Discussion:
Article on MOI
(too old to reply)
Tony de Sa
2011-04-25 07:40:19 UTC
Permalink
From: Elvino Rodrigues <elrocks47 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] article on medium of instruction (Adv. Peter
D'souza)

Here is something concrete for any one who want to understand better why we
should save what is withering away......

COMMENT:

As I have previously said, I respect Adv. Jos Peter D'Souza's skills in
debating and semantics.

Unfortunately, 20 years down the line, the experiment to introduce Konkani
as the medium of Instruction has failed miserably since the biggest votary
of Konkani MOI - The Diocesan Society of Education and the extended Arch
Diocesan Board of Education - has decided it was all a big mistake. Without
the support of the DSE and the ABE, support for primary education in Konkani
MOI collapses.

There are a few things that one ought to consider without emotion and
without semantics.

1. Konkani needs tremendous development in the field of literature and
vocabulary before it can be used to teach science and technical subjects.

2. In other countries and within our own country, in states like Kerala and
Tamil Nadu, one can study from KG to Ph D without the support of any other
language. Can this be done in Konkani MOI except perhaps in subjects like
languages?

3. The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by the
writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?

4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the very
section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
foreign yoke?

5. If India has strengths in the BPO world, it is because India scores over
China in the field of English speaking and fluency. Doesn't the BPO world
provide employment to many Goans?

Let us view the issue in the cold light of reason and keep semantics and
emotion and passion away from something that will affect the futures of our
children.

Adv. D'Souza by his very own admission states that he was raised in a family
which spoke English and he was educated in English. Is his understanding in
any way? So also as he says did a whole generation of Indians. While Adv.
D'Souza was in Bombay, did he not learn to speak Marathi fluently, and later
in Goa Konkani too?


--

Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
floriano
2011-04-25 11:59:29 UTC
Permalink
I think that Tony has the BULL by the horns, here.

Very well said, indeed.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org



----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony de Sa" <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Article on MOI


> From: Elvino Rodrigues <elrocks47 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Goanet] article on medium of instruction (Adv. Peter
> D'souza)
>
> Here is something concrete for any one who want to understand better why
> we
> should save what is withering away......
>
> COMMENT:
>
> As I have previously said, I respect Adv. Jos Peter D'Souza's skills in
> debating and semantics.
>

>
> 3. The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
> Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
> Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by
> the
> writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
> Imperialistic, colonial rule?
>
> 4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
> on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the
> very
> section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
> foreign yoke?
>
>> Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com
icsouza
2011-04-25 15:18:06 UTC
Permalink
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
>>>Tony D'Sa wrote:
<<<Unfortunately, 20 years down the line, the experiment to introduce Konkani as the medium of Instruction has failed miserably since the biggest votary of Konkani MOI - The Diocesan Society of Education and the extended ArchDiocesan Board of Education - has decided it was all a big mistake. Without the support of the DSE and the ABE, support for primary education in Konkani MOI collapses.
**Dear Tony,
Where is it written by church authorities that the experiment of teaching Konkani as the medium of instruction "has failed miserably"?
The Church will propose the "demands" of the parents to the Government. Then, something revised and improved may come. But why should the whole process, that was followed reasonably, for years be thrown out?
There should be revision of books and methods. There is no need to teach all subjects in Konkani in advanced classes.

<<<In other countries and within our own country, in states like Kerala and
Tamil Nadu, one can study from KG to Ph D without the support of any other
language. Can this be done in Konkani MOI except perhaps in subjects like
languages?
**I would not advise anyone to do all the higher studies in Konkani, except about Konkani literature itself. The Government should cater to those students with new strategies.

<<The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by the
writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?
**I think that Konkani should be taught in both scripts, Devnagri and Roman, and both should be recognized. What is important is to develop the Konkani language. Otherwise, Konkani may be assimilated to Marathi and disappear in the belly of Maharasthra.

<<<Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the very
section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
foreign yoke?
**Konkani has been developed by missionaries in the Roman script in the past, and till today it is maintained by Goan writers. A Goan, wherever his family may be, is always exposed to Konkani. In Goa, even those who speak English at home and had English as medium of instruction, are exposed to Konkani and speak Konkani. Today, one married lady, who has studied in English medium school in Margao, and is sending her children to English medium school, hurt her toe, unwillingly of course, by dashing against a chair, and immediately exclaimed: "Avois!" I reminded her of her English background and told her that her interjection in Konkani proves that her language is Konkani, not English. This is true of most parents who are demanding English as medium of instruction for their children--they speak Konkani at home, but try to speak English (mostly "broken") with their children and dogs!...
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
George Pinto
2011-04-25 23:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Very true Tony. The current controversy over Konkani MOI is part of the larger goal of making Marathi mandatory in ALL Goan schools. In addition, force feeding Devnagiri script through Konkani MOI or Marathi on the section of the population which does not identify with the script, reflects a disdain and contempt for Romi protagonists.


--- On Mon, 4/25/11, Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote:

> 4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby
> which insists on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the
> Goan populace, the very section that kept Konkani alive through the
> 450 years they were under the foreign yoke?
Sebastian Borges
2011-04-26 07:09:10 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear friends,
?
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011? Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote and
"floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com> endorsed:
?

<<?Wasn't Konkani sustained by?the?writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?>>
>
Comment:
I think this piffle is being repeated ad nauseam without an iota of evidence. Could someone cite just a couple of Konkani books in Roman script written by Goans or non-Europeans prior to around 1860 when Cunha Rivara's "Ensaio" appeared on the scene. Was any such book published in "Imperialistic, colonial" Goa up to as late as 1928? ?Was any book in Roman script Konkani written by any European post-1660? Would be very grateful for such information.
I may add that, contrary to the notion that is sought to be propagated, it was the Catholics who led the way in publishing Konkani books in Devanagari; the Hindus only followed. It was not the other way around.?Evidence can be provided.
?
Sebastian Borges
Tony de Sa
2011-04-26 17:22:55 UTC
Permalink
From: "floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com>

I think that Tony has the BULL by the horns, here.

Comment: As long as its not by the tail, then all is fine.

;-)

--

Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão
2011-04-27 05:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.




Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Sebastian Borges
2011-04-29 05:10:35 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Friends,
On?27 Apr 2011 10 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o ??? <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:

<< Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.>>
?
My response:



The?moot?issue?was "Wasn't Konkani sustained by?the?writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of Imperialistic, colonial rule?" and not regarding the existence or otherwise?of Concani books prior to 1961, a year that was not at all mentioned. Now, in the light of his revelation, let me ask the same questions to Dr. Falc?o:
(a) Is there any record of anyone, Goan or European, having written Concani in Roman script in the first fifty years of that rule of 450 years, i.e. up?to 1560?
(b) Records do exist of Concani (and Marata) books in Roman script written (and printed) between 1560 and 1660. Stray copies of SOME of these have also been found, mainly in Europe. Which of these was?written by a native Goan or non-European?
(c) Could you name just a couple of?Concani books in Roman script written by anyone (European included) between 1660 and 1860? (Dr. Cunha Rivara arrived on the scene around this time.)
(d)?Could you cite?any Concani books written in Roman script that were printed in Goa between 1660 and 1928??
I trust that Dr. Falc?o will come up with specific answers to these pointed questions. It will be a great contribution to the history of literary Concani. Hence, I shall be much obliged.
?
Sotachench zoit zatolem.
?
Sebastian Borges
Santosh Helekar
2011-04-29 06:02:18 UTC
Permalink
There were several "Konkani" books published much before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani" was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939. Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951. Konkani Bhasha Prachar Sabha and Konkani Language Institute were established in Cochin.

Cheers,

Santosh

--- On Wed, 4/27/11, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Prior to 1961 books in
> Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
>
> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
>
Frederick Noronha
2011-04-30 18:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Konkani is another spelling for Concani or more accurately Concanim
(the former probably used more in English usage, and the latter more
in Portugese). If one is referring to different dialects and different
scripts, then that would need to be specified. Even the
Konknni-Konkani-Concani descriptor is not sufficient to specify the
difference, I would guess. FN
PS: Didn't Shenoy Goembab initially write in the Romi script, shifting
to Devanagari in the 1930s or 1940s?

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India
http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org


Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There were several "Konkani" books published much
> before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani"
> was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei
> published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on
> Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha
> Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India
> Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939.
> Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951.
> Konkani Bhasha Prachar Sabha and Konkani Language
> Institute were established in Cochin.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Santosh
>
> --- On Wed, 4/27/11, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Prior to 1961 books in
>> Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
>> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Frederick Noronha
2011-04-30 18:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Konkani is another spelling for Concani or more accurately Concanim
(the former probably used more in English usage, and the latter more
in Portugese). If one is referring to different dialects and different
scripts, then that would need to be specified. Even the
Konknni-Konkani-Concani descriptor is not sufficient to specify the
difference, I would guess. FN
PS: Didn't Shenoy Goembab initially write in the Romi script, shifting
to Devanagari in the 1930s or 1940s?

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India
http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org


Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There were several "Konkani" books published much
> before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani"
> was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei
> published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on
> Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha
> Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India
> Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939.
> Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951.
> Konkani Bhasha Prachar Sabha and Konkani Language
> Institute were established in Cochin.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Santosh
>
> --- On Wed, 4/27/11, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Prior to 1961 books in
>> Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
>> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Frederick Noronha
2011-04-30 18:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Konkani is another spelling for Concani or more accurately Concanim
(the former probably used more in English usage, and the latter more
in Portugese). If one is referring to different dialects and different
scripts, then that would need to be specified. Even the
Konknni-Konkani-Concani descriptor is not sufficient to specify the
difference, I would guess. FN
PS: Didn't Shenoy Goembab initially write in the Romi script, shifting
to Devanagari in the 1930s or 1940s?

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India
http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org


Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There were several "Konkani" books published much
> before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani"
> was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei
> published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on
> Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha
> Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India
> Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939.
> Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951.
> Konkani Bhasha Prachar Sabha and Konkani Language
> Institute were established in Cochin.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Santosh
>
> --- On Wed, 4/27/11, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Prior to 1961 books in
>> Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
>> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Frederick Noronha
2011-04-30 18:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Konkani is another spelling for Concani or more accurately Concanim
(the former probably used more in English usage, and the latter more
in Portugese). If one is referring to different dialects and different
scripts, then that would need to be specified. Even the
Konknni-Konkani-Concani descriptor is not sufficient to specify the
difference, I would guess. FN
PS: Didn't Shenoy Goembab initially write in the Romi script, shifting
to Devanagari in the 1930s or 1940s?

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India
http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org


Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There were several "Konkani" books published much
> before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani"
> was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei
> published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on
> Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha
> Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India
> Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939.
> Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951.
> Konkani Bhasha Prachar Sabha and Konkani Language
> Institute were established in Cochin.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Santosh
>
> --- On Wed, 4/27/11, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Prior to 1961 books in
>> Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
>> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Frederick Noronha
2011-04-30 18:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Konkani is another spelling for Concani or more accurately Concanim
(the former probably used more in English usage, and the latter more
in Portugese). If one is referring to different dialects and different
scripts, then that would need to be specified. Even the
Konknni-Konkani-Concani descriptor is not sufficient to specify the
difference, I would guess. FN
PS: Didn't Shenoy Goembab initially write in the Romi script, shifting
to Devanagari in the 1930s or 1940s?

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India
http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org


Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There were several "Konkani" books published much
> before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani"
> was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei
> published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on
> Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha
> Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India
> Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939.
> Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951.
> Konkani Bhasha Prachar Sabha and Konkani Language
> Institute were established in Cochin.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Santosh
>
> --- On Wed, 4/27/11, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Prior to 1961 books in
>> Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
>> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Frederick Noronha
2011-04-30 18:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Konkani is another spelling for Concani or more accurately Concanim
(the former probably used more in English usage, and the latter more
in Portugese). If one is referring to different dialects and different
scripts, then that would need to be specified. Even the
Konknni-Konkani-Concani descriptor is not sufficient to specify the
difference, I would guess. FN
PS: Didn't Shenoy Goembab initially write in the Romi script, shifting
to Devanagari in the 1930s or 1940s?

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India
http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org


Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There were several "Konkani" books published much
> before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani"
> was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei
> published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on
> Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha
> Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India
> Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939.
> Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951.
> Konkani Bhasha Prachar Sabha and Konkani Language
> Institute were established in Cochin.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Santosh
>
> --- On Wed, 4/27/11, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Prior to 1961 books in
>> Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
>> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Tony de Sa
2011-04-25 07:40:19 UTC
Permalink
From: Elvino Rodrigues <elrocks47 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] article on medium of instruction (Adv. Peter
D'souza)

Here is something concrete for any one who want to understand better why we
should save what is withering away......

COMMENT:

As I have previously said, I respect Adv. Jos Peter D'Souza's skills in
debating and semantics.

Unfortunately, 20 years down the line, the experiment to introduce Konkani
as the medium of Instruction has failed miserably since the biggest votary
of Konkani MOI - The Diocesan Society of Education and the extended Arch
Diocesan Board of Education - has decided it was all a big mistake. Without
the support of the DSE and the ABE, support for primary education in Konkani
MOI collapses.

There are a few things that one ought to consider without emotion and
without semantics.

1. Konkani needs tremendous development in the field of literature and
vocabulary before it can be used to teach science and technical subjects.

2. In other countries and within our own country, in states like Kerala and
Tamil Nadu, one can study from KG to Ph D without the support of any other
language. Can this be done in Konkani MOI except perhaps in subjects like
languages?

3. The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by the
writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?

4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the very
section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
foreign yoke?

5. If India has strengths in the BPO world, it is because India scores over
China in the field of English speaking and fluency. Doesn't the BPO world
provide employment to many Goans?

Let us view the issue in the cold light of reason and keep semantics and
emotion and passion away from something that will affect the futures of our
children.

Adv. D'Souza by his very own admission states that he was raised in a family
which spoke English and he was educated in English. Is his understanding in
any way? So also as he says did a whole generation of Indians. While Adv.
D'Souza was in Bombay, did he not learn to speak Marathi fluently, and later
in Goa Konkani too?


--

Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
floriano
2011-04-25 11:59:29 UTC
Permalink
I think that Tony has the BULL by the horns, here.

Very well said, indeed.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org



----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony de Sa" <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Article on MOI


> From: Elvino Rodrigues <elrocks47 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Goanet] article on medium of instruction (Adv. Peter
> D'souza)
>
> Here is something concrete for any one who want to understand better why
> we
> should save what is withering away......
>
> COMMENT:
>
> As I have previously said, I respect Adv. Jos Peter D'Souza's skills in
> debating and semantics.
>

>
> 3. The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
> Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
> Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by
> the
> writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
> Imperialistic, colonial rule?
>
> 4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
> on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the
> very
> section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
> foreign yoke?
>
>> Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com
icsouza
2011-04-25 15:18:06 UTC
Permalink
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
>>>Tony D'Sa wrote:
<<<Unfortunately, 20 years down the line, the experiment to introduce Konkani as the medium of Instruction has failed miserably since the biggest votary of Konkani MOI - The Diocesan Society of Education and the extended ArchDiocesan Board of Education - has decided it was all a big mistake. Without the support of the DSE and the ABE, support for primary education in Konkani MOI collapses.
**Dear Tony,
Where is it written by church authorities that the experiment of teaching Konkani as the medium of instruction "has failed miserably"?
The Church will propose the "demands" of the parents to the Government. Then, something revised and improved may come. But why should the whole process, that was followed reasonably, for years be thrown out?
There should be revision of books and methods. There is no need to teach all subjects in Konkani in advanced classes.

<<<In other countries and within our own country, in states like Kerala and
Tamil Nadu, one can study from KG to Ph D without the support of any other
language. Can this be done in Konkani MOI except perhaps in subjects like
languages?
**I would not advise anyone to do all the higher studies in Konkani, except about Konkani literature itself. The Government should cater to those students with new strategies.

<<The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by the
writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?
**I think that Konkani should be taught in both scripts, Devnagri and Roman, and both should be recognized. What is important is to develop the Konkani language. Otherwise, Konkani may be assimilated to Marathi and disappear in the belly of Maharasthra.

<<<Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the very
section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
foreign yoke?
**Konkani has been developed by missionaries in the Roman script in the past, and till today it is maintained by Goan writers. A Goan, wherever his family may be, is always exposed to Konkani. In Goa, even those who speak English at home and had English as medium of instruction, are exposed to Konkani and speak Konkani. Today, one married lady, who has studied in English medium school in Margao, and is sending her children to English medium school, hurt her toe, unwillingly of course, by dashing against a chair, and immediately exclaimed: "Avois!" I reminded her of her English background and told her that her interjection in Konkani proves that her language is Konkani, not English. This is true of most parents who are demanding English as medium of instruction for their children--they speak Konkani at home, but try to speak English (mostly "broken") with their children and dogs!...
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
George Pinto
2011-04-25 23:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Very true Tony. The current controversy over Konkani MOI is part of the larger goal of making Marathi mandatory in ALL Goan schools. In addition, force feeding Devnagiri script through Konkani MOI or Marathi on the section of the population which does not identify with the script, reflects a disdain and contempt for Romi protagonists.


--- On Mon, 4/25/11, Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote:

> 4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby
> which insists on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the
> Goan populace, the very section that kept Konkani alive through the
> 450 years they were under the foreign yoke?
Sebastian Borges
2011-04-26 07:09:10 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear friends,
?
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011? Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote and
"floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com> endorsed:
?

<<?Wasn't Konkani sustained by?the?writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?>>
>
Comment:
I think this piffle is being repeated ad nauseam without an iota of evidence. Could someone cite just a couple of Konkani books in Roman script written by Goans or non-Europeans prior to around 1860 when Cunha Rivara's "Ensaio" appeared on the scene. Was any such book published in "Imperialistic, colonial" Goa up to as late as 1928? ?Was any book in Roman script Konkani written by any European post-1660? Would be very grateful for such information.
I may add that, contrary to the notion that is sought to be propagated, it was the Catholics who led the way in publishing Konkani books in Devanagari; the Hindus only followed. It was not the other way around.?Evidence can be provided.
?
Sebastian Borges
Tony de Sa
2011-04-26 17:22:55 UTC
Permalink
From: "floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com>

I think that Tony has the BULL by the horns, here.

Comment: As long as its not by the tail, then all is fine.

;-)

--

Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão
2011-04-27 05:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.




Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Sebastian Borges
2011-04-29 05:10:35 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Friends,
On?27 Apr 2011 10 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o ??? <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:

<< Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.>>
?
My response:



The?moot?issue?was "Wasn't Konkani sustained by?the?writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of Imperialistic, colonial rule?" and not regarding the existence or otherwise?of Concani books prior to 1961, a year that was not at all mentioned. Now, in the light of his revelation, let me ask the same questions to Dr. Falc?o:
(a) Is there any record of anyone, Goan or European, having written Concani in Roman script in the first fifty years of that rule of 450 years, i.e. up?to 1560?
(b) Records do exist of Concani (and Marata) books in Roman script written (and printed) between 1560 and 1660. Stray copies of SOME of these have also been found, mainly in Europe. Which of these was?written by a native Goan or non-European?
(c) Could you name just a couple of?Concani books in Roman script written by anyone (European included) between 1660 and 1860? (Dr. Cunha Rivara arrived on the scene around this time.)
(d)?Could you cite?any Concani books written in Roman script that were printed in Goa between 1660 and 1928??
I trust that Dr. Falc?o will come up with specific answers to these pointed questions. It will be a great contribution to the history of literary Concani. Hence, I shall be much obliged.
?
Sotachench zoit zatolem.
?
Sebastian Borges
Santosh Helekar
2011-04-29 06:02:18 UTC
Permalink
There were several "Konkani" books published much before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani" was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939. Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951. Konkani Bhasha Prachar Sabha and Konkani Language Institute were established in Cochin.

Cheers,

Santosh

--- On Wed, 4/27/11, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Prior to 1961 books in
> Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
>
> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
>
Tony de Sa
2011-04-25 07:40:19 UTC
Permalink
From: Elvino Rodrigues <elrocks47 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] article on medium of instruction (Adv. Peter
D'souza)

Here is something concrete for any one who want to understand better why we
should save what is withering away......

COMMENT:

As I have previously said, I respect Adv. Jos Peter D'Souza's skills in
debating and semantics.

Unfortunately, 20 years down the line, the experiment to introduce Konkani
as the medium of Instruction has failed miserably since the biggest votary
of Konkani MOI - The Diocesan Society of Education and the extended Arch
Diocesan Board of Education - has decided it was all a big mistake. Without
the support of the DSE and the ABE, support for primary education in Konkani
MOI collapses.

There are a few things that one ought to consider without emotion and
without semantics.

1. Konkani needs tremendous development in the field of literature and
vocabulary before it can be used to teach science and technical subjects.

2. In other countries and within our own country, in states like Kerala and
Tamil Nadu, one can study from KG to Ph D without the support of any other
language. Can this be done in Konkani MOI except perhaps in subjects like
languages?

3. The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by the
writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?

4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the very
section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
foreign yoke?

5. If India has strengths in the BPO world, it is because India scores over
China in the field of English speaking and fluency. Doesn't the BPO world
provide employment to many Goans?

Let us view the issue in the cold light of reason and keep semantics and
emotion and passion away from something that will affect the futures of our
children.

Adv. D'Souza by his very own admission states that he was raised in a family
which spoke English and he was educated in English. Is his understanding in
any way? So also as he says did a whole generation of Indians. While Adv.
D'Souza was in Bombay, did he not learn to speak Marathi fluently, and later
in Goa Konkani too?


--

Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
floriano
2011-04-25 11:59:29 UTC
Permalink
I think that Tony has the BULL by the horns, here.

Very well said, indeed.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org



----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony de Sa" <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Article on MOI


> From: Elvino Rodrigues <elrocks47 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Goanet] article on medium of instruction (Adv. Peter
> D'souza)
>
> Here is something concrete for any one who want to understand better why
> we
> should save what is withering away......
>
> COMMENT:
>
> As I have previously said, I respect Adv. Jos Peter D'Souza's skills in
> debating and semantics.
>

>
> 3. The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
> Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
> Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by
> the
> writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
> Imperialistic, colonial rule?
>
> 4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
> on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the
> very
> section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
> foreign yoke?
>
>> Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com
icsouza
2011-04-25 15:18:06 UTC
Permalink
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
>>>Tony D'Sa wrote:
<<<Unfortunately, 20 years down the line, the experiment to introduce Konkani as the medium of Instruction has failed miserably since the biggest votary of Konkani MOI - The Diocesan Society of Education and the extended ArchDiocesan Board of Education - has decided it was all a big mistake. Without the support of the DSE and the ABE, support for primary education in Konkani MOI collapses.
**Dear Tony,
Where is it written by church authorities that the experiment of teaching Konkani as the medium of instruction "has failed miserably"?
The Church will propose the "demands" of the parents to the Government. Then, something revised and improved may come. But why should the whole process, that was followed reasonably, for years be thrown out?
There should be revision of books and methods. There is no need to teach all subjects in Konkani in advanced classes.

<<<In other countries and within our own country, in states like Kerala and
Tamil Nadu, one can study from KG to Ph D without the support of any other
language. Can this be done in Konkani MOI except perhaps in subjects like
languages?
**I would not advise anyone to do all the higher studies in Konkani, except about Konkani literature itself. The Government should cater to those students with new strategies.

<<The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by the
writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?
**I think that Konkani should be taught in both scripts, Devnagri and Roman, and both should be recognized. What is important is to develop the Konkani language. Otherwise, Konkani may be assimilated to Marathi and disappear in the belly of Maharasthra.

<<<Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the very
section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
foreign yoke?
**Konkani has been developed by missionaries in the Roman script in the past, and till today it is maintained by Goan writers. A Goan, wherever his family may be, is always exposed to Konkani. In Goa, even those who speak English at home and had English as medium of instruction, are exposed to Konkani and speak Konkani. Today, one married lady, who has studied in English medium school in Margao, and is sending her children to English medium school, hurt her toe, unwillingly of course, by dashing against a chair, and immediately exclaimed: "Avois!" I reminded her of her English background and told her that her interjection in Konkani proves that her language is Konkani, not English. This is true of most parents who are demanding English as medium of instruction for their children--they speak Konkani at home, but try to speak English (mostly "broken") with their children and dogs!...
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
George Pinto
2011-04-25 23:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Very true Tony. The current controversy over Konkani MOI is part of the larger goal of making Marathi mandatory in ALL Goan schools. In addition, force feeding Devnagiri script through Konkani MOI or Marathi on the section of the population which does not identify with the script, reflects a disdain and contempt for Romi protagonists.


--- On Mon, 4/25/11, Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote:

> 4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby
> which insists on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the
> Goan populace, the very section that kept Konkani alive through the
> 450 years they were under the foreign yoke?
Sebastian Borges
2011-04-26 07:09:10 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear friends,
?
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011? Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote and
"floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com> endorsed:
?

<<?Wasn't Konkani sustained by?the?writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?>>
>
Comment:
I think this piffle is being repeated ad nauseam without an iota of evidence. Could someone cite just a couple of Konkani books in Roman script written by Goans or non-Europeans prior to around 1860 when Cunha Rivara's "Ensaio" appeared on the scene. Was any such book published in "Imperialistic, colonial" Goa up to as late as 1928? ?Was any book in Roman script Konkani written by any European post-1660? Would be very grateful for such information.
I may add that, contrary to the notion that is sought to be propagated, it was the Catholics who led the way in publishing Konkani books in Devanagari; the Hindus only followed. It was not the other way around.?Evidence can be provided.
?
Sebastian Borges
Tony de Sa
2011-04-26 17:22:55 UTC
Permalink
From: "floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com>

I think that Tony has the BULL by the horns, here.

Comment: As long as its not by the tail, then all is fine.

;-)

--

Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão
2011-04-27 05:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.




Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Sebastian Borges
2011-04-29 05:10:35 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Friends,
On?27 Apr 2011 10 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o ??? <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:

<< Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.>>
?
My response:



The?moot?issue?was "Wasn't Konkani sustained by?the?writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of Imperialistic, colonial rule?" and not regarding the existence or otherwise?of Concani books prior to 1961, a year that was not at all mentioned. Now, in the light of his revelation, let me ask the same questions to Dr. Falc?o:
(a) Is there any record of anyone, Goan or European, having written Concani in Roman script in the first fifty years of that rule of 450 years, i.e. up?to 1560?
(b) Records do exist of Concani (and Marata) books in Roman script written (and printed) between 1560 and 1660. Stray copies of SOME of these have also been found, mainly in Europe. Which of these was?written by a native Goan or non-European?
(c) Could you name just a couple of?Concani books in Roman script written by anyone (European included) between 1660 and 1860? (Dr. Cunha Rivara arrived on the scene around this time.)
(d)?Could you cite?any Concani books written in Roman script that were printed in Goa between 1660 and 1928??
I trust that Dr. Falc?o will come up with specific answers to these pointed questions. It will be a great contribution to the history of literary Concani. Hence, I shall be much obliged.
?
Sotachench zoit zatolem.
?
Sebastian Borges
Santosh Helekar
2011-04-29 06:02:18 UTC
Permalink
There were several "Konkani" books published much before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani" was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939. Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951. Konkani Bhasha Prachar Sabha and Konkani Language Institute were established in Cochin.

Cheers,

Santosh

--- On Wed, 4/27/11, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Prior to 1961 books in
> Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
>
> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
>
Tony de Sa
2011-04-25 07:40:19 UTC
Permalink
From: Elvino Rodrigues <elrocks47 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] article on medium of instruction (Adv. Peter
D'souza)

Here is something concrete for any one who want to understand better why we
should save what is withering away......

COMMENT:

As I have previously said, I respect Adv. Jos Peter D'Souza's skills in
debating and semantics.

Unfortunately, 20 years down the line, the experiment to introduce Konkani
as the medium of Instruction has failed miserably since the biggest votary
of Konkani MOI - The Diocesan Society of Education and the extended Arch
Diocesan Board of Education - has decided it was all a big mistake. Without
the support of the DSE and the ABE, support for primary education in Konkani
MOI collapses.

There are a few things that one ought to consider without emotion and
without semantics.

1. Konkani needs tremendous development in the field of literature and
vocabulary before it can be used to teach science and technical subjects.

2. In other countries and within our own country, in states like Kerala and
Tamil Nadu, one can study from KG to Ph D without the support of any other
language. Can this be done in Konkani MOI except perhaps in subjects like
languages?

3. The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by the
writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?

4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the very
section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
foreign yoke?

5. If India has strengths in the BPO world, it is because India scores over
China in the field of English speaking and fluency. Doesn't the BPO world
provide employment to many Goans?

Let us view the issue in the cold light of reason and keep semantics and
emotion and passion away from something that will affect the futures of our
children.

Adv. D'Souza by his very own admission states that he was raised in a family
which spoke English and he was educated in English. Is his understanding in
any way? So also as he says did a whole generation of Indians. While Adv.
D'Souza was in Bombay, did he not learn to speak Marathi fluently, and later
in Goa Konkani too?


--

Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
floriano
2011-04-25 11:59:29 UTC
Permalink
I think that Tony has the BULL by the horns, here.

Very well said, indeed.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org



----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony de Sa" <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Article on MOI


> From: Elvino Rodrigues <elrocks47 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Goanet] article on medium of instruction (Adv. Peter
> D'souza)
>
> Here is something concrete for any one who want to understand better why
> we
> should save what is withering away......
>
> COMMENT:
>
> As I have previously said, I respect Adv. Jos Peter D'Souza's skills in
> debating and semantics.
>

>
> 3. The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
> Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
> Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by
> the
> writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
> Imperialistic, colonial rule?
>
> 4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
> on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the
> very
> section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
> foreign yoke?
>
>> Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com
icsouza
2011-04-25 15:18:06 UTC
Permalink
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
>>>Tony D'Sa wrote:
<<<Unfortunately, 20 years down the line, the experiment to introduce Konkani as the medium of Instruction has failed miserably since the biggest votary of Konkani MOI - The Diocesan Society of Education and the extended ArchDiocesan Board of Education - has decided it was all a big mistake. Without the support of the DSE and the ABE, support for primary education in Konkani MOI collapses.
**Dear Tony,
Where is it written by church authorities that the experiment of teaching Konkani as the medium of instruction "has failed miserably"?
The Church will propose the "demands" of the parents to the Government. Then, something revised and improved may come. But why should the whole process, that was followed reasonably, for years be thrown out?
There should be revision of books and methods. There is no need to teach all subjects in Konkani in advanced classes.

<<<In other countries and within our own country, in states like Kerala and
Tamil Nadu, one can study from KG to Ph D without the support of any other
language. Can this be done in Konkani MOI except perhaps in subjects like
languages?
**I would not advise anyone to do all the higher studies in Konkani, except about Konkani literature itself. The Government should cater to those students with new strategies.

<<The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by the
writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?
**I think that Konkani should be taught in both scripts, Devnagri and Roman, and both should be recognized. What is important is to develop the Konkani language. Otherwise, Konkani may be assimilated to Marathi and disappear in the belly of Maharasthra.

<<<Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the very
section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
foreign yoke?
**Konkani has been developed by missionaries in the Roman script in the past, and till today it is maintained by Goan writers. A Goan, wherever his family may be, is always exposed to Konkani. In Goa, even those who speak English at home and had English as medium of instruction, are exposed to Konkani and speak Konkani. Today, one married lady, who has studied in English medium school in Margao, and is sending her children to English medium school, hurt her toe, unwillingly of course, by dashing against a chair, and immediately exclaimed: "Avois!" I reminded her of her English background and told her that her interjection in Konkani proves that her language is Konkani, not English. This is true of most parents who are demanding English as medium of instruction for their children--they speak Konkani at home, but try to speak English (mostly "broken") with their children and dogs!...
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
George Pinto
2011-04-25 23:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Very true Tony. The current controversy over Konkani MOI is part of the larger goal of making Marathi mandatory in ALL Goan schools. In addition, force feeding Devnagiri script through Konkani MOI or Marathi on the section of the population which does not identify with the script, reflects a disdain and contempt for Romi protagonists.


--- On Mon, 4/25/11, Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote:

> 4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby
> which insists on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the
> Goan populace, the very section that kept Konkani alive through the
> 450 years they were under the foreign yoke?
Sebastian Borges
2011-04-26 07:09:10 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear friends,
?
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011? Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote and
"floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com> endorsed:
?

<<?Wasn't Konkani sustained by?the?writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?>>
>
Comment:
I think this piffle is being repeated ad nauseam without an iota of evidence. Could someone cite just a couple of Konkani books in Roman script written by Goans or non-Europeans prior to around 1860 when Cunha Rivara's "Ensaio" appeared on the scene. Was any such book published in "Imperialistic, colonial" Goa up to as late as 1928? ?Was any book in Roman script Konkani written by any European post-1660? Would be very grateful for such information.
I may add that, contrary to the notion that is sought to be propagated, it was the Catholics who led the way in publishing Konkani books in Devanagari; the Hindus only followed. It was not the other way around.?Evidence can be provided.
?
Sebastian Borges
Tony de Sa
2011-04-26 17:22:55 UTC
Permalink
From: "floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com>

I think that Tony has the BULL by the horns, here.

Comment: As long as its not by the tail, then all is fine.

;-)

--

Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão
2011-04-27 05:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.




Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Sebastian Borges
2011-04-29 05:10:35 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Friends,
On?27 Apr 2011 10 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o ??? <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:

<< Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.>>
?
My response:



The?moot?issue?was "Wasn't Konkani sustained by?the?writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of Imperialistic, colonial rule?" and not regarding the existence or otherwise?of Concani books prior to 1961, a year that was not at all mentioned. Now, in the light of his revelation, let me ask the same questions to Dr. Falc?o:
(a) Is there any record of anyone, Goan or European, having written Concani in Roman script in the first fifty years of that rule of 450 years, i.e. up?to 1560?
(b) Records do exist of Concani (and Marata) books in Roman script written (and printed) between 1560 and 1660. Stray copies of SOME of these have also been found, mainly in Europe. Which of these was?written by a native Goan or non-European?
(c) Could you name just a couple of?Concani books in Roman script written by anyone (European included) between 1660 and 1860? (Dr. Cunha Rivara arrived on the scene around this time.)
(d)?Could you cite?any Concani books written in Roman script that were printed in Goa between 1660 and 1928??
I trust that Dr. Falc?o will come up with specific answers to these pointed questions. It will be a great contribution to the history of literary Concani. Hence, I shall be much obliged.
?
Sotachench zoit zatolem.
?
Sebastian Borges
Santosh Helekar
2011-04-29 06:02:18 UTC
Permalink
There were several "Konkani" books published much before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani" was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939. Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951. Konkani Bhasha Prachar Sabha and Konkani Language Institute were established in Cochin.

Cheers,

Santosh

--- On Wed, 4/27/11, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Prior to 1961 books in
> Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
>
> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
>
Tony de Sa
2011-04-25 07:40:19 UTC
Permalink
From: Elvino Rodrigues <elrocks47 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] article on medium of instruction (Adv. Peter
D'souza)

Here is something concrete for any one who want to understand better why we
should save what is withering away......

COMMENT:

As I have previously said, I respect Adv. Jos Peter D'Souza's skills in
debating and semantics.

Unfortunately, 20 years down the line, the experiment to introduce Konkani
as the medium of Instruction has failed miserably since the biggest votary
of Konkani MOI - The Diocesan Society of Education and the extended Arch
Diocesan Board of Education - has decided it was all a big mistake. Without
the support of the DSE and the ABE, support for primary education in Konkani
MOI collapses.

There are a few things that one ought to consider without emotion and
without semantics.

1. Konkani needs tremendous development in the field of literature and
vocabulary before it can be used to teach science and technical subjects.

2. In other countries and within our own country, in states like Kerala and
Tamil Nadu, one can study from KG to Ph D without the support of any other
language. Can this be done in Konkani MOI except perhaps in subjects like
languages?

3. The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by the
writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?

4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the very
section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
foreign yoke?

5. If India has strengths in the BPO world, it is because India scores over
China in the field of English speaking and fluency. Doesn't the BPO world
provide employment to many Goans?

Let us view the issue in the cold light of reason and keep semantics and
emotion and passion away from something that will affect the futures of our
children.

Adv. D'Souza by his very own admission states that he was raised in a family
which spoke English and he was educated in English. Is his understanding in
any way? So also as he says did a whole generation of Indians. While Adv.
D'Souza was in Bombay, did he not learn to speak Marathi fluently, and later
in Goa Konkani too?


--

Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
floriano
2011-04-25 11:59:29 UTC
Permalink
I think that Tony has the BULL by the horns, here.

Very well said, indeed.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org



----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony de Sa" <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Article on MOI


> From: Elvino Rodrigues <elrocks47 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Goanet] article on medium of instruction (Adv. Peter
> D'souza)
>
> Here is something concrete for any one who want to understand better why
> we
> should save what is withering away......
>
> COMMENT:
>
> As I have previously said, I respect Adv. Jos Peter D'Souza's skills in
> debating and semantics.
>

>
> 3. The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
> Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
> Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by
> the
> writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
> Imperialistic, colonial rule?
>
> 4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
> on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the
> very
> section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
> foreign yoke?
>
>> Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com
icsouza
2011-04-25 15:18:06 UTC
Permalink
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
>>>Tony D'Sa wrote:
<<<Unfortunately, 20 years down the line, the experiment to introduce Konkani as the medium of Instruction has failed miserably since the biggest votary of Konkani MOI - The Diocesan Society of Education and the extended ArchDiocesan Board of Education - has decided it was all a big mistake. Without the support of the DSE and the ABE, support for primary education in Konkani MOI collapses.
**Dear Tony,
Where is it written by church authorities that the experiment of teaching Konkani as the medium of instruction "has failed miserably"?
The Church will propose the "demands" of the parents to the Government. Then, something revised and improved may come. But why should the whole process, that was followed reasonably, for years be thrown out?
There should be revision of books and methods. There is no need to teach all subjects in Konkani in advanced classes.

<<<In other countries and within our own country, in states like Kerala and
Tamil Nadu, one can study from KG to Ph D without the support of any other
language. Can this be done in Konkani MOI except perhaps in subjects like
languages?
**I would not advise anyone to do all the higher studies in Konkani, except about Konkani literature itself. The Government should cater to those students with new strategies.

<<The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by the
writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?
**I think that Konkani should be taught in both scripts, Devnagri and Roman, and both should be recognized. What is important is to develop the Konkani language. Otherwise, Konkani may be assimilated to Marathi and disappear in the belly of Maharasthra.

<<<Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the very
section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
foreign yoke?
**Konkani has been developed by missionaries in the Roman script in the past, and till today it is maintained by Goan writers. A Goan, wherever his family may be, is always exposed to Konkani. In Goa, even those who speak English at home and had English as medium of instruction, are exposed to Konkani and speak Konkani. Today, one married lady, who has studied in English medium school in Margao, and is sending her children to English medium school, hurt her toe, unwillingly of course, by dashing against a chair, and immediately exclaimed: "Avois!" I reminded her of her English background and told her that her interjection in Konkani proves that her language is Konkani, not English. This is true of most parents who are demanding English as medium of instruction for their children--they speak Konkani at home, but try to speak English (mostly "broken") with their children and dogs!...
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
George Pinto
2011-04-25 23:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Very true Tony. The current controversy over Konkani MOI is part of the larger goal of making Marathi mandatory in ALL Goan schools. In addition, force feeding Devnagiri script through Konkani MOI or Marathi on the section of the population which does not identify with the script, reflects a disdain and contempt for Romi protagonists.


--- On Mon, 4/25/11, Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote:

> 4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby
> which insists on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the
> Goan populace, the very section that kept Konkani alive through the
> 450 years they were under the foreign yoke?
Sebastian Borges
2011-04-26 07:09:10 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear friends,
?
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011? Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote and
"floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com> endorsed:
?

<<?Wasn't Konkani sustained by?the?writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?>>
>
Comment:
I think this piffle is being repeated ad nauseam without an iota of evidence. Could someone cite just a couple of Konkani books in Roman script written by Goans or non-Europeans prior to around 1860 when Cunha Rivara's "Ensaio" appeared on the scene. Was any such book published in "Imperialistic, colonial" Goa up to as late as 1928? ?Was any book in Roman script Konkani written by any European post-1660? Would be very grateful for such information.
I may add that, contrary to the notion that is sought to be propagated, it was the Catholics who led the way in publishing Konkani books in Devanagari; the Hindus only followed. It was not the other way around.?Evidence can be provided.
?
Sebastian Borges
Tony de Sa
2011-04-26 17:22:55 UTC
Permalink
From: "floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com>

I think that Tony has the BULL by the horns, here.

Comment: As long as its not by the tail, then all is fine.

;-)

--

Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão
2011-04-27 05:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.




Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Sebastian Borges
2011-04-29 05:10:35 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Friends,
On?27 Apr 2011 10 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o ??? <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:

<< Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.>>
?
My response:



The?moot?issue?was "Wasn't Konkani sustained by?the?writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of Imperialistic, colonial rule?" and not regarding the existence or otherwise?of Concani books prior to 1961, a year that was not at all mentioned. Now, in the light of his revelation, let me ask the same questions to Dr. Falc?o:
(a) Is there any record of anyone, Goan or European, having written Concani in Roman script in the first fifty years of that rule of 450 years, i.e. up?to 1560?
(b) Records do exist of Concani (and Marata) books in Roman script written (and printed) between 1560 and 1660. Stray copies of SOME of these have also been found, mainly in Europe. Which of these was?written by a native Goan or non-European?
(c) Could you name just a couple of?Concani books in Roman script written by anyone (European included) between 1660 and 1860? (Dr. Cunha Rivara arrived on the scene around this time.)
(d)?Could you cite?any Concani books written in Roman script that were printed in Goa between 1660 and 1928??
I trust that Dr. Falc?o will come up with specific answers to these pointed questions. It will be a great contribution to the history of literary Concani. Hence, I shall be much obliged.
?
Sotachench zoit zatolem.
?
Sebastian Borges
Santosh Helekar
2011-04-29 06:02:18 UTC
Permalink
There were several "Konkani" books published much before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani" was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939. Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951. Konkani Bhasha Prachar Sabha and Konkani Language Institute were established in Cochin.

Cheers,

Santosh

--- On Wed, 4/27/11, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Prior to 1961 books in
> Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
>
> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
>
Tony de Sa
2011-04-25 07:40:19 UTC
Permalink
From: Elvino Rodrigues <elrocks47 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] article on medium of instruction (Adv. Peter
D'souza)

Here is something concrete for any one who want to understand better why we
should save what is withering away......

COMMENT:

As I have previously said, I respect Adv. Jos Peter D'Souza's skills in
debating and semantics.

Unfortunately, 20 years down the line, the experiment to introduce Konkani
as the medium of Instruction has failed miserably since the biggest votary
of Konkani MOI - The Diocesan Society of Education and the extended Arch
Diocesan Board of Education - has decided it was all a big mistake. Without
the support of the DSE and the ABE, support for primary education in Konkani
MOI collapses.

There are a few things that one ought to consider without emotion and
without semantics.

1. Konkani needs tremendous development in the field of literature and
vocabulary before it can be used to teach science and technical subjects.

2. In other countries and within our own country, in states like Kerala and
Tamil Nadu, one can study from KG to Ph D without the support of any other
language. Can this be done in Konkani MOI except perhaps in subjects like
languages?

3. The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by the
writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?

4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the very
section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
foreign yoke?

5. If India has strengths in the BPO world, it is because India scores over
China in the field of English speaking and fluency. Doesn't the BPO world
provide employment to many Goans?

Let us view the issue in the cold light of reason and keep semantics and
emotion and passion away from something that will affect the futures of our
children.

Adv. D'Souza by his very own admission states that he was raised in a family
which spoke English and he was educated in English. Is his understanding in
any way? So also as he says did a whole generation of Indians. While Adv.
D'Souza was in Bombay, did he not learn to speak Marathi fluently, and later
in Goa Konkani too?


--

Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
floriano
2011-04-25 11:59:29 UTC
Permalink
I think that Tony has the BULL by the horns, here.

Very well said, indeed.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org



----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony de Sa" <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Article on MOI


> From: Elvino Rodrigues <elrocks47 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Goanet] article on medium of instruction (Adv. Peter
> D'souza)
>
> Here is something concrete for any one who want to understand better why
> we
> should save what is withering away......
>
> COMMENT:
>
> As I have previously said, I respect Adv. Jos Peter D'Souza's skills in
> debating and semantics.
>

>
> 3. The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
> Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
> Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by
> the
> writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
> Imperialistic, colonial rule?
>
> 4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
> on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the
> very
> section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
> foreign yoke?
>
>> Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com
icsouza
2011-04-25 15:18:06 UTC
Permalink
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
>>>Tony D'Sa wrote:
<<<Unfortunately, 20 years down the line, the experiment to introduce Konkani as the medium of Instruction has failed miserably since the biggest votary of Konkani MOI - The Diocesan Society of Education and the extended ArchDiocesan Board of Education - has decided it was all a big mistake. Without the support of the DSE and the ABE, support for primary education in Konkani MOI collapses.
**Dear Tony,
Where is it written by church authorities that the experiment of teaching Konkani as the medium of instruction "has failed miserably"?
The Church will propose the "demands" of the parents to the Government. Then, something revised and improved may come. But why should the whole process, that was followed reasonably, for years be thrown out?
There should be revision of books and methods. There is no need to teach all subjects in Konkani in advanced classes.

<<<In other countries and within our own country, in states like Kerala and
Tamil Nadu, one can study from KG to Ph D without the support of any other
language. Can this be done in Konkani MOI except perhaps in subjects like
languages?
**I would not advise anyone to do all the higher studies in Konkani, except about Konkani literature itself. The Government should cater to those students with new strategies.

<<The issue of education in primary school in Konkani in the Devnagri
Script needs to be settled and the bogeys surrounding the Roman Script
Konkani should be stilled once and for all. Wasn't Konkani sustained by the
writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?
**I think that Konkani should be taught in both scripts, Devnagri and Roman, and both should be recognized. What is important is to develop the Konkani language. Otherwise, Konkani may be assimilated to Marathi and disappear in the belly of Maharasthra.

<<<Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby which insists
on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the Goan populace, the very
section that kept Konkani alive through the 450 years they were under the
foreign yoke?
**Konkani has been developed by missionaries in the Roman script in the past, and till today it is maintained by Goan writers. A Goan, wherever his family may be, is always exposed to Konkani. In Goa, even those who speak English at home and had English as medium of instruction, are exposed to Konkani and speak Konkani. Today, one married lady, who has studied in English medium school in Margao, and is sending her children to English medium school, hurt her toe, unwillingly of course, by dashing against a chair, and immediately exclaimed: "Avois!" I reminded her of her English background and told her that her interjection in Konkani proves that her language is Konkani, not English. This is true of most parents who are demanding English as medium of instruction for their children--they speak Konkani at home, but try to speak English (mostly "broken") with their children and dogs!...
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
George Pinto
2011-04-25 23:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Very true Tony. The current controversy over Konkani MOI is part of the larger goal of making Marathi mandatory in ALL Goan schools. In addition, force feeding Devnagiri script through Konkani MOI or Marathi on the section of the population which does not identify with the script, reflects a disdain and contempt for Romi protagonists.


--- On Mon, 4/25/11, Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote:

> 4. Why should we be running dog lackeys of the Marathi lobby
> which insists on the Devnagri Script to subjugate a section of the
> Goan populace, the very section that kept Konkani alive through the
> 450 years they were under the foreign yoke?
Sebastian Borges
2011-04-26 07:09:10 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear friends,
?
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011? Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote and
"floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com> endorsed:
?

<<?Wasn't Konkani sustained by?the?writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of
Imperialistic, colonial rule?>>
>
Comment:
I think this piffle is being repeated ad nauseam without an iota of evidence. Could someone cite just a couple of Konkani books in Roman script written by Goans or non-Europeans prior to around 1860 when Cunha Rivara's "Ensaio" appeared on the scene. Was any such book published in "Imperialistic, colonial" Goa up to as late as 1928? ?Was any book in Roman script Konkani written by any European post-1660? Would be very grateful for such information.
I may add that, contrary to the notion that is sought to be propagated, it was the Catholics who led the way in publishing Konkani books in Devanagari; the Hindus only followed. It was not the other way around.?Evidence can be provided.
?
Sebastian Borges
Tony de Sa
2011-04-26 17:22:55 UTC
Permalink
From: "floriano" <floriano.lobo at gmail.com>

I think that Tony has the BULL by the horns, here.

Comment: As long as its not by the tail, then all is fine.

;-)

--

Tony de Sa. tonydesa at gmail dot com

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão
2011-04-27 05:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.




Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Sebastian Borges
2011-04-29 05:10:35 UTC
Permalink
?
Dear Friends,
On?27 Apr 2011 10 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o ??? <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:

<< Prior to 1961 books in
Concani existed, but not in Konkani.>>
?
My response:



The?moot?issue?was "Wasn't Konkani sustained by?the?writings of Konkani writers in the Roman Script through the 450 years of Imperialistic, colonial rule?" and not regarding the existence or otherwise?of Concani books prior to 1961, a year that was not at all mentioned. Now, in the light of his revelation, let me ask the same questions to Dr. Falc?o:
(a) Is there any record of anyone, Goan or European, having written Concani in Roman script in the first fifty years of that rule of 450 years, i.e. up?to 1560?
(b) Records do exist of Concani (and Marata) books in Roman script written (and printed) between 1560 and 1660. Stray copies of SOME of these have also been found, mainly in Europe. Which of these was?written by a native Goan or non-European?
(c) Could you name just a couple of?Concani books in Roman script written by anyone (European included) between 1660 and 1860? (Dr. Cunha Rivara arrived on the scene around this time.)
(d)?Could you cite?any Concani books written in Roman script that were printed in Goa between 1660 and 1928??
I trust that Dr. Falc?o will come up with specific answers to these pointed questions. It will be a great contribution to the history of literary Concani. Hence, I shall be much obliged.
?
Sotachench zoit zatolem.
?
Sebastian Borges
Santosh Helekar
2011-04-29 06:02:18 UTC
Permalink
There were several "Konkani" books published much before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani" was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939. Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951. Konkani Bhasha Prachar Sabha and Konkani Language Institute were established in Cochin.

Cheers,

Santosh

--- On Wed, 4/27/11, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Prior to 1961 books in
> Concani existed, but not in Konkani.
>
> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
>
Sebastian Borges
2011-05-01 11:30:34 UTC
Permalink
As often happens, FN has gone off on a handle, unnecessarily bringing in dialect and script when neither Santosh nor Dr. Ferdinando had referred to these. Moreover, in?the Konkani-English dictionary and grammar that Santosh refers to, the Konkani was written in the Kannada script. Even the religious books of the seventeenth century and the Bible of the Twentyfirst century, though both in Romi, are in different dialects.
But FN has introduced an unforgiveable untruth into the internet database. Shenoy Goembab's first book in Devanagari (Goenkaracho Mumboikar) was published in 1910 and the second (Mogachem Logn) in?1913. So why shoot off 1930 and 1940? One should not bring in one's ignorance as fact. When unsure, ask!
?
Sebastian Borges
?
?
On 1 May 2011?Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:

<<Konkani is another spelling for Concani or more accurately Concanim
(the former probably used more in English usage, and the latter more
in Portugese). If one is referring to different dialects and different
scripts, then that would need to be specified. Even the
Konknni-Konkani-Concani descriptor is not sufficient to specify the
difference, I would guess. FN
PS: Didn't Shenoy Goembab initially write in the Romi script, shifting
to Devanagari in the 1930s or 1940s?>>


Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There were several "Konkani" books published much
> before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani"
> was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei
> published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on
> Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha
> Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India
> Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939.
> Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951.

Sebastian Borges
Frederick Noronha
2011-05-01 12:13:18 UTC
Permalink
"Shenoi Goembab wrote 7 books in the Roman Script and 22 in
Devanagiri. This included short stories, dramas novels, poetry,
essays, linguistics, philosophy history."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenoi_Goembab

Please could you give a list of the books, the script and the year of
publication? Many thanks! FN

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India
http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org

On 1 May 2011 17:00, Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com> wrote:

> But FN has introduced an unforgiveable untruth
> into the internet database. Shenoy Goembab's
> first book in Devanagari (Goenkaracho Mumboikar)
> was published in 1910 and the second (Mogachem
> Logn) in?1913. So why shoot off 1930 and 1940?
> One should not bring in one's ignorance as fact.
> When unsure, ask!
Frederick Noronha
2011-05-02 06:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Dear Prof Borges, Repeating my request. Please give a list of the
writings of Shenoi Goembab, script used, and the years in which
published. Many thanks, Unsure, and hence asking! FN

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Date: 1 May 2011 17:43
Subject: Re: [Goanet] "Konkani" before 1961
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>


"Shenoi Goembab wrote 7 books in the Roman Script and 22 in
Devanagiri. This included short stories, dramas novels, poetry,
essays, linguistics, philosophy history."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenoi_Goembab

Please could you give a list of the books, the script and the year of
publication? Many thanks! FN

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India
http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org

On 1 May 2011 17:00, Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com> wrote:

> But FN has introduced an unforgiveable untruth
> into the internet database. Shenoy Goembab's
> first book in Devanagari (Goenkaracho Mumboikar)
> was published in 1910 and the second (Mogachem
> Logn) in?1913. So why shoot off 1930 and 1940?
> One should not bring in one's ignorance as fact.
> When unsure, ask!
Frederick Noronha
2011-05-02 06:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Dear Prof Borges, Repeating my request. Please give a list of the
writings of Shenoi Goembab, script used, and the years in which
published. Many thanks, Unsure, and hence asking! FN

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Date: 1 May 2011 17:43
Subject: Re: [Goanet] "Konkani" before 1961
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>


"Shenoi Goembab wrote 7 books in the Roman Script and 22 in
Devanagiri. This included short stories, dramas novels, poetry,
essays, linguistics, philosophy history."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenoi_Goembab

Please could you give a list of the books, the script and the year of
publication? Many thanks! FN

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India
http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org

On 1 May 2011 17:00, Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com> wrote:

> But FN has introduced an unforgiveable untruth
> into the internet database. Shenoy Goembab's
> first book in Devanagari (Goenkaracho Mumboikar)
> was published in 1910 and the second (Mogachem
> Logn) in?1913. So why shoot off 1930 and 1940?
> One should not bring in one's ignorance as fact.
> When unsure, ask!
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2011-05-01 12:10:53 UTC
Permalink
?Sebastian Borges?wrote:
[1] As often happens, FN has gone off on a handle,
[2] But FN has introduced an unforgiveable untruth into the internet database.
[3] One should not bring in one's ignorance as fact. When unsure, ask!


Dear Prof Borges,

As one who knows very little - in general, I find your advice to FN
(in #3 above) very appropriate for someone like me. Just so that I do
'not bring in my ignorance as fact' and as 'I am unsure', wrt #1, may
I ask you if the following phrase exists in the English language (in
Romi or in Devanagri): "Gone off on a handle"?

It was always my understanding (and I stand corrected) that "the
handle stayed put" ....but "the person flew off it". Are you referring
to a very 'frak' handle which went along with the person "on it"?

wrt #2: Accepting that FN made an error, why, may I ask, is his error
unforgiveable? Are you, Prof Borges, blemish-free?

good wishes as always

jc
Sebastian Borges
2011-05-01 13:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear JC,
Thanks for the post. Perhaps "gone off on a handle" was not the correct expression, I am not sure. I meant he went on a wrong track, unnecessarily, without a thought. If I find anything worthwhile regarding the correctness of?my expression, I shall get back to you. For the present, please accept my apologies.
Wrt #2, I find that too much of spurious "data" is getting into the internet database. And I am sure that you will agree with me on this because a lot of spurious "medical facts" are doing the same leading to several bouts of arguments in which you have yourself been involved on Goanet. When such spurious facts reach lay persons like me, they are liable to create havoc. This is why such interventions are unforgiveable. For instance, if you google for "Manipuri language five scripts" you will get Navhind Times news report of the proceedings of the Goa Legislative Assembly wherein Churchill Alemao made the claim that?Manipur Government recognises five scripts for Manipuri language. In fact, Manipuri language has only two scripts out of which only "Bengali script" is accepted in?the Official Language Act of Manipur. But an innocent googler will go away with the "knowledge" that Manipuri has five scripts all recognised by the Manipur government. This is my
fear.
I have never claimed to be infallible; I am always subject to correction.
Regards.
Sebastian Borges??

From: "J. Colaco < jc>" <colaco1 at gmail.com>
To: Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com>; frederick rico noronha goanet <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Cc: "goanet at goanet.org" <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, 1 May 2011 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] "Konkani" before 1961

?Sebastian Borges?wrote:
[1] As often happens, FN has gone off on a handle,
[2] But FN has introduced an unforgiveable untruth into the internet database.
[3] One should not bring in one's ignorance as fact. When unsure, ask!


Dear Prof Borges,

As one who knows very little - in general, I find your advice to FN
(in #3 above) very appropriate for someone like me.? Just so that I do
'not bring in my ignorance as fact' and as 'I am unsure', wrt #1, may
I ask you if the following phrase exists in the English language (in
Romi or in Devanagri): "Gone off on a handle"?

It was always my understanding (and I stand corrected) that "the
handle stayed put" ....but "the person flew off it". Are you referring
to a very 'frak' handle which went along with the person "on it"?

wrt #2: Accepting that FN made an error, why, may I ask, is his error
unforgiveable? Are you, Prof Borges, blemish-free?

good wishes as always

jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2011-05-01 13:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Dear Prof. Borges,

You are quite correct. "Gone off on a handle" is indeed not a
recognised expression in the English language, neither is 'went on a
wrong track' (went on THE wrong track).

All this to suggest that we all make errors ....and we should not IMHO
deem the non-malicious errors of others as 'unforgiveable'.

wrt the rest of your post, I'd add the following: One should always do
due diligence before accepting statements made by politicians,
partisans and by blog-websites (esp wrt medical matters).

good wishes

jc


?Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear JC,
Thanks for the post. Perhaps "gone off on a handle" was not the
correct expression, I am not sure. I meant he went on a wrong track,
unnecessarily, without a thought. If I find anything worthwhile
regarding the correctness of my expression, I shall get back to you.
For the present, please accept my apologies.
Wrt #2, I find that too much of spurious "data" is getting into the
internet database. And I am sure that you will agree with me on this
because a lot of spurious "medical facts" are doing the same leading
to several bouts of arguments in which you have yourself been involved
on Goanet. When such spurious facts reach lay persons like me, they
are liable to create havoc. This is why such interventions are
unforgiveable. For instance, if you google for "Manipuri language five
scripts" you will get Navhind Times news report of the proceedings of
the Goa Legislative Assembly wherein Churchill Alemao made the claim
that Manipur Government recognises five scripts for Manipuri language.
In fact, Manipuri language has only two scripts out of which only
"Bengali script" is accepted in the Official Language Act of Manipur.
But an innocent googler will go away with the "knowledge" that
Manipuri has five scripts all recognised by the Manipur government.
This is my fear.
I have never claimed to be infallible; I am always subject to correction.
Regards.
Sebastian Borges
Sebastian Borges
2011-05-02 05:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Dear JC,
Thanks for the corrections. I had in fact typed THE but reasoned that this would imply yhat only one wrong track was available; hence changed it to A. But on checking find that neither of these is found in the book of Idioms that I possess. This is not to justify the idiom that I used. I thought "off on a tangent" would better express what I wanted to say. But then this too is not found in my book. Perhaps my resources are limited.
Yours is no doubt a good advice to a googler; however I would not restrict it to medical matters. Other, especially Historical, matters would also demand due diligence. But don?t you think that you are putting too heavy an onus of responsibility on the innocent googler; how would a googler, five or ten years hence, know whether Churchill and Fredrick were politicians, journalists, historians or what-have-you? Instead, don?t you think we, as posters, must exercise that due diligence and thus avoid confusing the googler? And, mind you, this was extraneous "info" which was entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. It is such disservice to a future googler that I consider "unforgiveable." It is non-malicious, no doubt; but potentially dangerous and could have been avoide.
Contrary to the popular perception, K did not come into Konkani post 1961; you will find it in the first Konkani novel (Kristanv Ghorabo by Eduardo J. Bruno de Sousa) published in 1911. In that Kokani is written with a tilde on both the O and the I; similarly the A in Kristav has a tilde on A.
?
Best regards,
Sebastian Borges
?

From: "J. Colaco < jc>" <colaco1 at gmail.com>
To: Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com>
Cc: frederick rico noronha goanet <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>; "goanet at goanet.org" <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, 1 May 2011 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] "Konkani" before 1961

Dear Prof. Borges,

You are quite correct. "Gone off on a handle" is indeed not a
recognised expression in the English language, neither is 'went on a
wrong track' (went on THE wrong track).

All this to suggest that we all make errors ....and we should not IMHO
deem the non-malicious errors of others as 'unforgiveable'.

wrt the rest of your post, I'd add the following: One should always do
due diligence before accepting statements made by politicians,
partisans and by blog-websites (esp wrt medical matters).

good wishes

jc


?Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear JC,
Thanks for the post. Perhaps "gone off on a handle" was not the
correct expression, I am not sure. I meant he went on a wrong track,
unnecessarily, without a thought. If I find anything worthwhile
regarding the correctness of my expression, I shall get back to you.
For the present, please accept my apologies.
Wrt #2, I find that too much of spurious "data" is getting into the
internet database. And I am sure that you will agree with me on this
because a lot of spurious "medical facts" are doing the same leading
to several bouts of arguments in which you have yourself been involved
on Goanet. When such spurious facts reach lay persons like me, they
are liable to create havoc. This is why such interventions are
unforgiveable. For instance, if you google for "Manipuri language five
scripts" you will get Navhind Times news report of the proceedings of
the Goa Legislative Assembly wherein Churchill Alemao made the claim
that Manipur Government recognises five scripts for Manipuri language.
In fact, Manipuri language has only two scripts out of which only
"Bengali script" is accepted in the Official Language Act of Manipur.
But an innocent googler will go away with the "knowledge" that
Manipuri has five scripts all recognised by the Manipur government.
This is my fear.
I have never claimed to be infallible; I am always subject to correction.
Regards.
Sebastian Borges
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2011-05-02 11:15:25 UTC
Permalink
?Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com> wrote:
[1]: Thanks for the corrections. I had in fact typed THE but reasoned
that this would imply yhat only one wrong track was available; hence
changed it to A. But on checking find that neither of these is found
in the book of Idioms that I possess. This is not to justify the idiom
that I used. I thought "off on a tangent" would better express what I
wanted to say. But then this too is not found in my book. Perhaps my
resources are limited.

[2] Yours is no doubt a good advice to a googler; however I would not
restrict it to medical matters. Other, especially Historical, matters
would also demand due diligence. But don?t you think that you are
putting too heavy an onus of responsibility on the innocent googler;
how would a googler, five or ten years hence, know whether Churchill
and Fredrick were politicians, journalists, historians or
what-have-you? Instead, don?t you think we, as posters, must exercise
that due diligence and thus avoid confusing the googler? And, mind
you, this was extraneous "info" which was entirely irrelevant to the
discussion at hand.

[3] It is such disservice to a future googler that I consider
"unforgiveable."?It is non-malicious, no doubt; but potentially
dangerous and could have been avoide.

[4] Contrary to the popular perception, K did not come into Konkani
post 1961; you will find it in the first Konkani novel (Kristanv
Ghorabo by Eduardo J. Bruno de Sousa) published in 1911. In that
Kokani is written with a tilde on both the O and the I; similarly the
A in Kristav has a tilde on A.

===

Dear Prof Borges,

re # 1 & 2: You are quite right. "Off on a tangent" would have been
better + we all have to exercise "due diligence" in what we write,
what we say and what we assume on the basis of what is stated by third
parties.

re # 3: Without disagreeing with you, I hope that a future Googler
will have evolved enough to be not so trusting of everything he/she
reads on the internet. BTW: I am quite sure that any error (I am not
even sure it is an error) made by FN, with reference to the topic at
hand, would NOT rise to the level of being 'potentially or otherwise
dangerous'. Besides, I submit that FN has no duty of care towards the
future Googler who is innocent, naive, negligent enough to believe
everything that is written without performing the 'due diligence' we
discussed earlier.

re #4: I am not knowledgeable enough - on the point being made - to be
able to comment on it.

BTW 2: I'd state the following about Languages and Scripts: I believe
that spoken language is the method by which most of us have
communicated and continue to communicate. If we expect a certain
language to flourish, it is best written in a script which is in vogue
- with words to match. The Brits were smart (and still are) when the
decided to move away from Olde English to the modern English which
includes words that became part of the social fabric e.g. Curry, Topi,
'Vindaloo', Pundit, etc. On the other side, we have the Irish who are
trying very hard to get folks to speak and write Gaelic; Has had very
little success post the compulsory (school years) and Political
(phrases in speeches by politicians) are done with. Most Irish speak
English.

Hence, it will be in Konkani or Concani's interest to do the smart
thing; that is IF we are smart enough to release some of our rigidity
and accept the facts of life about language and communication.

In closing, a question for those who might know the answer: What is
the mother tongue of Goans?

This question has been ducked by the 'paper nationalists' who are
surely smart enough to recognise that there is a follow up question
i.e. IF Konkani is the mother tongue of Goans, WHY are Marathi schools
supported and not English schools?

Have a good week ahead.

jc

ps: I say 'paper nationalists' (above) because NO true nationalist
will ever defend the 'bakshish system' i.e. bribing as a necessary
adjunct to living in a society.
Sebastian Borges
2011-05-03 03:57:12 UTC
Permalink
________________________________
"J. Colaco < jc>" <colaco1 at gmail.com> wrote:

<<In closing, a question for those who might know the answer: What is
the mother tongue of Goans?

This question has been ducked by the 'paper nationalists' who are
surely smart enough to recognise that there is a follow up question
i.e. IF Konkani is the mother tongue of Goans, WHY are Marathi schools
supported and not English schools?>>

Dear JC,
You seem to have read my mind. Just yesterday, I have sent to Sunaparant an article on this very topic. The UNESCO recommendation is being bandied in support of the denial of grants to English medium primaries. My suggestion is to implement this recommendation in toto. Konkani is the mothertongue of the children of Goans and the language of the region or environment for those children whose mothertongue Konkani is not. Therefore only Konkani schools should qualify for grants; I understand that this is the custom that prevails in the rest of India.

Warm regards,
Sebastian Borges
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2011-05-01 13:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Dear Prof. Borges,

You are quite correct. "Gone off on a handle" is indeed not a
recognised expression in the English language, neither is 'went on a
wrong track' (went on THE wrong track).

All this to suggest that we all make errors ....and we should not IMHO
deem the non-malicious errors of others as 'unforgiveable'.

wrt the rest of your post, I'd add the following: One should always do
due diligence before accepting statements made by politicians,
partisans and by blog-websites (esp wrt medical matters).

good wishes

jc


?Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear JC,
Thanks for the post. Perhaps "gone off on a handle" was not the
correct expression, I am not sure. I meant he went on a wrong track,
unnecessarily, without a thought. If I find anything worthwhile
regarding the correctness of my expression, I shall get back to you.
For the present, please accept my apologies.
Wrt #2, I find that too much of spurious "data" is getting into the
internet database. And I am sure that you will agree with me on this
because a lot of spurious "medical facts" are doing the same leading
to several bouts of arguments in which you have yourself been involved
on Goanet. When such spurious facts reach lay persons like me, they
are liable to create havoc. This is why such interventions are
unforgiveable. For instance, if you google for "Manipuri language five
scripts" you will get Navhind Times news report of the proceedings of
the Goa Legislative Assembly wherein Churchill Alemao made the claim
that Manipur Government recognises five scripts for Manipuri language.
In fact, Manipuri language has only two scripts out of which only
"Bengali script" is accepted in the Official Language Act of Manipur.
But an innocent googler will go away with the "knowledge" that
Manipuri has five scripts all recognised by the Manipur government.
This is my fear.
I have never claimed to be infallible; I am always subject to correction.
Regards.
Sebastian Borges
Sebastian Borges
2011-05-01 13:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear JC,
Thanks for the post. Perhaps "gone off on a handle" was not the correct expression, I am not sure. I meant he went on a wrong track, unnecessarily, without a thought. If I find anything worthwhile regarding the correctness of?my expression, I shall get back to you. For the present, please accept my apologies.
Wrt #2, I find that too much of spurious "data" is getting into the internet database. And I am sure that you will agree with me on this because a lot of spurious "medical facts" are doing the same leading to several bouts of arguments in which you have yourself been involved on Goanet. When such spurious facts reach lay persons like me, they are liable to create havoc. This is why such interventions are unforgiveable. For instance, if you google for "Manipuri language five scripts" you will get Navhind Times news report of the proceedings of the Goa Legislative Assembly wherein Churchill Alemao made the claim that?Manipur Government recognises five scripts for Manipuri language. In fact, Manipuri language has only two scripts out of which only "Bengali script" is accepted in?the Official Language Act of Manipur. But an innocent googler will go away with the "knowledge" that Manipuri has five scripts all recognised by the Manipur government. This is my
fear.
I have never claimed to be infallible; I am always subject to correction.
Regards.
Sebastian Borges??

From: "J. Colaco < jc>" <colaco1 at gmail.com>
To: Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com>; frederick rico noronha goanet <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Cc: "goanet at goanet.org" <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, 1 May 2011 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] "Konkani" before 1961

?Sebastian Borges?wrote:
[1] As often happens, FN has gone off on a handle,
[2] But FN has introduced an unforgiveable untruth into the internet database.
[3] One should not bring in one's ignorance as fact. When unsure, ask!


Dear Prof Borges,

As one who knows very little - in general, I find your advice to FN
(in #3 above) very appropriate for someone like me.? Just so that I do
'not bring in my ignorance as fact' and as 'I am unsure', wrt #1, may
I ask you if the following phrase exists in the English language (in
Romi or in Devanagri): "Gone off on a handle"?

It was always my understanding (and I stand corrected) that "the
handle stayed put" ....but "the person flew off it". Are you referring
to a very 'frak' handle which went along with the person "on it"?

wrt #2: Accepting that FN made an error, why, may I ask, is his error
unforgiveable? Are you, Prof Borges, blemish-free?

good wishes as always

jc
Frederick Noronha
2011-05-01 12:13:18 UTC
Permalink
"Shenoi Goembab wrote 7 books in the Roman Script and 22 in
Devanagiri. This included short stories, dramas novels, poetry,
essays, linguistics, philosophy history."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenoi_Goembab

Please could you give a list of the books, the script and the year of
publication? Many thanks! FN

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India
http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org

On 1 May 2011 17:00, Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com> wrote:

> But FN has introduced an unforgiveable untruth
> into the internet database. Shenoy Goembab's
> first book in Devanagari (Goenkaracho Mumboikar)
> was published in 1910 and the second (Mogachem
> Logn) in?1913. So why shoot off 1930 and 1940?
> One should not bring in one's ignorance as fact.
> When unsure, ask!
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2011-05-01 12:10:53 UTC
Permalink
?Sebastian Borges?wrote:
[1] As often happens, FN has gone off on a handle,
[2] But FN has introduced an unforgiveable untruth into the internet database.
[3] One should not bring in one's ignorance as fact. When unsure, ask!


Dear Prof Borges,

As one who knows very little - in general, I find your advice to FN
(in #3 above) very appropriate for someone like me. Just so that I do
'not bring in my ignorance as fact' and as 'I am unsure', wrt #1, may
I ask you if the following phrase exists in the English language (in
Romi or in Devanagri): "Gone off on a handle"?

It was always my understanding (and I stand corrected) that "the
handle stayed put" ....but "the person flew off it". Are you referring
to a very 'frak' handle which went along with the person "on it"?

wrt #2: Accepting that FN made an error, why, may I ask, is his error
unforgiveable? Are you, Prof Borges, blemish-free?

good wishes as always

jc
Santosh Helekar
2011-05-01 19:28:52 UTC
Permalink
On 1 May 2011?Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Konkani is another spelling for Concani or more accurately Concanim
> (the former probably used more in English usage, and the latter more
> in Portugese).
>

The word "Concanim" is no more accurate than the word "Concani", as far as usage before 1961 is concerned. Both words were used in the Portuguese language before 1961. For example, a book entitled "Grammatica Da Lingua Concani" was published in 1859.

Cheers,

Santosh
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2011-05-01 23:24:07 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar wrote: The word "Concanim" is no more accurate than the
word "Concani", as far as usage before 1961 is concerned. Both words were
used in the Portuguese language before 1961. For example, a book entitled
"Grammatica Da Lingua Concani" was published in 1859

RESPONSE:

My dear Santoahbab,

That was my 'proof-reading' error. The original script said "Concanim" and
the lino-type chap forgot the "m" at the end and just typed it as "Concani",

I was given the task of proof-reading the book, and "mishtake-became'.

ps: IF I could have been (as the venerable Bernado Colaco of Macau states) a
member of a Bandodkar "board" to suppress Konkani and promote Marathi in Goa
when I was still in high school ...in Poona, why could I not have been
proof-reading the above book before my grand-parents were born?
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2011-05-01 23:24:07 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar wrote: The word "Concanim" is no more accurate than the
word "Concani", as far as usage before 1961 is concerned. Both words were
used in the Portuguese language before 1961. For example, a book entitled
"Grammatica Da Lingua Concani" was published in 1859

RESPONSE:

My dear Santoahbab,

That was my 'proof-reading' error. The original script said "Concanim" and
the lino-type chap forgot the "m" at the end and just typed it as "Concani",

I was given the task of proof-reading the book, and "mishtake-became'.

ps: IF I could have been (as the venerable Bernado Colaco of Macau states) a
member of a Bandodkar "board" to suppress Konkani and promote Marathi in Goa
when I was still in high school ...in Poona, why could I not have been
proof-reading the above book before my grand-parents were born?
Sebastian Borges
2011-05-03 03:37:04 UTC
Permalink
On?Sun, 1 May 2011 17:43:18 +0530
Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:

"Shenoi Goembab wrote 7 books in the Roman Script and 22 in
Devanagiri. This included short stories, dramas novels, poetry,
essays, linguistics, philosophy history."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenoi_Goembab

Please could you give a list of the books, the script and the year of
publication? Many thanks! FN

and

On Mon, 2 May 2011 11:44:29 +0530
Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:


Dear Prof Borges, Repeating my request. Please give a list of the
writings of Shenoi Goembab, script used, and the years in which
published. Many thanks, Unsure, and hence asking! FN



Dear FN,
Please note that (a) ?I am not on internet 24x7; it is not my bread and butter. There are other not as trivial matter which require my attention.? (b) I am not a walkie-talkie encyclopedia?? (c) The info you asked needed some digging and typing as you can see. Therefore I do not appreciate your sending a reminder in less than 24 hours, as can be seen from the dates and?timings recorded against your posts. It was not a life-and-death matter, either. Or were you being sarcastic? Anyway, here is the info you asked:
?
Shenoy Goembab?s Published Literature
?
A.? In Roman script:- Translations of Lamb?s Tales from Shakespeare.
1. Rajput? Hamlet Ani? Tachea? Bapaychem? Bhut [Tr. Hamlet](1908)
?
1. (a) ??Gore? Bailecho? Kallo? Ghov [Tr. Othello]
(b)???? Mudiam khatir? Ghova-bailanchem? Zhogddem [Tr. Merchant of Venice]
(c)???? Dhuvanchi Porikxa [Tr. King Lear] (-?-) Year not printed in the Xerox that I have.
?
??????? 3.? ???(a) Zunvllea? Bhavancho? Ghuspagodoll [Tr. Comedy of Errors]
?????????????? ?(b) Agul?leachem? nivllonn [Tr. Taming of the Shrew]
??????????????? (c ) Ranniechem? Jivem? Bavlem [Tr. Winter?s Tale] (1914)
?
??????????? The following Tales are listed but I do not have copies.
??????????????? (a)? Ghatmaro? Ixtt [Tr. - ? -]
??????????????? (b)? Bailechi? Porikxa [Tr. - ? -]
??????????????? (c)? Mogache? Piddechem? Okhod [Tr. - ? -]
??????????????? (d)? Bhusmare? Alebhav? Kolebhav [Tr. - ? -]
?
?????????? These were published as separate books:
(a)???? Jaducho? Zunvo [Tr. The Tempest] (Roman (- ? -), then Devanagari in 1968)
(b)???? Bakavlechem? Ful? (Roman - ? - and Devanagari - ? -)
?
B.?? In Devanagari script:-
1. Goenkaracho? Mumbaikar (1910)
2. Mogachem? Logn [Adaptation of Moliere?s Le Medecin Malgre Lui] (1913, 2nd. edn. 1938)
3. Goenkaranchi? Goyam bhaili? Vosnnuk (1928)
4. Gomantopanixot? vol. I (1928)
5. Konknni? Bhaxechem? Zoit (1930)
6. Gomantopanixot? vol. II (1933)
7. Bhurgeanlo? Ixtt (1935)
8. Contributions to ?Novem Goem?? (Quarterly) vols. 1, 2, 3.(1934 ? 1939)
9. Zilba? Ranno [Based on a story from Arabian Nights](1936, 1950)
10. Konknni? Poilem? Pustok (1939)
11. Punnyatmo? Ram? Kamoti (1939)
12. Konknni? Nadxastr (1940)
13. Bhurgeanlem? Veakoronn (1941)
14. Abe? Faria (1945)
15. Konknnichi? Veakoronni? Bandavoll (1946)
16. Konknni? Mullavem? Pustok (1947)
17. Yevkar? Odheokxalem? Ulovop (1947)
18. Povnanchem? Toplem [Adaptation of Moliere?s L?Avare] (1948)
19. Albuquerquan? Goem? Koxem? Jikhlem (1955)
20. Konknni? Vidyartheank (1958)
21. Shri? Bhogvontalem? Git (1959)
22. Balipatanacho? Sod (1962)
?
Some more writings which are listed but not seen by me; don?t know when and where published:
1. Gita? Ken?na? Rochli? (essay)
2. Nimazgo? (article)
3. Dr.? Froilano do? Melo? Hanchea? Yevkarachem? Ulovop (address)
4. Shri? V. N. Mayenkar? hanchea? Potrak? Zap? (letter)
Hope this meets with your approval.
Regards.
Sebastian Borges?
Frederick Noronha
2011-05-03 19:13:10 UTC
Permalink
Dear Prof Borges, This is interesting information. Thanks for taking
the trouble to compile it.

If I could add a comment and a query:

(i) It would be helpful if someone shared this information online.
Maybe on the Shenoy Goembab Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenoi_Goembab
If you can do so, please do. If not, give me permission to share the
information and I'll add it there.

(ii) Could you enlighten us on why Goembab started by writing in Romi
Konkani and then shifted to Devanagari? Just curious... FN

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India
http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org

On 3 May 2011 09:07, Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Please note that (a) ?I am not on internet 24x7; it is not my bread and butter. There are other not as trivial matter which require my attention.? (b) I am not a walkie-talkie encyclopedia?? (c) The info you asked needed some digging and typing as you can see. Therefore I do not appreciate your sending a reminder in less than 24 hours, as can be seen from the dates and?timings recorded against your posts. It was not a life-and-death matter, either. Or were you being sarcastic? Anyway, here is the info you asked:
>
> Shenoy Goembab?s Published Literature
>
> A.? In Roman script:- Translations of Lamb?s Tales from Shakespeare.
> ? ? ? ?1. Rajput? Hamlet Ani? Tachea? Bapaychem? Bhut [Tr. Hamlet](1908)
>
> ? ? ? ?1. (a) ??Gore? Bailecho? Kallo? Ghov [Tr. Othello]
> (b)???? Mudiam khatir? Ghova-bailanchem? Zhogddem [Tr. Merchant of Venice]
> (c)???? Dhuvanchi Porikxa [Tr. King Lear] (-?-) Year not printed in the Xerox that I have.
>
> ??????? 3.? ???(a) Zunvllea? Bhavancho? Ghuspagodoll [Tr. Comedy of Errors]
> ?????????????? ?(b) Agul?leachem? nivllonn [Tr. Taming of the Shrew]
> ??????????????? (c ) Ranniechem? Jivem? Bavlem [Tr. Winter?s Tale] (1914)
>
> ??????????? The following Tales are listed but I do not have copies.
> ??????????????? (a)? Ghatmaro? Ixtt [Tr. - ? -]
> ??????????????? (b)? Bailechi? Porikxa [Tr. - ? -]
> ??????????????? (c)? Mogache? Piddechem? Okhod [Tr. - ? -]
> ??????????????? (d)? Bhusmare? Alebhav? Kolebhav [Tr. - ? -]
>
> ?????????? These were published as separate books:
> (a)???? Jaducho? Zunvo [Tr. The Tempest] (Roman (- ? -), then Devanagari in 1968)
> (b)???? Bakavlechem? Ful? (Roman - ? - and Devanagari - ? -)
>
> B.?? In Devanagari script:-
> ? ? ? ?1. Goenkaracho? Mumbaikar (1910)
> ? ? ? ?2. Mogachem? Logn [Adaptation of Moliere?s Le Medecin Malgre Lui] (1913, 2nd. edn. 1938)
> ? ? ? ?3. Goenkaranchi? Goyam bhaili? Vosnnuk (1928)
> ? ? ? ?4. Gomantopanixot? vol. I (1928)
> ? ? ? ?5. Konknni? Bhaxechem? Zoit (1930)
> ? ? ? ?6. Gomantopanixot? vol. II (1933)
> ? ? ? ?7. Bhurgeanlo? Ixtt (1935)
> ? ? ? ?8. Contributions to ?Novem Goem?? (Quarterly) vols. 1, 2, 3.(1934 ? 1939)
> ? ? ? ?9. Zilba? Ranno [Based on a story from Arabian Nights](1936, 1950)
> ? ? ? ?10. Konknni? Poilem? Pustok (1939)
> ? ? ? ?11. Punnyatmo? Ram? Kamoti (1939)
> ? ? ? ?12. Konknni? Nadxastr (1940)
> ? ? ? ?13. Bhurgeanlem? Veakoronn (1941)
> ? ? ? ?14. Abe? Faria (1945)
> ? ? ? ?15. Konknnichi? Veakoronni? Bandavoll (1946)
> ? ? ? ?16. Konknni? Mullavem? Pustok (1947)
> ? ? ? ?17. Yevkar? Odheokxalem? Ulovop (1947)
> ? ? ? ?18. Povnanchem? Toplem [Adaptation of Moliere?s L?Avare] (1948)
> ? ? ? ?19. Albuquerquan? Goem? Koxem? Jikhlem (1955)
> ? ? ? ?20. Konknni? Vidyartheank (1958)
> ? ? ? ?21. Shri? Bhogvontalem? Git (1959)
> ? ? ? ?22. Balipatanacho? Sod (1962)
>
> Some more writings which are listed but not seen by me; don?t know when and where published:
> ? ? ? ?1. Gita? Ken?na? Rochli? (essay)
> ? ? ? ?2. Nimazgo? (article)
> ? ? ? ?3. Dr.? Froilano do? Melo? Hanchea? Yevkarachem? Ulovop (address)
> ? ? ? ?4. Shri? V. N. Mayenkar? hanchea? Potrak? Zap? (letter)
> Hope this meets with your approval.
> Regards.
> Sebastian Borges
icsouza
2011-05-03 15:40:25 UTC
Permalink
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
On Behalf Of Sebastian Borges
_______________________________
"J. Colaco < jc>" <colaco1 at gmail.com> wrote:

<<In closing, a question for those who might know the answer: What is
the mother tongue of Goans?

This question has been ducked by the 'paper nationalists' who are
surely smart enough to recognise that there is a follow up question
i.e. IF Konkani is the mother tongue of Goans, WHY are Marathi schools
supported and not English schools?>>

Dear JC,
You seem to have read my mind. Just yesterday, I have sent to Sunaparant an article on this very topic. The UNESCO recommendation is being bandied in support of the denial of grants to English medium primaries. My suggestion is to implement this recommendation in toto. Konkani is the mothertongue of the children of Goans and the language of the region or environment for those children whose mothertongue Konkani is not. Therefore only Konkani schools should qualify for grants; I understand that this is the custom that prevails in the rest of India.
**Dear Sebastian, I do agree with you totally that Konkani is the mother-tongue of the children of Goans and that only Konkani medium schools are qualified for grants. There are not two mother-tongues. Let the Government study the problem with better care. Problems of text books and teachers should be solved. Parents are free to send their children to the schools of their choice.
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
Frederick Noronha
2011-05-03 19:09:52 UTC
Permalink
Konkani is an "Indo-Aryan" language. I guess you guys should take your
logic one step further and also work to banish all non-Indo-Aryans
out of Goa! If not, why not? FN

On 3 May 2011 21:10, <icsouza at bsnl.in> wrote:
> Dear JC,
> You seem to have read my mind. Just yesterday, I have sent to Sunaparant an article on this very topic. The UNESCO recommendation is being bandied in support of the denial of grants to English medium primaries. My suggestion is to implement this recommendation in toto. Konkani is the mothertongue of the children of Goans and the language of the region or environment for those children whose mothertongue Konkani is not. Therefore only Konkani schools should qualify for grants; I understand that this is the custom that prevails in the rest of India.

> **Dear Sebastian, I do agree with you totally that Konkani is the mother-tongue of the children of Goans and that only Konkani medium schools are qualified for grants. There are not two mother-tongues. Let the Government study the problem with better care. Problems of text books and teachers should be solved. Parents are free to send their children to the schools of their choice.
> Regards.
> Fr.Ivo
eric pinto
2011-05-04 12:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Fred: Dashrat's arrow (ban) garnered this corner of the coast for our folk !?
Banvalle is now under notice from rising tides, as is Britona and the Bastora
creek.

? Three quarters of our frontier is with the Dravid Carnatic. They amble across
with abandon, then procure voter cards with the same facility.?? At fifty
percent and growing, I fear the Porvorim Assembly hall will not be occupied by
folk who resemble us, in the near future.???? eric.
?
---------------------------------
Konkani is an "Indo-Aryan" language. I guess you guys should take your
logic one step further and also work to banish all non-Indo-Aryans
out of Goa! If not, why not? FN
Frederick Noronha
2011-05-04 19:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eric, With a melting pot like Goa, I wonder how we can be
serious about "purity" of language and "race". Anyway, who defines
"folks who resemble us"? We're we all migrants and/or invaders in our
times? FN

On 4 May 2011 17:55, eric pinto <ericpinto2 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Fred: Dashrat's arrow (ban) garnered this corner of the coast for our folk !
> Banvalle is now under notice from rising tides, as is Britona and the Bastora
> creek.
>
> ? Three quarters of our frontier is with the Dravid Carnatic. They amble across
> with abandon, then procure voter cards with the same facility.?? At fifty
> percent and growing, I fear the Porvorim Assembly hall will not be occupied by
> folk who resemble us, in the near future.???? eric.
>
> ---------------------------------
> Konkani is an "Indo-Aryan" language. I guess you guys should take your
> logic one step further and also work to banish all non-Indo-Aryans
> out of Goa! If not, why not? FN
patricia pereira
2011-05-07 19:32:53 UTC
Permalink
I like your comments Fred - refreshing in this world of "pure wool" (an expression once used in Quebec, perhaps still is) and "commoners" finding their princes.


> From: fredericknoronha at gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 00:51:42 +0530
> To: goanet at lists.goanet.org
> Subject: Re: [Goanet] Aryan Goa !
>
> Dear Eric, With a melting pot like Goa, I wonder how we can be
> serious about "purity" of language and "race". Anyway, who defines
> "folks who resemble us"? We're we all migrants and/or invaders in our
> times? FN
>
> On 4 May 2011 17:55, eric pinto <ericpinto2 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Fred: Dashrat's arrow (ban) garnered this corner of the coast for our folk !
> > Banvalle is now under notice from rising tides, as is Britona and the Bastora
> > creek.
> >
> > Three quarters of our frontier is with the Dravid Carnatic. They amble across
> > with abandon, then procure voter cards with the same facility. At fifty
> > percent and growing, I fear the Porvorim Assembly hall will not be occupied by
> > folk who resemble us, in the near future. eric.
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Konkani is an "Indo-Aryan" language. I guess you guys should take your
> > logic one step further and also work to banish all non-Indo-Aryans
> > out of Goa! If not, why not? FN
Santosh Helekar
2011-05-04 20:03:19 UTC
Permalink
--- On Tue, 5/3/11, Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Konkani is an "Indo-Aryan" language. I guess you guys should take your >logic one step further and also work to banish all non-Indo-Aryans
> out of Goa! If not, why not? FN
>

It would be hard to locate any non-Indo-Aryans in Goa. Almost everybody in Goa has Indo-Aryan DNA in his/her cells. The folks from Bihar and U.P. are likely to have more of it. The Russians are likely to have it as well, albeit in more ancestral sequences.

Cheers,

Santosh
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2011-05-04 21:31:34 UTC
Permalink
[1] Frederick Noronha wrote: Konkani is an "Indo-Aryan" language.

RESPONSE: That 'thing' which is being bandied about, especially in the
Catholic churches, as "Konkani" is NOT a language - it is a awful
sounding nasal dialect of Marathi.


[2] Santosh Helekar wrote: It would be hard to locate any
non-Indo-Aryans in Goa.

RESPONSE: Not for me. An entire settlement of Kunbis exists in the
hills - not too far from where my parents lived.

jc
Sebastian Borges
2011-05-05 03:55:53 UTC
Permalink
Could someone point out the connection of FN's post with the two that he has appended thereto? These two posts deal with mothertongue and medium of instruction at the primary school level; they contain no mention of "Indo-Aryan language," "banishment" or anything of this sort. And FN's post has no mention of "medium of instruction" or anything relevant to it. Banishment of non-Indo-Aryans may be his problem. But why rope in the two posters? What logic is he referring to? Has FN flipped his lid? Just concerned.
Sebastian Borges?

On Wed, 4 May 2011 00:39:52 +0530?Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:


<<Konkani is an "Indo-Aryan" language. I guess you guys should take your
logic one step further and also work to banish all non-Indo-Aryans
out of Goa! If not, why not? FN>>

On 3 May 2011 21:10,? <icsouza at bsnl.in> wrote:
> Dear JC,
> You seem to have read my mind. Just yesterday, I have sent to Sunaparant an article on this very topic. The UNESCO recommendation is being bandied in support of the denial of grants to English medium primaries. My suggestion is to implement this recommendation in toto. Konkani is the mothertongue of the children of Goans and the language of the region or environment for those children whose mothertongue Konkani is not. Therefore only Konkani schools should qualify for grants; I understand that this is the custom that prevails in the rest of India.

> **Dear Sebastian, I do agree with you totally that Konkani is the mother-tongue of the children of Goans and that only Konkani medium schools are qualified for grants. There are not two mother-tongues. Let the Government study the problem with better care. Problems of text books and teachers should be solved. Parents are free to send their children to the schools of
their choice.
> Regards.
> Fr.Ivo

Sebastian Borges
Sebastian Borges
2011-05-05 04:27:04 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 4 May 2011 00:43:10 +0530?Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:

<<(i) It would be helpful if someone shared this information online.
Maybe on the Shenoy Goembab Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenoi_Goembab
If you can do so, please do. If not, give me permission to share the
information and I'll add it there.

(ii) Could you enlighten us on why Goembab started by writing in Romi
Konkani and then shifted to Devanagari? Just curious... FN>>

Reply:
Dear FN,
(i) Please feel free to do whatever you like with the info; it is not my property.
(ii) Please read the biography, "Shenoi Goembab" (in Konkani) by R. N. Naik, or its Translation in English (2007) by S. M. Borges, both published by Sahitya Akademi, New Delhi.
Regards,
Sebastian Borges
Frederick Noronha
2011-05-07 09:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Dear Prof Borges, Thanks for your reply and pointing out to the book.
But, for the purpose of continuing this debate here, what would be
*your* reply? If take the debate from the online world to the printed
page, it wouldn't allow as many to participate. FN

On 5 May 2011 09:57, Sebastian Borges <s_m_borges at yahoo.com> wrote:
> (ii) Could you enlighten us on why Goembab started by writing in Romi
> Konkani and then shifted to Devanagari? Just curious... FN>>
>
> Reply:
> Dear FN,
> (ii) Please read the biography, "Shenoi Goembab" (in Konkani) by R. N. Naik, or its Translation in English (2007) by S. M. Borges, both published by Sahitya Akademi, New Delhi.
> Regards,
> Sebastian Borges
Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão
2011-05-05 05:45:44 UTC
Permalink
Konkani if derived from
Sanskrit, is not a an ?Indo-Aryan? language. Sanskrit is a ?Indo-European?
language. :

http://www.indoaryans.org/

http://www.indhistory.com/aryan.html

Unless
one wants to say it has derived from Kannada, Tamil, Malayalam or Telegu.




Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Frederick Noronha
2011-05-05 08:20:04 UTC
Permalink
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=1333-16

and

Konkani

A language of India

ISO 639-3: knn

Population 4,000,000 in India.
Population total all countries: 4,004,490.
Region North and central coastal strip of Maharashtra; Karnataka;
Dadra and Nagar Haveli; Kerala. Also in Canada.
Alternate names Bankoti, Concorinum, Cugani, Central Konkan, North
Konkan, Konkan Standard, Konkanese, Konkani Mangalorean, Kunabi
Dialects Agari of Kolaba, Parabhi (Kayasthi, Damani), Koli, Kiristav,
Dhanagari, Bhandari, Thakuri (Thakari, Thakri, Thakua, Thakura),
Karhadi, Sangamesvari (Bakoti, Bankoti), Ghati (Maoli), Mahari (Dhed,
Holia, Parvari), Chitapavani. Dialects closely related; Chitapavani
recognized as Standard Konkani. Local fishermen use the Koli dialect
(Hukkeri). Related to Katkari [kfu] (dialects: Kathodi, Katvadi),
Varli [vav], Phudagi [phd], Samvedi [smv], Mangelas.
Classification Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Indo-Aryan, Southern zone, Konkani
A member of macrolanguage Konkani [kok] (India).
Language use Official language.
Language development Newspapers. Radio programs. Films. Dictionary.
Grammar. Bible: 1997.
Writing system Devanagari script, official script. Kannada script, no
longer in use. Latin script, no longer in use.
Comments Hindu, Christian.
This web edition of the Ethnologue contains all the content of the
print edition and may be cited as:
Lewis, M. Paul (ed.), 2009. Ethnologue: Languages of the World,
Sixteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International. Online version:
http://www.ethnologue.com/.

2011/5/5 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com>:
> Konkani if derived from Sanskrit, is not a an ?Indo-Aryan? language.
> Sanskrit is a ?Indo-European? language. :
>
> http://www.indoaryans.org/
>
> http://www.indhistory.com/aryan.html
>
> Unless one wants to say it has derived from Kannada, Tamil, Malayalam or
> Telegu.
>
> Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão
2011-05-05 17:57:40 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 05 May 2011 01:49:22 -0700 Frederick Noronha, wrote :
<<< http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=1333-16


And Konkani A language of India ISO 639-3: knn Population 4,000,000 in
India. Population total all countries: 4,004,490.



Region North and
central coastal strip of Maharashtra; Karnataka;Dadra and Nagar Haveli; Kerala. Also in Canada.



Alternate names
Bankoti, Concorinum, Cugani, Central Konkan, North Konkan, Konkan
Standard, Konkanese, Konkani Mangalorean, Kunabi Dialects Agari of
Kolaba, Parabhi (Kayasthi, Damani), Koli, Kiristav,









Dhanagari, Bhandari, Thakuri (Thakari, Thakri, Thakua, Thakura),Karhadi, Sangamesvari (Bakoti, Bankoti), Ghati (Maoli), Mahari
(Dhed, Holia, Parvari), Chitapavani. Dialects closely related; Chitapavani recognized as Standard Konkani. Local fishermen use the Koli dialect (Hukkeri). Related to Katkari [kfu] (dialects: Kathodi, Katvadi),







Varli [vav], Phudagi [phd], Samvedi [smv], Mangelas. Classification
Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Indo-Aryan, Southern zone, Konkani A member
of macrolanguage Konkani [kok] (India). Language use
Official language. Language development Newspapers. Radio programs. Films. Dictionary. Grammar. Bible: 1997.

Writing system
Devanagari script, official script. Kannada script, no

longer in use. Latin script, no longer in use?..>>>>



COMMENT : A very informative website, where it states: ? Latin
script, no longer in use??

How many Goans will agree to this statement? How many Goanetter
agree to this statement?

A website fed by Maharashtra protagonists? I wonder!




Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
Santosh Helekar
2011-05-06 01:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Admin Noronha is right. Konknni is an Indo-Aryan language. It is also an Indo-European and Indo-Iranian language because these are the supersets (i.e. family and group, respectively) from which all Indo-Aryan languages have descended. In fact, in the study of human cultural evolution Aryans is an older term for what are now called Indo-Europeans. The southern Indian languages such as Tamil and Malayalam do not belong to the Indo-Aryan branch of languages.

Cheers,

Santosh

--- On Thu, 5/5/11, Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=1333-16
>
> and
>
> Konkani
>
> A language of India
>
> ISO 639-3: knn
>
> Population ??? 4,000,000 in India.
> Population total all countries: 4,004,490.
> Region ??? North and central coastal strip
> of Maharashtra; Karnataka;
> Dadra and Nagar Haveli; Kerala. Also in Canada.
> Alternate names? ??? Bankoti,
> Concorinum, Cugani, Central Konkan, North
> Konkan, Konkan Standard, Konkanese, Konkani Mangalorean,
> Kunabi
> Dialects ??? Agari of Kolaba, Parabhi
> (Kayasthi, Damani), Koli, Kiristav,
> Dhanagari, Bhandari, Thakuri (Thakari, Thakri, Thakua,
> Thakura),
> Karhadi, Sangamesvari (Bakoti, Bankoti), Ghati (Maoli),
> Mahari (Dhed,
> Holia, Parvari), Chitapavani. Dialects closely related;
> Chitapavani
> recognized as Standard Konkani. Local fishermen use the
> Koli dialect
> (Hukkeri). Related to Katkari [kfu] (dialects: Kathodi,
> Katvadi),
> Varli [vav], Phudagi [phd], Samvedi [smv], Mangelas.
> Classification ??? Indo-European,
> Indo-Iranian, Indo-Aryan, Southern zone, Konkani
> A member of macrolanguage Konkani [kok] (India).
> Language use ??? Official language.
> Language development ??? Newspapers. Radio
> programs. Films. Dictionary.
> Grammar. Bible: 1997.
> Writing system ??? Devanagari script,
> official script. Kannada script, no
> longer in use. Latin script, no longer in use.
> Comments ??? Hindu, Christian.
> This web edition of the Ethnologue contains all the content
> of the
> print edition and may be cited as:
> Lewis, M. Paul (ed.), 2009. Ethnologue: Languages of the
> World,
> Sixteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International. Online
> version:
> http://www.ethnologue.com/.
>
> 2011/5/5 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o <drferdinando at hotmail.com>:
> > Konkani if derived from Sanskrit, is not a an
> ?Indo-Aryan? language.
> > Sanskrit is a ?Indo-European? language. :
> >
> > http://www.indoaryans.org/
> >
> > http://www.indhistory.com/aryan.html
> >
> > Unless one wants to say it has derived from Kannada,
> Tamil, Malayalam or
> > Telegu.
> >
> > Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
>
Frederick Noronha
2011-05-06 18:30:57 UTC
Permalink
So what would have been the language of Goa before the
Indo-Aryan/Indo-European/Indo-Iranian came to hold sway here? FN

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India
http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org


On 6 May 2011 07:07, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Admin Noronha is right. Konknni is an Indo-Aryan language. It is also an
> Indo-European and Indo-Iranian language because these are the supersets
> (i.e. family and group, respectively) from which all Indo-Aryan languages
> have descended. In fact, in the study of human cultural evolution Aryans is
> an older term for what are now called Indo-Europeans. The southern Indian
> languages such as Tamil and Malayalam do not belong to the Indo-Aryan branch
> of languages.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Santosh
>
icsouza
2011-05-06 14:38:08 UTC
Permalink
Dear Goanneters,
I think that the problem of education has been "politicized". 1. Konkani is the language of Goans, the language of Goa State, it is part and parcel of Goan identity. Then why grants are given also to "regional languages"? Why there should not be only Konkani medium schools, not Marathi medium schools, which started in the time of the Portuguese? Why has the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly stated that "for the Government Konkani ani Marathi have equal status"? Only Konkani is the official language, not Marathi. No equal status to Marathi. Nobody is against Marathi. I studied also Marathi for on here.
2. If grants are given for "regional languages" (like Marathi, Kanada, Urdu"), why not also for English. English is alive in Goa much more than Marathi, Kannada and Urdu.
3. Grants may not be given to English medium schools, in order to promote Konkani. But then also Marathi should not be promoted by the Government of Goa State.
4. Konkani should be taught in Devanagari and Roman scripts. Children will learn both scripts easily. They will learn easily English and Hindi. Konkani should be promoted also in Roman script. Otherwise, it will be written only in Devanagari script, it will be marathized. and may disappear in Maharashtra's belly. No dialect sould be promoted: antruzi, bardexi or saxttichi. They will continue with their natural evolution.
5. Konkani is a language, it is not a dialect. Some nasalization may have been introduced in the course of time, for example, panvlam, instead of pavol, pavlam.
There should be some uniformity in Konkani writing. This may take some time.
6. Our parents may not understand the problems that may be created for the future generations. We have to be cautious. Political leaders are misleading.
Let us be united and firm.
Fr.Ivo
Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 21:10:25 +0530
From: <icsouza at bsnl.in>
>From JC: IF Konkani is the mother tongue of Goans, WHY are Marathi schools
> supported and not English schools?>>

> **Dear Sebastian, I do agree with you totally that Konkani is the mother-tongue of the children of Goans and that only Konkani medium schools are qualified for grants. There are not two mother-tongues. Let the Government study the problem with better care. Problems of text books and teachers should be solved. Parents are free to send their children to the schools of their choice.
> Regards.
> Fr.Ivo
Santosh Helekar
2011-05-07 16:20:06 UTC
Permalink
Goa most likely had Austro-Asiatic and Dravidian settlers before the Indo-Aryans arrived. So extinct languages of these earlier settlers such as Mundari (Austro-Asiatic) and Naiki (Dravidian) might have been spoken in Goa.

Cheers,

Santosh

--- On Fri, 5/6/11, Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So what would have been the language
> of Goa before the
> Indo-Aryan/Indo-European/Indo-Iranian came to hold sway
> here? FN
>
Sebastian Borges
2011-05-08 04:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Dear FN,
I do not understand why you want to waste your time in futile discussion on the motive of a person (neither of us knew personally) for doing a certain thing or behaving in a certain way. Does it really matter today?
You had asked: <<Could you enlighten us on why Goembab started by writing in Romi?Konkani and then shifted to Devanagari? Just curious... FN>> Assuming that your curiosity is genuine, I directed you to a book which contains an answer to your query. I do not know whether R.N. Naik obtained the information directly from Goembab or from someone else in whom Goembab had confided it. For all I care, it could as well have been RNN's guesswork. In such circumstances, what sort of discussion could we have, to what purpose? Please use your time in more productive pursuits. I have no time to spare for pointless discussions.
Regards,
Sebastian Borges

On Sat, 7 May 2011 14:38:35 +0530,?Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!"
? <<Dear Prof Borges, Thanks for your reply and pointing out to the book.?But, for the purpose of continuing this debate here, what would be?*your* reply? If take the debate from the online world to the printed?page, it wouldn't allow as many to participate. FN

> Sebastian Borges
Marshall Mendonza
2011-05-10 15:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Prof Sebastian Borges:

Therefore only Konkani schools should qualify for grants; I understand that
this is the custom that prevails in the rest of India.



Response:

In Maharashtra even English medium schools get government grants. However,
some years back, the government stopped giving grants to new English medium
schools due to funds crunch. Its logic being that only the well off send
their children to English medium schools. On the contrary, maidservants,
peons, vegetable vendors, and others from the lower income groups have
started to send their children to English medium schools, even paying the
high fees. As a result, a number of vernacular schools have either converted
to English medium to cope up with the heavy demand or simply shut down.



Regards,



Marshall
Sebastian Borges
2011-05-01 11:30:34 UTC
Permalink
As often happens, FN has gone off on a handle, unnecessarily bringing in dialect and script when neither Santosh nor Dr. Ferdinando had referred to these. Moreover, in?the Konkani-English dictionary and grammar that Santosh refers to, the Konkani was written in the Kannada script. Even the religious books of the seventeenth century and the Bible of the Twentyfirst century, though both in Romi, are in different dialects.
But FN has introduced an unforgiveable untruth into the internet database. Shenoy Goembab's first book in Devanagari (Goenkaracho Mumboikar) was published in 1910 and the second (Mogachem Logn) in?1913. So why shoot off 1930 and 1940? One should not bring in one's ignorance as fact. When unsure, ask!
?
Sebastian Borges
?
?
On 1 May 2011?Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:

<<Konkani is another spelling for Concani or more accurately Concanim
(the former probably used more in English usage, and the latter more
in Portugese). If one is referring to different dialects and different
scripts, then that would need to be specified. Even the
Konknni-Konkani-Concani descriptor is not sufficient to specify the
difference, I would guess. FN
PS: Didn't Shenoy Goembab initially write in the Romi script, shifting
to Devanagari in the 1930s or 1940s?>>


Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There were several "Konkani" books published much
> before 1961. The word "Konkani", as opposed to "Concani"
> was in use since at least 1882 or 1883 when Fr. Maffei
> published a Konkani-English dictionary and a book on
> Konkani grammar in Mangalore. The Konkani Bhasha
> Mandal was founded in Bombay in 1935. All India
> Konkani Parishad was founded in Karwar in 1939.
> Konkani Sahitya Mandals were formed in 1951.

Sebastian Borges
Santosh Helekar
2011-05-01 19:28:52 UTC
Permalink
On 1 May 2011?Frederick Noronha <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Konkani is another spelling for Concani or more accurately Concanim
> (the former probably used more in English usage, and the latter more
> in Portugese).
>

The word "Concanim" is no more accurate than the word "Concani", as far as usage before 1961 is concerned. Both words were used in the Portuguese language before 1961. For example, a book entitled "Grammatica Da Lingua Concani" was published in 1859.

Cheers,

Santosh
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