Discussion:
Goans in East Arfica
(too old to reply)
Tony Barros
2004-10-11 17:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel !
?
Just a major correction before I reply to your email. I am assuming
you are referring to Remy DeMello - the clarinetist? from Toronto.
Remy is still living; however, he has been hospitalised for over ten
years at a Toronto hospispital after getting a stroke when he was on
his ?way to prepare a young goan boy for his final music exams.
?
Remy and his two older brothers - Santan - trumpeter , and the late
Jules - piano and accordion , started the DeMello Brothers band in?
my home town - Iringa probably in the early fifties?with their
uncle-Mathew on drums and Tony Fernandes on double bass.
?
They moved to Dar es Salaam in the mid-fifties- minus Mathew and
Tony- and co-opted other musicians in their band including Joaquim
Mendes - (ex Iringa) on drums.
?
Remy?- ?who was equally comfortable on the saxophone, trombone and
trumpet - later did a number of "stints" on the popular BI ships -
SS Uganda and SS Kenya before moving to Kuwait. He migrated to
Toronto in the nineties where he continued playing for various goan
bands and teaching music to goan youngsters.
?
Santan, who is over 70 years young, continues to play in Toronto and
their youngest brother - Francis - a great pianist and drummer -
plays solo professionally at a Toronto nite club.? Earlier, he had
his own band in Teheran, Iran before the overthrow of the Shah. Jules
passed away recently in London.
?
The Tony Ferns jazz quartet consisting of the three brothers - (Tony
on saxophone, Nerrie on piano and Hilary on drums ) and Polly
Fernandes on double bass moved to London in 1962 to play
professionally at nite spots in the English capital.
?
Tony, I believe passed away in the mid seventies and Nerrie formed
his own band?which included his wife -?a Sri Lankan crooner. I was
not aware that he was in Colombo but can now see the connection.
?
Hilary moved to Toronto and for a short period joined with Francis
DeMello and another bassist to play jazz? at some Toronto nite
spots.?(As a teenager?, I was fortunate to have acted in a concert in
late 1961 in Dar es Salaam which featured the Tony Ferns band).
?
Judy Luis Watson - born in Dar es Salaam - has her ?own group playing
Blues and R &B with her husband and partner- Paul Watson. They? have
won ?several awards and are based in Maryland State near Washington.
?
They have a great website and it can be accessed?under the Goan?
Overseas Digest thru the Goacom.com website.?Although I have never
met her , last year I had some great email communication with her
on? African music, Swahili songs and jazz music- particularly its
enrichment thru influences??from other cultures ; i.e. Asian Indian
classical music , traditional african music and Latino (Hispanic)
music.
?
Judy comes from a family of great musicians. Her father - Jerry Luis
played the accordion for the Jazz Swingers in Dar - the main goan
band in the mid-fifties; while her late brother - Ian and sister -
Jacinta? are accomplished musicians on their own right.
?
The caste system is part of our culture unfortunately, and although
the prejudices have decreased tremendously thru education and varied
exposures, it is still very conspicuous - albeit in subtle forms. You
can be rest assured that many goan parents who belong to a so-called?
"higher caste" continue to? state their misgivings
if one of their children wants to marry a person of a so-called
"lower caste". The normal excuse is that the person is not from a
good family.
?
In the First World - the situation is getting a little different- for
a number of reasons; including? parents not bringing any objections
knowing that the kid will? marry?what-ever the reasons.
?
I gave the Nairobi example because it was very glaring; I am sure
many so-called "low caste" folks? have? wealth of examples. And you
can be rest assured it is very much "alive" in Goa. One's family's
?true colors are clearly depicted when the subject of marriage is
surfaced, or a relationship- that ?has simmered between two people of
different social strata- has come to light.
?
?
rgds.
?
Tony Barros.
Union, New Jersey.
?
?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
cornel
2004-10-12 21:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tony,
Many, many thanks for further clarification on so many issues relating to
East African Goans, and in particular, the obscenity (my choice of word) of
Christian Goans, still believing in caste, without even a fragmentary shred
of genealogical and other scientific evidence for it. The paradox is that
these very caste believers/practioners complain about white, black, yellow
and other racisms but are too stupid or ignorant to recognize that casteism
is racism in terms of the core elements of which these reified social
constructs are constituted.

Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Barros" <barrost at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Cc: <cornel at btinternet.ent>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:58 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Goans in East Africa
George Pinto
2004-10-13 03:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel

Unfortunately, the caste system is alive and well and flourishing, not just in Goa. But do you
really expect a serious discussion, including from the cybergoan community, on such an important?
I think it is too difficult for most to interrupt nostalgic memories of Goa (including pre-1961),
fish and feni. Heaven forbid, they might even have to turn off the music, stop the dance or miss
a picnic.

Regards,
George
Post by cornel
Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
cornel
2004-10-13 11:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
rbarreto
2004-10-13 23:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Cornel ,

Why dont you try and organise a meet here in London ,
where Goans could discuss - debate * Caste * in Goan
society or * Casteism among Christian Goans *
I am sure the UK Government will fund this meet.

I am also sure you would get the support from Goa
Digest UK - Eddie D Sa , you will get the support
from GOA UK and other Goan Village organisations
based here in London. You could use the Goan Community
Hall .

If one feels strongly about something , one needs
to do something about it.

I am sure you will agree with my thoughts.

rene
Post by cornel
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
rbarreto
2004-10-13 23:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Cornel ,

Why dont you try and organise a meet here in London ,
where Goans could discuss - debate * Caste * in Goan
society or * Casteism among Christian Goans *
I am sure the UK Government will fund this meet.

I am also sure you would get the support from Goa
Digest UK - Eddie D Sa , you will get the support
from GOA UK and other Goan Village organisations
based here in London. You could use the Goan Community
Hall .

If one feels strongly about something , one needs
to do something about it.

I am sure you will agree with my thoughts.

rene
Post by cornel
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
rbarreto
2004-10-13 23:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Cornel ,

Why dont you try and organise a meet here in London ,
where Goans could discuss - debate * Caste * in Goan
society or * Casteism among Christian Goans *
I am sure the UK Government will fund this meet.

I am also sure you would get the support from Goa
Digest UK - Eddie D Sa , you will get the support
from GOA UK and other Goan Village organisations
based here in London. You could use the Goan Community
Hall .

If one feels strongly about something , one needs
to do something about it.

I am sure you will agree with my thoughts.

rene
Post by cornel
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
rbarreto
2004-10-13 23:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Cornel ,

Why dont you try and organise a meet here in London ,
where Goans could discuss - debate * Caste * in Goan
society or * Casteism among Christian Goans *
I am sure the UK Government will fund this meet.

I am also sure you would get the support from Goa
Digest UK - Eddie D Sa , you will get the support
from GOA UK and other Goan Village organisations
based here in London. You could use the Goan Community
Hall .

If one feels strongly about something , one needs
to do something about it.

I am sure you will agree with my thoughts.

rene
Post by cornel
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
rbarreto
2004-10-13 23:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Cornel ,

Why dont you try and organise a meet here in London ,
where Goans could discuss - debate * Caste * in Goan
society or * Casteism among Christian Goans *
I am sure the UK Government will fund this meet.

I am also sure you would get the support from Goa
Digest UK - Eddie D Sa , you will get the support
from GOA UK and other Goan Village organisations
based here in London. You could use the Goan Community
Hall .

If one feels strongly about something , one needs
to do something about it.

I am sure you will agree with my thoughts.

rene
Post by cornel
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
rbarreto
2004-10-13 23:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Cornel ,

Why dont you try and organise a meet here in London ,
where Goans could discuss - debate * Caste * in Goan
society or * Casteism among Christian Goans *
I am sure the UK Government will fund this meet.

I am also sure you would get the support from Goa
Digest UK - Eddie D Sa , you will get the support
from GOA UK and other Goan Village organisations
based here in London. You could use the Goan Community
Hall .

If one feels strongly about something , one needs
to do something about it.

I am sure you will agree with my thoughts.

rene
Post by cornel
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
rbarreto
2004-10-13 23:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Cornel ,

Why dont you try and organise a meet here in London ,
where Goans could discuss - debate * Caste * in Goan
society or * Casteism among Christian Goans *
I am sure the UK Government will fund this meet.

I am also sure you would get the support from Goa
Digest UK - Eddie D Sa , you will get the support
from GOA UK and other Goan Village organisations
based here in London. You could use the Goan Community
Hall .

If one feels strongly about something , one needs
to do something about it.

I am sure you will agree with my thoughts.

rene
Post by cornel
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
cornel
2004-10-13 11:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
cornel
2004-10-13 11:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
cornel
2004-10-13 11:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
cornel
2004-10-13 11:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
cornel
2004-10-13 11:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
cornel
2004-10-13 11:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi George,
I am hopeful that, some day, someone will take my bait and try to justify
casteism among Christian Goans. Nevertheless, thank you for your welcome
comment to my post.
Regards,
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Pinto" <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:41 A
Bernado Colaco
2004-10-13 11:34:35 UTC
Permalink
A few days ago some were ranting that Goanet turned
into a Portuguese net.

Now it is Afrikander net innit? But what is wrong with
that? In the 70?s Afrikanders returned with kathli
potlis that included a Morris Minor to Goa.

Many could not establish themselves, especially the
minors, and many left for Canada, UK, and elesewhere.

Some have become Portuguese citizens again. A few
hated Goans who speak Portuguese and this hate has
time and appeared on Goanet. Those left in Goa became
teachers (females) the males would be found in
tavernas downing their sorrows for making the wrong
decisions.

On the other hand in Africa these Goans kept a good
name for Goa. According to Africans who I have met in
the UK, they say there is a great difference in Goans
and the indian banyia business people.

B. Cola?o








___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Tony Barros
2004-10-11 17:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel !
?
Just a major correction before I reply to your email. I am assuming
you are referring to Remy DeMello - the clarinetist? from Toronto.
Remy is still living; however, he has been hospitalised for over ten
years at a Toronto hospispital after getting a stroke when he was on
his ?way to prepare a young goan boy for his final music exams.
?
Remy and his two older brothers - Santan - trumpeter , and the late
Jules - piano and accordion , started the DeMello Brothers band in?
my home town - Iringa probably in the early fifties?with their
uncle-Mathew on drums and Tony Fernandes on double bass.
?
They moved to Dar es Salaam in the mid-fifties- minus Mathew and
Tony- and co-opted other musicians in their band including Joaquim
Mendes - (ex Iringa) on drums.
?
Remy?- ?who was equally comfortable on the saxophone, trombone and
trumpet - later did a number of "stints" on the popular BI ships -
SS Uganda and SS Kenya before moving to Kuwait. He migrated to
Toronto in the nineties where he continued playing for various goan
bands and teaching music to goan youngsters.
?
Santan, who is over 70 years young, continues to play in Toronto and
their youngest brother - Francis - a great pianist and drummer -
plays solo professionally at a Toronto nite club.? Earlier, he had
his own band in Teheran, Iran before the overthrow of the Shah. Jules
passed away recently in London.
?
The Tony Ferns jazz quartet consisting of the three brothers - (Tony
on saxophone, Nerrie on piano and Hilary on drums ) and Polly
Fernandes on double bass moved to London in 1962 to play
professionally at nite spots in the English capital.
?
Tony, I believe passed away in the mid seventies and Nerrie formed
his own band?which included his wife -?a Sri Lankan crooner. I was
not aware that he was in Colombo but can now see the connection.
?
Hilary moved to Toronto and for a short period joined with Francis
DeMello and another bassist to play jazz? at some Toronto nite
spots.?(As a teenager?, I was fortunate to have acted in a concert in
late 1961 in Dar es Salaam which featured the Tony Ferns band).
?
Judy Luis Watson - born in Dar es Salaam - has her ?own group playing
Blues and R &B with her husband and partner- Paul Watson. They? have
won ?several awards and are based in Maryland State near Washington.
?
They have a great website and it can be accessed?under the Goan?
Overseas Digest thru the Goacom.com website.?Although I have never
met her , last year I had some great email communication with her
on? African music, Swahili songs and jazz music- particularly its
enrichment thru influences??from other cultures ; i.e. Asian Indian
classical music , traditional african music and Latino (Hispanic)
music.
?
Judy comes from a family of great musicians. Her father - Jerry Luis
played the accordion for the Jazz Swingers in Dar - the main goan
band in the mid-fifties; while her late brother - Ian and sister -
Jacinta? are accomplished musicians on their own right.
?
The caste system is part of our culture unfortunately, and although
the prejudices have decreased tremendously thru education and varied
exposures, it is still very conspicuous - albeit in subtle forms. You
can be rest assured that many goan parents who belong to a so-called?
"higher caste" continue to? state their misgivings
if one of their children wants to marry a person of a so-called
"lower caste". The normal excuse is that the person is not from a
good family.
?
In the First World - the situation is getting a little different- for
a number of reasons; including? parents not bringing any objections
knowing that the kid will? marry?what-ever the reasons.
?
I gave the Nairobi example because it was very glaring; I am sure
many so-called "low caste" folks? have? wealth of examples. And you
can be rest assured it is very much "alive" in Goa. One's family's
?true colors are clearly depicted when the subject of marriage is
surfaced, or a relationship- that ?has simmered between two people of
different social strata- has come to light.
?
?
rgds.
?
Tony Barros.
Union, New Jersey.
?
?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
cornel
2004-10-12 21:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tony,
Many, many thanks for further clarification on so many issues relating to
East African Goans, and in particular, the obscenity (my choice of word) of
Christian Goans, still believing in caste, without even a fragmentary shred
of genealogical and other scientific evidence for it. The paradox is that
these very caste believers/practioners complain about white, black, yellow
and other racisms but are too stupid or ignorant to recognize that casteism
is racism in terms of the core elements of which these reified social
constructs are constituted.

Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Barros" <barrost at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Cc: <cornel at btinternet.ent>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:58 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Goans in East Africa
George Pinto
2004-10-13 03:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel

Unfortunately, the caste system is alive and well and flourishing, not just in Goa. But do you
really expect a serious discussion, including from the cybergoan community, on such an important?
I think it is too difficult for most to interrupt nostalgic memories of Goa (including pre-1961),
fish and feni. Heaven forbid, they might even have to turn off the music, stop the dance or miss
a picnic.

Regards,
George
Post by cornel
Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
Bernado Colaco
2004-10-13 11:34:35 UTC
Permalink
A few days ago some were ranting that Goanet turned
into a Portuguese net.

Now it is Afrikander net innit? But what is wrong with
that? In the 70?s Afrikanders returned with kathli
potlis that included a Morris Minor to Goa.

Many could not establish themselves, especially the
minors, and many left for Canada, UK, and elesewhere.

Some have become Portuguese citizens again. A few
hated Goans who speak Portuguese and this hate has
time and appeared on Goanet. Those left in Goa became
teachers (females) the males would be found in
tavernas downing their sorrows for making the wrong
decisions.

On the other hand in Africa these Goans kept a good
name for Goa. According to Africans who I have met in
the UK, they say there is a great difference in Goans
and the indian banyia business people.

B. Cola?o








___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Tony Barros
2004-10-11 17:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel !
?
Just a major correction before I reply to your email. I am assuming
you are referring to Remy DeMello - the clarinetist? from Toronto.
Remy is still living; however, he has been hospitalised for over ten
years at a Toronto hospispital after getting a stroke when he was on
his ?way to prepare a young goan boy for his final music exams.
?
Remy and his two older brothers - Santan - trumpeter , and the late
Jules - piano and accordion , started the DeMello Brothers band in?
my home town - Iringa probably in the early fifties?with their
uncle-Mathew on drums and Tony Fernandes on double bass.
?
They moved to Dar es Salaam in the mid-fifties- minus Mathew and
Tony- and co-opted other musicians in their band including Joaquim
Mendes - (ex Iringa) on drums.
?
Remy?- ?who was equally comfortable on the saxophone, trombone and
trumpet - later did a number of "stints" on the popular BI ships -
SS Uganda and SS Kenya before moving to Kuwait. He migrated to
Toronto in the nineties where he continued playing for various goan
bands and teaching music to goan youngsters.
?
Santan, who is over 70 years young, continues to play in Toronto and
their youngest brother - Francis - a great pianist and drummer -
plays solo professionally at a Toronto nite club.? Earlier, he had
his own band in Teheran, Iran before the overthrow of the Shah. Jules
passed away recently in London.
?
The Tony Ferns jazz quartet consisting of the three brothers - (Tony
on saxophone, Nerrie on piano and Hilary on drums ) and Polly
Fernandes on double bass moved to London in 1962 to play
professionally at nite spots in the English capital.
?
Tony, I believe passed away in the mid seventies and Nerrie formed
his own band?which included his wife -?a Sri Lankan crooner. I was
not aware that he was in Colombo but can now see the connection.
?
Hilary moved to Toronto and for a short period joined with Francis
DeMello and another bassist to play jazz? at some Toronto nite
spots.?(As a teenager?, I was fortunate to have acted in a concert in
late 1961 in Dar es Salaam which featured the Tony Ferns band).
?
Judy Luis Watson - born in Dar es Salaam - has her ?own group playing
Blues and R &B with her husband and partner- Paul Watson. They? have
won ?several awards and are based in Maryland State near Washington.
?
They have a great website and it can be accessed?under the Goan?
Overseas Digest thru the Goacom.com website.?Although I have never
met her , last year I had some great email communication with her
on? African music, Swahili songs and jazz music- particularly its
enrichment thru influences??from other cultures ; i.e. Asian Indian
classical music , traditional african music and Latino (Hispanic)
music.
?
Judy comes from a family of great musicians. Her father - Jerry Luis
played the accordion for the Jazz Swingers in Dar - the main goan
band in the mid-fifties; while her late brother - Ian and sister -
Jacinta? are accomplished musicians on their own right.
?
The caste system is part of our culture unfortunately, and although
the prejudices have decreased tremendously thru education and varied
exposures, it is still very conspicuous - albeit in subtle forms. You
can be rest assured that many goan parents who belong to a so-called?
"higher caste" continue to? state their misgivings
if one of their children wants to marry a person of a so-called
"lower caste". The normal excuse is that the person is not from a
good family.
?
In the First World - the situation is getting a little different- for
a number of reasons; including? parents not bringing any objections
knowing that the kid will? marry?what-ever the reasons.
?
I gave the Nairobi example because it was very glaring; I am sure
many so-called "low caste" folks? have? wealth of examples. And you
can be rest assured it is very much "alive" in Goa. One's family's
?true colors are clearly depicted when the subject of marriage is
surfaced, or a relationship- that ?has simmered between two people of
different social strata- has come to light.
?
?
rgds.
?
Tony Barros.
Union, New Jersey.
?
?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
cornel
2004-10-12 21:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tony,
Many, many thanks for further clarification on so many issues relating to
East African Goans, and in particular, the obscenity (my choice of word) of
Christian Goans, still believing in caste, without even a fragmentary shred
of genealogical and other scientific evidence for it. The paradox is that
these very caste believers/practioners complain about white, black, yellow
and other racisms but are too stupid or ignorant to recognize that casteism
is racism in terms of the core elements of which these reified social
constructs are constituted.

Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Barros" <barrost at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Cc: <cornel at btinternet.ent>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:58 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Goans in East Africa
George Pinto
2004-10-13 03:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel

Unfortunately, the caste system is alive and well and flourishing, not just in Goa. But do you
really expect a serious discussion, including from the cybergoan community, on such an important?
I think it is too difficult for most to interrupt nostalgic memories of Goa (including pre-1961),
fish and feni. Heaven forbid, they might even have to turn off the music, stop the dance or miss
a picnic.

Regards,
George
Post by cornel
Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
Bernado Colaco
2004-10-13 11:34:35 UTC
Permalink
A few days ago some were ranting that Goanet turned
into a Portuguese net.

Now it is Afrikander net innit? But what is wrong with
that? In the 70?s Afrikanders returned with kathli
potlis that included a Morris Minor to Goa.

Many could not establish themselves, especially the
minors, and many left for Canada, UK, and elesewhere.

Some have become Portuguese citizens again. A few
hated Goans who speak Portuguese and this hate has
time and appeared on Goanet. Those left in Goa became
teachers (females) the males would be found in
tavernas downing their sorrows for making the wrong
decisions.

On the other hand in Africa these Goans kept a good
name for Goa. According to Africans who I have met in
the UK, they say there is a great difference in Goans
and the indian banyia business people.

B. Cola?o








___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Tony Barros
2004-10-11 17:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel !
?
Just a major correction before I reply to your email. I am assuming
you are referring to Remy DeMello - the clarinetist? from Toronto.
Remy is still living; however, he has been hospitalised for over ten
years at a Toronto hospispital after getting a stroke when he was on
his ?way to prepare a young goan boy for his final music exams.
?
Remy and his two older brothers - Santan - trumpeter , and the late
Jules - piano and accordion , started the DeMello Brothers band in?
my home town - Iringa probably in the early fifties?with their
uncle-Mathew on drums and Tony Fernandes on double bass.
?
They moved to Dar es Salaam in the mid-fifties- minus Mathew and
Tony- and co-opted other musicians in their band including Joaquim
Mendes - (ex Iringa) on drums.
?
Remy?- ?who was equally comfortable on the saxophone, trombone and
trumpet - later did a number of "stints" on the popular BI ships -
SS Uganda and SS Kenya before moving to Kuwait. He migrated to
Toronto in the nineties where he continued playing for various goan
bands and teaching music to goan youngsters.
?
Santan, who is over 70 years young, continues to play in Toronto and
their youngest brother - Francis - a great pianist and drummer -
plays solo professionally at a Toronto nite club.? Earlier, he had
his own band in Teheran, Iran before the overthrow of the Shah. Jules
passed away recently in London.
?
The Tony Ferns jazz quartet consisting of the three brothers - (Tony
on saxophone, Nerrie on piano and Hilary on drums ) and Polly
Fernandes on double bass moved to London in 1962 to play
professionally at nite spots in the English capital.
?
Tony, I believe passed away in the mid seventies and Nerrie formed
his own band?which included his wife -?a Sri Lankan crooner. I was
not aware that he was in Colombo but can now see the connection.
?
Hilary moved to Toronto and for a short period joined with Francis
DeMello and another bassist to play jazz? at some Toronto nite
spots.?(As a teenager?, I was fortunate to have acted in a concert in
late 1961 in Dar es Salaam which featured the Tony Ferns band).
?
Judy Luis Watson - born in Dar es Salaam - has her ?own group playing
Blues and R &B with her husband and partner- Paul Watson. They? have
won ?several awards and are based in Maryland State near Washington.
?
They have a great website and it can be accessed?under the Goan?
Overseas Digest thru the Goacom.com website.?Although I have never
met her , last year I had some great email communication with her
on? African music, Swahili songs and jazz music- particularly its
enrichment thru influences??from other cultures ; i.e. Asian Indian
classical music , traditional african music and Latino (Hispanic)
music.
?
Judy comes from a family of great musicians. Her father - Jerry Luis
played the accordion for the Jazz Swingers in Dar - the main goan
band in the mid-fifties; while her late brother - Ian and sister -
Jacinta? are accomplished musicians on their own right.
?
The caste system is part of our culture unfortunately, and although
the prejudices have decreased tremendously thru education and varied
exposures, it is still very conspicuous - albeit in subtle forms. You
can be rest assured that many goan parents who belong to a so-called?
"higher caste" continue to? state their misgivings
if one of their children wants to marry a person of a so-called
"lower caste". The normal excuse is that the person is not from a
good family.
?
In the First World - the situation is getting a little different- for
a number of reasons; including? parents not bringing any objections
knowing that the kid will? marry?what-ever the reasons.
?
I gave the Nairobi example because it was very glaring; I am sure
many so-called "low caste" folks? have? wealth of examples. And you
can be rest assured it is very much "alive" in Goa. One's family's
?true colors are clearly depicted when the subject of marriage is
surfaced, or a relationship- that ?has simmered between two people of
different social strata- has come to light.
?
?
rgds.
?
Tony Barros.
Union, New Jersey.
?
?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
cornel
2004-10-12 21:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tony,
Many, many thanks for further clarification on so many issues relating to
East African Goans, and in particular, the obscenity (my choice of word) of
Christian Goans, still believing in caste, without even a fragmentary shred
of genealogical and other scientific evidence for it. The paradox is that
these very caste believers/practioners complain about white, black, yellow
and other racisms but are too stupid or ignorant to recognize that casteism
is racism in terms of the core elements of which these reified social
constructs are constituted.

Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Barros" <barrost at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Cc: <cornel at btinternet.ent>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:58 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Goans in East Africa
George Pinto
2004-10-13 03:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel

Unfortunately, the caste system is alive and well and flourishing, not just in Goa. But do you
really expect a serious discussion, including from the cybergoan community, on such an important?
I think it is too difficult for most to interrupt nostalgic memories of Goa (including pre-1961),
fish and feni. Heaven forbid, they might even have to turn off the music, stop the dance or miss
a picnic.

Regards,
George
Post by cornel
Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
Bernado Colaco
2004-10-13 11:34:35 UTC
Permalink
A few days ago some were ranting that Goanet turned
into a Portuguese net.

Now it is Afrikander net innit? But what is wrong with
that? In the 70?s Afrikanders returned with kathli
potlis that included a Morris Minor to Goa.

Many could not establish themselves, especially the
minors, and many left for Canada, UK, and elesewhere.

Some have become Portuguese citizens again. A few
hated Goans who speak Portuguese and this hate has
time and appeared on Goanet. Those left in Goa became
teachers (females) the males would be found in
tavernas downing their sorrows for making the wrong
decisions.

On the other hand in Africa these Goans kept a good
name for Goa. According to Africans who I have met in
the UK, they say there is a great difference in Goans
and the indian banyia business people.

B. Cola?o








___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Tony Barros
2004-10-11 17:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel !
?
Just a major correction before I reply to your email. I am assuming
you are referring to Remy DeMello - the clarinetist? from Toronto.
Remy is still living; however, he has been hospitalised for over ten
years at a Toronto hospispital after getting a stroke when he was on
his ?way to prepare a young goan boy for his final music exams.
?
Remy and his two older brothers - Santan - trumpeter , and the late
Jules - piano and accordion , started the DeMello Brothers band in?
my home town - Iringa probably in the early fifties?with their
uncle-Mathew on drums and Tony Fernandes on double bass.
?
They moved to Dar es Salaam in the mid-fifties- minus Mathew and
Tony- and co-opted other musicians in their band including Joaquim
Mendes - (ex Iringa) on drums.
?
Remy?- ?who was equally comfortable on the saxophone, trombone and
trumpet - later did a number of "stints" on the popular BI ships -
SS Uganda and SS Kenya before moving to Kuwait. He migrated to
Toronto in the nineties where he continued playing for various goan
bands and teaching music to goan youngsters.
?
Santan, who is over 70 years young, continues to play in Toronto and
their youngest brother - Francis - a great pianist and drummer -
plays solo professionally at a Toronto nite club.? Earlier, he had
his own band in Teheran, Iran before the overthrow of the Shah. Jules
passed away recently in London.
?
The Tony Ferns jazz quartet consisting of the three brothers - (Tony
on saxophone, Nerrie on piano and Hilary on drums ) and Polly
Fernandes on double bass moved to London in 1962 to play
professionally at nite spots in the English capital.
?
Tony, I believe passed away in the mid seventies and Nerrie formed
his own band?which included his wife -?a Sri Lankan crooner. I was
not aware that he was in Colombo but can now see the connection.
?
Hilary moved to Toronto and for a short period joined with Francis
DeMello and another bassist to play jazz? at some Toronto nite
spots.?(As a teenager?, I was fortunate to have acted in a concert in
late 1961 in Dar es Salaam which featured the Tony Ferns band).
?
Judy Luis Watson - born in Dar es Salaam - has her ?own group playing
Blues and R &B with her husband and partner- Paul Watson. They? have
won ?several awards and are based in Maryland State near Washington.
?
They have a great website and it can be accessed?under the Goan?
Overseas Digest thru the Goacom.com website.?Although I have never
met her , last year I had some great email communication with her
on? African music, Swahili songs and jazz music- particularly its
enrichment thru influences??from other cultures ; i.e. Asian Indian
classical music , traditional african music and Latino (Hispanic)
music.
?
Judy comes from a family of great musicians. Her father - Jerry Luis
played the accordion for the Jazz Swingers in Dar - the main goan
band in the mid-fifties; while her late brother - Ian and sister -
Jacinta? are accomplished musicians on their own right.
?
The caste system is part of our culture unfortunately, and although
the prejudices have decreased tremendously thru education and varied
exposures, it is still very conspicuous - albeit in subtle forms. You
can be rest assured that many goan parents who belong to a so-called?
"higher caste" continue to? state their misgivings
if one of their children wants to marry a person of a so-called
"lower caste". The normal excuse is that the person is not from a
good family.
?
In the First World - the situation is getting a little different- for
a number of reasons; including? parents not bringing any objections
knowing that the kid will? marry?what-ever the reasons.
?
I gave the Nairobi example because it was very glaring; I am sure
many so-called "low caste" folks? have? wealth of examples. And you
can be rest assured it is very much "alive" in Goa. One's family's
?true colors are clearly depicted when the subject of marriage is
surfaced, or a relationship- that ?has simmered between two people of
different social strata- has come to light.
?
?
rgds.
?
Tony Barros.
Union, New Jersey.
?
?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
cornel
2004-10-12 21:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tony,
Many, many thanks for further clarification on so many issues relating to
East African Goans, and in particular, the obscenity (my choice of word) of
Christian Goans, still believing in caste, without even a fragmentary shred
of genealogical and other scientific evidence for it. The paradox is that
these very caste believers/practioners complain about white, black, yellow
and other racisms but are too stupid or ignorant to recognize that casteism
is racism in terms of the core elements of which these reified social
constructs are constituted.

Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Barros" <barrost at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Cc: <cornel at btinternet.ent>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:58 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Goans in East Africa
George Pinto
2004-10-13 03:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel

Unfortunately, the caste system is alive and well and flourishing, not just in Goa. But do you
really expect a serious discussion, including from the cybergoan community, on such an important?
I think it is too difficult for most to interrupt nostalgic memories of Goa (including pre-1961),
fish and feni. Heaven forbid, they might even have to turn off the music, stop the dance or miss
a picnic.

Regards,
George
Post by cornel
Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
Bernado Colaco
2004-10-13 11:34:35 UTC
Permalink
A few days ago some were ranting that Goanet turned
into a Portuguese net.

Now it is Afrikander net innit? But what is wrong with
that? In the 70?s Afrikanders returned with kathli
potlis that included a Morris Minor to Goa.

Many could not establish themselves, especially the
minors, and many left for Canada, UK, and elesewhere.

Some have become Portuguese citizens again. A few
hated Goans who speak Portuguese and this hate has
time and appeared on Goanet. Those left in Goa became
teachers (females) the males would be found in
tavernas downing their sorrows for making the wrong
decisions.

On the other hand in Africa these Goans kept a good
name for Goa. According to Africans who I have met in
the UK, they say there is a great difference in Goans
and the indian banyia business people.

B. Cola?o








___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Tony Barros
2004-10-11 17:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel !
?
Just a major correction before I reply to your email. I am assuming
you are referring to Remy DeMello - the clarinetist? from Toronto.
Remy is still living; however, he has been hospitalised for over ten
years at a Toronto hospispital after getting a stroke when he was on
his ?way to prepare a young goan boy for his final music exams.
?
Remy and his two older brothers - Santan - trumpeter , and the late
Jules - piano and accordion , started the DeMello Brothers band in?
my home town - Iringa probably in the early fifties?with their
uncle-Mathew on drums and Tony Fernandes on double bass.
?
They moved to Dar es Salaam in the mid-fifties- minus Mathew and
Tony- and co-opted other musicians in their band including Joaquim
Mendes - (ex Iringa) on drums.
?
Remy?- ?who was equally comfortable on the saxophone, trombone and
trumpet - later did a number of "stints" on the popular BI ships -
SS Uganda and SS Kenya before moving to Kuwait. He migrated to
Toronto in the nineties where he continued playing for various goan
bands and teaching music to goan youngsters.
?
Santan, who is over 70 years young, continues to play in Toronto and
their youngest brother - Francis - a great pianist and drummer -
plays solo professionally at a Toronto nite club.? Earlier, he had
his own band in Teheran, Iran before the overthrow of the Shah. Jules
passed away recently in London.
?
The Tony Ferns jazz quartet consisting of the three brothers - (Tony
on saxophone, Nerrie on piano and Hilary on drums ) and Polly
Fernandes on double bass moved to London in 1962 to play
professionally at nite spots in the English capital.
?
Tony, I believe passed away in the mid seventies and Nerrie formed
his own band?which included his wife -?a Sri Lankan crooner. I was
not aware that he was in Colombo but can now see the connection.
?
Hilary moved to Toronto and for a short period joined with Francis
DeMello and another bassist to play jazz? at some Toronto nite
spots.?(As a teenager?, I was fortunate to have acted in a concert in
late 1961 in Dar es Salaam which featured the Tony Ferns band).
?
Judy Luis Watson - born in Dar es Salaam - has her ?own group playing
Blues and R &B with her husband and partner- Paul Watson. They? have
won ?several awards and are based in Maryland State near Washington.
?
They have a great website and it can be accessed?under the Goan?
Overseas Digest thru the Goacom.com website.?Although I have never
met her , last year I had some great email communication with her
on? African music, Swahili songs and jazz music- particularly its
enrichment thru influences??from other cultures ; i.e. Asian Indian
classical music , traditional african music and Latino (Hispanic)
music.
?
Judy comes from a family of great musicians. Her father - Jerry Luis
played the accordion for the Jazz Swingers in Dar - the main goan
band in the mid-fifties; while her late brother - Ian and sister -
Jacinta? are accomplished musicians on their own right.
?
The caste system is part of our culture unfortunately, and although
the prejudices have decreased tremendously thru education and varied
exposures, it is still very conspicuous - albeit in subtle forms. You
can be rest assured that many goan parents who belong to a so-called?
"higher caste" continue to? state their misgivings
if one of their children wants to marry a person of a so-called
"lower caste". The normal excuse is that the person is not from a
good family.
?
In the First World - the situation is getting a little different- for
a number of reasons; including? parents not bringing any objections
knowing that the kid will? marry?what-ever the reasons.
?
I gave the Nairobi example because it was very glaring; I am sure
many so-called "low caste" folks? have? wealth of examples. And you
can be rest assured it is very much "alive" in Goa. One's family's
?true colors are clearly depicted when the subject of marriage is
surfaced, or a relationship- that ?has simmered between two people of
different social strata- has come to light.
?
?
rgds.
?
Tony Barros.
Union, New Jersey.
?
?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
cornel
2004-10-12 21:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tony,
Many, many thanks for further clarification on so many issues relating to
East African Goans, and in particular, the obscenity (my choice of word) of
Christian Goans, still believing in caste, without even a fragmentary shred
of genealogical and other scientific evidence for it. The paradox is that
these very caste believers/practioners complain about white, black, yellow
and other racisms but are too stupid or ignorant to recognize that casteism
is racism in terms of the core elements of which these reified social
constructs are constituted.

Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Barros" <barrost at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Cc: <cornel at btinternet.ent>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:58 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Goans in East Africa
George Pinto
2004-10-13 03:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel

Unfortunately, the caste system is alive and well and flourishing, not just in Goa. But do you
really expect a serious discussion, including from the cybergoan community, on such an important?
I think it is too difficult for most to interrupt nostalgic memories of Goa (including pre-1961),
fish and feni. Heaven forbid, they might even have to turn off the music, stop the dance or miss
a picnic.

Regards,
George
Post by cornel
Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
Bernado Colaco
2004-10-13 11:34:35 UTC
Permalink
A few days ago some were ranting that Goanet turned
into a Portuguese net.

Now it is Afrikander net innit? But what is wrong with
that? In the 70?s Afrikanders returned with kathli
potlis that included a Morris Minor to Goa.

Many could not establish themselves, especially the
minors, and many left for Canada, UK, and elesewhere.

Some have become Portuguese citizens again. A few
hated Goans who speak Portuguese and this hate has
time and appeared on Goanet. Those left in Goa became
teachers (females) the males would be found in
tavernas downing their sorrows for making the wrong
decisions.

On the other hand in Africa these Goans kept a good
name for Goa. According to Africans who I have met in
the UK, they say there is a great difference in Goans
and the indian banyia business people.

B. Cola?o








___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Tony Barros
2004-10-11 17:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel !
?
Just a major correction before I reply to your email. I am assuming
you are referring to Remy DeMello - the clarinetist? from Toronto.
Remy is still living; however, he has been hospitalised for over ten
years at a Toronto hospispital after getting a stroke when he was on
his ?way to prepare a young goan boy for his final music exams.
?
Remy and his two older brothers - Santan - trumpeter , and the late
Jules - piano and accordion , started the DeMello Brothers band in?
my home town - Iringa probably in the early fifties?with their
uncle-Mathew on drums and Tony Fernandes on double bass.
?
They moved to Dar es Salaam in the mid-fifties- minus Mathew and
Tony- and co-opted other musicians in their band including Joaquim
Mendes - (ex Iringa) on drums.
?
Remy?- ?who was equally comfortable on the saxophone, trombone and
trumpet - later did a number of "stints" on the popular BI ships -
SS Uganda and SS Kenya before moving to Kuwait. He migrated to
Toronto in the nineties where he continued playing for various goan
bands and teaching music to goan youngsters.
?
Santan, who is over 70 years young, continues to play in Toronto and
their youngest brother - Francis - a great pianist and drummer -
plays solo professionally at a Toronto nite club.? Earlier, he had
his own band in Teheran, Iran before the overthrow of the Shah. Jules
passed away recently in London.
?
The Tony Ferns jazz quartet consisting of the three brothers - (Tony
on saxophone, Nerrie on piano and Hilary on drums ) and Polly
Fernandes on double bass moved to London in 1962 to play
professionally at nite spots in the English capital.
?
Tony, I believe passed away in the mid seventies and Nerrie formed
his own band?which included his wife -?a Sri Lankan crooner. I was
not aware that he was in Colombo but can now see the connection.
?
Hilary moved to Toronto and for a short period joined with Francis
DeMello and another bassist to play jazz? at some Toronto nite
spots.?(As a teenager?, I was fortunate to have acted in a concert in
late 1961 in Dar es Salaam which featured the Tony Ferns band).
?
Judy Luis Watson - born in Dar es Salaam - has her ?own group playing
Blues and R &B with her husband and partner- Paul Watson. They? have
won ?several awards and are based in Maryland State near Washington.
?
They have a great website and it can be accessed?under the Goan?
Overseas Digest thru the Goacom.com website.?Although I have never
met her , last year I had some great email communication with her
on? African music, Swahili songs and jazz music- particularly its
enrichment thru influences??from other cultures ; i.e. Asian Indian
classical music , traditional african music and Latino (Hispanic)
music.
?
Judy comes from a family of great musicians. Her father - Jerry Luis
played the accordion for the Jazz Swingers in Dar - the main goan
band in the mid-fifties; while her late brother - Ian and sister -
Jacinta? are accomplished musicians on their own right.
?
The caste system is part of our culture unfortunately, and although
the prejudices have decreased tremendously thru education and varied
exposures, it is still very conspicuous - albeit in subtle forms. You
can be rest assured that many goan parents who belong to a so-called?
"higher caste" continue to? state their misgivings
if one of their children wants to marry a person of a so-called
"lower caste". The normal excuse is that the person is not from a
good family.
?
In the First World - the situation is getting a little different- for
a number of reasons; including? parents not bringing any objections
knowing that the kid will? marry?what-ever the reasons.
?
I gave the Nairobi example because it was very glaring; I am sure
many so-called "low caste" folks? have? wealth of examples. And you
can be rest assured it is very much "alive" in Goa. One's family's
?true colors are clearly depicted when the subject of marriage is
surfaced, or a relationship- that ?has simmered between two people of
different social strata- has come to light.
?
?
rgds.
?
Tony Barros.
Union, New Jersey.
?
?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
cornel
2004-10-12 21:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tony,
Many, many thanks for further clarification on so many issues relating to
East African Goans, and in particular, the obscenity (my choice of word) of
Christian Goans, still believing in caste, without even a fragmentary shred
of genealogical and other scientific evidence for it. The paradox is that
these very caste believers/practioners complain about white, black, yellow
and other racisms but are too stupid or ignorant to recognize that casteism
is racism in terms of the core elements of which these reified social
constructs are constituted.

Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Barros" <barrost at yahoo.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Cc: <cornel at btinternet.ent>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:58 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Goans in East Africa
George Pinto
2004-10-13 03:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cornel

Unfortunately, the caste system is alive and well and flourishing, not just in Goa. But do you
really expect a serious discussion, including from the cybergoan community, on such an important?
I think it is too difficult for most to interrupt nostalgic memories of Goa (including pre-1961),
fish and feni. Heaven forbid, they might even have to turn off the music, stop the dance or miss
a picnic.

Regards,
George
Post by cornel
Most curiously, I never get a retort to my strongly asserted position, as
above, from Christian Goan casteists who are committed to caste
ideologically and/or in practice. I therefore ask if this is too big a
challenge for today's Christian Goan casteists? Is it too
impolite/insensitive or politically incorrect to raise such an issue? Or has
the ghost of caste now given up? Or, even more, is it, fortunately, a
chimera or illusion in this day and age, in the Western Goan Diaspora while
it still festers and oozes pus like an unhealing sore in parts of Goa?
Cornel
Bernado Colaco
2004-10-13 11:34:35 UTC
Permalink
A few days ago some were ranting that Goanet turned
into a Portuguese net.

Now it is Afrikander net innit? But what is wrong with
that? In the 70?s Afrikanders returned with kathli
potlis that included a Morris Minor to Goa.

Many could not establish themselves, especially the
minors, and many left for Canada, UK, and elesewhere.

Some have become Portuguese citizens again. A few
hated Goans who speak Portuguese and this hate has
time and appeared on Goanet. Those left in Goa became
teachers (females) the males would be found in
tavernas downing their sorrows for making the wrong
decisions.

On the other hand in Africa these Goans kept a good
name for Goa. According to Africans who I have met in
the UK, they say there is a great difference in Goans
and the indian banyia business people.

B. Cola?o








___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Loading...