Discussion:
NEWS: Sons-of-the-soil sentiment taking root in Goa again
(too old to reply)
pameladmello
2003-03-11 16:37:29 UTC
Permalink
SONS-OF-THE-SOIL SENTIMENT TAKING ROOT IN GOA AGAIN

From Pamela D'Mello

Panaji: A new form of Shiv Sena type sons-of-the-soil regionalism
is growing in this west coast state, with emotive arguments pressing for a
Goans First employment policy and a moratorium on sale of scarce land to
"outsiders".

The Goa Hit Rakhan Manch (Protect Goan Interest Forum), a relatively new
political outfit here, is fuelling populist sentiment and has threatened
violence against government officials and companies that don't give first
priority to Goans in employment.

Recently, the Manch's first mid-sized rally demanded that Goans be
favoured for the estimated 15,000 government jobs falling vacant in the next
few years.

"Every industry that uses Goan land, water and power to set up here, must
issue a statement showing that 80 % of its employment is Goan", said
convenor Prashant Naik.

Over the past years, the Manch has scrutinised job advertisements that
disfavour local employment, targetting especially the Goa University, where
it alleges corruption ensures the sizeable recruitment of outstation
staff.

Arguing that "only Konkani can prove you are a Goan" for employment
purposes, it wants stringent use of Konkani in government and the
corollary insistence of its knowledge for employment, along with a fifteen
year domicile.

But Goa's bitter Marathi v/s Konkani language row in the eighties, and an
early 1960s referendum against merger with Mahrasthra makes this form of
regionalism contentious.

The current debate was fuelled lately after Marathi protagonists here
apparently lost a court battle to make Marathi knowledge equally essential
for jobs in Goa.

While Konkani was deemed essential, Marathi knowledge was only desirable,
the court said --- a ruling that did not go down well with that camp.

A war of words between rival protagonists and jostling for government
patronage has kept the row alive here. A recent Marathi literary
conference dubbing Konkani as a mere dialect was seen as an insult
triggering a fresh round of acrimony.

Goa's BJP government, attempting to placate both camps, has however angered
Konkani supporters, led seen as dominated by upper caste groupings.

In now attempting to forge a regional exclusivist policy, the Manch claims
it wants to bridge the language and religious chasm in the state.It denied
charges of being a Konkani exclusivist forum.

Certainly concern has been mounting here in some quarters over the large
influx of migrants from Karnataka, informal service sector workers from
Orissa and Bihar, traders from Kashmir and Gujarat, and property holders and
speculators from all over. (ends)
Bernado Colaco
2003-03-12 07:17:44 UTC
Permalink
For many 41 years Goans have been dotted as fools,
susegados and whatever! Goans were told that they
never had capacity to rule. While the treachrous and
divisionary MGP brought in outside experts to make
policies in Goa.

Did things improve in Goa with the indian
neocolonialism or were Goans eating grass under
Portuguese colonialism?

It is time for the indians to stop the plunder and
rape of Goa!

--- pameladmello at softhome.net wrote: >
****************************************
For more information/links, see
http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
SONS-OF-THE-SOIL SENTIMENT TAKING ROOT IN GOA AGAIN
From Pamela D'Mello
Panaji: A new form of Shiv Sena type
sons-of-the-soil regionalism
is growing in this west coast state, with emotive
arguments pressing for a
Goans First employment policy and a moratorium on
sale of scarce land to
"outsiders".
The Goa Hit Rakhan Manch (Protect Goan Interest
Forum), a relatively new
political outfit here, is fuelling populist
sentiment and has threatened
violence against government officials and companies
that don't give first
priority to Goans in employment.
Recently, the Manch's first mid-sized rally
demanded that Goans be
favoured for the estimated 15,000 government jobs
falling vacant in the next
few years.
"Every industry that uses Goan land, water and power
to set up here, must
issue a statement showing that 80 % of its
employment is Goan", said
convenor Prashant Naik.
Over the past years, the Manch has scrutinised job
advertisements that
disfavour local employment, targetting especially
the Goa University, where
it alleges corruption ensures the sizeable
recruitment of outstation
staff.
Arguing that "only Konkani can prove you are a Goan"
for employment
purposes, it wants stringent use of Konkani in
government and the
corollary insistence of its knowledge for
employment, along with a fifteen
year domicile.
But Goa's bitter Marathi v/s Konkani language row in
the eighties, and an
early 1960s referendum against merger with
Mahrasthra makes this form of
regionalism contentious.
The current debate was fuelled lately after Marathi
protagonists here
apparently lost a court battle to make Marathi
knowledge equally essential
for jobs in Goa.
While Konkani was deemed essential, Marathi
knowledge was only desirable,
the court said --- a ruling that did not go down
well with that camp.
A war of words between rival protagonists and
jostling for government
patronage has kept the row alive here. A recent
Marathi literary
conference dubbing Konkani as a mere dialect was
seen as an insult
triggering a fresh round of acrimony.
Goa's BJP government, attempting to placate both
camps, has however angered
Konkani supporters, led seen as dominated by upper
caste groupings.
In now attempting to forge a regional exclusivist
policy, the Manch claims
it wants to bridge the language and religious chasm
in the state.It denied
charges of being a Konkani exclusivist forum.
Certainly concern has been mounting here in some
quarters over the large
influx of migrants from Karnataka, informal service
sector workers from
Orissa and Bihar, traders from Kashmir and Gujarat,
and property holders and
speculators from all over. (ends)
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Chimbelcho
2003-03-13 03:40:43 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 3/12/03 8:02:15 PM Central Standard Time,
Post by Bernado Colaco
It is time for the indians to stop the plunder and
rape of Goa!
Do you want the foreigners to plunder and rape Goa instead?

Cheers,

Santosh
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Helga do Rosario Gomes
2003-03-13 12:45:01 UTC
Permalink
I wish I had thought of saying that Santosh!
---Helga
----- Original Message -----
From: Chimbelcho at aol.com
To: goanet at goanet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] NEWS: Sons-of-the-soil sentiment taking root in Goa again


In a message dated 3/12/03 8:02:15 PM Central Standard Time, ole_xac at yahoo.co.uk writes:


It is time for the indians to stop the plunder and
rape of Goa!


Do you want the foreigners to plunder and rape Goa instead?

Cheers,

Santosh
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Bernado Colaco
2003-03-14 07:13:26 UTC
Permalink
Do you mean the indian foreigners?

Cheers

Colaco



--- Chimbelcho at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated
3/12/03 8:02:15 PM Central
Post by Chimbelcho
Standard Time,
Post by Bernado Colaco
It is time for the indians to stop the plunder and
rape of Goa!
Do you want the foreigners to plunder and rape Goa
instead?
Cheers,
Santosh
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Chimbelcho
2003-03-14 07:21:56 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 3/13/03 4:15:50 PM Central Standard Time, helga at gwi.net
Post by Helga do Rosario Gomes
I wish I had thought of saying that Santosh!
---Helga
Thanks Helga. But you are only an Indian. I am still waiting for a response
from the foreigners.

Cheers,

Santosh

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Bernado Colaco
2003-03-14 07:25:51 UTC
Permalink
Folks,

Here is a part of an article by the eminent scholar of
Goa University Dr. N. Kamat.

Kind regards

Colaco



'Despite the above facts, Goa has done reasonably well
in checking the population growth and for this
achievement the Central planning commission's
Gadgil-Mukherjee formula would reward us "handsomely"
by slashing the grants, because we are a developed
state. Please take note: The central government
collects not less than 3000 crores from Goa (direct &
indirect taxes, customs, excise, income tax etc.),
another 2400 crores are contributed to foreign
exchange kitty by tourism sector, 1000 crores foreign
exchange from the mining sector. But the annual plan
grants are still fixed at 200-300
crores-because-development means less grants from the
central government.
Most of the foreign loans, grants, schemes, aid is
diverted to Punjab, Haryana, Tamilnadu, Andhra
Pradesh. The last project funded by the World bank in
Goa was the Rs. 23 crores aid for improving the
technical education. Interms of external
aid/loans/grants goa comes poorest in India and that
is the reason the state government is borrowing from
domestic market at high rates.
A Rs. 200 crores infrastructure development project
for the tourism belt is still pending with the
Japanese government. The Japanese steel industry
heavily benefitted from on the Iron ore of Goa since
1950s (about Rs. 30,000 crores worth exports) but the
Japanese have not shown any interest in helping Goa to
restore the degraded mining belt. Neither the local
politicians have the lobbying power, vision or
negotiationg skills.'









--- Helga do Rosario Gomes <helga at gwi.net> wrote: > I
wish I had thought of saying that Santosh!
Post by Helga do Rosario Gomes
---Helga
----- Original Message -----
From: Chimbelcho at aol.com
To: goanet at goanet.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] NEWS: Sons-of-the-soil
sentiment taking root in Goa again
In a message dated 3/12/03 8:02:15 PM Central
It is time for the indians to stop the plunder
and
rape of Goa!
Do you want the foreigners to plunder and rape Goa
instead?
Cheers,
Santosh
__________________________________________________
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Chimbelcho
2003-03-15 06:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernado Colaco
Do you mean the indian foreigners?
Cheers
Colaco
Hello Mr. Colaco:

Let me ask you and others who sympathize with your view three simple questions. Are you ashamed that you are ethnically an Indian? Do you wish your ancestors were not born on the Indian subcontinent? Would you rather shed your skin?

I would really appreciate your honest answers.

Cheers,

Santosh
Frederick Noronha (FN)
2003-03-15 09:33:09 UTC
Permalink
THE WORD 'Indian' means different things to different people. For some it
is a civilization thousands of years old, for others its a nation-state,
in the view of the RSS someone can be a good Indian only if s/he
accepts India as a divine or holy land ('punyabhu'), some and still
others an entity that was evolved (due to accidents of British colonial
history) only in 1947.

Perhaps it's futile to get caught up in rigid or inflexible positions over
how we conceive this. There are other interpretations. In addition, the
world out there, as someone said, is 20 per cent reality and 80 per cent
perception of that reality!

Goans have grown up in diverse continents, learnt differening senses of
history and have very complex (and not necessarily accurate)
understandings of their past.

But this matter is more complicated... for other reasons.

Indians (and South Asians) have been seen in different ways at different
points of time. My parent's generation has encountered
Apartheid in South Africa (no amount of the Goa-is-not-India argument
would have helped, even had it been tried). As for myself, my strange name
mixed with Arab looks and a beard got me almost offloaded a plane in
Scandinavia (long before 9/11). But one has also seen the manner in which
Indian ingenuity is looked upto in places like Malaysia. Goans in Silicon
Valley (Marlon?) would perhaps have more to comment on this. I've also
encountered Pakistanis friends who's first comment is "You'll Indians are
very smart..." Now, one reads in a post-colonial version of history that
before the British East India Company the world was a very, very
different place, and that it was the Company that "first reversed the
ancient flow of wealth from West to East".

"For at least two millenia, from Roman times, Europe had
always been Asia's commercial supplicant, shipping
out gold and silver in return for spices, textiles and
luxury goods. And for the first 150 years after its
establishment by Queen Elizabeth I in 1600, the Company
had to repeat this practice, as there was simply nothing
that England could export that the East wanted to buy..."
--Nick Robins 'Loot: In search of the East India Company,
the world's first transnational corporation' (Environment
& Urbanization Vol 14 No 1 April 2002, IIED London)

How we identify 'ourself' and the 'other' would, in large measure, depend
on our understanding of history.

Nonetheless, to avoid getting caught up in value-loaded (for the above
reason) arguments, perhaps it might be nice to ask Goans to consider a
re-phrasing of Dr Santosh's question: "Are you comfortable with an ethnic
identity that is South Asian? Do you wish your ancestors were born in some
other part of the globe? Would you have been more comfortable with some
other ethnic identity?"

Perhaps going deeper into these issues might help us understand....
ourselves. --FN
Post by Chimbelcho
Let me ask you and others who sympathize with your view three simple
questions. Are you ashamed that you are ethnically an Indian? Do you
wish your ancestors were not born on the Indian subcontinent? Would you
rather shed your skin?
I would really appreciate your honest answers.
Cheers,
Santosh
Chimbelcho
2003-03-15 14:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frederick Noronha (FN)
THE WORD 'Indian' means different things to different people. For some it
is a civilization thousands of years old, for others its a nation-state,
in the view of the RSS someone can be a good Indian only if s/he
accepts India as a divine or holy land ('punyabhu'), some and still
others an entity that was evolved (due to accidents of British colonial
history) only in 1947.
Frederick,

You are too kind. You let us foreigners get away too easily. Being the westerner that I am, the only India I know is the one that Genoese merchants wanted to trade with, and Christobal Colon and Vasco da Gama wanted to find a way to.

Cheers,

Santosh
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-03-15 16:41:24 UTC
Permalink
Just some more statistics which were not previously provided by Gabe and
Lily. As we are talking of national and international GDP!

In Goa as per the publish statistics: The Per Capita Income is Rs
23,396. The poverty rate is described as 14.92 % (Urban 27.03 % and
Rural 5.34 %).

Does it not make you cry? Or depending on your perspective there is a
golden opportunity for the world's and Goa's do-gooders to do something
about. Regards, GL
Eddie Fernandes
2003-03-15 19:03:50 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilbert Lawrence" <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 4:41 PM
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
In Goa as per the publish statistics: The Per Capita Income is Rs
23,396.
===================================
Business Standard, Sat., 15 Mar. 2003.


Regional income disparities up. Variation in per capita income among states
rose from 121 per cent in 1965-66 to 783 per cent in 2000-01. Excerpt:



Goa, which had consistently occupied the second position in the initial Plan
years, moved up to the top spot by the end of the Eighth Plan Period. By
[2000-1], it's per capita income was Rs 45,105 - 80 per cent more than
Punjab's.



Full text at:

http://www.business-standard.com/today/story.asp?story=10195
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-03-16 07:12:37 UTC
Permalink
I stand corrected! My figures from the Government of Goa may be
outdated.
I feel better that the per capita income of a resident of Goa is 'Rs
45,105' as per the Business Standard. That help all of us cry less and
sleep better that the average Goan earns US $900 dollars. Is that per
year, per month or per week? Regards GL.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilbert Lawrence" <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 4:41 PM
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
In Goa as per the publish statistics: The Per Capita Income is Rs
23,396.
===================================
Business Standard, Sat., 15 Mar. 2003.


Regional income disparities up. Variation in per capita income among
states
rose from 121 per cent in 1965-66 to 783 per cent in 2000-01. Excerpt:



Goa, which had consistently occupied the second position in the initial
Plan
years, moved up to the top spot by the end of the Eighth Plan Period. By
[2000-1], it's per capita income was Rs 45,105 - 80 per cent more than
Punjab's.

Full text at:
http://www.business-standard.com/today/story.asp?story=10195
Bernado Colaco
2003-03-17 06:25:13 UTC
Permalink
In a few words: I am a Goan and proud too, I am proud
to be born in Goa. If not for the indian invasion we
Goans would had a better future. Mr. Helekar can you
not see that once our pristine towns are rotting
carcasses under indian rule? Look what the indians
have done to Bombaim and Calcutta!

Regards

Colaco
In a message dated 3/14/2003 2:13:26 AM Eastern
Post by Bernado Colaco
Do you mean the indian foreigners?
Cheers
Colaco
Let me ask you and others who sympathize with your
view three simple questions. Are you ashamed that
you are ethnically an Indian? Do you wish your
ancestors were not born on the Indian subcontinent?
Would you rather shed your skin?
I would really appreciate your honest answers.
Cheers,
Santosh
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
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Sunila Muzawar
2003-03-17 09:13:42 UTC
Permalink
From: Bernado Colaco <ole_xac at yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] I am a Goan!
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 06:25:13 +0000 (GMT)
In a few words: I am a Goan and proud too, I am proud
to be born in Goa. If not for the indian invasion we
Goans would had a better future.
Sure for 400 plus years we went from strength to strength under the
Portuguese and I am sure that is where you base your deductions. ;-)
Mr. Helekar can you
not see that once our pristine towns are rotting
carcasses under indian rule? Look what the indians
have done to Bombaim and Calcutta!
Bombaim ? I say Bombaim ? Did you really say Bombaim ? Maybe someone should
put you on a plane to Portugal then....because it's only there that you can
get away with saying Bombaim !!!....probably not even Portugal will be so
ancient ! And yes, our towns are rotting under Indian rule. After all, we
have now achieved 95% literacy, the standard of living of the people has
really increased. Basic Sanitation has now reached almost all parts of the
towns, medical facilities have improved (although not ideal yet), the market
place is thriving, communication facilities have bettered (almost everyone
has a phone), people have a lot of money and enjoy their life, almost every
house has electricity and access to water, every kid is into computers and
stuff like that, there are more internet cafes than fancy Dubai, Goans can
decide whom to elect and democracy is thriving and the people are free. What
a way to rot !! tsk tsk !


And before you call yourself a proud Goan think. All the above was done by
Goans but you seem to be prouder of what was done....rather not done by the
Portuguese.
Jai Hind !
Sunila

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Tim de Mello
2003-03-17 18:55:58 UTC
Permalink
I am tired (and disappointed) reading e-mails from Goans that put down India
and Goa and extoll the virtues of Europe, America, Australia/NZ, etc.

We must remember that we are in these countries at the sufferance of the
indigineous populations - particularly in the ones governed by the
Anglo-Saxons (A-S). Let us not lose sight of the fact that if suitable A-S's
could be found we would not be allowed to set foot in these countries. These
countries (and South Africa, until recently) were developed for THEIR people
- not for us! History books have recorded these facts - "White Australia",
"Apartheid" (which incidentally was based on the Canadian system of
separating the Whites from the native populations, etc. Also, look at the
history of the Sikhs looking to settle in Vancouver (Komagata Maru in 1914),
the way the Chinese & Japanese people were dealt with in the 1940s in the US
and Canada, and recently the plight of Berna Cruz at the hands of US
officials. Berna Cruz was one case that received a lot of publicity, but I
have heard of many such cases which go unreported. Think about this the next
time you try and visit one of these A-S countries.

Many Goans who keep casting aspersions on India and Goa, I am sure, just
managed to qualify for entry into these A-S countries by the skin of their
teeth and now prance around as something superior to those in India. In
fairness, there are also many Indians (i.e. not from Goa) who do the same.

They must remember one thing. YOU ARE AFFORDED RESPECT (OR DIS-RESPECT) (and
suffer or enjoy your position in this society) BECAUSE OF THE STANDING OF
INDIA IN THE WORLD TODAY. e.g. If you are considered clever in IT it is
because of the standing of India in the world today - and a prospective
employer is likely to give you preference over some other non-Indian
immigrant. You are seen and viewed by the mainstream majority as Indian not
as Goan - however much you try and argue your pathetic cases here on
Goa-Net.

India has many problems and they are they there for all to see. e.g. Just go
to Agra to view the Taj Mahal and you will pass through some of the
filthiest places on earth. But just as well, India has made giant strides in
almost every field of human endeavour.

Yes, they are there - if you choose to see.


Tim de Mello
timdemello at hotmail.com
Ontario, CANADA




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Carlos6143
2003-03-18 00:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Bernado,
I know you are a Goan, but what is your ethnicity? Are one of your parents or
grand parents INDIAN? EUROPEAN? CHINESE? or AFRICAN? I have a Goan friend
here whose ethnicity is 25% Indian, 25% Portuguese, and 50% French. His
Grandma was of Portuguese descent and Grandpa an Indian (born in Goa).
Regards,
Carlos Rodrigues




In a message dated 3/17/03 12:43:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
goanet-request at goanet.org writes:

<<
From: Bernado Colaco <ole_xac at yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] I am a Goan!
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 06:25:13 +0000 (GMT)
In a few words: I am a Goan and proud too, I am proud
to be born in Goa. If not for the indian invasion we
Goans would had a better future.
Rui Collaco
2003-03-18 01:02:13 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Mello, you are tired and disappointed because truth hurts sometimes!
Some Indian Goans are so full of nationalistic pride that they can't
tolerate any kind of criticism. They have been told since their kindergarten
days that India is the best place under the sun and they believed it. They
hate being reminded that that is not so. Speaking for myself, I have not
been putting down Goa or India. I have dwelt on facts, like my 1998 trip to
Goa. I did not like what I saw. Am I supposed to say that I loved it, just
to please you and other like-minded Indians? And what about that favourite
pastime of some goanetters which is Portugal-bashing, do you ever get tired
of it?
I agree with almost everything else you said. Those are facts of history and
you are right in reminding us of them. However people should be aware that
that was the reality of the anglo-saxon world. In Portugal and its colonies
it was a vastly different story. Goans have played a major role in
portuguese society for a long, long time. There have been a number of Goan
judges, university professors, medical doctors, high Govt. officials,
ambassadors (there are probably more Goans as ambassadors of Portugal than
as ambassadors of India),etc.from the 19th century onwards, working all
across the then portuguese empire.The colonisation of Mozambique was done by
Europeans and Goans, side by side.Today there are thousands of goans (or
rather, citizens of goan origin, like myself) in the Govt. departments,
universities, the judiciary, hospitals, foreign service, etc., in the most
qualified positions. They get there based on merit, because there is no
discrimination against them. I was born in 1963 in Mozambique, under
portuguese colonial rule. I have always been a fully fledged portuguese
national. Never ever did I feel discriminated by the whites or the
authorities. And we do not owe this to "India's standing in the world". We
were integrated and respected long before India even existed as an
independent country. Portugal knows Goa and Goans and respects them on their
own merits. People tend to forget or ignore that the Portuguese experience
is very different from the anglo-saxon one.

Rui Colla?o

Lisbon
From: "Tim de Mello" <timdemello at hotmail.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet] I am a Goan!
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:55:58 +0000
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
I am tired (and disappointed) reading e-mails from Goans that put down
India and Goa and extoll the virtues of Europe, America, Australia/NZ, etc.
We must remember that we are in these countries at the sufferance of the
indigineous populations - particularly in the ones governed by the
Anglo-Saxons (A-S). Let us not lose sight of the fact that if suitable
A-S's could be found we would not be allowed to set foot in these
countries. These countries (and South Africa, until recently) were
developed for THEIR people - not for us! History books have recorded these
facts - "White Australia", "Apartheid" (which incidentally was based on the
Canadian system of separating the Whites from the native populations, etc.
Also, look at the history of the Sikhs looking to settle in Vancouver
(Komagata Maru in 1914), the way the Chinese & Japanese people were dealt
with in the 1940s in the US and Canada, and recently the plight of Berna
Cruz at the hands of US officials. Berna Cruz was one case that received a
lot of publicity, but I have heard of many such cases which go unreported.
Think about this the next time you try and visit one of these A-S
countries.
Many Goans who keep casting aspersions on India and Goa, I am sure, just
managed to qualify for entry into these A-S countries by the skin of their
teeth and now prance around as something superior to those in India. In
fairness, there are also many Indians (i.e. not from Goa) who do the same.
They must remember one thing. YOU ARE AFFORDED RESPECT (OR DIS-RESPECT)
(and suffer or enjoy your position in this society) BECAUSE OF THE STANDING
OF INDIA IN THE WORLD TODAY. e.g. If you are considered clever in IT it is
because of the standing of India in the world today - and a prospective
employer is likely to give you preference over some other non-Indian
immigrant. You are seen and viewed by the mainstream majority as Indian not
as Goan - however much you try and argue your pathetic cases here on
Goa-Net.
India has many problems and they are they there for all to see. e.g. Just
go to Agra to view the Taj Mahal and you will pass through some of the
filthiest places on earth. But just as well, India has made giant strides
in almost every field of human endeavour.
Yes, they are there - if you choose to see.
Tim de Mello
timdemello at hotmail.com
Ontario, CANADA
_________________________________________________________________
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Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
2003-03-18 11:22:35 UTC
Permalink
It is true, of all the European Colonisers the Portuguese were unique in
that you would find some
Portuguese amongst the poor of the country they resided in. Also you would
find some locals in the
upper echelons of administration. No other European country can claim to
this uniqueness.

One is entitled to one's opinion, so let us learn to live and let live.

Cest la vie.

cheers Gabe Menezes

I agree with almost everything else you said. Those are facts of history and
you are right in reminding us of them. However people should be aware that
that was the reality of the anglo-saxon world. In Portugal and its colonies
it was a vastly different story. Goans have played a major role in
portuguese society for a long, long time. There have been a number of Goan
judges, university professors, medical doctors, high Govt. officials,
ambassadors (there are probably more Goans as ambassadors of Portugal than
as ambassadors of India),etc.from the 19th century onwards, working all
across the then portuguese empire.The colonisation of Mozambique was done by
Europeans and Goans, side by side.Today there are thousands of goans (or
rather, citizens of goan origin, like myself) in the Govt. departments,
universities, the judiciary, hospitals, foreign service, etc., in the most
qualified positions. They get there based on merit, because there is no
discrimination against them. I was born in 1963 in Mozambique, under
portuguese colonial rule. I have always been a fully fledged portuguese
national. Never ever did I feel discriminated by the whites or the
authorities. And we do not owe this to "India's standing in the world". We
were integrated and respected long before India even existed as an
independent country. Portugal knows Goa and Goans and respects them on their
own merits. People tend to forget or ignore that the Portuguese experience
is very different from the anglo-saxon one.

Rui Colla?o

Lisbon
From: "Tim de Mello" <timdemello at hotmail.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet] I am a Goan!
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:55:58 +0000
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
I am tired (and disappointed) reading e-mails from Goans that put down
India and Goa and extoll the virtues of Europe, America, Australia/NZ, etc.
We must remember that we are in these countries at the sufferance of the
indigineous populations - particularly in the ones governed by the
Anglo-Saxons (A-S). Let us not lose sight of the fact that if suitable
A-S's could be found we would not be allowed to set foot in these
countries. These countries (and South Africa, until recently) were
developed for THEIR people - not for us! History books have recorded these
facts - "White Australia", "Apartheid" (which incidentally was based on the
Canadian system of separating the Whites from the native populations, etc.
Also, look at the history of the Sikhs looking to settle in Vancouver
(Komagata Maru in 1914), the way the Chinese & Japanese people were dealt
with in the 1940s in the US and Canada, and recently the plight of Berna
Cruz at the hands of US officials. Berna Cruz was one case that received a
lot of publicity, but I have heard of many such cases which go unreported.
Think about this the next time you try and visit one of these A-S
countries.
Many Goans who keep casting aspersions on India and Goa, I am sure, just
managed to qualify for entry into these A-S countries by the skin of their
teeth and now prance around as something superior to those in India. In
fairness, there are also many Indians (i.e. not from Goa) who do the same.
They must remember one thing. YOU ARE AFFORDED RESPECT (OR DIS-RESPECT)
(and suffer or enjoy your position in this society) BECAUSE OF THE STANDING
OF INDIA IN THE WORLD TODAY. e.g. If you are considered clever in IT it is
because of the standing of India in the world today - and a prospective
employer is likely to give you preference over some other non-Indian
immigrant. You are seen and viewed by the mainstream majority as Indian not
as Goan - however much you try and argue your pathetic cases here on
Goa-Net.
India has many problems and they are they there for all to see. e.g. Just
go to Agra to view the Taj Mahal and you will pass through some of the
filthiest places on earth. But just as well, India has made giant strides
in almost every field of human endeavour.
Yes, they are there - if you choose to see.
Tim de Mello
timdemello at hotmail.com
Ontario, CANADA
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Bernado Colaco
2003-03-18 06:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Yes we have electricity that does not work!

Yes we have phones that do not work!

Yes we have roads full of potholes!

Yes we have malaria where thousands are infected and
die!

Yes we have 95% literacy where the so called literate
can not read write or listen!

Yes we have democracy where thugs, goons, smugglers
and thieves are elected!

What we have is a large bharati toilet in the making!



--- Sunila Muzawar <smuzawar at hotmail.com> wrote: >
****************************************
For more information/links, see
http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
From: Bernado Colaco <ole_xac at yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] I am a Goan!
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 06:25:13 +0000 (GMT)
In a few words: I am a Goan and proud too, I am
proud
to be born in Goa. If not for the indian invasion
we
Goans would had a better future.
Sure for 400 plus years we went from strength to
strength under the
Portuguese and I am sure that is where you base your
deductions. ;-)
Mr. Helekar can you
not see that once our pristine towns are rotting
carcasses under indian rule? Look what the indians
have done to Bombaim and Calcutta!
Bombaim ? I say Bombaim ? Did you really say Bombaim
? Maybe someone should
put you on a plane to Portugal then....because it's
only there that you can
get away with saying Bombaim !!!....probably not
even Portugal will be so
ancient ! And yes, our towns are rotting under
Indian rule. After all, we
have now achieved 95% literacy, the standard of
living of the people has
really increased. Basic Sanitation has now reached
almost all parts of the
towns, medical facilities have improved (although
not ideal yet), the market
place is thriving, communication facilities have
bettered (almost everyone
has a phone), people have a lot of money and enjoy
their life, almost every
house has electricity and access to water, every kid
is into computers and
stuff like that, there are more internet cafes than
fancy Dubai, Goans can
decide whom to elect and democracy is thriving and
the people are free. What
a way to rot !! tsk tsk !
And before you call yourself a proud Goan think. All
the above was done by
Goans but you seem to be prouder of what was
done....rather not done by the
Portuguese.
Jai Hind !
Sunila
_________________________________________________________________
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Frederick Noronha (FN)
2003-03-18 10:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernado Colaco
What we have is a large bharati toilet in the making!
Bernado, You have the freedom to say what you believe, but not to insult
people so losely via a public forum. Such provocative and simplistic
arguments are hardly going to convince anyone about the logic, if any,
behind your words. Meanwhile, let me appeal to the silent majority of
Goanet to send in their views so that the debate doesn't get drowned in
the extemism of a few. If you feel some arguments are going off the
top, say so. FN
--
Frederick Noronha : http://www.bytesforall.org : When we speak of free
Freelance Journalist : Goa India 403511 : software we refer to
Ph 0091.832.409490 : Cell 0 9822 122436 : freedom, not price.
Sunila Muzawar
2003-03-18 05:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Tim you are a wise man. ...wish there were more of you on this forum.
Jai Hind !
Sunila
From: "Tim de Mello" <timdemello at hotmail.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet] I am a Goan!
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:55:58 +0000
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
I am tired (and disappointed) reading e-mails from Goans that put down
India and Goa and extoll the virtues of Europe, America, Australia/NZ, etc.
We must remember that we are in these countries at the sufferance of the
indigineous populations - particularly in the ones governed by the
Anglo-Saxons (A-S). Let us not lose sight of the fact that if suitable
A-S's could be found we would not be allowed to set foot in these
countries. These countries (and South Africa, until recently) were
developed for THEIR people - not for us! History books have recorded these
facts - "White Australia", "Apartheid" (which incidentally was based on the
Canadian system of separating the Whites from the native populations, etc.
Also, look at the history of the Sikhs looking to settle in Vancouver
(Komagata Maru in 1914), the way the Chinese & Japanese people were dealt
with in the 1940s in the US and Canada, and recently the plight of Berna
Cruz at the hands of US officials. Berna Cruz was one case that received a
lot of publicity, but I have heard of many such cases which go unreported.
Think about this the next time you try and visit one of these A-S
countries.
Many Goans who keep casting aspersions on India and Goa, I am sure, just
managed to qualify for entry into these A-S countries by the skin of their
teeth and now prance around as something superior to those in India. In
fairness, there are also many Indians (i.e. not from Goa) who do the same.
They must remember one thing. YOU ARE AFFORDED RESPECT (OR DIS-RESPECT)
(and suffer or enjoy your position in this society) BECAUSE OF THE STANDING
OF INDIA IN THE WORLD TODAY. e.g. If you are considered clever in IT it is
because of the standing of India in the world today - and a prospective
employer is likely to give you preference over some other non-Indian
immigrant. You are seen and viewed by the mainstream majority as Indian not
as Goan - however much you try and argue your pathetic cases here on
Goa-Net.
India has many problems and they are they there for all to see. e.g. Just
go to Agra to view the Taj Mahal and you will pass through some of the
filthiest places on earth. But just as well, India has made giant strides
in almost every field of human endeavour.
Yes, they are there - if you choose to see.
Tim de Mello
timdemello at hotmail.com
Ontario, CANADA
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Nagesh Bhatcar
2003-03-18 13:55:05 UTC
Permalink
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
Mr. Mello, you are tired and disappointed because truth hurts sometimes!
Some Indian Goans are so full of nationalistic pride that they can't
tolerate any kind of criticism. They have been told since their
kindergarten days that India is the best place under the sun and they
believed it. They hate being reminded that that is not so. Speaking for
myself, I have not been putting down Goa or India. I have dwelt on facts,
like my 1998 trip to Goa. I did not like what I saw. Am I supposed to say
that I loved it, just to please you and other like-minded Indians? And what
about that favourite pastime of some goanetters which is Portugal-bashing,
do you ever get tired of it?
In response to what Mr. Rui Collaco has written, I was born when the
Portuguese were in Goa. I went to school in the Post-Portuguese era.
NEVER EVER, NOT EVEN ONCE, was I told by any of my teachers
that the Portuguese were bad and that 'India is the best place under
the sun'! I read all this crap about Goans being brainwashed about
India. That is a bunch of bull! Whoever floated this strange notion
about Goans being brainwashed!

If anybody does not like to see how Goa is now, please stay away from it.
Goans are not of either European or more specifically Portuguese blood.
There is no denying the fact that, Goans are more Indian than any other
race. It has become a habit with many overseas Goans to preach to
Goans residing in Goa, about how to go about their lives!

Nagesh Bhatcar
sgbhatcar at hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
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Gilbert Lawrence
2003-03-18 23:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Hi Fred,

Thanks for asking the silent majority to participate in the debate.
Can you tell us what the issue that is being debated is?
Let us make sure we know the terms and differences of:
Origin (place of birth), ethnicity, cultural heritage and nationality.
These all are different and yet the same person could have all of them.
Thus an individual could be born of Goan parents in Pakistan, have a UK
passport and live in the USA. The individual could likely be brilliant,
self confident, know the history and culture of four countries
(including Goa) and be proud of all four of them. You could also get one
born and lived in Goa (or any where else), and not know his own culture,
history, language, heritage and nationality.
Yes I think some arguments are going off the wall!!!

On a lighter note:
I would like to see some participants of this issue to meet "Santa Rosa
Fernandes, the fiery Moidecan from the Velim, Salcete, Goa aka the
heartland of Concanim." Now that is a true Goan who would amiably make
you a Goan overnight even if you are not (with a mix of Goan humor and
straight talk); and if you are a Goan she would also straighten you out
as she did to Ben Hatao, Joshi de Poona and Saysill Pin-toe. Now I am
sure some smart Goan (desi or firingi or phoregner) will want to correct
her graaaamer and her Concanim or Konknii or Konkani! Regards, GL



-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org [mailto:goanet-admin at goanet.org] On Behalf
Of Frederick Noronha (FN)
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 5:59 AM
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet] I am a Goan!

****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************


Meanwhile, let me appeal to the silent majority of
Goanet to send in their views so that the debate doesn't get drowned in
the extremism of a few. If you feel some arguments are going off the
top, say so. FN
--
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-03-19 22:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Hi Fred,
Thanks for asking the silent majority to participate in the debate.
Can you tell us what the issue that is being debated is?
The issue being debated is who can more eloquently state why the country
where they live is better than the countries where the rest of the
Goa-netters live.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Frederick Noronha (FN)
2003-03-20 08:07:18 UTC
Permalink
I'm getting confused. Is the issue as Tariq states it? Or is it also:

o Why the region I left is/would have/should have been the best in the
world?
o Why I'm glad I took the choice I did, and you should be sorry for
staying where you are?
o Why I'm-so-right, but you're-so-wrong
o Why I need to have the last word in this debate, regardless....

Okay, I out of here. The television war over Iraq should provide better
distractions to the real world problems we ordinary mortals have to
otherwise grapped with.

FN
Post by Bernado Colaco
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Hi Fred,
Thanks for asking the silent majority to participate in the debate.
Can you tell us what the issue that is being debated is?
The issue being debated is who can more eloquently state why the country
where they live is better than the countries where the rest of the
Goa-netters live.
--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
Sunila Muzawar
2003-03-19 04:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Remember, whatever we have done since liberation is of our own making. If
you don't like it, do something about it. The problem is at election time
instead of focussing on development we are more worried about caste and
religion. And the rest of the time we moan at the pace of development. Only
we can change things. No use moaning about Indians or the Portuguese.

Sunila

P.S. you are right about the bharati toilet. We did not even have decent
sanitation and public toilet facilities during Portuguese rule. It's only
after integrating with India that this has come about. So calling the
toilets bharati is no problem in my mind. After all we are all bharati and I
for one am proud to be one. However, if your intention was to be derogatory,
please imagine what Goa would have been without them.
From: Bernado Colaco <ole_xac at yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet] I am a Goan!
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 06:20:04 +0000 (GMT)
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
Yes we have electricity that does not work!
Yes we have phones that do not work!
Yes we have roads full of potholes!
Yes we have malaria where thousands are infected and
die!
Yes we have 95% literacy where the so called literate
can not read write or listen!
Yes we have democracy where thugs, goons, smugglers
and thieves are elected!
What we have is a large bharati toilet in the making!
--- Sunila Muzawar <smuzawar at hotmail.com> wrote: >
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Bernado Colaco
2003-03-19 07:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Shouldn't these journalists spend time on more
important indian issues like social injustices to 250
millions dalits who are treated like scums of the
earth?

Millions of indians dip themsevles in Fair and Lovely
they will be white wannabes. Because white is superior
then black. Would a black indian actor(with a few
exceptions) make it to Bollywood?


--- Lily & Gabe Menezes <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote: > ****************************************
For more information/links, see
http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
It is true, of all the European Colonisers the
Portuguese were unique in
that you would find some
Portuguese amongst the poor of the country they
resided in. Also you would
find some locals in the
upper echelons of administration. No other European
country can claim to
this uniqueness.
One is entitled to one's opinion, so let us learn to
live and let live.
Cest la vie.
cheers Gabe Menezes
I agree with almost everything else you said. Those
are facts of history and
you are right in reminding us of them. However
people should be aware that
that was the reality of the anglo-saxon world. In
Portugal and its colonies
it was a vastly different story. Goans have played a
major role in
portuguese society for a long, long time. There have
been a number of Goan
judges, university professors, medical doctors, high
Govt. officials,
ambassadors (there are probably more Goans as
ambassadors of Portugal than
as ambassadors of India),etc.from the 19th century
onwards, working all
across the then portuguese empire.The colonisation
of Mozambique was done by
Europeans and Goans, side by side.Today there are
thousands of goans (or
rather, citizens of goan origin, like myself) in the
Govt. departments,
universities, the judiciary, hospitals, foreign
service, etc., in the most
qualified positions. They get there based on merit,
because there is no
discrimination against them. I was born in 1963 in
Mozambique, under
portuguese colonial rule. I have always been a fully
fledged portuguese
national. Never ever did I feel discriminated by the
whites or the
authorities. And we do not owe this to "India's
standing in the world". We
were integrated and respected long before India even
existed as an
independent country. Portugal knows Goa and Goans
and respects them on their
own merits. People tend to forget or ignore that the
Portuguese experience
is very different from the anglo-saxon one.
Rui Colla?o
Lisbon
From: "Tim de Mello" <timdemello at hotmail.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet] I am a Goan!
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:55:58 +0000
****************************************
For more information/links, see
http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
I am tired (and disappointed) reading e-mails from
Goans that put down
India and Goa and extoll the virtues of Europe,
America, Australia/NZ, etc.
We must remember that we are in these countries at
the sufferance of the
indigineous populations - particularly in the ones
governed by the
Anglo-Saxons (A-S). Let us not lose sight of the
fact that if suitable
A-S's could be found we would not be allowed to set
foot in these
countries. These countries (and South Africa, until
recently) were
developed for THEIR people - not for us! History
books have recorded these
facts - "White Australia", "Apartheid" (which
incidentally was based on the
Canadian system of separating the Whites from the
native populations, etc.
Also, look at the history of the Sikhs looking to
settle in Vancouver
(Komagata Maru in 1914), the way the Chinese &
Japanese people were dealt
with in the 1940s in the US and Canada, and
recently the plight of Berna
Cruz at the hands of US officials. Berna Cruz was
one case that received a
lot of publicity, but I have heard of many such
cases which go unreported.
Think about this the next time you try and visit
one of these A-S
countries.
Many Goans who keep casting aspersions on India and
Goa, I am sure, just
managed to qualify for entry into these A-S
countries by the skin of their
teeth and now prance around as something superior
to those in India. In
fairness, there are also many Indians (i.e. not
from Goa) who do the same.
They must remember one thing. YOU ARE AFFORDED
RESPECT (OR DIS-RESPECT)
(and suffer or enjoy your position in this society)
BECAUSE OF THE STANDING
OF INDIA IN THE WORLD TODAY. e.g. If you are
considered clever in IT it is
because of the standing of India in the world today
- and a prospective
employer is likely to give you preference over some
other non-Indian
immigrant. You are seen and viewed by the
mainstream majority as Indian not
as Goan - however much you try and argue your
pathetic cases here on
Goa-Net.
India has many problems and they are they there for
all to see. e.g. Just
go to Agra to view the Taj Mahal and you will pass
through some of the
filthiest places on earth. But just as well, India
has made giant strides
in almost every field of human endeavour.
Yes, they are there - if you choose to see.
Tim de Mello
timdemello at hotmail.com
Ontario, CANADA
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection
with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
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Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
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__________________________________________________
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from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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Gilbert Lawrence
2003-03-20 07:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Hi Fred,
Thanks for asking the silent majority to participate in the debate.
Can you tell us what the issue that is being debated is?
GL

Response:
The issue being debated is who can more eloquently state why the country
where they live is better than the countries where the rest of the
Goa-netters live.

Tariq Siddiqui

Response:
So are these Goan-netters self-appointed honorary ambassadors or PR
people?
Are they doing gadbad (sound better than spinning!) and we are supposed
to do Tali-bajao? I definitely prefer the Goan talking-heads than the
ones I currently see on CNN.

GL
Sunila Muzawar
2003-03-20 05:36:07 UTC
Permalink
From: Bernado Colaco <ole_xac at yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet] I am a Goan!
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 07:31:47 +0000 (GMT)
Shouldn't these journalists spend time on more
important indian issues like social injustices to 250
millions dalits who are treated like scums of the
earth?
You are absolutely right that journalists should spend more time on social
injustices to dalits and also to other communities which have a raw deal.
But our journalists are too busy focussing on the sensationalisation of news
in order to increase circulation numbers. And that is very sad. Which is why
the VHP has more say than a dalit organisation. And the Imam of Jama masjid
has more coverage than the moderate Muslims. Fact of life, and definitely an
area we all would want to change.
Millions of indians dip themsevles in Fair and Lovely
they will be white wannabes. Because white is superior
then black. Would a black indian actor(with a few
exceptions) make it to Bollywood?
Actually most Indians are very keen to have the wheat coloured complexion
which is typical of an Indian "fair" colour. This is not the same as the
European colour. However, if you actually look at it it is a world phenomena
and not really just an Indian one. White people spend hours under the sun
trying to tan themselves into getting a wheat coloured complexion too.

As for the black Indian actor think of Mithun Chakravarthy who was perhaps
the most successful actor of his generation with a string of hit films. And
what about Kamalhassan, Smita Patil, Rekha, the more recent Bipasha Basu,
etc. Also model Nayanika Chatterji has made real waves. And the recent
model, Deidre is also getting very popular.
Sunila


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chandor cotta
2003-03-20 17:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Please note the people of Goa were never given the promised referendum on autonomy or independence. There was no mandate from the people of Goa, on Indian? only invasion!



I was born a Goan, which means I am not Pakistani, Russian, Japanese etc.; this does not make me anti anything or anybody. You can call yourself anything you want do not force us to be your image! I was born a Goan and I would like to die a Goan not Indian.



41 years ago the Indian government invaded my country Goa and promised the indigenous goan people a referendum on autonomy or independence. People like us have been persistently asking for a referendum on Goa, to be decided by indigenous Goans, on autonomy or independence. The people of Goa are a passive and friendly race who does not have a tradition or culture of violence. Perhaps this is the reason Why Bangladesh and Pakistan is Independent? Would we be Indian if we were Islamic?



WWW.FreeGoa.com


Sunila Muzawar <smuzawar at hotmail.com> wrote:
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************


Remember, whatever we have done since liberation is of our own making. If
you don't like it, do something about it. The problem is at election time
instead of focussing on development we are more worried about caste and
religion. And the rest of the time we moan at the pace of development. Only
we can change things. No use moaning about Indians or the Portuguese.

Sunila

P.S. you are right about the bharati toilet. We did not even have decent
sanitation and public toilet facilities during Portuguese rule. It's only
after integrating with India that this has come about. So calling the
toilets bharati is no problem in my mind. After all we are all bharati and I
for one am proud to be one. However, if your intention was to be derogatory,
please imagine what Goa would have been without them.
From: Bernado Colaco
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet] I am a Goan!
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 06:20:04 +0000 (GMT)
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
Yes we have electricity that does not work!
Yes we have phones that do not work!
Yes we have roads full of potholes!
Yes we have malaria where thousands are infected and
die!
Yes we have 95% literacy where the so called literate
can not read write or listen!
Yes we have democracy where thugs, goons, smugglers
and thieves are elected!
What we have is a large bharati toilet in the making!
--- Sunila Muzawar wrote: >
_________________________________________________________________
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Tariq Siddiqui
2003-03-20 23:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by chandor cotta
Please note the people of Goa were never given the promised referendum on
autonomy or independence. There was no mandate from the people of Goa, on
Indian? only invasion!
This is indeed a tragedy that we have lived in. There should have been a
referendum or there should be one. However, the result of both cases, from
my experience, would be one favorable to India.

Fortunately, conditions in Goa under Indian rule have never been terrible
in any sense. Much of Goa's decline is the handiwork of its own people.
Ironically, administration in Goa always got better when it was under
direct rule from Delhi, via the Governor.

In such a situation, I doubt there will be many takers for a call to freedom
from India.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Neal Pinto
2003-03-21 05:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by chandor cotta
The people of Goa are a passive
and friendly race who does not
have a tradition or culture of
violence.
Since when are Goans their own "race"?


Neal Pinto
GoA-BoY at excite.com
http://www.nealpinto.com

-

--- On Thu 03/20, =?iso-8859-1?q?chandor=20cotta?= < chandor_cotta at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?chandor=20cotta?= [mailto: chandor_cotta at yahoo.co.uk]
To: goanet at goanet.org
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:56:24 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: [Goanet] I am a Goan!

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><TT><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Please note the people of Goa were never given the promised </SPAN></B></TT><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style'; mso-bidi-font-size: 13.5pt">referendum on autonomy or independence. There was no mandate from the people of Goa, on Indian? only invasion!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style'; mso-bidi-font-size: 13.5pt">?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style'; mso-bidi-font-size: 13.5pt">I was born a Goan, which means I am not Pakistani, Russian, Japanese etc.; this does not make me anti anything or anybody. You can call yourself anything you want do not force us to be your image! I was born a Goan and I would like to die a Goan not Indian.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><TT><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></TT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style'; mso-bidi-font-size: 13.5pt">41 years ago the Indian government invaded my country Goa and promised the indigenous goan people a referendum on autonomy or independence. People like us have been persistently asking for a referendum on Goa, to be decided by indigenous Goans, on autonomy or independence. The people of Goa are a passive and friendly race who does not have a tradition or culture of violence. Perhaps this is the reason Why Bangladesh and Pakistan is Independent? Would we be Indian if we were Islamic?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style'; mso-bidi-font-size: 13.5pt">?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style'; mso-bidi-font-size: 13.5pt">WWW.FreeGoa.com</SPAN></I></B></P>
<P>
<P>?<B><I>Sunila Muzawar <smuzawar at hotmail.com></I></B> wrote:</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">****************************************<BR>For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com<BR>****************************************<BR><BR><BR>Remember, whatever we have done since liberation is of our own making. If <BR>you don't like it, do something about it. The problem is at election time <BR>instead of focussing on development we are more worried about caste and <BR>religion. And the rest of the time we moan at the pace of development. Only <BR>we can change things. No use moaning about Indians or the Portuguese.<BR><BR>Sunila<BR><BR>P.S. you are right about the bharati toilet. We did not even have decent <BR>sanitation and public toilet facilities during Portuguese rule. It's only <BR>after integrating with India that this has come about. So calling the <BR>toilets bharati is no problem in my mind. After all we are all bharati and I <BR>for one am proud to be one. How

ever, if your intention was to be derogatory, <BR>please imagine what Goa would have been without them.<BR><BR>>From: Bernado Colaco <OLE_XAC at YAHOO.CO.UK><BR>>Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org<BR>>To: goanet at goanet.org<BR>>Subject: Re: [Goanet] I am a Goan!<BR>>Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 06:20:04 +0000 (GMT)<BR>><BR>>****************************************<BR>>For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com<BR>>****************************************<BR>><BR>><BR>>Yes we have electricity that does not work!<BR>><BR>>Yes we have phones that do not work!<BR>><BR>>Yes we have roads full of potholes!<BR>><BR>>Yes we have malaria where thousands are infected and<BR>>die!<BR>><BR>>Yes we have 95% literacy where the so called literate<BR>>can not read write or listen!<BR>><BR>>Yes we have democracy where thugs, goons, smugglers<BR>>and thieves are elected!<BR>><BR>>What we have is a large bharati to
ilet in the making!<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> --- Sunila Muzawar <SMUZAWAR at HOTMAIL.COM>wrote: ><BR><BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________________________<BR>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. <BR>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Goanet mailing list<BR>Goanet at goanet.org<BR>http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet</BLOCKQUOTE><p><p><br><hr size=1><a href="http://uk.yahoo.com/mail/tagline_xtra/?http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail_storage.html"><b><font face="Arial" size="2">With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs</font></b></a><br><p>

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Eddie
2003-03-21 22:05:54 UTC
Permalink
I work in Saudi Arabia, I am an Indian and a Goan.
I am proud of being an Indian and a Goan even though I have not
been able to do something for Goa, at the same time I have always
kept the image of Goans high whichever country I have been.

My dream, when I retire, is to go back to my village and do something
for Goa.

Being an Indian am going to cheer my Indian team this Sunday
who will play Australia in the world cup finals..

Come on India!
All the best to the Indian Team!

Note to Fred; Thanks for posting my personal message to you on Goanet.

Regards
Eddie Verdes
Saudi Arabia
Joel D'Souza
2003-03-22 04:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi Eddie,

Beautiful message. Hope it is infectious, hope more of us get
influenced/inspired by it.

Cheers.

Joel.
Post by Bernado Colaco
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
I work in Saudi Arabia, I am an Indian and a Goan.
I am proud of being an Indian and a Goan even though I have not
been able to do something for Goa, at the same time I have always
kept the image of Goans high whichever country I have been.
My dream, when I retire, is to go back to my village and do something
for Goa.
Being an Indian am going to cheer my Indian team this Sunday
who will play Australia in the world cup finals..
Come on India!
All the best to the Indian Team!
Note to Fred; Thanks for posting my personal message to you on Goanet.
Regards
Eddie Verdes
Saudi Arabia
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-03-22 05:01:04 UTC
Permalink
In case GoaNetters are tired with the news of the war, Fred has asked an
interesting set of questions in response to my original question: what
is the issue that is being (so heatedly) debated? Here is my respectful
opinion and response:

One person rightly pointed the issue being debated was about whose
country (of the Goa-netter) was better. This debate has long since
stopped being about: I am a (proud) Goan! Or ?

So Fred you are right in "getting confused". But as an insightful
journalist, you ask very perceptive questions. The opinions and the
counter-opinions tell more about the psyche of the writers than what
they have written about. Very little that was written was supported by
systematic data (as opposed to anecdotal experience). In fact many of
the writers went out of the way to (unnecessarily) show their own or the
other person's absurdity(ies).

GoaNetters should know: 1. We are our own worst enemies! 2. It does not
help to dignify negative comments! 3. The difference between important
explanations and silly remarks!

Finally we are very selective in quoting facts or history:
One GoaNetter loves to repeatedly portray Portuguese rule in a negative
light. He conveniently forgets that Albuquerque had no intentions to
come to Goa. He unsuccessfully tried Calicut, Cochin and Crangamore.
Albuquerque was invited to Goa by the Hindu Goans to end the atrocities
of Muslim rule. And while the Portuguese confiscated and destroyed much
property, (including during the inquisition) there are no historical
accounts of wanton human killing. However, just south Tipu Sultan of
Mysore (as a precaution and reprisal against the British) hurled unarmed
the Konkan Catholics, including women and children into concentration
camps and one was lucky to come out alive.

There are two sides to every story. Goanet is there to thoughtfully
educate and sometimes entertain other readers. It is not to harangue the
readers with silly and persistent outbursts (knee-jerk reactions) which
reflect our hang-ups or our ignorance! It is time we get-over and
beyond our idiosyncrasies.

-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org [mailto:goanet-admin at goanet.org] On Behalf
Of Frederick Noronha (FN)

****************************************


I'm getting confused. Is the issue as Tariq states it? Or is it also:

o Why the region I left is/would have/should have been the best in the
world?
o Why I'm glad I took the choice I did, and you should be sorry for
staying where you are?
o Why I'm-so-right, but you're-so-wrong
o Why I need to have the last word in this debate, regardless....

Okay, I out of here. The television war over Iraq should provide better
distractions to the real world problems we ordinary mortals have to
otherwise grapped with.

FN
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-03-22 21:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
One GoaNetter loves to repeatedly portray Portuguese rule in a negative
light. He conveniently forgets that Albuquerque had no intentions to
come to Goa. He unsuccessfully tried Calicut, Cochin and Crangamore.
Albuquerque was invited to Goa by the Hindu Goans to end the atrocities
of Muslim rule. And while the Portuguese confiscated and destroyed much
Timoja was not a Goan Hindu. He belonged from an area south of Goa that is
now in Karnataka named Bankapur. Besides, I have read in some books that
his brother, Sabaji was a governor of Goa serving the Adil Shahis of
Bijapur.
C Fernandes
2003-03-22 19:57:16 UTC
Permalink
Eddie,

It is very nice to know that you are Indian and Goan.

<<My dream, when I retire, is to go back to my village and do something for
Goa.>>

You are free to contribute to your Goan village and Goa whenever you want.
However, if you do NOW even 1% of what you are planning to do after your
retirement, I will appreciate your efforts 100 times more with praises and
blessings.

Kind regards and best wishes,

Cip Fernandes

Eddie wrote on 21 March 2003 22:06
****************************************


I work in Saudi Arabia, I am an Indian and a Goan.
I am proud of being an Indian and a Goan even though I have not
been able to do something for Goa, at the same time I have always
kept the image of Goans high whichever country I have been.

My dream, when I retire, is to go back to my village and do something
for Goa.

Being an Indian am going to cheer my Indian team this Sunday
who will play Australia in the world cup finals..

Come on India!
All the best to the Indian Team!

Note to Fred; Thanks for posting my personal message to you on Goanet.

Regards
Eddie Verdes
Saudi Arabia
Chimbelcho
2003-03-22 22:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Regardless, I think it would be prejudicial to base a conclusion of right
or wrong on such simplistic analyses. When we look back into historical
accounts, all we are left with is the result and not always the events
that led up to them or state of the mind and mood of the people that shape
such events.
Whatever the Portuguese, Hindu or Muslim past of Goa, we must accept their
legacy as a part of history and preserve this to the best
of our abilities.
Wise words Tariq. You have got it exactly right. I did not know you were a closet historian.

Cheers,

Santosh
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-03-22 23:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
One GoaNetter loves to repeatedly portray Portuguese rule in a
negative
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
light. He conveniently forgets that Albuquerque had no intentions to
come to Goa. He unsuccessfully tried Calicut, Cochin and Crangamore.
Albuquerque was invited to Goa by the Hindu Goans to end the
atrocities
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
of Muslim rule. And while the Portuguese confiscated and destroyed
much

Tariq Siddiqui wrote:

Whatever the Portuguese, Hindu or Muslim past of Goa, we must accept
their
legacy as a part of history and preserve this to the best of our
abilities.

The Portuguese rule of Goa may have been traumatic but there still
remains
an obligation on us to preserve this part of our history.

Gilbert Lawrence writes:

Fully agree with you about accepting the legacy of our rulers; though we
are not responsible for their actions. We can certainly learn from their
craziness and recklessness. Hopefully we can create a better society.

How about educating us about the traumatic role of Muslim rule (which
was also colonial and certainly not democratic) in Goa and in India? As
you say, "there still remains an obligation on us to preserve this part
of our history."
Thanks.

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