Discussion:
Voice Of The Exploited
(too old to reply)
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-20 10:21:55 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.

As you are aware there have been heightened attacks on the Christians in
some parts of the country in the last few months. And given the communal
situation in the country, portrayal of such sensitive themes don't augur
well as there could be a communal fall out as a consequence.

It is quite obvious from the refusal of TV channels to telecast the
promos,
that the Director is hell bent on raising the communal heat by
screening this movie. We therefore earnestly, urge the Director to
withdraw this movie from a telecast
Frederick Noronha(FN)
2005-02-20 14:15:03 UTC
Permalink
With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

Frederick Noronha
Saligao-Goa
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.
I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards
Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT
Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.
This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.
jose colaco
2005-02-20 16:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,

With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS].

I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.

The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.

For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS. Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.

Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS

Perhaps to emphasize the point that SEX is sinful, and that the only people
who are having Sex are the priests and videshis.

Talking about that ..... WHY on earth are priests not allowed to have sexual
relationships ?


Now.....here are new topics for Mr. Vinod Pande and the Saffron Righties

1. Sex and the Devadasis
2. Manu and Sex
3. The non-existence of homosexuality in India
4. the "asexual" Sadhus of India
5. Rape....the art of pleasing young Bihari and foreign(white) women
6. Prostitution among Indian College girls - a 'fictional' story


And new topics for Krischen Righties

1. Food and health care for poor children - a science-fiction story
2. Abuse - is good for you
3. Silence is Golden - See no evil, Sweep the evil (under the carpet) - Evil
ain't happening

good wishes
jc

attachments:

1. Sandeep on vesana.com : Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a
forbidden territory eh?

2. Righties about the film FIRE : The film insults centuries of Hindu
tradition

3. Fred Noronha : Where does sensitive film-making end and censorship begin

4. Gilbert Lawrence : Don't censor ....only (?) block !

5. AICU & BCS : Withdraw movie


(1)
Sandeep wrote http://sandeep.vesana.com/

So there! Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a forbidden territory eh? But
of course. The public doesn't need to know the lurid details of a person who
takes vows of celibacy and later indulges in some hanky panky in what is
generally the teenagers' domain: the car.

Moreover, as Pande says, this film is based on a true-life incident. And
that perhaps angers the Church more than anything. Bitter truth told on
celluloid. What did the Church expect? That Pande take "permission" to make
the movie? This again reminds me of the all-powerful Medieval Church that
mandated what writers could (or could not) write, or what artists could (or
could not) paint. Hypothetically, if Pande had approached the Church for
"permission," what were his chances of securing it?

===

(2)

Deepa Mehta's Fire 1998
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/fire.html


In early 1998, Canadian director Deepa Mehta receives a death threat after
the first Indian screening of her film, Fire. The movie portrays an evolving
lesbian relationship between two Delhi sisters-in-law who are each trapped
in joyless marriages. Mehta spends the next year under 24-hour police
protection, while in North America and Europe

Fire.....attracts violent protest from members of a fundamentalist Hindu
party, Shiv Sena. Mobs of protesters storm cinemas in Bombay and Delhi,
smashing windows and threatening theater managers. They claim the film
insults centuries of Hindu tradition and is a direct attack on the
institution of marriage.

==

(3)

Fred Noronha wrote

With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

===
(4)


Gilbert Lawrence wrote

GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are in
the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod Pande.
Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any immunity in
doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In fact for a minimum
we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart though they may consider
themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators play a
role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes nothing more
than a sensational tabloid.

===

(5)

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'

The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize the
so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments
of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line
between pornography, truth and fiction.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-20 22:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a
sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other
posts.
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to
a fictional film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly
stated to be so, would be censorship. But people have
a right to protest against it.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sachin Phadte
2005-02-21 06:00:42 UTC
Permalink
One of the objections to the film has been that in the present tense
communal atmosphere in India, the movie could be used for increasing
attacks on Christians. I do not know if this is valid, but will stand
corrected on this issue.

Fred is right when he says: "I'm not sure where the line between sensitive
film-making ends and censorship in the name of religion begins." It is a
tricky issue. However, we shoud recognise that the organisations/persons
who are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.

I am a little intrigued about the introduction of the name of
Shankaracharya of Puri in this thread. Can Fred elucidate more on it?

Sachin Phadte.

_________________________________________________________________
Trailblazer Narain Karthikeyan. Know more about him ?n his life.
http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/tataracing/ Stay in the loop with Tata Racing!
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-24 01:33:02 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
I agree with you about creating a controversy and the added publicity.
It's like me creating the controversy about 'church bashing' and
dragging the thread out even longer.
But if no one stands-up, then the silence suggest consent, agreement,
accord, endorsement. That is why I suggested that the moderators /
administrators of the Goa mailing list take a stand on the trash - even
if it's fictional and from their friends. For the same reason, I support
the action of All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic
Sabha [BCS].
Response to the other posts to follow.
Regards

jose colaco
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,
With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with
you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha
[BCS].
I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF
THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.
The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.
For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into
providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom
may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS.
Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.
Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took
their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-26 02:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,
I think you make a good point. And thank you!
But! Soon the word fiction is lost and / or forgotten.
And it (fiction) becomes the perception and soon the reality!
This is the evolution on the brutality (not history) of Goa's
inquisition.
The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing
in South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the
'process of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was
not a word on the facts and statistics.

If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional situation.
One does not have to select a living / existing individual or
institution.
Because then ... it is more like profanity, irreverence and libelous.
If not libel, perhaps you or some one else can explain to us why not?

Freedom of Speech is great! But just because one can say anything
doesn't mean one should.
Regards. GL

Santosh Helekar:
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to a fictional
film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly stated to be so,
would be censorship. But people have a right to protest against it.
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid.
I noticed the ire generated about wrong information on Thalassemia
and other posts.
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-26 03:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional
situation. One does not have to select a living/
existing individual or institution.
Gilbert,

I am not sure I understand you. Are you saying that
one should not write fiction based on factual
situations affecting an individual who is presently
alive or an institution that is presently in
existence? Can one write a factual account of such
factual situations?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Because then ... it is more like profanity,
irreverence and libelous.
Can one not write a fictional story based on a corrupt
but highly popular politician? Can one not write a
fictional story based on some malpractice or fraud
committed by a famous hospital? Can one write a
factual account of these things?

Or what you are saying applies only to things of a
sexual nature, or of a religious/Catholic
Church-related nature?

Cheers,

Santosh
jose colaco
2005-02-26 03:48:52 UTC
Permalink
From: "Gilbert Lawrence" <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
<The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing in
South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the 'process
of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was not a word on
the facts and statistics.>

Dear Gilbert,

May I ask which book/website by "De Mello" you refer to ?

Mercifully (I say) that De Mello has NOT been witness to the Inquisition.

I am also interested in one more viewpoint from you: Are you proLife or
proDeath penalty ?

The more I read your words, the more I believe they sound like the
SaffroNuts who want us to believe that SATI was purely voluntary

good wishes

jc

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-20 10:21:55 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.

As you are aware there have been heightened attacks on the Christians in
some parts of the country in the last few months. And given the communal
situation in the country, portrayal of such sensitive themes don't augur
well as there could be a communal fall out as a consequence.

It is quite obvious from the refusal of TV channels to telecast the
promos,
that the Director is hell bent on raising the communal heat by
screening this movie. We therefore earnestly, urge the Director to
withdraw this movie from a telecast
Frederick Noronha(FN)
2005-02-20 14:15:03 UTC
Permalink
With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

Frederick Noronha
Saligao-Goa
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.
I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards
Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT
Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.
This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.
jose colaco
2005-02-20 16:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,

With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS].

I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.

The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.

For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS. Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.

Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS

Perhaps to emphasize the point that SEX is sinful, and that the only people
who are having Sex are the priests and videshis.

Talking about that ..... WHY on earth are priests not allowed to have sexual
relationships ?


Now.....here are new topics for Mr. Vinod Pande and the Saffron Righties

1. Sex and the Devadasis
2. Manu and Sex
3. The non-existence of homosexuality in India
4. the "asexual" Sadhus of India
5. Rape....the art of pleasing young Bihari and foreign(white) women
6. Prostitution among Indian College girls - a 'fictional' story


And new topics for Krischen Righties

1. Food and health care for poor children - a science-fiction story
2. Abuse - is good for you
3. Silence is Golden - See no evil, Sweep the evil (under the carpet) - Evil
ain't happening

good wishes
jc

attachments:

1. Sandeep on vesana.com : Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a
forbidden territory eh?

2. Righties about the film FIRE : The film insults centuries of Hindu
tradition

3. Fred Noronha : Where does sensitive film-making end and censorship begin

4. Gilbert Lawrence : Don't censor ....only (?) block !

5. AICU & BCS : Withdraw movie


(1)
Sandeep wrote http://sandeep.vesana.com/

So there! Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a forbidden territory eh? But
of course. The public doesn't need to know the lurid details of a person who
takes vows of celibacy and later indulges in some hanky panky in what is
generally the teenagers' domain: the car.

Moreover, as Pande says, this film is based on a true-life incident. And
that perhaps angers the Church more than anything. Bitter truth told on
celluloid. What did the Church expect? That Pande take "permission" to make
the movie? This again reminds me of the all-powerful Medieval Church that
mandated what writers could (or could not) write, or what artists could (or
could not) paint. Hypothetically, if Pande had approached the Church for
"permission," what were his chances of securing it?

===

(2)

Deepa Mehta's Fire 1998
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/fire.html


In early 1998, Canadian director Deepa Mehta receives a death threat after
the first Indian screening of her film, Fire. The movie portrays an evolving
lesbian relationship between two Delhi sisters-in-law who are each trapped
in joyless marriages. Mehta spends the next year under 24-hour police
protection, while in North America and Europe

Fire.....attracts violent protest from members of a fundamentalist Hindu
party, Shiv Sena. Mobs of protesters storm cinemas in Bombay and Delhi,
smashing windows and threatening theater managers. They claim the film
insults centuries of Hindu tradition and is a direct attack on the
institution of marriage.

==

(3)

Fred Noronha wrote

With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

===
(4)


Gilbert Lawrence wrote

GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are in
the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod Pande.
Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any immunity in
doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In fact for a minimum
we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart though they may consider
themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators play a
role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes nothing more
than a sensational tabloid.

===

(5)

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'

The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize the
so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments
of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line
between pornography, truth and fiction.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-20 22:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a
sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other
posts.
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to
a fictional film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly
stated to be so, would be censorship. But people have
a right to protest against it.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sachin Phadte
2005-02-21 06:00:42 UTC
Permalink
One of the objections to the film has been that in the present tense
communal atmosphere in India, the movie could be used for increasing
attacks on Christians. I do not know if this is valid, but will stand
corrected on this issue.

Fred is right when he says: "I'm not sure where the line between sensitive
film-making ends and censorship in the name of religion begins." It is a
tricky issue. However, we shoud recognise that the organisations/persons
who are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.

I am a little intrigued about the introduction of the name of
Shankaracharya of Puri in this thread. Can Fred elucidate more on it?

Sachin Phadte.

_________________________________________________________________
Trailblazer Narain Karthikeyan. Know more about him ?n his life.
http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/tataracing/ Stay in the loop with Tata Racing!
Radhakrishnan Nair
2005-02-21 16:50:34 UTC
Permalink
(Sachin Phadte wrote: We shoud recognise that the organisations/persons who
are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.)

Oops, Sachin! It's Deepa Mehta, not Mira Nair. The latter is a
non-controversial celebrity. It was Deepa Mehta who raised a storm in a tea
cup with her humbug triology, 'Earth', 'Water', and the pretentious kitsch
'Fire'.

Regards, RKN

_________________________________________________________________
Manage information better. Optimise your tasks.
http://www.microsoft.com/india/office/experience/ Experience MS Office
System.
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-24 01:33:02 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
I agree with you about creating a controversy and the added publicity.
It's like me creating the controversy about 'church bashing' and
dragging the thread out even longer.
But if no one stands-up, then the silence suggest consent, agreement,
accord, endorsement. That is why I suggested that the moderators /
administrators of the Goa mailing list take a stand on the trash - even
if it's fictional and from their friends. For the same reason, I support
the action of All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic
Sabha [BCS].
Response to the other posts to follow.
Regards

jose colaco
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,
With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with
you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha
[BCS].
I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF
THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.
The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.
For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into
providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom
may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS.
Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.
Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took
their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-26 02:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,
I think you make a good point. And thank you!
But! Soon the word fiction is lost and / or forgotten.
And it (fiction) becomes the perception and soon the reality!
This is the evolution on the brutality (not history) of Goa's
inquisition.
The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing
in South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the
'process of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was
not a word on the facts and statistics.

If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional situation.
One does not have to select a living / existing individual or
institution.
Because then ... it is more like profanity, irreverence and libelous.
If not libel, perhaps you or some one else can explain to us why not?

Freedom of Speech is great! But just because one can say anything
doesn't mean one should.
Regards. GL

Santosh Helekar:
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to a fictional
film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly stated to be so,
would be censorship. But people have a right to protest against it.
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid.
I noticed the ire generated about wrong information on Thalassemia
and other posts.
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-26 03:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional
situation. One does not have to select a living/
existing individual or institution.
Gilbert,

I am not sure I understand you. Are you saying that
one should not write fiction based on factual
situations affecting an individual who is presently
alive or an institution that is presently in
existence? Can one write a factual account of such
factual situations?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Because then ... it is more like profanity,
irreverence and libelous.
Can one not write a fictional story based on a corrupt
but highly popular politician? Can one not write a
fictional story based on some malpractice or fraud
committed by a famous hospital? Can one write a
factual account of these things?

Or what you are saying applies only to things of a
sexual nature, or of a religious/Catholic
Church-related nature?

Cheers,

Santosh
jose colaco
2005-02-26 03:48:52 UTC
Permalink
From: "Gilbert Lawrence" <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
<The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing in
South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the 'process
of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was not a word on
the facts and statistics.>

Dear Gilbert,

May I ask which book/website by "De Mello" you refer to ?

Mercifully (I say) that De Mello has NOT been witness to the Inquisition.

I am also interested in one more viewpoint from you: Are you proLife or
proDeath penalty ?

The more I read your words, the more I believe they sound like the
SaffroNuts who want us to believe that SATI was purely voluntary

good wishes

jc

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-20 10:21:55 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.

As you are aware there have been heightened attacks on the Christians in
some parts of the country in the last few months. And given the communal
situation in the country, portrayal of such sensitive themes don't augur
well as there could be a communal fall out as a consequence.

It is quite obvious from the refusal of TV channels to telecast the
promos,
that the Director is hell bent on raising the communal heat by
screening this movie. We therefore earnestly, urge the Director to
withdraw this movie from a telecast
Frederick Noronha(FN)
2005-02-20 14:15:03 UTC
Permalink
With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

Frederick Noronha
Saligao-Goa
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.
I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards
Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT
Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.
This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.
jose colaco
2005-02-20 16:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,

With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS].

I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.

The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.

For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS. Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.

Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS

Perhaps to emphasize the point that SEX is sinful, and that the only people
who are having Sex are the priests and videshis.

Talking about that ..... WHY on earth are priests not allowed to have sexual
relationships ?


Now.....here are new topics for Mr. Vinod Pande and the Saffron Righties

1. Sex and the Devadasis
2. Manu and Sex
3. The non-existence of homosexuality in India
4. the "asexual" Sadhus of India
5. Rape....the art of pleasing young Bihari and foreign(white) women
6. Prostitution among Indian College girls - a 'fictional' story


And new topics for Krischen Righties

1. Food and health care for poor children - a science-fiction story
2. Abuse - is good for you
3. Silence is Golden - See no evil, Sweep the evil (under the carpet) - Evil
ain't happening

good wishes
jc

attachments:

1. Sandeep on vesana.com : Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a
forbidden territory eh?

2. Righties about the film FIRE : The film insults centuries of Hindu
tradition

3. Fred Noronha : Where does sensitive film-making end and censorship begin

4. Gilbert Lawrence : Don't censor ....only (?) block !

5. AICU & BCS : Withdraw movie


(1)
Sandeep wrote http://sandeep.vesana.com/

So there! Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a forbidden territory eh? But
of course. The public doesn't need to know the lurid details of a person who
takes vows of celibacy and later indulges in some hanky panky in what is
generally the teenagers' domain: the car.

Moreover, as Pande says, this film is based on a true-life incident. And
that perhaps angers the Church more than anything. Bitter truth told on
celluloid. What did the Church expect? That Pande take "permission" to make
the movie? This again reminds me of the all-powerful Medieval Church that
mandated what writers could (or could not) write, or what artists could (or
could not) paint. Hypothetically, if Pande had approached the Church for
"permission," what were his chances of securing it?

===

(2)

Deepa Mehta's Fire 1998
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/fire.html


In early 1998, Canadian director Deepa Mehta receives a death threat after
the first Indian screening of her film, Fire. The movie portrays an evolving
lesbian relationship between two Delhi sisters-in-law who are each trapped
in joyless marriages. Mehta spends the next year under 24-hour police
protection, while in North America and Europe

Fire.....attracts violent protest from members of a fundamentalist Hindu
party, Shiv Sena. Mobs of protesters storm cinemas in Bombay and Delhi,
smashing windows and threatening theater managers. They claim the film
insults centuries of Hindu tradition and is a direct attack on the
institution of marriage.

==

(3)

Fred Noronha wrote

With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

===
(4)


Gilbert Lawrence wrote

GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are in
the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod Pande.
Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any immunity in
doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In fact for a minimum
we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart though they may consider
themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators play a
role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes nothing more
than a sensational tabloid.

===

(5)

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'

The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize the
so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments
of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line
between pornography, truth and fiction.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-20 22:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a
sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other
posts.
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to
a fictional film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly
stated to be so, would be censorship. But people have
a right to protest against it.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sachin Phadte
2005-02-21 06:00:42 UTC
Permalink
One of the objections to the film has been that in the present tense
communal atmosphere in India, the movie could be used for increasing
attacks on Christians. I do not know if this is valid, but will stand
corrected on this issue.

Fred is right when he says: "I'm not sure where the line between sensitive
film-making ends and censorship in the name of religion begins." It is a
tricky issue. However, we shoud recognise that the organisations/persons
who are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.

I am a little intrigued about the introduction of the name of
Shankaracharya of Puri in this thread. Can Fred elucidate more on it?

Sachin Phadte.

_________________________________________________________________
Trailblazer Narain Karthikeyan. Know more about him ?n his life.
http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/tataracing/ Stay in the loop with Tata Racing!
Radhakrishnan Nair
2005-02-21 16:50:34 UTC
Permalink
(Sachin Phadte wrote: We shoud recognise that the organisations/persons who
are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.)

Oops, Sachin! It's Deepa Mehta, not Mira Nair. The latter is a
non-controversial celebrity. It was Deepa Mehta who raised a storm in a tea
cup with her humbug triology, 'Earth', 'Water', and the pretentious kitsch
'Fire'.

Regards, RKN

_________________________________________________________________
Manage information better. Optimise your tasks.
http://www.microsoft.com/india/office/experience/ Experience MS Office
System.
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-24 01:33:02 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
I agree with you about creating a controversy and the added publicity.
It's like me creating the controversy about 'church bashing' and
dragging the thread out even longer.
But if no one stands-up, then the silence suggest consent, agreement,
accord, endorsement. That is why I suggested that the moderators /
administrators of the Goa mailing list take a stand on the trash - even
if it's fictional and from their friends. For the same reason, I support
the action of All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic
Sabha [BCS].
Response to the other posts to follow.
Regards

jose colaco
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,
With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with
you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha
[BCS].
I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF
THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.
The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.
For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into
providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom
may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS.
Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.
Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took
their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-26 02:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,
I think you make a good point. And thank you!
But! Soon the word fiction is lost and / or forgotten.
And it (fiction) becomes the perception and soon the reality!
This is the evolution on the brutality (not history) of Goa's
inquisition.
The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing
in South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the
'process of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was
not a word on the facts and statistics.

If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional situation.
One does not have to select a living / existing individual or
institution.
Because then ... it is more like profanity, irreverence and libelous.
If not libel, perhaps you or some one else can explain to us why not?

Freedom of Speech is great! But just because one can say anything
doesn't mean one should.
Regards. GL

Santosh Helekar:
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to a fictional
film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly stated to be so,
would be censorship. But people have a right to protest against it.
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid.
I noticed the ire generated about wrong information on Thalassemia
and other posts.
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-26 03:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional
situation. One does not have to select a living/
existing individual or institution.
Gilbert,

I am not sure I understand you. Are you saying that
one should not write fiction based on factual
situations affecting an individual who is presently
alive or an institution that is presently in
existence? Can one write a factual account of such
factual situations?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Because then ... it is more like profanity,
irreverence and libelous.
Can one not write a fictional story based on a corrupt
but highly popular politician? Can one not write a
fictional story based on some malpractice or fraud
committed by a famous hospital? Can one write a
factual account of these things?

Or what you are saying applies only to things of a
sexual nature, or of a religious/Catholic
Church-related nature?

Cheers,

Santosh
jose colaco
2005-02-26 03:48:52 UTC
Permalink
From: "Gilbert Lawrence" <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
<The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing in
South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the 'process
of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was not a word on
the facts and statistics.>

Dear Gilbert,

May I ask which book/website by "De Mello" you refer to ?

Mercifully (I say) that De Mello has NOT been witness to the Inquisition.

I am also interested in one more viewpoint from you: Are you proLife or
proDeath penalty ?

The more I read your words, the more I believe they sound like the
SaffroNuts who want us to believe that SATI was purely voluntary

good wishes

jc

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-20 10:21:55 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.

As you are aware there have been heightened attacks on the Christians in
some parts of the country in the last few months. And given the communal
situation in the country, portrayal of such sensitive themes don't augur
well as there could be a communal fall out as a consequence.

It is quite obvious from the refusal of TV channels to telecast the
promos,
that the Director is hell bent on raising the communal heat by
screening this movie. We therefore earnestly, urge the Director to
withdraw this movie from a telecast
Frederick Noronha(FN)
2005-02-20 14:15:03 UTC
Permalink
With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

Frederick Noronha
Saligao-Goa
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.
I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards
Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT
Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.
This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.
jose colaco
2005-02-20 16:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,

With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS].

I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.

The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.

For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS. Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.

Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS

Perhaps to emphasize the point that SEX is sinful, and that the only people
who are having Sex are the priests and videshis.

Talking about that ..... WHY on earth are priests not allowed to have sexual
relationships ?


Now.....here are new topics for Mr. Vinod Pande and the Saffron Righties

1. Sex and the Devadasis
2. Manu and Sex
3. The non-existence of homosexuality in India
4. the "asexual" Sadhus of India
5. Rape....the art of pleasing young Bihari and foreign(white) women
6. Prostitution among Indian College girls - a 'fictional' story


And new topics for Krischen Righties

1. Food and health care for poor children - a science-fiction story
2. Abuse - is good for you
3. Silence is Golden - See no evil, Sweep the evil (under the carpet) - Evil
ain't happening

good wishes
jc

attachments:

1. Sandeep on vesana.com : Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a
forbidden territory eh?

2. Righties about the film FIRE : The film insults centuries of Hindu
tradition

3. Fred Noronha : Where does sensitive film-making end and censorship begin

4. Gilbert Lawrence : Don't censor ....only (?) block !

5. AICU & BCS : Withdraw movie


(1)
Sandeep wrote http://sandeep.vesana.com/

So there! Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a forbidden territory eh? But
of course. The public doesn't need to know the lurid details of a person who
takes vows of celibacy and later indulges in some hanky panky in what is
generally the teenagers' domain: the car.

Moreover, as Pande says, this film is based on a true-life incident. And
that perhaps angers the Church more than anything. Bitter truth told on
celluloid. What did the Church expect? That Pande take "permission" to make
the movie? This again reminds me of the all-powerful Medieval Church that
mandated what writers could (or could not) write, or what artists could (or
could not) paint. Hypothetically, if Pande had approached the Church for
"permission," what were his chances of securing it?

===

(2)

Deepa Mehta's Fire 1998
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/fire.html


In early 1998, Canadian director Deepa Mehta receives a death threat after
the first Indian screening of her film, Fire. The movie portrays an evolving
lesbian relationship between two Delhi sisters-in-law who are each trapped
in joyless marriages. Mehta spends the next year under 24-hour police
protection, while in North America and Europe

Fire.....attracts violent protest from members of a fundamentalist Hindu
party, Shiv Sena. Mobs of protesters storm cinemas in Bombay and Delhi,
smashing windows and threatening theater managers. They claim the film
insults centuries of Hindu tradition and is a direct attack on the
institution of marriage.

==

(3)

Fred Noronha wrote

With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

===
(4)


Gilbert Lawrence wrote

GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are in
the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod Pande.
Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any immunity in
doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In fact for a minimum
we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart though they may consider
themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators play a
role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes nothing more
than a sensational tabloid.

===

(5)

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'

The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize the
so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments
of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line
between pornography, truth and fiction.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-20 22:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a
sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other
posts.
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to
a fictional film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly
stated to be so, would be censorship. But people have
a right to protest against it.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sachin Phadte
2005-02-21 06:00:42 UTC
Permalink
One of the objections to the film has been that in the present tense
communal atmosphere in India, the movie could be used for increasing
attacks on Christians. I do not know if this is valid, but will stand
corrected on this issue.

Fred is right when he says: "I'm not sure where the line between sensitive
film-making ends and censorship in the name of religion begins." It is a
tricky issue. However, we shoud recognise that the organisations/persons
who are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.

I am a little intrigued about the introduction of the name of
Shankaracharya of Puri in this thread. Can Fred elucidate more on it?

Sachin Phadte.

_________________________________________________________________
Trailblazer Narain Karthikeyan. Know more about him ?n his life.
http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/tataracing/ Stay in the loop with Tata Racing!
Radhakrishnan Nair
2005-02-21 16:50:34 UTC
Permalink
(Sachin Phadte wrote: We shoud recognise that the organisations/persons who
are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.)

Oops, Sachin! It's Deepa Mehta, not Mira Nair. The latter is a
non-controversial celebrity. It was Deepa Mehta who raised a storm in a tea
cup with her humbug triology, 'Earth', 'Water', and the pretentious kitsch
'Fire'.

Regards, RKN

_________________________________________________________________
Manage information better. Optimise your tasks.
http://www.microsoft.com/india/office/experience/ Experience MS Office
System.
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-24 01:33:02 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
I agree with you about creating a controversy and the added publicity.
It's like me creating the controversy about 'church bashing' and
dragging the thread out even longer.
But if no one stands-up, then the silence suggest consent, agreement,
accord, endorsement. That is why I suggested that the moderators /
administrators of the Goa mailing list take a stand on the trash - even
if it's fictional and from their friends. For the same reason, I support
the action of All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic
Sabha [BCS].
Response to the other posts to follow.
Regards

jose colaco
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,
With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with
you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha
[BCS].
I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF
THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.
The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.
For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into
providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom
may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS.
Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.
Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took
their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-26 02:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,
I think you make a good point. And thank you!
But! Soon the word fiction is lost and / or forgotten.
And it (fiction) becomes the perception and soon the reality!
This is the evolution on the brutality (not history) of Goa's
inquisition.
The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing
in South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the
'process of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was
not a word on the facts and statistics.

If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional situation.
One does not have to select a living / existing individual or
institution.
Because then ... it is more like profanity, irreverence and libelous.
If not libel, perhaps you or some one else can explain to us why not?

Freedom of Speech is great! But just because one can say anything
doesn't mean one should.
Regards. GL

Santosh Helekar:
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to a fictional
film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly stated to be so,
would be censorship. But people have a right to protest against it.
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid.
I noticed the ire generated about wrong information on Thalassemia
and other posts.
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-26 03:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional
situation. One does not have to select a living/
existing individual or institution.
Gilbert,

I am not sure I understand you. Are you saying that
one should not write fiction based on factual
situations affecting an individual who is presently
alive or an institution that is presently in
existence? Can one write a factual account of such
factual situations?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Because then ... it is more like profanity,
irreverence and libelous.
Can one not write a fictional story based on a corrupt
but highly popular politician? Can one not write a
fictional story based on some malpractice or fraud
committed by a famous hospital? Can one write a
factual account of these things?

Or what you are saying applies only to things of a
sexual nature, or of a religious/Catholic
Church-related nature?

Cheers,

Santosh
jose colaco
2005-02-26 03:48:52 UTC
Permalink
From: "Gilbert Lawrence" <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
<The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing in
South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the 'process
of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was not a word on
the facts and statistics.>

Dear Gilbert,

May I ask which book/website by "De Mello" you refer to ?

Mercifully (I say) that De Mello has NOT been witness to the Inquisition.

I am also interested in one more viewpoint from you: Are you proLife or
proDeath penalty ?

The more I read your words, the more I believe they sound like the
SaffroNuts who want us to believe that SATI was purely voluntary

good wishes

jc

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-20 10:21:55 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.

As you are aware there have been heightened attacks on the Christians in
some parts of the country in the last few months. And given the communal
situation in the country, portrayal of such sensitive themes don't augur
well as there could be a communal fall out as a consequence.

It is quite obvious from the refusal of TV channels to telecast the
promos,
that the Director is hell bent on raising the communal heat by
screening this movie. We therefore earnestly, urge the Director to
withdraw this movie from a telecast
Frederick Noronha(FN)
2005-02-20 14:15:03 UTC
Permalink
With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

Frederick Noronha
Saligao-Goa
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.
I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards
Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT
Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.
This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.
jose colaco
2005-02-20 16:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,

With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS].

I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.

The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.

For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS. Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.

Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS

Perhaps to emphasize the point that SEX is sinful, and that the only people
who are having Sex are the priests and videshis.

Talking about that ..... WHY on earth are priests not allowed to have sexual
relationships ?


Now.....here are new topics for Mr. Vinod Pande and the Saffron Righties

1. Sex and the Devadasis
2. Manu and Sex
3. The non-existence of homosexuality in India
4. the "asexual" Sadhus of India
5. Rape....the art of pleasing young Bihari and foreign(white) women
6. Prostitution among Indian College girls - a 'fictional' story


And new topics for Krischen Righties

1. Food and health care for poor children - a science-fiction story
2. Abuse - is good for you
3. Silence is Golden - See no evil, Sweep the evil (under the carpet) - Evil
ain't happening

good wishes
jc

attachments:

1. Sandeep on vesana.com : Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a
forbidden territory eh?

2. Righties about the film FIRE : The film insults centuries of Hindu
tradition

3. Fred Noronha : Where does sensitive film-making end and censorship begin

4. Gilbert Lawrence : Don't censor ....only (?) block !

5. AICU & BCS : Withdraw movie


(1)
Sandeep wrote http://sandeep.vesana.com/

So there! Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a forbidden territory eh? But
of course. The public doesn't need to know the lurid details of a person who
takes vows of celibacy and later indulges in some hanky panky in what is
generally the teenagers' domain: the car.

Moreover, as Pande says, this film is based on a true-life incident. And
that perhaps angers the Church more than anything. Bitter truth told on
celluloid. What did the Church expect? That Pande take "permission" to make
the movie? This again reminds me of the all-powerful Medieval Church that
mandated what writers could (or could not) write, or what artists could (or
could not) paint. Hypothetically, if Pande had approached the Church for
"permission," what were his chances of securing it?

===

(2)

Deepa Mehta's Fire 1998
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/fire.html


In early 1998, Canadian director Deepa Mehta receives a death threat after
the first Indian screening of her film, Fire. The movie portrays an evolving
lesbian relationship between two Delhi sisters-in-law who are each trapped
in joyless marriages. Mehta spends the next year under 24-hour police
protection, while in North America and Europe

Fire.....attracts violent protest from members of a fundamentalist Hindu
party, Shiv Sena. Mobs of protesters storm cinemas in Bombay and Delhi,
smashing windows and threatening theater managers. They claim the film
insults centuries of Hindu tradition and is a direct attack on the
institution of marriage.

==

(3)

Fred Noronha wrote

With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

===
(4)


Gilbert Lawrence wrote

GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are in
the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod Pande.
Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any immunity in
doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In fact for a minimum
we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart though they may consider
themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators play a
role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes nothing more
than a sensational tabloid.

===

(5)

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'

The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize the
so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments
of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line
between pornography, truth and fiction.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-20 22:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a
sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other
posts.
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to
a fictional film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly
stated to be so, would be censorship. But people have
a right to protest against it.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sachin Phadte
2005-02-21 06:00:42 UTC
Permalink
One of the objections to the film has been that in the present tense
communal atmosphere in India, the movie could be used for increasing
attacks on Christians. I do not know if this is valid, but will stand
corrected on this issue.

Fred is right when he says: "I'm not sure where the line between sensitive
film-making ends and censorship in the name of religion begins." It is a
tricky issue. However, we shoud recognise that the organisations/persons
who are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.

I am a little intrigued about the introduction of the name of
Shankaracharya of Puri in this thread. Can Fred elucidate more on it?

Sachin Phadte.

_________________________________________________________________
Trailblazer Narain Karthikeyan. Know more about him ?n his life.
http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/tataracing/ Stay in the loop with Tata Racing!
Radhakrishnan Nair
2005-02-21 16:50:34 UTC
Permalink
(Sachin Phadte wrote: We shoud recognise that the organisations/persons who
are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.)

Oops, Sachin! It's Deepa Mehta, not Mira Nair. The latter is a
non-controversial celebrity. It was Deepa Mehta who raised a storm in a tea
cup with her humbug triology, 'Earth', 'Water', and the pretentious kitsch
'Fire'.

Regards, RKN

_________________________________________________________________
Manage information better. Optimise your tasks.
http://www.microsoft.com/india/office/experience/ Experience MS Office
System.
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-24 01:33:02 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
I agree with you about creating a controversy and the added publicity.
It's like me creating the controversy about 'church bashing' and
dragging the thread out even longer.
But if no one stands-up, then the silence suggest consent, agreement,
accord, endorsement. That is why I suggested that the moderators /
administrators of the Goa mailing list take a stand on the trash - even
if it's fictional and from their friends. For the same reason, I support
the action of All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic
Sabha [BCS].
Response to the other posts to follow.
Regards

jose colaco
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,
With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with
you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha
[BCS].
I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF
THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.
The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.
For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into
providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom
may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS.
Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.
Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took
their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-26 02:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,
I think you make a good point. And thank you!
But! Soon the word fiction is lost and / or forgotten.
And it (fiction) becomes the perception and soon the reality!
This is the evolution on the brutality (not history) of Goa's
inquisition.
The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing
in South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the
'process of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was
not a word on the facts and statistics.

If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional situation.
One does not have to select a living / existing individual or
institution.
Because then ... it is more like profanity, irreverence and libelous.
If not libel, perhaps you or some one else can explain to us why not?

Freedom of Speech is great! But just because one can say anything
doesn't mean one should.
Regards. GL

Santosh Helekar:
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to a fictional
film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly stated to be so,
would be censorship. But people have a right to protest against it.
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid.
I noticed the ire generated about wrong information on Thalassemia
and other posts.
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-26 03:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional
situation. One does not have to select a living/
existing individual or institution.
Gilbert,

I am not sure I understand you. Are you saying that
one should not write fiction based on factual
situations affecting an individual who is presently
alive or an institution that is presently in
existence? Can one write a factual account of such
factual situations?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Because then ... it is more like profanity,
irreverence and libelous.
Can one not write a fictional story based on a corrupt
but highly popular politician? Can one not write a
fictional story based on some malpractice or fraud
committed by a famous hospital? Can one write a
factual account of these things?

Or what you are saying applies only to things of a
sexual nature, or of a religious/Catholic
Church-related nature?

Cheers,

Santosh
jose colaco
2005-02-26 03:48:52 UTC
Permalink
From: "Gilbert Lawrence" <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
<The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing in
South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the 'process
of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was not a word on
the facts and statistics.>

Dear Gilbert,

May I ask which book/website by "De Mello" you refer to ?

Mercifully (I say) that De Mello has NOT been witness to the Inquisition.

I am also interested in one more viewpoint from you: Are you proLife or
proDeath penalty ?

The more I read your words, the more I believe they sound like the
SaffroNuts who want us to believe that SATI was purely voluntary

good wishes

jc

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-20 10:21:55 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.

As you are aware there have been heightened attacks on the Christians in
some parts of the country in the last few months. And given the communal
situation in the country, portrayal of such sensitive themes don't augur
well as there could be a communal fall out as a consequence.

It is quite obvious from the refusal of TV channels to telecast the
promos,
that the Director is hell bent on raising the communal heat by
screening this movie. We therefore earnestly, urge the Director to
withdraw this movie from a telecast
Frederick Noronha(FN)
2005-02-20 14:15:03 UTC
Permalink
With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

Frederick Noronha
Saligao-Goa
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.
I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards
Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT
Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.
This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.
jose colaco
2005-02-20 16:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,

With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS].

I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.

The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.

For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS. Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.

Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS

Perhaps to emphasize the point that SEX is sinful, and that the only people
who are having Sex are the priests and videshis.

Talking about that ..... WHY on earth are priests not allowed to have sexual
relationships ?


Now.....here are new topics for Mr. Vinod Pande and the Saffron Righties

1. Sex and the Devadasis
2. Manu and Sex
3. The non-existence of homosexuality in India
4. the "asexual" Sadhus of India
5. Rape....the art of pleasing young Bihari and foreign(white) women
6. Prostitution among Indian College girls - a 'fictional' story


And new topics for Krischen Righties

1. Food and health care for poor children - a science-fiction story
2. Abuse - is good for you
3. Silence is Golden - See no evil, Sweep the evil (under the carpet) - Evil
ain't happening

good wishes
jc

attachments:

1. Sandeep on vesana.com : Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a
forbidden territory eh?

2. Righties about the film FIRE : The film insults centuries of Hindu
tradition

3. Fred Noronha : Where does sensitive film-making end and censorship begin

4. Gilbert Lawrence : Don't censor ....only (?) block !

5. AICU & BCS : Withdraw movie


(1)
Sandeep wrote http://sandeep.vesana.com/

So there! Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a forbidden territory eh? But
of course. The public doesn't need to know the lurid details of a person who
takes vows of celibacy and later indulges in some hanky panky in what is
generally the teenagers' domain: the car.

Moreover, as Pande says, this film is based on a true-life incident. And
that perhaps angers the Church more than anything. Bitter truth told on
celluloid. What did the Church expect? That Pande take "permission" to make
the movie? This again reminds me of the all-powerful Medieval Church that
mandated what writers could (or could not) write, or what artists could (or
could not) paint. Hypothetically, if Pande had approached the Church for
"permission," what were his chances of securing it?

===

(2)

Deepa Mehta's Fire 1998
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/fire.html


In early 1998, Canadian director Deepa Mehta receives a death threat after
the first Indian screening of her film, Fire. The movie portrays an evolving
lesbian relationship between two Delhi sisters-in-law who are each trapped
in joyless marriages. Mehta spends the next year under 24-hour police
protection, while in North America and Europe

Fire.....attracts violent protest from members of a fundamentalist Hindu
party, Shiv Sena. Mobs of protesters storm cinemas in Bombay and Delhi,
smashing windows and threatening theater managers. They claim the film
insults centuries of Hindu tradition and is a direct attack on the
institution of marriage.

==

(3)

Fred Noronha wrote

With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

===
(4)


Gilbert Lawrence wrote

GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are in
the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod Pande.
Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any immunity in
doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In fact for a minimum
we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart though they may consider
themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators play a
role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes nothing more
than a sensational tabloid.

===

(5)

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'

The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize the
so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments
of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line
between pornography, truth and fiction.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-20 22:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a
sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other
posts.
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to
a fictional film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly
stated to be so, would be censorship. But people have
a right to protest against it.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sachin Phadte
2005-02-21 06:00:42 UTC
Permalink
One of the objections to the film has been that in the present tense
communal atmosphere in India, the movie could be used for increasing
attacks on Christians. I do not know if this is valid, but will stand
corrected on this issue.

Fred is right when he says: "I'm not sure where the line between sensitive
film-making ends and censorship in the name of religion begins." It is a
tricky issue. However, we shoud recognise that the organisations/persons
who are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.

I am a little intrigued about the introduction of the name of
Shankaracharya of Puri in this thread. Can Fred elucidate more on it?

Sachin Phadte.

_________________________________________________________________
Trailblazer Narain Karthikeyan. Know more about him ?n his life.
http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/tataracing/ Stay in the loop with Tata Racing!
Radhakrishnan Nair
2005-02-21 16:50:34 UTC
Permalink
(Sachin Phadte wrote: We shoud recognise that the organisations/persons who
are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.)

Oops, Sachin! It's Deepa Mehta, not Mira Nair. The latter is a
non-controversial celebrity. It was Deepa Mehta who raised a storm in a tea
cup with her humbug triology, 'Earth', 'Water', and the pretentious kitsch
'Fire'.

Regards, RKN

_________________________________________________________________
Manage information better. Optimise your tasks.
http://www.microsoft.com/india/office/experience/ Experience MS Office
System.
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-24 01:33:02 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
I agree with you about creating a controversy and the added publicity.
It's like me creating the controversy about 'church bashing' and
dragging the thread out even longer.
But if no one stands-up, then the silence suggest consent, agreement,
accord, endorsement. That is why I suggested that the moderators /
administrators of the Goa mailing list take a stand on the trash - even
if it's fictional and from their friends. For the same reason, I support
the action of All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic
Sabha [BCS].
Response to the other posts to follow.
Regards

jose colaco
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,
With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with
you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha
[BCS].
I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF
THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.
The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.
For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into
providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom
may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS.
Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.
Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took
their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-26 02:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,
I think you make a good point. And thank you!
But! Soon the word fiction is lost and / or forgotten.
And it (fiction) becomes the perception and soon the reality!
This is the evolution on the brutality (not history) of Goa's
inquisition.
The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing
in South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the
'process of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was
not a word on the facts and statistics.

If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional situation.
One does not have to select a living / existing individual or
institution.
Because then ... it is more like profanity, irreverence and libelous.
If not libel, perhaps you or some one else can explain to us why not?

Freedom of Speech is great! But just because one can say anything
doesn't mean one should.
Regards. GL

Santosh Helekar:
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to a fictional
film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly stated to be so,
would be censorship. But people have a right to protest against it.
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid.
I noticed the ire generated about wrong information on Thalassemia
and other posts.
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-26 03:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional
situation. One does not have to select a living/
existing individual or institution.
Gilbert,

I am not sure I understand you. Are you saying that
one should not write fiction based on factual
situations affecting an individual who is presently
alive or an institution that is presently in
existence? Can one write a factual account of such
factual situations?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Because then ... it is more like profanity,
irreverence and libelous.
Can one not write a fictional story based on a corrupt
but highly popular politician? Can one not write a
fictional story based on some malpractice or fraud
committed by a famous hospital? Can one write a
factual account of these things?

Or what you are saying applies only to things of a
sexual nature, or of a religious/Catholic
Church-related nature?

Cheers,

Santosh
jose colaco
2005-02-26 03:48:52 UTC
Permalink
From: "Gilbert Lawrence" <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
<The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing in
South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the 'process
of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was not a word on
the facts and statistics.>

Dear Gilbert,

May I ask which book/website by "De Mello" you refer to ?

Mercifully (I say) that De Mello has NOT been witness to the Inquisition.

I am also interested in one more viewpoint from you: Are you proLife or
proDeath penalty ?

The more I read your words, the more I believe they sound like the
SaffroNuts who want us to believe that SATI was purely voluntary

good wishes

jc

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-20 10:21:55 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.

As you are aware there have been heightened attacks on the Christians in
some parts of the country in the last few months. And given the communal
situation in the country, portrayal of such sensitive themes don't augur
well as there could be a communal fall out as a consequence.

It is quite obvious from the refusal of TV channels to telecast the
promos,
that the Director is hell bent on raising the communal heat by
screening this movie. We therefore earnestly, urge the Director to
withdraw this movie from a telecast
Frederick Noronha(FN)
2005-02-20 14:15:03 UTC
Permalink
With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

Frederick Noronha
Saligao-Goa
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are
in the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod
Pande. Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any
immunity in doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In
fact for a minimum we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart
though they may consider themselves to be) to a higher standard.
I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators
play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes
nothing more than a sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other posts. The same should
apply to other issues.
Regards
Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
[Goanet]AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
PRESS STATEMENT
February18, 2005
The Editor PRESS STATEMENT
Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'
The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize
the so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.
This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the
sentiments of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine
dividing line between pornography, truth and fiction.
jose colaco
2005-02-20 16:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,

With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS].

I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.

The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.

For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS. Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.

Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS

Perhaps to emphasize the point that SEX is sinful, and that the only people
who are having Sex are the priests and videshis.

Talking about that ..... WHY on earth are priests not allowed to have sexual
relationships ?


Now.....here are new topics for Mr. Vinod Pande and the Saffron Righties

1. Sex and the Devadasis
2. Manu and Sex
3. The non-existence of homosexuality in India
4. the "asexual" Sadhus of India
5. Rape....the art of pleasing young Bihari and foreign(white) women
6. Prostitution among Indian College girls - a 'fictional' story


And new topics for Krischen Righties

1. Food and health care for poor children - a science-fiction story
2. Abuse - is good for you
3. Silence is Golden - See no evil, Sweep the evil (under the carpet) - Evil
ain't happening

good wishes
jc

attachments:

1. Sandeep on vesana.com : Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a
forbidden territory eh?

2. Righties about the film FIRE : The film insults centuries of Hindu
tradition

3. Fred Noronha : Where does sensitive film-making end and censorship begin

4. Gilbert Lawrence : Don't censor ....only (?) block !

5. AICU & BCS : Withdraw movie


(1)
Sandeep wrote http://sandeep.vesana.com/

So there! Sexual lives of Catholic priests is a forbidden territory eh? But
of course. The public doesn't need to know the lurid details of a person who
takes vows of celibacy and later indulges in some hanky panky in what is
generally the teenagers' domain: the car.

Moreover, as Pande says, this film is based on a true-life incident. And
that perhaps angers the Church more than anything. Bitter truth told on
celluloid. What did the Church expect? That Pande take "permission" to make
the movie? This again reminds me of the all-powerful Medieval Church that
mandated what writers could (or could not) write, or what artists could (or
could not) paint. Hypothetically, if Pande had approached the Church for
"permission," what were his chances of securing it?

===

(2)

Deepa Mehta's Fire 1998
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/fire.html


In early 1998, Canadian director Deepa Mehta receives a death threat after
the first Indian screening of her film, Fire. The movie portrays an evolving
lesbian relationship between two Delhi sisters-in-law who are each trapped
in joyless marriages. Mehta spends the next year under 24-hour police
protection, while in North America and Europe

Fire.....attracts violent protest from members of a fundamentalist Hindu
party, Shiv Sena. Mobs of protesters storm cinemas in Bombay and Delhi,
smashing windows and threatening theater managers. They claim the film
insults centuries of Hindu tradition and is a direct attack on the
institution of marriage.

==

(3)

Fred Noronha wrote

With regard to the protests against the movie 'Sins' what is the issue
about? Are we (i) saying priests, even if the exceptional ones, don't
indulge in such behaviour (ii) that the film is unacceptable because it is
criticism from the 'outside', i.e. it comes from someone who isn't a
Catholic or (iii) that such themes hurt the sentiments of a section of the
people, and hence should not be allowed?

How would be react is the religious of other religions (e.g. the
Sankaracharya of Puri, in real life) was similarly targeted?

I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends and
censorship in the name of religion begins. It would be nice to hear what
others feel about this issue. Your thoughts are welcome. FN

===
(4)


Gilbert Lawrence wrote

GL responds:
The following post could well be directed to several cyber Goans who are in
the habit of doing the same or something similar as Director Vinod Pande.
Just because these Goans are Catholics does not give them any immunity in
doing the same thing as Director Vinod Pande is doing. In fact for a minimum
we should be holding these Goan Catholics (smart though they may consider
themselves to be) to a higher standard.

I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa administrators play a
role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list becomes nothing more
than a sensational tabloid.

===

(5)

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at rediffmail.com>
PRESS STATEMENT

Re: AICU & BCS DEMANDS WITHDRAWAL OF THE MOVIE 'sins'

The All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha [BCS]
condemns the attempts made by the Director Vinod Pande to sensationalize the
so called fictional sexual escapades of a Priest.

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments
of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line
between pornography, truth and fiction.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-20 22:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a
sensational tabloid. I noticed the ire generated
about wrong information on Thalassemia and other
posts.
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to
a fictional film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly
stated to be so, would be censorship. But people have
a right to protest against it.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sachin Phadte
2005-02-21 06:00:42 UTC
Permalink
One of the objections to the film has been that in the present tense
communal atmosphere in India, the movie could be used for increasing
attacks on Christians. I do not know if this is valid, but will stand
corrected on this issue.

Fred is right when he says: "I'm not sure where the line between sensitive
film-making ends and censorship in the name of religion begins." It is a
tricky issue. However, we shoud recognise that the organisations/persons
who are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.

I am a little intrigued about the introduction of the name of
Shankaracharya of Puri in this thread. Can Fred elucidate more on it?

Sachin Phadte.

_________________________________________________________________
Trailblazer Narain Karthikeyan. Know more about him ?n his life.
http://server1.msn.co.in/sp04/tataracing/ Stay in the loop with Tata Racing!
Radhakrishnan Nair
2005-02-21 16:50:34 UTC
Permalink
(Sachin Phadte wrote: We shoud recognise that the organisations/persons who
are protesting about the film "Sin", had strongly criticised Hindu
organisations when the latter had protested the making of films like
"Water" by Mira Nair.)

Oops, Sachin! It's Deepa Mehta, not Mira Nair. The latter is a
non-controversial celebrity. It was Deepa Mehta who raised a storm in a tea
cup with her humbug triology, 'Earth', 'Water', and the pretentious kitsch
'Fire'.

Regards, RKN

_________________________________________________________________
Manage information better. Optimise your tasks.
http://www.microsoft.com/india/office/experience/ Experience MS Office
System.
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-24 01:33:02 UTC
Permalink
GL responds:
I agree with you about creating a controversy and the added publicity.
It's like me creating the controversy about 'church bashing' and
dragging the thread out even longer.
But if no one stands-up, then the silence suggest consent, agreement,
accord, endorsement. That is why I suggested that the moderators /
administrators of the Goa mailing list take a stand on the trash - even
if it's fictional and from their friends. For the same reason, I support
the action of All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic
Sabha [BCS].
Response to the other posts to follow.
Regards

jose colaco
Dear Gilbert Lawrencebab,
With reference to the film SINS by Vinod Pande, I beg to disagree with
you
and with All India Catholic Union [AICU] & The Bombay Catholic Sabha
[BCS].
I believe that with the demand by the AICU & BCS for the WITHDRAWAL OF
THE
MOVIE... 'SINS', the film has been given free publicity.
The type of publicity Deepa Mehta's FIRE and Mel Gibson's PASSION
received.
For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into
providing
FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of whom
may
have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see SINS.
Just
like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.
Just imagine - with all the violence in the film, the Righties took
their
kids to see the Passion. Now with all the "sex" in SINS, I can see the
saffron Righties taking their kids to see SINS
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-02-26 02:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,
I think you make a good point. And thank you!
But! Soon the word fiction is lost and / or forgotten.
And it (fiction) becomes the perception and soon the reality!
This is the evolution on the brutality (not history) of Goa's
inquisition.
The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing
in South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the
'process of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was
not a word on the facts and statistics.

If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional situation.
One does not have to select a living / existing individual or
institution.
Because then ... it is more like profanity, irreverence and libelous.
If not libel, perhaps you or some one else can explain to us why not?

Freedom of Speech is great! But just because one can say anything
doesn't mean one should.
Regards. GL

Santosh Helekar:
How is the wrong information on Thalassemia related to a fictional
film or allegations against individuals?

Any ban of a work of fiction, which is explicitly stated to be so,
would be censorship. But people have a right to protest against it.
Or the mailing list becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid.
I noticed the ire generated about wrong information on Thalassemia
and other posts.
Santosh Helekar
2005-02-26 03:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
If one wants to write fiction, choose a fictional
situation. One does not have to select a living/
existing individual or institution.
Gilbert,

I am not sure I understand you. Are you saying that
one should not write fiction based on factual
situations affecting an individual who is presently
alive or an institution that is presently in
existence? Can one write a factual account of such
factual situations?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Because then ... it is more like profanity,
irreverence and libelous.
Can one not write a fictional story based on a corrupt
but highly popular politician? Can one not write a
fictional story based on some malpractice or fraud
committed by a famous hospital? Can one write a
factual account of these things?

Or what you are saying applies only to things of a
sexual nature, or of a religious/Catholic
Church-related nature?

Cheers,

Santosh
jose colaco
2005-02-26 03:48:52 UTC
Permalink
From: "Gilbert Lawrence" <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
<The work of fiction on the brutality of Goa's inquisition likely started
with a well written fictional book or web-site by De Mello now residing in
South America. Beyond a very detailed, graphic description of the 'process
of Goa's inquisition' to which he was not a witness, there was not a word on
the facts and statistics.>

Dear Gilbert,

May I ask which book/website by "De Mello" you refer to ?

Mercifully (I say) that De Mello has NOT been witness to the Inquisition.

I am also interested in one more viewpoint from you: Are you proLife or
proDeath penalty ?

The more I read your words, the more I believe they sound like the
SaffroNuts who want us to believe that SATI was purely voluntary

good wishes

jc

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-02 03:15:55 UTC
Permalink
GL responds to Santosh:
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print and in movies a lot
of fictional material about blacks and Jews. No amount of responses,
civil protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred and the
violence - similar to India.

In the USA, this has stopped now! Because the civil right movement and
the Jewish lawyers went after these groups with libel law suits. They
went after not the perpetrators of the violence (the house-burners, the
lynchers, gun slingers etc.). They went after their civil leaders and
those that produced the fictional material and the movies. They won big
- money wise! That is why we do not see KKK in USA.

That appears to be the civilized way to stop invented story and crimes
based on hate and imaginary tales put out by those under 'freedom of
expression'. Pay for your expression with MONEY! Don't you love it? :=))

Can all those who hate the caste and religious violence in India join
and do/support something similar. Yes, RSS! They can be confronted - in
the court of law! Sooner or later they (leaders) will have to pay with
jail and / or money.
Regards, GL

Santosh:
That is a question to be asked of lawyers who specialize in libel
law. I do not know how to answer it. But I think any professional
fiction writer can seek legal help before publishing his/her
fictional stories to ensure that they are not subject to litigation
under libel law.

Gilbert Lawrence wrote:
Hi Santosh,
But you did not answer my honest question.
Where does fiction end and libel begin?
Santosh Helekar
2005-03-02 04:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print
and in movies a lot of fictional material about
blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil
protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred
and the violence - similar to India.
Gilbert,

To what part of my post are you responding? Are you
comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are
writers who base their fiction on factual situations
concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
That is why we do not see KKK in USA.
My perception is different from yours. I hear of KKK
rallies being held in many towns in the U.S. quite
regularly. Just last month there were news reports
about KKK recruitment efforts in Indiana. As I am
typing this there is reporting on CNN about a white
supremacist who is alleged to have been involved in
the murder of the parents of a judge in Chicago.

I must say that I am more confused than ever about
what exactly it is that you are saying with regard to
your original claim that fiction writing should not be
based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not
know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to
be reported at all or not.

I hope you could clarify these points before raising
new ones.

Cheers,

Santosh
Marlon Menezes
2005-03-02 07:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert seems to have difficulty differentiating
between personal freedom of expression and government
sanctioned propaganda.

First of all, contrary to what Gilbert claims, the
KKK, Aryan Nation and other white supremist groups are
free to express their opinions in the United States -
and thankfully so. There is nothing in the US
constitution that prevents them from expressing their
ideas so long as they do not engage in physical or
verbal threats against other entities. In fact, such
organizations have used their rights to public access
to enable them to broadcast their propaganda on TV
(check your local public access TV - they are quite
amusing to watch and make the BJP's "Goa's Freedom
Struggle" propaganda crap look very upscale).
Furthermore, libel laws in the US are very weak and
have rarely been successfully used to prosecute such
individuals. In most cases, individuals from these
various organizations have been found guilty of
specfic crimes which has resulted in successful legal
action being filed against them.

This cannot be compared to state sanctioned
propaganda, such as the BJP's "Goa's freedom struggle"
video. Conversely, the movie "Sins" cannot be clubbed
with the above because it has no government
involvement. Furthermore, just because a few right
wing christian extremists may find this movie
offensive, does not make it communal either. This
behavior is not too different from that of the Sh*t
Sena who have opposed the release of movies they
considered offensive to their culture or religion. Is
there really a difference between them and Gilbert's
attitude?

Marlon
--- Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in
print
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
and in movies a lot of fictional material about
blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil
protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred
and the violence - similar to India.
--- Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote:>
Gilbert,
To what part of my post are you responding? Are you
comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are
writers who base their fiction on factual situations
concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
I must say that I am more confused than ever about
what exactly it is that you are saying with regard
to
your original claim that fiction writing should not
be
based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not
know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to
be reported at all or not.
I hope you could clarify these points before raising
new ones.
Cheers,
Santosh
jose colaco
2005-03-02 16:21:26 UTC
Permalink
From: Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com>

1. Gilbert seems to have difficulty differentiating between personal freedom
of expression and government sanctioned propaganda.

2. (The) movie "Sins" ...... just because a few right wing christian
extremists may find this movie
offensive, does not make it communal either. This behavior is not too
different from that of the Sh*t Sena who have opposed the release of movies
they considered offensive to their culture or religion.

3. Is there really a difference between them and Gilbert's attitude?


jc response:

I agree with 66.7% of (the above quoted part of) what Marlon has written.

re: 1.-> By confusing the Govt-produced VideoCD with the independently
produced movie SINS, Gilbert definitely exhibits "difficulty
differentiating between personal freedom of expression and government
sanctioned propaganda"

re: 2.-> Absolutely on the button. Join the 'Sh*t Sena' in the gutter is
just another way of saying that Catholics cannot manage things differently.

What are the Catholic Sabhas saying? That ordained Catholic priests do not
have heterosexual feelings of love? or that they are incapable of having
affairs? or that there have been NO such affairs?

My friends in the various Catholic Sabhas - You want to join the 'Sh*t
Sena' in the gutter, feel free. My advice however is that Catholic will
benefit from leading by example.

And yes..... the best way to prevent a recurrence of this "Sex is Sin" type
of movie..... make it lawful for priests to fall in love and proceed
naturally!

Sex only becomes a Sin .....when you make it so.

re: 3 -> There is really a difference between the 'Sh*t Sena' and Gilbert.
The 'Sh*t Sena' are organisers(leaders) of confusao. Gilbert is only a
follower, a cheer leader at best.

just my view

jc
http://www.colaco.net

==== from archives

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at r...>
PRESS STATEMENT

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments
of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line
between pornography, truth and fiction.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Goa-Goans/message/19117

JC: For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into
providing FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of
whom may have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see
SINS. Just like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.


Fred Noronha: I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends
and censorship in the name of religion begins.


Gilbert Lawrence: I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa
administrators play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list
becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid.

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-02 18:55:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi JC:
Can I ask a stupid queston? Why does a thread suddenly get expanded into
a post for zillion individual e-mail addresses? Many of the posters
belong to the mailing list and thus get the post multiple times. Others
get into the subject line half-way thorough the discussion.

Personally I am trying to raise interesting ... perhaps controversial
subject ... perhaps educational topics to get more Goans on the
cyber-Goa mailing lists. But by this measure to individually posts, is
giving the wrong message. Are these some VIP Goans? Just my opinion!

To me both Marlon and JC have taken my statements out of context and out
of the train of thought. In fact, I was the one who pointed out the
differences between the Goa VCD and the SINS in the original post. Then
I went to analyze the similarities beyond these differences. Are you
trying to argue with yourselves? In that case, you do not have to state,
WHAT YOU THINK I have said.

Please take your time to read and understand the posts. With cyberspace
there is not much time for the writer or the reader or the bandwidth to
write dissertations. I like to write salient points and hope the readers
can in their own mind expand on the perspectives and look at an issue
from another view point. There are no right and wrongs ... there are
perspective which we need to appreciate. Unless it is wild allegations
that defies rationality. Just my view! Thanks

From: Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com>
From: Jose colaco
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-03 23:25:04 UTC
Permalink
I have NO PROBLEM with reporting the facts.
I do HAVE PROBLEMS with the fictionalized facts. (aka called
docu-dramas)
I do HAVE PROBLEMS with augmentations of the facts.

My PHILOSOPHY: "Think twice before one does harm to someone else".
"Because do unto others what you would like to be done to yourself"

Hope that clarifies my position.
GL

Santosh Helekar "

To what part of my post are you responding? Are you comparing fiction
writers with KKK members? Are writers who base their fiction on
factual situations concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
That is why we do not see KKK in USA.
My perception is different from yours. I hear of KKK rallies being
held in many towns in the U.S. quite regularly. Just last month there
were news reports about KKK recruitment efforts in Indiana. As I am
typing this there is reporting on CNN about a white supremacist who
is alleged to have been involved in the murder of the parents of a
judge in Chicago.

I must say that I am more confused than ever about what exactly it is
that you are saying with regard to your original claim that fiction
writing should not be based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not know whether you
want unpleasant facts about them to be reported at all or not.

I hope you could clarify these points before raising new ones.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2005-03-04 05:30:59 UTC
Permalink
I have NO PROBLEM with reporting facts.
I do HAVE PROBLEMS with the fiction. (aka called
docu-dramas) I do HAVE PROBLEMS with augmentations to
the facts.
My PHILOSOPHY: "Think twice before one does harm
someone else". "Because do unto others what you would
like to be done to yourself"
Hope that clarifies my position.
That is good. In mentioning docu-drama, I assume you
mean you have a problem with fiction which is
presented as fact, and not fiction based on fact,
which is rightly presented as fiction.

Cheers,

Santosh
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-02 03:15:55 UTC
Permalink
GL responds to Santosh:
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print and in movies a lot
of fictional material about blacks and Jews. No amount of responses,
civil protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred and the
violence - similar to India.

In the USA, this has stopped now! Because the civil right movement and
the Jewish lawyers went after these groups with libel law suits. They
went after not the perpetrators of the violence (the house-burners, the
lynchers, gun slingers etc.). They went after their civil leaders and
those that produced the fictional material and the movies. They won big
- money wise! That is why we do not see KKK in USA.

That appears to be the civilized way to stop invented story and crimes
based on hate and imaginary tales put out by those under 'freedom of
expression'. Pay for your expression with MONEY! Don't you love it? :=))

Can all those who hate the caste and religious violence in India join
and do/support something similar. Yes, RSS! They can be confronted - in
the court of law! Sooner or later they (leaders) will have to pay with
jail and / or money.
Regards, GL

Santosh:
That is a question to be asked of lawyers who specialize in libel
law. I do not know how to answer it. But I think any professional
fiction writer can seek legal help before publishing his/her
fictional stories to ensure that they are not subject to litigation
under libel law.

Gilbert Lawrence wrote:
Hi Santosh,
But you did not answer my honest question.
Where does fiction end and libel begin?
Santosh Helekar
2005-03-02 04:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print
and in movies a lot of fictional material about
blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil
protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred
and the violence - similar to India.
Gilbert,

To what part of my post are you responding? Are you
comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are
writers who base their fiction on factual situations
concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
That is why we do not see KKK in USA.
My perception is different from yours. I hear of KKK
rallies being held in many towns in the U.S. quite
regularly. Just last month there were news reports
about KKK recruitment efforts in Indiana. As I am
typing this there is reporting on CNN about a white
supremacist who is alleged to have been involved in
the murder of the parents of a judge in Chicago.

I must say that I am more confused than ever about
what exactly it is that you are saying with regard to
your original claim that fiction writing should not be
based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not
know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to
be reported at all or not.

I hope you could clarify these points before raising
new ones.

Cheers,

Santosh
Marlon Menezes
2005-03-02 07:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert seems to have difficulty differentiating
between personal freedom of expression and government
sanctioned propaganda.

First of all, contrary to what Gilbert claims, the
KKK, Aryan Nation and other white supremist groups are
free to express their opinions in the United States -
and thankfully so. There is nothing in the US
constitution that prevents them from expressing their
ideas so long as they do not engage in physical or
verbal threats against other entities. In fact, such
organizations have used their rights to public access
to enable them to broadcast their propaganda on TV
(check your local public access TV - they are quite
amusing to watch and make the BJP's "Goa's Freedom
Struggle" propaganda crap look very upscale).
Furthermore, libel laws in the US are very weak and
have rarely been successfully used to prosecute such
individuals. In most cases, individuals from these
various organizations have been found guilty of
specfic crimes which has resulted in successful legal
action being filed against them.

This cannot be compared to state sanctioned
propaganda, such as the BJP's "Goa's freedom struggle"
video. Conversely, the movie "Sins" cannot be clubbed
with the above because it has no government
involvement. Furthermore, just because a few right
wing christian extremists may find this movie
offensive, does not make it communal either. This
behavior is not too different from that of the Sh*t
Sena who have opposed the release of movies they
considered offensive to their culture or religion. Is
there really a difference between them and Gilbert's
attitude?

Marlon
--- Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in
print
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
and in movies a lot of fictional material about
blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil
protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred
and the violence - similar to India.
--- Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote:>
Gilbert,
To what part of my post are you responding? Are you
comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are
writers who base their fiction on factual situations
concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
I must say that I am more confused than ever about
what exactly it is that you are saying with regard
to
your original claim that fiction writing should not
be
based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not
know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to
be reported at all or not.
I hope you could clarify these points before raising
new ones.
Cheers,
Santosh
jose colaco
2005-03-02 16:21:26 UTC
Permalink
From: Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com>

1. Gilbert seems to have difficulty differentiating between personal freedom
of expression and government sanctioned propaganda.

2. (The) movie "Sins" ...... just because a few right wing christian
extremists may find this movie
offensive, does not make it communal either. This behavior is not too
different from that of the Sh*t Sena who have opposed the release of movies
they considered offensive to their culture or religion.

3. Is there really a difference between them and Gilbert's attitude?


jc response:

I agree with 66.7% of (the above quoted part of) what Marlon has written.

re: 1.-> By confusing the Govt-produced VideoCD with the independently
produced movie SINS, Gilbert definitely exhibits "difficulty
differentiating between personal freedom of expression and government
sanctioned propaganda"

re: 2.-> Absolutely on the button. Join the 'Sh*t Sena' in the gutter is
just another way of saying that Catholics cannot manage things differently.

What are the Catholic Sabhas saying? That ordained Catholic priests do not
have heterosexual feelings of love? or that they are incapable of having
affairs? or that there have been NO such affairs?

My friends in the various Catholic Sabhas - You want to join the 'Sh*t
Sena' in the gutter, feel free. My advice however is that Catholic will
benefit from leading by example.

And yes..... the best way to prevent a recurrence of this "Sex is Sin" type
of movie..... make it lawful for priests to fall in love and proceed
naturally!

Sex only becomes a Sin .....when you make it so.

re: 3 -> There is really a difference between the 'Sh*t Sena' and Gilbert.
The 'Sh*t Sena' are organisers(leaders) of confusao. Gilbert is only a
follower, a cheer leader at best.

just my view

jc
http://www.colaco.net

==== from archives

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at r...>
PRESS STATEMENT

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments
of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line
between pornography, truth and fiction.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Goa-Goans/message/19117

JC: For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into
providing FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of
whom may have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see
SINS. Just like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.


Fred Noronha: I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends
and censorship in the name of religion begins.


Gilbert Lawrence: I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa
administrators play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list
becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid.

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-02 18:55:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi JC:
Can I ask a stupid queston? Why does a thread suddenly get expanded into
a post for zillion individual e-mail addresses? Many of the posters
belong to the mailing list and thus get the post multiple times. Others
get into the subject line half-way thorough the discussion.

Personally I am trying to raise interesting ... perhaps controversial
subject ... perhaps educational topics to get more Goans on the
cyber-Goa mailing lists. But by this measure to individually posts, is
giving the wrong message. Are these some VIP Goans? Just my opinion!

To me both Marlon and JC have taken my statements out of context and out
of the train of thought. In fact, I was the one who pointed out the
differences between the Goa VCD and the SINS in the original post. Then
I went to analyze the similarities beyond these differences. Are you
trying to argue with yourselves? In that case, you do not have to state,
WHAT YOU THINK I have said.

Please take your time to read and understand the posts. With cyberspace
there is not much time for the writer or the reader or the bandwidth to
write dissertations. I like to write salient points and hope the readers
can in their own mind expand on the perspectives and look at an issue
from another view point. There are no right and wrongs ... there are
perspective which we need to appreciate. Unless it is wild allegations
that defies rationality. Just my view! Thanks

From: Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com>
From: Jose colaco
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-03 23:25:04 UTC
Permalink
I have NO PROBLEM with reporting the facts.
I do HAVE PROBLEMS with the fictionalized facts. (aka called
docu-dramas)
I do HAVE PROBLEMS with augmentations of the facts.

My PHILOSOPHY: "Think twice before one does harm to someone else".
"Because do unto others what you would like to be done to yourself"

Hope that clarifies my position.
GL

Santosh Helekar "

To what part of my post are you responding? Are you comparing fiction
writers with KKK members? Are writers who base their fiction on
factual situations concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
That is why we do not see KKK in USA.
My perception is different from yours. I hear of KKK rallies being
held in many towns in the U.S. quite regularly. Just last month there
were news reports about KKK recruitment efforts in Indiana. As I am
typing this there is reporting on CNN about a white supremacist who
is alleged to have been involved in the murder of the parents of a
judge in Chicago.

I must say that I am more confused than ever about what exactly it is
that you are saying with regard to your original claim that fiction
writing should not be based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not know whether you
want unpleasant facts about them to be reported at all or not.

I hope you could clarify these points before raising new ones.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2005-03-04 05:30:59 UTC
Permalink
I have NO PROBLEM with reporting facts.
I do HAVE PROBLEMS with the fiction. (aka called
docu-dramas) I do HAVE PROBLEMS with augmentations to
the facts.
My PHILOSOPHY: "Think twice before one does harm
someone else". "Because do unto others what you would
like to be done to yourself"
Hope that clarifies my position.
That is good. In mentioning docu-drama, I assume you
mean you have a problem with fiction which is
presented as fact, and not fiction based on fact,
which is rightly presented as fiction.

Cheers,

Santosh
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-02 03:15:55 UTC
Permalink
GL responds to Santosh:
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print and in movies a lot
of fictional material about blacks and Jews. No amount of responses,
civil protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred and the
violence - similar to India.

In the USA, this has stopped now! Because the civil right movement and
the Jewish lawyers went after these groups with libel law suits. They
went after not the perpetrators of the violence (the house-burners, the
lynchers, gun slingers etc.). They went after their civil leaders and
those that produced the fictional material and the movies. They won big
- money wise! That is why we do not see KKK in USA.

That appears to be the civilized way to stop invented story and crimes
based on hate and imaginary tales put out by those under 'freedom of
expression'. Pay for your expression with MONEY! Don't you love it? :=))

Can all those who hate the caste and religious violence in India join
and do/support something similar. Yes, RSS! They can be confronted - in
the court of law! Sooner or later they (leaders) will have to pay with
jail and / or money.
Regards, GL

Santosh:
That is a question to be asked of lawyers who specialize in libel
law. I do not know how to answer it. But I think any professional
fiction writer can seek legal help before publishing his/her
fictional stories to ensure that they are not subject to litigation
under libel law.

Gilbert Lawrence wrote:
Hi Santosh,
But you did not answer my honest question.
Where does fiction end and libel begin?
Santosh Helekar
2005-03-02 04:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print
and in movies a lot of fictional material about
blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil
protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred
and the violence - similar to India.
Gilbert,

To what part of my post are you responding? Are you
comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are
writers who base their fiction on factual situations
concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
That is why we do not see KKK in USA.
My perception is different from yours. I hear of KKK
rallies being held in many towns in the U.S. quite
regularly. Just last month there were news reports
about KKK recruitment efforts in Indiana. As I am
typing this there is reporting on CNN about a white
supremacist who is alleged to have been involved in
the murder of the parents of a judge in Chicago.

I must say that I am more confused than ever about
what exactly it is that you are saying with regard to
your original claim that fiction writing should not be
based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not
know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to
be reported at all or not.

I hope you could clarify these points before raising
new ones.

Cheers,

Santosh
Marlon Menezes
2005-03-02 07:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert seems to have difficulty differentiating
between personal freedom of expression and government
sanctioned propaganda.

First of all, contrary to what Gilbert claims, the
KKK, Aryan Nation and other white supremist groups are
free to express their opinions in the United States -
and thankfully so. There is nothing in the US
constitution that prevents them from expressing their
ideas so long as they do not engage in physical or
verbal threats against other entities. In fact, such
organizations have used their rights to public access
to enable them to broadcast their propaganda on TV
(check your local public access TV - they are quite
amusing to watch and make the BJP's "Goa's Freedom
Struggle" propaganda crap look very upscale).
Furthermore, libel laws in the US are very weak and
have rarely been successfully used to prosecute such
individuals. In most cases, individuals from these
various organizations have been found guilty of
specfic crimes which has resulted in successful legal
action being filed against them.

This cannot be compared to state sanctioned
propaganda, such as the BJP's "Goa's freedom struggle"
video. Conversely, the movie "Sins" cannot be clubbed
with the above because it has no government
involvement. Furthermore, just because a few right
wing christian extremists may find this movie
offensive, does not make it communal either. This
behavior is not too different from that of the Sh*t
Sena who have opposed the release of movies they
considered offensive to their culture or religion. Is
there really a difference between them and Gilbert's
attitude?

Marlon
--- Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in
print
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
and in movies a lot of fictional material about
blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil
protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred
and the violence - similar to India.
--- Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote:>
Gilbert,
To what part of my post are you responding? Are you
comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are
writers who base their fiction on factual situations
concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
I must say that I am more confused than ever about
what exactly it is that you are saying with regard
to
your original claim that fiction writing should not
be
based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not
know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to
be reported at all or not.
I hope you could clarify these points before raising
new ones.
Cheers,
Santosh
jose colaco
2005-03-02 16:21:26 UTC
Permalink
From: Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com>

1. Gilbert seems to have difficulty differentiating between personal freedom
of expression and government sanctioned propaganda.

2. (The) movie "Sins" ...... just because a few right wing christian
extremists may find this movie
offensive, does not make it communal either. This behavior is not too
different from that of the Sh*t Sena who have opposed the release of movies
they considered offensive to their culture or religion.

3. Is there really a difference between them and Gilbert's attitude?


jc response:

I agree with 66.7% of (the above quoted part of) what Marlon has written.

re: 1.-> By confusing the Govt-produced VideoCD with the independently
produced movie SINS, Gilbert definitely exhibits "difficulty
differentiating between personal freedom of expression and government
sanctioned propaganda"

re: 2.-> Absolutely on the button. Join the 'Sh*t Sena' in the gutter is
just another way of saying that Catholics cannot manage things differently.

What are the Catholic Sabhas saying? That ordained Catholic priests do not
have heterosexual feelings of love? or that they are incapable of having
affairs? or that there have been NO such affairs?

My friends in the various Catholic Sabhas - You want to join the 'Sh*t
Sena' in the gutter, feel free. My advice however is that Catholic will
benefit from leading by example.

And yes..... the best way to prevent a recurrence of this "Sex is Sin" type
of movie..... make it lawful for priests to fall in love and proceed
naturally!

Sex only becomes a Sin .....when you make it so.

re: 3 -> There is really a difference between the 'Sh*t Sena' and Gilbert.
The 'Sh*t Sena' are organisers(leaders) of confusao. Gilbert is only a
follower, a cheer leader at best.

just my view

jc
http://www.colaco.net

==== from archives

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at r...>
PRESS STATEMENT

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments
of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line
between pornography, truth and fiction.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Goa-Goans/message/19117

JC: For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into
providing FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of
whom may have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see
SINS. Just like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.


Fred Noronha: I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends
and censorship in the name of religion begins.


Gilbert Lawrence: I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa
administrators play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list
becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid.

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-02 18:55:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi JC:
Can I ask a stupid queston? Why does a thread suddenly get expanded into
a post for zillion individual e-mail addresses? Many of the posters
belong to the mailing list and thus get the post multiple times. Others
get into the subject line half-way thorough the discussion.

Personally I am trying to raise interesting ... perhaps controversial
subject ... perhaps educational topics to get more Goans on the
cyber-Goa mailing lists. But by this measure to individually posts, is
giving the wrong message. Are these some VIP Goans? Just my opinion!

To me both Marlon and JC have taken my statements out of context and out
of the train of thought. In fact, I was the one who pointed out the
differences between the Goa VCD and the SINS in the original post. Then
I went to analyze the similarities beyond these differences. Are you
trying to argue with yourselves? In that case, you do not have to state,
WHAT YOU THINK I have said.

Please take your time to read and understand the posts. With cyberspace
there is not much time for the writer or the reader or the bandwidth to
write dissertations. I like to write salient points and hope the readers
can in their own mind expand on the perspectives and look at an issue
from another view point. There are no right and wrongs ... there are
perspective which we need to appreciate. Unless it is wild allegations
that defies rationality. Just my view! Thanks

From: Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com>
From: Jose colaco
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-03 23:25:04 UTC
Permalink
I have NO PROBLEM with reporting the facts.
I do HAVE PROBLEMS with the fictionalized facts. (aka called
docu-dramas)
I do HAVE PROBLEMS with augmentations of the facts.

My PHILOSOPHY: "Think twice before one does harm to someone else".
"Because do unto others what you would like to be done to yourself"

Hope that clarifies my position.
GL

Santosh Helekar "

To what part of my post are you responding? Are you comparing fiction
writers with KKK members? Are writers who base their fiction on
factual situations concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
That is why we do not see KKK in USA.
My perception is different from yours. I hear of KKK rallies being
held in many towns in the U.S. quite regularly. Just last month there
were news reports about KKK recruitment efforts in Indiana. As I am
typing this there is reporting on CNN about a white supremacist who
is alleged to have been involved in the murder of the parents of a
judge in Chicago.

I must say that I am more confused than ever about what exactly it is
that you are saying with regard to your original claim that fiction
writing should not be based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not know whether you
want unpleasant facts about them to be reported at all or not.

I hope you could clarify these points before raising new ones.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2005-03-04 05:30:59 UTC
Permalink
I have NO PROBLEM with reporting facts.
I do HAVE PROBLEMS with the fiction. (aka called
docu-dramas) I do HAVE PROBLEMS with augmentations to
the facts.
My PHILOSOPHY: "Think twice before one does harm
someone else". "Because do unto others what you would
like to be done to yourself"
Hope that clarifies my position.
That is good. In mentioning docu-drama, I assume you
mean you have a problem with fiction which is
presented as fact, and not fiction based on fact,
which is rightly presented as fiction.

Cheers,

Santosh
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-02 03:15:55 UTC
Permalink
GL responds to Santosh:
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print and in movies a lot
of fictional material about blacks and Jews. No amount of responses,
civil protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred and the
violence - similar to India.

In the USA, this has stopped now! Because the civil right movement and
the Jewish lawyers went after these groups with libel law suits. They
went after not the perpetrators of the violence (the house-burners, the
lynchers, gun slingers etc.). They went after their civil leaders and
those that produced the fictional material and the movies. They won big
- money wise! That is why we do not see KKK in USA.

That appears to be the civilized way to stop invented story and crimes
based on hate and imaginary tales put out by those under 'freedom of
expression'. Pay for your expression with MONEY! Don't you love it? :=))

Can all those who hate the caste and religious violence in India join
and do/support something similar. Yes, RSS! They can be confronted - in
the court of law! Sooner or later they (leaders) will have to pay with
jail and / or money.
Regards, GL

Santosh:
That is a question to be asked of lawyers who specialize in libel
law. I do not know how to answer it. But I think any professional
fiction writer can seek legal help before publishing his/her
fictional stories to ensure that they are not subject to litigation
under libel law.

Gilbert Lawrence wrote:
Hi Santosh,
But you did not answer my honest question.
Where does fiction end and libel begin?
Santosh Helekar
2005-03-02 04:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print
and in movies a lot of fictional material about
blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil
protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred
and the violence - similar to India.
Gilbert,

To what part of my post are you responding? Are you
comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are
writers who base their fiction on factual situations
concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
That is why we do not see KKK in USA.
My perception is different from yours. I hear of KKK
rallies being held in many towns in the U.S. quite
regularly. Just last month there were news reports
about KKK recruitment efforts in Indiana. As I am
typing this there is reporting on CNN about a white
supremacist who is alleged to have been involved in
the murder of the parents of a judge in Chicago.

I must say that I am more confused than ever about
what exactly it is that you are saying with regard to
your original claim that fiction writing should not be
based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not
know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to
be reported at all or not.

I hope you could clarify these points before raising
new ones.

Cheers,

Santosh
Marlon Menezes
2005-03-02 07:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert seems to have difficulty differentiating
between personal freedom of expression and government
sanctioned propaganda.

First of all, contrary to what Gilbert claims, the
KKK, Aryan Nation and other white supremist groups are
free to express their opinions in the United States -
and thankfully so. There is nothing in the US
constitution that prevents them from expressing their
ideas so long as they do not engage in physical or
verbal threats against other entities. In fact, such
organizations have used their rights to public access
to enable them to broadcast their propaganda on TV
(check your local public access TV - they are quite
amusing to watch and make the BJP's "Goa's Freedom
Struggle" propaganda crap look very upscale).
Furthermore, libel laws in the US are very weak and
have rarely been successfully used to prosecute such
individuals. In most cases, individuals from these
various organizations have been found guilty of
specfic crimes which has resulted in successful legal
action being filed against them.

This cannot be compared to state sanctioned
propaganda, such as the BJP's "Goa's freedom struggle"
video. Conversely, the movie "Sins" cannot be clubbed
with the above because it has no government
involvement. Furthermore, just because a few right
wing christian extremists may find this movie
offensive, does not make it communal either. This
behavior is not too different from that of the Sh*t
Sena who have opposed the release of movies they
considered offensive to their culture or religion. Is
there really a difference between them and Gilbert's
attitude?

Marlon
--- Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in
print
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
and in movies a lot of fictional material about
blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil
protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred
and the violence - similar to India.
--- Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote:>
Gilbert,
To what part of my post are you responding? Are you
comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are
writers who base their fiction on factual situations
concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
I must say that I am more confused than ever about
what exactly it is that you are saying with regard
to
your original claim that fiction writing should not
be
based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not
know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to
be reported at all or not.
I hope you could clarify these points before raising
new ones.
Cheers,
Santosh
jose colaco
2005-03-02 16:21:26 UTC
Permalink
From: Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com>

1. Gilbert seems to have difficulty differentiating between personal freedom
of expression and government sanctioned propaganda.

2. (The) movie "Sins" ...... just because a few right wing christian
extremists may find this movie
offensive, does not make it communal either. This behavior is not too
different from that of the Sh*t Sena who have opposed the release of movies
they considered offensive to their culture or religion.

3. Is there really a difference between them and Gilbert's attitude?


jc response:

I agree with 66.7% of (the above quoted part of) what Marlon has written.

re: 1.-> By confusing the Govt-produced VideoCD with the independently
produced movie SINS, Gilbert definitely exhibits "difficulty
differentiating between personal freedom of expression and government
sanctioned propaganda"

re: 2.-> Absolutely on the button. Join the 'Sh*t Sena' in the gutter is
just another way of saying that Catholics cannot manage things differently.

What are the Catholic Sabhas saying? That ordained Catholic priests do not
have heterosexual feelings of love? or that they are incapable of having
affairs? or that there have been NO such affairs?

My friends in the various Catholic Sabhas - You want to join the 'Sh*t
Sena' in the gutter, feel free. My advice however is that Catholic will
benefit from leading by example.

And yes..... the best way to prevent a recurrence of this "Sex is Sin" type
of movie..... make it lawful for priests to fall in love and proceed
naturally!

Sex only becomes a Sin .....when you make it so.

re: 3 -> There is really a difference between the 'Sh*t Sena' and Gilbert.
The 'Sh*t Sena' are organisers(leaders) of confusao. Gilbert is only a
follower, a cheer leader at best.

just my view

jc
http://www.colaco.net

==== from archives

Voice Of The Exploited <voiceoftheexploited at r...>
PRESS STATEMENT

This portrayal of an ordained Priest in such light will hurt the sentiments
of the Christian Community as there appears to be a fine dividing line
between pornography, truth and fiction.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Goa-Goans/message/19117

JC: For all I know, the guys at the AICU & BCS have been CONNED into
providing FREE publicity for this film. NOW, all the Hindu Righties (many of
whom may have protested against the film FIRE) will be lining up to see
SINS. Just like all the Krish-chen Righties had lined up to see the Passion.


Fred Noronha: I'm not sure where the line between sensitive film-making ends
and censorship in the name of religion begins.


Gilbert Lawrence: I am not seeking censorship. But should the cyber-Goa
administrators play a role especially with allegations. Or the mailing list
becomes nothing more than a sensational tabloid.

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-02 18:55:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi JC:
Can I ask a stupid queston? Why does a thread suddenly get expanded into
a post for zillion individual e-mail addresses? Many of the posters
belong to the mailing list and thus get the post multiple times. Others
get into the subject line half-way thorough the discussion.

Personally I am trying to raise interesting ... perhaps controversial
subject ... perhaps educational topics to get more Goans on the
cyber-Goa mailing lists. But by this measure to individually posts, is
giving the wrong message. Are these some VIP Goans? Just my opinion!

To me both Marlon and JC have taken my statements out of context and out
of the train of thought. In fact, I was the one who pointed out the
differences between the Goa VCD and the SINS in the original post. Then
I went to analyze the similarities beyond these differences. Are you
trying to argue with yourselves? In that case, you do not have to state,
WHAT YOU THINK I have said.

Please take your time to read and understand the posts. With cyberspace
there is not much time for the writer or the reader or the bandwidth to
write dissertations. I like to write salient points and hope the readers
can in their own mind expand on the perspectives and look at an issue
from another view point. There are no right and wrongs ... there are
perspective which we need to appreciate. Unless it is wild allegations
that defies rationality. Just my view! Thanks

From: Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com>
From: Jose colaco
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-03 23:25:04 UTC
Permalink
I have NO PROBLEM with reporting the facts.
I do HAVE PROBLEMS with the fictionalized facts. (aka called
docu-dramas)
I do HAVE PROBLEMS with augmentations of the facts.

My PHILOSOPHY: "Think twice before one does harm to someone else".
"Because do unto others what you would like to be done to yourself"

Hope that clarifies my position.
GL

Santosh Helekar "

To what part of my post are you responding? Are you comparing fiction
writers with KKK members? Are writers who base their fiction on
factual situations concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
That is why we do not see KKK in USA.
My perception is different from yours. I hear of KKK rallies being
held in many towns in the U.S. quite regularly. Just last month there
were news reports about KKK recruitment efforts in Indiana. As I am
typing this there is reporting on CNN about a white supremacist who
is alleged to have been involved in the murder of the parents of a
judge in Chicago.

I must say that I am more confused than ever about what exactly it is
that you are saying with regard to your original claim that fiction
writing should not be based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not know whether you
want unpleasant facts about them to be reported at all or not.

I hope you could clarify these points before raising new ones.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2005-03-04 05:30:59 UTC
Permalink
I have NO PROBLEM with reporting facts.
I do HAVE PROBLEMS with the fiction. (aka called
docu-dramas) I do HAVE PROBLEMS with augmentations to
the facts.
My PHILOSOPHY: "Think twice before one does harm
someone else". "Because do unto others what you would
like to be done to yourself"
Hope that clarifies my position.
That is good. In mentioning docu-drama, I assume you
mean you have a problem with fiction which is
presented as fact, and not fiction based on fact,
which is rightly presented as fiction.

Cheers,

Santosh
Gilbert Lawrence
2005-03-02 03:15:55 UTC
Permalink
GL responds to Santosh:
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print and in movies a lot
of fictional material about blacks and Jews. No amount of responses,
civil protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred and the
violence - similar to India.

In the USA, this has stopped now! Because the civil right movement and
the Jewish lawyers went after these groups with libel law suits. They
went after not the perpetrators of the violence (the house-burners, the
lynchers, gun slingers etc.). They went after their civil leaders and
those that produced the fictional material and the movies. They won big
- money wise! That is why we do not see KKK in USA.

That appears to be the civilized way to stop invented story and crimes
based on hate and imaginary tales put out by those under 'freedom of
expression'. Pay for your expression with MONEY! Don't you love it? :=))

Can all those who hate the caste and religious violence in India join
and do/support something similar. Yes, RSS! They can be confronted - in
the court of law! Sooner or later they (leaders) will have to pay with
jail and / or money.
Regards, GL

Santosh:
That is a question to be asked of lawyers who specialize in libel
law. I do not know how to answer it. But I think any professional
fiction writer can seek legal help before publishing his/her
fictional stories to ensure that they are not subject to litigation
under libel law.

Gilbert Lawrence wrote:
Hi Santosh,
But you did not answer my honest question.
Where does fiction end and libel begin?
Santosh Helekar
2005-03-02 04:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in print
and in movies a lot of fictional material about
blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil
protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred
and the violence - similar to India.
Gilbert,

To what part of my post are you responding? Are you
comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are
writers who base their fiction on factual situations
concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
That is why we do not see KKK in USA.
My perception is different from yours. I hear of KKK
rallies being held in many towns in the U.S. quite
regularly. Just last month there were news reports
about KKK recruitment efforts in Indiana. As I am
typing this there is reporting on CNN about a white
supremacist who is alleged to have been involved in
the murder of the parents of a judge in Chicago.

I must say that I am more confused than ever about
what exactly it is that you are saying with regard to
your original claim that fiction writing should not be
based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not
know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to
be reported at all or not.

I hope you could clarify these points before raising
new ones.

Cheers,

Santosh
Marlon Menezes
2005-03-02 07:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert seems to have difficulty differentiating
between personal freedom of expression and government
sanctioned propaganda.

First of all, contrary to what Gilbert claims, the
KKK, Aryan Nation and other white supremist groups are
free to express their opinions in the United States -
and thankfully so. There is nothing in the US
constitution that prevents them from expressing their
ideas so long as they do not engage in physical or
verbal threats against other entities. In fact, such
organizations have used their rights to public access
to enable them to broadcast their propaganda on TV
(check your local public access TV - they are quite
amusing to watch and make the BJP's "Goa's Freedom
Struggle" propaganda crap look very upscale).
Furthermore, libel laws in the US are very weak and
have rarely been successfully used to prosecute such
individuals. In most cases, individuals from these
various organizations have been found guilty of
specfic crimes which has resulted in successful legal
action being filed against them.

This cannot be compared to state sanctioned
propaganda, such as the BJP's "Goa's freedom struggle"
video. Conversely, the movie "Sins" cannot be clubbed
with the above because it has no government
involvement. Furthermore, just because a few right
wing christian extremists may find this movie
offensive, does not make it communal either. This
behavior is not too different from that of the Sh*t
Sena who have opposed the release of movies they
considered offensive to their culture or religion. Is
there really a difference between them and Gilbert's
attitude?

Marlon
--- Gilbert Lawrence <gilbertlaw at adelphia.net>
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The KKK in the USA used to put out in word, in
print
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
and in movies a lot of fictional material about
blacks and Jews. No amount of responses, civil
protests and civil-right laws could end the hatred
and the violence - similar to India.
--- Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote:>
Gilbert,
To what part of my post are you responding? Are you
comparing fiction writers with KKK members? Are
writers who base their fiction on factual situations
concerning living individuals and existing
institutions no different from racist bigots?
I must say that I am more confused than ever about
what exactly it is that you are saying with regard
to
your original claim that fiction writing should not
be
based on factual situations involving living
individuals or existing institutions. I also do not
know whether you want unpleasant facts about them to
be reported at all or not.
I hope you could clarify these points before raising
new ones.
Cheers,
Santosh
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