Discussion:
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
(too old to reply)
JoeGoaUk
2009-10-24 19:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
?
Shitting Zone
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039629749/sizes/l/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375678/
?
?
Sleeping zone
what's sleeping zone also mean?
It also mean shitting zone, pissing zone, spitting zone etc etc
As everything done around same place.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040378106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751572/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040377728/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039626797/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4019372324/
all benches taken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4037301762/
Traffic cop sleeping?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751910/
?
Fresh batch has just arrived?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033752646/
?
graveyard on the pavements?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375008/
?
city Kiosk owners are back?
Near Cine national
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462325/
?
?
Dangerous Parking near Panjim Church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932546271/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3933328004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932545311/
?
?
At the Campal art Park entrance
'Goaway you visitors, something sinister happening here'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3929814827/
?
?
One lane of DB Road reserved for parking?
For the customers of the new restaurant owned by dy. Mayor
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3916973472/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3912764841/
related
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3995720726/
?
?
dumping Zone at KTC Bus Stand
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888279159/
another, nearby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888278165/
?


Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk

for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/

For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa

In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc


Add whatever you love to the Yahoo! India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
Carvalho
2009-10-24 22:14:02 UTC
Permalink
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's photographs. 20 years ago, I did my college in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho. Every weekend I would go home and return Monday morning in time for college. As Panjim came into view, my hair would literally stand of edge every Monday without fail, this magnificent town with its Church, the Bishop's palace, the sumptious houses of its gentry in Altinho, the merchant class in the Latin quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time at Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi, then a short trip on a bike to Mira Mar and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula. All that is gone now. It's a faceless town, caught within a sad embrace of unappealing modernity and the quivering collapse of its former glory. Now, Panjim as I knew it lives only in my memory.

best,
selma
From: JoeGoaUk <joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: goanet at goanet.org
Cc: "Parrikar Manohar bjp" <parrikar at bjpgoa.in>, commissioner at ccpgoa.com, "New Herald Id" <editor at herald-goa.com>, "goan NRI" <goan-nri at yahoogroups.co.in>, "Parrikar" <manoharparrikar at yahoo.co.in>, "surendra Furtado ccp" <alcinpac at sancharnet.in>, "clinton vaz" <klintvaz at gmail.com>, gteditor at gmail.com
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 2:01 PM
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim
Pics
?
Shitting Zone
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039629749/sizes/l/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375678/
?
?
Sleeping zone
what's sleeping zone also mean?
It also mean shitting zone, pissing zone, spitting zone etc
etc
As everything done around same place.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040378106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751572/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040377728/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039626797/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4019372324/
all benches taken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4037301762/
Traffic cop sleeping?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751910/
?
Fresh batch has just arrived?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033752646/
?
graveyard on the pavements?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375008/
?
city Kiosk owners are back?
Near Cine national
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462325/
?
?
Dangerous Parking near Panjim Church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932546271/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3933328004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932545311/
?
?
At the Campal art Park entrance
'Goaway you visitors, something sinister happening here'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3929814827/
?
?
One lane of DB Road reserved for parking?
For the customers of the new restaurant owned by dy. Mayor
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3916973472/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3912764841/
related
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3995720726/
?
?
dumping Zone at KTC Bus Stand
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888279159/
another, nearby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888278165/
?
Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk
for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/
For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa
In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc
? ? ? Add whatever you love to the Yahoo!
India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-24 23:49:32 UTC
Permalink
I too went to college in Panjim, a little before Selma did... and the
same college too. While it is always nostalgic to live in the past,
what I remember of Panjim was that (i) it was as dirty as now, maybe a
bit more run-down in some areas (ii) streets leading to places like
Santa Cruz would get flooded, when we had to wade our scooters through
saline water thanks to unmaintained khazans (iii) there was far less
neon, the place was far more dimly lit and I wouldn't be able to get
my Panjim-by-nite pics then (iv) there was a red-light area (Tambddi
Maati), which everyone spoke of in hushed tones, and has now been
resettled to Chimbel (which everyone talks most patronisingly about)
(v) there was a broken bridge and we all used the ferry (about 100,000
commuting-trips each day, if I recall right) (vi) there were very few
jobs available, and our dream was to somehow become a typist in some
commercial firm .. my first 'job' in the 1980s got me a salary of Rs
100 and the next, Rs 300! Yeah, per month I mean.

Of course, there was no internet or no JoeGoaUK to record things that
went on, in those days. The only daily paper in the English-language
till 1983 (with the exception of a brief stint by the West Coast Times
from Margao) was solidly pro-government. So you never heard of
negative things.

Of course, there were fewer NRIs to crib about how bad things were,
comparing it to an imaginary (and negative-removed) past, or the
adopted affluent (and mostly former colonial powers) lands of their
current residence.

There was no middle class boom yet, so the parking problems were less.
It took a few years to buy a scooter (was it the Allwyn Pushpak?) in
the 1970s, a few years before Selma's time in college.

Goa was still a union territory, so the blatant floor-clossing we
started seeing just 3 years after statehood and the 40-seat assembly
was still some time away.

If we think the politicians suddenly changed their spots suddenly, I
would say we're mistaken. It's just that the lobbies grew stronger.

One crucial factor in this whole game has been the real-estate lobby,
which has since run amok and changed Panjim in many ways. (I remember
it was 'news' when the EDC building was replaced with "Panjim's
largest building", all of eight storeys tall, sometime in 1987 or
1988). But how many of us would refuse to sell land or buy flats from
this same lobby when we 'discover' a 'need' for the same?

I know of one expat, bless his soul, who would fulminate against the
land rackets and politicians in Goa, and then went on to sell a
significant parcel of land in a Panjim suburb to these very same
people whom he spoke so much about!

So much for living in the past! FN
Post by Carvalho
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's
photographs. 20 years ago, I did my college
in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho.
Every weekend I would go home and
return Monday morning in time for college.
As Panjim came into view, my hair
would literally stand of edge every
Monday without fail, this magnificent town
with its Church, the Bishop's palace,
the sumptious houses of its gentry in
Altinho, the merchant class in the Latin
quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time
at Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi,
then a short trip on a bike to Mira Mar
and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula.
All that is gone now. It's a faceless town,
caught within a sad embrace of
unappealing modernity and the
quivering collapse of its former glory.
Now, Panjim as I knew it lives only in
my memory.
--
Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490
Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Goa,1556: http://goa1556.goa-india.org
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-24 23:49:32 UTC
Permalink
I too went to college in Panjim, a little before Selma did... and the
same college too. While it is always nostalgic to live in the past,
what I remember of Panjim was that (i) it was as dirty as now, maybe a
bit more run-down in some areas (ii) streets leading to places like
Santa Cruz would get flooded, when we had to wade our scooters through
saline water thanks to unmaintained khazans (iii) there was far less
neon, the place was far more dimly lit and I wouldn't be able to get
my Panjim-by-nite pics then (iv) there was a red-light area (Tambddi
Maati), which everyone spoke of in hushed tones, and has now been
resettled to Chimbel (which everyone talks most patronisingly about)
(v) there was a broken bridge and we all used the ferry (about 100,000
commuting-trips each day, if I recall right) (vi) there were very few
jobs available, and our dream was to somehow become a typist in some
commercial firm .. my first 'job' in the 1980s got me a salary of Rs
100 and the next, Rs 300! Yeah, per month I mean.

Of course, there was no internet or no JoeGoaUK to record things that
went on, in those days. The only daily paper in the English-language
till 1983 (with the exception of a brief stint by the West Coast Times
from Margao) was solidly pro-government. So you never heard of
negative things.

Of course, there were fewer NRIs to crib about how bad things were,
comparing it to an imaginary (and negative-removed) past, or the
adopted affluent (and mostly former colonial powers) lands of their
current residence.

There was no middle class boom yet, so the parking problems were less.
It took a few years to buy a scooter (was it the Allwyn Pushpak?) in
the 1970s, a few years before Selma's time in college.

Goa was still a union territory, so the blatant floor-clossing we
started seeing just 3 years after statehood and the 40-seat assembly
was still some time away.

If we think the politicians suddenly changed their spots suddenly, I
would say we're mistaken. It's just that the lobbies grew stronger.

One crucial factor in this whole game has been the real-estate lobby,
which has since run amok and changed Panjim in many ways. (I remember
it was 'news' when the EDC building was replaced with "Panjim's
largest building", all of eight storeys tall, sometime in 1987 or
1988). But how many of us would refuse to sell land or buy flats from
this same lobby when we 'discover' a 'need' for the same?

I know of one expat, bless his soul, who would fulminate against the
land rackets and politicians in Goa, and then went on to sell a
significant parcel of land in a Panjim suburb to these very same
people whom he spoke so much about!

So much for living in the past! FN
Post by Carvalho
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's
photographs. 20 years ago, I did my college
in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho.
Every weekend I would go home and
return Monday morning in time for college.
As Panjim came into view, my hair
would literally stand of edge every
Monday without fail, this magnificent town
with its Church, the Bishop's palace,
the sumptious houses of its gentry in
Altinho, the merchant class in the Latin
quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time
at Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi,
then a short trip on a bike to Mira Mar
and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula.
All that is gone now. It's a faceless town,
caught within a sad embrace of
unappealing modernity and the
quivering collapse of its former glory.
Now, Panjim as I knew it lives only in
my memory.
--
Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490
Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Goa,1556: http://goa1556.goa-india.org
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-24 23:49:32 UTC
Permalink
I too went to college in Panjim, a little before Selma did... and the
same college too. While it is always nostalgic to live in the past,
what I remember of Panjim was that (i) it was as dirty as now, maybe a
bit more run-down in some areas (ii) streets leading to places like
Santa Cruz would get flooded, when we had to wade our scooters through
saline water thanks to unmaintained khazans (iii) there was far less
neon, the place was far more dimly lit and I wouldn't be able to get
my Panjim-by-nite pics then (iv) there was a red-light area (Tambddi
Maati), which everyone spoke of in hushed tones, and has now been
resettled to Chimbel (which everyone talks most patronisingly about)
(v) there was a broken bridge and we all used the ferry (about 100,000
commuting-trips each day, if I recall right) (vi) there were very few
jobs available, and our dream was to somehow become a typist in some
commercial firm .. my first 'job' in the 1980s got me a salary of Rs
100 and the next, Rs 300! Yeah, per month I mean.

Of course, there was no internet or no JoeGoaUK to record things that
went on, in those days. The only daily paper in the English-language
till 1983 (with the exception of a brief stint by the West Coast Times
from Margao) was solidly pro-government. So you never heard of
negative things.

Of course, there were fewer NRIs to crib about how bad things were,
comparing it to an imaginary (and negative-removed) past, or the
adopted affluent (and mostly former colonial powers) lands of their
current residence.

There was no middle class boom yet, so the parking problems were less.
It took a few years to buy a scooter (was it the Allwyn Pushpak?) in
the 1970s, a few years before Selma's time in college.

Goa was still a union territory, so the blatant floor-clossing we
started seeing just 3 years after statehood and the 40-seat assembly
was still some time away.

If we think the politicians suddenly changed their spots suddenly, I
would say we're mistaken. It's just that the lobbies grew stronger.

One crucial factor in this whole game has been the real-estate lobby,
which has since run amok and changed Panjim in many ways. (I remember
it was 'news' when the EDC building was replaced with "Panjim's
largest building", all of eight storeys tall, sometime in 1987 or
1988). But how many of us would refuse to sell land or buy flats from
this same lobby when we 'discover' a 'need' for the same?

I know of one expat, bless his soul, who would fulminate against the
land rackets and politicians in Goa, and then went on to sell a
significant parcel of land in a Panjim suburb to these very same
people whom he spoke so much about!

So much for living in the past! FN
Post by Carvalho
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's
photographs. 20 years ago, I did my college
in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho.
Every weekend I would go home and
return Monday morning in time for college.
As Panjim came into view, my hair
would literally stand of edge every
Monday without fail, this magnificent town
with its Church, the Bishop's palace,
the sumptious houses of its gentry in
Altinho, the merchant class in the Latin
quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time
at Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi,
then a short trip on a bike to Mira Mar
and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula.
All that is gone now. It's a faceless town,
caught within a sad embrace of
unappealing modernity and the
quivering collapse of its former glory.
Now, Panjim as I knew it lives only in
my memory.
--
Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490
Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Goa,1556: http://goa1556.goa-india.org
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-24 23:49:32 UTC
Permalink
I too went to college in Panjim, a little before Selma did... and the
same college too. While it is always nostalgic to live in the past,
what I remember of Panjim was that (i) it was as dirty as now, maybe a
bit more run-down in some areas (ii) streets leading to places like
Santa Cruz would get flooded, when we had to wade our scooters through
saline water thanks to unmaintained khazans (iii) there was far less
neon, the place was far more dimly lit and I wouldn't be able to get
my Panjim-by-nite pics then (iv) there was a red-light area (Tambddi
Maati), which everyone spoke of in hushed tones, and has now been
resettled to Chimbel (which everyone talks most patronisingly about)
(v) there was a broken bridge and we all used the ferry (about 100,000
commuting-trips each day, if I recall right) (vi) there were very few
jobs available, and our dream was to somehow become a typist in some
commercial firm .. my first 'job' in the 1980s got me a salary of Rs
100 and the next, Rs 300! Yeah, per month I mean.

Of course, there was no internet or no JoeGoaUK to record things that
went on, in those days. The only daily paper in the English-language
till 1983 (with the exception of a brief stint by the West Coast Times
from Margao) was solidly pro-government. So you never heard of
negative things.

Of course, there were fewer NRIs to crib about how bad things were,
comparing it to an imaginary (and negative-removed) past, or the
adopted affluent (and mostly former colonial powers) lands of their
current residence.

There was no middle class boom yet, so the parking problems were less.
It took a few years to buy a scooter (was it the Allwyn Pushpak?) in
the 1970s, a few years before Selma's time in college.

Goa was still a union territory, so the blatant floor-clossing we
started seeing just 3 years after statehood and the 40-seat assembly
was still some time away.

If we think the politicians suddenly changed their spots suddenly, I
would say we're mistaken. It's just that the lobbies grew stronger.

One crucial factor in this whole game has been the real-estate lobby,
which has since run amok and changed Panjim in many ways. (I remember
it was 'news' when the EDC building was replaced with "Panjim's
largest building", all of eight storeys tall, sometime in 1987 or
1988). But how many of us would refuse to sell land or buy flats from
this same lobby when we 'discover' a 'need' for the same?

I know of one expat, bless his soul, who would fulminate against the
land rackets and politicians in Goa, and then went on to sell a
significant parcel of land in a Panjim suburb to these very same
people whom he spoke so much about!

So much for living in the past! FN
Post by Carvalho
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's
photographs. 20 years ago, I did my college
in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho.
Every weekend I would go home and
return Monday morning in time for college.
As Panjim came into view, my hair
would literally stand of edge every
Monday without fail, this magnificent town
with its Church, the Bishop's palace,
the sumptious houses of its gentry in
Altinho, the merchant class in the Latin
quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time
at Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi,
then a short trip on a bike to Mira Mar
and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula.
All that is gone now. It's a faceless town,
caught within a sad embrace of
unappealing modernity and the
quivering collapse of its former glory.
Now, Panjim as I knew it lives only in
my memory.
--
Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490
Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Goa,1556: http://goa1556.goa-india.org
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-24 23:49:32 UTC
Permalink
I too went to college in Panjim, a little before Selma did... and the
same college too. While it is always nostalgic to live in the past,
what I remember of Panjim was that (i) it was as dirty as now, maybe a
bit more run-down in some areas (ii) streets leading to places like
Santa Cruz would get flooded, when we had to wade our scooters through
saline water thanks to unmaintained khazans (iii) there was far less
neon, the place was far more dimly lit and I wouldn't be able to get
my Panjim-by-nite pics then (iv) there was a red-light area (Tambddi
Maati), which everyone spoke of in hushed tones, and has now been
resettled to Chimbel (which everyone talks most patronisingly about)
(v) there was a broken bridge and we all used the ferry (about 100,000
commuting-trips each day, if I recall right) (vi) there were very few
jobs available, and our dream was to somehow become a typist in some
commercial firm .. my first 'job' in the 1980s got me a salary of Rs
100 and the next, Rs 300! Yeah, per month I mean.

Of course, there was no internet or no JoeGoaUK to record things that
went on, in those days. The only daily paper in the English-language
till 1983 (with the exception of a brief stint by the West Coast Times
from Margao) was solidly pro-government. So you never heard of
negative things.

Of course, there were fewer NRIs to crib about how bad things were,
comparing it to an imaginary (and negative-removed) past, or the
adopted affluent (and mostly former colonial powers) lands of their
current residence.

There was no middle class boom yet, so the parking problems were less.
It took a few years to buy a scooter (was it the Allwyn Pushpak?) in
the 1970s, a few years before Selma's time in college.

Goa was still a union territory, so the blatant floor-clossing we
started seeing just 3 years after statehood and the 40-seat assembly
was still some time away.

If we think the politicians suddenly changed their spots suddenly, I
would say we're mistaken. It's just that the lobbies grew stronger.

One crucial factor in this whole game has been the real-estate lobby,
which has since run amok and changed Panjim in many ways. (I remember
it was 'news' when the EDC building was replaced with "Panjim's
largest building", all of eight storeys tall, sometime in 1987 or
1988). But how many of us would refuse to sell land or buy flats from
this same lobby when we 'discover' a 'need' for the same?

I know of one expat, bless his soul, who would fulminate against the
land rackets and politicians in Goa, and then went on to sell a
significant parcel of land in a Panjim suburb to these very same
people whom he spoke so much about!

So much for living in the past! FN
Post by Carvalho
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's
photographs. 20 years ago, I did my college
in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho.
Every weekend I would go home and
return Monday morning in time for college.
As Panjim came into view, my hair
would literally stand of edge every
Monday without fail, this magnificent town
with its Church, the Bishop's palace,
the sumptious houses of its gentry in
Altinho, the merchant class in the Latin
quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time
at Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi,
then a short trip on a bike to Mira Mar
and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula.
All that is gone now. It's a faceless town,
caught within a sad embrace of
unappealing modernity and the
quivering collapse of its former glory.
Now, Panjim as I knew it lives only in
my memory.
--
Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490
Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Goa,1556: http://goa1556.goa-india.org
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-24 23:49:32 UTC
Permalink
I too went to college in Panjim, a little before Selma did... and the
same college too. While it is always nostalgic to live in the past,
what I remember of Panjim was that (i) it was as dirty as now, maybe a
bit more run-down in some areas (ii) streets leading to places like
Santa Cruz would get flooded, when we had to wade our scooters through
saline water thanks to unmaintained khazans (iii) there was far less
neon, the place was far more dimly lit and I wouldn't be able to get
my Panjim-by-nite pics then (iv) there was a red-light area (Tambddi
Maati), which everyone spoke of in hushed tones, and has now been
resettled to Chimbel (which everyone talks most patronisingly about)
(v) there was a broken bridge and we all used the ferry (about 100,000
commuting-trips each day, if I recall right) (vi) there were very few
jobs available, and our dream was to somehow become a typist in some
commercial firm .. my first 'job' in the 1980s got me a salary of Rs
100 and the next, Rs 300! Yeah, per month I mean.

Of course, there was no internet or no JoeGoaUK to record things that
went on, in those days. The only daily paper in the English-language
till 1983 (with the exception of a brief stint by the West Coast Times
from Margao) was solidly pro-government. So you never heard of
negative things.

Of course, there were fewer NRIs to crib about how bad things were,
comparing it to an imaginary (and negative-removed) past, or the
adopted affluent (and mostly former colonial powers) lands of their
current residence.

There was no middle class boom yet, so the parking problems were less.
It took a few years to buy a scooter (was it the Allwyn Pushpak?) in
the 1970s, a few years before Selma's time in college.

Goa was still a union territory, so the blatant floor-clossing we
started seeing just 3 years after statehood and the 40-seat assembly
was still some time away.

If we think the politicians suddenly changed their spots suddenly, I
would say we're mistaken. It's just that the lobbies grew stronger.

One crucial factor in this whole game has been the real-estate lobby,
which has since run amok and changed Panjim in many ways. (I remember
it was 'news' when the EDC building was replaced with "Panjim's
largest building", all of eight storeys tall, sometime in 1987 or
1988). But how many of us would refuse to sell land or buy flats from
this same lobby when we 'discover' a 'need' for the same?

I know of one expat, bless his soul, who would fulminate against the
land rackets and politicians in Goa, and then went on to sell a
significant parcel of land in a Panjim suburb to these very same
people whom he spoke so much about!

So much for living in the past! FN
Post by Carvalho
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's
photographs. 20 years ago, I did my college
in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho.
Every weekend I would go home and
return Monday morning in time for college.
As Panjim came into view, my hair
would literally stand of edge every
Monday without fail, this magnificent town
with its Church, the Bishop's palace,
the sumptious houses of its gentry in
Altinho, the merchant class in the Latin
quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time
at Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi,
then a short trip on a bike to Mira Mar
and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula.
All that is gone now. It's a faceless town,
caught within a sad embrace of
unappealing modernity and the
quivering collapse of its former glory.
Now, Panjim as I knew it lives only in
my memory.
--
Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490
Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Goa,1556: http://goa1556.goa-india.org
Cecil Pinto
2009-10-25 05:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Selma Carvalho:
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's photographs. 20 years ago, I
did my college in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho. Every weekend
I would go home and return Monday morning in time for college. As
Panjim came into view, my hair would literally stand of edge every
Monday without fail, this magnificent town with its Church, the
Bishop's palace, the sumptious houses of its gentry in Altinho, the
merchant class in the Latin quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time at
Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi, then a short trip on a bike to
Mira Mar and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula. All that is gone now.
It's a faceless town, caught within a sad embrace of unappealing
modernity and the quivering collapse of its former glory. Now, Panjim
as I knew it lives only in my memory.

-------------



1) Nothing about Panjim that Selma described above has changed in the
last 20 years. It's current glory is even more appealing than its
'former glory' that I have seen from working and living in the city
for the last 25 years. Panjim continues to have a unique character,
envied by many cities worldwide, and definitely cannot be described as
a 'faceless town'.


2) Is the correct phrasing 'on the Altinho' or 'at Altinho'?

Cheers!

Cecil

=====
Carvalho
2009-10-25 10:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Dear Frederick,

First of all I resent the statement that NRIs are always grumbling and comparing Goa to the places they currently live in. This is a great fallacy and much local hubris for let me put it to you honestly, Goa cannot even in another 100 years compare to the sort of infrastructure, design and amenities that the cities NRIs live in offer. If we compare Goa to a London or California or Dubai, we would be suffering from some sort of permanent mental schism.

The problem with Goa is only this, the infrastructure has not expanded to accommodate a sudden influx of people, and the ways it has expanded has been indiscrimanant with scant regard for design nor asthetics. If one stands at the Kadamba bus station and views the chaos that ensues there for just 10 minutes, most people will know what I am talking about.

It's true that 20 years ago, we didn't have a lot of the things you say we didn't have. Personally I never felt anything wrong with tamdhi mathi being in St. Inez. Some of my best friends in college were regular visitors there. Imagine now, college-going boys will have to travel all the way to Chimbel. That itself is a deterioration in the services offered from the former Panjim.

But 20 years ago, neither did we see people defecating on the roads, steel and glass buildings in a town that should never have steel and glass (who gives the NOC for such asthetic murder), Campal was still beautiful, Mira Mar was a long lonely stretch, not a block of concrete, and true there wasn't a direct road leading from Mira Mar to Donna Paula, but that goodness for that.

All along the Mandovi were Goan-run business', one or two mom-n-pop type restaurants that would sell rechad badga and a glass of beer for a pittance. You could sit there mid-afternoon and just watch the people walk by.

Right at the end of the Donna Paula pier was just one Goan-run restaurant, selling possibly the best choritzo pao and rum and coke. I think he's still there, surrounded by a myriad unflattering vendors calling out to tourists. Behind those little bungalows was a cove, a tiny inlet, that allowed us to bath without gawking men.

Yes, yes, all the nostalgia of a NRI to you but maybe nostalgia is important to human beings. It tells us that something currently is not quite as it should be.
From: Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 6:49 PM
I too went to college in Panjim, a
little before Selma did... and the
same college too. While it is always nostalgic to live in
the past,
what I remember of Panjim was that
Sandeep Heble
2009-10-26 10:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Cecil,

I largely agree with you. I too feel that Selma?s comments are grossly
exaggerated.

Panjim was a beautiful city then and it continues to be a beautiful
city now. It was badly managed then and it continues to be badly
managed now, especially by the present CCP Council which stinks.

However, the facilities are much better now then they used to be in
those days and in that sense you are right when you say that Panjim
has only improved and has by no means deteriorated. Of course, Panjim
city really started taking shape during Manohar Parrikar?s tenure as
the Chief Minister and we must give the city MLA the due credit for
that.

If you can recollect, the Children?s Park was in such a pathetic
condition 20 years back, with little children hardly frequenting it.
Ditto with the city bus-stand which too was a big mess. For the cinema
buffs, watching a movie was nothing short of going through an Ordeal,
with theatres in an unhygienic condition, rats moving all around and
seats infected with bugs. The city lacked so many other facilities
too.

Today, the city can boast of having a World Class Multiplex, with at
least 5 to 6 ?Film Festivals? held every year, giving the city
residents plenty of scope for fun and entertainment, all year round.
The Children?s Park with its improved lawns, fountains, swings and
other play-stations too is in a much better shape than it used to be
earlier. We organize so many of our programmes and events there.

The Kala Academy too is much improved. The Park cum Garden in
Caranzalem has been beautifully developed. The city Bus-stand is much
better organized now; the Ambedkar Garden in its vicinity is another
place that has been wonderfully developed along with the ?Spring? at
Boca de Vaca. Then for the sportsmen, sports facilities are much
better, whether at the Indoor Stadium at Campal or the Oratory in Don
Bosco?s or the Gasper Dias at Miramar.

In brief, Panjim is more appealing today than it was in the past.

Having said that, the city Garden and the Campal Football stadium have
gone from bad to worse. But with a more responsive Government and a
more efficient and honest CCP, these can be put back to shape too.

Cheers,
Sandeep
Carvalho
2009-10-26 13:25:25 UTC
Permalink
From: Sandeep Heble <sandeepheble at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: goanet at goanet.org
Date: Monday, October 26, 2009, 5:43 AM
Cecil,
I largely agree with you. I too feel that Selma?s
comments are grossly
exaggerated.
-------------------------------------------
Dear Sandeep,
I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20 years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That ofcourse is my personal opinion. Maybe I have a certain yardstick by which I am measuring what a township should be so why in your books it becomes an exaggeration I have no idea.

To be honest I am getting a bit tired and fed-up of internet forums. They seem to be marked by a great desire to prove one's own point at the expense of the other poster.

The moment people come onto internet forums they seem to immediately have their ears surgically removed. Any need to listen to another opinion, genuinely listen, without casting some bizarre agenda, calling it a lie, perversion, distortion, exaggeration seems to become an almost impossibility.

Then ofcourse there is the need to have the last word. This some have turned into an Olympic sport. Because of this I have long stopped reading 90% of the posts on Goanet.

Let's not forget the "where your proofers?" These people generally will not offer any substantive proof themselves but will generally try to demean others by throwing that question into the works which on the face of it sounds intelligent but is actually borne out of gross stupidity.

Best of all, Goan internet forums atleast at the place where NRI bashing becomes an acceptable pastime, cheered on by some hapless, toothless, men who might have found a cybercafe right next to the village tinto. What do NRIs know about Goa? They live else, let's discredit everything they have to say because they aren't earning in rupees. NEver mind that they are Goans who might have spent considerable time periods in Goa, or that they might be discerning individuals with some insight to offer. Nope Sir. If they live beyond Karwar, they have no right to say anything about Goa.

Well, to be honest, I think I've had my fill for a while.

Sorry all this ended up on your post Sandeep. It is not intended for you.

Best,
selma
Sandeep Heble
2009-10-26 18:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Selma Carvalho wrote:
"I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20
years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of
Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That of course is my
personal opinion. Maybe I have a certain yardstick by which I am
measuring what a township should be so why in your books it becomes an
exaggeration I have no idea."

-----------------------------

Dear Selma,

A few things you wrote did make a lot of sense, but words like
"faceless" and "collapse of former glory" were a bit over the top, the
reasons cited by me in my previous post. Having been born and brought
up in this city and having lived, seen, and experienced the city in
all its glory 20 years back and now, there is just no way I can be
with you on this one. The city is still very charming and appealing.
But yes, you are entitled to your opinion and we to ours.

An opinion is good or bad, perfect or flawed based on its content.
Trying to discredit your opinions on the basis of your NRI status or
your Religion or other personal factors is nothing but intellectual
bankruptcy (borrowing VG?s recent words). I am with you on this one.

regards,
Sandeep
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-26 22:44:34 UTC
Permalink
The one place that definitely seems worse than what it was is Mapusa.
Someone online initiative should perhaps hold a competition for the
'dirtiest' and most unkempt building there... with photos included
too!

In other places, there is a bit of a visible tradeoff at least. Even
the coastal belt (specially in the ABC-Anjuna-Baga-Calangute/Candolim
areas, in varying degrees, though more at the C-end) has lost its
serenity, water purity, scenic skyline and open spaces but has gained
in terms of becoming a more 'happening' if concretised place.

Social change in the area has also meant that the old, hierarchical
obviously unjust and bhadkar-dominated order has taken a beating, and
the former subalterns have got a bigger stake in the system. Such
issues will obviously not be discussed in cyberspace too often,
because the debates tend to be one-sided.

A lot more money has entered the area, though not without a price.

In Mapusa's case, I can't see too many redeeming features. The market
(a gift from the departing colonial Portuguese circa 1950) is in a
mess. The whole city is more shabbier than it was 20 years ago.

The bus-stand's repeated shifting is a good indicator of the total
lack of foresight in planning. Couldn't the projected growth estimates
be calculated more effectively to start with?

Shops are built one on top of the other at the ring alongside the
market; this makes for terrible crowds, and lousy aesthetics, but
perhaps yields good money for those taking such decisions. (If not
mistaken, the role of the Narvekar brothers has come in for scrutiny
on this score.)

Politicians like Ramakant Khalap have warned about the attempts to
convert the fields around Mapusa into real-estate zones, and make a
killing. You can already see that happening.

The city-fathers have done well for themselves (and their real estate
dealings), the place has paid the price. Comunidade politics are
apparently manipulated by bringing in 'guest' gaonkars all the way
from beyond Goa's borders, to be wined and dined and made to vote in
directions that support the status quo and lobbies in control.

Look at the ugly buildings threatening to fall over your heads even as
you enter Mapusa.

While former CM and Panjim MLA Manohar Parrikar has come in for praise
in this thread, I have long felt that such praise for selected
politicians is just an overactive propaganda machine, willing to seize
any opportunity to build up undue reputations. What happens to Panjim
seems more like a policy of just seizing the resources of one area of
Goa and boosting the fortunes of another (Panjim, in this case).

One wonders: if Parrikar was all that he was made out to be, why did
he not contest elections from Mapusa itself (his hometown,
incidentally) and make a miracle of that place? Or does he too depend
on the much-derided "votebanks"? FN
Post by Sandeep Heble
"I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20
years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of
Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That of course is my
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-26 22:44:34 UTC
Permalink
The one place that definitely seems worse than what it was is Mapusa.
Someone online initiative should perhaps hold a competition for the
'dirtiest' and most unkempt building there... with photos included
too!

In other places, there is a bit of a visible tradeoff at least. Even
the coastal belt (specially in the ABC-Anjuna-Baga-Calangute/Candolim
areas, in varying degrees, though more at the C-end) has lost its
serenity, water purity, scenic skyline and open spaces but has gained
in terms of becoming a more 'happening' if concretised place.

Social change in the area has also meant that the old, hierarchical
obviously unjust and bhadkar-dominated order has taken a beating, and
the former subalterns have got a bigger stake in the system. Such
issues will obviously not be discussed in cyberspace too often,
because the debates tend to be one-sided.

A lot more money has entered the area, though not without a price.

In Mapusa's case, I can't see too many redeeming features. The market
(a gift from the departing colonial Portuguese circa 1950) is in a
mess. The whole city is more shabbier than it was 20 years ago.

The bus-stand's repeated shifting is a good indicator of the total
lack of foresight in planning. Couldn't the projected growth estimates
be calculated more effectively to start with?

Shops are built one on top of the other at the ring alongside the
market; this makes for terrible crowds, and lousy aesthetics, but
perhaps yields good money for those taking such decisions. (If not
mistaken, the role of the Narvekar brothers has come in for scrutiny
on this score.)

Politicians like Ramakant Khalap have warned about the attempts to
convert the fields around Mapusa into real-estate zones, and make a
killing. You can already see that happening.

The city-fathers have done well for themselves (and their real estate
dealings), the place has paid the price. Comunidade politics are
apparently manipulated by bringing in 'guest' gaonkars all the way
from beyond Goa's borders, to be wined and dined and made to vote in
directions that support the status quo and lobbies in control.

Look at the ugly buildings threatening to fall over your heads even as
you enter Mapusa.

While former CM and Panjim MLA Manohar Parrikar has come in for praise
in this thread, I have long felt that such praise for selected
politicians is just an overactive propaganda machine, willing to seize
any opportunity to build up undue reputations. What happens to Panjim
seems more like a policy of just seizing the resources of one area of
Goa and boosting the fortunes of another (Panjim, in this case).

One wonders: if Parrikar was all that he was made out to be, why did
he not contest elections from Mapusa itself (his hometown,
incidentally) and make a miracle of that place? Or does he too depend
on the much-derided "votebanks"? FN
Post by Sandeep Heble
"I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20
years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of
Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That of course is my
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-26 22:44:34 UTC
Permalink
The one place that definitely seems worse than what it was is Mapusa.
Someone online initiative should perhaps hold a competition for the
'dirtiest' and most unkempt building there... with photos included
too!

In other places, there is a bit of a visible tradeoff at least. Even
the coastal belt (specially in the ABC-Anjuna-Baga-Calangute/Candolim
areas, in varying degrees, though more at the C-end) has lost its
serenity, water purity, scenic skyline and open spaces but has gained
in terms of becoming a more 'happening' if concretised place.

Social change in the area has also meant that the old, hierarchical
obviously unjust and bhadkar-dominated order has taken a beating, and
the former subalterns have got a bigger stake in the system. Such
issues will obviously not be discussed in cyberspace too often,
because the debates tend to be one-sided.

A lot more money has entered the area, though not without a price.

In Mapusa's case, I can't see too many redeeming features. The market
(a gift from the departing colonial Portuguese circa 1950) is in a
mess. The whole city is more shabbier than it was 20 years ago.

The bus-stand's repeated shifting is a good indicator of the total
lack of foresight in planning. Couldn't the projected growth estimates
be calculated more effectively to start with?

Shops are built one on top of the other at the ring alongside the
market; this makes for terrible crowds, and lousy aesthetics, but
perhaps yields good money for those taking such decisions. (If not
mistaken, the role of the Narvekar brothers has come in for scrutiny
on this score.)

Politicians like Ramakant Khalap have warned about the attempts to
convert the fields around Mapusa into real-estate zones, and make a
killing. You can already see that happening.

The city-fathers have done well for themselves (and their real estate
dealings), the place has paid the price. Comunidade politics are
apparently manipulated by bringing in 'guest' gaonkars all the way
from beyond Goa's borders, to be wined and dined and made to vote in
directions that support the status quo and lobbies in control.

Look at the ugly buildings threatening to fall over your heads even as
you enter Mapusa.

While former CM and Panjim MLA Manohar Parrikar has come in for praise
in this thread, I have long felt that such praise for selected
politicians is just an overactive propaganda machine, willing to seize
any opportunity to build up undue reputations. What happens to Panjim
seems more like a policy of just seizing the resources of one area of
Goa and boosting the fortunes of another (Panjim, in this case).

One wonders: if Parrikar was all that he was made out to be, why did
he not contest elections from Mapusa itself (his hometown,
incidentally) and make a miracle of that place? Or does he too depend
on the much-derided "votebanks"? FN
Post by Sandeep Heble
"I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20
years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of
Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That of course is my
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-26 22:44:34 UTC
Permalink
The one place that definitely seems worse than what it was is Mapusa.
Someone online initiative should perhaps hold a competition for the
'dirtiest' and most unkempt building there... with photos included
too!

In other places, there is a bit of a visible tradeoff at least. Even
the coastal belt (specially in the ABC-Anjuna-Baga-Calangute/Candolim
areas, in varying degrees, though more at the C-end) has lost its
serenity, water purity, scenic skyline and open spaces but has gained
in terms of becoming a more 'happening' if concretised place.

Social change in the area has also meant that the old, hierarchical
obviously unjust and bhadkar-dominated order has taken a beating, and
the former subalterns have got a bigger stake in the system. Such
issues will obviously not be discussed in cyberspace too often,
because the debates tend to be one-sided.

A lot more money has entered the area, though not without a price.

In Mapusa's case, I can't see too many redeeming features. The market
(a gift from the departing colonial Portuguese circa 1950) is in a
mess. The whole city is more shabbier than it was 20 years ago.

The bus-stand's repeated shifting is a good indicator of the total
lack of foresight in planning. Couldn't the projected growth estimates
be calculated more effectively to start with?

Shops are built one on top of the other at the ring alongside the
market; this makes for terrible crowds, and lousy aesthetics, but
perhaps yields good money for those taking such decisions. (If not
mistaken, the role of the Narvekar brothers has come in for scrutiny
on this score.)

Politicians like Ramakant Khalap have warned about the attempts to
convert the fields around Mapusa into real-estate zones, and make a
killing. You can already see that happening.

The city-fathers have done well for themselves (and their real estate
dealings), the place has paid the price. Comunidade politics are
apparently manipulated by bringing in 'guest' gaonkars all the way
from beyond Goa's borders, to be wined and dined and made to vote in
directions that support the status quo and lobbies in control.

Look at the ugly buildings threatening to fall over your heads even as
you enter Mapusa.

While former CM and Panjim MLA Manohar Parrikar has come in for praise
in this thread, I have long felt that such praise for selected
politicians is just an overactive propaganda machine, willing to seize
any opportunity to build up undue reputations. What happens to Panjim
seems more like a policy of just seizing the resources of one area of
Goa and boosting the fortunes of another (Panjim, in this case).

One wonders: if Parrikar was all that he was made out to be, why did
he not contest elections from Mapusa itself (his hometown,
incidentally) and make a miracle of that place? Or does he too depend
on the much-derided "votebanks"? FN
Post by Sandeep Heble
"I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20
years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of
Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That of course is my
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-26 22:44:34 UTC
Permalink
The one place that definitely seems worse than what it was is Mapusa.
Someone online initiative should perhaps hold a competition for the
'dirtiest' and most unkempt building there... with photos included
too!

In other places, there is a bit of a visible tradeoff at least. Even
the coastal belt (specially in the ABC-Anjuna-Baga-Calangute/Candolim
areas, in varying degrees, though more at the C-end) has lost its
serenity, water purity, scenic skyline and open spaces but has gained
in terms of becoming a more 'happening' if concretised place.

Social change in the area has also meant that the old, hierarchical
obviously unjust and bhadkar-dominated order has taken a beating, and
the former subalterns have got a bigger stake in the system. Such
issues will obviously not be discussed in cyberspace too often,
because the debates tend to be one-sided.

A lot more money has entered the area, though not without a price.

In Mapusa's case, I can't see too many redeeming features. The market
(a gift from the departing colonial Portuguese circa 1950) is in a
mess. The whole city is more shabbier than it was 20 years ago.

The bus-stand's repeated shifting is a good indicator of the total
lack of foresight in planning. Couldn't the projected growth estimates
be calculated more effectively to start with?

Shops are built one on top of the other at the ring alongside the
market; this makes for terrible crowds, and lousy aesthetics, but
perhaps yields good money for those taking such decisions. (If not
mistaken, the role of the Narvekar brothers has come in for scrutiny
on this score.)

Politicians like Ramakant Khalap have warned about the attempts to
convert the fields around Mapusa into real-estate zones, and make a
killing. You can already see that happening.

The city-fathers have done well for themselves (and their real estate
dealings), the place has paid the price. Comunidade politics are
apparently manipulated by bringing in 'guest' gaonkars all the way
from beyond Goa's borders, to be wined and dined and made to vote in
directions that support the status quo and lobbies in control.

Look at the ugly buildings threatening to fall over your heads even as
you enter Mapusa.

While former CM and Panjim MLA Manohar Parrikar has come in for praise
in this thread, I have long felt that such praise for selected
politicians is just an overactive propaganda machine, willing to seize
any opportunity to build up undue reputations. What happens to Panjim
seems more like a policy of just seizing the resources of one area of
Goa and boosting the fortunes of another (Panjim, in this case).

One wonders: if Parrikar was all that he was made out to be, why did
he not contest elections from Mapusa itself (his hometown,
incidentally) and make a miracle of that place? Or does he too depend
on the much-derided "votebanks"? FN
Post by Sandeep Heble
"I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20
years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of
Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That of course is my
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-26 22:44:34 UTC
Permalink
The one place that definitely seems worse than what it was is Mapusa.
Someone online initiative should perhaps hold a competition for the
'dirtiest' and most unkempt building there... with photos included
too!

In other places, there is a bit of a visible tradeoff at least. Even
the coastal belt (specially in the ABC-Anjuna-Baga-Calangute/Candolim
areas, in varying degrees, though more at the C-end) has lost its
serenity, water purity, scenic skyline and open spaces but has gained
in terms of becoming a more 'happening' if concretised place.

Social change in the area has also meant that the old, hierarchical
obviously unjust and bhadkar-dominated order has taken a beating, and
the former subalterns have got a bigger stake in the system. Such
issues will obviously not be discussed in cyberspace too often,
because the debates tend to be one-sided.

A lot more money has entered the area, though not without a price.

In Mapusa's case, I can't see too many redeeming features. The market
(a gift from the departing colonial Portuguese circa 1950) is in a
mess. The whole city is more shabbier than it was 20 years ago.

The bus-stand's repeated shifting is a good indicator of the total
lack of foresight in planning. Couldn't the projected growth estimates
be calculated more effectively to start with?

Shops are built one on top of the other at the ring alongside the
market; this makes for terrible crowds, and lousy aesthetics, but
perhaps yields good money for those taking such decisions. (If not
mistaken, the role of the Narvekar brothers has come in for scrutiny
on this score.)

Politicians like Ramakant Khalap have warned about the attempts to
convert the fields around Mapusa into real-estate zones, and make a
killing. You can already see that happening.

The city-fathers have done well for themselves (and their real estate
dealings), the place has paid the price. Comunidade politics are
apparently manipulated by bringing in 'guest' gaonkars all the way
from beyond Goa's borders, to be wined and dined and made to vote in
directions that support the status quo and lobbies in control.

Look at the ugly buildings threatening to fall over your heads even as
you enter Mapusa.

While former CM and Panjim MLA Manohar Parrikar has come in for praise
in this thread, I have long felt that such praise for selected
politicians is just an overactive propaganda machine, willing to seize
any opportunity to build up undue reputations. What happens to Panjim
seems more like a policy of just seizing the resources of one area of
Goa and boosting the fortunes of another (Panjim, in this case).

One wonders: if Parrikar was all that he was made out to be, why did
he not contest elections from Mapusa itself (his hometown,
incidentally) and make a miracle of that place? Or does he too depend
on the much-derided "votebanks"? FN
Post by Sandeep Heble
"I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20
years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of
Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That of course is my
Mario Goveia
2009-10-26 15:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:36:51 +0530
From: Cecil Pinto <cecilpinto at gmail.com>

Is the correct phrasing 'on the Altinho' or 'at Altinho'?

Mario observes:

Cecil,

Residents of Altinho enjoy a sort of "lofty" status, if you know what I mean, with pun intended:-))

Its a crying shame that some shameless government bureaucrat decided to build the ugliest building in all of Goa at its peak, the PWD Office.
From Altinho the Panjim aristocracy that Selma belongs to can look down on the unwashed proletariat in the teeming streets below:-))
?
I loved Panjim when the Portuguese occupiers ran the place with an iron fist, and I love Panjim now that I am a part-time Ponjekar.? It was an exotic colonial backwater then; it is vibrant and charming still, more so than most of India.

And, scr.,? ...er, to heck with, those who disagree with me:-))

I think most Goanetters have no clue what the rest of India has become.

However, all it will take to clean up Panjim again is electing the right administration.

Whatever one thought of Manohar Parrikar back in the early 2000s, he had pretty much succeeded in making it "Panjim Shining".? The place was veritably spotless in those days.

Now, even Babush has to look down from the elegant Monserrate Palace II on kachra strewn along Miramar beach.
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-27 12:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Fascism does have its advantages. (I've seen Hitler's Olympiastadion
in Berlin -- neat, clean, huge and lifeless.) So does colonialism.
Ditto for the corporatism of Salazar, and the Estado Novo. I'm sure
even Mario's ultimate bete rouge Stalin could achieve that kind of
growth and 'order' with his iron-fist policies.

But do we want cleanliness and tranquility without social justice? How
many would prefer to turn the clock back?

If you're living here, it's another reality. It's far less complicated
to create fantasy based on memories of the 'good ole days'. FN
Post by Mario Goveia
I loved Panjim when the Portuguese occupiers ran
the place with an iron fist, and I love Panjim now that
I am a part-time Ponjekar.? It was an exotic
colonial backwater then; it is vibrant and charming
still, more so than most of India.
--
Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490
Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Books from Goa: http://tiny.cc/goabooks
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-27 12:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Fascism does have its advantages. (I've seen Hitler's Olympiastadion
in Berlin -- neat, clean, huge and lifeless.) So does colonialism.
Ditto for the corporatism of Salazar, and the Estado Novo. I'm sure
even Mario's ultimate bete rouge Stalin could achieve that kind of
growth and 'order' with his iron-fist policies.

But do we want cleanliness and tranquility without social justice? How
many would prefer to turn the clock back?

If you're living here, it's another reality. It's far less complicated
to create fantasy based on memories of the 'good ole days'. FN
Post by Mario Goveia
I loved Panjim when the Portuguese occupiers ran
the place with an iron fist, and I love Panjim now that
I am a part-time Ponjekar.? It was an exotic
colonial backwater then; it is vibrant and charming
still, more so than most of India.
--
Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490
Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Books from Goa: http://tiny.cc/goabooks
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-27 12:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Fascism does have its advantages. (I've seen Hitler's Olympiastadion
in Berlin -- neat, clean, huge and lifeless.) So does colonialism.
Ditto for the corporatism of Salazar, and the Estado Novo. I'm sure
even Mario's ultimate bete rouge Stalin could achieve that kind of
growth and 'order' with his iron-fist policies.

But do we want cleanliness and tranquility without social justice? How
many would prefer to turn the clock back?

If you're living here, it's another reality. It's far less complicated
to create fantasy based on memories of the 'good ole days'. FN
Post by Mario Goveia
I loved Panjim when the Portuguese occupiers ran
the place with an iron fist, and I love Panjim now that
I am a part-time Ponjekar.? It was an exotic
colonial backwater then; it is vibrant and charming
still, more so than most of India.
--
Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490
Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Books from Goa: http://tiny.cc/goabooks
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-27 12:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Fascism does have its advantages. (I've seen Hitler's Olympiastadion
in Berlin -- neat, clean, huge and lifeless.) So does colonialism.
Ditto for the corporatism of Salazar, and the Estado Novo. I'm sure
even Mario's ultimate bete rouge Stalin could achieve that kind of
growth and 'order' with his iron-fist policies.

But do we want cleanliness and tranquility without social justice? How
many would prefer to turn the clock back?

If you're living here, it's another reality. It's far less complicated
to create fantasy based on memories of the 'good ole days'. FN
Post by Mario Goveia
I loved Panjim when the Portuguese occupiers ran
the place with an iron fist, and I love Panjim now that
I am a part-time Ponjekar.? It was an exotic
colonial backwater then; it is vibrant and charming
still, more so than most of India.
--
Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490
Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Books from Goa: http://tiny.cc/goabooks
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-27 12:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Fascism does have its advantages. (I've seen Hitler's Olympiastadion
in Berlin -- neat, clean, huge and lifeless.) So does colonialism.
Ditto for the corporatism of Salazar, and the Estado Novo. I'm sure
even Mario's ultimate bete rouge Stalin could achieve that kind of
growth and 'order' with his iron-fist policies.

But do we want cleanliness and tranquility without social justice? How
many would prefer to turn the clock back?

If you're living here, it's another reality. It's far less complicated
to create fantasy based on memories of the 'good ole days'. FN
Post by Mario Goveia
I loved Panjim when the Portuguese occupiers ran
the place with an iron fist, and I love Panjim now that
I am a part-time Ponjekar.? It was an exotic
colonial backwater then; it is vibrant and charming
still, more so than most of India.
--
Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490
Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Books from Goa: http://tiny.cc/goabooks
Frederick Noronha
2009-10-27 12:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Fascism does have its advantages. (I've seen Hitler's Olympiastadion
in Berlin -- neat, clean, huge and lifeless.) So does colonialism.
Ditto for the corporatism of Salazar, and the Estado Novo. I'm sure
even Mario's ultimate bete rouge Stalin could achieve that kind of
growth and 'order' with his iron-fist policies.

But do we want cleanliness and tranquility without social justice? How
many would prefer to turn the clock back?

If you're living here, it's another reality. It's far less complicated
to create fantasy based on memories of the 'good ole days'. FN
Post by Mario Goveia
I loved Panjim when the Portuguese occupiers ran
the place with an iron fist, and I love Panjim now that
I am a part-time Ponjekar.? It was an exotic
colonial backwater then; it is vibrant and charming
still, more so than most of India.
--
Frederick Noronha :: +91-832-2409490
Writing, editing, alt.publishing, photography, journalism
Books from Goa: http://tiny.cc/goabooks
Carvalho
2009-10-27 09:16:10 UTC
Permalink
From Altinho the Panjim aristocracy that Selma belongs
to can look down on the unwashed proletariat in the teeming
streets below:-))
?
----------------------------------------------
Dear Mario,

I don't belong to the Panjim aristocracy. I lived as a boarder with the nuns of the French order, way up on the Altinho. They spoke French and wore dresses. In anycase, they grew fed up with me wearing skirts that ended way above my knees, partying too and skipping college and threw me out after two years of being there. So I moved in with another set of nuns on 18th June Road, who couldn't care less what I wore. Their digs stunk to high heaven and were nothing as plush as the digs on Altinho but I enjoyed the company of my room-mates nonetheless. That was my last year of college so it wasn't that bad. The Bishop would come every once a week to say Mass and sometimes I'd do the reading, something which I still enjoy doing tremendously.

On the Altinho were the two Menezes houses, which are still there today. We were good friends with their boys. The eldest of their clan, and trust me they are a clan, was almost the first boy to get his red Maruti car and he'd take us around town on rides. Ofcourse I didn't hang out with them as much as some of the other girls in my group. No, they were far too sedate for me.

I had my own gang of friends with Enfeild motorbikes, who chained smoked, drunk themselves into oblivion and went to acid rock concerts at Farmagudi. Those were the boys I hung out with. They did extremely well for themselves later in life. Proof positive that academic success accounts for nothing in life.

Somewhere in there is a good book :-))

I know some of them lurk on Goanet, so seriously guys we must plan a reunion sometime.

Best,
selma
JoeGoaUk
2009-10-24 19:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
?
Shitting Zone
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039629749/sizes/l/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375678/
?
?
Sleeping zone
what's sleeping zone also mean?
It also mean shitting zone, pissing zone, spitting zone etc etc
As everything done around same place.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040378106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751572/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040377728/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039626797/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4019372324/
all benches taken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4037301762/
Traffic cop sleeping?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751910/
?
Fresh batch has just arrived?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033752646/
?
graveyard on the pavements?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375008/
?
city Kiosk owners are back?
Near Cine national
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462325/
?
?
Dangerous Parking near Panjim Church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932546271/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3933328004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932545311/
?
?
At the Campal art Park entrance
'Goaway you visitors, something sinister happening here'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3929814827/
?
?
One lane of DB Road reserved for parking?
For the customers of the new restaurant owned by dy. Mayor
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3916973472/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3912764841/
related
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3995720726/
?
?
dumping Zone at KTC Bus Stand
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888279159/
another, nearby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888278165/
?


Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk

for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/

For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa

In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc


Add whatever you love to the Yahoo! India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
Carvalho
2009-10-24 22:14:02 UTC
Permalink
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's photographs. 20 years ago, I did my college in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho. Every weekend I would go home and return Monday morning in time for college. As Panjim came into view, my hair would literally stand of edge every Monday without fail, this magnificent town with its Church, the Bishop's palace, the sumptious houses of its gentry in Altinho, the merchant class in the Latin quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time at Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi, then a short trip on a bike to Mira Mar and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula. All that is gone now. It's a faceless town, caught within a sad embrace of unappealing modernity and the quivering collapse of its former glory. Now, Panjim as I knew it lives only in my memory.

best,
selma
From: JoeGoaUk <joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: goanet at goanet.org
Cc: "Parrikar Manohar bjp" <parrikar at bjpgoa.in>, commissioner at ccpgoa.com, "New Herald Id" <editor at herald-goa.com>, "goan NRI" <goan-nri at yahoogroups.co.in>, "Parrikar" <manoharparrikar at yahoo.co.in>, "surendra Furtado ccp" <alcinpac at sancharnet.in>, "clinton vaz" <klintvaz at gmail.com>, gteditor at gmail.com
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 2:01 PM
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim
Pics
?
Shitting Zone
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039629749/sizes/l/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375678/
?
?
Sleeping zone
what's sleeping zone also mean?
It also mean shitting zone, pissing zone, spitting zone etc
etc
As everything done around same place.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040378106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751572/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040377728/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039626797/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4019372324/
all benches taken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4037301762/
Traffic cop sleeping?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751910/
?
Fresh batch has just arrived?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033752646/
?
graveyard on the pavements?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375008/
?
city Kiosk owners are back?
Near Cine national
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462325/
?
?
Dangerous Parking near Panjim Church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932546271/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3933328004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932545311/
?
?
At the Campal art Park entrance
'Goaway you visitors, something sinister happening here'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3929814827/
?
?
One lane of DB Road reserved for parking?
For the customers of the new restaurant owned by dy. Mayor
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3916973472/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3912764841/
related
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3995720726/
?
?
dumping Zone at KTC Bus Stand
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888279159/
another, nearby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888278165/
?
Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk
for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/
For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa
In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc
? ? ? Add whatever you love to the Yahoo!
India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
Cecil Pinto
2009-10-25 05:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Selma Carvalho:
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's photographs. 20 years ago, I
did my college in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho. Every weekend
I would go home and return Monday morning in time for college. As
Panjim came into view, my hair would literally stand of edge every
Monday without fail, this magnificent town with its Church, the
Bishop's palace, the sumptious houses of its gentry in Altinho, the
merchant class in the Latin quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time at
Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi, then a short trip on a bike to
Mira Mar and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula. All that is gone now.
It's a faceless town, caught within a sad embrace of unappealing
modernity and the quivering collapse of its former glory. Now, Panjim
as I knew it lives only in my memory.

-------------



1) Nothing about Panjim that Selma described above has changed in the
last 20 years. It's current glory is even more appealing than its
'former glory' that I have seen from working and living in the city
for the last 25 years. Panjim continues to have a unique character,
envied by many cities worldwide, and definitely cannot be described as
a 'faceless town'.


2) Is the correct phrasing 'on the Altinho' or 'at Altinho'?

Cheers!

Cecil

=====
Carvalho
2009-10-25 10:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Dear Frederick,

First of all I resent the statement that NRIs are always grumbling and comparing Goa to the places they currently live in. This is a great fallacy and much local hubris for let me put it to you honestly, Goa cannot even in another 100 years compare to the sort of infrastructure, design and amenities that the cities NRIs live in offer. If we compare Goa to a London or California or Dubai, we would be suffering from some sort of permanent mental schism.

The problem with Goa is only this, the infrastructure has not expanded to accommodate a sudden influx of people, and the ways it has expanded has been indiscrimanant with scant regard for design nor asthetics. If one stands at the Kadamba bus station and views the chaos that ensues there for just 10 minutes, most people will know what I am talking about.

It's true that 20 years ago, we didn't have a lot of the things you say we didn't have. Personally I never felt anything wrong with tamdhi mathi being in St. Inez. Some of my best friends in college were regular visitors there. Imagine now, college-going boys will have to travel all the way to Chimbel. That itself is a deterioration in the services offered from the former Panjim.

But 20 years ago, neither did we see people defecating on the roads, steel and glass buildings in a town that should never have steel and glass (who gives the NOC for such asthetic murder), Campal was still beautiful, Mira Mar was a long lonely stretch, not a block of concrete, and true there wasn't a direct road leading from Mira Mar to Donna Paula, but that goodness for that.

All along the Mandovi were Goan-run business', one or two mom-n-pop type restaurants that would sell rechad badga and a glass of beer for a pittance. You could sit there mid-afternoon and just watch the people walk by.

Right at the end of the Donna Paula pier was just one Goan-run restaurant, selling possibly the best choritzo pao and rum and coke. I think he's still there, surrounded by a myriad unflattering vendors calling out to tourists. Behind those little bungalows was a cove, a tiny inlet, that allowed us to bath without gawking men.

Yes, yes, all the nostalgia of a NRI to you but maybe nostalgia is important to human beings. It tells us that something currently is not quite as it should be.
From: Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 6:49 PM
I too went to college in Panjim, a
little before Selma did... and the
same college too. While it is always nostalgic to live in
the past,
what I remember of Panjim was that
Sandeep Heble
2009-10-26 10:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Cecil,

I largely agree with you. I too feel that Selma?s comments are grossly
exaggerated.

Panjim was a beautiful city then and it continues to be a beautiful
city now. It was badly managed then and it continues to be badly
managed now, especially by the present CCP Council which stinks.

However, the facilities are much better now then they used to be in
those days and in that sense you are right when you say that Panjim
has only improved and has by no means deteriorated. Of course, Panjim
city really started taking shape during Manohar Parrikar?s tenure as
the Chief Minister and we must give the city MLA the due credit for
that.

If you can recollect, the Children?s Park was in such a pathetic
condition 20 years back, with little children hardly frequenting it.
Ditto with the city bus-stand which too was a big mess. For the cinema
buffs, watching a movie was nothing short of going through an Ordeal,
with theatres in an unhygienic condition, rats moving all around and
seats infected with bugs. The city lacked so many other facilities
too.

Today, the city can boast of having a World Class Multiplex, with at
least 5 to 6 ?Film Festivals? held every year, giving the city
residents plenty of scope for fun and entertainment, all year round.
The Children?s Park with its improved lawns, fountains, swings and
other play-stations too is in a much better shape than it used to be
earlier. We organize so many of our programmes and events there.

The Kala Academy too is much improved. The Park cum Garden in
Caranzalem has been beautifully developed. The city Bus-stand is much
better organized now; the Ambedkar Garden in its vicinity is another
place that has been wonderfully developed along with the ?Spring? at
Boca de Vaca. Then for the sportsmen, sports facilities are much
better, whether at the Indoor Stadium at Campal or the Oratory in Don
Bosco?s or the Gasper Dias at Miramar.

In brief, Panjim is more appealing today than it was in the past.

Having said that, the city Garden and the Campal Football stadium have
gone from bad to worse. But with a more responsive Government and a
more efficient and honest CCP, these can be put back to shape too.

Cheers,
Sandeep
Carvalho
2009-10-26 13:25:25 UTC
Permalink
From: Sandeep Heble <sandeepheble at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: goanet at goanet.org
Date: Monday, October 26, 2009, 5:43 AM
Cecil,
I largely agree with you. I too feel that Selma?s
comments are grossly
exaggerated.
-------------------------------------------
Dear Sandeep,
I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20 years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That ofcourse is my personal opinion. Maybe I have a certain yardstick by which I am measuring what a township should be so why in your books it becomes an exaggeration I have no idea.

To be honest I am getting a bit tired and fed-up of internet forums. They seem to be marked by a great desire to prove one's own point at the expense of the other poster.

The moment people come onto internet forums they seem to immediately have their ears surgically removed. Any need to listen to another opinion, genuinely listen, without casting some bizarre agenda, calling it a lie, perversion, distortion, exaggeration seems to become an almost impossibility.

Then ofcourse there is the need to have the last word. This some have turned into an Olympic sport. Because of this I have long stopped reading 90% of the posts on Goanet.

Let's not forget the "where your proofers?" These people generally will not offer any substantive proof themselves but will generally try to demean others by throwing that question into the works which on the face of it sounds intelligent but is actually borne out of gross stupidity.

Best of all, Goan internet forums atleast at the place where NRI bashing becomes an acceptable pastime, cheered on by some hapless, toothless, men who might have found a cybercafe right next to the village tinto. What do NRIs know about Goa? They live else, let's discredit everything they have to say because they aren't earning in rupees. NEver mind that they are Goans who might have spent considerable time periods in Goa, or that they might be discerning individuals with some insight to offer. Nope Sir. If they live beyond Karwar, they have no right to say anything about Goa.

Well, to be honest, I think I've had my fill for a while.

Sorry all this ended up on your post Sandeep. It is not intended for you.

Best,
selma
Sandeep Heble
2009-10-26 18:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Selma Carvalho wrote:
"I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20
years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of
Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That of course is my
personal opinion. Maybe I have a certain yardstick by which I am
measuring what a township should be so why in your books it becomes an
exaggeration I have no idea."

-----------------------------

Dear Selma,

A few things you wrote did make a lot of sense, but words like
"faceless" and "collapse of former glory" were a bit over the top, the
reasons cited by me in my previous post. Having been born and brought
up in this city and having lived, seen, and experienced the city in
all its glory 20 years back and now, there is just no way I can be
with you on this one. The city is still very charming and appealing.
But yes, you are entitled to your opinion and we to ours.

An opinion is good or bad, perfect or flawed based on its content.
Trying to discredit your opinions on the basis of your NRI status or
your Religion or other personal factors is nothing but intellectual
bankruptcy (borrowing VG?s recent words). I am with you on this one.

regards,
Sandeep
Mario Goveia
2009-10-26 15:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:36:51 +0530
From: Cecil Pinto <cecilpinto at gmail.com>

Is the correct phrasing 'on the Altinho' or 'at Altinho'?

Mario observes:

Cecil,

Residents of Altinho enjoy a sort of "lofty" status, if you know what I mean, with pun intended:-))

Its a crying shame that some shameless government bureaucrat decided to build the ugliest building in all of Goa at its peak, the PWD Office.
From Altinho the Panjim aristocracy that Selma belongs to can look down on the unwashed proletariat in the teeming streets below:-))
?
I loved Panjim when the Portuguese occupiers ran the place with an iron fist, and I love Panjim now that I am a part-time Ponjekar.? It was an exotic colonial backwater then; it is vibrant and charming still, more so than most of India.

And, scr.,? ...er, to heck with, those who disagree with me:-))

I think most Goanetters have no clue what the rest of India has become.

However, all it will take to clean up Panjim again is electing the right administration.

Whatever one thought of Manohar Parrikar back in the early 2000s, he had pretty much succeeded in making it "Panjim Shining".? The place was veritably spotless in those days.

Now, even Babush has to look down from the elegant Monserrate Palace II on kachra strewn along Miramar beach.
Carvalho
2009-10-27 09:16:10 UTC
Permalink
From Altinho the Panjim aristocracy that Selma belongs
to can look down on the unwashed proletariat in the teeming
streets below:-))
?
----------------------------------------------
Dear Mario,

I don't belong to the Panjim aristocracy. I lived as a boarder with the nuns of the French order, way up on the Altinho. They spoke French and wore dresses. In anycase, they grew fed up with me wearing skirts that ended way above my knees, partying too and skipping college and threw me out after two years of being there. So I moved in with another set of nuns on 18th June Road, who couldn't care less what I wore. Their digs stunk to high heaven and were nothing as plush as the digs on Altinho but I enjoyed the company of my room-mates nonetheless. That was my last year of college so it wasn't that bad. The Bishop would come every once a week to say Mass and sometimes I'd do the reading, something which I still enjoy doing tremendously.

On the Altinho were the two Menezes houses, which are still there today. We were good friends with their boys. The eldest of their clan, and trust me they are a clan, was almost the first boy to get his red Maruti car and he'd take us around town on rides. Ofcourse I didn't hang out with them as much as some of the other girls in my group. No, they were far too sedate for me.

I had my own gang of friends with Enfeild motorbikes, who chained smoked, drunk themselves into oblivion and went to acid rock concerts at Farmagudi. Those were the boys I hung out with. They did extremely well for themselves later in life. Proof positive that academic success accounts for nothing in life.

Somewhere in there is a good book :-))

I know some of them lurk on Goanet, so seriously guys we must plan a reunion sometime.

Best,
selma
JoeGoaUk
2009-10-24 19:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
?
Shitting Zone
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039629749/sizes/l/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375678/
?
?
Sleeping zone
what's sleeping zone also mean?
It also mean shitting zone, pissing zone, spitting zone etc etc
As everything done around same place.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040378106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751572/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040377728/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039626797/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4019372324/
all benches taken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4037301762/
Traffic cop sleeping?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751910/
?
Fresh batch has just arrived?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033752646/
?
graveyard on the pavements?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375008/
?
city Kiosk owners are back?
Near Cine national
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462325/
?
?
Dangerous Parking near Panjim Church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932546271/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3933328004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932545311/
?
?
At the Campal art Park entrance
'Goaway you visitors, something sinister happening here'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3929814827/
?
?
One lane of DB Road reserved for parking?
For the customers of the new restaurant owned by dy. Mayor
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3916973472/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3912764841/
related
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3995720726/
?
?
dumping Zone at KTC Bus Stand
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888279159/
another, nearby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888278165/
?


Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk

for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/

For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa

In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc


Add whatever you love to the Yahoo! India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
Carvalho
2009-10-24 22:14:02 UTC
Permalink
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's photographs. 20 years ago, I did my college in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho. Every weekend I would go home and return Monday morning in time for college. As Panjim came into view, my hair would literally stand of edge every Monday without fail, this magnificent town with its Church, the Bishop's palace, the sumptious houses of its gentry in Altinho, the merchant class in the Latin quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time at Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi, then a short trip on a bike to Mira Mar and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula. All that is gone now. It's a faceless town, caught within a sad embrace of unappealing modernity and the quivering collapse of its former glory. Now, Panjim as I knew it lives only in my memory.

best,
selma
From: JoeGoaUk <joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: goanet at goanet.org
Cc: "Parrikar Manohar bjp" <parrikar at bjpgoa.in>, commissioner at ccpgoa.com, "New Herald Id" <editor at herald-goa.com>, "goan NRI" <goan-nri at yahoogroups.co.in>, "Parrikar" <manoharparrikar at yahoo.co.in>, "surendra Furtado ccp" <alcinpac at sancharnet.in>, "clinton vaz" <klintvaz at gmail.com>, gteditor at gmail.com
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 2:01 PM
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim
Pics
?
Shitting Zone
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039629749/sizes/l/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375678/
?
?
Sleeping zone
what's sleeping zone also mean?
It also mean shitting zone, pissing zone, spitting zone etc
etc
As everything done around same place.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040378106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751572/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040377728/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039626797/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4019372324/
all benches taken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4037301762/
Traffic cop sleeping?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751910/
?
Fresh batch has just arrived?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033752646/
?
graveyard on the pavements?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375008/
?
city Kiosk owners are back?
Near Cine national
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462325/
?
?
Dangerous Parking near Panjim Church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932546271/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3933328004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932545311/
?
?
At the Campal art Park entrance
'Goaway you visitors, something sinister happening here'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3929814827/
?
?
One lane of DB Road reserved for parking?
For the customers of the new restaurant owned by dy. Mayor
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3916973472/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3912764841/
related
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3995720726/
?
?
dumping Zone at KTC Bus Stand
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888279159/
another, nearby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888278165/
?
Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk
for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/
For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa
In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc
? ? ? Add whatever you love to the Yahoo!
India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
Cecil Pinto
2009-10-25 05:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Selma Carvalho:
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's photographs. 20 years ago, I
did my college in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho. Every weekend
I would go home and return Monday morning in time for college. As
Panjim came into view, my hair would literally stand of edge every
Monday without fail, this magnificent town with its Church, the
Bishop's palace, the sumptious houses of its gentry in Altinho, the
merchant class in the Latin quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time at
Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi, then a short trip on a bike to
Mira Mar and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula. All that is gone now.
It's a faceless town, caught within a sad embrace of unappealing
modernity and the quivering collapse of its former glory. Now, Panjim
as I knew it lives only in my memory.

-------------



1) Nothing about Panjim that Selma described above has changed in the
last 20 years. It's current glory is even more appealing than its
'former glory' that I have seen from working and living in the city
for the last 25 years. Panjim continues to have a unique character,
envied by many cities worldwide, and definitely cannot be described as
a 'faceless town'.


2) Is the correct phrasing 'on the Altinho' or 'at Altinho'?

Cheers!

Cecil

=====
Carvalho
2009-10-25 10:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Dear Frederick,

First of all I resent the statement that NRIs are always grumbling and comparing Goa to the places they currently live in. This is a great fallacy and much local hubris for let me put it to you honestly, Goa cannot even in another 100 years compare to the sort of infrastructure, design and amenities that the cities NRIs live in offer. If we compare Goa to a London or California or Dubai, we would be suffering from some sort of permanent mental schism.

The problem with Goa is only this, the infrastructure has not expanded to accommodate a sudden influx of people, and the ways it has expanded has been indiscrimanant with scant regard for design nor asthetics. If one stands at the Kadamba bus station and views the chaos that ensues there for just 10 minutes, most people will know what I am talking about.

It's true that 20 years ago, we didn't have a lot of the things you say we didn't have. Personally I never felt anything wrong with tamdhi mathi being in St. Inez. Some of my best friends in college were regular visitors there. Imagine now, college-going boys will have to travel all the way to Chimbel. That itself is a deterioration in the services offered from the former Panjim.

But 20 years ago, neither did we see people defecating on the roads, steel and glass buildings in a town that should never have steel and glass (who gives the NOC for such asthetic murder), Campal was still beautiful, Mira Mar was a long lonely stretch, not a block of concrete, and true there wasn't a direct road leading from Mira Mar to Donna Paula, but that goodness for that.

All along the Mandovi were Goan-run business', one or two mom-n-pop type restaurants that would sell rechad badga and a glass of beer for a pittance. You could sit there mid-afternoon and just watch the people walk by.

Right at the end of the Donna Paula pier was just one Goan-run restaurant, selling possibly the best choritzo pao and rum and coke. I think he's still there, surrounded by a myriad unflattering vendors calling out to tourists. Behind those little bungalows was a cove, a tiny inlet, that allowed us to bath without gawking men.

Yes, yes, all the nostalgia of a NRI to you but maybe nostalgia is important to human beings. It tells us that something currently is not quite as it should be.
From: Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 6:49 PM
I too went to college in Panjim, a
little before Selma did... and the
same college too. While it is always nostalgic to live in
the past,
what I remember of Panjim was that
Sandeep Heble
2009-10-26 10:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Cecil,

I largely agree with you. I too feel that Selma?s comments are grossly
exaggerated.

Panjim was a beautiful city then and it continues to be a beautiful
city now. It was badly managed then and it continues to be badly
managed now, especially by the present CCP Council which stinks.

However, the facilities are much better now then they used to be in
those days and in that sense you are right when you say that Panjim
has only improved and has by no means deteriorated. Of course, Panjim
city really started taking shape during Manohar Parrikar?s tenure as
the Chief Minister and we must give the city MLA the due credit for
that.

If you can recollect, the Children?s Park was in such a pathetic
condition 20 years back, with little children hardly frequenting it.
Ditto with the city bus-stand which too was a big mess. For the cinema
buffs, watching a movie was nothing short of going through an Ordeal,
with theatres in an unhygienic condition, rats moving all around and
seats infected with bugs. The city lacked so many other facilities
too.

Today, the city can boast of having a World Class Multiplex, with at
least 5 to 6 ?Film Festivals? held every year, giving the city
residents plenty of scope for fun and entertainment, all year round.
The Children?s Park with its improved lawns, fountains, swings and
other play-stations too is in a much better shape than it used to be
earlier. We organize so many of our programmes and events there.

The Kala Academy too is much improved. The Park cum Garden in
Caranzalem has been beautifully developed. The city Bus-stand is much
better organized now; the Ambedkar Garden in its vicinity is another
place that has been wonderfully developed along with the ?Spring? at
Boca de Vaca. Then for the sportsmen, sports facilities are much
better, whether at the Indoor Stadium at Campal or the Oratory in Don
Bosco?s or the Gasper Dias at Miramar.

In brief, Panjim is more appealing today than it was in the past.

Having said that, the city Garden and the Campal Football stadium have
gone from bad to worse. But with a more responsive Government and a
more efficient and honest CCP, these can be put back to shape too.

Cheers,
Sandeep
Carvalho
2009-10-26 13:25:25 UTC
Permalink
From: Sandeep Heble <sandeepheble at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: goanet at goanet.org
Date: Monday, October 26, 2009, 5:43 AM
Cecil,
I largely agree with you. I too feel that Selma?s
comments are grossly
exaggerated.
-------------------------------------------
Dear Sandeep,
I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20 years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That ofcourse is my personal opinion. Maybe I have a certain yardstick by which I am measuring what a township should be so why in your books it becomes an exaggeration I have no idea.

To be honest I am getting a bit tired and fed-up of internet forums. They seem to be marked by a great desire to prove one's own point at the expense of the other poster.

The moment people come onto internet forums they seem to immediately have their ears surgically removed. Any need to listen to another opinion, genuinely listen, without casting some bizarre agenda, calling it a lie, perversion, distortion, exaggeration seems to become an almost impossibility.

Then ofcourse there is the need to have the last word. This some have turned into an Olympic sport. Because of this I have long stopped reading 90% of the posts on Goanet.

Let's not forget the "where your proofers?" These people generally will not offer any substantive proof themselves but will generally try to demean others by throwing that question into the works which on the face of it sounds intelligent but is actually borne out of gross stupidity.

Best of all, Goan internet forums atleast at the place where NRI bashing becomes an acceptable pastime, cheered on by some hapless, toothless, men who might have found a cybercafe right next to the village tinto. What do NRIs know about Goa? They live else, let's discredit everything they have to say because they aren't earning in rupees. NEver mind that they are Goans who might have spent considerable time periods in Goa, or that they might be discerning individuals with some insight to offer. Nope Sir. If they live beyond Karwar, they have no right to say anything about Goa.

Well, to be honest, I think I've had my fill for a while.

Sorry all this ended up on your post Sandeep. It is not intended for you.

Best,
selma
Sandeep Heble
2009-10-26 18:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Selma Carvalho wrote:
"I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20
years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of
Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That of course is my
personal opinion. Maybe I have a certain yardstick by which I am
measuring what a township should be so why in your books it becomes an
exaggeration I have no idea."

-----------------------------

Dear Selma,

A few things you wrote did make a lot of sense, but words like
"faceless" and "collapse of former glory" were a bit over the top, the
reasons cited by me in my previous post. Having been born and brought
up in this city and having lived, seen, and experienced the city in
all its glory 20 years back and now, there is just no way I can be
with you on this one. The city is still very charming and appealing.
But yes, you are entitled to your opinion and we to ours.

An opinion is good or bad, perfect or flawed based on its content.
Trying to discredit your opinions on the basis of your NRI status or
your Religion or other personal factors is nothing but intellectual
bankruptcy (borrowing VG?s recent words). I am with you on this one.

regards,
Sandeep
Mario Goveia
2009-10-26 15:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:36:51 +0530
From: Cecil Pinto <cecilpinto at gmail.com>

Is the correct phrasing 'on the Altinho' or 'at Altinho'?

Mario observes:

Cecil,

Residents of Altinho enjoy a sort of "lofty" status, if you know what I mean, with pun intended:-))

Its a crying shame that some shameless government bureaucrat decided to build the ugliest building in all of Goa at its peak, the PWD Office.
From Altinho the Panjim aristocracy that Selma belongs to can look down on the unwashed proletariat in the teeming streets below:-))
?
I loved Panjim when the Portuguese occupiers ran the place with an iron fist, and I love Panjim now that I am a part-time Ponjekar.? It was an exotic colonial backwater then; it is vibrant and charming still, more so than most of India.

And, scr.,? ...er, to heck with, those who disagree with me:-))

I think most Goanetters have no clue what the rest of India has become.

However, all it will take to clean up Panjim again is electing the right administration.

Whatever one thought of Manohar Parrikar back in the early 2000s, he had pretty much succeeded in making it "Panjim Shining".? The place was veritably spotless in those days.

Now, even Babush has to look down from the elegant Monserrate Palace II on kachra strewn along Miramar beach.
Carvalho
2009-10-27 09:16:10 UTC
Permalink
From Altinho the Panjim aristocracy that Selma belongs
to can look down on the unwashed proletariat in the teeming
streets below:-))
?
----------------------------------------------
Dear Mario,

I don't belong to the Panjim aristocracy. I lived as a boarder with the nuns of the French order, way up on the Altinho. They spoke French and wore dresses. In anycase, they grew fed up with me wearing skirts that ended way above my knees, partying too and skipping college and threw me out after two years of being there. So I moved in with another set of nuns on 18th June Road, who couldn't care less what I wore. Their digs stunk to high heaven and were nothing as plush as the digs on Altinho but I enjoyed the company of my room-mates nonetheless. That was my last year of college so it wasn't that bad. The Bishop would come every once a week to say Mass and sometimes I'd do the reading, something which I still enjoy doing tremendously.

On the Altinho were the two Menezes houses, which are still there today. We were good friends with their boys. The eldest of their clan, and trust me they are a clan, was almost the first boy to get his red Maruti car and he'd take us around town on rides. Ofcourse I didn't hang out with them as much as some of the other girls in my group. No, they were far too sedate for me.

I had my own gang of friends with Enfeild motorbikes, who chained smoked, drunk themselves into oblivion and went to acid rock concerts at Farmagudi. Those were the boys I hung out with. They did extremely well for themselves later in life. Proof positive that academic success accounts for nothing in life.

Somewhere in there is a good book :-))

I know some of them lurk on Goanet, so seriously guys we must plan a reunion sometime.

Best,
selma
JoeGoaUk
2009-10-24 19:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
?
Shitting Zone
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039629749/sizes/l/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375678/
?
?
Sleeping zone
what's sleeping zone also mean?
It also mean shitting zone, pissing zone, spitting zone etc etc
As everything done around same place.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040378106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751572/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040377728/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039626797/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4019372324/
all benches taken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4037301762/
Traffic cop sleeping?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751910/
?
Fresh batch has just arrived?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033752646/
?
graveyard on the pavements?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375008/
?
city Kiosk owners are back?
Near Cine national
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462325/
?
?
Dangerous Parking near Panjim Church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932546271/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3933328004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932545311/
?
?
At the Campal art Park entrance
'Goaway you visitors, something sinister happening here'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3929814827/
?
?
One lane of DB Road reserved for parking?
For the customers of the new restaurant owned by dy. Mayor
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3916973472/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3912764841/
related
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3995720726/
?
?
dumping Zone at KTC Bus Stand
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888279159/
another, nearby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888278165/
?


Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk

for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/

For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa

In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc


Add whatever you love to the Yahoo! India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
Carvalho
2009-10-24 22:14:02 UTC
Permalink
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's photographs. 20 years ago, I did my college in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho. Every weekend I would go home and return Monday morning in time for college. As Panjim came into view, my hair would literally stand of edge every Monday without fail, this magnificent town with its Church, the Bishop's palace, the sumptious houses of its gentry in Altinho, the merchant class in the Latin quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time at Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi, then a short trip on a bike to Mira Mar and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula. All that is gone now. It's a faceless town, caught within a sad embrace of unappealing modernity and the quivering collapse of its former glory. Now, Panjim as I knew it lives only in my memory.

best,
selma
From: JoeGoaUk <joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: goanet at goanet.org
Cc: "Parrikar Manohar bjp" <parrikar at bjpgoa.in>, commissioner at ccpgoa.com, "New Herald Id" <editor at herald-goa.com>, "goan NRI" <goan-nri at yahoogroups.co.in>, "Parrikar" <manoharparrikar at yahoo.co.in>, "surendra Furtado ccp" <alcinpac at sancharnet.in>, "clinton vaz" <klintvaz at gmail.com>, gteditor at gmail.com
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 2:01 PM
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim
Pics
?
Shitting Zone
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039629749/sizes/l/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375678/
?
?
Sleeping zone
what's sleeping zone also mean?
It also mean shitting zone, pissing zone, spitting zone etc
etc
As everything done around same place.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040378106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751572/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040377728/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039626797/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4019372324/
all benches taken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4037301762/
Traffic cop sleeping?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751910/
?
Fresh batch has just arrived?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033752646/
?
graveyard on the pavements?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375008/
?
city Kiosk owners are back?
Near Cine national
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462325/
?
?
Dangerous Parking near Panjim Church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932546271/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3933328004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932545311/
?
?
At the Campal art Park entrance
'Goaway you visitors, something sinister happening here'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3929814827/
?
?
One lane of DB Road reserved for parking?
For the customers of the new restaurant owned by dy. Mayor
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3916973472/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3912764841/
related
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3995720726/
?
?
dumping Zone at KTC Bus Stand
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888279159/
another, nearby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888278165/
?
Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk
for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/
For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa
In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc
? ? ? Add whatever you love to the Yahoo!
India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
Cecil Pinto
2009-10-25 05:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Selma Carvalho:
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's photographs. 20 years ago, I
did my college in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho. Every weekend
I would go home and return Monday morning in time for college. As
Panjim came into view, my hair would literally stand of edge every
Monday without fail, this magnificent town with its Church, the
Bishop's palace, the sumptious houses of its gentry in Altinho, the
merchant class in the Latin quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time at
Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi, then a short trip on a bike to
Mira Mar and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula. All that is gone now.
It's a faceless town, caught within a sad embrace of unappealing
modernity and the quivering collapse of its former glory. Now, Panjim
as I knew it lives only in my memory.

-------------



1) Nothing about Panjim that Selma described above has changed in the
last 20 years. It's current glory is even more appealing than its
'former glory' that I have seen from working and living in the city
for the last 25 years. Panjim continues to have a unique character,
envied by many cities worldwide, and definitely cannot be described as
a 'faceless town'.


2) Is the correct phrasing 'on the Altinho' or 'at Altinho'?

Cheers!

Cecil

=====
Carvalho
2009-10-25 10:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Dear Frederick,

First of all I resent the statement that NRIs are always grumbling and comparing Goa to the places they currently live in. This is a great fallacy and much local hubris for let me put it to you honestly, Goa cannot even in another 100 years compare to the sort of infrastructure, design and amenities that the cities NRIs live in offer. If we compare Goa to a London or California or Dubai, we would be suffering from some sort of permanent mental schism.

The problem with Goa is only this, the infrastructure has not expanded to accommodate a sudden influx of people, and the ways it has expanded has been indiscrimanant with scant regard for design nor asthetics. If one stands at the Kadamba bus station and views the chaos that ensues there for just 10 minutes, most people will know what I am talking about.

It's true that 20 years ago, we didn't have a lot of the things you say we didn't have. Personally I never felt anything wrong with tamdhi mathi being in St. Inez. Some of my best friends in college were regular visitors there. Imagine now, college-going boys will have to travel all the way to Chimbel. That itself is a deterioration in the services offered from the former Panjim.

But 20 years ago, neither did we see people defecating on the roads, steel and glass buildings in a town that should never have steel and glass (who gives the NOC for such asthetic murder), Campal was still beautiful, Mira Mar was a long lonely stretch, not a block of concrete, and true there wasn't a direct road leading from Mira Mar to Donna Paula, but that goodness for that.

All along the Mandovi were Goan-run business', one or two mom-n-pop type restaurants that would sell rechad badga and a glass of beer for a pittance. You could sit there mid-afternoon and just watch the people walk by.

Right at the end of the Donna Paula pier was just one Goan-run restaurant, selling possibly the best choritzo pao and rum and coke. I think he's still there, surrounded by a myriad unflattering vendors calling out to tourists. Behind those little bungalows was a cove, a tiny inlet, that allowed us to bath without gawking men.

Yes, yes, all the nostalgia of a NRI to you but maybe nostalgia is important to human beings. It tells us that something currently is not quite as it should be.
From: Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 6:49 PM
I too went to college in Panjim, a
little before Selma did... and the
same college too. While it is always nostalgic to live in
the past,
what I remember of Panjim was that
Sandeep Heble
2009-10-26 10:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Cecil,

I largely agree with you. I too feel that Selma?s comments are grossly
exaggerated.

Panjim was a beautiful city then and it continues to be a beautiful
city now. It was badly managed then and it continues to be badly
managed now, especially by the present CCP Council which stinks.

However, the facilities are much better now then they used to be in
those days and in that sense you are right when you say that Panjim
has only improved and has by no means deteriorated. Of course, Panjim
city really started taking shape during Manohar Parrikar?s tenure as
the Chief Minister and we must give the city MLA the due credit for
that.

If you can recollect, the Children?s Park was in such a pathetic
condition 20 years back, with little children hardly frequenting it.
Ditto with the city bus-stand which too was a big mess. For the cinema
buffs, watching a movie was nothing short of going through an Ordeal,
with theatres in an unhygienic condition, rats moving all around and
seats infected with bugs. The city lacked so many other facilities
too.

Today, the city can boast of having a World Class Multiplex, with at
least 5 to 6 ?Film Festivals? held every year, giving the city
residents plenty of scope for fun and entertainment, all year round.
The Children?s Park with its improved lawns, fountains, swings and
other play-stations too is in a much better shape than it used to be
earlier. We organize so many of our programmes and events there.

The Kala Academy too is much improved. The Park cum Garden in
Caranzalem has been beautifully developed. The city Bus-stand is much
better organized now; the Ambedkar Garden in its vicinity is another
place that has been wonderfully developed along with the ?Spring? at
Boca de Vaca. Then for the sportsmen, sports facilities are much
better, whether at the Indoor Stadium at Campal or the Oratory in Don
Bosco?s or the Gasper Dias at Miramar.

In brief, Panjim is more appealing today than it was in the past.

Having said that, the city Garden and the Campal Football stadium have
gone from bad to worse. But with a more responsive Government and a
more efficient and honest CCP, these can be put back to shape too.

Cheers,
Sandeep
Carvalho
2009-10-26 13:25:25 UTC
Permalink
From: Sandeep Heble <sandeepheble at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: goanet at goanet.org
Date: Monday, October 26, 2009, 5:43 AM
Cecil,
I largely agree with you. I too feel that Selma?s
comments are grossly
exaggerated.
-------------------------------------------
Dear Sandeep,
I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20 years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That ofcourse is my personal opinion. Maybe I have a certain yardstick by which I am measuring what a township should be so why in your books it becomes an exaggeration I have no idea.

To be honest I am getting a bit tired and fed-up of internet forums. They seem to be marked by a great desire to prove one's own point at the expense of the other poster.

The moment people come onto internet forums they seem to immediately have their ears surgically removed. Any need to listen to another opinion, genuinely listen, without casting some bizarre agenda, calling it a lie, perversion, distortion, exaggeration seems to become an almost impossibility.

Then ofcourse there is the need to have the last word. This some have turned into an Olympic sport. Because of this I have long stopped reading 90% of the posts on Goanet.

Let's not forget the "where your proofers?" These people generally will not offer any substantive proof themselves but will generally try to demean others by throwing that question into the works which on the face of it sounds intelligent but is actually borne out of gross stupidity.

Best of all, Goan internet forums atleast at the place where NRI bashing becomes an acceptable pastime, cheered on by some hapless, toothless, men who might have found a cybercafe right next to the village tinto. What do NRIs know about Goa? They live else, let's discredit everything they have to say because they aren't earning in rupees. NEver mind that they are Goans who might have spent considerable time periods in Goa, or that they might be discerning individuals with some insight to offer. Nope Sir. If they live beyond Karwar, they have no right to say anything about Goa.

Well, to be honest, I think I've had my fill for a while.

Sorry all this ended up on your post Sandeep. It is not intended for you.

Best,
selma
Sandeep Heble
2009-10-26 18:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Selma Carvalho wrote:
"I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20
years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of
Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That of course is my
personal opinion. Maybe I have a certain yardstick by which I am
measuring what a township should be so why in your books it becomes an
exaggeration I have no idea."

-----------------------------

Dear Selma,

A few things you wrote did make a lot of sense, but words like
"faceless" and "collapse of former glory" were a bit over the top, the
reasons cited by me in my previous post. Having been born and brought
up in this city and having lived, seen, and experienced the city in
all its glory 20 years back and now, there is just no way I can be
with you on this one. The city is still very charming and appealing.
But yes, you are entitled to your opinion and we to ours.

An opinion is good or bad, perfect or flawed based on its content.
Trying to discredit your opinions on the basis of your NRI status or
your Religion or other personal factors is nothing but intellectual
bankruptcy (borrowing VG?s recent words). I am with you on this one.

regards,
Sandeep
Mario Goveia
2009-10-26 15:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:36:51 +0530
From: Cecil Pinto <cecilpinto at gmail.com>

Is the correct phrasing 'on the Altinho' or 'at Altinho'?

Mario observes:

Cecil,

Residents of Altinho enjoy a sort of "lofty" status, if you know what I mean, with pun intended:-))

Its a crying shame that some shameless government bureaucrat decided to build the ugliest building in all of Goa at its peak, the PWD Office.
From Altinho the Panjim aristocracy that Selma belongs to can look down on the unwashed proletariat in the teeming streets below:-))
?
I loved Panjim when the Portuguese occupiers ran the place with an iron fist, and I love Panjim now that I am a part-time Ponjekar.? It was an exotic colonial backwater then; it is vibrant and charming still, more so than most of India.

And, scr.,? ...er, to heck with, those who disagree with me:-))

I think most Goanetters have no clue what the rest of India has become.

However, all it will take to clean up Panjim again is electing the right administration.

Whatever one thought of Manohar Parrikar back in the early 2000s, he had pretty much succeeded in making it "Panjim Shining".? The place was veritably spotless in those days.

Now, even Babush has to look down from the elegant Monserrate Palace II on kachra strewn along Miramar beach.
Carvalho
2009-10-27 09:16:10 UTC
Permalink
From Altinho the Panjim aristocracy that Selma belongs
to can look down on the unwashed proletariat in the teeming
streets below:-))
?
----------------------------------------------
Dear Mario,

I don't belong to the Panjim aristocracy. I lived as a boarder with the nuns of the French order, way up on the Altinho. They spoke French and wore dresses. In anycase, they grew fed up with me wearing skirts that ended way above my knees, partying too and skipping college and threw me out after two years of being there. So I moved in with another set of nuns on 18th June Road, who couldn't care less what I wore. Their digs stunk to high heaven and were nothing as plush as the digs on Altinho but I enjoyed the company of my room-mates nonetheless. That was my last year of college so it wasn't that bad. The Bishop would come every once a week to say Mass and sometimes I'd do the reading, something which I still enjoy doing tremendously.

On the Altinho were the two Menezes houses, which are still there today. We were good friends with their boys. The eldest of their clan, and trust me they are a clan, was almost the first boy to get his red Maruti car and he'd take us around town on rides. Ofcourse I didn't hang out with them as much as some of the other girls in my group. No, they were far too sedate for me.

I had my own gang of friends with Enfeild motorbikes, who chained smoked, drunk themselves into oblivion and went to acid rock concerts at Farmagudi. Those were the boys I hung out with. They did extremely well for themselves later in life. Proof positive that academic success accounts for nothing in life.

Somewhere in there is a good book :-))

I know some of them lurk on Goanet, so seriously guys we must plan a reunion sometime.

Best,
selma
JoeGoaUk
2009-10-24 19:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
?
Shitting Zone
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039629749/sizes/l/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375678/
?
?
Sleeping zone
what's sleeping zone also mean?
It also mean shitting zone, pissing zone, spitting zone etc etc
As everything done around same place.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040378106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751572/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040377728/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039626797/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4019372324/
all benches taken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4037301762/
Traffic cop sleeping?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751910/
?
Fresh batch has just arrived?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033752646/
?
graveyard on the pavements?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375008/
?
city Kiosk owners are back?
Near Cine national
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462325/
?
?
Dangerous Parking near Panjim Church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932546271/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3933328004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932545311/
?
?
At the Campal art Park entrance
'Goaway you visitors, something sinister happening here'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3929814827/
?
?
One lane of DB Road reserved for parking?
For the customers of the new restaurant owned by dy. Mayor
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3916973472/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3912764841/
related
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3995720726/
?
?
dumping Zone at KTC Bus Stand
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888279159/
another, nearby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888278165/
?


Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk

for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/

For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa

In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc


Add whatever you love to the Yahoo! India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
Carvalho
2009-10-24 22:14:02 UTC
Permalink
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's photographs. 20 years ago, I did my college in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho. Every weekend I would go home and return Monday morning in time for college. As Panjim came into view, my hair would literally stand of edge every Monday without fail, this magnificent town with its Church, the Bishop's palace, the sumptious houses of its gentry in Altinho, the merchant class in the Latin quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time at Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi, then a short trip on a bike to Mira Mar and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula. All that is gone now. It's a faceless town, caught within a sad embrace of unappealing modernity and the quivering collapse of its former glory. Now, Panjim as I knew it lives only in my memory.

best,
selma
From: JoeGoaUk <joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: goanet at goanet.org
Cc: "Parrikar Manohar bjp" <parrikar at bjpgoa.in>, commissioner at ccpgoa.com, "New Herald Id" <editor at herald-goa.com>, "goan NRI" <goan-nri at yahoogroups.co.in>, "Parrikar" <manoharparrikar at yahoo.co.in>, "surendra Furtado ccp" <alcinpac at sancharnet.in>, "clinton vaz" <klintvaz at gmail.com>, gteditor at gmail.com
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 2:01 PM
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim
Pics
?
Shitting Zone
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039629749/sizes/l/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375678/
?
?
Sleeping zone
what's sleeping zone also mean?
It also mean shitting zone, pissing zone, spitting zone etc
etc
As everything done around same place.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040378106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751572/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040377728/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039626797/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4019372324/
all benches taken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4037301762/
Traffic cop sleeping?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751910/
?
Fresh batch has just arrived?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033752646/
?
graveyard on the pavements?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375008/
?
city Kiosk owners are back?
Near Cine national
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462325/
?
?
Dangerous Parking near Panjim Church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932546271/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3933328004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932545311/
?
?
At the Campal art Park entrance
'Goaway you visitors, something sinister happening here'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3929814827/
?
?
One lane of DB Road reserved for parking?
For the customers of the new restaurant owned by dy. Mayor
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3916973472/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3912764841/
related
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3995720726/
?
?
dumping Zone at KTC Bus Stand
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888279159/
another, nearby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888278165/
?
Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk
for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/
For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa
In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc
? ? ? Add whatever you love to the Yahoo!
India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
Cecil Pinto
2009-10-25 05:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Selma Carvalho:
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's photographs. 20 years ago, I
did my college in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho. Every weekend
I would go home and return Monday morning in time for college. As
Panjim came into view, my hair would literally stand of edge every
Monday without fail, this magnificent town with its Church, the
Bishop's palace, the sumptious houses of its gentry in Altinho, the
merchant class in the Latin quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time at
Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi, then a short trip on a bike to
Mira Mar and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula. All that is gone now.
It's a faceless town, caught within a sad embrace of unappealing
modernity and the quivering collapse of its former glory. Now, Panjim
as I knew it lives only in my memory.

-------------



1) Nothing about Panjim that Selma described above has changed in the
last 20 years. It's current glory is even more appealing than its
'former glory' that I have seen from working and living in the city
for the last 25 years. Panjim continues to have a unique character,
envied by many cities worldwide, and definitely cannot be described as
a 'faceless town'.


2) Is the correct phrasing 'on the Altinho' or 'at Altinho'?

Cheers!

Cecil

=====
Carvalho
2009-10-25 10:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Dear Frederick,

First of all I resent the statement that NRIs are always grumbling and comparing Goa to the places they currently live in. This is a great fallacy and much local hubris for let me put it to you honestly, Goa cannot even in another 100 years compare to the sort of infrastructure, design and amenities that the cities NRIs live in offer. If we compare Goa to a London or California or Dubai, we would be suffering from some sort of permanent mental schism.

The problem with Goa is only this, the infrastructure has not expanded to accommodate a sudden influx of people, and the ways it has expanded has been indiscrimanant with scant regard for design nor asthetics. If one stands at the Kadamba bus station and views the chaos that ensues there for just 10 minutes, most people will know what I am talking about.

It's true that 20 years ago, we didn't have a lot of the things you say we didn't have. Personally I never felt anything wrong with tamdhi mathi being in St. Inez. Some of my best friends in college were regular visitors there. Imagine now, college-going boys will have to travel all the way to Chimbel. That itself is a deterioration in the services offered from the former Panjim.

But 20 years ago, neither did we see people defecating on the roads, steel and glass buildings in a town that should never have steel and glass (who gives the NOC for such asthetic murder), Campal was still beautiful, Mira Mar was a long lonely stretch, not a block of concrete, and true there wasn't a direct road leading from Mira Mar to Donna Paula, but that goodness for that.

All along the Mandovi were Goan-run business', one or two mom-n-pop type restaurants that would sell rechad badga and a glass of beer for a pittance. You could sit there mid-afternoon and just watch the people walk by.

Right at the end of the Donna Paula pier was just one Goan-run restaurant, selling possibly the best choritzo pao and rum and coke. I think he's still there, surrounded by a myriad unflattering vendors calling out to tourists. Behind those little bungalows was a cove, a tiny inlet, that allowed us to bath without gawking men.

Yes, yes, all the nostalgia of a NRI to you but maybe nostalgia is important to human beings. It tells us that something currently is not quite as it should be.
From: Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 6:49 PM
I too went to college in Panjim, a
little before Selma did... and the
same college too. While it is always nostalgic to live in
the past,
what I remember of Panjim was that
Sandeep Heble
2009-10-26 10:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Cecil,

I largely agree with you. I too feel that Selma?s comments are grossly
exaggerated.

Panjim was a beautiful city then and it continues to be a beautiful
city now. It was badly managed then and it continues to be badly
managed now, especially by the present CCP Council which stinks.

However, the facilities are much better now then they used to be in
those days and in that sense you are right when you say that Panjim
has only improved and has by no means deteriorated. Of course, Panjim
city really started taking shape during Manohar Parrikar?s tenure as
the Chief Minister and we must give the city MLA the due credit for
that.

If you can recollect, the Children?s Park was in such a pathetic
condition 20 years back, with little children hardly frequenting it.
Ditto with the city bus-stand which too was a big mess. For the cinema
buffs, watching a movie was nothing short of going through an Ordeal,
with theatres in an unhygienic condition, rats moving all around and
seats infected with bugs. The city lacked so many other facilities
too.

Today, the city can boast of having a World Class Multiplex, with at
least 5 to 6 ?Film Festivals? held every year, giving the city
residents plenty of scope for fun and entertainment, all year round.
The Children?s Park with its improved lawns, fountains, swings and
other play-stations too is in a much better shape than it used to be
earlier. We organize so many of our programmes and events there.

The Kala Academy too is much improved. The Park cum Garden in
Caranzalem has been beautifully developed. The city Bus-stand is much
better organized now; the Ambedkar Garden in its vicinity is another
place that has been wonderfully developed along with the ?Spring? at
Boca de Vaca. Then for the sportsmen, sports facilities are much
better, whether at the Indoor Stadium at Campal or the Oratory in Don
Bosco?s or the Gasper Dias at Miramar.

In brief, Panjim is more appealing today than it was in the past.

Having said that, the city Garden and the Campal Football stadium have
gone from bad to worse. But with a more responsive Government and a
more efficient and honest CCP, these can be put back to shape too.

Cheers,
Sandeep
Carvalho
2009-10-26 13:25:25 UTC
Permalink
From: Sandeep Heble <sandeepheble at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: goanet at goanet.org
Date: Monday, October 26, 2009, 5:43 AM
Cecil,
I largely agree with you. I too feel that Selma?s
comments are grossly
exaggerated.
-------------------------------------------
Dear Sandeep,
I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20 years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That ofcourse is my personal opinion. Maybe I have a certain yardstick by which I am measuring what a township should be so why in your books it becomes an exaggeration I have no idea.

To be honest I am getting a bit tired and fed-up of internet forums. They seem to be marked by a great desire to prove one's own point at the expense of the other poster.

The moment people come onto internet forums they seem to immediately have their ears surgically removed. Any need to listen to another opinion, genuinely listen, without casting some bizarre agenda, calling it a lie, perversion, distortion, exaggeration seems to become an almost impossibility.

Then ofcourse there is the need to have the last word. This some have turned into an Olympic sport. Because of this I have long stopped reading 90% of the posts on Goanet.

Let's not forget the "where your proofers?" These people generally will not offer any substantive proof themselves but will generally try to demean others by throwing that question into the works which on the face of it sounds intelligent but is actually borne out of gross stupidity.

Best of all, Goan internet forums atleast at the place where NRI bashing becomes an acceptable pastime, cheered on by some hapless, toothless, men who might have found a cybercafe right next to the village tinto. What do NRIs know about Goa? They live else, let's discredit everything they have to say because they aren't earning in rupees. NEver mind that they are Goans who might have spent considerable time periods in Goa, or that they might be discerning individuals with some insight to offer. Nope Sir. If they live beyond Karwar, they have no right to say anything about Goa.

Well, to be honest, I think I've had my fill for a while.

Sorry all this ended up on your post Sandeep. It is not intended for you.

Best,
selma
Sandeep Heble
2009-10-26 18:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Selma Carvalho wrote:
"I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20
years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of
Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That of course is my
personal opinion. Maybe I have a certain yardstick by which I am
measuring what a township should be so why in your books it becomes an
exaggeration I have no idea."

-----------------------------

Dear Selma,

A few things you wrote did make a lot of sense, but words like
"faceless" and "collapse of former glory" were a bit over the top, the
reasons cited by me in my previous post. Having been born and brought
up in this city and having lived, seen, and experienced the city in
all its glory 20 years back and now, there is just no way I can be
with you on this one. The city is still very charming and appealing.
But yes, you are entitled to your opinion and we to ours.

An opinion is good or bad, perfect or flawed based on its content.
Trying to discredit your opinions on the basis of your NRI status or
your Religion or other personal factors is nothing but intellectual
bankruptcy (borrowing VG?s recent words). I am with you on this one.

regards,
Sandeep
Mario Goveia
2009-10-26 15:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:36:51 +0530
From: Cecil Pinto <cecilpinto at gmail.com>

Is the correct phrasing 'on the Altinho' or 'at Altinho'?

Mario observes:

Cecil,

Residents of Altinho enjoy a sort of "lofty" status, if you know what I mean, with pun intended:-))

Its a crying shame that some shameless government bureaucrat decided to build the ugliest building in all of Goa at its peak, the PWD Office.
From Altinho the Panjim aristocracy that Selma belongs to can look down on the unwashed proletariat in the teeming streets below:-))
?
I loved Panjim when the Portuguese occupiers ran the place with an iron fist, and I love Panjim now that I am a part-time Ponjekar.? It was an exotic colonial backwater then; it is vibrant and charming still, more so than most of India.

And, scr.,? ...er, to heck with, those who disagree with me:-))

I think most Goanetters have no clue what the rest of India has become.

However, all it will take to clean up Panjim again is electing the right administration.

Whatever one thought of Manohar Parrikar back in the early 2000s, he had pretty much succeeded in making it "Panjim Shining".? The place was veritably spotless in those days.

Now, even Babush has to look down from the elegant Monserrate Palace II on kachra strewn along Miramar beach.
Carvalho
2009-10-27 09:16:10 UTC
Permalink
From Altinho the Panjim aristocracy that Selma belongs
to can look down on the unwashed proletariat in the teeming
streets below:-))
?
----------------------------------------------
Dear Mario,

I don't belong to the Panjim aristocracy. I lived as a boarder with the nuns of the French order, way up on the Altinho. They spoke French and wore dresses. In anycase, they grew fed up with me wearing skirts that ended way above my knees, partying too and skipping college and threw me out after two years of being there. So I moved in with another set of nuns on 18th June Road, who couldn't care less what I wore. Their digs stunk to high heaven and were nothing as plush as the digs on Altinho but I enjoyed the company of my room-mates nonetheless. That was my last year of college so it wasn't that bad. The Bishop would come every once a week to say Mass and sometimes I'd do the reading, something which I still enjoy doing tremendously.

On the Altinho were the two Menezes houses, which are still there today. We were good friends with their boys. The eldest of their clan, and trust me they are a clan, was almost the first boy to get his red Maruti car and he'd take us around town on rides. Ofcourse I didn't hang out with them as much as some of the other girls in my group. No, they were far too sedate for me.

I had my own gang of friends with Enfeild motorbikes, who chained smoked, drunk themselves into oblivion and went to acid rock concerts at Farmagudi. Those were the boys I hung out with. They did extremely well for themselves later in life. Proof positive that academic success accounts for nothing in life.

Somewhere in there is a good book :-))

I know some of them lurk on Goanet, so seriously guys we must plan a reunion sometime.

Best,
selma
JoeGoaUk
2009-10-24 19:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
?
Shitting Zone
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039629749/sizes/l/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375678/
?
?
Sleeping zone
what's sleeping zone also mean?
It also mean shitting zone, pissing zone, spitting zone etc etc
As everything done around same place.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040378106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751572/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040377728/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039626797/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4019372324/
all benches taken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4037301762/
Traffic cop sleeping?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751910/
?
Fresh batch has just arrived?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033752646/
?
graveyard on the pavements?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375008/
?
city Kiosk owners are back?
Near Cine national
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462325/
?
?
Dangerous Parking near Panjim Church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932546271/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3933328004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932545311/
?
?
At the Campal art Park entrance
'Goaway you visitors, something sinister happening here'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3929814827/
?
?
One lane of DB Road reserved for parking?
For the customers of the new restaurant owned by dy. Mayor
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3916973472/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3912764841/
related
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3995720726/
?
?
dumping Zone at KTC Bus Stand
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888279159/
another, nearby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888278165/
?


Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk

for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/

For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa

In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc


Add whatever you love to the Yahoo! India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
Carvalho
2009-10-24 22:14:02 UTC
Permalink
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's photographs. 20 years ago, I did my college in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho. Every weekend I would go home and return Monday morning in time for college. As Panjim came into view, my hair would literally stand of edge every Monday without fail, this magnificent town with its Church, the Bishop's palace, the sumptious houses of its gentry in Altinho, the merchant class in the Latin quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time at Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi, then a short trip on a bike to Mira Mar and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula. All that is gone now. It's a faceless town, caught within a sad embrace of unappealing modernity and the quivering collapse of its former glory. Now, Panjim as I knew it lives only in my memory.

best,
selma
From: JoeGoaUk <joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: goanet at goanet.org
Cc: "Parrikar Manohar bjp" <parrikar at bjpgoa.in>, commissioner at ccpgoa.com, "New Herald Id" <editor at herald-goa.com>, "goan NRI" <goan-nri at yahoogroups.co.in>, "Parrikar" <manoharparrikar at yahoo.co.in>, "surendra Furtado ccp" <alcinpac at sancharnet.in>, "clinton vaz" <klintvaz at gmail.com>, gteditor at gmail.com
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 2:01 PM
Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim
Pics
?
Shitting Zone
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039629749/sizes/l/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375678/
?
?
Sleeping zone
what's sleeping zone also mean?
It also mean shitting zone, pissing zone, spitting zone etc
etc
As everything done around same place.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040378106/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751572/
?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040377728/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4039626797/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4019372324/
all benches taken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4037301762/
Traffic cop sleeping?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033751910/
?
Fresh batch has just arrived?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4033752646/
?
graveyard on the pavements?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4040375008/
?
city Kiosk owners are back?
Near Cine national
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462825/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/4010462325/
?
?
Dangerous Parking near Panjim Church
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932546271/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3933328004/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3932545311/
?
?
At the Campal art Park entrance
'Goaway you visitors, something sinister happening here'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3929814827/
?
?
One lane of DB Road reserved for parking?
For the customers of the new restaurant owned by dy. Mayor
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3916973472/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3912764841/
related
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3995720726/
?
?
dumping Zone at KTC Bus Stand
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888279159/
another, nearby
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoaukdirtypanjim3/3888278165/
?
Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk
for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/
For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa
In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc
? ? ? Add whatever you love to the Yahoo!
India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew
Cecil Pinto
2009-10-25 05:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Selma Carvalho:
I feel really sad when I watch JoeGoaUK's photographs. 20 years ago, I
did my college in Panjim. I lived there on the Altinho. Every weekend
I would go home and return Monday morning in time for college. As
Panjim came into view, my hair would literally stand of edge every
Monday without fail, this magnificent town with its Church, the
Bishop's palace, the sumptious houses of its gentry in Altinho, the
merchant class in the Latin quarter of Fountainhas, our snack-time at
Quarterdeck overlooking the Mandovi, then a short trip on a bike to
Mira Mar and maybe for a swimm at Donna Paula. All that is gone now.
It's a faceless town, caught within a sad embrace of unappealing
modernity and the quivering collapse of its former glory. Now, Panjim
as I knew it lives only in my memory.

-------------



1) Nothing about Panjim that Selma described above has changed in the
last 20 years. It's current glory is even more appealing than its
'former glory' that I have seen from working and living in the city
for the last 25 years. Panjim continues to have a unique character,
envied by many cities worldwide, and definitely cannot be described as
a 'faceless town'.


2) Is the correct phrasing 'on the Altinho' or 'at Altinho'?

Cheers!

Cecil

=====
Carvalho
2009-10-25 10:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Dear Frederick,

First of all I resent the statement that NRIs are always grumbling and comparing Goa to the places they currently live in. This is a great fallacy and much local hubris for let me put it to you honestly, Goa cannot even in another 100 years compare to the sort of infrastructure, design and amenities that the cities NRIs live in offer. If we compare Goa to a London or California or Dubai, we would be suffering from some sort of permanent mental schism.

The problem with Goa is only this, the infrastructure has not expanded to accommodate a sudden influx of people, and the ways it has expanded has been indiscrimanant with scant regard for design nor asthetics. If one stands at the Kadamba bus station and views the chaos that ensues there for just 10 minutes, most people will know what I am talking about.

It's true that 20 years ago, we didn't have a lot of the things you say we didn't have. Personally I never felt anything wrong with tamdhi mathi being in St. Inez. Some of my best friends in college were regular visitors there. Imagine now, college-going boys will have to travel all the way to Chimbel. That itself is a deterioration in the services offered from the former Panjim.

But 20 years ago, neither did we see people defecating on the roads, steel and glass buildings in a town that should never have steel and glass (who gives the NOC for such asthetic murder), Campal was still beautiful, Mira Mar was a long lonely stretch, not a block of concrete, and true there wasn't a direct road leading from Mira Mar to Donna Paula, but that goodness for that.

All along the Mandovi were Goan-run business', one or two mom-n-pop type restaurants that would sell rechad badga and a glass of beer for a pittance. You could sit there mid-afternoon and just watch the people walk by.

Right at the end of the Donna Paula pier was just one Goan-run restaurant, selling possibly the best choritzo pao and rum and coke. I think he's still there, surrounded by a myriad unflattering vendors calling out to tourists. Behind those little bungalows was a cove, a tiny inlet, that allowed us to bath without gawking men.

Yes, yes, all the nostalgia of a NRI to you but maybe nostalgia is important to human beings. It tells us that something currently is not quite as it should be.
From: Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Saturday, October 24, 2009, 6:49 PM
I too went to college in Panjim, a
little before Selma did... and the
same college too. While it is always nostalgic to live in
the past,
what I remember of Panjim was that
Sandeep Heble
2009-10-26 10:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Cecil,

I largely agree with you. I too feel that Selma?s comments are grossly
exaggerated.

Panjim was a beautiful city then and it continues to be a beautiful
city now. It was badly managed then and it continues to be badly
managed now, especially by the present CCP Council which stinks.

However, the facilities are much better now then they used to be in
those days and in that sense you are right when you say that Panjim
has only improved and has by no means deteriorated. Of course, Panjim
city really started taking shape during Manohar Parrikar?s tenure as
the Chief Minister and we must give the city MLA the due credit for
that.

If you can recollect, the Children?s Park was in such a pathetic
condition 20 years back, with little children hardly frequenting it.
Ditto with the city bus-stand which too was a big mess. For the cinema
buffs, watching a movie was nothing short of going through an Ordeal,
with theatres in an unhygienic condition, rats moving all around and
seats infected with bugs. The city lacked so many other facilities
too.

Today, the city can boast of having a World Class Multiplex, with at
least 5 to 6 ?Film Festivals? held every year, giving the city
residents plenty of scope for fun and entertainment, all year round.
The Children?s Park with its improved lawns, fountains, swings and
other play-stations too is in a much better shape than it used to be
earlier. We organize so many of our programmes and events there.

The Kala Academy too is much improved. The Park cum Garden in
Caranzalem has been beautifully developed. The city Bus-stand is much
better organized now; the Ambedkar Garden in its vicinity is another
place that has been wonderfully developed along with the ?Spring? at
Boca de Vaca. Then for the sportsmen, sports facilities are much
better, whether at the Indoor Stadium at Campal or the Oratory in Don
Bosco?s or the Gasper Dias at Miramar.

In brief, Panjim is more appealing today than it was in the past.

Having said that, the city Garden and the Campal Football stadium have
gone from bad to worse. But with a more responsive Government and a
more efficient and honest CCP, these can be put back to shape too.

Cheers,
Sandeep
Carvalho
2009-10-26 13:25:25 UTC
Permalink
From: Sandeep Heble <sandeepheble at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Some dirty Panjim Pics
To: goanet at goanet.org
Date: Monday, October 26, 2009, 5:43 AM
Cecil,
I largely agree with you. I too feel that Selma?s
comments are grossly
exaggerated.
-------------------------------------------
Dear Sandeep,
I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20 years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That ofcourse is my personal opinion. Maybe I have a certain yardstick by which I am measuring what a township should be so why in your books it becomes an exaggeration I have no idea.

To be honest I am getting a bit tired and fed-up of internet forums. They seem to be marked by a great desire to prove one's own point at the expense of the other poster.

The moment people come onto internet forums they seem to immediately have their ears surgically removed. Any need to listen to another opinion, genuinely listen, without casting some bizarre agenda, calling it a lie, perversion, distortion, exaggeration seems to become an almost impossibility.

Then ofcourse there is the need to have the last word. This some have turned into an Olympic sport. Because of this I have long stopped reading 90% of the posts on Goanet.

Let's not forget the "where your proofers?" These people generally will not offer any substantive proof themselves but will generally try to demean others by throwing that question into the works which on the face of it sounds intelligent but is actually borne out of gross stupidity.

Best of all, Goan internet forums atleast at the place where NRI bashing becomes an acceptable pastime, cheered on by some hapless, toothless, men who might have found a cybercafe right next to the village tinto. What do NRIs know about Goa? They live else, let's discredit everything they have to say because they aren't earning in rupees. NEver mind that they are Goans who might have spent considerable time periods in Goa, or that they might be discerning individuals with some insight to offer. Nope Sir. If they live beyond Karwar, they have no right to say anything about Goa.

Well, to be honest, I think I've had my fill for a while.

Sorry all this ended up on your post Sandeep. It is not intended for you.

Best,
selma
Sandeep Heble
2009-10-26 18:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Selma Carvalho wrote:
"I agree that a lot of things have improved in Goa during the last 20
years. Unfortunately, I cannot include the three main townships of
Margao, Vasco and Panjim being in that list. That of course is my
personal opinion. Maybe I have a certain yardstick by which I am
measuring what a township should be so why in your books it becomes an
exaggeration I have no idea."

-----------------------------

Dear Selma,

A few things you wrote did make a lot of sense, but words like
"faceless" and "collapse of former glory" were a bit over the top, the
reasons cited by me in my previous post. Having been born and brought
up in this city and having lived, seen, and experienced the city in
all its glory 20 years back and now, there is just no way I can be
with you on this one. The city is still very charming and appealing.
But yes, you are entitled to your opinion and we to ours.

An opinion is good or bad, perfect or flawed based on its content.
Trying to discredit your opinions on the basis of your NRI status or
your Religion or other personal factors is nothing but intellectual
bankruptcy (borrowing VG?s recent words). I am with you on this one.

regards,
Sandeep
Mario Goveia
2009-10-26 15:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:36:51 +0530
From: Cecil Pinto <cecilpinto at gmail.com>

Is the correct phrasing 'on the Altinho' or 'at Altinho'?

Mario observes:

Cecil,

Residents of Altinho enjoy a sort of "lofty" status, if you know what I mean, with pun intended:-))

Its a crying shame that some shameless government bureaucrat decided to build the ugliest building in all of Goa at its peak, the PWD Office.
From Altinho the Panjim aristocracy that Selma belongs to can look down on the unwashed proletariat in the teeming streets below:-))
?
I loved Panjim when the Portuguese occupiers ran the place with an iron fist, and I love Panjim now that I am a part-time Ponjekar.? It was an exotic colonial backwater then; it is vibrant and charming still, more so than most of India.

And, scr.,? ...er, to heck with, those who disagree with me:-))

I think most Goanetters have no clue what the rest of India has become.

However, all it will take to clean up Panjim again is electing the right administration.

Whatever one thought of Manohar Parrikar back in the early 2000s, he had pretty much succeeded in making it "Panjim Shining".? The place was veritably spotless in those days.

Now, even Babush has to look down from the elegant Monserrate Palace II on kachra strewn along Miramar beach.
Carvalho
2009-10-27 09:16:10 UTC
Permalink
From Altinho the Panjim aristocracy that Selma belongs
to can look down on the unwashed proletariat in the teeming
streets below:-))
?
----------------------------------------------
Dear Mario,

I don't belong to the Panjim aristocracy. I lived as a boarder with the nuns of the French order, way up on the Altinho. They spoke French and wore dresses. In anycase, they grew fed up with me wearing skirts that ended way above my knees, partying too and skipping college and threw me out after two years of being there. So I moved in with another set of nuns on 18th June Road, who couldn't care less what I wore. Their digs stunk to high heaven and were nothing as plush as the digs on Altinho but I enjoyed the company of my room-mates nonetheless. That was my last year of college so it wasn't that bad. The Bishop would come every once a week to say Mass and sometimes I'd do the reading, something which I still enjoy doing tremendously.

On the Altinho were the two Menezes houses, which are still there today. We were good friends with their boys. The eldest of their clan, and trust me they are a clan, was almost the first boy to get his red Maruti car and he'd take us around town on rides. Ofcourse I didn't hang out with them as much as some of the other girls in my group. No, they were far too sedate for me.

I had my own gang of friends with Enfeild motorbikes, who chained smoked, drunk themselves into oblivion and went to acid rock concerts at Farmagudi. Those were the boys I hung out with. They did extremely well for themselves later in life. Proof positive that academic success accounts for nothing in life.

Somewhere in there is a good book :-))

I know some of them lurk on Goanet, so seriously guys we must plan a reunion sometime.

Best,
selma
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