Discussion:
Gandhi
(too old to reply)
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-02-17 15:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dr. Barad,
It is now a week since I asked you to provide us with the exact words Pamela Mountbatten used, that led you to make certain derogatory remarks about persons who are dead, and so not able to defend themselves against lies and calumnies.
Have you found the passage yet? Do you think you will ever find it? Are you hoping Goanetters will forget what you wrote, if you duck the issue long enough?
Come on, Dr. Barad! We are waiting for your answer. Fortunately, we are not holding our breath, or we could die of asphyxiation.
Best possible personal regards,
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro <vrangelrib at yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Barad,
I have no interest in buying Pamela Mountbatten's book. You made a statement that you claim is based on that book. It is up to you to prove the truth of that claim --- if it is based on that book, please cite the exact passage that is relevant. You can quote up to 400 words without violating copyright laws.

So please go to it. We are waiting.
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro

"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Victor,

Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book
online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.

Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.

Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad


Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me:

Dear Dr. Barad,

To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-18 08:35:25 UTC
Permalink
Dear Victor,



This has reference to your message titled Gandhi (Message no 7 dated Sunday
17 February 2008) regarding book authored by Pamela Mountbatten.



Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.



If you find the book too costly to buy, please try if you can get low cost
edition of this book which I am not aware off and still if you don't want to
buy the book...forget it. With this explanation I would rather say you can
continue to wait for weeks, months, and years holding your breath or
otherwise..



Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.



Best regards,



Dr. U. G. Barad





Here are follow up messages of Victor and my response to them:



Victor wrote: Dear Dr. Barad,



It is now a week since I asked you to provide us with the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used, that led you to make certain derogatory remarks
about persons who are dead, and so not able to defend themselves against
lies and calumnies.

Have you found the passage yet? Do you think you will ever find it?
Are you hoping Goanetters will forget what you wrote, if you duck the issue
long enough?

Come on, Dr. Barad! We are waiting for your answer. Fortunately, we
are not holding our breath, or we could die of asphyxiation.

Best possible personal regards,

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro



Victor Rangel-Ribeiro wrote: Dear Dr. Barad,

I have no interest in buying Pamela Mountbatten's book. You made a
statement that you claim is based on that book. It is up to you to prove the
truth of that claim --- if it is based on that book, please cite the exact
passage that is relevant. You can quote up to 400 words without violating
copyright laws.



So please go to it. We are waiting.

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro



"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:Dear Victor,



Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book

online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.



Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.



Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..



Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad





Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me: Dear Dr. Barad,



To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Seb dc
2008-02-18 11:04:14 UTC
Permalink
One thing i can't understand is: 'Why quote someone, when u cannot provide
what is required' I for one has been anxiously waiting to hear from Dr.
Barad. but now it seems he has given the slip.... Better luck next time
Victor !!
Post by Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
Dear Victor,
Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.
Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.
Ok for education i can understand, but what about quoting someone, that too
without proper...:-) Need i say more. Nice duck doc!!

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb
Seb dc
2008-02-18 11:04:14 UTC
Permalink
One thing i can't understand is: 'Why quote someone, when u cannot provide
what is required' I for one has been anxiously waiting to hear from Dr.
Barad. but now it seems he has given the slip.... Better luck next time
Victor !!
Post by Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
Dear Victor,
Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.
Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.
Ok for education i can understand, but what about quoting someone, that too
without proper...:-) Need i say more. Nice duck doc!!

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb
Seb dc
2008-02-18 11:04:14 UTC
Permalink
One thing i can't understand is: 'Why quote someone, when u cannot provide
what is required' I for one has been anxiously waiting to hear from Dr.
Barad. but now it seems he has given the slip.... Better luck next time
Victor !!
Post by Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
Dear Victor,
Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.
Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.
Ok for education i can understand, but what about quoting someone, that too
without proper...:-) Need i say more. Nice duck doc!!

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb
Seb dc
2008-02-18 11:04:14 UTC
Permalink
One thing i can't understand is: 'Why quote someone, when u cannot provide
what is required' I for one has been anxiously waiting to hear from Dr.
Barad. but now it seems he has given the slip.... Better luck next time
Victor !!
Post by Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
Dear Victor,
Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.
Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.
Ok for education i can understand, but what about quoting someone, that too
without proper...:-) Need i say more. Nice duck doc!!

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb
Seb dc
2008-02-18 11:04:14 UTC
Permalink
One thing i can't understand is: 'Why quote someone, when u cannot provide
what is required' I for one has been anxiously waiting to hear from Dr.
Barad. but now it seems he has given the slip.... Better luck next time
Victor !!
Post by Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
Dear Victor,
Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.
Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.
Ok for education i can understand, but what about quoting someone, that too
without proper...:-) Need i say more. Nice duck doc!!

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-02-21 02:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dr. Barad,
Now that you have shown me how to complete my admittedly deficient education I feel better already.

But days have passed, and you still are not able to find the quote from Pamela Mountbatten's book that would prove the truth of your allegations. Have you lost your copy? If so, why don't you buy another? If you can't afford it, why don't you look for a cheaper copy?

Of course, you have two other options. You can admit you were mistaken, and misread a passage. Or you can say your memory played you a trick. That at least would be honest.

Regards,
Victor (who, alas, still is not qualified to put "Dr." in front of his name)

"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:


Dear Victor

This has reference to your message titled Gandhi (Message no 7 dated Sunday
17 February 2008) regarding book authored by Pamela Mountbatten.

Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.

If you find the book too costly to buy, please try if you can get low cost
edition of this book which I am not aware off and still if you don't want to
buy the book...forget it. With this explanation I would rather say you can
continue to wait for weeks, months, and years holding your breath or
otherwise..

Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.
Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
els verwimp
2008-02-02 14:03:42 UTC
Permalink
dear all,

for quite some time now I am rather upset reading some thoughtless messages about religion and how good christianity is and how poor and barbaric and inferior all other religions (specially the hindu religion and definitely islam) are. I do know that these words are not used literaly in any of the posts sent to Goanet. But just to read between the lines of what 'some' people write gives me a rather uncomfortable feeling.

Every religion can be abused.
It is easy for us to look at what is going on in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saoudi-Arabia, Irak, Iran, ... Belgium, Spain, England, ... in the name of islam.
We can also look on what is going on in the Middle East and how some Israeli people (government) terrorise people in the name of a holy book and that this used to be a 'promised land'. Promised? By who?
Anyhow, it will definitely be a lot easier for many of you people to look at what is going on in some parts of India also in the name of religion against certain minorities.

In Goa many people just seem to ignore for instance the inquisition. It is necessary to know the 'facts' in order to move on. Talking about the inquisition doesn't mean that you are blaming christian religion. On the contrary you are blaming something that is completely gone out of hand and has nothing to do with religion but only with power and politics. Ever heard about the 'liberation theology' in Latin America? It is also known as Christian socialism and it focuses on Christ not only the redeemer but also the 'liberator' of the oppressed. This movement which was very active and was growing pretty fast in Latin America was of course harshly warned by Pope John Paul II (a saint???) and his successor Pope Benedict XVI. Poor people, the lowest of the lowest were uplifted by many ordinary local priests while the bishops and the cardinals were drinking their wine and talking politics and smoking their Havana's with those in power. In my opinion these brave priests are the true christians.

I guess that people in these uncertain times (worldwide) deserve strong, confident, honest leadership with a true mission and vision. Unfortunately nowhere to be found so far. I appreciated a post on this list (don't know who wrote it anymore) talking about the importance of Dr. Martin Luther King. Perhaps people should try to find a way towards dialogue, which sometimes might be very difficult and dangerous specially when your opponent isn't willing. It surprises me that nobody on this list ever mentioned the 60th deathanniversary of Gandhi. It seems he and his thoughts, believes, ... have slowly vanished over the Ganges and into the sea. Unfortunately, cause he is needed.

Take care
Martin Van Camp - Duarte
Belgium
Bhandare
2008-02-02 17:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear Martin:

Sixy years after his assasinaton, what we need is a
critical analysis of the mans politics and principles
and actions rather tha merely hoisting him on a
pedestal and worshipping him. We Indians have a
tendency to hero worship and gandhi is the ultimate
hero.

While it is true that he was a great man and espoused
many noble causes, he was far from perfect. His
assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.

The congress prty had a selfish interest in
perpetuating this legacy of gandhi and capitalise on
it politically. That is the reason why they have never
allowed a honest discussion about the man. But now
Indians are increasingly getting frustrated with his
ideas and and I am sure in another generation Gandhi
would lose his significance even more.

regards

B




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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-03 09:43:59 UTC
Permalink
I read Martin Van Camp ? Duarte Belgium - titled ? Gandhi twice. And I felt
the posting is quite okay except for his 3rd Para which makes passing
reference to Goa Inquisition, although he does not go further.?

This 3rd Para as is used by the writer reads the following lines:

In Goa many people just seem to ignore for instance the inquisition. It is
necessary to know the 'facts' in order to move on. Talking about the
inquisition doesn't mean that you are blaming christian religion. On the
contrary you are blaming something that is completely gone out of hand and
has nothing to do with religion but only with power and politics. Ever heard
about the 'liberation theology' in Latin America? It is also known as
Christian socialism and it focuses on Christ not only the redeemer but also
the 'liberator' of the oppressed. This movement which was very active and
was growing pretty fast in Latin America was of course harshly warned by
Pope John Paul II (a saint???) and his successor Pope Benedict XVI. Poor
people, the lowest of the lowest were uplifted by many ordinary local
priests while the bishops and the cardinals were drinking their wine and
talking politics and smoking their Havana's with those in power. In my
opinion these brave priests are the true?Christians.

My rejoinder to this 3rd Para would be:

In times of Inquisition in Goa, Christians destroyed a very large number of
Hindu Temples, and wrote about this destruction in the memoirs kept by
them.? For a comprehensive list of the various Hindu temples in Goa
destroyed by the Portuguese Christian soldiers, refer to the book - Hindu
Temples of Goa - by Adv. Rui Gomes Pereira.? It will be an eye-opener to
so-called secularists who shed countless crocodile tears over demolition of
Babri Masjid.?

Further mention of atrocities committed by the Christian fanatics on Hindus
can be found in the Book "Goa Inquisition" by A. K. Priolkar.

There is also a book in Marathi on Inquisition by Adv. Laxmikant Bhembre,
father of Adv. Uday Bhembre, written when he was under deportation to
Portugal.?This book brings out all the references as is preserved in
Portugal Libraries with authentication.

Is the wanton destruction in Goa carried out by Christian fanatics to be
forgotten altogether??

Do not forget the maxim, 'History repeats itself" and "those who forget
history are bound to repeat it".

Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad
Bhandare
2008-02-03 15:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear george:

were bhagat singh , rajguru and sukhdev animals too?

regards

B




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Venantius Pinto
2008-02-03 22:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Bandare is right here. His point about Godse being a misguided patriot
should not lead to such a broad comparison ranging from the world's
murderers to suicide bombers. I too am not comfortable in casting
Godse as a criminal. Upon having assassinated Gandhi -- he became
culpable for the crime he committed, as a patriot -- towards
maintaining a certain partisan perspective. This is akin to one man's
terrorist being another man's freedom fighter. Taking a life has been
a crime for centuries now, that is true. But crime, criminal behavior
and criminality have to be seen in their contexts. This is an area for
fine discernment and would be an involved discourse that I am unable
to take on at present.

Bandare is actually being very gracious in even calling NG a misguided
patriot. I see both Nathuram Godse and Gandhi as patriots, pure and
simple with all the connotations attached to the term. Different
directions, different concessions, that's all. Nowadays very few of us
would consider taking on the appellation of a patriot. It has lost its
early embracing power and meaning.

Bhagat Singh, Rajguru and Sukhdev could not be criminals in the eyes
of the Indians and we should never see them as criminals. And how
about Lal, Bal, Pal, Chandra Sekhar Azad, Veer Savarkar, Rash Behari
Bose, Bagha Jatin, and Deshbandu Chittaranjan Das --- all patriots?!
Yes. And fine ones at that, inspite in at least one exenuating case,
practically a bigot. The British can arrogate themselves in seeing
these individuals as criminals, but we cannot allow ourselves to do
so.

Other than that does anyone have any idea when the papers of the
Jallianwalla Baugh/Bagh massacre will be opened by the British?

venantius j pinto
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Gandhi
His [GANDHI'S] assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.
Wow! All the murderers, including suicide bombers, of this world will be pleased to know they are
misguided and not criminal. I am sure victims should feel better they were not killed by human
animals like Godse, but merely misguided folk.
Regards,
George
Bhandare
2008-02-04 02:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

I am glad you weighed in on this one. Nathuram Godse
assasinated Gandhi not for any personal gain. He did
it for what he believed was the greater good of the
country. He did not flee from the scene and was very
eloquent in describing his motives for killing gandhi.
Even while india was at a war with pakistan over
kashmir, gandhi blackmailed the govt to give pakistan
55 crore rupees , money which was used to fuel the war
against our nation. Godse considered that act as
treason and acted in order to safeguard national
interest.

Bhagat singh on the other hand killed a british police
offcer who was not involved in the assault on lala
lajpat rai.Instead of Saunders, he murdered
Scott.Later he fled from the police.

Who is a terrorist depends on whose version you want
to hear. A democratically elected Prezident Bush is
widely regarded as a "terrorist" for a large section
of the muslim world. On the other hand Osama is hailed
as a "revolutionary hero" and a "lion of resistance"
The same is true for every other revolutionary or
terrorist.

George Pinto has now qualified his response. So
according to him, war is exempt. So it is ok for
America to kill vietnamese civilians by napalm, as
long as it is war. Or poor afghans by predator drone
attacks. Quite interesting!

On this very forum we have had many people
enthusiastically refrring to the lynching of a quarry
owner by a mob of villagers in Saleli, or stoming a
mining compny property in Colomb as a people's
movement.
Yet the same people would probably describe the
storming of the babri masjid as 'hindutva fascism...
the background is identical...civil laws were unable
to meet the aspirations of the people.

The only point I am making is : We can not treat Godse
any separately from Bhagat Singh or Che or any other
revolutionary.

regards



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Pravin Sabnis
2008-02-04 02:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bhandare
were bhagat singh , rajguru and sukhdev animals too?
regards
B
All human beings are animals. So there.
Bhagat, Rajguru, Sukhdev described themselves as marxists.
; - )
Bhagat Singh is very interesting to read and understand
He was hanged at the age of 23
He was a writer who turned rebel
check out what I wrote about an inspiring icon
http://monday-muse.blogspot.com/2007/09/synonymous-with-shaheed.html

regards
Pravin-da


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Miguel Braganza
2008-02-04 09:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Dears,

Great classification Chinmay Bhandare,
Adolf Hitler is now the world's best known PATRIOT.
Perhaps Rockfeller Institute or Fundacao Gulbenkian will honour him
one of these days. Through his untimely death, he missed the Nobel
Prize for Medicine, bitter though it was ;-) The Nobel Prize is not
given posthumously.

I wonder why the HJS Dharmatej folks felicitate mini-patriots like
Rajendra Subhash Velingker, whose patriotism is limited to breaking
and/or defacing name plaques of streets in Fontainhas? Small people
have small minds and get small thrills, huh? For their sterling
performance, such patriots should at least be given the state's
Yashdamini Awards. That will have to await the change in dispensation.

One set of misguided patriots that I can recall are those patriot
missiles George Bush used in Iraq. ;-)

Mog asundi.

Miguel


Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 20:57:29 -0800 (PST)
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Gandhi

Wow! All the murderers, including suicide bombers, of this world will
be pleased to know they aremisguided and not criminal. I am sure
victims should feel better they were not killed by humananimals like
Godse, but merely misguided folk.
Regards,
George
His [GANDHI'S] assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.
--
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Miguel Braganza, S1 Gracinda Apts,
Rajvaddo, Mhapsa 403507 Goa
Ph 9822982676 miguelbraganza at yahoo.co.in
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Bhandare
2008-02-04 14:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to all those who responded on this topic. I will ignore the usual
suspects and respond to some interesting points made by Pravin, Venantius and george.

George, I am sorry for having misread you. Which war is just and which one is unjust is itself a difficult question. That bein said my point was that if killing a fellow human being is a crime then all our certified "heroes" like bhagat singh and others should be treated on par with Godse. Do you agree with this ?

Venantius, i am glad that you agree with me.The reason i called Godse a "misguided patriot" is simply because of a lack of any other good term. In fact because godse killed Gandhi , Gandhism got a fresh lease of life. Had Gandhi been allowed to experiment with his ideas maybe Gandhism would have died a quicker death.I would rather want gandhism dead than Gandhi.
Interestingly gandhi himself had called Chatrapati shivaji, rana pratap and Guru Gobind Singh as "misguided patriots" himself.

Pravin, can you please explain why Bhagat singh is a hero and Godse isnt? Godse too died at the young age of 39. Lke Bhagat singh he refused to plead innocent and forbid anyone from filing a mercy petition on his behalf. Both acted to safeguard their country. I am curius where and why you draw the line.

In fact the administration acted cruelly in Godse's case and refused to hang him in Pune thereby deprivng his old parents a chance to meet him for the last time.
The date was kept secret and the ground where he was hanged was ploughed over to revent a memorial coming up at the spot.
The Congress government proscribed his brothers writings and stiffled all discussin about the man and vilified him no end.
The RSS was accused of being complicit and banned and so was savarkar. Bothe were acquitted honorably because evidence suggested Godse was acting alone.The ban was lifted to.

regards

B






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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-04 13:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Going by different versions expressed in the net, I thought I should share
some more information on Gandhi to Goanet.

Back ground information: Sonia Maino, after she got married to Rajiv Gandhi,
when he was studying in England, got the new name as Sonia Gandhi. This
Sonia Gandhi is not at all related to Mahatma Gandhi. Rather Mahatma Gandhi
and Indira Gandhi have no blood relationship at all. Indira Nehru got
married to one person by name Firoz Ghandy, and he was not a Parsi but a
Muslim. After the marriage of Indira with Firoz also in England, both
decided to adopt the surname Gandhi. And that's how Indira from that day was
know as Indira Gandhi wife of Feroze Gandhi and her dynasty i.e. Gandhi
dynasty started and is continuing till date. But many Goans are still under
the impression that Indira Gandhi is hailing from Mahatma Gandhi roots. And
this might be one of the causes of extending blind support to Gandhi family
in power, while Mahatma Gandhi's family members are still without any
recognition!

Another Factual Reality: In a book titled Famous Trials of India by Justice
G. D. Khosla who was one of the judges during the trial of Nathuram Godse,
the said Justice Khosla writes in one of the chapter (on Nathuram Godse
trial), saying "Had the audience in the court been converted into a jury, I
have no doubt that they would have unanimously returned the verdict of
Nathuram Godse is not GUILTY "This is what the pubic sympathy was for
Nathuram Godse at the relevant time.

A famous Indian Author who writes in English and is famous the world over
for his writings, namely Colonel Manohar Malgaonkar, a retired Colonel of
the Indian Army, also very much conversant with Goa having a book written on
Goa, to which the cartoons for illustration have been drawn by the world
famous Cartoonist of Goan origin Mr. Mario Miranda, writes in one of his
novels, namely "the Men who killed Mahatma Gandhi", saying "During the
famous fast unto death of Mahatma Gandhi in 1947 to compel the Government of
India to disburse 55 Crores of rupees to Pakistan immediately after the
Partition of India, Hindu refugees from Pakistan who were leaving in refugee
camps in Delhi were seen shouting "GANDHI MARTA HAI TO MARNE DO". Although
it is a novel, it has been based on meticulous field inquiries by the said
author. This quotation by Colonel Manohar Malgaonkar also shows what the
level of public hatred / sympathy towards Mahatma Gandhi was then.
Incidentally, the said Col. Manohar Malgaokar was writing a regular column
in Sunday edition of Navhind Times of Goa, for many years, till about three
four years back. He is a landlord of a village called "Jagalbet" near Londa,
on the road to Supa and Dandeli, and was a regular visitor to Goa.

One who is interested in knowing more about factual realities prevailing at
the relevant time and to know the other side of the story, should read the
following books: (1) Gandhi Hatya ani Mi, in Marathi by Gopal Godse, brother
of Nathuram Godse. The English version of this Book is "Gandhiji's Murder
and After (this book brings out all the arguments and explanations given by
Nathuram Godse during his trial in the court. The statements quoted in this
book exactly matches with the one in Justice Khosla's book - Famous Trials
of India); (2) 55 Kotiche Bali, in Marathi, its English Version being May It
Please Your Honour. (In this book Godse writes that even when India was at a
war with Pakistan over Kashmir issue, Gandhi's huger strike blackmailed the
Government of India to give Pakistan the sum of Rupees 55 Crores. This sum
was rightly denied to be given even by Sardar Vallabh bhai Patel. Later, as
Sardar Patel predicted, that 55 Crores of Rupees were used by Pakistan to
fight endless wars against India. The Hunger strike of Gandhi was literary
proved to be a blackmailing tactics against India and was also considered as
an act of disloyalty towards safeguarding the interest of the nation. It was
also concluded by most Indians as an act trying to show that - I am above
nation. This book also brings out arguments and explanations given by
Nathuram Godse during his trial in the court). Both these books are authored
by Gopal Godse and are running in 18th edition as of date.

Without taking much space of Goa Net, I conclude saying, had it not for
Jawaharlal Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi combine, our India would have continued
to be one single nation not bifurcated into India and Pakistan. This is
because Nehru's weakness was taken advantage of by Lady Mountbatten who was
then the Vice-Roy of India. Now whether bifurcation of India was good or
otherwise is a different question.

By bringing this reality before Goa Net I am in no way trying to tarnish the
images of Mahatma Gandhi and Indira Gandhi's family, but only drawing
attention to the other side of the story, so that readers with an analytical
mind will be compelled to think.

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
Vinay Natekar
2008-02-05 06:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Dear Chinmay
Your definition of a misguided patriot applies much
better to many terrorists/criminals of today e.g.
suicide bombers. The fact remains that whoever these
people are they have murdered another human being.
They are criminals under secular law. The only type of
killing that law excuses is that in self-defense, or
in defense of one's country. You appear to be
justifying the murder of Gandhi for purely ideological
reasons, or for some speculative unproven charge
against him, most likely based on an ideology with
which you sympathize.
Response

In legal and social terms Godse can be termed as a murderer, a fanatic
RSS activist and his crime of killing a human being can not be condoned
may it be Mahatma Gandhi or any ordinary person. Even the most imperfect
man has to come to this path eventually. Our responsibility is not to
cut his life short, thereby stopping his progression which should be
left to divine dispensation.

Bhagavad Gita says, no action is by itself sinful or meritorious. It is
the motive in the heart of the doer which leads him to take a particular
action that is the determining factor.

I am just forwarding few lines from Godse's biography excerpted from
Pradeep Dalvi's controversial play 'Mi Nathuram Godse Boltoy.'

"I was born on May 19, 1910 to Vinayakrao and Laxmi. I had three
brothers, but none survived. After my parent's prayer to God their
fourth son that is me, Nathuram survived because my parents were
destined to suffer for their young son's death and Gandhi was destined
to be assassinated.

I never stole in my childhood, so there was no question of apologising
to my father. I never took a vow of celibacy as I was already practicing
celibacy. I was moving around the refugee camps and helping the
destitute with food and clothes. But I did not wander half-naked because
the refugees were naked. I never spun yarn, never cleaned my toilet,
never observed silence till I was hanged. There was only one common
factor in Gandhi's life and mine. We were both the cause of each other's
death. He wanted to live for his principles and I was prepared to die
for my principles."



Vinay
Bhandare
2008-02-05 13:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

First of all i did not justify Gandhi's kiling. I would have called godse a patriot and not 'misguided'

In fact i said that by kiling Gandhi, Godse gave his idelogy a fresh lease of life. I tried to give a reason from Godse's point of view why he did what he did .
The otherpont i made was that if taking anther persons life (except in self defence and as george says in a just war) is wrong than all our revolutionary heroeslike bhagat singh and others should be treated on par with Godse.

Also my reason about Godse s far from 'uncritical' It may very well be diametically opposite to your views but in my humble opinion it doesnt make it uncritical.

Regarding Godses's motive ,the cabiet decided to withold the money to pakistan because of the war.gandhi went on his fast to death..the govt succumbed to the pressure tactics and gave pakistan the money...thw money which was used to fuel the war...proving again that when it came to national interest the congress was ready to satisfy gandhis illgical demands at the cost of national security.

what part of this is exactly 'speculative' or 'based on ideology'


As for Jose Colaco, can he provide any evidence that Godse attacked gandhi before ? to the best of my knowledge there was one unsuccesful attack on gandhi a week back. It was jointly caried out by the godse brothers, madanlas pahwa, vishnupant karkare.
Can jose provide the details of any attack before that?

As for Selma cardoso , have you noticed how cleverly she put the word RSS in Jose's mouth? but that is besides the point.







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Venantius Pinto
2008-02-05 12:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Bhandare,
You are being clinically truthful when you say "I would rather want
gandhism dead than Gandhi." I see your point -- events would have
swung differently if Gandhi was alive; the very concept of Gandhism
would not have existed and in so being, not a construct to benefit
from -- for certain quarters, or the rallying force for millions.
Perhaps in Gandhi's place or alternate space someone else would have
emerged as a "leveller or strongman."

venantius
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 06:58:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Bhandare <bhandare1978 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Gandhi
The reason i called Godse a "misguided patriot" is simply because of a
lack of any other good term. In fact because godse killed Gandhi ,
Gandhism got a fresh lease of life. Had Gandhi been allowed to
experiment with his ideas maybe Gandhism would have died a quicker
death.I would rather want gandhism dead than Gandhi.
Bhandare
2008-02-07 15:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

I submit that all 3 websites that you have provided are ideologically driven ones. The last one is driven by "hindutva" while the first 2 are driven by "gandhivaad"...The second one is merely a criticism of a play on Nathuram while the first a hagiography which cleverly leaves out the unpleasant facts about gandhi.

Let me comment on the content of both the websites that you have referred to in support of your claim
------------------------------------------------------------------------
the second website says the following, and I qreproduce verbatim:

QUOTE"
Gandhiji started his fast on January 13, 1948 at five minutes to noon. On the third day of the fast, that is on 15th January, the Government of India declared its decision of handing over to Pakistan its share of Rs. 55 crore from the cash balances immediately. Yet Gandhiji did not withdraw his fast since its second objective was to establish peace between Hindus and Muslims in Delhi. ENDQUOE


This clearly mentions that the SECOND condition was HinduMuslim unity. what was the first condition? Does it not appear from the text that the first condition was "giving 55 crores to pakistan'?

also please think about the reason why the Indian government which had withheld the money because of the aggression reversed its decison, if not for gandhi's pressure tactics.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
regarding the first website , it gives 6 "facts" to suport its claims.

the first four are "conjecture" or hearsay" and can not be independently verified. the next 2 are reproduced below:

1. The press release of the government of India did not have any mention thereof.

This statement is a blatant lie.

In the book ,"Dr. Rajendra Prasad: Correspondence and Select documents, Vol. 8" the Governemnt Communique is printed verbatim ( as appearing in the Hindustan Times on jan 16th)

Please read carefully this relevant page http://tinyurl.com/252xoa

The communique clearly states that decision to hand over 55 crores minus expenses to pakistan was motivated by its desire to end the suffering of the nations soul and in response to the appeal made by gandhi.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.The list of assurances given by the committee headed by Dr. Rajendra Prasad to persuade Gandhiji to give up his fast did not include it.

This is the kind of insidious propaganda carried out by the gandhians for over half a century. The statement is true but only partly . When gandhi went on his fast he had two main conditions, the 55 crores issue and restoring hindu muslim unity ion Delhi. Even Godse mentions this in his deposition.

The assurances , which can be found here, http://tinyurl.com/yubgsl, were given on 18th when the govt had already accepted gandhis first condition of honoring the 55 crore pledge on the 15th of january. The reason gandhi did not sip his juice on 15th was because the second condition was not met. This was satisfied by the assurances given by the representatives of the various political organizations on 18th.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking forward to hear your comments. In case you are interested I will provide a detailed account of the bogus statements made in the two websites that you have circulated.

regards

Chinmay













The list of assurances given by the committee headed by Dr. Rajendra Prasad to persuade Gandhiji to give up his fast did not include it.







regards

chinmay



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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-08 06:09:55 UTC
Permalink
I need to explain the second last Para picked up from my posting under
subject Gandhi by Elisabeth Carvalho in her message No 2 in Goanet Digest,
Vol 3, Issue 150 Sent on Wednesday, February 06, 2008



Elisabeth rushed with her reply trying to silence me by brain and emotions
for a second and in that attempt she tried to shift the goal post to some
other point other than the point which was picked up by her from my posting!




Pamela Mountbatten showed her guts and gumption to talk about ones' family,
especially a mother's relationships in the public. On this count, perhaps
one of the rarest accounts of describing relationship is that of Pamela
Mountbatten's depiction of her mother Edwina, wife of Lord Mountbatten the
last Viceroy of India and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru's 'love affair' in her
book - India Remembered: A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the
Transfer of Power.



Pamela's approach in her book also gives an indication that emotions,
sentiments have no value when one talk, writes, discusses about the facts
and incidences that occurred in the past.



What Pamela mentioned in her book is what I had quoted in my posting. Once
you read that book you will get much more information than what I have
shared to the net. Nehru - Edwina relations are known all over India much
prior to even Pamela wrote the book! And if you still differ with what
Pamela wrote about Nehru - Edwina relation you could write to her expressing
your feelings, sentiments, etc...



Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad
Bhandare
2008-02-08 14:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

I have provided you with clear evidence why at least 2 of those facts are blatant lies or half truths at best.Can you comment on them?

I have provided references to the writings of Rajendra prasad, the first president of India as well as the official communique issued by the indian government which clearly mentions that it reversed its decision to withheld the money due to pakistan because of gandhijis fast.

I agree with you that the hindu jagruti site is crude and has more rhetoric than facts. I have already contacted them and should time permit i will take it upon myself to provide better researched content to their websites.

As regards your suspicion, i am afraid you are wrong. I have researched this issue a lot in the past long before i came on goanet. i am willing to argue point by point with you or anyone else on this, except of course a few of the usual suspects that i ignore.

regards

Chinmay



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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-09 12:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Again Selma is shifting the goal post to somewhere else not sticking on to
the point that was brought up by her. I know truth is always bitter. Selma
have a look at the archives, Nehru's intelligence, Bill Clinton, Monica and
or Middle East peace were not at all under discussion. As regards Clinton
and Monica world knows what's what....



If you want to start new thread for discussion on Bill Clinton, Monica and
or Middle East you may do so with the permission of Goanet for these are not
Goa related issue. If you start I don't mind contributing to the thread.



But good to see Selma back on net more these days.....



Best regards,



Dr. U. G. Barad





Selma wrote to me: Arrey Dotor Barad,



I am not contesting Lady Mountbatten's relationship with Nehru, I am only
making the point that neither

Mrs Carvalho nor Lady Mountbatten are or were capable of "trying to silence"
anyone's brains and emotions,

least of all a man like Nehru's. Nehru was an intellectual par excellence,
and holding his relationship with Edwina responsible for the creation of
Pakistan, is like saying Bill Clinton couldn't bring about Middle East peace
because he was occupied with Monica.



selma
Bhandare
2008-02-09 15:54:34 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

You say:
"Furthermore, your claim that the money (55 crores) was used to fuel the war against our nation seems to be speculation that cannot be supported by conclusive evidence."

I have no answer for you on this one, but common sense will dictate that if a impoverished nation is giving money in the middle of a conflict with a bigger and stronger opponent that that money will be used in some way to support the war effort.

regards

chinmay




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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-10 08:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Victor,

Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book
online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.

Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.

Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad


Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me:

Dear Dr. Barad,

To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-02-17 15:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dr. Barad,
It is now a week since I asked you to provide us with the exact words Pamela Mountbatten used, that led you to make certain derogatory remarks about persons who are dead, and so not able to defend themselves against lies and calumnies.
Have you found the passage yet? Do you think you will ever find it? Are you hoping Goanetters will forget what you wrote, if you duck the issue long enough?
Come on, Dr. Barad! We are waiting for your answer. Fortunately, we are not holding our breath, or we could die of asphyxiation.
Best possible personal regards,
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro <vrangelrib at yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Barad,
I have no interest in buying Pamela Mountbatten's book. You made a statement that you claim is based on that book. It is up to you to prove the truth of that claim --- if it is based on that book, please cite the exact passage that is relevant. You can quote up to 400 words without violating copyright laws.

So please go to it. We are waiting.
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro

"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Victor,

Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book
online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.

Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.

Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad


Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me:

Dear Dr. Barad,

To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-18 08:35:25 UTC
Permalink
Dear Victor,



This has reference to your message titled Gandhi (Message no 7 dated Sunday
17 February 2008) regarding book authored by Pamela Mountbatten.



Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.



If you find the book too costly to buy, please try if you can get low cost
edition of this book which I am not aware off and still if you don't want to
buy the book...forget it. With this explanation I would rather say you can
continue to wait for weeks, months, and years holding your breath or
otherwise..



Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.



Best regards,



Dr. U. G. Barad





Here are follow up messages of Victor and my response to them:



Victor wrote: Dear Dr. Barad,



It is now a week since I asked you to provide us with the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used, that led you to make certain derogatory remarks
about persons who are dead, and so not able to defend themselves against
lies and calumnies.

Have you found the passage yet? Do you think you will ever find it?
Are you hoping Goanetters will forget what you wrote, if you duck the issue
long enough?

Come on, Dr. Barad! We are waiting for your answer. Fortunately, we
are not holding our breath, or we could die of asphyxiation.

Best possible personal regards,

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro



Victor Rangel-Ribeiro wrote: Dear Dr. Barad,

I have no interest in buying Pamela Mountbatten's book. You made a
statement that you claim is based on that book. It is up to you to prove the
truth of that claim --- if it is based on that book, please cite the exact
passage that is relevant. You can quote up to 400 words without violating
copyright laws.



So please go to it. We are waiting.

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro



"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:Dear Victor,



Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book

online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.



Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.



Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..



Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad





Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me: Dear Dr. Barad,



To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-02-21 02:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dr. Barad,
Now that you have shown me how to complete my admittedly deficient education I feel better already.

But days have passed, and you still are not able to find the quote from Pamela Mountbatten's book that would prove the truth of your allegations. Have you lost your copy? If so, why don't you buy another? If you can't afford it, why don't you look for a cheaper copy?

Of course, you have two other options. You can admit you were mistaken, and misread a passage. Or you can say your memory played you a trick. That at least would be honest.

Regards,
Victor (who, alas, still is not qualified to put "Dr." in front of his name)

"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:


Dear Victor

This has reference to your message titled Gandhi (Message no 7 dated Sunday
17 February 2008) regarding book authored by Pamela Mountbatten.

Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.

If you find the book too costly to buy, please try if you can get low cost
edition of this book which I am not aware off and still if you don't want to
buy the book...forget it. With this explanation I would rather say you can
continue to wait for weeks, months, and years holding your breath or
otherwise..

Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.
Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
els verwimp
2008-02-02 14:03:42 UTC
Permalink
dear all,

for quite some time now I am rather upset reading some thoughtless messages about religion and how good christianity is and how poor and barbaric and inferior all other religions (specially the hindu religion and definitely islam) are. I do know that these words are not used literaly in any of the posts sent to Goanet. But just to read between the lines of what 'some' people write gives me a rather uncomfortable feeling.

Every religion can be abused.
It is easy for us to look at what is going on in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saoudi-Arabia, Irak, Iran, ... Belgium, Spain, England, ... in the name of islam.
We can also look on what is going on in the Middle East and how some Israeli people (government) terrorise people in the name of a holy book and that this used to be a 'promised land'. Promised? By who?
Anyhow, it will definitely be a lot easier for many of you people to look at what is going on in some parts of India also in the name of religion against certain minorities.

In Goa many people just seem to ignore for instance the inquisition. It is necessary to know the 'facts' in order to move on. Talking about the inquisition doesn't mean that you are blaming christian religion. On the contrary you are blaming something that is completely gone out of hand and has nothing to do with religion but only with power and politics. Ever heard about the 'liberation theology' in Latin America? It is also known as Christian socialism and it focuses on Christ not only the redeemer but also the 'liberator' of the oppressed. This movement which was very active and was growing pretty fast in Latin America was of course harshly warned by Pope John Paul II (a saint???) and his successor Pope Benedict XVI. Poor people, the lowest of the lowest were uplifted by many ordinary local priests while the bishops and the cardinals were drinking their wine and talking politics and smoking their Havana's with those in power. In my opinion these brave priests are the true christians.

I guess that people in these uncertain times (worldwide) deserve strong, confident, honest leadership with a true mission and vision. Unfortunately nowhere to be found so far. I appreciated a post on this list (don't know who wrote it anymore) talking about the importance of Dr. Martin Luther King. Perhaps people should try to find a way towards dialogue, which sometimes might be very difficult and dangerous specially when your opponent isn't willing. It surprises me that nobody on this list ever mentioned the 60th deathanniversary of Gandhi. It seems he and his thoughts, believes, ... have slowly vanished over the Ganges and into the sea. Unfortunately, cause he is needed.

Take care
Martin Van Camp - Duarte
Belgium
Bhandare
2008-02-02 17:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear Martin:

Sixy years after his assasinaton, what we need is a
critical analysis of the mans politics and principles
and actions rather tha merely hoisting him on a
pedestal and worshipping him. We Indians have a
tendency to hero worship and gandhi is the ultimate
hero.

While it is true that he was a great man and espoused
many noble causes, he was far from perfect. His
assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.

The congress prty had a selfish interest in
perpetuating this legacy of gandhi and capitalise on
it politically. That is the reason why they have never
allowed a honest discussion about the man. But now
Indians are increasingly getting frustrated with his
ideas and and I am sure in another generation Gandhi
would lose his significance even more.

regards

B




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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-03 09:43:59 UTC
Permalink
I read Martin Van Camp ? Duarte Belgium - titled ? Gandhi twice. And I felt
the posting is quite okay except for his 3rd Para which makes passing
reference to Goa Inquisition, although he does not go further.?

This 3rd Para as is used by the writer reads the following lines:

In Goa many people just seem to ignore for instance the inquisition. It is
necessary to know the 'facts' in order to move on. Talking about the
inquisition doesn't mean that you are blaming christian religion. On the
contrary you are blaming something that is completely gone out of hand and
has nothing to do with religion but only with power and politics. Ever heard
about the 'liberation theology' in Latin America? It is also known as
Christian socialism and it focuses on Christ not only the redeemer but also
the 'liberator' of the oppressed. This movement which was very active and
was growing pretty fast in Latin America was of course harshly warned by
Pope John Paul II (a saint???) and his successor Pope Benedict XVI. Poor
people, the lowest of the lowest were uplifted by many ordinary local
priests while the bishops and the cardinals were drinking their wine and
talking politics and smoking their Havana's with those in power. In my
opinion these brave priests are the true?Christians.

My rejoinder to this 3rd Para would be:

In times of Inquisition in Goa, Christians destroyed a very large number of
Hindu Temples, and wrote about this destruction in the memoirs kept by
them.? For a comprehensive list of the various Hindu temples in Goa
destroyed by the Portuguese Christian soldiers, refer to the book - Hindu
Temples of Goa - by Adv. Rui Gomes Pereira.? It will be an eye-opener to
so-called secularists who shed countless crocodile tears over demolition of
Babri Masjid.?

Further mention of atrocities committed by the Christian fanatics on Hindus
can be found in the Book "Goa Inquisition" by A. K. Priolkar.

There is also a book in Marathi on Inquisition by Adv. Laxmikant Bhembre,
father of Adv. Uday Bhembre, written when he was under deportation to
Portugal.?This book brings out all the references as is preserved in
Portugal Libraries with authentication.

Is the wanton destruction in Goa carried out by Christian fanatics to be
forgotten altogether??

Do not forget the maxim, 'History repeats itself" and "those who forget
history are bound to repeat it".

Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad
Bhandare
2008-02-03 15:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear george:

were bhagat singh , rajguru and sukhdev animals too?

regards

B




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Venantius Pinto
2008-02-03 22:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Bandare is right here. His point about Godse being a misguided patriot
should not lead to such a broad comparison ranging from the world's
murderers to suicide bombers. I too am not comfortable in casting
Godse as a criminal. Upon having assassinated Gandhi -- he became
culpable for the crime he committed, as a patriot -- towards
maintaining a certain partisan perspective. This is akin to one man's
terrorist being another man's freedom fighter. Taking a life has been
a crime for centuries now, that is true. But crime, criminal behavior
and criminality have to be seen in their contexts. This is an area for
fine discernment and would be an involved discourse that I am unable
to take on at present.

Bandare is actually being very gracious in even calling NG a misguided
patriot. I see both Nathuram Godse and Gandhi as patriots, pure and
simple with all the connotations attached to the term. Different
directions, different concessions, that's all. Nowadays very few of us
would consider taking on the appellation of a patriot. It has lost its
early embracing power and meaning.

Bhagat Singh, Rajguru and Sukhdev could not be criminals in the eyes
of the Indians and we should never see them as criminals. And how
about Lal, Bal, Pal, Chandra Sekhar Azad, Veer Savarkar, Rash Behari
Bose, Bagha Jatin, and Deshbandu Chittaranjan Das --- all patriots?!
Yes. And fine ones at that, inspite in at least one exenuating case,
practically a bigot. The British can arrogate themselves in seeing
these individuals as criminals, but we cannot allow ourselves to do
so.

Other than that does anyone have any idea when the papers of the
Jallianwalla Baugh/Bagh massacre will be opened by the British?

venantius j pinto
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Gandhi
His [GANDHI'S] assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.
Wow! All the murderers, including suicide bombers, of this world will be pleased to know they are
misguided and not criminal. I am sure victims should feel better they were not killed by human
animals like Godse, but merely misguided folk.
Regards,
George
Bhandare
2008-02-04 02:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

I am glad you weighed in on this one. Nathuram Godse
assasinated Gandhi not for any personal gain. He did
it for what he believed was the greater good of the
country. He did not flee from the scene and was very
eloquent in describing his motives for killing gandhi.
Even while india was at a war with pakistan over
kashmir, gandhi blackmailed the govt to give pakistan
55 crore rupees , money which was used to fuel the war
against our nation. Godse considered that act as
treason and acted in order to safeguard national
interest.

Bhagat singh on the other hand killed a british police
offcer who was not involved in the assault on lala
lajpat rai.Instead of Saunders, he murdered
Scott.Later he fled from the police.

Who is a terrorist depends on whose version you want
to hear. A democratically elected Prezident Bush is
widely regarded as a "terrorist" for a large section
of the muslim world. On the other hand Osama is hailed
as a "revolutionary hero" and a "lion of resistance"
The same is true for every other revolutionary or
terrorist.

George Pinto has now qualified his response. So
according to him, war is exempt. So it is ok for
America to kill vietnamese civilians by napalm, as
long as it is war. Or poor afghans by predator drone
attacks. Quite interesting!

On this very forum we have had many people
enthusiastically refrring to the lynching of a quarry
owner by a mob of villagers in Saleli, or stoming a
mining compny property in Colomb as a people's
movement.
Yet the same people would probably describe the
storming of the babri masjid as 'hindutva fascism...
the background is identical...civil laws were unable
to meet the aspirations of the people.

The only point I am making is : We can not treat Godse
any separately from Bhagat Singh or Che or any other
revolutionary.

regards



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Pravin Sabnis
2008-02-04 02:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bhandare
were bhagat singh , rajguru and sukhdev animals too?
regards
B
All human beings are animals. So there.
Bhagat, Rajguru, Sukhdev described themselves as marxists.
; - )
Bhagat Singh is very interesting to read and understand
He was hanged at the age of 23
He was a writer who turned rebel
check out what I wrote about an inspiring icon
http://monday-muse.blogspot.com/2007/09/synonymous-with-shaheed.html

regards
Pravin-da


5, 50, 500, 5000 - Store N number of mails in your inbox. Go to http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html
Miguel Braganza
2008-02-04 09:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Dears,

Great classification Chinmay Bhandare,
Adolf Hitler is now the world's best known PATRIOT.
Perhaps Rockfeller Institute or Fundacao Gulbenkian will honour him
one of these days. Through his untimely death, he missed the Nobel
Prize for Medicine, bitter though it was ;-) The Nobel Prize is not
given posthumously.

I wonder why the HJS Dharmatej folks felicitate mini-patriots like
Rajendra Subhash Velingker, whose patriotism is limited to breaking
and/or defacing name plaques of streets in Fontainhas? Small people
have small minds and get small thrills, huh? For their sterling
performance, such patriots should at least be given the state's
Yashdamini Awards. That will have to await the change in dispensation.

One set of misguided patriots that I can recall are those patriot
missiles George Bush used in Iraq. ;-)

Mog asundi.

Miguel


Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 20:57:29 -0800 (PST)
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Gandhi

Wow! All the murderers, including suicide bombers, of this world will
be pleased to know they aremisguided and not criminal. I am sure
victims should feel better they were not killed by humananimals like
Godse, but merely misguided folk.
Regards,
George
His [GANDHI'S] assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.
--
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Miguel Braganza, S1 Gracinda Apts,
Rajvaddo, Mhapsa 403507 Goa
Ph 9822982676 miguelbraganza at yahoo.co.in
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Bhandare
2008-02-04 14:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to all those who responded on this topic. I will ignore the usual
suspects and respond to some interesting points made by Pravin, Venantius and george.

George, I am sorry for having misread you. Which war is just and which one is unjust is itself a difficult question. That bein said my point was that if killing a fellow human being is a crime then all our certified "heroes" like bhagat singh and others should be treated on par with Godse. Do you agree with this ?

Venantius, i am glad that you agree with me.The reason i called Godse a "misguided patriot" is simply because of a lack of any other good term. In fact because godse killed Gandhi , Gandhism got a fresh lease of life. Had Gandhi been allowed to experiment with his ideas maybe Gandhism would have died a quicker death.I would rather want gandhism dead than Gandhi.
Interestingly gandhi himself had called Chatrapati shivaji, rana pratap and Guru Gobind Singh as "misguided patriots" himself.

Pravin, can you please explain why Bhagat singh is a hero and Godse isnt? Godse too died at the young age of 39. Lke Bhagat singh he refused to plead innocent and forbid anyone from filing a mercy petition on his behalf. Both acted to safeguard their country. I am curius where and why you draw the line.

In fact the administration acted cruelly in Godse's case and refused to hang him in Pune thereby deprivng his old parents a chance to meet him for the last time.
The date was kept secret and the ground where he was hanged was ploughed over to revent a memorial coming up at the spot.
The Congress government proscribed his brothers writings and stiffled all discussin about the man and vilified him no end.
The RSS was accused of being complicit and banned and so was savarkar. Bothe were acquitted honorably because evidence suggested Godse was acting alone.The ban was lifted to.

regards

B






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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-04 13:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Going by different versions expressed in the net, I thought I should share
some more information on Gandhi to Goanet.

Back ground information: Sonia Maino, after she got married to Rajiv Gandhi,
when he was studying in England, got the new name as Sonia Gandhi. This
Sonia Gandhi is not at all related to Mahatma Gandhi. Rather Mahatma Gandhi
and Indira Gandhi have no blood relationship at all. Indira Nehru got
married to one person by name Firoz Ghandy, and he was not a Parsi but a
Muslim. After the marriage of Indira with Firoz also in England, both
decided to adopt the surname Gandhi. And that's how Indira from that day was
know as Indira Gandhi wife of Feroze Gandhi and her dynasty i.e. Gandhi
dynasty started and is continuing till date. But many Goans are still under
the impression that Indira Gandhi is hailing from Mahatma Gandhi roots. And
this might be one of the causes of extending blind support to Gandhi family
in power, while Mahatma Gandhi's family members are still without any
recognition!

Another Factual Reality: In a book titled Famous Trials of India by Justice
G. D. Khosla who was one of the judges during the trial of Nathuram Godse,
the said Justice Khosla writes in one of the chapter (on Nathuram Godse
trial), saying "Had the audience in the court been converted into a jury, I
have no doubt that they would have unanimously returned the verdict of
Nathuram Godse is not GUILTY "This is what the pubic sympathy was for
Nathuram Godse at the relevant time.

A famous Indian Author who writes in English and is famous the world over
for his writings, namely Colonel Manohar Malgaonkar, a retired Colonel of
the Indian Army, also very much conversant with Goa having a book written on
Goa, to which the cartoons for illustration have been drawn by the world
famous Cartoonist of Goan origin Mr. Mario Miranda, writes in one of his
novels, namely "the Men who killed Mahatma Gandhi", saying "During the
famous fast unto death of Mahatma Gandhi in 1947 to compel the Government of
India to disburse 55 Crores of rupees to Pakistan immediately after the
Partition of India, Hindu refugees from Pakistan who were leaving in refugee
camps in Delhi were seen shouting "GANDHI MARTA HAI TO MARNE DO". Although
it is a novel, it has been based on meticulous field inquiries by the said
author. This quotation by Colonel Manohar Malgaonkar also shows what the
level of public hatred / sympathy towards Mahatma Gandhi was then.
Incidentally, the said Col. Manohar Malgaokar was writing a regular column
in Sunday edition of Navhind Times of Goa, for many years, till about three
four years back. He is a landlord of a village called "Jagalbet" near Londa,
on the road to Supa and Dandeli, and was a regular visitor to Goa.

One who is interested in knowing more about factual realities prevailing at
the relevant time and to know the other side of the story, should read the
following books: (1) Gandhi Hatya ani Mi, in Marathi by Gopal Godse, brother
of Nathuram Godse. The English version of this Book is "Gandhiji's Murder
and After (this book brings out all the arguments and explanations given by
Nathuram Godse during his trial in the court. The statements quoted in this
book exactly matches with the one in Justice Khosla's book - Famous Trials
of India); (2) 55 Kotiche Bali, in Marathi, its English Version being May It
Please Your Honour. (In this book Godse writes that even when India was at a
war with Pakistan over Kashmir issue, Gandhi's huger strike blackmailed the
Government of India to give Pakistan the sum of Rupees 55 Crores. This sum
was rightly denied to be given even by Sardar Vallabh bhai Patel. Later, as
Sardar Patel predicted, that 55 Crores of Rupees were used by Pakistan to
fight endless wars against India. The Hunger strike of Gandhi was literary
proved to be a blackmailing tactics against India and was also considered as
an act of disloyalty towards safeguarding the interest of the nation. It was
also concluded by most Indians as an act trying to show that - I am above
nation. This book also brings out arguments and explanations given by
Nathuram Godse during his trial in the court). Both these books are authored
by Gopal Godse and are running in 18th edition as of date.

Without taking much space of Goa Net, I conclude saying, had it not for
Jawaharlal Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi combine, our India would have continued
to be one single nation not bifurcated into India and Pakistan. This is
because Nehru's weakness was taken advantage of by Lady Mountbatten who was
then the Vice-Roy of India. Now whether bifurcation of India was good or
otherwise is a different question.

By bringing this reality before Goa Net I am in no way trying to tarnish the
images of Mahatma Gandhi and Indira Gandhi's family, but only drawing
attention to the other side of the story, so that readers with an analytical
mind will be compelled to think.

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
Vinay Natekar
2008-02-05 06:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Dear Chinmay
Your definition of a misguided patriot applies much
better to many terrorists/criminals of today e.g.
suicide bombers. The fact remains that whoever these
people are they have murdered another human being.
They are criminals under secular law. The only type of
killing that law excuses is that in self-defense, or
in defense of one's country. You appear to be
justifying the murder of Gandhi for purely ideological
reasons, or for some speculative unproven charge
against him, most likely based on an ideology with
which you sympathize.
Response

In legal and social terms Godse can be termed as a murderer, a fanatic
RSS activist and his crime of killing a human being can not be condoned
may it be Mahatma Gandhi or any ordinary person. Even the most imperfect
man has to come to this path eventually. Our responsibility is not to
cut his life short, thereby stopping his progression which should be
left to divine dispensation.

Bhagavad Gita says, no action is by itself sinful or meritorious. It is
the motive in the heart of the doer which leads him to take a particular
action that is the determining factor.

I am just forwarding few lines from Godse's biography excerpted from
Pradeep Dalvi's controversial play 'Mi Nathuram Godse Boltoy.'

"I was born on May 19, 1910 to Vinayakrao and Laxmi. I had three
brothers, but none survived. After my parent's prayer to God their
fourth son that is me, Nathuram survived because my parents were
destined to suffer for their young son's death and Gandhi was destined
to be assassinated.

I never stole in my childhood, so there was no question of apologising
to my father. I never took a vow of celibacy as I was already practicing
celibacy. I was moving around the refugee camps and helping the
destitute with food and clothes. But I did not wander half-naked because
the refugees were naked. I never spun yarn, never cleaned my toilet,
never observed silence till I was hanged. There was only one common
factor in Gandhi's life and mine. We were both the cause of each other's
death. He wanted to live for his principles and I was prepared to die
for my principles."



Vinay
Bhandare
2008-02-05 13:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

First of all i did not justify Gandhi's kiling. I would have called godse a patriot and not 'misguided'

In fact i said that by kiling Gandhi, Godse gave his idelogy a fresh lease of life. I tried to give a reason from Godse's point of view why he did what he did .
The otherpont i made was that if taking anther persons life (except in self defence and as george says in a just war) is wrong than all our revolutionary heroeslike bhagat singh and others should be treated on par with Godse.

Also my reason about Godse s far from 'uncritical' It may very well be diametically opposite to your views but in my humble opinion it doesnt make it uncritical.

Regarding Godses's motive ,the cabiet decided to withold the money to pakistan because of the war.gandhi went on his fast to death..the govt succumbed to the pressure tactics and gave pakistan the money...thw money which was used to fuel the war...proving again that when it came to national interest the congress was ready to satisfy gandhis illgical demands at the cost of national security.

what part of this is exactly 'speculative' or 'based on ideology'


As for Jose Colaco, can he provide any evidence that Godse attacked gandhi before ? to the best of my knowledge there was one unsuccesful attack on gandhi a week back. It was jointly caried out by the godse brothers, madanlas pahwa, vishnupant karkare.
Can jose provide the details of any attack before that?

As for Selma cardoso , have you noticed how cleverly she put the word RSS in Jose's mouth? but that is besides the point.







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Venantius Pinto
2008-02-05 12:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Bhandare,
You are being clinically truthful when you say "I would rather want
gandhism dead than Gandhi." I see your point -- events would have
swung differently if Gandhi was alive; the very concept of Gandhism
would not have existed and in so being, not a construct to benefit
from -- for certain quarters, or the rallying force for millions.
Perhaps in Gandhi's place or alternate space someone else would have
emerged as a "leveller or strongman."

venantius
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 06:58:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Bhandare <bhandare1978 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Gandhi
The reason i called Godse a "misguided patriot" is simply because of a
lack of any other good term. In fact because godse killed Gandhi ,
Gandhism got a fresh lease of life. Had Gandhi been allowed to
experiment with his ideas maybe Gandhism would have died a quicker
death.I would rather want gandhism dead than Gandhi.
Bhandare
2008-02-07 15:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

I submit that all 3 websites that you have provided are ideologically driven ones. The last one is driven by "hindutva" while the first 2 are driven by "gandhivaad"...The second one is merely a criticism of a play on Nathuram while the first a hagiography which cleverly leaves out the unpleasant facts about gandhi.

Let me comment on the content of both the websites that you have referred to in support of your claim
------------------------------------------------------------------------
the second website says the following, and I qreproduce verbatim:

QUOTE"
Gandhiji started his fast on January 13, 1948 at five minutes to noon. On the third day of the fast, that is on 15th January, the Government of India declared its decision of handing over to Pakistan its share of Rs. 55 crore from the cash balances immediately. Yet Gandhiji did not withdraw his fast since its second objective was to establish peace between Hindus and Muslims in Delhi. ENDQUOE


This clearly mentions that the SECOND condition was HinduMuslim unity. what was the first condition? Does it not appear from the text that the first condition was "giving 55 crores to pakistan'?

also please think about the reason why the Indian government which had withheld the money because of the aggression reversed its decison, if not for gandhi's pressure tactics.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
regarding the first website , it gives 6 "facts" to suport its claims.

the first four are "conjecture" or hearsay" and can not be independently verified. the next 2 are reproduced below:

1. The press release of the government of India did not have any mention thereof.

This statement is a blatant lie.

In the book ,"Dr. Rajendra Prasad: Correspondence and Select documents, Vol. 8" the Governemnt Communique is printed verbatim ( as appearing in the Hindustan Times on jan 16th)

Please read carefully this relevant page http://tinyurl.com/252xoa

The communique clearly states that decision to hand over 55 crores minus expenses to pakistan was motivated by its desire to end the suffering of the nations soul and in response to the appeal made by gandhi.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.The list of assurances given by the committee headed by Dr. Rajendra Prasad to persuade Gandhiji to give up his fast did not include it.

This is the kind of insidious propaganda carried out by the gandhians for over half a century. The statement is true but only partly . When gandhi went on his fast he had two main conditions, the 55 crores issue and restoring hindu muslim unity ion Delhi. Even Godse mentions this in his deposition.

The assurances , which can be found here, http://tinyurl.com/yubgsl, were given on 18th when the govt had already accepted gandhis first condition of honoring the 55 crore pledge on the 15th of january. The reason gandhi did not sip his juice on 15th was because the second condition was not met. This was satisfied by the assurances given by the representatives of the various political organizations on 18th.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking forward to hear your comments. In case you are interested I will provide a detailed account of the bogus statements made in the two websites that you have circulated.

regards

Chinmay













The list of assurances given by the committee headed by Dr. Rajendra Prasad to persuade Gandhiji to give up his fast did not include it.







regards

chinmay



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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-08 06:09:55 UTC
Permalink
I need to explain the second last Para picked up from my posting under
subject Gandhi by Elisabeth Carvalho in her message No 2 in Goanet Digest,
Vol 3, Issue 150 Sent on Wednesday, February 06, 2008



Elisabeth rushed with her reply trying to silence me by brain and emotions
for a second and in that attempt she tried to shift the goal post to some
other point other than the point which was picked up by her from my posting!




Pamela Mountbatten showed her guts and gumption to talk about ones' family,
especially a mother's relationships in the public. On this count, perhaps
one of the rarest accounts of describing relationship is that of Pamela
Mountbatten's depiction of her mother Edwina, wife of Lord Mountbatten the
last Viceroy of India and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru's 'love affair' in her
book - India Remembered: A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the
Transfer of Power.



Pamela's approach in her book also gives an indication that emotions,
sentiments have no value when one talk, writes, discusses about the facts
and incidences that occurred in the past.



What Pamela mentioned in her book is what I had quoted in my posting. Once
you read that book you will get much more information than what I have
shared to the net. Nehru - Edwina relations are known all over India much
prior to even Pamela wrote the book! And if you still differ with what
Pamela wrote about Nehru - Edwina relation you could write to her expressing
your feelings, sentiments, etc...



Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad
Bhandare
2008-02-08 14:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

I have provided you with clear evidence why at least 2 of those facts are blatant lies or half truths at best.Can you comment on them?

I have provided references to the writings of Rajendra prasad, the first president of India as well as the official communique issued by the indian government which clearly mentions that it reversed its decision to withheld the money due to pakistan because of gandhijis fast.

I agree with you that the hindu jagruti site is crude and has more rhetoric than facts. I have already contacted them and should time permit i will take it upon myself to provide better researched content to their websites.

As regards your suspicion, i am afraid you are wrong. I have researched this issue a lot in the past long before i came on goanet. i am willing to argue point by point with you or anyone else on this, except of course a few of the usual suspects that i ignore.

regards

Chinmay



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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-09 12:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Again Selma is shifting the goal post to somewhere else not sticking on to
the point that was brought up by her. I know truth is always bitter. Selma
have a look at the archives, Nehru's intelligence, Bill Clinton, Monica and
or Middle East peace were not at all under discussion. As regards Clinton
and Monica world knows what's what....



If you want to start new thread for discussion on Bill Clinton, Monica and
or Middle East you may do so with the permission of Goanet for these are not
Goa related issue. If you start I don't mind contributing to the thread.



But good to see Selma back on net more these days.....



Best regards,



Dr. U. G. Barad





Selma wrote to me: Arrey Dotor Barad,



I am not contesting Lady Mountbatten's relationship with Nehru, I am only
making the point that neither

Mrs Carvalho nor Lady Mountbatten are or were capable of "trying to silence"
anyone's brains and emotions,

least of all a man like Nehru's. Nehru was an intellectual par excellence,
and holding his relationship with Edwina responsible for the creation of
Pakistan, is like saying Bill Clinton couldn't bring about Middle East peace
because he was occupied with Monica.



selma
Bhandare
2008-02-09 15:54:34 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

You say:
"Furthermore, your claim that the money (55 crores) was used to fuel the war against our nation seems to be speculation that cannot be supported by conclusive evidence."

I have no answer for you on this one, but common sense will dictate that if a impoverished nation is giving money in the middle of a conflict with a bigger and stronger opponent that that money will be used in some way to support the war effort.

regards

chinmay




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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-10 08:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Victor,

Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book
online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.

Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.

Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad


Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me:

Dear Dr. Barad,

To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-02-17 15:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dr. Barad,
It is now a week since I asked you to provide us with the exact words Pamela Mountbatten used, that led you to make certain derogatory remarks about persons who are dead, and so not able to defend themselves against lies and calumnies.
Have you found the passage yet? Do you think you will ever find it? Are you hoping Goanetters will forget what you wrote, if you duck the issue long enough?
Come on, Dr. Barad! We are waiting for your answer. Fortunately, we are not holding our breath, or we could die of asphyxiation.
Best possible personal regards,
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro <vrangelrib at yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Barad,
I have no interest in buying Pamela Mountbatten's book. You made a statement that you claim is based on that book. It is up to you to prove the truth of that claim --- if it is based on that book, please cite the exact passage that is relevant. You can quote up to 400 words without violating copyright laws.

So please go to it. We are waiting.
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro

"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Victor,

Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book
online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.

Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.

Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad


Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me:

Dear Dr. Barad,

To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-18 08:35:25 UTC
Permalink
Dear Victor,



This has reference to your message titled Gandhi (Message no 7 dated Sunday
17 February 2008) regarding book authored by Pamela Mountbatten.



Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.



If you find the book too costly to buy, please try if you can get low cost
edition of this book which I am not aware off and still if you don't want to
buy the book...forget it. With this explanation I would rather say you can
continue to wait for weeks, months, and years holding your breath or
otherwise..



Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.



Best regards,



Dr. U. G. Barad





Here are follow up messages of Victor and my response to them:



Victor wrote: Dear Dr. Barad,



It is now a week since I asked you to provide us with the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used, that led you to make certain derogatory remarks
about persons who are dead, and so not able to defend themselves against
lies and calumnies.

Have you found the passage yet? Do you think you will ever find it?
Are you hoping Goanetters will forget what you wrote, if you duck the issue
long enough?

Come on, Dr. Barad! We are waiting for your answer. Fortunately, we
are not holding our breath, or we could die of asphyxiation.

Best possible personal regards,

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro



Victor Rangel-Ribeiro wrote: Dear Dr. Barad,

I have no interest in buying Pamela Mountbatten's book. You made a
statement that you claim is based on that book. It is up to you to prove the
truth of that claim --- if it is based on that book, please cite the exact
passage that is relevant. You can quote up to 400 words without violating
copyright laws.



So please go to it. We are waiting.

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro



"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:Dear Victor,



Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book

online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.



Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.



Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..



Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad





Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me: Dear Dr. Barad,



To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-02-21 02:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dr. Barad,
Now that you have shown me how to complete my admittedly deficient education I feel better already.

But days have passed, and you still are not able to find the quote from Pamela Mountbatten's book that would prove the truth of your allegations. Have you lost your copy? If so, why don't you buy another? If you can't afford it, why don't you look for a cheaper copy?

Of course, you have two other options. You can admit you were mistaken, and misread a passage. Or you can say your memory played you a trick. That at least would be honest.

Regards,
Victor (who, alas, still is not qualified to put "Dr." in front of his name)

"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:


Dear Victor

This has reference to your message titled Gandhi (Message no 7 dated Sunday
17 February 2008) regarding book authored by Pamela Mountbatten.

Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.

If you find the book too costly to buy, please try if you can get low cost
edition of this book which I am not aware off and still if you don't want to
buy the book...forget it. With this explanation I would rather say you can
continue to wait for weeks, months, and years holding your breath or
otherwise..

Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.
Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
els verwimp
2008-02-02 14:03:42 UTC
Permalink
dear all,

for quite some time now I am rather upset reading some thoughtless messages about religion and how good christianity is and how poor and barbaric and inferior all other religions (specially the hindu religion and definitely islam) are. I do know that these words are not used literaly in any of the posts sent to Goanet. But just to read between the lines of what 'some' people write gives me a rather uncomfortable feeling.

Every religion can be abused.
It is easy for us to look at what is going on in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saoudi-Arabia, Irak, Iran, ... Belgium, Spain, England, ... in the name of islam.
We can also look on what is going on in the Middle East and how some Israeli people (government) terrorise people in the name of a holy book and that this used to be a 'promised land'. Promised? By who?
Anyhow, it will definitely be a lot easier for many of you people to look at what is going on in some parts of India also in the name of religion against certain minorities.

In Goa many people just seem to ignore for instance the inquisition. It is necessary to know the 'facts' in order to move on. Talking about the inquisition doesn't mean that you are blaming christian religion. On the contrary you are blaming something that is completely gone out of hand and has nothing to do with religion but only with power and politics. Ever heard about the 'liberation theology' in Latin America? It is also known as Christian socialism and it focuses on Christ not only the redeemer but also the 'liberator' of the oppressed. This movement which was very active and was growing pretty fast in Latin America was of course harshly warned by Pope John Paul II (a saint???) and his successor Pope Benedict XVI. Poor people, the lowest of the lowest were uplifted by many ordinary local priests while the bishops and the cardinals were drinking their wine and talking politics and smoking their Havana's with those in power. In my opinion these brave priests are the true christians.

I guess that people in these uncertain times (worldwide) deserve strong, confident, honest leadership with a true mission and vision. Unfortunately nowhere to be found so far. I appreciated a post on this list (don't know who wrote it anymore) talking about the importance of Dr. Martin Luther King. Perhaps people should try to find a way towards dialogue, which sometimes might be very difficult and dangerous specially when your opponent isn't willing. It surprises me that nobody on this list ever mentioned the 60th deathanniversary of Gandhi. It seems he and his thoughts, believes, ... have slowly vanished over the Ganges and into the sea. Unfortunately, cause he is needed.

Take care
Martin Van Camp - Duarte
Belgium
Bhandare
2008-02-02 17:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear Martin:

Sixy years after his assasinaton, what we need is a
critical analysis of the mans politics and principles
and actions rather tha merely hoisting him on a
pedestal and worshipping him. We Indians have a
tendency to hero worship and gandhi is the ultimate
hero.

While it is true that he was a great man and espoused
many noble causes, he was far from perfect. His
assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.

The congress prty had a selfish interest in
perpetuating this legacy of gandhi and capitalise on
it politically. That is the reason why they have never
allowed a honest discussion about the man. But now
Indians are increasingly getting frustrated with his
ideas and and I am sure in another generation Gandhi
would lose his significance even more.

regards

B




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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-03 09:43:59 UTC
Permalink
I read Martin Van Camp ? Duarte Belgium - titled ? Gandhi twice. And I felt
the posting is quite okay except for his 3rd Para which makes passing
reference to Goa Inquisition, although he does not go further.?

This 3rd Para as is used by the writer reads the following lines:

In Goa many people just seem to ignore for instance the inquisition. It is
necessary to know the 'facts' in order to move on. Talking about the
inquisition doesn't mean that you are blaming christian religion. On the
contrary you are blaming something that is completely gone out of hand and
has nothing to do with religion but only with power and politics. Ever heard
about the 'liberation theology' in Latin America? It is also known as
Christian socialism and it focuses on Christ not only the redeemer but also
the 'liberator' of the oppressed. This movement which was very active and
was growing pretty fast in Latin America was of course harshly warned by
Pope John Paul II (a saint???) and his successor Pope Benedict XVI. Poor
people, the lowest of the lowest were uplifted by many ordinary local
priests while the bishops and the cardinals were drinking their wine and
talking politics and smoking their Havana's with those in power. In my
opinion these brave priests are the true?Christians.

My rejoinder to this 3rd Para would be:

In times of Inquisition in Goa, Christians destroyed a very large number of
Hindu Temples, and wrote about this destruction in the memoirs kept by
them.? For a comprehensive list of the various Hindu temples in Goa
destroyed by the Portuguese Christian soldiers, refer to the book - Hindu
Temples of Goa - by Adv. Rui Gomes Pereira.? It will be an eye-opener to
so-called secularists who shed countless crocodile tears over demolition of
Babri Masjid.?

Further mention of atrocities committed by the Christian fanatics on Hindus
can be found in the Book "Goa Inquisition" by A. K. Priolkar.

There is also a book in Marathi on Inquisition by Adv. Laxmikant Bhembre,
father of Adv. Uday Bhembre, written when he was under deportation to
Portugal.?This book brings out all the references as is preserved in
Portugal Libraries with authentication.

Is the wanton destruction in Goa carried out by Christian fanatics to be
forgotten altogether??

Do not forget the maxim, 'History repeats itself" and "those who forget
history are bound to repeat it".

Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad
Bhandare
2008-02-03 15:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear george:

were bhagat singh , rajguru and sukhdev animals too?

regards

B




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Venantius Pinto
2008-02-03 22:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Bandare is right here. His point about Godse being a misguided patriot
should not lead to such a broad comparison ranging from the world's
murderers to suicide bombers. I too am not comfortable in casting
Godse as a criminal. Upon having assassinated Gandhi -- he became
culpable for the crime he committed, as a patriot -- towards
maintaining a certain partisan perspective. This is akin to one man's
terrorist being another man's freedom fighter. Taking a life has been
a crime for centuries now, that is true. But crime, criminal behavior
and criminality have to be seen in their contexts. This is an area for
fine discernment and would be an involved discourse that I am unable
to take on at present.

Bandare is actually being very gracious in even calling NG a misguided
patriot. I see both Nathuram Godse and Gandhi as patriots, pure and
simple with all the connotations attached to the term. Different
directions, different concessions, that's all. Nowadays very few of us
would consider taking on the appellation of a patriot. It has lost its
early embracing power and meaning.

Bhagat Singh, Rajguru and Sukhdev could not be criminals in the eyes
of the Indians and we should never see them as criminals. And how
about Lal, Bal, Pal, Chandra Sekhar Azad, Veer Savarkar, Rash Behari
Bose, Bagha Jatin, and Deshbandu Chittaranjan Das --- all patriots?!
Yes. And fine ones at that, inspite in at least one exenuating case,
practically a bigot. The British can arrogate themselves in seeing
these individuals as criminals, but we cannot allow ourselves to do
so.

Other than that does anyone have any idea when the papers of the
Jallianwalla Baugh/Bagh massacre will be opened by the British?

venantius j pinto
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Gandhi
His [GANDHI'S] assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.
Wow! All the murderers, including suicide bombers, of this world will be pleased to know they are
misguided and not criminal. I am sure victims should feel better they were not killed by human
animals like Godse, but merely misguided folk.
Regards,
George
Bhandare
2008-02-04 02:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

I am glad you weighed in on this one. Nathuram Godse
assasinated Gandhi not for any personal gain. He did
it for what he believed was the greater good of the
country. He did not flee from the scene and was very
eloquent in describing his motives for killing gandhi.
Even while india was at a war with pakistan over
kashmir, gandhi blackmailed the govt to give pakistan
55 crore rupees , money which was used to fuel the war
against our nation. Godse considered that act as
treason and acted in order to safeguard national
interest.

Bhagat singh on the other hand killed a british police
offcer who was not involved in the assault on lala
lajpat rai.Instead of Saunders, he murdered
Scott.Later he fled from the police.

Who is a terrorist depends on whose version you want
to hear. A democratically elected Prezident Bush is
widely regarded as a "terrorist" for a large section
of the muslim world. On the other hand Osama is hailed
as a "revolutionary hero" and a "lion of resistance"
The same is true for every other revolutionary or
terrorist.

George Pinto has now qualified his response. So
according to him, war is exempt. So it is ok for
America to kill vietnamese civilians by napalm, as
long as it is war. Or poor afghans by predator drone
attacks. Quite interesting!

On this very forum we have had many people
enthusiastically refrring to the lynching of a quarry
owner by a mob of villagers in Saleli, or stoming a
mining compny property in Colomb as a people's
movement.
Yet the same people would probably describe the
storming of the babri masjid as 'hindutva fascism...
the background is identical...civil laws were unable
to meet the aspirations of the people.

The only point I am making is : We can not treat Godse
any separately from Bhagat Singh or Che or any other
revolutionary.

regards



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Pravin Sabnis
2008-02-04 02:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bhandare
were bhagat singh , rajguru and sukhdev animals too?
regards
B
All human beings are animals. So there.
Bhagat, Rajguru, Sukhdev described themselves as marxists.
; - )
Bhagat Singh is very interesting to read and understand
He was hanged at the age of 23
He was a writer who turned rebel
check out what I wrote about an inspiring icon
http://monday-muse.blogspot.com/2007/09/synonymous-with-shaheed.html

regards
Pravin-da


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Miguel Braganza
2008-02-04 09:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Dears,

Great classification Chinmay Bhandare,
Adolf Hitler is now the world's best known PATRIOT.
Perhaps Rockfeller Institute or Fundacao Gulbenkian will honour him
one of these days. Through his untimely death, he missed the Nobel
Prize for Medicine, bitter though it was ;-) The Nobel Prize is not
given posthumously.

I wonder why the HJS Dharmatej folks felicitate mini-patriots like
Rajendra Subhash Velingker, whose patriotism is limited to breaking
and/or defacing name plaques of streets in Fontainhas? Small people
have small minds and get small thrills, huh? For their sterling
performance, such patriots should at least be given the state's
Yashdamini Awards. That will have to await the change in dispensation.

One set of misguided patriots that I can recall are those patriot
missiles George Bush used in Iraq. ;-)

Mog asundi.

Miguel


Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 20:57:29 -0800 (PST)
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Gandhi

Wow! All the murderers, including suicide bombers, of this world will
be pleased to know they aremisguided and not criminal. I am sure
victims should feel better they were not killed by humananimals like
Godse, but merely misguided folk.
Regards,
George
His [GANDHI'S] assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.
--
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Miguel Braganza, S1 Gracinda Apts,
Rajvaddo, Mhapsa 403507 Goa
Ph 9822982676 miguelbraganza at yahoo.co.in
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Bhandare
2008-02-04 14:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to all those who responded on this topic. I will ignore the usual
suspects and respond to some interesting points made by Pravin, Venantius and george.

George, I am sorry for having misread you. Which war is just and which one is unjust is itself a difficult question. That bein said my point was that if killing a fellow human being is a crime then all our certified "heroes" like bhagat singh and others should be treated on par with Godse. Do you agree with this ?

Venantius, i am glad that you agree with me.The reason i called Godse a "misguided patriot" is simply because of a lack of any other good term. In fact because godse killed Gandhi , Gandhism got a fresh lease of life. Had Gandhi been allowed to experiment with his ideas maybe Gandhism would have died a quicker death.I would rather want gandhism dead than Gandhi.
Interestingly gandhi himself had called Chatrapati shivaji, rana pratap and Guru Gobind Singh as "misguided patriots" himself.

Pravin, can you please explain why Bhagat singh is a hero and Godse isnt? Godse too died at the young age of 39. Lke Bhagat singh he refused to plead innocent and forbid anyone from filing a mercy petition on his behalf. Both acted to safeguard their country. I am curius where and why you draw the line.

In fact the administration acted cruelly in Godse's case and refused to hang him in Pune thereby deprivng his old parents a chance to meet him for the last time.
The date was kept secret and the ground where he was hanged was ploughed over to revent a memorial coming up at the spot.
The Congress government proscribed his brothers writings and stiffled all discussin about the man and vilified him no end.
The RSS was accused of being complicit and banned and so was savarkar. Bothe were acquitted honorably because evidence suggested Godse was acting alone.The ban was lifted to.

regards

B






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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-04 13:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Going by different versions expressed in the net, I thought I should share
some more information on Gandhi to Goanet.

Back ground information: Sonia Maino, after she got married to Rajiv Gandhi,
when he was studying in England, got the new name as Sonia Gandhi. This
Sonia Gandhi is not at all related to Mahatma Gandhi. Rather Mahatma Gandhi
and Indira Gandhi have no blood relationship at all. Indira Nehru got
married to one person by name Firoz Ghandy, and he was not a Parsi but a
Muslim. After the marriage of Indira with Firoz also in England, both
decided to adopt the surname Gandhi. And that's how Indira from that day was
know as Indira Gandhi wife of Feroze Gandhi and her dynasty i.e. Gandhi
dynasty started and is continuing till date. But many Goans are still under
the impression that Indira Gandhi is hailing from Mahatma Gandhi roots. And
this might be one of the causes of extending blind support to Gandhi family
in power, while Mahatma Gandhi's family members are still without any
recognition!

Another Factual Reality: In a book titled Famous Trials of India by Justice
G. D. Khosla who was one of the judges during the trial of Nathuram Godse,
the said Justice Khosla writes in one of the chapter (on Nathuram Godse
trial), saying "Had the audience in the court been converted into a jury, I
have no doubt that they would have unanimously returned the verdict of
Nathuram Godse is not GUILTY "This is what the pubic sympathy was for
Nathuram Godse at the relevant time.

A famous Indian Author who writes in English and is famous the world over
for his writings, namely Colonel Manohar Malgaonkar, a retired Colonel of
the Indian Army, also very much conversant with Goa having a book written on
Goa, to which the cartoons for illustration have been drawn by the world
famous Cartoonist of Goan origin Mr. Mario Miranda, writes in one of his
novels, namely "the Men who killed Mahatma Gandhi", saying "During the
famous fast unto death of Mahatma Gandhi in 1947 to compel the Government of
India to disburse 55 Crores of rupees to Pakistan immediately after the
Partition of India, Hindu refugees from Pakistan who were leaving in refugee
camps in Delhi were seen shouting "GANDHI MARTA HAI TO MARNE DO". Although
it is a novel, it has been based on meticulous field inquiries by the said
author. This quotation by Colonel Manohar Malgaonkar also shows what the
level of public hatred / sympathy towards Mahatma Gandhi was then.
Incidentally, the said Col. Manohar Malgaokar was writing a regular column
in Sunday edition of Navhind Times of Goa, for many years, till about three
four years back. He is a landlord of a village called "Jagalbet" near Londa,
on the road to Supa and Dandeli, and was a regular visitor to Goa.

One who is interested in knowing more about factual realities prevailing at
the relevant time and to know the other side of the story, should read the
following books: (1) Gandhi Hatya ani Mi, in Marathi by Gopal Godse, brother
of Nathuram Godse. The English version of this Book is "Gandhiji's Murder
and After (this book brings out all the arguments and explanations given by
Nathuram Godse during his trial in the court. The statements quoted in this
book exactly matches with the one in Justice Khosla's book - Famous Trials
of India); (2) 55 Kotiche Bali, in Marathi, its English Version being May It
Please Your Honour. (In this book Godse writes that even when India was at a
war with Pakistan over Kashmir issue, Gandhi's huger strike blackmailed the
Government of India to give Pakistan the sum of Rupees 55 Crores. This sum
was rightly denied to be given even by Sardar Vallabh bhai Patel. Later, as
Sardar Patel predicted, that 55 Crores of Rupees were used by Pakistan to
fight endless wars against India. The Hunger strike of Gandhi was literary
proved to be a blackmailing tactics against India and was also considered as
an act of disloyalty towards safeguarding the interest of the nation. It was
also concluded by most Indians as an act trying to show that - I am above
nation. This book also brings out arguments and explanations given by
Nathuram Godse during his trial in the court). Both these books are authored
by Gopal Godse and are running in 18th edition as of date.

Without taking much space of Goa Net, I conclude saying, had it not for
Jawaharlal Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi combine, our India would have continued
to be one single nation not bifurcated into India and Pakistan. This is
because Nehru's weakness was taken advantage of by Lady Mountbatten who was
then the Vice-Roy of India. Now whether bifurcation of India was good or
otherwise is a different question.

By bringing this reality before Goa Net I am in no way trying to tarnish the
images of Mahatma Gandhi and Indira Gandhi's family, but only drawing
attention to the other side of the story, so that readers with an analytical
mind will be compelled to think.

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
Vinay Natekar
2008-02-05 06:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Dear Chinmay
Your definition of a misguided patriot applies much
better to many terrorists/criminals of today e.g.
suicide bombers. The fact remains that whoever these
people are they have murdered another human being.
They are criminals under secular law. The only type of
killing that law excuses is that in self-defense, or
in defense of one's country. You appear to be
justifying the murder of Gandhi for purely ideological
reasons, or for some speculative unproven charge
against him, most likely based on an ideology with
which you sympathize.
Response

In legal and social terms Godse can be termed as a murderer, a fanatic
RSS activist and his crime of killing a human being can not be condoned
may it be Mahatma Gandhi or any ordinary person. Even the most imperfect
man has to come to this path eventually. Our responsibility is not to
cut his life short, thereby stopping his progression which should be
left to divine dispensation.

Bhagavad Gita says, no action is by itself sinful or meritorious. It is
the motive in the heart of the doer which leads him to take a particular
action that is the determining factor.

I am just forwarding few lines from Godse's biography excerpted from
Pradeep Dalvi's controversial play 'Mi Nathuram Godse Boltoy.'

"I was born on May 19, 1910 to Vinayakrao and Laxmi. I had three
brothers, but none survived. After my parent's prayer to God their
fourth son that is me, Nathuram survived because my parents were
destined to suffer for their young son's death and Gandhi was destined
to be assassinated.

I never stole in my childhood, so there was no question of apologising
to my father. I never took a vow of celibacy as I was already practicing
celibacy. I was moving around the refugee camps and helping the
destitute with food and clothes. But I did not wander half-naked because
the refugees were naked. I never spun yarn, never cleaned my toilet,
never observed silence till I was hanged. There was only one common
factor in Gandhi's life and mine. We were both the cause of each other's
death. He wanted to live for his principles and I was prepared to die
for my principles."



Vinay
Bhandare
2008-02-05 13:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

First of all i did not justify Gandhi's kiling. I would have called godse a patriot and not 'misguided'

In fact i said that by kiling Gandhi, Godse gave his idelogy a fresh lease of life. I tried to give a reason from Godse's point of view why he did what he did .
The otherpont i made was that if taking anther persons life (except in self defence and as george says in a just war) is wrong than all our revolutionary heroeslike bhagat singh and others should be treated on par with Godse.

Also my reason about Godse s far from 'uncritical' It may very well be diametically opposite to your views but in my humble opinion it doesnt make it uncritical.

Regarding Godses's motive ,the cabiet decided to withold the money to pakistan because of the war.gandhi went on his fast to death..the govt succumbed to the pressure tactics and gave pakistan the money...thw money which was used to fuel the war...proving again that when it came to national interest the congress was ready to satisfy gandhis illgical demands at the cost of national security.

what part of this is exactly 'speculative' or 'based on ideology'


As for Jose Colaco, can he provide any evidence that Godse attacked gandhi before ? to the best of my knowledge there was one unsuccesful attack on gandhi a week back. It was jointly caried out by the godse brothers, madanlas pahwa, vishnupant karkare.
Can jose provide the details of any attack before that?

As for Selma cardoso , have you noticed how cleverly she put the word RSS in Jose's mouth? but that is besides the point.







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Venantius Pinto
2008-02-05 12:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Bhandare,
You are being clinically truthful when you say "I would rather want
gandhism dead than Gandhi." I see your point -- events would have
swung differently if Gandhi was alive; the very concept of Gandhism
would not have existed and in so being, not a construct to benefit
from -- for certain quarters, or the rallying force for millions.
Perhaps in Gandhi's place or alternate space someone else would have
emerged as a "leveller or strongman."

venantius
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 06:58:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Bhandare <bhandare1978 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Gandhi
The reason i called Godse a "misguided patriot" is simply because of a
lack of any other good term. In fact because godse killed Gandhi ,
Gandhism got a fresh lease of life. Had Gandhi been allowed to
experiment with his ideas maybe Gandhism would have died a quicker
death.I would rather want gandhism dead than Gandhi.
Bhandare
2008-02-07 15:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

I submit that all 3 websites that you have provided are ideologically driven ones. The last one is driven by "hindutva" while the first 2 are driven by "gandhivaad"...The second one is merely a criticism of a play on Nathuram while the first a hagiography which cleverly leaves out the unpleasant facts about gandhi.

Let me comment on the content of both the websites that you have referred to in support of your claim
------------------------------------------------------------------------
the second website says the following, and I qreproduce verbatim:

QUOTE"
Gandhiji started his fast on January 13, 1948 at five minutes to noon. On the third day of the fast, that is on 15th January, the Government of India declared its decision of handing over to Pakistan its share of Rs. 55 crore from the cash balances immediately. Yet Gandhiji did not withdraw his fast since its second objective was to establish peace between Hindus and Muslims in Delhi. ENDQUOE


This clearly mentions that the SECOND condition was HinduMuslim unity. what was the first condition? Does it not appear from the text that the first condition was "giving 55 crores to pakistan'?

also please think about the reason why the Indian government which had withheld the money because of the aggression reversed its decison, if not for gandhi's pressure tactics.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
regarding the first website , it gives 6 "facts" to suport its claims.

the first four are "conjecture" or hearsay" and can not be independently verified. the next 2 are reproduced below:

1. The press release of the government of India did not have any mention thereof.

This statement is a blatant lie.

In the book ,"Dr. Rajendra Prasad: Correspondence and Select documents, Vol. 8" the Governemnt Communique is printed verbatim ( as appearing in the Hindustan Times on jan 16th)

Please read carefully this relevant page http://tinyurl.com/252xoa

The communique clearly states that decision to hand over 55 crores minus expenses to pakistan was motivated by its desire to end the suffering of the nations soul and in response to the appeal made by gandhi.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.The list of assurances given by the committee headed by Dr. Rajendra Prasad to persuade Gandhiji to give up his fast did not include it.

This is the kind of insidious propaganda carried out by the gandhians for over half a century. The statement is true but only partly . When gandhi went on his fast he had two main conditions, the 55 crores issue and restoring hindu muslim unity ion Delhi. Even Godse mentions this in his deposition.

The assurances , which can be found here, http://tinyurl.com/yubgsl, were given on 18th when the govt had already accepted gandhis first condition of honoring the 55 crore pledge on the 15th of january. The reason gandhi did not sip his juice on 15th was because the second condition was not met. This was satisfied by the assurances given by the representatives of the various political organizations on 18th.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking forward to hear your comments. In case you are interested I will provide a detailed account of the bogus statements made in the two websites that you have circulated.

regards

Chinmay













The list of assurances given by the committee headed by Dr. Rajendra Prasad to persuade Gandhiji to give up his fast did not include it.







regards

chinmay



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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-08 06:09:55 UTC
Permalink
I need to explain the second last Para picked up from my posting under
subject Gandhi by Elisabeth Carvalho in her message No 2 in Goanet Digest,
Vol 3, Issue 150 Sent on Wednesday, February 06, 2008



Elisabeth rushed with her reply trying to silence me by brain and emotions
for a second and in that attempt she tried to shift the goal post to some
other point other than the point which was picked up by her from my posting!




Pamela Mountbatten showed her guts and gumption to talk about ones' family,
especially a mother's relationships in the public. On this count, perhaps
one of the rarest accounts of describing relationship is that of Pamela
Mountbatten's depiction of her mother Edwina, wife of Lord Mountbatten the
last Viceroy of India and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru's 'love affair' in her
book - India Remembered: A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the
Transfer of Power.



Pamela's approach in her book also gives an indication that emotions,
sentiments have no value when one talk, writes, discusses about the facts
and incidences that occurred in the past.



What Pamela mentioned in her book is what I had quoted in my posting. Once
you read that book you will get much more information than what I have
shared to the net. Nehru - Edwina relations are known all over India much
prior to even Pamela wrote the book! And if you still differ with what
Pamela wrote about Nehru - Edwina relation you could write to her expressing
your feelings, sentiments, etc...



Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad
Bhandare
2008-02-08 14:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

I have provided you with clear evidence why at least 2 of those facts are blatant lies or half truths at best.Can you comment on them?

I have provided references to the writings of Rajendra prasad, the first president of India as well as the official communique issued by the indian government which clearly mentions that it reversed its decision to withheld the money due to pakistan because of gandhijis fast.

I agree with you that the hindu jagruti site is crude and has more rhetoric than facts. I have already contacted them and should time permit i will take it upon myself to provide better researched content to their websites.

As regards your suspicion, i am afraid you are wrong. I have researched this issue a lot in the past long before i came on goanet. i am willing to argue point by point with you or anyone else on this, except of course a few of the usual suspects that i ignore.

regards

Chinmay



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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-09 12:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Again Selma is shifting the goal post to somewhere else not sticking on to
the point that was brought up by her. I know truth is always bitter. Selma
have a look at the archives, Nehru's intelligence, Bill Clinton, Monica and
or Middle East peace were not at all under discussion. As regards Clinton
and Monica world knows what's what....



If you want to start new thread for discussion on Bill Clinton, Monica and
or Middle East you may do so with the permission of Goanet for these are not
Goa related issue. If you start I don't mind contributing to the thread.



But good to see Selma back on net more these days.....



Best regards,



Dr. U. G. Barad





Selma wrote to me: Arrey Dotor Barad,



I am not contesting Lady Mountbatten's relationship with Nehru, I am only
making the point that neither

Mrs Carvalho nor Lady Mountbatten are or were capable of "trying to silence"
anyone's brains and emotions,

least of all a man like Nehru's. Nehru was an intellectual par excellence,
and holding his relationship with Edwina responsible for the creation of
Pakistan, is like saying Bill Clinton couldn't bring about Middle East peace
because he was occupied with Monica.



selma
Bhandare
2008-02-09 15:54:34 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

You say:
"Furthermore, your claim that the money (55 crores) was used to fuel the war against our nation seems to be speculation that cannot be supported by conclusive evidence."

I have no answer for you on this one, but common sense will dictate that if a impoverished nation is giving money in the middle of a conflict with a bigger and stronger opponent that that money will be used in some way to support the war effort.

regards

chinmay




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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-10 08:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Victor,

Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book
online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.

Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.

Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad


Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me:

Dear Dr. Barad,

To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-02-17 15:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dr. Barad,
It is now a week since I asked you to provide us with the exact words Pamela Mountbatten used, that led you to make certain derogatory remarks about persons who are dead, and so not able to defend themselves against lies and calumnies.
Have you found the passage yet? Do you think you will ever find it? Are you hoping Goanetters will forget what you wrote, if you duck the issue long enough?
Come on, Dr. Barad! We are waiting for your answer. Fortunately, we are not holding our breath, or we could die of asphyxiation.
Best possible personal regards,
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro <vrangelrib at yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Barad,
I have no interest in buying Pamela Mountbatten's book. You made a statement that you claim is based on that book. It is up to you to prove the truth of that claim --- if it is based on that book, please cite the exact passage that is relevant. You can quote up to 400 words without violating copyright laws.

So please go to it. We are waiting.
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro

"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Victor,

Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book
online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.

Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.

Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad


Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me:

Dear Dr. Barad,

To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-18 08:35:25 UTC
Permalink
Dear Victor,



This has reference to your message titled Gandhi (Message no 7 dated Sunday
17 February 2008) regarding book authored by Pamela Mountbatten.



Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.



If you find the book too costly to buy, please try if you can get low cost
edition of this book which I am not aware off and still if you don't want to
buy the book...forget it. With this explanation I would rather say you can
continue to wait for weeks, months, and years holding your breath or
otherwise..



Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.



Best regards,



Dr. U. G. Barad





Here are follow up messages of Victor and my response to them:



Victor wrote: Dear Dr. Barad,



It is now a week since I asked you to provide us with the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used, that led you to make certain derogatory remarks
about persons who are dead, and so not able to defend themselves against
lies and calumnies.

Have you found the passage yet? Do you think you will ever find it?
Are you hoping Goanetters will forget what you wrote, if you duck the issue
long enough?

Come on, Dr. Barad! We are waiting for your answer. Fortunately, we
are not holding our breath, or we could die of asphyxiation.

Best possible personal regards,

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro



Victor Rangel-Ribeiro wrote: Dear Dr. Barad,

I have no interest in buying Pamela Mountbatten's book. You made a
statement that you claim is based on that book. It is up to you to prove the
truth of that claim --- if it is based on that book, please cite the exact
passage that is relevant. You can quote up to 400 words without violating
copyright laws.



So please go to it. We are waiting.

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro



"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:Dear Victor,



Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book

online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.



Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.



Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..



Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad





Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me: Dear Dr. Barad,



To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-02-21 02:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dr. Barad,
Now that you have shown me how to complete my admittedly deficient education I feel better already.

But days have passed, and you still are not able to find the quote from Pamela Mountbatten's book that would prove the truth of your allegations. Have you lost your copy? If so, why don't you buy another? If you can't afford it, why don't you look for a cheaper copy?

Of course, you have two other options. You can admit you were mistaken, and misread a passage. Or you can say your memory played you a trick. That at least would be honest.

Regards,
Victor (who, alas, still is not qualified to put "Dr." in front of his name)

"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:


Dear Victor

This has reference to your message titled Gandhi (Message no 7 dated Sunday
17 February 2008) regarding book authored by Pamela Mountbatten.

Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.

If you find the book too costly to buy, please try if you can get low cost
edition of this book which I am not aware off and still if you don't want to
buy the book...forget it. With this explanation I would rather say you can
continue to wait for weeks, months, and years holding your breath or
otherwise..

Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.
Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
els verwimp
2008-02-02 14:03:42 UTC
Permalink
dear all,

for quite some time now I am rather upset reading some thoughtless messages about religion and how good christianity is and how poor and barbaric and inferior all other religions (specially the hindu religion and definitely islam) are. I do know that these words are not used literaly in any of the posts sent to Goanet. But just to read between the lines of what 'some' people write gives me a rather uncomfortable feeling.

Every religion can be abused.
It is easy for us to look at what is going on in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saoudi-Arabia, Irak, Iran, ... Belgium, Spain, England, ... in the name of islam.
We can also look on what is going on in the Middle East and how some Israeli people (government) terrorise people in the name of a holy book and that this used to be a 'promised land'. Promised? By who?
Anyhow, it will definitely be a lot easier for many of you people to look at what is going on in some parts of India also in the name of religion against certain minorities.

In Goa many people just seem to ignore for instance the inquisition. It is necessary to know the 'facts' in order to move on. Talking about the inquisition doesn't mean that you are blaming christian religion. On the contrary you are blaming something that is completely gone out of hand and has nothing to do with religion but only with power and politics. Ever heard about the 'liberation theology' in Latin America? It is also known as Christian socialism and it focuses on Christ not only the redeemer but also the 'liberator' of the oppressed. This movement which was very active and was growing pretty fast in Latin America was of course harshly warned by Pope John Paul II (a saint???) and his successor Pope Benedict XVI. Poor people, the lowest of the lowest were uplifted by many ordinary local priests while the bishops and the cardinals were drinking their wine and talking politics and smoking their Havana's with those in power. In my opinion these brave priests are the true christians.

I guess that people in these uncertain times (worldwide) deserve strong, confident, honest leadership with a true mission and vision. Unfortunately nowhere to be found so far. I appreciated a post on this list (don't know who wrote it anymore) talking about the importance of Dr. Martin Luther King. Perhaps people should try to find a way towards dialogue, which sometimes might be very difficult and dangerous specially when your opponent isn't willing. It surprises me that nobody on this list ever mentioned the 60th deathanniversary of Gandhi. It seems he and his thoughts, believes, ... have slowly vanished over the Ganges and into the sea. Unfortunately, cause he is needed.

Take care
Martin Van Camp - Duarte
Belgium
Bhandare
2008-02-02 17:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear Martin:

Sixy years after his assasinaton, what we need is a
critical analysis of the mans politics and principles
and actions rather tha merely hoisting him on a
pedestal and worshipping him. We Indians have a
tendency to hero worship and gandhi is the ultimate
hero.

While it is true that he was a great man and espoused
many noble causes, he was far from perfect. His
assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.

The congress prty had a selfish interest in
perpetuating this legacy of gandhi and capitalise on
it politically. That is the reason why they have never
allowed a honest discussion about the man. But now
Indians are increasingly getting frustrated with his
ideas and and I am sure in another generation Gandhi
would lose his significance even more.

regards

B




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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-03 09:43:59 UTC
Permalink
I read Martin Van Camp ? Duarte Belgium - titled ? Gandhi twice. And I felt
the posting is quite okay except for his 3rd Para which makes passing
reference to Goa Inquisition, although he does not go further.?

This 3rd Para as is used by the writer reads the following lines:

In Goa many people just seem to ignore for instance the inquisition. It is
necessary to know the 'facts' in order to move on. Talking about the
inquisition doesn't mean that you are blaming christian religion. On the
contrary you are blaming something that is completely gone out of hand and
has nothing to do with religion but only with power and politics. Ever heard
about the 'liberation theology' in Latin America? It is also known as
Christian socialism and it focuses on Christ not only the redeemer but also
the 'liberator' of the oppressed. This movement which was very active and
was growing pretty fast in Latin America was of course harshly warned by
Pope John Paul II (a saint???) and his successor Pope Benedict XVI. Poor
people, the lowest of the lowest were uplifted by many ordinary local
priests while the bishops and the cardinals were drinking their wine and
talking politics and smoking their Havana's with those in power. In my
opinion these brave priests are the true?Christians.

My rejoinder to this 3rd Para would be:

In times of Inquisition in Goa, Christians destroyed a very large number of
Hindu Temples, and wrote about this destruction in the memoirs kept by
them.? For a comprehensive list of the various Hindu temples in Goa
destroyed by the Portuguese Christian soldiers, refer to the book - Hindu
Temples of Goa - by Adv. Rui Gomes Pereira.? It will be an eye-opener to
so-called secularists who shed countless crocodile tears over demolition of
Babri Masjid.?

Further mention of atrocities committed by the Christian fanatics on Hindus
can be found in the Book "Goa Inquisition" by A. K. Priolkar.

There is also a book in Marathi on Inquisition by Adv. Laxmikant Bhembre,
father of Adv. Uday Bhembre, written when he was under deportation to
Portugal.?This book brings out all the references as is preserved in
Portugal Libraries with authentication.

Is the wanton destruction in Goa carried out by Christian fanatics to be
forgotten altogether??

Do not forget the maxim, 'History repeats itself" and "those who forget
history are bound to repeat it".

Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad
Bhandare
2008-02-03 15:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear george:

were bhagat singh , rajguru and sukhdev animals too?

regards

B




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Venantius Pinto
2008-02-03 22:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Bandare is right here. His point about Godse being a misguided patriot
should not lead to such a broad comparison ranging from the world's
murderers to suicide bombers. I too am not comfortable in casting
Godse as a criminal. Upon having assassinated Gandhi -- he became
culpable for the crime he committed, as a patriot -- towards
maintaining a certain partisan perspective. This is akin to one man's
terrorist being another man's freedom fighter. Taking a life has been
a crime for centuries now, that is true. But crime, criminal behavior
and criminality have to be seen in their contexts. This is an area for
fine discernment and would be an involved discourse that I am unable
to take on at present.

Bandare is actually being very gracious in even calling NG a misguided
patriot. I see both Nathuram Godse and Gandhi as patriots, pure and
simple with all the connotations attached to the term. Different
directions, different concessions, that's all. Nowadays very few of us
would consider taking on the appellation of a patriot. It has lost its
early embracing power and meaning.

Bhagat Singh, Rajguru and Sukhdev could not be criminals in the eyes
of the Indians and we should never see them as criminals. And how
about Lal, Bal, Pal, Chandra Sekhar Azad, Veer Savarkar, Rash Behari
Bose, Bagha Jatin, and Deshbandu Chittaranjan Das --- all patriots?!
Yes. And fine ones at that, inspite in at least one exenuating case,
practically a bigot. The British can arrogate themselves in seeing
these individuals as criminals, but we cannot allow ourselves to do
so.

Other than that does anyone have any idea when the papers of the
Jallianwalla Baugh/Bagh massacre will be opened by the British?

venantius j pinto
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Gandhi
His [GANDHI'S] assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.
Wow! All the murderers, including suicide bombers, of this world will be pleased to know they are
misguided and not criminal. I am sure victims should feel better they were not killed by human
animals like Godse, but merely misguided folk.
Regards,
George
Bhandare
2008-02-04 02:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

I am glad you weighed in on this one. Nathuram Godse
assasinated Gandhi not for any personal gain. He did
it for what he believed was the greater good of the
country. He did not flee from the scene and was very
eloquent in describing his motives for killing gandhi.
Even while india was at a war with pakistan over
kashmir, gandhi blackmailed the govt to give pakistan
55 crore rupees , money which was used to fuel the war
against our nation. Godse considered that act as
treason and acted in order to safeguard national
interest.

Bhagat singh on the other hand killed a british police
offcer who was not involved in the assault on lala
lajpat rai.Instead of Saunders, he murdered
Scott.Later he fled from the police.

Who is a terrorist depends on whose version you want
to hear. A democratically elected Prezident Bush is
widely regarded as a "terrorist" for a large section
of the muslim world. On the other hand Osama is hailed
as a "revolutionary hero" and a "lion of resistance"
The same is true for every other revolutionary or
terrorist.

George Pinto has now qualified his response. So
according to him, war is exempt. So it is ok for
America to kill vietnamese civilians by napalm, as
long as it is war. Or poor afghans by predator drone
attacks. Quite interesting!

On this very forum we have had many people
enthusiastically refrring to the lynching of a quarry
owner by a mob of villagers in Saleli, or stoming a
mining compny property in Colomb as a people's
movement.
Yet the same people would probably describe the
storming of the babri masjid as 'hindutva fascism...
the background is identical...civil laws were unable
to meet the aspirations of the people.

The only point I am making is : We can not treat Godse
any separately from Bhagat Singh or Che or any other
revolutionary.

regards



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Pravin Sabnis
2008-02-04 02:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bhandare
were bhagat singh , rajguru and sukhdev animals too?
regards
B
All human beings are animals. So there.
Bhagat, Rajguru, Sukhdev described themselves as marxists.
; - )
Bhagat Singh is very interesting to read and understand
He was hanged at the age of 23
He was a writer who turned rebel
check out what I wrote about an inspiring icon
http://monday-muse.blogspot.com/2007/09/synonymous-with-shaheed.html

regards
Pravin-da


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Miguel Braganza
2008-02-04 09:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Dears,

Great classification Chinmay Bhandare,
Adolf Hitler is now the world's best known PATRIOT.
Perhaps Rockfeller Institute or Fundacao Gulbenkian will honour him
one of these days. Through his untimely death, he missed the Nobel
Prize for Medicine, bitter though it was ;-) The Nobel Prize is not
given posthumously.

I wonder why the HJS Dharmatej folks felicitate mini-patriots like
Rajendra Subhash Velingker, whose patriotism is limited to breaking
and/or defacing name plaques of streets in Fontainhas? Small people
have small minds and get small thrills, huh? For their sterling
performance, such patriots should at least be given the state's
Yashdamini Awards. That will have to await the change in dispensation.

One set of misguided patriots that I can recall are those patriot
missiles George Bush used in Iraq. ;-)

Mog asundi.

Miguel


Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 20:57:29 -0800 (PST)
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Gandhi

Wow! All the murderers, including suicide bombers, of this world will
be pleased to know they aremisguided and not criminal. I am sure
victims should feel better they were not killed by humananimals like
Godse, but merely misguided folk.
Regards,
George
His [GANDHI'S] assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.
--
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Miguel Braganza, S1 Gracinda Apts,
Rajvaddo, Mhapsa 403507 Goa
Ph 9822982676 miguelbraganza at yahoo.co.in
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Bhandare
2008-02-04 14:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to all those who responded on this topic. I will ignore the usual
suspects and respond to some interesting points made by Pravin, Venantius and george.

George, I am sorry for having misread you. Which war is just and which one is unjust is itself a difficult question. That bein said my point was that if killing a fellow human being is a crime then all our certified "heroes" like bhagat singh and others should be treated on par with Godse. Do you agree with this ?

Venantius, i am glad that you agree with me.The reason i called Godse a "misguided patriot" is simply because of a lack of any other good term. In fact because godse killed Gandhi , Gandhism got a fresh lease of life. Had Gandhi been allowed to experiment with his ideas maybe Gandhism would have died a quicker death.I would rather want gandhism dead than Gandhi.
Interestingly gandhi himself had called Chatrapati shivaji, rana pratap and Guru Gobind Singh as "misguided patriots" himself.

Pravin, can you please explain why Bhagat singh is a hero and Godse isnt? Godse too died at the young age of 39. Lke Bhagat singh he refused to plead innocent and forbid anyone from filing a mercy petition on his behalf. Both acted to safeguard their country. I am curius where and why you draw the line.

In fact the administration acted cruelly in Godse's case and refused to hang him in Pune thereby deprivng his old parents a chance to meet him for the last time.
The date was kept secret and the ground where he was hanged was ploughed over to revent a memorial coming up at the spot.
The Congress government proscribed his brothers writings and stiffled all discussin about the man and vilified him no end.
The RSS was accused of being complicit and banned and so was savarkar. Bothe were acquitted honorably because evidence suggested Godse was acting alone.The ban was lifted to.

regards

B






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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-04 13:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Going by different versions expressed in the net, I thought I should share
some more information on Gandhi to Goanet.

Back ground information: Sonia Maino, after she got married to Rajiv Gandhi,
when he was studying in England, got the new name as Sonia Gandhi. This
Sonia Gandhi is not at all related to Mahatma Gandhi. Rather Mahatma Gandhi
and Indira Gandhi have no blood relationship at all. Indira Nehru got
married to one person by name Firoz Ghandy, and he was not a Parsi but a
Muslim. After the marriage of Indira with Firoz also in England, both
decided to adopt the surname Gandhi. And that's how Indira from that day was
know as Indira Gandhi wife of Feroze Gandhi and her dynasty i.e. Gandhi
dynasty started and is continuing till date. But many Goans are still under
the impression that Indira Gandhi is hailing from Mahatma Gandhi roots. And
this might be one of the causes of extending blind support to Gandhi family
in power, while Mahatma Gandhi's family members are still without any
recognition!

Another Factual Reality: In a book titled Famous Trials of India by Justice
G. D. Khosla who was one of the judges during the trial of Nathuram Godse,
the said Justice Khosla writes in one of the chapter (on Nathuram Godse
trial), saying "Had the audience in the court been converted into a jury, I
have no doubt that they would have unanimously returned the verdict of
Nathuram Godse is not GUILTY "This is what the pubic sympathy was for
Nathuram Godse at the relevant time.

A famous Indian Author who writes in English and is famous the world over
for his writings, namely Colonel Manohar Malgaonkar, a retired Colonel of
the Indian Army, also very much conversant with Goa having a book written on
Goa, to which the cartoons for illustration have been drawn by the world
famous Cartoonist of Goan origin Mr. Mario Miranda, writes in one of his
novels, namely "the Men who killed Mahatma Gandhi", saying "During the
famous fast unto death of Mahatma Gandhi in 1947 to compel the Government of
India to disburse 55 Crores of rupees to Pakistan immediately after the
Partition of India, Hindu refugees from Pakistan who were leaving in refugee
camps in Delhi were seen shouting "GANDHI MARTA HAI TO MARNE DO". Although
it is a novel, it has been based on meticulous field inquiries by the said
author. This quotation by Colonel Manohar Malgaonkar also shows what the
level of public hatred / sympathy towards Mahatma Gandhi was then.
Incidentally, the said Col. Manohar Malgaokar was writing a regular column
in Sunday edition of Navhind Times of Goa, for many years, till about three
four years back. He is a landlord of a village called "Jagalbet" near Londa,
on the road to Supa and Dandeli, and was a regular visitor to Goa.

One who is interested in knowing more about factual realities prevailing at
the relevant time and to know the other side of the story, should read the
following books: (1) Gandhi Hatya ani Mi, in Marathi by Gopal Godse, brother
of Nathuram Godse. The English version of this Book is "Gandhiji's Murder
and After (this book brings out all the arguments and explanations given by
Nathuram Godse during his trial in the court. The statements quoted in this
book exactly matches with the one in Justice Khosla's book - Famous Trials
of India); (2) 55 Kotiche Bali, in Marathi, its English Version being May It
Please Your Honour. (In this book Godse writes that even when India was at a
war with Pakistan over Kashmir issue, Gandhi's huger strike blackmailed the
Government of India to give Pakistan the sum of Rupees 55 Crores. This sum
was rightly denied to be given even by Sardar Vallabh bhai Patel. Later, as
Sardar Patel predicted, that 55 Crores of Rupees were used by Pakistan to
fight endless wars against India. The Hunger strike of Gandhi was literary
proved to be a blackmailing tactics against India and was also considered as
an act of disloyalty towards safeguarding the interest of the nation. It was
also concluded by most Indians as an act trying to show that - I am above
nation. This book also brings out arguments and explanations given by
Nathuram Godse during his trial in the court). Both these books are authored
by Gopal Godse and are running in 18th edition as of date.

Without taking much space of Goa Net, I conclude saying, had it not for
Jawaharlal Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi combine, our India would have continued
to be one single nation not bifurcated into India and Pakistan. This is
because Nehru's weakness was taken advantage of by Lady Mountbatten who was
then the Vice-Roy of India. Now whether bifurcation of India was good or
otherwise is a different question.

By bringing this reality before Goa Net I am in no way trying to tarnish the
images of Mahatma Gandhi and Indira Gandhi's family, but only drawing
attention to the other side of the story, so that readers with an analytical
mind will be compelled to think.

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
Vinay Natekar
2008-02-05 06:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Dear Chinmay
Your definition of a misguided patriot applies much
better to many terrorists/criminals of today e.g.
suicide bombers. The fact remains that whoever these
people are they have murdered another human being.
They are criminals under secular law. The only type of
killing that law excuses is that in self-defense, or
in defense of one's country. You appear to be
justifying the murder of Gandhi for purely ideological
reasons, or for some speculative unproven charge
against him, most likely based on an ideology with
which you sympathize.
Response

In legal and social terms Godse can be termed as a murderer, a fanatic
RSS activist and his crime of killing a human being can not be condoned
may it be Mahatma Gandhi or any ordinary person. Even the most imperfect
man has to come to this path eventually. Our responsibility is not to
cut his life short, thereby stopping his progression which should be
left to divine dispensation.

Bhagavad Gita says, no action is by itself sinful or meritorious. It is
the motive in the heart of the doer which leads him to take a particular
action that is the determining factor.

I am just forwarding few lines from Godse's biography excerpted from
Pradeep Dalvi's controversial play 'Mi Nathuram Godse Boltoy.'

"I was born on May 19, 1910 to Vinayakrao and Laxmi. I had three
brothers, but none survived. After my parent's prayer to God their
fourth son that is me, Nathuram survived because my parents were
destined to suffer for their young son's death and Gandhi was destined
to be assassinated.

I never stole in my childhood, so there was no question of apologising
to my father. I never took a vow of celibacy as I was already practicing
celibacy. I was moving around the refugee camps and helping the
destitute with food and clothes. But I did not wander half-naked because
the refugees were naked. I never spun yarn, never cleaned my toilet,
never observed silence till I was hanged. There was only one common
factor in Gandhi's life and mine. We were both the cause of each other's
death. He wanted to live for his principles and I was prepared to die
for my principles."



Vinay
Bhandare
2008-02-05 13:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

First of all i did not justify Gandhi's kiling. I would have called godse a patriot and not 'misguided'

In fact i said that by kiling Gandhi, Godse gave his idelogy a fresh lease of life. I tried to give a reason from Godse's point of view why he did what he did .
The otherpont i made was that if taking anther persons life (except in self defence and as george says in a just war) is wrong than all our revolutionary heroeslike bhagat singh and others should be treated on par with Godse.

Also my reason about Godse s far from 'uncritical' It may very well be diametically opposite to your views but in my humble opinion it doesnt make it uncritical.

Regarding Godses's motive ,the cabiet decided to withold the money to pakistan because of the war.gandhi went on his fast to death..the govt succumbed to the pressure tactics and gave pakistan the money...thw money which was used to fuel the war...proving again that when it came to national interest the congress was ready to satisfy gandhis illgical demands at the cost of national security.

what part of this is exactly 'speculative' or 'based on ideology'


As for Jose Colaco, can he provide any evidence that Godse attacked gandhi before ? to the best of my knowledge there was one unsuccesful attack on gandhi a week back. It was jointly caried out by the godse brothers, madanlas pahwa, vishnupant karkare.
Can jose provide the details of any attack before that?

As for Selma cardoso , have you noticed how cleverly she put the word RSS in Jose's mouth? but that is besides the point.







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Venantius Pinto
2008-02-05 12:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Bhandare,
You are being clinically truthful when you say "I would rather want
gandhism dead than Gandhi." I see your point -- events would have
swung differently if Gandhi was alive; the very concept of Gandhism
would not have existed and in so being, not a construct to benefit
from -- for certain quarters, or the rallying force for millions.
Perhaps in Gandhi's place or alternate space someone else would have
emerged as a "leveller or strongman."

venantius
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 06:58:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Bhandare <bhandare1978 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Gandhi
The reason i called Godse a "misguided patriot" is simply because of a
lack of any other good term. In fact because godse killed Gandhi ,
Gandhism got a fresh lease of life. Had Gandhi been allowed to
experiment with his ideas maybe Gandhism would have died a quicker
death.I would rather want gandhism dead than Gandhi.
Bhandare
2008-02-07 15:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

I submit that all 3 websites that you have provided are ideologically driven ones. The last one is driven by "hindutva" while the first 2 are driven by "gandhivaad"...The second one is merely a criticism of a play on Nathuram while the first a hagiography which cleverly leaves out the unpleasant facts about gandhi.

Let me comment on the content of both the websites that you have referred to in support of your claim
------------------------------------------------------------------------
the second website says the following, and I qreproduce verbatim:

QUOTE"
Gandhiji started his fast on January 13, 1948 at five minutes to noon. On the third day of the fast, that is on 15th January, the Government of India declared its decision of handing over to Pakistan its share of Rs. 55 crore from the cash balances immediately. Yet Gandhiji did not withdraw his fast since its second objective was to establish peace between Hindus and Muslims in Delhi. ENDQUOE


This clearly mentions that the SECOND condition was HinduMuslim unity. what was the first condition? Does it not appear from the text that the first condition was "giving 55 crores to pakistan'?

also please think about the reason why the Indian government which had withheld the money because of the aggression reversed its decison, if not for gandhi's pressure tactics.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
regarding the first website , it gives 6 "facts" to suport its claims.

the first four are "conjecture" or hearsay" and can not be independently verified. the next 2 are reproduced below:

1. The press release of the government of India did not have any mention thereof.

This statement is a blatant lie.

In the book ,"Dr. Rajendra Prasad: Correspondence and Select documents, Vol. 8" the Governemnt Communique is printed verbatim ( as appearing in the Hindustan Times on jan 16th)

Please read carefully this relevant page http://tinyurl.com/252xoa

The communique clearly states that decision to hand over 55 crores minus expenses to pakistan was motivated by its desire to end the suffering of the nations soul and in response to the appeal made by gandhi.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.The list of assurances given by the committee headed by Dr. Rajendra Prasad to persuade Gandhiji to give up his fast did not include it.

This is the kind of insidious propaganda carried out by the gandhians for over half a century. The statement is true but only partly . When gandhi went on his fast he had two main conditions, the 55 crores issue and restoring hindu muslim unity ion Delhi. Even Godse mentions this in his deposition.

The assurances , which can be found here, http://tinyurl.com/yubgsl, were given on 18th when the govt had already accepted gandhis first condition of honoring the 55 crore pledge on the 15th of january. The reason gandhi did not sip his juice on 15th was because the second condition was not met. This was satisfied by the assurances given by the representatives of the various political organizations on 18th.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking forward to hear your comments. In case you are interested I will provide a detailed account of the bogus statements made in the two websites that you have circulated.

regards

Chinmay













The list of assurances given by the committee headed by Dr. Rajendra Prasad to persuade Gandhiji to give up his fast did not include it.







regards

chinmay



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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-08 06:09:55 UTC
Permalink
I need to explain the second last Para picked up from my posting under
subject Gandhi by Elisabeth Carvalho in her message No 2 in Goanet Digest,
Vol 3, Issue 150 Sent on Wednesday, February 06, 2008



Elisabeth rushed with her reply trying to silence me by brain and emotions
for a second and in that attempt she tried to shift the goal post to some
other point other than the point which was picked up by her from my posting!




Pamela Mountbatten showed her guts and gumption to talk about ones' family,
especially a mother's relationships in the public. On this count, perhaps
one of the rarest accounts of describing relationship is that of Pamela
Mountbatten's depiction of her mother Edwina, wife of Lord Mountbatten the
last Viceroy of India and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru's 'love affair' in her
book - India Remembered: A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the
Transfer of Power.



Pamela's approach in her book also gives an indication that emotions,
sentiments have no value when one talk, writes, discusses about the facts
and incidences that occurred in the past.



What Pamela mentioned in her book is what I had quoted in my posting. Once
you read that book you will get much more information than what I have
shared to the net. Nehru - Edwina relations are known all over India much
prior to even Pamela wrote the book! And if you still differ with what
Pamela wrote about Nehru - Edwina relation you could write to her expressing
your feelings, sentiments, etc...



Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad
Bhandare
2008-02-08 14:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

I have provided you with clear evidence why at least 2 of those facts are blatant lies or half truths at best.Can you comment on them?

I have provided references to the writings of Rajendra prasad, the first president of India as well as the official communique issued by the indian government which clearly mentions that it reversed its decision to withheld the money due to pakistan because of gandhijis fast.

I agree with you that the hindu jagruti site is crude and has more rhetoric than facts. I have already contacted them and should time permit i will take it upon myself to provide better researched content to their websites.

As regards your suspicion, i am afraid you are wrong. I have researched this issue a lot in the past long before i came on goanet. i am willing to argue point by point with you or anyone else on this, except of course a few of the usual suspects that i ignore.

regards

Chinmay



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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-09 12:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Again Selma is shifting the goal post to somewhere else not sticking on to
the point that was brought up by her. I know truth is always bitter. Selma
have a look at the archives, Nehru's intelligence, Bill Clinton, Monica and
or Middle East peace were not at all under discussion. As regards Clinton
and Monica world knows what's what....



If you want to start new thread for discussion on Bill Clinton, Monica and
or Middle East you may do so with the permission of Goanet for these are not
Goa related issue. If you start I don't mind contributing to the thread.



But good to see Selma back on net more these days.....



Best regards,



Dr. U. G. Barad





Selma wrote to me: Arrey Dotor Barad,



I am not contesting Lady Mountbatten's relationship with Nehru, I am only
making the point that neither

Mrs Carvalho nor Lady Mountbatten are or were capable of "trying to silence"
anyone's brains and emotions,

least of all a man like Nehru's. Nehru was an intellectual par excellence,
and holding his relationship with Edwina responsible for the creation of
Pakistan, is like saying Bill Clinton couldn't bring about Middle East peace
because he was occupied with Monica.



selma
Bhandare
2008-02-09 15:54:34 UTC
Permalink
Dear Santosh:

You say:
"Furthermore, your claim that the money (55 crores) was used to fuel the war against our nation seems to be speculation that cannot be supported by conclusive evidence."

I have no answer for you on this one, but common sense will dictate that if a impoverished nation is giving money in the middle of a conflict with a bigger and stronger opponent that that money will be used in some way to support the war effort.

regards

chinmay




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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-10 08:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Victor,

Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book
online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.

Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.

Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad


Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me:

Dear Dr. Barad,

To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-02-17 15:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dr. Barad,
It is now a week since I asked you to provide us with the exact words Pamela Mountbatten used, that led you to make certain derogatory remarks about persons who are dead, and so not able to defend themselves against lies and calumnies.
Have you found the passage yet? Do you think you will ever find it? Are you hoping Goanetters will forget what you wrote, if you duck the issue long enough?
Come on, Dr. Barad! We are waiting for your answer. Fortunately, we are not holding our breath, or we could die of asphyxiation.
Best possible personal regards,
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro <vrangelrib at yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Barad,
I have no interest in buying Pamela Mountbatten's book. You made a statement that you claim is based on that book. It is up to you to prove the truth of that claim --- if it is based on that book, please cite the exact passage that is relevant. You can quote up to 400 words without violating copyright laws.

So please go to it. We are waiting.
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro

"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Victor,

Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book
online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.

Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.

Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad


Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me:

Dear Dr. Barad,

To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-18 08:35:25 UTC
Permalink
Dear Victor,



This has reference to your message titled Gandhi (Message no 7 dated Sunday
17 February 2008) regarding book authored by Pamela Mountbatten.



Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.



If you find the book too costly to buy, please try if you can get low cost
edition of this book which I am not aware off and still if you don't want to
buy the book...forget it. With this explanation I would rather say you can
continue to wait for weeks, months, and years holding your breath or
otherwise..



Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.



Best regards,



Dr. U. G. Barad





Here are follow up messages of Victor and my response to them:



Victor wrote: Dear Dr. Barad,



It is now a week since I asked you to provide us with the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used, that led you to make certain derogatory remarks
about persons who are dead, and so not able to defend themselves against
lies and calumnies.

Have you found the passage yet? Do you think you will ever find it?
Are you hoping Goanetters will forget what you wrote, if you duck the issue
long enough?

Come on, Dr. Barad! We are waiting for your answer. Fortunately, we
are not holding our breath, or we could die of asphyxiation.

Best possible personal regards,

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro



Victor Rangel-Ribeiro wrote: Dear Dr. Barad,

I have no interest in buying Pamela Mountbatten's book. You made a
statement that you claim is based on that book. It is up to you to prove the
truth of that claim --- if it is based on that book, please cite the exact
passage that is relevant. You can quote up to 400 words without violating
copyright laws.



So please go to it. We are waiting.

Victor Rangel-Ribeiro



"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:Dear Victor,



Please buy the book authored by Pamela Mountbatten titled India Remembered:
A Personal Account of the Mountbatten's During the Transfer of Power. The
book is available in India as well as abroad. You can also order the book

online. The book cost just US $ 25.55.



Once you read that book you will get much more info than what I had written
in my message earlier. I am sure the book will reply your - paraphrase -
quarry and much more. And after reading the book, if you still have
difference of opinions please write to author Pamela directly.



Mr. Victor, for your information, I know am writing to secular public forum
i.e. Goanet and not pleading any case in any law courts to prove my point..



Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad





Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, under message No 7, dated Sat, February 2008 in
Goanet Digest, Vol 3, issue 164, writes to me: Dear Dr. Barad,



To illustrate and prove your point, will you please quote the exact words
Pamela Mountbatten used in her book? Don't paraphrase what she wrote; just
give us the exact passage you have relied on?
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-02-21 02:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dr. Barad,
Now that you have shown me how to complete my admittedly deficient education I feel better already.

But days have passed, and you still are not able to find the quote from Pamela Mountbatten's book that would prove the truth of your allegations. Have you lost your copy? If so, why don't you buy another? If you can't afford it, why don't you look for a cheaper copy?

Of course, you have two other options. You can admit you were mistaken, and misread a passage. Or you can say your memory played you a trick. That at least would be honest.

Regards,
Victor (who, alas, still is not qualified to put "Dr." in front of his name)

"Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com> wrote:


Dear Victor

This has reference to your message titled Gandhi (Message no 7 dated Sunday
17 February 2008) regarding book authored by Pamela Mountbatten.

Victor, I have already answered you. Buy the book, read it and if you don't
understand something from that book and to get explanation from horses mouth
you could write to Pamela directly.

If you find the book too costly to buy, please try if you can get low cost
edition of this book which I am not aware off and still if you don't want to
buy the book...forget it. With this explanation I would rather say you can
continue to wait for weeks, months, and years holding your breath or
otherwise..

Remember one thing. To get educated one has to spend by way of purchasing
books, news papers, journals, magazines, etc.
Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
els verwimp
2008-02-02 14:03:42 UTC
Permalink
dear all,

for quite some time now I am rather upset reading some thoughtless messages about religion and how good christianity is and how poor and barbaric and inferior all other religions (specially the hindu religion and definitely islam) are. I do know that these words are not used literaly in any of the posts sent to Goanet. But just to read between the lines of what 'some' people write gives me a rather uncomfortable feeling.

Every religion can be abused.
It is easy for us to look at what is going on in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saoudi-Arabia, Irak, Iran, ... Belgium, Spain, England, ... in the name of islam.
We can also look on what is going on in the Middle East and how some Israeli people (government) terrorise people in the name of a holy book and that this used to be a 'promised land'. Promised? By who?
Anyhow, it will definitely be a lot easier for many of you people to look at what is going on in some parts of India also in the name of religion against certain minorities.

In Goa many people just seem to ignore for instance the inquisition. It is necessary to know the 'facts' in order to move on. Talking about the inquisition doesn't mean that you are blaming christian religion. On the contrary you are blaming something that is completely gone out of hand and has nothing to do with religion but only with power and politics. Ever heard about the 'liberation theology' in Latin America? It is also known as Christian socialism and it focuses on Christ not only the redeemer but also the 'liberator' of the oppressed. This movement which was very active and was growing pretty fast in Latin America was of course harshly warned by Pope John Paul II (a saint???) and his successor Pope Benedict XVI. Poor people, the lowest of the lowest were uplifted by many ordinary local priests while the bishops and the cardinals were drinking their wine and talking politics and smoking their Havana's with those in power. In my opinion these brave priests are the true christians.

I guess that people in these uncertain times (worldwide) deserve strong, confident, honest leadership with a true mission and vision. Unfortunately nowhere to be found so far. I appreciated a post on this list (don't know who wrote it anymore) talking about the importance of Dr. Martin Luther King. Perhaps people should try to find a way towards dialogue, which sometimes might be very difficult and dangerous specially when your opponent isn't willing. It surprises me that nobody on this list ever mentioned the 60th deathanniversary of Gandhi. It seems he and his thoughts, believes, ... have slowly vanished over the Ganges and into the sea. Unfortunately, cause he is needed.

Take care
Martin Van Camp - Duarte
Belgium
Bhandare
2008-02-02 17:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear Martin:

Sixy years after his assasinaton, what we need is a
critical analysis of the mans politics and principles
and actions rather tha merely hoisting him on a
pedestal and worshipping him. We Indians have a
tendency to hero worship and gandhi is the ultimate
hero.

While it is true that he was a great man and espoused
many noble causes, he was far from perfect. His
assasin, nathuram Godse, too was not a criminal. I
would classify him as a misguided patriot.

The congress prty had a selfish interest in
perpetuating this legacy of gandhi and capitalise on
it politically. That is the reason why they have never
allowed a honest discussion about the man. But now
Indians are increasingly getting frustrated with his
ideas and and I am sure in another generation Gandhi
would lose his significance even more.

regards

B




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Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-02-03 09:43:59 UTC
Permalink
I read Martin Van Camp ? Duarte Belgium - titled ? Gandhi twice. And I felt
the posting is quite okay except for his 3rd Para which makes passing
reference to Goa Inquisition, although he does not go further.?

This 3rd Para as is used by the writer reads the following lines:

In Goa many people just seem to ignore for instance the inquisition. It is
necessary to know the 'facts' in order to move on. Talking about the
inquisition doesn't mean that you are blaming christian religion. On the
contrary you are blaming something that is completely gone out of hand and
has nothing to do with religion but only with power and politics. Ever heard
about the 'liberation theology' in Latin America? It is also known as
Christian socialism and it focuses on Christ not only the redeemer but also
the 'liberator' of the oppressed. This movement which was very active and
was growing pretty fast in Latin America was of course harshly warned by
Pope John Paul II (a saint???) and his successor Pope Benedict XVI. Poor
people, the lowest of the lowest were uplifted by many ordinary local
priests while the bishops and the cardinals were drinking their wine and
talking politics and smoking their Havana's with those in power. In my
opinion these brave priests are the true?Christians.

My rejoinder to this 3rd Para would be:

In times of Inquisition in Goa, Christians destroyed a very large number of
Hindu Temples, and wrote about this destruction in the memoirs kept by
them.? For a comprehensive list of the various Hindu temples in Goa
destroyed by the Portuguese Christian soldiers, refer to the book - Hindu
Temples of Goa - by Adv. Rui Gomes Pereira.? It will be an eye-opener to
so-called secularists who shed countless crocodile tears over demolition of
Babri Masjid.?

Further mention of atrocities committed by the Christian fanatics on Hindus
can be found in the Book "Goa Inquisition" by A. K. Priolkar.

There is also a book in Marathi on Inquisition by Adv. Laxmikant Bhembre,
father of Adv. Uday Bhembre, written when he was under deportation to
Portugal.?This book brings out all the references as is preserved in
Portugal Libraries with authentication.

Is the wanton destruction in Goa carried out by Christian fanatics to be
forgotten altogether??

Do not forget the maxim, 'History repeats itself" and "those who forget
history are bound to repeat it".

Best regards,

Dr. U. G. Barad
Bhandare
2008-02-03 15:12:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear george:

were bhagat singh , rajguru and sukhdev animals too?

regards

B




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