Discussion:
Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related websites
(too old to reply)
CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-09-26 15:27:19 UTC
Permalink
OPEN LETTER TO GOANET AND OTHER GOAN RELATED WEBSITES

We have had Cecil Pinto's confirmation on GX (GoenchimXapotam) that, it is Frederick Noronha who rejects large numbers of posts sent to Goanet without the slightest whiff of an explanation. This disclosure has not been rebutted by Frederick for over a fortnight and I therefore want to congratulate him on his contribution towards corruption and the absence of transparency for which India has just been rated 85th out of 180 countries on the Transparency International Survey. But what on earth am I talking about?

Anyone who googles Transparency International will discover that since 1995, there has been an official international body (executive director, Chandrashekhar Krishan) that studies corruption in differnt countries and provides such data in a league table. The latest was published on 23/9/08 and its details, especially on its methodology, are on Google.

Many will recall that since the start of 2008, there has been a huge number of posts rejected by Goanet without explanation. This prompted several posters to question what was going on rather unexpectedly. In my case, I had 25 to 30 rejections since Jan 2008 and virtually none among many hundreds, in the previous six years--and of course, I had not changed my general focus nor writing style in any way! Others had similar experiences and this led to Santosh Helekar kindly agreeing on behalf of others, to list key questions that needed to be addressed by Goanet--specifically relating to the rejection of posts without explanation. The immediate response to Santosh Helekar's very polite and precise query was the standard rejection note that his post was "inappropriate". It was of course sent by a person who chose to remain anonymous and so much in keeping with recent Goanet practice!

Unfortunately, I am only now able to respond to the totally unexpected info (at least for me) that good old Frederick Noronha lay at the heart of the rejection racket whilst taking good care not to be discovered as the villain of the piece. Coincidentally, just after Cecil's disclosure about Frederick Noronha's role vis a vis Goanet, I happened to be in Russia where among the academics I met, the central concerns were: a) the problem of growing corruption at all levels in that society including the Net, schools, colleges, universities, employment etc. The parallels with India seemed very close but the Transparency International League table now puts Russia at 147 compared to India at 85 out of 180 nations. b) the absence of a free press in Russia and the wide use of censorship.

I naturally found it difficult to believe that Frederick Noronha whom I have always held to be a decent guy was the source of so much unrest among serious and highly educated posters on Goanet and therefore wish to make the following observations, knowing full well that this post is unlikely to appear on Goanet for the simple reason that Goanet cannot handle even the mildest form of constructive criticism. It will howeve be read widely and Goanet members will have access to it irespective of every means that Goanet tries to block it:

1. If indeed, Frederick Noronha is (with others) the owner of the Goanet site, I can accept that, it is his prerogative to reject those posts he does not personally consider acceptable for his site. However, he and his fellow site owners have TOTALLY FAILED to inform us posters that this is indeed a private site in which he (Frederick Noronha and unnamed associates) can do as they please with absolutely no regard for any accountability nor any concern for the posters. Had he and his associates acted properly, there would not be a need for several posters, unhappy with Goanet post rejections, to try to endlessly extract information from the so called moderators about the discernible pattern of post rejections. This lack of transparency regarding Frederick Noronha's hidden hand on Goanet is in my view, one clear illustration of corrupt practice on Goanet. Why on earth not just come clean and say that only what he says goes on Goanet instead of
consistently pussy-footing about the 'constructive objectives' of Goanet, endlessly welcoming posts and commentary but operating very much like Lady Macbeth as an assassin from behind the scenes?

2. Another example of corrupt practice on Goanet is when consistency is absent. At least one moderator will provide a reason for the rejection of a post and indeed be named so that at least something may be done about it. Yet, virtually all others will remain anonymous (whoever they are) and will use the sham of a standardised rejection note. When the available Goanet protocol is followed up to seek an explanation for a rejection, the question simply ends up in limbo everytime. If Frederick permits this kind of corrupt practice as a site owner, questions are surely reasonable regarding his personal integrity in running an international web site with the hollow sham that "Goanet is where Goans connect" when instead hundreds of post rejections represent a major 'disconnect' without reasons.

3. Information about exactly who the moderators are is steeped in secrecy. Surely, it is incumbent on Frederick Noronha and his fellow site owners to make this information clear so as to curtail contradictory versions emanating from so called moderators of Goanet who pathetically try to remain nameless.

4. Another form of corruption is that Frederick Noronha appears to perform the role of a newspaper editor where indeed the editor traditionally has the last word (normally without explanation) regarding a letter to the editor. However, a web-site like Goanet is not run like a newspaper. It is indeed dependent on a large number of posters who sustain discourse. Unexplained rejections of posts on Goanet inevitably stifle such discourse. If such supression of posts by elimination did not take place, Frederick Noronha as one of the site owners would hardly appear at the top of the list for posts published virtually every month! Surely, his personal integrity requires some explanation re this peculiar conundrum or we should be informed that it is his personal greater glory that is important to him rather than Goanet being of purported concern about Goan matters in Goa and the Goan Diaspora. A cheeky question would be if anyone ever moderates any of the site
owners' posts, and if not, why not? And why the implicit racket of them and us on Goanet?

4. It is corrupt if it is not made clear to posters that certain ideological positions are unacceptable or indeed that his 'chieftenship' Frederick Noronha, effectively dictates what is aceeptable or not. His role smacks of authoritarian censorship evident in communist and fascist regimes. This is particularly strange for someone who is purportedly a professional journalist and purportedly a strong advocate for democracy. Further, if the intelligencia in Goa of which Goanet is clearly a part, performs as Goanet does on the inexplicable rejection of posts in significant numbers, is it any surprise that Goa is in the absolute mess that it is in with regard to corruption? Put simply, Frederick Noronha and his fellow site owners seem to be complicit in the very corruption they pretend to disown and abhor. Openess in discourse is the key towards the elimination of the hidden hand of corruption that clearly permeates Goanet through and through.

5. Non explanation for the rejection of posts allows for the corrupt practice of avoiding reading or engaging with the posts received by the moderators.

6. The paradox for me is that India does have an excellent press that in many ways emulates the best traditions of the UK press in which nothing is sacred except what affects state security. How then is it possible that Frederick Noronha runs a Goanet 'racket' in which everyting is highly secretive and totally lacking in transparency? I am sure the many Goan websites where this post of mine will be transmitted, would like to have Frederick's answer to this question out of sheer curiosity if nothing else.

Finally, for me, the annual report from Transparency International was most timely. Its appearance coincided precisely with a time when I was reflecting on corruption and lack of transparency on Goanet. I therefore have, with many regrets, to assert strongly that, Goanet is a seriously non transparent organisation with the hidden hand of corruption all over it. No other website that I am familiar with reaches the depth of corruption and non transparency as Goanet does.

This trenchant criticism is not meant to be personal but it is the only way I can focus on the serious systemic shortcomings of Goanet.
Cornel DaCosta, London, UK.
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-26 15:57:41 UTC
Permalink
It is sometimes important for pure nonsense to go through too. That's
the price we all pay for free speech. FN
Post by CORNEL DACOSTA
OPEN LETTER TO GOANET AND OTHER GOAN RELATED WEBSITES
We have had Cecil Pinto's confirmation on GX (GoenchimXapotam) that, it is
Frederick Noronha who rejects large numbers of posts sent to Goanet without
the slightest whiff of an explanation. This disclosure has not been rebutted
by Frederick for over a fortnight and I therefore want to congratulate him
on his contribution towards corruption and the absence of transparency for
which India has just been rated 85th out of 180 countries on the
Transparency International Survey. But what on earth am I talking about? ...
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
Blog: http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Tech links from South Asia: http://twitter.com/fn
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Carvalho
2008-09-26 16:47:36 UTC
Permalink
I don't know about the rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a Cecil Pinto against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha.

selma
Post by CORNEL DACOSTA
We have had Cecil Pinto's confirmation on GX
(GoenchimXapotam) that, it is Frederick Noronha who rejects
large numbers of posts sent to Goanet without the slightest
whiff of an explanation.
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-26 17:09:53 UTC
Permalink
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote?
IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted infra?
jc

2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>: I don't know about the
rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a Cecil Pinto
against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-26 17:37:55 UTC
Permalink
Cecil's answer is below. It was titled "Reply on behalf of GoaNet".
Parts of it are uncannily close to the truth :-) Your guess which (and
I'm not referring to the complimentary parts alone). FN
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote?
IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted infra?
jc
2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>: I don't know about the
rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a Cecil Pinto
against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha
Santosh Helekar asked:

1. How many Goanet moderators are there, and what are their names?

Answer:
http://www.goanet.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=9
Herman Carneiro, Boston, MA, USA
Frederick "FN" Noronha, Goa, India
Viviana Coelho, San Francisco, CA, USA
Bosco D'Mello, Toronto, Canada

In descending order of knowledge of Goa, Goans and Konkani:
Frederick "FN" Noronha, Goa, India
Bosco D'Mello, Toronto, Canada
Herman Carneiro, Boston, MA, USA
Viviana Coelho, San Francisco, CA, USA

Herman has moderated nothing for many years.
Viviana moderates once in a way. Just to show she is around and in a
powerful position. She knows precious zilch about real life in Goa.
Bosco does most of the work and is King.
But it is Frederick who is God and steers everything exactly the way
he wants it. Don't believe any crap he gives about not bening involved
with GoaNet moderation.

-----------

2. How are the moderator duties divided between them?

Answer:
A hot potato posting is bounced between them till someone decides to
take responsibility. Bosco and Viviana may be flawed in their
moderation (who isn't?) but mostly have the decency to sign their
names to a rejection. If you see an anonymous rejection it is
Frederick's work. Sometimes a hot potato just disappears, thanks to
Frederick, without any other moderator knowing what happened. I have
often offered my considerable Net expertise for free as a moderator
but been refused. They ask for volunteers often but only for the
'junior' positions. Frederick love power and is not willing to give up
what he has built over so many years. I don't blame him. Only wish he
would be open about his actions.

--------

3. Are all Goanet members placed on moderation, or are there some
whose messages are allowed to show up on Goanet unmoderated?

Answer:
There are a few who are in unmoderated mode. It is none of your
business to know who and why.

------

4. Does the history of a poster on Goanet determine how closely
his/her posts are screened?

Answer:
Is the Pope Catholic?

---------

5. What is done to ensure that there is no ideological bias in
rejection or acceptance of posts e.g. supporters of BJP vs Congress vs
Marxist party, Christian viewpoint vs Hindu viewpoint, etc?

Answer:
Fortunately Frederick is pretty balanced in his views so he gives a
pretty even playing field. It is only when his personal interests are
at stake that he comes down strong.

-------------

6. Can the actual reason for rejection be stated more clearly, and the
name of the person who moderated the post be provided, each time a
post is rejected?

Answer:
No. That would expose Frederick.

----------

As Frederick has said time and again, if you feel you have a better
model then feel free to start a new Goa Cyber Group yourself.
Frederick made Goanet what it is through sheer dint of hard work. He
deserves to control it any way he chooses.

Cheers!

Cecil
====
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
Blog: http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Tech links from South Asia: http://twitter.com/fn
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-26 17:37:55 UTC
Permalink
Cecil's answer is below. It was titled "Reply on behalf of GoaNet".
Parts of it are uncannily close to the truth :-) Your guess which (and
I'm not referring to the complimentary parts alone). FN
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote?
IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted infra?
jc
2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>: I don't know about the
rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a Cecil Pinto
against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha
Santosh Helekar asked:

1. How many Goanet moderators are there, and what are their names?

Answer:
http://www.goanet.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=9
Herman Carneiro, Boston, MA, USA
Frederick "FN" Noronha, Goa, India
Viviana Coelho, San Francisco, CA, USA
Bosco D'Mello, Toronto, Canada

In descending order of knowledge of Goa, Goans and Konkani:
Frederick "FN" Noronha, Goa, India
Bosco D'Mello, Toronto, Canada
Herman Carneiro, Boston, MA, USA
Viviana Coelho, San Francisco, CA, USA

Herman has moderated nothing for many years.
Viviana moderates once in a way. Just to show she is around and in a
powerful position. She knows precious zilch about real life in Goa.
Bosco does most of the work and is King.
But it is Frederick who is God and steers everything exactly the way
he wants it. Don't believe any crap he gives about not bening involved
with GoaNet moderation.

-----------

2. How are the moderator duties divided between them?

Answer:
A hot potato posting is bounced between them till someone decides to
take responsibility. Bosco and Viviana may be flawed in their
moderation (who isn't?) but mostly have the decency to sign their
names to a rejection. If you see an anonymous rejection it is
Frederick's work. Sometimes a hot potato just disappears, thanks to
Frederick, without any other moderator knowing what happened. I have
often offered my considerable Net expertise for free as a moderator
but been refused. They ask for volunteers often but only for the
'junior' positions. Frederick love power and is not willing to give up
what he has built over so many years. I don't blame him. Only wish he
would be open about his actions.

--------

3. Are all Goanet members placed on moderation, or are there some
whose messages are allowed to show up on Goanet unmoderated?

Answer:
There are a few who are in unmoderated mode. It is none of your
business to know who and why.

------

4. Does the history of a poster on Goanet determine how closely
his/her posts are screened?

Answer:
Is the Pope Catholic?

---------

5. What is done to ensure that there is no ideological bias in
rejection or acceptance of posts e.g. supporters of BJP vs Congress vs
Marxist party, Christian viewpoint vs Hindu viewpoint, etc?

Answer:
Fortunately Frederick is pretty balanced in his views so he gives a
pretty even playing field. It is only when his personal interests are
at stake that he comes down strong.

-------------

6. Can the actual reason for rejection be stated more clearly, and the
name of the person who moderated the post be provided, each time a
post is rejected?

Answer:
No. That would expose Frederick.

----------

As Frederick has said time and again, if you feel you have a better
model then feel free to start a new Goa Cyber Group yourself.
Frederick made Goanet what it is through sheer dint of hard work. He
deserves to control it any way he chooses.

Cheers!

Cecil
====
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
Blog: http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Tech links from South Asia: http://twitter.com/fn
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-26 17:37:55 UTC
Permalink
Cecil's answer is below. It was titled "Reply on behalf of GoaNet".
Parts of it are uncannily close to the truth :-) Your guess which (and
I'm not referring to the complimentary parts alone). FN
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote?
IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted infra?
jc
2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>: I don't know about the
rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a Cecil Pinto
against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha
Santosh Helekar asked:

1. How many Goanet moderators are there, and what are their names?

Answer:
http://www.goanet.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=9
Herman Carneiro, Boston, MA, USA
Frederick "FN" Noronha, Goa, India
Viviana Coelho, San Francisco, CA, USA
Bosco D'Mello, Toronto, Canada

In descending order of knowledge of Goa, Goans and Konkani:
Frederick "FN" Noronha, Goa, India
Bosco D'Mello, Toronto, Canada
Herman Carneiro, Boston, MA, USA
Viviana Coelho, San Francisco, CA, USA

Herman has moderated nothing for many years.
Viviana moderates once in a way. Just to show she is around and in a
powerful position. She knows precious zilch about real life in Goa.
Bosco does most of the work and is King.
But it is Frederick who is God and steers everything exactly the way
he wants it. Don't believe any crap he gives about not bening involved
with GoaNet moderation.

-----------

2. How are the moderator duties divided between them?

Answer:
A hot potato posting is bounced between them till someone decides to
take responsibility. Bosco and Viviana may be flawed in their
moderation (who isn't?) but mostly have the decency to sign their
names to a rejection. If you see an anonymous rejection it is
Frederick's work. Sometimes a hot potato just disappears, thanks to
Frederick, without any other moderator knowing what happened. I have
often offered my considerable Net expertise for free as a moderator
but been refused. They ask for volunteers often but only for the
'junior' positions. Frederick love power and is not willing to give up
what he has built over so many years. I don't blame him. Only wish he
would be open about his actions.

--------

3. Are all Goanet members placed on moderation, or are there some
whose messages are allowed to show up on Goanet unmoderated?

Answer:
There are a few who are in unmoderated mode. It is none of your
business to know who and why.

------

4. Does the history of a poster on Goanet determine how closely
his/her posts are screened?

Answer:
Is the Pope Catholic?

---------

5. What is done to ensure that there is no ideological bias in
rejection or acceptance of posts e.g. supporters of BJP vs Congress vs
Marxist party, Christian viewpoint vs Hindu viewpoint, etc?

Answer:
Fortunately Frederick is pretty balanced in his views so he gives a
pretty even playing field. It is only when his personal interests are
at stake that he comes down strong.

-------------

6. Can the actual reason for rejection be stated more clearly, and the
name of the person who moderated the post be provided, each time a
post is rejected?

Answer:
No. That would expose Frederick.

----------

As Frederick has said time and again, if you feel you have a better
model then feel free to start a new Goa Cyber Group yourself.
Frederick made Goanet what it is through sheer dint of hard work. He
deserves to control it any way he chooses.

Cheers!

Cecil
====
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
Blog: http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Tech links from South Asia: http://twitter.com/fn
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-26 17:37:55 UTC
Permalink
Cecil's answer is below. It was titled "Reply on behalf of GoaNet".
Parts of it are uncannily close to the truth :-) Your guess which (and
I'm not referring to the complimentary parts alone). FN
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote?
IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted infra?
jc
2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>: I don't know about the
rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a Cecil Pinto
against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha
Santosh Helekar asked:

1. How many Goanet moderators are there, and what are their names?

Answer:
http://www.goanet.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=9
Herman Carneiro, Boston, MA, USA
Frederick "FN" Noronha, Goa, India
Viviana Coelho, San Francisco, CA, USA
Bosco D'Mello, Toronto, Canada

In descending order of knowledge of Goa, Goans and Konkani:
Frederick "FN" Noronha, Goa, India
Bosco D'Mello, Toronto, Canada
Herman Carneiro, Boston, MA, USA
Viviana Coelho, San Francisco, CA, USA

Herman has moderated nothing for many years.
Viviana moderates once in a way. Just to show she is around and in a
powerful position. She knows precious zilch about real life in Goa.
Bosco does most of the work and is King.
But it is Frederick who is God and steers everything exactly the way
he wants it. Don't believe any crap he gives about not bening involved
with GoaNet moderation.

-----------

2. How are the moderator duties divided between them?

Answer:
A hot potato posting is bounced between them till someone decides to
take responsibility. Bosco and Viviana may be flawed in their
moderation (who isn't?) but mostly have the decency to sign their
names to a rejection. If you see an anonymous rejection it is
Frederick's work. Sometimes a hot potato just disappears, thanks to
Frederick, without any other moderator knowing what happened. I have
often offered my considerable Net expertise for free as a moderator
but been refused. They ask for volunteers often but only for the
'junior' positions. Frederick love power and is not willing to give up
what he has built over so many years. I don't blame him. Only wish he
would be open about his actions.

--------

3. Are all Goanet members placed on moderation, or are there some
whose messages are allowed to show up on Goanet unmoderated?

Answer:
There are a few who are in unmoderated mode. It is none of your
business to know who and why.

------

4. Does the history of a poster on Goanet determine how closely
his/her posts are screened?

Answer:
Is the Pope Catholic?

---------

5. What is done to ensure that there is no ideological bias in
rejection or acceptance of posts e.g. supporters of BJP vs Congress vs
Marxist party, Christian viewpoint vs Hindu viewpoint, etc?

Answer:
Fortunately Frederick is pretty balanced in his views so he gives a
pretty even playing field. It is only when his personal interests are
at stake that he comes down strong.

-------------

6. Can the actual reason for rejection be stated more clearly, and the
name of the person who moderated the post be provided, each time a
post is rejected?

Answer:
No. That would expose Frederick.

----------

As Frederick has said time and again, if you feel you have a better
model then feel free to start a new Goa Cyber Group yourself.
Frederick made Goanet what it is through sheer dint of hard work. He
deserves to control it any way he chooses.

Cheers!

Cecil
====
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
Blog: http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Tech links from South Asia: http://twitter.com/fn
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-26 17:09:53 UTC
Permalink
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote?
IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted infra?
jc

2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>: I don't know about the
rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a Cecil Pinto
against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-26 17:09:53 UTC
Permalink
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote?
IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted infra?
jc

2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>: I don't know about the
rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a Cecil Pinto
against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-26 17:09:53 UTC
Permalink
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote?
IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted infra?
jc

2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>: I don't know about the
rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a Cecil Pinto
against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha
ralph rau
2008-09-26 17:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Cornel DaCosta seems to be distressed that his deserving and enlightening posts have not seen the light of day on Goanet.

To be honest I too have suspected Fred Noronha of being an arbitrary and high handed editor of goanet. But I have neither the time nor the inclination to offer myself for this honorary post.

Maybe the moderators need to offer the editor's post to Cornel DaCosta for "a term". I hope Cornel volunteers or else forever holds his peace.
Carvalho
2008-09-26 17:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Dear Doc,
Infra-vide or infra-red, for a long time now my email intuitively spams Cecil Pinto's posts. Sometimes when I check my spam folder, I find them wedged between some Nigerian scam and news that I've won the Canadian lottery. Artificial intelligence is very good at detecting the similarity between mails.

selma
From: J. Colaco < jc> <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related websites
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 12:09 PM
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote?
IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted
infra?
jc
2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>: I
don't know about the
rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a
Cecil Pinto
against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-26 18:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Selma,

Ultra violet or ultra vires, I personally believe that one should read
a post before commenting on it.

For one, party D might mis-represent (willfully or negligently) what
party P has said about party N

It also helps - to know the status of the script i.e. Was it a serious
piece, a piece of satire,or a piece of 50-50.

That is why a 'news item" on "Not the Nine O'Clock News" (for
instance) would carry a significantly different connotation than the
same item on the "Nine O' Clock News".

Time for me to experience the Port-a-Loo in my Gated Commune.

jc


2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>:
Dear Doc,
Infra-vide or infra-red, for a long time now my email intuitively
spams Cecil Pinto's posts. Sometimes when I check my spam folder, I
find them wedged between some Nigerian scam and news that I've won the
Canadian lottery. Artificial intelligence is very good at detecting
the similarity between mails.
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-26 18:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Selma,

Ultra violet or ultra vires, I personally believe that one should read
a post before commenting on it.

For one, party D might mis-represent (willfully or negligently) what
party P has said about party N

It also helps - to know the status of the script i.e. Was it a serious
piece, a piece of satire,or a piece of 50-50.

That is why a 'news item" on "Not the Nine O'Clock News" (for
instance) would carry a significantly different connotation than the
same item on the "Nine O' Clock News".

Time for me to experience the Port-a-Loo in my Gated Commune.

jc


2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>:
Dear Doc,
Infra-vide or infra-red, for a long time now my email intuitively
spams Cecil Pinto's posts. Sometimes when I check my spam folder, I
find them wedged between some Nigerian scam and news that I've won the
Canadian lottery. Artificial intelligence is very good at detecting
the similarity between mails.
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-26 18:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Selma,

Ultra violet or ultra vires, I personally believe that one should read
a post before commenting on it.

For one, party D might mis-represent (willfully or negligently) what
party P has said about party N

It also helps - to know the status of the script i.e. Was it a serious
piece, a piece of satire,or a piece of 50-50.

That is why a 'news item" on "Not the Nine O'Clock News" (for
instance) would carry a significantly different connotation than the
same item on the "Nine O' Clock News".

Time for me to experience the Port-a-Loo in my Gated Commune.

jc


2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>:
Dear Doc,
Infra-vide or infra-red, for a long time now my email intuitively
spams Cecil Pinto's posts. Sometimes when I check my spam folder, I
find them wedged between some Nigerian scam and news that I've won the
Canadian lottery. Artificial intelligence is very good at detecting
the similarity between mails.
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-26 18:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Selma,

Ultra violet or ultra vires, I personally believe that one should read
a post before commenting on it.

For one, party D might mis-represent (willfully or negligently) what
party P has said about party N

It also helps - to know the status of the script i.e. Was it a serious
piece, a piece of satire,or a piece of 50-50.

That is why a 'news item" on "Not the Nine O'Clock News" (for
instance) would carry a significantly different connotation than the
same item on the "Nine O' Clock News".

Time for me to experience the Port-a-Loo in my Gated Commune.

jc


2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>:
Dear Doc,
Infra-vide or infra-red, for a long time now my email intuitively
spams Cecil Pinto's posts. Sometimes when I check my spam folder, I
find them wedged between some Nigerian scam and news that I've won the
Canadian lottery. Artificial intelligence is very good at detecting
the similarity between mails.
Eddie Fernandes
2008-09-26 22:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Folks,

The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no surprise but the
acrimony it has generated causes me concern. There are valid arguments on
all sides, each person giving vent to their despair of what they see as
requisites to improving the GoaNet service. There are no villains on the
stage only Heroes and Heroines!

As I see it, the discussion is basically about two ends of the spectrum. FN
and the rest of the admin team is concerned about the number of members to
join GoaNet and leave soon afterwards. He prefers the GoaNet digest version,
posts in plain text and would like the number of contributors increased.
Cornel would like to see less moderation and more messages.

There is no reason why we should have to choose between one and the other.
GoaNet had not changed much since its inception and is still essentially an
email based service for contributors. Many other discussion lists have
turned into web-based services and there are many advantages of going down
that path. Now that broadband and fast internet speeds are here, the old
arguments about cost are no longer valid. The main advantage would be to
split the discussion list into threads and give readers the option of
subscribing to all discussions or only those threads that interest them.

One of the current problems is that it is impossible to find previous posts
on a subject such as recommended restaurants, internet connections, recent
books etc. Also, some discussions on topics like sports, employment, village
nets have been moved to separate lists. There is no reason why they cannot
have separate threads in GoaNet. One keyword search, say on fishing or
restaurant* would bring together discussion on that topic.

To provide specific examples how this would work, take a look as some
Goa-related wed-based discussion lists:

1. British Expats.com.
http://britishexpats.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=6773bb87d7adda768edac61914
c9ec70&f=94
Discussion on topics such as Hiring a Car in Goa; Medical care in Goa; Where
Do You Buy Your Diamonds in Goa

2. Holiday Truths.com. http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=60
Topics such as Malaria; Restaurants; Wifi

3. India Mike. http://www.indiamike.com/india/goa-f23/ Threads such as
Sim/Phone cards; Motorbike Rental; Dentists in Goa.

If GoaNet switches to a web-based service, readers will be able to select
the threads that interest them, messages by email would be reduced,
searching for information will be efficient and posting in plain text would
not be compulsory

And as less moderation would be required, let there be Peace!

Eddie Fernandes
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-26 23:36:53 UTC
Permalink
Eddie, as I understood Dr Cornel's angry allegations, it's not about
quantum of posts... but rather systemic bias. These are two different
issues, and, as such, has nothing to do with the solution you're
proposing below. What you say might make technical sense, but that is
entirely another issue.

As for myself, I don't see Dr Cornel as being on track for the reasons
outlined here: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewDiaspora/message/5855]
If others feel otherwise, it is an issue which can, and should, be
debated. FN

PS: Sorry for attaching the entire earlier message, just so that the
nuances of the argument are not lost.
Post by Eddie Fernandes
The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no surprise but the
acrimony it has generated causes me concern. There are valid arguments on
all sides, each person giving vent to their despair of what they see as
requisites to improving the GoaNet service. There are no villains on the
stage only Heroes and Heroines!
As I see it, the discussion is basically about two ends of the spectrum. FN
and the rest of the admin team is concerned about the number of members to
join GoaNet and leave soon afterwards. He prefers the GoaNet digest version,
posts in plain text and would like the number of contributors increased.
Cornel would like to see less moderation and more messages.
There is no reason why we should have to choose between one and the other.
GoaNet had not changed much since its inception and is still essentially an
email based service for contributors. Many other discussion lists have
turned into web-based services and there are many advantages of going down
that path. Now that broadband and fast internet speeds are here, the old
arguments about cost are no longer valid. The main advantage would be to
split the discussion list into threads and give readers the option of
subscribing to all discussions or only those threads that interest them.
One of the current problems is that it is impossible to find previous posts
on a subject such as recommended restaurants, internet connections, recent
books etc. Also, some discussions on topics like sports, employment, village
nets have been moved to separate lists. There is no reason why they cannot
have separate threads in GoaNet. One keyword search, say on fishing or
restaurant* would bring together discussion on that topic.
To provide specific examples how this would work, take a look as some
1. British Expats.com.
http://britishexpats.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=6773bb87d7adda768edac61914
c9ec70&f=94
Discussion on topics such as Hiring a Car in Goa; Medical care in Goa; Where
Do You Buy Your Diamonds in Goa
2. Holiday Truths.com. http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=60
Topics such as Malaria; Restaurants; Wifi
3. India Mike. http://www.indiamike.com/india/goa-f23/ Threads such as
Sim/Phone cards; Motorbike Rental; Dentists in Goa.
If GoaNet switches to a web-based service, readers will be able to select
the threads that interest them, messages by email would be reduced,
searching for information will be efficient and posting in plain text would
not be compulsory
And as less moderation would be required, let there be Peace!
Eddie Fernandes
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
Blog: http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Tech links from South Asia: http://twitter.com/fn
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-26 23:36:53 UTC
Permalink
Eddie, as I understood Dr Cornel's angry allegations, it's not about
quantum of posts... but rather systemic bias. These are two different
issues, and, as such, has nothing to do with the solution you're
proposing below. What you say might make technical sense, but that is
entirely another issue.

As for myself, I don't see Dr Cornel as being on track for the reasons
outlined here: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewDiaspora/message/5855]
If others feel otherwise, it is an issue which can, and should, be
debated. FN

PS: Sorry for attaching the entire earlier message, just so that the
nuances of the argument are not lost.
Post by Eddie Fernandes
The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no surprise but the
acrimony it has generated causes me concern. There are valid arguments on
all sides, each person giving vent to their despair of what they see as
requisites to improving the GoaNet service. There are no villains on the
stage only Heroes and Heroines!
As I see it, the discussion is basically about two ends of the spectrum. FN
and the rest of the admin team is concerned about the number of members to
join GoaNet and leave soon afterwards. He prefers the GoaNet digest version,
posts in plain text and would like the number of contributors increased.
Cornel would like to see less moderation and more messages.
There is no reason why we should have to choose between one and the other.
GoaNet had not changed much since its inception and is still essentially an
email based service for contributors. Many other discussion lists have
turned into web-based services and there are many advantages of going down
that path. Now that broadband and fast internet speeds are here, the old
arguments about cost are no longer valid. The main advantage would be to
split the discussion list into threads and give readers the option of
subscribing to all discussions or only those threads that interest them.
One of the current problems is that it is impossible to find previous posts
on a subject such as recommended restaurants, internet connections, recent
books etc. Also, some discussions on topics like sports, employment, village
nets have been moved to separate lists. There is no reason why they cannot
have separate threads in GoaNet. One keyword search, say on fishing or
restaurant* would bring together discussion on that topic.
To provide specific examples how this would work, take a look as some
1. British Expats.com.
http://britishexpats.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=6773bb87d7adda768edac61914
c9ec70&f=94
Discussion on topics such as Hiring a Car in Goa; Medical care in Goa; Where
Do You Buy Your Diamonds in Goa
2. Holiday Truths.com. http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=60
Topics such as Malaria; Restaurants; Wifi
3. India Mike. http://www.indiamike.com/india/goa-f23/ Threads such as
Sim/Phone cards; Motorbike Rental; Dentists in Goa.
If GoaNet switches to a web-based service, readers will be able to select
the threads that interest them, messages by email would be reduced,
searching for information will be efficient and posting in plain text would
not be compulsory
And as less moderation would be required, let there be Peace!
Eddie Fernandes
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
Blog: http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Tech links from South Asia: http://twitter.com/fn
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-26 23:36:53 UTC
Permalink
Eddie, as I understood Dr Cornel's angry allegations, it's not about
quantum of posts... but rather systemic bias. These are two different
issues, and, as such, has nothing to do with the solution you're
proposing below. What you say might make technical sense, but that is
entirely another issue.

As for myself, I don't see Dr Cornel as being on track for the reasons
outlined here: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewDiaspora/message/5855]
If others feel otherwise, it is an issue which can, and should, be
debated. FN

PS: Sorry for attaching the entire earlier message, just so that the
nuances of the argument are not lost.
Post by Eddie Fernandes
The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no surprise but the
acrimony it has generated causes me concern. There are valid arguments on
all sides, each person giving vent to their despair of what they see as
requisites to improving the GoaNet service. There are no villains on the
stage only Heroes and Heroines!
As I see it, the discussion is basically about two ends of the spectrum. FN
and the rest of the admin team is concerned about the number of members to
join GoaNet and leave soon afterwards. He prefers the GoaNet digest version,
posts in plain text and would like the number of contributors increased.
Cornel would like to see less moderation and more messages.
There is no reason why we should have to choose between one and the other.
GoaNet had not changed much since its inception and is still essentially an
email based service for contributors. Many other discussion lists have
turned into web-based services and there are many advantages of going down
that path. Now that broadband and fast internet speeds are here, the old
arguments about cost are no longer valid. The main advantage would be to
split the discussion list into threads and give readers the option of
subscribing to all discussions or only those threads that interest them.
One of the current problems is that it is impossible to find previous posts
on a subject such as recommended restaurants, internet connections, recent
books etc. Also, some discussions on topics like sports, employment, village
nets have been moved to separate lists. There is no reason why they cannot
have separate threads in GoaNet. One keyword search, say on fishing or
restaurant* would bring together discussion on that topic.
To provide specific examples how this would work, take a look as some
1. British Expats.com.
http://britishexpats.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=6773bb87d7adda768edac61914
c9ec70&f=94
Discussion on topics such as Hiring a Car in Goa; Medical care in Goa; Where
Do You Buy Your Diamonds in Goa
2. Holiday Truths.com. http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=60
Topics such as Malaria; Restaurants; Wifi
3. India Mike. http://www.indiamike.com/india/goa-f23/ Threads such as
Sim/Phone cards; Motorbike Rental; Dentists in Goa.
If GoaNet switches to a web-based service, readers will be able to select
the threads that interest them, messages by email would be reduced,
searching for information will be efficient and posting in plain text would
not be compulsory
And as less moderation would be required, let there be Peace!
Eddie Fernandes
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
Blog: http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Tech links from South Asia: http://twitter.com/fn
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-26 23:36:53 UTC
Permalink
Eddie, as I understood Dr Cornel's angry allegations, it's not about
quantum of posts... but rather systemic bias. These are two different
issues, and, as such, has nothing to do with the solution you're
proposing below. What you say might make technical sense, but that is
entirely another issue.

As for myself, I don't see Dr Cornel as being on track for the reasons
outlined here: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewDiaspora/message/5855]
If others feel otherwise, it is an issue which can, and should, be
debated. FN

PS: Sorry for attaching the entire earlier message, just so that the
nuances of the argument are not lost.
Post by Eddie Fernandes
The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no surprise but the
acrimony it has generated causes me concern. There are valid arguments on
all sides, each person giving vent to their despair of what they see as
requisites to improving the GoaNet service. There are no villains on the
stage only Heroes and Heroines!
As I see it, the discussion is basically about two ends of the spectrum. FN
and the rest of the admin team is concerned about the number of members to
join GoaNet and leave soon afterwards. He prefers the GoaNet digest version,
posts in plain text and would like the number of contributors increased.
Cornel would like to see less moderation and more messages.
There is no reason why we should have to choose between one and the other.
GoaNet had not changed much since its inception and is still essentially an
email based service for contributors. Many other discussion lists have
turned into web-based services and there are many advantages of going down
that path. Now that broadband and fast internet speeds are here, the old
arguments about cost are no longer valid. The main advantage would be to
split the discussion list into threads and give readers the option of
subscribing to all discussions or only those threads that interest them.
One of the current problems is that it is impossible to find previous posts
on a subject such as recommended restaurants, internet connections, recent
books etc. Also, some discussions on topics like sports, employment, village
nets have been moved to separate lists. There is no reason why they cannot
have separate threads in GoaNet. One keyword search, say on fishing or
restaurant* would bring together discussion on that topic.
To provide specific examples how this would work, take a look as some
1. British Expats.com.
http://britishexpats.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=6773bb87d7adda768edac61914
c9ec70&f=94
Discussion on topics such as Hiring a Car in Goa; Medical care in Goa; Where
Do You Buy Your Diamonds in Goa
2. Holiday Truths.com. http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=60
Topics such as Malaria; Restaurants; Wifi
3. India Mike. http://www.indiamike.com/india/goa-f23/ Threads such as
Sim/Phone cards; Motorbike Rental; Dentists in Goa.
If GoaNet switches to a web-based service, readers will be able to select
the threads that interest them, messages by email would be reduced,
searching for information will be efficient and posting in plain text would
not be compulsory
And as less moderation would be required, let there be Peace!
Eddie Fernandes
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
Blog: http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Tech links from South Asia: http://twitter.com/fn
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-27 13:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Possibly in response to the rather voluminous and
largely-based-on-misconceptions-and-biases Cornel da Costa tirade
directed against Frederick Noronha (FN)

(a) FN responded on Sept 26, 2008 : As for myself, I don't see Dr
Cornel as being on track for the reasons outlined here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewDiaspora/message/5855 . If others
feel otherwise, it is an issue which can, and should, be DEBATED.

(b) On that 'NewDiaspora' site that FN directed us to, he (FN) writes
the following: Please look at the quality of the discussions on a
network built to act as an alternative here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goenchimxapotam/ To expect me to respond
to the kangaroo court of Goenchim Xapotam is asking for too much.

==

jc's response wsr to FN's 'semi-call' for this to be DEBATED:



1: I found Cornel's diatribe significantly "over the top".

2: Cornel has (perhaps conveniently, perhaps in ignorance, but
definitely inappropriately) used Cecil's tongue in cheeck post to lash
out inappropriately at Frederick (FN).

3: FN is quite within his rights to NOT answer any questions posed to
him on another discussion list i.e. including GoenchimXapotam.

4: If however, Santosh Helekar has requested information (as a member
from GoaNet) directly from GoaNet admin, this cannot (I submit) be
considered to be an action of any Kangaroo Court. If FN disagrees with
this submission and wishes others on GoaNet to see the questions
collated by Santosh Helekar, he (FN) may wish to post those questions.
GoaNet members (I believe) can decide for themselves.

5: Just for information, I did not believe that GoaNet-admin would
answer any questions and hence did not bother to submit any questions
(to Santosh Helekar) to be forwarded to GoaNet. I also have repeatedly
stated that I am very happy with the terms and conditions I face on
GoaNet.....and that if I did not like them ....I was free to take a
hike.

6: I however am concerned at what FN has written on the 'NewDiaspora' site.

Please vide (b) above. I submit (once again) that FN is factually
incorrect and definitely misleading in his posting there.

Firstly: Neither Santosh Helekar nor anybody else made any attempt to
BUILD 'Goenchimxapotam'. Santoshbab merely secured a site for those
who wanted to Rant and Rave without disturbing the good people of
GoaNet.

Secondly: 'Goenchimxapotam' was NEVER meant (nor is it ever going to
be meant) to be an ALTERNATIVE to anything, let alone to GoaNet. FN
would do well by NOT misrepresenting the idea behind
'Goenchimxapotam'. I invite him (FN) to correct this
mis-representation he has placed on that 'NewDiaspora' site.

7: We too will do well IF we try to understand WHY this present
controversy took off on on GoenchinXapotam. . IF we need a reminder,
here it is:

This ill-feeling started with the horrendous personal attack by Eugene
Correia on the FAMILY of two very decent and hard working people i.e.
Lisette and Kevin Saldanha. The situation was worsened by the
inability of the Saldanhas to respond in good time to Mr. Correia.
(There are other issues relating to Francis Rodrigues and Roland
Francis which I will not get into here.)

We should NOT delude ourselves about the Saldanha-GoaNet matter. It is
my personal belief, and you may disagree, that the Saldanhas have a
very good reason to believe that they were treated very very unfairly
by the moderators of GoaNet.

That there are zillions of messages to moderate etc can explain the
occasional 'inappropriate' message which goes through. It does NOT
answer the main (IMHO) query that was asked of GoaNet admin i.e. Are
there some individuals who are moderated and some who are not? IF so,
What are the criteria for such discrimination?

Ask yourself, FN: WHICH ENTITY comes out of this looking like the
Kangaroo Court?

A small little free-for-all, take -out-your frustrations site like
Goenchimxapotam, or GoaNet admin which refuses to be transparent with
GoaNet members and which more than occasionally allows the Moderators
to break the very GoaNet rules they say they strive to up- hold?

just my view - and FN or alia may have the last word on this. It is
highly likely that I have totally misunderstood FN's post on the
'NewDiaspora' site. If I am proven to be wrong, I will happily stand
corrected. FN is also quite within his rights to slam me - for
whatever. The questions from Santosh Helekar ....meanwhile, remain
unanswered.


jc
One who believes that we are ALL Kangaroos. It is just that we (all)
like to believe that our own courts are Giraffe courts (tall and
upstanding) and theirs...Kangaroo.

ps: For the record: Will be posting this on 'Goenchimxapotam '
CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-09-27 20:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Eddie
Your suggestions for Goanet to adjust to the diversity of interests is quite interesting and original.

However, with regard to your reply below, I definitely have no change in mind for Goanet. I am happy with it except for one simple point. Goanet protocols allow for a reason to be provided why a post is rejected as "inappropriate". This built in protocol is ignored almost always by Goanet moderation personnel. If not true, there would be some evidence that reasons are provided when they are requested. Unfortunately, they have NEVER worked for me and several others since Jan/Feb 2008.

I would rather that Goanet stated that no reasons for rejections will be provided and I could live with that--after all, Goanet is a privilege and not a right to posters. However, it is the clandestine rejection of posts, that is the source of concern for me and many others and especially, the lack of any transparency re Goanet's own protocols on rejections.

On another point, Santosh Helekar deserves a reply to his polite and reasoned petition (on behalf of several Goanet posters) about how the policy on rejected posts operates. To say that his carefully worded query is "inappropriate" hardly gives much credit to Goanet surely. It simply raises more questions than answers in the current controversy. I think if Frederick Noronha attempted to address the petition/query from Santosh it would win him plaudits currently--but of course, the petition from Santosh did not reach the Goanet membership and you would not have heard about it. It was eliminated by a nameless moderator as "inappropriate"--so hurrah for Goanet operation!

Strangely, my specific concern about Goanet's rejection of posts policy does not seem to perturb Frederick particularly in his long reply to my open letter. Above all, regardless of whether Cecil played a joke re Frederick and regardless of my taking Cecil seriously, for some time, a number of unhappy Goanetters about post rejections had alerted me that Frederick lay at the heart of actual rejections and that Bosco was just the poster boy. I had refused to accept this view until now and I think I need persuading that there is not a demon at work on Goanet re post rejections. As to exactly who it might be with so many denials in the air is pretty irrelevant. What is relevant is that there is a problem that needs sorting out in terms of Goanet needing to follow its own rules/protocols or changing them because of its inability to operationalise them satisfactorily.
Cornel
Post by Eddie Fernandes
The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no
surprise but the acrimony it has generated causes me concern. There are
valid arguments..
Santosh Helekar
2008-09-27 20:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
4: If however, Santosh Helekar has requested information
(as a member from GoaNet) directly from GoaNet admin, this cannot (I
submit) be considered to be an action of any Kangaroo Court. If FN
disagrees with this submission and wishes others on GoaNet to see the
questions collated by Santosh Helekar, he (FN) may wish to post those
questions. GoaNet members (I believe) can decide for themselves.
I posted the questions to Goanet. But somebody rejected them. The person who rejected them did not sign his name. When Viviana and Bosco reject a post they invariably sign their name. So it is unlikely that this rejection was from them. As far as GoenchimXapotam is concerned, it was created for the following purpose:

"This is a forum for all outspoken Goans and Goaphiles who want to happily engage in heated debates on an unlimited and unrestricted assortment of controversial subjects."

Nobody has his ego invested in that forum. Frederick is free to badmouth it to his heart's content. In fact, it would be courteous of him to post his rants there.

Cheers,

Santosh
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-09-27 23:17:46 UTC
Permalink
I needed some relaxation, so like many Goanetters,?I opened Goanet to see the topic d' jour; which this time was "The Open Letter ...". ?I was chuckling at?the dialog. And, ...?I fell off the chair reading the post of?Augusto Pinto (I believe Professor of English in Goa)?replying to Cornel DaCosta (I believe Professor of English in London).
?
I am unsure that even after Augusto's post?that young Goan readers understood the take home message.? Cornel's perennial problem was displayed in his latest post,?which follows his past patterns.? Likely, Cornel is not likely to change his writing style or his mindset.? So my efforts to write this post is aimed to discourage other young Goans from making the same mistakes. Augusto presented a breathtaking hilarious glimpse, which?with a satirical?pen, destroyed the conventional wisdom. The wily old fox from?Bardez (no disrespect intended) de-fanged the Londoner.
?
Writers with a Shakespearean bent and a colonial?mindset, try to present themselves as language snobs. And if one comes (or pretends to be) from Mother England, one goes a step further in presenting oneself as an aristocratic country squire.? This works well in-front?of untested readers and listeners; and those?uncertain of themselves. Yet as Augusto displayed so well, there are many who?may be?even more linguistically fertile, and can see-through the 'scholarly'? befuddlement of the presenter.? In?equally sophisticated?terms, Augusto was suggesting Cornel's long essay as, "a bunch of rants that aren't grounded in truth."
?
The thesis / thinking?often goes that people who write in a complex manner have a large vocabulary, a higher level of thinking, and?read complex material.? To some extent this is true.? Yet there is a fine line!?The writer may merely be trying to impress others by just presenting their bombastic style which displays the individual?to be?pompous and full of themselves.? They are more presenting their attitudes than communicating their thoughts and ideas (if they have any). Writers with a good grasp of the ideas and the subject-matter along with?their writing skills, will present their material in a clear, coherent and comprehensive manner. So in today's world, a long essay likely?rebuts the commonly held?thesis.? And a merely stylistic writer or speaker (with no content) sooner or later will end-up with too much egg on his face to be taken seriously. As we say in America "a good presenter must have sizzle as well as a steak".
?
In an international world, the above is not merely an essay. Below is a study of a psychologist at Princeton along with the web-link to the study http://www.collisiondetection.net/mt/archives/2006/04/study_using_big.php
Daniel Oppenheimer,?took a handful of writing samples and used a thesaurus to replace the simple words with needlessly flowery ones. His conclusions were, "As the grandiosity and complexity of the language increased, the judges estimation of the intelligence of the authors decreased. ... When an essay is filled with these sort of swapped-in synonyms, it winds up having Frankensteinian seams: You can feel its cognitive artificiality, its constipated straining to convey a higher meaning. No wonder the judges thought these essays seemed dumber."
?
Now that I have praised Augusto Pinto about this linguistic prowess, can I ask something that this supurlo Goenkar could not find his Webster's dictionary???
What is "obnubliating" (see last word below)
?
Regards, GL
?
----------- Augusto Pinto wrote:

Frederick Noronha has been subversive, misleading, misguiding, twisting,, impairing, misaddressing, abusive, deflowering, demoralising, clouding, misdirecting , weakening, get downing, debasing, counteracting, sulking, conflating, vitiating, profaning, dejecting, lead Strong, defiling, desecrating, sophisticatng, sabotaging, loading, contemning marring, taint, overturn, stretch, invalidate, deprave, adulterate, dilating, twisting urinating, undermining, bung voltage, greasing one's palms, outraging, cast downing, wooding, dispiriting, depressing, bribing, misusing, perverting, disarming, debauching, spoiling, cryptic subverting besmirching, fogging, Kuomintang, fouling, infecting, overcasting, beclouding, baffling megalomaniac, slandering, dapple, cloud, misdirect, debase, pervert, demoralize, sullen, deforming espousing, watchdog, profaning,? obscuring, misting, staining, hang over, tinting, seaming, denigrating, depriving, mottling, tarnishing,
befogging,? smirching,? spoiling, and obnubliating.
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-28 07:32:54 UTC
Permalink
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=obnubliating
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Now that I have praised Augusto Pinto about this linguistic prowess, can I ask something that
this supurlo Goenkar could not find his Webster's dictionary?
What is "obnubliating" (see last word below)
Regards, GL
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-28 07:32:54 UTC
Permalink
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=obnubliating
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Now that I have praised Augusto Pinto about this linguistic prowess, can I ask something that
this supurlo Goenkar could not find his Webster's dictionary?
What is "obnubliating" (see last word below)
Regards, GL
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-28 07:32:54 UTC
Permalink
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=obnubliating
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Now that I have praised Augusto Pinto about this linguistic prowess, can I ask something that
this supurlo Goenkar could not find his Webster's dictionary?
What is "obnubliating" (see last word below)
Regards, GL
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-09-28 10:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh
In my experience, I will agree with you that Viviana is quite happy to provide her name and reason for a post rejection. On this count I have the highest regard for her approach re Goanet and have nil disagreement with her. However, I think I'd find it easier to extract a tooth with a pair of pliers than get Bosco to provide his name and any reason for a post rejection. Moreover he has told me personally in Toronto that since April 2008, he was no longer a moderator. This assertion of his was definitely not true nor that moderation was undertaken by people as normal members of Goanet. As to Frederick for whom I definitely still hold in high esteem, perhaps you will have noted that I indicated that I was not attacking the person but the systemic mess that Goanet is in regarding hundreds of unexplained post rejects.
Cornel
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related websites
I posted the questions to Goanet. But somebody rejected
them. The person who rejected them did not sign his name.
When Viviana and Bosco reject a post they invariably sign
their name. So it is unlikely that this rejection was from
them. As far as GoenchimXapotam is concerned, it was created
"This is a forum for all outspoken Goans and Goaphiles
who want to happily engage in heated debates on an unlimited
and unrestricted assortment of controversial subjects."
Nobody has his ego invested in that forum. Frederick is
free to badmouth it to his heart's content. In fact, it
would be courteous of him to post his rants there.
Cheers,
Santosh
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-09-28 18:55:38 UTC
Permalink
My take on the word, obnubliating means clouding over, obfuscating.
Regards,
Victor


--- On Sun, 9/28/08, Frederick [FN] Noronha * ???? <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Frederick [FN] Noronha * ???? <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related websites
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 3:32 AM

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=obnubliating
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Now that I have praised Augusto Pinto about this linguistic prowess, can I
ask something that
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
this supurlo Goenkar could not find his Webster's dictionary?
What is "obnubliating" (see last word below)
Regards, GL
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Miguel Braganza
2008-09-28 18:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Dears,

I am forwarding this post as it may have got rejected because of untrimmed referal posts. Many persons have either quit Goanet, become lurkers or reduced frequency of posting because of arbitrary rejections, as I have done. It is for the Admin Team to decide whether it wants the Goanet to survive and be relevant.


Mog asundi

Miguel
Subject: Re: Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related
To: miguelbraganza at yahoo.co.in
Cc: "Goanet" <goanet at goanet.org>
Date: Sunday, 28 September, 2008, 11:54 PM
Hi Miguelbab,
I agree with you.
The moderators on Goanet are no longer impartial and
professional.
I have therefore removed my membership from Goanet.
best regards
Dominic Fernandes
On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Miguel Braganza
Dear Goanetters,
Goanet's "Moderation" is at times
actually extremist! I have nothing against Bosco
D'Mello but "Moderator" is a term that seems incongruous when used to
describe him! "Sole Arbitrator" may be a better term to use. ;-)
Bosco can choose his own style .... or at least take a sabbatical for rest and recreation like the G.I. Joes! ;-) He can come back rejuvenated .... with a bang, if necessary!
Mog asundi
Miguel
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 10:15:38 +0000 (GMT)
From: CORNEL DACOSTA <cornel at btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other
Goan related websites
<128963.14959.qm at web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Hi Santosh
I will agree with you
Moreover he [Bosco]has told me personally in Toronto
that since April 2008, he was no longer a moderator.
Cornel
From: Santosh Helekar
<chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and
other Goan related
websites
I posted the questions to Goanet. But somebody
rejected them. The person who rejected them did not sign
his name.
Santosh
Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one roof. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/
Seb dc
2008-09-29 07:25:33 UTC
Permalink
I agree too...

I actually know 6 people who have withdrawn their membership from Goanet,
one is RKN a through gentlemen.

A few years back i had opted for the Digest format. Now i occasionally post
to goanet...as its no longer the same as 5 years back.

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb
Hi Miguelbab,
I agree with you.
The moderators on Goanet are no longer impartial and
professional.
I have therefore removed my membership from Goanet.
best regards
Dominic Fernandes
Seb dc
2008-09-29 07:25:33 UTC
Permalink
I agree too...

I actually know 6 people who have withdrawn their membership from Goanet,
one is RKN a through gentlemen.

A few years back i had opted for the Digest format. Now i occasionally post
to goanet...as its no longer the same as 5 years back.

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb
Hi Miguelbab,
I agree with you.
The moderators on Goanet are no longer impartial and
professional.
I have therefore removed my membership from Goanet.
best regards
Dominic Fernandes
Seb dc
2008-09-29 07:25:33 UTC
Permalink
I agree too...

I actually know 6 people who have withdrawn their membership from Goanet,
one is RKN a through gentlemen.

A few years back i had opted for the Digest format. Now i occasionally post
to goanet...as its no longer the same as 5 years back.

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb
Hi Miguelbab,
I agree with you.
The moderators on Goanet are no longer impartial and
professional.
I have therefore removed my membership from Goanet.
best regards
Dominic Fernandes
Mario Goveia
2008-09-28 21:22:18 UTC
Permalink
? I don't know about the?rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a?Cecil Pinto?against that of fine man
like Frederick Noronha
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote???IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:54:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Dear Doc,
Infra-vide or infra-red, for a long time now my email intuitively spams Cecil Pinto's posts.? Sometimes when I check my spam folder, I find them wedged between some Nigerian scam and news that I've won the Canadian lottery. Artificial intelligence is very good at detecting the similarity between mails.
Mario observes:
I think Fred can clear all this up, especially if?he reads the following analysis and gets to my concluding advice to him, just before I respond to Eddie below.
In the interests of full disclosure I do not know either Fred or Cecil or Jose or Selma personally - only through Goanet.? I have an idea of what Cecil looks like and Fred as well because their pictures have been published.? Cecil is one of the best satirists we have in our Goan community and Fred is a decent journalist with a distinct political point of view which I disagree with most of the time.? I would not be able to vouch for their "fine-ness" if my life depended on it - and I am not sure how Selma?can vouch for Fred and denigrate Cecil, though I suspect it is because Cecil has chided her for her opinions more than once, but then, so have I, yet she loves me like a favorite uncle:-))? Her comments about her spam filter?insinuates that Cecil spams her with personal emails.? If he has done so I would be surprised because my experience with Cecil is that he does not either pull his punches or suffer fools gladly and doesn't care who knows it..
Please understand I am NOT calling anyone a fool - at least at this time.? So, everyone calm down.? I want to focus this important issue before it goes completely off the rails with Jose's pawky - look it up in the dictionary - questions and Selma's equally pawky answers, at least, so far.
a) Sounds like Selmabai did not read the totality of what Cecil wrote, hence the snide tap dance..
b) What difference does it make to his moderation of Goanet posts whether Fred is a fine man, or not?? As a Goanet member who has to deal with?inexplicably rejected posts from time to time, I would prefer a flawed?man or woman who is unbiased and empathetic and respectful towards posters over a fine man who is biased in favor of a political agenda, and has so little respect for posters that he is unable to explain why a post is being rejected and hides behind the meaningless term "Inappropriate".
c) I know for a fact, based on Fred's own admissions, that Fred is so far out on the political left wing that?he is teetering on the brink and I am concerned that he may fall off the planet:-))
d) Why did Fred ostentatiously resign as a Goanet moderator, then sneak back in without any notice, until Herman listed him as a Goanet administrator?
e) If Fred is?objective and above board in his moderation of Goanet posts, all he needs to do is to sign his name at the bottom like Bosco does, so that we know where to aim the brickbats, or, better yet, quit hiding behind the demeaning and disrespectful word "Inappropriate" when rejecting a post, and briefly explain why the post is being rejected.? Not only does this show respect for posters, without whom Goanet would be a cyber-cipher, but it gives the poster an opportunity to reconsider their post
It also requires the moderator to be less subjective and biased, which is why some moderators may not like to comply with my oft-repeated request.
Only Fred can sign his name on his rejection notices.? Only Fred can explain precisely why he is rejecting a post in a way the poster can understand.? If he refuses to either do these things or tell us why he will not, then we will know for sure?where Fred really stands.
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:54:12 +0100
From: "Eddie Fernandes" <eddie at fernandes.u-net.com>
The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no surprise but the acrimony it has generated causes me concern.
Mario asks:
Eddie,
Are you aware that?what Cornel and I and some others have asked for is,
a) that Goanet administration interpret what the topics will be more broadly to be Goan-centris as opposed to Goa-centric, because so many members do not live in Goa and may have some other interests from time to time.? I believe the administrators do this fairly well.? My popular seminars that correct misinformation and explain in simple terms?how the US system of government works is a great example:-))
b) that the moderators explain in brief why they are rejecting a post, instead of insulting us with the term "Inappropriate".? A simple explanation not only shows respect for us as posters, but gives us a chance to re-consider what we have written, edit it if necessary and re-submit, or withdraw the post.
Now, who can object to this?
Thus, there is no need for any acrimony if everyone approaches this with good will and respect for others.
Cornel is obviously angry and frustrated because of the biases and?objections of certain administrators who have failed to comply with our reasonable requests, mostly with b) above.? Cornel does not suffer fools gladly:-))? Cornel and I have had some knock-down drag-out verbal battles royale on some issues and are in the same foxhole on this issue and on our opposition to the abomination of the caste system.
On the other hand, I love all my neighbors as myself, suffer all fools with the patience of Job, and never get angry and frustrated with the perfect strangers who are my allies or adversaries?and other fellow-denizens on Goanet, or with Goanet administration.? I have enough trouble with those who LOVE me:-))
That does not mean I will ever stop demanding that the Goanet administration?be reasonable and run Goanet exactly how I want it run:-))
Carvalho
2008-09-28 22:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,
For reasons, I will elaborate on a little later, I wish not to get into this debate. Upfront, I want to clear something which I have neither said nor insinuated but like so many things get convoluted on Goanet.

Nowhere have I said or implied that Cecil spams me with private mails. Infact, let me state clearly that he does not. Lots of mails get into my spam folder, Mario, including yours. How my email decides which mail goes into spam and which is worth reading, I do not know. All I can say, is it saves me the bother.

Now, the reason I don't wish to get into this debate because, it has become the custom on Goanet, a sort of tradition in keeping with the lunar cycle, to lampoon someone or the other every time there is a full moon. This full-moon, the chosen sacrificial goat is of course Frederick Noronha. Maybe it's slim pickings out there.

In keeping with this custom, a group of men who seem wordily-wise will gather and create a conspiracy so great and chiseled, even Ian Fleming would have been impressed. Before we know it, not only is the efficiency of the person called into question, based on his political leanings but his moral efficacy as well. Pretty soon, we shall hear that FN has hatched a plot in collusion with the Chinese to systematically stem out right-wing ideology from Goanet.

I have no wish to join this lunar-festivity on Goanet. To FN, I can only say this too will pass. Soon, these men will tire of this game. I'm only sorry that your reputation will get dragged through the mud while they are at it. It is easy to forget the 14 years of hard-work you have dedicated to this site. It's also easy to forget that you are one person who is always there to help someone out, should that person need your help. Not that I'm trying to canonizing you or anything, but there it is, for what it's worth.

Take care,
selma
------------------------
? I don't know about the?rest of Goanetters but I
would never take the word of a?Cecil Pinto?against that of
fine man
like Frederick Noronha
Miguel Braganza
2008-09-29 11:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Therein you err,dear Selma.

Most of the guys who are the butt of Cecil's jokes enjoy them. There are exceptions like Remo Fernandes, my brother-in-law Savio ....but Frederick is not one of them!
Frederick edited the book DOMNIC'S GOA which was published by Abbe Faria Publications .... owned by Cecil Pinto! Offline, we had another raging controversy linked to the book and Goanet about .....Moderation, of course! ;-)
Like Goanet, Frederick has stopped moderating two other net groups due to tiffs with me ...and he keeps encouraging me to write more.

These men, they are peculiar creatures .... as even brand-new wives discover. ;-) Lucky is the spinster who does not have to deal with one!

Mog asundi.

Miguel

Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 00:11:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related
Message-ID: <108409.39863.qm at web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Dear Sandeep,
As for Cecil's humour, it depends on who is laughing. Unfortunately, it's never the person at the receiving end of it.
thank you,
selma
I think Selma probably misunderstood the context of Cecil's post, and
its true intent.
Cecil and Fred must be having a good hearty laugh over this!
Sandeep
-----------------------------------







Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one roof. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/
Mario Goveia
2008-09-29 16:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:35:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Lots of mails get into my spam folder, Mario, including yours.
Mario responds:
Good heavens! Moi??? You better call your internet provider! RIGHT NOW!
I hope you are saving and looking through your spam to catch my emails or you are at risk of losing a whole boatload of highly educational sp.., ...er, wisdom that I send your way:-))
Selma wrote:
To FN, I can only say this too will pass.
I'm only sorry that your reputation will get dragged through the mud while they are at it. It is easy to forget the 14 years of hard-work you have dedicated to this site. It's also easy to forget that you are one person who is always there to help someone out, should that person need your help.
Mario responds:
Oh, please excuse me as I wipe the tears trickling down my cheeks:-))
Selma wrote:
Soon, these men will tire of this game.
Mario responds:
You may not have noticed but I never tire when I have a valid point or in correcting falsehoods that I become aware of on Goanet.
Selma wrote:
Not that I'm trying to canonizing you or anything, but there it is, for what it's worth.
Mario responds:
Of course you are trying to canonize Fred. Who are you trying to kid? But first you need to beatify him since its probably too late to beautify him.
Finally, I have no idea ahy we are going through all this sturm and drang, since your Santa Fredericko, aka Fred Noronha, can fix all this quite easily, by being honest, unbiased and transparent in his moderation. All he has to do is to a) sign his name on his rejection notices like Viviana and Bosco do, and b) explain in brief why he is rejecting a post instead of using the demeaning, disrespectful and meaningless adjective "inappropriate".
Carvalho
2008-09-29 18:03:56 UTC
Permalink
I am researching a story on East African Goans, if anyone has a copy of the Voucher, that entitled entry into Britain in the 1960s, I would be grateful if it could be mailed to me. Also, any photographs of East African Goans in London in the 1960s would be greatly appreciated.

many thanks,
selma
Miguel Braganza
2008-09-30 13:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eugene,
?
You have surely not followed the infamous VCD thread in 2004-05, or you would not have raised this issue of "catholic-sounding name". My objection to the casteist comrade using a Catholic name is because Manohar Parrikar used it to claim that the VCD's "Scrutinizing Committee for Script" was headed by a Catholic, which Flaviano is definitely not. Flaviano is, however, proud of his "Kshatriya Chardo" caste, which a communist has no right to.
?
I have no problems with communists having catholic names. Aquino Braganza, Advisor to?Mocambique's President , Samora Macel, is my mother's first cousin. That has been discussed on this list, too.
?
I have no grouse about Frederick's "Moderating" Goajourno. That is exclusively his baby! Many of my posts just disappear. No rejection slips there. Fred is the boss. I accept that on Goajourno.
?
My grouse against Bosco's "moderating" is limited to his not being EVEN HANDED. I care a damn if half my posts are rejected ...unless someone has been permitted to abuse me and I am not given the right to a single response.
?
Bosco?does post my GT column on Goanet .... but he needs to stop pretending that he is doing ME a favour. It is the Goanet that benefits: like it or lump it.
?
Goenchim Xapotam is for those who do not want any moderation. It is like a corporate office picnic ...where the CEO can let her hair down, strip to her bikini or even swim in the nude. One is not supposed to come back to office and make snide remarks about her sagging cleavage. She is the CEO in office!?Your remarks in Goanet on JC's postings in GX are , therefore, inappropriate. ;-)
?
Mog asundi.
?
Miguel

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:03:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Eugene Correia <gene_correia at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related
??? (CORNEL??? DACOSTA)
To: goanet at lists.goanet.org
Message-ID: <909954.93315.qm at web34602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Some of my posts on GoaJourno, which Fred moderates, has never appeared and I have asked him why. Once or twice he said he did not get them. Rest of the time I have not bothered to ask him. One recent post was on Miguel's remark that Flaviano Dias, the journalist of the Goa's freedom struggle VCD, had a "Catholic-sounding" name. I questioned what is wrong with having such a name though Flaviano is a Communist, and that should Flaviano change his birth name to a name that clearly identifies as a Communist. I also said that Pio da Gama Pinto, the Kenyan martyr, was a Communist and similarly some well-known names in Goa in the past.

On the other hand, we have read that Fred does not do much of moderation on GoaNet, though I can see he handles the Goanet Reader pieces. As some have said that they would prefer more "transprency" on GoaNet, I think the level of "transperency" is quite good for now. However, I am surprised that, as Cornel has alleged, that many of his posts have been rejected. I find Cornel's posts quite sedate and not in the same class as those from Jose Colaco. I agree with Fred that the level of discussion of Goenchim Xapottam belongs to the gutter,
?
In sum up, Goanet is fairly stable. If Merwyn's suggestion of at least two members agreeing to a "controversial" post (though before Merwyn wrote I was thinking to write that the moderators get a consensus from four of them, leaving Herman out) then it should be aceptable to many of us.
Think it over, dear moderators.

Eugene Correia





Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-30 16:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Dear Miguel,

Two quick points:

1: Eugene Correia is to be excused for wanting us believe that he is a
journalist. For (as Lisette Saldanha has appropriately proved) a
journalist Eugene is NOT. No wonder he did not ascertain all the facts
of the case wrt Parrikar, "Catlic' Flaviano and the horrible VCD
before writing his usual nonsense.

2: Eugene appears to have given GoenchimXapotam (GX) quite a bit of
publicity. He would do well as a publicist. Whenever you want
bad-publicity based on half truths and quarter facts....please call on
Eugene.

If he reads carefully (which might be a stretch for him), he would
certainly notice that my "mirsangh" posts on GX are invariably in
response to some 'foul worded' posts from a person who I classify as a
religious bigot and another one who is a serial mis-representer. Both
have postured that they would boycott GoaNet ...as though ....GoaNet
depended upon any one or two posters or that anyone among us (me
included) is indispensable.

No, I am not a CEO, do not possess a bikini (never did), do not swim
in the nude, but I definitely do let my hair down ....when the
opportunity arises.

jc


2008/9/30 Miguel Braganza <miguelbraganza at yahoo.co.in>

You have surely not followed the infamous VCD thread in 2004-05, or
you would not have raised this issue of "catholic-sounding name". My
objection to the casteist comrade using a Catholic name is because
Manohar Parrikar used it to claim that the VCD's "Scrutinizing
Committee for Script" was headed by a Catholic, which Flaviano is
definitely not.

Goenchim Xapotam is for those who do not want any moderation. It is
like a corporate office picnic ...where the CEO can let her hair down,
strip to her bikini or even swim in the nude. One is not supposed to
come back to office and make snide remarks about her sagging cleavage.
She is the CEO in office! Your remarks in Goanet on JC's postings in
GX are , therefore, inappropriate. ;-)
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-30 16:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Dear Miguel,

Two quick points:

1: Eugene Correia is to be excused for wanting us believe that he is a
journalist. For (as Lisette Saldanha has appropriately proved) a
journalist Eugene is NOT. No wonder he did not ascertain all the facts
of the case wrt Parrikar, "Catlic' Flaviano and the horrible VCD
before writing his usual nonsense.

2: Eugene appears to have given GoenchimXapotam (GX) quite a bit of
publicity. He would do well as a publicist. Whenever you want
bad-publicity based on half truths and quarter facts....please call on
Eugene.

If he reads carefully (which might be a stretch for him), he would
certainly notice that my "mirsangh" posts on GX are invariably in
response to some 'foul worded' posts from a person who I classify as a
religious bigot and another one who is a serial mis-representer. Both
have postured that they would boycott GoaNet ...as though ....GoaNet
depended upon any one or two posters or that anyone among us (me
included) is indispensable.

No, I am not a CEO, do not possess a bikini (never did), do not swim
in the nude, but I definitely do let my hair down ....when the
opportunity arises.

jc


2008/9/30 Miguel Braganza <miguelbraganza at yahoo.co.in>

You have surely not followed the infamous VCD thread in 2004-05, or
you would not have raised this issue of "catholic-sounding name". My
objection to the casteist comrade using a Catholic name is because
Manohar Parrikar used it to claim that the VCD's "Scrutinizing
Committee for Script" was headed by a Catholic, which Flaviano is
definitely not.

Goenchim Xapotam is for those who do not want any moderation. It is
like a corporate office picnic ...where the CEO can let her hair down,
strip to her bikini or even swim in the nude. One is not supposed to
come back to office and make snide remarks about her sagging cleavage.
She is the CEO in office! Your remarks in Goanet on JC's postings in
GX are , therefore, inappropriate. ;-)
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-30 16:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Dear Miguel,

Two quick points:

1: Eugene Correia is to be excused for wanting us believe that he is a
journalist. For (as Lisette Saldanha has appropriately proved) a
journalist Eugene is NOT. No wonder he did not ascertain all the facts
of the case wrt Parrikar, "Catlic' Flaviano and the horrible VCD
before writing his usual nonsense.

2: Eugene appears to have given GoenchimXapotam (GX) quite a bit of
publicity. He would do well as a publicist. Whenever you want
bad-publicity based on half truths and quarter facts....please call on
Eugene.

If he reads carefully (which might be a stretch for him), he would
certainly notice that my "mirsangh" posts on GX are invariably in
response to some 'foul worded' posts from a person who I classify as a
religious bigot and another one who is a serial mis-representer. Both
have postured that they would boycott GoaNet ...as though ....GoaNet
depended upon any one or two posters or that anyone among us (me
included) is indispensable.

No, I am not a CEO, do not possess a bikini (never did), do not swim
in the nude, but I definitely do let my hair down ....when the
opportunity arises.

jc


2008/9/30 Miguel Braganza <miguelbraganza at yahoo.co.in>

You have surely not followed the infamous VCD thread in 2004-05, or
you would not have raised this issue of "catholic-sounding name". My
objection to the casteist comrade using a Catholic name is because
Manohar Parrikar used it to claim that the VCD's "Scrutinizing
Committee for Script" was headed by a Catholic, which Flaviano is
definitely not.

Goenchim Xapotam is for those who do not want any moderation. It is
like a corporate office picnic ...where the CEO can let her hair down,
strip to her bikini or even swim in the nude. One is not supposed to
come back to office and make snide remarks about her sagging cleavage.
She is the CEO in office! Your remarks in Goanet on JC's postings in
GX are , therefore, inappropriate. ;-)
Eugene Correia
2008-09-30 19:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Dear Miguel,

If by ignorance Manohar Parrikar said Flaviano was a "Catholic" it is not Flaviano's fault. My point is why should the name matter. Hence, why should you "harp" or "carp" on it?

Eugene
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-30 19:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Hello!

Is not that what Miguel meant by ""catholic-sounding name"?

i.e. that while his name was Catholic sounding, he was NOT a Catholic
or "CatLic" as Parrikar implied ....while answering the question put
to him (at least) on the NDTV show?

If you were a serious (let's say ...quarter serious journalist, you
would have checked that out before spouting your usual nonsense.

Would you not?

jc


2008/9/30 Eugene Correia <gene_correia at yahoo.com>

If by ignorance Manohar Parrikar said Flaviano was a "Catholic" it is
not Flaviano's fault. My point is why should the name matter. Hence,
why should you "harp" or "carp" on it?

Eugene
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-30 19:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Hello!

Is not that what Miguel meant by ""catholic-sounding name"?

i.e. that while his name was Catholic sounding, he was NOT a Catholic
or "CatLic" as Parrikar implied ....while answering the question put
to him (at least) on the NDTV show?

If you were a serious (let's say ...quarter serious journalist, you
would have checked that out before spouting your usual nonsense.

Would you not?

jc


2008/9/30 Eugene Correia <gene_correia at yahoo.com>

If by ignorance Manohar Parrikar said Flaviano was a "Catholic" it is
not Flaviano's fault. My point is why should the name matter. Hence,
why should you "harp" or "carp" on it?

Eugene
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-30 19:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Hello!

Is not that what Miguel meant by ""catholic-sounding name"?

i.e. that while his name was Catholic sounding, he was NOT a Catholic
or "CatLic" as Parrikar implied ....while answering the question put
to him (at least) on the NDTV show?

If you were a serious (let's say ...quarter serious journalist, you
would have checked that out before spouting your usual nonsense.

Would you not?

jc


2008/9/30 Eugene Correia <gene_correia at yahoo.com>

If by ignorance Manohar Parrikar said Flaviano was a "Catholic" it is
not Flaviano's fault. My point is why should the name matter. Hence,
why should you "harp" or "carp" on it?

Eugene
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-10-01 01:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Those serious about?their complaints would make a stronger case if they?enlightened us on the several topics related to these rejected posts.? The readers can decide if these subject matters are Goa-related or Goan-centric. Right now, it appears that there is a lot of personal attacks even though efforts are made to deny this.?Instead of Fred, are his critics obnubliating? (clouding over, obfuscating - definition thanks to Victor).

As regards?Miguel's point below,?it is also?possible that some posters are suffering from "posters'? fatigue". ?Are they?resorting to increasingly virulent posts to gain some attention / notoriety?? This is not a reference to any particular post or poster. But?it is?an extension of?Miguel's valid point. Perhaps some posters?should take a rest and find some other way to keep their fingers busy?? This is what I am trying to do. ..... Really.
Regards, GL

-------------- Miguel Braganza

Bosco seems to be suffering from "Moderation fatigue" like some people in Goa are suffering form ..... Bosco can choose his own style .... or at least take a sabbatical for rest and recreation like the G.I. Joes! ;-) He can come back rejuvenated .... with a bang, if necessary!
dommartin9 at juno.com (Dom Martin )
2008-10-01 04:57:38 UTC
Permalink
In the Chinese sapience, one risks having three fingers admonishing oneself as one points a damning finger at the other. In the crab or "carp" omniscience, options are limited and rather intimidating. One can?t go after a fellow crab with one claw fully extended and the other twisted 180 degrees to safeguard the rear!

Thus, in the crab or carp attack mode, one?s rear is left exposed to baiters and alligators, all going for the sectarian legs -- one vindictive nibble at a time -- until one is legless and directionally clueless at the bottom of a self-patented fishbowl. And truly, a legless crab with its claw-rattling gene intact, is a piteously unproductive resource to oneself, one?s allies and abettors.

Solution: Practice ahimsa. It will prompt you to engage truth as your advocate and God for Judge.

Dom Martin



____________________________________________________________
Want a great salary and great benefits? Click here to start a criminal justice career.
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CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-09-26 15:27:19 UTC
Permalink
OPEN LETTER TO GOANET AND OTHER GOAN RELATED WEBSITES

We have had Cecil Pinto's confirmation on GX (GoenchimXapotam) that, it is Frederick Noronha who rejects large numbers of posts sent to Goanet without the slightest whiff of an explanation. This disclosure has not been rebutted by Frederick for over a fortnight and I therefore want to congratulate him on his contribution towards corruption and the absence of transparency for which India has just been rated 85th out of 180 countries on the Transparency International Survey. But what on earth am I talking about?

Anyone who googles Transparency International will discover that since 1995, there has been an official international body (executive director, Chandrashekhar Krishan) that studies corruption in differnt countries and provides such data in a league table. The latest was published on 23/9/08 and its details, especially on its methodology, are on Google.

Many will recall that since the start of 2008, there has been a huge number of posts rejected by Goanet without explanation. This prompted several posters to question what was going on rather unexpectedly. In my case, I had 25 to 30 rejections since Jan 2008 and virtually none among many hundreds, in the previous six years--and of course, I had not changed my general focus nor writing style in any way! Others had similar experiences and this led to Santosh Helekar kindly agreeing on behalf of others, to list key questions that needed to be addressed by Goanet--specifically relating to the rejection of posts without explanation. The immediate response to Santosh Helekar's very polite and precise query was the standard rejection note that his post was "inappropriate". It was of course sent by a person who chose to remain anonymous and so much in keeping with recent Goanet practice!

Unfortunately, I am only now able to respond to the totally unexpected info (at least for me) that good old Frederick Noronha lay at the heart of the rejection racket whilst taking good care not to be discovered as the villain of the piece. Coincidentally, just after Cecil's disclosure about Frederick Noronha's role vis a vis Goanet, I happened to be in Russia where among the academics I met, the central concerns were: a) the problem of growing corruption at all levels in that society including the Net, schools, colleges, universities, employment etc. The parallels with India seemed very close but the Transparency International League table now puts Russia at 147 compared to India at 85 out of 180 nations. b) the absence of a free press in Russia and the wide use of censorship.

I naturally found it difficult to believe that Frederick Noronha whom I have always held to be a decent guy was the source of so much unrest among serious and highly educated posters on Goanet and therefore wish to make the following observations, knowing full well that this post is unlikely to appear on Goanet for the simple reason that Goanet cannot handle even the mildest form of constructive criticism. It will howeve be read widely and Goanet members will have access to it irespective of every means that Goanet tries to block it:

1. If indeed, Frederick Noronha is (with others) the owner of the Goanet site, I can accept that, it is his prerogative to reject those posts he does not personally consider acceptable for his site. However, he and his fellow site owners have TOTALLY FAILED to inform us posters that this is indeed a private site in which he (Frederick Noronha and unnamed associates) can do as they please with absolutely no regard for any accountability nor any concern for the posters. Had he and his associates acted properly, there would not be a need for several posters, unhappy with Goanet post rejections, to try to endlessly extract information from the so called moderators about the discernible pattern of post rejections. This lack of transparency regarding Frederick Noronha's hidden hand on Goanet is in my view, one clear illustration of corrupt practice on Goanet. Why on earth not just come clean and say that only what he says goes on Goanet instead of
consistently pussy-footing about the 'constructive objectives' of Goanet, endlessly welcoming posts and commentary but operating very much like Lady Macbeth as an assassin from behind the scenes?

2. Another example of corrupt practice on Goanet is when consistency is absent. At least one moderator will provide a reason for the rejection of a post and indeed be named so that at least something may be done about it. Yet, virtually all others will remain anonymous (whoever they are) and will use the sham of a standardised rejection note. When the available Goanet protocol is followed up to seek an explanation for a rejection, the question simply ends up in limbo everytime. If Frederick permits this kind of corrupt practice as a site owner, questions are surely reasonable regarding his personal integrity in running an international web site with the hollow sham that "Goanet is where Goans connect" when instead hundreds of post rejections represent a major 'disconnect' without reasons.

3. Information about exactly who the moderators are is steeped in secrecy. Surely, it is incumbent on Frederick Noronha and his fellow site owners to make this information clear so as to curtail contradictory versions emanating from so called moderators of Goanet who pathetically try to remain nameless.

4. Another form of corruption is that Frederick Noronha appears to perform the role of a newspaper editor where indeed the editor traditionally has the last word (normally without explanation) regarding a letter to the editor. However, a web-site like Goanet is not run like a newspaper. It is indeed dependent on a large number of posters who sustain discourse. Unexplained rejections of posts on Goanet inevitably stifle such discourse. If such supression of posts by elimination did not take place, Frederick Noronha as one of the site owners would hardly appear at the top of the list for posts published virtually every month! Surely, his personal integrity requires some explanation re this peculiar conundrum or we should be informed that it is his personal greater glory that is important to him rather than Goanet being of purported concern about Goan matters in Goa and the Goan Diaspora. A cheeky question would be if anyone ever moderates any of the site
owners' posts, and if not, why not? And why the implicit racket of them and us on Goanet?

4. It is corrupt if it is not made clear to posters that certain ideological positions are unacceptable or indeed that his 'chieftenship' Frederick Noronha, effectively dictates what is aceeptable or not. His role smacks of authoritarian censorship evident in communist and fascist regimes. This is particularly strange for someone who is purportedly a professional journalist and purportedly a strong advocate for democracy. Further, if the intelligencia in Goa of which Goanet is clearly a part, performs as Goanet does on the inexplicable rejection of posts in significant numbers, is it any surprise that Goa is in the absolute mess that it is in with regard to corruption? Put simply, Frederick Noronha and his fellow site owners seem to be complicit in the very corruption they pretend to disown and abhor. Openess in discourse is the key towards the elimination of the hidden hand of corruption that clearly permeates Goanet through and through.

5. Non explanation for the rejection of posts allows for the corrupt practice of avoiding reading or engaging with the posts received by the moderators.

6. The paradox for me is that India does have an excellent press that in many ways emulates the best traditions of the UK press in which nothing is sacred except what affects state security. How then is it possible that Frederick Noronha runs a Goanet 'racket' in which everyting is highly secretive and totally lacking in transparency? I am sure the many Goan websites where this post of mine will be transmitted, would like to have Frederick's answer to this question out of sheer curiosity if nothing else.

Finally, for me, the annual report from Transparency International was most timely. Its appearance coincided precisely with a time when I was reflecting on corruption and lack of transparency on Goanet. I therefore have, with many regrets, to assert strongly that, Goanet is a seriously non transparent organisation with the hidden hand of corruption all over it. No other website that I am familiar with reaches the depth of corruption and non transparency as Goanet does.

This trenchant criticism is not meant to be personal but it is the only way I can focus on the serious systemic shortcomings of Goanet.
Cornel DaCosta, London, UK.
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-26 15:57:41 UTC
Permalink
It is sometimes important for pure nonsense to go through too. That's
the price we all pay for free speech. FN
Post by CORNEL DACOSTA
OPEN LETTER TO GOANET AND OTHER GOAN RELATED WEBSITES
We have had Cecil Pinto's confirmation on GX (GoenchimXapotam) that, it is
Frederick Noronha who rejects large numbers of posts sent to Goanet without
the slightest whiff of an explanation. This disclosure has not been rebutted
by Frederick for over a fortnight and I therefore want to congratulate him
on his contribution towards corruption and the absence of transparency for
which India has just been rated 85th out of 180 countries on the
Transparency International Survey. But what on earth am I talking about? ...
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
Blog: http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Tech links from South Asia: http://twitter.com/fn
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Carvalho
2008-09-26 16:47:36 UTC
Permalink
I don't know about the rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a Cecil Pinto against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha.

selma
Post by CORNEL DACOSTA
We have had Cecil Pinto's confirmation on GX
(GoenchimXapotam) that, it is Frederick Noronha who rejects
large numbers of posts sent to Goanet without the slightest
whiff of an explanation.
ralph rau
2008-09-26 17:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Cornel DaCosta seems to be distressed that his deserving and enlightening posts have not seen the light of day on Goanet.

To be honest I too have suspected Fred Noronha of being an arbitrary and high handed editor of goanet. But I have neither the time nor the inclination to offer myself for this honorary post.

Maybe the moderators need to offer the editor's post to Cornel DaCosta for "a term". I hope Cornel volunteers or else forever holds his peace.
Carvalho
2008-09-26 17:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Dear Doc,
Infra-vide or infra-red, for a long time now my email intuitively spams Cecil Pinto's posts. Sometimes when I check my spam folder, I find them wedged between some Nigerian scam and news that I've won the Canadian lottery. Artificial intelligence is very good at detecting the similarity between mails.

selma
From: J. Colaco < jc> <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related websites
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 12:09 PM
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote?
IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted
infra?
jc
2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>: I
don't know about the
rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a
Cecil Pinto
against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha
Eddie Fernandes
2008-09-26 22:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Folks,

The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no surprise but the
acrimony it has generated causes me concern. There are valid arguments on
all sides, each person giving vent to their despair of what they see as
requisites to improving the GoaNet service. There are no villains on the
stage only Heroes and Heroines!

As I see it, the discussion is basically about two ends of the spectrum. FN
and the rest of the admin team is concerned about the number of members to
join GoaNet and leave soon afterwards. He prefers the GoaNet digest version,
posts in plain text and would like the number of contributors increased.
Cornel would like to see less moderation and more messages.

There is no reason why we should have to choose between one and the other.
GoaNet had not changed much since its inception and is still essentially an
email based service for contributors. Many other discussion lists have
turned into web-based services and there are many advantages of going down
that path. Now that broadband and fast internet speeds are here, the old
arguments about cost are no longer valid. The main advantage would be to
split the discussion list into threads and give readers the option of
subscribing to all discussions or only those threads that interest them.

One of the current problems is that it is impossible to find previous posts
on a subject such as recommended restaurants, internet connections, recent
books etc. Also, some discussions on topics like sports, employment, village
nets have been moved to separate lists. There is no reason why they cannot
have separate threads in GoaNet. One keyword search, say on fishing or
restaurant* would bring together discussion on that topic.

To provide specific examples how this would work, take a look as some
Goa-related wed-based discussion lists:

1. British Expats.com.
http://britishexpats.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=6773bb87d7adda768edac61914
c9ec70&f=94
Discussion on topics such as Hiring a Car in Goa; Medical care in Goa; Where
Do You Buy Your Diamonds in Goa

2. Holiday Truths.com. http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=60
Topics such as Malaria; Restaurants; Wifi

3. India Mike. http://www.indiamike.com/india/goa-f23/ Threads such as
Sim/Phone cards; Motorbike Rental; Dentists in Goa.

If GoaNet switches to a web-based service, readers will be able to select
the threads that interest them, messages by email would be reduced,
searching for information will be efficient and posting in plain text would
not be compulsory

And as less moderation would be required, let there be Peace!

Eddie Fernandes
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-27 13:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Possibly in response to the rather voluminous and
largely-based-on-misconceptions-and-biases Cornel da Costa tirade
directed against Frederick Noronha (FN)

(a) FN responded on Sept 26, 2008 : As for myself, I don't see Dr
Cornel as being on track for the reasons outlined here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewDiaspora/message/5855 . If others
feel otherwise, it is an issue which can, and should, be DEBATED.

(b) On that 'NewDiaspora' site that FN directed us to, he (FN) writes
the following: Please look at the quality of the discussions on a
network built to act as an alternative here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goenchimxapotam/ To expect me to respond
to the kangaroo court of Goenchim Xapotam is asking for too much.

==

jc's response wsr to FN's 'semi-call' for this to be DEBATED:



1: I found Cornel's diatribe significantly "over the top".

2: Cornel has (perhaps conveniently, perhaps in ignorance, but
definitely inappropriately) used Cecil's tongue in cheeck post to lash
out inappropriately at Frederick (FN).

3: FN is quite within his rights to NOT answer any questions posed to
him on another discussion list i.e. including GoenchimXapotam.

4: If however, Santosh Helekar has requested information (as a member
from GoaNet) directly from GoaNet admin, this cannot (I submit) be
considered to be an action of any Kangaroo Court. If FN disagrees with
this submission and wishes others on GoaNet to see the questions
collated by Santosh Helekar, he (FN) may wish to post those questions.
GoaNet members (I believe) can decide for themselves.

5: Just for information, I did not believe that GoaNet-admin would
answer any questions and hence did not bother to submit any questions
(to Santosh Helekar) to be forwarded to GoaNet. I also have repeatedly
stated that I am very happy with the terms and conditions I face on
GoaNet.....and that if I did not like them ....I was free to take a
hike.

6: I however am concerned at what FN has written on the 'NewDiaspora' site.

Please vide (b) above. I submit (once again) that FN is factually
incorrect and definitely misleading in his posting there.

Firstly: Neither Santosh Helekar nor anybody else made any attempt to
BUILD 'Goenchimxapotam'. Santoshbab merely secured a site for those
who wanted to Rant and Rave without disturbing the good people of
GoaNet.

Secondly: 'Goenchimxapotam' was NEVER meant (nor is it ever going to
be meant) to be an ALTERNATIVE to anything, let alone to GoaNet. FN
would do well by NOT misrepresenting the idea behind
'Goenchimxapotam'. I invite him (FN) to correct this
mis-representation he has placed on that 'NewDiaspora' site.

7: We too will do well IF we try to understand WHY this present
controversy took off on on GoenchinXapotam. . IF we need a reminder,
here it is:

This ill-feeling started with the horrendous personal attack by Eugene
Correia on the FAMILY of two very decent and hard working people i.e.
Lisette and Kevin Saldanha. The situation was worsened by the
inability of the Saldanhas to respond in good time to Mr. Correia.
(There are other issues relating to Francis Rodrigues and Roland
Francis which I will not get into here.)

We should NOT delude ourselves about the Saldanha-GoaNet matter. It is
my personal belief, and you may disagree, that the Saldanhas have a
very good reason to believe that they were treated very very unfairly
by the moderators of GoaNet.

That there are zillions of messages to moderate etc can explain the
occasional 'inappropriate' message which goes through. It does NOT
answer the main (IMHO) query that was asked of GoaNet admin i.e. Are
there some individuals who are moderated and some who are not? IF so,
What are the criteria for such discrimination?

Ask yourself, FN: WHICH ENTITY comes out of this looking like the
Kangaroo Court?

A small little free-for-all, take -out-your frustrations site like
Goenchimxapotam, or GoaNet admin which refuses to be transparent with
GoaNet members and which more than occasionally allows the Moderators
to break the very GoaNet rules they say they strive to up- hold?

just my view - and FN or alia may have the last word on this. It is
highly likely that I have totally misunderstood FN's post on the
'NewDiaspora' site. If I am proven to be wrong, I will happily stand
corrected. FN is also quite within his rights to slam me - for
whatever. The questions from Santosh Helekar ....meanwhile, remain
unanswered.


jc
One who believes that we are ALL Kangaroos. It is just that we (all)
like to believe that our own courts are Giraffe courts (tall and
upstanding) and theirs...Kangaroo.

ps: For the record: Will be posting this on 'Goenchimxapotam '
CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-09-27 20:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Eddie
Your suggestions for Goanet to adjust to the diversity of interests is quite interesting and original.

However, with regard to your reply below, I definitely have no change in mind for Goanet. I am happy with it except for one simple point. Goanet protocols allow for a reason to be provided why a post is rejected as "inappropriate". This built in protocol is ignored almost always by Goanet moderation personnel. If not true, there would be some evidence that reasons are provided when they are requested. Unfortunately, they have NEVER worked for me and several others since Jan/Feb 2008.

I would rather that Goanet stated that no reasons for rejections will be provided and I could live with that--after all, Goanet is a privilege and not a right to posters. However, it is the clandestine rejection of posts, that is the source of concern for me and many others and especially, the lack of any transparency re Goanet's own protocols on rejections.

On another point, Santosh Helekar deserves a reply to his polite and reasoned petition (on behalf of several Goanet posters) about how the policy on rejected posts operates. To say that his carefully worded query is "inappropriate" hardly gives much credit to Goanet surely. It simply raises more questions than answers in the current controversy. I think if Frederick Noronha attempted to address the petition/query from Santosh it would win him plaudits currently--but of course, the petition from Santosh did not reach the Goanet membership and you would not have heard about it. It was eliminated by a nameless moderator as "inappropriate"--so hurrah for Goanet operation!

Strangely, my specific concern about Goanet's rejection of posts policy does not seem to perturb Frederick particularly in his long reply to my open letter. Above all, regardless of whether Cecil played a joke re Frederick and regardless of my taking Cecil seriously, for some time, a number of unhappy Goanetters about post rejections had alerted me that Frederick lay at the heart of actual rejections and that Bosco was just the poster boy. I had refused to accept this view until now and I think I need persuading that there is not a demon at work on Goanet re post rejections. As to exactly who it might be with so many denials in the air is pretty irrelevant. What is relevant is that there is a problem that needs sorting out in terms of Goanet needing to follow its own rules/protocols or changing them because of its inability to operationalise them satisfactorily.
Cornel
Post by Eddie Fernandes
The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no
surprise but the acrimony it has generated causes me concern. There are
valid arguments..
Santosh Helekar
2008-09-27 20:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
4: If however, Santosh Helekar has requested information
(as a member from GoaNet) directly from GoaNet admin, this cannot (I
submit) be considered to be an action of any Kangaroo Court. If FN
disagrees with this submission and wishes others on GoaNet to see the
questions collated by Santosh Helekar, he (FN) may wish to post those
questions. GoaNet members (I believe) can decide for themselves.
I posted the questions to Goanet. But somebody rejected them. The person who rejected them did not sign his name. When Viviana and Bosco reject a post they invariably sign their name. So it is unlikely that this rejection was from them. As far as GoenchimXapotam is concerned, it was created for the following purpose:

"This is a forum for all outspoken Goans and Goaphiles who want to happily engage in heated debates on an unlimited and unrestricted assortment of controversial subjects."

Nobody has his ego invested in that forum. Frederick is free to badmouth it to his heart's content. In fact, it would be courteous of him to post his rants there.

Cheers,

Santosh
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-09-27 23:17:46 UTC
Permalink
I needed some relaxation, so like many Goanetters,?I opened Goanet to see the topic d' jour; which this time was "The Open Letter ...". ?I was chuckling at?the dialog. And, ...?I fell off the chair reading the post of?Augusto Pinto (I believe Professor of English in Goa)?replying to Cornel DaCosta (I believe Professor of English in London).
?
I am unsure that even after Augusto's post?that young Goan readers understood the take home message.? Cornel's perennial problem was displayed in his latest post,?which follows his past patterns.? Likely, Cornel is not likely to change his writing style or his mindset.? So my efforts to write this post is aimed to discourage other young Goans from making the same mistakes. Augusto presented a breathtaking hilarious glimpse, which?with a satirical?pen, destroyed the conventional wisdom. The wily old fox from?Bardez (no disrespect intended) de-fanged the Londoner.
?
Writers with a Shakespearean bent and a colonial?mindset, try to present themselves as language snobs. And if one comes (or pretends to be) from Mother England, one goes a step further in presenting oneself as an aristocratic country squire.? This works well in-front?of untested readers and listeners; and those?uncertain of themselves. Yet as Augusto displayed so well, there are many who?may be?even more linguistically fertile, and can see-through the 'scholarly'? befuddlement of the presenter.? In?equally sophisticated?terms, Augusto was suggesting Cornel's long essay as, "a bunch of rants that aren't grounded in truth."
?
The thesis / thinking?often goes that people who write in a complex manner have a large vocabulary, a higher level of thinking, and?read complex material.? To some extent this is true.? Yet there is a fine line!?The writer may merely be trying to impress others by just presenting their bombastic style which displays the individual?to be?pompous and full of themselves.? They are more presenting their attitudes than communicating their thoughts and ideas (if they have any). Writers with a good grasp of the ideas and the subject-matter along with?their writing skills, will present their material in a clear, coherent and comprehensive manner. So in today's world, a long essay likely?rebuts the commonly held?thesis.? And a merely stylistic writer or speaker (with no content) sooner or later will end-up with too much egg on his face to be taken seriously. As we say in America "a good presenter must have sizzle as well as a steak".
?
In an international world, the above is not merely an essay. Below is a study of a psychologist at Princeton along with the web-link to the study http://www.collisiondetection.net/mt/archives/2006/04/study_using_big.php
Daniel Oppenheimer,?took a handful of writing samples and used a thesaurus to replace the simple words with needlessly flowery ones. His conclusions were, "As the grandiosity and complexity of the language increased, the judges estimation of the intelligence of the authors decreased. ... When an essay is filled with these sort of swapped-in synonyms, it winds up having Frankensteinian seams: You can feel its cognitive artificiality, its constipated straining to convey a higher meaning. No wonder the judges thought these essays seemed dumber."
?
Now that I have praised Augusto Pinto about this linguistic prowess, can I ask something that this supurlo Goenkar could not find his Webster's dictionary???
What is "obnubliating" (see last word below)
?
Regards, GL
?
----------- Augusto Pinto wrote:

Frederick Noronha has been subversive, misleading, misguiding, twisting,, impairing, misaddressing, abusive, deflowering, demoralising, clouding, misdirecting , weakening, get downing, debasing, counteracting, sulking, conflating, vitiating, profaning, dejecting, lead Strong, defiling, desecrating, sophisticatng, sabotaging, loading, contemning marring, taint, overturn, stretch, invalidate, deprave, adulterate, dilating, twisting urinating, undermining, bung voltage, greasing one's palms, outraging, cast downing, wooding, dispiriting, depressing, bribing, misusing, perverting, disarming, debauching, spoiling, cryptic subverting besmirching, fogging, Kuomintang, fouling, infecting, overcasting, beclouding, baffling megalomaniac, slandering, dapple, cloud, misdirect, debase, pervert, demoralize, sullen, deforming espousing, watchdog, profaning,? obscuring, misting, staining, hang over, tinting, seaming, denigrating, depriving, mottling, tarnishing,
befogging,? smirching,? spoiling, and obnubliating.
CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-09-28 10:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh
In my experience, I will agree with you that Viviana is quite happy to provide her name and reason for a post rejection. On this count I have the highest regard for her approach re Goanet and have nil disagreement with her. However, I think I'd find it easier to extract a tooth with a pair of pliers than get Bosco to provide his name and any reason for a post rejection. Moreover he has told me personally in Toronto that since April 2008, he was no longer a moderator. This assertion of his was definitely not true nor that moderation was undertaken by people as normal members of Goanet. As to Frederick for whom I definitely still hold in high esteem, perhaps you will have noted that I indicated that I was not attacking the person but the systemic mess that Goanet is in regarding hundreds of unexplained post rejects.
Cornel
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related websites
I posted the questions to Goanet. But somebody rejected
them. The person who rejected them did not sign his name.
When Viviana and Bosco reject a post they invariably sign
their name. So it is unlikely that this rejection was from
them. As far as GoenchimXapotam is concerned, it was created
"This is a forum for all outspoken Goans and Goaphiles
who want to happily engage in heated debates on an unlimited
and unrestricted assortment of controversial subjects."
Nobody has his ego invested in that forum. Frederick is
free to badmouth it to his heart's content. In fact, it
would be courteous of him to post his rants there.
Cheers,
Santosh
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-09-28 18:55:38 UTC
Permalink
My take on the word, obnubliating means clouding over, obfuscating.
Regards,
Victor


--- On Sun, 9/28/08, Frederick [FN] Noronha * ???? <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Frederick [FN] Noronha * ???? <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related websites
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 3:32 AM

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=obnubliating
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Now that I have praised Augusto Pinto about this linguistic prowess, can I
ask something that
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
this supurlo Goenkar could not find his Webster's dictionary?
What is "obnubliating" (see last word below)
Regards, GL
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Miguel Braganza
2008-09-28 18:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Dears,

I am forwarding this post as it may have got rejected because of untrimmed referal posts. Many persons have either quit Goanet, become lurkers or reduced frequency of posting because of arbitrary rejections, as I have done. It is for the Admin Team to decide whether it wants the Goanet to survive and be relevant.


Mog asundi

Miguel
Subject: Re: Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related
To: miguelbraganza at yahoo.co.in
Cc: "Goanet" <goanet at goanet.org>
Date: Sunday, 28 September, 2008, 11:54 PM
Hi Miguelbab,
I agree with you.
The moderators on Goanet are no longer impartial and
professional.
I have therefore removed my membership from Goanet.
best regards
Dominic Fernandes
On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Miguel Braganza
Dear Goanetters,
Goanet's "Moderation" is at times
actually extremist! I have nothing against Bosco
D'Mello but "Moderator" is a term that seems incongruous when used to
describe him! "Sole Arbitrator" may be a better term to use. ;-)
Bosco can choose his own style .... or at least take a sabbatical for rest and recreation like the G.I. Joes! ;-) He can come back rejuvenated .... with a bang, if necessary!
Mog asundi
Miguel
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 10:15:38 +0000 (GMT)
From: CORNEL DACOSTA <cornel at btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other
Goan related websites
<128963.14959.qm at web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Hi Santosh
I will agree with you
Moreover he [Bosco]has told me personally in Toronto
that since April 2008, he was no longer a moderator.
Cornel
From: Santosh Helekar
<chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and
other Goan related
websites
I posted the questions to Goanet. But somebody
rejected them. The person who rejected them did not sign
his name.
Santosh
Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one roof. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/
Mario Goveia
2008-09-28 21:22:18 UTC
Permalink
? I don't know about the?rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a?Cecil Pinto?against that of fine man
like Frederick Noronha
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote???IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:54:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Dear Doc,
Infra-vide or infra-red, for a long time now my email intuitively spams Cecil Pinto's posts.? Sometimes when I check my spam folder, I find them wedged between some Nigerian scam and news that I've won the Canadian lottery. Artificial intelligence is very good at detecting the similarity between mails.
Mario observes:
I think Fred can clear all this up, especially if?he reads the following analysis and gets to my concluding advice to him, just before I respond to Eddie below.
In the interests of full disclosure I do not know either Fred or Cecil or Jose or Selma personally - only through Goanet.? I have an idea of what Cecil looks like and Fred as well because their pictures have been published.? Cecil is one of the best satirists we have in our Goan community and Fred is a decent journalist with a distinct political point of view which I disagree with most of the time.? I would not be able to vouch for their "fine-ness" if my life depended on it - and I am not sure how Selma?can vouch for Fred and denigrate Cecil, though I suspect it is because Cecil has chided her for her opinions more than once, but then, so have I, yet she loves me like a favorite uncle:-))? Her comments about her spam filter?insinuates that Cecil spams her with personal emails.? If he has done so I would be surprised because my experience with Cecil is that he does not either pull his punches or suffer fools gladly and doesn't care who knows it..
Please understand I am NOT calling anyone a fool - at least at this time.? So, everyone calm down.? I want to focus this important issue before it goes completely off the rails with Jose's pawky - look it up in the dictionary - questions and Selma's equally pawky answers, at least, so far.
a) Sounds like Selmabai did not read the totality of what Cecil wrote, hence the snide tap dance..
b) What difference does it make to his moderation of Goanet posts whether Fred is a fine man, or not?? As a Goanet member who has to deal with?inexplicably rejected posts from time to time, I would prefer a flawed?man or woman who is unbiased and empathetic and respectful towards posters over a fine man who is biased in favor of a political agenda, and has so little respect for posters that he is unable to explain why a post is being rejected and hides behind the meaningless term "Inappropriate".
c) I know for a fact, based on Fred's own admissions, that Fred is so far out on the political left wing that?he is teetering on the brink and I am concerned that he may fall off the planet:-))
d) Why did Fred ostentatiously resign as a Goanet moderator, then sneak back in without any notice, until Herman listed him as a Goanet administrator?
e) If Fred is?objective and above board in his moderation of Goanet posts, all he needs to do is to sign his name at the bottom like Bosco does, so that we know where to aim the brickbats, or, better yet, quit hiding behind the demeaning and disrespectful word "Inappropriate" when rejecting a post, and briefly explain why the post is being rejected.? Not only does this show respect for posters, without whom Goanet would be a cyber-cipher, but it gives the poster an opportunity to reconsider their post
It also requires the moderator to be less subjective and biased, which is why some moderators may not like to comply with my oft-repeated request.
Only Fred can sign his name on his rejection notices.? Only Fred can explain precisely why he is rejecting a post in a way the poster can understand.? If he refuses to either do these things or tell us why he will not, then we will know for sure?where Fred really stands.
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:54:12 +0100
From: "Eddie Fernandes" <eddie at fernandes.u-net.com>
The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no surprise but the acrimony it has generated causes me concern.
Mario asks:
Eddie,
Are you aware that?what Cornel and I and some others have asked for is,
a) that Goanet administration interpret what the topics will be more broadly to be Goan-centris as opposed to Goa-centric, because so many members do not live in Goa and may have some other interests from time to time.? I believe the administrators do this fairly well.? My popular seminars that correct misinformation and explain in simple terms?how the US system of government works is a great example:-))
b) that the moderators explain in brief why they are rejecting a post, instead of insulting us with the term "Inappropriate".? A simple explanation not only shows respect for us as posters, but gives us a chance to re-consider what we have written, edit it if necessary and re-submit, or withdraw the post.
Now, who can object to this?
Thus, there is no need for any acrimony if everyone approaches this with good will and respect for others.
Cornel is obviously angry and frustrated because of the biases and?objections of certain administrators who have failed to comply with our reasonable requests, mostly with b) above.? Cornel does not suffer fools gladly:-))? Cornel and I have had some knock-down drag-out verbal battles royale on some issues and are in the same foxhole on this issue and on our opposition to the abomination of the caste system.
On the other hand, I love all my neighbors as myself, suffer all fools with the patience of Job, and never get angry and frustrated with the perfect strangers who are my allies or adversaries?and other fellow-denizens on Goanet, or with Goanet administration.? I have enough trouble with those who LOVE me:-))
That does not mean I will ever stop demanding that the Goanet administration?be reasonable and run Goanet exactly how I want it run:-))
Carvalho
2008-09-28 22:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,
For reasons, I will elaborate on a little later, I wish not to get into this debate. Upfront, I want to clear something which I have neither said nor insinuated but like so many things get convoluted on Goanet.

Nowhere have I said or implied that Cecil spams me with private mails. Infact, let me state clearly that he does not. Lots of mails get into my spam folder, Mario, including yours. How my email decides which mail goes into spam and which is worth reading, I do not know. All I can say, is it saves me the bother.

Now, the reason I don't wish to get into this debate because, it has become the custom on Goanet, a sort of tradition in keeping with the lunar cycle, to lampoon someone or the other every time there is a full moon. This full-moon, the chosen sacrificial goat is of course Frederick Noronha. Maybe it's slim pickings out there.

In keeping with this custom, a group of men who seem wordily-wise will gather and create a conspiracy so great and chiseled, even Ian Fleming would have been impressed. Before we know it, not only is the efficiency of the person called into question, based on his political leanings but his moral efficacy as well. Pretty soon, we shall hear that FN has hatched a plot in collusion with the Chinese to systematically stem out right-wing ideology from Goanet.

I have no wish to join this lunar-festivity on Goanet. To FN, I can only say this too will pass. Soon, these men will tire of this game. I'm only sorry that your reputation will get dragged through the mud while they are at it. It is easy to forget the 14 years of hard-work you have dedicated to this site. It's also easy to forget that you are one person who is always there to help someone out, should that person need your help. Not that I'm trying to canonizing you or anything, but there it is, for what it's worth.

Take care,
selma
------------------------
? I don't know about the?rest of Goanetters but I
would never take the word of a?Cecil Pinto?against that of
fine man
like Frederick Noronha
Miguel Braganza
2008-09-29 11:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Therein you err,dear Selma.

Most of the guys who are the butt of Cecil's jokes enjoy them. There are exceptions like Remo Fernandes, my brother-in-law Savio ....but Frederick is not one of them!
Frederick edited the book DOMNIC'S GOA which was published by Abbe Faria Publications .... owned by Cecil Pinto! Offline, we had another raging controversy linked to the book and Goanet about .....Moderation, of course! ;-)
Like Goanet, Frederick has stopped moderating two other net groups due to tiffs with me ...and he keeps encouraging me to write more.

These men, they are peculiar creatures .... as even brand-new wives discover. ;-) Lucky is the spinster who does not have to deal with one!

Mog asundi.

Miguel

Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 00:11:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related
Message-ID: <108409.39863.qm at web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Dear Sandeep,
As for Cecil's humour, it depends on who is laughing. Unfortunately, it's never the person at the receiving end of it.
thank you,
selma
I think Selma probably misunderstood the context of Cecil's post, and
its true intent.
Cecil and Fred must be having a good hearty laugh over this!
Sandeep
-----------------------------------







Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one roof. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/
Mario Goveia
2008-09-29 16:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:35:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Lots of mails get into my spam folder, Mario, including yours.
Mario responds:
Good heavens! Moi??? You better call your internet provider! RIGHT NOW!
I hope you are saving and looking through your spam to catch my emails or you are at risk of losing a whole boatload of highly educational sp.., ...er, wisdom that I send your way:-))
Selma wrote:
To FN, I can only say this too will pass.
I'm only sorry that your reputation will get dragged through the mud while they are at it. It is easy to forget the 14 years of hard-work you have dedicated to this site. It's also easy to forget that you are one person who is always there to help someone out, should that person need your help.
Mario responds:
Oh, please excuse me as I wipe the tears trickling down my cheeks:-))
Selma wrote:
Soon, these men will tire of this game.
Mario responds:
You may not have noticed but I never tire when I have a valid point or in correcting falsehoods that I become aware of on Goanet.
Selma wrote:
Not that I'm trying to canonizing you or anything, but there it is, for what it's worth.
Mario responds:
Of course you are trying to canonize Fred. Who are you trying to kid? But first you need to beatify him since its probably too late to beautify him.
Finally, I have no idea ahy we are going through all this sturm and drang, since your Santa Fredericko, aka Fred Noronha, can fix all this quite easily, by being honest, unbiased and transparent in his moderation. All he has to do is to a) sign his name on his rejection notices like Viviana and Bosco do, and b) explain in brief why he is rejecting a post instead of using the demeaning, disrespectful and meaningless adjective "inappropriate".
Carvalho
2008-09-29 18:03:56 UTC
Permalink
I am researching a story on East African Goans, if anyone has a copy of the Voucher, that entitled entry into Britain in the 1960s, I would be grateful if it could be mailed to me. Also, any photographs of East African Goans in London in the 1960s would be greatly appreciated.

many thanks,
selma
Miguel Braganza
2008-09-30 13:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eugene,
?
You have surely not followed the infamous VCD thread in 2004-05, or you would not have raised this issue of "catholic-sounding name". My objection to the casteist comrade using a Catholic name is because Manohar Parrikar used it to claim that the VCD's "Scrutinizing Committee for Script" was headed by a Catholic, which Flaviano is definitely not. Flaviano is, however, proud of his "Kshatriya Chardo" caste, which a communist has no right to.
?
I have no problems with communists having catholic names. Aquino Braganza, Advisor to?Mocambique's President , Samora Macel, is my mother's first cousin. That has been discussed on this list, too.
?
I have no grouse about Frederick's "Moderating" Goajourno. That is exclusively his baby! Many of my posts just disappear. No rejection slips there. Fred is the boss. I accept that on Goajourno.
?
My grouse against Bosco's "moderating" is limited to his not being EVEN HANDED. I care a damn if half my posts are rejected ...unless someone has been permitted to abuse me and I am not given the right to a single response.
?
Bosco?does post my GT column on Goanet .... but he needs to stop pretending that he is doing ME a favour. It is the Goanet that benefits: like it or lump it.
?
Goenchim Xapotam is for those who do not want any moderation. It is like a corporate office picnic ...where the CEO can let her hair down, strip to her bikini or even swim in the nude. One is not supposed to come back to office and make snide remarks about her sagging cleavage. She is the CEO in office!?Your remarks in Goanet on JC's postings in GX are , therefore, inappropriate. ;-)
?
Mog asundi.
?
Miguel

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:03:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Eugene Correia <gene_correia at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related
??? (CORNEL??? DACOSTA)
To: goanet at lists.goanet.org
Message-ID: <909954.93315.qm at web34602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Some of my posts on GoaJourno, which Fred moderates, has never appeared and I have asked him why. Once or twice he said he did not get them. Rest of the time I have not bothered to ask him. One recent post was on Miguel's remark that Flaviano Dias, the journalist of the Goa's freedom struggle VCD, had a "Catholic-sounding" name. I questioned what is wrong with having such a name though Flaviano is a Communist, and that should Flaviano change his birth name to a name that clearly identifies as a Communist. I also said that Pio da Gama Pinto, the Kenyan martyr, was a Communist and similarly some well-known names in Goa in the past.

On the other hand, we have read that Fred does not do much of moderation on GoaNet, though I can see he handles the Goanet Reader pieces. As some have said that they would prefer more "transprency" on GoaNet, I think the level of "transperency" is quite good for now. However, I am surprised that, as Cornel has alleged, that many of his posts have been rejected. I find Cornel's posts quite sedate and not in the same class as those from Jose Colaco. I agree with Fred that the level of discussion of Goenchim Xapottam belongs to the gutter,
?
In sum up, Goanet is fairly stable. If Merwyn's suggestion of at least two members agreeing to a "controversial" post (though before Merwyn wrote I was thinking to write that the moderators get a consensus from four of them, leaving Herman out) then it should be aceptable to many of us.
Think it over, dear moderators.

Eugene Correia





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Eugene Correia
2008-09-30 19:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Dear Miguel,

If by ignorance Manohar Parrikar said Flaviano was a "Catholic" it is not Flaviano's fault. My point is why should the name matter. Hence, why should you "harp" or "carp" on it?

Eugene
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-10-01 01:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Those serious about?their complaints would make a stronger case if they?enlightened us on the several topics related to these rejected posts.? The readers can decide if these subject matters are Goa-related or Goan-centric. Right now, it appears that there is a lot of personal attacks even though efforts are made to deny this.?Instead of Fred, are his critics obnubliating? (clouding over, obfuscating - definition thanks to Victor).

As regards?Miguel's point below,?it is also?possible that some posters are suffering from "posters'? fatigue". ?Are they?resorting to increasingly virulent posts to gain some attention / notoriety?? This is not a reference to any particular post or poster. But?it is?an extension of?Miguel's valid point. Perhaps some posters?should take a rest and find some other way to keep their fingers busy?? This is what I am trying to do. ..... Really.
Regards, GL

-------------- Miguel Braganza

Bosco seems to be suffering from "Moderation fatigue" like some people in Goa are suffering form ..... Bosco can choose his own style .... or at least take a sabbatical for rest and recreation like the G.I. Joes! ;-) He can come back rejuvenated .... with a bang, if necessary!
dommartin9 at juno.com (Dom Martin )
2008-10-01 04:57:38 UTC
Permalink
In the Chinese sapience, one risks having three fingers admonishing oneself as one points a damning finger at the other. In the crab or "carp" omniscience, options are limited and rather intimidating. One can?t go after a fellow crab with one claw fully extended and the other twisted 180 degrees to safeguard the rear!

Thus, in the crab or carp attack mode, one?s rear is left exposed to baiters and alligators, all going for the sectarian legs -- one vindictive nibble at a time -- until one is legless and directionally clueless at the bottom of a self-patented fishbowl. And truly, a legless crab with its claw-rattling gene intact, is a piteously unproductive resource to oneself, one?s allies and abettors.

Solution: Practice ahimsa. It will prompt you to engage truth as your advocate and God for Judge.

Dom Martin



____________________________________________________________
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CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-09-26 15:27:19 UTC
Permalink
OPEN LETTER TO GOANET AND OTHER GOAN RELATED WEBSITES

We have had Cecil Pinto's confirmation on GX (GoenchimXapotam) that, it is Frederick Noronha who rejects large numbers of posts sent to Goanet without the slightest whiff of an explanation. This disclosure has not been rebutted by Frederick for over a fortnight and I therefore want to congratulate him on his contribution towards corruption and the absence of transparency for which India has just been rated 85th out of 180 countries on the Transparency International Survey. But what on earth am I talking about?

Anyone who googles Transparency International will discover that since 1995, there has been an official international body (executive director, Chandrashekhar Krishan) that studies corruption in differnt countries and provides such data in a league table. The latest was published on 23/9/08 and its details, especially on its methodology, are on Google.

Many will recall that since the start of 2008, there has been a huge number of posts rejected by Goanet without explanation. This prompted several posters to question what was going on rather unexpectedly. In my case, I had 25 to 30 rejections since Jan 2008 and virtually none among many hundreds, in the previous six years--and of course, I had not changed my general focus nor writing style in any way! Others had similar experiences and this led to Santosh Helekar kindly agreeing on behalf of others, to list key questions that needed to be addressed by Goanet--specifically relating to the rejection of posts without explanation. The immediate response to Santosh Helekar's very polite and precise query was the standard rejection note that his post was "inappropriate". It was of course sent by a person who chose to remain anonymous and so much in keeping with recent Goanet practice!

Unfortunately, I am only now able to respond to the totally unexpected info (at least for me) that good old Frederick Noronha lay at the heart of the rejection racket whilst taking good care not to be discovered as the villain of the piece. Coincidentally, just after Cecil's disclosure about Frederick Noronha's role vis a vis Goanet, I happened to be in Russia where among the academics I met, the central concerns were: a) the problem of growing corruption at all levels in that society including the Net, schools, colleges, universities, employment etc. The parallels with India seemed very close but the Transparency International League table now puts Russia at 147 compared to India at 85 out of 180 nations. b) the absence of a free press in Russia and the wide use of censorship.

I naturally found it difficult to believe that Frederick Noronha whom I have always held to be a decent guy was the source of so much unrest among serious and highly educated posters on Goanet and therefore wish to make the following observations, knowing full well that this post is unlikely to appear on Goanet for the simple reason that Goanet cannot handle even the mildest form of constructive criticism. It will howeve be read widely and Goanet members will have access to it irespective of every means that Goanet tries to block it:

1. If indeed, Frederick Noronha is (with others) the owner of the Goanet site, I can accept that, it is his prerogative to reject those posts he does not personally consider acceptable for his site. However, he and his fellow site owners have TOTALLY FAILED to inform us posters that this is indeed a private site in which he (Frederick Noronha and unnamed associates) can do as they please with absolutely no regard for any accountability nor any concern for the posters. Had he and his associates acted properly, there would not be a need for several posters, unhappy with Goanet post rejections, to try to endlessly extract information from the so called moderators about the discernible pattern of post rejections. This lack of transparency regarding Frederick Noronha's hidden hand on Goanet is in my view, one clear illustration of corrupt practice on Goanet. Why on earth not just come clean and say that only what he says goes on Goanet instead of
consistently pussy-footing about the 'constructive objectives' of Goanet, endlessly welcoming posts and commentary but operating very much like Lady Macbeth as an assassin from behind the scenes?

2. Another example of corrupt practice on Goanet is when consistency is absent. At least one moderator will provide a reason for the rejection of a post and indeed be named so that at least something may be done about it. Yet, virtually all others will remain anonymous (whoever they are) and will use the sham of a standardised rejection note. When the available Goanet protocol is followed up to seek an explanation for a rejection, the question simply ends up in limbo everytime. If Frederick permits this kind of corrupt practice as a site owner, questions are surely reasonable regarding his personal integrity in running an international web site with the hollow sham that "Goanet is where Goans connect" when instead hundreds of post rejections represent a major 'disconnect' without reasons.

3. Information about exactly who the moderators are is steeped in secrecy. Surely, it is incumbent on Frederick Noronha and his fellow site owners to make this information clear so as to curtail contradictory versions emanating from so called moderators of Goanet who pathetically try to remain nameless.

4. Another form of corruption is that Frederick Noronha appears to perform the role of a newspaper editor where indeed the editor traditionally has the last word (normally without explanation) regarding a letter to the editor. However, a web-site like Goanet is not run like a newspaper. It is indeed dependent on a large number of posters who sustain discourse. Unexplained rejections of posts on Goanet inevitably stifle such discourse. If such supression of posts by elimination did not take place, Frederick Noronha as one of the site owners would hardly appear at the top of the list for posts published virtually every month! Surely, his personal integrity requires some explanation re this peculiar conundrum or we should be informed that it is his personal greater glory that is important to him rather than Goanet being of purported concern about Goan matters in Goa and the Goan Diaspora. A cheeky question would be if anyone ever moderates any of the site
owners' posts, and if not, why not? And why the implicit racket of them and us on Goanet?

4. It is corrupt if it is not made clear to posters that certain ideological positions are unacceptable or indeed that his 'chieftenship' Frederick Noronha, effectively dictates what is aceeptable or not. His role smacks of authoritarian censorship evident in communist and fascist regimes. This is particularly strange for someone who is purportedly a professional journalist and purportedly a strong advocate for democracy. Further, if the intelligencia in Goa of which Goanet is clearly a part, performs as Goanet does on the inexplicable rejection of posts in significant numbers, is it any surprise that Goa is in the absolute mess that it is in with regard to corruption? Put simply, Frederick Noronha and his fellow site owners seem to be complicit in the very corruption they pretend to disown and abhor. Openess in discourse is the key towards the elimination of the hidden hand of corruption that clearly permeates Goanet through and through.

5. Non explanation for the rejection of posts allows for the corrupt practice of avoiding reading or engaging with the posts received by the moderators.

6. The paradox for me is that India does have an excellent press that in many ways emulates the best traditions of the UK press in which nothing is sacred except what affects state security. How then is it possible that Frederick Noronha runs a Goanet 'racket' in which everyting is highly secretive and totally lacking in transparency? I am sure the many Goan websites where this post of mine will be transmitted, would like to have Frederick's answer to this question out of sheer curiosity if nothing else.

Finally, for me, the annual report from Transparency International was most timely. Its appearance coincided precisely with a time when I was reflecting on corruption and lack of transparency on Goanet. I therefore have, with many regrets, to assert strongly that, Goanet is a seriously non transparent organisation with the hidden hand of corruption all over it. No other website that I am familiar with reaches the depth of corruption and non transparency as Goanet does.

This trenchant criticism is not meant to be personal but it is the only way I can focus on the serious systemic shortcomings of Goanet.
Cornel DaCosta, London, UK.
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-26 15:57:41 UTC
Permalink
It is sometimes important for pure nonsense to go through too. That's
the price we all pay for free speech. FN
Post by CORNEL DACOSTA
OPEN LETTER TO GOANET AND OTHER GOAN RELATED WEBSITES
We have had Cecil Pinto's confirmation on GX (GoenchimXapotam) that, it is
Frederick Noronha who rejects large numbers of posts sent to Goanet without
the slightest whiff of an explanation. This disclosure has not been rebutted
by Frederick for over a fortnight and I therefore want to congratulate him
on his contribution towards corruption and the absence of transparency for
which India has just been rated 85th out of 180 countries on the
Transparency International Survey. But what on earth am I talking about? ...
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
Blog: http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Tech links from South Asia: http://twitter.com/fn
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Carvalho
2008-09-26 16:47:36 UTC
Permalink
I don't know about the rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a Cecil Pinto against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha.

selma
Post by CORNEL DACOSTA
We have had Cecil Pinto's confirmation on GX
(GoenchimXapotam) that, it is Frederick Noronha who rejects
large numbers of posts sent to Goanet without the slightest
whiff of an explanation.
ralph rau
2008-09-26 17:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Cornel DaCosta seems to be distressed that his deserving and enlightening posts have not seen the light of day on Goanet.

To be honest I too have suspected Fred Noronha of being an arbitrary and high handed editor of goanet. But I have neither the time nor the inclination to offer myself for this honorary post.

Maybe the moderators need to offer the editor's post to Cornel DaCosta for "a term". I hope Cornel volunteers or else forever holds his peace.
Carvalho
2008-09-26 17:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Dear Doc,
Infra-vide or infra-red, for a long time now my email intuitively spams Cecil Pinto's posts. Sometimes when I check my spam folder, I find them wedged between some Nigerian scam and news that I've won the Canadian lottery. Artificial intelligence is very good at detecting the similarity between mails.

selma
From: J. Colaco < jc> <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related websites
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 12:09 PM
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote?
IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted
infra?
jc
2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>: I
don't know about the
rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a
Cecil Pinto
against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha
Eddie Fernandes
2008-09-26 22:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Folks,

The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no surprise but the
acrimony it has generated causes me concern. There are valid arguments on
all sides, each person giving vent to their despair of what they see as
requisites to improving the GoaNet service. There are no villains on the
stage only Heroes and Heroines!

As I see it, the discussion is basically about two ends of the spectrum. FN
and the rest of the admin team is concerned about the number of members to
join GoaNet and leave soon afterwards. He prefers the GoaNet digest version,
posts in plain text and would like the number of contributors increased.
Cornel would like to see less moderation and more messages.

There is no reason why we should have to choose between one and the other.
GoaNet had not changed much since its inception and is still essentially an
email based service for contributors. Many other discussion lists have
turned into web-based services and there are many advantages of going down
that path. Now that broadband and fast internet speeds are here, the old
arguments about cost are no longer valid. The main advantage would be to
split the discussion list into threads and give readers the option of
subscribing to all discussions or only those threads that interest them.

One of the current problems is that it is impossible to find previous posts
on a subject such as recommended restaurants, internet connections, recent
books etc. Also, some discussions on topics like sports, employment, village
nets have been moved to separate lists. There is no reason why they cannot
have separate threads in GoaNet. One keyword search, say on fishing or
restaurant* would bring together discussion on that topic.

To provide specific examples how this would work, take a look as some
Goa-related wed-based discussion lists:

1. British Expats.com.
http://britishexpats.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=6773bb87d7adda768edac61914
c9ec70&f=94
Discussion on topics such as Hiring a Car in Goa; Medical care in Goa; Where
Do You Buy Your Diamonds in Goa

2. Holiday Truths.com. http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=60
Topics such as Malaria; Restaurants; Wifi

3. India Mike. http://www.indiamike.com/india/goa-f23/ Threads such as
Sim/Phone cards; Motorbike Rental; Dentists in Goa.

If GoaNet switches to a web-based service, readers will be able to select
the threads that interest them, messages by email would be reduced,
searching for information will be efficient and posting in plain text would
not be compulsory

And as less moderation would be required, let there be Peace!

Eddie Fernandes
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-09-27 13:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Possibly in response to the rather voluminous and
largely-based-on-misconceptions-and-biases Cornel da Costa tirade
directed against Frederick Noronha (FN)

(a) FN responded on Sept 26, 2008 : As for myself, I don't see Dr
Cornel as being on track for the reasons outlined here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewDiaspora/message/5855 . If others
feel otherwise, it is an issue which can, and should, be DEBATED.

(b) On that 'NewDiaspora' site that FN directed us to, he (FN) writes
the following: Please look at the quality of the discussions on a
network built to act as an alternative here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goenchimxapotam/ To expect me to respond
to the kangaroo court of Goenchim Xapotam is asking for too much.

==

jc's response wsr to FN's 'semi-call' for this to be DEBATED:



1: I found Cornel's diatribe significantly "over the top".

2: Cornel has (perhaps conveniently, perhaps in ignorance, but
definitely inappropriately) used Cecil's tongue in cheeck post to lash
out inappropriately at Frederick (FN).

3: FN is quite within his rights to NOT answer any questions posed to
him on another discussion list i.e. including GoenchimXapotam.

4: If however, Santosh Helekar has requested information (as a member
from GoaNet) directly from GoaNet admin, this cannot (I submit) be
considered to be an action of any Kangaroo Court. If FN disagrees with
this submission and wishes others on GoaNet to see the questions
collated by Santosh Helekar, he (FN) may wish to post those questions.
GoaNet members (I believe) can decide for themselves.

5: Just for information, I did not believe that GoaNet-admin would
answer any questions and hence did not bother to submit any questions
(to Santosh Helekar) to be forwarded to GoaNet. I also have repeatedly
stated that I am very happy with the terms and conditions I face on
GoaNet.....and that if I did not like them ....I was free to take a
hike.

6: I however am concerned at what FN has written on the 'NewDiaspora' site.

Please vide (b) above. I submit (once again) that FN is factually
incorrect and definitely misleading in his posting there.

Firstly: Neither Santosh Helekar nor anybody else made any attempt to
BUILD 'Goenchimxapotam'. Santoshbab merely secured a site for those
who wanted to Rant and Rave without disturbing the good people of
GoaNet.

Secondly: 'Goenchimxapotam' was NEVER meant (nor is it ever going to
be meant) to be an ALTERNATIVE to anything, let alone to GoaNet. FN
would do well by NOT misrepresenting the idea behind
'Goenchimxapotam'. I invite him (FN) to correct this
mis-representation he has placed on that 'NewDiaspora' site.

7: We too will do well IF we try to understand WHY this present
controversy took off on on GoenchinXapotam. . IF we need a reminder,
here it is:

This ill-feeling started with the horrendous personal attack by Eugene
Correia on the FAMILY of two very decent and hard working people i.e.
Lisette and Kevin Saldanha. The situation was worsened by the
inability of the Saldanhas to respond in good time to Mr. Correia.
(There are other issues relating to Francis Rodrigues and Roland
Francis which I will not get into here.)

We should NOT delude ourselves about the Saldanha-GoaNet matter. It is
my personal belief, and you may disagree, that the Saldanhas have a
very good reason to believe that they were treated very very unfairly
by the moderators of GoaNet.

That there are zillions of messages to moderate etc can explain the
occasional 'inappropriate' message which goes through. It does NOT
answer the main (IMHO) query that was asked of GoaNet admin i.e. Are
there some individuals who are moderated and some who are not? IF so,
What are the criteria for such discrimination?

Ask yourself, FN: WHICH ENTITY comes out of this looking like the
Kangaroo Court?

A small little free-for-all, take -out-your frustrations site like
Goenchimxapotam, or GoaNet admin which refuses to be transparent with
GoaNet members and which more than occasionally allows the Moderators
to break the very GoaNet rules they say they strive to up- hold?

just my view - and FN or alia may have the last word on this. It is
highly likely that I have totally misunderstood FN's post on the
'NewDiaspora' site. If I am proven to be wrong, I will happily stand
corrected. FN is also quite within his rights to slam me - for
whatever. The questions from Santosh Helekar ....meanwhile, remain
unanswered.


jc
One who believes that we are ALL Kangaroos. It is just that we (all)
like to believe that our own courts are Giraffe courts (tall and
upstanding) and theirs...Kangaroo.

ps: For the record: Will be posting this on 'Goenchimxapotam '
CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-09-27 20:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Eddie
Your suggestions for Goanet to adjust to the diversity of interests is quite interesting and original.

However, with regard to your reply below, I definitely have no change in mind for Goanet. I am happy with it except for one simple point. Goanet protocols allow for a reason to be provided why a post is rejected as "inappropriate". This built in protocol is ignored almost always by Goanet moderation personnel. If not true, there would be some evidence that reasons are provided when they are requested. Unfortunately, they have NEVER worked for me and several others since Jan/Feb 2008.

I would rather that Goanet stated that no reasons for rejections will be provided and I could live with that--after all, Goanet is a privilege and not a right to posters. However, it is the clandestine rejection of posts, that is the source of concern for me and many others and especially, the lack of any transparency re Goanet's own protocols on rejections.

On another point, Santosh Helekar deserves a reply to his polite and reasoned petition (on behalf of several Goanet posters) about how the policy on rejected posts operates. To say that his carefully worded query is "inappropriate" hardly gives much credit to Goanet surely. It simply raises more questions than answers in the current controversy. I think if Frederick Noronha attempted to address the petition/query from Santosh it would win him plaudits currently--but of course, the petition from Santosh did not reach the Goanet membership and you would not have heard about it. It was eliminated by a nameless moderator as "inappropriate"--so hurrah for Goanet operation!

Strangely, my specific concern about Goanet's rejection of posts policy does not seem to perturb Frederick particularly in his long reply to my open letter. Above all, regardless of whether Cecil played a joke re Frederick and regardless of my taking Cecil seriously, for some time, a number of unhappy Goanetters about post rejections had alerted me that Frederick lay at the heart of actual rejections and that Bosco was just the poster boy. I had refused to accept this view until now and I think I need persuading that there is not a demon at work on Goanet re post rejections. As to exactly who it might be with so many denials in the air is pretty irrelevant. What is relevant is that there is a problem that needs sorting out in terms of Goanet needing to follow its own rules/protocols or changing them because of its inability to operationalise them satisfactorily.
Cornel
Post by Eddie Fernandes
The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no
surprise but the acrimony it has generated causes me concern. There are
valid arguments..
Santosh Helekar
2008-09-27 20:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
4: If however, Santosh Helekar has requested information
(as a member from GoaNet) directly from GoaNet admin, this cannot (I
submit) be considered to be an action of any Kangaroo Court. If FN
disagrees with this submission and wishes others on GoaNet to see the
questions collated by Santosh Helekar, he (FN) may wish to post those
questions. GoaNet members (I believe) can decide for themselves.
I posted the questions to Goanet. But somebody rejected them. The person who rejected them did not sign his name. When Viviana and Bosco reject a post they invariably sign their name. So it is unlikely that this rejection was from them. As far as GoenchimXapotam is concerned, it was created for the following purpose:

"This is a forum for all outspoken Goans and Goaphiles who want to happily engage in heated debates on an unlimited and unrestricted assortment of controversial subjects."

Nobody has his ego invested in that forum. Frederick is free to badmouth it to his heart's content. In fact, it would be courteous of him to post his rants there.

Cheers,

Santosh
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-09-27 23:17:46 UTC
Permalink
I needed some relaxation, so like many Goanetters,?I opened Goanet to see the topic d' jour; which this time was "The Open Letter ...". ?I was chuckling at?the dialog. And, ...?I fell off the chair reading the post of?Augusto Pinto (I believe Professor of English in Goa)?replying to Cornel DaCosta (I believe Professor of English in London).
?
I am unsure that even after Augusto's post?that young Goan readers understood the take home message.? Cornel's perennial problem was displayed in his latest post,?which follows his past patterns.? Likely, Cornel is not likely to change his writing style or his mindset.? So my efforts to write this post is aimed to discourage other young Goans from making the same mistakes. Augusto presented a breathtaking hilarious glimpse, which?with a satirical?pen, destroyed the conventional wisdom. The wily old fox from?Bardez (no disrespect intended) de-fanged the Londoner.
?
Writers with a Shakespearean bent and a colonial?mindset, try to present themselves as language snobs. And if one comes (or pretends to be) from Mother England, one goes a step further in presenting oneself as an aristocratic country squire.? This works well in-front?of untested readers and listeners; and those?uncertain of themselves. Yet as Augusto displayed so well, there are many who?may be?even more linguistically fertile, and can see-through the 'scholarly'? befuddlement of the presenter.? In?equally sophisticated?terms, Augusto was suggesting Cornel's long essay as, "a bunch of rants that aren't grounded in truth."
?
The thesis / thinking?often goes that people who write in a complex manner have a large vocabulary, a higher level of thinking, and?read complex material.? To some extent this is true.? Yet there is a fine line!?The writer may merely be trying to impress others by just presenting their bombastic style which displays the individual?to be?pompous and full of themselves.? They are more presenting their attitudes than communicating their thoughts and ideas (if they have any). Writers with a good grasp of the ideas and the subject-matter along with?their writing skills, will present their material in a clear, coherent and comprehensive manner. So in today's world, a long essay likely?rebuts the commonly held?thesis.? And a merely stylistic writer or speaker (with no content) sooner or later will end-up with too much egg on his face to be taken seriously. As we say in America "a good presenter must have sizzle as well as a steak".
?
In an international world, the above is not merely an essay. Below is a study of a psychologist at Princeton along with the web-link to the study http://www.collisiondetection.net/mt/archives/2006/04/study_using_big.php
Daniel Oppenheimer,?took a handful of writing samples and used a thesaurus to replace the simple words with needlessly flowery ones. His conclusions were, "As the grandiosity and complexity of the language increased, the judges estimation of the intelligence of the authors decreased. ... When an essay is filled with these sort of swapped-in synonyms, it winds up having Frankensteinian seams: You can feel its cognitive artificiality, its constipated straining to convey a higher meaning. No wonder the judges thought these essays seemed dumber."
?
Now that I have praised Augusto Pinto about this linguistic prowess, can I ask something that this supurlo Goenkar could not find his Webster's dictionary???
What is "obnubliating" (see last word below)
?
Regards, GL
?
----------- Augusto Pinto wrote:

Frederick Noronha has been subversive, misleading, misguiding, twisting,, impairing, misaddressing, abusive, deflowering, demoralising, clouding, misdirecting , weakening, get downing, debasing, counteracting, sulking, conflating, vitiating, profaning, dejecting, lead Strong, defiling, desecrating, sophisticatng, sabotaging, loading, contemning marring, taint, overturn, stretch, invalidate, deprave, adulterate, dilating, twisting urinating, undermining, bung voltage, greasing one's palms, outraging, cast downing, wooding, dispiriting, depressing, bribing, misusing, perverting, disarming, debauching, spoiling, cryptic subverting besmirching, fogging, Kuomintang, fouling, infecting, overcasting, beclouding, baffling megalomaniac, slandering, dapple, cloud, misdirect, debase, pervert, demoralize, sullen, deforming espousing, watchdog, profaning,? obscuring, misting, staining, hang over, tinting, seaming, denigrating, depriving, mottling, tarnishing,
befogging,? smirching,? spoiling, and obnubliating.
CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-09-28 10:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh
In my experience, I will agree with you that Viviana is quite happy to provide her name and reason for a post rejection. On this count I have the highest regard for her approach re Goanet and have nil disagreement with her. However, I think I'd find it easier to extract a tooth with a pair of pliers than get Bosco to provide his name and any reason for a post rejection. Moreover he has told me personally in Toronto that since April 2008, he was no longer a moderator. This assertion of his was definitely not true nor that moderation was undertaken by people as normal members of Goanet. As to Frederick for whom I definitely still hold in high esteem, perhaps you will have noted that I indicated that I was not attacking the person but the systemic mess that Goanet is in regarding hundreds of unexplained post rejects.
Cornel
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related websites
I posted the questions to Goanet. But somebody rejected
them. The person who rejected them did not sign his name.
When Viviana and Bosco reject a post they invariably sign
their name. So it is unlikely that this rejection was from
them. As far as GoenchimXapotam is concerned, it was created
"This is a forum for all outspoken Goans and Goaphiles
who want to happily engage in heated debates on an unlimited
and unrestricted assortment of controversial subjects."
Nobody has his ego invested in that forum. Frederick is
free to badmouth it to his heart's content. In fact, it
would be courteous of him to post his rants there.
Cheers,
Santosh
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro
2008-09-28 18:55:38 UTC
Permalink
My take on the word, obnubliating means clouding over, obfuscating.
Regards,
Victor


--- On Sun, 9/28/08, Frederick [FN] Noronha * ???? <fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Frederick [FN] Noronha * ???? <fredericknoronha at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related websites
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 3:32 AM

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=obnubliating
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Now that I have praised Augusto Pinto about this linguistic prowess, can I
ask something that
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
this supurlo Goenkar could not find his Webster's dictionary?
What is "obnubliating" (see last word below)
Regards, GL
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Miguel Braganza
2008-09-28 18:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Dears,

I am forwarding this post as it may have got rejected because of untrimmed referal posts. Many persons have either quit Goanet, become lurkers or reduced frequency of posting because of arbitrary rejections, as I have done. It is for the Admin Team to decide whether it wants the Goanet to survive and be relevant.


Mog asundi

Miguel
Subject: Re: Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related
To: miguelbraganza at yahoo.co.in
Cc: "Goanet" <goanet at goanet.org>
Date: Sunday, 28 September, 2008, 11:54 PM
Hi Miguelbab,
I agree with you.
The moderators on Goanet are no longer impartial and
professional.
I have therefore removed my membership from Goanet.
best regards
Dominic Fernandes
On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Miguel Braganza
Dear Goanetters,
Goanet's "Moderation" is at times
actually extremist! I have nothing against Bosco
D'Mello but "Moderator" is a term that seems incongruous when used to
describe him! "Sole Arbitrator" may be a better term to use. ;-)
Bosco can choose his own style .... or at least take a sabbatical for rest and recreation like the G.I. Joes! ;-) He can come back rejuvenated .... with a bang, if necessary!
Mog asundi
Miguel
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 10:15:38 +0000 (GMT)
From: CORNEL DACOSTA <cornel at btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other
Goan related websites
<128963.14959.qm at web86601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Hi Santosh
I will agree with you
Moreover he [Bosco]has told me personally in Toronto
that since April 2008, he was no longer a moderator.
Cornel
From: Santosh Helekar
<chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and
other Goan related
websites
I posted the questions to Goanet. But somebody
rejected them. The person who rejected them did not sign
his name.
Santosh
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Mario Goveia
2008-09-28 21:22:18 UTC
Permalink
? I don't know about the?rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a?Cecil Pinto?against that of fine man
like Frederick Noronha
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote???IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:54:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Dear Doc,
Infra-vide or infra-red, for a long time now my email intuitively spams Cecil Pinto's posts.? Sometimes when I check my spam folder, I find them wedged between some Nigerian scam and news that I've won the Canadian lottery. Artificial intelligence is very good at detecting the similarity between mails.
Mario observes:
I think Fred can clear all this up, especially if?he reads the following analysis and gets to my concluding advice to him, just before I respond to Eddie below.
In the interests of full disclosure I do not know either Fred or Cecil or Jose or Selma personally - only through Goanet.? I have an idea of what Cecil looks like and Fred as well because their pictures have been published.? Cecil is one of the best satirists we have in our Goan community and Fred is a decent journalist with a distinct political point of view which I disagree with most of the time.? I would not be able to vouch for their "fine-ness" if my life depended on it - and I am not sure how Selma?can vouch for Fred and denigrate Cecil, though I suspect it is because Cecil has chided her for her opinions more than once, but then, so have I, yet she loves me like a favorite uncle:-))? Her comments about her spam filter?insinuates that Cecil spams her with personal emails.? If he has done so I would be surprised because my experience with Cecil is that he does not either pull his punches or suffer fools gladly and doesn't care who knows it..
Please understand I am NOT calling anyone a fool - at least at this time.? So, everyone calm down.? I want to focus this important issue before it goes completely off the rails with Jose's pawky - look it up in the dictionary - questions and Selma's equally pawky answers, at least, so far.
a) Sounds like Selmabai did not read the totality of what Cecil wrote, hence the snide tap dance..
b) What difference does it make to his moderation of Goanet posts whether Fred is a fine man, or not?? As a Goanet member who has to deal with?inexplicably rejected posts from time to time, I would prefer a flawed?man or woman who is unbiased and empathetic and respectful towards posters over a fine man who is biased in favor of a political agenda, and has so little respect for posters that he is unable to explain why a post is being rejected and hides behind the meaningless term "Inappropriate".
c) I know for a fact, based on Fred's own admissions, that Fred is so far out on the political left wing that?he is teetering on the brink and I am concerned that he may fall off the planet:-))
d) Why did Fred ostentatiously resign as a Goanet moderator, then sneak back in without any notice, until Herman listed him as a Goanet administrator?
e) If Fred is?objective and above board in his moderation of Goanet posts, all he needs to do is to sign his name at the bottom like Bosco does, so that we know where to aim the brickbats, or, better yet, quit hiding behind the demeaning and disrespectful word "Inappropriate" when rejecting a post, and briefly explain why the post is being rejected.? Not only does this show respect for posters, without whom Goanet would be a cyber-cipher, but it gives the poster an opportunity to reconsider their post
It also requires the moderator to be less subjective and biased, which is why some moderators may not like to comply with my oft-repeated request.
Only Fred can sign his name on his rejection notices.? Only Fred can explain precisely why he is rejecting a post in a way the poster can understand.? If he refuses to either do these things or tell us why he will not, then we will know for sure?where Fred really stands.
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:54:12 +0100
From: "Eddie Fernandes" <eddie at fernandes.u-net.com>
The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no surprise but the acrimony it has generated causes me concern.
Mario asks:
Eddie,
Are you aware that?what Cornel and I and some others have asked for is,
a) that Goanet administration interpret what the topics will be more broadly to be Goan-centris as opposed to Goa-centric, because so many members do not live in Goa and may have some other interests from time to time.? I believe the administrators do this fairly well.? My popular seminars that correct misinformation and explain in simple terms?how the US system of government works is a great example:-))
b) that the moderators explain in brief why they are rejecting a post, instead of insulting us with the term "Inappropriate".? A simple explanation not only shows respect for us as posters, but gives us a chance to re-consider what we have written, edit it if necessary and re-submit, or withdraw the post.
Now, who can object to this?
Thus, there is no need for any acrimony if everyone approaches this with good will and respect for others.
Cornel is obviously angry and frustrated because of the biases and?objections of certain administrators who have failed to comply with our reasonable requests, mostly with b) above.? Cornel does not suffer fools gladly:-))? Cornel and I have had some knock-down drag-out verbal battles royale on some issues and are in the same foxhole on this issue and on our opposition to the abomination of the caste system.
On the other hand, I love all my neighbors as myself, suffer all fools with the patience of Job, and never get angry and frustrated with the perfect strangers who are my allies or adversaries?and other fellow-denizens on Goanet, or with Goanet administration.? I have enough trouble with those who LOVE me:-))
That does not mean I will ever stop demanding that the Goanet administration?be reasonable and run Goanet exactly how I want it run:-))
Carvalho
2008-09-28 22:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,
For reasons, I will elaborate on a little later, I wish not to get into this debate. Upfront, I want to clear something which I have neither said nor insinuated but like so many things get convoluted on Goanet.

Nowhere have I said or implied that Cecil spams me with private mails. Infact, let me state clearly that he does not. Lots of mails get into my spam folder, Mario, including yours. How my email decides which mail goes into spam and which is worth reading, I do not know. All I can say, is it saves me the bother.

Now, the reason I don't wish to get into this debate because, it has become the custom on Goanet, a sort of tradition in keeping with the lunar cycle, to lampoon someone or the other every time there is a full moon. This full-moon, the chosen sacrificial goat is of course Frederick Noronha. Maybe it's slim pickings out there.

In keeping with this custom, a group of men who seem wordily-wise will gather and create a conspiracy so great and chiseled, even Ian Fleming would have been impressed. Before we know it, not only is the efficiency of the person called into question, based on his political leanings but his moral efficacy as well. Pretty soon, we shall hear that FN has hatched a plot in collusion with the Chinese to systematically stem out right-wing ideology from Goanet.

I have no wish to join this lunar-festivity on Goanet. To FN, I can only say this too will pass. Soon, these men will tire of this game. I'm only sorry that your reputation will get dragged through the mud while they are at it. It is easy to forget the 14 years of hard-work you have dedicated to this site. It's also easy to forget that you are one person who is always there to help someone out, should that person need your help. Not that I'm trying to canonizing you or anything, but there it is, for what it's worth.

Take care,
selma
------------------------
? I don't know about the?rest of Goanetters but I
would never take the word of a?Cecil Pinto?against that of
fine man
like Frederick Noronha
Miguel Braganza
2008-09-29 11:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Therein you err,dear Selma.

Most of the guys who are the butt of Cecil's jokes enjoy them. There are exceptions like Remo Fernandes, my brother-in-law Savio ....but Frederick is not one of them!
Frederick edited the book DOMNIC'S GOA which was published by Abbe Faria Publications .... owned by Cecil Pinto! Offline, we had another raging controversy linked to the book and Goanet about .....Moderation, of course! ;-)
Like Goanet, Frederick has stopped moderating two other net groups due to tiffs with me ...and he keeps encouraging me to write more.

These men, they are peculiar creatures .... as even brand-new wives discover. ;-) Lucky is the spinster who does not have to deal with one!

Mog asundi.

Miguel

Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 00:11:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related
Message-ID: <108409.39863.qm at web33007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Dear Sandeep,
As for Cecil's humour, it depends on who is laughing. Unfortunately, it's never the person at the receiving end of it.
thank you,
selma
I think Selma probably misunderstood the context of Cecil's post, and
its true intent.
Cecil and Fred must be having a good hearty laugh over this!
Sandeep
-----------------------------------







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Mario Goveia
2008-09-29 16:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 15:35:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Lots of mails get into my spam folder, Mario, including yours.
Mario responds:
Good heavens! Moi??? You better call your internet provider! RIGHT NOW!
I hope you are saving and looking through your spam to catch my emails or you are at risk of losing a whole boatload of highly educational sp.., ...er, wisdom that I send your way:-))
Selma wrote:
To FN, I can only say this too will pass.
I'm only sorry that your reputation will get dragged through the mud while they are at it. It is easy to forget the 14 years of hard-work you have dedicated to this site. It's also easy to forget that you are one person who is always there to help someone out, should that person need your help.
Mario responds:
Oh, please excuse me as I wipe the tears trickling down my cheeks:-))
Selma wrote:
Soon, these men will tire of this game.
Mario responds:
You may not have noticed but I never tire when I have a valid point or in correcting falsehoods that I become aware of on Goanet.
Selma wrote:
Not that I'm trying to canonizing you or anything, but there it is, for what it's worth.
Mario responds:
Of course you are trying to canonize Fred. Who are you trying to kid? But first you need to beatify him since its probably too late to beautify him.
Finally, I have no idea ahy we are going through all this sturm and drang, since your Santa Fredericko, aka Fred Noronha, can fix all this quite easily, by being honest, unbiased and transparent in his moderation. All he has to do is to a) sign his name on his rejection notices like Viviana and Bosco do, and b) explain in brief why he is rejecting a post instead of using the demeaning, disrespectful and meaningless adjective "inappropriate".
Carvalho
2008-09-29 18:03:56 UTC
Permalink
I am researching a story on East African Goans, if anyone has a copy of the Voucher, that entitled entry into Britain in the 1960s, I would be grateful if it could be mailed to me. Also, any photographs of East African Goans in London in the 1960s would be greatly appreciated.

many thanks,
selma
Miguel Braganza
2008-09-30 13:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Dear Eugene,
?
You have surely not followed the infamous VCD thread in 2004-05, or you would not have raised this issue of "catholic-sounding name". My objection to the casteist comrade using a Catholic name is because Manohar Parrikar used it to claim that the VCD's "Scrutinizing Committee for Script" was headed by a Catholic, which Flaviano is definitely not. Flaviano is, however, proud of his "Kshatriya Chardo" caste, which a communist has no right to.
?
I have no problems with communists having catholic names. Aquino Braganza, Advisor to?Mocambique's President , Samora Macel, is my mother's first cousin. That has been discussed on this list, too.
?
I have no grouse about Frederick's "Moderating" Goajourno. That is exclusively his baby! Many of my posts just disappear. No rejection slips there. Fred is the boss. I accept that on Goajourno.
?
My grouse against Bosco's "moderating" is limited to his not being EVEN HANDED. I care a damn if half my posts are rejected ...unless someone has been permitted to abuse me and I am not given the right to a single response.
?
Bosco?does post my GT column on Goanet .... but he needs to stop pretending that he is doing ME a favour. It is the Goanet that benefits: like it or lump it.
?
Goenchim Xapotam is for those who do not want any moderation. It is like a corporate office picnic ...where the CEO can let her hair down, strip to her bikini or even swim in the nude. One is not supposed to come back to office and make snide remarks about her sagging cleavage. She is the CEO in office!?Your remarks in Goanet on JC's postings in GX are , therefore, inappropriate. ;-)
?
Mog asundi.
?
Miguel

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:03:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Eugene Correia <gene_correia at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related
??? (CORNEL??? DACOSTA)
To: goanet at lists.goanet.org
Message-ID: <909954.93315.qm at web34602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Some of my posts on GoaJourno, which Fred moderates, has never appeared and I have asked him why. Once or twice he said he did not get them. Rest of the time I have not bothered to ask him. One recent post was on Miguel's remark that Flaviano Dias, the journalist of the Goa's freedom struggle VCD, had a "Catholic-sounding" name. I questioned what is wrong with having such a name though Flaviano is a Communist, and that should Flaviano change his birth name to a name that clearly identifies as a Communist. I also said that Pio da Gama Pinto, the Kenyan martyr, was a Communist and similarly some well-known names in Goa in the past.

On the other hand, we have read that Fred does not do much of moderation on GoaNet, though I can see he handles the Goanet Reader pieces. As some have said that they would prefer more "transprency" on GoaNet, I think the level of "transperency" is quite good for now. However, I am surprised that, as Cornel has alleged, that many of his posts have been rejected. I find Cornel's posts quite sedate and not in the same class as those from Jose Colaco. I agree with Fred that the level of discussion of Goenchim Xapottam belongs to the gutter,
?
In sum up, Goanet is fairly stable. If Merwyn's suggestion of at least two members agreeing to a "controversial" post (though before Merwyn wrote I was thinking to write that the moderators get a consensus from four of them, leaving Herman out) then it should be aceptable to many of us.
Think it over, dear moderators.

Eugene Correia





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Eugene Correia
2008-09-30 19:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Dear Miguel,

If by ignorance Manohar Parrikar said Flaviano was a "Catholic" it is not Flaviano's fault. My point is why should the name matter. Hence, why should you "harp" or "carp" on it?

Eugene
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-10-01 01:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Those serious about?their complaints would make a stronger case if they?enlightened us on the several topics related to these rejected posts.? The readers can decide if these subject matters are Goa-related or Goan-centric. Right now, it appears that there is a lot of personal attacks even though efforts are made to deny this.?Instead of Fred, are his critics obnubliating? (clouding over, obfuscating - definition thanks to Victor).

As regards?Miguel's point below,?it is also?possible that some posters are suffering from "posters'? fatigue". ?Are they?resorting to increasingly virulent posts to gain some attention / notoriety?? This is not a reference to any particular post or poster. But?it is?an extension of?Miguel's valid point. Perhaps some posters?should take a rest and find some other way to keep their fingers busy?? This is what I am trying to do. ..... Really.
Regards, GL

-------------- Miguel Braganza

Bosco seems to be suffering from "Moderation fatigue" like some people in Goa are suffering form ..... Bosco can choose his own style .... or at least take a sabbatical for rest and recreation like the G.I. Joes! ;-) He can come back rejuvenated .... with a bang, if necessary!
dommartin9 at juno.com (Dom Martin )
2008-10-01 04:57:38 UTC
Permalink
In the Chinese sapience, one risks having three fingers admonishing oneself as one points a damning finger at the other. In the crab or "carp" omniscience, options are limited and rather intimidating. One can?t go after a fellow crab with one claw fully extended and the other twisted 180 degrees to safeguard the rear!

Thus, in the crab or carp attack mode, one?s rear is left exposed to baiters and alligators, all going for the sectarian legs -- one vindictive nibble at a time -- until one is legless and directionally clueless at the bottom of a self-patented fishbowl. And truly, a legless crab with its claw-rattling gene intact, is a piteously unproductive resource to oneself, one?s allies and abettors.

Solution: Practice ahimsa. It will prompt you to engage truth as your advocate and God for Judge.

Dom Martin



____________________________________________________________
Want a great salary and great benefits? Click here to start a criminal justice career.
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CORNEL DACOSTA
2008-09-26 15:27:19 UTC
Permalink
OPEN LETTER TO GOANET AND OTHER GOAN RELATED WEBSITES

We have had Cecil Pinto's confirmation on GX (GoenchimXapotam) that, it is Frederick Noronha who rejects large numbers of posts sent to Goanet without the slightest whiff of an explanation. This disclosure has not been rebutted by Frederick for over a fortnight and I therefore want to congratulate him on his contribution towards corruption and the absence of transparency for which India has just been rated 85th out of 180 countries on the Transparency International Survey. But what on earth am I talking about?

Anyone who googles Transparency International will discover that since 1995, there has been an official international body (executive director, Chandrashekhar Krishan) that studies corruption in differnt countries and provides such data in a league table. The latest was published on 23/9/08 and its details, especially on its methodology, are on Google.

Many will recall that since the start of 2008, there has been a huge number of posts rejected by Goanet without explanation. This prompted several posters to question what was going on rather unexpectedly. In my case, I had 25 to 30 rejections since Jan 2008 and virtually none among many hundreds, in the previous six years--and of course, I had not changed my general focus nor writing style in any way! Others had similar experiences and this led to Santosh Helekar kindly agreeing on behalf of others, to list key questions that needed to be addressed by Goanet--specifically relating to the rejection of posts without explanation. The immediate response to Santosh Helekar's very polite and precise query was the standard rejection note that his post was "inappropriate". It was of course sent by a person who chose to remain anonymous and so much in keeping with recent Goanet practice!

Unfortunately, I am only now able to respond to the totally unexpected info (at least for me) that good old Frederick Noronha lay at the heart of the rejection racket whilst taking good care not to be discovered as the villain of the piece. Coincidentally, just after Cecil's disclosure about Frederick Noronha's role vis a vis Goanet, I happened to be in Russia where among the academics I met, the central concerns were: a) the problem of growing corruption at all levels in that society including the Net, schools, colleges, universities, employment etc. The parallels with India seemed very close but the Transparency International League table now puts Russia at 147 compared to India at 85 out of 180 nations. b) the absence of a free press in Russia and the wide use of censorship.

I naturally found it difficult to believe that Frederick Noronha whom I have always held to be a decent guy was the source of so much unrest among serious and highly educated posters on Goanet and therefore wish to make the following observations, knowing full well that this post is unlikely to appear on Goanet for the simple reason that Goanet cannot handle even the mildest form of constructive criticism. It will howeve be read widely and Goanet members will have access to it irespective of every means that Goanet tries to block it:

1. If indeed, Frederick Noronha is (with others) the owner of the Goanet site, I can accept that, it is his prerogative to reject those posts he does not personally consider acceptable for his site. However, he and his fellow site owners have TOTALLY FAILED to inform us posters that this is indeed a private site in which he (Frederick Noronha and unnamed associates) can do as they please with absolutely no regard for any accountability nor any concern for the posters. Had he and his associates acted properly, there would not be a need for several posters, unhappy with Goanet post rejections, to try to endlessly extract information from the so called moderators about the discernible pattern of post rejections. This lack of transparency regarding Frederick Noronha's hidden hand on Goanet is in my view, one clear illustration of corrupt practice on Goanet. Why on earth not just come clean and say that only what he says goes on Goanet instead of
consistently pussy-footing about the 'constructive objectives' of Goanet, endlessly welcoming posts and commentary but operating very much like Lady Macbeth as an assassin from behind the scenes?

2. Another example of corrupt practice on Goanet is when consistency is absent. At least one moderator will provide a reason for the rejection of a post and indeed be named so that at least something may be done about it. Yet, virtually all others will remain anonymous (whoever they are) and will use the sham of a standardised rejection note. When the available Goanet protocol is followed up to seek an explanation for a rejection, the question simply ends up in limbo everytime. If Frederick permits this kind of corrupt practice as a site owner, questions are surely reasonable regarding his personal integrity in running an international web site with the hollow sham that "Goanet is where Goans connect" when instead hundreds of post rejections represent a major 'disconnect' without reasons.

3. Information about exactly who the moderators are is steeped in secrecy. Surely, it is incumbent on Frederick Noronha and his fellow site owners to make this information clear so as to curtail contradictory versions emanating from so called moderators of Goanet who pathetically try to remain nameless.

4. Another form of corruption is that Frederick Noronha appears to perform the role of a newspaper editor where indeed the editor traditionally has the last word (normally without explanation) regarding a letter to the editor. However, a web-site like Goanet is not run like a newspaper. It is indeed dependent on a large number of posters who sustain discourse. Unexplained rejections of posts on Goanet inevitably stifle such discourse. If such supression of posts by elimination did not take place, Frederick Noronha as one of the site owners would hardly appear at the top of the list for posts published virtually every month! Surely, his personal integrity requires some explanation re this peculiar conundrum or we should be informed that it is his personal greater glory that is important to him rather than Goanet being of purported concern about Goan matters in Goa and the Goan Diaspora. A cheeky question would be if anyone ever moderates any of the site
owners' posts, and if not, why not? And why the implicit racket of them and us on Goanet?

4. It is corrupt if it is not made clear to posters that certain ideological positions are unacceptable or indeed that his 'chieftenship' Frederick Noronha, effectively dictates what is aceeptable or not. His role smacks of authoritarian censorship evident in communist and fascist regimes. This is particularly strange for someone who is purportedly a professional journalist and purportedly a strong advocate for democracy. Further, if the intelligencia in Goa of which Goanet is clearly a part, performs as Goanet does on the inexplicable rejection of posts in significant numbers, is it any surprise that Goa is in the absolute mess that it is in with regard to corruption? Put simply, Frederick Noronha and his fellow site owners seem to be complicit in the very corruption they pretend to disown and abhor. Openess in discourse is the key towards the elimination of the hidden hand of corruption that clearly permeates Goanet through and through.

5. Non explanation for the rejection of posts allows for the corrupt practice of avoiding reading or engaging with the posts received by the moderators.

6. The paradox for me is that India does have an excellent press that in many ways emulates the best traditions of the UK press in which nothing is sacred except what affects state security. How then is it possible that Frederick Noronha runs a Goanet 'racket' in which everyting is highly secretive and totally lacking in transparency? I am sure the many Goan websites where this post of mine will be transmitted, would like to have Frederick's answer to this question out of sheer curiosity if nothing else.

Finally, for me, the annual report from Transparency International was most timely. Its appearance coincided precisely with a time when I was reflecting on corruption and lack of transparency on Goanet. I therefore have, with many regrets, to assert strongly that, Goanet is a seriously non transparent organisation with the hidden hand of corruption all over it. No other website that I am familiar with reaches the depth of corruption and non transparency as Goanet does.

This trenchant criticism is not meant to be personal but it is the only way I can focus on the serious systemic shortcomings of Goanet.
Cornel DaCosta, London, UK.
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2008-09-26 15:57:41 UTC
Permalink
It is sometimes important for pure nonsense to go through too. That's
the price we all pay for free speech. FN
Post by CORNEL DACOSTA
OPEN LETTER TO GOANET AND OTHER GOAN RELATED WEBSITES
We have had Cecil Pinto's confirmation on GX (GoenchimXapotam) that, it is
Frederick Noronha who rejects large numbers of posts sent to Goanet without
the slightest whiff of an explanation. This disclosure has not been rebutted
by Frederick for over a fortnight and I therefore want to congratulate him
on his contribution towards corruption and the absence of transparency for
which India has just been rated 85th out of 180 countries on the
Transparency International Survey. But what on earth am I talking about? ...
--
FN * Independent Journalist http://fn.goa-india.org
Blog: http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Tech links from South Asia: http://twitter.com/fn
M: +91-9822122436 P: +91-832-2409490
Carvalho
2008-09-26 16:47:36 UTC
Permalink
I don't know about the rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a Cecil Pinto against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha.

selma
Post by CORNEL DACOSTA
We have had Cecil Pinto's confirmation on GX
(GoenchimXapotam) that, it is Frederick Noronha who rejects
large numbers of posts sent to Goanet without the slightest
whiff of an explanation.
ralph rau
2008-09-26 17:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Cornel DaCosta seems to be distressed that his deserving and enlightening posts have not seen the light of day on Goanet.

To be honest I too have suspected Fred Noronha of being an arbitrary and high handed editor of goanet. But I have neither the time nor the inclination to offer myself for this honorary post.

Maybe the moderators need to offer the editor's post to Cornel DaCosta for "a term". I hope Cornel volunteers or else forever holds his peace.
Carvalho
2008-09-26 17:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Dear Doc,
Infra-vide or infra-red, for a long time now my email intuitively spams Cecil Pinto's posts. Sometimes when I check my spam folder, I find them wedged between some Nigerian scam and news that I've won the Canadian lottery. Artificial intelligence is very good at detecting the similarity between mails.

selma
From: J. Colaco < jc> <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Open letter to Goanet and other Goan related websites
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 12:09 PM
My dear Selma,
Did you read the totality of what Cecil wrote?
IF NOT .... on what basis are you making the comment quoted
infra?
jc
2008/9/26 Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>: I
don't know about the
rest of Goanetters but I would never take the word of a
Cecil Pinto
against that of fine man like Frederick Noronha
Eddie Fernandes
2008-09-26 22:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Folks,

The discussion about GoaNet moderation has come as no surprise but the
acrimony it has generated causes me concern. There are valid arguments on
all sides, each person giving vent to their despair of what they see as
requisites to improving the GoaNet service. There are no villains on the
stage only Heroes and Heroines!

As I see it, the discussion is basically about two ends of the spectrum. FN
and the rest of the admin team is concerned about the number of members to
join GoaNet and leave soon afterwards. He prefers the GoaNet digest version,
posts in plain text and would like the number of contributors increased.
Cornel would like to see less moderation and more messages.

There is no reason why we should have to choose between one and the other.
GoaNet had not changed much since its inception and is still essentially an
email based service for contributors. Many other discussion lists have
turned into web-based services and there are many advantages of going down
that path. Now that broadband and fast internet speeds are here, the old
arguments about cost are no longer valid. The main advantage would be to
split the discussion list into threads and give readers the option of
subscribing to all discussions or only those threads that interest them.

One of the current problems is that it is impossible to find previous posts
on a subject such as recommended restaurants, internet connections, recent
books etc. Also, some discussions on topics like sports, employment, village
nets have been moved to separate lists. There is no reason why they cannot
have separate threads in GoaNet. One keyword search, say on fishing or
restaurant* would bring together discussion on that topic.

To provide specific examples how this would work, take a look as some
Goa-related wed-based discussion lists:

1. British Expats.com.
http://britishexpats.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=6773bb87d7adda768edac61914
c9ec70&f=94
Discussion on topics such as Hiring a Car in Goa; Medical care in Goa; Where
Do You Buy Your Diamonds in Goa

2. Holiday Truths.com. http://www.holidaytruths.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=60
Topics such as Malaria; Restaurants; Wifi

3. India Mike. http://www.indiamike.com/india/goa-f23/ Threads such as
Sim/Phone cards; Motorbike Rental; Dentists in Goa.

If GoaNet switches to a web-based service, readers will be able to select
the threads that interest them, messages by email would be reduced,
searching for information will be efficient and posting in plain text would
not be compulsory

And as less moderation would be required, let there be Peace!

Eddie Fernandes
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