Discussion:
plagiarism - Jose's responses
(too old to reply)
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-25 03:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,

Thank you much for your very studied responses. I read them carefully. I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along. First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text, NOR a listing of references at the end of the presentation.

Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL "research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by whom? Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies? Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me? Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we know why some 'insist' to others on references, while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one provides the reference, is this reference the original source, who deserves the credit?

I am not claiming this presentation on your web blog is wrong or the information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that you are not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a self-righteous moralist preaching to others? I hope this can be my last post on this tet-a-tet. On this Saturday while I am on call, I enjoyed doing some research on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))
Kind Regards, GL
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
12. Inoculations : Assuming that all the immunizations of childhood are completed, immunization is recommended against Tetanus, Polio, Hepatitis A&B. Vaccination should also be considered against Japanese Encephalitis, Typhoid, Cholera and Meningococcal infections. If a stop-over is planned in Africa, the yellow fever vaccine is recommended.

Typhoid fever : is transmitted usually through contaminated food and water (watch the pani-puri). This disease is common and the risk of contracting infection can be lowered by following the food and water precautions listed above. There are two vaccines currently available for the prevention of typhoid fever. The oral vaccine is available in the form of a capsule to be taken every other day for 4 doses. A booster is required every 5 years. The injectable vaccine ViCPS is administered once every two years. It is important to note that the efficacy of the vaccine is not 100% and that the precautions should be followed meticulously.

Cholera : a severe diarrhoeal disease transmitted mainly through contaminated water and food. The strike rate for Goa at this moment is low and once food and water safety precautions are followed, vaccination against cholera becomes 'very optional' unless a trip to the Ganges area is planned.

Hepatitis A : is a viral infection usually transmitted through uncooked food, water, shellfish and ice. The risk for this infection is high. For short-term protection, a dose of Immunoglobulin ( IG ) is recommended. But for a prolonged stay, it is advisable to avail of the vaccination against this disease. There are two vaccines currently recommended : Havrix and Vaqta. Please contact your local physician and seek advice about what is available in your country and what dosage is recommended.

Hepatitis B : is mainly transmitted through sexual activity and upon receiving inadequately screened blood. The incidence of Hepatitis B in India is high and vaccination is strongly recommended. The vaccination schedule should be commenced at least 6 months before the planned departure to India in order to complete the full schedule of immunization. It is important to remember that contact with infected individuals who have open skin lesions, also may result in infection.

Hepatitis E: Like Hepatitis A, this virus is spread through contaminated food or water. It appears to affect adults more than it affects children, and recovery without chronic liver disease is the norm. Fatalities are rare except in women who contract the infection during pregnancy. This infection is endemic in India, though significant infections were not reported in Goa prior to this 2003 outbreak. At this moment, no vaccine is available for prevention of Hepatitis E.

Meningococcal disease : causes a severe infection of the brain. Vaccination is advised particularly if the port of entry is New Delhi. This disease which is more prevalent in the Northern part of India, occurs year around.

Japanese Encephalitis : is more common in rural rice-field areas and occurs mainly during the monsoon season. It causes a severe swelling of the brain called encephalitis. While there is no drug to treat the disease a vaccine JE-VAX is available for the prevention of this disease. There has recently been a serious outbreak of this disease in North Central India. Travelers are advised to either be vaccinated against this disease or avoid the region altogether. At this moment, the risk of contracting this disease in Goa is small.

Vaccination should be seriously considered for individuals planning to reside in the rural areas especially during the monsoon season. The vaccine is administered in 3 doses. Pregnant women and individuals with a history of multiple allergies should not be administered this vaccine.

Leptospirosis: is a bacterial disease associated with wild and domestic animals. It causes severe symptoms including fever, headache, chills, muscle aches, vomiting, jaundice and a rash. It is easily treatable with antibiotics like Penicillin and Doxycycline. It is primarily an occupational disease that affects those whose occupation involves contact with animals, especially rats. Individuals who walk barefoot through infected puddles ( as after monsoon flooding ) are at risk. This condition is found all over the world and visitors to Goa are NOT at special risk of contracting this disease.

13. Paedophilia : Of late, Goa has received some attention, albeit unwelcome, relating to this totally abhorrent crime by tourists against children. Almost every single paedophile identified so far, has been from Europe. If you are a paedophile, please do not practice it in Goa or on Goans. They are virulently opposed to it and have been sensitized to this offence.

Goa is one of the most beautiful places in the world. There are several magnificent churches, temples, waterfalls, beaches, mosques and historical places of interest. However, the part of Goa you will enjoy the most is its people, food and music. No place on earth can truly duplicate the experience of Goa - not now - not ever.

Have a safe flight...a good trip and do let us know, how your trip was.

J.Cola?o, MD
Jose Colaco
2007-03-26 02:21:23 UTC
Permalink
In response to Gilbert Lawrence. Gilbert's points are as 1-10; JC's
response's as JC 1- JC10


On 24/03/07, Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net> wrote:


1: Thank you much for your very studied responses on Goanet on presentations
and publications of medical information. I read them carefully.

JC 1: Grateful and delighted

--

2: I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along.
First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral
presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching
presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

JC 2: I remind you that "research papers' which are READ / PRESENTED at peer
review (Friday) Conferences are considered PUBLISHED. My response was in
direct response to your query as to what we expect our residents to do.

--
3: I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I
read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical
information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the
bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text or a
listing at the end of the presentation.

JC 3: I agree with you. There are NO references. It is there for the
attention of Travelers. It contains exactly the advice I would give & have
given in my private office; knowledge which I am expected to possess because
of my formal education, qualifications and work experience. The issues here
is PLAGIARISM.

Are you suggesting to me that the "stuff'" which is in your AMCHI KHOBOR
booklet (cost $5 plus postage) is NOT plagiarised?

.---

4: Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL
"research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by who?

JC 4: "What findings" are you referring to. Identify them and I will
explain. I am not very good at explaining a vacuum

--

5: Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies?
Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for
the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this
one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me?

JC 5: Please return to the topic of Plagiarism; Back up for research is an
entirely different topic

--

6: Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

JC 6: It is as published as a blog. It is also quite Free. Did you pay for
access?

--

7: And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now
we know why some 'insist' to otehrs on reference, while not doing it
themselves.:=))

JC 7: I disagree with that premise. Please look up the definition of the
word plagiarize. I submit that one does NOT plagiarize if one "credits the
source.

--

8: I am not claiming this presentation on your web site is wrong or the
information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that, you are
not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a
self-righteous moralist preaching to others? This is my last post on this
tet-a-tet.

JC 8: Thanks ....I am normally not accustomed to 'tet-a-tet'; - whatever
that is.

--

9: On this Saturday while I am on call, I really enjoyed doing some research
on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))

JC 9: I am glad for you. One must enjoy something ...after all

--

10: Kind Regards, GL

JC 10: and the same from here ...always, JC
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 15:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh,
you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the
source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we
know why some 'insist' to others on references,
while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one
provides the reference, is this reference the
original source, who deserves the credit?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable
life to deserve this? How can I make a fully grown man
understand the meaning of plagiarism?

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2007-03-27 16:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable life to deserve this?
How can I make a fully grown man understand the meaning of plagiarism?
Dear Santosh

Gilbert is right. He is referring to "play-ger-rise" and you are referring to plagiarism. I
suspect the vast majority on this forum understand and agree with you, Jose, and Basilio's
definition of plagiarism which was previously provided. I hope any Goan student or academic in the
USA follows your definition of plagiarism to avoid getting in serious trouble. Perhaps the same
rules apply in most other places too.

Gilbert is referring to an entirely different concept (playgerism) whose spelling he mangled. As
Gilbert has correctly clarified, playgerism occurs when a medical student stands in front of a
football audience with a cricket ball and suggests he is a well-known author. When he repeats
himself, this is called self-playgerism.

So now you know the truth.

Regards,
George
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-29 12:24:18 UTC
Permalink
I have to say Frederick is winning this debate hands
down. His arguments are absolutely spot on and he
displays a very profound knowledge about the subject
of plagiarism and its natural by-product copyright.
Frederick's arguments vis-a-vis plagiarism(not intellectual copyright)
miss the mark by a mile. While his arguments might have some merit in
the context of forums such as Goanet or informal write-ups, they fly in
the face of most accepted academic norms.

He is still considering it from the rather naive perspective of "I
would be happy if someone copied my work with or without reference".
Current academic research(which is an inetgral part of human
advancement) would entirely collapse if researchers were to take such a
casual or selfish approach to this serious plague.

Far from profound, his view is from an arm chair perspective.
Go Frederick, go!
I see that you have taken my cheer-leader jibe a tad too seriously.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-30 05:06:08 UTC
Permalink
This debate has little to do with Gilbert's book, Jose's website or
Frederick "wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit".

This is about first understanding the meaning of plagiarism and resisting an
apparent attempt to revise what it means.

FN: let us not pretend that our views are all original, and not influenced
by what we read and hear.

RESPONSE: That explanation will not work in an academic environment. Many
universities now have a position called CIO - Chief Integrity Officer, to
deal with issues of plagiarism, copying, etc. Its a very serious issue.

SC: Yes, I'm sure people plagiarise thoughts, content, ideas, quotes, all
the time and as reprehensible as it is, on an internet forum, it's hardly
liable or of commercial value or of any great significance to anyone other
than the plagiariser's ego.

RESPONSE: In the case of JoeGoaUK and as informed by Jason, the website that
plagiarised JoeGoaUK's original creation (photos) has won some award.
Dismissing plagiarising as lacking significance would be unfair to the one
whose work was plagiarised.

GL: Contrary to what Santosh writes, merely giving the source of information
/ reference does not constitute "authorized use" or permission to plagerize.

RESPONSE: You cannot get permission to plagiarise. You can obtain a
permission to copy/duplicate.

GL: Santosh seeks to apply the same standards to a lay-person bulletin board
or high school and graduate non-fictional publications, in Goa or in USA.

RESPONSE: I tend to agree with SH on this issue. As I said earlier, some
Goanetters send news articles to Goanet without including a weblink to the
source. That can get troublesome when the original creator finds his/her
article on Goanet without a reference. Another reason why Goanet Rules
require only a blurb to be sent to Goanet with a weblink to the entire
article. Some people understand, some do not. I have received messages from
Wikipedia editors requesting permission/compliance for some articles being
lifted from Goanet and pasted directly in Wikipedia without quoting sources.
Those messages were directed to the authors of the articles/posts. It would
be safe to surmise that Wikipedia is concerned about plagiarism too.

GL: Is the absence of the references the deficiency of the author, or is it
the laziness of the reader in failing to further research the facts that is
of interest to them?

RESPONSE: If the author has included exact text from published works, its
"deficiency of the author" (to quote your words).

GL: I have also looked at non-medical non-fictional books in my home
library. None of them had references. I would encourage others to do the
same and check it out for themselves.

RESPONSE: I looked thru my motley collection of books randomly. As far as
most non-fiction books are concerned, they have a Bibliography. I'm looking
at my most recent addition, "India's use of Force in Goa" by "Arthur G.
Rubinoff (thank you Eddie Fernandes for the link) that was published in
1971. The book has a total of 134 pages of which 15 are devoted to the
Bibliography that includes Books, Articles, Periodicals, Pamphlets,
Yearbooks, Cases, Government Documents and Unpublished Material.
P.P. Shirodkar has provided references at the end of each chapter of his
book - Goa's Struggle for Freedom.

- Bosco
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 22:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Copy from one source and it is plagiarism.
Copy from multiple sources and it is research.

Now given all the chest pounding about uprightness,
Would an apology to Selma be forthcoming?
Or is that too much to ask?
Kind Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-21 00:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,

I am surprised that you have not heard / read of this idiom under discussion (see below). But I will be nice and not follow your example and find reasons for your oversight (being polite). Stridency and personalizing a discussion is a poor substitute for well-reasoned arguments. I hope intelligent people can dialogue without getting bent-out-of-shape. So it is time you grow-up and let your writings reflect your skill. A little sense of humor will not hurt.

The thrust of my post was a request for an apology to Selma. And that brings-up an important point about us Goans. We are quick at the draw to accuse, but not to apologize. And this applies to you too, my friend, as I have demonstrated in the past, on many topics.

Now to the issue of plagiarism. My own attitude is: Yes, I agree with you to a point. But do not push your luck too much, as you are wont to do.

It is WELL KNOWN that many use the excuse of plagiarism, including filing law suits, merely to get publicity for themselves and their work. Who would know the accuser's work, if he / she had not used plagiarism as a ruse to display this to us? Others use the threat of plagiarism to suppress other peoples' work. And, as we see on Goanet, to rebut other peoples' argument (Remember Inquisition discussion?:=)).

If somebody copies MY work, I will be very pleased. Because that further expands the message / concepts that I want to spread. My goal of writing a scientific paper (say on breast cancer), is not for self-aggrandizement. It is to help breast cancer patients. So anything that helps in spreading the info and improving the treatment (that is being suggested) is welcome - whether I get credit or not.

It is only an insecure person with little in accomplishments that would waste their time looking for who is doing what to whom. For me I have more important things to work and write on. That is the message I would give other Goans who want to really advance.

No! I am not encouraging people to plagiarize. I am encouraging them to research multiple sources and thoughtfully analyze the material one reads. As I have shown on Goanet, many have the wrong facts or impressions, from their single (or should I say the plagiarized) source.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Santosh Helekar

I am surprised that an educated man is confused about the difference between plagiarism and research. If it is mere confusion or ignorance then one can fault the type of education one has received at home or at the primary school level. But if the apparent moral equivalence between borderline criminal activity and one of the noblest forms of human endeavor, stated above, stems from cynicism, then such an assertion and mindset should be greeted with the utmost condemnation from those who are hoping that our children be better educated.
Copy from one source and it is plagiarism. Copy from multiple sources and it is research.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-21 04:26:40 UTC
Permalink
pla?gia?rism
-noun
1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of
another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

2. something used and represented in this manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If somebody copies MY work, I will be very pleased.
Because that further expands the message / concepts
that I want to spread.
RESPONSE: Gilbert, that's very gracious of you to let others copy your work
but that is not how this issue really works, today, especially from high
school all the way to PhD. Many students have gotten into serious trouble
even for minor infractions at some prestigious schools and there is a fair
amount of air time in the press too. There are utilities out there like
turnitin.com that will help a prof fish you out in a matter of seconds.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
My goal of writing a scientific paper (say on breast
cancer), is not for self-aggrandizement. It is to help
breast cancer patients. So anything that helps in
spreading the info and improving the treatment (that
is being suggested) is welcome - whether I get credit
or not.
RESPONSE: Help me out here - do medical/scientific papers have to conform to
any formatting standard? For eg. APA, MLA, Chicago, British ? If they do,
then citations, footnotes, bibliography are the norm and the issue of
plagiarism does not arise.

On a more localised level, we have the issue of some people sending news
stories here without the original weblink. That too can be problematic.
We've seen FN post some of his content here using the Creative Commons (CC)
licence which was recently launched at IIT-Mumbai. As I understand, you are
free to copy content published under this licence, but you still have to
include citations.

I think the issue that JoeGoaUK brought to our attention of people
plagiarizing his work is unfortunate. Its a known fact that JoeGoaUK invests
a considerable amount of time in generating those videoclips.

Some of the photos in the links that were provided by Jose Colaco seemed
dubious. But as he himself indicated that is a common location to take a
picture.

- Bosco
Cecil Pinto
2007-03-21 08:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Forgive my ignorance but I'm not quite understanding who stands where on
this thread of plagiarism.

1) Why exactly is Gilbert Lawrence expecting Selma to apologise? What
exactly did she plagiarize?

2) Gilbert Lawrence has also authored a book, "Amchi Khobor - Our News -
Inside Goa". Since there are no references cited I can only assume that the
entire contents of the book are his original work. Will Gilbert please
clarify if the contents of his book are all original? If there are parts
that are quoted from other books or papers why haven't they been given
credit, as is the norm worldwide. Or is there some new trend in publishing
where one can freely quote without mentioning the original sources?

3) Will Fred please clarify if the model which he is propounding allows one
to quote large sections from original sources without giving credit and
thus making it appear as though it was the author's original work?

Cheers!

Cecil
==========
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-22 02:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers - not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of plagiarizing.

This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures. There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened to this impressive presentation.

Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done at other teaching hospitals?
Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the facts he presented?
Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they get their training in the Bahamas?

Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published data?
Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?
Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of which are not your original work?
If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students to use it or would that be plagiarized information?
If one does not want the students to use the facts and information provided, why does one teach?

Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?
If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?
Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the authors' ideas?
Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one cannot use the information gained from the book?

If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount historical events or would that be plagiarized information?
Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have references?

I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers. If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's and my last post. As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified with a response.
Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-25 03:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,

Thank you much for your very studied responses. I read them carefully. I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along. First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text, NOR a listing of references at the end of the presentation.

Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL "research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by whom? Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies? Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me? Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we know why some 'insist' to others on references, while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one provides the reference, is this reference the original source, who deserves the credit?

I am not claiming this presentation on your web blog is wrong or the information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that you are not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a self-righteous moralist preaching to others? I hope this can be my last post on this tet-a-tet. On this Saturday while I am on call, I enjoyed doing some research on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))
Kind Regards, GL
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
12. Inoculations : Assuming that all the immunizations of childhood are completed, immunization is recommended against Tetanus, Polio, Hepatitis A&B. Vaccination should also be considered against Japanese Encephalitis, Typhoid, Cholera and Meningococcal infections. If a stop-over is planned in Africa, the yellow fever vaccine is recommended.

Typhoid fever : is transmitted usually through contaminated food and water (watch the pani-puri). This disease is common and the risk of contracting infection can be lowered by following the food and water precautions listed above. There are two vaccines currently available for the prevention of typhoid fever. The oral vaccine is available in the form of a capsule to be taken every other day for 4 doses. A booster is required every 5 years. The injectable vaccine ViCPS is administered once every two years. It is important to note that the efficacy of the vaccine is not 100% and that the precautions should be followed meticulously.

Cholera : a severe diarrhoeal disease transmitted mainly through contaminated water and food. The strike rate for Goa at this moment is low and once food and water safety precautions are followed, vaccination against cholera becomes 'very optional' unless a trip to the Ganges area is planned.

Hepatitis A : is a viral infection usually transmitted through uncooked food, water, shellfish and ice. The risk for this infection is high. For short-term protection, a dose of Immunoglobulin ( IG ) is recommended. But for a prolonged stay, it is advisable to avail of the vaccination against this disease. There are two vaccines currently recommended : Havrix and Vaqta. Please contact your local physician and seek advice about what is available in your country and what dosage is recommended.

Hepatitis B : is mainly transmitted through sexual activity and upon receiving inadequately screened blood. The incidence of Hepatitis B in India is high and vaccination is strongly recommended. The vaccination schedule should be commenced at least 6 months before the planned departure to India in order to complete the full schedule of immunization. It is important to remember that contact with infected individuals who have open skin lesions, also may result in infection.

Hepatitis E: Like Hepatitis A, this virus is spread through contaminated food or water. It appears to affect adults more than it affects children, and recovery without chronic liver disease is the norm. Fatalities are rare except in women who contract the infection during pregnancy. This infection is endemic in India, though significant infections were not reported in Goa prior to this 2003 outbreak. At this moment, no vaccine is available for prevention of Hepatitis E.

Meningococcal disease : causes a severe infection of the brain. Vaccination is advised particularly if the port of entry is New Delhi. This disease which is more prevalent in the Northern part of India, occurs year around.

Japanese Encephalitis : is more common in rural rice-field areas and occurs mainly during the monsoon season. It causes a severe swelling of the brain called encephalitis. While there is no drug to treat the disease a vaccine JE-VAX is available for the prevention of this disease. There has recently been a serious outbreak of this disease in North Central India. Travelers are advised to either be vaccinated against this disease or avoid the region altogether. At this moment, the risk of contracting this disease in Goa is small.

Vaccination should be seriously considered for individuals planning to reside in the rural areas especially during the monsoon season. The vaccine is administered in 3 doses. Pregnant women and individuals with a history of multiple allergies should not be administered this vaccine.

Leptospirosis: is a bacterial disease associated with wild and domestic animals. It causes severe symptoms including fever, headache, chills, muscle aches, vomiting, jaundice and a rash. It is easily treatable with antibiotics like Penicillin and Doxycycline. It is primarily an occupational disease that affects those whose occupation involves contact with animals, especially rats. Individuals who walk barefoot through infected puddles ( as after monsoon flooding ) are at risk. This condition is found all over the world and visitors to Goa are NOT at special risk of contracting this disease.

13. Paedophilia : Of late, Goa has received some attention, albeit unwelcome, relating to this totally abhorrent crime by tourists against children. Almost every single paedophile identified so far, has been from Europe. If you are a paedophile, please do not practice it in Goa or on Goans. They are virulently opposed to it and have been sensitized to this offence.

Goa is one of the most beautiful places in the world. There are several magnificent churches, temples, waterfalls, beaches, mosques and historical places of interest. However, the part of Goa you will enjoy the most is its people, food and music. No place on earth can truly duplicate the experience of Goa - not now - not ever.

Have a safe flight...a good trip and do let us know, how your trip was.

J.Cola?o, MD
Jose Colaco
2007-03-26 02:21:23 UTC
Permalink
In response to Gilbert Lawrence. Gilbert's points are as 1-10; JC's
response's as JC 1- JC10


On 24/03/07, Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net> wrote:


1: Thank you much for your very studied responses on Goanet on presentations
and publications of medical information. I read them carefully.

JC 1: Grateful and delighted

--

2: I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along.
First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral
presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching
presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

JC 2: I remind you that "research papers' which are READ / PRESENTED at peer
review (Friday) Conferences are considered PUBLISHED. My response was in
direct response to your query as to what we expect our residents to do.

--
3: I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I
read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical
information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the
bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text or a
listing at the end of the presentation.

JC 3: I agree with you. There are NO references. It is there for the
attention of Travelers. It contains exactly the advice I would give & have
given in my private office; knowledge which I am expected to possess because
of my formal education, qualifications and work experience. The issues here
is PLAGIARISM.

Are you suggesting to me that the "stuff'" which is in your AMCHI KHOBOR
booklet (cost $5 plus postage) is NOT plagiarised?

.---

4: Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL
"research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by who?

JC 4: "What findings" are you referring to. Identify them and I will
explain. I am not very good at explaining a vacuum

--

5: Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies?
Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for
the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this
one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me?

JC 5: Please return to the topic of Plagiarism; Back up for research is an
entirely different topic

--

6: Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

JC 6: It is as published as a blog. It is also quite Free. Did you pay for
access?

--

7: And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now
we know why some 'insist' to otehrs on reference, while not doing it
themselves.:=))

JC 7: I disagree with that premise. Please look up the definition of the
word plagiarize. I submit that one does NOT plagiarize if one "credits the
source.

--

8: I am not claiming this presentation on your web site is wrong or the
information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that, you are
not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a
self-righteous moralist preaching to others? This is my last post on this
tet-a-tet.

JC 8: Thanks ....I am normally not accustomed to 'tet-a-tet'; - whatever
that is.

--

9: On this Saturday while I am on call, I really enjoyed doing some research
on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))

JC 9: I am glad for you. One must enjoy something ...after all

--

10: Kind Regards, GL

JC 10: and the same from here ...always, JC
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 15:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh,
you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the
source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we
know why some 'insist' to others on references,
while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one
provides the reference, is this reference the
original source, who deserves the credit?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable
life to deserve this? How can I make a fully grown man
understand the meaning of plagiarism?

Cheers,

Santosh
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-27 12:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

Even that great temple of learning, Wikipedia has a guide on how to
write a good article. Part of that guide is the following link on the
importance of citing sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources

Why do you seem to be defending plagiarism in your fight against
intellectual copyright.

Citing references or sources in no way hinders the sharing of knowledge
but instead vastly improves the 'quality' of information in circulation
and rightly gives credit where it is due. Whether the original authors
were or were not seeking fame or gratification for themselves is
entirely irrelevant to the debate.

Regards
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-27 13:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Plagiarism
An extract from Wikipedia states:
Plagiarism is the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and
thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own
original work. Ergo, it's tantamount to the perceived pilferage of published
products for profit and prominence. Detection can Illwill and Censure
invite..


The proscription against plagiarism is about protecting Ownership and
fostering
Creativity.

Plagiarism is unauthorized use of other's material that belies
The author?s competence and in the face of Originality flies
It smacks of soiled creativity and misplaced enterprise
Overstepping boundaries of propriety with such unfair device
Manifests abject dishonesty the Establishment does despise
As all the desirable merit accruing to such work ignobly dies
The product of an author should be unassailably seminal and wise
Of its purity and integrity, no aspersions and doubts should arise
Powers-that-be judge the work?s value not merely by craft and size
Failing the touchstone test of circumspection, Society will sternly
criticize
After due process, censorious standards of justice the Law will exercise
Thus to many a good reputation, offending pirates have said "Goodbyes"

Stealing intellectual eggs from another's nest, could make you a dubious
Book Club guest.

Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
George Pinto
2007-03-27 16:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable life to deserve this?
How can I make a fully grown man understand the meaning of plagiarism?
Dear Santosh

Gilbert is right. He is referring to "play-ger-rise" and you are referring to plagiarism. I
suspect the vast majority on this forum understand and agree with you, Jose, and Basilio's
definition of plagiarism which was previously provided. I hope any Goan student or academic in the
USA follows your definition of plagiarism to avoid getting in serious trouble. Perhaps the same
rules apply in most other places too.

Gilbert is referring to an entirely different concept (playgerism) whose spelling he mangled. As
Gilbert has correctly clarified, playgerism occurs when a medical student stands in front of a
football audience with a cricket ball and suggests he is a well-known author. When he repeats
himself, this is called self-playgerism.

So now you know the truth.

Regards,
George
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-29 12:24:18 UTC
Permalink
I have to say Frederick is winning this debate hands
down. His arguments are absolutely spot on and he
displays a very profound knowledge about the subject
of plagiarism and its natural by-product copyright.
Frederick's arguments vis-a-vis plagiarism(not intellectual copyright)
miss the mark by a mile. While his arguments might have some merit in
the context of forums such as Goanet or informal write-ups, they fly in
the face of most accepted academic norms.

He is still considering it from the rather naive perspective of "I
would be happy if someone copied my work with or without reference".
Current academic research(which is an inetgral part of human
advancement) would entirely collapse if researchers were to take such a
casual or selfish approach to this serious plague.

Far from profound, his view is from an arm chair perspective.
Go Frederick, go!
I see that you have taken my cheer-leader jibe a tad too seriously.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-30 05:06:08 UTC
Permalink
This debate has little to do with Gilbert's book, Jose's website or
Frederick "wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit".

This is about first understanding the meaning of plagiarism and resisting an
apparent attempt to revise what it means.

FN: let us not pretend that our views are all original, and not influenced
by what we read and hear.

RESPONSE: That explanation will not work in an academic environment. Many
universities now have a position called CIO - Chief Integrity Officer, to
deal with issues of plagiarism, copying, etc. Its a very serious issue.

SC: Yes, I'm sure people plagiarise thoughts, content, ideas, quotes, all
the time and as reprehensible as it is, on an internet forum, it's hardly
liable or of commercial value or of any great significance to anyone other
than the plagiariser's ego.

RESPONSE: In the case of JoeGoaUK and as informed by Jason, the website that
plagiarised JoeGoaUK's original creation (photos) has won some award.
Dismissing plagiarising as lacking significance would be unfair to the one
whose work was plagiarised.

GL: Contrary to what Santosh writes, merely giving the source of information
/ reference does not constitute "authorized use" or permission to plagerize.

RESPONSE: You cannot get permission to plagiarise. You can obtain a
permission to copy/duplicate.

GL: Santosh seeks to apply the same standards to a lay-person bulletin board
or high school and graduate non-fictional publications, in Goa or in USA.

RESPONSE: I tend to agree with SH on this issue. As I said earlier, some
Goanetters send news articles to Goanet without including a weblink to the
source. That can get troublesome when the original creator finds his/her
article on Goanet without a reference. Another reason why Goanet Rules
require only a blurb to be sent to Goanet with a weblink to the entire
article. Some people understand, some do not. I have received messages from
Wikipedia editors requesting permission/compliance for some articles being
lifted from Goanet and pasted directly in Wikipedia without quoting sources.
Those messages were directed to the authors of the articles/posts. It would
be safe to surmise that Wikipedia is concerned about plagiarism too.

GL: Is the absence of the references the deficiency of the author, or is it
the laziness of the reader in failing to further research the facts that is
of interest to them?

RESPONSE: If the author has included exact text from published works, its
"deficiency of the author" (to quote your words).

GL: I have also looked at non-medical non-fictional books in my home
library. None of them had references. I would encourage others to do the
same and check it out for themselves.

RESPONSE: I looked thru my motley collection of books randomly. As far as
most non-fiction books are concerned, they have a Bibliography. I'm looking
at my most recent addition, "India's use of Force in Goa" by "Arthur G.
Rubinoff (thank you Eddie Fernandes for the link) that was published in
1971. The book has a total of 134 pages of which 15 are devoted to the
Bibliography that includes Books, Articles, Periodicals, Pamphlets,
Yearbooks, Cases, Government Documents and Unpublished Material.
P.P. Shirodkar has provided references at the end of each chapter of his
book - Goa's Struggle for Freedom.

- Bosco
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 22:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Copy from one source and it is plagiarism.
Copy from multiple sources and it is research.

Now given all the chest pounding about uprightness,
Would an apology to Selma be forthcoming?
Or is that too much to ask?
Kind Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-21 00:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,

I am surprised that you have not heard / read of this idiom under discussion (see below). But I will be nice and not follow your example and find reasons for your oversight (being polite). Stridency and personalizing a discussion is a poor substitute for well-reasoned arguments. I hope intelligent people can dialogue without getting bent-out-of-shape. So it is time you grow-up and let your writings reflect your skill. A little sense of humor will not hurt.

The thrust of my post was a request for an apology to Selma. And that brings-up an important point about us Goans. We are quick at the draw to accuse, but not to apologize. And this applies to you too, my friend, as I have demonstrated in the past, on many topics.

Now to the issue of plagiarism. My own attitude is: Yes, I agree with you to a point. But do not push your luck too much, as you are wont to do.

It is WELL KNOWN that many use the excuse of plagiarism, including filing law suits, merely to get publicity for themselves and their work. Who would know the accuser's work, if he / she had not used plagiarism as a ruse to display this to us? Others use the threat of plagiarism to suppress other peoples' work. And, as we see on Goanet, to rebut other peoples' argument (Remember Inquisition discussion?:=)).

If somebody copies MY work, I will be very pleased. Because that further expands the message / concepts that I want to spread. My goal of writing a scientific paper (say on breast cancer), is not for self-aggrandizement. It is to help breast cancer patients. So anything that helps in spreading the info and improving the treatment (that is being suggested) is welcome - whether I get credit or not.

It is only an insecure person with little in accomplishments that would waste their time looking for who is doing what to whom. For me I have more important things to work and write on. That is the message I would give other Goans who want to really advance.

No! I am not encouraging people to plagiarize. I am encouraging them to research multiple sources and thoughtfully analyze the material one reads. As I have shown on Goanet, many have the wrong facts or impressions, from their single (or should I say the plagiarized) source.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Santosh Helekar

I am surprised that an educated man is confused about the difference between plagiarism and research. If it is mere confusion or ignorance then one can fault the type of education one has received at home or at the primary school level. But if the apparent moral equivalence between borderline criminal activity and one of the noblest forms of human endeavor, stated above, stems from cynicism, then such an assertion and mindset should be greeted with the utmost condemnation from those who are hoping that our children be better educated.
Copy from one source and it is plagiarism. Copy from multiple sources and it is research.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-21 04:26:40 UTC
Permalink
pla?gia?rism
-noun
1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of
another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

2. something used and represented in this manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If somebody copies MY work, I will be very pleased.
Because that further expands the message / concepts
that I want to spread.
RESPONSE: Gilbert, that's very gracious of you to let others copy your work
but that is not how this issue really works, today, especially from high
school all the way to PhD. Many students have gotten into serious trouble
even for minor infractions at some prestigious schools and there is a fair
amount of air time in the press too. There are utilities out there like
turnitin.com that will help a prof fish you out in a matter of seconds.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
My goal of writing a scientific paper (say on breast
cancer), is not for self-aggrandizement. It is to help
breast cancer patients. So anything that helps in
spreading the info and improving the treatment (that
is being suggested) is welcome - whether I get credit
or not.
RESPONSE: Help me out here - do medical/scientific papers have to conform to
any formatting standard? For eg. APA, MLA, Chicago, British ? If they do,
then citations, footnotes, bibliography are the norm and the issue of
plagiarism does not arise.

On a more localised level, we have the issue of some people sending news
stories here without the original weblink. That too can be problematic.
We've seen FN post some of his content here using the Creative Commons (CC)
licence which was recently launched at IIT-Mumbai. As I understand, you are
free to copy content published under this licence, but you still have to
include citations.

I think the issue that JoeGoaUK brought to our attention of people
plagiarizing his work is unfortunate. Its a known fact that JoeGoaUK invests
a considerable amount of time in generating those videoclips.

Some of the photos in the links that were provided by Jose Colaco seemed
dubious. But as he himself indicated that is a common location to take a
picture.

- Bosco
Cecil Pinto
2007-03-21 08:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Forgive my ignorance but I'm not quite understanding who stands where on
this thread of plagiarism.

1) Why exactly is Gilbert Lawrence expecting Selma to apologise? What
exactly did she plagiarize?

2) Gilbert Lawrence has also authored a book, "Amchi Khobor - Our News -
Inside Goa". Since there are no references cited I can only assume that the
entire contents of the book are his original work. Will Gilbert please
clarify if the contents of his book are all original? If there are parts
that are quoted from other books or papers why haven't they been given
credit, as is the norm worldwide. Or is there some new trend in publishing
where one can freely quote without mentioning the original sources?

3) Will Fred please clarify if the model which he is propounding allows one
to quote large sections from original sources without giving credit and
thus making it appear as though it was the author's original work?

Cheers!

Cecil
==========
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-22 02:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers - not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of plagiarizing.

This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures. There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened to this impressive presentation.

Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done at other teaching hospitals?
Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the facts he presented?
Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they get their training in the Bahamas?

Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published data?
Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?
Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of which are not your original work?
If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students to use it or would that be plagiarized information?
If one does not want the students to use the facts and information provided, why does one teach?

Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?
If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?
Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the authors' ideas?
Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one cannot use the information gained from the book?

If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount historical events or would that be plagiarized information?
Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have references?

I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers. If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's and my last post. As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified with a response.
Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-25 03:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,

Thank you much for your very studied responses. I read them carefully. I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along. First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text, NOR a listing of references at the end of the presentation.

Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL "research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by whom? Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies? Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me? Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we know why some 'insist' to others on references, while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one provides the reference, is this reference the original source, who deserves the credit?

I am not claiming this presentation on your web blog is wrong or the information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that you are not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a self-righteous moralist preaching to others? I hope this can be my last post on this tet-a-tet. On this Saturday while I am on call, I enjoyed doing some research on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))
Kind Regards, GL
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
12. Inoculations : Assuming that all the immunizations of childhood are completed, immunization is recommended against Tetanus, Polio, Hepatitis A&B. Vaccination should also be considered against Japanese Encephalitis, Typhoid, Cholera and Meningococcal infections. If a stop-over is planned in Africa, the yellow fever vaccine is recommended.

Typhoid fever : is transmitted usually through contaminated food and water (watch the pani-puri). This disease is common and the risk of contracting infection can be lowered by following the food and water precautions listed above. There are two vaccines currently available for the prevention of typhoid fever. The oral vaccine is available in the form of a capsule to be taken every other day for 4 doses. A booster is required every 5 years. The injectable vaccine ViCPS is administered once every two years. It is important to note that the efficacy of the vaccine is not 100% and that the precautions should be followed meticulously.

Cholera : a severe diarrhoeal disease transmitted mainly through contaminated water and food. The strike rate for Goa at this moment is low and once food and water safety precautions are followed, vaccination against cholera becomes 'very optional' unless a trip to the Ganges area is planned.

Hepatitis A : is a viral infection usually transmitted through uncooked food, water, shellfish and ice. The risk for this infection is high. For short-term protection, a dose of Immunoglobulin ( IG ) is recommended. But for a prolonged stay, it is advisable to avail of the vaccination against this disease. There are two vaccines currently recommended : Havrix and Vaqta. Please contact your local physician and seek advice about what is available in your country and what dosage is recommended.

Hepatitis B : is mainly transmitted through sexual activity and upon receiving inadequately screened blood. The incidence of Hepatitis B in India is high and vaccination is strongly recommended. The vaccination schedule should be commenced at least 6 months before the planned departure to India in order to complete the full schedule of immunization. It is important to remember that contact with infected individuals who have open skin lesions, also may result in infection.

Hepatitis E: Like Hepatitis A, this virus is spread through contaminated food or water. It appears to affect adults more than it affects children, and recovery without chronic liver disease is the norm. Fatalities are rare except in women who contract the infection during pregnancy. This infection is endemic in India, though significant infections were not reported in Goa prior to this 2003 outbreak. At this moment, no vaccine is available for prevention of Hepatitis E.

Meningococcal disease : causes a severe infection of the brain. Vaccination is advised particularly if the port of entry is New Delhi. This disease which is more prevalent in the Northern part of India, occurs year around.

Japanese Encephalitis : is more common in rural rice-field areas and occurs mainly during the monsoon season. It causes a severe swelling of the brain called encephalitis. While there is no drug to treat the disease a vaccine JE-VAX is available for the prevention of this disease. There has recently been a serious outbreak of this disease in North Central India. Travelers are advised to either be vaccinated against this disease or avoid the region altogether. At this moment, the risk of contracting this disease in Goa is small.

Vaccination should be seriously considered for individuals planning to reside in the rural areas especially during the monsoon season. The vaccine is administered in 3 doses. Pregnant women and individuals with a history of multiple allergies should not be administered this vaccine.

Leptospirosis: is a bacterial disease associated with wild and domestic animals. It causes severe symptoms including fever, headache, chills, muscle aches, vomiting, jaundice and a rash. It is easily treatable with antibiotics like Penicillin and Doxycycline. It is primarily an occupational disease that affects those whose occupation involves contact with animals, especially rats. Individuals who walk barefoot through infected puddles ( as after monsoon flooding ) are at risk. This condition is found all over the world and visitors to Goa are NOT at special risk of contracting this disease.

13. Paedophilia : Of late, Goa has received some attention, albeit unwelcome, relating to this totally abhorrent crime by tourists against children. Almost every single paedophile identified so far, has been from Europe. If you are a paedophile, please do not practice it in Goa or on Goans. They are virulently opposed to it and have been sensitized to this offence.

Goa is one of the most beautiful places in the world. There are several magnificent churches, temples, waterfalls, beaches, mosques and historical places of interest. However, the part of Goa you will enjoy the most is its people, food and music. No place on earth can truly duplicate the experience of Goa - not now - not ever.

Have a safe flight...a good trip and do let us know, how your trip was.

J.Cola?o, MD
Jose Colaco
2007-03-26 02:21:23 UTC
Permalink
In response to Gilbert Lawrence. Gilbert's points are as 1-10; JC's
response's as JC 1- JC10


On 24/03/07, Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net> wrote:


1: Thank you much for your very studied responses on Goanet on presentations
and publications of medical information. I read them carefully.

JC 1: Grateful and delighted

--

2: I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along.
First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral
presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching
presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

JC 2: I remind you that "research papers' which are READ / PRESENTED at peer
review (Friday) Conferences are considered PUBLISHED. My response was in
direct response to your query as to what we expect our residents to do.

--
3: I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I
read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical
information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the
bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text or a
listing at the end of the presentation.

JC 3: I agree with you. There are NO references. It is there for the
attention of Travelers. It contains exactly the advice I would give & have
given in my private office; knowledge which I am expected to possess because
of my formal education, qualifications and work experience. The issues here
is PLAGIARISM.

Are you suggesting to me that the "stuff'" which is in your AMCHI KHOBOR
booklet (cost $5 plus postage) is NOT plagiarised?

.---

4: Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL
"research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by who?

JC 4: "What findings" are you referring to. Identify them and I will
explain. I am not very good at explaining a vacuum

--

5: Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies?
Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for
the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this
one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me?

JC 5: Please return to the topic of Plagiarism; Back up for research is an
entirely different topic

--

6: Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

JC 6: It is as published as a blog. It is also quite Free. Did you pay for
access?

--

7: And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now
we know why some 'insist' to otehrs on reference, while not doing it
themselves.:=))

JC 7: I disagree with that premise. Please look up the definition of the
word plagiarize. I submit that one does NOT plagiarize if one "credits the
source.

--

8: I am not claiming this presentation on your web site is wrong or the
information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that, you are
not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a
self-righteous moralist preaching to others? This is my last post on this
tet-a-tet.

JC 8: Thanks ....I am normally not accustomed to 'tet-a-tet'; - whatever
that is.

--

9: On this Saturday while I am on call, I really enjoyed doing some research
on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))

JC 9: I am glad for you. One must enjoy something ...after all

--

10: Kind Regards, GL

JC 10: and the same from here ...always, JC
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 15:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh,
you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the
source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we
know why some 'insist' to others on references,
while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one
provides the reference, is this reference the
original source, who deserves the credit?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable
life to deserve this? How can I make a fully grown man
understand the meaning of plagiarism?

Cheers,

Santosh
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-27 12:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

Even that great temple of learning, Wikipedia has a guide on how to
write a good article. Part of that guide is the following link on the
importance of citing sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources

Why do you seem to be defending plagiarism in your fight against
intellectual copyright.

Citing references or sources in no way hinders the sharing of knowledge
but instead vastly improves the 'quality' of information in circulation
and rightly gives credit where it is due. Whether the original authors
were or were not seeking fame or gratification for themselves is
entirely irrelevant to the debate.

Regards
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-27 13:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Plagiarism
An extract from Wikipedia states:
Plagiarism is the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and
thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own
original work. Ergo, it's tantamount to the perceived pilferage of published
products for profit and prominence. Detection can Illwill and Censure
invite..


The proscription against plagiarism is about protecting Ownership and
fostering
Creativity.

Plagiarism is unauthorized use of other's material that belies
The author?s competence and in the face of Originality flies
It smacks of soiled creativity and misplaced enterprise
Overstepping boundaries of propriety with such unfair device
Manifests abject dishonesty the Establishment does despise
As all the desirable merit accruing to such work ignobly dies
The product of an author should be unassailably seminal and wise
Of its purity and integrity, no aspersions and doubts should arise
Powers-that-be judge the work?s value not merely by craft and size
Failing the touchstone test of circumspection, Society will sternly
criticize
After due process, censorious standards of justice the Law will exercise
Thus to many a good reputation, offending pirates have said "Goodbyes"

Stealing intellectual eggs from another's nest, could make you a dubious
Book Club guest.

Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
George Pinto
2007-03-27 16:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable life to deserve this?
How can I make a fully grown man understand the meaning of plagiarism?
Dear Santosh

Gilbert is right. He is referring to "play-ger-rise" and you are referring to plagiarism. I
suspect the vast majority on this forum understand and agree with you, Jose, and Basilio's
definition of plagiarism which was previously provided. I hope any Goan student or academic in the
USA follows your definition of plagiarism to avoid getting in serious trouble. Perhaps the same
rules apply in most other places too.

Gilbert is referring to an entirely different concept (playgerism) whose spelling he mangled. As
Gilbert has correctly clarified, playgerism occurs when a medical student stands in front of a
football audience with a cricket ball and suggests he is a well-known author. When he repeats
himself, this is called self-playgerism.

So now you know the truth.

Regards,
George
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-29 12:24:18 UTC
Permalink
I have to say Frederick is winning this debate hands
down. His arguments are absolutely spot on and he
displays a very profound knowledge about the subject
of plagiarism and its natural by-product copyright.
Frederick's arguments vis-a-vis plagiarism(not intellectual copyright)
miss the mark by a mile. While his arguments might have some merit in
the context of forums such as Goanet or informal write-ups, they fly in
the face of most accepted academic norms.

He is still considering it from the rather naive perspective of "I
would be happy if someone copied my work with or without reference".
Current academic research(which is an inetgral part of human
advancement) would entirely collapse if researchers were to take such a
casual or selfish approach to this serious plague.

Far from profound, his view is from an arm chair perspective.
Go Frederick, go!
I see that you have taken my cheer-leader jibe a tad too seriously.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-30 05:06:08 UTC
Permalink
This debate has little to do with Gilbert's book, Jose's website or
Frederick "wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit".

This is about first understanding the meaning of plagiarism and resisting an
apparent attempt to revise what it means.

FN: let us not pretend that our views are all original, and not influenced
by what we read and hear.

RESPONSE: That explanation will not work in an academic environment. Many
universities now have a position called CIO - Chief Integrity Officer, to
deal with issues of plagiarism, copying, etc. Its a very serious issue.

SC: Yes, I'm sure people plagiarise thoughts, content, ideas, quotes, all
the time and as reprehensible as it is, on an internet forum, it's hardly
liable or of commercial value or of any great significance to anyone other
than the plagiariser's ego.

RESPONSE: In the case of JoeGoaUK and as informed by Jason, the website that
plagiarised JoeGoaUK's original creation (photos) has won some award.
Dismissing plagiarising as lacking significance would be unfair to the one
whose work was plagiarised.

GL: Contrary to what Santosh writes, merely giving the source of information
/ reference does not constitute "authorized use" or permission to plagerize.

RESPONSE: You cannot get permission to plagiarise. You can obtain a
permission to copy/duplicate.

GL: Santosh seeks to apply the same standards to a lay-person bulletin board
or high school and graduate non-fictional publications, in Goa or in USA.

RESPONSE: I tend to agree with SH on this issue. As I said earlier, some
Goanetters send news articles to Goanet without including a weblink to the
source. That can get troublesome when the original creator finds his/her
article on Goanet without a reference. Another reason why Goanet Rules
require only a blurb to be sent to Goanet with a weblink to the entire
article. Some people understand, some do not. I have received messages from
Wikipedia editors requesting permission/compliance for some articles being
lifted from Goanet and pasted directly in Wikipedia without quoting sources.
Those messages were directed to the authors of the articles/posts. It would
be safe to surmise that Wikipedia is concerned about plagiarism too.

GL: Is the absence of the references the deficiency of the author, or is it
the laziness of the reader in failing to further research the facts that is
of interest to them?

RESPONSE: If the author has included exact text from published works, its
"deficiency of the author" (to quote your words).

GL: I have also looked at non-medical non-fictional books in my home
library. None of them had references. I would encourage others to do the
same and check it out for themselves.

RESPONSE: I looked thru my motley collection of books randomly. As far as
most non-fiction books are concerned, they have a Bibliography. I'm looking
at my most recent addition, "India's use of Force in Goa" by "Arthur G.
Rubinoff (thank you Eddie Fernandes for the link) that was published in
1971. The book has a total of 134 pages of which 15 are devoted to the
Bibliography that includes Books, Articles, Periodicals, Pamphlets,
Yearbooks, Cases, Government Documents and Unpublished Material.
P.P. Shirodkar has provided references at the end of each chapter of his
book - Goa's Struggle for Freedom.

- Bosco
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 22:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Copy from one source and it is plagiarism.
Copy from multiple sources and it is research.

Now given all the chest pounding about uprightness,
Would an apology to Selma be forthcoming?
Or is that too much to ask?
Kind Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-21 00:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,

I am surprised that you have not heard / read of this idiom under discussion (see below). But I will be nice and not follow your example and find reasons for your oversight (being polite). Stridency and personalizing a discussion is a poor substitute for well-reasoned arguments. I hope intelligent people can dialogue without getting bent-out-of-shape. So it is time you grow-up and let your writings reflect your skill. A little sense of humor will not hurt.

The thrust of my post was a request for an apology to Selma. And that brings-up an important point about us Goans. We are quick at the draw to accuse, but not to apologize. And this applies to you too, my friend, as I have demonstrated in the past, on many topics.

Now to the issue of plagiarism. My own attitude is: Yes, I agree with you to a point. But do not push your luck too much, as you are wont to do.

It is WELL KNOWN that many use the excuse of plagiarism, including filing law suits, merely to get publicity for themselves and their work. Who would know the accuser's work, if he / she had not used plagiarism as a ruse to display this to us? Others use the threat of plagiarism to suppress other peoples' work. And, as we see on Goanet, to rebut other peoples' argument (Remember Inquisition discussion?:=)).

If somebody copies MY work, I will be very pleased. Because that further expands the message / concepts that I want to spread. My goal of writing a scientific paper (say on breast cancer), is not for self-aggrandizement. It is to help breast cancer patients. So anything that helps in spreading the info and improving the treatment (that is being suggested) is welcome - whether I get credit or not.

It is only an insecure person with little in accomplishments that would waste their time looking for who is doing what to whom. For me I have more important things to work and write on. That is the message I would give other Goans who want to really advance.

No! I am not encouraging people to plagiarize. I am encouraging them to research multiple sources and thoughtfully analyze the material one reads. As I have shown on Goanet, many have the wrong facts or impressions, from their single (or should I say the plagiarized) source.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Santosh Helekar

I am surprised that an educated man is confused about the difference between plagiarism and research. If it is mere confusion or ignorance then one can fault the type of education one has received at home or at the primary school level. But if the apparent moral equivalence between borderline criminal activity and one of the noblest forms of human endeavor, stated above, stems from cynicism, then such an assertion and mindset should be greeted with the utmost condemnation from those who are hoping that our children be better educated.
Copy from one source and it is plagiarism. Copy from multiple sources and it is research.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-21 04:26:40 UTC
Permalink
pla?gia?rism
-noun
1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of
another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

2. something used and represented in this manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If somebody copies MY work, I will be very pleased.
Because that further expands the message / concepts
that I want to spread.
RESPONSE: Gilbert, that's very gracious of you to let others copy your work
but that is not how this issue really works, today, especially from high
school all the way to PhD. Many students have gotten into serious trouble
even for minor infractions at some prestigious schools and there is a fair
amount of air time in the press too. There are utilities out there like
turnitin.com that will help a prof fish you out in a matter of seconds.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
My goal of writing a scientific paper (say on breast
cancer), is not for self-aggrandizement. It is to help
breast cancer patients. So anything that helps in
spreading the info and improving the treatment (that
is being suggested) is welcome - whether I get credit
or not.
RESPONSE: Help me out here - do medical/scientific papers have to conform to
any formatting standard? For eg. APA, MLA, Chicago, British ? If they do,
then citations, footnotes, bibliography are the norm and the issue of
plagiarism does not arise.

On a more localised level, we have the issue of some people sending news
stories here without the original weblink. That too can be problematic.
We've seen FN post some of his content here using the Creative Commons (CC)
licence which was recently launched at IIT-Mumbai. As I understand, you are
free to copy content published under this licence, but you still have to
include citations.

I think the issue that JoeGoaUK brought to our attention of people
plagiarizing his work is unfortunate. Its a known fact that JoeGoaUK invests
a considerable amount of time in generating those videoclips.

Some of the photos in the links that were provided by Jose Colaco seemed
dubious. But as he himself indicated that is a common location to take a
picture.

- Bosco
Cecil Pinto
2007-03-21 08:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Forgive my ignorance but I'm not quite understanding who stands where on
this thread of plagiarism.

1) Why exactly is Gilbert Lawrence expecting Selma to apologise? What
exactly did she plagiarize?

2) Gilbert Lawrence has also authored a book, "Amchi Khobor - Our News -
Inside Goa". Since there are no references cited I can only assume that the
entire contents of the book are his original work. Will Gilbert please
clarify if the contents of his book are all original? If there are parts
that are quoted from other books or papers why haven't they been given
credit, as is the norm worldwide. Or is there some new trend in publishing
where one can freely quote without mentioning the original sources?

3) Will Fred please clarify if the model which he is propounding allows one
to quote large sections from original sources without giving credit and
thus making it appear as though it was the author's original work?

Cheers!

Cecil
==========
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-22 02:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers - not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of plagiarizing.

This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures. There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened to this impressive presentation.

Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done at other teaching hospitals?
Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the facts he presented?
Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they get their training in the Bahamas?

Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published data?
Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?
Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of which are not your original work?
If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students to use it or would that be plagiarized information?
If one does not want the students to use the facts and information provided, why does one teach?

Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?
If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?
Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the authors' ideas?
Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one cannot use the information gained from the book?

If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount historical events or would that be plagiarized information?
Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have references?

I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers. If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's and my last post. As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified with a response.
Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-25 03:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,

Thank you much for your very studied responses. I read them carefully. I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along. First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text, NOR a listing of references at the end of the presentation.

Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL "research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by whom? Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies? Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me? Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we know why some 'insist' to others on references, while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one provides the reference, is this reference the original source, who deserves the credit?

I am not claiming this presentation on your web blog is wrong or the information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that you are not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a self-righteous moralist preaching to others? I hope this can be my last post on this tet-a-tet. On this Saturday while I am on call, I enjoyed doing some research on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))
Kind Regards, GL
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
12. Inoculations : Assuming that all the immunizations of childhood are completed, immunization is recommended against Tetanus, Polio, Hepatitis A&B. Vaccination should also be considered against Japanese Encephalitis, Typhoid, Cholera and Meningococcal infections. If a stop-over is planned in Africa, the yellow fever vaccine is recommended.

Typhoid fever : is transmitted usually through contaminated food and water (watch the pani-puri). This disease is common and the risk of contracting infection can be lowered by following the food and water precautions listed above. There are two vaccines currently available for the prevention of typhoid fever. The oral vaccine is available in the form of a capsule to be taken every other day for 4 doses. A booster is required every 5 years. The injectable vaccine ViCPS is administered once every two years. It is important to note that the efficacy of the vaccine is not 100% and that the precautions should be followed meticulously.

Cholera : a severe diarrhoeal disease transmitted mainly through contaminated water and food. The strike rate for Goa at this moment is low and once food and water safety precautions are followed, vaccination against cholera becomes 'very optional' unless a trip to the Ganges area is planned.

Hepatitis A : is a viral infection usually transmitted through uncooked food, water, shellfish and ice. The risk for this infection is high. For short-term protection, a dose of Immunoglobulin ( IG ) is recommended. But for a prolonged stay, it is advisable to avail of the vaccination against this disease. There are two vaccines currently recommended : Havrix and Vaqta. Please contact your local physician and seek advice about what is available in your country and what dosage is recommended.

Hepatitis B : is mainly transmitted through sexual activity and upon receiving inadequately screened blood. The incidence of Hepatitis B in India is high and vaccination is strongly recommended. The vaccination schedule should be commenced at least 6 months before the planned departure to India in order to complete the full schedule of immunization. It is important to remember that contact with infected individuals who have open skin lesions, also may result in infection.

Hepatitis E: Like Hepatitis A, this virus is spread through contaminated food or water. It appears to affect adults more than it affects children, and recovery without chronic liver disease is the norm. Fatalities are rare except in women who contract the infection during pregnancy. This infection is endemic in India, though significant infections were not reported in Goa prior to this 2003 outbreak. At this moment, no vaccine is available for prevention of Hepatitis E.

Meningococcal disease : causes a severe infection of the brain. Vaccination is advised particularly if the port of entry is New Delhi. This disease which is more prevalent in the Northern part of India, occurs year around.

Japanese Encephalitis : is more common in rural rice-field areas and occurs mainly during the monsoon season. It causes a severe swelling of the brain called encephalitis. While there is no drug to treat the disease a vaccine JE-VAX is available for the prevention of this disease. There has recently been a serious outbreak of this disease in North Central India. Travelers are advised to either be vaccinated against this disease or avoid the region altogether. At this moment, the risk of contracting this disease in Goa is small.

Vaccination should be seriously considered for individuals planning to reside in the rural areas especially during the monsoon season. The vaccine is administered in 3 doses. Pregnant women and individuals with a history of multiple allergies should not be administered this vaccine.

Leptospirosis: is a bacterial disease associated with wild and domestic animals. It causes severe symptoms including fever, headache, chills, muscle aches, vomiting, jaundice and a rash. It is easily treatable with antibiotics like Penicillin and Doxycycline. It is primarily an occupational disease that affects those whose occupation involves contact with animals, especially rats. Individuals who walk barefoot through infected puddles ( as after monsoon flooding ) are at risk. This condition is found all over the world and visitors to Goa are NOT at special risk of contracting this disease.

13. Paedophilia : Of late, Goa has received some attention, albeit unwelcome, relating to this totally abhorrent crime by tourists against children. Almost every single paedophile identified so far, has been from Europe. If you are a paedophile, please do not practice it in Goa or on Goans. They are virulently opposed to it and have been sensitized to this offence.

Goa is one of the most beautiful places in the world. There are several magnificent churches, temples, waterfalls, beaches, mosques and historical places of interest. However, the part of Goa you will enjoy the most is its people, food and music. No place on earth can truly duplicate the experience of Goa - not now - not ever.

Have a safe flight...a good trip and do let us know, how your trip was.

J.Cola?o, MD
Jose Colaco
2007-03-26 02:21:23 UTC
Permalink
In response to Gilbert Lawrence. Gilbert's points are as 1-10; JC's
response's as JC 1- JC10


On 24/03/07, Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net> wrote:


1: Thank you much for your very studied responses on Goanet on presentations
and publications of medical information. I read them carefully.

JC 1: Grateful and delighted

--

2: I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along.
First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral
presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching
presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

JC 2: I remind you that "research papers' which are READ / PRESENTED at peer
review (Friday) Conferences are considered PUBLISHED. My response was in
direct response to your query as to what we expect our residents to do.

--
3: I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I
read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical
information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the
bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text or a
listing at the end of the presentation.

JC 3: I agree with you. There are NO references. It is there for the
attention of Travelers. It contains exactly the advice I would give & have
given in my private office; knowledge which I am expected to possess because
of my formal education, qualifications and work experience. The issues here
is PLAGIARISM.

Are you suggesting to me that the "stuff'" which is in your AMCHI KHOBOR
booklet (cost $5 plus postage) is NOT plagiarised?

.---

4: Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL
"research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by who?

JC 4: "What findings" are you referring to. Identify them and I will
explain. I am not very good at explaining a vacuum

--

5: Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies?
Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for
the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this
one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me?

JC 5: Please return to the topic of Plagiarism; Back up for research is an
entirely different topic

--

6: Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

JC 6: It is as published as a blog. It is also quite Free. Did you pay for
access?

--

7: And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now
we know why some 'insist' to otehrs on reference, while not doing it
themselves.:=))

JC 7: I disagree with that premise. Please look up the definition of the
word plagiarize. I submit that one does NOT plagiarize if one "credits the
source.

--

8: I am not claiming this presentation on your web site is wrong or the
information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that, you are
not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a
self-righteous moralist preaching to others? This is my last post on this
tet-a-tet.

JC 8: Thanks ....I am normally not accustomed to 'tet-a-tet'; - whatever
that is.

--

9: On this Saturday while I am on call, I really enjoyed doing some research
on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))

JC 9: I am glad for you. One must enjoy something ...after all

--

10: Kind Regards, GL

JC 10: and the same from here ...always, JC
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 15:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh,
you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the
source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we
know why some 'insist' to others on references,
while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one
provides the reference, is this reference the
original source, who deserves the credit?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable
life to deserve this? How can I make a fully grown man
understand the meaning of plagiarism?

Cheers,

Santosh
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-27 12:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

Even that great temple of learning, Wikipedia has a guide on how to
write a good article. Part of that guide is the following link on the
importance of citing sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources

Why do you seem to be defending plagiarism in your fight against
intellectual copyright.

Citing references or sources in no way hinders the sharing of knowledge
but instead vastly improves the 'quality' of information in circulation
and rightly gives credit where it is due. Whether the original authors
were or were not seeking fame or gratification for themselves is
entirely irrelevant to the debate.

Regards
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-27 13:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Plagiarism
An extract from Wikipedia states:
Plagiarism is the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and
thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own
original work. Ergo, it's tantamount to the perceived pilferage of published
products for profit and prominence. Detection can Illwill and Censure
invite..


The proscription against plagiarism is about protecting Ownership and
fostering
Creativity.

Plagiarism is unauthorized use of other's material that belies
The author?s competence and in the face of Originality flies
It smacks of soiled creativity and misplaced enterprise
Overstepping boundaries of propriety with such unfair device
Manifests abject dishonesty the Establishment does despise
As all the desirable merit accruing to such work ignobly dies
The product of an author should be unassailably seminal and wise
Of its purity and integrity, no aspersions and doubts should arise
Powers-that-be judge the work?s value not merely by craft and size
Failing the touchstone test of circumspection, Society will sternly
criticize
After due process, censorious standards of justice the Law will exercise
Thus to many a good reputation, offending pirates have said "Goodbyes"

Stealing intellectual eggs from another's nest, could make you a dubious
Book Club guest.

Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
George Pinto
2007-03-27 16:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable life to deserve this?
How can I make a fully grown man understand the meaning of plagiarism?
Dear Santosh

Gilbert is right. He is referring to "play-ger-rise" and you are referring to plagiarism. I
suspect the vast majority on this forum understand and agree with you, Jose, and Basilio's
definition of plagiarism which was previously provided. I hope any Goan student or academic in the
USA follows your definition of plagiarism to avoid getting in serious trouble. Perhaps the same
rules apply in most other places too.

Gilbert is referring to an entirely different concept (playgerism) whose spelling he mangled. As
Gilbert has correctly clarified, playgerism occurs when a medical student stands in front of a
football audience with a cricket ball and suggests he is a well-known author. When he repeats
himself, this is called self-playgerism.

So now you know the truth.

Regards,
George
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-29 12:24:18 UTC
Permalink
I have to say Frederick is winning this debate hands
down. His arguments are absolutely spot on and he
displays a very profound knowledge about the subject
of plagiarism and its natural by-product copyright.
Frederick's arguments vis-a-vis plagiarism(not intellectual copyright)
miss the mark by a mile. While his arguments might have some merit in
the context of forums such as Goanet or informal write-ups, they fly in
the face of most accepted academic norms.

He is still considering it from the rather naive perspective of "I
would be happy if someone copied my work with or without reference".
Current academic research(which is an inetgral part of human
advancement) would entirely collapse if researchers were to take such a
casual or selfish approach to this serious plague.

Far from profound, his view is from an arm chair perspective.
Go Frederick, go!
I see that you have taken my cheer-leader jibe a tad too seriously.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-30 05:06:08 UTC
Permalink
This debate has little to do with Gilbert's book, Jose's website or
Frederick "wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit".

This is about first understanding the meaning of plagiarism and resisting an
apparent attempt to revise what it means.

FN: let us not pretend that our views are all original, and not influenced
by what we read and hear.

RESPONSE: That explanation will not work in an academic environment. Many
universities now have a position called CIO - Chief Integrity Officer, to
deal with issues of plagiarism, copying, etc. Its a very serious issue.

SC: Yes, I'm sure people plagiarise thoughts, content, ideas, quotes, all
the time and as reprehensible as it is, on an internet forum, it's hardly
liable or of commercial value or of any great significance to anyone other
than the plagiariser's ego.

RESPONSE: In the case of JoeGoaUK and as informed by Jason, the website that
plagiarised JoeGoaUK's original creation (photos) has won some award.
Dismissing plagiarising as lacking significance would be unfair to the one
whose work was plagiarised.

GL: Contrary to what Santosh writes, merely giving the source of information
/ reference does not constitute "authorized use" or permission to plagerize.

RESPONSE: You cannot get permission to plagiarise. You can obtain a
permission to copy/duplicate.

GL: Santosh seeks to apply the same standards to a lay-person bulletin board
or high school and graduate non-fictional publications, in Goa or in USA.

RESPONSE: I tend to agree with SH on this issue. As I said earlier, some
Goanetters send news articles to Goanet without including a weblink to the
source. That can get troublesome when the original creator finds his/her
article on Goanet without a reference. Another reason why Goanet Rules
require only a blurb to be sent to Goanet with a weblink to the entire
article. Some people understand, some do not. I have received messages from
Wikipedia editors requesting permission/compliance for some articles being
lifted from Goanet and pasted directly in Wikipedia without quoting sources.
Those messages were directed to the authors of the articles/posts. It would
be safe to surmise that Wikipedia is concerned about plagiarism too.

GL: Is the absence of the references the deficiency of the author, or is it
the laziness of the reader in failing to further research the facts that is
of interest to them?

RESPONSE: If the author has included exact text from published works, its
"deficiency of the author" (to quote your words).

GL: I have also looked at non-medical non-fictional books in my home
library. None of them had references. I would encourage others to do the
same and check it out for themselves.

RESPONSE: I looked thru my motley collection of books randomly. As far as
most non-fiction books are concerned, they have a Bibliography. I'm looking
at my most recent addition, "India's use of Force in Goa" by "Arthur G.
Rubinoff (thank you Eddie Fernandes for the link) that was published in
1971. The book has a total of 134 pages of which 15 are devoted to the
Bibliography that includes Books, Articles, Periodicals, Pamphlets,
Yearbooks, Cases, Government Documents and Unpublished Material.
P.P. Shirodkar has provided references at the end of each chapter of his
book - Goa's Struggle for Freedom.

- Bosco
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 22:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Copy from one source and it is plagiarism.
Copy from multiple sources and it is research.

Now given all the chest pounding about uprightness,
Would an apology to Selma be forthcoming?
Or is that too much to ask?
Kind Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-21 00:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,

I am surprised that you have not heard / read of this idiom under discussion (see below). But I will be nice and not follow your example and find reasons for your oversight (being polite). Stridency and personalizing a discussion is a poor substitute for well-reasoned arguments. I hope intelligent people can dialogue without getting bent-out-of-shape. So it is time you grow-up and let your writings reflect your skill. A little sense of humor will not hurt.

The thrust of my post was a request for an apology to Selma. And that brings-up an important point about us Goans. We are quick at the draw to accuse, but not to apologize. And this applies to you too, my friend, as I have demonstrated in the past, on many topics.

Now to the issue of plagiarism. My own attitude is: Yes, I agree with you to a point. But do not push your luck too much, as you are wont to do.

It is WELL KNOWN that many use the excuse of plagiarism, including filing law suits, merely to get publicity for themselves and their work. Who would know the accuser's work, if he / she had not used plagiarism as a ruse to display this to us? Others use the threat of plagiarism to suppress other peoples' work. And, as we see on Goanet, to rebut other peoples' argument (Remember Inquisition discussion?:=)).

If somebody copies MY work, I will be very pleased. Because that further expands the message / concepts that I want to spread. My goal of writing a scientific paper (say on breast cancer), is not for self-aggrandizement. It is to help breast cancer patients. So anything that helps in spreading the info and improving the treatment (that is being suggested) is welcome - whether I get credit or not.

It is only an insecure person with little in accomplishments that would waste their time looking for who is doing what to whom. For me I have more important things to work and write on. That is the message I would give other Goans who want to really advance.

No! I am not encouraging people to plagiarize. I am encouraging them to research multiple sources and thoughtfully analyze the material one reads. As I have shown on Goanet, many have the wrong facts or impressions, from their single (or should I say the plagiarized) source.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Santosh Helekar

I am surprised that an educated man is confused about the difference between plagiarism and research. If it is mere confusion or ignorance then one can fault the type of education one has received at home or at the primary school level. But if the apparent moral equivalence between borderline criminal activity and one of the noblest forms of human endeavor, stated above, stems from cynicism, then such an assertion and mindset should be greeted with the utmost condemnation from those who are hoping that our children be better educated.
Copy from one source and it is plagiarism. Copy from multiple sources and it is research.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-21 04:26:40 UTC
Permalink
pla?gia?rism
-noun
1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of
another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

2. something used and represented in this manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If somebody copies MY work, I will be very pleased.
Because that further expands the message / concepts
that I want to spread.
RESPONSE: Gilbert, that's very gracious of you to let others copy your work
but that is not how this issue really works, today, especially from high
school all the way to PhD. Many students have gotten into serious trouble
even for minor infractions at some prestigious schools and there is a fair
amount of air time in the press too. There are utilities out there like
turnitin.com that will help a prof fish you out in a matter of seconds.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
My goal of writing a scientific paper (say on breast
cancer), is not for self-aggrandizement. It is to help
breast cancer patients. So anything that helps in
spreading the info and improving the treatment (that
is being suggested) is welcome - whether I get credit
or not.
RESPONSE: Help me out here - do medical/scientific papers have to conform to
any formatting standard? For eg. APA, MLA, Chicago, British ? If they do,
then citations, footnotes, bibliography are the norm and the issue of
plagiarism does not arise.

On a more localised level, we have the issue of some people sending news
stories here without the original weblink. That too can be problematic.
We've seen FN post some of his content here using the Creative Commons (CC)
licence which was recently launched at IIT-Mumbai. As I understand, you are
free to copy content published under this licence, but you still have to
include citations.

I think the issue that JoeGoaUK brought to our attention of people
plagiarizing his work is unfortunate. Its a known fact that JoeGoaUK invests
a considerable amount of time in generating those videoclips.

Some of the photos in the links that were provided by Jose Colaco seemed
dubious. But as he himself indicated that is a common location to take a
picture.

- Bosco
Cecil Pinto
2007-03-21 08:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Forgive my ignorance but I'm not quite understanding who stands where on
this thread of plagiarism.

1) Why exactly is Gilbert Lawrence expecting Selma to apologise? What
exactly did she plagiarize?

2) Gilbert Lawrence has also authored a book, "Amchi Khobor - Our News -
Inside Goa". Since there are no references cited I can only assume that the
entire contents of the book are his original work. Will Gilbert please
clarify if the contents of his book are all original? If there are parts
that are quoted from other books or papers why haven't they been given
credit, as is the norm worldwide. Or is there some new trend in publishing
where one can freely quote without mentioning the original sources?

3) Will Fred please clarify if the model which he is propounding allows one
to quote large sections from original sources without giving credit and
thus making it appear as though it was the author's original work?

Cheers!

Cecil
==========
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-22 02:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers - not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of plagiarizing.

This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures. There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened to this impressive presentation.

Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done at other teaching hospitals?
Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the facts he presented?
Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they get their training in the Bahamas?

Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published data?
Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?
Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of which are not your original work?
If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students to use it or would that be plagiarized information?
If one does not want the students to use the facts and information provided, why does one teach?

Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?
If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?
Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the authors' ideas?
Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one cannot use the information gained from the book?

If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount historical events or would that be plagiarized information?
Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have references?

I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers. If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's and my last post. As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified with a response.
Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-25 03:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,

Thank you much for your very studied responses. I read them carefully. I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along. First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text, NOR a listing of references at the end of the presentation.

Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL "research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by whom? Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies? Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me? Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we know why some 'insist' to others on references, while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one provides the reference, is this reference the original source, who deserves the credit?

I am not claiming this presentation on your web blog is wrong or the information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that you are not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a self-righteous moralist preaching to others? I hope this can be my last post on this tet-a-tet. On this Saturday while I am on call, I enjoyed doing some research on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))
Kind Regards, GL
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
12. Inoculations : Assuming that all the immunizations of childhood are completed, immunization is recommended against Tetanus, Polio, Hepatitis A&B. Vaccination should also be considered against Japanese Encephalitis, Typhoid, Cholera and Meningococcal infections. If a stop-over is planned in Africa, the yellow fever vaccine is recommended.

Typhoid fever : is transmitted usually through contaminated food and water (watch the pani-puri). This disease is common and the risk of contracting infection can be lowered by following the food and water precautions listed above. There are two vaccines currently available for the prevention of typhoid fever. The oral vaccine is available in the form of a capsule to be taken every other day for 4 doses. A booster is required every 5 years. The injectable vaccine ViCPS is administered once every two years. It is important to note that the efficacy of the vaccine is not 100% and that the precautions should be followed meticulously.

Cholera : a severe diarrhoeal disease transmitted mainly through contaminated water and food. The strike rate for Goa at this moment is low and once food and water safety precautions are followed, vaccination against cholera becomes 'very optional' unless a trip to the Ganges area is planned.

Hepatitis A : is a viral infection usually transmitted through uncooked food, water, shellfish and ice. The risk for this infection is high. For short-term protection, a dose of Immunoglobulin ( IG ) is recommended. But for a prolonged stay, it is advisable to avail of the vaccination against this disease. There are two vaccines currently recommended : Havrix and Vaqta. Please contact your local physician and seek advice about what is available in your country and what dosage is recommended.

Hepatitis B : is mainly transmitted through sexual activity and upon receiving inadequately screened blood. The incidence of Hepatitis B in India is high and vaccination is strongly recommended. The vaccination schedule should be commenced at least 6 months before the planned departure to India in order to complete the full schedule of immunization. It is important to remember that contact with infected individuals who have open skin lesions, also may result in infection.

Hepatitis E: Like Hepatitis A, this virus is spread through contaminated food or water. It appears to affect adults more than it affects children, and recovery without chronic liver disease is the norm. Fatalities are rare except in women who contract the infection during pregnancy. This infection is endemic in India, though significant infections were not reported in Goa prior to this 2003 outbreak. At this moment, no vaccine is available for prevention of Hepatitis E.

Meningococcal disease : causes a severe infection of the brain. Vaccination is advised particularly if the port of entry is New Delhi. This disease which is more prevalent in the Northern part of India, occurs year around.

Japanese Encephalitis : is more common in rural rice-field areas and occurs mainly during the monsoon season. It causes a severe swelling of the brain called encephalitis. While there is no drug to treat the disease a vaccine JE-VAX is available for the prevention of this disease. There has recently been a serious outbreak of this disease in North Central India. Travelers are advised to either be vaccinated against this disease or avoid the region altogether. At this moment, the risk of contracting this disease in Goa is small.

Vaccination should be seriously considered for individuals planning to reside in the rural areas especially during the monsoon season. The vaccine is administered in 3 doses. Pregnant women and individuals with a history of multiple allergies should not be administered this vaccine.

Leptospirosis: is a bacterial disease associated with wild and domestic animals. It causes severe symptoms including fever, headache, chills, muscle aches, vomiting, jaundice and a rash. It is easily treatable with antibiotics like Penicillin and Doxycycline. It is primarily an occupational disease that affects those whose occupation involves contact with animals, especially rats. Individuals who walk barefoot through infected puddles ( as after monsoon flooding ) are at risk. This condition is found all over the world and visitors to Goa are NOT at special risk of contracting this disease.

13. Paedophilia : Of late, Goa has received some attention, albeit unwelcome, relating to this totally abhorrent crime by tourists against children. Almost every single paedophile identified so far, has been from Europe. If you are a paedophile, please do not practice it in Goa or on Goans. They are virulently opposed to it and have been sensitized to this offence.

Goa is one of the most beautiful places in the world. There are several magnificent churches, temples, waterfalls, beaches, mosques and historical places of interest. However, the part of Goa you will enjoy the most is its people, food and music. No place on earth can truly duplicate the experience of Goa - not now - not ever.

Have a safe flight...a good trip and do let us know, how your trip was.

J.Cola?o, MD
Jose Colaco
2007-03-26 02:21:23 UTC
Permalink
In response to Gilbert Lawrence. Gilbert's points are as 1-10; JC's
response's as JC 1- JC10


On 24/03/07, Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net> wrote:


1: Thank you much for your very studied responses on Goanet on presentations
and publications of medical information. I read them carefully.

JC 1: Grateful and delighted

--

2: I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along.
First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral
presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching
presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

JC 2: I remind you that "research papers' which are READ / PRESENTED at peer
review (Friday) Conferences are considered PUBLISHED. My response was in
direct response to your query as to what we expect our residents to do.

--
3: I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I
read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical
information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the
bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text or a
listing at the end of the presentation.

JC 3: I agree with you. There are NO references. It is there for the
attention of Travelers. It contains exactly the advice I would give & have
given in my private office; knowledge which I am expected to possess because
of my formal education, qualifications and work experience. The issues here
is PLAGIARISM.

Are you suggesting to me that the "stuff'" which is in your AMCHI KHOBOR
booklet (cost $5 plus postage) is NOT plagiarised?

.---

4: Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL
"research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by who?

JC 4: "What findings" are you referring to. Identify them and I will
explain. I am not very good at explaining a vacuum

--

5: Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies?
Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for
the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this
one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me?

JC 5: Please return to the topic of Plagiarism; Back up for research is an
entirely different topic

--

6: Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

JC 6: It is as published as a blog. It is also quite Free. Did you pay for
access?

--

7: And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now
we know why some 'insist' to otehrs on reference, while not doing it
themselves.:=))

JC 7: I disagree with that premise. Please look up the definition of the
word plagiarize. I submit that one does NOT plagiarize if one "credits the
source.

--

8: I am not claiming this presentation on your web site is wrong or the
information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that, you are
not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a
self-righteous moralist preaching to others? This is my last post on this
tet-a-tet.

JC 8: Thanks ....I am normally not accustomed to 'tet-a-tet'; - whatever
that is.

--

9: On this Saturday while I am on call, I really enjoyed doing some research
on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))

JC 9: I am glad for you. One must enjoy something ...after all

--

10: Kind Regards, GL

JC 10: and the same from here ...always, JC
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 15:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh,
you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the
source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we
know why some 'insist' to others on references,
while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one
provides the reference, is this reference the
original source, who deserves the credit?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable
life to deserve this? How can I make a fully grown man
understand the meaning of plagiarism?

Cheers,

Santosh
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-27 12:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

Even that great temple of learning, Wikipedia has a guide on how to
write a good article. Part of that guide is the following link on the
importance of citing sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources

Why do you seem to be defending plagiarism in your fight against
intellectual copyright.

Citing references or sources in no way hinders the sharing of knowledge
but instead vastly improves the 'quality' of information in circulation
and rightly gives credit where it is due. Whether the original authors
were or were not seeking fame or gratification for themselves is
entirely irrelevant to the debate.

Regards
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-27 13:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Plagiarism
An extract from Wikipedia states:
Plagiarism is the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and
thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own
original work. Ergo, it's tantamount to the perceived pilferage of published
products for profit and prominence. Detection can Illwill and Censure
invite..


The proscription against plagiarism is about protecting Ownership and
fostering
Creativity.

Plagiarism is unauthorized use of other's material that belies
The author?s competence and in the face of Originality flies
It smacks of soiled creativity and misplaced enterprise
Overstepping boundaries of propriety with such unfair device
Manifests abject dishonesty the Establishment does despise
As all the desirable merit accruing to such work ignobly dies
The product of an author should be unassailably seminal and wise
Of its purity and integrity, no aspersions and doubts should arise
Powers-that-be judge the work?s value not merely by craft and size
Failing the touchstone test of circumspection, Society will sternly
criticize
After due process, censorious standards of justice the Law will exercise
Thus to many a good reputation, offending pirates have said "Goodbyes"

Stealing intellectual eggs from another's nest, could make you a dubious
Book Club guest.

Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
George Pinto
2007-03-27 16:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable life to deserve this?
How can I make a fully grown man understand the meaning of plagiarism?
Dear Santosh

Gilbert is right. He is referring to "play-ger-rise" and you are referring to plagiarism. I
suspect the vast majority on this forum understand and agree with you, Jose, and Basilio's
definition of plagiarism which was previously provided. I hope any Goan student or academic in the
USA follows your definition of plagiarism to avoid getting in serious trouble. Perhaps the same
rules apply in most other places too.

Gilbert is referring to an entirely different concept (playgerism) whose spelling he mangled. As
Gilbert has correctly clarified, playgerism occurs when a medical student stands in front of a
football audience with a cricket ball and suggests he is a well-known author. When he repeats
himself, this is called self-playgerism.

So now you know the truth.

Regards,
George
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-29 12:24:18 UTC
Permalink
I have to say Frederick is winning this debate hands
down. His arguments are absolutely spot on and he
displays a very profound knowledge about the subject
of plagiarism and its natural by-product copyright.
Frederick's arguments vis-a-vis plagiarism(not intellectual copyright)
miss the mark by a mile. While his arguments might have some merit in
the context of forums such as Goanet or informal write-ups, they fly in
the face of most accepted academic norms.

He is still considering it from the rather naive perspective of "I
would be happy if someone copied my work with or without reference".
Current academic research(which is an inetgral part of human
advancement) would entirely collapse if researchers were to take such a
casual or selfish approach to this serious plague.

Far from profound, his view is from an arm chair perspective.
Go Frederick, go!
I see that you have taken my cheer-leader jibe a tad too seriously.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-30 05:06:08 UTC
Permalink
This debate has little to do with Gilbert's book, Jose's website or
Frederick "wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit".

This is about first understanding the meaning of plagiarism and resisting an
apparent attempt to revise what it means.

FN: let us not pretend that our views are all original, and not influenced
by what we read and hear.

RESPONSE: That explanation will not work in an academic environment. Many
universities now have a position called CIO - Chief Integrity Officer, to
deal with issues of plagiarism, copying, etc. Its a very serious issue.

SC: Yes, I'm sure people plagiarise thoughts, content, ideas, quotes, all
the time and as reprehensible as it is, on an internet forum, it's hardly
liable or of commercial value or of any great significance to anyone other
than the plagiariser's ego.

RESPONSE: In the case of JoeGoaUK and as informed by Jason, the website that
plagiarised JoeGoaUK's original creation (photos) has won some award.
Dismissing plagiarising as lacking significance would be unfair to the one
whose work was plagiarised.

GL: Contrary to what Santosh writes, merely giving the source of information
/ reference does not constitute "authorized use" or permission to plagerize.

RESPONSE: You cannot get permission to plagiarise. You can obtain a
permission to copy/duplicate.

GL: Santosh seeks to apply the same standards to a lay-person bulletin board
or high school and graduate non-fictional publications, in Goa or in USA.

RESPONSE: I tend to agree with SH on this issue. As I said earlier, some
Goanetters send news articles to Goanet without including a weblink to the
source. That can get troublesome when the original creator finds his/her
article on Goanet without a reference. Another reason why Goanet Rules
require only a blurb to be sent to Goanet with a weblink to the entire
article. Some people understand, some do not. I have received messages from
Wikipedia editors requesting permission/compliance for some articles being
lifted from Goanet and pasted directly in Wikipedia without quoting sources.
Those messages were directed to the authors of the articles/posts. It would
be safe to surmise that Wikipedia is concerned about plagiarism too.

GL: Is the absence of the references the deficiency of the author, or is it
the laziness of the reader in failing to further research the facts that is
of interest to them?

RESPONSE: If the author has included exact text from published works, its
"deficiency of the author" (to quote your words).

GL: I have also looked at non-medical non-fictional books in my home
library. None of them had references. I would encourage others to do the
same and check it out for themselves.

RESPONSE: I looked thru my motley collection of books randomly. As far as
most non-fiction books are concerned, they have a Bibliography. I'm looking
at my most recent addition, "India's use of Force in Goa" by "Arthur G.
Rubinoff (thank you Eddie Fernandes for the link) that was published in
1971. The book has a total of 134 pages of which 15 are devoted to the
Bibliography that includes Books, Articles, Periodicals, Pamphlets,
Yearbooks, Cases, Government Documents and Unpublished Material.
P.P. Shirodkar has provided references at the end of each chapter of his
book - Goa's Struggle for Freedom.

- Bosco
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 22:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Copy from one source and it is plagiarism.
Copy from multiple sources and it is research.

Now given all the chest pounding about uprightness,
Would an apology to Selma be forthcoming?
Or is that too much to ask?
Kind Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-21 00:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,

I am surprised that you have not heard / read of this idiom under discussion (see below). But I will be nice and not follow your example and find reasons for your oversight (being polite). Stridency and personalizing a discussion is a poor substitute for well-reasoned arguments. I hope intelligent people can dialogue without getting bent-out-of-shape. So it is time you grow-up and let your writings reflect your skill. A little sense of humor will not hurt.

The thrust of my post was a request for an apology to Selma. And that brings-up an important point about us Goans. We are quick at the draw to accuse, but not to apologize. And this applies to you too, my friend, as I have demonstrated in the past, on many topics.

Now to the issue of plagiarism. My own attitude is: Yes, I agree with you to a point. But do not push your luck too much, as you are wont to do.

It is WELL KNOWN that many use the excuse of plagiarism, including filing law suits, merely to get publicity for themselves and their work. Who would know the accuser's work, if he / she had not used plagiarism as a ruse to display this to us? Others use the threat of plagiarism to suppress other peoples' work. And, as we see on Goanet, to rebut other peoples' argument (Remember Inquisition discussion?:=)).

If somebody copies MY work, I will be very pleased. Because that further expands the message / concepts that I want to spread. My goal of writing a scientific paper (say on breast cancer), is not for self-aggrandizement. It is to help breast cancer patients. So anything that helps in spreading the info and improving the treatment (that is being suggested) is welcome - whether I get credit or not.

It is only an insecure person with little in accomplishments that would waste their time looking for who is doing what to whom. For me I have more important things to work and write on. That is the message I would give other Goans who want to really advance.

No! I am not encouraging people to plagiarize. I am encouraging them to research multiple sources and thoughtfully analyze the material one reads. As I have shown on Goanet, many have the wrong facts or impressions, from their single (or should I say the plagiarized) source.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Santosh Helekar

I am surprised that an educated man is confused about the difference between plagiarism and research. If it is mere confusion or ignorance then one can fault the type of education one has received at home or at the primary school level. But if the apparent moral equivalence between borderline criminal activity and one of the noblest forms of human endeavor, stated above, stems from cynicism, then such an assertion and mindset should be greeted with the utmost condemnation from those who are hoping that our children be better educated.
Copy from one source and it is plagiarism. Copy from multiple sources and it is research.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-21 04:26:40 UTC
Permalink
pla?gia?rism
-noun
1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of
another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

2. something used and represented in this manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If somebody copies MY work, I will be very pleased.
Because that further expands the message / concepts
that I want to spread.
RESPONSE: Gilbert, that's very gracious of you to let others copy your work
but that is not how this issue really works, today, especially from high
school all the way to PhD. Many students have gotten into serious trouble
even for minor infractions at some prestigious schools and there is a fair
amount of air time in the press too. There are utilities out there like
turnitin.com that will help a prof fish you out in a matter of seconds.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
My goal of writing a scientific paper (say on breast
cancer), is not for self-aggrandizement. It is to help
breast cancer patients. So anything that helps in
spreading the info and improving the treatment (that
is being suggested) is welcome - whether I get credit
or not.
RESPONSE: Help me out here - do medical/scientific papers have to conform to
any formatting standard? For eg. APA, MLA, Chicago, British ? If they do,
then citations, footnotes, bibliography are the norm and the issue of
plagiarism does not arise.

On a more localised level, we have the issue of some people sending news
stories here without the original weblink. That too can be problematic.
We've seen FN post some of his content here using the Creative Commons (CC)
licence which was recently launched at IIT-Mumbai. As I understand, you are
free to copy content published under this licence, but you still have to
include citations.

I think the issue that JoeGoaUK brought to our attention of people
plagiarizing his work is unfortunate. Its a known fact that JoeGoaUK invests
a considerable amount of time in generating those videoclips.

Some of the photos in the links that were provided by Jose Colaco seemed
dubious. But as he himself indicated that is a common location to take a
picture.

- Bosco
Cecil Pinto
2007-03-21 08:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Forgive my ignorance but I'm not quite understanding who stands where on
this thread of plagiarism.

1) Why exactly is Gilbert Lawrence expecting Selma to apologise? What
exactly did she plagiarize?

2) Gilbert Lawrence has also authored a book, "Amchi Khobor - Our News -
Inside Goa". Since there are no references cited I can only assume that the
entire contents of the book are his original work. Will Gilbert please
clarify if the contents of his book are all original? If there are parts
that are quoted from other books or papers why haven't they been given
credit, as is the norm worldwide. Or is there some new trend in publishing
where one can freely quote without mentioning the original sources?

3) Will Fred please clarify if the model which he is propounding allows one
to quote large sections from original sources without giving credit and
thus making it appear as though it was the author's original work?

Cheers!

Cecil
==========
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-22 02:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers - not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of plagiarizing.

This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures. There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened to this impressive presentation.

Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done at other teaching hospitals?
Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the facts he presented?
Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they get their training in the Bahamas?

Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published data?
Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?
Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of which are not your original work?
If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students to use it or would that be plagiarized information?
If one does not want the students to use the facts and information provided, why does one teach?

Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?
If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?
Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the authors' ideas?
Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one cannot use the information gained from the book?

If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount historical events or would that be plagiarized information?
Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have references?

I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers. If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's and my last post. As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified with a response.
Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-25 03:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,

Thank you much for your very studied responses. I read them carefully. I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along. First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text, NOR a listing of references at the end of the presentation.

Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL "research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by whom? Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies? Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me? Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we know why some 'insist' to others on references, while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one provides the reference, is this reference the original source, who deserves the credit?

I am not claiming this presentation on your web blog is wrong or the information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that you are not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a self-righteous moralist preaching to others? I hope this can be my last post on this tet-a-tet. On this Saturday while I am on call, I enjoyed doing some research on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))
Kind Regards, GL
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
12. Inoculations : Assuming that all the immunizations of childhood are completed, immunization is recommended against Tetanus, Polio, Hepatitis A&B. Vaccination should also be considered against Japanese Encephalitis, Typhoid, Cholera and Meningococcal infections. If a stop-over is planned in Africa, the yellow fever vaccine is recommended.

Typhoid fever : is transmitted usually through contaminated food and water (watch the pani-puri). This disease is common and the risk of contracting infection can be lowered by following the food and water precautions listed above. There are two vaccines currently available for the prevention of typhoid fever. The oral vaccine is available in the form of a capsule to be taken every other day for 4 doses. A booster is required every 5 years. The injectable vaccine ViCPS is administered once every two years. It is important to note that the efficacy of the vaccine is not 100% and that the precautions should be followed meticulously.

Cholera : a severe diarrhoeal disease transmitted mainly through contaminated water and food. The strike rate for Goa at this moment is low and once food and water safety precautions are followed, vaccination against cholera becomes 'very optional' unless a trip to the Ganges area is planned.

Hepatitis A : is a viral infection usually transmitted through uncooked food, water, shellfish and ice. The risk for this infection is high. For short-term protection, a dose of Immunoglobulin ( IG ) is recommended. But for a prolonged stay, it is advisable to avail of the vaccination against this disease. There are two vaccines currently recommended : Havrix and Vaqta. Please contact your local physician and seek advice about what is available in your country and what dosage is recommended.

Hepatitis B : is mainly transmitted through sexual activity and upon receiving inadequately screened blood. The incidence of Hepatitis B in India is high and vaccination is strongly recommended. The vaccination schedule should be commenced at least 6 months before the planned departure to India in order to complete the full schedule of immunization. It is important to remember that contact with infected individuals who have open skin lesions, also may result in infection.

Hepatitis E: Like Hepatitis A, this virus is spread through contaminated food or water. It appears to affect adults more than it affects children, and recovery without chronic liver disease is the norm. Fatalities are rare except in women who contract the infection during pregnancy. This infection is endemic in India, though significant infections were not reported in Goa prior to this 2003 outbreak. At this moment, no vaccine is available for prevention of Hepatitis E.

Meningococcal disease : causes a severe infection of the brain. Vaccination is advised particularly if the port of entry is New Delhi. This disease which is more prevalent in the Northern part of India, occurs year around.

Japanese Encephalitis : is more common in rural rice-field areas and occurs mainly during the monsoon season. It causes a severe swelling of the brain called encephalitis. While there is no drug to treat the disease a vaccine JE-VAX is available for the prevention of this disease. There has recently been a serious outbreak of this disease in North Central India. Travelers are advised to either be vaccinated against this disease or avoid the region altogether. At this moment, the risk of contracting this disease in Goa is small.

Vaccination should be seriously considered for individuals planning to reside in the rural areas especially during the monsoon season. The vaccine is administered in 3 doses. Pregnant women and individuals with a history of multiple allergies should not be administered this vaccine.

Leptospirosis: is a bacterial disease associated with wild and domestic animals. It causes severe symptoms including fever, headache, chills, muscle aches, vomiting, jaundice and a rash. It is easily treatable with antibiotics like Penicillin and Doxycycline. It is primarily an occupational disease that affects those whose occupation involves contact with animals, especially rats. Individuals who walk barefoot through infected puddles ( as after monsoon flooding ) are at risk. This condition is found all over the world and visitors to Goa are NOT at special risk of contracting this disease.

13. Paedophilia : Of late, Goa has received some attention, albeit unwelcome, relating to this totally abhorrent crime by tourists against children. Almost every single paedophile identified so far, has been from Europe. If you are a paedophile, please do not practice it in Goa or on Goans. They are virulently opposed to it and have been sensitized to this offence.

Goa is one of the most beautiful places in the world. There are several magnificent churches, temples, waterfalls, beaches, mosques and historical places of interest. However, the part of Goa you will enjoy the most is its people, food and music. No place on earth can truly duplicate the experience of Goa - not now - not ever.

Have a safe flight...a good trip and do let us know, how your trip was.

J.Cola?o, MD
Jose Colaco
2007-03-26 02:21:23 UTC
Permalink
In response to Gilbert Lawrence. Gilbert's points are as 1-10; JC's
response's as JC 1- JC10


On 24/03/07, Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net> wrote:


1: Thank you much for your very studied responses on Goanet on presentations
and publications of medical information. I read them carefully.

JC 1: Grateful and delighted

--

2: I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along.
First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral
presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching
presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

JC 2: I remind you that "research papers' which are READ / PRESENTED at peer
review (Friday) Conferences are considered PUBLISHED. My response was in
direct response to your query as to what we expect our residents to do.

--
3: I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I
read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical
information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the
bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text or a
listing at the end of the presentation.

JC 3: I agree with you. There are NO references. It is there for the
attention of Travelers. It contains exactly the advice I would give & have
given in my private office; knowledge which I am expected to possess because
of my formal education, qualifications and work experience. The issues here
is PLAGIARISM.

Are you suggesting to me that the "stuff'" which is in your AMCHI KHOBOR
booklet (cost $5 plus postage) is NOT plagiarised?

.---

4: Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL
"research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by who?

JC 4: "What findings" are you referring to. Identify them and I will
explain. I am not very good at explaining a vacuum

--

5: Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies?
Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for
the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this
one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me?

JC 5: Please return to the topic of Plagiarism; Back up for research is an
entirely different topic

--

6: Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

JC 6: It is as published as a blog. It is also quite Free. Did you pay for
access?

--

7: And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now
we know why some 'insist' to otehrs on reference, while not doing it
themselves.:=))

JC 7: I disagree with that premise. Please look up the definition of the
word plagiarize. I submit that one does NOT plagiarize if one "credits the
source.

--

8: I am not claiming this presentation on your web site is wrong or the
information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that, you are
not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a
self-righteous moralist preaching to others? This is my last post on this
tet-a-tet.

JC 8: Thanks ....I am normally not accustomed to 'tet-a-tet'; - whatever
that is.

--

9: On this Saturday while I am on call, I really enjoyed doing some research
on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))

JC 9: I am glad for you. One must enjoy something ...after all

--

10: Kind Regards, GL

JC 10: and the same from here ...always, JC
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 15:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh,
you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the
source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we
know why some 'insist' to others on references,
while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one
provides the reference, is this reference the
original source, who deserves the credit?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable
life to deserve this? How can I make a fully grown man
understand the meaning of plagiarism?

Cheers,

Santosh
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-27 12:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

Even that great temple of learning, Wikipedia has a guide on how to
write a good article. Part of that guide is the following link on the
importance of citing sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources

Why do you seem to be defending plagiarism in your fight against
intellectual copyright.

Citing references or sources in no way hinders the sharing of knowledge
but instead vastly improves the 'quality' of information in circulation
and rightly gives credit where it is due. Whether the original authors
were or were not seeking fame or gratification for themselves is
entirely irrelevant to the debate.

Regards
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-27 13:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Plagiarism
An extract from Wikipedia states:
Plagiarism is the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and
thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own
original work. Ergo, it's tantamount to the perceived pilferage of published
products for profit and prominence. Detection can Illwill and Censure
invite..


The proscription against plagiarism is about protecting Ownership and
fostering
Creativity.

Plagiarism is unauthorized use of other's material that belies
The author?s competence and in the face of Originality flies
It smacks of soiled creativity and misplaced enterprise
Overstepping boundaries of propriety with such unfair device
Manifests abject dishonesty the Establishment does despise
As all the desirable merit accruing to such work ignobly dies
The product of an author should be unassailably seminal and wise
Of its purity and integrity, no aspersions and doubts should arise
Powers-that-be judge the work?s value not merely by craft and size
Failing the touchstone test of circumspection, Society will sternly
criticize
After due process, censorious standards of justice the Law will exercise
Thus to many a good reputation, offending pirates have said "Goodbyes"

Stealing intellectual eggs from another's nest, could make you a dubious
Book Club guest.

Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
George Pinto
2007-03-27 16:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable life to deserve this?
How can I make a fully grown man understand the meaning of plagiarism?
Dear Santosh

Gilbert is right. He is referring to "play-ger-rise" and you are referring to plagiarism. I
suspect the vast majority on this forum understand and agree with you, Jose, and Basilio's
definition of plagiarism which was previously provided. I hope any Goan student or academic in the
USA follows your definition of plagiarism to avoid getting in serious trouble. Perhaps the same
rules apply in most other places too.

Gilbert is referring to an entirely different concept (playgerism) whose spelling he mangled. As
Gilbert has correctly clarified, playgerism occurs when a medical student stands in front of a
football audience with a cricket ball and suggests he is a well-known author. When he repeats
himself, this is called self-playgerism.

So now you know the truth.

Regards,
George
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-29 12:24:18 UTC
Permalink
I have to say Frederick is winning this debate hands
down. His arguments are absolutely spot on and he
displays a very profound knowledge about the subject
of plagiarism and its natural by-product copyright.
Frederick's arguments vis-a-vis plagiarism(not intellectual copyright)
miss the mark by a mile. While his arguments might have some merit in
the context of forums such as Goanet or informal write-ups, they fly in
the face of most accepted academic norms.

He is still considering it from the rather naive perspective of "I
would be happy if someone copied my work with or without reference".
Current academic research(which is an inetgral part of human
advancement) would entirely collapse if researchers were to take such a
casual or selfish approach to this serious plague.

Far from profound, his view is from an arm chair perspective.
Go Frederick, go!
I see that you have taken my cheer-leader jibe a tad too seriously.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-30 05:06:08 UTC
Permalink
This debate has little to do with Gilbert's book, Jose's website or
Frederick "wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit".

This is about first understanding the meaning of plagiarism and resisting an
apparent attempt to revise what it means.

FN: let us not pretend that our views are all original, and not influenced
by what we read and hear.

RESPONSE: That explanation will not work in an academic environment. Many
universities now have a position called CIO - Chief Integrity Officer, to
deal with issues of plagiarism, copying, etc. Its a very serious issue.

SC: Yes, I'm sure people plagiarise thoughts, content, ideas, quotes, all
the time and as reprehensible as it is, on an internet forum, it's hardly
liable or of commercial value or of any great significance to anyone other
than the plagiariser's ego.

RESPONSE: In the case of JoeGoaUK and as informed by Jason, the website that
plagiarised JoeGoaUK's original creation (photos) has won some award.
Dismissing plagiarising as lacking significance would be unfair to the one
whose work was plagiarised.

GL: Contrary to what Santosh writes, merely giving the source of information
/ reference does not constitute "authorized use" or permission to plagerize.

RESPONSE: You cannot get permission to plagiarise. You can obtain a
permission to copy/duplicate.

GL: Santosh seeks to apply the same standards to a lay-person bulletin board
or high school and graduate non-fictional publications, in Goa or in USA.

RESPONSE: I tend to agree with SH on this issue. As I said earlier, some
Goanetters send news articles to Goanet without including a weblink to the
source. That can get troublesome when the original creator finds his/her
article on Goanet without a reference. Another reason why Goanet Rules
require only a blurb to be sent to Goanet with a weblink to the entire
article. Some people understand, some do not. I have received messages from
Wikipedia editors requesting permission/compliance for some articles being
lifted from Goanet and pasted directly in Wikipedia without quoting sources.
Those messages were directed to the authors of the articles/posts. It would
be safe to surmise that Wikipedia is concerned about plagiarism too.

GL: Is the absence of the references the deficiency of the author, or is it
the laziness of the reader in failing to further research the facts that is
of interest to them?

RESPONSE: If the author has included exact text from published works, its
"deficiency of the author" (to quote your words).

GL: I have also looked at non-medical non-fictional books in my home
library. None of them had references. I would encourage others to do the
same and check it out for themselves.

RESPONSE: I looked thru my motley collection of books randomly. As far as
most non-fiction books are concerned, they have a Bibliography. I'm looking
at my most recent addition, "India's use of Force in Goa" by "Arthur G.
Rubinoff (thank you Eddie Fernandes for the link) that was published in
1971. The book has a total of 134 pages of which 15 are devoted to the
Bibliography that includes Books, Articles, Periodicals, Pamphlets,
Yearbooks, Cases, Government Documents and Unpublished Material.
P.P. Shirodkar has provided references at the end of each chapter of his
book - Goa's Struggle for Freedom.

- Bosco
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-18 22:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Copy from one source and it is plagiarism.
Copy from multiple sources and it is research.

Now given all the chest pounding about uprightness,
Would an apology to Selma be forthcoming?
Or is that too much to ask?
Kind Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-21 00:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,

I am surprised that you have not heard / read of this idiom under discussion (see below). But I will be nice and not follow your example and find reasons for your oversight (being polite). Stridency and personalizing a discussion is a poor substitute for well-reasoned arguments. I hope intelligent people can dialogue without getting bent-out-of-shape. So it is time you grow-up and let your writings reflect your skill. A little sense of humor will not hurt.

The thrust of my post was a request for an apology to Selma. And that brings-up an important point about us Goans. We are quick at the draw to accuse, but not to apologize. And this applies to you too, my friend, as I have demonstrated in the past, on many topics.

Now to the issue of plagiarism. My own attitude is: Yes, I agree with you to a point. But do not push your luck too much, as you are wont to do.

It is WELL KNOWN that many use the excuse of plagiarism, including filing law suits, merely to get publicity for themselves and their work. Who would know the accuser's work, if he / she had not used plagiarism as a ruse to display this to us? Others use the threat of plagiarism to suppress other peoples' work. And, as we see on Goanet, to rebut other peoples' argument (Remember Inquisition discussion?:=)).

If somebody copies MY work, I will be very pleased. Because that further expands the message / concepts that I want to spread. My goal of writing a scientific paper (say on breast cancer), is not for self-aggrandizement. It is to help breast cancer patients. So anything that helps in spreading the info and improving the treatment (that is being suggested) is welcome - whether I get credit or not.

It is only an insecure person with little in accomplishments that would waste their time looking for who is doing what to whom. For me I have more important things to work and write on. That is the message I would give other Goans who want to really advance.

No! I am not encouraging people to plagiarize. I am encouraging them to research multiple sources and thoughtfully analyze the material one reads. As I have shown on Goanet, many have the wrong facts or impressions, from their single (or should I say the plagiarized) source.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Santosh Helekar

I am surprised that an educated man is confused about the difference between plagiarism and research. If it is mere confusion or ignorance then one can fault the type of education one has received at home or at the primary school level. But if the apparent moral equivalence between borderline criminal activity and one of the noblest forms of human endeavor, stated above, stems from cynicism, then such an assertion and mindset should be greeted with the utmost condemnation from those who are hoping that our children be better educated.
Copy from one source and it is plagiarism. Copy from multiple sources and it is research.
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-21 04:26:40 UTC
Permalink
pla?gia?rism
-noun
1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of
another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

2. something used and represented in this manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If somebody copies MY work, I will be very pleased.
Because that further expands the message / concepts
that I want to spread.
RESPONSE: Gilbert, that's very gracious of you to let others copy your work
but that is not how this issue really works, today, especially from high
school all the way to PhD. Many students have gotten into serious trouble
even for minor infractions at some prestigious schools and there is a fair
amount of air time in the press too. There are utilities out there like
turnitin.com that will help a prof fish you out in a matter of seconds.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
My goal of writing a scientific paper (say on breast
cancer), is not for self-aggrandizement. It is to help
breast cancer patients. So anything that helps in
spreading the info and improving the treatment (that
is being suggested) is welcome - whether I get credit
or not.
RESPONSE: Help me out here - do medical/scientific papers have to conform to
any formatting standard? For eg. APA, MLA, Chicago, British ? If they do,
then citations, footnotes, bibliography are the norm and the issue of
plagiarism does not arise.

On a more localised level, we have the issue of some people sending news
stories here without the original weblink. That too can be problematic.
We've seen FN post some of his content here using the Creative Commons (CC)
licence which was recently launched at IIT-Mumbai. As I understand, you are
free to copy content published under this licence, but you still have to
include citations.

I think the issue that JoeGoaUK brought to our attention of people
plagiarizing his work is unfortunate. Its a known fact that JoeGoaUK invests
a considerable amount of time in generating those videoclips.

Some of the photos in the links that were provided by Jose Colaco seemed
dubious. But as he himself indicated that is a common location to take a
picture.

- Bosco
Cecil Pinto
2007-03-21 08:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Forgive my ignorance but I'm not quite understanding who stands where on
this thread of plagiarism.

1) Why exactly is Gilbert Lawrence expecting Selma to apologise? What
exactly did she plagiarize?

2) Gilbert Lawrence has also authored a book, "Amchi Khobor - Our News -
Inside Goa". Since there are no references cited I can only assume that the
entire contents of the book are his original work. Will Gilbert please
clarify if the contents of his book are all original? If there are parts
that are quoted from other books or papers why haven't they been given
credit, as is the norm worldwide. Or is there some new trend in publishing
where one can freely quote without mentioning the original sources?

3) Will Fred please clarify if the model which he is propounding allows one
to quote large sections from original sources without giving credit and
thus making it appear as though it was the author's original work?

Cheers!

Cecil
==========
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-22 02:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers - not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of plagiarizing.

This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures. There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened to this impressive presentation.

Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done at other teaching hospitals?
Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the facts he presented?
Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they get their training in the Bahamas?

Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published data?
Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?
Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of which are not your original work?
If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students to use it or would that be plagiarized information?
If one does not want the students to use the facts and information provided, why does one teach?

Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?
If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?
Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the authors' ideas?
Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one cannot use the information gained from the book?

If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount historical events or would that be plagiarized information?
Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have references?

I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers. If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's and my last post. As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified with a response.
Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2007-03-25 03:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jose,

Thank you much for your very studied responses. I read them carefully. I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along. First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text, NOR a listing of references at the end of the presentation.

Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL "research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by whom? Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies? Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me? Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we know why some 'insist' to others on references, while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one provides the reference, is this reference the original source, who deserves the credit?

I am not claiming this presentation on your web blog is wrong or the information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that you are not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a self-righteous moralist preaching to others? I hope this can be my last post on this tet-a-tet. On this Saturday while I am on call, I enjoyed doing some research on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))
Kind Regards, GL
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
12. Inoculations : Assuming that all the immunizations of childhood are completed, immunization is recommended against Tetanus, Polio, Hepatitis A&B. Vaccination should also be considered against Japanese Encephalitis, Typhoid, Cholera and Meningococcal infections. If a stop-over is planned in Africa, the yellow fever vaccine is recommended.

Typhoid fever : is transmitted usually through contaminated food and water (watch the pani-puri). This disease is common and the risk of contracting infection can be lowered by following the food and water precautions listed above. There are two vaccines currently available for the prevention of typhoid fever. The oral vaccine is available in the form of a capsule to be taken every other day for 4 doses. A booster is required every 5 years. The injectable vaccine ViCPS is administered once every two years. It is important to note that the efficacy of the vaccine is not 100% and that the precautions should be followed meticulously.

Cholera : a severe diarrhoeal disease transmitted mainly through contaminated water and food. The strike rate for Goa at this moment is low and once food and water safety precautions are followed, vaccination against cholera becomes 'very optional' unless a trip to the Ganges area is planned.

Hepatitis A : is a viral infection usually transmitted through uncooked food, water, shellfish and ice. The risk for this infection is high. For short-term protection, a dose of Immunoglobulin ( IG ) is recommended. But for a prolonged stay, it is advisable to avail of the vaccination against this disease. There are two vaccines currently recommended : Havrix and Vaqta. Please contact your local physician and seek advice about what is available in your country and what dosage is recommended.

Hepatitis B : is mainly transmitted through sexual activity and upon receiving inadequately screened blood. The incidence of Hepatitis B in India is high and vaccination is strongly recommended. The vaccination schedule should be commenced at least 6 months before the planned departure to India in order to complete the full schedule of immunization. It is important to remember that contact with infected individuals who have open skin lesions, also may result in infection.

Hepatitis E: Like Hepatitis A, this virus is spread through contaminated food or water. It appears to affect adults more than it affects children, and recovery without chronic liver disease is the norm. Fatalities are rare except in women who contract the infection during pregnancy. This infection is endemic in India, though significant infections were not reported in Goa prior to this 2003 outbreak. At this moment, no vaccine is available for prevention of Hepatitis E.

Meningococcal disease : causes a severe infection of the brain. Vaccination is advised particularly if the port of entry is New Delhi. This disease which is more prevalent in the Northern part of India, occurs year around.

Japanese Encephalitis : is more common in rural rice-field areas and occurs mainly during the monsoon season. It causes a severe swelling of the brain called encephalitis. While there is no drug to treat the disease a vaccine JE-VAX is available for the prevention of this disease. There has recently been a serious outbreak of this disease in North Central India. Travelers are advised to either be vaccinated against this disease or avoid the region altogether. At this moment, the risk of contracting this disease in Goa is small.

Vaccination should be seriously considered for individuals planning to reside in the rural areas especially during the monsoon season. The vaccine is administered in 3 doses. Pregnant women and individuals with a history of multiple allergies should not be administered this vaccine.

Leptospirosis: is a bacterial disease associated with wild and domestic animals. It causes severe symptoms including fever, headache, chills, muscle aches, vomiting, jaundice and a rash. It is easily treatable with antibiotics like Penicillin and Doxycycline. It is primarily an occupational disease that affects those whose occupation involves contact with animals, especially rats. Individuals who walk barefoot through infected puddles ( as after monsoon flooding ) are at risk. This condition is found all over the world and visitors to Goa are NOT at special risk of contracting this disease.

13. Paedophilia : Of late, Goa has received some attention, albeit unwelcome, relating to this totally abhorrent crime by tourists against children. Almost every single paedophile identified so far, has been from Europe. If you are a paedophile, please do not practice it in Goa or on Goans. They are virulently opposed to it and have been sensitized to this offence.

Goa is one of the most beautiful places in the world. There are several magnificent churches, temples, waterfalls, beaches, mosques and historical places of interest. However, the part of Goa you will enjoy the most is its people, food and music. No place on earth can truly duplicate the experience of Goa - not now - not ever.

Have a safe flight...a good trip and do let us know, how your trip was.

J.Cola?o, MD
Jose Colaco
2007-03-26 02:21:23 UTC
Permalink
In response to Gilbert Lawrence. Gilbert's points are as 1-10; JC's
response's as JC 1- JC10


On 24/03/07, Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net> wrote:


1: Thank you much for your very studied responses on Goanet on presentations
and publications of medical information. I read them carefully.

JC 1: Grateful and delighted

--

2: I noticed the shift in your standards as I proceeded reading along.
First you claimed that references are needed for everything, including oral
presentation (by your medical students). On questions about YOUR teaching
presentations, you claim needing references only on PUBLISHED material.

JC 2: I remind you that "research papers' which are READ / PRESENTED at peer
review (Friday) Conferences are considered PUBLISHED. My response was in
direct response to your query as to what we expect our residents to do.

--
3: I reviewed YOUR web site TGF. Under "Advisory" about travel to Goa, I
read the following which is "cut and paste". I reproduced only the medical
information, since this was WRITTEN BY YOU, with your name and degree at the
bottom. I noticed there were NO REFERENCES in the body of the text or a
listing at the end of the presentation.

JC 3: I agree with you. There are NO references. It is there for the
attention of Travelers. It contains exactly the advice I would give & have
given in my private office; knowledge which I am expected to possess because
of my formal education, qualifications and work experience. The issues here
is PLAGIARISM.

Are you suggesting to me that the "stuff'" which is in your AMCHI KHOBOR
booklet (cost $5 plus postage) is NOT plagiarised?

.---

4: Do I presume that the following statements are ALL YOUR PERSONAL
"research and original findings?" Some are recommendations - by who?

JC 4: "What findings" are you referring to. Identify them and I will
explain. I am not very good at explaining a vacuum

--

5: Are your opinions and conclusions in / on Goa backed by any studies?
Should you not be providing a list of references (credit the sources) for
the many definitive statements and scientific recommendation? Or is this
one standard for you and another for other supurlo Goenkars like me?

JC 5: Please return to the topic of Plagiarism; Back up for research is an
entirely different topic

--

6: Or would you say that the TGF web site is not "published material"?

JC 6: It is as published as a blog. It is also quite Free. Did you pay for
access?

--

7: And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given? Perhaps now
we know why some 'insist' to otehrs on reference, while not doing it
themselves.:=))

JC 7: I disagree with that premise. Please look up the definition of the
word plagiarize. I submit that one does NOT plagiarize if one "credits the
source.

--

8: I am not claiming this presentation on your web site is wrong or the
information is fraudulent. I think it is helpful. It is just that, you are
not following what you so righteously insist others should do. Are you a
self-righteous moralist preaching to others? This is my last post on this
tet-a-tet.

JC 8: Thanks ....I am normally not accustomed to 'tet-a-tet'; - whatever
that is.

--

9: On this Saturday while I am on call, I really enjoyed doing some research
on your research, which was researching somebody else's research.:=)) :=))

JC 9: I am glad for you. One must enjoy something ...after all

--

10: Kind Regards, GL

JC 10: and the same from here ...always, JC
From TGF WEB SITE - travel advisory to Goa
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 15:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh,
you can 'plagiarize'. But how does one know, if the
source / reference is not given? Perhaps now we
know why some 'insist' to others on references,
while not doing it themselves.:=)) And if one
provides the reference, is this reference the
original source, who deserves the credit?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable
life to deserve this? How can I make a fully grown man
understand the meaning of plagiarism?

Cheers,

Santosh
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-27 12:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

Even that great temple of learning, Wikipedia has a guide on how to
write a good article. Part of that guide is the following link on the
importance of citing sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cite_sources

Why do you seem to be defending plagiarism in your fight against
intellectual copyright.

Citing references or sources in no way hinders the sharing of knowledge
but instead vastly improves the 'quality' of information in circulation
and rightly gives credit where it is due. Whether the original authors
were or were not seeking fame or gratification for themselves is
entirely irrelevant to the debate.

Regards
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Arnold Noronha
2007-03-27 13:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Plagiarism
An extract from Wikipedia states:
Plagiarism is the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and
thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own
original work. Ergo, it's tantamount to the perceived pilferage of published
products for profit and prominence. Detection can Illwill and Censure
invite..


The proscription against plagiarism is about protecting Ownership and
fostering
Creativity.

Plagiarism is unauthorized use of other's material that belies
The author?s competence and in the face of Originality flies
It smacks of soiled creativity and misplaced enterprise
Overstepping boundaries of propriety with such unfair device
Manifests abject dishonesty the Establishment does despise
As all the desirable merit accruing to such work ignobly dies
The product of an author should be unassailably seminal and wise
Of its purity and integrity, no aspersions and doubts should arise
Powers-that-be judge the work?s value not merely by craft and size
Failing the touchstone test of circumspection, Society will sternly
criticize
After due process, censorious standards of justice the Law will exercise
Thus to many a good reputation, offending pirates have said "Goodbyes"

Stealing intellectual eggs from another's nest, could make you a dubious
Book Club guest.

Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
George Pinto
2007-03-27 16:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
And if you credit the source, according to Santosh, you can 'plagiarize'.
But how does one know, if the source / reference is not given?
Oh great Marduk! What have I done in my poor miserable life to deserve this?
How can I make a fully grown man understand the meaning of plagiarism?
Dear Santosh

Gilbert is right. He is referring to "play-ger-rise" and you are referring to plagiarism. I
suspect the vast majority on this forum understand and agree with you, Jose, and Basilio's
definition of plagiarism which was previously provided. I hope any Goan student or academic in the
USA follows your definition of plagiarism to avoid getting in serious trouble. Perhaps the same
rules apply in most other places too.

Gilbert is referring to an entirely different concept (playgerism) whose spelling he mangled. As
Gilbert has correctly clarified, playgerism occurs when a medical student stands in front of a
football audience with a cricket ball and suggests he is a well-known author. When he repeats
himself, this is called self-playgerism.

So now you know the truth.

Regards,
George
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-29 12:24:18 UTC
Permalink
I have to say Frederick is winning this debate hands
down. His arguments are absolutely spot on and he
displays a very profound knowledge about the subject
of plagiarism and its natural by-product copyright.
Frederick's arguments vis-a-vis plagiarism(not intellectual copyright)
miss the mark by a mile. While his arguments might have some merit in
the context of forums such as Goanet or informal write-ups, they fly in
the face of most accepted academic norms.

He is still considering it from the rather naive perspective of "I
would be happy if someone copied my work with or without reference".
Current academic research(which is an inetgral part of human
advancement) would entirely collapse if researchers were to take such a
casual or selfish approach to this serious plague.

Far from profound, his view is from an arm chair perspective.
Go Frederick, go!
I see that you have taken my cheer-leader jibe a tad too seriously.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Bosco D'Mello
2007-03-30 05:06:08 UTC
Permalink
This debate has little to do with Gilbert's book, Jose's website or
Frederick "wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit".

This is about first understanding the meaning of plagiarism and resisting an
apparent attempt to revise what it means.

FN: let us not pretend that our views are all original, and not influenced
by what we read and hear.

RESPONSE: That explanation will not work in an academic environment. Many
universities now have a position called CIO - Chief Integrity Officer, to
deal with issues of plagiarism, copying, etc. Its a very serious issue.

SC: Yes, I'm sure people plagiarise thoughts, content, ideas, quotes, all
the time and as reprehensible as it is, on an internet forum, it's hardly
liable or of commercial value or of any great significance to anyone other
than the plagiariser's ego.

RESPONSE: In the case of JoeGoaUK and as informed by Jason, the website that
plagiarised JoeGoaUK's original creation (photos) has won some award.
Dismissing plagiarising as lacking significance would be unfair to the one
whose work was plagiarised.

GL: Contrary to what Santosh writes, merely giving the source of information
/ reference does not constitute "authorized use" or permission to plagerize.

RESPONSE: You cannot get permission to plagiarise. You can obtain a
permission to copy/duplicate.

GL: Santosh seeks to apply the same standards to a lay-person bulletin board
or high school and graduate non-fictional publications, in Goa or in USA.

RESPONSE: I tend to agree with SH on this issue. As I said earlier, some
Goanetters send news articles to Goanet without including a weblink to the
source. That can get troublesome when the original creator finds his/her
article on Goanet without a reference. Another reason why Goanet Rules
require only a blurb to be sent to Goanet with a weblink to the entire
article. Some people understand, some do not. I have received messages from
Wikipedia editors requesting permission/compliance for some articles being
lifted from Goanet and pasted directly in Wikipedia without quoting sources.
Those messages were directed to the authors of the articles/posts. It would
be safe to surmise that Wikipedia is concerned about plagiarism too.

GL: Is the absence of the references the deficiency of the author, or is it
the laziness of the reader in failing to further research the facts that is
of interest to them?

RESPONSE: If the author has included exact text from published works, its
"deficiency of the author" (to quote your words).

GL: I have also looked at non-medical non-fictional books in my home
library. None of them had references. I would encourage others to do the
same and check it out for themselves.

RESPONSE: I looked thru my motley collection of books randomly. As far as
most non-fiction books are concerned, they have a Bibliography. I'm looking
at my most recent addition, "India's use of Force in Goa" by "Arthur G.
Rubinoff (thank you Eddie Fernandes for the link) that was published in
1971. The book has a total of 134 pages of which 15 are devoted to the
Bibliography that includes Books, Articles, Periodicals, Pamphlets,
Yearbooks, Cases, Government Documents and Unpublished Material.
P.P. Shirodkar has provided references at the end of each chapter of his
book - Goa's Struggle for Freedom.

- Bosco
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-03 00:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress.
True, but only because it has not been allowed to do so. It is equallly
important to maintain these standards of peer review and publication in
countries such as India where research is still in its nascent stages.
Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.
Try what? I think the technology sector which you are focussing on has
more start ups than any other sector today. The progress in this sector
has also out paced most other sectors.
Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.
Why wouldn't we be? The computer you use has hundreds of patents on its
components. Similarly the software you use is probably protected by
copyright(mine is). Yet we are still having this discussion.

TCP/IP is a protocol or standard, its very purpose was to get every
network to use the same procedure to communicate. It made no sense for
the US DoD to patent or copyright it at the time. It would be like
trying to increase viewership of a TV programme by making it
pay-per-view.

One thing is certain, if not for the pioneering work in Stanford and
UCL and all the academic research that has followed since, the Internet
would be a far cry from what it is today.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-03 00:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress.
True, but only because it has not been allowed to do so. It is equallly
important to maintain these standards of peer review and publication in
countries such as India where research is still in its nascent stages.
Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.
Try what? I think the technology sector which you are focussing on has
more start ups than any other sector today. The progress in this sector
has also out paced most other sectors.
Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.
Why wouldn't we be? The computer you use has hundreds of patents on its
components. Similarly the software you use is probably protected by
copyright(mine is). Yet we are still having this discussion.

TCP/IP is a protocol or standard, its very purpose was to get every
network to use the same procedure to communicate. It made no sense for
the US DoD to patent or copyright it at the time. It would be like
trying to increase viewership of a TV programme by making it
pay-per-view.

One thing is certain, if not for the pioneering work in Stanford and
UCL and all the academic research that has followed since, the Internet
would be a far cry from what it is today.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-03 00:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress.
True, but only because it has not been allowed to do so. It is equallly
important to maintain these standards of peer review and publication in
countries such as India where research is still in its nascent stages.
Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.
Try what? I think the technology sector which you are focussing on has
more start ups than any other sector today. The progress in this sector
has also out paced most other sectors.
Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.
Why wouldn't we be? The computer you use has hundreds of patents on its
components. Similarly the software you use is probably protected by
copyright(mine is). Yet we are still having this discussion.

TCP/IP is a protocol or standard, its very purpose was to get every
network to use the same procedure to communicate. It made no sense for
the US DoD to patent or copyright it at the time. It would be like
trying to increase viewership of a TV programme by making it
pay-per-view.

One thing is certain, if not for the pioneering work in Stanford and
UCL and all the academic research that has followed since, the Internet
would be a far cry from what it is today.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-03 00:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress.
True, but only because it has not been allowed to do so. It is equallly
important to maintain these standards of peer review and publication in
countries such as India where research is still in its nascent stages.
Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.
Try what? I think the technology sector which you are focussing on has
more start ups than any other sector today. The progress in this sector
has also out paced most other sectors.
Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.
Why wouldn't we be? The computer you use has hundreds of patents on its
components. Similarly the software you use is probably protected by
copyright(mine is). Yet we are still having this discussion.

TCP/IP is a protocol or standard, its very purpose was to get every
network to use the same procedure to communicate. It made no sense for
the US DoD to patent or copyright it at the time. It would be like
trying to increase viewership of a TV programme by making it
pay-per-view.

One thing is certain, if not for the pioneering work in Stanford and
UCL and all the academic research that has followed since, the Internet
would be a far cry from what it is today.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-03 00:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress.
True, but only because it has not been allowed to do so. It is equallly
important to maintain these standards of peer review and publication in
countries such as India where research is still in its nascent stages.
Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.
Try what? I think the technology sector which you are focussing on has
more start ups than any other sector today. The progress in this sector
has also out paced most other sectors.
Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.
Why wouldn't we be? The computer you use has hundreds of patents on its
components. Similarly the software you use is probably protected by
copyright(mine is). Yet we are still having this discussion.

TCP/IP is a protocol or standard, its very purpose was to get every
network to use the same procedure to communicate. It made no sense for
the US DoD to patent or copyright it at the time. It would be like
trying to increase viewership of a TV programme by making it
pay-per-view.

One thing is certain, if not for the pioneering work in Stanford and
UCL and all the academic research that has followed since, the Internet
would be a far cry from what it is today.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-03 00:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress.
True, but only because it has not been allowed to do so. It is equallly
important to maintain these standards of peer review and publication in
countries such as India where research is still in its nascent stages.
Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.
Try what? I think the technology sector which you are focussing on has
more start ups than any other sector today. The progress in this sector
has also out paced most other sectors.
Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.
Why wouldn't we be? The computer you use has hundreds of patents on its
components. Similarly the software you use is probably protected by
copyright(mine is). Yet we are still having this discussion.

TCP/IP is a protocol or standard, its very purpose was to get every
network to use the same procedure to communicate. It made no sense for
the US DoD to patent or copyright it at the time. It would be like
trying to increase viewership of a TV programme by making it
pay-per-view.

One thing is certain, if not for the pioneering work in Stanford and
UCL and all the academic research that has followed since, the Internet
would be a far cry from what it is today.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-03 00:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress.
True, but only because it has not been allowed to do so. It is equallly
important to maintain these standards of peer review and publication in
countries such as India where research is still in its nascent stages.
Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.
Try what? I think the technology sector which you are focussing on has
more start ups than any other sector today. The progress in this sector
has also out paced most other sectors.
Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.
Why wouldn't we be? The computer you use has hundreds of patents on its
components. Similarly the software you use is probably protected by
copyright(mine is). Yet we are still having this discussion.

TCP/IP is a protocol or standard, its very purpose was to get every
network to use the same procedure to communicate. It made no sense for
the US DoD to patent or copyright it at the time. It would be like
trying to increase viewership of a TV programme by making it
pay-per-view.

One thing is certain, if not for the pioneering work in Stanford and
UCL and all the academic research that has followed since, the Internet
would be a far cry from what it is today.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
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