Discussion:
Getting hot under the collar
(too old to reply)
cornel
2005-02-02 16:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert,
In response to your posts, please note that Jose Colaco and I had merely
pointed out that Caste and Class are altogether different and oppositional
concepts. Further, it was implied that some Catholic Goan casteists try to
blur the difference between the two with the hope that such subterfuge will
not be noticed. Unfortunately for them, there are too many smarter Goans
(and not Johnny come lately types as you imply) who can take on any casteist
apologist today, primarily because of education, and professional and class
status in a globalised world.

On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at least,
desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So let
me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done. My grandparents and
their generations before them, intuitively knew that casteism was absolute
hogwash. Nevertheless, they were intimidated and undermined by the hegemonic
casteists in Goa. Unfortunately, my forebears did not have the education nor
skills to take on the casteists and their hegemony. However, I am ever so
glad that I can now do this, with absolute relish and confidence,
especially, in targeting contemporary Catholic Goan casteists wherever they
may appear. Now, can you possibly have a problem with my stance? Do you
want an historically oppressed people to suddenly suffer an attack of
amnesia? Not on your Nellie my friend!

Secondly, Catholic Goan casteism was taken beyond Goa, and across the waters
to places like East Africa with much enthusiasm by a thoroughly disgusting
casteist lot. Their hegemony lasted, pretty triumphantly, for them, upto
about three decades ago and still persists there but not with its former
intensity. Instead it has tried to root itself in the UK, Canada, USA and
other places in more recent times. However, it is my earnest hope that it
is today fighting a losing battle in London, Toronto, Melbourne, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, New Jersey/New York and (believe you me) even in
Oslo! And this is, particularly paradoxically, among people who should know
better through education but have been unable to discard what they absorbed,
very early on, through their mothers' milk. We know this because strident
anti-castists, like me, keep our ears to the ground and know exactly what is
going on. Yet, we are pleased when we hear former casteists accept and state
that Catholic Goan casteism is and has always been totally indefensible. All
I therefore personally seek, Gilbert, is this form of coming out, rather
than the absurdity of some die-hard fellow Goans trying to be defensive
about casteism in this day and age.

In sum, it is my firm belief that it is not by running away from evil that
we overcome it, but by going to meet it. Brown racism aka casteism among
Catholic Goans, in all its manifestations, has to be met head on in the Goan
Diaspora, and simultaneously, but bit by bit in Goa itself.
Cornel DaCosta (London)
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-05 06:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Goans and Caste - Getting Hot Under the Collar

Hi Cornell:
I have waited to the weekend to respond to your post. The weekend gives
us the writers and the readers more time to digest this topic. It may
also be a welcome break for the native Goans who must be overdosed
reading stories of the machinations of the Goa government. Thanks for
responding to my post. You have raised many points. With your
indulgence, I am replying to you point by point, which I usually dislike
doing. I am truly trying to learn from your experiences and hopefully
you can educate me/us with specifics.

Cornel:
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at
least,
desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business was a
thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So
let
me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done.

GL responds: Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last
statement. Please be sure to draw a cause and effect relation. No long
explanations needed!

Cornel:
My grandparents and their generations before them, intuitively knew that
casteism was absolute hogwash. Nevertheless, they were intimidated and
undermined by the hegemonic casteists in Goa. Unfortunately, my
forebears did not have the education nor skills to take on the casteists
and their hegemony. However, I am ever so glad that I can now do this,
with absolute relish and confidence, especially, in targeting
contemporary Catholic Goan casteists wherever they may appear. Now, can
you possibly have a problem with my stance? Do you want an historically
oppressed people to suddenly suffer an attack of amnesia? Not on your
Nellie my friend!

GL responds: You are fighting yesterday's battles today. You are more
likely engaged in verbal fencing with 'shadows of the past'. Of course,
You look mighty good!

Cornel:
Secondly, Catholic Goan casteism was taken beyond Goa, and across the
waters
to places like East Africa with much enthusiasm by a thoroughly
disgusting
casteist lot. Their hegemony lasted, pretty triumphantly, for them, upto

about three decades ago and still persists there but not with its
former
intensity. Instead it has tried to root itself in the UK, Canada, USA
and
other places in more recent times. However, it is my earnest hope that
it
is today fighting a losing battle in London, Toronto, Melbourne, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, New Jersey/New York and (believe you me) even in

Oslo!

GL responds: I will tend to agree with you on this; given the many
'social get-together' divisions in the Goan community seen in large
Diaspora. But still this is not a cause and effect relation. Goans in
Diaspora shun people from their own caste. They seek instead individuals
with common legacy, which may be, they are sure of their caste. That is
why I asked you the question how do you target the population group that
you desire to change? Do you single out all folks from East Africa,
which you identified in your first line of the above paragraph and you
growing up there originally are familiar with them? Is this post copied
to all the East African Goan mailing lists? Or are you preaching to the
choir?

Cornel:
And this is, particularly paradoxically, among people who should know
better through education but have been unable to discard what they
absorbed,
very early on, through their mothers' milk. We know this because
strident
anti-casteists, like me, keep our ears to the ground and know exactly
what is going on.

GL responds: I am sure your 'ears are to the ground' in many places. If
your sources are from Goanet, the same posts that I read, then you are
'hearing some blowing in the wind'.:=)) Because all I read on two major
mailing lists are theories (about caste discrimination) with no specific
examples. Unless of course you are implying that the rude posts that I
receive, sometimes from my own village folks, are casteist in nature and
I am just 'not astute enough to get it'.:=)) Cheeze I thought they were
....:=))

Cornel:
Yet, we are pleased when we hear former casteists accept and state
that Catholic Goan casteism is and has always been totally indefensible.


GL responds: Who are these former casteists? I did not see much support
from you and others (including JC) when I condemned the use of Alcunha
(remember the thread on Professora, Professorachem ghor, cheddo etc.)
where today's Johnny-come-lately(s) rest on the laurels of their
ancestors. Thus in the process some of them do a disservice to
themselves (by being lazy) and to other Goans who were not born with 'a
silver spoon in their mouth'. Yes... Yes... I know you were very
busy...! :=)) Most of the Brahmins were not born with a silver spoon in
their mouth. So I would not accuse the opposition on that thread as
being 'Brown racism aka casteism'. I would merely term them defending a
practice which was a part of Goan feudal society, and their own relic,
which today we Goans can do without. That was my 'take-home message' and
hopefully well received.

Cornel:
All I therefore personally seek, Gilbert, is this form of coming out,
rather
than the absurdity of some die-hard fellow Goans trying to be defensive
about casteism in this day and age.

GL responds: Again please show me practice of specific casteism in THIS
DAY AND AGE. I know I 'can be thick' on observing this aspect of Goan
culture.

Cornel:
In sum, it is my firm belief that it is not by running away from evil
that
we overcome it, but by going to meet it. Brown racism aka casteism among

Catholic Goans, in all its manifestations, has to be met head on in the
Goan
Diaspora, and simultaneously, but bit by bit in Goa itself.

GL responds: All power to you my friend. Please provide us examples in
action like a lower-caste Goan get-together at the Royal Dorchester in
London. In my mind you fight caste by lifting the lower caste up ... and
... real up!

As you live in London, perhaps you have changed things. But if not, why
don't you have a 'reception group' of Goans to welcome and help new Goan
immigrants to London and UK. The migrants are 'outsiders' on whose
behalf you are waging a worthy battle. In my three years in London in
the mid '70s, I was invited to one GOA function even though I had met a
few Goans in that city. I did not know GOA (London) existed.

So as a prominent Goan in London and UK you could do a lot to help
eradicate brown-racism by example rather than words. Again you may be
doing it. So why don't you write posts on how established-Goans in
London help Goan new-arrivals to the UK, other lower caste and lower
class Goan ganv-bhavs and ganv-bhoinis get on their feet? (like the
Sikhs, Patels, Parsees and Jews). And this could be repeated in all Goan
Diasporas that do not have this support. After-all you don't want Goans,
thirty years from now, writing about Goans in London etc., in the 21st
Century (a.k.a. you and me) in effect practiced brown-racism. Don't you
think that would be a worthwhile effort to address in practice on 'caste
or class among Goans'? It's not likely that Goans who NEED PRACTICAL
HELP TODAY will be consoled and satisfied with 'getting hot under the
collar' and excuse you and me for our yeomen work in our 'academic ivory
towers'. Regards.
Mario Goveia
2005-02-05 18:15:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by cornel
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to
suggest, or at least, desperately want to believe,
that all this evil caste business was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is
limited to a few. So let me provide you a brief
response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always
done.
Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last
statement. Please be sure to draw a cause and effect
relation. No long explanations needed!

Mario adds his 2 cents:
My personal experience is that many Catholic Goans
still have a strong preference for their "own caste"
when it comes to their children's marriage partners,
to the extent that there are still children who go
along with this stuff in India or in the diaspora.

We have actually gotten calls from Catholic Goans who
live in India, Canada, the UK and the US who will call
and ask us about a certain young man or woman we may
know and the caste issue has often come up, sometimes
overtly and sometime in subtle ways like wanting to
know which village in Goa the family is from. They
never call back after my 15 minute tirade asking them
to first make up their minds whether they are
Catholics or not before asking us such questions.

I personally know a family in India where one son
married a very accomplished girl from another caste,
and she is not welcome in the parent's house, even
after over 5 years of marriage. Another son has
married within their caste and is welcome. These
hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's wife, WHO
IS EUROPEAN. They made the mistake of calling me to
inquire about someone for another one of their
children, and needless to say, after I was done with
them, we are no longer on speaking terms.

I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage
where the issue of caste is relevent among Catholic
Goans.
jose colaco
2005-02-05 20:36:13 UTC
Permalink
From: Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>

<I personally know a family in India where one son married a very
accomplished girl from another caste, and she is not welcome in the parent's
house, even after over 5 years of marriage.>

< Another son has married within their caste and is welcome.>

< These hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's wife, WHO IS EUROPEAN.>

<I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage where the issue of
caste is relevent among Catholic Goans.>





I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes one of the "upper caste" in
the Varna (colour) system.

It is not restricted to Catholic Goans ....even though the term "Catholic
caste" is an oxymoron.

Almost like a Compassionate Rightie or Leftie ! (what sez Mario ?)


There is a strong belief based on DNA studies that the Chitpawan Brahmins
like Tilak, Damle et al are Jews from EUROPE. ( CD of studies available
online from Dr. Jagannath Dixit )

Besides, not much is known of the Chitpawans until 500 years ago.

...... another Parshuram Arrow story (perhaps)

I am of the opinion that this thing called "caste" is NOT as important
during marriage among educated Catholic Goans in Goa & the rest of India
....as it is among Catholic Goans who live abroad.

It is present ....but not as much when compared to NRGs

It also is there within the Catholic Church! of that - I am quite sure. In
the 2002 synod, it was recommended that each parish should have ONE
confraria with ONE dress code. Doubt that has come into uniform effect yet.

I suppose this separation plays right into the Swadeshi project - especially
as it was never ever abolished within the Church.


jc

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cornel
2005-02-05 21:15:11 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert,

I will respond to you. Regret I have to be away for ten days from tonight.

Cornel
goanet-admin
2005-02-06 07:06:40 UTC
Permalink
Jose Colaco <colaco_2 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Mario wrote:
These hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's
wife, WHO IS EUROPEAN.>
Post by jose colaco
<I am not aware of any circumstance other than
marriage where the issue of caste is relevent among
Catholic Goans.>
Post by jose colaco
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes
one of the "upper caste" in the Varna (colour) system.
Post by jose colaco
It is not restricted to Catholic Goans ....even
though the term "Catholic caste" is an oxymoron.
Almost like a Compassionate Rightie or Leftie !
(what sez Mario ?)
Mario sez:
Jose, I can tell you that accepting an European D-I-L
and rejecting an Indian D-I-L, regardless of their
relative complexions, does not dilute or enhance the
hypocrisy of the family I mentioned. They are still
world-class hypocrites.

Second, there is a good reason why I did not mention
non-Catholic Goans, and that is that the section of
the discussion between Cornel and Gilbert in which I
intervened was restricted to Catholic Goans. In my
opinion, mentioning non-Catholic Goans did not fir in
and would have only complicated the discussion. Yes,
"Catholic caste" is an oxymoron at the theoretical
level but not in the real world where it is very much
a fact of life.
Post by jose colaco
I am of the opinion that this thing called "caste"
is NOT as important during marriage among educated
Catholic Goans in Goa & the rest of India ....as it is
among Catholic Goans who live abroad.
Post by jose colaco
It is present ....but not as much when compared to
NRGs.
Mario replies:
I understand that that is your opinion. However,
whether your opinion fits the facts or not is what
this dialog is all about. In my opinion, based on the
limited sample of calls I have received, it is just as
prevalent among Goans in Goa as with Goans in India
but outside Goa, and as with NRGs, whether educated or
not.
Jose says:
It also is there within the Catholic Church! of that
- I am quite sure. In the 2002 synod, it was
recommended that each parish should have ONE
confraria with ONE dress code. Doubt that has come
into uniform effect yet.
Post by jose colaco
I suppose this separation plays right into the
Swadeshi project - especially as it was never ever
abolished within the Church.

Mario replies:
I have no idea whether the official "Catholic Church"
in Goa has anything to do with caste, and I don't see
how any Catholic Church can support the apartheit that
the caste system is similar to, and still claim to be
Catholic.

However, I am aware that in Kerala there are separate
Catholic Churches and parishes for Dalits, and Dalits
do not attend the "upper caste" Catholic Churches,
which is an abominable and despicable situation in my
opinion.
goanet-admin
2005-02-06 22:35:20 UTC
Permalink
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]RE: Goans and Caste
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes
one of the "upper caste" in the Varna (colour) system.
Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would
have lived a charmed life istead of the piteously precarious
lot that, with the exception of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been
has predominatly dogged them.

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goanet-admin
2005-02-07 04:20:52 UTC
Permalink
<Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would have lived a
charmed life istead of the piteously precarious lot that, with the exception
of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly dogged them.>




Of course with this new "system" that Goanet admin has instituted - I don't
know to whom I am responding.

All power and glory to their brilliance.


Anyway ......

by 'anglos' - I trust you mean Anglo-Indians....right? ...because true
Anglos are Full Brits.

No idea how many 'mestizos' and 'anglo-indians' you have met or known.

I trust that you know the difference between FULL WHITE and NOT FULL WHITE

As in the US and in the UK ..... like among Indian Brahmins ......pure is
pure!

Also try ascertain WHO contribute to the non-WHITE component in
Anglo-Indians and Mestizos

NOT Brahmins or Kshatriyas.

hey......even if a blue blooded "Brahmin" were to have a child with a
"Sudra" ...... and that child was WHITE as Afghan Snow ..... that child was
a "Sudra" ! (Please read Manu)

Now..... to WHOM did I reply?

sincerely

jose colaco
zoncar de Carabolim

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goanet-admin
2005-02-07 22:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mario:
Thanks for reading my post on this thread and responding to it. From
your past posts and views on this subject, you are far from being an
apologist about caste attitudes among Goans. In fact, one could describe
you as very hostile to anyone who may demonstrate an inclination to
caste considerations as your post below and others suggest.

Yet, in your response and other posts, you have never claimed the
existence of casteism in the Goa's Catholic Church in the period you
grew up (and since) in Goa and Bombay. I hope Cornell who spent much of
his life in East Africa and England will learn from you (and me) -
individuals who were a lot closer to round zero. Now if some native
Goans can provide statistics and factual patterns of behavior (not
isolated instances, personal grudges or preconceptions), that may bring
all of us up to speed on a subject that so far has raised more heat than
light.

But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary. Perhaps Goa Sudharop can help channel the
tax-free contribution to this worthwhile cause. I wonder if George Pinto
of California (who has also expressed an opinion on this subject) is
reading this.

Now to the issue of individuals inquiring about caste at the time of
marriage. I would submit to you that THIS DOES OCCUR. Now if that is the
only factor that people (parents) take into consideration, then a
prospective recipient should be happy that they did not receive a soirik
from this family. Because this is likely a very narrow-minded family and
the new in-law especially from Canada would be better-off not having
anything to do with these types.

On the other hand, inquiries about caste can also one of very many many
questions one asks about an individual. I would call it 'due
diligence'. Should not one inquire about education, job, place of
residence, school, college, personal habits, family background etc. and
may even be good looks. Someone who does not have an attribute may
complain equally loud about any of these inquiries. Now no one is
perfect. All individuals are a balance. And to feel diffident for lack
of an attribute is really a sign of (lack of) self-confidence and
self-worth.

In fact at an interview for a new job, one inquires about all and sundry
- pleasant and unpleasant things about the employer and employee. Would
not your curiosity interest you about the ethnic background of your
employers, employees, co-workers or clients? Is there something wrong
with that? Would you take or turn down the job just on that single
factor - NO soiree! If you do, then it will be your loss.

Finally a single guy explained why he was not married.
Questioner: Why you are not married?
He said: I am waiting for the prefect girl.
Questioner: So did you not find any?
He said: Yes I did find a few.
Questioner: So what happened?
He said: They wanted the perfect guy.
Regards Gilbert

Mario adds his 2 cents:
My personal experience is that many Catholic Goans still have a strong
preference for their "own caste" when it comes to their children's
marriage partners, to the extent that there are still children who go
along with this stuff in India or in the Diaspora.

I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage where the issue
of caste is relevant among Catholic Goans.

Gilbert:
Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last statement. Please be
sure to draw a cause and effect relation. No long explanations needed!

Cornel:
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at
least, desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business
was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So
let me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic
Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done.
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 02:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Something strange is happening on Goanet recently.
All the posts are being identified as being from
goanet-admin at goanet.org, and not from the poster. For
example, the attached post is a comment in response to
something that Dr. Jose Colaco posted, but we can't
tell who it's from????
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]RE: Goans and Caste
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically
becomes one of the "upper caste" in the Varna
(colour) system.
Unidentified Poster??? comments
Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and
'anglos' would have lived a charmed life istead of
the piteously precarious lot that, with the exception
of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly
dogged them.
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goanet-admin
2005-02-08 02:18:20 UTC
Permalink
A few questions:

1. How far is Porto from Lisbon by car?
2. Is there a direct train from Lisbon airport to central Porto?
3. Any Goan organization in Porto?
4. Any Goan function in either Lisbon or Porto from Mar 26 - Apr 2?

Please reply to georgejpinto at yahoo.com

Thanks,
George Pinto
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
In fact, one could describe you as very hostile to
anyone who may demonstrate an inclination to caste
considerations as your post below and others suggest.
Mario clarifies:
Gilbert, I am not hostile to "anyone" personally, but
militantly and fundamentally opposed to any concept
that forms opinions and takes actions for or against
someone based on factors which they had nothing to do
with, rather than on their personal achievements and
the content of their character. Thus I oppose the
caste system, period, and even more so among
Catholics, where it goes against every tenet of
Christianity. I have seen far too many very good
people and families devastated by such discriminatory
thinking regardless of how the perpetrators choose to
sugar-coat it.
Post by goanet-admin
Yet, in your response and other posts, you have
never claimed the existence of casteism in the Goa's
Catholic Church in the period you grew up (and since)
in Goa and Bombay. I hope Cornell who spent much of
his life in East Africa and England will learn from
you (and me) - individuals who were a lot closer to
round zero. Now if some native Goans can provide
statistics and factual patterns of behavior (not
isolated instances, personal grudges or pre-
conceptions), that may bring all of us up to speed on
a subject that so far has raised more heat than
light.
Mario clarifies:
I grew up in Jabalpur where there were few Goans and
so Goan Catholic casteism was rarely talked about. I
have never lived in Goa and have never discussed
casteism with any Catholic priest anywhere in the
context of the Catholic Church. I took it for granted
that they would be against the caste system. The term
"Catholic caste" is an oxymoron, as someone said
recently, and I would denounce any Catholic priest who
did not denounce the continuing practice of casteism
among Catholics.

I categorically denounce the necessity and reality of
Dalit parishes in Kerala because Dalits are not
welcome in "upper-caste" Catholic parishes, and I
would do the same with regard to any parish in Goa
that discrimintated against anyone based on their
"caste" or color or any other basis other than their
personal behavior.

I don't see how statistics would affect any of this.
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 07:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Solly, ol' boy, it was I .....chuk zalli, matar? zatam re saiba... senility,
decreptitude creeps in; foward-leaping G-net leaps away, leaving the age
challenged to challenge age...

Alfred Methuselah
From: "jose colaco" <colaco_2 at hotmail.com>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: RE: Goans and Caste again
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 00:35:51 +0000
<Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would have lived a
charmed life istead of the piteously precarious lot that, with the
exception of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly dogged them.
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 18:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Just put a caste to the name of the Ministers in the newly sworn-in Rane
cabinet, then look for repeats of the caste that have been left out of [ and
are swearing at] the cabinet. Ditto for the Parrikar cabinets earlier. 'Cast
your vote and vote your caste' holds good in the Assembly as in the polling
booth.
..........................................
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Goans and Caste - Getting Hot Under the Collar
I have waited to the weekend to respond to your post. The weekend gives
us the writers and the readers more time to digest this topic. It may
also be a welcome break for the native Goans who must be overdosed
reading stories of the machinations of the Goa government. Thanks for
responding to my post. You have raised many points. With your
indulgence, I am replying to you point by point, which I usually dislike
doing. I am truly trying to learn from your experiences and hopefully
you can educate me/us with specifics.
I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at least, desperately want
to believe, that all this evil caste business was a
thing of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few.
So let
me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done.
.................................................................
Imagine an arranged marriage today in which a Shudra gets married to a
Brahmin. Irrespective of the caste, the neighbours and relatives will end
up saying , "Ani Konnuch dislo/mevonk na teka re?" after enjoying a hearty
buffet at the wedding reception....or even singing "Tambde Rosa" at the Xim.

Viva Goa.
Miguel
goanet-admin
2005-02-09 02:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by goanet-admin
But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary.
The issue is not a lack of funding. The Goa Church is one of Goa's richest institutions
(approximately 165 parishes, schools, etc.). It has the money to fund seminarians. The issue is
whether there is a will among church authorities and the laity to end the caste system practiced
by some Goan Catholics.

On a somewhat related issue, there is no lack of vocations/priests in India, over 1,000 are
ordained every year and Indian priests continue to be "exported" to places like the USA, Canada,
and some parts of Europe where there is a shortage. The Asian, African, Latin American Catholic
markets are the fastest growing in the world. However, they have little to show for it at the
Vatican which is run mostly by Europeans - brown and black people doing the hard work while the
honors are reserved for Europeans. Most unfortunate.

Regards,
George Pinto
goanet-admin
2005-02-09 04:21:03 UTC
Permalink
In response to Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>

< But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary>

George Pinto wrote

<The issue is not a lack of funding... The issue is whether there is a will
among church authorities and the laity to end the caste system practiced by
some Goan Catholics>

Well said George.

And Catholics who normally make a big spiel about "cafeteria catholicism"
may wish to understand very clearly that:

1. The Caste System is contrary to Christ-ianity
2. That the Death Penalty is contrary to the Commandment which says - Thou
Shalt NOT kill .

regards

jose colaco
Carambolim-Velim
goanet-admin
2005-02-10 06:40:46 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
For the benefit of Diaspora Goans and those not familiar with the caste
identification, can you please oblige by putting a caste to the names of
the Ministers in the two govt.? Thus we will know the caste groupings in
the government and how well it reflects the population it represents and
serves.
Thanks.

Miguel:

Just put a caste to the name of the Ministers in the newly sworn-in Rane
cabinet, then look for repeats of the caste that have been left out of
[and are swearing at] the cabinet. Ditto for the Parrikar cabinets
earlier. 'Cast your vote and vote your caste' holds good in the Assembly
as in the polling booth.
goanet-admin
2005-02-11 05:02:32 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
No more excuses!
Raise the money!
Offer it DIRECTLY TO THE LOWER CASTE CATHOLIC Goans who desire to join
the seminary but cannot afford it.
Let's see if there are any Givers and Takers.
It can't get any simpler.
Regards indifference of Europeans to Goan/Asian saints. Please tell us:
How the Goan community, under your leadership, celebrated the Feast of
Blessed Joseph in California? Did not see any posts before or after the
fest.
Thanks, Regards.

Jose Colaco:
Well said George. And Catholics who normally make a big spiel about
"cafeteria Catholicism" may wish to understand very clearly that:

1. The Caste System is contrary to Christianity
2. That the Death Penalty is contrary to the Commandment which says -
Thou
Shalt NOT kill.

George Pinto:
The issue is not a lack of funding... The issue is whether there is a
will
among church authorities and the laity to end the caste system practiced
by
some Goan Catholics>

Gilbert Lawrence:
But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary>
George Pinto
2005-02-14 04:45:55 UTC
Permalink
This is a response to Gilbert's two recent emails on caste and Goans. I had chosen to ignore the
first one, but when fiction is repeated, it deserves a response at least to get some basic facts
right.........

Either Gilbert does not think through the issues or ignores the facts or is in haste or his logic
does not serve him well. His respones have been pretty lame of late and does not do credit to his
ability.

1. I would like to know what HE did to celebrate the Blessed Vaz feast (it is important not to
throw stones at others from a glass house). Yes, it was celebrated individually by supporters
here (in fact there is a long history of such activity which I do not care to repeat).
Additionally, everytime something is done it does not need to be reported in Goan cyberspace and
splashed several times across the lists (this is not World Goa Day). As far as the world-wide
Goan community and Goan associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to the
Euro-centric, and servient role to colonial history and European saints. If they cannot step out
from their second-class past, don't ask me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my
time to help them. If they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine. Additionally, I
am not President of the Goan Association (I was in 1990-2001). I am active in Goa Sudharop but
hardly consider my myself a leader in the Goan community, others are doing a better job.
Additionally, Goa Sudharop by its mission is non-religious and non-political (hence you won't see
religious or politcal events scheduled and announced).

2. As far as caste goes, Gilbert is again confused (more than his normal confusion). The issue
once again is not a lack of funds or lack of Dalit seminarians or whatever bogus issue Gilbert
introduces, but the discrimatory practice of the caste system practiced by some in the Catholic
church heirarchy and by some laity. He suggested earlier it does not exist because he has not
experienced it. This is the same "head in sand" approach as the sex abuse issue by priests. The
caste system has to be solved collectively. I have done my bit by pointing it out and I am not
willing to do more at this point. It is MY CHOICE how I spend my time and money and sometimes some
good causes do not get the attention they deserve. Perhaps Gilbert can pick up the slack.

Please don't waste my time having to respond to fairytale emails. I learnt from my experience in
2000 (specifically with respect to the Blessed Vaz issue) that most cybergoans will waste time
emailing, rather than actually doing something. I am not willing to go down that path again.

The problem with Gilbert and others like him who are defensive about the Church, is they have
never had an activist bent, never been in a protest or demonstration or fought for justice. They
do not identify or understand some of the injustices that do exist in the Catholic Church or in
society at large. It makes them uncomfortable when others point it out. They prefer to sweep it
under the carpet or deny it exists. Their response is to hide under the Church skirts and become
defensive.

Please take time to understand without wasting my time. I do not see my role here as educative.

Regards,
George
Very good questions. Perhaps they need to be answered by those who make
or allege these situations. I was merely suggesting ways these folks
could solve their concerns themselves - Not relying on someone else to
address their distress. Aum appurbaen rautam to hear about the
celebrations of Goans on Jan 16, for the feast of Blessed Joseph Vaz
across the Goan Diaspora.
What are you suggesting my friend? That there are "lower caste" Catholic
Goans who desire to join the seminary but do not because they cannot
afford it? Is that what you are saying?
May I ask .... on what basis .....you maketh that statement? Is there a
fee for joining the seminary in Goa? Something new happened while I was
out to dinner?
<No more excuses! Raise the money!
Offer it DIRECTLY TO THE LOWER CASTE CATHOLIC Goans who desire to join
the seminary but cannot afford it.
Let's see if there are any Givers and Takers.
It can't get any simpler.>
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-15 23:55:54 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
George is welcome to ignore this post! However other cyberGoans should
not be denied the analysis. To begin with, let me apologize for his
outburst. I also apologize for the logic escaping GP about Blessed
Joseph Vaz - the Patron Saint of Goa. People do get 'hot under the
collar' when their long essays are shown for what they are, and perhaps
their ego's deflated.

The reason why I brought up the celebration of Blessed Joseph Vaz feast
in the Goan Diasporas is because there are Goans (no names please) that
claim (off all things) white racial discrimination in not celebrating
Goan saints by the supposedly 'white Catholic Church'. So I see the N.
California Goans did not have a celebration for their own patron Goan
saint. I am amused by "celebrated individually by his supporters.":=))
So, now is it that 'White Catholics' discriminate and 'Brown Catholics'
show prejudice too? How about Catholics are not being too religious?
:=)) In fact it is my understanding that the N. California Goans did not
even jointly celebrate the feast of SFX last year on / around December
3. Perhaps the SFX feast was "celebrated individually by his
supporters."

I didn't see this 'individual celebration' among Goans for Christmas and
New Year which is the biggest Western influence (Emperor Constantine's
carry-over of the pagan mid-winter festivity) in the world. In fact the
Goan cruise-gala in San Francisco bay (with multiple postings on cyber
Goa) or similar activity could have been done two weeks later to honor
the Goan Patron Saint.

So Senhor / Shri Pinto and others, please practice what you preach. Of
course it is difficult to promote upholding Goan cultural practices when
Goan cultural symbols are being repeatedly crushed. I hope one finds
logic in this statement and this should not be too difficult to
understand. :=)) On a note of total agreement with GP, Goan culture in
the Diaspora needs urgent attention.

Be my guest in Utica, NY, and see the Italians (from the East Coast of
USA and Canada) celebrate the feast of Saints Cosmos and Damian with
street procession of statues, band, rosary and hymns ani magir mass in
Italian. This is after coming to this country more than 100 years ago.
Regards, GL, Utica, NY.

George Pinto: (N. California)
Yes, it was celebrated individually by supporters here (in fact there is
a long history of such activity which I do not care to repeat).
Additionally, every time something is done it does not need to be
reported in Goan cyberspace and splashed several times across the lists
(this is not World Goa Day). As far as the world-wide Goan community
and Goan associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to
the Euro-centric, and servient role to colonial history and European
saints. If they cannot step out from their second-class past, don't ask
me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my time to help
them. If they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine.
George Pinto
2005-02-16 04:05:21 UTC
Permalink
I think Gilbert is blinded by computer glare as he reads the posts. There is no other explanation
for his inane responses, without basic logic. See his responses to my original post.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The reason why I brought up the celebration of Blessed Joseph Vaz feast
in the Goan Diasporas is because there are Goans (no names please) that
claim (off all things) white racial discrimination in not celebrating
Goan saints by the supposedly 'white Catholic Church'.
This is what I (George) originally wrote "As far as the world-wide Goan community and Goan
associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to the Euro-centric, and servient
role to colonial history and European saints. If they cannot step out from their second-class
past, don't ask me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my time to help them. If
they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine." It is clear my point is Goans
themselves have ignored to celebrate Blessed Vaz on a large scale - of course, the Vatican has
helped. The blame for the lack of Blessed Vaz support lies with Goan Catholics, including the Goan
Catholic church, and the Vatican shares some of the blame too. Don't blame the Joseph Naik Vaz
Institute which are one of the few who ACTUALLY did something. I also think Gilbert is confusing
(nothing new!) the Joseph Naik Vaz Institute with Goa Sudharop, two separate organizations. Also
Gilbert has again not mentioned how HE celebrated the Blessed Vaz feast or how NY Goans celebrated
it. Not that Gilbert is responsible for NY Goans and what they do any more than I am responsible
for Northern California Goans and what they do. But that is his silly logic.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Gilbert wrote....
In fact the Goan cruise-gala in San Francisco bay (with multiple postings on cyber
Goa) or similar activity could have been done two weeks later to honor
the Goan Patron Saint.
The above is borderline idiocy. First of all, Goa Sudharop is a non-profit and as I mentioned in
my prior post, cannot engage in religious or political activities (both its mission and IRS
regulations do not permit it). Goa Sudharop CANNOT celebrate a religious feast like Blessed Vaz.
Goa Sudharop and the Joseph Naik Vaz Institute are two separate organizations. Comprehende
Gilbert? For Gilbert's benefit, one more time - Goa Sudharop CANNOT celebrate a religious feast
like Blessed Vaz. Goa Sudharop and the Joseph Naik Vaz Institute are two separate organizations.
Comprehende Gilbert?

Gilbert, please read the posts several times and take time to understand. It might help. A famous
Goan world-class oncologist should not write without logic, facts, or sense and waste people's
time.

So Gilbert, what did YOU do to celebrate the Blessed Vaz feast and promote his cause?

Regards,
George
Mario Goveia
2005-02-21 20:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Being on vacation and blessedly losing the thread of
this discussion, I am trying to figure out how a
debate about the diabolical caste system and the
obvious contradiction between this ancient social
stratification of Hindu society and the teachings of
Christ, who preached that all human beings were equal
in the eyes of God, has descended into a stone
throwing contest between two blue states in the US
trying to claim some sort of moral superiority based
on celebrating the feasts of selected saints. SAINTS,
for crying out loud!!!

Do we have the bull by the tail here, folks? After
all, aren't saints simply exemplary people whose lives
and works have been formally recognized by the Church?
No more, no less?

Are we C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N-S or S-A-I-N-T-I-A-N-S? Is
it even important or logical to go overboard to
celebrate ANY saint? Remember and honor them? Yes.
Learn from them? Certainly. Ask them to intercede on
our behalf because they are already in heaven? Can't
hurt. But to go any further? Think about it.
Post by George Pinto
I think Gilbert is blinded by computer glare as he
reads the posts. There is no other explanation
for his inane responses, without basic logic. See
his responses to my original post.
--- Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The reason why I brought up the celebration of
Blessed Joseph Vaz feast
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
in the Goan Diasporas is because there are Goans
(no names please) that
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
claim (off all things) white racial discrimination
in not celebrating
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Goan saints by the supposedly 'white Catholic
Church'.
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-22 03:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Mario:
After you figure this out please let me know. They tell me that I don't
have any logic on his issue. Pl see if you can make any sense of the
nonsense.

Wake me up when you have the answer.:=))

To give you a hint, it's seeing all problems through 'the same rose
colored glass' and then highjack the thread with your favorite theme.
Regards, GL

Mario Goveia:
I am trying to figure out how a debate about the diabolical caste system
and the obvious contradiction between this ancient social stratification
of Hindu society and the teachings of Christ, who preached that all
human beings were equal in the eyes of God, has descended into a stone
throwing contest between two blue states in the US trying to claim some
sort of moral superiority based on celebrating the feasts of selected
saints. SAINTS, for crying out loud!!!
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-23 02:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,
So very nice to hear from you.
By all means you can take full credit for that compliment.
You were the only one who stood there and carried on a civil and
educational (for both of us and others) dialogue on Goa's Inquisition
from which we all learnt.
You did not feel defensive and ....
There was nothing defensive for either of us to be anxious about.

I wish all our dialogues especially the one we are having on Goans and
caste could be so enlightening.
It can only be so if there are facts - that are either there or not
there;
And we then know definitely what occurs or did not occur and not some
else's outlook or (mis) representation of the events.

In fact today I was reading about Goa. I came across a reference of how
the same dish in Goa is cooked differently and taste differently in
Goa's different castes. Can you and / or someone enlighten me if this is
true?
I am always willing to learn - the facts. Growing up in Bombay, I know
for a fact that 'the same dish' is fixed differently and taste
differently when fixed by a Goan compared to a Mangalorean or East
Indian. I will not go into which tastes better, because that would not
be a fact. :=)):=))

Regards, GL


Santosh Helekar
This is becoming like the thread about the Inquisition in Goa.
Everybody and his mother-in-law had strong views on the Inquisition.
When we ask for facts and statistics, it was DE NADA - SILENCE,
except for Dr. Santosh Helekar.
Santosh:
Gilbert has been giving me a lot of good publicity lately. I want to
thank him for this yet another good deed.
Gilbert, Can I publicise your above compliment as your acknowledgement
of my good deed? I don't have very many good deeds to my credit.
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-23 07:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You were the only one who stood there and carried on
a >civil and educational (for both of us and others)
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
dialogue on Goa's Inquisition from which we all
learnt. You did not feel defensive and ....
................................................................
I wish all our dialogues especially the one we are
having on Goans and caste could be so enlightening.
Stop it, Gilbert! You are embarrassing me. I am not
accustomed to this type of praise in public. If you
continue this any further, I would have to quit this
forum. You need to learn how to be self-righteous and
abusive.

But I have got to hand it to you. You are impervious
to criticism and sarcasm, and that is definitely a
good thing on a mailing list.

Cheers,

Santosh
cornel
2005-02-02 16:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert,
In response to your posts, please note that Jose Colaco and I had merely
pointed out that Caste and Class are altogether different and oppositional
concepts. Further, it was implied that some Catholic Goan casteists try to
blur the difference between the two with the hope that such subterfuge will
not be noticed. Unfortunately for them, there are too many smarter Goans
(and not Johnny come lately types as you imply) who can take on any casteist
apologist today, primarily because of education, and professional and class
status in a globalised world.

On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at least,
desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So let
me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done. My grandparents and
their generations before them, intuitively knew that casteism was absolute
hogwash. Nevertheless, they were intimidated and undermined by the hegemonic
casteists in Goa. Unfortunately, my forebears did not have the education nor
skills to take on the casteists and their hegemony. However, I am ever so
glad that I can now do this, with absolute relish and confidence,
especially, in targeting contemporary Catholic Goan casteists wherever they
may appear. Now, can you possibly have a problem with my stance? Do you
want an historically oppressed people to suddenly suffer an attack of
amnesia? Not on your Nellie my friend!

Secondly, Catholic Goan casteism was taken beyond Goa, and across the waters
to places like East Africa with much enthusiasm by a thoroughly disgusting
casteist lot. Their hegemony lasted, pretty triumphantly, for them, upto
about three decades ago and still persists there but not with its former
intensity. Instead it has tried to root itself in the UK, Canada, USA and
other places in more recent times. However, it is my earnest hope that it
is today fighting a losing battle in London, Toronto, Melbourne, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, New Jersey/New York and (believe you me) even in
Oslo! And this is, particularly paradoxically, among people who should know
better through education but have been unable to discard what they absorbed,
very early on, through their mothers' milk. We know this because strident
anti-castists, like me, keep our ears to the ground and know exactly what is
going on. Yet, we are pleased when we hear former casteists accept and state
that Catholic Goan casteism is and has always been totally indefensible. All
I therefore personally seek, Gilbert, is this form of coming out, rather
than the absurdity of some die-hard fellow Goans trying to be defensive
about casteism in this day and age.

In sum, it is my firm belief that it is not by running away from evil that
we overcome it, but by going to meet it. Brown racism aka casteism among
Catholic Goans, in all its manifestations, has to be met head on in the Goan
Diaspora, and simultaneously, but bit by bit in Goa itself.
Cornel DaCosta (London)
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-05 06:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Goans and Caste - Getting Hot Under the Collar

Hi Cornell:
I have waited to the weekend to respond to your post. The weekend gives
us the writers and the readers more time to digest this topic. It may
also be a welcome break for the native Goans who must be overdosed
reading stories of the machinations of the Goa government. Thanks for
responding to my post. You have raised many points. With your
indulgence, I am replying to you point by point, which I usually dislike
doing. I am truly trying to learn from your experiences and hopefully
you can educate me/us with specifics.

Cornel:
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at
least,
desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business was a
thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So
let
me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done.

GL responds: Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last
statement. Please be sure to draw a cause and effect relation. No long
explanations needed!

Cornel:
My grandparents and their generations before them, intuitively knew that
casteism was absolute hogwash. Nevertheless, they were intimidated and
undermined by the hegemonic casteists in Goa. Unfortunately, my
forebears did not have the education nor skills to take on the casteists
and their hegemony. However, I am ever so glad that I can now do this,
with absolute relish and confidence, especially, in targeting
contemporary Catholic Goan casteists wherever they may appear. Now, can
you possibly have a problem with my stance? Do you want an historically
oppressed people to suddenly suffer an attack of amnesia? Not on your
Nellie my friend!

GL responds: You are fighting yesterday's battles today. You are more
likely engaged in verbal fencing with 'shadows of the past'. Of course,
You look mighty good!

Cornel:
Secondly, Catholic Goan casteism was taken beyond Goa, and across the
waters
to places like East Africa with much enthusiasm by a thoroughly
disgusting
casteist lot. Their hegemony lasted, pretty triumphantly, for them, upto

about three decades ago and still persists there but not with its
former
intensity. Instead it has tried to root itself in the UK, Canada, USA
and
other places in more recent times. However, it is my earnest hope that
it
is today fighting a losing battle in London, Toronto, Melbourne, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, New Jersey/New York and (believe you me) even in

Oslo!

GL responds: I will tend to agree with you on this; given the many
'social get-together' divisions in the Goan community seen in large
Diaspora. But still this is not a cause and effect relation. Goans in
Diaspora shun people from their own caste. They seek instead individuals
with common legacy, which may be, they are sure of their caste. That is
why I asked you the question how do you target the population group that
you desire to change? Do you single out all folks from East Africa,
which you identified in your first line of the above paragraph and you
growing up there originally are familiar with them? Is this post copied
to all the East African Goan mailing lists? Or are you preaching to the
choir?

Cornel:
And this is, particularly paradoxically, among people who should know
better through education but have been unable to discard what they
absorbed,
very early on, through their mothers' milk. We know this because
strident
anti-casteists, like me, keep our ears to the ground and know exactly
what is going on.

GL responds: I am sure your 'ears are to the ground' in many places. If
your sources are from Goanet, the same posts that I read, then you are
'hearing some blowing in the wind'.:=)) Because all I read on two major
mailing lists are theories (about caste discrimination) with no specific
examples. Unless of course you are implying that the rude posts that I
receive, sometimes from my own village folks, are casteist in nature and
I am just 'not astute enough to get it'.:=)) Cheeze I thought they were
....:=))

Cornel:
Yet, we are pleased when we hear former casteists accept and state
that Catholic Goan casteism is and has always been totally indefensible.


GL responds: Who are these former casteists? I did not see much support
from you and others (including JC) when I condemned the use of Alcunha
(remember the thread on Professora, Professorachem ghor, cheddo etc.)
where today's Johnny-come-lately(s) rest on the laurels of their
ancestors. Thus in the process some of them do a disservice to
themselves (by being lazy) and to other Goans who were not born with 'a
silver spoon in their mouth'. Yes... Yes... I know you were very
busy...! :=)) Most of the Brahmins were not born with a silver spoon in
their mouth. So I would not accuse the opposition on that thread as
being 'Brown racism aka casteism'. I would merely term them defending a
practice which was a part of Goan feudal society, and their own relic,
which today we Goans can do without. That was my 'take-home message' and
hopefully well received.

Cornel:
All I therefore personally seek, Gilbert, is this form of coming out,
rather
than the absurdity of some die-hard fellow Goans trying to be defensive
about casteism in this day and age.

GL responds: Again please show me practice of specific casteism in THIS
DAY AND AGE. I know I 'can be thick' on observing this aspect of Goan
culture.

Cornel:
In sum, it is my firm belief that it is not by running away from evil
that
we overcome it, but by going to meet it. Brown racism aka casteism among

Catholic Goans, in all its manifestations, has to be met head on in the
Goan
Diaspora, and simultaneously, but bit by bit in Goa itself.

GL responds: All power to you my friend. Please provide us examples in
action like a lower-caste Goan get-together at the Royal Dorchester in
London. In my mind you fight caste by lifting the lower caste up ... and
... real up!

As you live in London, perhaps you have changed things. But if not, why
don't you have a 'reception group' of Goans to welcome and help new Goan
immigrants to London and UK. The migrants are 'outsiders' on whose
behalf you are waging a worthy battle. In my three years in London in
the mid '70s, I was invited to one GOA function even though I had met a
few Goans in that city. I did not know GOA (London) existed.

So as a prominent Goan in London and UK you could do a lot to help
eradicate brown-racism by example rather than words. Again you may be
doing it. So why don't you write posts on how established-Goans in
London help Goan new-arrivals to the UK, other lower caste and lower
class Goan ganv-bhavs and ganv-bhoinis get on their feet? (like the
Sikhs, Patels, Parsees and Jews). And this could be repeated in all Goan
Diasporas that do not have this support. After-all you don't want Goans,
thirty years from now, writing about Goans in London etc., in the 21st
Century (a.k.a. you and me) in effect practiced brown-racism. Don't you
think that would be a worthwhile effort to address in practice on 'caste
or class among Goans'? It's not likely that Goans who NEED PRACTICAL
HELP TODAY will be consoled and satisfied with 'getting hot under the
collar' and excuse you and me for our yeomen work in our 'academic ivory
towers'. Regards.
Mario Goveia
2005-02-05 18:15:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by cornel
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to
suggest, or at least, desperately want to believe,
that all this evil caste business was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is
limited to a few. So let me provide you a brief
response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always
done.
Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last
statement. Please be sure to draw a cause and effect
relation. No long explanations needed!

Mario adds his 2 cents:
My personal experience is that many Catholic Goans
still have a strong preference for their "own caste"
when it comes to their children's marriage partners,
to the extent that there are still children who go
along with this stuff in India or in the diaspora.

We have actually gotten calls from Catholic Goans who
live in India, Canada, the UK and the US who will call
and ask us about a certain young man or woman we may
know and the caste issue has often come up, sometimes
overtly and sometime in subtle ways like wanting to
know which village in Goa the family is from. They
never call back after my 15 minute tirade asking them
to first make up their minds whether they are
Catholics or not before asking us such questions.

I personally know a family in India where one son
married a very accomplished girl from another caste,
and she is not welcome in the parent's house, even
after over 5 years of marriage. Another son has
married within their caste and is welcome. These
hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's wife, WHO
IS EUROPEAN. They made the mistake of calling me to
inquire about someone for another one of their
children, and needless to say, after I was done with
them, we are no longer on speaking terms.

I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage
where the issue of caste is relevent among Catholic
Goans.
jose colaco
2005-02-05 20:36:13 UTC
Permalink
From: Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>

<I personally know a family in India where one son married a very
accomplished girl from another caste, and she is not welcome in the parent's
house, even after over 5 years of marriage.>

< Another son has married within their caste and is welcome.>

< These hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's wife, WHO IS EUROPEAN.>

<I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage where the issue of
caste is relevent among Catholic Goans.>





I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes one of the "upper caste" in
the Varna (colour) system.

It is not restricted to Catholic Goans ....even though the term "Catholic
caste" is an oxymoron.

Almost like a Compassionate Rightie or Leftie ! (what sez Mario ?)


There is a strong belief based on DNA studies that the Chitpawan Brahmins
like Tilak, Damle et al are Jews from EUROPE. ( CD of studies available
online from Dr. Jagannath Dixit )

Besides, not much is known of the Chitpawans until 500 years ago.

...... another Parshuram Arrow story (perhaps)

I am of the opinion that this thing called "caste" is NOT as important
during marriage among educated Catholic Goans in Goa & the rest of India
....as it is among Catholic Goans who live abroad.

It is present ....but not as much when compared to NRGs

It also is there within the Catholic Church! of that - I am quite sure. In
the 2002 synod, it was recommended that each parish should have ONE
confraria with ONE dress code. Doubt that has come into uniform effect yet.

I suppose this separation plays right into the Swadeshi project - especially
as it was never ever abolished within the Church.


jc

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goanet-admin
2005-02-06 07:06:40 UTC
Permalink
Jose Colaco <colaco_2 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Mario wrote:
These hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's
wife, WHO IS EUROPEAN.>
Post by jose colaco
<I am not aware of any circumstance other than
marriage where the issue of caste is relevent among
Catholic Goans.>
Post by jose colaco
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes
one of the "upper caste" in the Varna (colour) system.
Post by jose colaco
It is not restricted to Catholic Goans ....even
though the term "Catholic caste" is an oxymoron.
Almost like a Compassionate Rightie or Leftie !
(what sez Mario ?)
Mario sez:
Jose, I can tell you that accepting an European D-I-L
and rejecting an Indian D-I-L, regardless of their
relative complexions, does not dilute or enhance the
hypocrisy of the family I mentioned. They are still
world-class hypocrites.

Second, there is a good reason why I did not mention
non-Catholic Goans, and that is that the section of
the discussion between Cornel and Gilbert in which I
intervened was restricted to Catholic Goans. In my
opinion, mentioning non-Catholic Goans did not fir in
and would have only complicated the discussion. Yes,
"Catholic caste" is an oxymoron at the theoretical
level but not in the real world where it is very much
a fact of life.
Post by jose colaco
I am of the opinion that this thing called "caste"
is NOT as important during marriage among educated
Catholic Goans in Goa & the rest of India ....as it is
among Catholic Goans who live abroad.
Post by jose colaco
It is present ....but not as much when compared to
NRGs.
Mario replies:
I understand that that is your opinion. However,
whether your opinion fits the facts or not is what
this dialog is all about. In my opinion, based on the
limited sample of calls I have received, it is just as
prevalent among Goans in Goa as with Goans in India
but outside Goa, and as with NRGs, whether educated or
not.
Jose says:
It also is there within the Catholic Church! of that
- I am quite sure. In the 2002 synod, it was
recommended that each parish should have ONE
confraria with ONE dress code. Doubt that has come
into uniform effect yet.
Post by jose colaco
I suppose this separation plays right into the
Swadeshi project - especially as it was never ever
abolished within the Church.

Mario replies:
I have no idea whether the official "Catholic Church"
in Goa has anything to do with caste, and I don't see
how any Catholic Church can support the apartheit that
the caste system is similar to, and still claim to be
Catholic.

However, I am aware that in Kerala there are separate
Catholic Churches and parishes for Dalits, and Dalits
do not attend the "upper caste" Catholic Churches,
which is an abominable and despicable situation in my
opinion.
goanet-admin
2005-02-06 22:35:20 UTC
Permalink
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]RE: Goans and Caste
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes
one of the "upper caste" in the Varna (colour) system.
Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would
have lived a charmed life istead of the piteously precarious
lot that, with the exception of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been
has predominatly dogged them.

_________________________________________________________________
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goanet-admin
2005-02-07 04:20:52 UTC
Permalink
<Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would have lived a
charmed life istead of the piteously precarious lot that, with the exception
of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly dogged them.>




Of course with this new "system" that Goanet admin has instituted - I don't
know to whom I am responding.

All power and glory to their brilliance.


Anyway ......

by 'anglos' - I trust you mean Anglo-Indians....right? ...because true
Anglos are Full Brits.

No idea how many 'mestizos' and 'anglo-indians' you have met or known.

I trust that you know the difference between FULL WHITE and NOT FULL WHITE

As in the US and in the UK ..... like among Indian Brahmins ......pure is
pure!

Also try ascertain WHO contribute to the non-WHITE component in
Anglo-Indians and Mestizos

NOT Brahmins or Kshatriyas.

hey......even if a blue blooded "Brahmin" were to have a child with a
"Sudra" ...... and that child was WHITE as Afghan Snow ..... that child was
a "Sudra" ! (Please read Manu)

Now..... to WHOM did I reply?

sincerely

jose colaco
zoncar de Carabolim

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goanet-admin
2005-02-07 22:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mario:
Thanks for reading my post on this thread and responding to it. From
your past posts and views on this subject, you are far from being an
apologist about caste attitudes among Goans. In fact, one could describe
you as very hostile to anyone who may demonstrate an inclination to
caste considerations as your post below and others suggest.

Yet, in your response and other posts, you have never claimed the
existence of casteism in the Goa's Catholic Church in the period you
grew up (and since) in Goa and Bombay. I hope Cornell who spent much of
his life in East Africa and England will learn from you (and me) -
individuals who were a lot closer to round zero. Now if some native
Goans can provide statistics and factual patterns of behavior (not
isolated instances, personal grudges or preconceptions), that may bring
all of us up to speed on a subject that so far has raised more heat than
light.

But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary. Perhaps Goa Sudharop can help channel the
tax-free contribution to this worthwhile cause. I wonder if George Pinto
of California (who has also expressed an opinion on this subject) is
reading this.

Now to the issue of individuals inquiring about caste at the time of
marriage. I would submit to you that THIS DOES OCCUR. Now if that is the
only factor that people (parents) take into consideration, then a
prospective recipient should be happy that they did not receive a soirik
from this family. Because this is likely a very narrow-minded family and
the new in-law especially from Canada would be better-off not having
anything to do with these types.

On the other hand, inquiries about caste can also one of very many many
questions one asks about an individual. I would call it 'due
diligence'. Should not one inquire about education, job, place of
residence, school, college, personal habits, family background etc. and
may even be good looks. Someone who does not have an attribute may
complain equally loud about any of these inquiries. Now no one is
perfect. All individuals are a balance. And to feel diffident for lack
of an attribute is really a sign of (lack of) self-confidence and
self-worth.

In fact at an interview for a new job, one inquires about all and sundry
- pleasant and unpleasant things about the employer and employee. Would
not your curiosity interest you about the ethnic background of your
employers, employees, co-workers or clients? Is there something wrong
with that? Would you take or turn down the job just on that single
factor - NO soiree! If you do, then it will be your loss.

Finally a single guy explained why he was not married.
Questioner: Why you are not married?
He said: I am waiting for the prefect girl.
Questioner: So did you not find any?
He said: Yes I did find a few.
Questioner: So what happened?
He said: They wanted the perfect guy.
Regards Gilbert

Mario adds his 2 cents:
My personal experience is that many Catholic Goans still have a strong
preference for their "own caste" when it comes to their children's
marriage partners, to the extent that there are still children who go
along with this stuff in India or in the Diaspora.

I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage where the issue
of caste is relevant among Catholic Goans.

Gilbert:
Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last statement. Please be
sure to draw a cause and effect relation. No long explanations needed!

Cornel:
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at
least, desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business
was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So
let me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic
Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done.
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 02:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Something strange is happening on Goanet recently.
All the posts are being identified as being from
goanet-admin at goanet.org, and not from the poster. For
example, the attached post is a comment in response to
something that Dr. Jose Colaco posted, but we can't
tell who it's from????
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]RE: Goans and Caste
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically
becomes one of the "upper caste" in the Varna
(colour) system.
Unidentified Poster??? comments
Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and
'anglos' would have lived a charmed life istead of
the piteously precarious lot that, with the exception
of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly
dogged them.
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goanet-admin
2005-02-08 02:18:20 UTC
Permalink
A few questions:

1. How far is Porto from Lisbon by car?
2. Is there a direct train from Lisbon airport to central Porto?
3. Any Goan organization in Porto?
4. Any Goan function in either Lisbon or Porto from Mar 26 - Apr 2?

Please reply to georgejpinto at yahoo.com

Thanks,
George Pinto
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
In fact, one could describe you as very hostile to
anyone who may demonstrate an inclination to caste
considerations as your post below and others suggest.
Mario clarifies:
Gilbert, I am not hostile to "anyone" personally, but
militantly and fundamentally opposed to any concept
that forms opinions and takes actions for or against
someone based on factors which they had nothing to do
with, rather than on their personal achievements and
the content of their character. Thus I oppose the
caste system, period, and even more so among
Catholics, where it goes against every tenet of
Christianity. I have seen far too many very good
people and families devastated by such discriminatory
thinking regardless of how the perpetrators choose to
sugar-coat it.
Post by goanet-admin
Yet, in your response and other posts, you have
never claimed the existence of casteism in the Goa's
Catholic Church in the period you grew up (and since)
in Goa and Bombay. I hope Cornell who spent much of
his life in East Africa and England will learn from
you (and me) - individuals who were a lot closer to
round zero. Now if some native Goans can provide
statistics and factual patterns of behavior (not
isolated instances, personal grudges or pre-
conceptions), that may bring all of us up to speed on
a subject that so far has raised more heat than
light.
Mario clarifies:
I grew up in Jabalpur where there were few Goans and
so Goan Catholic casteism was rarely talked about. I
have never lived in Goa and have never discussed
casteism with any Catholic priest anywhere in the
context of the Catholic Church. I took it for granted
that they would be against the caste system. The term
"Catholic caste" is an oxymoron, as someone said
recently, and I would denounce any Catholic priest who
did not denounce the continuing practice of casteism
among Catholics.

I categorically denounce the necessity and reality of
Dalit parishes in Kerala because Dalits are not
welcome in "upper-caste" Catholic parishes, and I
would do the same with regard to any parish in Goa
that discrimintated against anyone based on their
"caste" or color or any other basis other than their
personal behavior.

I don't see how statistics would affect any of this.
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 07:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Solly, ol' boy, it was I .....chuk zalli, matar? zatam re saiba... senility,
decreptitude creeps in; foward-leaping G-net leaps away, leaving the age
challenged to challenge age...

Alfred Methuselah
From: "jose colaco" <colaco_2 at hotmail.com>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: RE: Goans and Caste again
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 00:35:51 +0000
<Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would have lived a
charmed life istead of the piteously precarious lot that, with the
exception of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly dogged them.
goanet-admin
2005-02-09 02:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by goanet-admin
But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary.
The issue is not a lack of funding. The Goa Church is one of Goa's richest institutions
(approximately 165 parishes, schools, etc.). It has the money to fund seminarians. The issue is
whether there is a will among church authorities and the laity to end the caste system practiced
by some Goan Catholics.

On a somewhat related issue, there is no lack of vocations/priests in India, over 1,000 are
ordained every year and Indian priests continue to be "exported" to places like the USA, Canada,
and some parts of Europe where there is a shortage. The Asian, African, Latin American Catholic
markets are the fastest growing in the world. However, they have little to show for it at the
Vatican which is run mostly by Europeans - brown and black people doing the hard work while the
honors are reserved for Europeans. Most unfortunate.

Regards,
George Pinto
goanet-admin
2005-02-11 05:02:32 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
No more excuses!
Raise the money!
Offer it DIRECTLY TO THE LOWER CASTE CATHOLIC Goans who desire to join
the seminary but cannot afford it.
Let's see if there are any Givers and Takers.
It can't get any simpler.
Regards indifference of Europeans to Goan/Asian saints. Please tell us:
How the Goan community, under your leadership, celebrated the Feast of
Blessed Joseph in California? Did not see any posts before or after the
fest.
Thanks, Regards.

Jose Colaco:
Well said George. And Catholics who normally make a big spiel about
"cafeteria Catholicism" may wish to understand very clearly that:

1. The Caste System is contrary to Christianity
2. That the Death Penalty is contrary to the Commandment which says -
Thou
Shalt NOT kill.

George Pinto:
The issue is not a lack of funding... The issue is whether there is a
will
among church authorities and the laity to end the caste system practiced
by
some Goan Catholics>

Gilbert Lawrence:
But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary>
George Pinto
2005-02-14 04:45:55 UTC
Permalink
This is a response to Gilbert's two recent emails on caste and Goans. I had chosen to ignore the
first one, but when fiction is repeated, it deserves a response at least to get some basic facts
right.........

Either Gilbert does not think through the issues or ignores the facts or is in haste or his logic
does not serve him well. His respones have been pretty lame of late and does not do credit to his
ability.

1. I would like to know what HE did to celebrate the Blessed Vaz feast (it is important not to
throw stones at others from a glass house). Yes, it was celebrated individually by supporters
here (in fact there is a long history of such activity which I do not care to repeat).
Additionally, everytime something is done it does not need to be reported in Goan cyberspace and
splashed several times across the lists (this is not World Goa Day). As far as the world-wide
Goan community and Goan associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to the
Euro-centric, and servient role to colonial history and European saints. If they cannot step out
from their second-class past, don't ask me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my
time to help them. If they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine. Additionally, I
am not President of the Goan Association (I was in 1990-2001). I am active in Goa Sudharop but
hardly consider my myself a leader in the Goan community, others are doing a better job.
Additionally, Goa Sudharop by its mission is non-religious and non-political (hence you won't see
religious or politcal events scheduled and announced).

2. As far as caste goes, Gilbert is again confused (more than his normal confusion). The issue
once again is not a lack of funds or lack of Dalit seminarians or whatever bogus issue Gilbert
introduces, but the discrimatory practice of the caste system practiced by some in the Catholic
church heirarchy and by some laity. He suggested earlier it does not exist because he has not
experienced it. This is the same "head in sand" approach as the sex abuse issue by priests. The
caste system has to be solved collectively. I have done my bit by pointing it out and I am not
willing to do more at this point. It is MY CHOICE how I spend my time and money and sometimes some
good causes do not get the attention they deserve. Perhaps Gilbert can pick up the slack.

Please don't waste my time having to respond to fairytale emails. I learnt from my experience in
2000 (specifically with respect to the Blessed Vaz issue) that most cybergoans will waste time
emailing, rather than actually doing something. I am not willing to go down that path again.

The problem with Gilbert and others like him who are defensive about the Church, is they have
never had an activist bent, never been in a protest or demonstration or fought for justice. They
do not identify or understand some of the injustices that do exist in the Catholic Church or in
society at large. It makes them uncomfortable when others point it out. They prefer to sweep it
under the carpet or deny it exists. Their response is to hide under the Church skirts and become
defensive.

Please take time to understand without wasting my time. I do not see my role here as educative.

Regards,
George
Very good questions. Perhaps they need to be answered by those who make
or allege these situations. I was merely suggesting ways these folks
could solve their concerns themselves - Not relying on someone else to
address their distress. Aum appurbaen rautam to hear about the
celebrations of Goans on Jan 16, for the feast of Blessed Joseph Vaz
across the Goan Diaspora.
What are you suggesting my friend? That there are "lower caste" Catholic
Goans who desire to join the seminary but do not because they cannot
afford it? Is that what you are saying?
May I ask .... on what basis .....you maketh that statement? Is there a
fee for joining the seminary in Goa? Something new happened while I was
out to dinner?
<No more excuses! Raise the money!
Offer it DIRECTLY TO THE LOWER CASTE CATHOLIC Goans who desire to join
the seminary but cannot afford it.
Let's see if there are any Givers and Takers.
It can't get any simpler.>
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-15 23:55:54 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
George is welcome to ignore this post! However other cyberGoans should
not be denied the analysis. To begin with, let me apologize for his
outburst. I also apologize for the logic escaping GP about Blessed
Joseph Vaz - the Patron Saint of Goa. People do get 'hot under the
collar' when their long essays are shown for what they are, and perhaps
their ego's deflated.

The reason why I brought up the celebration of Blessed Joseph Vaz feast
in the Goan Diasporas is because there are Goans (no names please) that
claim (off all things) white racial discrimination in not celebrating
Goan saints by the supposedly 'white Catholic Church'. So I see the N.
California Goans did not have a celebration for their own patron Goan
saint. I am amused by "celebrated individually by his supporters.":=))
So, now is it that 'White Catholics' discriminate and 'Brown Catholics'
show prejudice too? How about Catholics are not being too religious?
:=)) In fact it is my understanding that the N. California Goans did not
even jointly celebrate the feast of SFX last year on / around December
3. Perhaps the SFX feast was "celebrated individually by his
supporters."

I didn't see this 'individual celebration' among Goans for Christmas and
New Year which is the biggest Western influence (Emperor Constantine's
carry-over of the pagan mid-winter festivity) in the world. In fact the
Goan cruise-gala in San Francisco bay (with multiple postings on cyber
Goa) or similar activity could have been done two weeks later to honor
the Goan Patron Saint.

So Senhor / Shri Pinto and others, please practice what you preach. Of
course it is difficult to promote upholding Goan cultural practices when
Goan cultural symbols are being repeatedly crushed. I hope one finds
logic in this statement and this should not be too difficult to
understand. :=)) On a note of total agreement with GP, Goan culture in
the Diaspora needs urgent attention.

Be my guest in Utica, NY, and see the Italians (from the East Coast of
USA and Canada) celebrate the feast of Saints Cosmos and Damian with
street procession of statues, band, rosary and hymns ani magir mass in
Italian. This is after coming to this country more than 100 years ago.
Regards, GL, Utica, NY.

George Pinto: (N. California)
Yes, it was celebrated individually by supporters here (in fact there is
a long history of such activity which I do not care to repeat).
Additionally, every time something is done it does not need to be
reported in Goan cyberspace and splashed several times across the lists
(this is not World Goa Day). As far as the world-wide Goan community
and Goan associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to
the Euro-centric, and servient role to colonial history and European
saints. If they cannot step out from their second-class past, don't ask
me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my time to help
them. If they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine.
George Pinto
2005-02-16 04:05:21 UTC
Permalink
I think Gilbert is blinded by computer glare as he reads the posts. There is no other explanation
for his inane responses, without basic logic. See his responses to my original post.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The reason why I brought up the celebration of Blessed Joseph Vaz feast
in the Goan Diasporas is because there are Goans (no names please) that
claim (off all things) white racial discrimination in not celebrating
Goan saints by the supposedly 'white Catholic Church'.
This is what I (George) originally wrote "As far as the world-wide Goan community and Goan
associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to the Euro-centric, and servient
role to colonial history and European saints. If they cannot step out from their second-class
past, don't ask me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my time to help them. If
they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine." It is clear my point is Goans
themselves have ignored to celebrate Blessed Vaz on a large scale - of course, the Vatican has
helped. The blame for the lack of Blessed Vaz support lies with Goan Catholics, including the Goan
Catholic church, and the Vatican shares some of the blame too. Don't blame the Joseph Naik Vaz
Institute which are one of the few who ACTUALLY did something. I also think Gilbert is confusing
(nothing new!) the Joseph Naik Vaz Institute with Goa Sudharop, two separate organizations. Also
Gilbert has again not mentioned how HE celebrated the Blessed Vaz feast or how NY Goans celebrated
it. Not that Gilbert is responsible for NY Goans and what they do any more than I am responsible
for Northern California Goans and what they do. But that is his silly logic.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Gilbert wrote....
In fact the Goan cruise-gala in San Francisco bay (with multiple postings on cyber
Goa) or similar activity could have been done two weeks later to honor
the Goan Patron Saint.
The above is borderline idiocy. First of all, Goa Sudharop is a non-profit and as I mentioned in
my prior post, cannot engage in religious or political activities (both its mission and IRS
regulations do not permit it). Goa Sudharop CANNOT celebrate a religious feast like Blessed Vaz.
Goa Sudharop and the Joseph Naik Vaz Institute are two separate organizations. Comprehende
Gilbert? For Gilbert's benefit, one more time - Goa Sudharop CANNOT celebrate a religious feast
like Blessed Vaz. Goa Sudharop and the Joseph Naik Vaz Institute are two separate organizations.
Comprehende Gilbert?

Gilbert, please read the posts several times and take time to understand. It might help. A famous
Goan world-class oncologist should not write without logic, facts, or sense and waste people's
time.

So Gilbert, what did YOU do to celebrate the Blessed Vaz feast and promote his cause?

Regards,
George
Mario Goveia
2005-02-21 20:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Being on vacation and blessedly losing the thread of
this discussion, I am trying to figure out how a
debate about the diabolical caste system and the
obvious contradiction between this ancient social
stratification of Hindu society and the teachings of
Christ, who preached that all human beings were equal
in the eyes of God, has descended into a stone
throwing contest between two blue states in the US
trying to claim some sort of moral superiority based
on celebrating the feasts of selected saints. SAINTS,
for crying out loud!!!

Do we have the bull by the tail here, folks? After
all, aren't saints simply exemplary people whose lives
and works have been formally recognized by the Church?
No more, no less?

Are we C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N-S or S-A-I-N-T-I-A-N-S? Is
it even important or logical to go overboard to
celebrate ANY saint? Remember and honor them? Yes.
Learn from them? Certainly. Ask them to intercede on
our behalf because they are already in heaven? Can't
hurt. But to go any further? Think about it.
Post by George Pinto
I think Gilbert is blinded by computer glare as he
reads the posts. There is no other explanation
for his inane responses, without basic logic. See
his responses to my original post.
--- Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The reason why I brought up the celebration of
Blessed Joseph Vaz feast
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
in the Goan Diasporas is because there are Goans
(no names please) that
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
claim (off all things) white racial discrimination
in not celebrating
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Goan saints by the supposedly 'white Catholic
Church'.
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-23 02:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,
So very nice to hear from you.
By all means you can take full credit for that compliment.
You were the only one who stood there and carried on a civil and
educational (for both of us and others) dialogue on Goa's Inquisition
from which we all learnt.
You did not feel defensive and ....
There was nothing defensive for either of us to be anxious about.

I wish all our dialogues especially the one we are having on Goans and
caste could be so enlightening.
It can only be so if there are facts - that are either there or not
there;
And we then know definitely what occurs or did not occur and not some
else's outlook or (mis) representation of the events.

In fact today I was reading about Goa. I came across a reference of how
the same dish in Goa is cooked differently and taste differently in
Goa's different castes. Can you and / or someone enlighten me if this is
true?
I am always willing to learn - the facts. Growing up in Bombay, I know
for a fact that 'the same dish' is fixed differently and taste
differently when fixed by a Goan compared to a Mangalorean or East
Indian. I will not go into which tastes better, because that would not
be a fact. :=)):=))

Regards, GL


Santosh Helekar
This is becoming like the thread about the Inquisition in Goa.
Everybody and his mother-in-law had strong views on the Inquisition.
When we ask for facts and statistics, it was DE NADA - SILENCE,
except for Dr. Santosh Helekar.
Santosh:
Gilbert has been giving me a lot of good publicity lately. I want to
thank him for this yet another good deed.
Gilbert, Can I publicise your above compliment as your acknowledgement
of my good deed? I don't have very many good deeds to my credit.
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-23 07:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You were the only one who stood there and carried on
a >civil and educational (for both of us and others)
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
dialogue on Goa's Inquisition from which we all
learnt. You did not feel defensive and ....
................................................................
I wish all our dialogues especially the one we are
having on Goans and caste could be so enlightening.
Stop it, Gilbert! You are embarrassing me. I am not
accustomed to this type of praise in public. If you
continue this any further, I would have to quit this
forum. You need to learn how to be self-righteous and
abusive.

But I have got to hand it to you. You are impervious
to criticism and sarcasm, and that is definitely a
good thing on a mailing list.

Cheers,

Santosh
cornel
2005-02-02 16:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert,
In response to your posts, please note that Jose Colaco and I had merely
pointed out that Caste and Class are altogether different and oppositional
concepts. Further, it was implied that some Catholic Goan casteists try to
blur the difference between the two with the hope that such subterfuge will
not be noticed. Unfortunately for them, there are too many smarter Goans
(and not Johnny come lately types as you imply) who can take on any casteist
apologist today, primarily because of education, and professional and class
status in a globalised world.

On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at least,
desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So let
me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done. My grandparents and
their generations before them, intuitively knew that casteism was absolute
hogwash. Nevertheless, they were intimidated and undermined by the hegemonic
casteists in Goa. Unfortunately, my forebears did not have the education nor
skills to take on the casteists and their hegemony. However, I am ever so
glad that I can now do this, with absolute relish and confidence,
especially, in targeting contemporary Catholic Goan casteists wherever they
may appear. Now, can you possibly have a problem with my stance? Do you
want an historically oppressed people to suddenly suffer an attack of
amnesia? Not on your Nellie my friend!

Secondly, Catholic Goan casteism was taken beyond Goa, and across the waters
to places like East Africa with much enthusiasm by a thoroughly disgusting
casteist lot. Their hegemony lasted, pretty triumphantly, for them, upto
about three decades ago and still persists there but not with its former
intensity. Instead it has tried to root itself in the UK, Canada, USA and
other places in more recent times. However, it is my earnest hope that it
is today fighting a losing battle in London, Toronto, Melbourne, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, New Jersey/New York and (believe you me) even in
Oslo! And this is, particularly paradoxically, among people who should know
better through education but have been unable to discard what they absorbed,
very early on, through their mothers' milk. We know this because strident
anti-castists, like me, keep our ears to the ground and know exactly what is
going on. Yet, we are pleased when we hear former casteists accept and state
that Catholic Goan casteism is and has always been totally indefensible. All
I therefore personally seek, Gilbert, is this form of coming out, rather
than the absurdity of some die-hard fellow Goans trying to be defensive
about casteism in this day and age.

In sum, it is my firm belief that it is not by running away from evil that
we overcome it, but by going to meet it. Brown racism aka casteism among
Catholic Goans, in all its manifestations, has to be met head on in the Goan
Diaspora, and simultaneously, but bit by bit in Goa itself.
Cornel DaCosta (London)
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-05 06:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Goans and Caste - Getting Hot Under the Collar

Hi Cornell:
I have waited to the weekend to respond to your post. The weekend gives
us the writers and the readers more time to digest this topic. It may
also be a welcome break for the native Goans who must be overdosed
reading stories of the machinations of the Goa government. Thanks for
responding to my post. You have raised many points. With your
indulgence, I am replying to you point by point, which I usually dislike
doing. I am truly trying to learn from your experiences and hopefully
you can educate me/us with specifics.

Cornel:
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at
least,
desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business was a
thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So
let
me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done.

GL responds: Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last
statement. Please be sure to draw a cause and effect relation. No long
explanations needed!

Cornel:
My grandparents and their generations before them, intuitively knew that
casteism was absolute hogwash. Nevertheless, they were intimidated and
undermined by the hegemonic casteists in Goa. Unfortunately, my
forebears did not have the education nor skills to take on the casteists
and their hegemony. However, I am ever so glad that I can now do this,
with absolute relish and confidence, especially, in targeting
contemporary Catholic Goan casteists wherever they may appear. Now, can
you possibly have a problem with my stance? Do you want an historically
oppressed people to suddenly suffer an attack of amnesia? Not on your
Nellie my friend!

GL responds: You are fighting yesterday's battles today. You are more
likely engaged in verbal fencing with 'shadows of the past'. Of course,
You look mighty good!

Cornel:
Secondly, Catholic Goan casteism was taken beyond Goa, and across the
waters
to places like East Africa with much enthusiasm by a thoroughly
disgusting
casteist lot. Their hegemony lasted, pretty triumphantly, for them, upto

about three decades ago and still persists there but not with its
former
intensity. Instead it has tried to root itself in the UK, Canada, USA
and
other places in more recent times. However, it is my earnest hope that
it
is today fighting a losing battle in London, Toronto, Melbourne, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, New Jersey/New York and (believe you me) even in

Oslo!

GL responds: I will tend to agree with you on this; given the many
'social get-together' divisions in the Goan community seen in large
Diaspora. But still this is not a cause and effect relation. Goans in
Diaspora shun people from their own caste. They seek instead individuals
with common legacy, which may be, they are sure of their caste. That is
why I asked you the question how do you target the population group that
you desire to change? Do you single out all folks from East Africa,
which you identified in your first line of the above paragraph and you
growing up there originally are familiar with them? Is this post copied
to all the East African Goan mailing lists? Or are you preaching to the
choir?

Cornel:
And this is, particularly paradoxically, among people who should know
better through education but have been unable to discard what they
absorbed,
very early on, through their mothers' milk. We know this because
strident
anti-casteists, like me, keep our ears to the ground and know exactly
what is going on.

GL responds: I am sure your 'ears are to the ground' in many places. If
your sources are from Goanet, the same posts that I read, then you are
'hearing some blowing in the wind'.:=)) Because all I read on two major
mailing lists are theories (about caste discrimination) with no specific
examples. Unless of course you are implying that the rude posts that I
receive, sometimes from my own village folks, are casteist in nature and
I am just 'not astute enough to get it'.:=)) Cheeze I thought they were
....:=))

Cornel:
Yet, we are pleased when we hear former casteists accept and state
that Catholic Goan casteism is and has always been totally indefensible.


GL responds: Who are these former casteists? I did not see much support
from you and others (including JC) when I condemned the use of Alcunha
(remember the thread on Professora, Professorachem ghor, cheddo etc.)
where today's Johnny-come-lately(s) rest on the laurels of their
ancestors. Thus in the process some of them do a disservice to
themselves (by being lazy) and to other Goans who were not born with 'a
silver spoon in their mouth'. Yes... Yes... I know you were very
busy...! :=)) Most of the Brahmins were not born with a silver spoon in
their mouth. So I would not accuse the opposition on that thread as
being 'Brown racism aka casteism'. I would merely term them defending a
practice which was a part of Goan feudal society, and their own relic,
which today we Goans can do without. That was my 'take-home message' and
hopefully well received.

Cornel:
All I therefore personally seek, Gilbert, is this form of coming out,
rather
than the absurdity of some die-hard fellow Goans trying to be defensive
about casteism in this day and age.

GL responds: Again please show me practice of specific casteism in THIS
DAY AND AGE. I know I 'can be thick' on observing this aspect of Goan
culture.

Cornel:
In sum, it is my firm belief that it is not by running away from evil
that
we overcome it, but by going to meet it. Brown racism aka casteism among

Catholic Goans, in all its manifestations, has to be met head on in the
Goan
Diaspora, and simultaneously, but bit by bit in Goa itself.

GL responds: All power to you my friend. Please provide us examples in
action like a lower-caste Goan get-together at the Royal Dorchester in
London. In my mind you fight caste by lifting the lower caste up ... and
... real up!

As you live in London, perhaps you have changed things. But if not, why
don't you have a 'reception group' of Goans to welcome and help new Goan
immigrants to London and UK. The migrants are 'outsiders' on whose
behalf you are waging a worthy battle. In my three years in London in
the mid '70s, I was invited to one GOA function even though I had met a
few Goans in that city. I did not know GOA (London) existed.

So as a prominent Goan in London and UK you could do a lot to help
eradicate brown-racism by example rather than words. Again you may be
doing it. So why don't you write posts on how established-Goans in
London help Goan new-arrivals to the UK, other lower caste and lower
class Goan ganv-bhavs and ganv-bhoinis get on their feet? (like the
Sikhs, Patels, Parsees and Jews). And this could be repeated in all Goan
Diasporas that do not have this support. After-all you don't want Goans,
thirty years from now, writing about Goans in London etc., in the 21st
Century (a.k.a. you and me) in effect practiced brown-racism. Don't you
think that would be a worthwhile effort to address in practice on 'caste
or class among Goans'? It's not likely that Goans who NEED PRACTICAL
HELP TODAY will be consoled and satisfied with 'getting hot under the
collar' and excuse you and me for our yeomen work in our 'academic ivory
towers'. Regards.
Mario Goveia
2005-02-05 18:15:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by cornel
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to
suggest, or at least, desperately want to believe,
that all this evil caste business was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is
limited to a few. So let me provide you a brief
response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always
done.
Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last
statement. Please be sure to draw a cause and effect
relation. No long explanations needed!

Mario adds his 2 cents:
My personal experience is that many Catholic Goans
still have a strong preference for their "own caste"
when it comes to their children's marriage partners,
to the extent that there are still children who go
along with this stuff in India or in the diaspora.

We have actually gotten calls from Catholic Goans who
live in India, Canada, the UK and the US who will call
and ask us about a certain young man or woman we may
know and the caste issue has often come up, sometimes
overtly and sometime in subtle ways like wanting to
know which village in Goa the family is from. They
never call back after my 15 minute tirade asking them
to first make up their minds whether they are
Catholics or not before asking us such questions.

I personally know a family in India where one son
married a very accomplished girl from another caste,
and she is not welcome in the parent's house, even
after over 5 years of marriage. Another son has
married within their caste and is welcome. These
hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's wife, WHO
IS EUROPEAN. They made the mistake of calling me to
inquire about someone for another one of their
children, and needless to say, after I was done with
them, we are no longer on speaking terms.

I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage
where the issue of caste is relevent among Catholic
Goans.
jose colaco
2005-02-05 20:36:13 UTC
Permalink
From: Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>

<I personally know a family in India where one son married a very
accomplished girl from another caste, and she is not welcome in the parent's
house, even after over 5 years of marriage.>

< Another son has married within their caste and is welcome.>

< These hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's wife, WHO IS EUROPEAN.>

<I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage where the issue of
caste is relevent among Catholic Goans.>





I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes one of the "upper caste" in
the Varna (colour) system.

It is not restricted to Catholic Goans ....even though the term "Catholic
caste" is an oxymoron.

Almost like a Compassionate Rightie or Leftie ! (what sez Mario ?)


There is a strong belief based on DNA studies that the Chitpawan Brahmins
like Tilak, Damle et al are Jews from EUROPE. ( CD of studies available
online from Dr. Jagannath Dixit )

Besides, not much is known of the Chitpawans until 500 years ago.

...... another Parshuram Arrow story (perhaps)

I am of the opinion that this thing called "caste" is NOT as important
during marriage among educated Catholic Goans in Goa & the rest of India
....as it is among Catholic Goans who live abroad.

It is present ....but not as much when compared to NRGs

It also is there within the Catholic Church! of that - I am quite sure. In
the 2002 synod, it was recommended that each parish should have ONE
confraria with ONE dress code. Doubt that has come into uniform effect yet.

I suppose this separation plays right into the Swadeshi project - especially
as it was never ever abolished within the Church.


jc

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goanet-admin
2005-02-06 07:06:40 UTC
Permalink
Jose Colaco <colaco_2 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Mario wrote:
These hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's
wife, WHO IS EUROPEAN.>
Post by jose colaco
<I am not aware of any circumstance other than
marriage where the issue of caste is relevent among
Catholic Goans.>
Post by jose colaco
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes
one of the "upper caste" in the Varna (colour) system.
Post by jose colaco
It is not restricted to Catholic Goans ....even
though the term "Catholic caste" is an oxymoron.
Almost like a Compassionate Rightie or Leftie !
(what sez Mario ?)
Mario sez:
Jose, I can tell you that accepting an European D-I-L
and rejecting an Indian D-I-L, regardless of their
relative complexions, does not dilute or enhance the
hypocrisy of the family I mentioned. They are still
world-class hypocrites.

Second, there is a good reason why I did not mention
non-Catholic Goans, and that is that the section of
the discussion between Cornel and Gilbert in which I
intervened was restricted to Catholic Goans. In my
opinion, mentioning non-Catholic Goans did not fir in
and would have only complicated the discussion. Yes,
"Catholic caste" is an oxymoron at the theoretical
level but not in the real world where it is very much
a fact of life.
Post by jose colaco
I am of the opinion that this thing called "caste"
is NOT as important during marriage among educated
Catholic Goans in Goa & the rest of India ....as it is
among Catholic Goans who live abroad.
Post by jose colaco
It is present ....but not as much when compared to
NRGs.
Mario replies:
I understand that that is your opinion. However,
whether your opinion fits the facts or not is what
this dialog is all about. In my opinion, based on the
limited sample of calls I have received, it is just as
prevalent among Goans in Goa as with Goans in India
but outside Goa, and as with NRGs, whether educated or
not.
Jose says:
It also is there within the Catholic Church! of that
- I am quite sure. In the 2002 synod, it was
recommended that each parish should have ONE
confraria with ONE dress code. Doubt that has come
into uniform effect yet.
Post by jose colaco
I suppose this separation plays right into the
Swadeshi project - especially as it was never ever
abolished within the Church.

Mario replies:
I have no idea whether the official "Catholic Church"
in Goa has anything to do with caste, and I don't see
how any Catholic Church can support the apartheit that
the caste system is similar to, and still claim to be
Catholic.

However, I am aware that in Kerala there are separate
Catholic Churches and parishes for Dalits, and Dalits
do not attend the "upper caste" Catholic Churches,
which is an abominable and despicable situation in my
opinion.
goanet-admin
2005-02-06 22:35:20 UTC
Permalink
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]RE: Goans and Caste
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes
one of the "upper caste" in the Varna (colour) system.
Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would
have lived a charmed life istead of the piteously precarious
lot that, with the exception of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been
has predominatly dogged them.

_________________________________________________________________
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goanet-admin
2005-02-07 04:20:52 UTC
Permalink
<Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would have lived a
charmed life istead of the piteously precarious lot that, with the exception
of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly dogged them.>




Of course with this new "system" that Goanet admin has instituted - I don't
know to whom I am responding.

All power and glory to their brilliance.


Anyway ......

by 'anglos' - I trust you mean Anglo-Indians....right? ...because true
Anglos are Full Brits.

No idea how many 'mestizos' and 'anglo-indians' you have met or known.

I trust that you know the difference between FULL WHITE and NOT FULL WHITE

As in the US and in the UK ..... like among Indian Brahmins ......pure is
pure!

Also try ascertain WHO contribute to the non-WHITE component in
Anglo-Indians and Mestizos

NOT Brahmins or Kshatriyas.

hey......even if a blue blooded "Brahmin" were to have a child with a
"Sudra" ...... and that child was WHITE as Afghan Snow ..... that child was
a "Sudra" ! (Please read Manu)

Now..... to WHOM did I reply?

sincerely

jose colaco
zoncar de Carabolim

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goanet-admin
2005-02-07 22:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mario:
Thanks for reading my post on this thread and responding to it. From
your past posts and views on this subject, you are far from being an
apologist about caste attitudes among Goans. In fact, one could describe
you as very hostile to anyone who may demonstrate an inclination to
caste considerations as your post below and others suggest.

Yet, in your response and other posts, you have never claimed the
existence of casteism in the Goa's Catholic Church in the period you
grew up (and since) in Goa and Bombay. I hope Cornell who spent much of
his life in East Africa and England will learn from you (and me) -
individuals who were a lot closer to round zero. Now if some native
Goans can provide statistics and factual patterns of behavior (not
isolated instances, personal grudges or preconceptions), that may bring
all of us up to speed on a subject that so far has raised more heat than
light.

But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary. Perhaps Goa Sudharop can help channel the
tax-free contribution to this worthwhile cause. I wonder if George Pinto
of California (who has also expressed an opinion on this subject) is
reading this.

Now to the issue of individuals inquiring about caste at the time of
marriage. I would submit to you that THIS DOES OCCUR. Now if that is the
only factor that people (parents) take into consideration, then a
prospective recipient should be happy that they did not receive a soirik
from this family. Because this is likely a very narrow-minded family and
the new in-law especially from Canada would be better-off not having
anything to do with these types.

On the other hand, inquiries about caste can also one of very many many
questions one asks about an individual. I would call it 'due
diligence'. Should not one inquire about education, job, place of
residence, school, college, personal habits, family background etc. and
may even be good looks. Someone who does not have an attribute may
complain equally loud about any of these inquiries. Now no one is
perfect. All individuals are a balance. And to feel diffident for lack
of an attribute is really a sign of (lack of) self-confidence and
self-worth.

In fact at an interview for a new job, one inquires about all and sundry
- pleasant and unpleasant things about the employer and employee. Would
not your curiosity interest you about the ethnic background of your
employers, employees, co-workers or clients? Is there something wrong
with that? Would you take or turn down the job just on that single
factor - NO soiree! If you do, then it will be your loss.

Finally a single guy explained why he was not married.
Questioner: Why you are not married?
He said: I am waiting for the prefect girl.
Questioner: So did you not find any?
He said: Yes I did find a few.
Questioner: So what happened?
He said: They wanted the perfect guy.
Regards Gilbert

Mario adds his 2 cents:
My personal experience is that many Catholic Goans still have a strong
preference for their "own caste" when it comes to their children's
marriage partners, to the extent that there are still children who go
along with this stuff in India or in the Diaspora.

I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage where the issue
of caste is relevant among Catholic Goans.

Gilbert:
Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last statement. Please be
sure to draw a cause and effect relation. No long explanations needed!

Cornel:
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at
least, desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business
was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So
let me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic
Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done.
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 02:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Something strange is happening on Goanet recently.
All the posts are being identified as being from
goanet-admin at goanet.org, and not from the poster. For
example, the attached post is a comment in response to
something that Dr. Jose Colaco posted, but we can't
tell who it's from????
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]RE: Goans and Caste
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically
becomes one of the "upper caste" in the Varna
(colour) system.
Unidentified Poster??? comments
Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and
'anglos' would have lived a charmed life istead of
the piteously precarious lot that, with the exception
of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly
dogged them.
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goanet-admin
2005-02-08 02:18:20 UTC
Permalink
A few questions:

1. How far is Porto from Lisbon by car?
2. Is there a direct train from Lisbon airport to central Porto?
3. Any Goan organization in Porto?
4. Any Goan function in either Lisbon or Porto from Mar 26 - Apr 2?

Please reply to georgejpinto at yahoo.com

Thanks,
George Pinto
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
In fact, one could describe you as very hostile to
anyone who may demonstrate an inclination to caste
considerations as your post below and others suggest.
Mario clarifies:
Gilbert, I am not hostile to "anyone" personally, but
militantly and fundamentally opposed to any concept
that forms opinions and takes actions for or against
someone based on factors which they had nothing to do
with, rather than on their personal achievements and
the content of their character. Thus I oppose the
caste system, period, and even more so among
Catholics, where it goes against every tenet of
Christianity. I have seen far too many very good
people and families devastated by such discriminatory
thinking regardless of how the perpetrators choose to
sugar-coat it.
Post by goanet-admin
Yet, in your response and other posts, you have
never claimed the existence of casteism in the Goa's
Catholic Church in the period you grew up (and since)
in Goa and Bombay. I hope Cornell who spent much of
his life in East Africa and England will learn from
you (and me) - individuals who were a lot closer to
round zero. Now if some native Goans can provide
statistics and factual patterns of behavior (not
isolated instances, personal grudges or pre-
conceptions), that may bring all of us up to speed on
a subject that so far has raised more heat than
light.
Mario clarifies:
I grew up in Jabalpur where there were few Goans and
so Goan Catholic casteism was rarely talked about. I
have never lived in Goa and have never discussed
casteism with any Catholic priest anywhere in the
context of the Catholic Church. I took it for granted
that they would be against the caste system. The term
"Catholic caste" is an oxymoron, as someone said
recently, and I would denounce any Catholic priest who
did not denounce the continuing practice of casteism
among Catholics.

I categorically denounce the necessity and reality of
Dalit parishes in Kerala because Dalits are not
welcome in "upper-caste" Catholic parishes, and I
would do the same with regard to any parish in Goa
that discrimintated against anyone based on their
"caste" or color or any other basis other than their
personal behavior.

I don't see how statistics would affect any of this.
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 07:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Solly, ol' boy, it was I .....chuk zalli, matar? zatam re saiba... senility,
decreptitude creeps in; foward-leaping G-net leaps away, leaving the age
challenged to challenge age...

Alfred Methuselah
From: "jose colaco" <colaco_2 at hotmail.com>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: RE: Goans and Caste again
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 00:35:51 +0000
<Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would have lived a
charmed life istead of the piteously precarious lot that, with the
exception of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly dogged them.
goanet-admin
2005-02-09 02:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by goanet-admin
But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary.
The issue is not a lack of funding. The Goa Church is one of Goa's richest institutions
(approximately 165 parishes, schools, etc.). It has the money to fund seminarians. The issue is
whether there is a will among church authorities and the laity to end the caste system practiced
by some Goan Catholics.

On a somewhat related issue, there is no lack of vocations/priests in India, over 1,000 are
ordained every year and Indian priests continue to be "exported" to places like the USA, Canada,
and some parts of Europe where there is a shortage. The Asian, African, Latin American Catholic
markets are the fastest growing in the world. However, they have little to show for it at the
Vatican which is run mostly by Europeans - brown and black people doing the hard work while the
honors are reserved for Europeans. Most unfortunate.

Regards,
George Pinto
goanet-admin
2005-02-11 05:02:32 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
No more excuses!
Raise the money!
Offer it DIRECTLY TO THE LOWER CASTE CATHOLIC Goans who desire to join
the seminary but cannot afford it.
Let's see if there are any Givers and Takers.
It can't get any simpler.
Regards indifference of Europeans to Goan/Asian saints. Please tell us:
How the Goan community, under your leadership, celebrated the Feast of
Blessed Joseph in California? Did not see any posts before or after the
fest.
Thanks, Regards.

Jose Colaco:
Well said George. And Catholics who normally make a big spiel about
"cafeteria Catholicism" may wish to understand very clearly that:

1. The Caste System is contrary to Christianity
2. That the Death Penalty is contrary to the Commandment which says -
Thou
Shalt NOT kill.

George Pinto:
The issue is not a lack of funding... The issue is whether there is a
will
among church authorities and the laity to end the caste system practiced
by
some Goan Catholics>

Gilbert Lawrence:
But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary>
George Pinto
2005-02-14 04:45:55 UTC
Permalink
This is a response to Gilbert's two recent emails on caste and Goans. I had chosen to ignore the
first one, but when fiction is repeated, it deserves a response at least to get some basic facts
right.........

Either Gilbert does not think through the issues or ignores the facts or is in haste or his logic
does not serve him well. His respones have been pretty lame of late and does not do credit to his
ability.

1. I would like to know what HE did to celebrate the Blessed Vaz feast (it is important not to
throw stones at others from a glass house). Yes, it was celebrated individually by supporters
here (in fact there is a long history of such activity which I do not care to repeat).
Additionally, everytime something is done it does not need to be reported in Goan cyberspace and
splashed several times across the lists (this is not World Goa Day). As far as the world-wide
Goan community and Goan associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to the
Euro-centric, and servient role to colonial history and European saints. If they cannot step out
from their second-class past, don't ask me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my
time to help them. If they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine. Additionally, I
am not President of the Goan Association (I was in 1990-2001). I am active in Goa Sudharop but
hardly consider my myself a leader in the Goan community, others are doing a better job.
Additionally, Goa Sudharop by its mission is non-religious and non-political (hence you won't see
religious or politcal events scheduled and announced).

2. As far as caste goes, Gilbert is again confused (more than his normal confusion). The issue
once again is not a lack of funds or lack of Dalit seminarians or whatever bogus issue Gilbert
introduces, but the discrimatory practice of the caste system practiced by some in the Catholic
church heirarchy and by some laity. He suggested earlier it does not exist because he has not
experienced it. This is the same "head in sand" approach as the sex abuse issue by priests. The
caste system has to be solved collectively. I have done my bit by pointing it out and I am not
willing to do more at this point. It is MY CHOICE how I spend my time and money and sometimes some
good causes do not get the attention they deserve. Perhaps Gilbert can pick up the slack.

Please don't waste my time having to respond to fairytale emails. I learnt from my experience in
2000 (specifically with respect to the Blessed Vaz issue) that most cybergoans will waste time
emailing, rather than actually doing something. I am not willing to go down that path again.

The problem with Gilbert and others like him who are defensive about the Church, is they have
never had an activist bent, never been in a protest or demonstration or fought for justice. They
do not identify or understand some of the injustices that do exist in the Catholic Church or in
society at large. It makes them uncomfortable when others point it out. They prefer to sweep it
under the carpet or deny it exists. Their response is to hide under the Church skirts and become
defensive.

Please take time to understand without wasting my time. I do not see my role here as educative.

Regards,
George
Very good questions. Perhaps they need to be answered by those who make
or allege these situations. I was merely suggesting ways these folks
could solve their concerns themselves - Not relying on someone else to
address their distress. Aum appurbaen rautam to hear about the
celebrations of Goans on Jan 16, for the feast of Blessed Joseph Vaz
across the Goan Diaspora.
What are you suggesting my friend? That there are "lower caste" Catholic
Goans who desire to join the seminary but do not because they cannot
afford it? Is that what you are saying?
May I ask .... on what basis .....you maketh that statement? Is there a
fee for joining the seminary in Goa? Something new happened while I was
out to dinner?
<No more excuses! Raise the money!
Offer it DIRECTLY TO THE LOWER CASTE CATHOLIC Goans who desire to join
the seminary but cannot afford it.
Let's see if there are any Givers and Takers.
It can't get any simpler.>
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-15 23:55:54 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
George is welcome to ignore this post! However other cyberGoans should
not be denied the analysis. To begin with, let me apologize for his
outburst. I also apologize for the logic escaping GP about Blessed
Joseph Vaz - the Patron Saint of Goa. People do get 'hot under the
collar' when their long essays are shown for what they are, and perhaps
their ego's deflated.

The reason why I brought up the celebration of Blessed Joseph Vaz feast
in the Goan Diasporas is because there are Goans (no names please) that
claim (off all things) white racial discrimination in not celebrating
Goan saints by the supposedly 'white Catholic Church'. So I see the N.
California Goans did not have a celebration for their own patron Goan
saint. I am amused by "celebrated individually by his supporters.":=))
So, now is it that 'White Catholics' discriminate and 'Brown Catholics'
show prejudice too? How about Catholics are not being too religious?
:=)) In fact it is my understanding that the N. California Goans did not
even jointly celebrate the feast of SFX last year on / around December
3. Perhaps the SFX feast was "celebrated individually by his
supporters."

I didn't see this 'individual celebration' among Goans for Christmas and
New Year which is the biggest Western influence (Emperor Constantine's
carry-over of the pagan mid-winter festivity) in the world. In fact the
Goan cruise-gala in San Francisco bay (with multiple postings on cyber
Goa) or similar activity could have been done two weeks later to honor
the Goan Patron Saint.

So Senhor / Shri Pinto and others, please practice what you preach. Of
course it is difficult to promote upholding Goan cultural practices when
Goan cultural symbols are being repeatedly crushed. I hope one finds
logic in this statement and this should not be too difficult to
understand. :=)) On a note of total agreement with GP, Goan culture in
the Diaspora needs urgent attention.

Be my guest in Utica, NY, and see the Italians (from the East Coast of
USA and Canada) celebrate the feast of Saints Cosmos and Damian with
street procession of statues, band, rosary and hymns ani magir mass in
Italian. This is after coming to this country more than 100 years ago.
Regards, GL, Utica, NY.

George Pinto: (N. California)
Yes, it was celebrated individually by supporters here (in fact there is
a long history of such activity which I do not care to repeat).
Additionally, every time something is done it does not need to be
reported in Goan cyberspace and splashed several times across the lists
(this is not World Goa Day). As far as the world-wide Goan community
and Goan associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to
the Euro-centric, and servient role to colonial history and European
saints. If they cannot step out from their second-class past, don't ask
me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my time to help
them. If they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine.
George Pinto
2005-02-16 04:05:21 UTC
Permalink
I think Gilbert is blinded by computer glare as he reads the posts. There is no other explanation
for his inane responses, without basic logic. See his responses to my original post.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The reason why I brought up the celebration of Blessed Joseph Vaz feast
in the Goan Diasporas is because there are Goans (no names please) that
claim (off all things) white racial discrimination in not celebrating
Goan saints by the supposedly 'white Catholic Church'.
This is what I (George) originally wrote "As far as the world-wide Goan community and Goan
associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to the Euro-centric, and servient
role to colonial history and European saints. If they cannot step out from their second-class
past, don't ask me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my time to help them. If
they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine." It is clear my point is Goans
themselves have ignored to celebrate Blessed Vaz on a large scale - of course, the Vatican has
helped. The blame for the lack of Blessed Vaz support lies with Goan Catholics, including the Goan
Catholic church, and the Vatican shares some of the blame too. Don't blame the Joseph Naik Vaz
Institute which are one of the few who ACTUALLY did something. I also think Gilbert is confusing
(nothing new!) the Joseph Naik Vaz Institute with Goa Sudharop, two separate organizations. Also
Gilbert has again not mentioned how HE celebrated the Blessed Vaz feast or how NY Goans celebrated
it. Not that Gilbert is responsible for NY Goans and what they do any more than I am responsible
for Northern California Goans and what they do. But that is his silly logic.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Gilbert wrote....
In fact the Goan cruise-gala in San Francisco bay (with multiple postings on cyber
Goa) or similar activity could have been done two weeks later to honor
the Goan Patron Saint.
The above is borderline idiocy. First of all, Goa Sudharop is a non-profit and as I mentioned in
my prior post, cannot engage in religious or political activities (both its mission and IRS
regulations do not permit it). Goa Sudharop CANNOT celebrate a religious feast like Blessed Vaz.
Goa Sudharop and the Joseph Naik Vaz Institute are two separate organizations. Comprehende
Gilbert? For Gilbert's benefit, one more time - Goa Sudharop CANNOT celebrate a religious feast
like Blessed Vaz. Goa Sudharop and the Joseph Naik Vaz Institute are two separate organizations.
Comprehende Gilbert?

Gilbert, please read the posts several times and take time to understand. It might help. A famous
Goan world-class oncologist should not write without logic, facts, or sense and waste people's
time.

So Gilbert, what did YOU do to celebrate the Blessed Vaz feast and promote his cause?

Regards,
George
Mario Goveia
2005-02-21 20:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Being on vacation and blessedly losing the thread of
this discussion, I am trying to figure out how a
debate about the diabolical caste system and the
obvious contradiction between this ancient social
stratification of Hindu society and the teachings of
Christ, who preached that all human beings were equal
in the eyes of God, has descended into a stone
throwing contest between two blue states in the US
trying to claim some sort of moral superiority based
on celebrating the feasts of selected saints. SAINTS,
for crying out loud!!!

Do we have the bull by the tail here, folks? After
all, aren't saints simply exemplary people whose lives
and works have been formally recognized by the Church?
No more, no less?

Are we C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N-S or S-A-I-N-T-I-A-N-S? Is
it even important or logical to go overboard to
celebrate ANY saint? Remember and honor them? Yes.
Learn from them? Certainly. Ask them to intercede on
our behalf because they are already in heaven? Can't
hurt. But to go any further? Think about it.
Post by George Pinto
I think Gilbert is blinded by computer glare as he
reads the posts. There is no other explanation
for his inane responses, without basic logic. See
his responses to my original post.
--- Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The reason why I brought up the celebration of
Blessed Joseph Vaz feast
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
in the Goan Diasporas is because there are Goans
(no names please) that
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
claim (off all things) white racial discrimination
in not celebrating
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Goan saints by the supposedly 'white Catholic
Church'.
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-23 02:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,
So very nice to hear from you.
By all means you can take full credit for that compliment.
You were the only one who stood there and carried on a civil and
educational (for both of us and others) dialogue on Goa's Inquisition
from which we all learnt.
You did not feel defensive and ....
There was nothing defensive for either of us to be anxious about.

I wish all our dialogues especially the one we are having on Goans and
caste could be so enlightening.
It can only be so if there are facts - that are either there or not
there;
And we then know definitely what occurs or did not occur and not some
else's outlook or (mis) representation of the events.

In fact today I was reading about Goa. I came across a reference of how
the same dish in Goa is cooked differently and taste differently in
Goa's different castes. Can you and / or someone enlighten me if this is
true?
I am always willing to learn - the facts. Growing up in Bombay, I know
for a fact that 'the same dish' is fixed differently and taste
differently when fixed by a Goan compared to a Mangalorean or East
Indian. I will not go into which tastes better, because that would not
be a fact. :=)):=))

Regards, GL


Santosh Helekar
This is becoming like the thread about the Inquisition in Goa.
Everybody and his mother-in-law had strong views on the Inquisition.
When we ask for facts and statistics, it was DE NADA - SILENCE,
except for Dr. Santosh Helekar.
Santosh:
Gilbert has been giving me a lot of good publicity lately. I want to
thank him for this yet another good deed.
Gilbert, Can I publicise your above compliment as your acknowledgement
of my good deed? I don't have very many good deeds to my credit.
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-23 07:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You were the only one who stood there and carried on
a >civil and educational (for both of us and others)
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
dialogue on Goa's Inquisition from which we all
learnt. You did not feel defensive and ....
................................................................
I wish all our dialogues especially the one we are
having on Goans and caste could be so enlightening.
Stop it, Gilbert! You are embarrassing me. I am not
accustomed to this type of praise in public. If you
continue this any further, I would have to quit this
forum. You need to learn how to be self-righteous and
abusive.

But I have got to hand it to you. You are impervious
to criticism and sarcasm, and that is definitely a
good thing on a mailing list.

Cheers,

Santosh
cornel
2005-02-02 16:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert,
In response to your posts, please note that Jose Colaco and I had merely
pointed out that Caste and Class are altogether different and oppositional
concepts. Further, it was implied that some Catholic Goan casteists try to
blur the difference between the two with the hope that such subterfuge will
not be noticed. Unfortunately for them, there are too many smarter Goans
(and not Johnny come lately types as you imply) who can take on any casteist
apologist today, primarily because of education, and professional and class
status in a globalised world.

On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at least,
desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So let
me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done. My grandparents and
their generations before them, intuitively knew that casteism was absolute
hogwash. Nevertheless, they were intimidated and undermined by the hegemonic
casteists in Goa. Unfortunately, my forebears did not have the education nor
skills to take on the casteists and their hegemony. However, I am ever so
glad that I can now do this, with absolute relish and confidence,
especially, in targeting contemporary Catholic Goan casteists wherever they
may appear. Now, can you possibly have a problem with my stance? Do you
want an historically oppressed people to suddenly suffer an attack of
amnesia? Not on your Nellie my friend!

Secondly, Catholic Goan casteism was taken beyond Goa, and across the waters
to places like East Africa with much enthusiasm by a thoroughly disgusting
casteist lot. Their hegemony lasted, pretty triumphantly, for them, upto
about three decades ago and still persists there but not with its former
intensity. Instead it has tried to root itself in the UK, Canada, USA and
other places in more recent times. However, it is my earnest hope that it
is today fighting a losing battle in London, Toronto, Melbourne, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, New Jersey/New York and (believe you me) even in
Oslo! And this is, particularly paradoxically, among people who should know
better through education but have been unable to discard what they absorbed,
very early on, through their mothers' milk. We know this because strident
anti-castists, like me, keep our ears to the ground and know exactly what is
going on. Yet, we are pleased when we hear former casteists accept and state
that Catholic Goan casteism is and has always been totally indefensible. All
I therefore personally seek, Gilbert, is this form of coming out, rather
than the absurdity of some die-hard fellow Goans trying to be defensive
about casteism in this day and age.

In sum, it is my firm belief that it is not by running away from evil that
we overcome it, but by going to meet it. Brown racism aka casteism among
Catholic Goans, in all its manifestations, has to be met head on in the Goan
Diaspora, and simultaneously, but bit by bit in Goa itself.
Cornel DaCosta (London)
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-05 06:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Goans and Caste - Getting Hot Under the Collar

Hi Cornell:
I have waited to the weekend to respond to your post. The weekend gives
us the writers and the readers more time to digest this topic. It may
also be a welcome break for the native Goans who must be overdosed
reading stories of the machinations of the Goa government. Thanks for
responding to my post. You have raised many points. With your
indulgence, I am replying to you point by point, which I usually dislike
doing. I am truly trying to learn from your experiences and hopefully
you can educate me/us with specifics.

Cornel:
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at
least,
desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business was a
thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So
let
me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done.

GL responds: Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last
statement. Please be sure to draw a cause and effect relation. No long
explanations needed!

Cornel:
My grandparents and their generations before them, intuitively knew that
casteism was absolute hogwash. Nevertheless, they were intimidated and
undermined by the hegemonic casteists in Goa. Unfortunately, my
forebears did not have the education nor skills to take on the casteists
and their hegemony. However, I am ever so glad that I can now do this,
with absolute relish and confidence, especially, in targeting
contemporary Catholic Goan casteists wherever they may appear. Now, can
you possibly have a problem with my stance? Do you want an historically
oppressed people to suddenly suffer an attack of amnesia? Not on your
Nellie my friend!

GL responds: You are fighting yesterday's battles today. You are more
likely engaged in verbal fencing with 'shadows of the past'. Of course,
You look mighty good!

Cornel:
Secondly, Catholic Goan casteism was taken beyond Goa, and across the
waters
to places like East Africa with much enthusiasm by a thoroughly
disgusting
casteist lot. Their hegemony lasted, pretty triumphantly, for them, upto

about three decades ago and still persists there but not with its
former
intensity. Instead it has tried to root itself in the UK, Canada, USA
and
other places in more recent times. However, it is my earnest hope that
it
is today fighting a losing battle in London, Toronto, Melbourne, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, New Jersey/New York and (believe you me) even in

Oslo!

GL responds: I will tend to agree with you on this; given the many
'social get-together' divisions in the Goan community seen in large
Diaspora. But still this is not a cause and effect relation. Goans in
Diaspora shun people from their own caste. They seek instead individuals
with common legacy, which may be, they are sure of their caste. That is
why I asked you the question how do you target the population group that
you desire to change? Do you single out all folks from East Africa,
which you identified in your first line of the above paragraph and you
growing up there originally are familiar with them? Is this post copied
to all the East African Goan mailing lists? Or are you preaching to the
choir?

Cornel:
And this is, particularly paradoxically, among people who should know
better through education but have been unable to discard what they
absorbed,
very early on, through their mothers' milk. We know this because
strident
anti-casteists, like me, keep our ears to the ground and know exactly
what is going on.

GL responds: I am sure your 'ears are to the ground' in many places. If
your sources are from Goanet, the same posts that I read, then you are
'hearing some blowing in the wind'.:=)) Because all I read on two major
mailing lists are theories (about caste discrimination) with no specific
examples. Unless of course you are implying that the rude posts that I
receive, sometimes from my own village folks, are casteist in nature and
I am just 'not astute enough to get it'.:=)) Cheeze I thought they were
....:=))

Cornel:
Yet, we are pleased when we hear former casteists accept and state
that Catholic Goan casteism is and has always been totally indefensible.


GL responds: Who are these former casteists? I did not see much support
from you and others (including JC) when I condemned the use of Alcunha
(remember the thread on Professora, Professorachem ghor, cheddo etc.)
where today's Johnny-come-lately(s) rest on the laurels of their
ancestors. Thus in the process some of them do a disservice to
themselves (by being lazy) and to other Goans who were not born with 'a
silver spoon in their mouth'. Yes... Yes... I know you were very
busy...! :=)) Most of the Brahmins were not born with a silver spoon in
their mouth. So I would not accuse the opposition on that thread as
being 'Brown racism aka casteism'. I would merely term them defending a
practice which was a part of Goan feudal society, and their own relic,
which today we Goans can do without. That was my 'take-home message' and
hopefully well received.

Cornel:
All I therefore personally seek, Gilbert, is this form of coming out,
rather
than the absurdity of some die-hard fellow Goans trying to be defensive
about casteism in this day and age.

GL responds: Again please show me practice of specific casteism in THIS
DAY AND AGE. I know I 'can be thick' on observing this aspect of Goan
culture.

Cornel:
In sum, it is my firm belief that it is not by running away from evil
that
we overcome it, but by going to meet it. Brown racism aka casteism among

Catholic Goans, in all its manifestations, has to be met head on in the
Goan
Diaspora, and simultaneously, but bit by bit in Goa itself.

GL responds: All power to you my friend. Please provide us examples in
action like a lower-caste Goan get-together at the Royal Dorchester in
London. In my mind you fight caste by lifting the lower caste up ... and
... real up!

As you live in London, perhaps you have changed things. But if not, why
don't you have a 'reception group' of Goans to welcome and help new Goan
immigrants to London and UK. The migrants are 'outsiders' on whose
behalf you are waging a worthy battle. In my three years in London in
the mid '70s, I was invited to one GOA function even though I had met a
few Goans in that city. I did not know GOA (London) existed.

So as a prominent Goan in London and UK you could do a lot to help
eradicate brown-racism by example rather than words. Again you may be
doing it. So why don't you write posts on how established-Goans in
London help Goan new-arrivals to the UK, other lower caste and lower
class Goan ganv-bhavs and ganv-bhoinis get on their feet? (like the
Sikhs, Patels, Parsees and Jews). And this could be repeated in all Goan
Diasporas that do not have this support. After-all you don't want Goans,
thirty years from now, writing about Goans in London etc., in the 21st
Century (a.k.a. you and me) in effect practiced brown-racism. Don't you
think that would be a worthwhile effort to address in practice on 'caste
or class among Goans'? It's not likely that Goans who NEED PRACTICAL
HELP TODAY will be consoled and satisfied with 'getting hot under the
collar' and excuse you and me for our yeomen work in our 'academic ivory
towers'. Regards.
Mario Goveia
2005-02-05 18:15:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by cornel
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to
suggest, or at least, desperately want to believe,
that all this evil caste business was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is
limited to a few. So let me provide you a brief
response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always
done.
Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last
statement. Please be sure to draw a cause and effect
relation. No long explanations needed!

Mario adds his 2 cents:
My personal experience is that many Catholic Goans
still have a strong preference for their "own caste"
when it comes to their children's marriage partners,
to the extent that there are still children who go
along with this stuff in India or in the diaspora.

We have actually gotten calls from Catholic Goans who
live in India, Canada, the UK and the US who will call
and ask us about a certain young man or woman we may
know and the caste issue has often come up, sometimes
overtly and sometime in subtle ways like wanting to
know which village in Goa the family is from. They
never call back after my 15 minute tirade asking them
to first make up their minds whether they are
Catholics or not before asking us such questions.

I personally know a family in India where one son
married a very accomplished girl from another caste,
and she is not welcome in the parent's house, even
after over 5 years of marriage. Another son has
married within their caste and is welcome. These
hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's wife, WHO
IS EUROPEAN. They made the mistake of calling me to
inquire about someone for another one of their
children, and needless to say, after I was done with
them, we are no longer on speaking terms.

I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage
where the issue of caste is relevent among Catholic
Goans.
jose colaco
2005-02-05 20:36:13 UTC
Permalink
From: Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>

<I personally know a family in India where one son married a very
accomplished girl from another caste, and she is not welcome in the parent's
house, even after over 5 years of marriage.>

< Another son has married within their caste and is welcome.>

< These hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's wife, WHO IS EUROPEAN.>

<I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage where the issue of
caste is relevent among Catholic Goans.>





I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes one of the "upper caste" in
the Varna (colour) system.

It is not restricted to Catholic Goans ....even though the term "Catholic
caste" is an oxymoron.

Almost like a Compassionate Rightie or Leftie ! (what sez Mario ?)


There is a strong belief based on DNA studies that the Chitpawan Brahmins
like Tilak, Damle et al are Jews from EUROPE. ( CD of studies available
online from Dr. Jagannath Dixit )

Besides, not much is known of the Chitpawans until 500 years ago.

...... another Parshuram Arrow story (perhaps)

I am of the opinion that this thing called "caste" is NOT as important
during marriage among educated Catholic Goans in Goa & the rest of India
....as it is among Catholic Goans who live abroad.

It is present ....but not as much when compared to NRGs

It also is there within the Catholic Church! of that - I am quite sure. In
the 2002 synod, it was recommended that each parish should have ONE
confraria with ONE dress code. Doubt that has come into uniform effect yet.

I suppose this separation plays right into the Swadeshi project - especially
as it was never ever abolished within the Church.


jc

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goanet-admin
2005-02-06 07:06:40 UTC
Permalink
Jose Colaco <colaco_2 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Mario wrote:
These hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's
wife, WHO IS EUROPEAN.>
Post by jose colaco
<I am not aware of any circumstance other than
marriage where the issue of caste is relevent among
Catholic Goans.>
Post by jose colaco
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes
one of the "upper caste" in the Varna (colour) system.
Post by jose colaco
It is not restricted to Catholic Goans ....even
though the term "Catholic caste" is an oxymoron.
Almost like a Compassionate Rightie or Leftie !
(what sez Mario ?)
Mario sez:
Jose, I can tell you that accepting an European D-I-L
and rejecting an Indian D-I-L, regardless of their
relative complexions, does not dilute or enhance the
hypocrisy of the family I mentioned. They are still
world-class hypocrites.

Second, there is a good reason why I did not mention
non-Catholic Goans, and that is that the section of
the discussion between Cornel and Gilbert in which I
intervened was restricted to Catholic Goans. In my
opinion, mentioning non-Catholic Goans did not fir in
and would have only complicated the discussion. Yes,
"Catholic caste" is an oxymoron at the theoretical
level but not in the real world where it is very much
a fact of life.
Post by jose colaco
I am of the opinion that this thing called "caste"
is NOT as important during marriage among educated
Catholic Goans in Goa & the rest of India ....as it is
among Catholic Goans who live abroad.
Post by jose colaco
It is present ....but not as much when compared to
NRGs.
Mario replies:
I understand that that is your opinion. However,
whether your opinion fits the facts or not is what
this dialog is all about. In my opinion, based on the
limited sample of calls I have received, it is just as
prevalent among Goans in Goa as with Goans in India
but outside Goa, and as with NRGs, whether educated or
not.
Jose says:
It also is there within the Catholic Church! of that
- I am quite sure. In the 2002 synod, it was
recommended that each parish should have ONE
confraria with ONE dress code. Doubt that has come
into uniform effect yet.
Post by jose colaco
I suppose this separation plays right into the
Swadeshi project - especially as it was never ever
abolished within the Church.

Mario replies:
I have no idea whether the official "Catholic Church"
in Goa has anything to do with caste, and I don't see
how any Catholic Church can support the apartheit that
the caste system is similar to, and still claim to be
Catholic.

However, I am aware that in Kerala there are separate
Catholic Churches and parishes for Dalits, and Dalits
do not attend the "upper caste" Catholic Churches,
which is an abominable and despicable situation in my
opinion.
goanet-admin
2005-02-06 22:35:20 UTC
Permalink
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]RE: Goans and Caste
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes
one of the "upper caste" in the Varna (colour) system.
Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would
have lived a charmed life istead of the piteously precarious
lot that, with the exception of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been
has predominatly dogged them.

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goanet-admin
2005-02-07 04:20:52 UTC
Permalink
<Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would have lived a
charmed life istead of the piteously precarious lot that, with the exception
of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly dogged them.>




Of course with this new "system" that Goanet admin has instituted - I don't
know to whom I am responding.

All power and glory to their brilliance.


Anyway ......

by 'anglos' - I trust you mean Anglo-Indians....right? ...because true
Anglos are Full Brits.

No idea how many 'mestizos' and 'anglo-indians' you have met or known.

I trust that you know the difference between FULL WHITE and NOT FULL WHITE

As in the US and in the UK ..... like among Indian Brahmins ......pure is
pure!

Also try ascertain WHO contribute to the non-WHITE component in
Anglo-Indians and Mestizos

NOT Brahmins or Kshatriyas.

hey......even if a blue blooded "Brahmin" were to have a child with a
"Sudra" ...... and that child was WHITE as Afghan Snow ..... that child was
a "Sudra" ! (Please read Manu)

Now..... to WHOM did I reply?

sincerely

jose colaco
zoncar de Carabolim

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goanet-admin
2005-02-07 22:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mario:
Thanks for reading my post on this thread and responding to it. From
your past posts and views on this subject, you are far from being an
apologist about caste attitudes among Goans. In fact, one could describe
you as very hostile to anyone who may demonstrate an inclination to
caste considerations as your post below and others suggest.

Yet, in your response and other posts, you have never claimed the
existence of casteism in the Goa's Catholic Church in the period you
grew up (and since) in Goa and Bombay. I hope Cornell who spent much of
his life in East Africa and England will learn from you (and me) -
individuals who were a lot closer to round zero. Now if some native
Goans can provide statistics and factual patterns of behavior (not
isolated instances, personal grudges or preconceptions), that may bring
all of us up to speed on a subject that so far has raised more heat than
light.

But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary. Perhaps Goa Sudharop can help channel the
tax-free contribution to this worthwhile cause. I wonder if George Pinto
of California (who has also expressed an opinion on this subject) is
reading this.

Now to the issue of individuals inquiring about caste at the time of
marriage. I would submit to you that THIS DOES OCCUR. Now if that is the
only factor that people (parents) take into consideration, then a
prospective recipient should be happy that they did not receive a soirik
from this family. Because this is likely a very narrow-minded family and
the new in-law especially from Canada would be better-off not having
anything to do with these types.

On the other hand, inquiries about caste can also one of very many many
questions one asks about an individual. I would call it 'due
diligence'. Should not one inquire about education, job, place of
residence, school, college, personal habits, family background etc. and
may even be good looks. Someone who does not have an attribute may
complain equally loud about any of these inquiries. Now no one is
perfect. All individuals are a balance. And to feel diffident for lack
of an attribute is really a sign of (lack of) self-confidence and
self-worth.

In fact at an interview for a new job, one inquires about all and sundry
- pleasant and unpleasant things about the employer and employee. Would
not your curiosity interest you about the ethnic background of your
employers, employees, co-workers or clients? Is there something wrong
with that? Would you take or turn down the job just on that single
factor - NO soiree! If you do, then it will be your loss.

Finally a single guy explained why he was not married.
Questioner: Why you are not married?
He said: I am waiting for the prefect girl.
Questioner: So did you not find any?
He said: Yes I did find a few.
Questioner: So what happened?
He said: They wanted the perfect guy.
Regards Gilbert

Mario adds his 2 cents:
My personal experience is that many Catholic Goans still have a strong
preference for their "own caste" when it comes to their children's
marriage partners, to the extent that there are still children who go
along with this stuff in India or in the Diaspora.

I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage where the issue
of caste is relevant among Catholic Goans.

Gilbert:
Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last statement. Please be
sure to draw a cause and effect relation. No long explanations needed!

Cornel:
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at
least, desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business
was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So
let me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic
Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done.
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 02:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Something strange is happening on Goanet recently.
All the posts are being identified as being from
goanet-admin at goanet.org, and not from the poster. For
example, the attached post is a comment in response to
something that Dr. Jose Colaco posted, but we can't
tell who it's from????
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]RE: Goans and Caste
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically
becomes one of the "upper caste" in the Varna
(colour) system.
Unidentified Poster??? comments
Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and
'anglos' would have lived a charmed life istead of
the piteously precarious lot that, with the exception
of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly
dogged them.
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goanet-admin
2005-02-08 02:18:20 UTC
Permalink
A few questions:

1. How far is Porto from Lisbon by car?
2. Is there a direct train from Lisbon airport to central Porto?
3. Any Goan organization in Porto?
4. Any Goan function in either Lisbon or Porto from Mar 26 - Apr 2?

Please reply to georgejpinto at yahoo.com

Thanks,
George Pinto
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
In fact, one could describe you as very hostile to
anyone who may demonstrate an inclination to caste
considerations as your post below and others suggest.
Mario clarifies:
Gilbert, I am not hostile to "anyone" personally, but
militantly and fundamentally opposed to any concept
that forms opinions and takes actions for or against
someone based on factors which they had nothing to do
with, rather than on their personal achievements and
the content of their character. Thus I oppose the
caste system, period, and even more so among
Catholics, where it goes against every tenet of
Christianity. I have seen far too many very good
people and families devastated by such discriminatory
thinking regardless of how the perpetrators choose to
sugar-coat it.
Post by goanet-admin
Yet, in your response and other posts, you have
never claimed the existence of casteism in the Goa's
Catholic Church in the period you grew up (and since)
in Goa and Bombay. I hope Cornell who spent much of
his life in East Africa and England will learn from
you (and me) - individuals who were a lot closer to
round zero. Now if some native Goans can provide
statistics and factual patterns of behavior (not
isolated instances, personal grudges or pre-
conceptions), that may bring all of us up to speed on
a subject that so far has raised more heat than
light.
Mario clarifies:
I grew up in Jabalpur where there were few Goans and
so Goan Catholic casteism was rarely talked about. I
have never lived in Goa and have never discussed
casteism with any Catholic priest anywhere in the
context of the Catholic Church. I took it for granted
that they would be against the caste system. The term
"Catholic caste" is an oxymoron, as someone said
recently, and I would denounce any Catholic priest who
did not denounce the continuing practice of casteism
among Catholics.

I categorically denounce the necessity and reality of
Dalit parishes in Kerala because Dalits are not
welcome in "upper-caste" Catholic parishes, and I
would do the same with regard to any parish in Goa
that discrimintated against anyone based on their
"caste" or color or any other basis other than their
personal behavior.

I don't see how statistics would affect any of this.
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 07:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Solly, ol' boy, it was I .....chuk zalli, matar? zatam re saiba... senility,
decreptitude creeps in; foward-leaping G-net leaps away, leaving the age
challenged to challenge age...

Alfred Methuselah
From: "jose colaco" <colaco_2 at hotmail.com>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: RE: Goans and Caste again
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 00:35:51 +0000
<Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would have lived a
charmed life istead of the piteously precarious lot that, with the
exception of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly dogged them.
goanet-admin
2005-02-09 02:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by goanet-admin
But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary.
The issue is not a lack of funding. The Goa Church is one of Goa's richest institutions
(approximately 165 parishes, schools, etc.). It has the money to fund seminarians. The issue is
whether there is a will among church authorities and the laity to end the caste system practiced
by some Goan Catholics.

On a somewhat related issue, there is no lack of vocations/priests in India, over 1,000 are
ordained every year and Indian priests continue to be "exported" to places like the USA, Canada,
and some parts of Europe where there is a shortage. The Asian, African, Latin American Catholic
markets are the fastest growing in the world. However, they have little to show for it at the
Vatican which is run mostly by Europeans - brown and black people doing the hard work while the
honors are reserved for Europeans. Most unfortunate.

Regards,
George Pinto
goanet-admin
2005-02-11 05:02:32 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
No more excuses!
Raise the money!
Offer it DIRECTLY TO THE LOWER CASTE CATHOLIC Goans who desire to join
the seminary but cannot afford it.
Let's see if there are any Givers and Takers.
It can't get any simpler.
Regards indifference of Europeans to Goan/Asian saints. Please tell us:
How the Goan community, under your leadership, celebrated the Feast of
Blessed Joseph in California? Did not see any posts before or after the
fest.
Thanks, Regards.

Jose Colaco:
Well said George. And Catholics who normally make a big spiel about
"cafeteria Catholicism" may wish to understand very clearly that:

1. The Caste System is contrary to Christianity
2. That the Death Penalty is contrary to the Commandment which says -
Thou
Shalt NOT kill.

George Pinto:
The issue is not a lack of funding... The issue is whether there is a
will
among church authorities and the laity to end the caste system practiced
by
some Goan Catholics>

Gilbert Lawrence:
But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary>
George Pinto
2005-02-14 04:45:55 UTC
Permalink
This is a response to Gilbert's two recent emails on caste and Goans. I had chosen to ignore the
first one, but when fiction is repeated, it deserves a response at least to get some basic facts
right.........

Either Gilbert does not think through the issues or ignores the facts or is in haste or his logic
does not serve him well. His respones have been pretty lame of late and does not do credit to his
ability.

1. I would like to know what HE did to celebrate the Blessed Vaz feast (it is important not to
throw stones at others from a glass house). Yes, it was celebrated individually by supporters
here (in fact there is a long history of such activity which I do not care to repeat).
Additionally, everytime something is done it does not need to be reported in Goan cyberspace and
splashed several times across the lists (this is not World Goa Day). As far as the world-wide
Goan community and Goan associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to the
Euro-centric, and servient role to colonial history and European saints. If they cannot step out
from their second-class past, don't ask me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my
time to help them. If they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine. Additionally, I
am not President of the Goan Association (I was in 1990-2001). I am active in Goa Sudharop but
hardly consider my myself a leader in the Goan community, others are doing a better job.
Additionally, Goa Sudharop by its mission is non-religious and non-political (hence you won't see
religious or politcal events scheduled and announced).

2. As far as caste goes, Gilbert is again confused (more than his normal confusion). The issue
once again is not a lack of funds or lack of Dalit seminarians or whatever bogus issue Gilbert
introduces, but the discrimatory practice of the caste system practiced by some in the Catholic
church heirarchy and by some laity. He suggested earlier it does not exist because he has not
experienced it. This is the same "head in sand" approach as the sex abuse issue by priests. The
caste system has to be solved collectively. I have done my bit by pointing it out and I am not
willing to do more at this point. It is MY CHOICE how I spend my time and money and sometimes some
good causes do not get the attention they deserve. Perhaps Gilbert can pick up the slack.

Please don't waste my time having to respond to fairytale emails. I learnt from my experience in
2000 (specifically with respect to the Blessed Vaz issue) that most cybergoans will waste time
emailing, rather than actually doing something. I am not willing to go down that path again.

The problem with Gilbert and others like him who are defensive about the Church, is they have
never had an activist bent, never been in a protest or demonstration or fought for justice. They
do not identify or understand some of the injustices that do exist in the Catholic Church or in
society at large. It makes them uncomfortable when others point it out. They prefer to sweep it
under the carpet or deny it exists. Their response is to hide under the Church skirts and become
defensive.

Please take time to understand without wasting my time. I do not see my role here as educative.

Regards,
George
Very good questions. Perhaps they need to be answered by those who make
or allege these situations. I was merely suggesting ways these folks
could solve their concerns themselves - Not relying on someone else to
address their distress. Aum appurbaen rautam to hear about the
celebrations of Goans on Jan 16, for the feast of Blessed Joseph Vaz
across the Goan Diaspora.
What are you suggesting my friend? That there are "lower caste" Catholic
Goans who desire to join the seminary but do not because they cannot
afford it? Is that what you are saying?
May I ask .... on what basis .....you maketh that statement? Is there a
fee for joining the seminary in Goa? Something new happened while I was
out to dinner?
<No more excuses! Raise the money!
Offer it DIRECTLY TO THE LOWER CASTE CATHOLIC Goans who desire to join
the seminary but cannot afford it.
Let's see if there are any Givers and Takers.
It can't get any simpler.>
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-15 23:55:54 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
George is welcome to ignore this post! However other cyberGoans should
not be denied the analysis. To begin with, let me apologize for his
outburst. I also apologize for the logic escaping GP about Blessed
Joseph Vaz - the Patron Saint of Goa. People do get 'hot under the
collar' when their long essays are shown for what they are, and perhaps
their ego's deflated.

The reason why I brought up the celebration of Blessed Joseph Vaz feast
in the Goan Diasporas is because there are Goans (no names please) that
claim (off all things) white racial discrimination in not celebrating
Goan saints by the supposedly 'white Catholic Church'. So I see the N.
California Goans did not have a celebration for their own patron Goan
saint. I am amused by "celebrated individually by his supporters.":=))
So, now is it that 'White Catholics' discriminate and 'Brown Catholics'
show prejudice too? How about Catholics are not being too religious?
:=)) In fact it is my understanding that the N. California Goans did not
even jointly celebrate the feast of SFX last year on / around December
3. Perhaps the SFX feast was "celebrated individually by his
supporters."

I didn't see this 'individual celebration' among Goans for Christmas and
New Year which is the biggest Western influence (Emperor Constantine's
carry-over of the pagan mid-winter festivity) in the world. In fact the
Goan cruise-gala in San Francisco bay (with multiple postings on cyber
Goa) or similar activity could have been done two weeks later to honor
the Goan Patron Saint.

So Senhor / Shri Pinto and others, please practice what you preach. Of
course it is difficult to promote upholding Goan cultural practices when
Goan cultural symbols are being repeatedly crushed. I hope one finds
logic in this statement and this should not be too difficult to
understand. :=)) On a note of total agreement with GP, Goan culture in
the Diaspora needs urgent attention.

Be my guest in Utica, NY, and see the Italians (from the East Coast of
USA and Canada) celebrate the feast of Saints Cosmos and Damian with
street procession of statues, band, rosary and hymns ani magir mass in
Italian. This is after coming to this country more than 100 years ago.
Regards, GL, Utica, NY.

George Pinto: (N. California)
Yes, it was celebrated individually by supporters here (in fact there is
a long history of such activity which I do not care to repeat).
Additionally, every time something is done it does not need to be
reported in Goan cyberspace and splashed several times across the lists
(this is not World Goa Day). As far as the world-wide Goan community
and Goan associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to
the Euro-centric, and servient role to colonial history and European
saints. If they cannot step out from their second-class past, don't ask
me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my time to help
them. If they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine.
George Pinto
2005-02-16 04:05:21 UTC
Permalink
I think Gilbert is blinded by computer glare as he reads the posts. There is no other explanation
for his inane responses, without basic logic. See his responses to my original post.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The reason why I brought up the celebration of Blessed Joseph Vaz feast
in the Goan Diasporas is because there are Goans (no names please) that
claim (off all things) white racial discrimination in not celebrating
Goan saints by the supposedly 'white Catholic Church'.
This is what I (George) originally wrote "As far as the world-wide Goan community and Goan
associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to the Euro-centric, and servient
role to colonial history and European saints. If they cannot step out from their second-class
past, don't ask me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my time to help them. If
they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine." It is clear my point is Goans
themselves have ignored to celebrate Blessed Vaz on a large scale - of course, the Vatican has
helped. The blame for the lack of Blessed Vaz support lies with Goan Catholics, including the Goan
Catholic church, and the Vatican shares some of the blame too. Don't blame the Joseph Naik Vaz
Institute which are one of the few who ACTUALLY did something. I also think Gilbert is confusing
(nothing new!) the Joseph Naik Vaz Institute with Goa Sudharop, two separate organizations. Also
Gilbert has again not mentioned how HE celebrated the Blessed Vaz feast or how NY Goans celebrated
it. Not that Gilbert is responsible for NY Goans and what they do any more than I am responsible
for Northern California Goans and what they do. But that is his silly logic.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Gilbert wrote....
In fact the Goan cruise-gala in San Francisco bay (with multiple postings on cyber
Goa) or similar activity could have been done two weeks later to honor
the Goan Patron Saint.
The above is borderline idiocy. First of all, Goa Sudharop is a non-profit and as I mentioned in
my prior post, cannot engage in religious or political activities (both its mission and IRS
regulations do not permit it). Goa Sudharop CANNOT celebrate a religious feast like Blessed Vaz.
Goa Sudharop and the Joseph Naik Vaz Institute are two separate organizations. Comprehende
Gilbert? For Gilbert's benefit, one more time - Goa Sudharop CANNOT celebrate a religious feast
like Blessed Vaz. Goa Sudharop and the Joseph Naik Vaz Institute are two separate organizations.
Comprehende Gilbert?

Gilbert, please read the posts several times and take time to understand. It might help. A famous
Goan world-class oncologist should not write without logic, facts, or sense and waste people's
time.

So Gilbert, what did YOU do to celebrate the Blessed Vaz feast and promote his cause?

Regards,
George
Mario Goveia
2005-02-21 20:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Being on vacation and blessedly losing the thread of
this discussion, I am trying to figure out how a
debate about the diabolical caste system and the
obvious contradiction between this ancient social
stratification of Hindu society and the teachings of
Christ, who preached that all human beings were equal
in the eyes of God, has descended into a stone
throwing contest between two blue states in the US
trying to claim some sort of moral superiority based
on celebrating the feasts of selected saints. SAINTS,
for crying out loud!!!

Do we have the bull by the tail here, folks? After
all, aren't saints simply exemplary people whose lives
and works have been formally recognized by the Church?
No more, no less?

Are we C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N-S or S-A-I-N-T-I-A-N-S? Is
it even important or logical to go overboard to
celebrate ANY saint? Remember and honor them? Yes.
Learn from them? Certainly. Ask them to intercede on
our behalf because they are already in heaven? Can't
hurt. But to go any further? Think about it.
Post by George Pinto
I think Gilbert is blinded by computer glare as he
reads the posts. There is no other explanation
for his inane responses, without basic logic. See
his responses to my original post.
--- Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The reason why I brought up the celebration of
Blessed Joseph Vaz feast
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
in the Goan Diasporas is because there are Goans
(no names please) that
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
claim (off all things) white racial discrimination
in not celebrating
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Goan saints by the supposedly 'white Catholic
Church'.
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-23 02:21:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,
So very nice to hear from you.
By all means you can take full credit for that compliment.
You were the only one who stood there and carried on a civil and
educational (for both of us and others) dialogue on Goa's Inquisition
from which we all learnt.
You did not feel defensive and ....
There was nothing defensive for either of us to be anxious about.

I wish all our dialogues especially the one we are having on Goans and
caste could be so enlightening.
It can only be so if there are facts - that are either there or not
there;
And we then know definitely what occurs or did not occur and not some
else's outlook or (mis) representation of the events.

In fact today I was reading about Goa. I came across a reference of how
the same dish in Goa is cooked differently and taste differently in
Goa's different castes. Can you and / or someone enlighten me if this is
true?
I am always willing to learn - the facts. Growing up in Bombay, I know
for a fact that 'the same dish' is fixed differently and taste
differently when fixed by a Goan compared to a Mangalorean or East
Indian. I will not go into which tastes better, because that would not
be a fact. :=)):=))

Regards, GL


Santosh Helekar
This is becoming like the thread about the Inquisition in Goa.
Everybody and his mother-in-law had strong views on the Inquisition.
When we ask for facts and statistics, it was DE NADA - SILENCE,
except for Dr. Santosh Helekar.
Santosh:
Gilbert has been giving me a lot of good publicity lately. I want to
thank him for this yet another good deed.
Gilbert, Can I publicise your above compliment as your acknowledgement
of my good deed? I don't have very many good deeds to my credit.
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-23 07:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You were the only one who stood there and carried on
a >civil and educational (for both of us and others)
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
dialogue on Goa's Inquisition from which we all
learnt. You did not feel defensive and ....
................................................................
I wish all our dialogues especially the one we are
having on Goans and caste could be so enlightening.
Stop it, Gilbert! You are embarrassing me. I am not
accustomed to this type of praise in public. If you
continue this any further, I would have to quit this
forum. You need to learn how to be self-righteous and
abusive.

But I have got to hand it to you. You are impervious
to criticism and sarcasm, and that is definitely a
good thing on a mailing list.

Cheers,

Santosh
cornel
2005-02-02 16:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert,
In response to your posts, please note that Jose Colaco and I had merely
pointed out that Caste and Class are altogether different and oppositional
concepts. Further, it was implied that some Catholic Goan casteists try to
blur the difference between the two with the hope that such subterfuge will
not be noticed. Unfortunately for them, there are too many smarter Goans
(and not Johnny come lately types as you imply) who can take on any casteist
apologist today, primarily because of education, and professional and class
status in a globalised world.

On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at least,
desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So let
me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done. My grandparents and
their generations before them, intuitively knew that casteism was absolute
hogwash. Nevertheless, they were intimidated and undermined by the hegemonic
casteists in Goa. Unfortunately, my forebears did not have the education nor
skills to take on the casteists and their hegemony. However, I am ever so
glad that I can now do this, with absolute relish and confidence,
especially, in targeting contemporary Catholic Goan casteists wherever they
may appear. Now, can you possibly have a problem with my stance? Do you
want an historically oppressed people to suddenly suffer an attack of
amnesia? Not on your Nellie my friend!

Secondly, Catholic Goan casteism was taken beyond Goa, and across the waters
to places like East Africa with much enthusiasm by a thoroughly disgusting
casteist lot. Their hegemony lasted, pretty triumphantly, for them, upto
about three decades ago and still persists there but not with its former
intensity. Instead it has tried to root itself in the UK, Canada, USA and
other places in more recent times. However, it is my earnest hope that it
is today fighting a losing battle in London, Toronto, Melbourne, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, New Jersey/New York and (believe you me) even in
Oslo! And this is, particularly paradoxically, among people who should know
better through education but have been unable to discard what they absorbed,
very early on, through their mothers' milk. We know this because strident
anti-castists, like me, keep our ears to the ground and know exactly what is
going on. Yet, we are pleased when we hear former casteists accept and state
that Catholic Goan casteism is and has always been totally indefensible. All
I therefore personally seek, Gilbert, is this form of coming out, rather
than the absurdity of some die-hard fellow Goans trying to be defensive
about casteism in this day and age.

In sum, it is my firm belief that it is not by running away from evil that
we overcome it, but by going to meet it. Brown racism aka casteism among
Catholic Goans, in all its manifestations, has to be met head on in the Goan
Diaspora, and simultaneously, but bit by bit in Goa itself.
Cornel DaCosta (London)
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-05 06:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Goans and Caste - Getting Hot Under the Collar

Hi Cornell:
I have waited to the weekend to respond to your post. The weekend gives
us the writers and the readers more time to digest this topic. It may
also be a welcome break for the native Goans who must be overdosed
reading stories of the machinations of the Goa government. Thanks for
responding to my post. You have raised many points. With your
indulgence, I am replying to you point by point, which I usually dislike
doing. I am truly trying to learn from your experiences and hopefully
you can educate me/us with specifics.

Cornel:
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at
least,
desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business was a
thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So
let
me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done.

GL responds: Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last
statement. Please be sure to draw a cause and effect relation. No long
explanations needed!

Cornel:
My grandparents and their generations before them, intuitively knew that
casteism was absolute hogwash. Nevertheless, they were intimidated and
undermined by the hegemonic casteists in Goa. Unfortunately, my
forebears did not have the education nor skills to take on the casteists
and their hegemony. However, I am ever so glad that I can now do this,
with absolute relish and confidence, especially, in targeting
contemporary Catholic Goan casteists wherever they may appear. Now, can
you possibly have a problem with my stance? Do you want an historically
oppressed people to suddenly suffer an attack of amnesia? Not on your
Nellie my friend!

GL responds: You are fighting yesterday's battles today. You are more
likely engaged in verbal fencing with 'shadows of the past'. Of course,
You look mighty good!

Cornel:
Secondly, Catholic Goan casteism was taken beyond Goa, and across the
waters
to places like East Africa with much enthusiasm by a thoroughly
disgusting
casteist lot. Their hegemony lasted, pretty triumphantly, for them, upto

about three decades ago and still persists there but not with its
former
intensity. Instead it has tried to root itself in the UK, Canada, USA
and
other places in more recent times. However, it is my earnest hope that
it
is today fighting a losing battle in London, Toronto, Melbourne, Los
Angeles, San Francisco, New Jersey/New York and (believe you me) even in

Oslo!

GL responds: I will tend to agree with you on this; given the many
'social get-together' divisions in the Goan community seen in large
Diaspora. But still this is not a cause and effect relation. Goans in
Diaspora shun people from their own caste. They seek instead individuals
with common legacy, which may be, they are sure of their caste. That is
why I asked you the question how do you target the population group that
you desire to change? Do you single out all folks from East Africa,
which you identified in your first line of the above paragraph and you
growing up there originally are familiar with them? Is this post copied
to all the East African Goan mailing lists? Or are you preaching to the
choir?

Cornel:
And this is, particularly paradoxically, among people who should know
better through education but have been unable to discard what they
absorbed,
very early on, through their mothers' milk. We know this because
strident
anti-casteists, like me, keep our ears to the ground and know exactly
what is going on.

GL responds: I am sure your 'ears are to the ground' in many places. If
your sources are from Goanet, the same posts that I read, then you are
'hearing some blowing in the wind'.:=)) Because all I read on two major
mailing lists are theories (about caste discrimination) with no specific
examples. Unless of course you are implying that the rude posts that I
receive, sometimes from my own village folks, are casteist in nature and
I am just 'not astute enough to get it'.:=)) Cheeze I thought they were
....:=))

Cornel:
Yet, we are pleased when we hear former casteists accept and state
that Catholic Goan casteism is and has always been totally indefensible.


GL responds: Who are these former casteists? I did not see much support
from you and others (including JC) when I condemned the use of Alcunha
(remember the thread on Professora, Professorachem ghor, cheddo etc.)
where today's Johnny-come-lately(s) rest on the laurels of their
ancestors. Thus in the process some of them do a disservice to
themselves (by being lazy) and to other Goans who were not born with 'a
silver spoon in their mouth'. Yes... Yes... I know you were very
busy...! :=)) Most of the Brahmins were not born with a silver spoon in
their mouth. So I would not accuse the opposition on that thread as
being 'Brown racism aka casteism'. I would merely term them defending a
practice which was a part of Goan feudal society, and their own relic,
which today we Goans can do without. That was my 'take-home message' and
hopefully well received.

Cornel:
All I therefore personally seek, Gilbert, is this form of coming out,
rather
than the absurdity of some die-hard fellow Goans trying to be defensive
about casteism in this day and age.

GL responds: Again please show me practice of specific casteism in THIS
DAY AND AGE. I know I 'can be thick' on observing this aspect of Goan
culture.

Cornel:
In sum, it is my firm belief that it is not by running away from evil
that
we overcome it, but by going to meet it. Brown racism aka casteism among

Catholic Goans, in all its manifestations, has to be met head on in the
Goan
Diaspora, and simultaneously, but bit by bit in Goa itself.

GL responds: All power to you my friend. Please provide us examples in
action like a lower-caste Goan get-together at the Royal Dorchester in
London. In my mind you fight caste by lifting the lower caste up ... and
... real up!

As you live in London, perhaps you have changed things. But if not, why
don't you have a 'reception group' of Goans to welcome and help new Goan
immigrants to London and UK. The migrants are 'outsiders' on whose
behalf you are waging a worthy battle. In my three years in London in
the mid '70s, I was invited to one GOA function even though I had met a
few Goans in that city. I did not know GOA (London) existed.

So as a prominent Goan in London and UK you could do a lot to help
eradicate brown-racism by example rather than words. Again you may be
doing it. So why don't you write posts on how established-Goans in
London help Goan new-arrivals to the UK, other lower caste and lower
class Goan ganv-bhavs and ganv-bhoinis get on their feet? (like the
Sikhs, Patels, Parsees and Jews). And this could be repeated in all Goan
Diasporas that do not have this support. After-all you don't want Goans,
thirty years from now, writing about Goans in London etc., in the 21st
Century (a.k.a. you and me) in effect practiced brown-racism. Don't you
think that would be a worthwhile effort to address in practice on 'caste
or class among Goans'? It's not likely that Goans who NEED PRACTICAL
HELP TODAY will be consoled and satisfied with 'getting hot under the
collar' and excuse you and me for our yeomen work in our 'academic ivory
towers'. Regards.
Mario Goveia
2005-02-05 18:15:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by cornel
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to
suggest, or at least, desperately want to believe,
that all this evil caste business was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is
limited to a few. So let me provide you a brief
response to this point. Firstly, Catholic Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always
done.
Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last
statement. Please be sure to draw a cause and effect
relation. No long explanations needed!

Mario adds his 2 cents:
My personal experience is that many Catholic Goans
still have a strong preference for their "own caste"
when it comes to their children's marriage partners,
to the extent that there are still children who go
along with this stuff in India or in the diaspora.

We have actually gotten calls from Catholic Goans who
live in India, Canada, the UK and the US who will call
and ask us about a certain young man or woman we may
know and the caste issue has often come up, sometimes
overtly and sometime in subtle ways like wanting to
know which village in Goa the family is from. They
never call back after my 15 minute tirade asking them
to first make up their minds whether they are
Catholics or not before asking us such questions.

I personally know a family in India where one son
married a very accomplished girl from another caste,
and she is not welcome in the parent's house, even
after over 5 years of marriage. Another son has
married within their caste and is welcome. These
hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's wife, WHO
IS EUROPEAN. They made the mistake of calling me to
inquire about someone for another one of their
children, and needless to say, after I was done with
them, we are no longer on speaking terms.

I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage
where the issue of caste is relevent among Catholic
Goans.
jose colaco
2005-02-05 20:36:13 UTC
Permalink
From: Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>

<I personally know a family in India where one son married a very
accomplished girl from another caste, and she is not welcome in the parent's
house, even after over 5 years of marriage.>

< Another son has married within their caste and is welcome.>

< These hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's wife, WHO IS EUROPEAN.>

<I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage where the issue of
caste is relevent among Catholic Goans.>





I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes one of the "upper caste" in
the Varna (colour) system.

It is not restricted to Catholic Goans ....even though the term "Catholic
caste" is an oxymoron.

Almost like a Compassionate Rightie or Leftie ! (what sez Mario ?)


There is a strong belief based on DNA studies that the Chitpawan Brahmins
like Tilak, Damle et al are Jews from EUROPE. ( CD of studies available
online from Dr. Jagannath Dixit )

Besides, not much is known of the Chitpawans until 500 years ago.

...... another Parshuram Arrow story (perhaps)

I am of the opinion that this thing called "caste" is NOT as important
during marriage among educated Catholic Goans in Goa & the rest of India
....as it is among Catholic Goans who live abroad.

It is present ....but not as much when compared to NRGs

It also is there within the Catholic Church! of that - I am quite sure. In
the 2002 synod, it was recommended that each parish should have ONE
confraria with ONE dress code. Doubt that has come into uniform effect yet.

I suppose this separation plays right into the Swadeshi project - especially
as it was never ever abolished within the Church.


jc

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goanet-admin
2005-02-06 07:06:40 UTC
Permalink
Jose Colaco <colaco_2 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Mario wrote:
These hypocrites have also welcomed a third son's
wife, WHO IS EUROPEAN.>
Post by jose colaco
<I am not aware of any circumstance other than
marriage where the issue of caste is relevent among
Catholic Goans.>
Post by jose colaco
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes
one of the "upper caste" in the Varna (colour) system.
Post by jose colaco
It is not restricted to Catholic Goans ....even
though the term "Catholic caste" is an oxymoron.
Almost like a Compassionate Rightie or Leftie !
(what sez Mario ?)
Mario sez:
Jose, I can tell you that accepting an European D-I-L
and rejecting an Indian D-I-L, regardless of their
relative complexions, does not dilute or enhance the
hypocrisy of the family I mentioned. They are still
world-class hypocrites.

Second, there is a good reason why I did not mention
non-Catholic Goans, and that is that the section of
the discussion between Cornel and Gilbert in which I
intervened was restricted to Catholic Goans. In my
opinion, mentioning non-Catholic Goans did not fir in
and would have only complicated the discussion. Yes,
"Catholic caste" is an oxymoron at the theoretical
level but not in the real world where it is very much
a fact of life.
Post by jose colaco
I am of the opinion that this thing called "caste"
is NOT as important during marriage among educated
Catholic Goans in Goa & the rest of India ....as it is
among Catholic Goans who live abroad.
Post by jose colaco
It is present ....but not as much when compared to
NRGs.
Mario replies:
I understand that that is your opinion. However,
whether your opinion fits the facts or not is what
this dialog is all about. In my opinion, based on the
limited sample of calls I have received, it is just as
prevalent among Goans in Goa as with Goans in India
but outside Goa, and as with NRGs, whether educated or
not.
Jose says:
It also is there within the Catholic Church! of that
- I am quite sure. In the 2002 synod, it was
recommended that each parish should have ONE
confraria with ONE dress code. Doubt that has come
into uniform effect yet.
Post by jose colaco
I suppose this separation plays right into the
Swadeshi project - especially as it was never ever
abolished within the Church.

Mario replies:
I have no idea whether the official "Catholic Church"
in Goa has anything to do with caste, and I don't see
how any Catholic Church can support the apartheit that
the caste system is similar to, and still claim to be
Catholic.

However, I am aware that in Kerala there are separate
Catholic Churches and parishes for Dalits, and Dalits
do not attend the "upper caste" Catholic Churches,
which is an abominable and despicable situation in my
opinion.
goanet-admin
2005-02-06 22:35:20 UTC
Permalink
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]RE: Goans and Caste
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically becomes
one of the "upper caste" in the Varna (colour) system.
Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would
have lived a charmed life istead of the piteously precarious
lot that, with the exception of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been
has predominatly dogged them.

_________________________________________________________________
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goanet-admin
2005-02-07 04:20:52 UTC
Permalink
<Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would have lived a
charmed life istead of the piteously precarious lot that, with the exception
of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly dogged them.>




Of course with this new "system" that Goanet admin has instituted - I don't
know to whom I am responding.

All power and glory to their brilliance.


Anyway ......

by 'anglos' - I trust you mean Anglo-Indians....right? ...because true
Anglos are Full Brits.

No idea how many 'mestizos' and 'anglo-indians' you have met or known.

I trust that you know the difference between FULL WHITE and NOT FULL WHITE

As in the US and in the UK ..... like among Indian Brahmins ......pure is
pure!

Also try ascertain WHO contribute to the non-WHITE component in
Anglo-Indians and Mestizos

NOT Brahmins or Kshatriyas.

hey......even if a blue blooded "Brahmin" were to have a child with a
"Sudra" ...... and that child was WHITE as Afghan Snow ..... that child was
a "Sudra" ! (Please read Manu)

Now..... to WHOM did I reply?

sincerely

jose colaco
zoncar de Carabolim

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goanet-admin
2005-02-07 22:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mario:
Thanks for reading my post on this thread and responding to it. From
your past posts and views on this subject, you are far from being an
apologist about caste attitudes among Goans. In fact, one could describe
you as very hostile to anyone who may demonstrate an inclination to
caste considerations as your post below and others suggest.

Yet, in your response and other posts, you have never claimed the
existence of casteism in the Goa's Catholic Church in the period you
grew up (and since) in Goa and Bombay. I hope Cornell who spent much of
his life in East Africa and England will learn from you (and me) -
individuals who were a lot closer to round zero. Now if some native
Goans can provide statistics and factual patterns of behavior (not
isolated instances, personal grudges or preconceptions), that may bring
all of us up to speed on a subject that so far has raised more heat than
light.

But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary. Perhaps Goa Sudharop can help channel the
tax-free contribution to this worthwhile cause. I wonder if George Pinto
of California (who has also expressed an opinion on this subject) is
reading this.

Now to the issue of individuals inquiring about caste at the time of
marriage. I would submit to you that THIS DOES OCCUR. Now if that is the
only factor that people (parents) take into consideration, then a
prospective recipient should be happy that they did not receive a soirik
from this family. Because this is likely a very narrow-minded family and
the new in-law especially from Canada would be better-off not having
anything to do with these types.

On the other hand, inquiries about caste can also one of very many many
questions one asks about an individual. I would call it 'due
diligence'. Should not one inquire about education, job, place of
residence, school, college, personal habits, family background etc. and
may even be good looks. Someone who does not have an attribute may
complain equally loud about any of these inquiries. Now no one is
perfect. All individuals are a balance. And to feel diffident for lack
of an attribute is really a sign of (lack of) self-confidence and
self-worth.

In fact at an interview for a new job, one inquires about all and sundry
- pleasant and unpleasant things about the employer and employee. Would
not your curiosity interest you about the ethnic background of your
employers, employees, co-workers or clients? Is there something wrong
with that? Would you take or turn down the job just on that single
factor - NO soiree! If you do, then it will be your loss.

Finally a single guy explained why he was not married.
Questioner: Why you are not married?
He said: I am waiting for the prefect girl.
Questioner: So did you not find any?
He said: Yes I did find a few.
Questioner: So what happened?
He said: They wanted the perfect guy.
Regards Gilbert

Mario adds his 2 cents:
My personal experience is that many Catholic Goans still have a strong
preference for their "own caste" when it comes to their children's
marriage partners, to the extent that there are still children who go
along with this stuff in India or in the Diaspora.

I am not aware of any circumstance other than marriage where the issue
of caste is relevant among Catholic Goans.

Gilbert:
Please give me EXAMPLES OF TODAY of the above last statement. Please be
sure to draw a cause and effect relation. No long explanations needed!

Cornel:
On another point, I believe that you are inclined to suggest, or at
least, desperately want to believe, that all this evil caste business
was a thing
of the past, and if prevalent at all today, it is limited to a few. So
let me provide you a brief response to this point. Firstly, Catholic
Goa
absolutely reeks of caste today as it has always done.
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 02:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Something strange is happening on Goanet recently.
All the posts are being identified as being from
goanet-admin at goanet.org, and not from the poster. For
example, the attached post is a comment in response to
something that Dr. Jose Colaco posted, but we can't
tell who it's from????
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]RE: Goans and Caste
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Post by jose colaco
I wonder if the "european" automatically
becomes one of the "upper caste" in the Varna
(colour) system.
Unidentified Poster??? comments
Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and
'anglos' would have lived a charmed life istead of
the piteously precarious lot that, with the exception
of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly
dogged them.
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goanet-admin
2005-02-08 02:18:20 UTC
Permalink
A few questions:

1. How far is Porto from Lisbon by car?
2. Is there a direct train from Lisbon airport to central Porto?
3. Any Goan organization in Porto?
4. Any Goan function in either Lisbon or Porto from Mar 26 - Apr 2?

Please reply to georgejpinto at yahoo.com

Thanks,
George Pinto
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
In fact, one could describe you as very hostile to
anyone who may demonstrate an inclination to caste
considerations as your post below and others suggest.
Mario clarifies:
Gilbert, I am not hostile to "anyone" personally, but
militantly and fundamentally opposed to any concept
that forms opinions and takes actions for or against
someone based on factors which they had nothing to do
with, rather than on their personal achievements and
the content of their character. Thus I oppose the
caste system, period, and even more so among
Catholics, where it goes against every tenet of
Christianity. I have seen far too many very good
people and families devastated by such discriminatory
thinking regardless of how the perpetrators choose to
sugar-coat it.
Post by goanet-admin
Yet, in your response and other posts, you have
never claimed the existence of casteism in the Goa's
Catholic Church in the period you grew up (and since)
in Goa and Bombay. I hope Cornell who spent much of
his life in East Africa and England will learn from
you (and me) - individuals who were a lot closer to
round zero. Now if some native Goans can provide
statistics and factual patterns of behavior (not
isolated instances, personal grudges or pre-
conceptions), that may bring all of us up to speed on
a subject that so far has raised more heat than
light.
Mario clarifies:
I grew up in Jabalpur where there were few Goans and
so Goan Catholic casteism was rarely talked about. I
have never lived in Goa and have never discussed
casteism with any Catholic priest anywhere in the
context of the Catholic Church. I took it for granted
that they would be against the caste system. The term
"Catholic caste" is an oxymoron, as someone said
recently, and I would denounce any Catholic priest who
did not denounce the continuing practice of casteism
among Catholics.

I categorically denounce the necessity and reality of
Dalit parishes in Kerala because Dalits are not
welcome in "upper-caste" Catholic parishes, and I
would do the same with regard to any parish in Goa
that discrimintated against anyone based on their
"caste" or color or any other basis other than their
personal behavior.

I don't see how statistics would affect any of this.
goanet-admin
2005-02-08 07:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Solly, ol' boy, it was I .....chuk zalli, matar? zatam re saiba... senility,
decreptitude creeps in; foward-leaping G-net leaps away, leaving the age
challenged to challenge age...

Alfred Methuselah
From: "jose colaco" <colaco_2 at hotmail.com>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: RE: Goans and Caste again
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 00:35:51 +0000
<Were that the case Dr Joe, the 'mestizos' and 'anglos' would have lived a
charmed life istead of the piteously precarious lot that, with the
exception of a few intrepid 'Kims', has been has predominatly dogged them.
goanet-admin
2005-02-09 02:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by goanet-admin
But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary.
The issue is not a lack of funding. The Goa Church is one of Goa's richest institutions
(approximately 165 parishes, schools, etc.). It has the money to fund seminarians. The issue is
whether there is a will among church authorities and the laity to end the caste system practiced
by some Goan Catholics.

On a somewhat related issue, there is no lack of vocations/priests in India, over 1,000 are
ordained every year and Indian priests continue to be "exported" to places like the USA, Canada,
and some parts of Europe where there is a shortage. The Asian, African, Latin American Catholic
markets are the fastest growing in the world. However, they have little to show for it at the
Vatican which is run mostly by Europeans - brown and black people doing the hard work while the
honors are reserved for Europeans. Most unfortunate.

Regards,
George Pinto
goanet-admin
2005-02-11 05:02:32 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
No more excuses!
Raise the money!
Offer it DIRECTLY TO THE LOWER CASTE CATHOLIC Goans who desire to join
the seminary but cannot afford it.
Let's see if there are any Givers and Takers.
It can't get any simpler.
Regards indifference of Europeans to Goan/Asian saints. Please tell us:
How the Goan community, under your leadership, celebrated the Feast of
Blessed Joseph in California? Did not see any posts before or after the
fest.
Thanks, Regards.

Jose Colaco:
Well said George. And Catholics who normally make a big spiel about
"cafeteria Catholicism" may wish to understand very clearly that:

1. The Caste System is contrary to Christianity
2. That the Death Penalty is contrary to the Commandment which says -
Thou
Shalt NOT kill.

George Pinto:
The issue is not a lack of funding... The issue is whether there is a
will
among church authorities and the laity to end the caste system practiced
by
some Goan Catholics>

Gilbert Lawrence:
But perhaps if Cornell and others feel there is casteism in Goa's
Catholic church and DISCRIMINATION OF LOWER CASTE and want do something
about it (rather than just talk and write), they can offer financially
support for the cost of seeking vocations and training of lower caste
priests in Goa's seminary>
George Pinto
2005-02-14 04:45:55 UTC
Permalink
This is a response to Gilbert's two recent emails on caste and Goans. I had chosen to ignore the
first one, but when fiction is repeated, it deserves a response at least to get some basic facts
right.........

Either Gilbert does not think through the issues or ignores the facts or is in haste or his logic
does not serve him well. His respones have been pretty lame of late and does not do credit to his
ability.

1. I would like to know what HE did to celebrate the Blessed Vaz feast (it is important not to
throw stones at others from a glass house). Yes, it was celebrated individually by supporters
here (in fact there is a long history of such activity which I do not care to repeat).
Additionally, everytime something is done it does not need to be reported in Goan cyberspace and
splashed several times across the lists (this is not World Goa Day). As far as the world-wide
Goan community and Goan associations are concerned their strings are firmly attached to the
Euro-centric, and servient role to colonial history and European saints. If they cannot step out
from their second-class past, don't ask me to help. They are a hopeless lot, it is not worth my
time to help them. If they do not consider Blessed Vaz worth celebrating - fine. Additionally, I
am not President of the Goan Association (I was in 1990-2001). I am active in Goa Sudharop but
hardly consider my myself a leader in the Goan community, others are doing a better job.
Additionally, Goa Sudharop by its mission is non-religious and non-political (hence you won't see
religious or politcal events scheduled and announced).

2. As far as caste goes, Gilbert is again confused (more than his normal confusion). The issue
once again is not a lack of funds or lack of Dalit seminarians or whatever bogus issue Gilbert
introduces, but the discrimatory practice of the caste system practiced by some in the Catholic
church heirarchy and by some laity. He suggested earlier it does not exist because he has not
experienced it. This is the same "head in sand" approach as the sex abuse issue by priests. The
caste system has to be solved collectively. I have done my bit by pointing it out and I am not
willing to do more at this point. It is MY CHOICE how I spend my time and money and sometimes some
good causes do not get the attention they deserve. Perhaps Gilbert can pick up the slack.

Please don't waste my time having to respond to fairytale emails. I learnt from my experience in
2000 (specifically with respect to the Blessed Vaz issue) that most cybergoans will waste time
emailing, rather than actually doing something. I am not willing to go down that path again.

The problem with Gilbert and others like him who are defensive about the Church, is they have
never had an activist bent, never been in a protest or demonstration or fought for justice. They
do not identify or understand some of the injustices that do exist in the Catholic Church or in
society at large. It makes them uncomfortable when others point it out. They prefer to sweep it
under the carpet or deny it exists. Their response is to hide under the Church skirts and become
defensive.

Please take time to understand without wasting my time. I do not see my role here as educative.

Regards,
George
Very good questions. Perhaps they need to be answered by those who make
or allege these situations. I was merely suggesting ways these folks
could solve their concerns themselves - Not relying on someone else to
address their distress. Aum appurbaen rautam to hear about the
celebrations of Goans on Jan 16, for the feast of Blessed Joseph Vaz
across the Goan Diaspora.
What are you suggesting my friend? That there are "lower caste" Catholic
Goans who desire to join the seminary but do not because they cannot
afford it? Is that what you are saying?
May I ask .... on what basis .....you maketh that statement? Is there a
fee for joining the seminary in Goa? Something new happened while I was
out to dinner?
<No more excuses! Raise the money!
Offer it DIRECTLY TO THE LOWER CASTE CATHOLIC Goans who desire to join
the seminary but cannot afford it.
Let's see if there are any Givers and Takers.
It can't get any simpler.>
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