Discussion:
[Goanet] RE: Cornel's contention with .... WE ARE ALL GOANS
jose colaco
2006-05-24 13:02:54 UTC
Permalink
From: cornel at btinternet.com


Mario
I have very mildly clashed with Ricardo previously on Goanet. If my memory
serves me well, it was over his contention that, but for the Portuguese, all
Goans would have been of Turkisk/Muslim provenance.

Historically, this could well have been an alternative reality of course, but it was
his implication that, the Goans ought to be grateful for Portuguese colonisation,
because it was a better alternative, that I had found contentious.

As for his next contention below, that, "all Portuguese came from Goa" (with
or without a smiley), I prefer not to waste my time on obvious drivel.

===


Dear Cornel,

I am in the process of reviewing your Vortex article wrt the Portuguese in Goa, as
also the critique which it attracted. We intend to have it on the website as soon as
we have cleared up up a few 'grey' areas ...but for now .... this is is response to
the above from you.

You are a well read man. Pray tell us what you believe would have been the more
likely scenario IF not for the Portuguese arrival in Calicut, and more specifically
the Battle of Diu.

Did Pakistan and (now) Bangladesh become Islamic States by choice?

What about Indonesia ?

Now... please do take the time and explain the contention you have with Ricardo.

Are you saying that the Portuguese arrival and eventual colonization was NOT a
better alternative than the Turkish/Moghal control of Goa?
From your reading of History, would you NOT say that the Hindu Kings went along with
the program ......whoever the Real Masters were - as long as their own interests were OK?

IF you agree with that - do you believe that the poor, oppressed and 'untouchables' would
have reached this far (Shankaracharya having been noted), IF not for the Colonial Powers?

I'd be interested to know

good wishes

jc

references:

1: what is the Devadasi System

http://www.ambedkar.org/buddhism/Devadasis_Were_Degraded_Buddhist_Nuns.htm

2: Mahatma Jotirao Phule

Impressed by Jotirao's intelligence and his love for knowledge, two of his neighbours, one a Muslim teacher and another a Christian gentleman persuaded his father Govindrao to allow him to study in a secondary school. In 1841, Jotirao got admission in the Scottish Mission's High School at Poona.
http://www.ambedkar.org/

3: The enslaved Paravas of the Fishery Coast

The coast around the Cabo was inhabited by the pearl-diver-folk known as the Paravas. They had suffered centuries of discrimination and oppression from the Hindu kings and the Muslim Arab sea lords. Eventually, they turned to the Portuguese for help and in the process and many converted to Christianity. The Paravas were then, attacked by the Arab Muslim fleet, curiously, with help of some Hindu princes.
http://www.colaco.net/1/sfx.htm

4: What Vasco da Gama would find in India if he were to return today:
What would India be like but for this Vasco da Gama voyage ?

It is really difficult to speculate what would have happened if ! but one can only try ... !

If not for Vasco da Gama it may have been ...... the sea battles and skirmishes off Calicut and Diu .....he decisive 1539 Battle of Vedalai.....
http://www.colaco.net/1/vdg3.htm

5: The Ranes of Goan Folklore

While elsewhere in the New Conquests the traditional village community set-up suffered some destruction under their Dessais, the village communities of Satari ceased to exist as a result of the recurring feuds among the Ranes themselves and their attempts to assert their own feudal control and relative independence. This is a very important historical background to be taken into consideration while critically assessing the so-called contribution of the Ranes to Goa's freedom struggle. Freedom, as we now tend to understand it, seems to have been the last thing the Ranes aspired to.
http://www.colaco.net/1/TRSfolkloreRaneRajput.htm

_________________________________________________________________
Enter the Windows Live Mail beta sweepstakes
http://www.imagine-msn.com/minisites/sweepstakes/mail/register.aspx
Ricardo Nunes
2006-05-25 04:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear Cornel,

I did not say ?all Goans would have been of Turkish/Muslim provenance?, if
we all know the meaning of provenance. I did say that if it were not for the
Portuguese, India would now be a Muslim nation, the biggest Muslim nation on
earth, inhabited by people of Indian provenance and Islamic religion, there
would be no India, just Pakistan all over the entire subcontinent (no
Hindutva pride to celebrate). I am sure you understood my point but it
serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers.

Best regards

Arjun
cornel
2006-05-25 09:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arjun
I have not seen your post nor have I commented on it. I had referred to an
earlier post by Rickardo. So please get off your high horse and rubbish
about "serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers."
But better still, please let me have sight of your original post. I may then
comment on it.
Cornel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo Nunes" <besugao at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 5:40 AM
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Cornel's contention with .... WE ARE ALL GOANS
Post by jose colaco
Dear Cornel,
I did not say ?all Goans would have been of Turkish/Muslim provenance?, if
we all know the meaning of provenance. I did say that if it were not for the
Portuguese, India would now be a Muslim nation, the biggest Muslim nation on
earth, inhabited by people of Indian provenance and Islamic religion, there
would be no India, just Pakistan all over the entire subcontinent (no
Hindutva pride to celebrate). I am sure you understood my point but it
serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers.
Best regards
Arjun
_____________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list.
Goanet mailing list (Goanet at goanet.org)
cornel
2006-05-25 09:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arjun
I have not seen your post nor have I commented on it. I had referred to an
earlier post by Rickardo. So please get off your high horse and rubbish
about "serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers."
But better still, please let me have sight of your original post. I may then
comment on it.
Cornel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo Nunes" <besugao at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 5:40 AM
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Cornel's contention with .... WE ARE ALL GOANS
Post by jose colaco
Dear Cornel,
I did not say ?all Goans would have been of Turkish/Muslim provenance?, if
we all know the meaning of provenance. I did say that if it were not for the
Portuguese, India would now be a Muslim nation, the biggest Muslim nation on
earth, inhabited by people of Indian provenance and Islamic religion, there
would be no India, just Pakistan all over the entire subcontinent (no
Hindutva pride to celebrate). I am sure you understood my point but it
serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers.
Best regards
Arjun
_____________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list.
Goanet mailing list (Goanet at goanet.org)
cornel
2006-05-25 09:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arjun
I have not seen your post nor have I commented on it. I had referred to an
earlier post by Rickardo. So please get off your high horse and rubbish
about "serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers."
But better still, please let me have sight of your original post. I may then
comment on it.
Cornel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo Nunes" <besugao at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 5:40 AM
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Cornel's contention with .... WE ARE ALL GOANS
Post by jose colaco
Dear Cornel,
I did not say ?all Goans would have been of Turkish/Muslim provenance?, if
we all know the meaning of provenance. I did say that if it were not for the
Portuguese, India would now be a Muslim nation, the biggest Muslim nation on
earth, inhabited by people of Indian provenance and Islamic religion, there
would be no India, just Pakistan all over the entire subcontinent (no
Hindutva pride to celebrate). I am sure you understood my point but it
serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers.
Best regards
Arjun
_____________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list.
Goanet mailing list (Goanet at goanet.org)
cornel
2006-05-25 09:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arjun
I have not seen your post nor have I commented on it. I had referred to an
earlier post by Rickardo. So please get off your high horse and rubbish
about "serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers."
But better still, please let me have sight of your original post. I may then
comment on it.
Cornel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo Nunes" <besugao at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 5:40 AM
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Cornel's contention with .... WE ARE ALL GOANS
Post by jose colaco
Dear Cornel,
I did not say ?all Goans would have been of Turkish/Muslim provenance?, if
we all know the meaning of provenance. I did say that if it were not for the
Portuguese, India would now be a Muslim nation, the biggest Muslim nation on
earth, inhabited by people of Indian provenance and Islamic religion, there
would be no India, just Pakistan all over the entire subcontinent (no
Hindutva pride to celebrate). I am sure you understood my point but it
serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers.
Best regards
Arjun
_____________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list.
Goanet mailing list (Goanet at goanet.org)
cornel
2006-05-25 09:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arjun
I have not seen your post nor have I commented on it. I had referred to an
earlier post by Rickardo. So please get off your high horse and rubbish
about "serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers."
But better still, please let me have sight of your original post. I may then
comment on it.
Cornel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo Nunes" <besugao at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 5:40 AM
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Cornel's contention with .... WE ARE ALL GOANS
Post by jose colaco
Dear Cornel,
I did not say ?all Goans would have been of Turkish/Muslim provenance?, if
we all know the meaning of provenance. I did say that if it were not for the
Portuguese, India would now be a Muslim nation, the biggest Muslim nation on
earth, inhabited by people of Indian provenance and Islamic religion, there
would be no India, just Pakistan all over the entire subcontinent (no
Hindutva pride to celebrate). I am sure you understood my point but it
serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers.
Best regards
Arjun
_____________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list.
Goanet mailing list (Goanet at goanet.org)
cornel
2006-05-25 09:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arjun
I have not seen your post nor have I commented on it. I had referred to an
earlier post by Rickardo. So please get off your high horse and rubbish
about "serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers."
But better still, please let me have sight of your original post. I may then
comment on it.
Cornel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo Nunes" <besugao at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 5:40 AM
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Cornel's contention with .... WE ARE ALL GOANS
Post by jose colaco
Dear Cornel,
I did not say ?all Goans would have been of Turkish/Muslim provenance?, if
we all know the meaning of provenance. I did say that if it were not for the
Portuguese, India would now be a Muslim nation, the biggest Muslim nation on
earth, inhabited by people of Indian provenance and Islamic religion, there
would be no India, just Pakistan all over the entire subcontinent (no
Hindutva pride to celebrate). I am sure you understood my point but it
serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers.
Best regards
Arjun
_____________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list.
Goanet mailing list (Goanet at goanet.org)
cornel
2006-05-25 09:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arjun
I have not seen your post nor have I commented on it. I had referred to an
earlier post by Rickardo. So please get off your high horse and rubbish
about "serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers."
But better still, please let me have sight of your original post. I may then
comment on it.
Cornel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricardo Nunes" <besugao at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 5:40 AM
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Cornel's contention with .... WE ARE ALL GOANS
Post by jose colaco
Dear Cornel,
I did not say ?all Goans would have been of Turkish/Muslim provenance?, if
we all know the meaning of provenance. I did say that if it were not for the
Portuguese, India would now be a Muslim nation, the biggest Muslim nation on
earth, inhabited by people of Indian provenance and Islamic religion, there
would be no India, just Pakistan all over the entire subcontinent (no
Hindutva pride to celebrate). I am sure you understood my point but it
serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers.
Best regards
Arjun
_____________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list.
Goanet mailing list (Goanet at goanet.org)
Mario Goveia
2006-05-25 22:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by cornel
Hi Arjun
I have not seen your post nor have I commented on
it. I had referred to an
earlier post by Rickardo. So please get off your
high horse and rubbish
about "serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead
your fellow readers."
But better still, please let me have sight of your
original post. I may then
comment on it.
Mario adds:
Arjun,
I'm not sure why Cornel cannot see your original post,
without a single smiley face, in the Goanet archives.
However, as a political adversary of his, I must
defend him against the charge of "racial hatred".
However misguided he may be about his opposition to
the liberation of Iraq which conflicts with his pious
claim of being a "humanitarian", he cannot be accused
of "racial hatred" in my never humble opinion.
I think his hatred, if he has any, is restricted to
political conservatives and capitalists:-))
jose colaco
2006-05-24 13:02:54 UTC
Permalink
From: cornel at btinternet.com


Mario
I have very mildly clashed with Ricardo previously on Goanet. If my memory
serves me well, it was over his contention that, but for the Portuguese, all
Goans would have been of Turkisk/Muslim provenance.

Historically, this could well have been an alternative reality of course, but it was
his implication that, the Goans ought to be grateful for Portuguese colonisation,
because it was a better alternative, that I had found contentious.

As for his next contention below, that, "all Portuguese came from Goa" (with
or without a smiley), I prefer not to waste my time on obvious drivel.

===


Dear Cornel,

I am in the process of reviewing your Vortex article wrt the Portuguese in Goa, as
also the critique which it attracted. We intend to have it on the website as soon as
we have cleared up up a few 'grey' areas ...but for now .... this is is response to
the above from you.

You are a well read man. Pray tell us what you believe would have been the more
likely scenario IF not for the Portuguese arrival in Calicut, and more specifically
the Battle of Diu.

Did Pakistan and (now) Bangladesh become Islamic States by choice?

What about Indonesia ?

Now... please do take the time and explain the contention you have with Ricardo.

Are you saying that the Portuguese arrival and eventual colonization was NOT a
better alternative than the Turkish/Moghal control of Goa?
From your reading of History, would you NOT say that the Hindu Kings went along with
the program ......whoever the Real Masters were - as long as their own interests were OK?

IF you agree with that - do you believe that the poor, oppressed and 'untouchables' would
have reached this far (Shankaracharya having been noted), IF not for the Colonial Powers?

I'd be interested to know

good wishes

jc

references:

1: what is the Devadasi System

http://www.ambedkar.org/buddhism/Devadasis_Were_Degraded_Buddhist_Nuns.htm

2: Mahatma Jotirao Phule

Impressed by Jotirao's intelligence and his love for knowledge, two of his neighbours, one a Muslim teacher and another a Christian gentleman persuaded his father Govindrao to allow him to study in a secondary school. In 1841, Jotirao got admission in the Scottish Mission's High School at Poona.
http://www.ambedkar.org/

3: The enslaved Paravas of the Fishery Coast

The coast around the Cabo was inhabited by the pearl-diver-folk known as the Paravas. They had suffered centuries of discrimination and oppression from the Hindu kings and the Muslim Arab sea lords. Eventually, they turned to the Portuguese for help and in the process and many converted to Christianity. The Paravas were then, attacked by the Arab Muslim fleet, curiously, with help of some Hindu princes.
http://www.colaco.net/1/sfx.htm

4: What Vasco da Gama would find in India if he were to return today:
What would India be like but for this Vasco da Gama voyage ?

It is really difficult to speculate what would have happened if ! but one can only try ... !

If not for Vasco da Gama it may have been ...... the sea battles and skirmishes off Calicut and Diu .....he decisive 1539 Battle of Vedalai.....
http://www.colaco.net/1/vdg3.htm

5: The Ranes of Goan Folklore

While elsewhere in the New Conquests the traditional village community set-up suffered some destruction under their Dessais, the village communities of Satari ceased to exist as a result of the recurring feuds among the Ranes themselves and their attempts to assert their own feudal control and relative independence. This is a very important historical background to be taken into consideration while critically assessing the so-called contribution of the Ranes to Goa's freedom struggle. Freedom, as we now tend to understand it, seems to have been the last thing the Ranes aspired to.
http://www.colaco.net/1/TRSfolkloreRaneRajput.htm

_________________________________________________________________
Enter the Windows Live Mail beta sweepstakes
http://www.imagine-msn.com/minisites/sweepstakes/mail/register.aspx
Ricardo Nunes
2006-05-25 04:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear Cornel,

I did not say ?all Goans would have been of Turkish/Muslim provenance?, if
we all know the meaning of provenance. I did say that if it were not for the
Portuguese, India would now be a Muslim nation, the biggest Muslim nation on
earth, inhabited by people of Indian provenance and Islamic religion, there
would be no India, just Pakistan all over the entire subcontinent (no
Hindutva pride to celebrate). I am sure you understood my point but it
serves your racial hatred purpose to mislead your fellow readers.

Best regards

Arjun