Discussion:
[Goanet] CM & GPCC Chief return from New Delhi
godfrey gonsalves
2006-08-12 18:14:04 UTC
Permalink
As the State celebrates the death aniversary of Goa's
first Chief Minister late Mr Dayanand (Bhausaheb)
Bandodkar the latest developments on the movement for
official status to Konkani in Roman script --- is
that the Chief Minister Mr Pratapsing Raoji Rane and
the Goa Pradesh Congress Committee Chief Mr Ravi
Sitaram Naik after a short stay in New Delhi have left
for Mumbai according to sources in New Delhi.


Meanwhile there is a need to revamp the entire Board
of official and non official members of the Goa
Advisory Board for the effective implementation of the
Goa Daman and Diu official Languages Act 1987
viz;constituted on 10.10.2005, 13.01.2006, 22.6.2006
only after the agitation of the protogonists of
Konkani only in the Roman script took shape i.e since
June 2005.

It is seen that the Board is constituted of two thirds
majority non official members who are STAUNCH
protoganists of Konkani only in Devanagari script viz;

a) Mr Chandrakant Keni
b) Mr Pundalik Naik
c) Mr Dilip Borcar (of Agacaim )
d) Mr Shivdas N (Naik)
e) Mr Damodar Mauzo
f) Mr Vishnu Surya Wagh included on 22.6.2006
g) Mr Shambu Bhau Bandekar ex MLA Canacona -do-

other two members (included on 13.1.2006) apparently
to represent
i) those Goans whose mother tongue is Konkani but
write in Marathi and
ii) those non-Goans who have settled in the Novas
Conquistas talukas before and after liberation who
speak and write Marathi
a) Mr Gurudas Sawal Gomantak Marathi Academy
b) Mr Narendra Azgaonkar of Camurlim

and only two others who have not been vocal on the
demand for official language status to Konkani in
Roman script;
a) Mr Simon D Souza ex Dy Speaker (has an eye on the
Vasco da Gama Assembly Constituency seat in the
forthcoming elections)
b) Mr Olivinho Gomes ex Goa University ( has some
disputed financial dues to be cleared by Goa
Government)

Similarly the Advisory Board for Konkani of the
Sahitya Academy at New Delhi is heavily loaded in
favour of the protoganists of Konkani ONLY in
Devanagari script and hence needs to be revamped to
constitute it with both the factions --- protoganists
of ONLY ONE SCRIPT ONE LANGUAGE and UNITY IN LANGUAGE
AND DIVERSITY IN SCRIPT

The Chief Minister Mr Pratapsing Raoji Rane being the
Minister for Official Languages is also aware that the
Statement of Objects and Reason of the Goa Daman and
Diu official Language Act --- clearly states that 95%
of the people of Goa speak Konkani ----which lays to
rest the fact that none can temper the Official
Language Act 1987 but an amendment to incorporate in
section 2c "/Roman script" will not alter the
principal act, in any way.


In any way after the grant of Statehood to Goa and
segregating the two overland territories of Daman and
Diu the Act needs to be amended in any case as
proposed in 2000 by the ex CM Mr Manohar Parrikar.

Therefore the protoganists for Konkani in Roman script
should channelise their energies ONLY seeing that the
ninteen year old justice done to Konkani in Roman
script is settled even if it means unseating the
coalition Government in power.

They should also be clear in their minds that the
present agitation ---- which has no numbers in its
favour is for --- doing away with the introduction of
one subject ENGLISH in the Primary section Marathi
medium schools. This is because most of these persons
send their wards to English medium schools and are
only interested to deprive the low income groups to
learn the "language of the stomach English" as it
would also dilute their vote bank -- remember if there
is a politician at one end there ought to be a fool at
the other hence if all are educated and literate the
vote banks are affected and politicians suffer the
threat of defeat.

The young turks rebels should take up this issue and
muster the courage to remedy this injustice now or
never.

Meanwhile the local press has been distorting the
SCRIPT ISSUE as a LANGUAGE ISSUE and fomenting a
divide for reasons unknown.

After Independence day -- the protoganists for Konkani
in Roman script will demand from each of the MLAs to
make their stands clear in writing. They should not
try to make noises behind the skirts of women or
behind the curtains of the GPCC office or the CLP but
stand by the courage of conviction for whatever they
stand.

In any case they should remember that as lawmakers and
representatives of the people they should reflect in
their duties the will of the people and not of their
own.

GODFREY J I GONSALVES
BORDA MARGAO GOA
9822158584










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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-08-13 03:34:15 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dr Cornel,

I am gathering some information for a project and I
was wondering if you could share with us your personal
perspective on the assimilation of the Indian and
Pakistani Muslims in the UK.

Instead of confining this request to a personal mail,
I've put it out on Goanet, as a personal perspective
might be of interest to this world-wide audience,
especially in light of recent events.

In a span of less than 2 years, UK born second
generation Muslim have been involved in acts of
terrorism or in the plotting stages of such acts. The
recent one being the foiled plot to blow up US
transatlantic passenger jets.

I am keen to know why the Pakistani Muslim feels
disenfranchised from mainstream UK, and what is his
attraction to this ideology of terror. And how does
the Indian Muslim differ in this regard. Afterall, we
have yet to hear of any Indian Muslims involved in
such activities.

Thank you,
Elisabeth


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Gabe Menezes
2006-08-13 10:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Dr Cornel,
I am gathering some information for a project and I
was wondering if you could share with us your personal
perspective on the assimilation of the Indian and
Pakistani Muslims in the UK.
Instead of confining this request to a personal mail,
I've put it out on Goanet, as a personal perspective
might be of interest to this world-wide audience,
especially in light of recent events.
In a span of less than 2 years, UK born second
generation Muslim have been involved in acts of
terrorism or in the plotting stages of such acts. The
recent one being the foiled plot to blow up US
transatlantic passenger jets.
I am keen to know why the Pakistani Muslim feels
disenfranchised from mainstream UK, and what is his
attraction to this ideology of terror. And how does
the Indian Muslim differ in this regard. Afterall, we
have yet to hear of any Indian Muslims involved in
such activities.
Thank you,
Elisabeth
Dear Elizabeth,

I shall leave Cornel, to expound on this. Many of our Citizens have
concluded that the double standards, employed by our Government, is
one of the main reasons.

They see the atrocities committed in the Middle East and the emails
and pictures circulated by blogs, which in many cases are made to fit
the occasion.

One of the July suicide bombers left a video clip to state his girpe.
This of course does not justify one iota his actions but can, to an
extent, explain what you seek.

Muslim Members of Parliament along with Muslim members of the Lords,
took up a full page advertisement in some of yesterday's newspapers,
which in effect bears out what the majority of the Citizens in our
Country are espousing. The U.K. Foreign policy stinks!

The Government is in isolation and has its own agenda!
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
cornel
2006-08-13 19:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Elisabeth
Thanks for you very interesting question about what prompts
Pakistani originating Muslims to adopt terrorist behaviour/action, unlike
the Indian originating Muslims in London.

The question is complex and I do not claim certainty about my interpretation
below. However, it is an issue that has come up among my academic
colleagues.

LINKAGES: Muslims of Pakistani origin.
Pakistani originating young Muslims have considerable contact with the
'Pakistani homeland' in a variety of ways. By close contact with mosques in
London, they have had teachings from mullahs who have come over directly
from Pakistan to inculcate religious values. Unfortunately, these teachers
are not literate in English and their whole world-view is a fairly narrow
one, untouched by Western thought and automatically hostile to such values,
to the point of distrusting British education in schools and the legal
system etc. I shudder when young Muslims here express a strong
desire for Sharia law etc in the UK.

Many of the parents feel the need to send their children to Pakistan for a
'good' education steeped in Islamic values and this impinges on their lives
on their return to the UK. Those who do not go to Pakistan, may engage
little in
mainstream life in a place like London and even if they do initially,
(socialising, drinking etc) tend to get back to 'true' Muslim values in
later life. This has surprised me as I have seen this happen so
much among students. Girls who wore western dress suddenly switch to muslim
dress etc. and men wearing Western gear like jeans tee shirts etc, switch
overnight to Islamic dress and wear beards to the point where I have failed
to recognize them! However, I have seen some of this this taking place in
the USA too.

Interestingly, Islam has proven to be very attractive to English women who
convert. White males also do so as well as West Indian men in small numbers.
Some such converts tend to be intensely
religious and even ready for jihad, suicide bombing etc. Apart from the
mosques where intense discussion takes place among worshippers, British
universities and colleges have become strong sites for such discussion about
Muslim matters.


It is worth noting that when a new migrant gets to the States, he can claim
almost immediately, that he is American because the USA permits and
encourages this. In the UK it is different. Minorities do stay within their
original
identity more substantially even if they call themselves Brits. Integration
is the term used even when such integration emphasises the original cultural
background, to the detriment of real integration, into the new community.
This aspect is now being questioned much more as there has been an element
of failure among some quarters to engage socially into British society
even if not economically.

Pakistani association is also linked to the more fundamentalist areas around
Pakistan including Afghanistan. Taliban and fundamentalist influence, for
example, is real in Pakistan and inevitably has an influence on those from
the UK who are alienated and seek solace in radical/fundamentalist thinking
on their visits to the region. This also relates to those who seek military
training available to jihadists influenced by Al Qaeda etc. Alienated Muslim
youth from the UK and elsewhere are a godsend to the likes of bin Laden and
his minnions.

Muslims of Indian origin
In contrast, the Indian Muslim differs in significant ways. In general, I
would think he is Indian first and Muslim second in a secular India. He is,
I think also, more integrated in Indian society and has lots of examples of
high profile successful Muslims in India. Of course, we know that there are
more
Muslims in India than there are in Pakistan. On the whole, those from India
do not see Muslim Pakistan as a homeland. This in turn means that contact
with radical
elements in Pakistan would be minimal. Translated to the UK scene, the
Indian has generally been more educationally and economically successful and
more integrated than the Pakistani originating Muslim. Material success
ameliorates against the call for radicalisation and any jihadist thoughts
for those Muslims of Indian origin. Nevertheless, geographical friendship
patterns in London
may bring Indian and Pakistani Muslims close together.

A small point to note is that Indian children were also sent to India for a
'good' education but there is less of this now. Indian children, and
especially those from East African backgrounds excel at education and in the
professions as do the Chinese and many Africans, but not those of
Afro-Caribbean background.

Faith Schools
Britain and especially Blair, have supported faith schools to which I am
strongly opposed. There is a historical issue associated with faith schools
like Church of England, Catholic, Jewish and now, Muslim, Sikh schools etc.
I believe that this is disastrous towards proper integration but many claim
the opposite view which I can't go into here.

Recent events:
The first attack on the tube , 7/7, was largely unexpected. However, there
had been many rumblings of discontent with the Government. As a whole,
Britain was opposed to the war against Iraq as most thought there was no
justification. The Muslims, on the whole were pretty uncomfortable about a
Muslim country becoming devastated by American and British forces even
though there was probably widespread acceptance that Sadaam Hussein had to
be dislodged/eliminated. When 7/7 occured, it became clear fairly soon what
the motive was for the attack. On video, the bombers indicated that just as
Britain was at war with Iraq, they were at war with Britain.

In the recent foiled attack on planes between Britain and America, was
fairly clear to most people here. The radical Muslims were enraged by what
they saw as Blair's clear determination to allow Israel to pursue their
attack on Hizbullha despite the deaths of thousands of Lebanese children,
women and men. The pictures on TV were devastating and I for one anticipated
a grand attack on Britain orchestrated by Al Qaeda. Indeed, this was
forecast
by the Al Quaeda leadership. All the indications are that there will be more
attempts. No surveilance can provide 100% security anywhere. We therefore
live in considerable fear about a likely successful attack.

The Muslim leadership in the UK including menbers of Parliament and members
of the Lords sent an open letter to the Prime Minister expressing their
grave concerns that the lives of many were put at risk through current
British Foreign Policy in the Middle East. However, Blair and some of his
Ministers are dismissive of the link.

I hope some of my thoughts are helpful to you. As usual, I tend to tap away
immediately to a question because I know I will never do it if I delay a
reply! Inevitably there will be less thought in a quick reply but one can
always respond to further questions if necessary.
Kind regards
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elisabeth Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: <cornel at btinternet.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 4:34 AM
Subject: Perspective on Indian and Pakistani Muslims in UK/ to Dr Cornel
Dear Cornel,
I am gathering some information for a project and I
was wondering if you could share with us your personal
perspective on the assimilation of the Indian and
Pakistani Muslims in the UK.
Gabe Menezes
2006-08-13 10:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Dr Cornel,
I am gathering some information for a project and I
was wondering if you could share with us your personal
perspective on the assimilation of the Indian and
Pakistani Muslims in the UK.
Instead of confining this request to a personal mail,
I've put it out on Goanet, as a personal perspective
might be of interest to this world-wide audience,
especially in light of recent events.
In a span of less than 2 years, UK born second
generation Muslim have been involved in acts of
terrorism or in the plotting stages of such acts. The
recent one being the foiled plot to blow up US
transatlantic passenger jets.
I am keen to know why the Pakistani Muslim feels
disenfranchised from mainstream UK, and what is his
attraction to this ideology of terror. And how does
the Indian Muslim differ in this regard. Afterall, we
have yet to hear of any Indian Muslims involved in
such activities.
Thank you,
Elisabeth
Dear Elizabeth,

I shall leave Cornel, to expound on this. Many of our Citizens have
concluded that the double standards, employed by our Government, is
one of the main reasons.

They see the atrocities committed in the Middle East and the emails
and pictures circulated by blogs, which in many cases are made to fit
the occasion.

One of the July suicide bombers left a video clip to state his girpe.
This of course does not justify one iota his actions but can, to an
extent, explain what you seek.

Muslim Members of Parliament along with Muslim members of the Lords,
took up a full page advertisement in some of yesterday's newspapers,
which in effect bears out what the majority of the Citizens in our
Country are espousing. The U.K. Foreign policy stinks!

The Government is in isolation and has its own agenda!
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
cornel
2006-08-13 19:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Elisabeth
Thanks for you very interesting question about what prompts
Pakistani originating Muslims to adopt terrorist behaviour/action, unlike
the Indian originating Muslims in London.

The question is complex and I do not claim certainty about my interpretation
below. However, it is an issue that has come up among my academic
colleagues.

LINKAGES: Muslims of Pakistani origin.
Pakistani originating young Muslims have considerable contact with the
'Pakistani homeland' in a variety of ways. By close contact with mosques in
London, they have had teachings from mullahs who have come over directly
from Pakistan to inculcate religious values. Unfortunately, these teachers
are not literate in English and their whole world-view is a fairly narrow
one, untouched by Western thought and automatically hostile to such values,
to the point of distrusting British education in schools and the legal
system etc. I shudder when young Muslims here express a strong
desire for Sharia law etc in the UK.

Many of the parents feel the need to send their children to Pakistan for a
'good' education steeped in Islamic values and this impinges on their lives
on their return to the UK. Those who do not go to Pakistan, may engage
little in
mainstream life in a place like London and even if they do initially,
(socialising, drinking etc) tend to get back to 'true' Muslim values in
later life. This has surprised me as I have seen this happen so
much among students. Girls who wore western dress suddenly switch to muslim
dress etc. and men wearing Western gear like jeans tee shirts etc, switch
overnight to Islamic dress and wear beards to the point where I have failed
to recognize them! However, I have seen some of this this taking place in
the USA too.

Interestingly, Islam has proven to be very attractive to English women who
convert. White males also do so as well as West Indian men in small numbers.
Some such converts tend to be intensely
religious and even ready for jihad, suicide bombing etc. Apart from the
mosques where intense discussion takes place among worshippers, British
universities and colleges have become strong sites for such discussion about
Muslim matters.


It is worth noting that when a new migrant gets to the States, he can claim
almost immediately, that he is American because the USA permits and
encourages this. In the UK it is different. Minorities do stay within their
original
identity more substantially even if they call themselves Brits. Integration
is the term used even when such integration emphasises the original cultural
background, to the detriment of real integration, into the new community.
This aspect is now being questioned much more as there has been an element
of failure among some quarters to engage socially into British society
even if not economically.

Pakistani association is also linked to the more fundamentalist areas around
Pakistan including Afghanistan. Taliban and fundamentalist influence, for
example, is real in Pakistan and inevitably has an influence on those from
the UK who are alienated and seek solace in radical/fundamentalist thinking
on their visits to the region. This also relates to those who seek military
training available to jihadists influenced by Al Qaeda etc. Alienated Muslim
youth from the UK and elsewhere are a godsend to the likes of bin Laden and
his minnions.

Muslims of Indian origin
In contrast, the Indian Muslim differs in significant ways. In general, I
would think he is Indian first and Muslim second in a secular India. He is,
I think also, more integrated in Indian society and has lots of examples of
high profile successful Muslims in India. Of course, we know that there are
more
Muslims in India than there are in Pakistan. On the whole, those from India
do not see Muslim Pakistan as a homeland. This in turn means that contact
with radical
elements in Pakistan would be minimal. Translated to the UK scene, the
Indian has generally been more educationally and economically successful and
more integrated than the Pakistani originating Muslim. Material success
ameliorates against the call for radicalisation and any jihadist thoughts
for those Muslims of Indian origin. Nevertheless, geographical friendship
patterns in London
may bring Indian and Pakistani Muslims close together.

A small point to note is that Indian children were also sent to India for a
'good' education but there is less of this now. Indian children, and
especially those from East African backgrounds excel at education and in the
professions as do the Chinese and many Africans, but not those of
Afro-Caribbean background.

Faith Schools
Britain and especially Blair, have supported faith schools to which I am
strongly opposed. There is a historical issue associated with faith schools
like Church of England, Catholic, Jewish and now, Muslim, Sikh schools etc.
I believe that this is disastrous towards proper integration but many claim
the opposite view which I can't go into here.

Recent events:
The first attack on the tube , 7/7, was largely unexpected. However, there
had been many rumblings of discontent with the Government. As a whole,
Britain was opposed to the war against Iraq as most thought there was no
justification. The Muslims, on the whole were pretty uncomfortable about a
Muslim country becoming devastated by American and British forces even
though there was probably widespread acceptance that Sadaam Hussein had to
be dislodged/eliminated. When 7/7 occured, it became clear fairly soon what
the motive was for the attack. On video, the bombers indicated that just as
Britain was at war with Iraq, they were at war with Britain.

In the recent foiled attack on planes between Britain and America, was
fairly clear to most people here. The radical Muslims were enraged by what
they saw as Blair's clear determination to allow Israel to pursue their
attack on Hizbullha despite the deaths of thousands of Lebanese children,
women and men. The pictures on TV were devastating and I for one anticipated
a grand attack on Britain orchestrated by Al Qaeda. Indeed, this was
forecast
by the Al Quaeda leadership. All the indications are that there will be more
attempts. No surveilance can provide 100% security anywhere. We therefore
live in considerable fear about a likely successful attack.

The Muslim leadership in the UK including menbers of Parliament and members
of the Lords sent an open letter to the Prime Minister expressing their
grave concerns that the lives of many were put at risk through current
British Foreign Policy in the Middle East. However, Blair and some of his
Ministers are dismissive of the link.

I hope some of my thoughts are helpful to you. As usual, I tend to tap away
immediately to a question because I know I will never do it if I delay a
reply! Inevitably there will be less thought in a quick reply but one can
always respond to further questions if necessary.
Kind regards
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elisabeth Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: <cornel at btinternet.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 4:34 AM
Subject: Perspective on Indian and Pakistani Muslims in UK/ to Dr Cornel
Dear Cornel,
I am gathering some information for a project and I
was wondering if you could share with us your personal
perspective on the assimilation of the Indian and
Pakistani Muslims in the UK.
<