Discussion:
Arrey, you have to learn Konklish, men!
(too old to reply)
Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا
2014-05-22 09:40:50 UTC
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My dad used to (and sometimes still) gets very upset when someone addresses
him as "Uncle"! ("Am I your mother's brother!" he would retort.)

My late mum would always comment if someone would ask, "Boslai?" (Are you
seated?) when they saw her on the balcony in the morning. Can't they see
that I'm seated, she would say in protest!

My wife would ask me, "What do you mean by '*Just* serve my food'?"

My Panchgani-raised friend Dinesh Dias would sometimes get visibly upset
when I greeted something unbelievable which he told me (usually in the
now-not-so-crowded Cafe Prakash) with a "Shut-up, men!" "What you mean
'Shut-up'?" he would say, almost with an injured sounding air. This did
puzzle me, because what I was trying to say was simply that his story was
good, so good that it was almost unbelievable!

As someone long puzzled by all this lost-in-translation phenomenon all
around me, I only much later realised this happens because those unused to
the typically Goan manner of speaking take something to be amiss.

Now for the other side of the story:

*Uncle* in Konkani doesn't imply any familial relationship; it's just a way
of addressing a middle-aged/elderly usually Catholic Goan male. In Mumbai,
even young streetside shopkeepers address me as "Uncle".

*Bosla* or *boslai* isn't a question about your state of activity, or lack
of it. It's simply a substitute for *hello* or *good morning* or *fine
day*. The last of these we never use here, because the weather, being so
nice (or maybe we're so tolerant), is something we're not almost allowed to
grumble about; some of us even like the drenching monsoons -- that we
didn't manage to con many tourists to visit that time of the year is
something else -- and the humid summers give us lovely fruit, don't forget.

(The even better one is "Nusteak kitem?" i.e. What's for fish today?) And
'just' is probably the literal English translation of 'matschem' (a form of
'please', but maybe not that polite). As in "Matschem jevonn vadd!" (not
sure if my usage here is gramatically very accurate!). Maybe something like
the Kannada phrase 'solpa'.

"Shut-up" is a literal translation of the Konkani "Ugi rav re!" Some of
these words are untranslatable. So is their connotation.

To know what provoked this, please visit Goanet @ Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/goanet/
--
FN P +91-832-2409490 M +91-9822122436 http://goa1556.in
Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا
2014-05-22 09:50:27 UTC
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And now, if I could discuss this issue further with myself :-)

I don't want to -- even unwittingly -- give the impression that I'm the
only perfect one when it comes to Konklish, Konkani and all that. Far from
it...

One day, I called Cecil back. He seemed aghast when I asked him: "Tuven
maka apoilo?" (You called me?)

What ensued was a lengthy lesson on how the word 'call' in English doesn't
get translated into "apoilo" when a telephone call is involved.

At another time, I was attempting to describe a wall. I spoke in term of a
"durig". My audience (maybe just 2-3 persons) had a hearty laugh. They
explained that the English-language "wall" might be used generically; but a
compound wall is far different from an internal house wall. At least in
Konkani.

So much for true confessions... there would be more embarassing ones
hiding in the innermost recesses of my mind.

FN
--
FN P +91-832-2409490 M +91-9822122436 http://goa1556.in
Gabe Menezes
2014-05-22 11:51:10 UTC
Permalink
On 22 May 2014 10:50, Frederick FN Noronha * ????????? ???????? * ???????
Post by Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेड्रिक नोरोन्या * فريدريك نورونيا
And now, if I could discuss this issue further with myself :-)
I don't want to -- even unwittingly -- give the impression that I'm the
only perfect one when it comes to Konklish, Konkani and all that. Far from
it...
One day, I called Cecil back. He seemed aghast when I asked him: "Tuven
maka apoilo?" (You called me?)
What ensued was a lengthy lesson on how the word 'call' in English doesn't
get translated into "apoilo" when a telephone call is involved.
At another time, I was attempting to describe a wall. I spoke in term of a
"durig". My audience (maybe just 2-3 persons) had a hearty laugh. They
explained that the English-language "wall" might be used generically; but a
compound wall is far different from an internal house wall. At least in
Konkani.
So much for true confessions... there would be more embarassing ones
hiding in the innermost recesses of my mind.
FN
--
FN P +91-832-2409490 M +91-9822122436 http://goa1556.in
RESPONSE: Perhaps you are on the brink of bring out your next project
Konglish/Portuguese etymology

Your portrayal is so innocuous; while some like it hot and are full of glee
- the tone used and the inferences - one does not need to be a rocket
scientist to understand where they are coming from and playing to the
gallery.

There would not have been an upset, an embarrassment and anger, if it was
not kosher in the first place! Like my mother told me, you made you bed you
like in it - happily married for eons...
--
DEV BOREM KORUM

Gabe Menezes.
Venantius J Pinto
2014-05-23 06:00:21 UTC
Permalink
FN: *Bosla* or *boslai* isn't a question about your state of activity, or lack
of it. It's simply a substitute for *hello* or *good morning* or *fine
day*.

Konkani, is a "s a contextual language" as still spoke, and certainly
was spoken by those who really think in it/or are able to think in it.
It employs contextual orientation; social parameters come into play,
stressing of certain words suggest thinking not realized when simple
looking at a word, etc.

In regarding the word "boslai" there is a consciousness (still not
quite dissipated today), an awareness directed on part of the observer
towards the object. Let us say there is a woman who is of some means,
brought in a lot of dowry, properties, the family is known to eat fish
daily: essentially very comfortable. Now that woman is seen
differently by those belonging to various strata of society. Her
sitting in the balcao and the hark that is "boslai" essentially
amounts to (and not the same by all and sundry) that she has taken
care of the providing for her family and brood. The fish has been
bought: this family can afford to go to the market and pay a higher
price; the house has been swept, etc., etc., etc. A few things play
out now.
01. One may imagine seeing you seated at this hour of the day as in
chillin/being relaxed. Tokler bar nam (or not much weight/stress). Its
could suggest something else at some other time, and does not need to
be thought about. Then its a filler, and even consonant with
interjected sounds.
02. Its awesome (to see you so). To mean people like you have the good
life. You are together, etc.
03. I am pleased to see (assigning context, etc.) that all seems well.

...and so forth. I grew up on such scenarios at home and in every trip
to Goa being that my grand uncle was a very aware priest who knew his
languages (at least I believe so).

Thoughts on the contextual aspects have been raised earlier on Goanet:
Goanet Reader: Kitem? Bazarant vetam? Boslai? Paus poddta ...
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-news-goanet.org/2008-October/008759.html

Perhaps "tuvem macam (maka) apoilo" came across as being summoned.

+ + +
Venantius J Pinto
Venantius J Pinto
2014-05-24 04:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Oh language. Oh our minds. Another tangent. Here we have the word
"minority" as reflected upon in Jordan.

In Goa we took on too many foreign notions, and what we are is a direct
result of many hurst and rejections: intra and infra. Heck even ultra! A
few of us could write on what we lost, but kept thinking we were gaining.
But others may think on such matters. The onslaughts that beset us is the
process of dilution of what was not quite, but could have been.

*From, *
*Pope Francis' Holy Land Visit: Spotlight on Christians in Jordan *


*http://time.com/110595/pope-francis-holy-land-visit-spotlight-on-christians-in-jordan/
<http://time.com/110595/pope-francis-holy-land-visit-spotlight-on-christians-in-jordan/>*

*1) **Christians are not a minority. *Though Christians make up between
3-6% of Jordan's population, Muslims and Christians alike reject the term
'minority' to describe the community. In Arabic, the word does not simply
connote 'a smaller number' but 'a lesser value,' and while Christians are
clearly smaller in number than Muslims here, they have been historically
viewed as an integral, inseparable part of society. According to Wafa
Goussous of the Middle East Council of Churches, before the 1970s no one
used the word 'minority' to describe Christians. To consciously identify a
person based on his religion was a foreign concept in an Arab culture where
Christianity and Islam were both unquestioned components.

+ + +

vjp
Venantius J Pinto
2014-05-23 18:21:00 UTC
Permalink
People if you get a chance/or the access, look at the film, The Lady
with the Five Elephants. In it Svetlana Dreier, a translator
commissioned to translate five books (Five elephants) of Fyodor
Dostoyevsky, talks about how while translating one must look at the
whole, and even the reading must not merely begin top left moving
towards bottom right, but as a whole. Also that in some languages one
cannot say certain things as said in another language. So one
approaches those situations uniquely.

Best.

Venantius

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