Discussion:
Goa Suraj and Florianos response
(too old to reply)
Vivek
2006-07-04 17:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Dear Floriano,

I think when a person speaks with conviction and from
his heart he forgets political correctness and the
need to be glib with words. Your acerbic style of
speaking is indeed refreshing at times!

There are however some points that I feel i must bring
up. I think that you are unnecessarily harsh on
Parrikar and the Goa BJP at times. I for one sincerely
believe that our ex-CM Parrikar was a genuinely honest
and one of the best CMs we have ever had.Unfortunately
he too speaks and acts with a arrogance that stems
from knowing that he is doing the right thing.

I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.


-vivek





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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 03:34:56 UTC
Permalink
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.

Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------
Post by Vivek
I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn
in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.
-vivek
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Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-05 08:33:26 UTC
Permalink
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some derrogatory symbol.

Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper" castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-05 08:33:26 UTC
Permalink
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some derrogatory symbol.

Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper" castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-05 08:33:26 UTC
Permalink
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some derrogatory symbol.

Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper" castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-05 08:33:26 UTC
Permalink
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some derrogatory symbol.

Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper" castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-05 08:33:26 UTC
Permalink
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some derrogatory symbol.

Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper" castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-05 08:33:26 UTC
Permalink
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some derrogatory symbol.

Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper" castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-05 08:33:26 UTC
Permalink
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some derrogatory symbol.

Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper" castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-05 16:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice
name for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along
the lines of Gohar maybe.
Elisabeth,
Immigrants will always enrich a population. They see
opportunities that those entrenched in the status quo
do not. The country becomes richer because of that.

Canada is such a place. In fact, it has even included
a tribute to immigrants in its national anthem, which
goes something like this:

O! Canada
My home on native land
True patriot love in all thy sons command
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
I for one believe that the new immigrants in south Goa
will chose better politicians than whats in place now
:-)

Mervyn3.0


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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 14:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.

1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?

2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?

3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.

4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)

5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.

Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.

As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear
a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and
I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran
too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some
derrogatory symbol.
Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some
time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper"
castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for
resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what
fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip
and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the
law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me
know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up
against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-07 00:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of Goanet should be:
say something nice to someone with the opposite views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)

Let me try and answer with some pop-sociology, or roadside knowledge.

On a more serious note, I think Mervyn hit the nail on the head by
saying "Immigrants will always enrich a population." History tells us
the Dutch realised this early on. So while, centuries back, the
southern Europeans (and others too) persecuted the Jews, the
Netherlands welcomed them. Guess who gained? There are mentions of how
this helped Holland to boost its global position, and probably gain in
other fields like science and learning too.

Political scientists define a consociational state as "a state which
has major internal divisions along ethnic, religious, or linguistic
lines, yet nonetheless manages to remain stable, due to consultation
among the elites of each of its major social groups." My question is:
can India, the Netherlands, Lebanon, Switzerland, Belgium... and Goa
too, think of being anything but this? See the debate here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociational_state

"Migrants" and the "outsider" problem, as I've argued earlier, is one
of the biggest red-herring that the simple-minded Goa has thrust upon
him over the past two decades and more. We were in college when the
1983 Vasco riots broke out.

The targets, as usual, were the poor. If we're talking about Goa's
resources and loss of access to them, then probably one needs to
target the resource-guzzling rich migrant, and the dollar/euro-buouyed
foreign tourist. But will anyone take on them? Definitely not! So,
isn't this another class battle, against the poor, being fought the
pretence of taking on 'outsiders'?

Secondly, when we talk of 'outsiders', isn't that a racial argument
where we assume someone is diluting our gene-pool? But even such an
assumption is far from true.

Goa is itself a melting pot. It has been, for 2000 years and more.
Look at your caste system in place. Even a glance to anyone but the
completely naive would suggest that these are diverse populations,
living with each other. Or tolerating each other.

We are causing panic reactions by talking about "dilution" of the Goan
population. Somebody on Goanet is building doomsday scenario of the
ethnic Goan population going down to 5%. Anyway, please keep in mind
that the definition of "Goan" is nothing but a reality shaped by
accidents of Portuguese conquest (and annexation of territory under
treaty).

In such a case, do we have anything to fear, other than the extremely
likely reality that we might not adjust at the required pace... and
simply become extinct? Like the dodo? Or that, the walls we build
against the 'outsider' might block them from becoming a part of Goan
society speedily enough, to ensure that we all share a common
interest, and don't end up getting used against each other.

[Incidentally, when I was doing some interviews in the red-light area
of Baina, when it existed, I was shocked to find a Kannadiga male, who
worked on board a trawler, speak fluent Konkani... and that too with a
Salcete Catholic accent! Sometimes, these experiences change your
worldview! No, don't call it the Stockholm syndrome. I do think that
when the reality doesn't match the stereotype, one often throws away
all the biases one had.]

Incidentally, some realities:

* Goa's GDP has been high, in significant part, because of the age-old
'money order economy', based on out-migration. Out-migration in turn
fuelled the demand for in-migration. That's why Bardez has been such a
magnet for people from Pernem, long before the 'outsiders' came in.
Every dollar of remittances would pull in more 'outsiders'. But would
a migrant stop sending in money, which s/he went abroad to be able to
do in the first place? You could call this the dollar-remittance trap!

* 'Outsiders' could, and are, contributing to the productive forces in
Goa. Churchill Alemao, who riles against them, recognises this reality
when he employes them in large numbers in his trawlers. Or, more
visibly, in his football team ;-)

* The 'cultural shift' needs to be addressed by ensuring that
so-called 'outsiders' become part of the Goan melting pot fast enough.
It isn't tough. I've seen a Sikh, an Oriya, and innumerable others
speak Konkani in next to no time. The danger is that they would get
blocked by the walls we are building around them. Or, around
ourselves!

* We do have problem areas on hand, in that politicians use the
'outsider' vote to undercut the local population's interest (promoting
their own, in the bargain, or that of big business and vested lobbies,
for which they are amply compensated). Then, in turn, they fuel
chauvinism against the 'outsider', so that the people's attention gets
neatly diverted from more genuine issues. A win-win-win game as far as
the politician goes.

* Another major issue is the resentment building up across almost all
parts of India against the 'outsider'. If this is the case, who is the
'outsider'? It would seem that the resentment is against that class of
people who can migrate and grab all the benefits of 'developments'
(this includes people like you and me), while large swarms are kept
totally out in the cold!

To my mind, the biggest challenge is whether we can get our act
together, avoid taking up simplistic and emotive issues, and build up
as South India has managed with a great infrastructure in education
and health (never mind that this started initially through the
detestable capitation-college route).

Migration is a complex issue. It's probably best symbolised by the
real-estate syndrome in coastal Goa. Expats are lured, using their
love of Goa, to invest in their acre (or rooms) by the sea. Migrant
labour is brought in, to undercut higher local wages. Local lobbies,
and the businessman who's quick enough, cashes in on both sides.
Finally, we end up with Benidorms along the Calangute beach, and ugly
buildings if all occupied would cause a crash in the available
infrastructure. But who would want to sacrifice that locked flat, even
for the "love of Goa". Probably the "love of Goa" doesn't allow you
to!

A catch-22 situation indeed. And don't we need those 'outsiders' to
take care of our elderly parents, build our flats, play the role of
domestics, trawl for our fish and play in our football teams so that
Goa's name can go places?

It's more complex than it seems to be; though at first count it's nice
to blame someone else and feel good about it! Anyway, Elisabeth, you
have an open mind on this issue, which is a good thing... hence my
attempt to debate the issue without getting personal or trivial
(hopefully). FN

PS: Written at 6 am ... so am extremely sleepy. Still some more work
before I can go off to bed for the "night". Sorry for any errors that
might have crept in...
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?
2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?
3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.
Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.
As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-07 00:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of Goanet should be:
say something nice to someone with the opposite views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)

Let me try and answer with some pop-sociology, or roadside knowledge.

On a more serious note, I think Mervyn hit the nail on the head by
saying "Immigrants will always enrich a population." History tells us
the Dutch realised this early on. So while, centuries back, the
southern Europeans (and others too) persecuted the Jews, the
Netherlands welcomed them. Guess who gained? There are mentions of how
this helped Holland to boost its global position, and probably gain in
other fields like science and learning too.

Political scientists define a consociational state as "a state which
has major internal divisions along ethnic, religious, or linguistic
lines, yet nonetheless manages to remain stable, due to consultation
among the elites of each of its major social groups." My question is:
can India, the Netherlands, Lebanon, Switzerland, Belgium... and Goa
too, think of being anything but this? See the debate here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociational_state

"Migrants" and the "outsider" problem, as I've argued earlier, is one
of the biggest red-herring that the simple-minded Goa has thrust upon
him over the past two decades and more. We were in college when the
1983 Vasco riots broke out.

The targets, as usual, were the poor. If we're talking about Goa's
resources and loss of access to them, then probably one needs to
target the resource-guzzling rich migrant, and the dollar/euro-buouyed
foreign tourist. But will anyone take on them? Definitely not! So,
isn't this another class battle, against the poor, being fought the
pretence of taking on 'outsiders'?

Secondly, when we talk of 'outsiders', isn't that a racial argument
where we assume someone is diluting our gene-pool? But even such an
assumption is far from true.

Goa is itself a melting pot. It has been, for 2000 years and more.
Look at your caste system in place. Even a glance to anyone but the
completely naive would suggest that these are diverse populations,
living with each other. Or tolerating each other.

We are causing panic reactions by talking about "dilution" of the Goan
population. Somebody on Goanet is building doomsday scenario of the
ethnic Goan population going down to 5%. Anyway, please keep in mind
that the definition of "Goan" is nothing but a reality shaped by
accidents of Portuguese conquest (and annexation of territory under
treaty).

In such a case, do we have anything to fear, other than the extremely
likely reality that we might not adjust at the required pace... and
simply become extinct? Like the dodo? Or that, the walls we build
against the 'outsider' might block them from becoming a part of Goan
society speedily enough, to ensure that we all share a common
interest, and don't end up getting used against each other.

[Incidentally, when I was doing some interviews in the red-light area
of Baina, when it existed, I was shocked to find a Kannadiga male, who
worked on board a trawler, speak fluent Konkani... and that too with a
Salcete Catholic accent! Sometimes, these experiences change your
worldview! No, don't call it the Stockholm syndrome. I do think that
when the reality doesn't match the stereotype, one often throws away
all the biases one had.]

Incidentally, some realities:

* Goa's GDP has been high, in significant part, because of the age-old
'money order economy', based on out-migration. Out-migration in turn
fuelled the demand for in-migration. That's why Bardez has been such a
magnet for people from Pernem, long before the 'outsiders' came in.
Every dollar of remittances would pull in more 'outsiders'. But would
a migrant stop sending in money, which s/he went abroad to be able to
do in the first place? You could call this the dollar-remittance trap!

* 'Outsiders' could, and are, contributing to the productive forces in
Goa. Churchill Alemao, who riles against them, recognises this reality
when he employes them in large numbers in his trawlers. Or, more
visibly, in his football team ;-)

* The 'cultural shift' needs to be addressed by ensuring that
so-called 'outsiders' become part of the Goan melting pot fast enough.
It isn't tough. I've seen a Sikh, an Oriya, and innumerable others
speak Konkani in next to no time. The danger is that they would get
blocked by the walls we are building around them. Or, around
ourselves!

* We do have problem areas on hand, in that politicians use the
'outsider' vote to undercut the local population's interest (promoting
their own, in the bargain, or that of big business and vested lobbies,
for which they are amply compensated). Then, in turn, they fuel
chauvinism against the 'outsider', so that the people's attention gets
neatly diverted from more genuine issues. A win-win-win game as far as
the politician goes.

* Another major issue is the resentment building up across almost all
parts of India against the 'outsider'. If this is the case, who is the
'outsider'? It would seem that the resentment is against that class of
people who can migrate and grab all the benefits of 'developments'
(this includes people like you and me), while large swarms are kept
totally out in the cold!

To my mind, the biggest challenge is whether we can get our act
together, avoid taking up simplistic and emotive issues, and build up
as South India has managed with a great infrastructure in education
and health (never mind that this started initially through the
detestable capitation-college route).

Migration is a complex issue. It's probably best symbolised by the
real-estate syndrome in coastal Goa. Expats are lured, using their
love of Goa, to invest in their acre (or rooms) by the sea. Migrant
labour is brought in, to undercut higher local wages. Local lobbies,
and the businessman who's quick enough, cashes in on both sides.
Finally, we end up with Benidorms along the Calangute beach, and ugly
buildings if all occupied would cause a crash in the available
infrastructure. But who would want to sacrifice that locked flat, even
for the "love of Goa". Probably the "love of Goa" doesn't allow you
to!

A catch-22 situation indeed. And don't we need those 'outsiders' to
take care of our elderly parents, build our flats, play the role of
domestics, trawl for our fish and play in our football teams so that
Goa's name can go places?

It's more complex than it seems to be; though at first count it's nice
to blame someone else and feel good about it! Anyway, Elisabeth, you
have an open mind on this issue, which is a good thing... hence my
attempt to debate the issue without getting personal or trivial
(hopefully). FN

PS: Written at 6 am ... so am extremely sleepy. Still some more work
before I can go off to bed for the "night". Sorry for any errors that
might have crept in...
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?
2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?
3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.
Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.
As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-07 00:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of Goanet should be:
say something nice to someone with the opposite views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)

Let me try and answer with some pop-sociology, or roadside knowledge.

On a more serious note, I think Mervyn hit the nail on the head by
saying "Immigrants will always enrich a population." History tells us
the Dutch realised this early on. So while, centuries back, the
southern Europeans (and others too) persecuted the Jews, the
Netherlands welcomed them. Guess who gained? There are mentions of how
this helped Holland to boost its global position, and probably gain in
other fields like science and learning too.

Political scientists define a consociational state as "a state which
has major internal divisions along ethnic, religious, or linguistic
lines, yet nonetheless manages to remain stable, due to consultation
among the elites of each of its major social groups." My question is:
can India, the Netherlands, Lebanon, Switzerland, Belgium... and Goa
too, think of being anything but this? See the debate here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociational_state

"Migrants" and the "outsider" problem, as I've argued earlier, is one
of the biggest red-herring that the simple-minded Goa has thrust upon
him over the past two decades and more. We were in college when the
1983 Vasco riots broke out.

The targets, as usual, were the poor. If we're talking about Goa's
resources and loss of access to them, then probably one needs to
target the resource-guzzling rich migrant, and the dollar/euro-buouyed
foreign tourist. But will anyone take on them? Definitely not! So,
isn't this another class battle, against the poor, being fought the
pretence of taking on 'outsiders'?

Secondly, when we talk of 'outsiders', isn't that a racial argument
where we assume someone is diluting our gene-pool? But even such an
assumption is far from true.

Goa is itself a melting pot. It has been, for 2000 years and more.
Look at your caste system in place. Even a glance to anyone but the
completely naive would suggest that these are diverse populations,
living with each other. Or tolerating each other.

We are causing panic reactions by talking about "dilution" of the Goan
population. Somebody on Goanet is building doomsday scenario of the
ethnic Goan population going down to 5%. Anyway, please keep in mind
that the definition of "Goan" is nothing but a reality shaped by
accidents of Portuguese conquest (and annexation of territory under
treaty).

In such a case, do we have anything to fear, other than the extremely
likely reality that we might not adjust at the required pace... and
simply become extinct? Like the dodo? Or that, the walls we build
against the 'outsider' might block them from becoming a part of Goan
society speedily enough, to ensure that we all share a common
interest, and don't end up getting used against each other.

[Incidentally, when I was doing some interviews in the red-light area
of Baina, when it existed, I was shocked to find a Kannadiga male, who
worked on board a trawler, speak fluent Konkani... and that too with a
Salcete Catholic accent! Sometimes, these experiences change your
worldview! No, don't call it the Stockholm syndrome. I do think that
when the reality doesn't match the stereotype, one often throws away
all the biases one had.]

Incidentally, some realities:

* Goa's GDP has been high, in significant part, because of the age-old
'money order economy', based on out-migration. Out-migration in turn
fuelled the demand for in-migration. That's why Bardez has been such a
magnet for people from Pernem, long before the 'outsiders' came in.
Every dollar of remittances would pull in more 'outsiders'. But would
a migrant stop sending in money, which s/he went abroad to be able to
do in the first place? You could call this the dollar-remittance trap!

* 'Outsiders' could, and are, contributing to the productive forces in
Goa. Churchill Alemao, who riles against them, recognises this reality
when he employes them in large numbers in his trawlers. Or, more
visibly, in his football team ;-)

* The 'cultural shift' needs to be addressed by ensuring that
so-called 'outsiders' become part of the Goan melting pot fast enough.
It isn't tough. I've seen a Sikh, an Oriya, and innumerable others
speak Konkani in next to no time. The danger is that they would get
blocked by the walls we are building around them. Or, around
ourselves!

* We do have problem areas on hand, in that politicians use the
'outsider' vote to undercut the local population's interest (promoting
their own, in the bargain, or that of big business and vested lobbies,
for which they are amply compensated). Then, in turn, they fuel
chauvinism against the 'outsider', so that the people's attention gets
neatly diverted from more genuine issues. A win-win-win game as far as
the politician goes.

* Another major issue is the resentment building up across almost all
parts of India against the 'outsider'. If this is the case, who is the
'outsider'? It would seem that the resentment is against that class of
people who can migrate and grab all the benefits of 'developments'
(this includes people like you and me), while large swarms are kept
totally out in the cold!

To my mind, the biggest challenge is whether we can get our act
together, avoid taking up simplistic and emotive issues, and build up
as South India has managed with a great infrastructure in education
and health (never mind that this started initially through the
detestable capitation-college route).

Migration is a complex issue. It's probably best symbolised by the
real-estate syndrome in coastal Goa. Expats are lured, using their
love of Goa, to invest in their acre (or rooms) by the sea. Migrant
labour is brought in, to undercut higher local wages. Local lobbies,
and the businessman who's quick enough, cashes in on both sides.
Finally, we end up with Benidorms along the Calangute beach, and ugly
buildings if all occupied would cause a crash in the available
infrastructure. But who would want to sacrifice that locked flat, even
for the "love of Goa". Probably the "love of Goa" doesn't allow you
to!

A catch-22 situation indeed. And don't we need those 'outsiders' to
take care of our elderly parents, build our flats, play the role of
domestics, trawl for our fish and play in our football teams so that
Goa's name can go places?

It's more complex than it seems to be; though at first count it's nice
to blame someone else and feel good about it! Anyway, Elisabeth, you
have an open mind on this issue, which is a good thing... hence my
attempt to debate the issue without getting personal or trivial
(hopefully). FN

PS: Written at 6 am ... so am extremely sleepy. Still some more work
before I can go off to bed for the "night". Sorry for any errors that
might have crept in...
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?
2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?
3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.
Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.
As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-07 00:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of Goanet should be:
say something nice to someone with the opposite views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)

Let me try and answer with some pop-sociology, or roadside knowledge.

On a more serious note, I think Mervyn hit the nail on the head by
saying "Immigrants will always enrich a population." History tells us
the Dutch realised this early on. So while, centuries back, the
southern Europeans (and others too) persecuted the Jews, the
Netherlands welcomed them. Guess who gained? There are mentions of how
this helped Holland to boost its global position, and probably gain in
other fields like science and learning too.

Political scientists define a consociational state as "a state which
has major internal divisions along ethnic, religious, or linguistic
lines, yet nonetheless manages to remain stable, due to consultation
among the elites of each of its major social groups." My question is:
can India, the Netherlands, Lebanon, Switzerland, Belgium... and Goa
too, think of being anything but this? See the debate here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociational_state

"Migrants" and the "outsider" problem, as I've argued earlier, is one
of the biggest red-herring that the simple-minded Goa has thrust upon
him over the past two decades and more. We were in college when the
1983 Vasco riots broke out.

The targets, as usual, were the poor. If we're talking about Goa's
resources and loss of access to them, then probably one needs to
target the resource-guzzling rich migrant, and the dollar/euro-buouyed
foreign tourist. But will anyone take on them? Definitely not! So,
isn't this another class battle, against the poor, being fought the
pretence of taking on 'outsiders'?

Secondly, when we talk of 'outsiders', isn't that a racial argument
where we assume someone is diluting our gene-pool? But even such an
assumption is far from true.

Goa is itself a melting pot. It has been, for 2000 years and more.
Look at your caste system in place. Even a glance to anyone but the
completely naive would suggest that these are diverse populations,
living with each other. Or tolerating each other.

We are causing panic reactions by talking about "dilution" of the Goan
population. Somebody on Goanet is building doomsday scenario of the
ethnic Goan population going down to 5%. Anyway, please keep in mind
that the definition of "Goan" is nothing but a reality shaped by
accidents of Portuguese conquest (and annexation of territory under
treaty).

In such a case, do we have anything to fear, other than the extremely
likely reality that we might not adjust at the required pace... and
simply become extinct? Like the dodo? Or that, the walls we build
against the 'outsider' might block them from becoming a part of Goan
society speedily enough, to ensure that we all share a common
interest, and don't end up getting used against each other.

[Incidentally, when I was doing some interviews in the red-light area
of Baina, when it existed, I was shocked to find a Kannadiga male, who
worked on board a trawler, speak fluent Konkani... and that too with a
Salcete Catholic accent! Sometimes, these experiences change your
worldview! No, don't call it the Stockholm syndrome. I do think that
when the reality doesn't match the stereotype, one often throws away
all the biases one had.]

Incidentally, some realities:

* Goa's GDP has been high, in significant part, because of the age-old
'money order economy', based on out-migration. Out-migration in turn
fuelled the demand for in-migration. That's why Bardez has been such a
magnet for people from Pernem, long before the 'outsiders' came in.
Every dollar of remittances would pull in more 'outsiders'. But would
a migrant stop sending in money, which s/he went abroad to be able to
do in the first place? You could call this the dollar-remittance trap!

* 'Outsiders' could, and are, contributing to the productive forces in
Goa. Churchill Alemao, who riles against them, recognises this reality
when he employes them in large numbers in his trawlers. Or, more
visibly, in his football team ;-)

* The 'cultural shift' needs to be addressed by ensuring that
so-called 'outsiders' become part of the Goan melting pot fast enough.
It isn't tough. I've seen a Sikh, an Oriya, and innumerable others
speak Konkani in next to no time. The danger is that they would get
blocked by the walls we are building around them. Or, around
ourselves!

* We do have problem areas on hand, in that politicians use the
'outsider' vote to undercut the local population's interest (promoting
their own, in the bargain, or that of big business and vested lobbies,
for which they are amply compensated). Then, in turn, they fuel
chauvinism against the 'outsider', so that the people's attention gets
neatly diverted from more genuine issues. A win-win-win game as far as
the politician goes.

* Another major issue is the resentment building up across almost all
parts of India against the 'outsider'. If this is the case, who is the
'outsider'? It would seem that the resentment is against that class of
people who can migrate and grab all the benefits of 'developments'
(this includes people like you and me), while large swarms are kept
totally out in the cold!

To my mind, the biggest challenge is whether we can get our act
together, avoid taking up simplistic and emotive issues, and build up
as South India has managed with a great infrastructure in education
and health (never mind that this started initially through the
detestable capitation-college route).

Migration is a complex issue. It's probably best symbolised by the
real-estate syndrome in coastal Goa. Expats are lured, using their
love of Goa, to invest in their acre (or rooms) by the sea. Migrant
labour is brought in, to undercut higher local wages. Local lobbies,
and the businessman who's quick enough, cashes in on both sides.
Finally, we end up with Benidorms along the Calangute beach, and ugly
buildings if all occupied would cause a crash in the available
infrastructure. But who would want to sacrifice that locked flat, even
for the "love of Goa". Probably the "love of Goa" doesn't allow you
to!

A catch-22 situation indeed. And don't we need those 'outsiders' to
take care of our elderly parents, build our flats, play the role of
domestics, trawl for our fish and play in our football teams so that
Goa's name can go places?

It's more complex than it seems to be; though at first count it's nice
to blame someone else and feel good about it! Anyway, Elisabeth, you
have an open mind on this issue, which is a good thing... hence my
attempt to debate the issue without getting personal or trivial
(hopefully). FN

PS: Written at 6 am ... so am extremely sleepy. Still some more work
before I can go off to bed for the "night". Sorry for any errors that
might have crept in...
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?
2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?
3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.
Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.
As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-07 00:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of Goanet should be:
say something nice to someone with the opposite views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)

Let me try and answer with some pop-sociology, or roadside knowledge.

On a more serious note, I think Mervyn hit the nail on the head by
saying "Immigrants will always enrich a population." History tells us
the Dutch realised this early on. So while, centuries back, the
southern Europeans (and others too) persecuted the Jews, the
Netherlands welcomed them. Guess who gained? There are mentions of how
this helped Holland to boost its global position, and probably gain in
other fields like science and learning too.

Political scientists define a consociational state as "a state which
has major internal divisions along ethnic, religious, or linguistic
lines, yet nonetheless manages to remain stable, due to consultation
among the elites of each of its major social groups." My question is:
can India, the Netherlands, Lebanon, Switzerland, Belgium... and Goa
too, think of being anything but this? See the debate here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociational_state

"Migrants" and the "outsider" problem, as I've argued earlier, is one
of the biggest red-herring that the simple-minded Goa has thrust upon
him over the past two decades and more. We were in college when the
1983 Vasco riots broke out.

The targets, as usual, were the poor. If we're talking about Goa's
resources and loss of access to them, then probably one needs to
target the resource-guzzling rich migrant, and the dollar/euro-buouyed
foreign tourist. But will anyone take on them? Definitely not! So,
isn't this another class battle, against the poor, being fought the
pretence of taking on 'outsiders'?

Secondly, when we talk of 'outsiders', isn't that a racial argument
where we assume someone is diluting our gene-pool? But even such an
assumption is far from true.

Goa is itself a melting pot. It has been, for 2000 years and more.
Look at your caste system in place. Even a glance to anyone but the
completely naive would suggest that these are diverse populations,
living with each other. Or tolerating each other.

We are causing panic reactions by talking about "dilution" of the Goan
population. Somebody on Goanet is building doomsday scenario of the
ethnic Goan population going down to 5%. Anyway, please keep in mind
that the definition of "Goan" is nothing but a reality shaped by
accidents of Portuguese conquest (and annexation of territory under
treaty).

In such a case, do we have anything to fear, other than the extremely
likely reality that we might not adjust at the required pace... and
simply become extinct? Like the dodo? Or that, the walls we build
against the 'outsider' might block them from becoming a part of Goan
society speedily enough, to ensure that we all share a common
interest, and don't end up getting used against each other.

[Incidentally, when I was doing some interviews in the red-light area
of Baina, when it existed, I was shocked to find a Kannadiga male, who
worked on board a trawler, speak fluent Konkani... and that too with a
Salcete Catholic accent! Sometimes, these experiences change your
worldview! No, don't call it the Stockholm syndrome. I do think that
when the reality doesn't match the stereotype, one often throws away
all the biases one had.]

Incidentally, some realities:

* Goa's GDP has been high, in significant part, because of the age-old
'money order economy', based on out-migration. Out-migration in turn
fuelled the demand for in-migration. That's why Bardez has been such a
magnet for people from Pernem, long before the 'outsiders' came in.
Every dollar of remittances would pull in more 'outsiders'. But would
a migrant stop sending in money, which s/he went abroad to be able to
do in the first place? You could call this the dollar-remittance trap!

* 'Outsiders' could, and are, contributing to the productive forces in
Goa. Churchill Alemao, who riles against them, recognises this reality
when he employes them in large numbers in his trawlers. Or, more
visibly, in his football team ;-)

* The 'cultural shift' needs to be addressed by ensuring that
so-called 'outsiders' become part of the Goan melting pot fast enough.
It isn't tough. I've seen a Sikh, an Oriya, and innumerable others
speak Konkani in next to no time. The danger is that they would get
blocked by the walls we are building around them. Or, around
ourselves!

* We do have problem areas on hand, in that politicians use the
'outsider' vote to undercut the local population's interest (promoting
their own, in the bargain, or that of big business and vested lobbies,
for which they are amply compensated). Then, in turn, they fuel
chauvinism against the 'outsider', so that the people's attention gets
neatly diverted from more genuine issues. A win-win-win game as far as
the politician goes.

* Another major issue is the resentment building up across almost all
parts of India against the 'outsider'. If this is the case, who is the
'outsider'? It would seem that the resentment is against that class of
people who can migrate and grab all the benefits of 'developments'
(this includes people like you and me), while large swarms are kept
totally out in the cold!

To my mind, the biggest challenge is whether we can get our act
together, avoid taking up simplistic and emotive issues, and build up
as South India has managed with a great infrastructure in education
and health (never mind that this started initially through the
detestable capitation-college route).

Migration is a complex issue. It's probably best symbolised by the
real-estate syndrome in coastal Goa. Expats are lured, using their
love of Goa, to invest in their acre (or rooms) by the sea. Migrant
labour is brought in, to undercut higher local wages. Local lobbies,
and the businessman who's quick enough, cashes in on both sides.
Finally, we end up with Benidorms along the Calangute beach, and ugly
buildings if all occupied would cause a crash in the available
infrastructure. But who would want to sacrifice that locked flat, even
for the "love of Goa". Probably the "love of Goa" doesn't allow you
to!

A catch-22 situation indeed. And don't we need those 'outsiders' to
take care of our elderly parents, build our flats, play the role of
domestics, trawl for our fish and play in our football teams so that
Goa's name can go places?

It's more complex than it seems to be; though at first count it's nice
to blame someone else and feel good about it! Anyway, Elisabeth, you
have an open mind on this issue, which is a good thing... hence my
attempt to debate the issue without getting personal or trivial
(hopefully). FN

PS: Written at 6 am ... so am extremely sleepy. Still some more work
before I can go off to bed for the "night". Sorry for any errors that
might have crept in...
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?
2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?
3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.
Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.
As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-07 00:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of Goanet should be:
say something nice to someone with the opposite views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)

Let me try and answer with some pop-sociology, or roadside knowledge.

On a more serious note, I think Mervyn hit the nail on the head by
saying "Immigrants will always enrich a population." History tells us
the Dutch realised this early on. So while, centuries back, the
southern Europeans (and others too) persecuted the Jews, the
Netherlands welcomed them. Guess who gained? There are mentions of how
this helped Holland to boost its global position, and probably gain in
other fields like science and learning too.

Political scientists define a consociational state as "a state which
has major internal divisions along ethnic, religious, or linguistic
lines, yet nonetheless manages to remain stable, due to consultation
among the elites of each of its major social groups." My question is:
can India, the Netherlands, Lebanon, Switzerland, Belgium... and Goa
too, think of being anything but this? See the debate here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociational_state

"Migrants" and the "outsider" problem, as I've argued earlier, is one
of the biggest red-herring that the simple-minded Goa has thrust upon
him over the past two decades and more. We were in college when the
1983 Vasco riots broke out.

The targets, as usual, were the poor. If we're talking about Goa's
resources and loss of access to them, then probably one needs to
target the resource-guzzling rich migrant, and the dollar/euro-buouyed
foreign tourist. But will anyone take on them? Definitely not! So,
isn't this another class battle, against the poor, being fought the
pretence of taking on 'outsiders'?

Secondly, when we talk of 'outsiders', isn't that a racial argument
where we assume someone is diluting our gene-pool? But even such an
assumption is far from true.

Goa is itself a melting pot. It has been, for 2000 years and more.
Look at your caste system in place. Even a glance to anyone but the
completely naive would suggest that these are diverse populations,
living with each other. Or tolerating each other.

We are causing panic reactions by talking about "dilution" of the Goan
population. Somebody on Goanet is building doomsday scenario of the
ethnic Goan population going down to 5%. Anyway, please keep in mind
that the definition of "Goan" is nothing but a reality shaped by
accidents of Portuguese conquest (and annexation of territory under
treaty).

In such a case, do we have anything to fear, other than the extremely
likely reality that we might not adjust at the required pace... and
simply become extinct? Like the dodo? Or that, the walls we build
against the 'outsider' might block them from becoming a part of Goan
society speedily enough, to ensure that we all share a common
interest, and don't end up getting used against each other.

[Incidentally, when I was doing some interviews in the red-light area
of Baina, when it existed, I was shocked to find a Kannadiga male, who
worked on board a trawler, speak fluent Konkani... and that too with a
Salcete Catholic accent! Sometimes, these experiences change your
worldview! No, don't call it the Stockholm syndrome. I do think that
when the reality doesn't match the stereotype, one often throws away
all the biases one had.]

Incidentally, some realities:

* Goa's GDP has been high, in significant part, because of the age-old
'money order economy', based on out-migration. Out-migration in turn
fuelled the demand for in-migration. That's why Bardez has been such a
magnet for people from Pernem, long before the 'outsiders' came in.
Every dollar of remittances would pull in more 'outsiders'. But would
a migrant stop sending in money, which s/he went abroad to be able to
do in the first place? You could call this the dollar-remittance trap!

* 'Outsiders' could, and are, contributing to the productive forces in
Goa. Churchill Alemao, who riles against them, recognises this reality
when he employes them in large numbers in his trawlers. Or, more
visibly, in his football team ;-)

* The 'cultural shift' needs to be addressed by ensuring that
so-called 'outsiders' become part of the Goan melting pot fast enough.
It isn't tough. I've seen a Sikh, an Oriya, and innumerable others
speak Konkani in next to no time. The danger is that they would get
blocked by the walls we are building around them. Or, around
ourselves!

* We do have problem areas on hand, in that politicians use the
'outsider' vote to undercut the local population's interest (promoting
their own, in the bargain, or that of big business and vested lobbies,
for which they are amply compensated). Then, in turn, they fuel
chauvinism against the 'outsider', so that the people's attention gets
neatly diverted from more genuine issues. A win-win-win game as far as
the politician goes.

* Another major issue is the resentment building up across almost all
parts of India against the 'outsider'. If this is the case, who is the
'outsider'? It would seem that the resentment is against that class of
people who can migrate and grab all the benefits of 'developments'
(this includes people like you and me), while large swarms are kept
totally out in the cold!

To my mind, the biggest challenge is whether we can get our act
together, avoid taking up simplistic and emotive issues, and build up
as South India has managed with a great infrastructure in education
and health (never mind that this started initially through the
detestable capitation-college route).

Migration is a complex issue. It's probably best symbolised by the
real-estate syndrome in coastal Goa. Expats are lured, using their
love of Goa, to invest in their acre (or rooms) by the sea. Migrant
labour is brought in, to undercut higher local wages. Local lobbies,
and the businessman who's quick enough, cashes in on both sides.
Finally, we end up with Benidorms along the Calangute beach, and ugly
buildings if all occupied would cause a crash in the available
infrastructure. But who would want to sacrifice that locked flat, even
for the "love of Goa". Probably the "love of Goa" doesn't allow you
to!

A catch-22 situation indeed. And don't we need those 'outsiders' to
take care of our elderly parents, build our flats, play the role of
domestics, trawl for our fish and play in our football teams so that
Goa's name can go places?

It's more complex than it seems to be; though at first count it's nice
to blame someone else and feel good about it! Anyway, Elisabeth, you
have an open mind on this issue, which is a good thing... hence my
attempt to debate the issue without getting personal or trivial
(hopefully). FN

PS: Written at 6 am ... so am extremely sleepy. Still some more work
before I can go off to bed for the "night". Sorry for any errors that
might have crept in...
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?
2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?
3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.
Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.
As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-07 00:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of Goanet should be:
say something nice to someone with the opposite views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)

Let me try and answer with some pop-sociology, or roadside knowledge.

On a more serious note, I think Mervyn hit the nail on the head by
saying "Immigrants will always enrich a population." History tells us
the Dutch realised this early on. So while, centuries back, the
southern Europeans (and others too) persecuted the Jews, the
Netherlands welcomed them. Guess who gained? There are mentions of how
this helped Holland to boost its global position, and probably gain in
other fields like science and learning too.

Political scientists define a consociational state as "a state which
has major internal divisions along ethnic, religious, or linguistic
lines, yet nonetheless manages to remain stable, due to consultation
among the elites of each of its major social groups." My question is:
can India, the Netherlands, Lebanon, Switzerland, Belgium... and Goa
too, think of being anything but this? See the debate here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociational_state

"Migrants" and the "outsider" problem, as I've argued earlier, is one
of the biggest red-herring that the simple-minded Goa has thrust upon
him over the past two decades and more. We were in college when the
1983 Vasco riots broke out.

The targets, as usual, were the poor. If we're talking about Goa's
resources and loss of access to them, then probably one needs to
target the resource-guzzling rich migrant, and the dollar/euro-buouyed
foreign tourist. But will anyone take on them? Definitely not! So,
isn't this another class battle, against the poor, being fought the
pretence of taking on 'outsiders'?

Secondly, when we talk of 'outsiders', isn't that a racial argument
where we assume someone is diluting our gene-pool? But even such an
assumption is far from true.

Goa is itself a melting pot. It has been, for 2000 years and more.
Look at your caste system in place. Even a glance to anyone but the
completely naive would suggest that these are diverse populations,
living with each other. Or tolerating each other.

We are causing panic reactions by talking about "dilution" of the Goan
population. Somebody on Goanet is building doomsday scenario of the
ethnic Goan population going down to 5%. Anyway, please keep in mind
that the definition of "Goan" is nothing but a reality shaped by
accidents of Portuguese conquest (and annexation of territory under
treaty).

In such a case, do we have anything to fear, other than the extremely
likely reality that we might not adjust at the required pace... and
simply become extinct? Like the dodo? Or that, the walls we build
against the 'outsider' might block them from becoming a part of Goan
society speedily enough, to ensure that we all share a common
interest, and don't end up getting used against each other.

[Incidentally, when I was doing some interviews in the red-light area
of Baina, when it existed, I was shocked to find a Kannadiga male, who
worked on board a trawler, speak fluent Konkani... and that too with a
Salcete Catholic accent! Sometimes, these experiences change your
worldview! No, don't call it the Stockholm syndrome. I do think that
when the reality doesn't match the stereotype, one often throws away
all the biases one had.]

Incidentally, some realities:

* Goa's GDP has been high, in significant part, because of the age-old
'money order economy', based on out-migration. Out-migration in turn
fuelled the demand for in-migration. That's why Bardez has been such a
magnet for people from Pernem, long before the 'outsiders' came in.
Every dollar of remittances would pull in more 'outsiders'. But would
a migrant stop sending in money, which s/he went abroad to be able to
do in the first place? You could call this the dollar-remittance trap!

* 'Outsiders' could, and are, contributing to the productive forces in
Goa. Churchill Alemao, who riles against them, recognises this reality
when he employes them in large numbers in his trawlers. Or, more
visibly, in his football team ;-)

* The 'cultural shift' needs to be addressed by ensuring that
so-called 'outsiders' become part of the Goan melting pot fast enough.
It isn't tough. I've seen a Sikh, an Oriya, and innumerable others
speak Konkani in next to no time. The danger is that they would get
blocked by the walls we are building around them. Or, around
ourselves!

* We do have problem areas on hand, in that politicians use the
'outsider' vote to undercut the local population's interest (promoting
their own, in the bargain, or that of big business and vested lobbies,
for which they are amply compensated). Then, in turn, they fuel
chauvinism against the 'outsider', so that the people's attention gets
neatly diverted from more genuine issues. A win-win-win game as far as
the politician goes.

* Another major issue is the resentment building up across almost all
parts of India against the 'outsider'. If this is the case, who is the
'outsider'? It would seem that the resentment is against that class of
people who can migrate and grab all the benefits of 'developments'
(this includes people like you and me), while large swarms are kept
totally out in the cold!

To my mind, the biggest challenge is whether we can get our act
together, avoid taking up simplistic and emotive issues, and build up
as South India has managed with a great infrastructure in education
and health (never mind that this started initially through the
detestable capitation-college route).

Migration is a complex issue. It's probably best symbolised by the
real-estate syndrome in coastal Goa. Expats are lured, using their
love of Goa, to invest in their acre (or rooms) by the sea. Migrant
labour is brought in, to undercut higher local wages. Local lobbies,
and the businessman who's quick enough, cashes in on both sides.
Finally, we end up with Benidorms along the Calangute beach, and ugly
buildings if all occupied would cause a crash in the available
infrastructure. But who would want to sacrifice that locked flat, even
for the "love of Goa". Probably the "love of Goa" doesn't allow you
to!

A catch-22 situation indeed. And don't we need those 'outsiders' to
take care of our elderly parents, build our flats, play the role of
domestics, trawl for our fish and play in our football teams so that
Goa's name can go places?

It's more complex than it seems to be; though at first count it's nice
to blame someone else and feel good about it! Anyway, Elisabeth, you
have an open mind on this issue, which is a good thing... hence my
attempt to debate the issue without getting personal or trivial
(hopefully). FN

PS: Written at 6 am ... so am extremely sleepy. Still some more work
before I can go off to bed for the "night". Sorry for any errors that
might have crept in...
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?
2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?
3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.
Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.
As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-07 02:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
Elisabeth,
People who migrate do so because they are looking for
work. I have yet to hear of any study recording poor
migrants bringing along criminals with them.

On the other hand, I have heard politicians repeating
over and over that immigrants are "bad." Just like
Ambassador PDD, these politicians know that if they
repeat their statements consistently, some people will
begin to believe them.

Mervyn3.0









__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-07 14:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a Che
Guevara sort of way :))

I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
say something nice to someone with the opposite
views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)
__________________________________________________
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-07 22:26:05 UTC
Permalink
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

=======================================
Folks,

I am more than a little surprised at some of the views expressed by
Elizabeth and Floriano. My questions:

What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?

Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?


Eddie Fernandes
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 03:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,

I wish you wouldn't use emotive words like ethnic
cleansing. If you have read my posts on the matter
than you'll know that I have legitimate concerns about
influxing a huge number of people into a society that
has managed to control its population thus far. If you
care to, you can go through the archives and share
your views on the points I have put forward one by
one, instead of being unduly emotional on account
Floriano's and my views on the matter.

Incidentally, Floriano and I are not the only ones in
Goa, sitting in the thinking mode on a rock at Donna
Paula and wondering about the issue of migrant labour.
These are legitimate concerns voiced very openly and
loudly by a large section of the population in Goa. We
can choose to discuss them or we can choose to ignore
them, but it's an issue that cannot be swept under the
carpet or brushed aside. Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
-------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Folks,
I am more than a little surprised at some of the
views expressed by
What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a
la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?
Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they
also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?
Eddie Fernandes
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-08 11:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elizabeth

Thanks for the advice about emotional histrionics of Teodolina the Goan
fisherwoman.

I am prepared to accept your refusal to answer the question about ethnic
cleansing but please respond to my other question:
Do you believe in Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf for the Arabs, England for the English etc?

Best wishes,

Eddie
==============================================
-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
[mailto:goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org] On Behalf Of Elisabeth Carvalho
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa Suraj and migrant voting rights.

Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 13:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,
What was your question about ethnic cleansing? I just
thought it was a rhetorical statement, and undeserving
of an response. As I pointed out, the ordinary man on
the Goan street is faced with the problems of migrant
labour. Is he to be accused of contemplating genocide
a la Hitler. Or does he deserve answers as to where
all the migrant labour is going to be accommodated,
how it is going to be assimilated into mainstream Goa,
how the depression in daily wage rate is going to be
tackled, how shop-owners are going to be compensated
when hawkers set up shop next to them on the pavement.
Perhaps you should take the time to answer these
questions before you glibly accuse me of ethnic
cleansing.

As for the second part of your question:

The Arabian gulf has always been for the Arabs and it
is one of the reasons it has become so wealthy.
Because it is efficient in managing its guest-workers.

Maharashtra should have been for the Maharashtrans
barring the extent they could accommodate and the
labour supply they needed. Mumbai today is one of
worst cities in the world to live in. It boasts the
biggest slum in Asia not to mention the poorest
standard of living for its other residents. It has
long sought out ways to curtail its migrant
population, including the use of identity cards.
Infact, it is one of their most debated election
issues. Unfortunately for Maharashtra it is trying to
shut the stable door long after the horse has bolted.
I don't wish the same for Goa. Let's have a policy
now.

As for, India for Indians? How many people do you know
who want to migrate to India? Anyone you know making
counterfeit documents and passports to sneak into
India?

England, am not acquainted with its policies and hence
unable to comment. To the best of my knowledge the
only outside labour they've allowed is a trickle from
ex-colonies (that too out of colonial guilt) and now
on account of EU policies, they are battling a
migrancy problem, just like all the other affluent
states in Europe which include Germany and France.

Elisabeth
-------------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Dear Elizabeth
Thanks for the advice about emotional histrionics of
Teodolina the Goan
fisherwoman.
I am prepared to accept your refusal to answer the
question about ethnic
Do you believe in Maharashtra for the
Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf for the Arabs, England for the
English etc?
Best wishes,
Eddie
==============================================
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Mario Goveia
2006-07-08 16:00:57 UTC
Permalink
--- Elisabeth Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a
Che Guevara sort of way :))
I think we've both elucidated our points and we
won't bore the Goanet reader anymore.
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
Goanet should be: say something nice to someone
with the opposite views as you. He won't then be
able to be harsh anymore ;-)
Mario observes:
OH, PUHLEEEZ!!! [Gag me with a spoon:-))]
I can see Fred preening in front of his mirror with
the Che Guevarra reference, though more so with the
philosophical resemblance in addition to any physical
resemblance :-)) I hope Fred keeps his Che-instincts
under control though, to avoid the same fate, not to
mention the same pathetic political results for those
poor people the original Che Guevarra was supposed to
be "helping".
Fred, you are the nicest guy on Planet Goanet, second
only to the intelligent and beautiful Elizabeth [in
anything but a salwar-khameez (according to her own
testimony)].
There. In one fell swoop and one succinct sentence,
I've insulated myself from any harsh comments by two
of the nicest lefties on Goanet, based on Freds "First
rule of Goanet". Now, I can go enjoy the rest of the
World Cup in peace and tranquillity:-))
If this works, I may try it on the other not-so-nice
lefties:-)) I'll bet Fred's "First rule" will not
work with them though:-))
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-09 03:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,
Don't be so sure I'm a nice lefty :) In the immortal
words of Teddy Roosevelt, I like to "speak softly but
carry a big stick". :))

Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Fred, you are the nicest guy on Planet Goanet,
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
second
only to the intelligent and beautiful Elizabeth [in
anything but a salwar-khameez (according to her own
testimony)].
There. In one fell swoop and one succinct sentence,
I've insulated myself from any harsh comments by two
of the nicest lefties on Goanet, based on Freds
"First
rule of Goanet".
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-09 11:39:56 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elizabeth,

Thank you for conceding, albeit grudgingly, that it is India for the
Indians. On that note, I rest my case.

Best wishes

Eddie Fernandes
=====================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
....
As for, India for Indians? How many people do you know
who want to migrate to India? Anyone you know making counterfeit
documents and passports to sneak into India?

Elisabeth
Vivek
2006-07-04 17:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Dear Floriano,

I think when a person speaks with conviction and from
his heart he forgets political correctness and the
need to be glib with words. Your acerbic style of
speaking is indeed refreshing at times!

There are however some points that I feel i must bring
up. I think that you are unnecessarily harsh on
Parrikar and the Goa BJP at times. I for one sincerely
believe that our ex-CM Parrikar was a genuinely honest
and one of the best CMs we have ever had.Unfortunately
he too speaks and acts with a arrogance that stems
from knowing that he is doing the right thing.

I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.


-vivek





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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 03:34:56 UTC
Permalink
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.

Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------
Post by Vivek
I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn
in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.
-vivek
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-05 16:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice
name for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along
the lines of Gohar maybe.
Elisabeth,
Immigrants will always enrich a population. They see
opportunities that those entrenched in the status quo
do not. The country becomes richer because of that.

Canada is such a place. In fact, it has even included
a tribute to immigrants in its national anthem, which
goes something like this:

O! Canada
My home on native land
True patriot love in all thy sons command
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
I for one believe that the new immigrants in south Goa
will chose better politicians than whats in place now
:-)

Mervyn3.0


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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 14:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.

1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?

2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?

3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.

4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)

5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.

Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.

As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear
a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and
I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran
too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some
derrogatory symbol.
Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some
time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper"
castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for
resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what
fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip
and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the
law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me
know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up
against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-07 02:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
Elisabeth,
People who migrate do so because they are looking for
work. I have yet to hear of any study recording poor
migrants bringing along criminals with them.

On the other hand, I have heard politicians repeating
over and over that immigrants are "bad." Just like
Ambassador PDD, these politicians know that if they
repeat their statements consistently, some people will
begin to believe them.

Mervyn3.0









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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-07 14:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a Che
Guevara sort of way :))

I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
say something nice to someone with the opposite
views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-07 22:26:05 UTC
Permalink
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

=======================================
Folks,

I am more than a little surprised at some of the views expressed by
Elizabeth and Floriano. My questions:

What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?

Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?


Eddie Fernandes
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 03:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,

I wish you wouldn't use emotive words like ethnic
cleansing. If you have read my posts on the matter
than you'll know that I have legitimate concerns about
influxing a huge number of people into a society that
has managed to control its population thus far. If you
care to, you can go through the archives and share
your views on the points I have put forward one by
one, instead of being unduly emotional on account
Floriano's and my views on the matter.

Incidentally, Floriano and I are not the only ones in
Goa, sitting in the thinking mode on a rock at Donna
Paula and wondering about the issue of migrant labour.
These are legitimate concerns voiced very openly and
loudly by a large section of the population in Goa. We
can choose to discuss them or we can choose to ignore
them, but it's an issue that cannot be swept under the
carpet or brushed aside. Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
-------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Folks,
I am more than a little surprised at some of the
views expressed by
What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a
la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?
Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they
also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?
Eddie Fernandes
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-08 11:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elizabeth

Thanks for the advice about emotional histrionics of Teodolina the Goan
fisherwoman.

I am prepared to accept your refusal to answer the question about ethnic
cleansing but please respond to my other question:
Do you believe in Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf for the Arabs, England for the English etc?

Best wishes,

Eddie
==============================================
-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
[mailto:goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org] On Behalf Of Elisabeth Carvalho
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa Suraj and migrant voting rights.

Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 13:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,
What was your question about ethnic cleansing? I just
thought it was a rhetorical statement, and undeserving
of an response. As I pointed out, the ordinary man on
the Goan street is faced with the problems of migrant
labour. Is he to be accused of contemplating genocide
a la Hitler. Or does he deserve answers as to where
all the migrant labour is going to be accommodated,
how it is going to be assimilated into mainstream Goa,
how the depression in daily wage rate is going to be
tackled, how shop-owners are going to be compensated
when hawkers set up shop next to them on the pavement.
Perhaps you should take the time to answer these
questions before you glibly accuse me of ethnic
cleansing.

As for the second part of your question:

The Arabian gulf has always been for the Arabs and it
is one of the reasons it has become so wealthy.
Because it is efficient in managing its guest-workers.

Maharashtra should have been for the Maharashtrans
barring the extent they could accommodate and the
labour supply they needed. Mumbai today is one of
worst cities in the world to live in. It boasts the
biggest slum in Asia not to mention the poorest
standard of living for its other residents. It has
long sought out ways to curtail its migrant
population, including the use of identity cards.
Infact, it is one of their most debated election
issues. Unfortunately for Maharashtra it is trying to
shut the stable door long after the horse has bolted.
I don't wish the same for Goa. Let's have a policy
now.

As for, India for Indians? How many people do you know
who want to migrate to India? Anyone you know making
counterfeit documents and passports to sneak into
India?

England, am not acquainted with its policies and hence
unable to comment. To the best of my knowledge the
only outside labour they've allowed is a trickle from
ex-colonies (that too out of colonial guilt) and now
on account of EU policies, they are battling a
migrancy problem, just like all the other affluent
states in Europe which include Germany and France.

Elisabeth
-------------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Dear Elizabeth
Thanks for the advice about emotional histrionics of
Teodolina the Goan
fisherwoman.
I am prepared to accept your refusal to answer the
question about ethnic
Do you believe in Maharashtra for the
Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf for the Arabs, England for the
English etc?
Best wishes,
Eddie
==============================================
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Mario Goveia
2006-07-08 16:00:57 UTC
Permalink
--- Elisabeth Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a
Che Guevara sort of way :))
I think we've both elucidated our points and we
won't bore the Goanet reader anymore.
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
Goanet should be: say something nice to someone
with the opposite views as you. He won't then be
able to be harsh anymore ;-)
Mario observes:
OH, PUHLEEEZ!!! [Gag me with a spoon:-))]
I can see Fred preening in front of his mirror with
the Che Guevarra reference, though more so with the
philosophical resemblance in addition to any physical
resemblance :-)) I hope Fred keeps his Che-instincts
under control though, to avoid the same fate, not to
mention the same pathetic political results for those
poor people the original Che Guevarra was supposed to
be "helping".
Fred, you are the nicest guy on Planet Goanet, second
only to the intelligent and beautiful Elizabeth [in
anything but a salwar-khameez (according to her own
testimony)].
There. In one fell swoop and one succinct sentence,
I've insulated myself from any harsh comments by two
of the nicest lefties on Goanet, based on Freds "First
rule of Goanet". Now, I can go enjoy the rest of the
World Cup in peace and tranquillity:-))
If this works, I may try it on the other not-so-nice
lefties:-)) I'll bet Fred's "First rule" will not
work with them though:-))
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-09 03:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,
Don't be so sure I'm a nice lefty :) In the immortal
words of Teddy Roosevelt, I like to "speak softly but
carry a big stick". :))

Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Fred, you are the nicest guy on Planet Goanet,
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
second
only to the intelligent and beautiful Elizabeth [in
anything but a salwar-khameez (according to her own
testimony)].
There. In one fell swoop and one succinct sentence,
I've insulated myself from any harsh comments by two
of the nicest lefties on Goanet, based on Freds
"First
rule of Goanet".
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-09 11:39:56 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elizabeth,

Thank you for conceding, albeit grudgingly, that it is India for the
Indians. On that note, I rest my case.

Best wishes

Eddie Fernandes
=====================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
....
As for, India for Indians? How many people do you know
who want to migrate to India? Anyone you know making counterfeit
documents and passports to sneak into India?

Elisabeth
Vivek
2006-07-04 17:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Dear Floriano,

I think when a person speaks with conviction and from
his heart he forgets political correctness and the
need to be glib with words. Your acerbic style of
speaking is indeed refreshing at times!

There are however some points that I feel i must bring
up. I think that you are unnecessarily harsh on
Parrikar and the Goa BJP at times. I for one sincerely
believe that our ex-CM Parrikar was a genuinely honest
and one of the best CMs we have ever had.Unfortunately
he too speaks and acts with a arrogance that stems
from knowing that he is doing the right thing.

I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.


-vivek





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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 03:34:56 UTC
Permalink
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.

Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------
Post by Vivek
I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn
in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.
-vivek
__________________________________________________
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-05 16:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice
name for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along
the lines of Gohar maybe.
Elisabeth,
Immigrants will always enrich a population. They see
opportunities that those entrenched in the status quo
do not. The country becomes richer because of that.

Canada is such a place. In fact, it has even included
a tribute to immigrants in its national anthem, which
goes something like this:

O! Canada
My home on native land
True patriot love in all thy sons command
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
I for one believe that the new immigrants in south Goa
will chose better politicians than whats in place now
:-)

Mervyn3.0


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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 14:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.

1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?

2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?

3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.

4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)

5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.

Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.

As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear
a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and
I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran
too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some
derrogatory symbol.
Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some
time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper"
castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for
resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what
fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip
and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the
law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me
know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up
against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-07 02:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
Elisabeth,
People who migrate do so because they are looking for
work. I have yet to hear of any study recording poor
migrants bringing along criminals with them.

On the other hand, I have heard politicians repeating
over and over that immigrants are "bad." Just like
Ambassador PDD, these politicians know that if they
repeat their statements consistently, some people will
begin to believe them.

Mervyn3.0









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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-07 14:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a Che
Guevara sort of way :))

I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
say something nice to someone with the opposite
views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-07 22:26:05 UTC
Permalink
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

=======================================
Folks,

I am more than a little surprised at some of the views expressed by
Elizabeth and Floriano. My questions:

What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?

Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?


Eddie Fernandes
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 03:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,

I wish you wouldn't use emotive words like ethnic
cleansing. If you have read my posts on the matter
than you'll know that I have legitimate concerns about
influxing a huge number of people into a society that
has managed to control its population thus far. If you
care to, you can go through the archives and share
your views on the points I have put forward one by
one, instead of being unduly emotional on account
Floriano's and my views on the matter.

Incidentally, Floriano and I are not the only ones in
Goa, sitting in the thinking mode on a rock at Donna
Paula and wondering about the issue of migrant labour.
These are legitimate concerns voiced very openly and
loudly by a large section of the population in Goa. We
can choose to discuss them or we can choose to ignore
them, but it's an issue that cannot be swept under the
carpet or brushed aside. Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
-------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Folks,
I am more than a little surprised at some of the
views expressed by
What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a
la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?
Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they
also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?
Eddie Fernandes
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-08 11:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elizabeth

Thanks for the advice about emotional histrionics of Teodolina the Goan
fisherwoman.

I am prepared to accept your refusal to answer the question about ethnic
cleansing but please respond to my other question:
Do you believe in Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf for the Arabs, England for the English etc?

Best wishes,

Eddie
==============================================
-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
[mailto:goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org] On Behalf Of Elisabeth Carvalho
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa Suraj and migrant voting rights.

Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 13:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,
What was your question about ethnic cleansing? I just
thought it was a rhetorical statement, and undeserving
of an response. As I pointed out, the ordinary man on
the Goan street is faced with the problems of migrant
labour. Is he to be accused of contemplating genocide
a la Hitler. Or does he deserve answers as to where
all the migrant labour is going to be accommodated,
how it is going to be assimilated into mainstream Goa,
how the depression in daily wage rate is going to be
tackled, how shop-owners are going to be compensated
when hawkers set up shop next to them on the pavement.
Perhaps you should take the time to answer these
questions before you glibly accuse me of ethnic
cleansing.

As for the second part of your question:

The Arabian gulf has always been for the Arabs and it
is one of the reasons it has become so wealthy.
Because it is efficient in managing its guest-workers.

Maharashtra should have been for the Maharashtrans
barring the extent they could accommodate and the
labour supply they needed. Mumbai today is one of
worst cities in the world to live in. It boasts the
biggest slum in Asia not to mention the poorest
standard of living for its other residents. It has
long sought out ways to curtail its migrant
population, including the use of identity cards.
Infact, it is one of their most debated election
issues. Unfortunately for Maharashtra it is trying to
shut the stable door long after the horse has bolted.
I don't wish the same for Goa. Let's have a policy
now.

As for, India for Indians? How many people do you know
who want to migrate to India? Anyone you know making
counterfeit documents and passports to sneak into
India?

England, am not acquainted with its policies and hence
unable to comment. To the best of my knowledge the
only outside labour they've allowed is a trickle from
ex-colonies (that too out of colonial guilt) and now
on account of EU policies, they are battling a
migrancy problem, just like all the other affluent
states in Europe which include Germany and France.

Elisabeth
-------------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Dear Elizabeth
Thanks for the advice about emotional histrionics of
Teodolina the Goan
fisherwoman.
I am prepared to accept your refusal to answer the
question about ethnic
Do you believe in Maharashtra for the
Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf for the Arabs, England for the
English etc?
Best wishes,
Eddie
==============================================
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Mario Goveia
2006-07-08 16:00:57 UTC
Permalink
--- Elisabeth Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a
Che Guevara sort of way :))
I think we've both elucidated our points and we
won't bore the Goanet reader anymore.
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
Goanet should be: say something nice to someone
with the opposite views as you. He won't then be
able to be harsh anymore ;-)
Mario observes:
OH, PUHLEEEZ!!! [Gag me with a spoon:-))]
I can see Fred preening in front of his mirror with
the Che Guevarra reference, though more so with the
philosophical resemblance in addition to any physical
resemblance :-)) I hope Fred keeps his Che-instincts
under control though, to avoid the same fate, not to
mention the same pathetic political results for those
poor people the original Che Guevarra was supposed to
be "helping".
Fred, you are the nicest guy on Planet Goanet, second
only to the intelligent and beautiful Elizabeth [in
anything but a salwar-khameez (according to her own
testimony)].
There. In one fell swoop and one succinct sentence,
I've insulated myself from any harsh comments by two
of the nicest lefties on Goanet, based on Freds "First
rule of Goanet". Now, I can go enjoy the rest of the
World Cup in peace and tranquillity:-))
If this works, I may try it on the other not-so-nice
lefties:-)) I'll bet Fred's "First rule" will not
work with them though:-))
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-09 03:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,
Don't be so sure I'm a nice lefty :) In the immortal
words of Teddy Roosevelt, I like to "speak softly but
carry a big stick". :))

Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Fred, you are the nicest guy on Planet Goanet,
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
second
only to the intelligent and beautiful Elizabeth [in
anything but a salwar-khameez (according to her own
testimony)].
There. In one fell swoop and one succinct sentence,
I've insulated myself from any harsh comments by two
of the nicest lefties on Goanet, based on Freds
"First
rule of Goanet".
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-09 11:39:56 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elizabeth,

Thank you for conceding, albeit grudgingly, that it is India for the
Indians. On that note, I rest my case.

Best wishes

Eddie Fernandes
=====================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
....
As for, India for Indians? How many people do you know
who want to migrate to India? Anyone you know making counterfeit
documents and passports to sneak into India?

Elisabeth
Vivek
2006-07-04 17:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Dear Floriano,

I think when a person speaks with conviction and from
his heart he forgets political correctness and the
need to be glib with words. Your acerbic style of
speaking is indeed refreshing at times!

There are however some points that I feel i must bring
up. I think that you are unnecessarily harsh on
Parrikar and the Goa BJP at times. I for one sincerely
believe that our ex-CM Parrikar was a genuinely honest
and one of the best CMs we have ever had.Unfortunately
he too speaks and acts with a arrogance that stems
from knowing that he is doing the right thing.

I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.


-vivek





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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 03:34:56 UTC
Permalink
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.

Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------
Post by Vivek
I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn
in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.
-vivek
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-05 16:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice
name for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along
the lines of Gohar maybe.
Elisabeth,
Immigrants will always enrich a population. They see
opportunities that those entrenched in the status quo
do not. The country becomes richer because of that.

Canada is such a place. In fact, it has even included
a tribute to immigrants in its national anthem, which
goes something like this:

O! Canada
My home on native land
True patriot love in all thy sons command
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
I for one believe that the new immigrants in south Goa
will chose better politicians than whats in place now
:-)

Mervyn3.0


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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 14:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.

1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?

2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?

3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.

4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)

5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.

Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.

As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear
a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and
I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran
too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some
derrogatory symbol.
Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some
time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper"
castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for
resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what
fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip
and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the
law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me
know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up
against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-07 02:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
Elisabeth,
People who migrate do so because they are looking for
work. I have yet to hear of any study recording poor
migrants bringing along criminals with them.

On the other hand, I have heard politicians repeating
over and over that immigrants are "bad." Just like
Ambassador PDD, these politicians know that if they
repeat their statements consistently, some people will
begin to believe them.

Mervyn3.0









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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-07 14:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a Che
Guevara sort of way :))

I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
say something nice to someone with the opposite
views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)
__________________________________________________
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-07 22:26:05 UTC
Permalink
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

=======================================
Folks,

I am more than a little surprised at some of the views expressed by
Elizabeth and Floriano. My questions:

What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?

Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?


Eddie Fernandes
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 03:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,

I wish you wouldn't use emotive words like ethnic
cleansing. If you have read my posts on the matter
than you'll know that I have legitimate concerns about
influxing a huge number of people into a society that
has managed to control its population thus far. If you
care to, you can go through the archives and share
your views on the points I have put forward one by
one, instead of being unduly emotional on account
Floriano's and my views on the matter.

Incidentally, Floriano and I are not the only ones in
Goa, sitting in the thinking mode on a rock at Donna
Paula and wondering about the issue of migrant labour.
These are legitimate concerns voiced very openly and
loudly by a large section of the population in Goa. We
can choose to discuss them or we can choose to ignore
them, but it's an issue that cannot be swept under the
carpet or brushed aside. Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
-------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Folks,
I am more than a little surprised at some of the
views expressed by
What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a
la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?
Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they
also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?
Eddie Fernandes
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-08 11:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elizabeth

Thanks for the advice about emotional histrionics of Teodolina the Goan
fisherwoman.

I am prepared to accept your refusal to answer the question about ethnic
cleansing but please respond to my other question:
Do you believe in Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf for the Arabs, England for the English etc?

Best wishes,

Eddie
==============================================
-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
[mailto:goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org] On Behalf Of Elisabeth Carvalho
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa Suraj and migrant voting rights.

Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 13:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,
What was your question about ethnic cleansing? I just
thought it was a rhetorical statement, and undeserving
of an response. As I pointed out, the ordinary man on
the Goan street is faced with the problems of migrant
labour. Is he to be accused of contemplating genocide
a la Hitler. Or does he deserve answers as to where
all the migrant labour is going to be accommodated,
how it is going to be assimilated into mainstream Goa,
how the depression in daily wage rate is going to be
tackled, how shop-owners are going to be compensated
when hawkers set up shop next to them on the pavement.
Perhaps you should take the time to answer these
questions before you glibly accuse me of ethnic
cleansing.

As for the second part of your question:

The Arabian gulf has always been for the Arabs and it
is one of the reasons it has become so wealthy.
Because it is efficient in managing its guest-workers.

Maharashtra should have been for the Maharashtrans
barring the extent they could accommodate and the
labour supply they needed. Mumbai today is one of
worst cities in the world to live in. It boasts the
biggest slum in Asia not to mention the poorest
standard of living for its other residents. It has
long sought out ways to curtail its migrant
population, including the use of identity cards.
Infact, it is one of their most debated election
issues. Unfortunately for Maharashtra it is trying to
shut the stable door long after the horse has bolted.
I don't wish the same for Goa. Let's have a policy
now.

As for, India for Indians? How many people do you know
who want to migrate to India? Anyone you know making
counterfeit documents and passports to sneak into
India?

England, am not acquainted with its policies and hence
unable to comment. To the best of my knowledge the
only outside labour they've allowed is a trickle from
ex-colonies (that too out of colonial guilt) and now
on account of EU policies, they are battling a
migrancy problem, just like all the other affluent
states in Europe which include Germany and France.

Elisabeth
-------------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Dear Elizabeth
Thanks for the advice about emotional histrionics of
Teodolina the Goan
fisherwoman.
I am prepared to accept your refusal to answer the
question about ethnic
Do you believe in Maharashtra for the
Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf for the Arabs, England for the
English etc?
Best wishes,
Eddie
==============================================
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Mario Goveia
2006-07-08 16:00:57 UTC
Permalink
--- Elisabeth Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a
Che Guevara sort of way :))
I think we've both elucidated our points and we
won't bore the Goanet reader anymore.
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
Goanet should be: say something nice to someone
with the opposite views as you. He won't then be
able to be harsh anymore ;-)
Mario observes:
OH, PUHLEEEZ!!! [Gag me with a spoon:-))]
I can see Fred preening in front of his mirror with
the Che Guevarra reference, though more so with the
philosophical resemblance in addition to any physical
resemblance :-)) I hope Fred keeps his Che-instincts
under control though, to avoid the same fate, not to
mention the same pathetic political results for those
poor people the original Che Guevarra was supposed to
be "helping".
Fred, you are the nicest guy on Planet Goanet, second
only to the intelligent and beautiful Elizabeth [in
anything but a salwar-khameez (according to her own
testimony)].
There. In one fell swoop and one succinct sentence,
I've insulated myself from any harsh comments by two
of the nicest lefties on Goanet, based on Freds "First
rule of Goanet". Now, I can go enjoy the rest of the
World Cup in peace and tranquillity:-))
If this works, I may try it on the other not-so-nice
lefties:-)) I'll bet Fred's "First rule" will not
work with them though:-))
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-09 03:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,
Don't be so sure I'm a nice lefty :) In the immortal
words of Teddy Roosevelt, I like to "speak softly but
carry a big stick". :))

Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Fred, you are the nicest guy on Planet Goanet,
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
second
only to the intelligent and beautiful Elizabeth [in
anything but a salwar-khameez (according to her own
testimony)].
There. In one fell swoop and one succinct sentence,
I've insulated myself from any harsh comments by two
of the nicest lefties on Goanet, based on Freds
"First
rule of Goanet".
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-09 11:39:56 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elizabeth,

Thank you for conceding, albeit grudgingly, that it is India for the
Indians. On that note, I rest my case.

Best wishes

Eddie Fernandes
=====================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
....
As for, India for Indians? How many people do you know
who want to migrate to India? Anyone you know making counterfeit
documents and passports to sneak into India?

Elisabeth
Vivek
2006-07-04 17:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Dear Floriano,

I think when a person speaks with conviction and from
his heart he forgets political correctness and the
need to be glib with words. Your acerbic style of
speaking is indeed refreshing at times!

There are however some points that I feel i must bring
up. I think that you are unnecessarily harsh on
Parrikar and the Goa BJP at times. I for one sincerely
believe that our ex-CM Parrikar was a genuinely honest
and one of the best CMs we have ever had.Unfortunately
he too speaks and acts with a arrogance that stems
from knowing that he is doing the right thing.

I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.


-vivek





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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 03:34:56 UTC
Permalink
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.

Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------
Post by Vivek
I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn
in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.
-vivek
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-05 16:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice
name for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along
the lines of Gohar maybe.
Elisabeth,
Immigrants will always enrich a population. They see
opportunities that those entrenched in the status quo
do not. The country becomes richer because of that.

Canada is such a place. In fact, it has even included
a tribute to immigrants in its national anthem, which
goes something like this:

O! Canada
My home on native land
True patriot love in all thy sons command
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
I for one believe that the new immigrants in south Goa
will chose better politicians than whats in place now
:-)

Mervyn3.0


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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 14:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.

1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?

2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?

3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.

4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)

5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.

Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.

As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear
a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and
I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran
too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some
derrogatory symbol.
Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some
time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper"
castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for
resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what
fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip
and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the
law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me
know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up
against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-07 02:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
Elisabeth,
People who migrate do so because they are looking for
work. I have yet to hear of any study recording poor
migrants bringing along criminals with them.

On the other hand, I have heard politicians repeating
over and over that immigrants are "bad." Just like
Ambassador PDD, these politicians know that if they
repeat their statements consistently, some people will
begin to believe them.

Mervyn3.0









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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-07 14:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a Che
Guevara sort of way :))

I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
say something nice to someone with the opposite
views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-07 22:26:05 UTC
Permalink
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

=======================================
Folks,

I am more than a little surprised at some of the views expressed by
Elizabeth and Floriano. My questions:

What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?

Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?


Eddie Fernandes
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 03:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,

I wish you wouldn't use emotive words like ethnic
cleansing. If you have read my posts on the matter
than you'll know that I have legitimate concerns about
influxing a huge number of people into a society that
has managed to control its population thus far. If you
care to, you can go through the archives and share
your views on the points I have put forward one by
one, instead of being unduly emotional on account
Floriano's and my views on the matter.

Incidentally, Floriano and I are not the only ones in
Goa, sitting in the thinking mode on a rock at Donna
Paula and wondering about the issue of migrant labour.
These are legitimate concerns voiced very openly and
loudly by a large section of the population in Goa. We
can choose to discuss them or we can choose to ignore
them, but it's an issue that cannot be swept under the
carpet or brushed aside. Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
-------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Folks,
I am more than a little surprised at some of the
views expressed by
What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a
la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?
Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they
also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?
Eddie Fernandes
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-08 11:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elizabeth

Thanks for the advice about emotional histrionics of Teodolina the Goan
fisherwoman.

I am prepared to accept your refusal to answer the question about ethnic
cleansing but please respond to my other question:
Do you believe in Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf for the Arabs, England for the English etc?

Best wishes,

Eddie
==============================================
-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
[mailto:goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org] On Behalf Of Elisabeth Carvalho
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa Suraj and migrant voting rights.

Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 13:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,
What was your question about ethnic cleansing? I just
thought it was a rhetorical statement, and undeserving
of an response. As I pointed out, the ordinary man on
the Goan street is faced with the problems of migrant
labour. Is he to be accused of contemplating genocide
a la Hitler. Or does he deserve answers as to where
all the migrant labour is going to be accommodated,
how it is going to be assimilated into mainstream Goa,
how the depression in daily wage rate is going to be
tackled, how shop-owners are going to be compensated
when hawkers set up shop next to them on the pavement.
Perhaps you should take the time to answer these
questions before you glibly accuse me of ethnic
cleansing.

As for the second part of your question:

The Arabian gulf has always been for the Arabs and it
is one of the reasons it has become so wealthy.
Because it is efficient in managing its guest-workers.

Maharashtra should have been for the Maharashtrans
barring the extent they could accommodate and the
labour supply they needed. Mumbai today is one of
worst cities in the world to live in. It boasts the
biggest slum in Asia not to mention the poorest
standard of living for its other residents. It has
long sought out ways to curtail its migrant
population, including the use of identity cards.
Infact, it is one of their most debated election
issues. Unfortunately for Maharashtra it is trying to
shut the stable door long after the horse has bolted.
I don't wish the same for Goa. Let's have a policy
now.

As for, India for Indians? How many people do you know
who want to migrate to India? Anyone you know making
counterfeit documents and passports to sneak into
India?

England, am not acquainted with its policies and hence
unable to comment. To the best of my knowledge the
only outside labour they've allowed is a trickle from
ex-colonies (that too out of colonial guilt) and now
on account of EU policies, they are battling a
migrancy problem, just like all the other affluent
states in Europe which include Germany and France.

Elisabeth
-------------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Dear Elizabeth
Thanks for the advice about emotional histrionics of
Teodolina the Goan
fisherwoman.
I am prepared to accept your refusal to answer the
question about ethnic
Do you believe in Maharashtra for the
Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf for the Arabs, England for the
English etc?
Best wishes,
Eddie
==============================================
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Mario Goveia
2006-07-08 16:00:57 UTC
Permalink
--- Elisabeth Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a
Che Guevara sort of way :))
I think we've both elucidated our points and we
won't bore the Goanet reader anymore.
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
Goanet should be: say something nice to someone
with the opposite views as you. He won't then be
able to be harsh anymore ;-)
Mario observes:
OH, PUHLEEEZ!!! [Gag me with a spoon:-))]
I can see Fred preening in front of his mirror with
the Che Guevarra reference, though more so with the
philosophical resemblance in addition to any physical
resemblance :-)) I hope Fred keeps his Che-instincts
under control though, to avoid the same fate, not to
mention the same pathetic political results for those
poor people the original Che Guevarra was supposed to
be "helping".
Fred, you are the nicest guy on Planet Goanet, second
only to the intelligent and beautiful Elizabeth [in
anything but a salwar-khameez (according to her own
testimony)].
There. In one fell swoop and one succinct sentence,
I've insulated myself from any harsh comments by two
of the nicest lefties on Goanet, based on Freds "First
rule of Goanet". Now, I can go enjoy the rest of the
World Cup in peace and tranquillity:-))
If this works, I may try it on the other not-so-nice
lefties:-)) I'll bet Fred's "First rule" will not
work with them though:-))
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-09 03:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,
Don't be so sure I'm a nice lefty :) In the immortal
words of Teddy Roosevelt, I like to "speak softly but
carry a big stick". :))

Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Fred, you are the nicest guy on Planet Goanet,
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
second
only to the intelligent and beautiful Elizabeth [in
anything but a salwar-khameez (according to her own
testimony)].
There. In one fell swoop and one succinct sentence,
I've insulated myself from any harsh comments by two
of the nicest lefties on Goanet, based on Freds
"First
rule of Goanet".
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-09 11:39:56 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elizabeth,

Thank you for conceding, albeit grudgingly, that it is India for the
Indians. On that note, I rest my case.

Best wishes

Eddie Fernandes
=====================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
....
As for, India for Indians? How many people do you know
who want to migrate to India? Anyone you know making counterfeit
documents and passports to sneak into India?

Elisabeth
Vivek
2006-07-04 17:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Dear Floriano,

I think when a person speaks with conviction and from
his heart he forgets political correctness and the
need to be glib with words. Your acerbic style of
speaking is indeed refreshing at times!

There are however some points that I feel i must bring
up. I think that you are unnecessarily harsh on
Parrikar and the Goa BJP at times. I for one sincerely
believe that our ex-CM Parrikar was a genuinely honest
and one of the best CMs we have ever had.Unfortunately
he too speaks and acts with a arrogance that stems
from knowing that he is doing the right thing.

I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.


-vivek





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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 03:34:56 UTC
Permalink
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.

Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------
Post by Vivek
I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn
in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.
-vivek
__________________________________________________
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-05 16:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice
name for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along
the lines of Gohar maybe.
Elisabeth,
Immigrants will always enrich a population. They see
opportunities that those entrenched in the status quo
do not. The country becomes richer because of that.

Canada is such a place. In fact, it has even included
a tribute to immigrants in its national anthem, which
goes something like this:

O! Canada
My home on native land
True patriot love in all thy sons command
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
I for one believe that the new immigrants in south Goa
will chose better politicians than whats in place now
:-)

Mervyn3.0


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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 14:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.

1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?

2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?

3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.

4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)

5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.

Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.

As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear
a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and
I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran
too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some
derrogatory symbol.
Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some
time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper"
castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for
resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what
fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip
and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the
law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me
know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up
against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-07 02:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
Elisabeth,
People who migrate do so because they are looking for
work. I have yet to hear of any study recording poor
migrants bringing along criminals with them.

On the other hand, I have heard politicians repeating
over and over that immigrants are "bad." Just like
Ambassador PDD, these politicians know that if they
repeat their statements consistently, some people will
begin to believe them.

Mervyn3.0









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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-07 14:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a Che
Guevara sort of way :))

I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
say something nice to someone with the opposite
views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-07 22:26:05 UTC
Permalink
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

=======================================
Folks,

I am more than a little surprised at some of the views expressed by
Elizabeth and Floriano. My questions:

What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?

Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?


Eddie Fernandes
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 03:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,

I wish you wouldn't use emotive words like ethnic
cleansing. If you have read my posts on the matter
than you'll know that I have legitimate concerns about
influxing a huge number of people into a society that
has managed to control its population thus far. If you
care to, you can go through the archives and share
your views on the points I have put forward one by
one, instead of being unduly emotional on account
Floriano's and my views on the matter.

Incidentally, Floriano and I are not the only ones in
Goa, sitting in the thinking mode on a rock at Donna
Paula and wondering about the issue of migrant labour.
These are legitimate concerns voiced very openly and
loudly by a large section of the population in Goa. We
can choose to discuss them or we can choose to ignore
them, but it's an issue that cannot be swept under the
carpet or brushed aside. Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
-------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Folks,
I am more than a little surprised at some of the
views expressed by
What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a
la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?
Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they
also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?
Eddie Fernandes
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-08 11:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elizabeth

Thanks for the advice about emotional histrionics of Teodolina the Goan
fisherwoman.

I am prepared to accept your refusal to answer the question about ethnic
cleansing but please respond to my other question:
Do you believe in Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf for the Arabs, England for the English etc?

Best wishes,

Eddie
==============================================
-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
[mailto:goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org] On Behalf Of Elisabeth Carvalho
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa Suraj and migrant voting rights.

Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 13:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,
What was your question about ethnic cleansing? I just
thought it was a rhetorical statement, and undeserving
of an response. As I pointed out, the ordinary man on
the Goan street is faced with the problems of migrant
labour. Is he to be accused of contemplating genocide
a la Hitler. Or does he deserve answers as to where
all the migrant labour is going to be accommodated,
how it is going to be assimilated into mainstream Goa,
how the depression in daily wage rate is going to be
tackled, how shop-owners are going to be compensated
when hawkers set up shop next to them on the pavement.
Perhaps you should take the time to answer these
questions before you glibly accuse me of ethnic
cleansing.

As for the second part of your question:

The Arabian gulf has always been for the Arabs and it
is one of the reasons it has become so wealthy.
Because it is efficient in managing its guest-workers.

Maharashtra should have been for the Maharashtrans
barring the extent they could accommodate and the
labour supply they needed. Mumbai today is one of
worst cities in the world to live in. It boasts the
biggest slum in Asia not to mention the poorest
standard of living for its other residents. It has
long sought out ways to curtail its migrant
population, including the use of identity cards.
Infact, it is one of their most debated election
issues. Unfortunately for Maharashtra it is trying to
shut the stable door long after the horse has bolted.
I don't wish the same for Goa. Let's have a policy
now.

As for, India for Indians? How many people do you know
who want to migrate to India? Anyone you know making
counterfeit documents and passports to sneak into
India?

England, am not acquainted with its policies and hence
unable to comment. To the best of my knowledge the
only outside labour they've allowed is a trickle from
ex-colonies (that too out of colonial guilt) and now
on account of EU policies, they are battling a
migrancy problem, just like all the other affluent
states in Europe which include Germany and France.

Elisabeth
-------------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Dear Elizabeth
Thanks for the advice about emotional histrionics of
Teodolina the Goan
fisherwoman.
I am prepared to accept your refusal to answer the
question about ethnic
Do you believe in Maharashtra for the
Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf for the Arabs, England for the
English etc?
Best wishes,
Eddie
==============================================
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Mario Goveia
2006-07-08 16:00:57 UTC
Permalink
--- Elisabeth Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a
Che Guevara sort of way :))
I think we've both elucidated our points and we
won't bore the Goanet reader anymore.
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
Goanet should be: say something nice to someone
with the opposite views as you. He won't then be
able to be harsh anymore ;-)
Mario observes:
OH, PUHLEEEZ!!! [Gag me with a spoon:-))]
I can see Fred preening in front of his mirror with
the Che Guevarra reference, though more so with the
philosophical resemblance in addition to any physical
resemblance :-)) I hope Fred keeps his Che-instincts
under control though, to avoid the same fate, not to
mention the same pathetic political results for those
poor people the original Che Guevarra was supposed to
be "helping".
Fred, you are the nicest guy on Planet Goanet, second
only to the intelligent and beautiful Elizabeth [in
anything but a salwar-khameez (according to her own
testimony)].
There. In one fell swoop and one succinct sentence,
I've insulated myself from any harsh comments by two
of the nicest lefties on Goanet, based on Freds "First
rule of Goanet". Now, I can go enjoy the rest of the
World Cup in peace and tranquillity:-))
If this works, I may try it on the other not-so-nice
lefties:-)) I'll bet Fred's "First rule" will not
work with them though:-))
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-09 03:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,
Don't be so sure I'm a nice lefty :) In the immortal
words of Teddy Roosevelt, I like to "speak softly but
carry a big stick". :))

Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Fred, you are the nicest guy on Planet Goanet,
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
second
only to the intelligent and beautiful Elizabeth [in
anything but a salwar-khameez (according to her own
testimony)].
There. In one fell swoop and one succinct sentence,
I've insulated myself from any harsh comments by two
of the nicest lefties on Goanet, based on Freds
"First
rule of Goanet".
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-09 11:39:56 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elizabeth,

Thank you for conceding, albeit grudgingly, that it is India for the
Indians. On that note, I rest my case.

Best wishes

Eddie Fernandes
=====================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
....
As for, India for Indians? How many people do you know
who want to migrate to India? Anyone you know making counterfeit
documents and passports to sneak into India?

Elisabeth
Vivek
2006-07-04 17:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Dear Floriano,

I think when a person speaks with conviction and from
his heart he forgets political correctness and the
need to be glib with words. Your acerbic style of
speaking is indeed refreshing at times!

There are however some points that I feel i must bring
up. I think that you are unnecessarily harsh on
Parrikar and the Goa BJP at times. I for one sincerely
believe that our ex-CM Parrikar was a genuinely honest
and one of the best CMs we have ever had.Unfortunately
he too speaks and acts with a arrogance that stems
from knowing that he is doing the right thing.

I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.


-vivek





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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 03:34:56 UTC
Permalink
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
lines of Gohar maybe.

Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------
Post by Vivek
I also feel tha the Goa for Goans theme is very
dangerous and your party could end up being a pawn
in
the hands of christian bigots who have nothing to do
with Goa but would like to further a communal agenda
at your cost.
-vivek
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-05 16:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
the current vein. We might as well choose a nice
name for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along
the lines of Gohar maybe.
Elisabeth,
Immigrants will always enrich a population. They see
opportunities that those entrenched in the status quo
do not. The country becomes richer because of that.

Canada is such a place. In fact, it has even included
a tribute to immigrants in its national anthem, which
goes something like this:

O! Canada
My home on native land
True patriot love in all thy sons command
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
I for one believe that the new immigrants in south Goa
will chose better politicians than whats in place now
:-)

Mervyn3.0


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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-05 14:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I'm glad you've responded because now at last I will
find some informed answers (from an intelligent
person) to questions that plague me. First of all, let
me say that I understand your viewpoint and I am open
to it. Let me put forward my "issues" (for want of a
neutral word) with the matter of unchecked migration
into Goa.

1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
industrious in managing its goods and services but
because it has managed the other part of the equation,
which is its population. Into this mix is going to
emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
demographics?

2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
population that is fairly educated and relatively
prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
the two or are we building parallel societies?

3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
well bid farewell to our tourism industry.

4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)

5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
happens with concerted training, education and a
labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
impoverished states.

Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
organisations that serve the greater good. More often
than not they are powered by vested interests that
serve pockets of society. Let the interests of Goans
be first in Goa.

As for your last comment about Goan immigrants and
adopted homelands, I wouldn't know. I am not an
immigrant. My feet and tax money are firmly planted in
Goa.
Elisabeth
---------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear
a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and
I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran
too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some
derrogatory symbol.
Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some
time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper"
castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for
resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what
fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip
and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the
law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me
know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up
against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-07 02:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
Elisabeth,
People who migrate do so because they are looking for
work. I have yet to hear of any study recording poor
migrants bringing along criminals with them.

On the other hand, I have heard politicians repeating
over and over that immigrants are "bad." Just like
Ambassador PDD, these politicians know that if they
repeat their statements consistently, some people will
begin to believe them.

Mervyn3.0









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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-07 14:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
Did I also tell you that I find you handsome in a Che
Guevara sort of way :))

I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

Elisabeth
----------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Thank you for massaging my ego! The first rule of
say something nice to someone with the opposite
views as you. He won't
then be able to be harsh anymore ;-)
__________________________________________________
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Eddie Fernandes
2006-07-07 22:26:05 UTC
Permalink
From: Elisabeth Carvalho
I think we've both elucidated our points and we won't
bore the Goanet reader anymore.

=======================================
Folks,

I am more than a little surprised at some of the views expressed by
Elizabeth and Floriano. My questions:

What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?

Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?


Eddie Fernandes
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-08 03:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eddie,

I wish you wouldn't use emotive words like ethnic
cleansing. If you have read my posts on the matter
than you'll know that I have legitimate concerns about
influxing a huge number of people into a society that
has managed to control its population thus far. If you
care to, you can go through the archives and share
your views on the points I have put forward one by
one, instead of being unduly emotional on account
Floriano's and my views on the matter.

Incidentally, Floriano and I are not the only ones in
Goa, sitting in the thinking mode on a rock at Donna
Paula and wondering about the issue of migrant labour.
These are legitimate concerns voiced very openly and
loudly by a large section of the population in Goa. We
can choose to discuss them or we can choose to ignore
them, but it's an issue that cannot be swept under the
carpet or brushed aside. Emotional histrionics we can
leave to Teodolina who doesn't manage to sell her fish
by five o'clock at the tinto.

Elisabeth
-------------------------
Post by Eddie Fernandes
Folks,
I am more than a little surprised at some of the
views expressed by
What form of ethnic cleansing would they favour - a
la Hitler, Yugoslav,
Rwanda, Darfur or some other?
Since they believe in Goa for the Goans, do they
also believe in
Maharashtra for the Maharashtrians, India for the
Indians, Arabian Gulf
for the Arabs, England for the English etc?
Eddie Fernandes
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http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
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