Discussion:
India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
(too old to reply)
Goanet Reader
2010-06-29 19:05:22 UTC
Permalink
We are not great, we have to strive to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias

It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
gave the classic reply which immortalized him. The reply: "My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin. He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.

We, as a people, seem to have the highest regard
for Chauvin and have mastered the art of
chauvinism. If chauvinism were to be declared as a
sport, India would sweep all medals at the
Olympics. A symptom of our chauvinism is apparent
in the oft repeated slogan "Mera Bharat Mahan" (My
India is great). The question that arises, is it
really so?

There has been no greatness about our country, not in the
last two thousand years or so. Our history is nothing but a
record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the
victim of invasions and conquests as much as India has been.
The Huns, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Mongols or whosoever
have simply marched into the country pillaged and ransacked.

As a consequence of our cowardice and failure to defend
ourselves, invaders who marched in at will, marched out with
booty and tens of thousands of Indians as slaves. The poor
underfed vegetarians from the plains were driven ruthlessly
over the mountains of Afghanistan, where they died "like
flies", as history records. The mountains themselves came to
be known as Hindu Kush Mountains. Hindu Kush does not mean
Hindu happy; it means Hindu killer, in the local language.

Geographically, the country was by far the most defensible
against battle technology available in those days. The
Himalayas form a huge bulwark towards the north. No invader,
has crossed the Himalayas into India until the Chinese 1962.

The eastern borders with Burma are rugged hills. No invader
had come, from the East, until the Japanese advanced over
7,000 kms from their island home to reach Kohima during the
Second World War. The South has a vast ocean around it. No
invader entered from the sea till Afonso de Albuquerque
conquered Goa in the sixteenth century.

All previous invasions into the country were
overland from the West. And there were just two
routes of entry into the country; the Bolan Pass
and the Khyber pass. Most of the invaders poured in
through the Khyber pass which is about thirty four
kilometers long and in places only three metres
wide. There was no other entry point into the
country. However it never occurred to our
countrymen to fortify the passes and permanently
block access to invaders.

In this context, I am reminded of the designer advertisements
being released by the Indian army inviting fellow Indians to
join the army. The advertisements are couched in a language
which practically seem to suggest that the Indian army is a
five star hotel with all sorts of facilities for those who
join it. Despite such enticing advertisements, the shortage
of manpower in the army has mounted to fourteen thousand
officers.

If we have to join the army there is only one reason to do
so; and that is because the country needs the soldiers to
defend it. It is here that patriotism comes in. No other
reason is required. One point two billion people and we are
running short of fourteen thousand officers. Can you beat
that?

I have seen how when the Government of Goa announces
vacancies for police sub inspectors, thousands of Goans apply
and are known to have paid "bribe price" of up to
Rs.15,00,000 to be selected. I understand that shortly
another batch of sub inspectors is to be recruited. The
"bribe price" has reportedly touched Rs.25,00,000.

Mark my words, there would be thousands, seeking to pull
strings and willing to pay the "bribe price" to be selected.
None of these applicants for PSIs would go anywhere near an
army selection camp where one would be gladly and freely
selected. Who wants to be at risk of being killed in the
battlefront when it is much easier to make a "killing" in the
police force? That's our patriotism.

I often wonder about the Sangh Parivar which today seems to
hold a monopoly on patriotism. The RSS itself claims a
membership of over twenty five million cadres who dressed in
khaki are frequently seen marching in military formation. The
Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene and the VHP have their tough-looking
volunteers who have unleashed their 'patriotism' in Gujarat,
Karnataka and not very long ago at Fontainhas in Panaji too.
So presumably, the Sangh Parivar is full of young energetic
country men willing to defendant the country's honour.

That being so, why does the RSS and its sister
organizations not hold camps of its patriotic
sevaks and call upon the army, to select from its
cadre? The army should be easily able to enroll
fourteen thousand officers from among the twenty
five million 'pathetic' swayam sevaks. Will the RSS
at least now prove its patriotism and provides its
cadres for recruitment into the army? It is time
that the Sangh Parivar cadres display their
patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where
the threat lies.

Our self-belief in our greatness is unfounded and the cause
of our downfall. We do not become great through self
proclamation. The rest of the world has to acknowledge our
greatness. No one does so. There is not a single field of
human endeavour where we are anywhere near the top. There is
not a single field of human endeavour where we are not near
the bottom.

Our self-glorification is not a new phenomenon. Alberuni
traveling through India in the eleventh century writes about
our countrymen:

According to their belief, there is no other
country on earth but theirs, no other race of man
but theirs, and no created beings besides them have
any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their
haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any
science or scholar in Kurasan and Persis, they will
think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If
they traveled and mixed with other nations, they
would soon change their mind, for their ancestors
were not as narrow-minded as the present generation
is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a
passage where he calls on the people to honour the
Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be
honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and
therein excelled others."

Nothing seems to have changed over the last millennium.

We were not alone in proclaiming our greatness. Until the
middle of the nineteenth century the Japanese were as insular
as us and had their own version of Hindutva. The Japanese
closed their ports to foreign trade. Western nations demanded
the right to trade. The Japanese refused to concede. French,
American, Dutch and British forces bombarded Japanese ports
and within a few days the Japanese navy was routed. Japan
conceded all the demands and opened its ports. Unlike us, the
Japanese did not take the defeat lying down. The Japanese
accepted that the West was far more advanced.

The Japanese people were unnerved by the unexpected defeat.
The Japanese shogun united behind the emperor Mejid Matsuhito
and handed over all powers to him so that Japan could advance
"and be able to rank equally with other Nations of the
World". The year was 1867.

Douglas Collier writing on what happened thereafter records :

Soon, great numbers of Japanese, delegations from
every craft, every city in the land, were touring
London, Paris, New York and other world centres,
behaving with the impeccable good manners so little
in evidence in foreigners who had visited Japan.

And now Japanese industrial revolution began to
speed, during this second half of the Emperor
Meiji's long reign. Factories sprang up like
mushrooms, and the ships which had so shocked and
impressed the Japanese in 1853 and which they
subsequently ordered, one by one, from the Western
world, began to be made, even faster, in Japanese
yards. The foreign monopoly of the crowded and
important steamship trade between Japan and China
was broken by a thrusting, new,
government-sponsored "Japan Mail Line". A
Western-style army and navy began to grow.

Japan was at last established as the equal of any
nation; but there was no resting on laurels. The
visits of beaming, polite, little men all over
Europe and the United States, absorbing silently
and with absolute accuracy everything they saw and
heard, went on, encouraged as before by the
emperor. Meiji journeyed widely himself, setting a
novel precedent and coming back regularly to his
domains with plans for still more improvement,
expansion in education, science, industry."

The Japanese have since emerged as the second largest economy
on earth. The Japanese have also improved physically. The
average height of a twenty one year old Japanese has
increased by twenty centimeters post Second World War. This
additional height is jokingly referred to as "hamburger
height" since it is attributed to the Japanese change to
American food habits.

Turkey, on the western frontiers of Asia had dominated the
world for nearly seven centuries. However, as the West
advanced, Turkey stagnated and came to be called the sick man
of Europe. At this time the Turks had a great fortune to see
the emergence of Kemal Attaturk who understood the cause for
the backwardness of Turkey. He united Turkey and was
determined to modernize the Nation on western lines.

Lawrence Wilson writes:

"To make Turkey a strong, independent, modernized country was
now the goal. Through the National Assembly he bulldozed a
unanimous vote abolishing the Sultanate. Religion he saw as
the great enemy to progress, and as long as there was a
caliph he himself was not supreme and could not free the
people from superstition. In March, 1924, Abdul Meji was sent
packing and the State was secularized.

"There was great and growing opposition. But Kemal was utterly
ruthless. Gradually he established himself as absolute
dictator. With paternal rigour he then gave his people what
he though they needed. The fez, the symbol of the Ottoman
past, was abolished and its wearing made a crime. Monasteries
were closed, their inmates turned out to work or starve.

"Commercial, penal and civil codes were imported from abroad
and antiquated Moslem laws were swept. The metric system was
introduced and the Gregorian calendar. Polygamy was abolished
and women were given equal rights with men. Down to the
smallest detail of social life, time honoured habits were
hacked away and in the clearing made the Turk was set on his
feet and told to behave like a modern man.

"But only two or three per cent of the people were literate
and this was partly due to the inadequacy of Arabic
characters for writing Turkish. In 1928 Kemal, substituted
the Latin alphabet and toured the country teaching the new
signs."

The tragedy of our country is that we are yet to
find our emperor Meji or Kemal Attaturk.
Superstition wrapped in ritual continues to hold
sway. As custom. As tradition. As religion. No
leader or political party has the courage to
challenge superstition.

We are still lost in the back woods since we refuse to
acknowledge our own weaknesses and correct them as the
Japanese or Turks have done. We have to admit that we are a
cesspool of superstitions and corruptions, dishonesty and
deceit. We have stagnated and failed to evolve and advance.

Our contribution to civilization, (and it cannot be disputed)
is "zero". No pun intended. We have become the coelacanth, of
civilization. We are not great. We have to strive to be great.

[The author is a South Goa lawyer, and former member of the
Goa legislative assembly, known for his forthright, if
sometimes controversial, views. Feedback can be sent to him
via carlosnoronha at yahoo.com ]
Santosh Helekar
2010-06-29 21:04:49 UTC
Permalink
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe. In this article it looks like chauvinism is countered by self-loathing, using a rather constricted definition of greatness and progress. If, as the silly line of argument in this article suggests, the principal measure of contribution to society is to join the army, then India has done quite well. It has arguably the third largest army in the world, after China and Russia.

But I am sure most readers of the article have more sense than to believe any aspect of the cartoonish picture sketched by it. Contributions to human
civilization involve much more than military prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more than even technological advancement. There is language, art, music, dance, literature, sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and numerous other areas of human endeavor that characterize any culture and society. I would like to know whether the author of the said article has thought about them at all. His article certainly does not indicate he has. But if he has or if he does so now, I would also like to know what kind of objective method he would use to place India at the bottom of the pack in these areas as well.

BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics was one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as transformative as the` invention of calculus.

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Also, encouraging or shaming the RSS and other Hindu extremists into joining the military would be the worst calamity anybody could wish upon India.
Post by Goanet Reader
We are not great, we have to strive
to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias
It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify
the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
"My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin.
He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.
Frederick Noronha
2010-06-30 05:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Easy to dismiss any criticism as "self-loathing", "smearing" etc. That
way, almost anything could be dismissively cast aside and written
away! Where's the space then for critical thought and questioning
then?

As far as Radha's point on the RSS goes, I saw it differently. He was
merely pointing out to their hypocrisy -- talk about "patriotism" but
not do something like join the army and risk getting killed
themselves. In other words, ahem, something like skin-deep patriotism!

While I don't agree entirely with Gracias, and believe some of the
comparisons (with Japan, Turkey) might not be apt, because our history
has been so different, he does through up an interesting challenge to
think about.

FN

Frederick Noronha
+91-9822122436
+91-832-2409490

On 30 June 2010 02:34, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one
fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe. In this
article it looks like chauvinism is countered by self-loathing, using
a rather constricted definition of greatness and progress. If, as the
silly line of argument in this article suggests, the principal measure
of contribution to society is to join the army, then India has done
quite well. It has arguably the third largest army in the world, after
China and Russia.
But I am sure most readers of the article have more sense than to
believe any aspect of the cartoonish picture sketched by it.
Contributions to human civilization involve much more than military
prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more than even technological
advancement. There is language, art, music, dance, literature,
sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and numerous other areas
of human endeavor that characterize any culture and society. I would
like to know whether the author of the said article has thought about
them at all. His article certainly does not indicate he has. But if he
has or if he does so now, I would also like to know what kind of
objective method he would use to place India at the bottom of the pack
in these areas as well.
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics was
one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as
transformative as the` invention of calculus.
Jim Fernandes
2010-07-01 02:25:37 UTC
Permalink
I don't give much importance to the invention of "zero" by an ancient
Indian to arithmetic. If the decimal numbering system was the only
system humans used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.

The entire field of electronics and computer science uses binary,
octal or hexa-decimal numbering systems. Therefore, I feel the "zero"
would have been discovered by humans one way or another anyway.

The concept of "zero" is an ancient discovery. What else has been
discovered or invented by Indians in modern India?

Almost every Indian nobel winner in science I can think of, became
successful, only after they migrated out of the country.

Jim F
New York


Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 29, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Post by Santosh Helekar
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one
fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe.
...
...
...
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics
was one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as
transformative as the` invention of calculus.
Cheers,
Santosh
eric pinto
2010-07-01 12:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Jimmy/Santosh - tell us something about the man who?we as well as the Greeks call Pitagarh.???? eric.




________________________________
From: Jim Fernandes <amigo007

I don't give much importance to the invention of "zero" by an ancient Indian to arithmetic. If the decimal numbering system was the only system humans used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.
eric pinto
2010-07-01 12:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Jimmy/Santosh - tell us something about the man who?we as well as the Greeks call Pitagarh.???? eric.




________________________________
From: Jim Fernandes <amigo007

I don't give much importance to the invention of "zero" by an ancient Indian to arithmetic. If the decimal numbering system was the only system humans used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.
eric pinto
2010-07-01 12:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Jimmy/Santosh - tell us something about the man who?we as well as the Greeks call Pitagarh.???? eric.




________________________________
From: Jim Fernandes <amigo007

I don't give much importance to the invention of "zero" by an ancient Indian to arithmetic. If the decimal numbering system was the only system humans used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.
eric pinto
2010-07-01 12:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Jimmy/Santosh - tell us something about the man who?we as well as the Greeks call Pitagarh.???? eric.




________________________________
From: Jim Fernandes <amigo007

I don't give much importance to the invention of "zero" by an ancient Indian to arithmetic. If the decimal numbering system was the only system humans used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.
eric pinto
2010-07-01 12:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Jimmy/Santosh - tell us something about the man who?we as well as the Greeks call Pitagarh.???? eric.




________________________________
From: Jim Fernandes <amigo007

I don't give much importance to the invention of "zero" by an ancient Indian to arithmetic. If the decimal numbering system was the only system humans used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.
Frederick Noronha
2010-06-30 05:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Easy to dismiss any criticism as "self-loathing", "smearing" etc. That
way, almost anything could be dismissively cast aside and written
away! Where's the space then for critical thought and questioning
then?

As far as Radha's point on the RSS goes, I saw it differently. He was
merely pointing out to their hypocrisy -- talk about "patriotism" but
not do something like join the army and risk getting killed
themselves. In other words, ahem, something like skin-deep patriotism!

While I don't agree entirely with Gracias, and believe some of the
comparisons (with Japan, Turkey) might not be apt, because our history
has been so different, he does through up an interesting challenge to
think about.

FN

Frederick Noronha
+91-9822122436
+91-832-2409490

On 30 June 2010 02:34, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one
fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe. In this
article it looks like chauvinism is countered by self-loathing, using
a rather constricted definition of greatness and progress. If, as the
silly line of argument in this article suggests, the principal measure
of contribution to society is to join the army, then India has done
quite well. It has arguably the third largest army in the world, after
China and Russia.
But I am sure most readers of the article have more sense than to
believe any aspect of the cartoonish picture sketched by it.
Contributions to human civilization involve much more than military
prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more than even technological
advancement. There is language, art, music, dance, literature,
sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and numerous other areas
of human endeavor that characterize any culture and society. I would
like to know whether the author of the said article has thought about
them at all. His article certainly does not indicate he has. But if he
has or if he does so now, I would also like to know what kind of
objective method he would use to place India at the bottom of the pack
in these areas as well.
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics was
one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as
transformative as the` invention of calculus.
Jim Fernandes
2010-07-01 02:25:37 UTC
Permalink
I don't give much importance to the invention of "zero" by an ancient
Indian to arithmetic. If the decimal numbering system was the only
system humans used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.

The entire field of electronics and computer science uses binary,
octal or hexa-decimal numbering systems. Therefore, I feel the "zero"
would have been discovered by humans one way or another anyway.

The concept of "zero" is an ancient discovery. What else has been
discovered or invented by Indians in modern India?

Almost every Indian nobel winner in science I can think of, became
successful, only after they migrated out of the country.

Jim F
New York


Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 29, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Post by Santosh Helekar
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one
fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe.
...
...
...
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics
was one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as
transformative as the` invention of calculus.
Cheers,
Santosh
Frederick Noronha
2010-06-30 05:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Easy to dismiss any criticism as "self-loathing", "smearing" etc. That
way, almost anything could be dismissively cast aside and written
away! Where's the space then for critical thought and questioning
then?

As far as Radha's point on the RSS goes, I saw it differently. He was
merely pointing out to their hypocrisy -- talk about "patriotism" but
not do something like join the army and risk getting killed
themselves. In other words, ahem, something like skin-deep patriotism!

While I don't agree entirely with Gracias, and believe some of the
comparisons (with Japan, Turkey) might not be apt, because our history
has been so different, he does through up an interesting challenge to
think about.

FN

Frederick Noronha
+91-9822122436
+91-832-2409490

On 30 June 2010 02:34, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one
fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe. In this
article it looks like chauvinism is countered by self-loathing, using
a rather constricted definition of greatness and progress. If, as the
silly line of argument in this article suggests, the principal measure
of contribution to society is to join the army, then India has done
quite well. It has arguably the third largest army in the world, after
China and Russia.
But I am sure most readers of the article have more sense than to
believe any aspect of the cartoonish picture sketched by it.
Contributions to human civilization involve much more than military
prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more than even technological
advancement. There is language, art, music, dance, literature,
sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and numerous other areas
of human endeavor that characterize any culture and society. I would
like to know whether the author of the said article has thought about
them at all. His article certainly does not indicate he has. But if he
has or if he does so now, I would also like to know what kind of
objective method he would use to place India at the bottom of the pack
in these areas as well.
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics was
one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as
transformative as the` invention of calculus.
Jim Fernandes
2010-07-01 02:25:37 UTC
Permalink
I don't give much importance to the invention of "zero" by an ancient
Indian to arithmetic. If the decimal numbering system was the only
system humans used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.

The entire field of electronics and computer science uses binary,
octal or hexa-decimal numbering systems. Therefore, I feel the "zero"
would have been discovered by humans one way or another anyway.

The concept of "zero" is an ancient discovery. What else has been
discovered or invented by Indians in modern India?

Almost every Indian nobel winner in science I can think of, became
successful, only after they migrated out of the country.

Jim F
New York


Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 29, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Post by Santosh Helekar
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one
fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe.
...
...
...
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics
was one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as
transformative as the` invention of calculus.
Cheers,
Santosh
Frederick Noronha
2010-06-30 05:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Easy to dismiss any criticism as "self-loathing", "smearing" etc. That
way, almost anything could be dismissively cast aside and written
away! Where's the space then for critical thought and questioning
then?

As far as Radha's point on the RSS goes, I saw it differently. He was
merely pointing out to their hypocrisy -- talk about "patriotism" but
not do something like join the army and risk getting killed
themselves. In other words, ahem, something like skin-deep patriotism!

While I don't agree entirely with Gracias, and believe some of the
comparisons (with Japan, Turkey) might not be apt, because our history
has been so different, he does through up an interesting challenge to
think about.

FN

Frederick Noronha
+91-9822122436
+91-832-2409490

On 30 June 2010 02:34, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one
fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe. In this
article it looks like chauvinism is countered by self-loathing, using
a rather constricted definition of greatness and progress. If, as the
silly line of argument in this article suggests, the principal measure
of contribution to society is to join the army, then India has done
quite well. It has arguably the third largest army in the world, after
China and Russia.
But I am sure most readers of the article have more sense than to
believe any aspect of the cartoonish picture sketched by it.
Contributions to human civilization involve much more than military
prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more than even technological
advancement. There is language, art, music, dance, literature,
sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and numerous other areas
of human endeavor that characterize any culture and society. I would
like to know whether the author of the said article has thought about
them at all. His article certainly does not indicate he has. But if he
has or if he does so now, I would also like to know what kind of
objective method he would use to place India at the bottom of the pack
in these areas as well.
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics was
one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as
transformative as the` invention of calculus.
Jim Fernandes
2010-07-01 02:25:37 UTC
Permalink
I don't give much importance to the invention of "zero" by an ancient
Indian to arithmetic. If the decimal numbering system was the only
system humans used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.

The entire field of electronics and computer science uses binary,
octal or hexa-decimal numbering systems. Therefore, I feel the "zero"
would have been discovered by humans one way or another anyway.

The concept of "zero" is an ancient discovery. What else has been
discovered or invented by Indians in modern India?

Almost every Indian nobel winner in science I can think of, became
successful, only after they migrated out of the country.

Jim F
New York


Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 29, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Post by Santosh Helekar
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one
fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe.
...
...
...
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics
was one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as
transformative as the` invention of calculus.
Cheers,
Santosh
Frederick Noronha
2010-06-30 05:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Easy to dismiss any criticism as "self-loathing", "smearing" etc. That
way, almost anything could be dismissively cast aside and written
away! Where's the space then for critical thought and questioning
then?

As far as Radha's point on the RSS goes, I saw it differently. He was
merely pointing out to their hypocrisy -- talk about "patriotism" but
not do something like join the army and risk getting killed
themselves. In other words, ahem, something like skin-deep patriotism!

While I don't agree entirely with Gracias, and believe some of the
comparisons (with Japan, Turkey) might not be apt, because our history
has been so different, he does through up an interesting challenge to
think about.

FN

Frederick Noronha
+91-9822122436
+91-832-2409490

On 30 June 2010 02:34, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one
fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe. In this
article it looks like chauvinism is countered by self-loathing, using
a rather constricted definition of greatness and progress. If, as the
silly line of argument in this article suggests, the principal measure
of contribution to society is to join the army, then India has done
quite well. It has arguably the third largest army in the world, after
China and Russia.
But I am sure most readers of the article have more sense than to
believe any aspect of the cartoonish picture sketched by it.
Contributions to human civilization involve much more than military
prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more than even technological
advancement. There is language, art, music, dance, literature,
sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and numerous other areas
of human endeavor that characterize any culture and society. I would
like to know whether the author of the said article has thought about
them at all. His article certainly does not indicate he has. But if he
has or if he does so now, I would also like to know what kind of
objective method he would use to place India at the bottom of the pack
in these areas as well.
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics was
one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as
transformative as the` invention of calculus.
Jim Fernandes
2010-07-01 02:25:37 UTC
Permalink
I don't give much importance to the invention of "zero" by an ancient
Indian to arithmetic. If the decimal numbering system was the only
system humans used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.

The entire field of electronics and computer science uses binary,
octal or hexa-decimal numbering systems. Therefore, I feel the "zero"
would have been discovered by humans one way or another anyway.

The concept of "zero" is an ancient discovery. What else has been
discovered or invented by Indians in modern India?

Almost every Indian nobel winner in science I can think of, became
successful, only after they migrated out of the country.

Jim F
New York


Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 29, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Post by Santosh Helekar
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one
fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe.
...
...
...
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics
was one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as
transformative as the` invention of calculus.
Cheers,
Santosh
Frederick Noronha
2010-06-30 05:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Easy to dismiss any criticism as "self-loathing", "smearing" etc. That
way, almost anything could be dismissively cast aside and written
away! Where's the space then for critical thought and questioning
then?

As far as Radha's point on the RSS goes, I saw it differently. He was
merely pointing out to their hypocrisy -- talk about "patriotism" but
not do something like join the army and risk getting killed
themselves. In other words, ahem, something like skin-deep patriotism!

While I don't agree entirely with Gracias, and believe some of the
comparisons (with Japan, Turkey) might not be apt, because our history
has been so different, he does through up an interesting challenge to
think about.

FN

Frederick Noronha
+91-9822122436
+91-832-2409490

On 30 June 2010 02:34, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com> wrote:
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one
fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe. In this
article it looks like chauvinism is countered by self-loathing, using
a rather constricted definition of greatness and progress. If, as the
silly line of argument in this article suggests, the principal measure
of contribution to society is to join the army, then India has done
quite well. It has arguably the third largest army in the world, after
China and Russia.
But I am sure most readers of the article have more sense than to
believe any aspect of the cartoonish picture sketched by it.
Contributions to human civilization involve much more than military
prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more than even technological
advancement. There is language, art, music, dance, literature,
sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and numerous other areas
of human endeavor that characterize any culture and society. I would
like to know whether the author of the said article has thought about
them at all. His article certainly does not indicate he has. But if he
has or if he does so now, I would also like to know what kind of
objective method he would use to place India at the bottom of the pack
in these areas as well.
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics was
one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as
transformative as the` invention of calculus.
Jim Fernandes
2010-07-01 02:25:37 UTC
Permalink
I don't give much importance to the invention of "zero" by an ancient
Indian to arithmetic. If the decimal numbering system was the only
system humans used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.

The entire field of electronics and computer science uses binary,
octal or hexa-decimal numbering systems. Therefore, I feel the "zero"
would have been discovered by humans one way or another anyway.

The concept of "zero" is an ancient discovery. What else has been
discovered or invented by Indians in modern India?

Almost every Indian nobel winner in science I can think of, became
successful, only after they migrated out of the country.

Jim F
New York


Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 29, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Post by Santosh Helekar
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one
fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe.
...
...
...
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics
was one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as
transformative as the` invention of calculus.
Cheers,
Santosh
Frederick Noronha
2010-07-03 12:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
But I am sure most readers of the article have
more sense than to believe any aspect of the
cartoonish picture sketched by it. Contributions to human
civilization involve much more than military
prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more
than even technological advancement. There is
language, art, music, dance, literature,
sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and
numerous other areas of human endeavor that
The contribution of traditional societies to "modern" knowledge
remains understudied and not adequately acknowledged. Just came
across a journal which proposes to do this, Vigyan Bharati Pradeepika
"dedicated to identify and rediscover the original Indian science and
technology in a modern context". (rof Sureshwar Sharma, Udayachal,
1881, Gupteshwar, Jabalpur 482001 MP).

Quite some time ago, I attended (as a correspondent) a couple of
"traditional science congresses". These were held at the IIT-Bombay
and, if I recall right, the Anna University in Chennai. While there
was an element of mumbo-jumbo and unsubstantiated claims being made,
there were many amazing facts coming to light there too.

Nonetheless, whatever the achievements of the remote and recent past,
I feel we should always retain a critical element, and be willing to
accept criticism or counterviews. If it's true, then we need to face
up to it; if not, we can ignore it. At the very least, a challenge to
one's position is a kind of reality check. FN
Frederick Noronha
2010-07-03 12:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
But I am sure most readers of the article have
more sense than to believe any aspect of the
cartoonish picture sketched by it. Contributions to human
civilization involve much more than military
prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more
than even technological advancement. There is
language, art, music, dance, literature,
sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and
numerous other areas of human endeavor that
The contribution of traditional societies to "modern" knowledge
remains understudied and not adequately acknowledged. Just came
across a journal which proposes to do this, Vigyan Bharati Pradeepika
"dedicated to identify and rediscover the original Indian science and
technology in a modern context". (rof Sureshwar Sharma, Udayachal,
1881, Gupteshwar, Jabalpur 482001 MP).

Quite some time ago, I attended (as a correspondent) a couple of
"traditional science congresses". These were held at the IIT-Bombay
and, if I recall right, the Anna University in Chennai. While there
was an element of mumbo-jumbo and unsubstantiated claims being made,
there were many amazing facts coming to light there too.

Nonetheless, whatever the achievements of the remote and recent past,
I feel we should always retain a critical element, and be willing to
accept criticism or counterviews. If it's true, then we need to face
up to it; if not, we can ignore it. At the very least, a challenge to
one's position is a kind of reality check. FN
Frederick Noronha
2010-07-03 12:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
But I am sure most readers of the article have
more sense than to believe any aspect of the
cartoonish picture sketched by it. Contributions to human
civilization involve much more than military
prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more
than even technological advancement. There is
language, art, music, dance, literature,
sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and
numerous other areas of human endeavor that
The contribution of traditional societies to "modern" knowledge
remains understudied and not adequately acknowledged. Just came
across a journal which proposes to do this, Vigyan Bharati Pradeepika
"dedicated to identify and rediscover the original Indian science and
technology in a modern context". (rof Sureshwar Sharma, Udayachal,
1881, Gupteshwar, Jabalpur 482001 MP).

Quite some time ago, I attended (as a correspondent) a couple of
"traditional science congresses". These were held at the IIT-Bombay
and, if I recall right, the Anna University in Chennai. While there
was an element of mumbo-jumbo and unsubstantiated claims being made,
there were many amazing facts coming to light there too.

Nonetheless, whatever the achievements of the remote and recent past,
I feel we should always retain a critical element, and be willing to
accept criticism or counterviews. If it's true, then we need to face
up to it; if not, we can ignore it. At the very least, a challenge to
one's position is a kind of reality check. FN
Frederick Noronha
2010-07-03 12:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
But I am sure most readers of the article have
more sense than to believe any aspect of the
cartoonish picture sketched by it. Contributions to human
civilization involve much more than military
prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more
than even technological advancement. There is
language, art, music, dance, literature,
sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and
numerous other areas of human endeavor that
The contribution of traditional societies to "modern" knowledge
remains understudied and not adequately acknowledged. Just came
across a journal which proposes to do this, Vigyan Bharati Pradeepika
"dedicated to identify and rediscover the original Indian science and
technology in a modern context". (rof Sureshwar Sharma, Udayachal,
1881, Gupteshwar, Jabalpur 482001 MP).

Quite some time ago, I attended (as a correspondent) a couple of
"traditional science congresses". These were held at the IIT-Bombay
and, if I recall right, the Anna University in Chennai. While there
was an element of mumbo-jumbo and unsubstantiated claims being made,
there were many amazing facts coming to light there too.

Nonetheless, whatever the achievements of the remote and recent past,
I feel we should always retain a critical element, and be willing to
accept criticism or counterviews. If it's true, then we need to face
up to it; if not, we can ignore it. At the very least, a challenge to
one's position is a kind of reality check. FN
Amita Kanekar
2010-06-30 05:31:32 UTC
Permalink
I think the below article contains quite a few sweeping generalisations,
often misleading. To take just 2 sentences at the start, *Our history is
nothing but a record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the victim of invasions
and conquests as much as India has been.
*The second sentence is not true. The first sentence applies to many if not
most places of the world. Today's countries have been formed out of
conquests and other events of history; most regions/peoples of the world
have suffered invasions, conquests, subjugation and enslavement. India in
fact is known to have have not had much slavery as compared to Europe,
Africa and the Americas. And the invaders and other migrants who came to
India, from the Aryan-speaking peoples to the Mongols, did not all pillage
and ransack and leave, many settled down and became today's Indians (see
writings by Romila Thapar and others). And India did not compare so badly
with the rest of the world as a place to live right up to Mughal times,
European visitors have noted the conditions of the Indian peasants was not
much worse -- and was sometimes better -- than those at home (Bernier, etc).
Of course, this was not paradise. Caste dominated society, discrimination
was rampant, and there were few opportunities for those at the bottom of the
caste hierarchy to live well or freely, but, as various scholars have
pointed out, the mix of religious cultures in India thanks to the rule of
the Sultanate and Mughals over a majority-Hindu populace, meant that no one
religion could dominate, thus avoiding the savage religious wars of Europe.
It was only with arrival of the post-Renaissance Europeans that things
changed, and the conditions like you describe (in those 2 sentences) can be
said to have appeared. These Europeans were interested in only ransacking
and pillage, and not in living here. And India did remain in their control
longer than most parts of the world.
(I agree though that today's India has huge problems, I think many of them
are connected to our caste culture.)
Post by Goanet Reader
We are not great, we have to strive to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias
It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
gave the classic reply which immortalized him. The reply: "My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin. He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.
We, as a people, seem to have the highest regard
for Chauvin and have mastered the art of
chauvinism. If chauvinism were to be declared as a
sport, India would sweep all medals at the
Olympics. A symptom of our chauvinism is apparent
in the oft repeated slogan "Mera Bharat Mahan" (My
India is great). The question that arises, is it
really so?
There has been no greatness about our country, not in the
last two thousand years or so. Our history is nothing but a
record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the
victim of invasions and conquests as much as India has been.
The Huns, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Mongols or whosoever
have simply marched into the country pillaged and ransacked.
As a consequence of our cowardice and failure to defend
ourselves, invaders who marched in at will, marched out with
booty and tens of thousands of Indians as slaves. The poor
underfed vegetarians from the plains were driven ruthlessly
over the mountains of Afghanistan, where they died "like
flies", as history records. The mountains themselves came to
be known as Hindu Kush Mountains. Hindu Kush does not mean
Hindu happy; it means Hindu killer, in the local language.
Geographically, the country was by far the most defensible
against battle technology available in those days. The
Himalayas form a huge bulwark towards the north. No invader,
has crossed the Himalayas into India until the Chinese 1962.
The eastern borders with Burma are rugged hills. No invader
had come, from the East, until the Japanese advanced over
7,000 kms from their island home to reach Kohima during the
Second World War. The South has a vast ocean around it. No
invader entered from the sea till Afonso de Albuquerque
conquered Goa in the sixteenth century.
All previous invasions into the country were
overland from the West. And there were just two
routes of entry into the country; the Bolan Pass
and the Khyber pass. Most of the invaders poured in
through the Khyber pass which is about thirty four
kilometers long and in places only three metres
wide. There was no other entry point into the
country. However it never occurred to our
countrymen to fortify the passes and permanently
block access to invaders.
In this context, I am reminded of the designer advertisements
being released by the Indian army inviting fellow Indians to
join the army. The advertisements are couched in a language
which practically seem to suggest that the Indian army is a
five star hotel with all sorts of facilities for those who
join it. Despite such enticing advertisements, the shortage
of manpower in the army has mounted to fourteen thousand
officers.
If we have to join the army there is only one reason to do
so; and that is because the country needs the soldiers to
defend it. It is here that patriotism comes in. No other
reason is required. One point two billion people and we are
running short of fourteen thousand officers. Can you beat
that?
I have seen how when the Government of Goa announces
vacancies for police sub inspectors, thousands of Goans apply
and are known to have paid "bribe price" of up to
Rs.15,00,000 to be selected. I understand that shortly
another batch of sub inspectors is to be recruited. The
"bribe price" has reportedly touched Rs.25,00,000.
Mark my words, there would be thousands, seeking to pull
strings and willing to pay the "bribe price" to be selected.
None of these applicants for PSIs would go anywhere near an
army selection camp where one would be gladly and freely
selected. Who wants to be at risk of being killed in the
battlefront when it is much easier to make a "killing" in the
police force? That's our patriotism.
I often wonder about the Sangh Parivar which today seems to
hold a monopoly on patriotism. The RSS itself claims a
membership of over twenty five million cadres who dressed in
khaki are frequently seen marching in military formation. The
Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene and the VHP have their tough-looking
volunteers who have unleashed their 'patriotism' in Gujarat,
Karnataka and not very long ago at Fontainhas in Panaji too.
So presumably, the Sangh Parivar is full of young energetic
country men willing to defendant the country's honour.
That being so, why does the RSS and its sister
organizations not hold camps of its patriotic
sevaks and call upon the army, to select from its
cadre? The army should be easily able to enroll
fourteen thousand officers from among the twenty
five million 'pathetic' swayam sevaks. Will the RSS
at least now prove its patriotism and provides its
cadres for recruitment into the army? It is time
that the Sangh Parivar cadres display their
patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where
the threat lies.
Our self-belief in our greatness is unfounded and the cause
of our downfall. We do not become great through self
proclamation. The rest of the world has to acknowledge our
greatness. No one does so. There is not a single field of
human endeavour where we are anywhere near the top. There is
not a single field of human endeavour where we are not near
the bottom.
Our self-glorification is not a new phenomenon. Alberuni
traveling through India in the eleventh century writes about
According to their belief, there is no other
country on earth but theirs, no other race of man
but theirs, and no created beings besides them have
any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their
haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any
science or scholar in Kurasan and Persis, they will
think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If
they traveled and mixed with other nations, they
would soon change their mind, for their ancestors
were not as narrow-minded as the present generation
is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a
passage where he calls on the people to honour the
Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be
honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and
therein excelled others."
Nothing seems to have changed over the last millennium.
We were not alone in proclaiming our greatness. Until the
middle of the nineteenth century the Japanese were as insular
as us and had their own version of Hindutva. The Japanese
closed their ports to foreign trade. Western nations demanded
the right to trade. The Japanese refused to concede. French,
American, Dutch and British forces bombarded Japanese ports
and within a few days the Japanese navy was routed. Japan
conceded all the demands and opened its ports. Unlike us, the
Japanese did not take the defeat lying down. The Japanese
accepted that the West was far more advanced.
The Japanese people were unnerved by the unexpected defeat.
The Japanese shogun united behind the emperor Mejid Matsuhito
and handed over all powers to him so that Japan could advance
"and be able to rank equally with other Nations of the
World". The year was 1867.
Soon, great numbers of Japanese, delegations from
every craft, every city in the land, were touring
London, Paris, New York and other world centres,
behaving with the impeccable good manners so little
in evidence in foreigners who had visited Japan.
And now Japanese industrial revolution began to
speed, during this second half of the Emperor
Meiji's long reign. Factories sprang up like
mushrooms, and the ships which had so shocked and
impressed the Japanese in 1853 and which they
subsequently ordered, one by one, from the Western
world, began to be made, even faster, in Japanese
yards. The foreign monopoly of the crowded and
important steamship trade between Japan and China
was broken by a thrusting, new,
government-sponsored "Japan Mail Line". A
Western-style army and navy began to grow.
Japan was at last established as the equal of any
nation; but there was no resting on laurels. The
visits of beaming, polite, little men all over
Europe and the United States, absorbing silently
and with absolute accuracy everything they saw and
heard, went on, encouraged as before by the
emperor. Meiji journeyed widely himself, setting a
novel precedent and coming back regularly to his
domains with plans for still more improvement,
expansion in education, science, industry."
The Japanese have since emerged as the second largest economy
on earth. The Japanese have also improved physically. The
average height of a twenty one year old Japanese has
increased by twenty centimeters post Second World War. This
additional height is jokingly referred to as "hamburger
height" since it is attributed to the Japanese change to
American food habits.
Turkey, on the western frontiers of Asia had dominated the
world for nearly seven centuries. However, as the West
advanced, Turkey stagnated and came to be called the sick man
of Europe. At this time the Turks had a great fortune to see
the emergence of Kemal Attaturk who understood the cause for
the backwardness of Turkey. He united Turkey and was
determined to modernize the Nation on western lines.
"To make Turkey a strong, independent, modernized country was
now the goal. Through the National Assembly he bulldozed a
unanimous vote abolishing the Sultanate. Religion he saw as
the great enemy to progress, and as long as there was a
caliph he himself was not supreme and could not free the
people from superstition. In March, 1924, Abdul Meji was sent
packing and the State was secularized.
"There was great and growing opposition. But Kemal was utterly
ruthless. Gradually he established himself as absolute
dictator. With paternal rigour he then gave his people what
he though they needed. The fez, the symbol of the Ottoman
past, was abolished and its wearing made a crime. Monasteries
were closed, their inmates turned out to work or starve.
"Commercial, penal and civil codes were imported from abroad
and antiquated Moslem laws were swept. The metric system was
introduced and the Gregorian calendar. Polygamy was abolished
and women were given equal rights with men. Down to the
smallest detail of social life, time honoured habits were
hacked away and in the clearing made the Turk was set on his
feet and told to behave like a modern man.
"But only two or three per cent of the people were literate
and this was partly due to the inadequacy of Arabic
characters for writing Turkish. In 1928 Kemal, substituted
the Latin alphabet and toured the country teaching the new
signs."
The tragedy of our country is that we are yet to
find our emperor Meji or Kemal Attaturk.
Superstition wrapped in ritual continues to hold
sway. As custom. As tradition. As religion. No
leader or political party has the courage to
challenge superstition.
We are still lost in the back woods since we refuse to
acknowledge our own weaknesses and correct them as the
Japanese or Turks have done. We have to admit that we are a
cesspool of superstitions and corruptions, dishonesty and
deceit. We have stagnated and failed to evolve and advance.
Our contribution to civilization, (and it cannot be disputed)
is "zero". No pun intended. We have become the coelacanth, of
civilization. We are not great. We have to strive to be great.
[The author is a South Goa lawyer, and former member of the
Goa legislative assembly, known for his forthright, if
sometimes controversial, views. Feedback can be sent to him
via carlosnoronha at yahoo.com ]
Santosh Helekar
2010-06-30 06:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Thoughtful valid self-criticism is always welcome. Indeed it is essential for any kind of progress to occur. It is a hallmark of rational thought and scientific inquiry. But the article in question has very little to offer in this vein.

On the contrary, as Amita Kanekar so nicely pointed out, it consists almost entirely of sweeping generalizations and inaccurate exaggerations, whose main purpose is polemical, to counter the jingoism on the opposite political fringe, namely that of RSS and other Hindu nationalists. It is the tired old self-loathing of the left against the nauseating chauvinism of the right.

Smearing is something else, which fortunately this article does not do. Smearing involves the making of baseless slanderous accusations against individuals or communities in public forums. Good examples of smearing can be found in an article entitled "Skin-deep Secularism" written by Admin Noronha in Herald last year.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick Noronha
Easy to dismiss any criticism as
"self-loathing", "smearing" etc. That
way, almost anything could be dismissively cast aside
and written
away! Where's the space then for critical thought and
questioning
then?
As far as Radha's point on the RSS goes, I saw it
differently. He was
merely pointing out to their hypocrisy -- talk about
"patriotism" but
not do something like join the army and risk getting
killed
themselves. In other words, ahem, something like skin-deep
patriotism!
While I don't agree entirely with Gracias, and believe some
of the
comparisons (with Japan, Turkey) might not be apt, because
our history
has been so different, he does through up an interesting
challenge to
think about.
FN
manuel tavares
2010-07-01 00:41:07 UTC
Permalink
What a superb , well thought, balances and truthfully analytic portrayal of ourselves. People across the whole Political, Social and Cultural spectrum of Indian society ought to read this and draw inspiration from the pearls of wisdom which are thrown here as a challenge to Indians one and all to look deeply into ourselves and instead of basking in false glory of what we consider to be our superiority, consider our folly instead and act now to reverse the trend. We should venture out seeking innovations in Science, Medicine, Engineering and all other fields applying them to better our lives, ridding ourselves of antiquated customs and superstitions which are constantly pushing us down and embrace modern Western ideas if we are ever to emerge as a World Power. China is Growing faster than ever and will soon be a dominant force in world affairs. The Chinese are already looking forward towards an even more sustained and prosperous future by investing in energy, and commodities not only internally but internationally with a view to guaranteeing their future growth, while we in India continue destruction of our environment and exporting our Iron Ore and other commodities to China. Why cannot we utilize these ourselves and ensure our own Growth. Selfishness Corruption and Greed are consuming us wholesale and this will lead to the destruction of India and may lead in future to the invasion of India by China who will see no obstacles in their way. Our Indian Army cannot even get enough recruits to fulfill its current commitments do you think that if we continue on this current course, we will have enough to defend ourselves in the future?

Manuel (Eddie) Tavares.
Goanet Reader
2010-06-29 19:05:22 UTC
Permalink
We are not great, we have to strive to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias

It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
gave the classic reply which immortalized him. The reply: "My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin. He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.

We, as a people, seem to have the highest regard
for Chauvin and have mastered the art of
chauvinism. If chauvinism were to be declared as a
sport, India would sweep all medals at the
Olympics. A symptom of our chauvinism is apparent
in the oft repeated slogan "Mera Bharat Mahan" (My
India is great). The question that arises, is it
really so?

There has been no greatness about our country, not in the
last two thousand years or so. Our history is nothing but a
record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the
victim of invasions and conquests as much as India has been.
The Huns, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Mongols or whosoever
have simply marched into the country pillaged and ransacked.

As a consequence of our cowardice and failure to defend
ourselves, invaders who marched in at will, marched out with
booty and tens of thousands of Indians as slaves. The poor
underfed vegetarians from the plains were driven ruthlessly
over the mountains of Afghanistan, where they died "like
flies", as history records. The mountains themselves came to
be known as Hindu Kush Mountains. Hindu Kush does not mean
Hindu happy; it means Hindu killer, in the local language.

Geographically, the country was by far the most defensible
against battle technology available in those days. The
Himalayas form a huge bulwark towards the north. No invader,
has crossed the Himalayas into India until the Chinese 1962.

The eastern borders with Burma are rugged hills. No invader
had come, from the East, until the Japanese advanced over
7,000 kms from their island home to reach Kohima during the
Second World War. The South has a vast ocean around it. No
invader entered from the sea till Afonso de Albuquerque
conquered Goa in the sixteenth century.

All previous invasions into the country were
overland from the West. And there were just two
routes of entry into the country; the Bolan Pass
and the Khyber pass. Most of the invaders poured in
through the Khyber pass which is about thirty four
kilometers long and in places only three metres
wide. There was no other entry point into the
country. However it never occurred to our
countrymen to fortify the passes and permanently
block access to invaders.

In this context, I am reminded of the designer advertisements
being released by the Indian army inviting fellow Indians to
join the army. The advertisements are couched in a language
which practically seem to suggest that the Indian army is a
five star hotel with all sorts of facilities for those who
join it. Despite such enticing advertisements, the shortage
of manpower in the army has mounted to fourteen thousand
officers.

If we have to join the army there is only one reason to do
so; and that is because the country needs the soldiers to
defend it. It is here that patriotism comes in. No other
reason is required. One point two billion people and we are
running short of fourteen thousand officers. Can you beat
that?

I have seen how when the Government of Goa announces
vacancies for police sub inspectors, thousands of Goans apply
and are known to have paid "bribe price" of up to
Rs.15,00,000 to be selected. I understand that shortly
another batch of sub inspectors is to be recruited. The
"bribe price" has reportedly touched Rs.25,00,000.

Mark my words, there would be thousands, seeking to pull
strings and willing to pay the "bribe price" to be selected.
None of these applicants for PSIs would go anywhere near an
army selection camp where one would be gladly and freely
selected. Who wants to be at risk of being killed in the
battlefront when it is much easier to make a "killing" in the
police force? That's our patriotism.

I often wonder about the Sangh Parivar which today seems to
hold a monopoly on patriotism. The RSS itself claims a
membership of over twenty five million cadres who dressed in
khaki are frequently seen marching in military formation. The
Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene and the VHP have their tough-looking
volunteers who have unleashed their 'patriotism' in Gujarat,
Karnataka and not very long ago at Fontainhas in Panaji too.
So presumably, the Sangh Parivar is full of young energetic
country men willing to defendant the country's honour.

That being so, why does the RSS and its sister
organizations not hold camps of its patriotic
sevaks and call upon the army, to select from its
cadre? The army should be easily able to enroll
fourteen thousand officers from among the twenty
five million 'pathetic' swayam sevaks. Will the RSS
at least now prove its patriotism and provides its
cadres for recruitment into the army? It is time
that the Sangh Parivar cadres display their
patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where
the threat lies.

Our self-belief in our greatness is unfounded and the cause
of our downfall. We do not become great through self
proclamation. The rest of the world has to acknowledge our
greatness. No one does so. There is not a single field of
human endeavour where we are anywhere near the top. There is
not a single field of human endeavour where we are not near
the bottom.

Our self-glorification is not a new phenomenon. Alberuni
traveling through India in the eleventh century writes about
our countrymen:

According to their belief, there is no other
country on earth but theirs, no other race of man
but theirs, and no created beings besides them have
any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their
haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any
science or scholar in Kurasan and Persis, they will
think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If
they traveled and mixed with other nations, they
would soon change their mind, for their ancestors
were not as narrow-minded as the present generation
is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a
passage where he calls on the people to honour the
Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be
honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and
therein excelled others."

Nothing seems to have changed over the last millennium.

We were not alone in proclaiming our greatness. Until the
middle of the nineteenth century the Japanese were as insular
as us and had their own version of Hindutva. The Japanese
closed their ports to foreign trade. Western nations demanded
the right to trade. The Japanese refused to concede. French,
American, Dutch and British forces bombarded Japanese ports
and within a few days the Japanese navy was routed. Japan
conceded all the demands and opened its ports. Unlike us, the
Japanese did not take the defeat lying down. The Japanese
accepted that the West was far more advanced.

The Japanese people were unnerved by the unexpected defeat.
The Japanese shogun united behind the emperor Mejid Matsuhito
and handed over all powers to him so that Japan could advance
"and be able to rank equally with other Nations of the
World". The year was 1867.

Douglas Collier writing on what happened thereafter records :

Soon, great numbers of Japanese, delegations from
every craft, every city in the land, were touring
London, Paris, New York and other world centres,
behaving with the impeccable good manners so little
in evidence in foreigners who had visited Japan.

And now Japanese industrial revolution began to
speed, during this second half of the Emperor
Meiji's long reign. Factories sprang up like
mushrooms, and the ships which had so shocked and
impressed the Japanese in 1853 and which they
subsequently ordered, one by one, from the Western
world, began to be made, even faster, in Japanese
yards. The foreign monopoly of the crowded and
important steamship trade between Japan and China
was broken by a thrusting, new,
government-sponsored "Japan Mail Line". A
Western-style army and navy began to grow.

Japan was at last established as the equal of any
nation; but there was no resting on laurels. The
visits of beaming, polite, little men all over
Europe and the United States, absorbing silently
and with absolute accuracy everything they saw and
heard, went on, encouraged as before by the
emperor. Meiji journeyed widely himself, setting a
novel precedent and coming back regularly to his
domains with plans for still more improvement,
expansion in education, science, industry."

The Japanese have since emerged as the second largest economy
on earth. The Japanese have also improved physically. The
average height of a twenty one year old Japanese has
increased by twenty centimeters post Second World War. This
additional height is jokingly referred to as "hamburger
height" since it is attributed to the Japanese change to
American food habits.

Turkey, on the western frontiers of Asia had dominated the
world for nearly seven centuries. However, as the West
advanced, Turkey stagnated and came to be called the sick man
of Europe. At this time the Turks had a great fortune to see
the emergence of Kemal Attaturk who understood the cause for
the backwardness of Turkey. He united Turkey and was
determined to modernize the Nation on western lines.

Lawrence Wilson writes:

"To make Turkey a strong, independent, modernized country was
now the goal. Through the National Assembly he bulldozed a
unanimous vote abolishing the Sultanate. Religion he saw as
the great enemy to progress, and as long as there was a
caliph he himself was not supreme and could not free the
people from superstition. In March, 1924, Abdul Meji was sent
packing and the State was secularized.

"There was great and growing opposition. But Kemal was utterly
ruthless. Gradually he established himself as absolute
dictator. With paternal rigour he then gave his people what
he though they needed. The fez, the symbol of the Ottoman
past, was abolished and its wearing made a crime. Monasteries
were closed, their inmates turned out to work or starve.

"Commercial, penal and civil codes were imported from abroad
and antiquated Moslem laws were swept. The metric system was
introduced and the Gregorian calendar. Polygamy was abolished
and women were given equal rights with men. Down to the
smallest detail of social life, time honoured habits were
hacked away and in the clearing made the Turk was set on his
feet and told to behave like a modern man.

"But only two or three per cent of the people were literate
and this was partly due to the inadequacy of Arabic
characters for writing Turkish. In 1928 Kemal, substituted
the Latin alphabet and toured the country teaching the new
signs."

The tragedy of our country is that we are yet to
find our emperor Meji or Kemal Attaturk.
Superstition wrapped in ritual continues to hold
sway. As custom. As tradition. As religion. No
leader or political party has the courage to
challenge superstition.

We are still lost in the back woods since we refuse to
acknowledge our own weaknesses and correct them as the
Japanese or Turks have done. We have to admit that we are a
cesspool of superstitions and corruptions, dishonesty and
deceit. We have stagnated and failed to evolve and advance.

Our contribution to civilization, (and it cannot be disputed)
is "zero". No pun intended. We have become the coelacanth, of
civilization. We are not great. We have to strive to be great.

[The author is a South Goa lawyer, and former member of the
Goa legislative assembly, known for his forthright, if
sometimes controversial, views. Feedback can be sent to him
via carlosnoronha at yahoo.com ]
Santosh Helekar
2010-06-29 21:04:49 UTC
Permalink
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe. In this article it looks like chauvinism is countered by self-loathing, using a rather constricted definition of greatness and progress. If, as the silly line of argument in this article suggests, the principal measure of contribution to society is to join the army, then India has done quite well. It has arguably the third largest army in the world, after China and Russia.

But I am sure most readers of the article have more sense than to believe any aspect of the cartoonish picture sketched by it. Contributions to human
civilization involve much more than military prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more than even technological advancement. There is language, art, music, dance, literature, sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and numerous other areas of human endeavor that characterize any culture and society. I would like to know whether the author of the said article has thought about them at all. His article certainly does not indicate he has. But if he has or if he does so now, I would also like to know what kind of objective method he would use to place India at the bottom of the pack in these areas as well.

BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics was one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as transformative as the` invention of calculus.

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Also, encouraging or shaming the RSS and other Hindu extremists into joining the military would be the worst calamity anybody could wish upon India.
Post by Goanet Reader
We are not great, we have to strive
to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias
It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify
the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
"My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin.
He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.
Amita Kanekar
2010-06-30 05:31:32 UTC
Permalink
I think the below article contains quite a few sweeping generalisations,
often misleading. To take just 2 sentences at the start, *Our history is
nothing but a record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the victim of invasions
and conquests as much as India has been.
*The second sentence is not true. The first sentence applies to many if not
most places of the world. Today's countries have been formed out of
conquests and other events of history; most regions/peoples of the world
have suffered invasions, conquests, subjugation and enslavement. India in
fact is known to have have not had much slavery as compared to Europe,
Africa and the Americas. And the invaders and other migrants who came to
India, from the Aryan-speaking peoples to the Mongols, did not all pillage
and ransack and leave, many settled down and became today's Indians (see
writings by Romila Thapar and others). And India did not compare so badly
with the rest of the world as a place to live right up to Mughal times,
European visitors have noted the conditions of the Indian peasants was not
much worse -- and was sometimes better -- than those at home (Bernier, etc).
Of course, this was not paradise. Caste dominated society, discrimination
was rampant, and there were few opportunities for those at the bottom of the
caste hierarchy to live well or freely, but, as various scholars have
pointed out, the mix of religious cultures in India thanks to the rule of
the Sultanate and Mughals over a majority-Hindu populace, meant that no one
religion could dominate, thus avoiding the savage religious wars of Europe.
It was only with arrival of the post-Renaissance Europeans that things
changed, and the conditions like you describe (in those 2 sentences) can be
said to have appeared. These Europeans were interested in only ransacking
and pillage, and not in living here. And India did remain in their control
longer than most parts of the world.
(I agree though that today's India has huge problems, I think many of them
are connected to our caste culture.)
Post by Goanet Reader
We are not great, we have to strive to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias
It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
gave the classic reply which immortalized him. The reply: "My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin. He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.
We, as a people, seem to have the highest regard
for Chauvin and have mastered the art of
chauvinism. If chauvinism were to be declared as a
sport, India would sweep all medals at the
Olympics. A symptom of our chauvinism is apparent
in the oft repeated slogan "Mera Bharat Mahan" (My
India is great). The question that arises, is it
really so?
There has been no greatness about our country, not in the
last two thousand years or so. Our history is nothing but a
record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the
victim of invasions and conquests as much as India has been.
The Huns, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Mongols or whosoever
have simply marched into the country pillaged and ransacked.
As a consequence of our cowardice and failure to defend
ourselves, invaders who marched in at will, marched out with
booty and tens of thousands of Indians as slaves. The poor
underfed vegetarians from the plains were driven ruthlessly
over the mountains of Afghanistan, where they died "like
flies", as history records. The mountains themselves came to
be known as Hindu Kush Mountains. Hindu Kush does not mean
Hindu happy; it means Hindu killer, in the local language.
Geographically, the country was by far the most defensible
against battle technology available in those days. The
Himalayas form a huge bulwark towards the north. No invader,
has crossed the Himalayas into India until the Chinese 1962.
The eastern borders with Burma are rugged hills. No invader
had come, from the East, until the Japanese advanced over
7,000 kms from their island home to reach Kohima during the
Second World War. The South has a vast ocean around it. No
invader entered from the sea till Afonso de Albuquerque
conquered Goa in the sixteenth century.
All previous invasions into the country were
overland from the West. And there were just two
routes of entry into the country; the Bolan Pass
and the Khyber pass. Most of the invaders poured in
through the Khyber pass which is about thirty four
kilometers long and in places only three metres
wide. There was no other entry point into the
country. However it never occurred to our
countrymen to fortify the passes and permanently
block access to invaders.
In this context, I am reminded of the designer advertisements
being released by the Indian army inviting fellow Indians to
join the army. The advertisements are couched in a language
which practically seem to suggest that the Indian army is a
five star hotel with all sorts of facilities for those who
join it. Despite such enticing advertisements, the shortage
of manpower in the army has mounted to fourteen thousand
officers.
If we have to join the army there is only one reason to do
so; and that is because the country needs the soldiers to
defend it. It is here that patriotism comes in. No other
reason is required. One point two billion people and we are
running short of fourteen thousand officers. Can you beat
that?
I have seen how when the Government of Goa announces
vacancies for police sub inspectors, thousands of Goans apply
and are known to have paid "bribe price" of up to
Rs.15,00,000 to be selected. I understand that shortly
another batch of sub inspectors is to be recruited. The
"bribe price" has reportedly touched Rs.25,00,000.
Mark my words, there would be thousands, seeking to pull
strings and willing to pay the "bribe price" to be selected.
None of these applicants for PSIs would go anywhere near an
army selection camp where one would be gladly and freely
selected. Who wants to be at risk of being killed in the
battlefront when it is much easier to make a "killing" in the
police force? That's our patriotism.
I often wonder about the Sangh Parivar which today seems to
hold a monopoly on patriotism. The RSS itself claims a
membership of over twenty five million cadres who dressed in
khaki are frequently seen marching in military formation. The
Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene and the VHP have their tough-looking
volunteers who have unleashed their 'patriotism' in Gujarat,
Karnataka and not very long ago at Fontainhas in Panaji too.
So presumably, the Sangh Parivar is full of young energetic
country men willing to defendant the country's honour.
That being so, why does the RSS and its sister
organizations not hold camps of its patriotic
sevaks and call upon the army, to select from its
cadre? The army should be easily able to enroll
fourteen thousand officers from among the twenty
five million 'pathetic' swayam sevaks. Will the RSS
at least now prove its patriotism and provides its
cadres for recruitment into the army? It is time
that the Sangh Parivar cadres display their
patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where
the threat lies.
Our self-belief in our greatness is unfounded and the cause
of our downfall. We do not become great through self
proclamation. The rest of the world has to acknowledge our
greatness. No one does so. There is not a single field of
human endeavour where we are anywhere near the top. There is
not a single field of human endeavour where we are not near
the bottom.
Our self-glorification is not a new phenomenon. Alberuni
traveling through India in the eleventh century writes about
According to their belief, there is no other
country on earth but theirs, no other race of man
but theirs, and no created beings besides them have
any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their
haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any
science or scholar in Kurasan and Persis, they will
think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If
they traveled and mixed with other nations, they
would soon change their mind, for their ancestors
were not as narrow-minded as the present generation
is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a
passage where he calls on the people to honour the
Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be
honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and
therein excelled others."
Nothing seems to have changed over the last millennium.
We were not alone in proclaiming our greatness. Until the
middle of the nineteenth century the Japanese were as insular
as us and had their own version of Hindutva. The Japanese
closed their ports to foreign trade. Western nations demanded
the right to trade. The Japanese refused to concede. French,
American, Dutch and British forces bombarded Japanese ports
and within a few days the Japanese navy was routed. Japan
conceded all the demands and opened its ports. Unlike us, the
Japanese did not take the defeat lying down. The Japanese
accepted that the West was far more advanced.
The Japanese people were unnerved by the unexpected defeat.
The Japanese shogun united behind the emperor Mejid Matsuhito
and handed over all powers to him so that Japan could advance
"and be able to rank equally with other Nations of the
World". The year was 1867.
Soon, great numbers of Japanese, delegations from
every craft, every city in the land, were touring
London, Paris, New York and other world centres,
behaving with the impeccable good manners so little
in evidence in foreigners who had visited Japan.
And now Japanese industrial revolution began to
speed, during this second half of the Emperor
Meiji's long reign. Factories sprang up like
mushrooms, and the ships which had so shocked and
impressed the Japanese in 1853 and which they
subsequently ordered, one by one, from the Western
world, began to be made, even faster, in Japanese
yards. The foreign monopoly of the crowded and
important steamship trade between Japan and China
was broken by a thrusting, new,
government-sponsored "Japan Mail Line". A
Western-style army and navy began to grow.
Japan was at last established as the equal of any
nation; but there was no resting on laurels. The
visits of beaming, polite, little men all over
Europe and the United States, absorbing silently
and with absolute accuracy everything they saw and
heard, went on, encouraged as before by the
emperor. Meiji journeyed widely himself, setting a
novel precedent and coming back regularly to his
domains with plans for still more improvement,
expansion in education, science, industry."
The Japanese have since emerged as the second largest economy
on earth. The Japanese have also improved physically. The
average height of a twenty one year old Japanese has
increased by twenty centimeters post Second World War. This
additional height is jokingly referred to as "hamburger
height" since it is attributed to the Japanese change to
American food habits.
Turkey, on the western frontiers of Asia had dominated the
world for nearly seven centuries. However, as the West
advanced, Turkey stagnated and came to be called the sick man
of Europe. At this time the Turks had a great fortune to see
the emergence of Kemal Attaturk who understood the cause for
the backwardness of Turkey. He united Turkey and was
determined to modernize the Nation on western lines.
"To make Turkey a strong, independent, modernized country was
now the goal. Through the National Assembly he bulldozed a
unanimous vote abolishing the Sultanate. Religion he saw as
the great enemy to progress, and as long as there was a
caliph he himself was not supreme and could not free the
people from superstition. In March, 1924, Abdul Meji was sent
packing and the State was secularized.
"There was great and growing opposition. But Kemal was utterly
ruthless. Gradually he established himself as absolute
dictator. With paternal rigour he then gave his people what
he though they needed. The fez, the symbol of the Ottoman
past, was abolished and its wearing made a crime. Monasteries
were closed, their inmates turned out to work or starve.
"Commercial, penal and civil codes were imported from abroad
and antiquated Moslem laws were swept. The metric system was
introduced and the Gregorian calendar. Polygamy was abolished
and women were given equal rights with men. Down to the
smallest detail of social life, time honoured habits were
hacked away and in the clearing made the Turk was set on his
feet and told to behave like a modern man.
"But only two or three per cent of the people were literate
and this was partly due to the inadequacy of Arabic
characters for writing Turkish. In 1928 Kemal, substituted
the Latin alphabet and toured the country teaching the new
signs."
The tragedy of our country is that we are yet to
find our emperor Meji or Kemal Attaturk.
Superstition wrapped in ritual continues to hold
sway. As custom. As tradition. As religion. No
leader or political party has the courage to
challenge superstition.
We are still lost in the back woods since we refuse to
acknowledge our own weaknesses and correct them as the
Japanese or Turks have done. We have to admit that we are a
cesspool of superstitions and corruptions, dishonesty and
deceit. We have stagnated and failed to evolve and advance.
Our contribution to civilization, (and it cannot be disputed)
is "zero". No pun intended. We have become the coelacanth, of
civilization. We are not great. We have to strive to be great.
[The author is a South Goa lawyer, and former member of the
Goa legislative assembly, known for his forthright, if
sometimes controversial, views. Feedback can be sent to him
via carlosnoronha at yahoo.com ]
Santosh Helekar
2010-06-30 06:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Thoughtful valid self-criticism is always welcome. Indeed it is essential for any kind of progress to occur. It is a hallmark of rational thought and scientific inquiry. But the article in question has very little to offer in this vein.

On the contrary, as Amita Kanekar so nicely pointed out, it consists almost entirely of sweeping generalizations and inaccurate exaggerations, whose main purpose is polemical, to counter the jingoism on the opposite political fringe, namely that of RSS and other Hindu nationalists. It is the tired old self-loathing of the left against the nauseating chauvinism of the right.

Smearing is something else, which fortunately this article does not do. Smearing involves the making of baseless slanderous accusations against individuals or communities in public forums. Good examples of smearing can be found in an article entitled "Skin-deep Secularism" written by Admin Noronha in Herald last year.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick Noronha
Easy to dismiss any criticism as
"self-loathing", "smearing" etc. That
way, almost anything could be dismissively cast aside
and written
away! Where's the space then for critical thought and
questioning
then?
As far as Radha's point on the RSS goes, I saw it
differently. He was
merely pointing out to their hypocrisy -- talk about
"patriotism" but
not do something like join the army and risk getting
killed
themselves. In other words, ahem, something like skin-deep
patriotism!
While I don't agree entirely with Gracias, and believe some
of the
comparisons (with Japan, Turkey) might not be apt, because
our history
has been so different, he does through up an interesting
challenge to
think about.
FN
manuel tavares
2010-07-01 00:41:07 UTC
Permalink
What a superb , well thought, balances and truthfully analytic portrayal of ourselves. People across the whole Political, Social and Cultural spectrum of Indian society ought to read this and draw inspiration from the pearls of wisdom which are thrown here as a challenge to Indians one and all to look deeply into ourselves and instead of basking in false glory of what we consider to be our superiority, consider our folly instead and act now to reverse the trend. We should venture out seeking innovations in Science, Medicine, Engineering and all other fields applying them to better our lives, ridding ourselves of antiquated customs and superstitions which are constantly pushing us down and embrace modern Western ideas if we are ever to emerge as a World Power. China is Growing faster than ever and will soon be a dominant force in world affairs. The Chinese are already looking forward towards an even more sustained and prosperous future by investing in energy, and commodities not only internally but internationally with a view to guaranteeing their future growth, while we in India continue destruction of our environment and exporting our Iron Ore and other commodities to China. Why cannot we utilize these ourselves and ensure our own Growth. Selfishness Corruption and Greed are consuming us wholesale and this will lead to the destruction of India and may lead in future to the invasion of India by China who will see no obstacles in their way. Our Indian Army cannot even get enough recruits to fulfill its current commitments do you think that if we continue on this current course, we will have enough to defend ourselves in the future?

Manuel (Eddie) Tavares.
Goanet Reader
2010-06-29 19:05:22 UTC
Permalink
We are not great, we have to strive to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias

It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
gave the classic reply which immortalized him. The reply: "My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin. He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.

We, as a people, seem to have the highest regard
for Chauvin and have mastered the art of
chauvinism. If chauvinism were to be declared as a
sport, India would sweep all medals at the
Olympics. A symptom of our chauvinism is apparent
in the oft repeated slogan "Mera Bharat Mahan" (My
India is great). The question that arises, is it
really so?

There has been no greatness about our country, not in the
last two thousand years or so. Our history is nothing but a
record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the
victim of invasions and conquests as much as India has been.
The Huns, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Mongols or whosoever
have simply marched into the country pillaged and ransacked.

As a consequence of our cowardice and failure to defend
ourselves, invaders who marched in at will, marched out with
booty and tens of thousands of Indians as slaves. The poor
underfed vegetarians from the plains were driven ruthlessly
over the mountains of Afghanistan, where they died "like
flies", as history records. The mountains themselves came to
be known as Hindu Kush Mountains. Hindu Kush does not mean
Hindu happy; it means Hindu killer, in the local language.

Geographically, the country was by far the most defensible
against battle technology available in those days. The
Himalayas form a huge bulwark towards the north. No invader,
has crossed the Himalayas into India until the Chinese 1962.

The eastern borders with Burma are rugged hills. No invader
had come, from the East, until the Japanese advanced over
7,000 kms from their island home to reach Kohima during the
Second World War. The South has a vast ocean around it. No
invader entered from the sea till Afonso de Albuquerque
conquered Goa in the sixteenth century.

All previous invasions into the country were
overland from the West. And there were just two
routes of entry into the country; the Bolan Pass
and the Khyber pass. Most of the invaders poured in
through the Khyber pass which is about thirty four
kilometers long and in places only three metres
wide. There was no other entry point into the
country. However it never occurred to our
countrymen to fortify the passes and permanently
block access to invaders.

In this context, I am reminded of the designer advertisements
being released by the Indian army inviting fellow Indians to
join the army. The advertisements are couched in a language
which practically seem to suggest that the Indian army is a
five star hotel with all sorts of facilities for those who
join it. Despite such enticing advertisements, the shortage
of manpower in the army has mounted to fourteen thousand
officers.

If we have to join the army there is only one reason to do
so; and that is because the country needs the soldiers to
defend it. It is here that patriotism comes in. No other
reason is required. One point two billion people and we are
running short of fourteen thousand officers. Can you beat
that?

I have seen how when the Government of Goa announces
vacancies for police sub inspectors, thousands of Goans apply
and are known to have paid "bribe price" of up to
Rs.15,00,000 to be selected. I understand that shortly
another batch of sub inspectors is to be recruited. The
"bribe price" has reportedly touched Rs.25,00,000.

Mark my words, there would be thousands, seeking to pull
strings and willing to pay the "bribe price" to be selected.
None of these applicants for PSIs would go anywhere near an
army selection camp where one would be gladly and freely
selected. Who wants to be at risk of being killed in the
battlefront when it is much easier to make a "killing" in the
police force? That's our patriotism.

I often wonder about the Sangh Parivar which today seems to
hold a monopoly on patriotism. The RSS itself claims a
membership of over twenty five million cadres who dressed in
khaki are frequently seen marching in military formation. The
Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene and the VHP have their tough-looking
volunteers who have unleashed their 'patriotism' in Gujarat,
Karnataka and not very long ago at Fontainhas in Panaji too.
So presumably, the Sangh Parivar is full of young energetic
country men willing to defendant the country's honour.

That being so, why does the RSS and its sister
organizations not hold camps of its patriotic
sevaks and call upon the army, to select from its
cadre? The army should be easily able to enroll
fourteen thousand officers from among the twenty
five million 'pathetic' swayam sevaks. Will the RSS
at least now prove its patriotism and provides its
cadres for recruitment into the army? It is time
that the Sangh Parivar cadres display their
patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where
the threat lies.

Our self-belief in our greatness is unfounded and the cause
of our downfall. We do not become great through self
proclamation. The rest of the world has to acknowledge our
greatness. No one does so. There is not a single field of
human endeavour where we are anywhere near the top. There is
not a single field of human endeavour where we are not near
the bottom.

Our self-glorification is not a new phenomenon. Alberuni
traveling through India in the eleventh century writes about
our countrymen:

According to their belief, there is no other
country on earth but theirs, no other race of man
but theirs, and no created beings besides them have
any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their
haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any
science or scholar in Kurasan and Persis, they will
think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If
they traveled and mixed with other nations, they
would soon change their mind, for their ancestors
were not as narrow-minded as the present generation
is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a
passage where he calls on the people to honour the
Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be
honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and
therein excelled others."

Nothing seems to have changed over the last millennium.

We were not alone in proclaiming our greatness. Until the
middle of the nineteenth century the Japanese were as insular
as us and had their own version of Hindutva. The Japanese
closed their ports to foreign trade. Western nations demanded
the right to trade. The Japanese refused to concede. French,
American, Dutch and British forces bombarded Japanese ports
and within a few days the Japanese navy was routed. Japan
conceded all the demands and opened its ports. Unlike us, the
Japanese did not take the defeat lying down. The Japanese
accepted that the West was far more advanced.

The Japanese people were unnerved by the unexpected defeat.
The Japanese shogun united behind the emperor Mejid Matsuhito
and handed over all powers to him so that Japan could advance
"and be able to rank equally with other Nations of the
World". The year was 1867.

Douglas Collier writing on what happened thereafter records :

Soon, great numbers of Japanese, delegations from
every craft, every city in the land, were touring
London, Paris, New York and other world centres,
behaving with the impeccable good manners so little
in evidence in foreigners who had visited Japan.

And now Japanese industrial revolution began to
speed, during this second half of the Emperor
Meiji's long reign. Factories sprang up like
mushrooms, and the ships which had so shocked and
impressed the Japanese in 1853 and which they
subsequently ordered, one by one, from the Western
world, began to be made, even faster, in Japanese
yards. The foreign monopoly of the crowded and
important steamship trade between Japan and China
was broken by a thrusting, new,
government-sponsored "Japan Mail Line". A
Western-style army and navy began to grow.

Japan was at last established as the equal of any
nation; but there was no resting on laurels. The
visits of beaming, polite, little men all over
Europe and the United States, absorbing silently
and with absolute accuracy everything they saw and
heard, went on, encouraged as before by the
emperor. Meiji journeyed widely himself, setting a
novel precedent and coming back regularly to his
domains with plans for still more improvement,
expansion in education, science, industry."

The Japanese have since emerged as the second largest economy
on earth. The Japanese have also improved physically. The
average height of a twenty one year old Japanese has
increased by twenty centimeters post Second World War. This
additional height is jokingly referred to as "hamburger
height" since it is attributed to the Japanese change to
American food habits.

Turkey, on the western frontiers of Asia had dominated the
world for nearly seven centuries. However, as the West
advanced, Turkey stagnated and came to be called the sick man
of Europe. At this time the Turks had a great fortune to see
the emergence of Kemal Attaturk who understood the cause for
the backwardness of Turkey. He united Turkey and was
determined to modernize the Nation on western lines.

Lawrence Wilson writes:

"To make Turkey a strong, independent, modernized country was
now the goal. Through the National Assembly he bulldozed a
unanimous vote abolishing the Sultanate. Religion he saw as
the great enemy to progress, and as long as there was a
caliph he himself was not supreme and could not free the
people from superstition. In March, 1924, Abdul Meji was sent
packing and the State was secularized.

"There was great and growing opposition. But Kemal was utterly
ruthless. Gradually he established himself as absolute
dictator. With paternal rigour he then gave his people what
he though they needed. The fez, the symbol of the Ottoman
past, was abolished and its wearing made a crime. Monasteries
were closed, their inmates turned out to work or starve.

"Commercial, penal and civil codes were imported from abroad
and antiquated Moslem laws were swept. The metric system was
introduced and the Gregorian calendar. Polygamy was abolished
and women were given equal rights with men. Down to the
smallest detail of social life, time honoured habits were
hacked away and in the clearing made the Turk was set on his
feet and told to behave like a modern man.

"But only two or three per cent of the people were literate
and this was partly due to the inadequacy of Arabic
characters for writing Turkish. In 1928 Kemal, substituted
the Latin alphabet and toured the country teaching the new
signs."

The tragedy of our country is that we are yet to
find our emperor Meji or Kemal Attaturk.
Superstition wrapped in ritual continues to hold
sway. As custom. As tradition. As religion. No
leader or political party has the courage to
challenge superstition.

We are still lost in the back woods since we refuse to
acknowledge our own weaknesses and correct them as the
Japanese or Turks have done. We have to admit that we are a
cesspool of superstitions and corruptions, dishonesty and
deceit. We have stagnated and failed to evolve and advance.

Our contribution to civilization, (and it cannot be disputed)
is "zero". No pun intended. We have become the coelacanth, of
civilization. We are not great. We have to strive to be great.

[The author is a South Goa lawyer, and former member of the
Goa legislative assembly, known for his forthright, if
sometimes controversial, views. Feedback can be sent to him
via carlosnoronha at yahoo.com ]
Santosh Helekar
2010-06-29 21:04:49 UTC
Permalink
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe. In this article it looks like chauvinism is countered by self-loathing, using a rather constricted definition of greatness and progress. If, as the silly line of argument in this article suggests, the principal measure of contribution to society is to join the army, then India has done quite well. It has arguably the third largest army in the world, after China and Russia.

But I am sure most readers of the article have more sense than to believe any aspect of the cartoonish picture sketched by it. Contributions to human
civilization involve much more than military prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more than even technological advancement. There is language, art, music, dance, literature, sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and numerous other areas of human endeavor that characterize any culture and society. I would like to know whether the author of the said article has thought about them at all. His article certainly does not indicate he has. But if he has or if he does so now, I would also like to know what kind of objective method he would use to place India at the bottom of the pack in these areas as well.

BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics was one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as transformative as the` invention of calculus.

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Also, encouraging or shaming the RSS and other Hindu extremists into joining the military would be the worst calamity anybody could wish upon India.
Post by Goanet Reader
We are not great, we have to strive
to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias
It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify
the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
"My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin.
He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.
Amita Kanekar
2010-06-30 05:31:32 UTC
Permalink
I think the below article contains quite a few sweeping generalisations,
often misleading. To take just 2 sentences at the start, *Our history is
nothing but a record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the victim of invasions
and conquests as much as India has been.
*The second sentence is not true. The first sentence applies to many if not
most places of the world. Today's countries have been formed out of
conquests and other events of history; most regions/peoples of the world
have suffered invasions, conquests, subjugation and enslavement. India in
fact is known to have have not had much slavery as compared to Europe,
Africa and the Americas. And the invaders and other migrants who came to
India, from the Aryan-speaking peoples to the Mongols, did not all pillage
and ransack and leave, many settled down and became today's Indians (see
writings by Romila Thapar and others). And India did not compare so badly
with the rest of the world as a place to live right up to Mughal times,
European visitors have noted the conditions of the Indian peasants was not
much worse -- and was sometimes better -- than those at home (Bernier, etc).
Of course, this was not paradise. Caste dominated society, discrimination
was rampant, and there were few opportunities for those at the bottom of the
caste hierarchy to live well or freely, but, as various scholars have
pointed out, the mix of religious cultures in India thanks to the rule of
the Sultanate and Mughals over a majority-Hindu populace, meant that no one
religion could dominate, thus avoiding the savage religious wars of Europe.
It was only with arrival of the post-Renaissance Europeans that things
changed, and the conditions like you describe (in those 2 sentences) can be
said to have appeared. These Europeans were interested in only ransacking
and pillage, and not in living here. And India did remain in their control
longer than most parts of the world.
(I agree though that today's India has huge problems, I think many of them
are connected to our caste culture.)
Post by Goanet Reader
We are not great, we have to strive to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias
It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
gave the classic reply which immortalized him. The reply: "My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin. He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.
We, as a people, seem to have the highest regard
for Chauvin and have mastered the art of
chauvinism. If chauvinism were to be declared as a
sport, India would sweep all medals at the
Olympics. A symptom of our chauvinism is apparent
in the oft repeated slogan "Mera Bharat Mahan" (My
India is great). The question that arises, is it
really so?
There has been no greatness about our country, not in the
last two thousand years or so. Our history is nothing but a
record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the
victim of invasions and conquests as much as India has been.
The Huns, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Mongols or whosoever
have simply marched into the country pillaged and ransacked.
As a consequence of our cowardice and failure to defend
ourselves, invaders who marched in at will, marched out with
booty and tens of thousands of Indians as slaves. The poor
underfed vegetarians from the plains were driven ruthlessly
over the mountains of Afghanistan, where they died "like
flies", as history records. The mountains themselves came to
be known as Hindu Kush Mountains. Hindu Kush does not mean
Hindu happy; it means Hindu killer, in the local language.
Geographically, the country was by far the most defensible
against battle technology available in those days. The
Himalayas form a huge bulwark towards the north. No invader,
has crossed the Himalayas into India until the Chinese 1962.
The eastern borders with Burma are rugged hills. No invader
had come, from the East, until the Japanese advanced over
7,000 kms from their island home to reach Kohima during the
Second World War. The South has a vast ocean around it. No
invader entered from the sea till Afonso de Albuquerque
conquered Goa in the sixteenth century.
All previous invasions into the country were
overland from the West. And there were just two
routes of entry into the country; the Bolan Pass
and the Khyber pass. Most of the invaders poured in
through the Khyber pass which is about thirty four
kilometers long and in places only three metres
wide. There was no other entry point into the
country. However it never occurred to our
countrymen to fortify the passes and permanently
block access to invaders.
In this context, I am reminded of the designer advertisements
being released by the Indian army inviting fellow Indians to
join the army. The advertisements are couched in a language
which practically seem to suggest that the Indian army is a
five star hotel with all sorts of facilities for those who
join it. Despite such enticing advertisements, the shortage
of manpower in the army has mounted to fourteen thousand
officers.
If we have to join the army there is only one reason to do
so; and that is because the country needs the soldiers to
defend it. It is here that patriotism comes in. No other
reason is required. One point two billion people and we are
running short of fourteen thousand officers. Can you beat
that?
I have seen how when the Government of Goa announces
vacancies for police sub inspectors, thousands of Goans apply
and are known to have paid "bribe price" of up to
Rs.15,00,000 to be selected. I understand that shortly
another batch of sub inspectors is to be recruited. The
"bribe price" has reportedly touched Rs.25,00,000.
Mark my words, there would be thousands, seeking to pull
strings and willing to pay the "bribe price" to be selected.
None of these applicants for PSIs would go anywhere near an
army selection camp where one would be gladly and freely
selected. Who wants to be at risk of being killed in the
battlefront when it is much easier to make a "killing" in the
police force? That's our patriotism.
I often wonder about the Sangh Parivar which today seems to
hold a monopoly on patriotism. The RSS itself claims a
membership of over twenty five million cadres who dressed in
khaki are frequently seen marching in military formation. The
Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene and the VHP have their tough-looking
volunteers who have unleashed their 'patriotism' in Gujarat,
Karnataka and not very long ago at Fontainhas in Panaji too.
So presumably, the Sangh Parivar is full of young energetic
country men willing to defendant the country's honour.
That being so, why does the RSS and its sister
organizations not hold camps of its patriotic
sevaks and call upon the army, to select from its
cadre? The army should be easily able to enroll
fourteen thousand officers from among the twenty
five million 'pathetic' swayam sevaks. Will the RSS
at least now prove its patriotism and provides its
cadres for recruitment into the army? It is time
that the Sangh Parivar cadres display their
patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where
the threat lies.
Our self-belief in our greatness is unfounded and the cause
of our downfall. We do not become great through self
proclamation. The rest of the world has to acknowledge our
greatness. No one does so. There is not a single field of
human endeavour where we are anywhere near the top. There is
not a single field of human endeavour where we are not near
the bottom.
Our self-glorification is not a new phenomenon. Alberuni
traveling through India in the eleventh century writes about
According to their belief, there is no other
country on earth but theirs, no other race of man
but theirs, and no created beings besides them have
any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their
haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any
science or scholar in Kurasan and Persis, they will
think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If
they traveled and mixed with other nations, they
would soon change their mind, for their ancestors
were not as narrow-minded as the present generation
is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a
passage where he calls on the people to honour the
Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be
honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and
therein excelled others."
Nothing seems to have changed over the last millennium.
We were not alone in proclaiming our greatness. Until the
middle of the nineteenth century the Japanese were as insular
as us and had their own version of Hindutva. The Japanese
closed their ports to foreign trade. Western nations demanded
the right to trade. The Japanese refused to concede. French,
American, Dutch and British forces bombarded Japanese ports
and within a few days the Japanese navy was routed. Japan
conceded all the demands and opened its ports. Unlike us, the
Japanese did not take the defeat lying down. The Japanese
accepted that the West was far more advanced.
The Japanese people were unnerved by the unexpected defeat.
The Japanese shogun united behind the emperor Mejid Matsuhito
and handed over all powers to him so that Japan could advance
"and be able to rank equally with other Nations of the
World". The year was 1867.
Soon, great numbers of Japanese, delegations from
every craft, every city in the land, were touring
London, Paris, New York and other world centres,
behaving with the impeccable good manners so little
in evidence in foreigners who had visited Japan.
And now Japanese industrial revolution began to
speed, during this second half of the Emperor
Meiji's long reign. Factories sprang up like
mushrooms, and the ships which had so shocked and
impressed the Japanese in 1853 and which they
subsequently ordered, one by one, from the Western
world, began to be made, even faster, in Japanese
yards. The foreign monopoly of the crowded and
important steamship trade between Japan and China
was broken by a thrusting, new,
government-sponsored "Japan Mail Line". A
Western-style army and navy began to grow.
Japan was at last established as the equal of any
nation; but there was no resting on laurels. The
visits of beaming, polite, little men all over
Europe and the United States, absorbing silently
and with absolute accuracy everything they saw and
heard, went on, encouraged as before by the
emperor. Meiji journeyed widely himself, setting a
novel precedent and coming back regularly to his
domains with plans for still more improvement,
expansion in education, science, industry."
The Japanese have since emerged as the second largest economy
on earth. The Japanese have also improved physically. The
average height of a twenty one year old Japanese has
increased by twenty centimeters post Second World War. This
additional height is jokingly referred to as "hamburger
height" since it is attributed to the Japanese change to
American food habits.
Turkey, on the western frontiers of Asia had dominated the
world for nearly seven centuries. However, as the West
advanced, Turkey stagnated and came to be called the sick man
of Europe. At this time the Turks had a great fortune to see
the emergence of Kemal Attaturk who understood the cause for
the backwardness of Turkey. He united Turkey and was
determined to modernize the Nation on western lines.
"To make Turkey a strong, independent, modernized country was
now the goal. Through the National Assembly he bulldozed a
unanimous vote abolishing the Sultanate. Religion he saw as
the great enemy to progress, and as long as there was a
caliph he himself was not supreme and could not free the
people from superstition. In March, 1924, Abdul Meji was sent
packing and the State was secularized.
"There was great and growing opposition. But Kemal was utterly
ruthless. Gradually he established himself as absolute
dictator. With paternal rigour he then gave his people what
he though they needed. The fez, the symbol of the Ottoman
past, was abolished and its wearing made a crime. Monasteries
were closed, their inmates turned out to work or starve.
"Commercial, penal and civil codes were imported from abroad
and antiquated Moslem laws were swept. The metric system was
introduced and the Gregorian calendar. Polygamy was abolished
and women were given equal rights with men. Down to the
smallest detail of social life, time honoured habits were
hacked away and in the clearing made the Turk was set on his
feet and told to behave like a modern man.
"But only two or three per cent of the people were literate
and this was partly due to the inadequacy of Arabic
characters for writing Turkish. In 1928 Kemal, substituted
the Latin alphabet and toured the country teaching the new
signs."
The tragedy of our country is that we are yet to
find our emperor Meji or Kemal Attaturk.
Superstition wrapped in ritual continues to hold
sway. As custom. As tradition. As religion. No
leader or political party has the courage to
challenge superstition.
We are still lost in the back woods since we refuse to
acknowledge our own weaknesses and correct them as the
Japanese or Turks have done. We have to admit that we are a
cesspool of superstitions and corruptions, dishonesty and
deceit. We have stagnated and failed to evolve and advance.
Our contribution to civilization, (and it cannot be disputed)
is "zero". No pun intended. We have become the coelacanth, of
civilization. We are not great. We have to strive to be great.
[The author is a South Goa lawyer, and former member of the
Goa legislative assembly, known for his forthright, if
sometimes controversial, views. Feedback can be sent to him
via carlosnoronha at yahoo.com ]
Santosh Helekar
2010-06-30 06:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Thoughtful valid self-criticism is always welcome. Indeed it is essential for any kind of progress to occur. It is a hallmark of rational thought and scientific inquiry. But the article in question has very little to offer in this vein.

On the contrary, as Amita Kanekar so nicely pointed out, it consists almost entirely of sweeping generalizations and inaccurate exaggerations, whose main purpose is polemical, to counter the jingoism on the opposite political fringe, namely that of RSS and other Hindu nationalists. It is the tired old self-loathing of the left against the nauseating chauvinism of the right.

Smearing is something else, which fortunately this article does not do. Smearing involves the making of baseless slanderous accusations against individuals or communities in public forums. Good examples of smearing can be found in an article entitled "Skin-deep Secularism" written by Admin Noronha in Herald last year.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick Noronha
Easy to dismiss any criticism as
"self-loathing", "smearing" etc. That
way, almost anything could be dismissively cast aside
and written
away! Where's the space then for critical thought and
questioning
then?
As far as Radha's point on the RSS goes, I saw it
differently. He was
merely pointing out to their hypocrisy -- talk about
"patriotism" but
not do something like join the army and risk getting
killed
themselves. In other words, ahem, something like skin-deep
patriotism!
While I don't agree entirely with Gracias, and believe some
of the
comparisons (with Japan, Turkey) might not be apt, because
our history
has been so different, he does through up an interesting
challenge to
think about.
FN
manuel tavares
2010-07-01 00:41:07 UTC
Permalink
What a superb , well thought, balances and truthfully analytic portrayal of ourselves. People across the whole Political, Social and Cultural spectrum of Indian society ought to read this and draw inspiration from the pearls of wisdom which are thrown here as a challenge to Indians one and all to look deeply into ourselves and instead of basking in false glory of what we consider to be our superiority, consider our folly instead and act now to reverse the trend. We should venture out seeking innovations in Science, Medicine, Engineering and all other fields applying them to better our lives, ridding ourselves of antiquated customs and superstitions which are constantly pushing us down and embrace modern Western ideas if we are ever to emerge as a World Power. China is Growing faster than ever and will soon be a dominant force in world affairs. The Chinese are already looking forward towards an even more sustained and prosperous future by investing in energy, and commodities not only internally but internationally with a view to guaranteeing their future growth, while we in India continue destruction of our environment and exporting our Iron Ore and other commodities to China. Why cannot we utilize these ourselves and ensure our own Growth. Selfishness Corruption and Greed are consuming us wholesale and this will lead to the destruction of India and may lead in future to the invasion of India by China who will see no obstacles in their way. Our Indian Army cannot even get enough recruits to fulfill its current commitments do you think that if we continue on this current course, we will have enough to defend ourselves in the future?

Manuel (Eddie) Tavares.
Goanet Reader
2010-06-29 19:05:22 UTC
Permalink
We are not great, we have to strive to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias

It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
gave the classic reply which immortalized him. The reply: "My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin. He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.

We, as a people, seem to have the highest regard
for Chauvin and have mastered the art of
chauvinism. If chauvinism were to be declared as a
sport, India would sweep all medals at the
Olympics. A symptom of our chauvinism is apparent
in the oft repeated slogan "Mera Bharat Mahan" (My
India is great). The question that arises, is it
really so?

There has been no greatness about our country, not in the
last two thousand years or so. Our history is nothing but a
record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the
victim of invasions and conquests as much as India has been.
The Huns, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Mongols or whosoever
have simply marched into the country pillaged and ransacked.

As a consequence of our cowardice and failure to defend
ourselves, invaders who marched in at will, marched out with
booty and tens of thousands of Indians as slaves. The poor
underfed vegetarians from the plains were driven ruthlessly
over the mountains of Afghanistan, where they died "like
flies", as history records. The mountains themselves came to
be known as Hindu Kush Mountains. Hindu Kush does not mean
Hindu happy; it means Hindu killer, in the local language.

Geographically, the country was by far the most defensible
against battle technology available in those days. The
Himalayas form a huge bulwark towards the north. No invader,
has crossed the Himalayas into India until the Chinese 1962.

The eastern borders with Burma are rugged hills. No invader
had come, from the East, until the Japanese advanced over
7,000 kms from their island home to reach Kohima during the
Second World War. The South has a vast ocean around it. No
invader entered from the sea till Afonso de Albuquerque
conquered Goa in the sixteenth century.

All previous invasions into the country were
overland from the West. And there were just two
routes of entry into the country; the Bolan Pass
and the Khyber pass. Most of the invaders poured in
through the Khyber pass which is about thirty four
kilometers long and in places only three metres
wide. There was no other entry point into the
country. However it never occurred to our
countrymen to fortify the passes and permanently
block access to invaders.

In this context, I am reminded of the designer advertisements
being released by the Indian army inviting fellow Indians to
join the army. The advertisements are couched in a language
which practically seem to suggest that the Indian army is a
five star hotel with all sorts of facilities for those who
join it. Despite such enticing advertisements, the shortage
of manpower in the army has mounted to fourteen thousand
officers.

If we have to join the army there is only one reason to do
so; and that is because the country needs the soldiers to
defend it. It is here that patriotism comes in. No other
reason is required. One point two billion people and we are
running short of fourteen thousand officers. Can you beat
that?

I have seen how when the Government of Goa announces
vacancies for police sub inspectors, thousands of Goans apply
and are known to have paid "bribe price" of up to
Rs.15,00,000 to be selected. I understand that shortly
another batch of sub inspectors is to be recruited. The
"bribe price" has reportedly touched Rs.25,00,000.

Mark my words, there would be thousands, seeking to pull
strings and willing to pay the "bribe price" to be selected.
None of these applicants for PSIs would go anywhere near an
army selection camp where one would be gladly and freely
selected. Who wants to be at risk of being killed in the
battlefront when it is much easier to make a "killing" in the
police force? That's our patriotism.

I often wonder about the Sangh Parivar which today seems to
hold a monopoly on patriotism. The RSS itself claims a
membership of over twenty five million cadres who dressed in
khaki are frequently seen marching in military formation. The
Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene and the VHP have their tough-looking
volunteers who have unleashed their 'patriotism' in Gujarat,
Karnataka and not very long ago at Fontainhas in Panaji too.
So presumably, the Sangh Parivar is full of young energetic
country men willing to defendant the country's honour.

That being so, why does the RSS and its sister
organizations not hold camps of its patriotic
sevaks and call upon the army, to select from its
cadre? The army should be easily able to enroll
fourteen thousand officers from among the twenty
five million 'pathetic' swayam sevaks. Will the RSS
at least now prove its patriotism and provides its
cadres for recruitment into the army? It is time
that the Sangh Parivar cadres display their
patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where
the threat lies.

Our self-belief in our greatness is unfounded and the cause
of our downfall. We do not become great through self
proclamation. The rest of the world has to acknowledge our
greatness. No one does so. There is not a single field of
human endeavour where we are anywhere near the top. There is
not a single field of human endeavour where we are not near
the bottom.

Our self-glorification is not a new phenomenon. Alberuni
traveling through India in the eleventh century writes about
our countrymen:

According to their belief, there is no other
country on earth but theirs, no other race of man
but theirs, and no created beings besides them have
any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their
haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any
science or scholar in Kurasan and Persis, they will
think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If
they traveled and mixed with other nations, they
would soon change their mind, for their ancestors
were not as narrow-minded as the present generation
is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a
passage where he calls on the people to honour the
Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be
honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and
therein excelled others."

Nothing seems to have changed over the last millennium.

We were not alone in proclaiming our greatness. Until the
middle of the nineteenth century the Japanese were as insular
as us and had their own version of Hindutva. The Japanese
closed their ports to foreign trade. Western nations demanded
the right to trade. The Japanese refused to concede. French,
American, Dutch and British forces bombarded Japanese ports
and within a few days the Japanese navy was routed. Japan
conceded all the demands and opened its ports. Unlike us, the
Japanese did not take the defeat lying down. The Japanese
accepted that the West was far more advanced.

The Japanese people were unnerved by the unexpected defeat.
The Japanese shogun united behind the emperor Mejid Matsuhito
and handed over all powers to him so that Japan could advance
"and be able to rank equally with other Nations of the
World". The year was 1867.

Douglas Collier writing on what happened thereafter records :

Soon, great numbers of Japanese, delegations from
every craft, every city in the land, were touring
London, Paris, New York and other world centres,
behaving with the impeccable good manners so little
in evidence in foreigners who had visited Japan.

And now Japanese industrial revolution began to
speed, during this second half of the Emperor
Meiji's long reign. Factories sprang up like
mushrooms, and the ships which had so shocked and
impressed the Japanese in 1853 and which they
subsequently ordered, one by one, from the Western
world, began to be made, even faster, in Japanese
yards. The foreign monopoly of the crowded and
important steamship trade between Japan and China
was broken by a thrusting, new,
government-sponsored "Japan Mail Line". A
Western-style army and navy began to grow.

Japan was at last established as the equal of any
nation; but there was no resting on laurels. The
visits of beaming, polite, little men all over
Europe and the United States, absorbing silently
and with absolute accuracy everything they saw and
heard, went on, encouraged as before by the
emperor. Meiji journeyed widely himself, setting a
novel precedent and coming back regularly to his
domains with plans for still more improvement,
expansion in education, science, industry."

The Japanese have since emerged as the second largest economy
on earth. The Japanese have also improved physically. The
average height of a twenty one year old Japanese has
increased by twenty centimeters post Second World War. This
additional height is jokingly referred to as "hamburger
height" since it is attributed to the Japanese change to
American food habits.

Turkey, on the western frontiers of Asia had dominated the
world for nearly seven centuries. However, as the West
advanced, Turkey stagnated and came to be called the sick man
of Europe. At this time the Turks had a great fortune to see
the emergence of Kemal Attaturk who understood the cause for
the backwardness of Turkey. He united Turkey and was
determined to modernize the Nation on western lines.

Lawrence Wilson writes:

"To make Turkey a strong, independent, modernized country was
now the goal. Through the National Assembly he bulldozed a
unanimous vote abolishing the Sultanate. Religion he saw as
the great enemy to progress, and as long as there was a
caliph he himself was not supreme and could not free the
people from superstition. In March, 1924, Abdul Meji was sent
packing and the State was secularized.

"There was great and growing opposition. But Kemal was utterly
ruthless. Gradually he established himself as absolute
dictator. With paternal rigour he then gave his people what
he though they needed. The fez, the symbol of the Ottoman
past, was abolished and its wearing made a crime. Monasteries
were closed, their inmates turned out to work or starve.

"Commercial, penal and civil codes were imported from abroad
and antiquated Moslem laws were swept. The metric system was
introduced and the Gregorian calendar. Polygamy was abolished
and women were given equal rights with men. Down to the
smallest detail of social life, time honoured habits were
hacked away and in the clearing made the Turk was set on his
feet and told to behave like a modern man.

"But only two or three per cent of the people were literate
and this was partly due to the inadequacy of Arabic
characters for writing Turkish. In 1928 Kemal, substituted
the Latin alphabet and toured the country teaching the new
signs."

The tragedy of our country is that we are yet to
find our emperor Meji or Kemal Attaturk.
Superstition wrapped in ritual continues to hold
sway. As custom. As tradition. As religion. No
leader or political party has the courage to
challenge superstition.

We are still lost in the back woods since we refuse to
acknowledge our own weaknesses and correct them as the
Japanese or Turks have done. We have to admit that we are a
cesspool of superstitions and corruptions, dishonesty and
deceit. We have stagnated and failed to evolve and advance.

Our contribution to civilization, (and it cannot be disputed)
is "zero". No pun intended. We have become the coelacanth, of
civilization. We are not great. We have to strive to be great.

[The author is a South Goa lawyer, and former member of the
Goa legislative assembly, known for his forthright, if
sometimes controversial, views. Feedback can be sent to him
via carlosnoronha at yahoo.com ]
Santosh Helekar
2010-06-29 21:04:49 UTC
Permalink
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe. In this article it looks like chauvinism is countered by self-loathing, using a rather constricted definition of greatness and progress. If, as the silly line of argument in this article suggests, the principal measure of contribution to society is to join the army, then India has done quite well. It has arguably the third largest army in the world, after China and Russia.

But I am sure most readers of the article have more sense than to believe any aspect of the cartoonish picture sketched by it. Contributions to human
civilization involve much more than military prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more than even technological advancement. There is language, art, music, dance, literature, sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and numerous other areas of human endeavor that characterize any culture and society. I would like to know whether the author of the said article has thought about them at all. His article certainly does not indicate he has. But if he has or if he does so now, I would also like to know what kind of objective method he would use to place India at the bottom of the pack in these areas as well.

BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics was one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as transformative as the` invention of calculus.

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Also, encouraging or shaming the RSS and other Hindu extremists into joining the military would be the worst calamity anybody could wish upon India.
Post by Goanet Reader
We are not great, we have to strive
to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias
It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify
the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
"My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin.
He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.
Amita Kanekar
2010-06-30 05:31:32 UTC
Permalink
I think the below article contains quite a few sweeping generalisations,
often misleading. To take just 2 sentences at the start, *Our history is
nothing but a record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the victim of invasions
and conquests as much as India has been.
*The second sentence is not true. The first sentence applies to many if not
most places of the world. Today's countries have been formed out of
conquests and other events of history; most regions/peoples of the world
have suffered invasions, conquests, subjugation and enslavement. India in
fact is known to have have not had much slavery as compared to Europe,
Africa and the Americas. And the invaders and other migrants who came to
India, from the Aryan-speaking peoples to the Mongols, did not all pillage
and ransack and leave, many settled down and became today's Indians (see
writings by Romila Thapar and others). And India did not compare so badly
with the rest of the world as a place to live right up to Mughal times,
European visitors have noted the conditions of the Indian peasants was not
much worse -- and was sometimes better -- than those at home (Bernier, etc).
Of course, this was not paradise. Caste dominated society, discrimination
was rampant, and there were few opportunities for those at the bottom of the
caste hierarchy to live well or freely, but, as various scholars have
pointed out, the mix of religious cultures in India thanks to the rule of
the Sultanate and Mughals over a majority-Hindu populace, meant that no one
religion could dominate, thus avoiding the savage religious wars of Europe.
It was only with arrival of the post-Renaissance Europeans that things
changed, and the conditions like you describe (in those 2 sentences) can be
said to have appeared. These Europeans were interested in only ransacking
and pillage, and not in living here. And India did remain in their control
longer than most parts of the world.
(I agree though that today's India has huge problems, I think many of them
are connected to our caste culture.)
Post by Goanet Reader
We are not great, we have to strive to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias
It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
gave the classic reply which immortalized him. The reply: "My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin. He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.
We, as a people, seem to have the highest regard
for Chauvin and have mastered the art of
chauvinism. If chauvinism were to be declared as a
sport, India would sweep all medals at the
Olympics. A symptom of our chauvinism is apparent
in the oft repeated slogan "Mera Bharat Mahan" (My
India is great). The question that arises, is it
really so?
There has been no greatness about our country, not in the
last two thousand years or so. Our history is nothing but a
record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the
victim of invasions and conquests as much as India has been.
The Huns, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Mongols or whosoever
have simply marched into the country pillaged and ransacked.
As a consequence of our cowardice and failure to defend
ourselves, invaders who marched in at will, marched out with
booty and tens of thousands of Indians as slaves. The poor
underfed vegetarians from the plains were driven ruthlessly
over the mountains of Afghanistan, where they died "like
flies", as history records. The mountains themselves came to
be known as Hindu Kush Mountains. Hindu Kush does not mean
Hindu happy; it means Hindu killer, in the local language.
Geographically, the country was by far the most defensible
against battle technology available in those days. The
Himalayas form a huge bulwark towards the north. No invader,
has crossed the Himalayas into India until the Chinese 1962.
The eastern borders with Burma are rugged hills. No invader
had come, from the East, until the Japanese advanced over
7,000 kms from their island home to reach Kohima during the
Second World War. The South has a vast ocean around it. No
invader entered from the sea till Afonso de Albuquerque
conquered Goa in the sixteenth century.
All previous invasions into the country were
overland from the West. And there were just two
routes of entry into the country; the Bolan Pass
and the Khyber pass. Most of the invaders poured in
through the Khyber pass which is about thirty four
kilometers long and in places only three metres
wide. There was no other entry point into the
country. However it never occurred to our
countrymen to fortify the passes and permanently
block access to invaders.
In this context, I am reminded of the designer advertisements
being released by the Indian army inviting fellow Indians to
join the army. The advertisements are couched in a language
which practically seem to suggest that the Indian army is a
five star hotel with all sorts of facilities for those who
join it. Despite such enticing advertisements, the shortage
of manpower in the army has mounted to fourteen thousand
officers.
If we have to join the army there is only one reason to do
so; and that is because the country needs the soldiers to
defend it. It is here that patriotism comes in. No other
reason is required. One point two billion people and we are
running short of fourteen thousand officers. Can you beat
that?
I have seen how when the Government of Goa announces
vacancies for police sub inspectors, thousands of Goans apply
and are known to have paid "bribe price" of up to
Rs.15,00,000 to be selected. I understand that shortly
another batch of sub inspectors is to be recruited. The
"bribe price" has reportedly touched Rs.25,00,000.
Mark my words, there would be thousands, seeking to pull
strings and willing to pay the "bribe price" to be selected.
None of these applicants for PSIs would go anywhere near an
army selection camp where one would be gladly and freely
selected. Who wants to be at risk of being killed in the
battlefront when it is much easier to make a "killing" in the
police force? That's our patriotism.
I often wonder about the Sangh Parivar which today seems to
hold a monopoly on patriotism. The RSS itself claims a
membership of over twenty five million cadres who dressed in
khaki are frequently seen marching in military formation. The
Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene and the VHP have their tough-looking
volunteers who have unleashed their 'patriotism' in Gujarat,
Karnataka and not very long ago at Fontainhas in Panaji too.
So presumably, the Sangh Parivar is full of young energetic
country men willing to defendant the country's honour.
That being so, why does the RSS and its sister
organizations not hold camps of its patriotic
sevaks and call upon the army, to select from its
cadre? The army should be easily able to enroll
fourteen thousand officers from among the twenty
five million 'pathetic' swayam sevaks. Will the RSS
at least now prove its patriotism and provides its
cadres for recruitment into the army? It is time
that the Sangh Parivar cadres display their
patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where
the threat lies.
Our self-belief in our greatness is unfounded and the cause
of our downfall. We do not become great through self
proclamation. The rest of the world has to acknowledge our
greatness. No one does so. There is not a single field of
human endeavour where we are anywhere near the top. There is
not a single field of human endeavour where we are not near
the bottom.
Our self-glorification is not a new phenomenon. Alberuni
traveling through India in the eleventh century writes about
According to their belief, there is no other
country on earth but theirs, no other race of man
but theirs, and no created beings besides them have
any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their
haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any
science or scholar in Kurasan and Persis, they will
think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If
they traveled and mixed with other nations, they
would soon change their mind, for their ancestors
were not as narrow-minded as the present generation
is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a
passage where he calls on the people to honour the
Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be
honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and
therein excelled others."
Nothing seems to have changed over the last millennium.
We were not alone in proclaiming our greatness. Until the
middle of the nineteenth century the Japanese were as insular
as us and had their own version of Hindutva. The Japanese
closed their ports to foreign trade. Western nations demanded
the right to trade. The Japanese refused to concede. French,
American, Dutch and British forces bombarded Japanese ports
and within a few days the Japanese navy was routed. Japan
conceded all the demands and opened its ports. Unlike us, the
Japanese did not take the defeat lying down. The Japanese
accepted that the West was far more advanced.
The Japanese people were unnerved by the unexpected defeat.
The Japanese shogun united behind the emperor Mejid Matsuhito
and handed over all powers to him so that Japan could advance
"and be able to rank equally with other Nations of the
World". The year was 1867.
Soon, great numbers of Japanese, delegations from
every craft, every city in the land, were touring
London, Paris, New York and other world centres,
behaving with the impeccable good manners so little
in evidence in foreigners who had visited Japan.
And now Japanese industrial revolution began to
speed, during this second half of the Emperor
Meiji's long reign. Factories sprang up like
mushrooms, and the ships which had so shocked and
impressed the Japanese in 1853 and which they
subsequently ordered, one by one, from the Western
world, began to be made, even faster, in Japanese
yards. The foreign monopoly of the crowded and
important steamship trade between Japan and China
was broken by a thrusting, new,
government-sponsored "Japan Mail Line". A
Western-style army and navy began to grow.
Japan was at last established as the equal of any
nation; but there was no resting on laurels. The
visits of beaming, polite, little men all over
Europe and the United States, absorbing silently
and with absolute accuracy everything they saw and
heard, went on, encouraged as before by the
emperor. Meiji journeyed widely himself, setting a
novel precedent and coming back regularly to his
domains with plans for still more improvement,
expansion in education, science, industry."
The Japanese have since emerged as the second largest economy
on earth. The Japanese have also improved physically. The
average height of a twenty one year old Japanese has
increased by twenty centimeters post Second World War. This
additional height is jokingly referred to as "hamburger
height" since it is attributed to the Japanese change to
American food habits.
Turkey, on the western frontiers of Asia had dominated the
world for nearly seven centuries. However, as the West
advanced, Turkey stagnated and came to be called the sick man
of Europe. At this time the Turks had a great fortune to see
the emergence of Kemal Attaturk who understood the cause for
the backwardness of Turkey. He united Turkey and was
determined to modernize the Nation on western lines.
"To make Turkey a strong, independent, modernized country was
now the goal. Through the National Assembly he bulldozed a
unanimous vote abolishing the Sultanate. Religion he saw as
the great enemy to progress, and as long as there was a
caliph he himself was not supreme and could not free the
people from superstition. In March, 1924, Abdul Meji was sent
packing and the State was secularized.
"There was great and growing opposition. But Kemal was utterly
ruthless. Gradually he established himself as absolute
dictator. With paternal rigour he then gave his people what
he though they needed. The fez, the symbol of the Ottoman
past, was abolished and its wearing made a crime. Monasteries
were closed, their inmates turned out to work or starve.
"Commercial, penal and civil codes were imported from abroad
and antiquated Moslem laws were swept. The metric system was
introduced and the Gregorian calendar. Polygamy was abolished
and women were given equal rights with men. Down to the
smallest detail of social life, time honoured habits were
hacked away and in the clearing made the Turk was set on his
feet and told to behave like a modern man.
"But only two or three per cent of the people were literate
and this was partly due to the inadequacy of Arabic
characters for writing Turkish. In 1928 Kemal, substituted
the Latin alphabet and toured the country teaching the new
signs."
The tragedy of our country is that we are yet to
find our emperor Meji or Kemal Attaturk.
Superstition wrapped in ritual continues to hold
sway. As custom. As tradition. As religion. No
leader or political party has the courage to
challenge superstition.
We are still lost in the back woods since we refuse to
acknowledge our own weaknesses and correct them as the
Japanese or Turks have done. We have to admit that we are a
cesspool of superstitions and corruptions, dishonesty and
deceit. We have stagnated and failed to evolve and advance.
Our contribution to civilization, (and it cannot be disputed)
is "zero". No pun intended. We have become the coelacanth, of
civilization. We are not great. We have to strive to be great.
[The author is a South Goa lawyer, and former member of the
Goa legislative assembly, known for his forthright, if
sometimes controversial, views. Feedback can be sent to him
via carlosnoronha at yahoo.com ]
Santosh Helekar
2010-06-30 06:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Thoughtful valid self-criticism is always welcome. Indeed it is essential for any kind of progress to occur. It is a hallmark of rational thought and scientific inquiry. But the article in question has very little to offer in this vein.

On the contrary, as Amita Kanekar so nicely pointed out, it consists almost entirely of sweeping generalizations and inaccurate exaggerations, whose main purpose is polemical, to counter the jingoism on the opposite political fringe, namely that of RSS and other Hindu nationalists. It is the tired old self-loathing of the left against the nauseating chauvinism of the right.

Smearing is something else, which fortunately this article does not do. Smearing involves the making of baseless slanderous accusations against individuals or communities in public forums. Good examples of smearing can be found in an article entitled "Skin-deep Secularism" written by Admin Noronha in Herald last year.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick Noronha
Easy to dismiss any criticism as
"self-loathing", "smearing" etc. That
way, almost anything could be dismissively cast aside
and written
away! Where's the space then for critical thought and
questioning
then?
As far as Radha's point on the RSS goes, I saw it
differently. He was
merely pointing out to their hypocrisy -- talk about
"patriotism" but
not do something like join the army and risk getting
killed
themselves. In other words, ahem, something like skin-deep
patriotism!
While I don't agree entirely with Gracias, and believe some
of the
comparisons (with Japan, Turkey) might not be apt, because
our history
has been so different, he does through up an interesting
challenge to
think about.
FN
manuel tavares
2010-07-01 00:41:07 UTC
Permalink
What a superb , well thought, balances and truthfully analytic portrayal of ourselves. People across the whole Political, Social and Cultural spectrum of Indian society ought to read this and draw inspiration from the pearls of wisdom which are thrown here as a challenge to Indians one and all to look deeply into ourselves and instead of basking in false glory of what we consider to be our superiority, consider our folly instead and act now to reverse the trend. We should venture out seeking innovations in Science, Medicine, Engineering and all other fields applying them to better our lives, ridding ourselves of antiquated customs and superstitions which are constantly pushing us down and embrace modern Western ideas if we are ever to emerge as a World Power. China is Growing faster than ever and will soon be a dominant force in world affairs. The Chinese are already looking forward towards an even more sustained and prosperous future by investing in energy, and commodities not only internally but internationally with a view to guaranteeing their future growth, while we in India continue destruction of our environment and exporting our Iron Ore and other commodities to China. Why cannot we utilize these ourselves and ensure our own Growth. Selfishness Corruption and Greed are consuming us wholesale and this will lead to the destruction of India and may lead in future to the invasion of India by China who will see no obstacles in their way. Our Indian Army cannot even get enough recruits to fulfill its current commitments do you think that if we continue on this current course, we will have enough to defend ourselves in the future?

Manuel (Eddie) Tavares.
Goanet Reader
2010-06-29 19:05:22 UTC
Permalink
We are not great, we have to strive to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias

It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
gave the classic reply which immortalized him. The reply: "My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin. He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.

We, as a people, seem to have the highest regard
for Chauvin and have mastered the art of
chauvinism. If chauvinism were to be declared as a
sport, India would sweep all medals at the
Olympics. A symptom of our chauvinism is apparent
in the oft repeated slogan "Mera Bharat Mahan" (My
India is great). The question that arises, is it
really so?

There has been no greatness about our country, not in the
last two thousand years or so. Our history is nothing but a
record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the
victim of invasions and conquests as much as India has been.
The Huns, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Mongols or whosoever
have simply marched into the country pillaged and ransacked.

As a consequence of our cowardice and failure to defend
ourselves, invaders who marched in at will, marched out with
booty and tens of thousands of Indians as slaves. The poor
underfed vegetarians from the plains were driven ruthlessly
over the mountains of Afghanistan, where they died "like
flies", as history records. The mountains themselves came to
be known as Hindu Kush Mountains. Hindu Kush does not mean
Hindu happy; it means Hindu killer, in the local language.

Geographically, the country was by far the most defensible
against battle technology available in those days. The
Himalayas form a huge bulwark towards the north. No invader,
has crossed the Himalayas into India until the Chinese 1962.

The eastern borders with Burma are rugged hills. No invader
had come, from the East, until the Japanese advanced over
7,000 kms from their island home to reach Kohima during the
Second World War. The South has a vast ocean around it. No
invader entered from the sea till Afonso de Albuquerque
conquered Goa in the sixteenth century.

All previous invasions into the country were
overland from the West. And there were just two
routes of entry into the country; the Bolan Pass
and the Khyber pass. Most of the invaders poured in
through the Khyber pass which is about thirty four
kilometers long and in places only three metres
wide. There was no other entry point into the
country. However it never occurred to our
countrymen to fortify the passes and permanently
block access to invaders.

In this context, I am reminded of the designer advertisements
being released by the Indian army inviting fellow Indians to
join the army. The advertisements are couched in a language
which practically seem to suggest that the Indian army is a
five star hotel with all sorts of facilities for those who
join it. Despite such enticing advertisements, the shortage
of manpower in the army has mounted to fourteen thousand
officers.

If we have to join the army there is only one reason to do
so; and that is because the country needs the soldiers to
defend it. It is here that patriotism comes in. No other
reason is required. One point two billion people and we are
running short of fourteen thousand officers. Can you beat
that?

I have seen how when the Government of Goa announces
vacancies for police sub inspectors, thousands of Goans apply
and are known to have paid "bribe price" of up to
Rs.15,00,000 to be selected. I understand that shortly
another batch of sub inspectors is to be recruited. The
"bribe price" has reportedly touched Rs.25,00,000.

Mark my words, there would be thousands, seeking to pull
strings and willing to pay the "bribe price" to be selected.
None of these applicants for PSIs would go anywhere near an
army selection camp where one would be gladly and freely
selected. Who wants to be at risk of being killed in the
battlefront when it is much easier to make a "killing" in the
police force? That's our patriotism.

I often wonder about the Sangh Parivar which today seems to
hold a monopoly on patriotism. The RSS itself claims a
membership of over twenty five million cadres who dressed in
khaki are frequently seen marching in military formation. The
Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene and the VHP have their tough-looking
volunteers who have unleashed their 'patriotism' in Gujarat,
Karnataka and not very long ago at Fontainhas in Panaji too.
So presumably, the Sangh Parivar is full of young energetic
country men willing to defendant the country's honour.

That being so, why does the RSS and its sister
organizations not hold camps of its patriotic
sevaks and call upon the army, to select from its
cadre? The army should be easily able to enroll
fourteen thousand officers from among the twenty
five million 'pathetic' swayam sevaks. Will the RSS
at least now prove its patriotism and provides its
cadres for recruitment into the army? It is time
that the Sangh Parivar cadres display their
patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where
the threat lies.

Our self-belief in our greatness is unfounded and the cause
of our downfall. We do not become great through self
proclamation. The rest of the world has to acknowledge our
greatness. No one does so. There is not a single field of
human endeavour where we are anywhere near the top. There is
not a single field of human endeavour where we are not near
the bottom.

Our self-glorification is not a new phenomenon. Alberuni
traveling through India in the eleventh century writes about
our countrymen:

According to their belief, there is no other
country on earth but theirs, no other race of man
but theirs, and no created beings besides them have
any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their
haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any
science or scholar in Kurasan and Persis, they will
think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If
they traveled and mixed with other nations, they
would soon change their mind, for their ancestors
were not as narrow-minded as the present generation
is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a
passage where he calls on the people to honour the
Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be
honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and
therein excelled others."

Nothing seems to have changed over the last millennium.

We were not alone in proclaiming our greatness. Until the
middle of the nineteenth century the Japanese were as insular
as us and had their own version of Hindutva. The Japanese
closed their ports to foreign trade. Western nations demanded
the right to trade. The Japanese refused to concede. French,
American, Dutch and British forces bombarded Japanese ports
and within a few days the Japanese navy was routed. Japan
conceded all the demands and opened its ports. Unlike us, the
Japanese did not take the defeat lying down. The Japanese
accepted that the West was far more advanced.

The Japanese people were unnerved by the unexpected defeat.
The Japanese shogun united behind the emperor Mejid Matsuhito
and handed over all powers to him so that Japan could advance
"and be able to rank equally with other Nations of the
World". The year was 1867.

Douglas Collier writing on what happened thereafter records :

Soon, great numbers of Japanese, delegations from
every craft, every city in the land, were touring
London, Paris, New York and other world centres,
behaving with the impeccable good manners so little
in evidence in foreigners who had visited Japan.

And now Japanese industrial revolution began to
speed, during this second half of the Emperor
Meiji's long reign. Factories sprang up like
mushrooms, and the ships which had so shocked and
impressed the Japanese in 1853 and which they
subsequently ordered, one by one, from the Western
world, began to be made, even faster, in Japanese
yards. The foreign monopoly of the crowded and
important steamship trade between Japan and China
was broken by a thrusting, new,
government-sponsored "Japan Mail Line". A
Western-style army and navy began to grow.

Japan was at last established as the equal of any
nation; but there was no resting on laurels. The
visits of beaming, polite, little men all over
Europe and the United States, absorbing silently
and with absolute accuracy everything they saw and
heard, went on, encouraged as before by the
emperor. Meiji journeyed widely himself, setting a
novel precedent and coming back regularly to his
domains with plans for still more improvement,
expansion in education, science, industry."

The Japanese have since emerged as the second largest economy
on earth. The Japanese have also improved physically. The
average height of a twenty one year old Japanese has
increased by twenty centimeters post Second World War. This
additional height is jokingly referred to as "hamburger
height" since it is attributed to the Japanese change to
American food habits.

Turkey, on the western frontiers of Asia had dominated the
world for nearly seven centuries. However, as the West
advanced, Turkey stagnated and came to be called the sick man
of Europe. At this time the Turks had a great fortune to see
the emergence of Kemal Attaturk who understood the cause for
the backwardness of Turkey. He united Turkey and was
determined to modernize the Nation on western lines.

Lawrence Wilson writes:

"To make Turkey a strong, independent, modernized country was
now the goal. Through the National Assembly he bulldozed a
unanimous vote abolishing the Sultanate. Religion he saw as
the great enemy to progress, and as long as there was a
caliph he himself was not supreme and could not free the
people from superstition. In March, 1924, Abdul Meji was sent
packing and the State was secularized.

"There was great and growing opposition. But Kemal was utterly
ruthless. Gradually he established himself as absolute
dictator. With paternal rigour he then gave his people what
he though they needed. The fez, the symbol of the Ottoman
past, was abolished and its wearing made a crime. Monasteries
were closed, their inmates turned out to work or starve.

"Commercial, penal and civil codes were imported from abroad
and antiquated Moslem laws were swept. The metric system was
introduced and the Gregorian calendar. Polygamy was abolished
and women were given equal rights with men. Down to the
smallest detail of social life, time honoured habits were
hacked away and in the clearing made the Turk was set on his
feet and told to behave like a modern man.

"But only two or three per cent of the people were literate
and this was partly due to the inadequacy of Arabic
characters for writing Turkish. In 1928 Kemal, substituted
the Latin alphabet and toured the country teaching the new
signs."

The tragedy of our country is that we are yet to
find our emperor Meji or Kemal Attaturk.
Superstition wrapped in ritual continues to hold
sway. As custom. As tradition. As religion. No
leader or political party has the courage to
challenge superstition.

We are still lost in the back woods since we refuse to
acknowledge our own weaknesses and correct them as the
Japanese or Turks have done. We have to admit that we are a
cesspool of superstitions and corruptions, dishonesty and
deceit. We have stagnated and failed to evolve and advance.

Our contribution to civilization, (and it cannot be disputed)
is "zero". No pun intended. We have become the coelacanth, of
civilization. We are not great. We have to strive to be great.

[The author is a South Goa lawyer, and former member of the
Goa legislative assembly, known for his forthright, if
sometimes controversial, views. Feedback can be sent to him
via carlosnoronha at yahoo.com ]
Santosh Helekar
2010-06-29 21:04:49 UTC
Permalink
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe. In this article it looks like chauvinism is countered by self-loathing, using a rather constricted definition of greatness and progress. If, as the silly line of argument in this article suggests, the principal measure of contribution to society is to join the army, then India has done quite well. It has arguably the third largest army in the world, after China and Russia.

But I am sure most readers of the article have more sense than to believe any aspect of the cartoonish picture sketched by it. Contributions to human
civilization involve much more than military prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more than even technological advancement. There is language, art, music, dance, literature, sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and numerous other areas of human endeavor that characterize any culture and society. I would like to know whether the author of the said article has thought about them at all. His article certainly does not indicate he has. But if he has or if he does so now, I would also like to know what kind of objective method he would use to place India at the bottom of the pack in these areas as well.

BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics was one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as transformative as the` invention of calculus.

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Also, encouraging or shaming the RSS and other Hindu extremists into joining the military would be the worst calamity anybody could wish upon India.
Post by Goanet Reader
We are not great, we have to strive
to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias
It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify
the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
"My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin.
He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.
Amita Kanekar
2010-06-30 05:31:32 UTC
Permalink
I think the below article contains quite a few sweeping generalisations,
often misleading. To take just 2 sentences at the start, *Our history is
nothing but a record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the victim of invasions
and conquests as much as India has been.
*The second sentence is not true. The first sentence applies to many if not
most places of the world. Today's countries have been formed out of
conquests and other events of history; most regions/peoples of the world
have suffered invasions, conquests, subjugation and enslavement. India in
fact is known to have have not had much slavery as compared to Europe,
Africa and the Americas. And the invaders and other migrants who came to
India, from the Aryan-speaking peoples to the Mongols, did not all pillage
and ransack and leave, many settled down and became today's Indians (see
writings by Romila Thapar and others). And India did not compare so badly
with the rest of the world as a place to live right up to Mughal times,
European visitors have noted the conditions of the Indian peasants was not
much worse -- and was sometimes better -- than those at home (Bernier, etc).
Of course, this was not paradise. Caste dominated society, discrimination
was rampant, and there were few opportunities for those at the bottom of the
caste hierarchy to live well or freely, but, as various scholars have
pointed out, the mix of religious cultures in India thanks to the rule of
the Sultanate and Mughals over a majority-Hindu populace, meant that no one
religion could dominate, thus avoiding the savage religious wars of Europe.
It was only with arrival of the post-Renaissance Europeans that things
changed, and the conditions like you describe (in those 2 sentences) can be
said to have appeared. These Europeans were interested in only ransacking
and pillage, and not in living here. And India did remain in their control
longer than most parts of the world.
(I agree though that today's India has huge problems, I think many of them
are connected to our caste culture.)
Post by Goanet Reader
We are not great, we have to strive to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias
It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
gave the classic reply which immortalized him. The reply: "My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin. He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.
We, as a people, seem to have the highest regard
for Chauvin and have mastered the art of
chauvinism. If chauvinism were to be declared as a
sport, India would sweep all medals at the
Olympics. A symptom of our chauvinism is apparent
in the oft repeated slogan "Mera Bharat Mahan" (My
India is great). The question that arises, is it
really so?
There has been no greatness about our country, not in the
last two thousand years or so. Our history is nothing but a
record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the
victim of invasions and conquests as much as India has been.
The Huns, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Mongols or whosoever
have simply marched into the country pillaged and ransacked.
As a consequence of our cowardice and failure to defend
ourselves, invaders who marched in at will, marched out with
booty and tens of thousands of Indians as slaves. The poor
underfed vegetarians from the plains were driven ruthlessly
over the mountains of Afghanistan, where they died "like
flies", as history records. The mountains themselves came to
be known as Hindu Kush Mountains. Hindu Kush does not mean
Hindu happy; it means Hindu killer, in the local language.
Geographically, the country was by far the most defensible
against battle technology available in those days. The
Himalayas form a huge bulwark towards the north. No invader,
has crossed the Himalayas into India until the Chinese 1962.
The eastern borders with Burma are rugged hills. No invader
had come, from the East, until the Japanese advanced over
7,000 kms from their island home to reach Kohima during the
Second World War. The South has a vast ocean around it. No
invader entered from the sea till Afonso de Albuquerque
conquered Goa in the sixteenth century.
All previous invasions into the country were
overland from the West. And there were just two
routes of entry into the country; the Bolan Pass
and the Khyber pass. Most of the invaders poured in
through the Khyber pass which is about thirty four
kilometers long and in places only three metres
wide. There was no other entry point into the
country. However it never occurred to our
countrymen to fortify the passes and permanently
block access to invaders.
In this context, I am reminded of the designer advertisements
being released by the Indian army inviting fellow Indians to
join the army. The advertisements are couched in a language
which practically seem to suggest that the Indian army is a
five star hotel with all sorts of facilities for those who
join it. Despite such enticing advertisements, the shortage
of manpower in the army has mounted to fourteen thousand
officers.
If we have to join the army there is only one reason to do
so; and that is because the country needs the soldiers to
defend it. It is here that patriotism comes in. No other
reason is required. One point two billion people and we are
running short of fourteen thousand officers. Can you beat
that?
I have seen how when the Government of Goa announces
vacancies for police sub inspectors, thousands of Goans apply
and are known to have paid "bribe price" of up to
Rs.15,00,000 to be selected. I understand that shortly
another batch of sub inspectors is to be recruited. The
"bribe price" has reportedly touched Rs.25,00,000.
Mark my words, there would be thousands, seeking to pull
strings and willing to pay the "bribe price" to be selected.
None of these applicants for PSIs would go anywhere near an
army selection camp where one would be gladly and freely
selected. Who wants to be at risk of being killed in the
battlefront when it is much easier to make a "killing" in the
police force? That's our patriotism.
I often wonder about the Sangh Parivar which today seems to
hold a monopoly on patriotism. The RSS itself claims a
membership of over twenty five million cadres who dressed in
khaki are frequently seen marching in military formation. The
Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene and the VHP have their tough-looking
volunteers who have unleashed their 'patriotism' in Gujarat,
Karnataka and not very long ago at Fontainhas in Panaji too.
So presumably, the Sangh Parivar is full of young energetic
country men willing to defendant the country's honour.
That being so, why does the RSS and its sister
organizations not hold camps of its patriotic
sevaks and call upon the army, to select from its
cadre? The army should be easily able to enroll
fourteen thousand officers from among the twenty
five million 'pathetic' swayam sevaks. Will the RSS
at least now prove its patriotism and provides its
cadres for recruitment into the army? It is time
that the Sangh Parivar cadres display their
patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where
the threat lies.
Our self-belief in our greatness is unfounded and the cause
of our downfall. We do not become great through self
proclamation. The rest of the world has to acknowledge our
greatness. No one does so. There is not a single field of
human endeavour where we are anywhere near the top. There is
not a single field of human endeavour where we are not near
the bottom.
Our self-glorification is not a new phenomenon. Alberuni
traveling through India in the eleventh century writes about
According to their belief, there is no other
country on earth but theirs, no other race of man
but theirs, and no created beings besides them have
any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their
haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any
science or scholar in Kurasan and Persis, they will
think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If
they traveled and mixed with other nations, they
would soon change their mind, for their ancestors
were not as narrow-minded as the present generation
is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a
passage where he calls on the people to honour the
Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be
honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and
therein excelled others."
Nothing seems to have changed over the last millennium.
We were not alone in proclaiming our greatness. Until the
middle of the nineteenth century the Japanese were as insular
as us and had their own version of Hindutva. The Japanese
closed their ports to foreign trade. Western nations demanded
the right to trade. The Japanese refused to concede. French,
American, Dutch and British forces bombarded Japanese ports
and within a few days the Japanese navy was routed. Japan
conceded all the demands and opened its ports. Unlike us, the
Japanese did not take the defeat lying down. The Japanese
accepted that the West was far more advanced.
The Japanese people were unnerved by the unexpected defeat.
The Japanese shogun united behind the emperor Mejid Matsuhito
and handed over all powers to him so that Japan could advance
"and be able to rank equally with other Nations of the
World". The year was 1867.
Soon, great numbers of Japanese, delegations from
every craft, every city in the land, were touring
London, Paris, New York and other world centres,
behaving with the impeccable good manners so little
in evidence in foreigners who had visited Japan.
And now Japanese industrial revolution began to
speed, during this second half of the Emperor
Meiji's long reign. Factories sprang up like
mushrooms, and the ships which had so shocked and
impressed the Japanese in 1853 and which they
subsequently ordered, one by one, from the Western
world, began to be made, even faster, in Japanese
yards. The foreign monopoly of the crowded and
important steamship trade between Japan and China
was broken by a thrusting, new,
government-sponsored "Japan Mail Line". A
Western-style army and navy began to grow.
Japan was at last established as the equal of any
nation; but there was no resting on laurels. The
visits of beaming, polite, little men all over
Europe and the United States, absorbing silently
and with absolute accuracy everything they saw and
heard, went on, encouraged as before by the
emperor. Meiji journeyed widely himself, setting a
novel precedent and coming back regularly to his
domains with plans for still more improvement,
expansion in education, science, industry."
The Japanese have since emerged as the second largest economy
on earth. The Japanese have also improved physically. The
average height of a twenty one year old Japanese has
increased by twenty centimeters post Second World War. This
additional height is jokingly referred to as "hamburger
height" since it is attributed to the Japanese change to
American food habits.
Turkey, on the western frontiers of Asia had dominated the
world for nearly seven centuries. However, as the West
advanced, Turkey stagnated and came to be called the sick man
of Europe. At this time the Turks had a great fortune to see
the emergence of Kemal Attaturk who understood the cause for
the backwardness of Turkey. He united Turkey and was
determined to modernize the Nation on western lines.
"To make Turkey a strong, independent, modernized country was
now the goal. Through the National Assembly he bulldozed a
unanimous vote abolishing the Sultanate. Religion he saw as
the great enemy to progress, and as long as there was a
caliph he himself was not supreme and could not free the
people from superstition. In March, 1924, Abdul Meji was sent
packing and the State was secularized.
"There was great and growing opposition. But Kemal was utterly
ruthless. Gradually he established himself as absolute
dictator. With paternal rigour he then gave his people what
he though they needed. The fez, the symbol of the Ottoman
past, was abolished and its wearing made a crime. Monasteries
were closed, their inmates turned out to work or starve.
"Commercial, penal and civil codes were imported from abroad
and antiquated Moslem laws were swept. The metric system was
introduced and the Gregorian calendar. Polygamy was abolished
and women were given equal rights with men. Down to the
smallest detail of social life, time honoured habits were
hacked away and in the clearing made the Turk was set on his
feet and told to behave like a modern man.
"But only two or three per cent of the people were literate
and this was partly due to the inadequacy of Arabic
characters for writing Turkish. In 1928 Kemal, substituted
the Latin alphabet and toured the country teaching the new
signs."
The tragedy of our country is that we are yet to
find our emperor Meji or Kemal Attaturk.
Superstition wrapped in ritual continues to hold
sway. As custom. As tradition. As religion. No
leader or political party has the courage to
challenge superstition.
We are still lost in the back woods since we refuse to
acknowledge our own weaknesses and correct them as the
Japanese or Turks have done. We have to admit that we are a
cesspool of superstitions and corruptions, dishonesty and
deceit. We have stagnated and failed to evolve and advance.
Our contribution to civilization, (and it cannot be disputed)
is "zero". No pun intended. We have become the coelacanth, of
civilization. We are not great. We have to strive to be great.
[The author is a South Goa lawyer, and former member of the
Goa legislative assembly, known for his forthright, if
sometimes controversial, views. Feedback can be sent to him
via carlosnoronha at yahoo.com ]
Santosh Helekar
2010-06-30 06:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Thoughtful valid self-criticism is always welcome. Indeed it is essential for any kind of progress to occur. It is a hallmark of rational thought and scientific inquiry. But the article in question has very little to offer in this vein.

On the contrary, as Amita Kanekar so nicely pointed out, it consists almost entirely of sweeping generalizations and inaccurate exaggerations, whose main purpose is polemical, to counter the jingoism on the opposite political fringe, namely that of RSS and other Hindu nationalists. It is the tired old self-loathing of the left against the nauseating chauvinism of the right.

Smearing is something else, which fortunately this article does not do. Smearing involves the making of baseless slanderous accusations against individuals or communities in public forums. Good examples of smearing can be found in an article entitled "Skin-deep Secularism" written by Admin Noronha in Herald last year.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick Noronha
Easy to dismiss any criticism as
"self-loathing", "smearing" etc. That
way, almost anything could be dismissively cast aside
and written
away! Where's the space then for critical thought and
questioning
then?
As far as Radha's point on the RSS goes, I saw it
differently. He was
merely pointing out to their hypocrisy -- talk about
"patriotism" but
not do something like join the army and risk getting
killed
themselves. In other words, ahem, something like skin-deep
patriotism!
While I don't agree entirely with Gracias, and believe some
of the
comparisons (with Japan, Turkey) might not be apt, because
our history
has been so different, he does through up an interesting
challenge to
think about.
FN
manuel tavares
2010-07-01 00:41:07 UTC
Permalink
What a superb , well thought, balances and truthfully analytic portrayal of ourselves. People across the whole Political, Social and Cultural spectrum of Indian society ought to read this and draw inspiration from the pearls of wisdom which are thrown here as a challenge to Indians one and all to look deeply into ourselves and instead of basking in false glory of what we consider to be our superiority, consider our folly instead and act now to reverse the trend. We should venture out seeking innovations in Science, Medicine, Engineering and all other fields applying them to better our lives, ridding ourselves of antiquated customs and superstitions which are constantly pushing us down and embrace modern Western ideas if we are ever to emerge as a World Power. China is Growing faster than ever and will soon be a dominant force in world affairs. The Chinese are already looking forward towards an even more sustained and prosperous future by investing in energy, and commodities not only internally but internationally with a view to guaranteeing their future growth, while we in India continue destruction of our environment and exporting our Iron Ore and other commodities to China. Why cannot we utilize these ourselves and ensure our own Growth. Selfishness Corruption and Greed are consuming us wholesale and this will lead to the destruction of India and may lead in future to the invasion of India by China who will see no obstacles in their way. Our Indian Army cannot even get enough recruits to fulfill its current commitments do you think that if we continue on this current course, we will have enough to defend ourselves in the future?

Manuel (Eddie) Tavares.
Goanet Reader
2010-06-29 19:05:22 UTC
Permalink
We are not great, we have to strive to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias

It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
gave the classic reply which immortalized him. The reply: "My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin. He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.

We, as a people, seem to have the highest regard
for Chauvin and have mastered the art of
chauvinism. If chauvinism were to be declared as a
sport, India would sweep all medals at the
Olympics. A symptom of our chauvinism is apparent
in the oft repeated slogan "Mera Bharat Mahan" (My
India is great). The question that arises, is it
really so?

There has been no greatness about our country, not in the
last two thousand years or so. Our history is nothing but a
record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the
victim of invasions and conquests as much as India has been.
The Huns, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Mongols or whosoever
have simply marched into the country pillaged and ransacked.

As a consequence of our cowardice and failure to defend
ourselves, invaders who marched in at will, marched out with
booty and tens of thousands of Indians as slaves. The poor
underfed vegetarians from the plains were driven ruthlessly
over the mountains of Afghanistan, where they died "like
flies", as history records. The mountains themselves came to
be known as Hindu Kush Mountains. Hindu Kush does not mean
Hindu happy; it means Hindu killer, in the local language.

Geographically, the country was by far the most defensible
against battle technology available in those days. The
Himalayas form a huge bulwark towards the north. No invader,
has crossed the Himalayas into India until the Chinese 1962.

The eastern borders with Burma are rugged hills. No invader
had come, from the East, until the Japanese advanced over
7,000 kms from their island home to reach Kohima during the
Second World War. The South has a vast ocean around it. No
invader entered from the sea till Afonso de Albuquerque
conquered Goa in the sixteenth century.

All previous invasions into the country were
overland from the West. And there were just two
routes of entry into the country; the Bolan Pass
and the Khyber pass. Most of the invaders poured in
through the Khyber pass which is about thirty four
kilometers long and in places only three metres
wide. There was no other entry point into the
country. However it never occurred to our
countrymen to fortify the passes and permanently
block access to invaders.

In this context, I am reminded of the designer advertisements
being released by the Indian army inviting fellow Indians to
join the army. The advertisements are couched in a language
which practically seem to suggest that the Indian army is a
five star hotel with all sorts of facilities for those who
join it. Despite such enticing advertisements, the shortage
of manpower in the army has mounted to fourteen thousand
officers.

If we have to join the army there is only one reason to do
so; and that is because the country needs the soldiers to
defend it. It is here that patriotism comes in. No other
reason is required. One point two billion people and we are
running short of fourteen thousand officers. Can you beat
that?

I have seen how when the Government of Goa announces
vacancies for police sub inspectors, thousands of Goans apply
and are known to have paid "bribe price" of up to
Rs.15,00,000 to be selected. I understand that shortly
another batch of sub inspectors is to be recruited. The
"bribe price" has reportedly touched Rs.25,00,000.

Mark my words, there would be thousands, seeking to pull
strings and willing to pay the "bribe price" to be selected.
None of these applicants for PSIs would go anywhere near an
army selection camp where one would be gladly and freely
selected. Who wants to be at risk of being killed in the
battlefront when it is much easier to make a "killing" in the
police force? That's our patriotism.

I often wonder about the Sangh Parivar which today seems to
hold a monopoly on patriotism. The RSS itself claims a
membership of over twenty five million cadres who dressed in
khaki are frequently seen marching in military formation. The
Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene and the VHP have their tough-looking
volunteers who have unleashed their 'patriotism' in Gujarat,
Karnataka and not very long ago at Fontainhas in Panaji too.
So presumably, the Sangh Parivar is full of young energetic
country men willing to defendant the country's honour.

That being so, why does the RSS and its sister
organizations not hold camps of its patriotic
sevaks and call upon the army, to select from its
cadre? The army should be easily able to enroll
fourteen thousand officers from among the twenty
five million 'pathetic' swayam sevaks. Will the RSS
at least now prove its patriotism and provides its
cadres for recruitment into the army? It is time
that the Sangh Parivar cadres display their
patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where
the threat lies.

Our self-belief in our greatness is unfounded and the cause
of our downfall. We do not become great through self
proclamation. The rest of the world has to acknowledge our
greatness. No one does so. There is not a single field of
human endeavour where we are anywhere near the top. There is
not a single field of human endeavour where we are not near
the bottom.

Our self-glorification is not a new phenomenon. Alberuni
traveling through India in the eleventh century writes about
our countrymen:

According to their belief, there is no other
country on earth but theirs, no other race of man
but theirs, and no created beings besides them have
any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their
haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any
science or scholar in Kurasan and Persis, they will
think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If
they traveled and mixed with other nations, they
would soon change their mind, for their ancestors
were not as narrow-minded as the present generation
is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a
passage where he calls on the people to honour the
Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be
honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and
therein excelled others."

Nothing seems to have changed over the last millennium.

We were not alone in proclaiming our greatness. Until the
middle of the nineteenth century the Japanese were as insular
as us and had their own version of Hindutva. The Japanese
closed their ports to foreign trade. Western nations demanded
the right to trade. The Japanese refused to concede. French,
American, Dutch and British forces bombarded Japanese ports
and within a few days the Japanese navy was routed. Japan
conceded all the demands and opened its ports. Unlike us, the
Japanese did not take the defeat lying down. The Japanese
accepted that the West was far more advanced.

The Japanese people were unnerved by the unexpected defeat.
The Japanese shogun united behind the emperor Mejid Matsuhito
and handed over all powers to him so that Japan could advance
"and be able to rank equally with other Nations of the
World". The year was 1867.

Douglas Collier writing on what happened thereafter records :

Soon, great numbers of Japanese, delegations from
every craft, every city in the land, were touring
London, Paris, New York and other world centres,
behaving with the impeccable good manners so little
in evidence in foreigners who had visited Japan.

And now Japanese industrial revolution began to
speed, during this second half of the Emperor
Meiji's long reign. Factories sprang up like
mushrooms, and the ships which had so shocked and
impressed the Japanese in 1853 and which they
subsequently ordered, one by one, from the Western
world, began to be made, even faster, in Japanese
yards. The foreign monopoly of the crowded and
important steamship trade between Japan and China
was broken by a thrusting, new,
government-sponsored "Japan Mail Line". A
Western-style army and navy began to grow.

Japan was at last established as the equal of any
nation; but there was no resting on laurels. The
visits of beaming, polite, little men all over
Europe and the United States, absorbing silently
and with absolute accuracy everything they saw and
heard, went on, encouraged as before by the
emperor. Meiji journeyed widely himself, setting a
novel precedent and coming back regularly to his
domains with plans for still more improvement,
expansion in education, science, industry."

The Japanese have since emerged as the second largest economy
on earth. The Japanese have also improved physically. The
average height of a twenty one year old Japanese has
increased by twenty centimeters post Second World War. This
additional height is jokingly referred to as "hamburger
height" since it is attributed to the Japanese change to
American food habits.

Turkey, on the western frontiers of Asia had dominated the
world for nearly seven centuries. However, as the West
advanced, Turkey stagnated and came to be called the sick man
of Europe. At this time the Turks had a great fortune to see
the emergence of Kemal Attaturk who understood the cause for
the backwardness of Turkey. He united Turkey and was
determined to modernize the Nation on western lines.

Lawrence Wilson writes:

"To make Turkey a strong, independent, modernized country was
now the goal. Through the National Assembly he bulldozed a
unanimous vote abolishing the Sultanate. Religion he saw as
the great enemy to progress, and as long as there was a
caliph he himself was not supreme and could not free the
people from superstition. In March, 1924, Abdul Meji was sent
packing and the State was secularized.

"There was great and growing opposition. But Kemal was utterly
ruthless. Gradually he established himself as absolute
dictator. With paternal rigour he then gave his people what
he though they needed. The fez, the symbol of the Ottoman
past, was abolished and its wearing made a crime. Monasteries
were closed, their inmates turned out to work or starve.

"Commercial, penal and civil codes were imported from abroad
and antiquated Moslem laws were swept. The metric system was
introduced and the Gregorian calendar. Polygamy was abolished
and women were given equal rights with men. Down to the
smallest detail of social life, time honoured habits were
hacked away and in the clearing made the Turk was set on his
feet and told to behave like a modern man.

"But only two or three per cent of the people were literate
and this was partly due to the inadequacy of Arabic
characters for writing Turkish. In 1928 Kemal, substituted
the Latin alphabet and toured the country teaching the new
signs."

The tragedy of our country is that we are yet to
find our emperor Meji or Kemal Attaturk.
Superstition wrapped in ritual continues to hold
sway. As custom. As tradition. As religion. No
leader or political party has the courage to
challenge superstition.

We are still lost in the back woods since we refuse to
acknowledge our own weaknesses and correct them as the
Japanese or Turks have done. We have to admit that we are a
cesspool of superstitions and corruptions, dishonesty and
deceit. We have stagnated and failed to evolve and advance.

Our contribution to civilization, (and it cannot be disputed)
is "zero". No pun intended. We have become the coelacanth, of
civilization. We are not great. We have to strive to be great.

[The author is a South Goa lawyer, and former member of the
Goa legislative assembly, known for his forthright, if
sometimes controversial, views. Feedback can be sent to him
via carlosnoronha at yahoo.com ]
Santosh Helekar
2010-06-29 21:04:49 UTC
Permalink
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic nonsense on one fringe with something even worse from the opposite fringe. In this article it looks like chauvinism is countered by self-loathing, using a rather constricted definition of greatness and progress. If, as the silly line of argument in this article suggests, the principal measure of contribution to society is to join the army, then India has done quite well. It has arguably the third largest army in the world, after China and Russia.

But I am sure most readers of the article have more sense than to believe any aspect of the cartoonish picture sketched by it. Contributions to human
civilization involve much more than military prowess and scoring goals - indeed, much more than even technological advancement. There is language, art, music, dance, literature, sculpture, architecture, cuisine, philosophy and numerous other areas of human endeavor that characterize any culture and society. I would like to know whether the author of the said article has thought about them at all. His article certainly does not indicate he has. But if he has or if he does so now, I would also like to know what kind of objective method he would use to place India at the bottom of the pack in these areas as well.

BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to mathematics was one of the most significant inventions of humankind. It was as transformative as the` invention of calculus.

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Also, encouraging or shaming the RSS and other Hindu extremists into joining the military would be the worst calamity anybody could wish upon India.
Post by Goanet Reader
We are not great, we have to strive
to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias
It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify
the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
"My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin.
He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.
Amita Kanekar
2010-06-30 05:31:32 UTC
Permalink
I think the below article contains quite a few sweeping generalisations,
often misleading. To take just 2 sentences at the start, *Our history is
nothing but a record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the victim of invasions
and conquests as much as India has been.
*The second sentence is not true. The first sentence applies to many if not
most places of the world. Today's countries have been formed out of
conquests and other events of history; most regions/peoples of the world
have suffered invasions, conquests, subjugation and enslavement. India in
fact is known to have have not had much slavery as compared to Europe,
Africa and the Americas. And the invaders and other migrants who came to
India, from the Aryan-speaking peoples to the Mongols, did not all pillage
and ransack and leave, many settled down and became today's Indians (see
writings by Romila Thapar and others). And India did not compare so badly
with the rest of the world as a place to live right up to Mughal times,
European visitors have noted the conditions of the Indian peasants was not
much worse -- and was sometimes better -- than those at home (Bernier, etc).
Of course, this was not paradise. Caste dominated society, discrimination
was rampant, and there were few opportunities for those at the bottom of the
caste hierarchy to live well or freely, but, as various scholars have
pointed out, the mix of religious cultures in India thanks to the rule of
the Sultanate and Mughals over a majority-Hindu populace, meant that no one
religion could dominate, thus avoiding the savage religious wars of Europe.
It was only with arrival of the post-Renaissance Europeans that things
changed, and the conditions like you describe (in those 2 sentences) can be
said to have appeared. These Europeans were interested in only ransacking
and pillage, and not in living here. And India did remain in their control
longer than most parts of the world.
(I agree though that today's India has huge problems, I think many of them
are connected to our caste culture.)
Post by Goanet Reader
We are not great, we have to strive to become great
By Adv.Radharao F.Gracias
It was sometime at the beginning of the nineteenth century
that a soldier in Napoleon's army when asked to justify the
incessant wars that France launched against its neighbours
gave the classic reply which immortalized him. The reply: "My
country, therefore right". The soldier: Nicholas Chauvin. He
gave us an entire new concept: Chauvinism.
We, as a people, seem to have the highest regard
for Chauvin and have mastered the art of
chauvinism. If chauvinism were to be declared as a
sport, India would sweep all medals at the
Olympics. A symptom of our chauvinism is apparent
in the oft repeated slogan "Mera Bharat Mahan" (My
India is great). The question that arises, is it
really so?
There has been no greatness about our country, not in the
last two thousand years or so. Our history is nothing but a
record of invasions, conquests, subjugations and enslavement.
History shows that perhaps no other country has been the
victim of invasions and conquests as much as India has been.
The Huns, Scythians, Parthians, Greeks, Mongols or whosoever
have simply marched into the country pillaged and ransacked.
As a consequence of our cowardice and failure to defend
ourselves, invaders who marched in at will, marched out with
booty and tens of thousands of Indians as slaves. The poor
underfed vegetarians from the plains were driven ruthlessly
over the mountains of Afghanistan, where they died "like
flies", as history records. The mountains themselves came to
be known as Hindu Kush Mountains. Hindu Kush does not mean
Hindu happy; it means Hindu killer, in the local language.
Geographically, the country was by far the most defensible
against battle technology available in those days. The
Himalayas form a huge bulwark towards the north. No invader,
has crossed the Himalayas into India until the Chinese 1962.
The eastern borders with Burma are rugged hills. No invader
had come, from the East, until the Japanese advanced over
7,000 kms from their island home to reach Kohima during the
Second World War. The South has a vast ocean around it. No
invader entered from the sea till Afonso de Albuquerque
conquered Goa in the sixteenth century.
All previous invasions into the country were
overland from the West. And there were just two
routes of entry into the country; the Bolan Pass
and the Khyber pass. Most of the invaders poured in
through the Khyber pass which is about thirty four
kilometers long and in places only three metres
wide. There was no other entry point into the
country. However it never occurred to our
countrymen to fortify the passes and permanently
block access to invaders.
In this context, I am reminded of the designer advertisements
being released by the Indian army inviting fellow Indians to
join the army. The advertisements are couched in a language
which practically seem to suggest that the Indian army is a
five star hotel with all sorts of facilities for those who
join it. Despite such enticing advertisements, the shortage
of manpower in the army has mounted to fourteen thousand
officers.
If we have to join the army there is only one reason to do
so; and that is because the country needs the soldiers to
defend it. It is here that patriotism comes in. No other
reason is required. One point two billion people and we are
running short of fourteen thousand officers. Can you beat
that?
I have seen how when the Government of Goa announces
vacancies for police sub inspectors, thousands of Goans apply
and are known to have paid "bribe price" of up to
Rs.15,00,000 to be selected. I understand that shortly
another batch of sub inspectors is to be recruited. The
"bribe price" has reportedly touched Rs.25,00,000.
Mark my words, there would be thousands, seeking to pull
strings and willing to pay the "bribe price" to be selected.
None of these applicants for PSIs would go anywhere near an
army selection camp where one would be gladly and freely
selected. Who wants to be at risk of being killed in the
battlefront when it is much easier to make a "killing" in the
police force? That's our patriotism.
I often wonder about the Sangh Parivar which today seems to
hold a monopoly on patriotism. The RSS itself claims a
membership of over twenty five million cadres who dressed in
khaki are frequently seen marching in military formation. The
Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene and the VHP have their tough-looking
volunteers who have unleashed their 'patriotism' in Gujarat,
Karnataka and not very long ago at Fontainhas in Panaji too.
So presumably, the Sangh Parivar is full of young energetic
country men willing to defendant the country's honour.
That being so, why does the RSS and its sister
organizations not hold camps of its patriotic
sevaks and call upon the army, to select from its
cadre? The army should be easily able to enroll
fourteen thousand officers from among the twenty
five million 'pathetic' swayam sevaks. Will the RSS
at least now prove its patriotism and provides its
cadres for recruitment into the army? It is time
that the Sangh Parivar cadres display their
patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where
the threat lies.
Our self-belief in our greatness is unfounded and the cause
of our downfall. We do not become great through self
proclamation. The rest of the world has to acknowledge our
greatness. No one does so. There is not a single field of
human endeavour where we are anywhere near the top. There is
not a single field of human endeavour where we are not near
the bottom.
Our self-glorification is not a new phenomenon. Alberuni
traveling through India in the eleventh century writes about
According to their belief, there is no other
country on earth but theirs, no other race of man
but theirs, and no created beings besides them have
any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their
haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any
science or scholar in Kurasan and Persis, they will
think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If
they traveled and mixed with other nations, they
would soon change their mind, for their ancestors
were not as narrow-minded as the present generation
is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a
passage where he calls on the people to honour the
Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must be
honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and
therein excelled others."
Nothing seems to have changed over the last millennium.
We were not alone in proclaiming our greatness. Until the
middle of the nineteenth century the Japanese were as insular
as us and had their own version of Hindutva. The Japanese
closed their ports to foreign trade. Western nations demanded
the right to trade. The Japanese refused to concede. French,
American, Dutch and British forces bombarded Japanese ports
and within a few days the Japanese navy was routed. Japan
conceded all the demands and opened its ports. Unlike us, the
Japanese did not take the defeat lying down. The Japanese
accepted that the West was far more advanced.
The Japanese people were unnerved by the unexpected defeat.
The Japanese shogun united behind the emperor Mejid Matsuhito
and handed over all powers to him so that Japan could advance
"and be able to rank equally with other Nations of the
World". The year was 1867.
Soon, great numbers of Japanese, delegations from
every craft, every city in the land, were touring
London, Paris, New York and other world centres,
behaving with the impeccable good manners so little
in evidence in foreigners who had visited Japan.
And now Japanese industrial revolution began to
speed, during this second half of the Emperor
Meiji's long reign. Factories sprang up like
mushrooms, and the ships which had so shocked and
impressed the Japanese in 1853 and which they
subsequently ordered, one by one, from the Western
world, began to be made, even faster, in Japanese
yards. The foreign monopoly of the crowded and
important steamship trade between Japan and China
was broken by a thrusting, new,
government-sponsored "Japan Mail Line". A
Western-style army and navy began to grow.
Japan was at last established as the equal of any
nation; but there was no resting on laurels. The
visits of beaming, polite, little men all over
Europe and the United States, absorbing silently
and with absolute accuracy everything they saw and
heard, went on, encouraged as before by the
emperor. Meiji journeyed widely himself, setting a
novel precedent and coming back regularly to his
domains with plans for still more improvement,
expansion in education, science, industry."
The Japanese have since emerged as the second largest economy
on earth. The Japanese have also improved physically. The
average height of a twenty one year old Japanese has
increased by twenty centimeters post Second World War. This
additional height is jokingly referred to as "hamburger
height" since it is attributed to the Japanese change to
American food habits.
Turkey, on the western frontiers of Asia had dominated the
world for nearly seven centuries. However, as the West
advanced, Turkey stagnated and came to be called the sick man
of Europe. At this time the Turks had a great fortune to see
the emergence of Kemal Attaturk who understood the cause for
the backwardness of Turkey. He united Turkey and was
determined to modernize the Nation on western lines.
"To make Turkey a strong, independent, modernized country was
now the goal. Through the National Assembly he bulldozed a
unanimous vote abolishing the Sultanate. Religion he saw as
the great enemy to progress, and as long as there was a
caliph he himself was not supreme and could not free the
people from superstition. In March, 1924, Abdul Meji was sent
packing and the State was secularized.
"There was great and growing opposition. But Kemal was utterly
ruthless. Gradually he established himself as absolute
dictator. With paternal rigour he then gave his people what
he though they needed. The fez, the symbol of the Ottoman
past, was abolished and its wearing made a crime. Monasteries
were closed, their inmates turned out to work or starve.
"Commercial, penal and civil codes were imported from abroad
and antiquated Moslem laws were swept. The metric system was
introduced and the Gregorian calendar. Polygamy was abolished
and women were given equal rights with men. Down to the
smallest detail of social life, time honoured habits were
hacked away and in the clearing made the Turk was set on his
feet and told to behave like a modern man.
"But only two or three per cent of the people were literate
and this was partly due to the inadequacy of Arabic
characters for writing Turkish. In 1928 Kemal, substituted
the Latin alphabet and toured the country teaching the new
signs."
The tragedy of our country is that we are yet to
find our emperor Meji or Kemal Attaturk.
Superstition wrapped in ritual continues to hold
sway. As custom. As tradition. As religion. No
leader or political party has the courage to
challenge superstition.
We are still lost in the back woods since we refuse to
acknowledge our own weaknesses and correct them as the
Japanese or Turks have done. We have to admit that we are a
cesspool of superstitions and corruptions, dishonesty and
deceit. We have stagnated and failed to evolve and advance.
Our contribution to civilization, (and it cannot be disputed)
is "zero". No pun intended. We have become the coelacanth, of
civilization. We are not great. We have to strive to be great.
[The author is a South Goa lawyer, and former member of the
Goa legislative assembly, known for his forthright, if
sometimes controversial, views. Feedback can be sent to him
via carlosnoronha at yahoo.com ]
Santosh Helekar
2010-06-30 06:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Thoughtful valid self-criticism is always welcome. Indeed it is essential for any kind of progress to occur. It is a hallmark of rational thought and scientific inquiry. But the article in question has very little to offer in this vein.

On the contrary, as Amita Kanekar so nicely pointed out, it consists almost entirely of sweeping generalizations and inaccurate exaggerations, whose main purpose is polemical, to counter the jingoism on the opposite political fringe, namely that of RSS and other Hindu nationalists. It is the tired old self-loathing of the left against the nauseating chauvinism of the right.

Smearing is something else, which fortunately this article does not do. Smearing involves the making of baseless slanderous accusations against individuals or communities in public forums. Good examples of smearing can be found in an article entitled "Skin-deep Secularism" written by Admin Noronha in Herald last year.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick Noronha
Easy to dismiss any criticism as
"self-loathing", "smearing" etc. That
way, almost anything could be dismissively cast aside
and written
away! Where's the space then for critical thought and
questioning
then?
As far as Radha's point on the RSS goes, I saw it
differently. He was
merely pointing out to their hypocrisy -- talk about
"patriotism" but
not do something like join the army and risk getting
killed
themselves. In other words, ahem, something like skin-deep
patriotism!
While I don't agree entirely with Gracias, and believe some
of the
comparisons (with Japan, Turkey) might not be apt, because
our history
has been so different, he does through up an interesting
challenge to
think about.
FN
manuel tavares
2010-07-01 00:41:07 UTC
Permalink
What a superb , well thought, balances and truthfully analytic portrayal of ourselves. People across the whole Political, Social and Cultural spectrum of Indian society ought to read this and draw inspiration from the pearls of wisdom which are thrown here as a challenge to Indians one and all to look deeply into ourselves and instead of basking in false glory of what we consider to be our superiority, consider our folly instead and act now to reverse the trend. We should venture out seeking innovations in Science, Medicine, Engineering and all other fields applying them to better our lives, ridding ourselves of antiquated customs and superstitions which are constantly pushing us down and embrace modern Western ideas if we are ever to emerge as a World Power. China is Growing faster than ever and will soon be a dominant force in world affairs. The Chinese are already looking forward towards an even more sustained and prosperous future by investing in energy, and commodities not only internally but internationally with a view to guaranteeing their future growth, while we in India continue destruction of our environment and exporting our Iron Ore and other commodities to China. Why cannot we utilize these ourselves and ensure our own Growth. Selfishness Corruption and Greed are consuming us wholesale and this will lead to the destruction of India and may lead in future to the invasion of India by China who will see no obstacles in their way. Our Indian Army cannot even get enough recruits to fulfill its current commitments do you think that if we continue on this current course, we will have enough to defend ourselves in the future?

Manuel (Eddie) Tavares.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-01 11:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in response to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented in India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the civilisation between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they also used it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa civilisation may have followed uo on that!

More importantly Indians of old remained at Zero! Even today India is stuck with counting in Lacs and crores; while the rest of the world has moved on to Millions, billions trillions and zillions. The ancient culture has remained ancient! The modern computing systems are based on the Binary system of counting, and boolean algebra; why? because the computer machine is based on just two states (On or OFF) of the transisitor switch, the flip flop etc. hence the British system of binary count came in handy. The decimal equivalent fed into computers are converted into binary code thru countless algorihtms, and the resultant reconverted into decimal code. There is no other way!

Decimal system is very good indeed; the world cannot do without it, but computers do not need it.

Nothing else that is good for humanity or the world at large has come from the ancient Indian culture.

Oh yes; India gave the world: Kama Sutra and Yoga!
One smart Indian saw that peole are enjoying thenselves having good sex and enjoying themselves when India was like paradise! So he wrote, compiled a book showing all the positions and rigours etc. Produce more babies,so that the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas will have more servants and lowly people available for slavery into menial work. What a wonderful brahmin concept. Should the world be grateful for that? Of course not.

Then came another smart Indian; who saw that people were having all sorts of physical and mental problems with too much sex and positions demonstrated in the Kams Sutra! etc. He advised Yoga so that people can control their emotions, their activities and above all their mind too. This Indian I like. This is something good for the world; not that it is not manifest in other cultures in different ways. Give him the credit.

Nothing else that is good comes to mind that India may have discovered or invented original.
Even The simple MOP has yet to arrive in India. Servants are yet made to go down on their knees to swap the floor for the badda sahibs!! Yak!

"Ancient Culture Indeed" But is it Good?? I do not think so. The world is laughing. LOL!!!!

Nascy Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
From: Jim Fernandes <amigo007 at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
Post by Jim Fernandes
I don't give much importance to the
invention of "zero" by an ancient Indian to arithmetic. If
the decimal numbering system was the only system humans
used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.
The entire field of electronics and computer science uses
binary, octal or hexa-decimal numbering systems. Therefore,
I feel the "zero" would have been discovered by humans one
way or another anyway.
The concept of "zero" is an ancient discovery. What else
has been discovered or invented by Indians in modern India?
Almost every Indian nobel winner in science I can think of,
became successful, only after they migrated out of the
country.
Jim F
New York
On Jun 29, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Post by Jim Fernandes
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic
nonsense on one fringe with something even worse from the
opposite fringe.
...
...
...
Post by Jim Fernandes
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to
mathematics was one of the most significant inventions of
humankind. It was as transformative as the` invention of
calculus.
Post by Jim Fernandes
Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-02 05:50:51 UTC
Permalink
One of the misfortunes of India is Indians like Nascy who have never had any attachment to their motherland or their fellow countrymen, let alone any sense of pride, responsibility or duty towards them. In my opinion, along with corruption and other ills, the disgraceful attitude displayed, time and again, by these ungrateful folk is another major impediment to India's progress. What is worse is that they have cultivated this disposition, not out of any real knowledge or insight, but out of pure ignorance about India's history and its contribution to world culture, art, sculpture, music, philosophy, etc, as is clear from Nascy's boorish post appended below.

The post below and the earlier one by Jim makes it clear that their Indian authors have never heard of 20th century stalwarts such as Srinivasa Ramanujan, Chandrasekhar Venkat Raman, Satyendra Nath Bose or Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis. They have absolutely no idea what kinds of contributions are being made as we speak by institutions like the Indian Statistical Institute in Kolkata or the numerous outfits in India's own silicon valley.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in response
to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented in
India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the civilisation
between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are
claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they also used
it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa civilisation
may have followed uo on that!
Marshall Mendonza
2010-07-03 05:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Radharao Gracias:
Will the RSS at least now prove its patriotism and provides its cadres for
recruitment into the army? It is time that the Sangh Parivar cadres display
their patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where the threat lies.

Response:
I am reminded of an incident narrated by J F Ribeiro during the course of a
debate on 'Big Fight'. When Mr Ribeiro was the Police Commissioner of
Bombay, the Shiv Sena used to regularly go on a rampage every now and then.
They would be arrested and then released under political pressure. This went
on for sometime. One day they crossed the limits and Mr Ribeiro decided to
handle the situation unconventionally. Winking at his deputies, Mr Ribeiro
said to them in a loud tone,( within earshot of the arrested shiv sainiks)
to get the arrested shiv sainiks enrolled immediately into the army, and
have them sent to the Indo-Pak border so that they could show their bravado
which was being displayed on the streets of Bombay. In next to no time, the
shiv sainiks fell at his feet and whimpering promised to keep out of
trouble. After that incident, Mr Ribeiro never faced any trouble from the
SS.

Similarly, the sangh parivar cadres could be recruited into the army and a
separate regiment created for them. They could then be deployed in J&K on
the Indo-Pak border. They could also be sent to Afganistan to take care of
the Taliban or to Iraq to help the beleaguered US forces. They could even be
outsourced to the UN to be deployed in troublespots like Somalia, Nigeria,
Croatia.

Regards,

Marshall
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-03 09:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Santosh,
U mention great stalwarts, but U do not say what if anything 'original' they discovered or invented. Philosophers are found in thousands all over the world, and they are unproductive.

Secondly U say that me and Jim type are divorced from Indian reality, India and ungrateful; for what? the shen and cow's urine?
That is how India brings shame to all Indians in India and abroad.

I am enlightened compared to the majority of Indians. That is the reason I may be able to see more clearly the total picture from above (culturally above). I can therefor analyse the status in India better than those who appreciate their own shit in conservative blindness!

Open your eyes and LOOK rather than just SEE; and U will realise how unproductive and uncouth the India I love and that I am born in, is.
U do agree that it is foreigners, the world at large that must appreciate India not the saffron and non saffron type of ignorant Indians who are looking at their own tail; they are not looking beyond. How sad?

I hope all Indians grow up to take a good look at themselves compared to the world outside and not within only. Good and or Bad has meaning only when compared; else everything is either good or bad, on individual perception. This is exactly your mistake, Santosh

Nascy Caldeira
Post by Santosh Helekar
One of the misfortunes of India is
Indians like Nascy who have never had any attachment to
their motherland or their fellow countrymen, let alone any
sense of pride, responsibility or duty towards them. In my
opinion, along with corruption and other ills, the
disgraceful attitude displayed, time and again, by these
ungrateful folk is another major impediment to India's
progress.
The post below and the earlier one by Jim makes it clear
that their Indian authors have never heard of 20th century
stalwarts such as Srinivasa Ramanujan, Chandrasekhar Venkat
Raman, Satyendra Nath Bose or Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis.
They have absolutely no idea what kinds of contributions are
being made as we speak by institutions like the Indian
Statistical Institute in Kolkata or the numerous outfits in
India's own silicon valley.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Nascy Caldeira <nascycal at yahoo.com.au>
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in
response
Post by Nascy Caldeira
to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented
in
Post by Nascy Caldeira
India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the
civilisation
Post by Nascy Caldeira
between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are
claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they
also used
Post by Nascy Caldeira
it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa
civilisation
Post by Nascy Caldeira
may have followed uo on that!
? ? ?
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-03 13:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Nascy,

Here is why it is you, in addition to the corrupt politicians and some irresponsible Indians, who bring shame to India.

1. You are completely clueless about the great stalwarts of 20th century India, who were mathematical and scientific geniuses, and whose work contributed to the technological advances of today. You call them philosphers. How shameful!

2. You do not know what being civilized is, and how well regarded Indian civilization is among scholars and educated people of the rest of the world.

3. One example of how uncivilized your behavior is, is the fact that you tar all Indians with the same broad brush because of the beliefs and activities of some that you dislike.

4. You are unable to recognize what is good, bad and inconsequential about culture in general. You have never been able to point out a single good thing about India and Indians, despite having been asked to do so, repeatedly. You claim about love for India rings hollow.

Shame on you!

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
U mention great stalwarts, but U do not say what if
anything 'original' they discovered or invented.
Philosophers are found in thousands all over the world, and
they are unproductive.
Secondly U say that me and Jim type are divorced from
Indian reality, India and ungrateful; for what? the shen and
cow's urine?
That is how India brings shame to all Indians in India and
abroad.
I am enlightened compared to the majority of Indians. That
is the reason I may be able to see more clearly the total
picture from above (culturally above). I can therefor
analyse the status in India better than those who appreciate
their own shit in conservative blindness!
Open your eyes and LOOK rather than just SEE; and U will
realise how unproductive and uncouth the India I love and
that I am born in, is.
U do agree that it is foreigners, the world at large that
must appreciate India not the saffron and non saffron type
of ignorant Indians who are looking at their own tail; they
are not looking beyond. How sad?
I hope all Indians grow up to take a good look at
themselves compared to the world outside and not within
only. Good and or Bad has meaning only when compared; else
everything is either good or bad, on individual perception.
This is exactly your mistake, Santosh
Nascy Caldeira
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-03 17:03:55 UTC
Permalink
As I have said before, criticism has to be legitimate and substantive. It has to result from a genuine appraisal of facts. Criticism borne out of ignorance, prejudice or political bias is worthless. It misdirects our efforts at finding remedies, and contributes to the perpetuation of ignorance and alienation. For example, contrary to what it is stated below, and in the past, frequently by Admin Noronha and others, there is no such thing as Indian science or an Eastern science and a western science. Science is universal. Modern and ancient Indians working in India have contributed to it. Nobody can deny this fact.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick Noronha
The contribution of traditional societies to "modern"
knowledge
remains understudied and not adequately acknowledged.?
Just? came
across a journal which proposes to do this, Vigyan Bharati
Pradeepika
"dedicated to identify and rediscover the original Indian
science and
technology in a modern context". (rof Sureshwar Sharma,
Udayachal,
1881, Gupteshwar, Jabalpur 482001 MP).
Quite some time ago, I attended (as a correspondent) a
couple of
"traditional science congresses". These were held at the
IIT-Bombay
and, if I recall right, the Anna University in Chennai.
While there
was an element of mumbo-jumbo and unsubstantiated claims
being made,
there were many amazing facts coming to light there too.
Nonetheless, whatever the achievements of the remote and
recent past,
I feel we should always retain a critical element, and be
willing to
accept criticism or counterviews. If it's true, then we
need to face
up to it; if not, we can ignore it. At the very least, a
challenge to
one's position is a kind of reality check. FN
Jim Fernandes
2010-07-03 17:32:59 UTC
Permalink
I do not totally discount what Santosh says. But we need to put our thoughts into current context and perspectives.

He listed four Indian individuals below who he considers as having made radical discoveries or inventions. These individuals may be considered great heroes in India, but what he fails to admit is the fact that, out of a billion plus population in India, we Indians do not contribute proportionally to global advances and discoveries.

By the way, out of these four individuals, I have only heard of two - C V Raman, for the Raman Effect and S N Bose - a famous physicist in whose honor, the sub-atomic particles Bosons are named.

I wouldn't shy away from criticizing India and its government where it is due. To me, India is not only a weak country, but it also ain't got the balls to fight for what it is rightfully due.

Take for instance, the current case of oil spill by BP in the Gulf of Mexico. The Obama administration went after the British company and made sure that BP is going to put up 20 billion dollars in an escrow account to pay for the cleanup and other expenses.

In contrast, what did India do, when the toxic gas spill ocurred in Bhopal that killed some 3000 people? They managed to get peanuts from the American owned company and the perpertrators have been given a pat on the wrist! If a disaster of this magnitude had to happen in the United States, the US government would have shaken Heaven and Earth to make its people whole.

Indians in general, are not true innovators; but we are very good at copying what others do. Take for example, all the hottest TV shows running in India. They are mostly copy-cats of the Western shows. Even the movie industry in India, copied its name from 'Hollywood' and changed it to 'Bollywood'!

India hardly produces any talent in sports either - the evidence of which is clearly displayed during the Olympics. If all the "football" playing countries had to play cricket, India would be lucky to appear in the bottom fifty!

Even though India produces hundreds of thousands highly technical people each year, how many high technology gadgets do you see, come out of India? Ofcourse, its not all the fault of poor Indian people - but its the government policy that discourages innovation. It is also the fault of Indian corporations that spend very little on research and development. In contrast, Western governments and their companies, spend billions on research and development.

Every smart nation knows the next biggest game changing technologies are going to be in the field of 'clean energy' and genetic science. How much money, do you think India is investing to target the next biggest discoveries in these fields?

In India, if a billionaire has money, he spends it on building a billion dollar house. In the US, the billionaires are giving away their wealth to charities - and the money is mostly spent on the poor who reside outside the US.

We seem to love to bask in past glory and India's rich history. Indians were just a bunch of poor peasants ruled by princely kings. Hello? India was not even a formal country until some sixty years ago. If it hadn't been for the Brits, modern India, as we know it today, would not be there as a single nation.

I speak and understand very little Hindi, but I know what the phrase 'Saare Jahan Se Accha' means. Sadly, India is not it - which is why, I had to move out of there.

Even then, for all its faults, we still love Goa and India - because we all have our roots there.

Jim F
New York.
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
To: " estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 1:50 AM
One of the misfortunes of India is
Indians like Nascy who have never had any attachment to
their motherland or their fellow countrymen, let alone any
sense of pride, responsibility or duty towards them. In my
opinion, along with corruption and other ills, the
disgraceful attitude displayed, time and again, by these
ungrateful folk is another major impediment to India's
...
...
The post below and the earlier one by Jim makes it clear
that their Indian authors have never heard of 20th century
stalwarts such as Srinivasa Ramanujan, Chandrasekhar Venkat
Raman, Satyendra Nath Bose or Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis.
...
...
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-03 21:28:21 UTC
Permalink
Good to know that, unlike Nascy, Jim has heard of two Indian scientists mentioned by me. But from the earlier claim of zero contributions by Indians we now have the goal post being moved to lack of proportional contribution. Is this supposed to be contribution per capita or contribution per capita income? How much have Australia, South Africa, the Gulf states and most European countries contributed per capita income towards innovation and scientific advancement in the world? Indeed, more than 90% of the technological advancements have come from the United States.

Nevertheless, unlike Nascy, Jim appears to have some genuine concerns, and makes genuine points with respect to government and private sector apathy in India when it comes to research and development. The lack of philanthropy on these fronts is also a huge problem. On these points, I agree with him completely.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Jim Fernandes
I do not totally discount what
Santosh says. But we need to put our thoughts into current
context and perspectives.
He listed four Indian individuals below who he considers as
having made radical discoveries or inventions. These
individuals may be considered great heroes in India, but
what he fails to admit is the fact that, out of a billion
plus population in India, we Indians do not contribute
proportionally to global advances and discoveries.
By the way, out of these four individuals, I have only
heard of two - C V Raman, for the Raman Effect and S N Bose
- a famous physicist in whose honor, the sub-atomic
particles Bosons are named.
I wouldn't shy away from criticizing India and its
government where it is due. To me, India is not only a weak
country, but it also ain't got the balls to fight for what
it is rightfully due.
Take for instance, the current case of oil spill by BP in
the Gulf of Mexico. The Obama administration went after the
British company and made sure that BP is going to put up 20
billion dollars in an escrow account to pay for the cleanup
and other expenses.
In contrast, what did India do, when the toxic gas spill
ocurred in Bhopal that killed some 3000 people? They managed
to get peanuts from the American owned company and the
perpertrators have been given a pat on the wrist! If a
disaster of this magnitude had to happen in the United
States, the US government would have shaken Heaven and Earth
to make its people whole.
Indians in general, are not true innovators; but we are
very good at copying what others do. Take for example, all
the hottest TV shows running in India. They are mostly
copy-cats of the Western shows. Even the movie industry in
India, copied its name from 'Hollywood' and changed it to
'Bollywood'!
India hardly produces any talent in sports either - the
evidence of which is clearly displayed during the Olympics.
If all the "football" playing countries had to play cricket,
India would be lucky to appear in the bottom fifty!
Even though India produces hundreds of thousands highly
technical people each year, how many high technology gadgets
do you see, come out of India? Ofcourse, its not all the
fault of poor Indian people - but its the government policy
that discourages innovation. It is also the fault of Indian
corporations that spend very little on research and
development. In contrast, Western governments and their
companies, spend billions on research and development.
Every smart nation knows the next biggest game changing
technologies are going to be in the field of 'clean energy'
and genetic science. How much money, do you think India is
investing to target the next biggest discoveries in these
fields?
In India, if a billionaire has money, he spends it on
building a billion dollar house. In the US, the billionaires
are giving away their wealth to charities - and the money is
mostly spent on the poor who reside outside the US.
We seem to love to bask in past glory and India's rich
history. Indians were just a bunch of poor peasants ruled by
princely kings. Hello? India was not even a formal country
until some sixty years ago. If it hadn't been for the Brits,
modern India, as we know it today, would not be there as a
single nation.
I speak and understand very little Hindi, but I know what
the phrase 'Saare Jahan Se Accha' means. Sadly, India is not
it - which is why, I had to move out of there.
Even then, for all its faults, we still love Goa and India
- because we all have our roots there.
Jim F
New York.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-04 13:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Santosh,
U are definitely on the back foot here! U are deliberately distorting what JIm has said. I too will support all that Jim has written, and I kow about these two great persons he mentions. But my point is made that there was nothing 'original' in their doscoveries and or inventions, only supplementory stuff! OK?

Nascy Caldeira
Post by Santosh Helekar
Good to know that, unlike Nascy, Jim
has heard of two Indian scientists mentioned by me. But from
the earlier claim of zero contributions by Indians we now
have the goal post being moved to lack of proportional
contribution. Is this supposed to be contribution per capita
or contribution per capita income? How much have Australia,
South Africa, the Gulf states and most European countries
contributed per capita income towards innovation and
scientific advancement in the world? Indeed, more than 90%
of the technological advancements have come from the United
States.
Nevertheless, unlike Nascy, Jim appears to have some
genuine concerns, and makes genuine points with respect to
government and private sector apathy in India when it comes
to research and development. The lack of philanthropy on
these fronts is also a huge problem. On these points, I
agree with him completely.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Sat, 7/3/10, Jim Fernandes <amigo007 at att.net>
Post by Jim Fernandes
I do not totally discount what
Santosh says. But we need to put our thoughts into
current
Post by Jim Fernandes
context and perspectives.
He listed four Indian individuals below who he
considers as
Post by Jim Fernandes
having made radical discoveries or inventions. These
individuals may be considered great heroes in India,
but
Post by Jim Fernandes
what he fails to admit is the fact that, out of a
billion
Post by Jim Fernandes
plus population in India, we Indians do not
contribute
Post by Jim Fernandes
proportionally to global advances and discoveries.
By the way, out of these four individuals, I have
only
Post by Jim Fernandes
heard of two - C V Raman, for the Raman Effect and S N
Bose
Post by Jim Fernandes
- a famous physicist in whose honor, the sub-atomic
particles Bosons are named.
I wouldn't shy away from criticizing India and its
government where it is due. To me, India is not only a
weak
Post by Jim Fernandes
country, but it also ain't got the balls to fight for
what
Post by Jim Fernandes
it is rightfully due.
Take for instance, the current case of oil spill by BP
in
Post by Jim Fernandes
the Gulf of Mexico. The Obama administration went
after the
Post by Jim Fernandes
British company and made sure that BP is going to put
up 20
Post by Jim Fernandes
billion dollars in an escrow account to pay for the
cleanup
Post by Jim Fernandes
and other expenses.
In contrast, what did India do, when the toxic gas
spill
Post by Jim Fernandes
ocurred in Bhopal that killed some 3000 people? They
managed
Post by Jim Fernandes
to get peanuts from the American owned company and
the
Post by Jim Fernandes
perpertrators have been given a pat on the wrist! If
a
Post by Jim Fernandes
disaster of this magnitude had to happen in the
United
Post by Jim Fernandes
States, the US government would have shaken Heaven and
Earth
Post by Jim Fernandes
to make its people whole.
Indians in general, are not true innovators; but we
are
Post by Jim Fernandes
very good at copying what others do. Take for example,
all
Post by Jim Fernandes
the hottest TV shows running in India. They are
mostly
Post by Jim Fernandes
copy-cats of the Western shows. Even the movie
industry in
Post by Jim Fernandes
India, copied its name from 'Hollywood' and changed it
to
Post by Jim Fernandes
'Bollywood'!
India hardly produces any talent in sports either -
the
Post by Jim Fernandes
evidence of which is clearly displayed during the
Olympics.
Post by Jim Fernandes
If all the "football" playing countries had to play
cricket,
Post by Jim Fernandes
India would be lucky to appear in the bottom fifty!
Even though India produces hundreds of thousands
highly
Post by Jim Fernandes
technical people each year, how many high technology
gadgets
Post by Jim Fernandes
do you see, come out of India? Ofcourse, its not all
the
Post by Jim Fernandes
fault of poor Indian people - but its the government
policy
Post by Jim Fernandes
that discourages innovation. It is also the fault of
Indian
Post by Jim Fernandes
corporations that spend very little on research and
development. In contrast, Western governments and
their
Post by Jim Fernandes
companies, spend billions on research and
development.
Post by Jim Fernandes
Every smart nation knows the next biggest game
changing
Post by Jim Fernandes
technologies are going to be in the field of 'clean
energy'
Post by Jim Fernandes
and genetic science. How much money, do you think
India is
Post by Jim Fernandes
investing to target the next biggest discoveries in
these
Post by Jim Fernandes
fields?
In India, if a billionaire has money, he spends it on
building a billion dollar house. In the US, the
billionaires
Post by Jim Fernandes
are giving away their wealth to charities - and the
money is
Post by Jim Fernandes
mostly spent on the poor who reside outside the US.
We seem to love to bask in past glory and India's
rich
Post by Jim Fernandes
history. Indians were just a bunch of poor peasants
ruled by
Post by Jim Fernandes
princely kings. Hello? India was not even a formal
country
Post by Jim Fernandes
until some sixty years ago. If it hadn't been for the
Brits,
Post by Jim Fernandes
modern India, as we know it today, would not be there
as a
Post by Jim Fernandes
single nation.
I speak and understand very little Hindi, but I know
what
Post by Jim Fernandes
the phrase 'Saare Jahan Se Accha' means. Sadly, India
is not
Post by Jim Fernandes
it - which is why, I had to move out of there.
Even then, for all its faults, we still love Goa and
India
Post by Jim Fernandes
- because we all have our roots there.
Jim F
New York.
? ? ?
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-04 13:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Santosh,
I asked U about the stalwarts,that U mention and U are saying that I said they are philosophers. Are they philosophers is what I meant asking you, OK?

I acknowledge and so does the world that India has produced many a mathemathical genius and many a science genious too; but what great 'original' discoveries or 'original' inventions have come from these great persons who are talking about?

I do not know. Have they? then U may please enumerate for our knowledge. Simple as that.

I have said to you before that Indian total Culture is good; but there are many Bad and Ugly parts,and Bad concepts in Indian Culture that are giving all Indians a bad name. This is my primary 'resentment' And the educated Hindu Indians are doing nothing about it! Because of these shameful practices all Indians get the bad name; outsiders will not and do not pick and choose which Indian is good; They simply lump all of us togather as Bad and Ugly.

You know and must analyse the fact that: "The Strenght of a Chain is its Weakest Link"". There are too many weak links with the stupid bad and ugly, in Indian Culture, starting with so called Hindu religion, and other fields of human endeavour. Last week, I was invited by a white Australian family (where the head of family is an Uni Professor with a Doctorate. He asked me if I would be content with a good Lamb Dish that they had in mind to serve at table. I had to correct them; that I am not the Indian who eats only Lamb but prefers Beef and Pork and Chicken,in that order with lots of veges too. Most people here think that Indians only eat bloody lamb; in fact it is being advertised as such to sell; as the sale of lamb by choice is lower than Beef. 'multi cultural food' my foot. Indians are mono cultural, never multi cultural by and large. This is but one example that tells how all Indians are bracketed because of stupid Indian culture and beliefs.

Insated of correcting these, most Indians are trying to praise their Tail that is nothing but Stink. I say. That is why I am shouting from the House Top. I am also Indian and that is the reason I feel so badly about India in general, that does not allow me to really hold my head high when I walk and live in foreign lands.

Santosh I am telling U once again; by itself everything is good; but when 'compared' to the worlds cultures, Indian Culture stinks and needs to be reformatted and NOW.

Nascy Caldeira.
Post by Santosh Helekar
Nascy,
Here is why it is you, in addition to the corrupt
politicians and some irresponsible Indians, who bring shame
to India.
{Nascy: It is not me who worships animals and other weird deities and glorifies cow's urine and not Milk, and imposes these stupidities on all others!!! Hah Hah Ha!} I am thus HURT!
Post by Santosh Helekar
1. You are completely clueless about the great stalwarts of
20th century India, who were mathematical and scientific
geniuses, and whose work contributed to the technological
advances of today. You call them philosphers. How shameful!
2. You do not know what being civilized is, and how well
regarded Indian civilization is among scholars and educated
people of the rest of the world.
3. One example of how uncivilized your behavior is, is the
fact that you tar all Indians with the same broad brush
because of the beliefs and activities of some that you
dislike.
4. You are unable to recognize what is good, bad and
inconsequential about culture in general. You have never
been able to point out a single good thing about India and
Indians, despite having been asked to do so, repeatedly. You
claim about love for India rings hollow.
Shame on you!
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Sat, 7/3/10, Nascy Caldeira <nascycal at yahoo.com.au>
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
U mention great stalwarts, but U do not say what if
anything 'original' they discovered or invented.
Philosophers are found in thousands all over the
world, and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
they are unproductive.
Secondly U say that me and Jim type are divorced from
Indian reality, India and ungrateful; for what? the
shen and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
cow's urine?
That is how India brings shame to all Indians in India
and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
abroad.
I am enlightened compared to the majority of Indians.
That
Post by Nascy Caldeira
is the reason I may be able to see more clearly the
total
Post by Nascy Caldeira
picture from above (culturally above). I can therefor
analyse the status in India better than those who
appreciate
Post by Nascy Caldeira
their own shit in conservative blindness!
Open your eyes and LOOK rather than just SEE; and U
will
Post by Nascy Caldeira
realise how unproductive and uncouth the India I love
and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that I am born in, is.
U do agree that it is foreigners, the world at large
that
Post by Nascy Caldeira
must appreciate India not the saffron and non saffron
type
Post by Nascy Caldeira
of ignorant Indians who are looking at their own tail;
they
Post by Nascy Caldeira
are not looking beyond. How sad?
? I hope all Indians grow up to take a good look
at
Post by Nascy Caldeira
themselves compared to the world outside and not
within
Post by Nascy Caldeira
only. Good and or Bad has meaning only when compared;
else
Post by Nascy Caldeira
everything is either good or bad, on individual
perception.
Post by Nascy Caldeira
This is exactly your mistake, Santosh
Nascy Caldeira
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-04 18:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Nascy,

What you have written below and in an accompanying post is utter rubbish. You are fixated on what people eat, and how they dress. If they eat and dress like you, you call them civilized. Talk about mono-cultural, this is mono-maniacal stupidity. I am quite certain that the Australian professor who invited you for dinner would be laughing at you. He would certainly not have the prejudice against Indian culture that you as an Indian have based on idiotic notions such as eating beef and pork being better than eating lamb and chicken. I say it again. It is people like you who have migrated to Australia and elsewhere with your ignorance about your own motherland that are bringing shame to India. This incident with the professor illustrates it quite nicely.

Your bogus charge about lack of originality, which you make despite being totally ignorant about the discoveries of Ramanujan, Raman, Bose and Mahalanobis, is also a classic illustration of your bigotry against your own people. Anybody else would have been embarrassed by the nonsense you have written, not knowing that these Indians were some of the world's greatest mathematicians and scientists.

Ramanujan has been regarded by the rest of the world as one of the pre-eminent mathematical geniuses of all time. His original discoveries have led to the birth of severe new disciplines of mathematical research. An entire scholarly journal called "The Ramanujan Journal" is being published bimonthly since 1997 to report on original research stemming from his discoveries. Here is a description of that journal and a link to it:

QUOTE
The remarkable discoveries made by Srinivasa Ramanujan have made a great impact on several branches of mathematics, revealing deep and fundamental connections. This journal publishes papers of the highest quality in all areas of mathematics influenced by Ramanujan, including:

Hyper-geometric and basic hyper-geometric series (q-series) * Partitions, compositions and combinatory analysis * Circle method and asymptotic formulae * Mock theta functions * Elliptic and theta functions * Modular forms and automorphic functions * Special functions and definite integrals * Continued fractions * Diophantine analysis including irrationality and transcendence * Number theory * Fourier analysis with applications to number theory * Connections between Lie algebras and q-series.
UNQUOTE

http://springerlink.com/content/102986/?sortorder=asc

Raman made the original discovery of a new physical phenomenon, which earned him the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1930, and led to many technological advancements since, including Raman spectroscopy to identify the structure of various chemicals. Here is his official Nobel Prize webpage:

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1930/raman-bio.html

S. N. Bose made one of the most astounding original discoveries in Quantum Mechanics, which led to the birth of a new field in Physics called Bose-Einstein Statistics. This has led to the award of, not one, but several Nobel Prizes in Physics, the most recent one being in 2001 for the experimental confirmation of Bose-Einstein condensate, a completely new state of matter predicted by Bose's theory. Here is the Nobel Prize website for that discovery:

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2001/public.html

Mahalanobis was one of the world's great pioneers in Multi-variate Statistics and statistical surveys. His original discoveries are being used everyday in most statistical studies and in econometrics today, as well as to develop expert systems for data mining and for stock market and financial predictions.

I say once again. It is not the poor illiterate Indians who give India a bad name. The people who do so are supposedly educated people like you who, instead of learning about the real problems that India faces and trying to solve them, spit on it out of ignorance and prejudice because of your knee-jerk fawning tendency towards everything that is foreign.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
I asked U about the stalwarts,that U mention and U are
saying that I said they are philosophers. Are they
philosophers is what I meant asking you, OK?
I acknowledge and so does the world that India has produced
many a mathemathical genius and many a science genious too;
but what great 'original' discoveries or 'original'
inventions have come from these great persons who are
talking about?
I do not know. Have they? then U may please enumerate for
our knowledge. Simple as that.
I have said to you before that Indian total Culture is
good; but there are many Bad and Ugly parts,and Bad concepts
in Indian Culture that are giving all Indians a bad name.
This is my primary 'resentment' And the educated Hindu
Indians are doing nothing about it! Because of these
shameful practices all Indians get the bad name; outsiders
will not and do not pick and choose which Indian is good;
They simply lump all of us togather as Bad and Ugly.
You know and must analyse the fact that: "The Strenght of a
Chain is its Weakest Link"". There are too many weak links
with the stupid bad and ugly, in Indian Culture, starting
with so called Hindu religion, and other fields of human
endeavour. Last week, I was invited by a white Australian
family (where the head of family is an Uni Professor with a
Doctorate. He asked me if I would be content with a good
Lamb Dish that they had in mind to serve at table. I had to
correct them; that I am not the Indian who eats only Lamb
but prefers Beef and Pork and Chicken,in that order with
lots of veges too. Most people here think that Indians only
eat bloody lamb; in fact it is being advertised as such to
sell; as the sale of lamb by choice is lower than Beef.
'multi cultural food' my foot. Indians are mono cultural,
never multi cultural by and large. This is but one example
that tells how all Indians are bracketed because of stupid
Indian culture and beliefs.
Insated of correcting these, most Indians are trying to
praise their Tail that is nothing but Stink. I say. That is
why I am shouting from the House Top. I am also Indian and
that is the reason I feel so badly about India in general,
that does not allow me to really hold my head high when I
walk and live in foreign lands.
Santosh I am telling U once again; by itself everything is
good; but when 'compared' to the worlds cultures, Indian
Culture stinks and needs to be reformatted and NOW.
Nascy Caldeira.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-06 09:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Santosh!
How righteous you are! That is the reason why all Indians go abroad to UK and USA to advance their studies and research. And most of all, nobody comes to India for any higher studies, except to see the Khajurao temples?

I do know and accept re Raman etc; U should note that these persons achieved during the Raj, nothing before or after from Indian soil.

The incident I mentioned re the professor who invited me is to show you how all Indians are "stereotyped" irrespective, like the unenlightened Indians taht most are; since that is what, they the foreigners see and know thru the media. That is my complaint; not that lamb is bad or worse than other food.

I do hope more and more Indians will be able to achieve in all fields of human endeavour, in future. We, since I am also Indian, have failed this world very badly indeed. What I would like to say is this: that the west namely the Europeans have achieved, discovered and invented all this time, for centuries, hardly anything from India and or Asia. Even the Japanese have nothing of their own; but their business men are what pushed them to go abroad, learn and achieve, and they triumphed albeit with foreign knowledge. Indians are just starting to do that, and achieving; but the credit for most discoveries and inventions go to the Europeans, old and new.
I do hope Indians will give credit where due; instead of wagging their tail where not due, and deriding the west.

Cheers!
Nascy Caldeira
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
To: " estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Received: Monday, 5 July, 2010, 4:53 AM
Nascy,
What you have written below and in an accompanying post is
utter rubbish. You are fixated on what people eat, and how
they dress. If they eat and dress like you, you call them
civilized. Talk about mono-cultural, this is mono-maniacal
stupidity. I am quite certain that the Australian professor
who invited you for dinner would be laughing at you. He
would certainly not have the prejudice against Indian
culture that you as an Indian have based on idiotic notions
such as eating beef and pork being better than eating lamb
and chicken. I say it again. It is people like you who have
migrated to Australia and elsewhere with your ignorance
about your own motherland that are bringing shame to India.
This incident with the professor illustrates it quite
nicely.
Your bogus charge about lack of originality, which you make
despite being totally ignorant about the discoveries of
Ramanujan, Raman, Bose and Mahalanobis, is also a classic
illustration of your bigotry against your own people.?
Anybody else would have been embarrassed by the nonsense you
have written, not knowing that these Indians were some of
the world's greatest mathematicians and scientists.
Ramanujan has been regarded by the rest of the world as one
of the pre-eminent mathematical geniuses of all time. His
original discoveries have led to the birth of severe new
disciplines of mathematical research. An entire scholarly
journal called "The Ramanujan Journal" is being published
bimonthly since 1997 to report on original research stemming
from his discoveries. Here is a description of that journal
QUOTE
The remarkable discoveries made by Srinivasa Ramanujan have
made a great impact on several branches of mathematics,
revealing deep and fundamental connections. This journal
publishes papers of the highest quality in all areas of
Hyper-geometric and basic hyper-geometric series (q-series)
* Partitions, compositions and combinatory analysis * Circle
method and asymptotic formulae * Mock theta functions *
Elliptic and theta functions * Modular forms and automorphic
functions * Special functions and definite integrals *
Continued fractions * Diophantine analysis including
irrationality and transcendence * Number theory * Fourier
analysis with applications to number theory * Connections
between Lie algebras and q-series.
UNQUOTE
http://springerlink.com/content/102986/?sortorder=asc
Raman made the original discovery of a new physical
phenomenon, which earned him the Nobel Prize in Physics in
1930, and led to many technological advancements since,
including Raman spectroscopy to identify the structure of
various chemicals. Here is his official Nobel Prize
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1930/raman-bio.html
S. N. Bose made one of the most astounding original
discoveries in Quantum Mechanics, which led to the birth of
a new field in Physics called Bose-Einstein Statistics. This
has led to the award of, not one, but several Nobel Prizes
in Physics, the most recent one being in 2001 for the
experimental confirmation of Bose-Einstein condensate, a
completely new state of matter predicted by Bose's theory.
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2001/public.html
Mahalanobis was one of the world's great pioneers in
Multi-variate Statistics and statistical surveys. His
original discoveries are being used everyday in most
statistical studies and in econometrics today, as well as to
develop expert systems for data mining and for stock market
and financial predictions.
I say once again. It is not the poor illiterate Indians who
give India a bad name. The people who do so are supposedly
educated people like you who, instead of learning about the
real problems that India faces and trying to solve them,
spit on it out of ignorance and prejudice because of your
knee-jerk fawning tendency towards everything that is
foreign.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Sun, 7/4/10, Nascy Caldeira <nascycal at yahoo.com.au>
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
? I asked U about the stalwarts,that U mention and
U are
Post by Nascy Caldeira
saying that I said they are philosophers. Are they
philosophers is what I meant asking you, OK?
I acknowledge and so does the world that India has
produced
Post by Nascy Caldeira
many a mathemathical genius and many a science genious
too;
Post by Nascy Caldeira
but what great 'original' discoveries or 'original'
inventions have come from these great persons who are
talking about?
I do not know. Have they? then U may please enumerate
for
Post by Nascy Caldeira
our knowledge. Simple as that.
I have said to you before that Indian total Culture
is
Post by Nascy Caldeira
good; but there are many Bad and Ugly parts,and Bad
concepts
Post by Nascy Caldeira
in Indian Culture that are giving all Indians a bad
name.
Post by Nascy Caldeira
This is my primary 'resentment' And the educated
Hindu
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Indians are doing nothing about it! Because of these
shameful practices all Indians get the bad name;
outsiders
Post by Nascy Caldeira
will not and do not pick and choose which Indian is
good;
Post by Nascy Caldeira
They simply lump all of us togather as Bad and Ugly.
You know and must analyse the fact that: "The Strenght
of a
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Chain is its Weakest Link"". There are too many weak
links
Post by Nascy Caldeira
with the stupid bad and ugly, in Indian Culture,
starting
Post by Nascy Caldeira
with so called Hindu religion, and other fields of
human
Post by Nascy Caldeira
endeavour. Last week, I was invited by a white
Australian
Post by Nascy Caldeira
family (where the head of family is an Uni Professor
with a
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Doctorate. He asked me if I would be content with a
good
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Lamb Dish that they had in mind to serve at table. I
had to
Post by Nascy Caldeira
correct them; that I am not the Indian who eats only
Lamb
Post by Nascy Caldeira
but prefers Beef and Pork and Chicken,in that order
with
Post by Nascy Caldeira
lots of veges too. Most people here think that Indians
only
Post by Nascy Caldeira
eat bloody lamb; in fact it is being advertised as
such to
Post by Nascy Caldeira
sell; as the sale of lamb by choice is lower than
Beef.
Post by Nascy Caldeira
'multi cultural food' my foot. Indians are mono
cultural,
Post by Nascy Caldeira
never multi cultural by and large. This is but one
example
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that tells how all Indians are bracketed because of
stupid
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Indian culture and beliefs.
Insated of correcting these, most Indians are trying
to
Post by Nascy Caldeira
praise their Tail that is nothing but Stink. I say.
That is
Post by Nascy Caldeira
why I am shouting from the House Top. I am also Indian
and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that is the reason I feel so badly about India in
general,
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that does not allow me to really hold my head high
when I
Post by Nascy Caldeira
walk and live in foreign lands.
Santosh I am telling U once again; by itself
everything is
Post by Nascy Caldeira
good; but when 'compared' to the worlds cultures,
Indian
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Culture stinks and needs to be reformatted and NOW.
Nascy Caldeira.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-01 11:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in response to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented in India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the civilisation between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they also used it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa civilisation may have followed uo on that!

More importantly Indians of old remained at Zero! Even today India is stuck with counting in Lacs and crores; while the rest of the world has moved on to Millions, billions trillions and zillions. The ancient culture has remained ancient! The modern computing systems are based on the Binary system of counting, and boolean algebra; why? because the computer machine is based on just two states (On or OFF) of the transisitor switch, the flip flop etc. hence the British system of binary count came in handy. The decimal equivalent fed into computers are converted into binary code thru countless algorihtms, and the resultant reconverted into decimal code. There is no other way!

Decimal system is very good indeed; the world cannot do without it, but computers do not need it.

Nothing else that is good for humanity or the world at large has come from the ancient Indian culture.

Oh yes; India gave the world: Kama Sutra and Yoga!
One smart Indian saw that peole are enjoying thenselves having good sex and enjoying themselves when India was like paradise! So he wrote, compiled a book showing all the positions and rigours etc. Produce more babies,so that the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas will have more servants and lowly people available for slavery into menial work. What a wonderful brahmin concept. Should the world be grateful for that? Of course not.

Then came another smart Indian; who saw that people were having all sorts of physical and mental problems with too much sex and positions demonstrated in the Kams Sutra! etc. He advised Yoga so that people can control their emotions, their activities and above all their mind too. This Indian I like. This is something good for the world; not that it is not manifest in other cultures in different ways. Give him the credit.

Nothing else that is good comes to mind that India may have discovered or invented original.
Even The simple MOP has yet to arrive in India. Servants are yet made to go down on their knees to swap the floor for the badda sahibs!! Yak!

"Ancient Culture Indeed" But is it Good?? I do not think so. The world is laughing. LOL!!!!

Nascy Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
From: Jim Fernandes <amigo007 at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
Post by Jim Fernandes
I don't give much importance to the
invention of "zero" by an ancient Indian to arithmetic. If
the decimal numbering system was the only system humans
used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.
The entire field of electronics and computer science uses
binary, octal or hexa-decimal numbering systems. Therefore,
I feel the "zero" would have been discovered by humans one
way or another anyway.
The concept of "zero" is an ancient discovery. What else
has been discovered or invented by Indians in modern India?
Almost every Indian nobel winner in science I can think of,
became successful, only after they migrated out of the
country.
Jim F
New York
On Jun 29, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Post by Jim Fernandes
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic
nonsense on one fringe with something even worse from the
opposite fringe.
...
...
...
Post by Jim Fernandes
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to
mathematics was one of the most significant inventions of
humankind. It was as transformative as the` invention of
calculus.
Post by Jim Fernandes
Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-02 05:50:51 UTC
Permalink
One of the misfortunes of India is Indians like Nascy who have never had any attachment to their motherland or their fellow countrymen, let alone any sense of pride, responsibility or duty towards them. In my opinion, along with corruption and other ills, the disgraceful attitude displayed, time and again, by these ungrateful folk is another major impediment to India's progress. What is worse is that they have cultivated this disposition, not out of any real knowledge or insight, but out of pure ignorance about India's history and its contribution to world culture, art, sculpture, music, philosophy, etc, as is clear from Nascy's boorish post appended below.

The post below and the earlier one by Jim makes it clear that their Indian authors have never heard of 20th century stalwarts such as Srinivasa Ramanujan, Chandrasekhar Venkat Raman, Satyendra Nath Bose or Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis. They have absolutely no idea what kinds of contributions are being made as we speak by institutions like the Indian Statistical Institute in Kolkata or the numerous outfits in India's own silicon valley.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in response
to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented in
India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the civilisation
between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are
claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they also used
it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa civilisation
may have followed uo on that!
Marshall Mendonza
2010-07-03 05:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Radharao Gracias:
Will the RSS at least now prove its patriotism and provides its cadres for
recruitment into the army? It is time that the Sangh Parivar cadres display
their patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where the threat lies.

Response:
I am reminded of an incident narrated by J F Ribeiro during the course of a
debate on 'Big Fight'. When Mr Ribeiro was the Police Commissioner of
Bombay, the Shiv Sena used to regularly go on a rampage every now and then.
They would be arrested and then released under political pressure. This went
on for sometime. One day they crossed the limits and Mr Ribeiro decided to
handle the situation unconventionally. Winking at his deputies, Mr Ribeiro
said to them in a loud tone,( within earshot of the arrested shiv sainiks)
to get the arrested shiv sainiks enrolled immediately into the army, and
have them sent to the Indo-Pak border so that they could show their bravado
which was being displayed on the streets of Bombay. In next to no time, the
shiv sainiks fell at his feet and whimpering promised to keep out of
trouble. After that incident, Mr Ribeiro never faced any trouble from the
SS.

Similarly, the sangh parivar cadres could be recruited into the army and a
separate regiment created for them. They could then be deployed in J&K on
the Indo-Pak border. They could also be sent to Afganistan to take care of
the Taliban or to Iraq to help the beleaguered US forces. They could even be
outsourced to the UN to be deployed in troublespots like Somalia, Nigeria,
Croatia.

Regards,

Marshall
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-03 09:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Santosh,
U mention great stalwarts, but U do not say what if anything 'original' they discovered or invented. Philosophers are found in thousands all over the world, and they are unproductive.

Secondly U say that me and Jim type are divorced from Indian reality, India and ungrateful; for what? the shen and cow's urine?
That is how India brings shame to all Indians in India and abroad.

I am enlightened compared to the majority of Indians. That is the reason I may be able to see more clearly the total picture from above (culturally above). I can therefor analyse the status in India better than those who appreciate their own shit in conservative blindness!

Open your eyes and LOOK rather than just SEE; and U will realise how unproductive and uncouth the India I love and that I am born in, is.
U do agree that it is foreigners, the world at large that must appreciate India not the saffron and non saffron type of ignorant Indians who are looking at their own tail; they are not looking beyond. How sad?

I hope all Indians grow up to take a good look at themselves compared to the world outside and not within only. Good and or Bad has meaning only when compared; else everything is either good or bad, on individual perception. This is exactly your mistake, Santosh

Nascy Caldeira
Post by Santosh Helekar
One of the misfortunes of India is
Indians like Nascy who have never had any attachment to
their motherland or their fellow countrymen, let alone any
sense of pride, responsibility or duty towards them. In my
opinion, along with corruption and other ills, the
disgraceful attitude displayed, time and again, by these
ungrateful folk is another major impediment to India's
progress.
The post below and the earlier one by Jim makes it clear
that their Indian authors have never heard of 20th century
stalwarts such as Srinivasa Ramanujan, Chandrasekhar Venkat
Raman, Satyendra Nath Bose or Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis.
They have absolutely no idea what kinds of contributions are
being made as we speak by institutions like the Indian
Statistical Institute in Kolkata or the numerous outfits in
India's own silicon valley.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Nascy Caldeira <nascycal at yahoo.com.au>
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in
response
Post by Nascy Caldeira
to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented
in
Post by Nascy Caldeira
India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the
civilisation
Post by Nascy Caldeira
between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are
claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they
also used
Post by Nascy Caldeira
it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa
civilisation
Post by Nascy Caldeira
may have followed uo on that!
? ? ?
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-03 13:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Nascy,

Here is why it is you, in addition to the corrupt politicians and some irresponsible Indians, who bring shame to India.

1. You are completely clueless about the great stalwarts of 20th century India, who were mathematical and scientific geniuses, and whose work contributed to the technological advances of today. You call them philosphers. How shameful!

2. You do not know what being civilized is, and how well regarded Indian civilization is among scholars and educated people of the rest of the world.

3. One example of how uncivilized your behavior is, is the fact that you tar all Indians with the same broad brush because of the beliefs and activities of some that you dislike.

4. You are unable to recognize what is good, bad and inconsequential about culture in general. You have never been able to point out a single good thing about India and Indians, despite having been asked to do so, repeatedly. You claim about love for India rings hollow.

Shame on you!

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
U mention great stalwarts, but U do not say what if
anything 'original' they discovered or invented.
Philosophers are found in thousands all over the world, and
they are unproductive.
Secondly U say that me and Jim type are divorced from
Indian reality, India and ungrateful; for what? the shen and
cow's urine?
That is how India brings shame to all Indians in India and
abroad.
I am enlightened compared to the majority of Indians. That
is the reason I may be able to see more clearly the total
picture from above (culturally above). I can therefor
analyse the status in India better than those who appreciate
their own shit in conservative blindness!
Open your eyes and LOOK rather than just SEE; and U will
realise how unproductive and uncouth the India I love and
that I am born in, is.
U do agree that it is foreigners, the world at large that
must appreciate India not the saffron and non saffron type
of ignorant Indians who are looking at their own tail; they
are not looking beyond. How sad?
I hope all Indians grow up to take a good look at
themselves compared to the world outside and not within
only. Good and or Bad has meaning only when compared; else
everything is either good or bad, on individual perception.
This is exactly your mistake, Santosh
Nascy Caldeira
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-03 17:03:55 UTC
Permalink
As I have said before, criticism has to be legitimate and substantive. It has to result from a genuine appraisal of facts. Criticism borne out of ignorance, prejudice or political bias is worthless. It misdirects our efforts at finding remedies, and contributes to the perpetuation of ignorance and alienation. For example, contrary to what it is stated below, and in the past, frequently by Admin Noronha and others, there is no such thing as Indian science or an Eastern science and a western science. Science is universal. Modern and ancient Indians working in India have contributed to it. Nobody can deny this fact.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick Noronha
The contribution of traditional societies to "modern"
knowledge
remains understudied and not adequately acknowledged.?
Just? came
across a journal which proposes to do this, Vigyan Bharati
Pradeepika
"dedicated to identify and rediscover the original Indian
science and
technology in a modern context". (rof Sureshwar Sharma,
Udayachal,
1881, Gupteshwar, Jabalpur 482001 MP).
Quite some time ago, I attended (as a correspondent) a
couple of
"traditional science congresses". These were held at the
IIT-Bombay
and, if I recall right, the Anna University in Chennai.
While there
was an element of mumbo-jumbo and unsubstantiated claims
being made,
there were many amazing facts coming to light there too.
Nonetheless, whatever the achievements of the remote and
recent past,
I feel we should always retain a critical element, and be
willing to
accept criticism or counterviews. If it's true, then we
need to face
up to it; if not, we can ignore it. At the very least, a
challenge to
one's position is a kind of reality check. FN
Jim Fernandes
2010-07-03 17:32:59 UTC
Permalink
I do not totally discount what Santosh says. But we need to put our thoughts into current context and perspectives.

He listed four Indian individuals below who he considers as having made radical discoveries or inventions. These individuals may be considered great heroes in India, but what he fails to admit is the fact that, out of a billion plus population in India, we Indians do not contribute proportionally to global advances and discoveries.

By the way, out of these four individuals, I have only heard of two - C V Raman, for the Raman Effect and S N Bose - a famous physicist in whose honor, the sub-atomic particles Bosons are named.

I wouldn't shy away from criticizing India and its government where it is due. To me, India is not only a weak country, but it also ain't got the balls to fight for what it is rightfully due.

Take for instance, the current case of oil spill by BP in the Gulf of Mexico. The Obama administration went after the British company and made sure that BP is going to put up 20 billion dollars in an escrow account to pay for the cleanup and other expenses.

In contrast, what did India do, when the toxic gas spill ocurred in Bhopal that killed some 3000 people? They managed to get peanuts from the American owned company and the perpertrators have been given a pat on the wrist! If a disaster of this magnitude had to happen in the United States, the US government would have shaken Heaven and Earth to make its people whole.

Indians in general, are not true innovators; but we are very good at copying what others do. Take for example, all the hottest TV shows running in India. They are mostly copy-cats of the Western shows. Even the movie industry in India, copied its name from 'Hollywood' and changed it to 'Bollywood'!

India hardly produces any talent in sports either - the evidence of which is clearly displayed during the Olympics. If all the "football" playing countries had to play cricket, India would be lucky to appear in the bottom fifty!

Even though India produces hundreds of thousands highly technical people each year, how many high technology gadgets do you see, come out of India? Ofcourse, its not all the fault of poor Indian people - but its the government policy that discourages innovation. It is also the fault of Indian corporations that spend very little on research and development. In contrast, Western governments and their companies, spend billions on research and development.

Every smart nation knows the next biggest game changing technologies are going to be in the field of 'clean energy' and genetic science. How much money, do you think India is investing to target the next biggest discoveries in these fields?

In India, if a billionaire has money, he spends it on building a billion dollar house. In the US, the billionaires are giving away their wealth to charities - and the money is mostly spent on the poor who reside outside the US.

We seem to love to bask in past glory and India's rich history. Indians were just a bunch of poor peasants ruled by princely kings. Hello? India was not even a formal country until some sixty years ago. If it hadn't been for the Brits, modern India, as we know it today, would not be there as a single nation.

I speak and understand very little Hindi, but I know what the phrase 'Saare Jahan Se Accha' means. Sadly, India is not it - which is why, I had to move out of there.

Even then, for all its faults, we still love Goa and India - because we all have our roots there.

Jim F
New York.
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
To: " estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 1:50 AM
One of the misfortunes of India is
Indians like Nascy who have never had any attachment to
their motherland or their fellow countrymen, let alone any
sense of pride, responsibility or duty towards them. In my
opinion, along with corruption and other ills, the
disgraceful attitude displayed, time and again, by these
ungrateful folk is another major impediment to India's
...
...
The post below and the earlier one by Jim makes it clear
that their Indian authors have never heard of 20th century
stalwarts such as Srinivasa Ramanujan, Chandrasekhar Venkat
Raman, Satyendra Nath Bose or Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis.
...
...
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-03 21:28:21 UTC
Permalink
Good to know that, unlike Nascy, Jim has heard of two Indian scientists mentioned by me. But from the earlier claim of zero contributions by Indians we now have the goal post being moved to lack of proportional contribution. Is this supposed to be contribution per capita or contribution per capita income? How much have Australia, South Africa, the Gulf states and most European countries contributed per capita income towards innovation and scientific advancement in the world? Indeed, more than 90% of the technological advancements have come from the United States.

Nevertheless, unlike Nascy, Jim appears to have some genuine concerns, and makes genuine points with respect to government and private sector apathy in India when it comes to research and development. The lack of philanthropy on these fronts is also a huge problem. On these points, I agree with him completely.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Jim Fernandes
I do not totally discount what
Santosh says. But we need to put our thoughts into current
context and perspectives.
He listed four Indian individuals below who he considers as
having made radical discoveries or inventions. These
individuals may be considered great heroes in India, but
what he fails to admit is the fact that, out of a billion
plus population in India, we Indians do not contribute
proportionally to global advances and discoveries.
By the way, out of these four individuals, I have only
heard of two - C V Raman, for the Raman Effect and S N Bose
- a famous physicist in whose honor, the sub-atomic
particles Bosons are named.
I wouldn't shy away from criticizing India and its
government where it is due. To me, India is not only a weak
country, but it also ain't got the balls to fight for what
it is rightfully due.
Take for instance, the current case of oil spill by BP in
the Gulf of Mexico. The Obama administration went after the
British company and made sure that BP is going to put up 20
billion dollars in an escrow account to pay for the cleanup
and other expenses.
In contrast, what did India do, when the toxic gas spill
ocurred in Bhopal that killed some 3000 people? They managed
to get peanuts from the American owned company and the
perpertrators have been given a pat on the wrist! If a
disaster of this magnitude had to happen in the United
States, the US government would have shaken Heaven and Earth
to make its people whole.
Indians in general, are not true innovators; but we are
very good at copying what others do. Take for example, all
the hottest TV shows running in India. They are mostly
copy-cats of the Western shows. Even the movie industry in
India, copied its name from 'Hollywood' and changed it to
'Bollywood'!
India hardly produces any talent in sports either - the
evidence of which is clearly displayed during the Olympics.
If all the "football" playing countries had to play cricket,
India would be lucky to appear in the bottom fifty!
Even though India produces hundreds of thousands highly
technical people each year, how many high technology gadgets
do you see, come out of India? Ofcourse, its not all the
fault of poor Indian people - but its the government policy
that discourages innovation. It is also the fault of Indian
corporations that spend very little on research and
development. In contrast, Western governments and their
companies, spend billions on research and development.
Every smart nation knows the next biggest game changing
technologies are going to be in the field of 'clean energy'
and genetic science. How much money, do you think India is
investing to target the next biggest discoveries in these
fields?
In India, if a billionaire has money, he spends it on
building a billion dollar house. In the US, the billionaires
are giving away their wealth to charities - and the money is
mostly spent on the poor who reside outside the US.
We seem to love to bask in past glory and India's rich
history. Indians were just a bunch of poor peasants ruled by
princely kings. Hello? India was not even a formal country
until some sixty years ago. If it hadn't been for the Brits,
modern India, as we know it today, would not be there as a
single nation.
I speak and understand very little Hindi, but I know what
the phrase 'Saare Jahan Se Accha' means. Sadly, India is not
it - which is why, I had to move out of there.
Even then, for all its faults, we still love Goa and India
- because we all have our roots there.
Jim F
New York.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-04 13:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Santosh,
U are definitely on the back foot here! U are deliberately distorting what JIm has said. I too will support all that Jim has written, and I kow about these two great persons he mentions. But my point is made that there was nothing 'original' in their doscoveries and or inventions, only supplementory stuff! OK?

Nascy Caldeira
Post by Santosh Helekar
Good to know that, unlike Nascy, Jim
has heard of two Indian scientists mentioned by me. But from
the earlier claim of zero contributions by Indians we now
have the goal post being moved to lack of proportional
contribution. Is this supposed to be contribution per capita
or contribution per capita income? How much have Australia,
South Africa, the Gulf states and most European countries
contributed per capita income towards innovation and
scientific advancement in the world? Indeed, more than 90%
of the technological advancements have come from the United
States.
Nevertheless, unlike Nascy, Jim appears to have some
genuine concerns, and makes genuine points with respect to
government and private sector apathy in India when it comes
to research and development. The lack of philanthropy on
these fronts is also a huge problem. On these points, I
agree with him completely.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Sat, 7/3/10, Jim Fernandes <amigo007 at att.net>
Post by Jim Fernandes
I do not totally discount what
Santosh says. But we need to put our thoughts into
current
Post by Jim Fernandes
context and perspectives.
He listed four Indian individuals below who he
considers as
Post by Jim Fernandes
having made radical discoveries or inventions. These
individuals may be considered great heroes in India,
but
Post by Jim Fernandes
what he fails to admit is the fact that, out of a
billion
Post by Jim Fernandes
plus population in India, we Indians do not
contribute
Post by Jim Fernandes
proportionally to global advances and discoveries.
By the way, out of these four individuals, I have
only
Post by Jim Fernandes
heard of two - C V Raman, for the Raman Effect and S N
Bose
Post by Jim Fernandes
- a famous physicist in whose honor, the sub-atomic
particles Bosons are named.
I wouldn't shy away from criticizing India and its
government where it is due. To me, India is not only a
weak
Post by Jim Fernandes
country, but it also ain't got the balls to fight for
what
Post by Jim Fernandes
it is rightfully due.
Take for instance, the current case of oil spill by BP
in
Post by Jim Fernandes
the Gulf of Mexico. The Obama administration went
after the
Post by Jim Fernandes
British company and made sure that BP is going to put
up 20
Post by Jim Fernandes
billion dollars in an escrow account to pay for the
cleanup
Post by Jim Fernandes
and other expenses.
In contrast, what did India do, when the toxic gas
spill
Post by Jim Fernandes
ocurred in Bhopal that killed some 3000 people? They
managed
Post by Jim Fernandes
to get peanuts from the American owned company and
the
Post by Jim Fernandes
perpertrators have been given a pat on the wrist! If
a
Post by Jim Fernandes
disaster of this magnitude had to happen in the
United
Post by Jim Fernandes
States, the US government would have shaken Heaven and
Earth
Post by Jim Fernandes
to make its people whole.
Indians in general, are not true innovators; but we
are
Post by Jim Fernandes
very good at copying what others do. Take for example,
all
Post by Jim Fernandes
the hottest TV shows running in India. They are
mostly
Post by Jim Fernandes
copy-cats of the Western shows. Even the movie
industry in
Post by Jim Fernandes
India, copied its name from 'Hollywood' and changed it
to
Post by Jim Fernandes
'Bollywood'!
India hardly produces any talent in sports either -
the
Post by Jim Fernandes
evidence of which is clearly displayed during the
Olympics.
Post by Jim Fernandes
If all the "football" playing countries had to play
cricket,
Post by Jim Fernandes
India would be lucky to appear in the bottom fifty!
Even though India produces hundreds of thousands
highly
Post by Jim Fernandes
technical people each year, how many high technology
gadgets
Post by Jim Fernandes
do you see, come out of India? Ofcourse, its not all
the
Post by Jim Fernandes
fault of poor Indian people - but its the government
policy
Post by Jim Fernandes
that discourages innovation. It is also the fault of
Indian
Post by Jim Fernandes
corporations that spend very little on research and
development. In contrast, Western governments and
their
Post by Jim Fernandes
companies, spend billions on research and
development.
Post by Jim Fernandes
Every smart nation knows the next biggest game
changing
Post by Jim Fernandes
technologies are going to be in the field of 'clean
energy'
Post by Jim Fernandes
and genetic science. How much money, do you think
India is
Post by Jim Fernandes
investing to target the next biggest discoveries in
these
Post by Jim Fernandes
fields?
In India, if a billionaire has money, he spends it on
building a billion dollar house. In the US, the
billionaires
Post by Jim Fernandes
are giving away their wealth to charities - and the
money is
Post by Jim Fernandes
mostly spent on the poor who reside outside the US.
We seem to love to bask in past glory and India's
rich
Post by Jim Fernandes
history. Indians were just a bunch of poor peasants
ruled by
Post by Jim Fernandes
princely kings. Hello? India was not even a formal
country
Post by Jim Fernandes
until some sixty years ago. If it hadn't been for the
Brits,
Post by Jim Fernandes
modern India, as we know it today, would not be there
as a
Post by Jim Fernandes
single nation.
I speak and understand very little Hindi, but I know
what
Post by Jim Fernandes
the phrase 'Saare Jahan Se Accha' means. Sadly, India
is not
Post by Jim Fernandes
it - which is why, I had to move out of there.
Even then, for all its faults, we still love Goa and
India
Post by Jim Fernandes
- because we all have our roots there.
Jim F
New York.
? ? ?
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-04 13:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Santosh,
I asked U about the stalwarts,that U mention and U are saying that I said they are philosophers. Are they philosophers is what I meant asking you, OK?

I acknowledge and so does the world that India has produced many a mathemathical genius and many a science genious too; but what great 'original' discoveries or 'original' inventions have come from these great persons who are talking about?

I do not know. Have they? then U may please enumerate for our knowledge. Simple as that.

I have said to you before that Indian total Culture is good; but there are many Bad and Ugly parts,and Bad concepts in Indian Culture that are giving all Indians a bad name. This is my primary 'resentment' And the educated Hindu Indians are doing nothing about it! Because of these shameful practices all Indians get the bad name; outsiders will not and do not pick and choose which Indian is good; They simply lump all of us togather as Bad and Ugly.

You know and must analyse the fact that: "The Strenght of a Chain is its Weakest Link"". There are too many weak links with the stupid bad and ugly, in Indian Culture, starting with so called Hindu religion, and other fields of human endeavour. Last week, I was invited by a white Australian family (where the head of family is an Uni Professor with a Doctorate. He asked me if I would be content with a good Lamb Dish that they had in mind to serve at table. I had to correct them; that I am not the Indian who eats only Lamb but prefers Beef and Pork and Chicken,in that order with lots of veges too. Most people here think that Indians only eat bloody lamb; in fact it is being advertised as such to sell; as the sale of lamb by choice is lower than Beef. 'multi cultural food' my foot. Indians are mono cultural, never multi cultural by and large. This is but one example that tells how all Indians are bracketed because of stupid Indian culture and beliefs.

Insated of correcting these, most Indians are trying to praise their Tail that is nothing but Stink. I say. That is why I am shouting from the House Top. I am also Indian and that is the reason I feel so badly about India in general, that does not allow me to really hold my head high when I walk and live in foreign lands.

Santosh I am telling U once again; by itself everything is good; but when 'compared' to the worlds cultures, Indian Culture stinks and needs to be reformatted and NOW.

Nascy Caldeira.
Post by Santosh Helekar
Nascy,
Here is why it is you, in addition to the corrupt
politicians and some irresponsible Indians, who bring shame
to India.
{Nascy: It is not me who worships animals and other weird deities and glorifies cow's urine and not Milk, and imposes these stupidities on all others!!! Hah Hah Ha!} I am thus HURT!
Post by Santosh Helekar
1. You are completely clueless about the great stalwarts of
20th century India, who were mathematical and scientific
geniuses, and whose work contributed to the technological
advances of today. You call them philosphers. How shameful!
2. You do not know what being civilized is, and how well
regarded Indian civilization is among scholars and educated
people of the rest of the world.
3. One example of how uncivilized your behavior is, is the
fact that you tar all Indians with the same broad brush
because of the beliefs and activities of some that you
dislike.
4. You are unable to recognize what is good, bad and
inconsequential about culture in general. You have never
been able to point out a single good thing about India and
Indians, despite having been asked to do so, repeatedly. You
claim about love for India rings hollow.
Shame on you!
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Sat, 7/3/10, Nascy Caldeira <nascycal at yahoo.com.au>
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
U mention great stalwarts, but U do not say what if
anything 'original' they discovered or invented.
Philosophers are found in thousands all over the
world, and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
they are unproductive.
Secondly U say that me and Jim type are divorced from
Indian reality, India and ungrateful; for what? the
shen and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
cow's urine?
That is how India brings shame to all Indians in India
and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
abroad.
I am enlightened compared to the majority of Indians.
That
Post by Nascy Caldeira
is the reason I may be able to see more clearly the
total
Post by Nascy Caldeira
picture from above (culturally above). I can therefor
analyse the status in India better than those who
appreciate
Post by Nascy Caldeira
their own shit in conservative blindness!
Open your eyes and LOOK rather than just SEE; and U
will
Post by Nascy Caldeira
realise how unproductive and uncouth the India I love
and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that I am born in, is.
U do agree that it is foreigners, the world at large
that
Post by Nascy Caldeira
must appreciate India not the saffron and non saffron
type
Post by Nascy Caldeira
of ignorant Indians who are looking at their own tail;
they
Post by Nascy Caldeira
are not looking beyond. How sad?
? I hope all Indians grow up to take a good look
at
Post by Nascy Caldeira
themselves compared to the world outside and not
within
Post by Nascy Caldeira
only. Good and or Bad has meaning only when compared;
else
Post by Nascy Caldeira
everything is either good or bad, on individual
perception.
Post by Nascy Caldeira
This is exactly your mistake, Santosh
Nascy Caldeira
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-04 18:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Nascy,

What you have written below and in an accompanying post is utter rubbish. You are fixated on what people eat, and how they dress. If they eat and dress like you, you call them civilized. Talk about mono-cultural, this is mono-maniacal stupidity. I am quite certain that the Australian professor who invited you for dinner would be laughing at you. He would certainly not have the prejudice against Indian culture that you as an Indian have based on idiotic notions such as eating beef and pork being better than eating lamb and chicken. I say it again. It is people like you who have migrated to Australia and elsewhere with your ignorance about your own motherland that are bringing shame to India. This incident with the professor illustrates it quite nicely.

Your bogus charge about lack of originality, which you make despite being totally ignorant about the discoveries of Ramanujan, Raman, Bose and Mahalanobis, is also a classic illustration of your bigotry against your own people. Anybody else would have been embarrassed by the nonsense you have written, not knowing that these Indians were some of the world's greatest mathematicians and scientists.

Ramanujan has been regarded by the rest of the world as one of the pre-eminent mathematical geniuses of all time. His original discoveries have led to the birth of severe new disciplines of mathematical research. An entire scholarly journal called "The Ramanujan Journal" is being published bimonthly since 1997 to report on original research stemming from his discoveries. Here is a description of that journal and a link to it:

QUOTE
The remarkable discoveries made by Srinivasa Ramanujan have made a great impact on several branches of mathematics, revealing deep and fundamental connections. This journal publishes papers of the highest quality in all areas of mathematics influenced by Ramanujan, including:

Hyper-geometric and basic hyper-geometric series (q-series) * Partitions, compositions and combinatory analysis * Circle method and asymptotic formulae * Mock theta functions * Elliptic and theta functions * Modular forms and automorphic functions * Special functions and definite integrals * Continued fractions * Diophantine analysis including irrationality and transcendence * Number theory * Fourier analysis with applications to number theory * Connections between Lie algebras and q-series.
UNQUOTE

http://springerlink.com/content/102986/?sortorder=asc

Raman made the original discovery of a new physical phenomenon, which earned him the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1930, and led to many technological advancements since, including Raman spectroscopy to identify the structure of various chemicals. Here is his official Nobel Prize webpage:

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1930/raman-bio.html

S. N. Bose made one of the most astounding original discoveries in Quantum Mechanics, which led to the birth of a new field in Physics called Bose-Einstein Statistics. This has led to the award of, not one, but several Nobel Prizes in Physics, the most recent one being in 2001 for the experimental confirmation of Bose-Einstein condensate, a completely new state of matter predicted by Bose's theory. Here is the Nobel Prize website for that discovery:

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2001/public.html

Mahalanobis was one of the world's great pioneers in Multi-variate Statistics and statistical surveys. His original discoveries are being used everyday in most statistical studies and in econometrics today, as well as to develop expert systems for data mining and for stock market and financial predictions.

I say once again. It is not the poor illiterate Indians who give India a bad name. The people who do so are supposedly educated people like you who, instead of learning about the real problems that India faces and trying to solve them, spit on it out of ignorance and prejudice because of your knee-jerk fawning tendency towards everything that is foreign.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
I asked U about the stalwarts,that U mention and U are
saying that I said they are philosophers. Are they
philosophers is what I meant asking you, OK?
I acknowledge and so does the world that India has produced
many a mathemathical genius and many a science genious too;
but what great 'original' discoveries or 'original'
inventions have come from these great persons who are
talking about?
I do not know. Have they? then U may please enumerate for
our knowledge. Simple as that.
I have said to you before that Indian total Culture is
good; but there are many Bad and Ugly parts,and Bad concepts
in Indian Culture that are giving all Indians a bad name.
This is my primary 'resentment' And the educated Hindu
Indians are doing nothing about it! Because of these
shameful practices all Indians get the bad name; outsiders
will not and do not pick and choose which Indian is good;
They simply lump all of us togather as Bad and Ugly.
You know and must analyse the fact that: "The Strenght of a
Chain is its Weakest Link"". There are too many weak links
with the stupid bad and ugly, in Indian Culture, starting
with so called Hindu religion, and other fields of human
endeavour. Last week, I was invited by a white Australian
family (where the head of family is an Uni Professor with a
Doctorate. He asked me if I would be content with a good
Lamb Dish that they had in mind to serve at table. I had to
correct them; that I am not the Indian who eats only Lamb
but prefers Beef and Pork and Chicken,in that order with
lots of veges too. Most people here think that Indians only
eat bloody lamb; in fact it is being advertised as such to
sell; as the sale of lamb by choice is lower than Beef.
'multi cultural food' my foot. Indians are mono cultural,
never multi cultural by and large. This is but one example
that tells how all Indians are bracketed because of stupid
Indian culture and beliefs.
Insated of correcting these, most Indians are trying to
praise their Tail that is nothing but Stink. I say. That is
why I am shouting from the House Top. I am also Indian and
that is the reason I feel so badly about India in general,
that does not allow me to really hold my head high when I
walk and live in foreign lands.
Santosh I am telling U once again; by itself everything is
good; but when 'compared' to the worlds cultures, Indian
Culture stinks and needs to be reformatted and NOW.
Nascy Caldeira.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-06 09:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Santosh!
How righteous you are! That is the reason why all Indians go abroad to UK and USA to advance their studies and research. And most of all, nobody comes to India for any higher studies, except to see the Khajurao temples?

I do know and accept re Raman etc; U should note that these persons achieved during the Raj, nothing before or after from Indian soil.

The incident I mentioned re the professor who invited me is to show you how all Indians are "stereotyped" irrespective, like the unenlightened Indians taht most are; since that is what, they the foreigners see and know thru the media. That is my complaint; not that lamb is bad or worse than other food.

I do hope more and more Indians will be able to achieve in all fields of human endeavour, in future. We, since I am also Indian, have failed this world very badly indeed. What I would like to say is this: that the west namely the Europeans have achieved, discovered and invented all this time, for centuries, hardly anything from India and or Asia. Even the Japanese have nothing of their own; but their business men are what pushed them to go abroad, learn and achieve, and they triumphed albeit with foreign knowledge. Indians are just starting to do that, and achieving; but the credit for most discoveries and inventions go to the Europeans, old and new.
I do hope Indians will give credit where due; instead of wagging their tail where not due, and deriding the west.

Cheers!
Nascy Caldeira
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
To: " estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Received: Monday, 5 July, 2010, 4:53 AM
Nascy,
What you have written below and in an accompanying post is
utter rubbish. You are fixated on what people eat, and how
they dress. If they eat and dress like you, you call them
civilized. Talk about mono-cultural, this is mono-maniacal
stupidity. I am quite certain that the Australian professor
who invited you for dinner would be laughing at you. He
would certainly not have the prejudice against Indian
culture that you as an Indian have based on idiotic notions
such as eating beef and pork being better than eating lamb
and chicken. I say it again. It is people like you who have
migrated to Australia and elsewhere with your ignorance
about your own motherland that are bringing shame to India.
This incident with the professor illustrates it quite
nicely.
Your bogus charge about lack of originality, which you make
despite being totally ignorant about the discoveries of
Ramanujan, Raman, Bose and Mahalanobis, is also a classic
illustration of your bigotry against your own people.?
Anybody else would have been embarrassed by the nonsense you
have written, not knowing that these Indians were some of
the world's greatest mathematicians and scientists.
Ramanujan has been regarded by the rest of the world as one
of the pre-eminent mathematical geniuses of all time. His
original discoveries have led to the birth of severe new
disciplines of mathematical research. An entire scholarly
journal called "The Ramanujan Journal" is being published
bimonthly since 1997 to report on original research stemming
from his discoveries. Here is a description of that journal
QUOTE
The remarkable discoveries made by Srinivasa Ramanujan have
made a great impact on several branches of mathematics,
revealing deep and fundamental connections. This journal
publishes papers of the highest quality in all areas of
Hyper-geometric and basic hyper-geometric series (q-series)
* Partitions, compositions and combinatory analysis * Circle
method and asymptotic formulae * Mock theta functions *
Elliptic and theta functions * Modular forms and automorphic
functions * Special functions and definite integrals *
Continued fractions * Diophantine analysis including
irrationality and transcendence * Number theory * Fourier
analysis with applications to number theory * Connections
between Lie algebras and q-series.
UNQUOTE
http://springerlink.com/content/102986/?sortorder=asc
Raman made the original discovery of a new physical
phenomenon, which earned him the Nobel Prize in Physics in
1930, and led to many technological advancements since,
including Raman spectroscopy to identify the structure of
various chemicals. Here is his official Nobel Prize
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1930/raman-bio.html
S. N. Bose made one of the most astounding original
discoveries in Quantum Mechanics, which led to the birth of
a new field in Physics called Bose-Einstein Statistics. This
has led to the award of, not one, but several Nobel Prizes
in Physics, the most recent one being in 2001 for the
experimental confirmation of Bose-Einstein condensate, a
completely new state of matter predicted by Bose's theory.
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2001/public.html
Mahalanobis was one of the world's great pioneers in
Multi-variate Statistics and statistical surveys. His
original discoveries are being used everyday in most
statistical studies and in econometrics today, as well as to
develop expert systems for data mining and for stock market
and financial predictions.
I say once again. It is not the poor illiterate Indians who
give India a bad name. The people who do so are supposedly
educated people like you who, instead of learning about the
real problems that India faces and trying to solve them,
spit on it out of ignorance and prejudice because of your
knee-jerk fawning tendency towards everything that is
foreign.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Sun, 7/4/10, Nascy Caldeira <nascycal at yahoo.com.au>
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
? I asked U about the stalwarts,that U mention and
U are
Post by Nascy Caldeira
saying that I said they are philosophers. Are they
philosophers is what I meant asking you, OK?
I acknowledge and so does the world that India has
produced
Post by Nascy Caldeira
many a mathemathical genius and many a science genious
too;
Post by Nascy Caldeira
but what great 'original' discoveries or 'original'
inventions have come from these great persons who are
talking about?
I do not know. Have they? then U may please enumerate
for
Post by Nascy Caldeira
our knowledge. Simple as that.
I have said to you before that Indian total Culture
is
Post by Nascy Caldeira
good; but there are many Bad and Ugly parts,and Bad
concepts
Post by Nascy Caldeira
in Indian Culture that are giving all Indians a bad
name.
Post by Nascy Caldeira
This is my primary 'resentment' And the educated
Hindu
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Indians are doing nothing about it! Because of these
shameful practices all Indians get the bad name;
outsiders
Post by Nascy Caldeira
will not and do not pick and choose which Indian is
good;
Post by Nascy Caldeira
They simply lump all of us togather as Bad and Ugly.
You know and must analyse the fact that: "The Strenght
of a
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Chain is its Weakest Link"". There are too many weak
links
Post by Nascy Caldeira
with the stupid bad and ugly, in Indian Culture,
starting
Post by Nascy Caldeira
with so called Hindu religion, and other fields of
human
Post by Nascy Caldeira
endeavour. Last week, I was invited by a white
Australian
Post by Nascy Caldeira
family (where the head of family is an Uni Professor
with a
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Doctorate. He asked me if I would be content with a
good
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Lamb Dish that they had in mind to serve at table. I
had to
Post by Nascy Caldeira
correct them; that I am not the Indian who eats only
Lamb
Post by Nascy Caldeira
but prefers Beef and Pork and Chicken,in that order
with
Post by Nascy Caldeira
lots of veges too. Most people here think that Indians
only
Post by Nascy Caldeira
eat bloody lamb; in fact it is being advertised as
such to
Post by Nascy Caldeira
sell; as the sale of lamb by choice is lower than
Beef.
Post by Nascy Caldeira
'multi cultural food' my foot. Indians are mono
cultural,
Post by Nascy Caldeira
never multi cultural by and large. This is but one
example
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that tells how all Indians are bracketed because of
stupid
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Indian culture and beliefs.
Insated of correcting these, most Indians are trying
to
Post by Nascy Caldeira
praise their Tail that is nothing but Stink. I say.
That is
Post by Nascy Caldeira
why I am shouting from the House Top. I am also Indian
and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that is the reason I feel so badly about India in
general,
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that does not allow me to really hold my head high
when I
Post by Nascy Caldeira
walk and live in foreign lands.
Santosh I am telling U once again; by itself
everything is
Post by Nascy Caldeira
good; but when 'compared' to the worlds cultures,
Indian
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Culture stinks and needs to be reformatted and NOW.
Nascy Caldeira.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-01 11:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in response to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented in India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the civilisation between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they also used it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa civilisation may have followed uo on that!

More importantly Indians of old remained at Zero! Even today India is stuck with counting in Lacs and crores; while the rest of the world has moved on to Millions, billions trillions and zillions. The ancient culture has remained ancient! The modern computing systems are based on the Binary system of counting, and boolean algebra; why? because the computer machine is based on just two states (On or OFF) of the transisitor switch, the flip flop etc. hence the British system of binary count came in handy. The decimal equivalent fed into computers are converted into binary code thru countless algorihtms, and the resultant reconverted into decimal code. There is no other way!

Decimal system is very good indeed; the world cannot do without it, but computers do not need it.

Nothing else that is good for humanity or the world at large has come from the ancient Indian culture.

Oh yes; India gave the world: Kama Sutra and Yoga!
One smart Indian saw that peole are enjoying thenselves having good sex and enjoying themselves when India was like paradise! So he wrote, compiled a book showing all the positions and rigours etc. Produce more babies,so that the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas will have more servants and lowly people available for slavery into menial work. What a wonderful brahmin concept. Should the world be grateful for that? Of course not.

Then came another smart Indian; who saw that people were having all sorts of physical and mental problems with too much sex and positions demonstrated in the Kams Sutra! etc. He advised Yoga so that people can control their emotions, their activities and above all their mind too. This Indian I like. This is something good for the world; not that it is not manifest in other cultures in different ways. Give him the credit.

Nothing else that is good comes to mind that India may have discovered or invented original.
Even The simple MOP has yet to arrive in India. Servants are yet made to go down on their knees to swap the floor for the badda sahibs!! Yak!

"Ancient Culture Indeed" But is it Good?? I do not think so. The world is laughing. LOL!!!!

Nascy Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
From: Jim Fernandes <amigo007 at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
Post by Jim Fernandes
I don't give much importance to the
invention of "zero" by an ancient Indian to arithmetic. If
the decimal numbering system was the only system humans
used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.
The entire field of electronics and computer science uses
binary, octal or hexa-decimal numbering systems. Therefore,
I feel the "zero" would have been discovered by humans one
way or another anyway.
The concept of "zero" is an ancient discovery. What else
has been discovered or invented by Indians in modern India?
Almost every Indian nobel winner in science I can think of,
became successful, only after they migrated out of the
country.
Jim F
New York
On Jun 29, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Post by Jim Fernandes
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic
nonsense on one fringe with something even worse from the
opposite fringe.
...
...
...
Post by Jim Fernandes
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to
mathematics was one of the most significant inventions of
humankind. It was as transformative as the` invention of
calculus.
Post by Jim Fernandes
Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-02 05:50:51 UTC
Permalink
One of the misfortunes of India is Indians like Nascy who have never had any attachment to their motherland or their fellow countrymen, let alone any sense of pride, responsibility or duty towards them. In my opinion, along with corruption and other ills, the disgraceful attitude displayed, time and again, by these ungrateful folk is another major impediment to India's progress. What is worse is that they have cultivated this disposition, not out of any real knowledge or insight, but out of pure ignorance about India's history and its contribution to world culture, art, sculpture, music, philosophy, etc, as is clear from Nascy's boorish post appended below.

The post below and the earlier one by Jim makes it clear that their Indian authors have never heard of 20th century stalwarts such as Srinivasa Ramanujan, Chandrasekhar Venkat Raman, Satyendra Nath Bose or Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis. They have absolutely no idea what kinds of contributions are being made as we speak by institutions like the Indian Statistical Institute in Kolkata or the numerous outfits in India's own silicon valley.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in response
to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented in
India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the civilisation
between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are
claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they also used
it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa civilisation
may have followed uo on that!
Marshall Mendonza
2010-07-03 05:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Radharao Gracias:
Will the RSS at least now prove its patriotism and provides its cadres for
recruitment into the army? It is time that the Sangh Parivar cadres display
their patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where the threat lies.

Response:
I am reminded of an incident narrated by J F Ribeiro during the course of a
debate on 'Big Fight'. When Mr Ribeiro was the Police Commissioner of
Bombay, the Shiv Sena used to regularly go on a rampage every now and then.
They would be arrested and then released under political pressure. This went
on for sometime. One day they crossed the limits and Mr Ribeiro decided to
handle the situation unconventionally. Winking at his deputies, Mr Ribeiro
said to them in a loud tone,( within earshot of the arrested shiv sainiks)
to get the arrested shiv sainiks enrolled immediately into the army, and
have them sent to the Indo-Pak border so that they could show their bravado
which was being displayed on the streets of Bombay. In next to no time, the
shiv sainiks fell at his feet and whimpering promised to keep out of
trouble. After that incident, Mr Ribeiro never faced any trouble from the
SS.

Similarly, the sangh parivar cadres could be recruited into the army and a
separate regiment created for them. They could then be deployed in J&K on
the Indo-Pak border. They could also be sent to Afganistan to take care of
the Taliban or to Iraq to help the beleaguered US forces. They could even be
outsourced to the UN to be deployed in troublespots like Somalia, Nigeria,
Croatia.

Regards,

Marshall
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-03 09:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Santosh,
U mention great stalwarts, but U do not say what if anything 'original' they discovered or invented. Philosophers are found in thousands all over the world, and they are unproductive.

Secondly U say that me and Jim type are divorced from Indian reality, India and ungrateful; for what? the shen and cow's urine?
That is how India brings shame to all Indians in India and abroad.

I am enlightened compared to the majority of Indians. That is the reason I may be able to see more clearly the total picture from above (culturally above). I can therefor analyse the status in India better than those who appreciate their own shit in conservative blindness!

Open your eyes and LOOK rather than just SEE; and U will realise how unproductive and uncouth the India I love and that I am born in, is.
U do agree that it is foreigners, the world at large that must appreciate India not the saffron and non saffron type of ignorant Indians who are looking at their own tail; they are not looking beyond. How sad?

I hope all Indians grow up to take a good look at themselves compared to the world outside and not within only. Good and or Bad has meaning only when compared; else everything is either good or bad, on individual perception. This is exactly your mistake, Santosh

Nascy Caldeira
Post by Santosh Helekar
One of the misfortunes of India is
Indians like Nascy who have never had any attachment to
their motherland or their fellow countrymen, let alone any
sense of pride, responsibility or duty towards them. In my
opinion, along with corruption and other ills, the
disgraceful attitude displayed, time and again, by these
ungrateful folk is another major impediment to India's
progress.
The post below and the earlier one by Jim makes it clear
that their Indian authors have never heard of 20th century
stalwarts such as Srinivasa Ramanujan, Chandrasekhar Venkat
Raman, Satyendra Nath Bose or Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis.
They have absolutely no idea what kinds of contributions are
being made as we speak by institutions like the Indian
Statistical Institute in Kolkata or the numerous outfits in
India's own silicon valley.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Nascy Caldeira <nascycal at yahoo.com.au>
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in
response
Post by Nascy Caldeira
to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented
in
Post by Nascy Caldeira
India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the
civilisation
Post by Nascy Caldeira
between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are
claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they
also used
Post by Nascy Caldeira
it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa
civilisation
Post by Nascy Caldeira
may have followed uo on that!
? ? ?
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-03 13:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Nascy,

Here is why it is you, in addition to the corrupt politicians and some irresponsible Indians, who bring shame to India.

1. You are completely clueless about the great stalwarts of 20th century India, who were mathematical and scientific geniuses, and whose work contributed to the technological advances of today. You call them philosphers. How shameful!

2. You do not know what being civilized is, and how well regarded Indian civilization is among scholars and educated people of the rest of the world.

3. One example of how uncivilized your behavior is, is the fact that you tar all Indians with the same broad brush because of the beliefs and activities of some that you dislike.

4. You are unable to recognize what is good, bad and inconsequential about culture in general. You have never been able to point out a single good thing about India and Indians, despite having been asked to do so, repeatedly. You claim about love for India rings hollow.

Shame on you!

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
U mention great stalwarts, but U do not say what if
anything 'original' they discovered or invented.
Philosophers are found in thousands all over the world, and
they are unproductive.
Secondly U say that me and Jim type are divorced from
Indian reality, India and ungrateful; for what? the shen and
cow's urine?
That is how India brings shame to all Indians in India and
abroad.
I am enlightened compared to the majority of Indians. That
is the reason I may be able to see more clearly the total
picture from above (culturally above). I can therefor
analyse the status in India better than those who appreciate
their own shit in conservative blindness!
Open your eyes and LOOK rather than just SEE; and U will
realise how unproductive and uncouth the India I love and
that I am born in, is.
U do agree that it is foreigners, the world at large that
must appreciate India not the saffron and non saffron type
of ignorant Indians who are looking at their own tail; they
are not looking beyond. How sad?
I hope all Indians grow up to take a good look at
themselves compared to the world outside and not within
only. Good and or Bad has meaning only when compared; else
everything is either good or bad, on individual perception.
This is exactly your mistake, Santosh
Nascy Caldeira
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-03 17:03:55 UTC
Permalink
As I have said before, criticism has to be legitimate and substantive. It has to result from a genuine appraisal of facts. Criticism borne out of ignorance, prejudice or political bias is worthless. It misdirects our efforts at finding remedies, and contributes to the perpetuation of ignorance and alienation. For example, contrary to what it is stated below, and in the past, frequently by Admin Noronha and others, there is no such thing as Indian science or an Eastern science and a western science. Science is universal. Modern and ancient Indians working in India have contributed to it. Nobody can deny this fact.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick Noronha
The contribution of traditional societies to "modern"
knowledge
remains understudied and not adequately acknowledged.?
Just? came
across a journal which proposes to do this, Vigyan Bharati
Pradeepika
"dedicated to identify and rediscover the original Indian
science and
technology in a modern context". (rof Sureshwar Sharma,
Udayachal,
1881, Gupteshwar, Jabalpur 482001 MP).
Quite some time ago, I attended (as a correspondent) a
couple of
"traditional science congresses". These were held at the
IIT-Bombay
and, if I recall right, the Anna University in Chennai.
While there
was an element of mumbo-jumbo and unsubstantiated claims
being made,
there were many amazing facts coming to light there too.
Nonetheless, whatever the achievements of the remote and
recent past,
I feel we should always retain a critical element, and be
willing to
accept criticism or counterviews. If it's true, then we
need to face
up to it; if not, we can ignore it. At the very least, a
challenge to
one's position is a kind of reality check. FN
Jim Fernandes
2010-07-03 17:32:59 UTC
Permalink
I do not totally discount what Santosh says. But we need to put our thoughts into current context and perspectives.

He listed four Indian individuals below who he considers as having made radical discoveries or inventions. These individuals may be considered great heroes in India, but what he fails to admit is the fact that, out of a billion plus population in India, we Indians do not contribute proportionally to global advances and discoveries.

By the way, out of these four individuals, I have only heard of two - C V Raman, for the Raman Effect and S N Bose - a famous physicist in whose honor, the sub-atomic particles Bosons are named.

I wouldn't shy away from criticizing India and its government where it is due. To me, India is not only a weak country, but it also ain't got the balls to fight for what it is rightfully due.

Take for instance, the current case of oil spill by BP in the Gulf of Mexico. The Obama administration went after the British company and made sure that BP is going to put up 20 billion dollars in an escrow account to pay for the cleanup and other expenses.

In contrast, what did India do, when the toxic gas spill ocurred in Bhopal that killed some 3000 people? They managed to get peanuts from the American owned company and the perpertrators have been given a pat on the wrist! If a disaster of this magnitude had to happen in the United States, the US government would have shaken Heaven and Earth to make its people whole.

Indians in general, are not true innovators; but we are very good at copying what others do. Take for example, all the hottest TV shows running in India. They are mostly copy-cats of the Western shows. Even the movie industry in India, copied its name from 'Hollywood' and changed it to 'Bollywood'!

India hardly produces any talent in sports either - the evidence of which is clearly displayed during the Olympics. If all the "football" playing countries had to play cricket, India would be lucky to appear in the bottom fifty!

Even though India produces hundreds of thousands highly technical people each year, how many high technology gadgets do you see, come out of India? Ofcourse, its not all the fault of poor Indian people - but its the government policy that discourages innovation. It is also the fault of Indian corporations that spend very little on research and development. In contrast, Western governments and their companies, spend billions on research and development.

Every smart nation knows the next biggest game changing technologies are going to be in the field of 'clean energy' and genetic science. How much money, do you think India is investing to target the next biggest discoveries in these fields?

In India, if a billionaire has money, he spends it on building a billion dollar house. In the US, the billionaires are giving away their wealth to charities - and the money is mostly spent on the poor who reside outside the US.

We seem to love to bask in past glory and India's rich history. Indians were just a bunch of poor peasants ruled by princely kings. Hello? India was not even a formal country until some sixty years ago. If it hadn't been for the Brits, modern India, as we know it today, would not be there as a single nation.

I speak and understand very little Hindi, but I know what the phrase 'Saare Jahan Se Accha' means. Sadly, India is not it - which is why, I had to move out of there.

Even then, for all its faults, we still love Goa and India - because we all have our roots there.

Jim F
New York.
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
To: " estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 1:50 AM
One of the misfortunes of India is
Indians like Nascy who have never had any attachment to
their motherland or their fellow countrymen, let alone any
sense of pride, responsibility or duty towards them. In my
opinion, along with corruption and other ills, the
disgraceful attitude displayed, time and again, by these
ungrateful folk is another major impediment to India's
...
...
The post below and the earlier one by Jim makes it clear
that their Indian authors have never heard of 20th century
stalwarts such as Srinivasa Ramanujan, Chandrasekhar Venkat
Raman, Satyendra Nath Bose or Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis.
...
...
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-03 21:28:21 UTC
Permalink
Good to know that, unlike Nascy, Jim has heard of two Indian scientists mentioned by me. But from the earlier claim of zero contributions by Indians we now have the goal post being moved to lack of proportional contribution. Is this supposed to be contribution per capita or contribution per capita income? How much have Australia, South Africa, the Gulf states and most European countries contributed per capita income towards innovation and scientific advancement in the world? Indeed, more than 90% of the technological advancements have come from the United States.

Nevertheless, unlike Nascy, Jim appears to have some genuine concerns, and makes genuine points with respect to government and private sector apathy in India when it comes to research and development. The lack of philanthropy on these fronts is also a huge problem. On these points, I agree with him completely.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Jim Fernandes
I do not totally discount what
Santosh says. But we need to put our thoughts into current
context and perspectives.
He listed four Indian individuals below who he considers as
having made radical discoveries or inventions. These
individuals may be considered great heroes in India, but
what he fails to admit is the fact that, out of a billion
plus population in India, we Indians do not contribute
proportionally to global advances and discoveries.
By the way, out of these four individuals, I have only
heard of two - C V Raman, for the Raman Effect and S N Bose
- a famous physicist in whose honor, the sub-atomic
particles Bosons are named.
I wouldn't shy away from criticizing India and its
government where it is due. To me, India is not only a weak
country, but it also ain't got the balls to fight for what
it is rightfully due.
Take for instance, the current case of oil spill by BP in
the Gulf of Mexico. The Obama administration went after the
British company and made sure that BP is going to put up 20
billion dollars in an escrow account to pay for the cleanup
and other expenses.
In contrast, what did India do, when the toxic gas spill
ocurred in Bhopal that killed some 3000 people? They managed
to get peanuts from the American owned company and the
perpertrators have been given a pat on the wrist! If a
disaster of this magnitude had to happen in the United
States, the US government would have shaken Heaven and Earth
to make its people whole.
Indians in general, are not true innovators; but we are
very good at copying what others do. Take for example, all
the hottest TV shows running in India. They are mostly
copy-cats of the Western shows. Even the movie industry in
India, copied its name from 'Hollywood' and changed it to
'Bollywood'!
India hardly produces any talent in sports either - the
evidence of which is clearly displayed during the Olympics.
If all the "football" playing countries had to play cricket,
India would be lucky to appear in the bottom fifty!
Even though India produces hundreds of thousands highly
technical people each year, how many high technology gadgets
do you see, come out of India? Ofcourse, its not all the
fault of poor Indian people - but its the government policy
that discourages innovation. It is also the fault of Indian
corporations that spend very little on research and
development. In contrast, Western governments and their
companies, spend billions on research and development.
Every smart nation knows the next biggest game changing
technologies are going to be in the field of 'clean energy'
and genetic science. How much money, do you think India is
investing to target the next biggest discoveries in these
fields?
In India, if a billionaire has money, he spends it on
building a billion dollar house. In the US, the billionaires
are giving away their wealth to charities - and the money is
mostly spent on the poor who reside outside the US.
We seem to love to bask in past glory and India's rich
history. Indians were just a bunch of poor peasants ruled by
princely kings. Hello? India was not even a formal country
until some sixty years ago. If it hadn't been for the Brits,
modern India, as we know it today, would not be there as a
single nation.
I speak and understand very little Hindi, but I know what
the phrase 'Saare Jahan Se Accha' means. Sadly, India is not
it - which is why, I had to move out of there.
Even then, for all its faults, we still love Goa and India
- because we all have our roots there.
Jim F
New York.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-04 13:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Santosh,
U are definitely on the back foot here! U are deliberately distorting what JIm has said. I too will support all that Jim has written, and I kow about these two great persons he mentions. But my point is made that there was nothing 'original' in their doscoveries and or inventions, only supplementory stuff! OK?

Nascy Caldeira
Post by Santosh Helekar
Good to know that, unlike Nascy, Jim
has heard of two Indian scientists mentioned by me. But from
the earlier claim of zero contributions by Indians we now
have the goal post being moved to lack of proportional
contribution. Is this supposed to be contribution per capita
or contribution per capita income? How much have Australia,
South Africa, the Gulf states and most European countries
contributed per capita income towards innovation and
scientific advancement in the world? Indeed, more than 90%
of the technological advancements have come from the United
States.
Nevertheless, unlike Nascy, Jim appears to have some
genuine concerns, and makes genuine points with respect to
government and private sector apathy in India when it comes
to research and development. The lack of philanthropy on
these fronts is also a huge problem. On these points, I
agree with him completely.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Sat, 7/3/10, Jim Fernandes <amigo007 at att.net>
Post by Jim Fernandes
I do not totally discount what
Santosh says. But we need to put our thoughts into
current
Post by Jim Fernandes
context and perspectives.
He listed four Indian individuals below who he
considers as
Post by Jim Fernandes
having made radical discoveries or inventions. These
individuals may be considered great heroes in India,
but
Post by Jim Fernandes
what he fails to admit is the fact that, out of a
billion
Post by Jim Fernandes
plus population in India, we Indians do not
contribute
Post by Jim Fernandes
proportionally to global advances and discoveries.
By the way, out of these four individuals, I have
only
Post by Jim Fernandes
heard of two - C V Raman, for the Raman Effect and S N
Bose
Post by Jim Fernandes
- a famous physicist in whose honor, the sub-atomic
particles Bosons are named.
I wouldn't shy away from criticizing India and its
government where it is due. To me, India is not only a
weak
Post by Jim Fernandes
country, but it also ain't got the balls to fight for
what
Post by Jim Fernandes
it is rightfully due.
Take for instance, the current case of oil spill by BP
in
Post by Jim Fernandes
the Gulf of Mexico. The Obama administration went
after the
Post by Jim Fernandes
British company and made sure that BP is going to put
up 20
Post by Jim Fernandes
billion dollars in an escrow account to pay for the
cleanup
Post by Jim Fernandes
and other expenses.
In contrast, what did India do, when the toxic gas
spill
Post by Jim Fernandes
ocurred in Bhopal that killed some 3000 people? They
managed
Post by Jim Fernandes
to get peanuts from the American owned company and
the
Post by Jim Fernandes
perpertrators have been given a pat on the wrist! If
a
Post by Jim Fernandes
disaster of this magnitude had to happen in the
United
Post by Jim Fernandes
States, the US government would have shaken Heaven and
Earth
Post by Jim Fernandes
to make its people whole.
Indians in general, are not true innovators; but we
are
Post by Jim Fernandes
very good at copying what others do. Take for example,
all
Post by Jim Fernandes
the hottest TV shows running in India. They are
mostly
Post by Jim Fernandes
copy-cats of the Western shows. Even the movie
industry in
Post by Jim Fernandes
India, copied its name from 'Hollywood' and changed it
to
Post by Jim Fernandes
'Bollywood'!
India hardly produces any talent in sports either -
the
Post by Jim Fernandes
evidence of which is clearly displayed during the
Olympics.
Post by Jim Fernandes
If all the "football" playing countries had to play
cricket,
Post by Jim Fernandes
India would be lucky to appear in the bottom fifty!
Even though India produces hundreds of thousands
highly
Post by Jim Fernandes
technical people each year, how many high technology
gadgets
Post by Jim Fernandes
do you see, come out of India? Ofcourse, its not all
the
Post by Jim Fernandes
fault of poor Indian people - but its the government
policy
Post by Jim Fernandes
that discourages innovation. It is also the fault of
Indian
Post by Jim Fernandes
corporations that spend very little on research and
development. In contrast, Western governments and
their
Post by Jim Fernandes
companies, spend billions on research and
development.
Post by Jim Fernandes
Every smart nation knows the next biggest game
changing
Post by Jim Fernandes
technologies are going to be in the field of 'clean
energy'
Post by Jim Fernandes
and genetic science. How much money, do you think
India is
Post by Jim Fernandes
investing to target the next biggest discoveries in
these
Post by Jim Fernandes
fields?
In India, if a billionaire has money, he spends it on
building a billion dollar house. In the US, the
billionaires
Post by Jim Fernandes
are giving away their wealth to charities - and the
money is
Post by Jim Fernandes
mostly spent on the poor who reside outside the US.
We seem to love to bask in past glory and India's
rich
Post by Jim Fernandes
history. Indians were just a bunch of poor peasants
ruled by
Post by Jim Fernandes
princely kings. Hello? India was not even a formal
country
Post by Jim Fernandes
until some sixty years ago. If it hadn't been for the
Brits,
Post by Jim Fernandes
modern India, as we know it today, would not be there
as a
Post by Jim Fernandes
single nation.
I speak and understand very little Hindi, but I know
what
Post by Jim Fernandes
the phrase 'Saare Jahan Se Accha' means. Sadly, India
is not
Post by Jim Fernandes
it - which is why, I had to move out of there.
Even then, for all its faults, we still love Goa and
India
Post by Jim Fernandes
- because we all have our roots there.
Jim F
New York.
? ? ?
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-04 13:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Santosh,
I asked U about the stalwarts,that U mention and U are saying that I said they are philosophers. Are they philosophers is what I meant asking you, OK?

I acknowledge and so does the world that India has produced many a mathemathical genius and many a science genious too; but what great 'original' discoveries or 'original' inventions have come from these great persons who are talking about?

I do not know. Have they? then U may please enumerate for our knowledge. Simple as that.

I have said to you before that Indian total Culture is good; but there are many Bad and Ugly parts,and Bad concepts in Indian Culture that are giving all Indians a bad name. This is my primary 'resentment' And the educated Hindu Indians are doing nothing about it! Because of these shameful practices all Indians get the bad name; outsiders will not and do not pick and choose which Indian is good; They simply lump all of us togather as Bad and Ugly.

You know and must analyse the fact that: "The Strenght of a Chain is its Weakest Link"". There are too many weak links with the stupid bad and ugly, in Indian Culture, starting with so called Hindu religion, and other fields of human endeavour. Last week, I was invited by a white Australian family (where the head of family is an Uni Professor with a Doctorate. He asked me if I would be content with a good Lamb Dish that they had in mind to serve at table. I had to correct them; that I am not the Indian who eats only Lamb but prefers Beef and Pork and Chicken,in that order with lots of veges too. Most people here think that Indians only eat bloody lamb; in fact it is being advertised as such to sell; as the sale of lamb by choice is lower than Beef. 'multi cultural food' my foot. Indians are mono cultural, never multi cultural by and large. This is but one example that tells how all Indians are bracketed because of stupid Indian culture and beliefs.

Insated of correcting these, most Indians are trying to praise their Tail that is nothing but Stink. I say. That is why I am shouting from the House Top. I am also Indian and that is the reason I feel so badly about India in general, that does not allow me to really hold my head high when I walk and live in foreign lands.

Santosh I am telling U once again; by itself everything is good; but when 'compared' to the worlds cultures, Indian Culture stinks and needs to be reformatted and NOW.

Nascy Caldeira.
Post by Santosh Helekar
Nascy,
Here is why it is you, in addition to the corrupt
politicians and some irresponsible Indians, who bring shame
to India.
{Nascy: It is not me who worships animals and other weird deities and glorifies cow's urine and not Milk, and imposes these stupidities on all others!!! Hah Hah Ha!} I am thus HURT!
Post by Santosh Helekar
1. You are completely clueless about the great stalwarts of
20th century India, who were mathematical and scientific
geniuses, and whose work contributed to the technological
advances of today. You call them philosphers. How shameful!
2. You do not know what being civilized is, and how well
regarded Indian civilization is among scholars and educated
people of the rest of the world.
3. One example of how uncivilized your behavior is, is the
fact that you tar all Indians with the same broad brush
because of the beliefs and activities of some that you
dislike.
4. You are unable to recognize what is good, bad and
inconsequential about culture in general. You have never
been able to point out a single good thing about India and
Indians, despite having been asked to do so, repeatedly. You
claim about love for India rings hollow.
Shame on you!
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Sat, 7/3/10, Nascy Caldeira <nascycal at yahoo.com.au>
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
U mention great stalwarts, but U do not say what if
anything 'original' they discovered or invented.
Philosophers are found in thousands all over the
world, and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
they are unproductive.
Secondly U say that me and Jim type are divorced from
Indian reality, India and ungrateful; for what? the
shen and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
cow's urine?
That is how India brings shame to all Indians in India
and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
abroad.
I am enlightened compared to the majority of Indians.
That
Post by Nascy Caldeira
is the reason I may be able to see more clearly the
total
Post by Nascy Caldeira
picture from above (culturally above). I can therefor
analyse the status in India better than those who
appreciate
Post by Nascy Caldeira
their own shit in conservative blindness!
Open your eyes and LOOK rather than just SEE; and U
will
Post by Nascy Caldeira
realise how unproductive and uncouth the India I love
and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that I am born in, is.
U do agree that it is foreigners, the world at large
that
Post by Nascy Caldeira
must appreciate India not the saffron and non saffron
type
Post by Nascy Caldeira
of ignorant Indians who are looking at their own tail;
they
Post by Nascy Caldeira
are not looking beyond. How sad?
? I hope all Indians grow up to take a good look
at
Post by Nascy Caldeira
themselves compared to the world outside and not
within
Post by Nascy Caldeira
only. Good and or Bad has meaning only when compared;
else
Post by Nascy Caldeira
everything is either good or bad, on individual
perception.
Post by Nascy Caldeira
This is exactly your mistake, Santosh
Nascy Caldeira
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-04 18:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Nascy,

What you have written below and in an accompanying post is utter rubbish. You are fixated on what people eat, and how they dress. If they eat and dress like you, you call them civilized. Talk about mono-cultural, this is mono-maniacal stupidity. I am quite certain that the Australian professor who invited you for dinner would be laughing at you. He would certainly not have the prejudice against Indian culture that you as an Indian have based on idiotic notions such as eating beef and pork being better than eating lamb and chicken. I say it again. It is people like you who have migrated to Australia and elsewhere with your ignorance about your own motherland that are bringing shame to India. This incident with the professor illustrates it quite nicely.

Your bogus charge about lack of originality, which you make despite being totally ignorant about the discoveries of Ramanujan, Raman, Bose and Mahalanobis, is also a classic illustration of your bigotry against your own people. Anybody else would have been embarrassed by the nonsense you have written, not knowing that these Indians were some of the world's greatest mathematicians and scientists.

Ramanujan has been regarded by the rest of the world as one of the pre-eminent mathematical geniuses of all time. His original discoveries have led to the birth of severe new disciplines of mathematical research. An entire scholarly journal called "The Ramanujan Journal" is being published bimonthly since 1997 to report on original research stemming from his discoveries. Here is a description of that journal and a link to it:

QUOTE
The remarkable discoveries made by Srinivasa Ramanujan have made a great impact on several branches of mathematics, revealing deep and fundamental connections. This journal publishes papers of the highest quality in all areas of mathematics influenced by Ramanujan, including:

Hyper-geometric and basic hyper-geometric series (q-series) * Partitions, compositions and combinatory analysis * Circle method and asymptotic formulae * Mock theta functions * Elliptic and theta functions * Modular forms and automorphic functions * Special functions and definite integrals * Continued fractions * Diophantine analysis including irrationality and transcendence * Number theory * Fourier analysis with applications to number theory * Connections between Lie algebras and q-series.
UNQUOTE

http://springerlink.com/content/102986/?sortorder=asc

Raman made the original discovery of a new physical phenomenon, which earned him the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1930, and led to many technological advancements since, including Raman spectroscopy to identify the structure of various chemicals. Here is his official Nobel Prize webpage:

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1930/raman-bio.html

S. N. Bose made one of the most astounding original discoveries in Quantum Mechanics, which led to the birth of a new field in Physics called Bose-Einstein Statistics. This has led to the award of, not one, but several Nobel Prizes in Physics, the most recent one being in 2001 for the experimental confirmation of Bose-Einstein condensate, a completely new state of matter predicted by Bose's theory. Here is the Nobel Prize website for that discovery:

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2001/public.html

Mahalanobis was one of the world's great pioneers in Multi-variate Statistics and statistical surveys. His original discoveries are being used everyday in most statistical studies and in econometrics today, as well as to develop expert systems for data mining and for stock market and financial predictions.

I say once again. It is not the poor illiterate Indians who give India a bad name. The people who do so are supposedly educated people like you who, instead of learning about the real problems that India faces and trying to solve them, spit on it out of ignorance and prejudice because of your knee-jerk fawning tendency towards everything that is foreign.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
I asked U about the stalwarts,that U mention and U are
saying that I said they are philosophers. Are they
philosophers is what I meant asking you, OK?
I acknowledge and so does the world that India has produced
many a mathemathical genius and many a science genious too;
but what great 'original' discoveries or 'original'
inventions have come from these great persons who are
talking about?
I do not know. Have they? then U may please enumerate for
our knowledge. Simple as that.
I have said to you before that Indian total Culture is
good; but there are many Bad and Ugly parts,and Bad concepts
in Indian Culture that are giving all Indians a bad name.
This is my primary 'resentment' And the educated Hindu
Indians are doing nothing about it! Because of these
shameful practices all Indians get the bad name; outsiders
will not and do not pick and choose which Indian is good;
They simply lump all of us togather as Bad and Ugly.
You know and must analyse the fact that: "The Strenght of a
Chain is its Weakest Link"". There are too many weak links
with the stupid bad and ugly, in Indian Culture, starting
with so called Hindu religion, and other fields of human
endeavour. Last week, I was invited by a white Australian
family (where the head of family is an Uni Professor with a
Doctorate. He asked me if I would be content with a good
Lamb Dish that they had in mind to serve at table. I had to
correct them; that I am not the Indian who eats only Lamb
but prefers Beef and Pork and Chicken,in that order with
lots of veges too. Most people here think that Indians only
eat bloody lamb; in fact it is being advertised as such to
sell; as the sale of lamb by choice is lower than Beef.
'multi cultural food' my foot. Indians are mono cultural,
never multi cultural by and large. This is but one example
that tells how all Indians are bracketed because of stupid
Indian culture and beliefs.
Insated of correcting these, most Indians are trying to
praise their Tail that is nothing but Stink. I say. That is
why I am shouting from the House Top. I am also Indian and
that is the reason I feel so badly about India in general,
that does not allow me to really hold my head high when I
walk and live in foreign lands.
Santosh I am telling U once again; by itself everything is
good; but when 'compared' to the worlds cultures, Indian
Culture stinks and needs to be reformatted and NOW.
Nascy Caldeira.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-06 09:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Santosh!
How righteous you are! That is the reason why all Indians go abroad to UK and USA to advance their studies and research. And most of all, nobody comes to India for any higher studies, except to see the Khajurao temples?

I do know and accept re Raman etc; U should note that these persons achieved during the Raj, nothing before or after from Indian soil.

The incident I mentioned re the professor who invited me is to show you how all Indians are "stereotyped" irrespective, like the unenlightened Indians taht most are; since that is what, they the foreigners see and know thru the media. That is my complaint; not that lamb is bad or worse than other food.

I do hope more and more Indians will be able to achieve in all fields of human endeavour, in future. We, since I am also Indian, have failed this world very badly indeed. What I would like to say is this: that the west namely the Europeans have achieved, discovered and invented all this time, for centuries, hardly anything from India and or Asia. Even the Japanese have nothing of their own; but their business men are what pushed them to go abroad, learn and achieve, and they triumphed albeit with foreign knowledge. Indians are just starting to do that, and achieving; but the credit for most discoveries and inventions go to the Europeans, old and new.
I do hope Indians will give credit where due; instead of wagging their tail where not due, and deriding the west.

Cheers!
Nascy Caldeira
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
To: " estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Received: Monday, 5 July, 2010, 4:53 AM
Nascy,
What you have written below and in an accompanying post is
utter rubbish. You are fixated on what people eat, and how
they dress. If they eat and dress like you, you call them
civilized. Talk about mono-cultural, this is mono-maniacal
stupidity. I am quite certain that the Australian professor
who invited you for dinner would be laughing at you. He
would certainly not have the prejudice against Indian
culture that you as an Indian have based on idiotic notions
such as eating beef and pork being better than eating lamb
and chicken. I say it again. It is people like you who have
migrated to Australia and elsewhere with your ignorance
about your own motherland that are bringing shame to India.
This incident with the professor illustrates it quite
nicely.
Your bogus charge about lack of originality, which you make
despite being totally ignorant about the discoveries of
Ramanujan, Raman, Bose and Mahalanobis, is also a classic
illustration of your bigotry against your own people.?
Anybody else would have been embarrassed by the nonsense you
have written, not knowing that these Indians were some of
the world's greatest mathematicians and scientists.
Ramanujan has been regarded by the rest of the world as one
of the pre-eminent mathematical geniuses of all time. His
original discoveries have led to the birth of severe new
disciplines of mathematical research. An entire scholarly
journal called "The Ramanujan Journal" is being published
bimonthly since 1997 to report on original research stemming
from his discoveries. Here is a description of that journal
QUOTE
The remarkable discoveries made by Srinivasa Ramanujan have
made a great impact on several branches of mathematics,
revealing deep and fundamental connections. This journal
publishes papers of the highest quality in all areas of
Hyper-geometric and basic hyper-geometric series (q-series)
* Partitions, compositions and combinatory analysis * Circle
method and asymptotic formulae * Mock theta functions *
Elliptic and theta functions * Modular forms and automorphic
functions * Special functions and definite integrals *
Continued fractions * Diophantine analysis including
irrationality and transcendence * Number theory * Fourier
analysis with applications to number theory * Connections
between Lie algebras and q-series.
UNQUOTE
http://springerlink.com/content/102986/?sortorder=asc
Raman made the original discovery of a new physical
phenomenon, which earned him the Nobel Prize in Physics in
1930, and led to many technological advancements since,
including Raman spectroscopy to identify the structure of
various chemicals. Here is his official Nobel Prize
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1930/raman-bio.html
S. N. Bose made one of the most astounding original
discoveries in Quantum Mechanics, which led to the birth of
a new field in Physics called Bose-Einstein Statistics. This
has led to the award of, not one, but several Nobel Prizes
in Physics, the most recent one being in 2001 for the
experimental confirmation of Bose-Einstein condensate, a
completely new state of matter predicted by Bose's theory.
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2001/public.html
Mahalanobis was one of the world's great pioneers in
Multi-variate Statistics and statistical surveys. His
original discoveries are being used everyday in most
statistical studies and in econometrics today, as well as to
develop expert systems for data mining and for stock market
and financial predictions.
I say once again. It is not the poor illiterate Indians who
give India a bad name. The people who do so are supposedly
educated people like you who, instead of learning about the
real problems that India faces and trying to solve them,
spit on it out of ignorance and prejudice because of your
knee-jerk fawning tendency towards everything that is
foreign.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Sun, 7/4/10, Nascy Caldeira <nascycal at yahoo.com.au>
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
? I asked U about the stalwarts,that U mention and
U are
Post by Nascy Caldeira
saying that I said they are philosophers. Are they
philosophers is what I meant asking you, OK?
I acknowledge and so does the world that India has
produced
Post by Nascy Caldeira
many a mathemathical genius and many a science genious
too;
Post by Nascy Caldeira
but what great 'original' discoveries or 'original'
inventions have come from these great persons who are
talking about?
I do not know. Have they? then U may please enumerate
for
Post by Nascy Caldeira
our knowledge. Simple as that.
I have said to you before that Indian total Culture
is
Post by Nascy Caldeira
good; but there are many Bad and Ugly parts,and Bad
concepts
Post by Nascy Caldeira
in Indian Culture that are giving all Indians a bad
name.
Post by Nascy Caldeira
This is my primary 'resentment' And the educated
Hindu
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Indians are doing nothing about it! Because of these
shameful practices all Indians get the bad name;
outsiders
Post by Nascy Caldeira
will not and do not pick and choose which Indian is
good;
Post by Nascy Caldeira
They simply lump all of us togather as Bad and Ugly.
You know and must analyse the fact that: "The Strenght
of a
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Chain is its Weakest Link"". There are too many weak
links
Post by Nascy Caldeira
with the stupid bad and ugly, in Indian Culture,
starting
Post by Nascy Caldeira
with so called Hindu religion, and other fields of
human
Post by Nascy Caldeira
endeavour. Last week, I was invited by a white
Australian
Post by Nascy Caldeira
family (where the head of family is an Uni Professor
with a
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Doctorate. He asked me if I would be content with a
good
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Lamb Dish that they had in mind to serve at table. I
had to
Post by Nascy Caldeira
correct them; that I am not the Indian who eats only
Lamb
Post by Nascy Caldeira
but prefers Beef and Pork and Chicken,in that order
with
Post by Nascy Caldeira
lots of veges too. Most people here think that Indians
only
Post by Nascy Caldeira
eat bloody lamb; in fact it is being advertised as
such to
Post by Nascy Caldeira
sell; as the sale of lamb by choice is lower than
Beef.
Post by Nascy Caldeira
'multi cultural food' my foot. Indians are mono
cultural,
Post by Nascy Caldeira
never multi cultural by and large. This is but one
example
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that tells how all Indians are bracketed because of
stupid
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Indian culture and beliefs.
Insated of correcting these, most Indians are trying
to
Post by Nascy Caldeira
praise their Tail that is nothing but Stink. I say.
That is
Post by Nascy Caldeira
why I am shouting from the House Top. I am also Indian
and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that is the reason I feel so badly about India in
general,
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that does not allow me to really hold my head high
when I
Post by Nascy Caldeira
walk and live in foreign lands.
Santosh I am telling U once again; by itself
everything is
Post by Nascy Caldeira
good; but when 'compared' to the worlds cultures,
Indian
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Culture stinks and needs to be reformatted and NOW.
Nascy Caldeira.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-01 11:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in response to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented in India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the civilisation between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they also used it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa civilisation may have followed uo on that!

More importantly Indians of old remained at Zero! Even today India is stuck with counting in Lacs and crores; while the rest of the world has moved on to Millions, billions trillions and zillions. The ancient culture has remained ancient! The modern computing systems are based on the Binary system of counting, and boolean algebra; why? because the computer machine is based on just two states (On or OFF) of the transisitor switch, the flip flop etc. hence the British system of binary count came in handy. The decimal equivalent fed into computers are converted into binary code thru countless algorihtms, and the resultant reconverted into decimal code. There is no other way!

Decimal system is very good indeed; the world cannot do without it, but computers do not need it.

Nothing else that is good for humanity or the world at large has come from the ancient Indian culture.

Oh yes; India gave the world: Kama Sutra and Yoga!
One smart Indian saw that peole are enjoying thenselves having good sex and enjoying themselves when India was like paradise! So he wrote, compiled a book showing all the positions and rigours etc. Produce more babies,so that the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas will have more servants and lowly people available for slavery into menial work. What a wonderful brahmin concept. Should the world be grateful for that? Of course not.

Then came another smart Indian; who saw that people were having all sorts of physical and mental problems with too much sex and positions demonstrated in the Kams Sutra! etc. He advised Yoga so that people can control their emotions, their activities and above all their mind too. This Indian I like. This is something good for the world; not that it is not manifest in other cultures in different ways. Give him the credit.

Nothing else that is good comes to mind that India may have discovered or invented original.
Even The simple MOP has yet to arrive in India. Servants are yet made to go down on their knees to swap the floor for the badda sahibs!! Yak!

"Ancient Culture Indeed" But is it Good?? I do not think so. The world is laughing. LOL!!!!

Nascy Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
From: Jim Fernandes <amigo007 at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
Post by Jim Fernandes
I don't give much importance to the
invention of "zero" by an ancient Indian to arithmetic. If
the decimal numbering system was the only system humans
used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.
The entire field of electronics and computer science uses
binary, octal or hexa-decimal numbering systems. Therefore,
I feel the "zero" would have been discovered by humans one
way or another anyway.
The concept of "zero" is an ancient discovery. What else
has been discovered or invented by Indians in modern India?
Almost every Indian nobel winner in science I can think of,
became successful, only after they migrated out of the
country.
Jim F
New York
On Jun 29, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Post by Jim Fernandes
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic
nonsense on one fringe with something even worse from the
opposite fringe.
...
...
...
Post by Jim Fernandes
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to
mathematics was one of the most significant inventions of
humankind. It was as transformative as the` invention of
calculus.
Post by Jim Fernandes
Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-02 05:50:51 UTC
Permalink
One of the misfortunes of India is Indians like Nascy who have never had any attachment to their motherland or their fellow countrymen, let alone any sense of pride, responsibility or duty towards them. In my opinion, along with corruption and other ills, the disgraceful attitude displayed, time and again, by these ungrateful folk is another major impediment to India's progress. What is worse is that they have cultivated this disposition, not out of any real knowledge or insight, but out of pure ignorance about India's history and its contribution to world culture, art, sculpture, music, philosophy, etc, as is clear from Nascy's boorish post appended below.

The post below and the earlier one by Jim makes it clear that their Indian authors have never heard of 20th century stalwarts such as Srinivasa Ramanujan, Chandrasekhar Venkat Raman, Satyendra Nath Bose or Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis. They have absolutely no idea what kinds of contributions are being made as we speak by institutions like the Indian Statistical Institute in Kolkata or the numerous outfits in India's own silicon valley.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in response
to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented in
India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the civilisation
between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are
claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they also used
it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa civilisation
may have followed uo on that!
Marshall Mendonza
2010-07-03 05:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Radharao Gracias:
Will the RSS at least now prove its patriotism and provides its cadres for
recruitment into the army? It is time that the Sangh Parivar cadres display
their patriotism on the Indo-Pak border! That is where the threat lies.

Response:
I am reminded of an incident narrated by J F Ribeiro during the course of a
debate on 'Big Fight'. When Mr Ribeiro was the Police Commissioner of
Bombay, the Shiv Sena used to regularly go on a rampage every now and then.
They would be arrested and then released under political pressure. This went
on for sometime. One day they crossed the limits and Mr Ribeiro decided to
handle the situation unconventionally. Winking at his deputies, Mr Ribeiro
said to them in a loud tone,( within earshot of the arrested shiv sainiks)
to get the arrested shiv sainiks enrolled immediately into the army, and
have them sent to the Indo-Pak border so that they could show their bravado
which was being displayed on the streets of Bombay. In next to no time, the
shiv sainiks fell at his feet and whimpering promised to keep out of
trouble. After that incident, Mr Ribeiro never faced any trouble from the
SS.

Similarly, the sangh parivar cadres could be recruited into the army and a
separate regiment created for them. They could then be deployed in J&K on
the Indo-Pak border. They could also be sent to Afganistan to take care of
the Taliban or to Iraq to help the beleaguered US forces. They could even be
outsourced to the UN to be deployed in troublespots like Somalia, Nigeria,
Croatia.

Regards,

Marshall
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-03 09:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Santosh,
U mention great stalwarts, but U do not say what if anything 'original' they discovered or invented. Philosophers are found in thousands all over the world, and they are unproductive.

Secondly U say that me and Jim type are divorced from Indian reality, India and ungrateful; for what? the shen and cow's urine?
That is how India brings shame to all Indians in India and abroad.

I am enlightened compared to the majority of Indians. That is the reason I may be able to see more clearly the total picture from above (culturally above). I can therefor analyse the status in India better than those who appreciate their own shit in conservative blindness!

Open your eyes and LOOK rather than just SEE; and U will realise how unproductive and uncouth the India I love and that I am born in, is.
U do agree that it is foreigners, the world at large that must appreciate India not the saffron and non saffron type of ignorant Indians who are looking at their own tail; they are not looking beyond. How sad?

I hope all Indians grow up to take a good look at themselves compared to the world outside and not within only. Good and or Bad has meaning only when compared; else everything is either good or bad, on individual perception. This is exactly your mistake, Santosh

Nascy Caldeira
Post by Santosh Helekar
One of the misfortunes of India is
Indians like Nascy who have never had any attachment to
their motherland or their fellow countrymen, let alone any
sense of pride, responsibility or duty towards them. In my
opinion, along with corruption and other ills, the
disgraceful attitude displayed, time and again, by these
ungrateful folk is another major impediment to India's
progress.
The post below and the earlier one by Jim makes it clear
that their Indian authors have never heard of 20th century
stalwarts such as Srinivasa Ramanujan, Chandrasekhar Venkat
Raman, Satyendra Nath Bose or Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis.
They have absolutely no idea what kinds of contributions are
being made as we speak by institutions like the Indian
Statistical Institute in Kolkata or the numerous outfits in
India's own silicon valley.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Nascy Caldeira <nascycal at yahoo.com.au>
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in
response
Post by Nascy Caldeira
to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented
in
Post by Nascy Caldeira
India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the
civilisation
Post by Nascy Caldeira
between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are
claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they
also used
Post by Nascy Caldeira
it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa
civilisation
Post by Nascy Caldeira
may have followed uo on that!
? ? ?
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-03 13:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Nascy,

Here is why it is you, in addition to the corrupt politicians and some irresponsible Indians, who bring shame to India.

1. You are completely clueless about the great stalwarts of 20th century India, who were mathematical and scientific geniuses, and whose work contributed to the technological advances of today. You call them philosphers. How shameful!

2. You do not know what being civilized is, and how well regarded Indian civilization is among scholars and educated people of the rest of the world.

3. One example of how uncivilized your behavior is, is the fact that you tar all Indians with the same broad brush because of the beliefs and activities of some that you dislike.

4. You are unable to recognize what is good, bad and inconsequential about culture in general. You have never been able to point out a single good thing about India and Indians, despite having been asked to do so, repeatedly. You claim about love for India rings hollow.

Shame on you!

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
U mention great stalwarts, but U do not say what if
anything 'original' they discovered or invented.
Philosophers are found in thousands all over the world, and
they are unproductive.
Secondly U say that me and Jim type are divorced from
Indian reality, India and ungrateful; for what? the shen and
cow's urine?
That is how India brings shame to all Indians in India and
abroad.
I am enlightened compared to the majority of Indians. That
is the reason I may be able to see more clearly the total
picture from above (culturally above). I can therefor
analyse the status in India better than those who appreciate
their own shit in conservative blindness!
Open your eyes and LOOK rather than just SEE; and U will
realise how unproductive and uncouth the India I love and
that I am born in, is.
U do agree that it is foreigners, the world at large that
must appreciate India not the saffron and non saffron type
of ignorant Indians who are looking at their own tail; they
are not looking beyond. How sad?
I hope all Indians grow up to take a good look at
themselves compared to the world outside and not within
only. Good and or Bad has meaning only when compared; else
everything is either good or bad, on individual perception.
This is exactly your mistake, Santosh
Nascy Caldeira
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-03 17:03:55 UTC
Permalink
As I have said before, criticism has to be legitimate and substantive. It has to result from a genuine appraisal of facts. Criticism borne out of ignorance, prejudice or political bias is worthless. It misdirects our efforts at finding remedies, and contributes to the perpetuation of ignorance and alienation. For example, contrary to what it is stated below, and in the past, frequently by Admin Noronha and others, there is no such thing as Indian science or an Eastern science and a western science. Science is universal. Modern and ancient Indians working in India have contributed to it. Nobody can deny this fact.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick Noronha
The contribution of traditional societies to "modern"
knowledge
remains understudied and not adequately acknowledged.?
Just? came
across a journal which proposes to do this, Vigyan Bharati
Pradeepika
"dedicated to identify and rediscover the original Indian
science and
technology in a modern context". (rof Sureshwar Sharma,
Udayachal,
1881, Gupteshwar, Jabalpur 482001 MP).
Quite some time ago, I attended (as a correspondent) a
couple of
"traditional science congresses". These were held at the
IIT-Bombay
and, if I recall right, the Anna University in Chennai.
While there
was an element of mumbo-jumbo and unsubstantiated claims
being made,
there were many amazing facts coming to light there too.
Nonetheless, whatever the achievements of the remote and
recent past,
I feel we should always retain a critical element, and be
willing to
accept criticism or counterviews. If it's true, then we
need to face
up to it; if not, we can ignore it. At the very least, a
challenge to
one's position is a kind of reality check. FN
Jim Fernandes
2010-07-03 17:32:59 UTC
Permalink
I do not totally discount what Santosh says. But we need to put our thoughts into current context and perspectives.

He listed four Indian individuals below who he considers as having made radical discoveries or inventions. These individuals may be considered great heroes in India, but what he fails to admit is the fact that, out of a billion plus population in India, we Indians do not contribute proportionally to global advances and discoveries.

By the way, out of these four individuals, I have only heard of two - C V Raman, for the Raman Effect and S N Bose - a famous physicist in whose honor, the sub-atomic particles Bosons are named.

I wouldn't shy away from criticizing India and its government where it is due. To me, India is not only a weak country, but it also ain't got the balls to fight for what it is rightfully due.

Take for instance, the current case of oil spill by BP in the Gulf of Mexico. The Obama administration went after the British company and made sure that BP is going to put up 20 billion dollars in an escrow account to pay for the cleanup and other expenses.

In contrast, what did India do, when the toxic gas spill ocurred in Bhopal that killed some 3000 people? They managed to get peanuts from the American owned company and the perpertrators have been given a pat on the wrist! If a disaster of this magnitude had to happen in the United States, the US government would have shaken Heaven and Earth to make its people whole.

Indians in general, are not true innovators; but we are very good at copying what others do. Take for example, all the hottest TV shows running in India. They are mostly copy-cats of the Western shows. Even the movie industry in India, copied its name from 'Hollywood' and changed it to 'Bollywood'!

India hardly produces any talent in sports either - the evidence of which is clearly displayed during the Olympics. If all the "football" playing countries had to play cricket, India would be lucky to appear in the bottom fifty!

Even though India produces hundreds of thousands highly technical people each year, how many high technology gadgets do you see, come out of India? Ofcourse, its not all the fault of poor Indian people - but its the government policy that discourages innovation. It is also the fault of Indian corporations that spend very little on research and development. In contrast, Western governments and their companies, spend billions on research and development.

Every smart nation knows the next biggest game changing technologies are going to be in the field of 'clean energy' and genetic science. How much money, do you think India is investing to target the next biggest discoveries in these fields?

In India, if a billionaire has money, he spends it on building a billion dollar house. In the US, the billionaires are giving away their wealth to charities - and the money is mostly spent on the poor who reside outside the US.

We seem to love to bask in past glory and India's rich history. Indians were just a bunch of poor peasants ruled by princely kings. Hello? India was not even a formal country until some sixty years ago. If it hadn't been for the Brits, modern India, as we know it today, would not be there as a single nation.

I speak and understand very little Hindi, but I know what the phrase 'Saare Jahan Se Accha' means. Sadly, India is not it - which is why, I had to move out of there.

Even then, for all its faults, we still love Goa and India - because we all have our roots there.

Jim F
New York.
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
To: " estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Date: Friday, July 2, 2010, 1:50 AM
One of the misfortunes of India is
Indians like Nascy who have never had any attachment to
their motherland or their fellow countrymen, let alone any
sense of pride, responsibility or duty towards them. In my
opinion, along with corruption and other ills, the
disgraceful attitude displayed, time and again, by these
ungrateful folk is another major impediment to India's
...
...
The post below and the earlier one by Jim makes it clear
that their Indian authors have never heard of 20th century
stalwarts such as Srinivasa Ramanujan, Chandrasekhar Venkat
Raman, Satyendra Nath Bose or Prasanta Chandra Mahalanobis.
...
...
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-03 21:28:21 UTC
Permalink
Good to know that, unlike Nascy, Jim has heard of two Indian scientists mentioned by me. But from the earlier claim of zero contributions by Indians we now have the goal post being moved to lack of proportional contribution. Is this supposed to be contribution per capita or contribution per capita income? How much have Australia, South Africa, the Gulf states and most European countries contributed per capita income towards innovation and scientific advancement in the world? Indeed, more than 90% of the technological advancements have come from the United States.

Nevertheless, unlike Nascy, Jim appears to have some genuine concerns, and makes genuine points with respect to government and private sector apathy in India when it comes to research and development. The lack of philanthropy on these fronts is also a huge problem. On these points, I agree with him completely.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Jim Fernandes
I do not totally discount what
Santosh says. But we need to put our thoughts into current
context and perspectives.
He listed four Indian individuals below who he considers as
having made radical discoveries or inventions. These
individuals may be considered great heroes in India, but
what he fails to admit is the fact that, out of a billion
plus population in India, we Indians do not contribute
proportionally to global advances and discoveries.
By the way, out of these four individuals, I have only
heard of two - C V Raman, for the Raman Effect and S N Bose
- a famous physicist in whose honor, the sub-atomic
particles Bosons are named.
I wouldn't shy away from criticizing India and its
government where it is due. To me, India is not only a weak
country, but it also ain't got the balls to fight for what
it is rightfully due.
Take for instance, the current case of oil spill by BP in
the Gulf of Mexico. The Obama administration went after the
British company and made sure that BP is going to put up 20
billion dollars in an escrow account to pay for the cleanup
and other expenses.
In contrast, what did India do, when the toxic gas spill
ocurred in Bhopal that killed some 3000 people? They managed
to get peanuts from the American owned company and the
perpertrators have been given a pat on the wrist! If a
disaster of this magnitude had to happen in the United
States, the US government would have shaken Heaven and Earth
to make its people whole.
Indians in general, are not true innovators; but we are
very good at copying what others do. Take for example, all
the hottest TV shows running in India. They are mostly
copy-cats of the Western shows. Even the movie industry in
India, copied its name from 'Hollywood' and changed it to
'Bollywood'!
India hardly produces any talent in sports either - the
evidence of which is clearly displayed during the Olympics.
If all the "football" playing countries had to play cricket,
India would be lucky to appear in the bottom fifty!
Even though India produces hundreds of thousands highly
technical people each year, how many high technology gadgets
do you see, come out of India? Ofcourse, its not all the
fault of poor Indian people - but its the government policy
that discourages innovation. It is also the fault of Indian
corporations that spend very little on research and
development. In contrast, Western governments and their
companies, spend billions on research and development.
Every smart nation knows the next biggest game changing
technologies are going to be in the field of 'clean energy'
and genetic science. How much money, do you think India is
investing to target the next biggest discoveries in these
fields?
In India, if a billionaire has money, he spends it on
building a billion dollar house. In the US, the billionaires
are giving away their wealth to charities - and the money is
mostly spent on the poor who reside outside the US.
We seem to love to bask in past glory and India's rich
history. Indians were just a bunch of poor peasants ruled by
princely kings. Hello? India was not even a formal country
until some sixty years ago. If it hadn't been for the Brits,
modern India, as we know it today, would not be there as a
single nation.
I speak and understand very little Hindi, but I know what
the phrase 'Saare Jahan Se Accha' means. Sadly, India is not
it - which is why, I had to move out of there.
Even then, for all its faults, we still love Goa and India
- because we all have our roots there.
Jim F
New York.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-04 13:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Santosh,
U are definitely on the back foot here! U are deliberately distorting what JIm has said. I too will support all that Jim has written, and I kow about these two great persons he mentions. But my point is made that there was nothing 'original' in their doscoveries and or inventions, only supplementory stuff! OK?

Nascy Caldeira
Post by Santosh Helekar
Good to know that, unlike Nascy, Jim
has heard of two Indian scientists mentioned by me. But from
the earlier claim of zero contributions by Indians we now
have the goal post being moved to lack of proportional
contribution. Is this supposed to be contribution per capita
or contribution per capita income? How much have Australia,
South Africa, the Gulf states and most European countries
contributed per capita income towards innovation and
scientific advancement in the world? Indeed, more than 90%
of the technological advancements have come from the United
States.
Nevertheless, unlike Nascy, Jim appears to have some
genuine concerns, and makes genuine points with respect to
government and private sector apathy in India when it comes
to research and development. The lack of philanthropy on
these fronts is also a huge problem. On these points, I
agree with him completely.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Sat, 7/3/10, Jim Fernandes <amigo007 at att.net>
Post by Jim Fernandes
I do not totally discount what
Santosh says. But we need to put our thoughts into
current
Post by Jim Fernandes
context and perspectives.
He listed four Indian individuals below who he
considers as
Post by Jim Fernandes
having made radical discoveries or inventions. These
individuals may be considered great heroes in India,
but
Post by Jim Fernandes
what he fails to admit is the fact that, out of a
billion
Post by Jim Fernandes
plus population in India, we Indians do not
contribute
Post by Jim Fernandes
proportionally to global advances and discoveries.
By the way, out of these four individuals, I have
only
Post by Jim Fernandes
heard of two - C V Raman, for the Raman Effect and S N
Bose
Post by Jim Fernandes
- a famous physicist in whose honor, the sub-atomic
particles Bosons are named.
I wouldn't shy away from criticizing India and its
government where it is due. To me, India is not only a
weak
Post by Jim Fernandes
country, but it also ain't got the balls to fight for
what
Post by Jim Fernandes
it is rightfully due.
Take for instance, the current case of oil spill by BP
in
Post by Jim Fernandes
the Gulf of Mexico. The Obama administration went
after the
Post by Jim Fernandes
British company and made sure that BP is going to put
up 20
Post by Jim Fernandes
billion dollars in an escrow account to pay for the
cleanup
Post by Jim Fernandes
and other expenses.
In contrast, what did India do, when the toxic gas
spill
Post by Jim Fernandes
ocurred in Bhopal that killed some 3000 people? They
managed
Post by Jim Fernandes
to get peanuts from the American owned company and
the
Post by Jim Fernandes
perpertrators have been given a pat on the wrist! If
a
Post by Jim Fernandes
disaster of this magnitude had to happen in the
United
Post by Jim Fernandes
States, the US government would have shaken Heaven and
Earth
Post by Jim Fernandes
to make its people whole.
Indians in general, are not true innovators; but we
are
Post by Jim Fernandes
very good at copying what others do. Take for example,
all
Post by Jim Fernandes
the hottest TV shows running in India. They are
mostly
Post by Jim Fernandes
copy-cats of the Western shows. Even the movie
industry in
Post by Jim Fernandes
India, copied its name from 'Hollywood' and changed it
to
Post by Jim Fernandes
'Bollywood'!
India hardly produces any talent in sports either -
the
Post by Jim Fernandes
evidence of which is clearly displayed during the
Olympics.
Post by Jim Fernandes
If all the "football" playing countries had to play
cricket,
Post by Jim Fernandes
India would be lucky to appear in the bottom fifty!
Even though India produces hundreds of thousands
highly
Post by Jim Fernandes
technical people each year, how many high technology
gadgets
Post by Jim Fernandes
do you see, come out of India? Ofcourse, its not all
the
Post by Jim Fernandes
fault of poor Indian people - but its the government
policy
Post by Jim Fernandes
that discourages innovation. It is also the fault of
Indian
Post by Jim Fernandes
corporations that spend very little on research and
development. In contrast, Western governments and
their
Post by Jim Fernandes
companies, spend billions on research and
development.
Post by Jim Fernandes
Every smart nation knows the next biggest game
changing
Post by Jim Fernandes
technologies are going to be in the field of 'clean
energy'
Post by Jim Fernandes
and genetic science. How much money, do you think
India is
Post by Jim Fernandes
investing to target the next biggest discoveries in
these
Post by Jim Fernandes
fields?
In India, if a billionaire has money, he spends it on
building a billion dollar house. In the US, the
billionaires
Post by Jim Fernandes
are giving away their wealth to charities - and the
money is
Post by Jim Fernandes
mostly spent on the poor who reside outside the US.
We seem to love to bask in past glory and India's
rich
Post by Jim Fernandes
history. Indians were just a bunch of poor peasants
ruled by
Post by Jim Fernandes
princely kings. Hello? India was not even a formal
country
Post by Jim Fernandes
until some sixty years ago. If it hadn't been for the
Brits,
Post by Jim Fernandes
modern India, as we know it today, would not be there
as a
Post by Jim Fernandes
single nation.
I speak and understand very little Hindi, but I know
what
Post by Jim Fernandes
the phrase 'Saare Jahan Se Accha' means. Sadly, India
is not
Post by Jim Fernandes
it - which is why, I had to move out of there.
Even then, for all its faults, we still love Goa and
India
Post by Jim Fernandes
- because we all have our roots there.
Jim F
New York.
? ? ?
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-04 13:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Santosh,
I asked U about the stalwarts,that U mention and U are saying that I said they are philosophers. Are they philosophers is what I meant asking you, OK?

I acknowledge and so does the world that India has produced many a mathemathical genius and many a science genious too; but what great 'original' discoveries or 'original' inventions have come from these great persons who are talking about?

I do not know. Have they? then U may please enumerate for our knowledge. Simple as that.

I have said to you before that Indian total Culture is good; but there are many Bad and Ugly parts,and Bad concepts in Indian Culture that are giving all Indians a bad name. This is my primary 'resentment' And the educated Hindu Indians are doing nothing about it! Because of these shameful practices all Indians get the bad name; outsiders will not and do not pick and choose which Indian is good; They simply lump all of us togather as Bad and Ugly.

You know and must analyse the fact that: "The Strenght of a Chain is its Weakest Link"". There are too many weak links with the stupid bad and ugly, in Indian Culture, starting with so called Hindu religion, and other fields of human endeavour. Last week, I was invited by a white Australian family (where the head of family is an Uni Professor with a Doctorate. He asked me if I would be content with a good Lamb Dish that they had in mind to serve at table. I had to correct them; that I am not the Indian who eats only Lamb but prefers Beef and Pork and Chicken,in that order with lots of veges too. Most people here think that Indians only eat bloody lamb; in fact it is being advertised as such to sell; as the sale of lamb by choice is lower than Beef. 'multi cultural food' my foot. Indians are mono cultural, never multi cultural by and large. This is but one example that tells how all Indians are bracketed because of stupid Indian culture and beliefs.

Insated of correcting these, most Indians are trying to praise their Tail that is nothing but Stink. I say. That is why I am shouting from the House Top. I am also Indian and that is the reason I feel so badly about India in general, that does not allow me to really hold my head high when I walk and live in foreign lands.

Santosh I am telling U once again; by itself everything is good; but when 'compared' to the worlds cultures, Indian Culture stinks and needs to be reformatted and NOW.

Nascy Caldeira.
Post by Santosh Helekar
Nascy,
Here is why it is you, in addition to the corrupt
politicians and some irresponsible Indians, who bring shame
to India.
{Nascy: It is not me who worships animals and other weird deities and glorifies cow's urine and not Milk, and imposes these stupidities on all others!!! Hah Hah Ha!} I am thus HURT!
Post by Santosh Helekar
1. You are completely clueless about the great stalwarts of
20th century India, who were mathematical and scientific
geniuses, and whose work contributed to the technological
advances of today. You call them philosphers. How shameful!
2. You do not know what being civilized is, and how well
regarded Indian civilization is among scholars and educated
people of the rest of the world.
3. One example of how uncivilized your behavior is, is the
fact that you tar all Indians with the same broad brush
because of the beliefs and activities of some that you
dislike.
4. You are unable to recognize what is good, bad and
inconsequential about culture in general. You have never
been able to point out a single good thing about India and
Indians, despite having been asked to do so, repeatedly. You
claim about love for India rings hollow.
Shame on you!
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Sat, 7/3/10, Nascy Caldeira <nascycal at yahoo.com.au>
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
U mention great stalwarts, but U do not say what if
anything 'original' they discovered or invented.
Philosophers are found in thousands all over the
world, and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
they are unproductive.
Secondly U say that me and Jim type are divorced from
Indian reality, India and ungrateful; for what? the
shen and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
cow's urine?
That is how India brings shame to all Indians in India
and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
abroad.
I am enlightened compared to the majority of Indians.
That
Post by Nascy Caldeira
is the reason I may be able to see more clearly the
total
Post by Nascy Caldeira
picture from above (culturally above). I can therefor
analyse the status in India better than those who
appreciate
Post by Nascy Caldeira
their own shit in conservative blindness!
Open your eyes and LOOK rather than just SEE; and U
will
Post by Nascy Caldeira
realise how unproductive and uncouth the India I love
and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that I am born in, is.
U do agree that it is foreigners, the world at large
that
Post by Nascy Caldeira
must appreciate India not the saffron and non saffron
type
Post by Nascy Caldeira
of ignorant Indians who are looking at their own tail;
they
Post by Nascy Caldeira
are not looking beyond. How sad?
? I hope all Indians grow up to take a good look
at
Post by Nascy Caldeira
themselves compared to the world outside and not
within
Post by Nascy Caldeira
only. Good and or Bad has meaning only when compared;
else
Post by Nascy Caldeira
everything is either good or bad, on individual
perception.
Post by Nascy Caldeira
This is exactly your mistake, Santosh
Nascy Caldeira
Santosh Helekar
2010-07-04 18:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Nascy,

What you have written below and in an accompanying post is utter rubbish. You are fixated on what people eat, and how they dress. If they eat and dress like you, you call them civilized. Talk about mono-cultural, this is mono-maniacal stupidity. I am quite certain that the Australian professor who invited you for dinner would be laughing at you. He would certainly not have the prejudice against Indian culture that you as an Indian have based on idiotic notions such as eating beef and pork being better than eating lamb and chicken. I say it again. It is people like you who have migrated to Australia and elsewhere with your ignorance about your own motherland that are bringing shame to India. This incident with the professor illustrates it quite nicely.

Your bogus charge about lack of originality, which you make despite being totally ignorant about the discoveries of Ramanujan, Raman, Bose and Mahalanobis, is also a classic illustration of your bigotry against your own people. Anybody else would have been embarrassed by the nonsense you have written, not knowing that these Indians were some of the world's greatest mathematicians and scientists.

Ramanujan has been regarded by the rest of the world as one of the pre-eminent mathematical geniuses of all time. His original discoveries have led to the birth of severe new disciplines of mathematical research. An entire scholarly journal called "The Ramanujan Journal" is being published bimonthly since 1997 to report on original research stemming from his discoveries. Here is a description of that journal and a link to it:

QUOTE
The remarkable discoveries made by Srinivasa Ramanujan have made a great impact on several branches of mathematics, revealing deep and fundamental connections. This journal publishes papers of the highest quality in all areas of mathematics influenced by Ramanujan, including:

Hyper-geometric and basic hyper-geometric series (q-series) * Partitions, compositions and combinatory analysis * Circle method and asymptotic formulae * Mock theta functions * Elliptic and theta functions * Modular forms and automorphic functions * Special functions and definite integrals * Continued fractions * Diophantine analysis including irrationality and transcendence * Number theory * Fourier analysis with applications to number theory * Connections between Lie algebras and q-series.
UNQUOTE

http://springerlink.com/content/102986/?sortorder=asc

Raman made the original discovery of a new physical phenomenon, which earned him the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1930, and led to many technological advancements since, including Raman spectroscopy to identify the structure of various chemicals. Here is his official Nobel Prize webpage:

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1930/raman-bio.html

S. N. Bose made one of the most astounding original discoveries in Quantum Mechanics, which led to the birth of a new field in Physics called Bose-Einstein Statistics. This has led to the award of, not one, but several Nobel Prizes in Physics, the most recent one being in 2001 for the experimental confirmation of Bose-Einstein condensate, a completely new state of matter predicted by Bose's theory. Here is the Nobel Prize website for that discovery:

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2001/public.html

Mahalanobis was one of the world's great pioneers in Multi-variate Statistics and statistical surveys. His original discoveries are being used everyday in most statistical studies and in econometrics today, as well as to develop expert systems for data mining and for stock market and financial predictions.

I say once again. It is not the poor illiterate Indians who give India a bad name. The people who do so are supposedly educated people like you who, instead of learning about the real problems that India faces and trying to solve them, spit on it out of ignorance and prejudice because of your knee-jerk fawning tendency towards everything that is foreign.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
I asked U about the stalwarts,that U mention and U are
saying that I said they are philosophers. Are they
philosophers is what I meant asking you, OK?
I acknowledge and so does the world that India has produced
many a mathemathical genius and many a science genious too;
but what great 'original' discoveries or 'original'
inventions have come from these great persons who are
talking about?
I do not know. Have they? then U may please enumerate for
our knowledge. Simple as that.
I have said to you before that Indian total Culture is
good; but there are many Bad and Ugly parts,and Bad concepts
in Indian Culture that are giving all Indians a bad name.
This is my primary 'resentment' And the educated Hindu
Indians are doing nothing about it! Because of these
shameful practices all Indians get the bad name; outsiders
will not and do not pick and choose which Indian is good;
They simply lump all of us togather as Bad and Ugly.
You know and must analyse the fact that: "The Strenght of a
Chain is its Weakest Link"". There are too many weak links
with the stupid bad and ugly, in Indian Culture, starting
with so called Hindu religion, and other fields of human
endeavour. Last week, I was invited by a white Australian
family (where the head of family is an Uni Professor with a
Doctorate. He asked me if I would be content with a good
Lamb Dish that they had in mind to serve at table. I had to
correct them; that I am not the Indian who eats only Lamb
but prefers Beef and Pork and Chicken,in that order with
lots of veges too. Most people here think that Indians only
eat bloody lamb; in fact it is being advertised as such to
sell; as the sale of lamb by choice is lower than Beef.
'multi cultural food' my foot. Indians are mono cultural,
never multi cultural by and large. This is but one example
that tells how all Indians are bracketed because of stupid
Indian culture and beliefs.
Insated of correcting these, most Indians are trying to
praise their Tail that is nothing but Stink. I say. That is
why I am shouting from the House Top. I am also Indian and
that is the reason I feel so badly about India in general,
that does not allow me to really hold my head high when I
walk and live in foreign lands.
Santosh I am telling U once again; by itself everything is
good; but when 'compared' to the worlds cultures, Indian
Culture stinks and needs to be reformatted and NOW.
Nascy Caldeira.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-06 09:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Santosh!
How righteous you are! That is the reason why all Indians go abroad to UK and USA to advance their studies and research. And most of all, nobody comes to India for any higher studies, except to see the Khajurao temples?

I do know and accept re Raman etc; U should note that these persons achieved during the Raj, nothing before or after from Indian soil.

The incident I mentioned re the professor who invited me is to show you how all Indians are "stereotyped" irrespective, like the unenlightened Indians taht most are; since that is what, they the foreigners see and know thru the media. That is my complaint; not that lamb is bad or worse than other food.

I do hope more and more Indians will be able to achieve in all fields of human endeavour, in future. We, since I am also Indian, have failed this world very badly indeed. What I would like to say is this: that the west namely the Europeans have achieved, discovered and invented all this time, for centuries, hardly anything from India and or Asia. Even the Japanese have nothing of their own; but their business men are what pushed them to go abroad, learn and achieve, and they triumphed albeit with foreign knowledge. Indians are just starting to do that, and achieving; but the credit for most discoveries and inventions go to the Europeans, old and new.
I do hope Indians will give credit where due; instead of wagging their tail where not due, and deriding the west.

Cheers!
Nascy Caldeira
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
To: " estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Received: Monday, 5 July, 2010, 4:53 AM
Nascy,
What you have written below and in an accompanying post is
utter rubbish. You are fixated on what people eat, and how
they dress. If they eat and dress like you, you call them
civilized. Talk about mono-cultural, this is mono-maniacal
stupidity. I am quite certain that the Australian professor
who invited you for dinner would be laughing at you. He
would certainly not have the prejudice against Indian
culture that you as an Indian have based on idiotic notions
such as eating beef and pork being better than eating lamb
and chicken. I say it again. It is people like you who have
migrated to Australia and elsewhere with your ignorance
about your own motherland that are bringing shame to India.
This incident with the professor illustrates it quite
nicely.
Your bogus charge about lack of originality, which you make
despite being totally ignorant about the discoveries of
Ramanujan, Raman, Bose and Mahalanobis, is also a classic
illustration of your bigotry against your own people.?
Anybody else would have been embarrassed by the nonsense you
have written, not knowing that these Indians were some of
the world's greatest mathematicians and scientists.
Ramanujan has been regarded by the rest of the world as one
of the pre-eminent mathematical geniuses of all time. His
original discoveries have led to the birth of severe new
disciplines of mathematical research. An entire scholarly
journal called "The Ramanujan Journal" is being published
bimonthly since 1997 to report on original research stemming
from his discoveries. Here is a description of that journal
QUOTE
The remarkable discoveries made by Srinivasa Ramanujan have
made a great impact on several branches of mathematics,
revealing deep and fundamental connections. This journal
publishes papers of the highest quality in all areas of
Hyper-geometric and basic hyper-geometric series (q-series)
* Partitions, compositions and combinatory analysis * Circle
method and asymptotic formulae * Mock theta functions *
Elliptic and theta functions * Modular forms and automorphic
functions * Special functions and definite integrals *
Continued fractions * Diophantine analysis including
irrationality and transcendence * Number theory * Fourier
analysis with applications to number theory * Connections
between Lie algebras and q-series.
UNQUOTE
http://springerlink.com/content/102986/?sortorder=asc
Raman made the original discovery of a new physical
phenomenon, which earned him the Nobel Prize in Physics in
1930, and led to many technological advancements since,
including Raman spectroscopy to identify the structure of
various chemicals. Here is his official Nobel Prize
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1930/raman-bio.html
S. N. Bose made one of the most astounding original
discoveries in Quantum Mechanics, which led to the birth of
a new field in Physics called Bose-Einstein Statistics. This
has led to the award of, not one, but several Nobel Prizes
in Physics, the most recent one being in 2001 for the
experimental confirmation of Bose-Einstein condensate, a
completely new state of matter predicted by Bose's theory.
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2001/public.html
Mahalanobis was one of the world's great pioneers in
Multi-variate Statistics and statistical surveys. His
original discoveries are being used everyday in most
statistical studies and in econometrics today, as well as to
develop expert systems for data mining and for stock market
and financial predictions.
I say once again. It is not the poor illiterate Indians who
give India a bad name. The people who do so are supposedly
educated people like you who, instead of learning about the
real problems that India faces and trying to solve them,
spit on it out of ignorance and prejudice because of your
knee-jerk fawning tendency towards everything that is
foreign.
Cheers,
Santosh
--- On Sun, 7/4/10, Nascy Caldeira <nascycal at yahoo.com.au>
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Santosh,
? I asked U about the stalwarts,that U mention and
U are
Post by Nascy Caldeira
saying that I said they are philosophers. Are they
philosophers is what I meant asking you, OK?
I acknowledge and so does the world that India has
produced
Post by Nascy Caldeira
many a mathemathical genius and many a science genious
too;
Post by Nascy Caldeira
but what great 'original' discoveries or 'original'
inventions have come from these great persons who are
talking about?
I do not know. Have they? then U may please enumerate
for
Post by Nascy Caldeira
our knowledge. Simple as that.
I have said to you before that Indian total Culture
is
Post by Nascy Caldeira
good; but there are many Bad and Ugly parts,and Bad
concepts
Post by Nascy Caldeira
in Indian Culture that are giving all Indians a bad
name.
Post by Nascy Caldeira
This is my primary 'resentment' And the educated
Hindu
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Indians are doing nothing about it! Because of these
shameful practices all Indians get the bad name;
outsiders
Post by Nascy Caldeira
will not and do not pick and choose which Indian is
good;
Post by Nascy Caldeira
They simply lump all of us togather as Bad and Ugly.
You know and must analyse the fact that: "The Strenght
of a
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Chain is its Weakest Link"". There are too many weak
links
Post by Nascy Caldeira
with the stupid bad and ugly, in Indian Culture,
starting
Post by Nascy Caldeira
with so called Hindu religion, and other fields of
human
Post by Nascy Caldeira
endeavour. Last week, I was invited by a white
Australian
Post by Nascy Caldeira
family (where the head of family is an Uni Professor
with a
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Doctorate. He asked me if I would be content with a
good
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Lamb Dish that they had in mind to serve at table. I
had to
Post by Nascy Caldeira
correct them; that I am not the Indian who eats only
Lamb
Post by Nascy Caldeira
but prefers Beef and Pork and Chicken,in that order
with
Post by Nascy Caldeira
lots of veges too. Most people here think that Indians
only
Post by Nascy Caldeira
eat bloody lamb; in fact it is being advertised as
such to
Post by Nascy Caldeira
sell; as the sale of lamb by choice is lower than
Beef.
Post by Nascy Caldeira
'multi cultural food' my foot. Indians are mono
cultural,
Post by Nascy Caldeira
never multi cultural by and large. This is but one
example
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that tells how all Indians are bracketed because of
stupid
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Indian culture and beliefs.
Insated of correcting these, most Indians are trying
to
Post by Nascy Caldeira
praise their Tail that is nothing but Stink. I say.
That is
Post by Nascy Caldeira
why I am shouting from the House Top. I am also Indian
and
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that is the reason I feel so badly about India in
general,
Post by Nascy Caldeira
that does not allow me to really hold my head high
when I
Post by Nascy Caldeira
walk and live in foreign lands.
Santosh I am telling U once again; by itself
everything is
Post by Nascy Caldeira
good; but when 'compared' to the worlds cultures,
Indian
Post by Nascy Caldeira
Culture stinks and needs to be reformatted and NOW.
Nascy Caldeira.
Nascy Caldeira
2010-07-01 11:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Jim,
U have correctly stated what I wanted to say, in response to what great? Santosh had to say on this.
I would like to add: The zero may have been invented in India; but this is disputed. The Sumerians the civilisation between the two great rivers in what is now Iraq, are claiming the xero concept is theirs; and that they also used it to invent the decimal system. Indian Harrapa civilisation may have followed uo on that!

More importantly Indians of old remained at Zero! Even today India is stuck with counting in Lacs and crores; while the rest of the world has moved on to Millions, billions trillions and zillions. The ancient culture has remained ancient! The modern computing systems are based on the Binary system of counting, and boolean algebra; why? because the computer machine is based on just two states (On or OFF) of the transisitor switch, the flip flop etc. hence the British system of binary count came in handy. The decimal equivalent fed into computers are converted into binary code thru countless algorihtms, and the resultant reconverted into decimal code. There is no other way!

Decimal system is very good indeed; the world cannot do without it, but computers do not need it.

Nothing else that is good for humanity or the world at large has come from the ancient Indian culture.

Oh yes; India gave the world: Kama Sutra and Yoga!
One smart Indian saw that peole are enjoying thenselves having good sex and enjoying themselves when India was like paradise! So he wrote, compiled a book showing all the positions and rigours etc. Produce more babies,so that the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas will have more servants and lowly people available for slavery into menial work. What a wonderful brahmin concept. Should the world be grateful for that? Of course not.

Then came another smart Indian; who saw that people were having all sorts of physical and mental problems with too much sex and positions demonstrated in the Kams Sutra! etc. He advised Yoga so that people can control their emotions, their activities and above all their mind too. This Indian I like. This is something good for the world; not that it is not manifest in other cultures in different ways. Give him the credit.

Nothing else that is good comes to mind that India may have discovered or invented original.
Even The simple MOP has yet to arrive in India. Servants are yet made to go down on their knees to swap the floor for the badda sahibs!! Yak!

"Ancient Culture Indeed" But is it Good?? I do not think so. The world is laughing. LOL!!!!

Nascy Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
From: Jim Fernandes <amigo007 at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] India, the hype and the reality... (Radharao Gracias)
Post by Jim Fernandes
I don't give much importance to the
invention of "zero" by an ancient Indian to arithmetic. If
the decimal numbering system was the only system humans
used, maybe one could argue on it's importance.
The entire field of electronics and computer science uses
binary, octal or hexa-decimal numbering systems. Therefore,
I feel the "zero" would have been discovered by humans one
way or another anyway.
The concept of "zero" is an ancient discovery. What else
has been discovered or invented by Indians in modern India?
Almost every Indian nobel winner in science I can think of,
became successful, only after they migrated out of the
country.
Jim F
New York
On Jun 29, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>
Post by Jim Fernandes
I am always amazed why people counter hyperbolic
nonsense on one fringe with something even worse from the
opposite fringe.
...
...
...
Post by Jim Fernandes
BTW, the literal contribution of zero by an Indian to
mathematics was one of the most significant inventions of
humankind. It was as transformative as the` invention of
calculus.
Post by Jim Fernandes
Santosh
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