Discussion:
[Goanet] Goa: The Cruellest Inquisition
Gilbert Lawrence
2010-10-22 00:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Eddie, if / when Richard Zimler (author of the Goa-based mystery novel) comes to
any Goan function in London, can you ask him if he has any references for data
(age, sex, occupations, ethnicity, religion, nationalities, etc and crimes
accused), on the 57 individuals?condemned to capital punishment over the 213
years of the Inquisition in Goa??


If he does not have such data: Can you inquire how does he substantiates?his
opinion on his web, and other writings about the targeting of various groups by
the Inquisition in Goa?

Such questions could also be directed to any Goan historian or otherwise who
opines about specific groups being targeted by the Inquisition in Goa.

Thanks in anticipation.

Regards, GL
?

----------- Eddie Fernandes
?
Muslims were the major victims of the Spanish Inquisition in Goa. Richard Zimler
of course focuses on the couple of Jews. But his work is seminal in the sense
that it highlights the plight of the Goans...

?
Zimler says, " My novel, Guardian of the Dawn, takes place in the Portuguese
colony of Goa during the early 17th century, and it is an historical mystery
that explores the dangers of religious fundamentalism...
Gabriel de Figueiredo
2010-10-22 06:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Why dig out only the Portuguese? Perhaps comparative history would be better -
how many people were subject to torture in England in the same period, and how
many people were tortured in India by the Brits in a similar period for
political and religious reasons?


----- Original Message ----
From: Gilbert Lawrence <gilbert2114 at yahoo.com>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Sent: Fri, 22 October, 2010 11:49:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa: The Cruellest Inquisition
Eddie, if / when Richard Zimler (author of the Goa-based mystery novel) comes to
any Goan function in London, can you ask him if he has any references for data
(age, sex, occupations, ethnicity, religion, nationalities, etc and crimes
accused), on the 57 individuals?condemned to capital punishment over the 213
years of the Inquisition in Goa??
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2010-10-22 09:48:25 UTC
Permalink
?Gabriel de Figueiredo wrote: Why dig out only the Portuguese? Perhaps
comparative history would be better .....

jc's comment:

My dear Gabriel,
a: Enough of speculation and revisionism. Produce the data. This is a
valid point.

b: If Richard Zimler does not produce 'references' in his NOVEL, why
should anyone else who writes a book? This is not a valid point.

BTW: Even if one life was lost by way of the Inquisition, it is one
too many. In my own mind, the benefit which the Portuguese had
produced by way of the abolition of Sati, was lost by their masterly
inactivity in relation to the Inquisition.

There is no point is arguing that the Inquisition in Goa cost only 215
lives while God alone knows how many hundreds of thousands of
widows/mothers.sisters/daughters were put to death by way of Sati.

BTW: There are many among us who wonder why I keep harping on Sati.
Well, when I see the reported incidence of female infanticide in
India, I wonder if it is not Sati-redux....only, in advance.

jc

----- Original Message ----
From: Gilbert Lawrence <gilbert2114 at yahoo.com>

Eddie, if / when Richard Zimler (author of the Goa-based mystery
novel) comes to any Goan function in London, can you ask him if he has
any references for data? (age, sex, occupations, ethnicity, religion,
nationalities, etc and crimes accused), on the 57 individuals
condemned to capital punishment over the 213
years of the Inquisition in Goa?
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2010-10-22 09:48:25 UTC
Permalink
?Gabriel de Figueiredo wrote: Why dig out only the Portuguese? Perhaps
comparative history would be better .....

jc's comment:

My dear Gabriel,
a: Enough of speculation and revisionism. Produce the data. This is a
valid point.

b: If Richard Zimler does not produce 'references' in his NOVEL, why
should anyone else who writes a book? This is not a valid point.

BTW: Even if one life was lost by way of the Inquisition, it is one
too many. In my own mind, the benefit which the Portuguese had
produced by way of the abolition of Sati, was lost by their masterly
inactivity in relation to the Inquisition.

There is no point is arguing that the Inquisition in Goa cost only 215
lives while God alone knows how many hundreds of thousands of
widows/mothers.sisters/daughters were put to death by way of Sati.

BTW: There are many among us who wonder why I keep harping on Sati.
Well, when I see the reported incidence of female infanticide in
India, I wonder if it is not Sati-redux....only, in advance.

jc

----- Original Message ----
From: Gilbert Lawrence <gilbert2114 at yahoo.com>

Eddie, if / when Richard Zimler (author of the Goa-based mystery
novel) comes to any Goan function in London, can you ask him if he has
any references for data? (age, sex, occupations, ethnicity, religion,
nationalities, etc and crimes accused), on the 57 individuals
condemned to capital punishment over the 213
years of the Inquisition in Goa?
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2010-10-22 09:48:25 UTC
Permalink
?Gabriel de Figueiredo wrote: Why dig out only the Portuguese? Perhaps
comparative history would be better .....

jc's comment:

My dear Gabriel,
a: Enough of speculation and revisionism. Produce the data. This is a
valid point.

b: If Richard Zimler does not produce 'references' in his NOVEL, why
should anyone else who writes a book? This is not a valid point.

BTW: Even if one life was lost by way of the Inquisition, it is one
too many. In my own mind, the benefit which the Portuguese had
produced by way of the abolition of Sati, was lost by their masterly
inactivity in relation to the Inquisition.

There is no point is arguing that the Inquisition in Goa cost only 215
lives while God alone knows how many hundreds of thousands of
widows/mothers.sisters/daughters were put to death by way of Sati.

BTW: There are many among us who wonder why I keep harping on Sati.
Well, when I see the reported incidence of female infanticide in
India, I wonder if it is not Sati-redux....only, in advance.

jc

----- Original Message ----
From: Gilbert Lawrence <gilbert2114 at yahoo.com>

Eddie, if / when Richard Zimler (author of the Goa-based mystery
novel) comes to any Goan function in London, can you ask him if he has
any references for data? (age, sex, occupations, ethnicity, religion,
nationalities, etc and crimes accused), on the 57 individuals
condemned to capital punishment over the 213
years of the Inquisition in Goa?
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2010-10-22 09:48:25 UTC
Permalink
?Gabriel de Figueiredo wrote: Why dig out only the Portuguese? Perhaps
comparative history would be better .....

jc's comment:

My dear Gabriel,
a: Enough of speculation and revisionism. Produce the data. This is a
valid point.

b: If Richard Zimler does not produce 'references' in his NOVEL, why
should anyone else who writes a book? This is not a valid point.

BTW: Even if one life was lost by way of the Inquisition, it is one
too many. In my own mind, the benefit which the Portuguese had
produced by way of the abolition of Sati, was lost by their masterly
inactivity in relation to the Inquisition.

There is no point is arguing that the Inquisition in Goa cost only 215
lives while God alone knows how many hundreds of thousands of
widows/mothers.sisters/daughters were put to death by way of Sati.

BTW: There are many among us who wonder why I keep harping on Sati.
Well, when I see the reported incidence of female infanticide in
India, I wonder if it is not Sati-redux....only, in advance.

jc

----- Original Message ----
From: Gilbert Lawrence <gilbert2114 at yahoo.com>

Eddie, if / when Richard Zimler (author of the Goa-based mystery
novel) comes to any Goan function in London, can you ask him if he has
any references for data? (age, sex, occupations, ethnicity, religion,
nationalities, etc and crimes accused), on the 57 individuals
condemned to capital punishment over the 213
years of the Inquisition in Goa?
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2010-10-22 09:48:25 UTC
Permalink
?Gabriel de Figueiredo wrote: Why dig out only the Portuguese? Perhaps
comparative history would be better .....

jc's comment:

My dear Gabriel,
a: Enough of speculation and revisionism. Produce the data. This is a
valid point.

b: If Richard Zimler does not produce 'references' in his NOVEL, why
should anyone else who writes a book? This is not a valid point.

BTW: Even if one life was lost by way of the Inquisition, it is one
too many. In my own mind, the benefit which the Portuguese had
produced by way of the abolition of Sati, was lost by their masterly
inactivity in relation to the Inquisition.

There is no point is arguing that the Inquisition in Goa cost only 215
lives while God alone knows how many hundreds of thousands of
widows/mothers.sisters/daughters were put to death by way of Sati.

BTW: There are many among us who wonder why I keep harping on Sati.
Well, when I see the reported incidence of female infanticide in
India, I wonder if it is not Sati-redux....only, in advance.

jc

----- Original Message ----
From: Gilbert Lawrence <gilbert2114 at yahoo.com>

Eddie, if / when Richard Zimler (author of the Goa-based mystery
novel) comes to any Goan function in London, can you ask him if he has
any references for data? (age, sex, occupations, ethnicity, religion,
nationalities, etc and crimes accused), on the 57 individuals
condemned to capital punishment over the 213
years of the Inquisition in Goa?
Gilbert Lawrence
2010-10-22 23:15:29 UTC
Permalink
-------------- ?Gilbert Lawrence

Eddie, if / when Richard Zimler (author of the Goa-based mystery novel) comes
to? any Goan function in London, can you ask him if he has any references for
data?(age, sex, occupations, ethnicity, religion, nationalities, etc and
crimes?accused), on the 57 individuals condemned to capital punishment over the
213?years of the Inquisition in Goa??


------------ Gabriel de Figueiredo

Why dig out only the Portuguese? Perhaps comparative history would be better -
how many people were subject to torture in England in the same period, and how
many people were tortured in India by the Brits in a similar period for
political and religious reasons?


-------------- ?Gilbert Lawrence responds:

That is exactly what I tried to do in my 8-part series on Europe and
Inquisition.? One point made there is the term Inquisition only applies to
Catholic countries - Spain, Portugal, France, Italy.??Exactly?and even
worse?occurred in Anglican Europe (England, Scotland,?Wales); in Lutheran Europe
(Germany, all Scandinavian countries); and Calvinist Europe (Switzerland,?
Netherlands etc.)? Only here it is called religious persecution and ethnic
cleansing.


Another point made by individuals purporting to stand against ethnic labeling;
while precisely doing so. This is?regarding the 57 individuals condemned to
capital punishment over the 213 years.? That is a high number ONLY IF we assume,
residents of Goa over the 213 years were free from?sin.? Any society (and
subset-group) would have its?PROPORTIONATE SHARE?of murderers,
rapists,?adulterers, tax evaders,?robbers; spies, traitors, army deserters,
double agents, saboteurs, etc.,; those?committing?major corruption, high crimes
and misdemeanors; and those who give aid to the enemy and / or undermine the
government.?


So the 57 may not be victims as many label them; without knowing the facts. They
could well be criminals; who individually HAPPENED TO BE


1. Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italian, English, Dutch, Arab, Indian; AND
2. Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Muslim, Jew, Crypto-Jew;?AND
3. laborer, spouse, doctor, lawyer, priest, nun, etc..?

Some appear to have the notion (and with tunnel vision EVEN claim) that if one
belongs to?a group, somehow one is incapable of committing any crimes and
misdemeanors.?


So mis-statements were made. Then?many repeat the same mis-statements again and
again using ?references? - where someones mis-guided and fact-less opinions now
becomes a fact and part of Goa's history.? Yet this should not be acceptable in
21st century, just because we are talking about Goa.:=))

Regards, GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2010-10-23 19:47:21 UTC
Permalink
------------ Gabriel de Figueiredo

Why dig out only the Portuguese? Perhaps comparative history would be better -
how many people were subject to torture in England in the same period, and how
many people were tortured in India by the Brits in a similar period for
political and religious reasons?


----------- GL responds:

As I was writing my last response to this thread, I read the posts about the
practice of medicine by?medical quacks -?aka non-certified
physicians.??Today?likely in Goa and India;?but definitely in UK, Australia,
USA, etc?medical quacks are barred and even subject to criminal prosecutions
because of the risk of killing patients.?

Medical quacks are certainly condemned on Goanet. Yet similar efforts in 16th,
17th, 18th?century in?colonial Goa against non-certified doctors a.k.a. vaidya
(Hindu), hakim (Muslim)?are called the "abuses of Inquisition." Given the
economic advancement of colonial Goa, it was an attractive place for anyone
seeking?to improve?their socio-economic status.

The?govt action of colonial Goa?is condemned, by the same people, who rightly
condemn?the current medical practices of non-certified medical practitioners.? I
find this?hypocrisy and / or ignorance amusing.?

I am not claiming that 'certified physicians' of the 16th, 17th, 18th century
were practicing 'evidence based medicine' and were always curing patients. All I
am claiming?is the desire to license physicians in the 20th and 21st century was
as significant?and ?important as in the 16th, 17th, 18th century in colonial
Goa.

Regards, GL
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2010-10-24 16:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gilbert,
??? Are you now claiming that one of the purposes of the Inquisition in Goa was
to

stamp out medical malpractice by non-Catholic doctors?
??? If you can document such cases in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, you
will have

a sure best-selling treatise on your hands.
??? Regards,
??? Victor




________________________________
From: Gilbert Lawrence <gilbert2114 at yahoo.com>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Sent: Sat, October 23, 2010 3:47:21 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Goa: The Cruellest Inquisition

------------ Gabriel de Figueiredo

Why dig out only the Portuguese? Perhaps comparative history would be better -
how many people were subject to torture in England in the same period, and how
many people were tortured in India by the Brits in a similar period for
political and religious reasons?


----------- GL responds:

As I was writing my last response to this thread, I read the posts about the
practice of medicine by?medical quacks -?aka non-certified
physicians.??Today?likely in Goa and India;?but definitely in UK, Australia,
USA, etc?medical quacks are barred and even subject to criminal prosecutions
because of the risk of killing patients.?

Medical quacks are certainly condemned on Goanet. Yet similar efforts in 16th,
17th, 18th?century in?colonial Goa against non-certified doctors a.k.a. vaidya
(Hindu), hakim (Muslim)?are called the "abuses of Inquisition." Given the
economic advancement of colonial Goa, it was an attractive place for anyone
seeking?to improve?their socio-economic status.

The?govt action of colonial Goa?is condemned, by the same people, who rightly
condemn?the current medical practices of non-certified medical practitioners.? I

find this?hypocrisy and / or ignorance amusing.?

I am not claiming that 'certified physicians' of the 16th, 17th, 18th century
were practicing 'evidence based medicine' and were always curing patients. All I

am claiming?is the desire to license physicians in the 20th and 21st century was

as significant?and ?important as in the 16th, 17th, 18th century in colonial
Goa.

Regards, GL
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2010-10-24 16:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gilbert,
??? Are you now claiming that one of the purposes of the Inquisition in Goa was
to

stamp out medical malpractice by non-Catholic doctors?
??? If you can document such cases in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, you
will have

a sure best-selling treatise on your hands.
??? Regards,
??? Victor




________________________________
From: Gilbert Lawrence <gilbert2114 at yahoo.com>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Sent: Sat, October 23, 2010 3:47:21 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Goa: The Cruellest Inquisition

------------ Gabriel de Figueiredo

Why dig out only the Portuguese? Perhaps comparative history would be better -
how many people were subject to torture in England in the same period, and how
many people were tortured in India by the Brits in a similar period for
political and religious reasons?


----------- GL responds:

As I was writing my last response to this thread, I read the posts about the
practice of medicine by?medical quacks -?aka non-certified
physicians.??Today?likely in Goa and India;?but definitely in UK, Australia,
USA, etc?medical quacks are barred and even subject to criminal prosecutions
because of the risk of killing patients.?

Medical quacks are certainly condemned on Goanet. Yet similar efforts in 16th,
17th, 18th?century in?colonial Goa against non-certified doctors a.k.a. vaidya
(Hindu), hakim (Muslim)?are called the "abuses of Inquisition." Given the
economic advancement of colonial Goa, it was an attractive place for anyone
seeking?to improve?their socio-economic status.

The?govt action of colonial Goa?is condemned, by the same people, who rightly
condemn?the current medical practices of non-certified medical practitioners.? I

find this?hypocrisy and / or ignorance amusing.?

I am not claiming that 'certified physicians' of the 16th, 17th, 18th century
were practicing 'evidence based medicine' and were always curing patients. All I

am claiming?is the desire to license physicians in the 20th and 21st century was

as significant?and ?important as in the 16th, 17th, 18th century in colonial
Goa.

Regards, GL
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2010-10-24 16:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gilbert,
??? Are you now claiming that one of the purposes of the Inquisition in Goa was
to

stamp out medical malpractice by non-Catholic doctors?
??? If you can document such cases in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, you
will have

a sure best-selling treatise on your hands.
??? Regards,
??? Victor




________________________________
From: Gilbert Lawrence <gilbert2114 at yahoo.com>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Sent: Sat, October 23, 2010 3:47:21 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Goa: The Cruellest Inquisition

------------ Gabriel de Figueiredo

Why dig out only the Portuguese? Perhaps comparative history would be better -
how many people were subject to torture in England in the same period, and how
many people were tortured in India by the Brits in a similar period for
political and religious reasons?


----------- GL responds:

As I was writing my last response to this thread, I read the posts about the
practice of medicine by?medical quacks -?aka non-certified
physicians.??Today?likely in Goa and India;?but definitely in UK, Australia,
USA, etc?medical quacks are barred and even subject to criminal prosecutions
because of the risk of killing patients.?

Medical quacks are certainly condemned on Goanet. Yet similar efforts in 16th,
17th, 18th?century in?colonial Goa against non-certified doctors a.k.a. vaidya
(Hindu), hakim (Muslim)?are called the "abuses of Inquisition." Given the
economic advancement of colonial Goa, it was an attractive place for anyone
seeking?to improve?their socio-economic status.

The?govt action of colonial Goa?is condemned, by the same people, who rightly
condemn?the current medical practices of non-certified medical practitioners.? I

find this?hypocrisy and / or ignorance amusing.?

I am not claiming that 'certified physicians' of the 16th, 17th, 18th century
were practicing 'evidence based medicine' and were always curing patients. All I

am claiming?is the desire to license physicians in the 20th and 21st century was

as significant?and ?important as in the 16th, 17th, 18th century in colonial
Goa.

Regards, GL
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2010-10-24 16:37:09 UTC