Discussion:
plagiarism - response to Gilbert's questions
(too old to reply)
Jose Colaco
2007-03-23 22:16:19 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert Lawrence wrote:

Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers -
not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at
Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of
plagiarizing.
==


jc's response:

Dear Gilbert,

WRT the questions you asked of me, here are my answers.


Your Questions are numbered 1-19; My answers as jc 1 - jc 19


1: This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our
hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer
Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures.
There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened
to this impressive presentation.

jc 1: I am glad I made you think

--

2: Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done
at other teaching hospitals?

jc 2: I don't know about anybody else, but I would NOT present anything
without references

--

3: Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the
facts he presented?

jc 3: As I do not know the medical student in question, I would not be able
to ask him/her that question. He/She is the only one who can answer that
question.

--

4: Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they
get their training in the Bahamas?

jc 4: Every single Pediatric presentation which takes place every Friday -
lists the sources.

--

5: Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published
data?
6: Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?

jc 5 & 6: I would not know

--

7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information

--

8: When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of
which are not your original work?

jc 8: Yes. BUT I will NEVER PUBLISH ANYTHING without references.

--

9: If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students
to use it or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 9: I would certainly allow them to use it BUT if they PUBLISH it, they
will have to give me credit for it, As an Example: please vide the foot of
this URL - reference 2 in
Loading Image...n.org/pt/re/jpgn/fulltext.00005176-199811000-00004.htm;jsessionid=GCPM7SQhMV1L1QyjPLMhdbG9q1vHG2zxtTslW1hSBK2R0hsfTqpl!1570379021!-949856144!8091!-1
or reference 51 in this one
http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/18/5/646

--

10: If one does not want the students to use the facts and information
provided, why does one teach?

jc 10: One teaches to improve knowledge NOT to steal

--

11: Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to
present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?

jc 11: They should be - but NOT as if it is their own material

--

12: If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?

jc 12: Yes. Every time they PUBLISH, they should give credit where one is
due.

--

13: Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the
authors' ideas?

14: Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one
cannot use the information gained from the book?

jc 13 & 14: These are irrelevant to the topic of Plagiarism aka Thiefing

--

15: If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount
historical events or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 15: I submit that one CANNOT recount historical events one has not
witnessed unless one makes references to the work of others.

--

16: Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have
references?

jc 16: If they contain the work of others? YES!

--

17: I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these
specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers.

jc 17: I cannot promise you intellectual answers. I am not an intellectual.
BUT, I will promise you unplagiarised responses.

--

18: If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's
and my last post.

jc 18: Whatever

--

19: As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because
many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth
being dignified with a response.

jc 19: Sure ....but the topic here is Plagiarising. Interesting isn't it
that 'many on Goanet have stopped dialouging with (me), because many of (my)
responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified
with a response' BUT you still generously condescended to write to me


The last word is yours for the taking.

Sincerely

jc
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 08:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below... as mentioned. FN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagarism#Self-plagiarism
Post by Jose Colaco
7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?
jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-24 14:45:45 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card
close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a
trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If
you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below...
as mentioned. FN
Frederick,

I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past? BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.

Cheers,

Santosh
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 20:04:08 UTC
Permalink
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!

This despite the fact that one should raise questions the veracity of
your interpretation of "self-plagarism", the logic behind
self-publishing, the options to copyright, and why the CreativeCommons
project turns copyright "on its head" as it was ... by using the
concept to allow for greater shareability.
Post by Santosh Helekar
I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past?
You are twisting the issue. To say I "defend plagiarism" is to do
violence to my thoughts and arguments.

I have just:

* Argued against the idea of "intellectual property" quoting Doc Searls
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1720

* Said I don't want to violate other's copyright, but feel that
knowledge should be
shared voluntarily and readily (and will do so myself) and that we should
allow others to build on our knowledge, as we do on the knowledge of others.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1718

* I would not make a big issue of it if someone quoted my work with or without
credit. (At most, I might send a request for credit... no
'cease-and-desist' stuff)
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* Am on the lookout for business models that allow the sharing of knowledge
and surviving/thriving.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* We need to recognise that copyright laws (and patents) have reached
a ridiculous point-of-no-return.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055541.html

* The Creative Commons ideals have influenced a great many project...
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055553.html
(Flickr, Internet Archive, Wikimedia Commons, Ourmedia, deviantART,
ccMixter, Public Library of Science, Proceedings of Science,
MIT OpenCourseWare, Clinical Skills Online, MIMA Music, Wikinews,
Wikitravel, Memory Alpha, Uncyclopedia, Jurispedia, Microsoft
Developer Network and many other wikis, Groklaw, This Week in Tech,
Rocketboom, Jet Set Show, newspaperindex, 20 minutes newspaper,
OpenStreetMap, Jamendo, BeatPick, Revver, GarageBand.com, blip.tv,
Star Wreck, Elephants Dream, Bumperactive) Source: Wikipedia.
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.
Yeah, but your comment is way of target. You can't just say "I think"
and interprete an idea in any which way you choose.

Both you and Jose have an understanding of "self-plagiarism" which
goes counter to the factual position of the concept as it stands
today. Please see:

* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055576.html
(Santosh)
* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055580.html
(JC)

If there is any reason for my attempt to refute you on this issue, it
is just because we seem to be accepting as the Gospel truth ideas
which are contestiable and not as "logical" as made out to be. (And,
even the Gospel is debatable these days.)

As I alleged elsewhere, it seemed to be that the otherwise
rationalistic Dr Helecar accepts Science as his religion, a God which
cannot be questioned. Now, it appears that he also places Copyright
and concepts about plagarism on an equally high altar, never to be
debated, and making suspect the potential for salvation of anyone who
differs on interpreting these issues....

Thanks, and peace. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 20:04:08 UTC
Permalink
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!

This despite the fact that one should raise questions the veracity of
your interpretation of "self-plagarism", the logic behind
self-publishing, the options to copyright, and why the CreativeCommons
project turns copyright "on its head" as it was ... by using the
concept to allow for greater shareability.
Post by Santosh Helekar
I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past?
You are twisting the issue. To say I "defend plagiarism" is to do
violence to my thoughts and arguments.

I have just:

* Argued against the idea of "intellectual property" quoting Doc Searls
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1720

* Said I don't want to violate other's copyright, but feel that
knowledge should be
shared voluntarily and readily (and will do so myself) and that we should
allow others to build on our knowledge, as we do on the knowledge of others.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1718

* I would not make a big issue of it if someone quoted my work with or without
credit. (At most, I might send a request for credit... no
'cease-and-desist' stuff)
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* Am on the lookout for business models that allow the sharing of knowledge
and surviving/thriving.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* We need to recognise that copyright laws (and patents) have reached
a ridiculous point-of-no-return.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055541.html

* The Creative Commons ideals have influenced a great many project...
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055553.html
(Flickr, Internet Archive, Wikimedia Commons, Ourmedia, deviantART,
ccMixter, Public Library of Science, Proceedings of Science,
MIT OpenCourseWare, Clinical Skills Online, MIMA Music, Wikinews,
Wikitravel, Memory Alpha, Uncyclopedia, Jurispedia, Microsoft
Developer Network and many other wikis, Groklaw, This Week in Tech,
Rocketboom, Jet Set Show, newspaperindex, 20 minutes newspaper,
OpenStreetMap, Jamendo, BeatPick, Revver, GarageBand.com, blip.tv,
Star Wreck, Elephants Dream, Bumperactive) Source: Wikipedia.
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.
Yeah, but your comment is way of target. You can't just say "I think"
and interprete an idea in any which way you choose.

Both you and Jose have an understanding of "self-plagiarism" which
goes counter to the factual position of the concept as it stands
today. Please see:

* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055576.html
(Santosh)
* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055580.html
(JC)

If there is any reason for my attempt to refute you on this issue, it
is just because we seem to be accepting as the Gospel truth ideas
which are contestiable and not as "logical" as made out to be. (And,
even the Gospel is debatable these days.)

As I alleged elsewhere, it seemed to be that the otherwise
rationalistic Dr Helecar accepts Science as his religion, a God which
cannot be questioned. Now, it appears that he also places Copyright
and concepts about plagarism on an equally high altar, never to be
debated, and making suspect the potential for salvation of anyone who
differs on interpreting these issues....

Thanks, and peace. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 20:04:08 UTC
Permalink
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!

This despite the fact that one should raise questions the veracity of
your interpretation of "self-plagarism", the logic behind
self-publishing, the options to copyright, and why the CreativeCommons
project turns copyright "on its head" as it was ... by using the
concept to allow for greater shareability.
Post by Santosh Helekar
I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past?
You are twisting the issue. To say I "defend plagiarism" is to do
violence to my thoughts and arguments.

I have just:

* Argued against the idea of "intellectual property" quoting Doc Searls
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1720

* Said I don't want to violate other's copyright, but feel that
knowledge should be
shared voluntarily and readily (and will do so myself) and that we should
allow others to build on our knowledge, as we do on the knowledge of others.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1718

* I would not make a big issue of it if someone quoted my work with or without
credit. (At most, I might send a request for credit... no
'cease-and-desist' stuff)
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* Am on the lookout for business models that allow the sharing of knowledge
and surviving/thriving.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* We need to recognise that copyright laws (and patents) have reached
a ridiculous point-of-no-return.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055541.html

* The Creative Commons ideals have influenced a great many project...
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055553.html
(Flickr, Internet Archive, Wikimedia Commons, Ourmedia, deviantART,
ccMixter, Public Library of Science, Proceedings of Science,
MIT OpenCourseWare, Clinical Skills Online, MIMA Music, Wikinews,
Wikitravel, Memory Alpha, Uncyclopedia, Jurispedia, Microsoft
Developer Network and many other wikis, Groklaw, This Week in Tech,
Rocketboom, Jet Set Show, newspaperindex, 20 minutes newspaper,
OpenStreetMap, Jamendo, BeatPick, Revver, GarageBand.com, blip.tv,
Star Wreck, Elephants Dream, Bumperactive) Source: Wikipedia.
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.
Yeah, but your comment is way of target. You can't just say "I think"
and interprete an idea in any which way you choose.

Both you and Jose have an understanding of "self-plagiarism" which
goes counter to the factual position of the concept as it stands
today. Please see:

* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055576.html
(Santosh)
* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055580.html
(JC)

If there is any reason for my attempt to refute you on this issue, it
is just because we seem to be accepting as the Gospel truth ideas
which are contestiable and not as "logical" as made out to be. (And,
even the Gospel is debatable these days.)

As I alleged elsewhere, it seemed to be that the otherwise
rationalistic Dr Helecar accepts Science as his religion, a God which
cannot be questioned. Now, it appears that he also places Copyright
and concepts about plagarism on an equally high altar, never to be
debated, and making suspect the potential for salvation of anyone who
differs on interpreting these issues....

Thanks, and peace. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 20:04:08 UTC
Permalink
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!

This despite the fact that one should raise questions the veracity of
your interpretation of "self-plagarism", the logic behind
self-publishing, the options to copyright, and why the CreativeCommons
project turns copyright "on its head" as it was ... by using the
concept to allow for greater shareability.
Post by Santosh Helekar
I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past?
You are twisting the issue. To say I "defend plagiarism" is to do
violence to my thoughts and arguments.

I have just:

* Argued against the idea of "intellectual property" quoting Doc Searls
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1720

* Said I don't want to violate other's copyright, but feel that
knowledge should be
shared voluntarily and readily (and will do so myself) and that we should
allow others to build on our knowledge, as we do on the knowledge of others.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1718

* I would not make a big issue of it if someone quoted my work with or without
credit. (At most, I might send a request for credit... no
'cease-and-desist' stuff)
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* Am on the lookout for business models that allow the sharing of knowledge
and surviving/thriving.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* We need to recognise that copyright laws (and patents) have reached
a ridiculous point-of-no-return.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055541.html

* The Creative Commons ideals have influenced a great many project...
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055553.html
(Flickr, Internet Archive, Wikimedia Commons, Ourmedia, deviantART,
ccMixter, Public Library of Science, Proceedings of Science,
MIT OpenCourseWare, Clinical Skills Online, MIMA Music, Wikinews,
Wikitravel, Memory Alpha, Uncyclopedia, Jurispedia, Microsoft
Developer Network and many other wikis, Groklaw, This Week in Tech,
Rocketboom, Jet Set Show, newspaperindex, 20 minutes newspaper,
OpenStreetMap, Jamendo, BeatPick, Revver, GarageBand.com, blip.tv,
Star Wreck, Elephants Dream, Bumperactive) Source: Wikipedia.
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.
Yeah, but your comment is way of target. You can't just say "I think"
and interprete an idea in any which way you choose.

Both you and Jose have an understanding of "self-plagiarism" which
goes counter to the factual position of the concept as it stands
today. Please see:

* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055576.html
(Santosh)
* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055580.html
(JC)

If there is any reason for my attempt to refute you on this issue, it
is just because we seem to be accepting as the Gospel truth ideas
which are contestiable and not as "logical" as made out to be. (And,
even the Gospel is debatable these days.)

As I alleged elsewhere, it seemed to be that the otherwise
rationalistic Dr Helecar accepts Science as his religion, a God which
cannot be questioned. Now, it appears that he also places Copyright
and concepts about plagarism on an equally high altar, never to be
debated, and making suspect the potential for salvation of anyone who
differs on interpreting these issues....

Thanks, and peace. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 20:04:08 UTC
Permalink
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!

This despite the fact that one should raise questions the veracity of
your interpretation of "self-plagarism", the logic behind
self-publishing, the options to copyright, and why the CreativeCommons
project turns copyright "on its head" as it was ... by using the
concept to allow for greater shareability.
Post by Santosh Helekar
I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past?
You are twisting the issue. To say I "defend plagiarism" is to do
violence to my thoughts and arguments.

I have just:

* Argued against the idea of "intellectual property" quoting Doc Searls
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1720

* Said I don't want to violate other's copyright, but feel that
knowledge should be
shared voluntarily and readily (and will do so myself) and that we should
allow others to build on our knowledge, as we do on the knowledge of others.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1718

* I would not make a big issue of it if someone quoted my work with or without
credit. (At most, I might send a request for credit... no
'cease-and-desist' stuff)
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* Am on the lookout for business models that allow the sharing of knowledge
and surviving/thriving.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* We need to recognise that copyright laws (and patents) have reached
a ridiculous point-of-no-return.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055541.html

* The Creative Commons ideals have influenced a great many project...
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055553.html
(Flickr, Internet Archive, Wikimedia Commons, Ourmedia, deviantART,
ccMixter, Public Library of Science, Proceedings of Science,
MIT OpenCourseWare, Clinical Skills Online, MIMA Music, Wikinews,
Wikitravel, Memory Alpha, Uncyclopedia, Jurispedia, Microsoft
Developer Network and many other wikis, Groklaw, This Week in Tech,
Rocketboom, Jet Set Show, newspaperindex, 20 minutes newspaper,
OpenStreetMap, Jamendo, BeatPick, Revver, GarageBand.com, blip.tv,
Star Wreck, Elephants Dream, Bumperactive) Source: Wikipedia.
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.
Yeah, but your comment is way of target. You can't just say "I think"
and interprete an idea in any which way you choose.

Both you and Jose have an understanding of "self-plagiarism" which
goes counter to the factual position of the concept as it stands
today. Please see:

* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055576.html
(Santosh)
* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055580.html
(JC)

If there is any reason for my attempt to refute you on this issue, it
is just because we seem to be accepting as the Gospel truth ideas
which are contestiable and not as "logical" as made out to be. (And,
even the Gospel is debatable these days.)

As I alleged elsewhere, it seemed to be that the otherwise
rationalistic Dr Helecar accepts Science as his religion, a God which
cannot be questioned. Now, it appears that he also places Copyright
and concepts about plagarism on an equally high altar, never to be
debated, and making suspect the potential for salvation of anyone who
differs on interpreting these issues....

Thanks, and peace. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 20:04:08 UTC
Permalink
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!

This despite the fact that one should raise questions the veracity of
your interpretation of "self-plagarism", the logic behind
self-publishing, the options to copyright, and why the CreativeCommons
project turns copyright "on its head" as it was ... by using the
concept to allow for greater shareability.
Post by Santosh Helekar
I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past?
You are twisting the issue. To say I "defend plagiarism" is to do
violence to my thoughts and arguments.

I have just:

* Argued against the idea of "intellectual property" quoting Doc Searls
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1720

* Said I don't want to violate other's copyright, but feel that
knowledge should be
shared voluntarily and readily (and will do so myself) and that we should
allow others to build on our knowledge, as we do on the knowledge of others.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1718

* I would not make a big issue of it if someone quoted my work with or without
credit. (At most, I might send a request for credit... no
'cease-and-desist' stuff)
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* Am on the lookout for business models that allow the sharing of knowledge
and surviving/thriving.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* We need to recognise that copyright laws (and patents) have reached
a ridiculous point-of-no-return.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055541.html

* The Creative Commons ideals have influenced a great many project...
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055553.html
(Flickr, Internet Archive, Wikimedia Commons, Ourmedia, deviantART,
ccMixter, Public Library of Science, Proceedings of Science,
MIT OpenCourseWare, Clinical Skills Online, MIMA Music, Wikinews,
Wikitravel, Memory Alpha, Uncyclopedia, Jurispedia, Microsoft
Developer Network and many other wikis, Groklaw, This Week in Tech,
Rocketboom, Jet Set Show, newspaperindex, 20 minutes newspaper,
OpenStreetMap, Jamendo, BeatPick, Revver, GarageBand.com, blip.tv,
Star Wreck, Elephants Dream, Bumperactive) Source: Wikipedia.
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.
Yeah, but your comment is way of target. You can't just say "I think"
and interprete an idea in any which way you choose.

Both you and Jose have an understanding of "self-plagiarism" which
goes counter to the factual position of the concept as it stands
today. Please see:

* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055576.html
(Santosh)
* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055580.html
(JC)

If there is any reason for my attempt to refute you on this issue, it
is just because we seem to be accepting as the Gospel truth ideas
which are contestiable and not as "logical" as made out to be. (And,
even the Gospel is debatable these days.)

As I alleged elsewhere, it seemed to be that the otherwise
rationalistic Dr Helecar accepts Science as his religion, a God which
cannot be questioned. Now, it appears that he also places Copyright
and concepts about plagarism on an equally high altar, never to be
debated, and making suspect the potential for salvation of anyone who
differs on interpreting these issues....

Thanks, and peace. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 20:04:08 UTC
Permalink
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!

This despite the fact that one should raise questions the veracity of
your interpretation of "self-plagarism", the logic behind
self-publishing, the options to copyright, and why the CreativeCommons
project turns copyright "on its head" as it was ... by using the
concept to allow for greater shareability.
Post by Santosh Helekar
I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past?
You are twisting the issue. To say I "defend plagiarism" is to do
violence to my thoughts and arguments.

I have just:

* Argued against the idea of "intellectual property" quoting Doc Searls
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1720

* Said I don't want to violate other's copyright, but feel that
knowledge should be
shared voluntarily and readily (and will do so myself) and that we should
allow others to build on our knowledge, as we do on the knowledge of others.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-research-net/message/1718

* I would not make a big issue of it if someone quoted my work with or without
credit. (At most, I might send a request for credit... no
'cease-and-desist' stuff)
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* Am on the lookout for business models that allow the sharing of knowledge
and surviving/thriving.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055515.html

* We need to recognise that copyright laws (and patents) have reached
a ridiculous point-of-no-return.
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055541.html

* The Creative Commons ideals have influenced a great many project...
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055553.html
(Flickr, Internet Archive, Wikimedia Commons, Ourmedia, deviantART,
ccMixter, Public Library of Science, Proceedings of Science,
MIT OpenCourseWare, Clinical Skills Online, MIMA Music, Wikinews,
Wikitravel, Memory Alpha, Uncyclopedia, Jurispedia, Microsoft
Developer Network and many other wikis, Groklaw, This Week in Tech,
Rocketboom, Jet Set Show, newspaperindex, 20 minutes newspaper,
OpenStreetMap, Jamendo, BeatPick, Revver, GarageBand.com, blip.tv,
Star Wreck, Elephants Dream, Bumperactive) Source: Wikipedia.
Post by Santosh Helekar
BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.
Yeah, but your comment is way of target. You can't just say "I think"
and interprete an idea in any which way you choose.

Both you and Jose have an understanding of "self-plagiarism" which
goes counter to the factual position of the concept as it stands
today. Please see:

* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055576.html
(Santosh)
* http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-March/055580.html
(JC)

If there is any reason for my attempt to refute you on this issue, it
is just because we seem to be accepting as the Gospel truth ideas
which are contestiable and not as "logical" as made out to be. (And,
even the Gospel is debatable these days.)

As I alleged elsewhere, it seemed to be that the otherwise
rationalistic Dr Helecar accepts Science as his religion, a God which
cannot be questioned. Now, it appears that he also places Copyright
and concepts about plagarism on an equally high altar, never to be
debated, and making suspect the potential for salvation of anyone who
differs on interpreting these issues....

Thanks, and peace. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 04:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

It should be quite clear to everyone that we are
debating each other on equal footing. If, as you say,
I think my views on copyright and plagiarism are
flawless, then the same must apply to you and your
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.

I have neither prevented you from voicing your views,
whatever they are, nor imposed my views on you. I have
merely emphatically stated my views, as you have. I
apologize for asking you a rhetorical question as to
whether you have plagiarized in the past. But I was
disappointed that despite the seriousness of this
issue, you were treating it as a game where Gilbert
was setting a trap for Jose and me, and you would
laugh at how we would fall into it.

I am also sorry that while you have written so much on
this topic, trying to infuse broader issues such as
copyright, and your own pet projects, I still don't
know where you stand on the specific and limited issue
of plagiarism. Put simply, I don't know whether you
would be willing to provide a straight answer to the
following questions:

1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?

2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Regarding self-plagiarism, I agree with what
Gilbert wrote in his introductory post about it,
except on his point that it is a greater offense than
plagiarism. In addition, I think that it is actually
more akin to self-promotion. Jose has provided another
definition of it in the educational field. You have
provided a Wikipedia slant, which if different might
also be true, for all I know. Regarding your innuendo
against me about science, as I have stated many times
before, you simply don't understand my position. But
that's okay.

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so
convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is
flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead
ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-27 16:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Frederick,
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.
I wouldn't plagarise anyone, and always try my best to quote sources.
But I wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit. At most, I would politely request
that credit be given.

At the same time, let us not pretend that our views are all original,
and not influenced by what we read and hear. My understanding of Goa
is shaped by the thoughts and words of the Robert Newmans, the Goa
Gazetteers, and so many of the other 2000+ books on Goa in my
collection. Let us be honest in acknowledging that "original" thoughts
and writing are often not so "original".
Post by Santosh Helekar
1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?
Yes. But please tell them that there are also other "licenses" such as
the Creative Commons Non-Attribution 2.5 license which allow you to do
precisely that. Provided the person who put it out has allowed you to
do that.
Post by Santosh Helekar
2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all knowledge? Dr Timothy
Walker has documented how the Portuguese were pilfering information
about medical plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas who had the
knowledge then. We know how Western Europe claimed to have
"discovered" America, when people lived their millenia before,

These are just two examples. But there are many, many more. Take a
look at Claude Alvares' earlier contribution on the history of science
(a god which you workship as infallable, it seems to me) at
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=history+of+science+Claude+Alvares&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&hs=AOt&um=1&oi=scholart

Pratik Chakrabarti's biography on Knowledge, Science, and Empire is
particularly interesting.

In a word, I cannot give yes-or-no answers to your questions. And
that's not because I "support" plagarism in any way, as you seek to
construe. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-27 16:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Frederick,
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.
I wouldn't plagarise anyone, and always try my best to quote sources.
But I wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit. At most, I would politely request
that credit be given.

At the same time, let us not pretend that our views are all original,
and not influenced by what we read and hear. My understanding of Goa
is shaped by the thoughts and words of the Robert Newmans, the Goa
Gazetteers, and so many of the other 2000+ books on Goa in my
collection. Let us be honest in acknowledging that "original" thoughts
and writing are often not so "original".
Post by Santosh Helekar
1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?
Yes. But please tell them that there are also other "licenses" such as
the Creative Commons Non-Attribution 2.5 license which allow you to do
precisely that. Provided the person who put it out has allowed you to
do that.
Post by Santosh Helekar
2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all knowledge? Dr Timothy
Walker has documented how the Portuguese were pilfering information
about medical plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas who had the
knowledge then. We know how Western Europe claimed to have
"discovered" America, when people lived their millenia before,

These are just two examples. But there are many, many more. Take a
look at Claude Alvares' earlier contribution on the history of science
(a god which you workship as infallable, it seems to me) at
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=history+of+science+Claude+Alvares&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&hs=AOt&um=1&oi=scholart

Pratik Chakrabarti's biography on Knowledge, Science, and Empire is
particularly interesting.

In a word, I cannot give yes-or-no answers to your questions. And
that's not because I "support" plagarism in any way, as you seek to
construe. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-27 16:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Frederick,
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.
I wouldn't plagarise anyone, and always try my best to quote sources.
But I wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit. At most, I would politely request
that credit be given.

At the same time, let us not pretend that our views are all original,
and not influenced by what we read and hear. My understanding of Goa
is shaped by the thoughts and words of the Robert Newmans, the Goa
Gazetteers, and so many of the other 2000+ books on Goa in my
collection. Let us be honest in acknowledging that "original" thoughts
and writing are often not so "original".
Post by Santosh Helekar
1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?
Yes. But please tell them that there are also other "licenses" such as
the Creative Commons Non-Attribution 2.5 license which allow you to do
precisely that. Provided the person who put it out has allowed you to
do that.
Post by Santosh Helekar
2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all knowledge? Dr Timothy
Walker has documented how the Portuguese were pilfering information
about medical plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas who had the
knowledge then. We know how Western Europe claimed to have
"discovered" America, when people lived their millenia before,

These are just two examples. But there are many, many more. Take a
look at Claude Alvares' earlier contribution on the history of science
(a god which you workship as infallable, it seems to me) at
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=history+of+science+Claude+Alvares&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&hs=AOt&um=1&oi=scholart

Pratik Chakrabarti's biography on Knowledge, Science, and Empire is
particularly interesting.

In a word, I cannot give yes-or-no answers to your questions. And
that's not because I "support" plagarism in any way, as you seek to
construe. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-27 16:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Frederick,
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.
I wouldn't plagarise anyone, and always try my best to quote sources.
But I wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit. At most, I would politely request
that credit be given.

At the same time, let us not pretend that our views are all original,
and not influenced by what we read and hear. My understanding of Goa
is shaped by the thoughts and words of the Robert Newmans, the Goa
Gazetteers, and so many of the other 2000+ books on Goa in my
collection. Let us be honest in acknowledging that "original" thoughts
and writing are often not so "original".
Post by Santosh Helekar
1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?
Yes. But please tell them that there are also other "licenses" such as
the Creative Commons Non-Attribution 2.5 license which allow you to do
precisely that. Provided the person who put it out has allowed you to
do that.
Post by Santosh Helekar
2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all knowledge? Dr Timothy
Walker has documented how the Portuguese were pilfering information
about medical plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas who had the
knowledge then. We know how Western Europe claimed to have
"discovered" America, when people lived their millenia before,

These are just two examples. But there are many, many more. Take a
look at Claude Alvares' earlier contribution on the history of science
(a god which you workship as infallable, it seems to me) at
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=history+of+science+Claude+Alvares&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&hs=AOt&um=1&oi=scholart

Pratik Chakrabarti's biography on Knowledge, Science, and Empire is
particularly interesting.

In a word, I cannot give yes-or-no answers to your questions. And
that's not because I "support" plagarism in any way, as you seek to
construe. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-27 16:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Frederick,
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.
I wouldn't plagarise anyone, and always try my best to quote sources.
But I wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit. At most, I would politely request
that credit be given.

At the same time, let us not pretend that our views are all original,
and not influenced by what we read and hear. My understanding of Goa
is shaped by the thoughts and words of the Robert Newmans, the Goa
Gazetteers, and so many of the other 2000+ books on Goa in my
collection. Let us be honest in acknowledging that "original" thoughts
and writing are often not so "original".
Post by Santosh Helekar
1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?
Yes. But please tell them that there are also other "licenses" such as
the Creative Commons Non-Attribution 2.5 license which allow you to do
precisely that. Provided the person who put it out has allowed you to
do that.
Post by Santosh Helekar
2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all knowledge? Dr Timothy
Walker has documented how the Portuguese were pilfering information
about medical plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas who had the
knowledge then. We know how Western Europe claimed to have
"discovered" America, when people lived their millenia before,

These are just two examples. But there are many, many more. Take a
look at Claude Alvares' earlier contribution on the history of science
(a god which you workship as infallable, it seems to me) at
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=history+of+science+Claude+Alvares&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&hs=AOt&um=1&oi=scholart

Pratik Chakrabarti's biography on Knowledge, Science, and Empire is
particularly interesting.

In a word, I cannot give yes-or-no answers to your questions. And
that's not because I "support" plagarism in any way, as you seek to
construe. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-27 16:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Frederick,
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.
I wouldn't plagarise anyone, and always try my best to quote sources.
But I wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit. At most, I would politely request
that credit be given.

At the same time, let us not pretend that our views are all original,
and not influenced by what we read and hear. My understanding of Goa
is shaped by the thoughts and words of the Robert Newmans, the Goa
Gazetteers, and so many of the other 2000+ books on Goa in my
collection. Let us be honest in acknowledging that "original" thoughts
and writing are often not so "original".
Post by Santosh Helekar
1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?
Yes. But please tell them that there are also other "licenses" such as
the Creative Commons Non-Attribution 2.5 license which allow you to do
precisely that. Provided the person who put it out has allowed you to
do that.
Post by Santosh Helekar
2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all knowledge? Dr Timothy
Walker has documented how the Portuguese were pilfering information
about medical plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas who had the
knowledge then. We know how Western Europe claimed to have
"discovered" America, when people lived their millenia before,

These are just two examples. But there are many, many more. Take a
look at Claude Alvares' earlier contribution on the history of science
(a god which you workship as infallable, it seems to me) at
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=history+of+science+Claude+Alvares&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&hs=AOt&um=1&oi=scholart

Pratik Chakrabarti's biography on Knowledge, Science, and Empire is
particularly interesting.

In a word, I cannot give yes-or-no answers to your questions. And
that's not because I "support" plagarism in any way, as you seek to
construe. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-27 16:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Frederick,
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.
I wouldn't plagarise anyone, and always try my best to quote sources.
But I wouldn't make a big issue if someone chose to reproduce my
writing, with or without credit. At most, I would politely request
that credit be given.

At the same time, let us not pretend that our views are all original,
and not influenced by what we read and hear. My understanding of Goa
is shaped by the thoughts and words of the Robert Newmans, the Goa
Gazetteers, and so many of the other 2000+ books on Goa in my
collection. Let us be honest in acknowledging that "original" thoughts
and writing are often not so "original".
Post by Santosh Helekar
1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?
Yes. But please tell them that there are also other "licenses" such as
the Creative Commons Non-Attribution 2.5 license which allow you to do
precisely that. Provided the person who put it out has allowed you to
do that.
Post by Santosh Helekar
2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all knowledge? Dr Timothy
Walker has documented how the Portuguese were pilfering information
about medical plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas who had the
knowledge then. We know how Western Europe claimed to have
"discovered" America, when people lived their millenia before,

These are just two examples. But there are many, many more. Take a
look at Claude Alvares' earlier contribution on the history of science
(a god which you workship as infallable, it seems to me) at
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=history+of+science+Claude+Alvares&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&hs=AOt&um=1&oi=scholart

Pratik Chakrabarti's biography on Knowledge, Science, and Empire is
particularly interesting.

In a word, I cannot give yes-or-no answers to your questions. And
that's not because I "support" plagarism in any way, as you seek to
construe. FN
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-28 05:23:30 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
At the same time, let us not pretend that our views
are all original, and not influenced by what we read
and hear.
Moving on from the issue of plagiarism to originality,
I don't have to pretend. I can see plenty of
originality around me everywhere I go, and in all
creative disciplines - music, art, literature,
mathematics, science, etc. Without the creative spark
of gifted individuals the world would not have been
what it is today.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all
knowledge? Dr Timothy Walker has documented how the
Portuguese were pilfering information about medical
plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas
who had the knowledge then. We know how Western
Europe >claimed to have "discovered" America, when
people >lived their millenia before,
It is my view, and I am sure, that of many other
people that we should not allow history to repeat
itself.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
These are just two examples. But there are many,
many more. Take a look at Claude Alvares' earlier
contribution on the history of science (a god which
you workship as infallable, it seems to
me) ................
All of this only seems that way to you. The reality is
entirely different. In reality the history of science
is replete with a dazzling display of a long string of
breathtaking original insights about the natural
world. In most cases these were strokes of pure genius
combined with perseverance, recognizing the fact that
each new generation of giants were "riding on the
shoulders of" those before them. And in every single
case success was built upon fallibility.

Cheers,

Santosh
Jose Colaco
2007-03-23 22:16:19 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert Lawrence wrote:

Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers -
not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at
Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of
plagiarizing.
==


jc's response:

Dear Gilbert,

WRT the questions you asked of me, here are my answers.


Your Questions are numbered 1-19; My answers as jc 1 - jc 19


1: This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our
hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer
Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures.
There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened
to this impressive presentation.

jc 1: I am glad I made you think

--

2: Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done
at other teaching hospitals?

jc 2: I don't know about anybody else, but I would NOT present anything
without references

--

3: Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the
facts he presented?

jc 3: As I do not know the medical student in question, I would not be able
to ask him/her that question. He/She is the only one who can answer that
question.

--

4: Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they
get their training in the Bahamas?

jc 4: Every single Pediatric presentation which takes place every Friday -
lists the sources.

--

5: Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published
data?
6: Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?

jc 5 & 6: I would not know

--

7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information

--

8: When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of
which are not your original work?

jc 8: Yes. BUT I will NEVER PUBLISH ANYTHING without references.

--

9: If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students
to use it or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 9: I would certainly allow them to use it BUT if they PUBLISH it, they
will have to give me credit for it, As an Example: please vide the foot of
this URL - reference 2 in
http://www.jpgn.org/pt/re/jpgn/fulltext.00005176-199811000-00004.htm;jsessionid=GCPM7SQhMV1L1QyjPLMhdbG9q1vHG2zxtTslW1hSBK2R0hsfTqpl!1570379021!-949856144!8091!-1
or reference 51 in this one
http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/18/5/646

--

10: If one does not want the students to use the facts and information
provided, why does one teach?

jc 10: One teaches to improve knowledge NOT to steal

--

11: Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to
present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?

jc 11: They should be - but NOT as if it is their own material

--

12: If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?

jc 12: Yes. Every time they PUBLISH, they should give credit where one is
due.

--

13: Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the
authors' ideas?

14: Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one
cannot use the information gained from the book?

jc 13 & 14: These are irrelevant to the topic of Plagiarism aka Thiefing

--

15: If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount
historical events or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 15: I submit that one CANNOT recount historical events one has not
witnessed unless one makes references to the work of others.

--

16: Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have
references?

jc 16: If they contain the work of others? YES!

--

17: I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these
specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers.

jc 17: I cannot promise you intellectual answers. I am not an intellectual.
BUT, I will promise you unplagiarised responses.

--

18: If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's
and my last post.

jc 18: Whatever

--

19: As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because
many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth
being dignified with a response.

jc 19: Sure ....but the topic here is Plagiarising. Interesting isn't it
that 'many on Goanet have stopped dialouging with (me), because many of (my)
responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified
with a response' BUT you still generously condescended to write to me


The last word is yours for the taking.

Sincerely

jc
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 08:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below... as mentioned. FN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagarism#Self-plagiarism
Post by Jose Colaco
7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?
jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-24 14:45:45 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card
close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a
trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If
you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below...
as mentioned. FN
Frederick,

I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past? BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 04:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

It should be quite clear to everyone that we are
debating each other on equal footing. If, as you say,
I think my views on copyright and plagiarism are
flawless, then the same must apply to you and your
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.

I have neither prevented you from voicing your views,
whatever they are, nor imposed my views on you. I have
merely emphatically stated my views, as you have. I
apologize for asking you a rhetorical question as to
whether you have plagiarized in the past. But I was
disappointed that despite the seriousness of this
issue, you were treating it as a game where Gilbert
was setting a trap for Jose and me, and you would
laugh at how we would fall into it.

I am also sorry that while you have written so much on
this topic, trying to infuse broader issues such as
copyright, and your own pet projects, I still don't
know where you stand on the specific and limited issue
of plagiarism. Put simply, I don't know whether you
would be willing to provide a straight answer to the
following questions:

1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?

2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Regarding self-plagiarism, I agree with what
Gilbert wrote in his introductory post about it,
except on his point that it is a greater offense than
plagiarism. In addition, I think that it is actually
more akin to self-promotion. Jose has provided another
definition of it in the educational field. You have
provided a Wikipedia slant, which if different might
also be true, for all I know. Regarding your innuendo
against me about science, as I have stated many times
before, you simply don't understand my position. But
that's okay.

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so
convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is
flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead
ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-28 05:23:30 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
At the same time, let us not pretend that our views
are all original, and not influenced by what we read
and hear.
Moving on from the issue of plagiarism to originality,
I don't have to pretend. I can see plenty of
originality around me everywhere I go, and in all
creative disciplines - music, art, literature,
mathematics, science, etc. Without the creative spark
of gifted individuals the world would not have been
what it is today.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all
knowledge? Dr Timothy Walker has documented how the
Portuguese were pilfering information about medical
plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas
who had the knowledge then. We know how Western
Europe >claimed to have "discovered" America, when
people >lived their millenia before,
It is my view, and I am sure, that of many other
people that we should not allow history to repeat
itself.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
These are just two examples. But there are many,
many more. Take a look at Claude Alvares' earlier
contribution on the history of science (a god which
you workship as infallable, it seems to
me) ................
All of this only seems that way to you. The reality is
entirely different. In reality the history of science
is replete with a dazzling display of a long string of
breathtaking original insights about the natural
world. In most cases these were strokes of pure genius
combined with perseverance, recognizing the fact that
each new generation of giants were "riding on the
shoulders of" those before them. And in every single
case success was built upon fallibility.

Cheers,

Santosh
Jose Colaco
2007-03-23 22:16:19 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert Lawrence wrote:

Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers -
not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at
Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of
plagiarizing.
==


jc's response:

Dear Gilbert,

WRT the questions you asked of me, here are my answers.


Your Questions are numbered 1-19; My answers as jc 1 - jc 19


1: This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our
hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer
Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures.
There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened
to this impressive presentation.

jc 1: I am glad I made you think

--

2: Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done
at other teaching hospitals?

jc 2: I don't know about anybody else, but I would NOT present anything
without references

--

3: Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the
facts he presented?

jc 3: As I do not know the medical student in question, I would not be able
to ask him/her that question. He/She is the only one who can answer that
question.

--

4: Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they
get their training in the Bahamas?

jc 4: Every single Pediatric presentation which takes place every Friday -
lists the sources.

--

5: Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published
data?
6: Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?

jc 5 & 6: I would not know

--

7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information

--

8: When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of
which are not your original work?

jc 8: Yes. BUT I will NEVER PUBLISH ANYTHING without references.

--

9: If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students
to use it or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 9: I would certainly allow them to use it BUT if they PUBLISH it, they
will have to give me credit for it, As an Example: please vide the foot of
this URL - reference 2 in
http://www.jpgn.org/pt/re/jpgn/fulltext.00005176-199811000-00004.htm;jsessionid=GCPM7SQhMV1L1QyjPLMhdbG9q1vHG2zxtTslW1hSBK2R0hsfTqpl!1570379021!-949856144!8091!-1
or reference 51 in this one
http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/18/5/646

--

10: If one does not want the students to use the facts and information
provided, why does one teach?

jc 10: One teaches to improve knowledge NOT to steal

--

11: Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to
present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?

jc 11: They should be - but NOT as if it is their own material

--

12: If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?

jc 12: Yes. Every time they PUBLISH, they should give credit where one is
due.

--

13: Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the
authors' ideas?

14: Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one
cannot use the information gained from the book?

jc 13 & 14: These are irrelevant to the topic of Plagiarism aka Thiefing

--

15: If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount
historical events or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 15: I submit that one CANNOT recount historical events one has not
witnessed unless one makes references to the work of others.

--

16: Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have
references?

jc 16: If they contain the work of others? YES!

--

17: I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these
specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers.

jc 17: I cannot promise you intellectual answers. I am not an intellectual.
BUT, I will promise you unplagiarised responses.

--

18: If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's
and my last post.

jc 18: Whatever

--

19: As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because
many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth
being dignified with a response.

jc 19: Sure ....but the topic here is Plagiarising. Interesting isn't it
that 'many on Goanet have stopped dialouging with (me), because many of (my)
responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified
with a response' BUT you still generously condescended to write to me


The last word is yours for the taking.

Sincerely

jc
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 08:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below... as mentioned. FN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagarism#Self-plagiarism
Post by Jose Colaco
7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?
jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-24 14:45:45 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card
close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a
trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If
you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below...
as mentioned. FN
Frederick,

I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past? BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 04:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

It should be quite clear to everyone that we are
debating each other on equal footing. If, as you say,
I think my views on copyright and plagiarism are
flawless, then the same must apply to you and your
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.

I have neither prevented you from voicing your views,
whatever they are, nor imposed my views on you. I have
merely emphatically stated my views, as you have. I
apologize for asking you a rhetorical question as to
whether you have plagiarized in the past. But I was
disappointed that despite the seriousness of this
issue, you were treating it as a game where Gilbert
was setting a trap for Jose and me, and you would
laugh at how we would fall into it.

I am also sorry that while you have written so much on
this topic, trying to infuse broader issues such as
copyright, and your own pet projects, I still don't
know where you stand on the specific and limited issue
of plagiarism. Put simply, I don't know whether you
would be willing to provide a straight answer to the
following questions:

1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?

2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Regarding self-plagiarism, I agree with what
Gilbert wrote in his introductory post about it,
except on his point that it is a greater offense than
plagiarism. In addition, I think that it is actually
more akin to self-promotion. Jose has provided another
definition of it in the educational field. You have
provided a Wikipedia slant, which if different might
also be true, for all I know. Regarding your innuendo
against me about science, as I have stated many times
before, you simply don't understand my position. But
that's okay.

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so
convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is
flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead
ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-28 05:23:30 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
At the same time, let us not pretend that our views
are all original, and not influenced by what we read
and hear.
Moving on from the issue of plagiarism to originality,
I don't have to pretend. I can see plenty of
originality around me everywhere I go, and in all
creative disciplines - music, art, literature,
mathematics, science, etc. Without the creative spark
of gifted individuals the world would not have been
what it is today.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all
knowledge? Dr Timothy Walker has documented how the
Portuguese were pilfering information about medical
plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas
who had the knowledge then. We know how Western
Europe >claimed to have "discovered" America, when
people >lived their millenia before,
It is my view, and I am sure, that of many other
people that we should not allow history to repeat
itself.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
These are just two examples. But there are many,
many more. Take a look at Claude Alvares' earlier
contribution on the history of science (a god which
you workship as infallable, it seems to
me) ................
All of this only seems that way to you. The reality is
entirely different. In reality the history of science
is replete with a dazzling display of a long string of
breathtaking original insights about the natural
world. In most cases these were strokes of pure genius
combined with perseverance, recognizing the fact that
each new generation of giants were "riding on the
shoulders of" those before them. And in every single
case success was built upon fallibility.

Cheers,

Santosh
Jose Colaco
2007-03-23 22:16:19 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert Lawrence wrote:

Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers -
not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at
Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of
plagiarizing.
==


jc's response:

Dear Gilbert,

WRT the questions you asked of me, here are my answers.


Your Questions are numbered 1-19; My answers as jc 1 - jc 19


1: This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our
hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer
Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures.
There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened
to this impressive presentation.

jc 1: I am glad I made you think

--

2: Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done
at other teaching hospitals?

jc 2: I don't know about anybody else, but I would NOT present anything
without references

--

3: Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the
facts he presented?

jc 3: As I do not know the medical student in question, I would not be able
to ask him/her that question. He/She is the only one who can answer that
question.

--

4: Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they
get their training in the Bahamas?

jc 4: Every single Pediatric presentation which takes place every Friday -
lists the sources.

--

5: Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published
data?
6: Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?

jc 5 & 6: I would not know

--

7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information

--

8: When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of
which are not your original work?

jc 8: Yes. BUT I will NEVER PUBLISH ANYTHING without references.

--

9: If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students
to use it or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 9: I would certainly allow them to use it BUT if they PUBLISH it, they
will have to give me credit for it, As an Example: please vide the foot of
this URL - reference 2 in
http://www.jpgn.org/pt/re/jpgn/fulltext.00005176-199811000-00004.htm;jsessionid=GCPM7SQhMV1L1QyjPLMhdbG9q1vHG2zxtTslW1hSBK2R0hsfTqpl!1570379021!-949856144!8091!-1
or reference 51 in this one
http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/18/5/646

--

10: If one does not want the students to use the facts and information
provided, why does one teach?

jc 10: One teaches to improve knowledge NOT to steal

--

11: Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to
present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?

jc 11: They should be - but NOT as if it is their own material

--

12: If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?

jc 12: Yes. Every time they PUBLISH, they should give credit where one is
due.

--

13: Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the
authors' ideas?

14: Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one
cannot use the information gained from the book?

jc 13 & 14: These are irrelevant to the topic of Plagiarism aka Thiefing

--

15: If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount
historical events or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 15: I submit that one CANNOT recount historical events one has not
witnessed unless one makes references to the work of others.

--

16: Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have
references?

jc 16: If they contain the work of others? YES!

--

17: I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these
specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers.

jc 17: I cannot promise you intellectual answers. I am not an intellectual.
BUT, I will promise you unplagiarised responses.

--

18: If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's
and my last post.

jc 18: Whatever

--

19: As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because
many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth
being dignified with a response.

jc 19: Sure ....but the topic here is Plagiarising. Interesting isn't it
that 'many on Goanet have stopped dialouging with (me), because many of (my)
responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified
with a response' BUT you still generously condescended to write to me


The last word is yours for the taking.

Sincerely

jc
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 08:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below... as mentioned. FN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagarism#Self-plagiarism
Post by Jose Colaco
7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?
jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-24 14:45:45 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card
close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a
trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If
you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below...
as mentioned. FN
Frederick,

I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past? BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 04:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

It should be quite clear to everyone that we are
debating each other on equal footing. If, as you say,
I think my views on copyright and plagiarism are
flawless, then the same must apply to you and your
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.

I have neither prevented you from voicing your views,
whatever they are, nor imposed my views on you. I have
merely emphatically stated my views, as you have. I
apologize for asking you a rhetorical question as to
whether you have plagiarized in the past. But I was
disappointed that despite the seriousness of this
issue, you were treating it as a game where Gilbert
was setting a trap for Jose and me, and you would
laugh at how we would fall into it.

I am also sorry that while you have written so much on
this topic, trying to infuse broader issues such as
copyright, and your own pet projects, I still don't
know where you stand on the specific and limited issue
of plagiarism. Put simply, I don't know whether you
would be willing to provide a straight answer to the
following questions:

1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?

2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Regarding self-plagiarism, I agree with what
Gilbert wrote in his introductory post about it,
except on his point that it is a greater offense than
plagiarism. In addition, I think that it is actually
more akin to self-promotion. Jose has provided another
definition of it in the educational field. You have
provided a Wikipedia slant, which if different might
also be true, for all I know. Regarding your innuendo
against me about science, as I have stated many times
before, you simply don't understand my position. But
that's okay.

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so
convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is
flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead
ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-28 05:23:30 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
At the same time, let us not pretend that our views
are all original, and not influenced by what we read
and hear.
Moving on from the issue of plagiarism to originality,
I don't have to pretend. I can see plenty of
originality around me everywhere I go, and in all
creative disciplines - music, art, literature,
mathematics, science, etc. Without the creative spark
of gifted individuals the world would not have been
what it is today.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all
knowledge? Dr Timothy Walker has documented how the
Portuguese were pilfering information about medical
plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas
who had the knowledge then. We know how Western
Europe >claimed to have "discovered" America, when
people >lived their millenia before,
It is my view, and I am sure, that of many other
people that we should not allow history to repeat
itself.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
These are just two examples. But there are many,
many more. Take a look at Claude Alvares' earlier
contribution on the history of science (a god which
you workship as infallable, it seems to
me) ................
All of this only seems that way to you. The reality is
entirely different. In reality the history of science
is replete with a dazzling display of a long string of
breathtaking original insights about the natural
world. In most cases these were strokes of pure genius
combined with perseverance, recognizing the fact that
each new generation of giants were "riding on the
shoulders of" those before them. And in every single
case success was built upon fallibility.

Cheers,

Santosh
Jose Colaco
2007-03-23 22:16:19 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert Lawrence wrote:

Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers -
not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at
Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of
plagiarizing.
==


jc's response:

Dear Gilbert,

WRT the questions you asked of me, here are my answers.


Your Questions are numbered 1-19; My answers as jc 1 - jc 19


1: This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our
hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer
Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures.
There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened
to this impressive presentation.

jc 1: I am glad I made you think

--

2: Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done
at other teaching hospitals?

jc 2: I don't know about anybody else, but I would NOT present anything
without references

--

3: Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the
facts he presented?

jc 3: As I do not know the medical student in question, I would not be able
to ask him/her that question. He/She is the only one who can answer that
question.

--

4: Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they
get their training in the Bahamas?

jc 4: Every single Pediatric presentation which takes place every Friday -
lists the sources.

--

5: Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published
data?
6: Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?

jc 5 & 6: I would not know

--

7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information

--

8: When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of
which are not your original work?

jc 8: Yes. BUT I will NEVER PUBLISH ANYTHING without references.

--

9: If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students
to use it or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 9: I would certainly allow them to use it BUT if they PUBLISH it, they
will have to give me credit for it, As an Example: please vide the foot of
this URL - reference 2 in
http://www.jpgn.org/pt/re/jpgn/fulltext.00005176-199811000-00004.htm;jsessionid=GCPM7SQhMV1L1QyjPLMhdbG9q1vHG2zxtTslW1hSBK2R0hsfTqpl!1570379021!-949856144!8091!-1
or reference 51 in this one
http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/18/5/646

--

10: If one does not want the students to use the facts and information
provided, why does one teach?

jc 10: One teaches to improve knowledge NOT to steal

--

11: Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to
present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?

jc 11: They should be - but NOT as if it is their own material

--

12: If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?

jc 12: Yes. Every time they PUBLISH, they should give credit where one is
due.

--

13: Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the
authors' ideas?

14: Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one
cannot use the information gained from the book?

jc 13 & 14: These are irrelevant to the topic of Plagiarism aka Thiefing

--

15: If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount
historical events or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 15: I submit that one CANNOT recount historical events one has not
witnessed unless one makes references to the work of others.

--

16: Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have
references?

jc 16: If they contain the work of others? YES!

--

17: I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these
specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers.

jc 17: I cannot promise you intellectual answers. I am not an intellectual.
BUT, I will promise you unplagiarised responses.

--

18: If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's
and my last post.

jc 18: Whatever

--

19: As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because
many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth
being dignified with a response.

jc 19: Sure ....but the topic here is Plagiarising. Interesting isn't it
that 'many on Goanet have stopped dialouging with (me), because many of (my)
responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified
with a response' BUT you still generously condescended to write to me


The last word is yours for the taking.

Sincerely

jc
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 08:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below... as mentioned. FN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagarism#Self-plagiarism
Post by Jose Colaco
7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?
jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-24 14:45:45 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card
close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a
trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If
you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below...
as mentioned. FN
Frederick,

I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past? BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 04:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

It should be quite clear to everyone that we are
debating each other on equal footing. If, as you say,
I think my views on copyright and plagiarism are
flawless, then the same must apply to you and your
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.

I have neither prevented you from voicing your views,
whatever they are, nor imposed my views on you. I have
merely emphatically stated my views, as you have. I
apologize for asking you a rhetorical question as to
whether you have plagiarized in the past. But I was
disappointed that despite the seriousness of this
issue, you were treating it as a game where Gilbert
was setting a trap for Jose and me, and you would
laugh at how we would fall into it.

I am also sorry that while you have written so much on
this topic, trying to infuse broader issues such as
copyright, and your own pet projects, I still don't
know where you stand on the specific and limited issue
of plagiarism. Put simply, I don't know whether you
would be willing to provide a straight answer to the
following questions:

1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?

2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Regarding self-plagiarism, I agree with what
Gilbert wrote in his introductory post about it,
except on his point that it is a greater offense than
plagiarism. In addition, I think that it is actually
more akin to self-promotion. Jose has provided another
definition of it in the educational field. You have
provided a Wikipedia slant, which if different might
also be true, for all I know. Regarding your innuendo
against me about science, as I have stated many times
before, you simply don't understand my position. But
that's okay.

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so
convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is
flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead
ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-28 05:23:30 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
At the same time, let us not pretend that our views
are all original, and not influenced by what we read
and hear.
Moving on from the issue of plagiarism to originality,
I don't have to pretend. I can see plenty of
originality around me everywhere I go, and in all
creative disciplines - music, art, literature,
mathematics, science, etc. Without the creative spark
of gifted individuals the world would not have been
what it is today.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all
knowledge? Dr Timothy Walker has documented how the
Portuguese were pilfering information about medical
plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas
who had the knowledge then. We know how Western
Europe >claimed to have "discovered" America, when
people >lived their millenia before,
It is my view, and I am sure, that of many other
people that we should not allow history to repeat
itself.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
These are just two examples. But there are many,
many more. Take a look at Claude Alvares' earlier
contribution on the history of science (a god which
you workship as infallable, it seems to
me) ................
All of this only seems that way to you. The reality is
entirely different. In reality the history of science
is replete with a dazzling display of a long string of
breathtaking original insights about the natural
world. In most cases these were strokes of pure genius
combined with perseverance, recognizing the fact that
each new generation of giants were "riding on the
shoulders of" those before them. And in every single
case success was built upon fallibility.

Cheers,

Santosh
Jose Colaco
2007-03-23 22:16:19 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert Lawrence wrote:

Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers -
not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at
Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of
plagiarizing.
==


jc's response:

Dear Gilbert,

WRT the questions you asked of me, here are my answers.


Your Questions are numbered 1-19; My answers as jc 1 - jc 19


1: This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our
hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer
Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures.
There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened
to this impressive presentation.

jc 1: I am glad I made you think

--

2: Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done
at other teaching hospitals?

jc 2: I don't know about anybody else, but I would NOT present anything
without references

--

3: Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the
facts he presented?

jc 3: As I do not know the medical student in question, I would not be able
to ask him/her that question. He/She is the only one who can answer that
question.

--

4: Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they
get their training in the Bahamas?

jc 4: Every single Pediatric presentation which takes place every Friday -
lists the sources.

--

5: Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published
data?
6: Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?

jc 5 & 6: I would not know

--

7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information

--

8: When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of
which are not your original work?

jc 8: Yes. BUT I will NEVER PUBLISH ANYTHING without references.

--

9: If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students
to use it or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 9: I would certainly allow them to use it BUT if they PUBLISH it, they
will have to give me credit for it, As an Example: please vide the foot of
this URL - reference 2 in
http://www.jpgn.org/pt/re/jpgn/fulltext.00005176-199811000-00004.htm;jsessionid=GCPM7SQhMV1L1QyjPLMhdbG9q1vHG2zxtTslW1hSBK2R0hsfTqpl!1570379021!-949856144!8091!-1
or reference 51 in this one
http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/18/5/646

--

10: If one does not want the students to use the facts and information
provided, why does one teach?

jc 10: One teaches to improve knowledge NOT to steal

--

11: Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to
present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?

jc 11: They should be - but NOT as if it is their own material

--

12: If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?

jc 12: Yes. Every time they PUBLISH, they should give credit where one is
due.

--

13: Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the
authors' ideas?

14: Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one
cannot use the information gained from the book?

jc 13 & 14: These are irrelevant to the topic of Plagiarism aka Thiefing

--

15: If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount
historical events or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 15: I submit that one CANNOT recount historical events one has not
witnessed unless one makes references to the work of others.

--

16: Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have
references?

jc 16: If they contain the work of others? YES!

--

17: I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these
specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers.

jc 17: I cannot promise you intellectual answers. I am not an intellectual.
BUT, I will promise you unplagiarised responses.

--

18: If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's
and my last post.

jc 18: Whatever

--

19: As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because
many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth
being dignified with a response.

jc 19: Sure ....but the topic here is Plagiarising. Interesting isn't it
that 'many on Goanet have stopped dialouging with (me), because many of (my)
responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified
with a response' BUT you still generously condescended to write to me


The last word is yours for the taking.

Sincerely

jc
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 08:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below... as mentioned. FN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagarism#Self-plagiarism
Post by Jose Colaco
7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?
jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-24 14:45:45 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card
close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a
trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If
you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below...
as mentioned. FN
Frederick,

I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past? BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 04:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

It should be quite clear to everyone that we are
debating each other on equal footing. If, as you say,
I think my views on copyright and plagiarism are
flawless, then the same must apply to you and your
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.

I have neither prevented you from voicing your views,
whatever they are, nor imposed my views on you. I have
merely emphatically stated my views, as you have. I
apologize for asking you a rhetorical question as to
whether you have plagiarized in the past. But I was
disappointed that despite the seriousness of this
issue, you were treating it as a game where Gilbert
was setting a trap for Jose and me, and you would
laugh at how we would fall into it.

I am also sorry that while you have written so much on
this topic, trying to infuse broader issues such as
copyright, and your own pet projects, I still don't
know where you stand on the specific and limited issue
of plagiarism. Put simply, I don't know whether you
would be willing to provide a straight answer to the
following questions:

1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?

2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Regarding self-plagiarism, I agree with what
Gilbert wrote in his introductory post about it,
except on his point that it is a greater offense than
plagiarism. In addition, I think that it is actually
more akin to self-promotion. Jose has provided another
definition of it in the educational field. You have
provided a Wikipedia slant, which if different might
also be true, for all I know. Regarding your innuendo
against me about science, as I have stated many times
before, you simply don't understand my position. But
that's okay.

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so
convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is
flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead
ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-28 05:23:30 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
At the same time, let us not pretend that our views
are all original, and not influenced by what we read
and hear.
Moving on from the issue of plagiarism to originality,
I don't have to pretend. I can see plenty of
originality around me everywhere I go, and in all
creative disciplines - music, art, literature,
mathematics, science, etc. Without the creative spark
of gifted individuals the world would not have been
what it is today.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all
knowledge? Dr Timothy Walker has documented how the
Portuguese were pilfering information about medical
plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas
who had the knowledge then. We know how Western
Europe >claimed to have "discovered" America, when
people >lived their millenia before,
It is my view, and I am sure, that of many other
people that we should not allow history to repeat
itself.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
These are just two examples. But there are many,
many more. Take a look at Claude Alvares' earlier
contribution on the history of science (a god which
you workship as infallable, it seems to
me) ................
All of this only seems that way to you. The reality is
entirely different. In reality the history of science
is replete with a dazzling display of a long string of
breathtaking original insights about the natural
world. In most cases these were strokes of pure genius
combined with perseverance, recognizing the fact that
each new generation of giants were "riding on the
shoulders of" those before them. And in every single
case success was built upon fallibility.

Cheers,

Santosh
Jose Colaco
2007-03-23 22:16:19 UTC
Permalink
Gilbert Lawrence wrote:

Hi Jose,
I have some questions to ask you for which I would like studied answers -
not your burst of unrelated statements. This should help the students at
Cornell University etc., who you and Santosh suggest / accuse of
plagiarizing.
==


jc's response:

Dear Gilbert,

WRT the questions you asked of me, here are my answers.


Your Questions are numbered 1-19; My answers as jc 1 - jc 19


1: This afternoon I attended our weekly medical staff Grand-Rounds at our
hospital. A final-year medical student made a presentation on Alzheimer
Disease. His power-point slides (about 50) had a lot of data and pictures.
There were absolutely no references. I was thinking about you, as I listened
to this impressive presentation.

jc 1: I am glad I made you think

--

2: Is the above presentation any different from a medical presentation done
at other teaching hospitals?

jc 2: I don't know about anybody else, but I would NOT present anything
without references

--

3: Did this medical student do any / all this original research about the
facts he presented?

jc 3: As I do not know the medical student in question, I would not be able
to ask him/her that question. He/She is the only one who can answer that
question.

--

4: Do your medical students do the same, if not please enlighten how they
get their training in the Bahamas?

jc 4: Every single Pediatric presentation which takes place every Friday -
lists the sources.

--

5: Was the researched material of this presentation confined to published
data?
6: Is that type of "distilled" information what the audience wants to hear?

jc 5 & 6: I would not know

--

7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?

jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information

--

8: When you teach students, do you present information and facts, most of
which are not your original work?

jc 8: Yes. BUT I will NEVER PUBLISH ANYTHING without references.

--

9: If they happen to be your original work, would you permit your students
to use it or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 9: I would certainly allow them to use it BUT if they PUBLISH it, they
will have to give me credit for it, As an Example: please vide the foot of
this URL - reference 2 in
http://www.jpgn.org/pt/re/jpgn/fulltext.00005176-199811000-00004.htm;jsessionid=GCPM7SQhMV1L1QyjPLMhdbG9q1vHG2zxtTslW1hSBK2R0hsfTqpl!1570379021!-949856144!8091!-1
or reference 51 in this one
http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/18/5/646

--

10: If one does not want the students to use the facts and information
provided, why does one teach?

jc 10: One teaches to improve knowledge NOT to steal

--

11: Should med. students, residents and other doctors not be allowed to
present the info from textbooks and journals they research and study?

jc 11: They should be - but NOT as if it is their own material

--

12: If they do so, should they be giving reference for every item of fact?

jc 12: Yes. Every time they PUBLISH, they should give credit where one is
due.

--

13: Why would one spend time reading medical books if not to gain from the
authors' ideas?

14: Why would one pay an author and publisher to buy a textbook if one
cannot use the information gained from the book?

jc 13 & 14: These are irrelevant to the topic of Plagiarism aka Thiefing

--

15: If one is not a physical eyewitness to history, can one recount
historical events or would that be plagiarized information?

jc 15: I submit that one CANNOT recount historical events one has not
witnessed unless one makes references to the work of others.

--

16: Should articles in Time, Newsweek magazines and newspapers have
references?

jc 16: If they contain the work of others? YES!

--

17: I am not interested in off-the-top responses that do not address these
specific issues. Please give some thoughtful and intellectual answers.

jc 17: I cannot promise you intellectual answers. I am not an intellectual.
BUT, I will promise you unplagiarised responses.

--

18: If you cannot, perhaps you can save your efforts and make this your's
and my last post.

jc 18: Whatever

--

19: As you know, many on Goanet have stopped dialoguing with you, because
many of your responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth
being dignified with a response.

jc 19: Sure ....but the topic here is Plagiarising. Interesting isn't it
that 'many on Goanet have stopped dialouging with (me), because many of (my)
responses and comments are just off-the-wall and not worth being dignified
with a response' BUT you still generously condescended to write to me


The last word is yours for the taking.

Sincerely

jc
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-24 08:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below... as mentioned. FN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagarism#Self-plagiarism
Post by Jose Colaco
7: Was this medical student plagiarizing his data, facts and information?
jc 7: A person cannot plagiarise his (own) data, facts and information
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
What bloggers are saying about Goa: http://planet.goa-india.org/
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-24 14:45:45 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Obviously Gilbert has been keeping his trump card
close to his chest,
and letting others like Santosh and Jose walk into a
trap of his
making... well, you can self-plagiarise yourself! If
you go by the
current orthodoxy at least. Check the URL below...
as mentioned. FN
Frederick,

I fail to understand why you and Gilbert are trying to
find all kinds of ways to defend plagiarism. Have you
plagiarized anything in the past? BTW, it is you who
has fallen into the trap. I have already commented on
self-plagiarism.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-26 04:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Frederick,

It should be quite clear to everyone that we are
debating each other on equal footing. If, as you say,
I think my views on copyright and plagiarism are
flawless, then the same must apply to you and your
views. Actually, the way I see it I think I agree with
you on the issue of copyright. But I am not sure what
your view is on plagiarism because you have never
stated it clearly.

I have neither prevented you from voicing your views,
whatever they are, nor imposed my views on you. I have
merely emphatically stated my views, as you have. I
apologize for asking you a rhetorical question as to
whether you have plagiarized in the past. But I was
disappointed that despite the seriousness of this
issue, you were treating it as a game where Gilbert
was setting a trap for Jose and me, and you would
laugh at how we would fall into it.

I am also sorry that while you have written so much on
this topic, trying to infuse broader issues such as
copyright, and your own pet projects, I still don't
know where you stand on the specific and limited issue
of plagiarism. Put simply, I don't know whether you
would be willing to provide a straight answer to the
following questions:

1. Should we tell our students that it is bad to copy
from others without giving them proper credit?

2. Should we be concerned that in this time of easy
access to the internet that people are lifting
material verbatim from all kinds of websites, both
authentic and bogus, and presenting it as their own in
forums such as this one?

Cheers,

Santosh

P.S. Regarding self-plagiarism, I agree with what
Gilbert wrote in his introductory post about it,
except on his point that it is a greater offense than
plagiarism. In addition, I think that it is actually
more akin to self-promotion. Jose has provided another
definition of it in the educational field. You have
provided a Wikipedia slant, which if different might
also be true, for all I know. Regarding your innuendo
against me about science, as I have stated many times
before, you simply don't understand my position. But
that's okay.

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
What you say below is a strange argument. You're so
convinced that
your own perspective on copyright and plagarism is
flawless that you
refuse to see another point of view, and instead
ascribe motives to
people who think differently from you!
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-28 05:23:30 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
At the same time, let us not pretend that our views
are all original, and not influenced by what we read
and hear.
Moving on from the issue of plagiarism to originality,
I don't have to pretend. I can see plenty of
originality around me everywhere I go, and in all
creative disciplines - music, art, literature,
mathematics, science, etc. Without the creative spark
of gifted individuals the world would not have been
what it is today.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Maybe. But hasn't this been the history of all
knowledge? Dr Timothy Walker has documented how the
Portuguese were pilfering information about medical
plants in Asia in the 16th and 17th century... not
bothering to credit the unknown and unsung vaidyas
who had the knowledge then. We know how Western
Europe >claimed to have "discovered" America, when
people >lived their millenia before,
It is my view, and I am sure, that of many other
people that we should not allow history to repeat
itself.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
These are just two examples. But there are many,
many more. Take a look at Claude Alvares' earlier
contribution on the history of science (a god which
you workship as infallable, it seems to
me) ................
All of this only seems that way to you. The reality is
entirely different. In reality the history of science
is replete with a dazzling display of a long string of
breathtaking original insights about the natural
world. In most cases these were strokes of pure genius
combined with perseverance, recognizing the fact that
each new generation of giants were "riding on the
shoulders of" those before them. And in every single
case success was built upon fallibility.

Cheers,

Santosh

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