India's capabilities in nuclear generated electric power. Guess who is standing in the way - the same communists who were substantially responsible for India's economic malaise before Manmohan Singh began the process of liberalization - India's euphemism for shedding extreme socialism.
Venantius wrote:
If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.
Mario observes:
China and the US used to be mortal enemies during the Cold War. The US and China fought each other in both Korea and VietNam. Besides, the US has guaranteed the freedom and autonomy of democratic Taiwan, which China claims for itself and would try and annex by force if it were not for the US.
Subsequently the Chinese have realized the economic folly of communism, and decided to follow a semi-capitalist model which is raising the standard of living in China. China is providing inexpensive quality products to the US marketplace which has served to keep inflation low for the American consumer. This is an example of business interests creating a win-win situation for both. Now China has a somewhat vested interest in the US economy on which it depends for a large share of its own economy.
Americans don't "love" and admire the Chinese across the board in the conventional sense. They have little in common in many areas. However, their growing working relationship based on common business interests has cooled the hostility in the other areas. This is a good thing. As an example of this, China played a key role in getting N. Korea to give up its nuclear ambitions, which will benefit that miserable backwater of failed communism in the years ahead.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Paraphrasing Ronald Reagan.
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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-19 15:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Venantius, not to be picky, but one scientific poll is just a statistical snapshot of opinion, not necessarily a consensus. Properly designed and conducted and repeated consistently, it can track a statistical trend, may identify a consensus, and form a valid tool that can be used in decisionmaking.
VJP: Mario, the points you make are well taken.

venantius
Mario Goveia
2008-03-21 17:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:
It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America.
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:32:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
Mario,
I live in America. I am very familiar with the conditions here ;-)
Mario responds:
Maybe. Maybe not. The America in this discussion is the US, not Canada.
Mervyn wrote:
I am so sure I know the intricacies and the conditions of America that I willing to be scrutinized by you (and Dr* Rajan Parrikar if necessary) to prove the same.
Mario responds:
You have already proved what I need to know to my full satisfaction with your unrecognizable comments about the US:-))
Mervyn wrote:
The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
- Vladimir Lenin -
Mario responds:
You must think Lenin did a great job with the economy of the Soviet Union:-))
"A communist is someone who reads Marx and Lenin. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx and Lenin." Paraphrasing and adapting comments by Ronald Reagan.
Jerry Fernandes
2008-03-13 08:58:43 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Netters

Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.

So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?

Cheers

Jerry

India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mario Goveia
2008-03-13 22:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Date: 13 Mar 2008 08:58:43 -0000
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Mario responds:
Hey, Jerry,
Isn't India still the land of snake charmers?:-))
I am surprised India was ranked as low as No. 6.
Your impressions of the US sound like when I first came here 37 years ago. Obviously you are completely out of touch with the US of today where Indian doctors, engineers, IT specialists, college professors, small and large business owners, even Catholic priests and nuns flourish and are highly respected.
Indian-Americans have been the highest ranked ethnic community in the US by family income since the 1980 census and the recently elected Governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, is the son of Indian immigrants.
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-14 04:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Mario Goveia
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-15 02:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic
carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?

Mervyn3.0
Police were called to a daycare where a three-year-old was resisting a rest.


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Sachin Phadte
2008-03-15 04:19:28 UTC
Permalink
I do not understand what Venantius Pinto is trying to say in context of the subject line. The report indicates the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated, one should take it at face value. And if one says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming to such a conclusion.

There are indeed many faults in the Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey have done.

Sachin Phadte


_________________________________________________________________
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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-16 00:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Dear Sachin,
It would have helped if you asked specifically which part you did not
understand. I must say that the my grammar in my post is not the
finest. But other than I believe the ideas do come across. In all
probability no one else may respond, so here is what I meant. The
thread as you know began with Jerry Fernandes' query reproduced below.
When that question was asked by JF, "Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India
amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?" [WASHINGTON
(Agencies)], I responded; answering your vide, "The report indicates
the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated,
one should take it at face value" I do not need to say it is
manipulated, but since you ask questions in tandem -- SP: "And if one
says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming
to such a conclusion," I shall point the general rational behind my
response, and not specific details. I do sense that you feel I am
being irresponsible towards India.

We give our opinions (as if they matter) on a plethora of issues in
this forum. I gave my opinion based on how I viewed JFs question. I
could have made little of it, but too it seriously, and cared to
explain, but also giving examples that force one to think for oneself
-- whether one wishes to do so or not. This is where it begins. I
began by looking briefly at the word "popular" (CAPPED by me in the
excerpt from Jerry Fernandes below), by making an analogy between the
qualities (largely superficial) between a human and extrapolating
those notions (but seeing them deeply and relating them to the country
as an being) onto country -- in this case India. What I am doing is
attempting to nail down why India is considered as being popular in
the imagination/analysis/or survey of the WASHINGTON Agencies. I also
said, "There are good sides to India, but the USA is comfortable with
an India which is assiduously following its lead on many
issues...(economically motivated) This as well as my examples should
be a response to your point, "There are indeed many faults in the
Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the
broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey
have done."

I am not allowing myself to be held in thrall by the pronouncement of
the "popular" for two reasons. First of all, although an Indian I am
not impressed with notions of popularity, and secondly having lived a
life of observation (as have others too) -- the media is the media,
and being the media, seen it(the media) puts out news, including
facts, largely based on the interests of power brokers. So my response
must be seen within this duality.
Post by Jerry Fernandes
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most POPULAR country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
So my picture, is a broad picture, and will always be a broad picture.
My expressive temper may come across as harsh, but it aims for
precision and the splintering of obfuscation or pithy statements,
which we inadvertently absorb into our social identities. India is
complex, and I do understand that, but India like any other country
has its interests and protects or protests based on how our Mandarins
(very important term here) see themselves, themselves as India, and
India as in themselves. So what I am saying is, the label of "popular"
has a plurality of connotations; we should look beyond the denotations
of "popular." I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not
see Indian politicians from the same mould. This is what I am saying.
I am not banging on the proud swadeshi Indian. People like me will
always make connections and analogies that I can only hope others may
see. These are not done casually, are not tormented by any stretch of
imagination, but may just be a bit more visually forceful than the
comfort level in this forum.

Now JF may respond by at least saying he got the gist of what I am
saying, or that it is pure gibberish.

venantius j pinto
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
I do not understand what Venantius Pinto is trying to say in context of the subject line. The report indicates the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated, one should take it at face value. And if one says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming to such a conclusion.
There are indeed many faults in the Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey have done.
Sachin Phadte
________________________________
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-16 07:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Venantius Pinto says: "I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not see Indian politicians from the same mould."

I do not know what exactly are the questions that were asked of the persons interviewed, but would it not be safe to presume that the opinion sought is of the Indians as a whole, and NOT of the politicians?

In his earlier message, Venantius said: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese."

The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love.

In case of India the respective figures are 22% and 69%.

Sachin Phadte

_________________________________________________________________
Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in
http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-16 17:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Neither of us know what the questions were, or at least I do not. My
views had strictly to do with adddresing Jerry Fernandes and not
merely ignoring his question or saying, "Its cool that India is the
sixth most popular country in the world." I have no clue as to who
Jerry Fernandes is, and I am sure there will be others who will post
such questions; but that question deserved my kind of a response. I do
not wish to get into statistical reasoning, but do know enough to say
that data, and data towards certain opinions is often made to fit a
conclusion.

But if it is important to believe India's popularity, and that we
should take the "WASHINGTON (Agencies)" excerpt from Jerry Fernandes
at face value -- I concede. It does not hurt me to concede, since it
gives me a better sense than I thought of how we see things. One
example, "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents
viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data
would indicate love." The data simply indicates that MORE people
viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of
qualitative analysis?
_____________________________
On another note, I finally see that the largely the topics that seems
to run well on Goanet are politics as in governing the state, and
Valmiki Faleiro's columns. Thanks heavens for those columns becuase no
matter what (rain or shine, joy or depressin, I would think) they give
one and all (people from every political motivation and those who are
independent), glimpses into the near Goan past, while pointing towards
the future of our making.

This is my last post on "India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans."

venantius
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Venantius Pinto says: "I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not see Indian politicians from the same mould."
I do not know what exactly are the questions that were asked of the persons interviewed, but would it not be safe to presume that the opinion sought is of the Indians as a whole, and NOT of the politicians?
In his earlier message, Venantius said: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese."
The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love.
In case of India the respective figures are 22% and 69%.
Sachin Phadte
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-17 06:46:52 UTC
Permalink
To my comment: "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love."

Venantius Pinto responds: "The data simply indicates that MORE people viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of qualitative analysis?"

If Venantius had read his own posting carefully, it would be clear that he was the one who brought love in the picture. He had written: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese." I had included this quote of his in the message to which Venantius responded.

Sachin Phadte


_________________________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2008-03-17 15:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Fri Mar 14 19:48:12 PDT 2008
From Mervyn Lobo mervynalobo at yahoo.ca
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?
Mario responds:
I don't think so, Mervyn. It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America. If you were correct, the number of applications for residency in America would not have increased so sharply from the days when you apparently had applied. Neither would the desperate attempts to get into America, illegally if necessary.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-17 21:38:29 UTC
Permalink
As the worthy discussant that you are, I had wriiten an elaborate
response to your post with the incomplete excerpt, but lost my post
due to a Gmail hiccup--my first. So in brief here is what I said with
the prodigal sentence beginning with "Why":
"But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA."

Perhaps you inadvertently missed the sentence immediately following
the one you employed to make your case, Once that sentence is in place
it becomes clear that I was looking at Nation States--their power
brokers (elites if you will) and not survey responders. I am pleased
that you went back to the earlier email, and I hope other do too. I am
disappointed that I lost my text. I had also nailed the grammar on
that one.

venantius
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
To my comment: "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love."
Venantius Pinto responds: "The data simply indicates that MORE people viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of qualitative analysis?"
If Venantius had read his own posting carefully, it would be clear that he was the one who brought love in the picture. He had written: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese." I had included this quote of his in the message to which Venantius responded.
Sachin Phadte
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-18 13:53:38 UTC
Permalink
From Jerry Fernandes's message, I get a feeling that he is questioning the validity of the survey. Or perhaps he feels that Venantius Pinto is questioning the validity. If my feeling is wrong, please ignore the rest of the message.
We should understand that the survey did not question the respondents only about India. They were asked to give their opinion about other countries like Great Britain, Russia, China, Japan, etc. And there were five other countries that scored better than India in the survey.

I am told that such surveys are done quite scientifically. Despite that, surveys do make mistakes, some horrible ones also. However, I doubt that in this case the mistake would be such that instead of being the 6th best, the Americans view India as the 6th worst.

Sachin Phadte


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Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-19 02:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America.
Mario,
I live in America. I am very familiar with the conditions here ;-)

You are now the second person on Goanet who claims no one knows anything about culture/conditions unless or until it is approved by themselves :-)

I am so sure I know the intricacies and the conditions of America that I willing to be scrutinized by you (and Dr* Rajan Parrikar if necessary) to prove the same.


Mervyn3.0
The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
- Vladimir Lenin -





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Mario Goveia
2008-03-18 16:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Thu Mar 13 21:47:12 PDT 2008
Sat Mar 15 17:57:41 PDT 2008, and
Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:38:29 -0400
From: "Venantius Pinto" <venantius.pinto at gmail.com>
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the media.
Mario responds:
Venantius, not to be picky, but one scientific poll is just a statistical snapshot of opinion, not necessarily a consensus. Properly designed and conducted and repeated consistently, it can track a statistical trend, may identify a consensus, and form a valid tool that can be used in decisionmaking.
Should Indians care of what Americans think about it? Of course they should, because India has developed such a close working relationship with the US and its enormous economy where much of the demand for India's services and brain-power comes from. Indians should be delighted at their growing popularity in the US because it shows a reciprocation - similar polls have shown that the US is more popular in India than in many other countries.
Venantius wrote:
There are good sides to India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not publicly) on anything.
Mario responds:
The communists who are part of the ruling coalition in India are constantly berating the US publicly. The Indian government has no plausible reason to do so. I'm sure they communicate on all matters of interest.
India is following the US lead primarily in freeing up its economy from the millstone of extreme socialism to the benefit of both countries. India offers the US a huge potential market for its own mature economy and the slower growth in its traditional mature foreign markets. A closer working relation ship is a win-win situation for both.
The reason that Indians have been so successful within the highly competitive US economy is because of the natural affinity of most Indians for a free economy, where producing results and personal achievements speak louder than anything else. You must have noticed by now that Indians are very competitive and successful in the US and consequently there is growing respect for India and Indians.
As a reflection of this, when I meet a Caucasian American for the first time today, within five minutes he or she are trying to impress ME with the other Indians they know - who are invariably a respected doctor or engineer, a top student or brilliant professor, an IT professional, a small or large businessman or woman, more recently a Catholic priest or a nun, etc., etc., etc. Quite a change from 37 years ago when the conversation tended towards the weather and snake charmers and elephants and tigers.
India and the US have a lot in common as far as being two beacons of freedom and diversity and tolerance for the most part, with growing economic ties based on common interests and needs and a shared opposition to Islamist fascism which has targeted India since its inception. India has survived 50 wasted years of mindless Fabian socialism and pecksniffian political philosophies during its formative years, which resulted in a massive brain drain that benefited the US tremendously. Now, with the heavy yoke of socialism partially lifted, India is demonstrating the economic growth that it was always capable of, and the US has taken due note, believe me.
Reflecting the growing affinity, President Bush offered India a nuclear arrangement that would considerably enhance India's capabilities in nuclear generated electric power. Guess who is standing in the way - the same communists who were substantially responsible for India's economic malaise before Manmohan Singh began the process of liberalization - India's euphemism for shedding extreme socialism.
Venantius wrote:
If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.
Mario observes:
China and the US used to be mortal enemies during the Cold War. The US and China fought each other in both Korea and VietNam. Besides, the US has guaranteed the freedom and autonomy of democratic Taiwan, which China claims for itself and would try and annex by force if it were not for the US.
Subsequently the Chinese have realized the economic folly of communism, and decided to follow a semi-capitalist model which is raising the standard of living in China. China is providing inexpensive quality products to the US marketplace which has served to keep inflation low for the American consumer. This is an example of business interests creating a win-win situation for both. Now China has a somewhat vested interest in the US economy on which it depends for a large share of its own economy.
Americans don't "love" and admire the Chinese across the board in the conventional sense. They have little in common in many areas. However, their growing working relationship based on common business interests has cooled the hostility in the other areas. This is a good thing. As an example of this, China played a key role in getting N. Korea to give up its nuclear ambitions, which will benefit that miserable backwater of failed communism in the years ahead.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Paraphrasing Ronald Reagan.
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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-19 15:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Venantius, not to be picky, but one scientific poll is just a statistical snapshot of opinion, not necessarily a consensus. Properly designed and conducted and repeated consistently, it can track a statistical trend, may identify a consensus, and form a valid tool that can be used in decisionmaking.
VJP: Mario, the points you make are well taken.

venantius
Mario Goveia
2008-03-21 17:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:
It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America.
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:32:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
Mario,
I live in America. I am very familiar with the conditions here ;-)
Mario responds:
Maybe. Maybe not. The America in this discussion is the US, not Canada.
Mervyn wrote:
I am so sure I know the intricacies and the conditions of America that I willing to be scrutinized by you (and Dr* Rajan Parrikar if necessary) to prove the same.
Mario responds:
You have already proved what I need to know to my full satisfaction with your unrecognizable comments about the US:-))
Mervyn wrote:
The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
- Vladimir Lenin -
Mario responds:
You must think Lenin did a great job with the economy of the Soviet Union:-))
"A communist is someone who reads Marx and Lenin. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx and Lenin." Paraphrasing and adapting comments by Ronald Reagan.
Jerry Fernandes
2008-03-13 08:58:43 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Netters

Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.

So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?

Cheers

Jerry

India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mario Goveia
2008-03-13 22:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Date: 13 Mar 2008 08:58:43 -0000
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Mario responds:
Hey, Jerry,
Isn't India still the land of snake charmers?:-))
I am surprised India was ranked as low as No. 6.
Your impressions of the US sound like when I first came here 37 years ago. Obviously you are completely out of touch with the US of today where Indian doctors, engineers, IT specialists, college professors, small and large business owners, even Catholic priests and nuns flourish and are highly respected.
Indian-Americans have been the highest ranked ethnic community in the US by family income since the 1980 census and the recently elected Governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, is the son of Indian immigrants.
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-14 04:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Mario Goveia
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-15 02:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic
carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?

Mervyn3.0
Police were called to a daycare where a three-year-old was resisting a rest.


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Sachin Phadte
2008-03-15 04:19:28 UTC
Permalink
I do not understand what Venantius Pinto is trying to say in context of the subject line. The report indicates the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated, one should take it at face value. And if one says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming to such a conclusion.

There are indeed many faults in the Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey have done.

Sachin Phadte


_________________________________________________________________
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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-16 00:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Dear Sachin,
It would have helped if you asked specifically which part you did not
understand. I must say that the my grammar in my post is not the
finest. But other than I believe the ideas do come across. In all
probability no one else may respond, so here is what I meant. The
thread as you know began with Jerry Fernandes' query reproduced below.
When that question was asked by JF, "Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India
amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?" [WASHINGTON
(Agencies)], I responded; answering your vide, "The report indicates
the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated,
one should take it at face value" I do not need to say it is
manipulated, but since you ask questions in tandem -- SP: "And if one
says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming
to such a conclusion," I shall point the general rational behind my
response, and not specific details. I do sense that you feel I am
being irresponsible towards India.

We give our opinions (as if they matter) on a plethora of issues in
this forum. I gave my opinion based on how I viewed JFs question. I
could have made little of it, but too it seriously, and cared to
explain, but also giving examples that force one to think for oneself
-- whether one wishes to do so or not. This is where it begins. I
began by looking briefly at the word "popular" (CAPPED by me in the
excerpt from Jerry Fernandes below), by making an analogy between the
qualities (largely superficial) between a human and extrapolating
those notions (but seeing them deeply and relating them to the country
as an being) onto country -- in this case India. What I am doing is
attempting to nail down why India is considered as being popular in
the imagination/analysis/or survey of the WASHINGTON Agencies. I also
said, "There are good sides to India, but the USA is comfortable with
an India which is assiduously following its lead on many
issues...(economically motivated) This as well as my examples should
be a response to your point, "There are indeed many faults in the
Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the
broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey
have done."

I am not allowing myself to be held in thrall by the pronouncement of
the "popular" for two reasons. First of all, although an Indian I am
not impressed with notions of popularity, and secondly having lived a
life of observation (as have others too) -- the media is the media,
and being the media, seen it(the media) puts out news, including
facts, largely based on the interests of power brokers. So my response
must be seen within this duality.
Post by Jerry Fernandes
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most POPULAR country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
So my picture, is a broad picture, and will always be a broad picture.
My expressive temper may come across as harsh, but it aims for
precision and the splintering of obfuscation or pithy statements,
which we inadvertently absorb into our social identities. India is
complex, and I do understand that, but India like any other country
has its interests and protects or protests based on how our Mandarins
(very important term here) see themselves, themselves as India, and
India as in themselves. So what I am saying is, the label of "popular"
has a plurality of connotations; we should look beyond the denotations
of "popular." I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not
see Indian politicians from the same mould. This is what I am saying.
I am not banging on the proud swadeshi Indian. People like me will
always make connections and analogies that I can only hope others may
see. These are not done casually, are not tormented by any stretch of
imagination, but may just be a bit more visually forceful than the
comfort level in this forum.

Now JF may respond by at least saying he got the gist of what I am
saying, or that it is pure gibberish.

venantius j pinto
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
I do not understand what Venantius Pinto is trying to say in context of the subject line. The report indicates the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated, one should take it at face value. And if one says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming to such a conclusion.
There are indeed many faults in the Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey have done.
Sachin Phadte
________________________________
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-16 07:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Venantius Pinto says: "I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not see Indian politicians from the same mould."

I do not know what exactly are the questions that were asked of the persons interviewed, but would it not be safe to presume that the opinion sought is of the Indians as a whole, and NOT of the politicians?

In his earlier message, Venantius said: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese."

The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love.

In case of India the respective figures are 22% and 69%.

Sachin Phadte

_________________________________________________________________
Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in
http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-16 17:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Neither of us know what the questions were, or at least I do not. My
views had strictly to do with adddresing Jerry Fernandes and not
merely ignoring his question or saying, "Its cool that India is the
sixth most popular country in the world." I have no clue as to who
Jerry Fernandes is, and I am sure there will be others who will post
such questions; but that question deserved my kind of a response. I do
not wish to get into statistical reasoning, but do know enough to say
that data, and data towards certain opinions is often made to fit a
conclusion.

But if it is important to believe India's popularity, and that we
should take the "WASHINGTON (Agencies)" excerpt from Jerry Fernandes
at face value -- I concede. It does not hurt me to concede, since it
gives me a better sense than I thought of how we see things. One
example, "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents
viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data
would indicate love." The data simply indicates that MORE people
viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of
qualitative analysis?
_____________________________
On another note, I finally see that the largely the topics that seems
to run well on Goanet are politics as in governing the state, and
Valmiki Faleiro's columns. Thanks heavens for those columns becuase no
matter what (rain or shine, joy or depressin, I would think) they give
one and all (people from every political motivation and those who are
independent), glimpses into the near Goan past, while pointing towards
the future of our making.

This is my last post on "India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans."

venantius
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Venantius Pinto says: "I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not see Indian politicians from the same mould."
I do not know what exactly are the questions that were asked of the persons interviewed, but would it not be safe to presume that the opinion sought is of the Indians as a whole, and NOT of the politicians?
In his earlier message, Venantius said: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese."
The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love.
In case of India the respective figures are 22% and 69%.
Sachin Phadte
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-17 06:46:52 UTC
Permalink
To my comment: "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love."

Venantius Pinto responds: "The data simply indicates that MORE people viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of qualitative analysis?"

If Venantius had read his own posting carefully, it would be clear that he was the one who brought love in the picture. He had written: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese." I had included this quote of his in the message to which Venantius responded.

Sachin Phadte


_________________________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2008-03-17 15:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Fri Mar 14 19:48:12 PDT 2008
From Mervyn Lobo mervynalobo at yahoo.ca
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?
Mario responds:
I don't think so, Mervyn. It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America. If you were correct, the number of applications for residency in America would not have increased so sharply from the days when you apparently had applied. Neither would the desperate attempts to get into America, illegally if necessary.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-17 21:38:29 UTC
Permalink
As the worthy discussant that you are, I had wriiten an elaborate
response to your post with the incomplete excerpt, but lost my post
due to a Gmail hiccup--my first. So in brief here is what I said with
the prodigal sentence beginning with "Why":
"But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA."

Perhaps you inadvertently missed the sentence immediately following
the one you employed to make your case, Once that sentence is in place
it becomes clear that I was looking at Nation States--their power
brokers (elites if you will) and not survey responders. I am pleased
that you went back to the earlier email, and I hope other do too. I am
disappointed that I lost my text. I had also nailed the grammar on
that one.

venantius
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
To my comment: "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love."
Venantius Pinto responds: "The data simply indicates that MORE people viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of qualitative analysis?"
If Venantius had read his own posting carefully, it would be clear that he was the one who brought love in the picture. He had written: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese." I had included this quote of his in the message to which Venantius responded.
Sachin Phadte
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-18 13:53:38 UTC
Permalink
From Jerry Fernandes's message, I get a feeling that he is questioning the validity of the survey. Or perhaps he feels that Venantius Pinto is questioning the validity. If my feeling is wrong, please ignore the rest of the message.
We should understand that the survey did not question the respondents only about India. They were asked to give their opinion about other countries like Great Britain, Russia, China, Japan, etc. And there were five other countries that scored better than India in the survey.

I am told that such surveys are done quite scientifically. Despite that, surveys do make mistakes, some horrible ones also. However, I doubt that in this case the mistake would be such that instead of being the 6th best, the Americans view India as the 6th worst.

Sachin Phadte


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Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-19 02:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America.
Mario,
I live in America. I am very familiar with the conditions here ;-)

You are now the second person on Goanet who claims no one knows anything about culture/conditions unless or until it is approved by themselves :-)

I am so sure I know the intricacies and the conditions of America that I willing to be scrutinized by you (and Dr* Rajan Parrikar if necessary) to prove the same.


Mervyn3.0
The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
- Vladimir Lenin -





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Mario Goveia
2008-03-18 16:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Thu Mar 13 21:47:12 PDT 2008
Sat Mar 15 17:57:41 PDT 2008, and
Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:38:29 -0400
From: "Venantius Pinto" <venantius.pinto at gmail.com>
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the media.
Mario responds:
Venantius, not to be picky, but one scientific poll is just a statistical snapshot of opinion, not necessarily a consensus. Properly designed and conducted and repeated consistently, it can track a statistical trend, may identify a consensus, and form a valid tool that can be used in decisionmaking.
Should Indians care of what Americans think about it? Of course they should, because India has developed such a close working relationship with the US and its enormous economy where much of the demand for India's services and brain-power comes from. Indians should be delighted at their growing popularity in the US because it shows a reciprocation - similar polls have shown that the US is more popular in India than in many other countries.
Venantius wrote:
There are good sides to India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not publicly) on anything.
Mario responds:
The communists who are part of the ruling coalition in India are constantly berating the US publicly. The Indian government has no plausible reason to do so. I'm sure they communicate on all matters of interest.
India is following the US lead primarily in freeing up its economy from the millstone of extreme socialism to the benefit of both countries. India offers the US a huge potential market for its own mature economy and the slower growth in its traditional mature foreign markets. A closer working relation ship is a win-win situation for both.
The reason that Indians have been so successful within the highly competitive US economy is because of the natural affinity of most Indians for a free economy, where producing results and personal achievements speak louder than anything else. You must have noticed by now that Indians are very competitive and successful in the US and consequently there is growing respect for India and Indians.
As a reflection of this, when I meet a Caucasian American for the first time today, within five minutes he or she are trying to impress ME with the other Indians they know - who are invariably a respected doctor or engineer, a top student or brilliant professor, an IT professional, a small or large businessman or woman, more recently a Catholic priest or a nun, etc., etc., etc. Quite a change from 37 years ago when the conversation tended towards the weather and snake charmers and elephants and tigers.
India and the US have a lot in common as far as being two beacons of freedom and diversity and tolerance for the most part, with growing economic ties based on common interests and needs and a shared opposition to Islamist fascism which has targeted India since its inception. India has survived 50 wasted years of mindless Fabian socialism and pecksniffian political philosophies during its formative years, which resulted in a massive brain drain that benefited the US tremendously. Now, with the heavy yoke of socialism partially lifted, India is demonstrating the economic growth that it was always capable of, and the US has taken due note, believe me.
Reflecting the growing affinity, President Bush offered India a nuclear arrangement that would considerably enhance India's capabilities in nuclear generated electric power. Guess who is standing in the way - the same communists who were substantially responsible for India's economic malaise before Manmohan Singh began the process of liberalization - India's euphemism for shedding extreme socialism.
Venantius wrote:
If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.
Mario observes:
China and the US used to be mortal enemies during the Cold War. The US and China fought each other in both Korea and VietNam. Besides, the US has guaranteed the freedom and autonomy of democratic Taiwan, which China claims for itself and would try and annex by force if it were not for the US.
Subsequently the Chinese have realized the economic folly of communism, and decided to follow a semi-capitalist model which is raising the standard of living in China. China is providing inexpensive quality products to the US marketplace which has served to keep inflation low for the American consumer. This is an example of business interests creating a win-win situation for both. Now China has a somewhat vested interest in the US economy on which it depends for a large share of its own economy.
Americans don't "love" and admire the Chinese across the board in the conventional sense. They have little in common in many areas. However, their growing working relationship based on common business interests has cooled the hostility in the other areas. This is a good thing. As an example of this, China played a key role in getting N. Korea to give up its nuclear ambitions, which will benefit that miserable backwater of failed communism in the years ahead.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Paraphrasing Ronald Reagan.
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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-19 15:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Venantius, not to be picky, but one scientific poll is just a statistical snapshot of opinion, not necessarily a consensus. Properly designed and conducted and repeated consistently, it can track a statistical trend, may identify a consensus, and form a valid tool that can be used in decisionmaking.
VJP: Mario, the points you make are well taken.

venantius
Mario Goveia
2008-03-21 17:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:
It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America.
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:32:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
Mario,
I live in America. I am very familiar with the conditions here ;-)
Mario responds:
Maybe. Maybe not. The America in this discussion is the US, not Canada.
Mervyn wrote:
I am so sure I know the intricacies and the conditions of America that I willing to be scrutinized by you (and Dr* Rajan Parrikar if necessary) to prove the same.
Mario responds:
You have already proved what I need to know to my full satisfaction with your unrecognizable comments about the US:-))
Mervyn wrote:
The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
- Vladimir Lenin -
Mario responds:
You must think Lenin did a great job with the economy of the Soviet Union:-))
"A communist is someone who reads Marx and Lenin. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx and Lenin." Paraphrasing and adapting comments by Ronald Reagan.
Jerry Fernandes
2008-03-13 08:58:43 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Netters

Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.

So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?

Cheers

Jerry

India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mario Goveia
2008-03-13 22:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Date: 13 Mar 2008 08:58:43 -0000
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Mario responds:
Hey, Jerry,
Isn't India still the land of snake charmers?:-))
I am surprised India was ranked as low as No. 6.
Your impressions of the US sound like when I first came here 37 years ago. Obviously you are completely out of touch with the US of today where Indian doctors, engineers, IT specialists, college professors, small and large business owners, even Catholic priests and nuns flourish and are highly respected.
Indian-Americans have been the highest ranked ethnic community in the US by family income since the 1980 census and the recently elected Governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, is the son of Indian immigrants.
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-14 04:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Mario Goveia
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-15 02:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic
carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?

Mervyn3.0
Police were called to a daycare where a three-year-old was resisting a rest.


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Sachin Phadte
2008-03-15 04:19:28 UTC
Permalink
I do not understand what Venantius Pinto is trying to say in context of the subject line. The report indicates the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated, one should take it at face value. And if one says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming to such a conclusion.

There are indeed many faults in the Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey have done.

Sachin Phadte


_________________________________________________________________
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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-16 00:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Dear Sachin,
It would have helped if you asked specifically which part you did not
understand. I must say that the my grammar in my post is not the
finest. But other than I believe the ideas do come across. In all
probability no one else may respond, so here is what I meant. The
thread as you know began with Jerry Fernandes' query reproduced below.
When that question was asked by JF, "Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India
amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?" [WASHINGTON
(Agencies)], I responded; answering your vide, "The report indicates
the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated,
one should take it at face value" I do not need to say it is
manipulated, but since you ask questions in tandem -- SP: "And if one
says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming
to such a conclusion," I shall point the general rational behind my
response, and not specific details. I do sense that you feel I am
being irresponsible towards India.

We give our opinions (as if they matter) on a plethora of issues in
this forum. I gave my opinion based on how I viewed JFs question. I
could have made little of it, but too it seriously, and cared to
explain, but also giving examples that force one to think for oneself
-- whether one wishes to do so or not. This is where it begins. I
began by looking briefly at the word "popular" (CAPPED by me in the
excerpt from Jerry Fernandes below), by making an analogy between the
qualities (largely superficial) between a human and extrapolating
those notions (but seeing them deeply and relating them to the country
as an being) onto country -- in this case India. What I am doing is
attempting to nail down why India is considered as being popular in
the imagination/analysis/or survey of the WASHINGTON Agencies. I also
said, "There are good sides to India, but the USA is comfortable with
an India which is assiduously following its lead on many
issues...(economically motivated) This as well as my examples should
be a response to your point, "There are indeed many faults in the
Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the
broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey
have done."

I am not allowing myself to be held in thrall by the pronouncement of
the "popular" for two reasons. First of all, although an Indian I am
not impressed with notions of popularity, and secondly having lived a
life of observation (as have others too) -- the media is the media,
and being the media, seen it(the media) puts out news, including
facts, largely based on the interests of power brokers. So my response
must be seen within this duality.
Post by Jerry Fernandes
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most POPULAR country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
So my picture, is a broad picture, and will always be a broad picture.
My expressive temper may come across as harsh, but it aims for
precision and the splintering of obfuscation or pithy statements,
which we inadvertently absorb into our social identities. India is
complex, and I do understand that, but India like any other country
has its interests and protects or protests based on how our Mandarins
(very important term here) see themselves, themselves as India, and
India as in themselves. So what I am saying is, the label of "popular"
has a plurality of connotations; we should look beyond the denotations
of "popular." I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not
see Indian politicians from the same mould. This is what I am saying.
I am not banging on the proud swadeshi Indian. People like me will
always make connections and analogies that I can only hope others may
see. These are not done casually, are not tormented by any stretch of
imagination, but may just be a bit more visually forceful than the
comfort level in this forum.

Now JF may respond by at least saying he got the gist of what I am
saying, or that it is pure gibberish.

venantius j pinto
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
I do not understand what Venantius Pinto is trying to say in context of the subject line. The report indicates the results of a survey, and unless one says that it is manipulated, one should take it at face value. And if one says it is manipulated, one should give the reasons why one is coming to such a conclusion.
There are indeed many faults in the Indian society, and amongst the Indians. However, one has to see the broader picture, and this is what those who responded to the survey have done.
Sachin Phadte
________________________________
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-16 07:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Venantius Pinto says: "I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not see Indian politicians from the same mould."

I do not know what exactly are the questions that were asked of the persons interviewed, but would it not be safe to presume that the opinion sought is of the Indians as a whole, and NOT of the politicians?

In his earlier message, Venantius said: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese."

The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love.

In case of India the respective figures are 22% and 69%.

Sachin Phadte

_________________________________________________________________
Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in
http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-16 17:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Neither of us know what the questions were, or at least I do not. My
views had strictly to do with adddresing Jerry Fernandes and not
merely ignoring his question or saying, "Its cool that India is the
sixth most popular country in the world." I have no clue as to who
Jerry Fernandes is, and I am sure there will be others who will post
such questions; but that question deserved my kind of a response. I do
not wish to get into statistical reasoning, but do know enough to say
that data, and data towards certain opinions is often made to fit a
conclusion.

But if it is important to believe India's popularity, and that we
should take the "WASHINGTON (Agencies)" excerpt from Jerry Fernandes
at face value -- I concede. It does not hurt me to concede, since it
gives me a better sense than I thought of how we see things. One
example, "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents
viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data
would indicate love." The data simply indicates that MORE people
viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of
qualitative analysis?
_____________________________
On another note, I finally see that the largely the topics that seems
to run well on Goanet are politics as in governing the state, and
Valmiki Faleiro's columns. Thanks heavens for those columns becuase no
matter what (rain or shine, joy or depressin, I would think) they give
one and all (people from every political motivation and those who are
independent), glimpses into the near Goan past, while pointing towards
the future of our making.

This is my last post on "India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans."

venantius
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Venantius Pinto says: "I see Indians as reasonably proud people, but I do not see Indian politicians from the same mould."
I do not know what exactly are the questions that were asked of the persons interviewed, but would it not be safe to presume that the opinion sought is of the Indians as a whole, and NOT of the politicians?
In his earlier message, Venantius said: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese."
The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love.
In case of India the respective figures are 22% and 69%.
Sachin Phadte
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-17 06:46:52 UTC
Permalink
To my comment: "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love."

Venantius Pinto responds: "The data simply indicates that MORE people viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of qualitative analysis?"

If Venantius had read his own posting carefully, it would be clear that he was the one who brought love in the picture. He had written: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese." I had included this quote of his in the message to which Venantius responded.

Sachin Phadte


_________________________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2008-03-17 15:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Fri Mar 14 19:48:12 PDT 2008
From Mervyn Lobo mervynalobo at yahoo.ca
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?
Mario responds:
I don't think so, Mervyn. It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America. If you were correct, the number of applications for residency in America would not have increased so sharply from the days when you apparently had applied. Neither would the desperate attempts to get into America, illegally if necessary.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-17 21:38:29 UTC
Permalink
As the worthy discussant that you are, I had wriiten an elaborate
response to your post with the incomplete excerpt, but lost my post
due to a Gmail hiccup--my first. So in brief here is what I said with
the prodigal sentence beginning with "Why":
"But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA."

Perhaps you inadvertently missed the sentence immediately following
the one you employed to make your case, Once that sentence is in place
it becomes clear that I was looking at Nation States--their power
brokers (elites if you will) and not survey responders. I am pleased
that you went back to the earlier email, and I hope other do too. I am
disappointed that I lost my text. I had also nailed the grammar on
that one.

venantius
Post by Jerry Fernandes
From: Sachin Phadte <sachinphadte at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
To my comment: "The news report that I read said that 55% of the respondents viewed China negatively and 42% positively. I do not think this data would indicate love."
Venantius Pinto responds: "The data simply indicates that MORE people viewed China negatively. Why bring in love in -- is this some kind of qualitative analysis?"
If Venantius had read his own posting carefully, it would be clear that he was the one who brought love in the picture. He had written: "But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese." I had included this quote of his in the message to which Venantius responded.
Sachin Phadte
Sachin Phadte
2008-03-18 13:53:38 UTC
Permalink
From Jerry Fernandes's message, I get a feeling that he is questioning the validity of the survey. Or perhaps he feels that Venantius Pinto is questioning the validity. If my feeling is wrong, please ignore the rest of the message.
We should understand that the survey did not question the respondents only about India. They were asked to give their opinion about other countries like Great Britain, Russia, China, Japan, etc. And there were five other countries that scored better than India in the survey.

I am told that such surveys are done quite scientifically. Despite that, surveys do make mistakes, some horrible ones also. However, I doubt that in this case the mistake would be such that instead of being the 6th best, the Americans view India as the 6th worst.

Sachin Phadte


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Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-19 02:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America.
Mario,
I live in America. I am very familiar with the conditions here ;-)

You are now the second person on Goanet who claims no one knows anything about culture/conditions unless or until it is approved by themselves :-)

I am so sure I know the intricacies and the conditions of America that I willing to be scrutinized by you (and Dr* Rajan Parrikar if necessary) to prove the same.


Mervyn3.0
The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
- Vladimir Lenin -





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Mario Goveia
2008-03-18 16:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Thu Mar 13 21:47:12 PDT 2008
Sat Mar 15 17:57:41 PDT 2008, and
Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:38:29 -0400
From: "Venantius Pinto" <venantius.pinto at gmail.com>
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the media.
Mario responds:
Venantius, not to be picky, but one scientific poll is just a statistical snapshot of opinion, not necessarily a consensus. Properly designed and conducted and repeated consistently, it can track a statistical trend, may identify a consensus, and form a valid tool that can be used in decisionmaking.
Should Indians care of what Americans think about it? Of course they should, because India has developed such a close working relationship with the US and its enormous economy where much of the demand for India's services and brain-power comes from. Indians should be delighted at their growing popularity in the US because it shows a reciprocation - similar polls have shown that the US is more popular in India than in many other countries.
Venantius wrote:
There are good sides to India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not publicly) on anything.
Mario responds:
The communists who are part of the ruling coalition in India are constantly berating the US publicly. The Indian government has no plausible reason to do so. I'm sure they communicate on all matters of interest.
India is following the US lead primarily in freeing up its economy from the millstone of extreme socialism to the benefit of both countries. India offers the US a huge potential market for its own mature economy and the slower growth in its traditional mature foreign markets. A closer working relation ship is a win-win situation for both.
The reason that Indians have been so successful within the highly competitive US economy is because of the natural affinity of most Indians for a free economy, where producing results and personal achievements speak louder than anything else. You must have noticed by now that Indians are very competitive and successful in the US and consequently there is growing respect for India and Indians.
As a reflection of this, when I meet a Caucasian American for the first time today, within five minutes he or she are trying to impress ME with the other Indians they know - who are invariably a respected doctor or engineer, a top student or brilliant professor, an IT professional, a small or large businessman or woman, more recently a Catholic priest or a nun, etc., etc., etc. Quite a change from 37 years ago when the conversation tended towards the weather and snake charmers and elephants and tigers.
India and the US have a lot in common as far as being two beacons of freedom and diversity and tolerance for the most part, with growing economic ties based on common interests and needs and a shared opposition to Islamist fascism which has targeted India since its inception. India has survived 50 wasted years of mindless Fabian socialism and pecksniffian political philosophies during its formative years, which resulted in a massive brain drain that benefited the US tremendously. Now, with the heavy yoke of socialism partially lifted, India is demonstrating the economic growth that it was always capable of, and the US has taken due note, believe me.
Reflecting the growing affinity, President Bush offered India a nuclear arrangement that would considerably enhance India's capabilities in nuclear generated electric power. Guess who is standing in the way - the same communists who were substantially responsible for India's economic malaise before Manmohan Singh began the process of liberalization - India's euphemism for shedding extreme socialism.
Venantius wrote:
If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.
Mario observes:
China and the US used to be mortal enemies during the Cold War. The US and China fought each other in both Korea and VietNam. Besides, the US has guaranteed the freedom and autonomy of democratic Taiwan, which China claims for itself and would try and annex by force if it were not for the US.
Subsequently the Chinese have realized the economic folly of communism, and decided to follow a semi-capitalist model which is raising the standard of living in China. China is providing inexpensive quality products to the US marketplace which has served to keep inflation low for the American consumer. This is an example of business interests creating a win-win situation for both. Now China has a somewhat vested interest in the US economy on which it depends for a large share of its own economy.
Americans don't "love" and admire the Chinese across the board in the conventional sense. They have little in common in many areas. However, their growing working relationship based on common business interests has cooled the hostility in the other areas. This is a good thing. As an example of this, China played a key role in getting N. Korea to give up its nuclear ambitions, which will benefit that miserable backwater of failed communism in the years ahead.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Paraphrasing Ronald Reagan.
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Venantius Pinto
2008-03-19 15:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Venantius, not to be picky, but one scientific poll is just a statistical snapshot of opinion, not necessarily a consensus. Properly designed and conducted and repeated consistently, it can track a statistical trend, may identify a consensus, and form a valid tool that can be used in decisionmaking.
VJP: Mario, the points you make are well taken.

venantius
Mario Goveia
2008-03-21 17:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:
It sounds like you are unfamiliar with conditions in both India and America.
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:32:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mervyn Lobo <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
Mario,
I live in America. I am very familiar with the conditions here ;-)
Mario responds:
Maybe. Maybe not. The America in this discussion is the US, not Canada.
Mervyn wrote:
I am so sure I know the intricacies and the conditions of America that I willing to be scrutinized by you (and Dr* Rajan Parrikar if necessary) to prove the same.
Mario responds:
You have already proved what I need to know to my full satisfaction with your unrecognizable comments about the US:-))
Mervyn wrote:
The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
- Vladimir Lenin -
Mario responds:
You must think Lenin did a great job with the economy of the Soviet Union:-))
"A communist is someone who reads Marx and Lenin. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx and Lenin." Paraphrasing and adapting comments by Ronald Reagan.
Jerry Fernandes
2008-03-13 08:58:43 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Netters

Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.

So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?

Cheers

Jerry

India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mario Goveia
2008-03-13 22:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Date: 13 Mar 2008 08:58:43 -0000
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Its surprising to read a news which says that India is the sixth most popular country in US. I remember some years back, it was known as the snake charmers land, and many had no idea of India at all.
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Mario responds:
Hey, Jerry,
Isn't India still the land of snake charmers?:-))
I am surprised India was ranked as low as No. 6.
Your impressions of the US sound like when I first came here 37 years ago. Obviously you are completely out of touch with the US of today where Indian doctors, engineers, IT specialists, college professors, small and large business owners, even Catholic priests and nuns flourish and are highly respected.
Indian-Americans have been the highest ranked ethnic community in the US by family income since the 1980 census and the recently elected Governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, is the son of Indian immigrants.
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Venantius Pinto
2008-03-14 04:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Jerry,
There are many sides to this popularity consensus, which is a
consensus to begin with. But should Indians even care, and who are
those that do concern themselves with such pronouncements in the
media. To be popular means you have something -- in the case of
humans; one is vivacious, elegant, a great pair of legs, and so on and
so forth. They all allude and promise things. With countries, as we
are embraced within late late capitalism -- being popular may have to
do with economic aspects of an economy that enthralls the largest
self-souped up super power. I happen to live in it so see the humor as
well as the depth of the thought process, which is quite deep really,
disarming and illusory. Pure maya really! There are good sides to
India, but the USA is comfortable with an India which is assiduously
following its lead on many issues, unlike other countries less than a
fifth of our size. We do not berate the US (and certainly not
publicly) on anything. We are opening economy in ways that gives
meaning to the existences of the stewards of capital, to the
constantly presumed engorging middle-class, to mirroring their
concepts and constructing images of Protestant asceticism where making
money using a shared model while playing pretense at trickle-down, to
not really making ourselves clear in no uncertain terms about the
relevance of the oil pipeline from Iran, and more than occasionally
doing the shastang to appease which we do not even proverbially do
anymore to our elders. See the track records of parties who have been
in power to see this clearly. We also have the numbers to keep the
surviving financial model continue thriving. Hey, Indians are even
beginning to get enamoured with 18 carat gold. What can you not like
about that. That's free money -- practically. Fibreglass cows will be
next. If an F-16 "strayed" over India, it would certainly not be sent
back in crates as the Chinese did. But despite such acts of
belligerence and a fascinating insult to itself,they still love the
Chinese. Why -- undoubtedly for what China is willing to do to satiate
the bellies of capitalism, their own and that of the USA.

Other than my two bits, it would always be good to get a personal take
from an economist, a stockbroker, one playing the market, or perhaps
even a Goa assimilated bhanya. But these are vain hopes as usual.

venantius

_______________________________________________________
Post by Mario Goveia
From: "Jerry Fernandes" <jerryndes at rediffmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
Dear Netters
So what has brought about this sudden rise in the interest of India amongst the Americans? Is there any truth in this news?
Cheers
Jerry
India, sixth 'Wonder' of Americans
WASHINGTON (Agencies): India is the sixth most popular country in the US, with 69 per cent of the Americans having a positive image about it, while Pakistan finds itself among the 10 most unpopular nations, according to a new poll. Of 22 countries rated in Gallup's 2008 World Affairs survey, Canada, Great Britain, Germany and Japan win favour with at least 80 per cent of Americans. The top four is followed by Israel at 71 per cent. India ties with France at the sixth spot for the positive image. [GT]
Mervyn Lobo
2008-03-15 02:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
India is growing as a popular destination for American tourists and businessmen, and even more would come
if they didn't hear so many stories in the news about rape and murder and corruption and poverty and civic
carelessness, i.e filth, inadequate sanitation systems, spitting all over the place, public urinitating and
defecating, throwing thrash in public places and driving without consideration for anyone else.
Mario,
Americans would feel at home with the rape, murder, poverty, civil carelessness, etc.
After all, isn't the US the world leader in these fields?

Mervyn3.0
Police were called to a daycare where a three-year-old was resisting a rest.


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