Discussion:
Claudius Buchanan
(too old to reply)
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2009-08-03 00:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely quoted by Anant
Kakba Priolkar in his book on the Goa Inquisition:

http://books.google.com/books?id=nI0NAAAAYAAJ&dq=an+apology+for+promoting+christianity+in+india&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=_EGp9ul0pI&sig=gBtY0le8ZsMUNyoPR1l_nHJHdU4&hl=en&ei=bi12SrDoLdeIkQWSwYSODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 03:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely
This continued smearing of the historian Priolkar by the freelance journalist Noronha becomes more and more curious by each passing day. To people who know something about scholarly research, and the obligation and responsibility of researchers to discuss and cite all prior accounts that deal with the subject at hand in an impartial manner, Priolkar's citation of Buchanan's account should not be a surprise. Indeed, Priolkar's work would have been regarded as shoddy and incomplete if he had deliberately left Buchanan out.

As far as I can tell Priolkar has cited every single prior work related to the Goan inquisition, including translation of records from the Goan archives. What's more, other historians have stated that subsequent publication of a previously unknown account from the 16th or 17th century has largely confirmed Priolkar's observations.

Now why Noronha is hellbent on maligning Priolkar with all kinds of spurious hints, frivolous assertions and smoke and mirror tactics is anybody's guess.

Cheers,

Santosh
unknown
2009-08-03 18:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
This continued smearing of the historian Priolkar
by the freelance journalist Noronha becomes
more and more curious by each passing day....
You're missing the point about Buchanan's bias, and the
question of how Anant Kakba Priolkar could rely on part of
the bigoted views of a man like this. He seems to be having a
problem with every aspect of belief and practise which
doesn't belong to his tradition.

Please see Was Hinduism invented? by Brian Kemble Pennington
(page 90 ff):

Buchanan assured his readers that the outrageous
excesses of Hindu worship, as he described it,
accurately reflected the moral life of most Hindus
as well. These were not the benign and mild people
many travellers had suggested. Recounting his
initial reaction to the rites at Jagannatha, he
wrote:

This, I thought, is the worship of the Brahmins of
Hindostan, and their worship in its sublimest
degree ...

Two of Buchanan's other encounters on his tour are
worthy of notice, for they underscore his
passionate antipathy towards religious practice
he saw transfixed by flesh and matter. He
investigated the state of native Syrian Christian
communities along the southwestern coast of India
who traced their lineage to the legendary
first-century visit by Jesus' own apostle, Thomas.

When the Portuguese had attempted to force their
submission to Papal authority in the sixteenth
century, many "Malabar Syrians" had fled from the
coast into the hills, and the English had heard
only rumours of them since their arrival. Buchanan
set out to discover if they still existed and in
what state their religion had survived.

He found the people and the churches to exude an
"air of fallen greatness", which the Christians
told him reflected their suppression by the
Inquisition at Goa. They had preserved the ancient
Syriac liturgy and some copies of the Syriac
scriptures, one of which the bishop presented to
Buchana who then deposited it in the University
Library at Cambridge, where it still lies. The
simplicity and purity of Malabar Christian doctrine
impressed Buchanan. He entertained the hope that
this ancient gem, preserved amidst Hindu, Muslim
and Roman persecution, might united with the Church
of England, for its people possessed "the two chief
requisites for junction with any pure church;
namely, they profess the doctrines of the Bible,
and reject the supremacy of the Pope."

Still, he thought elements of Syrian Christian
practice in need of reform, including the
Eucharist, clerical celibacy, and worship practices
reminiscent of Roman Catholicism. On his return to
England, Buchanan proposed to the Church Missionary
Society that it take up the cause of the Syrian
churches. The CMS eagerly pursued the project,
hoping to reform the Syrian doctrine and worship so
the ancient church could shine as a beacon of
native Christian piety in a pagan land. Buchanan
expressed hope that an alliance between this church
and the Established Church of England would help
stem "the immense power of the Romish Church in
India," but the working union that was established
in 1816 unravelled within 20 years, primarily
because Buchanan "gravely underestimated the
differences which in fact existed between the
Church of England and the Thomas Christians."....

Buchanan likewise visited the sizable Roman
Catholic population in the south. Although he had
expected to find them in an unsatisfactory
condition, he "certainly did not expect to see
Christianity in the degraded state in whcih he
found it." He charged that the priests, "better
acquainted with the Veda of Brahma than with the
Gospel of Christ," superintended a paganized
Christianity....

Buchanan arrived in the city of New Goa (?) in
January of 1808 and, without revealing his
intentions, accepted an invitation from a priest,
Josephus a Doloribus, later revealed as the second
member of the Inquisitional Tribunal, to stay in
his apartments on the understanding that Buchanan
was surveying the libraries in Goa.

Buchanan spent a few days in urbane Latin
conversation with the priest, who treated him very
cordially and engaged him in a friendly theological
debate. In this polite atmosphere, Buchanan
casually broached the subject of the ongoing
Inquisition, showing Doloribus a copy of French
traveler Charles Dellon's *Relation de
l'inquisition de Goa* (1687), a firsthand account
of his own imprisonment there. The Inquisitor was
anxious to know whether such damning tales of
Catholicism in Goa were well-known in Europe, and
as the popularity of Inquisitional literature was
undiminished in the nineteenth century, Buchanan
confirmed his fears.

Buchanan then pushed the priest further to know
whether prisoners still suffered such tortures and
how many might be kept in the dungeons beneath
them. The priest balked at answering these
increasingly pointed questions, declaring the
conditions and punishment of the prisoners 'sacrum
et secretum.'

At this point, Buchanan's tactics changed.
Previously, he had attempted to ingratiate himself
with the priest, expressing common interests and
giving no indication that he knew of or objected to
teh INquisition. He later told David Brown, Company
chaplain and his superior at Fort William College,
"I disguised my purpose for the first three
days.... so that, on the fourth day, I attacked
him directly on the present state of the
Inquisition."...

The comments of the essay in Wagle and Coelho's (U. of
Toronto) book of collected essay, on Buchanan, are more
insightful...
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-03 18:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
This continued smearing of the historian Priolkar
by the freelance journalist Noronha becomes
more and more curious by each passing day....
You're missing the point about Buchanan's bias, and the
question of how Anant Kakba Priolkar could rely on part of
the bigoted views of a man like this. He seems to be having a
problem with every aspect of belief and practise which
doesn't belong to his tradition.

Please see Was Hinduism invented? by Brian Kemble Pennington
(page 90 ff):

Buchanan assured his readers that the outrageous
excesses of Hindu worship, as he described it,
accurately reflected the moral life of most Hindus
as well. These were not the benign and mild people
many travellers had suggested. Recounting his
initial reaction to the rites at Jagannatha, he
wrote:

This, I thought, is the worship of the Brahmins of
Hindostan, and their worship in its sublimest
degree ...

Two of Buchanan's other encounters on his tour are
worthy of notice, for they underscore his
passionate antipathy towards religious practice
he saw transfixed by flesh and matter. He
investigated the state of native Syrian Christian
communities along the southwestern coast of India
who traced their lineage to the legendary
first-century visit by Jesus' own apostle, Thomas.

When the Portuguese had attempted to force their
submission to Papal authority in the sixteenth
century, many "Malabar Syrians" had fled from the
coast into the hills, and the English had heard
only rumours of them since their arrival. Buchanan
set out to discover if they still existed and in
what state their religion had survived.

He found the people and the churches to exude an
"air of fallen greatness", which the Christians
told him reflected their suppression by the
Inquisition at Goa. They had preserved the ancient
Syriac liturgy and some copies of the Syriac
scriptures, one of which the bishop presented to
Buchana who then deposited it in the University
Library at Cambridge, where it still lies. The
simplicity and purity of Malabar Christian doctrine
impressed Buchanan. He entertained the hope that
this ancient gem, preserved amidst Hindu, Muslim
and Roman persecution, might united with the Church
of England, for its people possessed "the two chief
requisites for junction with any pure church;
namely, they profess the doctrines of the Bible,
and reject the supremacy of the Pope."

Still, he thought elements of Syrian Christian
practice in need of reform, including the
Eucharist, clerical celibacy, and worship practices
reminiscent of Roman Catholicism. On his return to
England, Buchanan proposed to the Church Missionary
Society that it take up the cause of the Syrian
churches. The CMS eagerly pursued the project,
hoping to reform the Syrian doctrine and worship so
the ancient church could shine as a beacon of
native Christian piety in a pagan land. Buchanan
expressed hope that an alliance between this church
and the Established Church of England would help
stem "the immense power of the Romish Church in
India," but the working union that was established
in 1816 unravelled within 20 years, primarily
because Buchanan "gravely underestimated the
differences which in fact existed between the
Church of England and the Thomas Christians."....

Buchanan likewise visited the sizable Roman
Catholic population in the south. Although he had
expected to find them in an unsatisfactory
condition, he "certainly did not expect to see
Christianity in the degraded state in whcih he
found it." He charged that the priests, "better
acquainted with the Veda of Brahma than with the
Gospel of Christ," superintended a paganized
Christianity....

Buchanan arrived in the city of New Goa (?) in
January of 1808 and, without revealing his
intentions, accepted an invitation from a priest,
Josephus a Doloribus, later revealed as the second
member of the Inquisitional Tribunal, to stay in
his apartments on the understanding that Buchanan
was surveying the libraries in Goa.

Buchanan spent a few days in urbane Latin
conversation with the priest, who treated him very
cordially and engaged him in a friendly theological
debate. In this polite atmosphere, Buchanan
casually broached the subject of the ongoing
Inquisition, showing Doloribus a copy of French
traveler Charles Dellon's *Relation de
l'inquisition de Goa* (1687), a firsthand account
of his own imprisonment there. The Inquisitor was
anxious to know whether such damning tales of
Catholicism in Goa were well-known in Europe, and
as the popularity of Inquisitional literature was
undiminished in the nineteenth century, Buchanan
confirmed his fears.

Buchanan then pushed the priest further to know
whether prisoners still suffered such tortures and
how many might be kept in the dungeons beneath
them. The priest balked at answering these
increasingly pointed questions, declaring the
conditions and punishment of the prisoners 'sacrum
et secretum.'

At this point, Buchanan's tactics changed.
Previously, he had attempted to ingratiate himself
with the priest, expressing common interests and
giving no indication that he knew of or objected to
teh INquisition. He later told David Brown, Company
chaplain and his superior at Fort William College,
"I disguised my purpose for the first three
days.... so that, on the fourth day, I attacked
him directly on the present state of the
Inquisition."...

The comments of the essay in Wagle and Coelho's (U. of
Toronto) book of collected essay, on Buchanan, are more
insightful...
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-03 18:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
This continued smearing of the historian Priolkar
by the freelance journalist Noronha becomes
more and more curious by each passing day....
You're missing the point about Buchanan's bias, and the
question of how Anant Kakba Priolkar could rely on part of
the bigoted views of a man like this. He seems to be having a
problem with every aspect of belief and practise which
doesn't belong to his tradition.

Please see Was Hinduism invented? by Brian Kemble Pennington
(page 90 ff):

Buchanan assured his readers that the outrageous
excesses of Hindu worship, as he described it,
accurately reflected the moral life of most Hindus
as well. These were not the benign and mild people
many travellers had suggested. Recounting his
initial reaction to the rites at Jagannatha, he
wrote:

This, I thought, is the worship of the Brahmins of
Hindostan, and their worship in its sublimest
degree ...

Two of Buchanan's other encounters on his tour are
worthy of notice, for they underscore his
passionate antipathy towards religious practice
he saw transfixed by flesh and matter. He
investigated the state of native Syrian Christian
communities along the southwestern coast of India
who traced their lineage to the legendary
first-century visit by Jesus' own apostle, Thomas.

When the Portuguese had attempted to force their
submission to Papal authority in the sixteenth
century, many "Malabar Syrians" had fled from the
coast into the hills, and the English had heard
only rumours of them since their arrival. Buchanan
set out to discover if they still existed and in
what state their religion had survived.

He found the people and the churches to exude an
"air of fallen greatness", which the Christians
told him reflected their suppression by the
Inquisition at Goa. They had preserved the ancient
Syriac liturgy and some copies of the Syriac
scriptures, one of which the bishop presented to
Buchana who then deposited it in the University
Library at Cambridge, where it still lies. The
simplicity and purity of Malabar Christian doctrine
impressed Buchanan. He entertained the hope that
this ancient gem, preserved amidst Hindu, Muslim
and Roman persecution, might united with the Church
of England, for its people possessed "the two chief
requisites for junction with any pure church;
namely, they profess the doctrines of the Bible,
and reject the supremacy of the Pope."

Still, he thought elements of Syrian Christian
practice in need of reform, including the
Eucharist, clerical celibacy, and worship practices
reminiscent of Roman Catholicism. On his return to
England, Buchanan proposed to the Church Missionary
Society that it take up the cause of the Syrian
churches. The CMS eagerly pursued the project,
hoping to reform the Syrian doctrine and worship so
the ancient church could shine as a beacon of
native Christian piety in a pagan land. Buchanan
expressed hope that an alliance between this church
and the Established Church of England would help
stem "the immense power of the Romish Church in
India," but the working union that was established
in 1816 unravelled within 20 years, primarily
because Buchanan "gravely underestimated the
differences which in fact existed between the
Church of England and the Thomas Christians."....

Buchanan likewise visited the sizable Roman
Catholic population in the south. Although he had
expected to find them in an unsatisfactory
condition, he "certainly did not expect to see
Christianity in the degraded state in whcih he
found it." He charged that the priests, "better
acquainted with the Veda of Brahma than with the
Gospel of Christ," superintended a paganized
Christianity....

Buchanan arrived in the city of New Goa (?) in
January of 1808 and, without revealing his
intentions, accepted an invitation from a priest,
Josephus a Doloribus, later revealed as the second
member of the Inquisitional Tribunal, to stay in
his apartments on the understanding that Buchanan
was surveying the libraries in Goa.

Buchanan spent a few days in urbane Latin
conversation with the priest, who treated him very
cordially and engaged him in a friendly theological
debate. In this polite atmosphere, Buchanan
casually broached the subject of the ongoing
Inquisition, showing Doloribus a copy of French
traveler Charles Dellon's *Relation de
l'inquisition de Goa* (1687), a firsthand account
of his own imprisonment there. The Inquisitor was
anxious to know whether such damning tales of
Catholicism in Goa were well-known in Europe, and
as the popularity of Inquisitional literature was
undiminished in the nineteenth century, Buchanan
confirmed his fears.

Buchanan then pushed the priest further to know
whether prisoners still suffered such tortures and
how many might be kept in the dungeons beneath
them. The priest balked at answering these
increasingly pointed questions, declaring the
conditions and punishment of the prisoners 'sacrum
et secretum.'

At this point, Buchanan's tactics changed.
Previously, he had attempted to ingratiate himself
with the priest, expressing common interests and
giving no indication that he knew of or objected to
teh INquisition. He later told David Brown, Company
chaplain and his superior at Fort William College,
"I disguised my purpose for the first three
days.... so that, on the fourth day, I attacked
him directly on the present state of the
Inquisition."...

The comments of the essay in Wagle and Coelho's (U. of
Toronto) book of collected essay, on Buchanan, are more
insightful...
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-03 18:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
This continued smearing of the historian Priolkar
by the freelance journalist Noronha becomes
more and more curious by each passing day....
You're missing the point about Buchanan's bias, and the
question of how Anant Kakba Priolkar could rely on part of
the bigoted views of a man like this. He seems to be having a
problem with every aspect of belief and practise which
doesn't belong to his tradition.

Please see Was Hinduism invented? by Brian Kemble Pennington
(page 90 ff):

Buchanan assured his readers that the outrageous
excesses of Hindu worship, as he described it,
accurately reflected the moral life of most Hindus
as well. These were not the benign and mild people
many travellers had suggested. Recounting his
initial reaction to the rites at Jagannatha, he
wrote:

This, I thought, is the worship of the Brahmins of
Hindostan, and their worship in its sublimest
degree ...

Two of Buchanan's other encounters on his tour are
worthy of notice, for they underscore his
passionate antipathy towards religious practice
he saw transfixed by flesh and matter. He
investigated the state of native Syrian Christian
communities along the southwestern coast of India
who traced their lineage to the legendary
first-century visit by Jesus' own apostle, Thomas.

When the Portuguese had attempted to force their
submission to Papal authority in the sixteenth
century, many "Malabar Syrians" had fled from the
coast into the hills, and the English had heard
only rumours of them since their arrival. Buchanan
set out to discover if they still existed and in
what state their religion had survived.

He found the people and the churches to exude an
"air of fallen greatness", which the Christians
told him reflected their suppression by the
Inquisition at Goa. They had preserved the ancient
Syriac liturgy and some copies of the Syriac
scriptures, one of which the bishop presented to
Buchana who then deposited it in the University
Library at Cambridge, where it still lies. The
simplicity and purity of Malabar Christian doctrine
impressed Buchanan. He entertained the hope that
this ancient gem, preserved amidst Hindu, Muslim
and Roman persecution, might united with the Church
of England, for its people possessed "the two chief
requisites for junction with any pure church;
namely, they profess the doctrines of the Bible,
and reject the supremacy of the Pope."

Still, he thought elements of Syrian Christian
practice in need of reform, including the
Eucharist, clerical celibacy, and worship practices
reminiscent of Roman Catholicism. On his return to
England, Buchanan proposed to the Church Missionary
Society that it take up the cause of the Syrian
churches. The CMS eagerly pursued the project,
hoping to reform the Syrian doctrine and worship so
the ancient church could shine as a beacon of
native Christian piety in a pagan land. Buchanan
expressed hope that an alliance between this church
and the Established Church of England would help
stem "the immense power of the Romish Church in
India," but the working union that was established
in 1816 unravelled within 20 years, primarily
because Buchanan "gravely underestimated the
differences which in fact existed between the
Church of England and the Thomas Christians."....

Buchanan likewise visited the sizable Roman
Catholic population in the south. Although he had
expected to find them in an unsatisfactory
condition, he "certainly did not expect to see
Christianity in the degraded state in whcih he
found it." He charged that the priests, "better
acquainted with the Veda of Brahma than with the
Gospel of Christ," superintended a paganized
Christianity....

Buchanan arrived in the city of New Goa (?) in
January of 1808 and, without revealing his
intentions, accepted an invitation from a priest,
Josephus a Doloribus, later revealed as the second
member of the Inquisitional Tribunal, to stay in
his apartments on the understanding that Buchanan
was surveying the libraries in Goa.

Buchanan spent a few days in urbane Latin
conversation with the priest, who treated him very
cordially and engaged him in a friendly theological
debate. In this polite atmosphere, Buchanan
casually broached the subject of the ongoing
Inquisition, showing Doloribus a copy of French
traveler Charles Dellon's *Relation de
l'inquisition de Goa* (1687), a firsthand account
of his own imprisonment there. The Inquisitor was
anxious to know whether such damning tales of
Catholicism in Goa were well-known in Europe, and
as the popularity of Inquisitional literature was
undiminished in the nineteenth century, Buchanan
confirmed his fears.

Buchanan then pushed the priest further to know
whether prisoners still suffered such tortures and
how many might be kept in the dungeons beneath
them. The priest balked at answering these
increasingly pointed questions, declaring the
conditions and punishment of the prisoners 'sacrum
et secretum.'

At this point, Buchanan's tactics changed.
Previously, he had attempted to ingratiate himself
with the priest, expressing common interests and
giving no indication that he knew of or objected to
teh INquisition. He later told David Brown, Company
chaplain and his superior at Fort William College,
"I disguised my purpose for the first three
days.... so that, on the fourth day, I attacked
him directly on the present state of the
Inquisition."...

The comments of the essay in Wagle and Coelho's (U. of
Toronto) book of collected essay, on Buchanan, are more
insightful...
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-03 16:11:24 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the link, FN.

I am in no position to state whether the author verified the details
before publishing them.

Even so, pages 9 and 10 were very difficult to read; What went on in
the name of Sati (and still apparently goes on in certain places) was
just as inhumane to life as the Inquisition. The description on pages
9 and 10 are truly awful.

I would have had more respect for Priolkar if he had analysed the way
ALL peoples of the subcontinent treated others i.e. Burnt them alive.
The Inquisitioners burnt those who practiced another religion, The
practioners of Sati only burnt women, albeit hundreds of thousands of
them. According to the Satiests - the women had no reason to live (and
have access to property) when their husband was dead.

So, they burnt the whole lot of them.

Beats me why a "historian" who had access to the printing press, did
not invest time in investigating Sati. Was it because Sati only burnt
women? ...and because ...during his time, women were still ....kind of
worthless?

Historians (even modern day ones) will write history (i.e. his story)
from their own angle. That is why, the history of the (say) Arab
Israeli conflict has such divergence - based on who is writing the
history. It is the bias - known to researchers as something that
causes a 'skew' in the data and eventual result.

Priolkar IMHO was not an unbiased story teller. He could have told the
whole story ....but intentionally or otherwise, did not.

Anybody who believes that Priolkar was unbiased - is invited to
provide the evidence that he was equitable in his publications.

jc

==

2009/8/2 Frederick "FN" Noronha fn at goa-india.org

Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely quoted by Anant
Kakba Priolkar in his book on the Goa Inquisition:

http://books.google.com/books?id=nI0NAAAAYAAJ&dq=an+apology+for+promoting+christianity+in+india&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=_EGp9ul0pI&sig=gBtY0le8ZsMUNyoPR1l_nHJHdU4&hl=en&ei=bi12SrDoLdeIkQWSwYSODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
unknown
2009-08-03 17:32:34 UTC
Permalink
The debate on sati is probably as fictionalised, stereotyped and
turned into Black Legend as the debate over the Inquisition in Goa.

It's hard to take the colonial discourse on sati at face value. It's
interesting though, specially now that it has been disected by a
number of scholars. (I recall reading in the past that figures about
the number of sati victims were grossly exaggerated. It's anyone guess
as to whose interest it would lie in, to inflate the problem out of
proportion and then show this as part of the White man's civilising
mission.)

For instance, see:

Sati, the blessing and the curse by John Stratton Hawley,
Columbia University. Southern Asian Institute:

Modern research confirms what traditional
brahmanical treatises imply -- that sati has always
been very much the exception rather than the rule
in Hindu life. Yet from the time of Marco Polo
until well into the nineteenth century (sati was
officially abolished in Bengal in 1829), Westerners
publishing diaries of their travels in India almost
always included a chapter on a sati they had
witnessed. These men watched their satis in horror
but with admiration, too, for the courage and
dignity of the women involved. If their books were
even sparsely illustrated, a drawing of the sati
was sure to appear.... What were Western readers
being asked to see in these verbal and visual
portraits? An icon in reverse -- something from
which the eye should be averted -- or in some
clandestine way an icon in fact? A condemnation of
sati the practice, or a secret adulation of sati
the heroine victim?

http://books.google.com/books?id=w_VbHItKQjYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=sati+exaggeration&source=gbs_similarbooks_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Contentious Traditions: The Debate on Sati in Colonial India
(Paperback) by Lata Mani
http://www.amazon.com/Contentious-Traditions-Debate-Colonial-India/dp/0520214072

"Examines the documents of the colonial bureaucracy, the writings of
the nineteenth-century indigenous male elite, the journals and
publications of missionaries, and numerous European eyewitness
accounts. She asks why the British first loudly denounced it, then
covertly sanctioned it, and then officially banned it. . . .
Contentious Traditions shows how divided the colonial bureaucrats were
on the political costs of intervening in sati, how the grounds shifted
in the arguments that the nineteenth-century Bengali reformer
Rammonhun Roy made against sati in response to colonial
pronouncements. how the Baptist missionaries took very different
stances in addressing British and Indian audiences, and burning
ricocheted between horror and fascination. . . . In citing the
gruesome evidence that many satis were neither "voluntary" nor
painless, and by assuming that the material causes for many satis make
them by definition non-religious, Lata Mani discounts the religious
ideology that might have motivated either the woman herself or the
people forcing her to do it, or both."--Times Literary Supplement

Sati by Arvind Sharma
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=UJmWgz2mv5oC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=sati+missionary&source=bl&ots=LkP-ZJ0n5u&sig=iGtOIgECygJU6jiG2CIqPfE6yiE&hl=en&ei=kRh3SoXMBcODkAWs1fH_Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=sati
missionary&f=false

QUOTE:

The Christian missionary involvement for the abolition of the
sati rite was only an offshoot of their grand design in
India, which was conversion of the country to Christianity.
Rev. Claudius Buchanan of the Church of England, who landed
in Bengal in 1790, had no illusions about such success.

...There were those practices or rituals which inflicted
immediate death or tended to produce death. One of these
practices was the rite of sati. Buchanan advocated abolition
of the rite by law and argued that when the practice of
sacrificing children -- another "bloody superstition" of the
Hindus -- had been abolished by Wellesley by the Regulation
VI of 1802, "not a murmur followed", and that there would
neither be any if the Government abolished the sati rite by a
regulation....
ENDQUOTE

2009/8/3 J. Colaco < jc> <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Thanks for the link, FN.
I am in no position to state whether the author verified the details
before publishing them.
Even so, pages 9 and 10 were very difficult to read; What went on in
the name of Sati (and still apparently goes on in certain places) was
just as inhumane to life as the Inquisition. The description on pages
9 and 10 are truly awful....
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages ?http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa ? ? http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-03 17:32:34 UTC
Permalink
The debate on sati is probably as fictionalised, stereotyped and
turned into Black Legend as the debate over the Inquisition in Goa.

It's hard to take the colonial discourse on sati at face value. It's
interesting though, specially now that it has been disected by a
number of scholars. (I recall reading in the past that figures about
the number of sati victims were grossly exaggerated. It's anyone guess
as to whose interest it would lie in, to inflate the problem out of
proportion and then show this as part of the White man's civilising
mission.)

For instance, see:

Sati, the blessing and the curse by John Stratton Hawley,
Columbia University. Southern Asian Institute:

Modern research confirms what traditional
brahmanical treatises imply -- that sati has always
been very much the exception rather than the rule
in Hindu life. Yet from the time of Marco Polo
until well into the nineteenth century (sati was
officially abolished in Bengal in 1829), Westerners
publishing diaries of their travels in India almost
always included a chapter on a sati they had
witnessed. These men watched their satis in horror
but with admiration, too, for the courage and
dignity of the women involved. If their books were
even sparsely illustrated, a drawing of the sati
was sure to appear.... What were Western readers
being asked to see in these verbal and visual
portraits? An icon in reverse -- something from
which the eye should be averted -- or in some
clandestine way an icon in fact? A condemnation of
sati the practice, or a secret adulation of sati
the heroine victim?

http://books.google.com/books?id=w_VbHItKQjYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=sati+exaggeration&source=gbs_similarbooks_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Contentious Traditions: The Debate on Sati in Colonial India
(Paperback) by Lata Mani
http://www.amazon.com/Contentious-Traditions-Debate-Colonial-India/dp/0520214072

"Examines the documents of the colonial bureaucracy, the writings of
the nineteenth-century indigenous male elite, the journals and
publications of missionaries, and numerous European eyewitness
accounts. She asks why the British first loudly denounced it, then
covertly sanctioned it, and then officially banned it. . . .
Contentious Traditions shows how divided the colonial bureaucrats were
on the political costs of intervening in sati, how the grounds shifted
in the arguments that the nineteenth-century Bengali reformer
Rammonhun Roy made against sati in response to colonial
pronouncements. how the Baptist missionaries took very different
stances in addressing British and Indian audiences, and burning
ricocheted between horror and fascination. . . . In citing the
gruesome evidence that many satis were neither "voluntary" nor
painless, and by assuming that the material causes for many satis make
them by definition non-religious, Lata Mani discounts the religious
ideology that might have motivated either the woman herself or the
people forcing her to do it, or both."--Times Literary Supplement

Sati by Arvind Sharma
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=UJmWgz2mv5oC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=sati+missionary&source=bl&ots=LkP-ZJ0n5u&sig=iGtOIgECygJU6jiG2CIqPfE6yiE&hl=en&ei=kRh3SoXMBcODkAWs1fH_Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=sati
missionary&f=false

QUOTE:

The Christian missionary involvement for the abolition of the
sati rite was only an offshoot of their grand design in
India, which was conversion of the country to Christianity.
Rev. Claudius Buchanan of the Church of England, who landed
in Bengal in 1790, had no illusions about such success.

...There were those practices or rituals which inflicted
immediate death or tended to produce death. One of these
practices was the rite of sati. Buchanan advocated abolition
of the rite by law and argued that when the practice of
sacrificing children -- another "bloody superstition" of the
Hindus -- had been abolished by Wellesley by the Regulation
VI of 1802, "not a murmur followed", and that there would
neither be any if the Government abolished the sati rite by a
regulation....
ENDQUOTE

2009/8/3 J. Colaco < jc> <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Thanks for the link, FN.
I am in no position to state whether the author verified the details
before publishing them.
Even so, pages 9 and 10 were very difficult to read; What went on in
the name of Sati (and still apparently goes on in certain places) was
just as inhumane to life as the Inquisition. The description on pages
9 and 10 are truly awful....
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages ?http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa ? ? http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-03 17:32:34 UTC
Permalink
The debate on sati is probably as fictionalised, stereotyped and
turned into Black Legend as the debate over the Inquisition in Goa.

It's hard to take the colonial discourse on sati at face value. It's
interesting though, specially now that it has been disected by a
number of scholars. (I recall reading in the past that figures about
the number of sati victims were grossly exaggerated. It's anyone guess
as to whose interest it would lie in, to inflate the problem out of
proportion and then show this as part of the White man's civilising
mission.)

For instance, see:

Sati, the blessing and the curse by John Stratton Hawley,
Columbia University. Southern Asian Institute:

Modern research confirms what traditional
brahmanical treatises imply -- that sati has always
been very much the exception rather than the rule
in Hindu life. Yet from the time of Marco Polo
until well into the nineteenth century (sati was
officially abolished in Bengal in 1829), Westerners
publishing diaries of their travels in India almost
always included a chapter on a sati they had
witnessed. These men watched their satis in horror
but with admiration, too, for the courage and
dignity of the women involved. If their books were
even sparsely illustrated, a drawing of the sati
was sure to appear.... What were Western readers
being asked to see in these verbal and visual
portraits? An icon in reverse -- something from
which the eye should be averted -- or in some
clandestine way an icon in fact? A condemnation of
sati the practice, or a secret adulation of sati
the heroine victim?

http://books.google.com/books?id=w_VbHItKQjYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=sati+exaggeration&source=gbs_similarbooks_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Contentious Traditions: The Debate on Sati in Colonial India
(Paperback) by Lata Mani
http://www.amazon.com/Contentious-Traditions-Debate-Colonial-India/dp/0520214072

"Examines the documents of the colonial bureaucracy, the writings of
the nineteenth-century indigenous male elite, the journals and
publications of missionaries, and numerous European eyewitness
accounts. She asks why the British first loudly denounced it, then
covertly sanctioned it, and then officially banned it. . . .
Contentious Traditions shows how divided the colonial bureaucrats were
on the political costs of intervening in sati, how the grounds shifted
in the arguments that the nineteenth-century Bengali reformer
Rammonhun Roy made against sati in response to colonial
pronouncements. how the Baptist missionaries took very different
stances in addressing British and Indian audiences, and burning
ricocheted between horror and fascination. . . . In citing the
gruesome evidence that many satis were neither "voluntary" nor
painless, and by assuming that the material causes for many satis make
them by definition non-religious, Lata Mani discounts the religious
ideology that might have motivated either the woman herself or the
people forcing her to do it, or both."--Times Literary Supplement

Sati by Arvind Sharma
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=UJmWgz2mv5oC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=sati+missionary&source=bl&ots=LkP-ZJ0n5u&sig=iGtOIgECygJU6jiG2CIqPfE6yiE&hl=en&ei=kRh3SoXMBcODkAWs1fH_Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=sati
missionary&f=false

QUOTE:

The Christian missionary involvement for the abolition of the
sati rite was only an offshoot of their grand design in
India, which was conversion of the country to Christianity.
Rev. Claudius Buchanan of the Church of England, who landed
in Bengal in 1790, had no illusions about such success.

...There were those practices or rituals which inflicted
immediate death or tended to produce death. One of these
practices was the rite of sati. Buchanan advocated abolition
of the rite by law and argued that when the practice of
sacrificing children -- another "bloody superstition" of the
Hindus -- had been abolished by Wellesley by the Regulation
VI of 1802, "not a murmur followed", and that there would
neither be any if the Government abolished the sati rite by a
regulation....
ENDQUOTE

2009/8/3 J. Colaco < jc> <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Thanks for the link, FN.
I am in no position to state whether the author verified the details
before publishing them.
Even so, pages 9 and 10 were very difficult to read; What went on in
the name of Sati (and still apparently goes on in certain places) was
just as inhumane to life as the Inquisition. The description on pages
9 and 10 are truly awful....
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages ?http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa ? ? http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-03 17:32:34 UTC
Permalink
The debate on sati is probably as fictionalised, stereotyped and
turned into Black Legend as the debate over the Inquisition in Goa.

It's hard to take the colonial discourse on sati at face value. It's
interesting though, specially now that it has been disected by a
number of scholars. (I recall reading in the past that figures about
the number of sati victims were grossly exaggerated. It's anyone guess
as to whose interest it would lie in, to inflate the problem out of
proportion and then show this as part of the White man's civilising
mission.)

For instance, see:

Sati, the blessing and the curse by John Stratton Hawley,
Columbia University. Southern Asian Institute:

Modern research confirms what traditional
brahmanical treatises imply -- that sati has always
been very much the exception rather than the rule
in Hindu life. Yet from the time of Marco Polo
until well into the nineteenth century (sati was
officially abolished in Bengal in 1829), Westerners
publishing diaries of their travels in India almost
always included a chapter on a sati they had
witnessed. These men watched their satis in horror
but with admiration, too, for the courage and
dignity of the women involved. If their books were
even sparsely illustrated, a drawing of the sati
was sure to appear.... What were Western readers
being asked to see in these verbal and visual
portraits? An icon in reverse -- something from
which the eye should be averted -- or in some
clandestine way an icon in fact? A condemnation of
sati the practice, or a secret adulation of sati
the heroine victim?

http://books.google.com/books?id=w_VbHItKQjYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=sati+exaggeration&source=gbs_similarbooks_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Contentious Traditions: The Debate on Sati in Colonial India
(Paperback) by Lata Mani
http://www.amazon.com/Contentious-Traditions-Debate-Colonial-India/dp/0520214072

"Examines the documents of the colonial bureaucracy, the writings of
the nineteenth-century indigenous male elite, the journals and
publications of missionaries, and numerous European eyewitness
accounts. She asks why the British first loudly denounced it, then
covertly sanctioned it, and then officially banned it. . . .
Contentious Traditions shows how divided the colonial bureaucrats were
on the political costs of intervening in sati, how the grounds shifted
in the arguments that the nineteenth-century Bengali reformer
Rammonhun Roy made against sati in response to colonial
pronouncements. how the Baptist missionaries took very different
stances in addressing British and Indian audiences, and burning
ricocheted between horror and fascination. . . . In citing the
gruesome evidence that many satis were neither "voluntary" nor
painless, and by assuming that the material causes for many satis make
them by definition non-religious, Lata Mani discounts the religious
ideology that might have motivated either the woman herself or the
people forcing her to do it, or both."--Times Literary Supplement

Sati by Arvind Sharma
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=UJmWgz2mv5oC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=sati+missionary&source=bl&ots=LkP-ZJ0n5u&sig=iGtOIgECygJU6jiG2CIqPfE6yiE&hl=en&ei=kRh3SoXMBcODkAWs1fH_Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=sati
missionary&f=false

QUOTE:

The Christian missionary involvement for the abolition of the
sati rite was only an offshoot of their grand design in
India, which was conversion of the country to Christianity.
Rev. Claudius Buchanan of the Church of England, who landed
in Bengal in 1790, had no illusions about such success.

...There were those practices or rituals which inflicted
immediate death or tended to produce death. One of these
practices was the rite of sati. Buchanan advocated abolition
of the rite by law and argued that when the practice of
sacrificing children -- another "bloody superstition" of the
Hindus -- had been abolished by Wellesley by the Regulation
VI of 1802, "not a murmur followed", and that there would
neither be any if the Government abolished the sati rite by a
regulation....
ENDQUOTE

2009/8/3 J. Colaco < jc> <colaco1 at gmail.com>
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Thanks for the link, FN.
I am in no position to state whether the author verified the details
before publishing them.
Even so, pages 9 and 10 were very difficult to read; What went on in
the name of Sati (and still apparently goes on in certain places) was
just as inhumane to life as the Inquisition. The description on pages
9 and 10 are truly awful....
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages ?http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa ? ? http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 16:27:02 UTC
Permalink
After reading Claudius Buchanan's book entitled "Christian Researches In Asia", and the first of the letters compiled under "An Apology for Promoting christianity in India", which Frederick Noronha forwarded to Goanet in order to smear Anant Priolkar by osmosis, the following suspicions of mine have been thoroughly confirmed:

1. That Noronha has not read what he has forwarded, copied and pasted, written about and passed judgment on on Goanet regarding Buchanan and Priolkar.

2. He has relied on superficial perceptions, generalities and biases derived from such things as titles of books and political rhetoric, rather than what is inside the pages of those books or anything of substance.

3. Using the aforementioned tactics, Noronha has completely misled Goanetters and readers of his articles on this issue in Herald and Christian publications such as South Asia Religious News (Please see: http://www.sarnews.in/details.php?n=1112).

I am particularly appalled by the latter because of the communal/religious slant given to this false propaganda against Priolkar, which has now been widely circulated on the internet. Please see: http://www.speroforum.com/a/19896/The-Inquisition-in-India-and-its-critics, for another similar deception.

After reading Buchanan's book and letter, the understanding that I have achieved is exactly the opposite of the frivolous impression created by Noronha on Goanet and elsewhere. I want to substantiate this assertion of mine in great detail at a later time. But let me just state now that Buchanan's account of what he witnessed in the Holy Office of the inquisition in Goa is much more restrained, objective and clinical than I had ever imagined. I could not find anything in it that stretched my credibility, and any reason to believe that Buchanan was exercising his prejudice against the Portuguese or the Catholics. By contrast, his descriptions of Hinduism and Hindu rituals are horrifying. A devout Hindu would be outraged by them. Given the latter fact, my admiration and respect for Priolkar's objectivity has grown by leaps and bounds.

Let me close by quoting from the very material (Buchanan's letters) that Noronha has forwarded in his latest fabricated indictment of Priolkar. It will give you a good idea of where Buchanan's sympathies lay, and perhaps, those of Noronha, as well. It will also reveal to you why I think that Noronha does not read what he forwards to Goanet.

QUOTE
There is a disposition prevalent at present to disparage the testimony of the Christian Missionaries. It is supposed by their adversaries that, if they can in any way impeach the credit of a promoter of Christianity, they gain somewhat in the present question. But the cause of Christianity will prevail. It will be found, that the profession of Christianity and a desire to promote it, are generally accompanied by a love of truth. The respectability of the Christian Missionary will increase in this nation, while the character and testimony of the supporters of Brahma will sink and be diminished. It is true, an ardent zeal for the diffusion of the blessings of religion will, in some cases, particularly in the view of impious scenes, excite indignation, and may produce too high a colouring in statement (which is exeeedingly reprehensible,) and narrators may make mistakes in description. But still the substance of the facts (which they think it necessary to
communicate to their country in defence of the honour of Christianity) will remain. In like manner, a writer, animated by a zeal of a contrary character, may be able, by the power of high embellishment, by noticing indifferent circumstances and entirely suppressing others, to represent the idol Juggernaut as being merely one of "the gay and elegant deities of Greece and Rome;" but the substanee of the facts, as stated by others, will remain the same: it will still continue true, that Juggernaut is a fountain of vice and misery to millions of mankind; that the sanguinary and obscene character of the worship is in the highest degree revolting; and that it will be a must happy event when our Christian nation shall dissolve its connection with that polluted place.
UNQUOTE
.....Claudius Buchanan

More later.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely
quoted by Anant
http://books.google.com/books?id=nI0NAAAAYAAJ&dq=an+apology+for+promoting+christianity+in+india&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=_EGp9ul0pI&sig=gBtY0le8ZsMUNyoPR1l_nHJHdU4&hl=en&ei=bi12SrDoLdeIkQWSwYSODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
--
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 20:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Priolkar IMHO was not an unbiased story teller. He could
have told the whole story ....but intentionally or otherwise, did not.
Anybody who believes that Priolkar was unbiased - is
invited to provide the evidence that he was equitable in his
publications.
This is an unfair request. The burden of proving that Priolkar was biased is on his accusers. The defendant (or anyone else on his behalf) never has to prove his innocence.

I guess the complaint about the whole story here means that Priolkar should have written about Sati in a book about the Inquisition for political balance, despite the fact that the two issues have no historical connection. This would be a valid criticism if his book was an opinion editorial on unjust religious practices. But the book was a scholarly review on a specific historical subject - the Goan Inquisition. Of course, he could have written a separate book on the inhuman Hindu practice of Sati, in which he would then have no reason to say anything about the inquisition. One could fault him for not doing the latter, but to claim that his account of the inquisition is tainted and biased just because he did not mention Sati in it is ludicrous.

Moreover, Buchanan has written at length about Sati and other horrible Hindu rituals. I see no more reason to disbelieve these eye-witness accounts than those of his experiences with the inquisitor in Goa. Having quoted from Buchanan's "Christian Researches in India", Priolkar was most definitely aware of these descriptions of Hindu atrocities. Indeed, as I have said earlier, this singular fact does more than anything else to explode the bogus smears against him. It is clear to me that he was able to set aside whatever religious feelings, sympathies and prejudices he might have had to cite an important historical document, which he was duty bound to do as a historian.

As far as I am concerned, the most important questions from a scholarly perspective are the following:

1. Does Priolkar accurately state the facts that he has learned about the inquisition from the sources that he cites?

2. Does he cite all the sources that were available to him?

3. Does he selectively quote from certain sources, and leave out other materials and sources?

3. Does he embellish or exaggerate anything for political, communal or nationalistic purposes?

4. Have the facts that he cites been shown by other unbiased researchers to be inaccurate based on independent research?

5. Are his sources shown to be unreliable by other unbiased researchers based on sound independent research?

In the next couple of weeks I will have answers to these questions because I will have completed a thorough reading and review of the newly published edition of Priolkar's book.

Cheers,

Santosh
unknown
2009-08-03 21:56:01 UTC
Permalink
What is the "whole story"? "Equitable" between whom?

The problem with the Black Legend is that it's based on exaggeration,
demonising one side, and resting its arguments on narrators who are
hardly likely to be unbiased.

When JC gets defensive, he takes to the
your-religion-is-worse-off-than-mine approach (or so it seems to me).
But this really a my-colonialism-is-better-than-yours issue here. In
the scramble to justify colonialism and its effects, the Brits later
(and apparently the Dutch too, even earlier) were into building Black
Legends long before the Priolkars came along!

Of course, as Santosh says, I could be wrong.... FN
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Priolkar IMHO was not an unbiased story teller. He could
have told the whole story ....but intentionally or otherwise, did not.
Anybody who believes that Priolkar was unbiased - is
invited to provide the evidence that he was equitable in his
publications.
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-03 23:59:12 UTC
Permalink
My dear Santoshbab,

I am sure you will agree with me on two points:

[1] There are many things our forebears did which would make us hang
our heads in shame today.

[2] Sati, the Inquisition, Slavery and unprovoked wars were/and
remain abominations.

The point I wish to make, and you may disagree with me reasonably (and
FN may do so, unreasonably) is the following:

Anyone who claims to have the facts on his side MUST prove that he has
the facts, all the facts, and nothing but the facts.

Or he is noting more than a partisan writer/historian ....and .... one
is quite free to take him with a pinch of Salt.
From the vantage point of a physician: What is the point of
selectively writing about ALL the good qualities of (say)
Chloramphenicol, if you do not write about its adverse effects and
compare it the other available antibiotics?
From the vantage point of a historian: What is the point of
selectively about ALL the horrible incidents of the Inquisition
without writing about the comparative attrocities of the time.

All this is crucial in the understanding of one basic fact: Our
forebears were uncivilised animals. All of them. Everyone's forebears.
Each one's was worse than the others. Hopefully, we have evolved to be
better than them.

Do you not see the Inquistion being used as a 'beating stick' by the
right wing Hindus ...contra Catholics? Should the other side of the
stick be exposed too...or hidden in the palm?

That is where I believe that Priolkar failed. It is not what he wrote
.... it is what he failed to write.

jc



2009/8/3 Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>

The burden of proving that Priolkar was biased is on his accusers. The
defendant (or anyone else on his behalf) never has to prove his
innocence.

I guess the complaint about the whole story here means that Priolkar
should have written about Sati in a book about the Inquisition for
political balance, despite the fact that the two issues have no
historical connection. This would be a valid criticism if his book was
an opinion editorial on unjust religious practices. But the book was a
scholarly review on a specific historical subject - the Goan
Inquisition. Of course, he could have written a separate book on the
inhuman Hindu practice of Sati, in which he would then have no reason
to say anything about the inquisition. One could fault him for not
doing the latter, but to claim that his account of the inquisition is
tainted and biased just because he did not mention Sati in it is
ludicrous.

Moreover, Buchanan has written at length about Sati and other horrible
Hindu rituals. I see no more reason to disbelieve these eye-witness
accounts than those of his experiences with the inquisitor in Goa.
Having quoted from Buchanan's "Christian Researches in India",
Priolkar was most definitely aware of these descriptions of Hindu
atrocities. Indeed, as I have said earlier, this singular fact does
more than anything else to explode the bogus smears against him. It is
clear to me that he was able to set aside whatever religious feelings,
sympathies and prejudices he might have had to cite an important
historical document, which he was duty bound to do as a historian.

As far as I am concerned, the most important questions from a
scholarly perspective are the following:

1. Does Priolkar accurately state the facts that he has learned about
the inquisition from the sources that he cites?

2. Does he cite all the sources that were available to him?

3. Does he selectively quote from certain sources, and leave out other
materials and sources?

3. Does he embellish or exaggerate anything for political, communal or
nationalistic purposes?

4. Have the facts that he cites been shown by other unbiased
researchers to be inaccurate based on independent research?

5. Are his sources shown to be unreliable by other unbiased
researchers based on sound independent research?

In the next couple of weeks I will have answers to these questions
because I will have completed a thorough reading and review of the
newly published edition of Priolkar's book.
unknown
2009-08-04 00:39:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
[1] There are many things our forebears did which would make us hang
our heads in shame today.
True. But we are not discussing all these issues here.

The topic of discussion is the Inquisition, and how fairly it is being
discussed, or whether it is done so with exaggerations, and biased
motives.
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
[2] Sati, the Inquisition, Slavery ?and unprovoked wars were/and
remain abominations.
These issues would only help to cloud the discussion, make everyone
defensive, and take us to emotions rather than facts.
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Anyone who claims to have the facts on his side MUST prove that he has
the facts, all the facts, and nothing but the facts.
Don't forget the *interpretation of the facts*. There is also the
question of selection of the facts.

This is what Prof David Higgs has to say about Priolkar's work (when
he wrote it, he was at the University of Toronto's Department of
HIstory at Ontario):

Priolkar drew heavily on secondary sources in
his sketch of the Goan Inquisition, especially on a
late seventeenth-century Frenchman, Gabriel Dellon,
arrested in Goa, whose case was made famous
by the denunciatory account of his experiences published
after his return to France. The original trial documents
have been lost , presumably among those ordered
destroyed by the governor, and so cannot be compared
against Dellon's exuberant account of his misfortunes.

Priolkar also used the over-imaginative account of a
British clergyman, C. Buchanan, who wanted to think
that what he was not allowed to see in Old Goa in 1808
was what Dellon inveighed at more than a century
earlier.

Priolkar consulted no original documentation from the
Portuguese Holy Office which survives in other
deposits, and this renders his a deficient, if still useful,
account of the Inquisition of the late eighteenth-century
Goa. (In Goa: Continuity and Change, ed by Wagle and
Coehlo, Univ of Toronto, Centre for South Asian Studies, 1995)
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-04 02:59:27 UTC
Permalink
re this from me to Santoshbab

I am sure you will agree with me on two points:? [1] There are many
things our forebears did which would make us hang
our heads in shame today. [2] Sati, the Inquisition, Slavery? and
unprovoked wars were/and remain abominations

Frederick Noronha wrote: True. But we are not discussing all these
issues here. The topic of discussion is the Inquisition, and how
fairly it is being discussed, or whether it is done so with
exaggerations, and biased motives.

--

jc's response: I am quite happy that FN decides what the parameters of
any debate should be He is invited to follow those parameters. I find
it neither reasonable nor right to discuss topics in boxes - without
looking at what lies beyond those boxes.

Bilateral hemianopsia of thought is not something I personally find useful.

It is my personal belief that a fair assessment of any topic is best
achieved by looking at ALL the facts of the case, and doing a
comparative analysis to ascertain reasonableness - if one can find it.

There are, I submit, many facets to any story or historical event. It
is worthless restricting our analysis to the 'terms of reference'.
That is for politicians and their 'one man inquiries'.

If we followed the 'boxed principle' we'd be here believing that the
Marios went into guerra for the fugetio.....and not for the coconut
oil et al.

jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-04 02:59:27 UTC
Permalink
re this from me to Santoshbab

I am sure you will agree with me on two points:? [1] There are many
things our forebears did which would make us hang
our heads in shame today. [2] Sati, the Inquisition, Slavery? and
unprovoked wars were/and remain abominations

Frederick Noronha wrote: True. But we are not discussing all these
issues here. The topic of discussion is the Inquisition, and how
fairly it is being discussed, or whether it is done so with
exaggerations, and biased motives.

--

jc's response: I am quite happy that FN decides what the parameters of
any debate should be He is invited to follow those parameters. I find
it neither reasonable nor right to discuss topics in boxes - without
looking at what lies beyond those boxes.

Bilateral hemianopsia of thought is not something I personally find useful.

It is my personal belief that a fair assessment of any topic is best
achieved by looking at ALL the facts of the case, and doing a
comparative analysis to ascertain reasonableness - if one can find it.

There are, I submit, many facets to any story or historical event. It
is worthless restricting our analysis to the 'terms of reference'.
That is for politicians and their 'one man inquiries'.

If we followed the 'boxed principle' we'd be here believing that the
Marios went into guerra for the fugetio.....and not for the coconut
oil et al.

jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-04 02:59:27 UTC
Permalink
re this from me to Santoshbab

I am sure you will agree with me on two points:? [1] There are many
things our forebears did which would make us hang
our heads in shame today. [2] Sati, the Inquisition, Slavery? and
unprovoked wars were/and remain abominations

Frederick Noronha wrote: True. But we are not discussing all these
issues here. The topic of discussion is the Inquisition, and how
fairly it is being discussed, or whether it is done so with
exaggerations, and biased motives.

--

jc's response: I am quite happy that FN decides what the parameters of
any debate should be He is invited to follow those parameters. I find
it neither reasonable nor right to discuss topics in boxes - without
looking at what lies beyond those boxes.

Bilateral hemianopsia of thought is not something I personally find useful.

It is my personal belief that a fair assessment of any topic is best
achieved by looking at ALL the facts of the case, and doing a
comparative analysis to ascertain reasonableness - if one can find it.

There are, I submit, many facets to any story or historical event. It
is worthless restricting our analysis to the 'terms of reference'.
That is for politicians and their 'one man inquiries'.

If we followed the 'boxed principle' we'd be here believing that the
Marios went into guerra for the fugetio.....and not for the coconut
oil et al.

jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-04 02:59:27 UTC
Permalink
re this from me to Santoshbab

I am sure you will agree with me on two points:? [1] There are many
things our forebears did which would make us hang
our heads in shame today. [2] Sati, the Inquisition, Slavery? and
unprovoked wars were/and remain abominations

Frederick Noronha wrote: True. But we are not discussing all these
issues here. The topic of discussion is the Inquisition, and how
fairly it is being discussed, or whether it is done so with
exaggerations, and biased motives.

--

jc's response: I am quite happy that FN decides what the parameters of
any debate should be He is invited to follow those parameters. I find
it neither reasonable nor right to discuss topics in boxes - without
looking at what lies beyond those boxes.

Bilateral hemianopsia of thought is not something I personally find useful.

It is my personal belief that a fair assessment of any topic is best
achieved by looking at ALL the facts of the case, and doing a
comparative analysis to ascertain reasonableness - if one can find it.

There are, I submit, many facets to any story or historical event. It
is worthless restricting our analysis to the 'terms of reference'.
That is for politicians and their 'one man inquiries'.

If we followed the 'boxed principle' we'd be here believing that the
Marios went into guerra for the fugetio.....and not for the coconut
oil et al.

jc
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-04 00:39:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
[1] There are many things our forebears did which would make us hang
our heads in shame today.
True. But we are not discussing all these issues here.

The topic of discussion is the Inquisition, and how fairly it is being
discussed, or whether it is done so with exaggerations, and biased
motives.
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
[2] Sati, the Inquisition, Slavery ?and unprovoked wars were/and
remain abominations.
These issues would only help to cloud the discussion, make everyone
defensive, and take us to emotions rather than facts.
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Anyone who claims to have the facts on his side MUST prove that he has
the facts, all the facts, and nothing but the facts.
Don't forget the *interpretation of the facts*. There is also the
question of selection of the facts.

This is what Prof David Higgs has to say about Priolkar's work (when
he wrote it, he was at the University of Toronto's Department of
HIstory at Ontario):

Priolkar drew heavily on secondary sources in
his sketch of the Goan Inquisition, especially on a
late seventeenth-century Frenchman, Gabriel Dellon,
arrested in Goa, whose case was made famous
by the denunciatory account of his experiences published
after his return to France. The original trial documents
have been lost , presumably among those ordered
destroyed by the governor, and so cannot be compared
against Dellon's exuberant account of his misfortunes.

Priolkar also used the over-imaginative account of a
British clergyman, C. Buchanan, who wanted to think
that what he was not allowed to see in Old Goa in 1808
was what Dellon inveighed at more than a century
earlier.

Priolkar consulted no original documentation from the
Portuguese Holy Office which survives in other
deposits, and this renders his a deficient, if still useful,
account of the Inquisition of the late eighteenth-century
Goa. (In Goa: Continuity and Change, ed by Wagle and
Coehlo, Univ of Toronto, Centre for South Asian Studies, 1995)
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-04 00:39:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
[1] There are many things our forebears did which would make us hang
our heads in shame today.
True. But we are not discussing all these issues here.

The topic of discussion is the Inquisition, and how fairly it is being
discussed, or whether it is done so with exaggerations, and biased
motives.
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
[2] Sati, the Inquisition, Slavery ?and unprovoked wars were/and
remain abominations.
These issues would only help to cloud the discussion, make everyone
defensive, and take us to emotions rather than facts.
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Anyone who claims to have the facts on his side MUST prove that he has
the facts, all the facts, and nothing but the facts.
Don't forget the *interpretation of the facts*. There is also the
question of selection of the facts.

This is what Prof David Higgs has to say about Priolkar's work (when
he wrote it, he was at the University of Toronto's Department of
HIstory at Ontario):

Priolkar drew heavily on secondary sources in
his sketch of the Goan Inquisition, especially on a
late seventeenth-century Frenchman, Gabriel Dellon,
arrested in Goa, whose case was made famous
by the denunciatory account of his experiences published
after his return to France. The original trial documents
have been lost , presumably among those ordered
destroyed by the governor, and so cannot be compared
against Dellon's exuberant account of his misfortunes.

Priolkar also used the over-imaginative account of a
British clergyman, C. Buchanan, who wanted to think
that what he was not allowed to see in Old Goa in 1808
was what Dellon inveighed at more than a century
earlier.

Priolkar consulted no original documentation from the
Portuguese Holy Office which survives in other
deposits, and this renders his a deficient, if still useful,
account of the Inquisition of the late eighteenth-century
Goa. (In Goa: Continuity and Change, ed by Wagle and
Coehlo, Univ of Toronto, Centre for South Asian Studies, 1995)
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-04 00:39:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
[1] There are many things our forebears did which would make us hang
our heads in shame today.
True. But we are not discussing all these issues here.

The topic of discussion is the Inquisition, and how fairly it is being
discussed, or whether it is done so with exaggerations, and biased
motives.
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
[2] Sati, the Inquisition, Slavery ?and unprovoked wars were/and
remain abominations.
These issues would only help to cloud the discussion, make everyone
defensive, and take us to emotions rather than facts.
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Anyone who claims to have the facts on his side MUST prove that he has
the facts, all the facts, and nothing but the facts.
Don't forget the *interpretation of the facts*. There is also the
question of selection of the facts.

This is what Prof David Higgs has to say about Priolkar's work (when
he wrote it, he was at the University of Toronto's Department of
HIstory at Ontario):

Priolkar drew heavily on secondary sources in
his sketch of the Goan Inquisition, especially on a
late seventeenth-century Frenchman, Gabriel Dellon,
arrested in Goa, whose case was made famous
by the denunciatory account of his experiences published
after his return to France. The original trial documents
have been lost , presumably among those ordered
destroyed by the governor, and so cannot be compared
against Dellon's exuberant account of his misfortunes.

Priolkar also used the over-imaginative account of a
British clergyman, C. Buchanan, who wanted to think
that what he was not allowed to see in Old Goa in 1808
was what Dellon inveighed at more than a century
earlier.

Priolkar consulted no original documentation from the
Portuguese Holy Office which survives in other
deposits, and this renders his a deficient, if still useful,
account of the Inquisition of the late eighteenth-century
Goa. (In Goa: Continuity and Change, ed by Wagle and
Coehlo, Univ of Toronto, Centre for South Asian Studies, 1995)
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-03 21:56:01 UTC
Permalink
What is the "whole story"? "Equitable" between whom?

The problem with the Black Legend is that it's based on exaggeration,
demonising one side, and resting its arguments on narrators who are
hardly likely to be unbiased.

When JC gets defensive, he takes to the
your-religion-is-worse-off-than-mine approach (or so it seems to me).
But this really a my-colonialism-is-better-than-yours issue here. In
the scramble to justify colonialism and its effects, the Brits later
(and apparently the Dutch too, even earlier) were into building Black
Legends long before the Priolkars came along!

Of course, as Santosh says, I could be wrong.... FN
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Priolkar IMHO was not an unbiased story teller. He could
have told the whole story ....but intentionally or otherwise, did not.
Anybody who believes that Priolkar was unbiased - is
invited to provide the evidence that he was equitable in his
publications.
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-03 23:59:12 UTC
Permalink
My dear Santoshbab,

I am sure you will agree with me on two points:

[1] There are many things our forebears did which would make us hang
our heads in shame today.

[2] Sati, the Inquisition, Slavery and unprovoked wars were/and
remain abominations.

The point I wish to make, and you may disagree with me reasonably (and
FN may do so, unreasonably) is the following:

Anyone who claims to have the facts on his side MUST prove that he has
the facts, all the facts, and nothing but the facts.

Or he is noting more than a partisan writer/historian ....and .... one
is quite free to take him with a pinch of Salt.
From the vantage point of a physician: What is the point of
selectively writing about ALL the good qualities of (say)
Chloramphenicol, if you do not write about its adverse effects and
compare it the other available antibiotics?
From the vantage point of a historian: What is the point of
selectively about ALL the horrible incidents of the Inquisition
without writing about the comparative attrocities of the time.

All this is crucial in the understanding of one basic fact: Our
forebears were uncivilised animals. All of them. Everyone's forebears.
Each one's was worse than the others. Hopefully, we have evolved to be
better than them.

Do you not see the Inquistion being used as a 'beating stick' by the
right wing Hindus ...contra Catholics? Should the other side of the
stick be exposed too...or hidden in the palm?

That is where I believe that Priolkar failed. It is not what he wrote
.... it is what he failed to write.

jc



2009/8/3 Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>

The burden of proving that Priolkar was biased is on his accusers. The
defendant (or anyone else on his behalf) never has to prove his
innocence.

I guess the complaint about the whole story here means that Priolkar
should have written about Sati in a book about the Inquisition for
political balance, despite the fact that the two issues have no
historical connection. This would be a valid criticism if his book was
an opinion editorial on unjust religious practices. But the book was a
scholarly review on a specific historical subject - the Goan
Inquisition. Of course, he could have written a separate book on the
inhuman Hindu practice of Sati, in which he would then have no reason
to say anything about the inquisition. One could fault him for not
doing the latter, but to claim that his account of the inquisition is
tainted and biased just because he did not mention Sati in it is
ludicrous.

Moreover, Buchanan has written at length about Sati and other horrible
Hindu rituals. I see no more reason to disbelieve these eye-witness
accounts than those of his experiences with the inquisitor in Goa.
Having quoted from Buchanan's "Christian Researches in India",
Priolkar was most definitely aware of these descriptions of Hindu
atrocities. Indeed, as I have said earlier, this singular fact does
more than anything else to explode the bogus smears against him. It is
clear to me that he was able to set aside whatever religious feelings,
sympathies and prejudices he might have had to cite an important
historical document, which he was duty bound to do as a historian.

As far as I am concerned, the most important questions from a
scholarly perspective are the following:

1. Does Priolkar accurately state the facts that he has learned about
the inquisition from the sources that he cites?

2. Does he cite all the sources that were available to him?

3. Does he selectively quote from certain sources, and leave out other
materials and sources?

3. Does he embellish or exaggerate anything for political, communal or
nationalistic purposes?

4. Have the facts that he cites been shown by other unbiased
researchers to be inaccurate based on independent research?

5. Are his sources shown to be unreliable by other unbiased
researchers based on sound independent research?

In the next couple of weeks I will have answers to these questions
because I will have completed a thorough reading and review of the
newly published edition of Priolkar's book.
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-03 21:56:01 UTC
Permalink
What is the "whole story"? "Equitable" between whom?

The problem with the Black Legend is that it's based on exaggeration,
demonising one side, and resting its arguments on narrators who are
hardly likely to be unbiased.

When JC gets defensive, he takes to the
your-religion-is-worse-off-than-mine approach (or so it seems to me).
But this really a my-colonialism-is-better-than-yours issue here. In
the scramble to justify colonialism and its effects, the Brits later
(and apparently the Dutch too, even earlier) were into building Black
Legends long before the Priolkars came along!

Of course, as Santosh says, I could be wrong.... FN
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Priolkar IMHO was not an unbiased story teller. He could
have told the whole story ....but intentionally or otherwise, did not.
Anybody who believes that Priolkar was unbiased - is
invited to provide the evidence that he was equitable in his
publications.
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-03 23:59:12 UTC
Permalink
My dear Santoshbab,

I am sure you will agree with me on two points:

[1] There are many things our forebears did which would make us hang
our heads in shame today.

[2] Sati, the Inquisition, Slavery and unprovoked wars were/and
remain abominations.

The point I wish to make, and you may disagree with me reasonably (and
FN may do so, unreasonably) is the following:

Anyone who claims to have the facts on his side MUST prove that he has
the facts, all the facts, and nothing but the facts.

Or he is noting more than a partisan writer/historian ....and .... one
is quite free to take him with a pinch of Salt.
From the vantage point of a physician: What is the point of
selectively writing about ALL the good qualities of (say)
Chloramphenicol, if you do not write about its adverse effects and
compare it the other available antibiotics?
From the vantage point of a historian: What is the point of
selectively about ALL the horrible incidents of the Inquisition
without writing about the comparative attrocities of the time.

All this is crucial in the understanding of one basic fact: Our
forebears were uncivilised animals. All of them. Everyone's forebears.
Each one's was worse than the others. Hopefully, we have evolved to be
better than them.

Do you not see the Inquistion being used as a 'beating stick' by the
right wing Hindus ...contra Catholics? Should the other side of the
stick be exposed too...or hidden in the palm?

That is where I believe that Priolkar failed. It is not what he wrote
.... it is what he failed to write.

jc



2009/8/3 Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>

The burden of proving that Priolkar was biased is on his accusers. The
defendant (or anyone else on his behalf) never has to prove his
innocence.

I guess the complaint about the whole story here means that Priolkar
should have written about Sati in a book about the Inquisition for
political balance, despite the fact that the two issues have no
historical connection. This would be a valid criticism if his book was
an opinion editorial on unjust religious practices. But the book was a
scholarly review on a specific historical subject - the Goan
Inquisition. Of course, he could have written a separate book on the
inhuman Hindu practice of Sati, in which he would then have no reason
to say anything about the inquisition. One could fault him for not
doing the latter, but to claim that his account of the inquisition is
tainted and biased just because he did not mention Sati in it is
ludicrous.

Moreover, Buchanan has written at length about Sati and other horrible
Hindu rituals. I see no more reason to disbelieve these eye-witness
accounts than those of his experiences with the inquisitor in Goa.
Having quoted from Buchanan's "Christian Researches in India",
Priolkar was most definitely aware of these descriptions of Hindu
atrocities. Indeed, as I have said earlier, this singular fact does
more than anything else to explode the bogus smears against him. It is
clear to me that he was able to set aside whatever religious feelings,
sympathies and prejudices he might have had to cite an important
historical document, which he was duty bound to do as a historian.

As far as I am concerned, the most important questions from a
scholarly perspective are the following:

1. Does Priolkar accurately state the facts that he has learned about
the inquisition from the sources that he cites?

2. Does he cite all the sources that were available to him?

3. Does he selectively quote from certain sources, and leave out other
materials and sources?

3. Does he embellish or exaggerate anything for political, communal or
nationalistic purposes?

4. Have the facts that he cites been shown by other unbiased
researchers to be inaccurate based on independent research?

5. Are his sources shown to be unreliable by other unbiased
researchers based on sound independent research?

In the next couple of weeks I will have answers to these questions
because I will have completed a thorough reading and review of the
newly published edition of Priolkar's book.
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-03 21:56:01 UTC
Permalink
What is the "whole story"? "Equitable" between whom?

The problem with the Black Legend is that it's based on exaggeration,
demonising one side, and resting its arguments on narrators who are
hardly likely to be unbiased.

When JC gets defensive, he takes to the
your-religion-is-worse-off-than-mine approach (or so it seems to me).
But this really a my-colonialism-is-better-than-yours issue here. In
the scramble to justify colonialism and its effects, the Brits later
(and apparently the Dutch too, even earlier) were into building Black
Legends long before the Priolkars came along!

Of course, as Santosh says, I could be wrong.... FN
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Priolkar IMHO was not an unbiased story teller. He could
have told the whole story ....but intentionally or otherwise, did not.
Anybody who believes that Priolkar was unbiased - is
invited to provide the evidence that he was equitable in his
publications.
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-03 23:59:12 UTC
Permalink
My dear Santoshbab,

I am sure you will agree with me on two points:

[1] There are many things our forebears did which would make us hang
our heads in shame today.

[2] Sati, the Inquisition, Slavery and unprovoked wars were/and
remain abominations.

The point I wish to make, and you may disagree with me reasonably (and
FN may do so, unreasonably) is the following:

Anyone who claims to have the facts on his side MUST prove that he has
the facts, all the facts, and nothing but the facts.

Or he is noting more than a partisan writer/historian ....and .... one
is quite free to take him with a pinch of Salt.
From the vantage point of a physician: What is the point of
selectively writing about ALL the good qualities of (say)
Chloramphenicol, if you do not write about its adverse effects and
compare it the other available antibiotics?
From the vantage point of a historian: What is the point of
selectively about ALL the horrible incidents of the Inquisition
without writing about the comparative attrocities of the time.

All this is crucial in the understanding of one basic fact: Our
forebears were uncivilised animals. All of them. Everyone's forebears.
Each one's was worse than the others. Hopefully, we have evolved to be
better than them.

Do you not see the Inquistion being used as a 'beating stick' by the
right wing Hindus ...contra Catholics? Should the other side of the
stick be exposed too...or hidden in the palm?

That is where I believe that Priolkar failed. It is not what he wrote
.... it is what he failed to write.

jc



2009/8/3 Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at yahoo.com>

The burden of proving that Priolkar was biased is on his accusers. The
defendant (or anyone else on his behalf) never has to prove his
innocence.

I guess the complaint about the whole story here means that Priolkar
should have written about Sati in a book about the Inquisition for
political balance, despite the fact that the two issues have no
historical connection. This would be a valid criticism if his book was
an opinion editorial on unjust religious practices. But the book was a
scholarly review on a specific historical subject - the Goan
Inquisition. Of course, he could have written a separate book on the
inhuman Hindu practice of Sati, in which he would then have no reason
to say anything about the inquisition. One could fault him for not
doing the latter, but to claim that his account of the inquisition is
tainted and biased just because he did not mention Sati in it is
ludicrous.

Moreover, Buchanan has written at length about Sati and other horrible
Hindu rituals. I see no more reason to disbelieve these eye-witness
accounts than those of his experiences with the inquisitor in Goa.
Having quoted from Buchanan's "Christian Researches in India",
Priolkar was most definitely aware of these descriptions of Hindu
atrocities. Indeed, as I have said earlier, this singular fact does
more than anything else to explode the bogus smears against him. It is
clear to me that he was able to set aside whatever religious feelings,
sympathies and prejudices he might have had to cite an important
historical document, which he was duty bound to do as a historian.

As far as I am concerned, the most important questions from a
scholarly perspective are the following:

1. Does Priolkar accurately state the facts that he has learned about
the inquisition from the sources that he cites?

2. Does he cite all the sources that were available to him?

3. Does he selectively quote from certain sources, and leave out other
materials and sources?

3. Does he embellish or exaggerate anything for political, communal or
nationalistic purposes?

4. Have the facts that he cites been shown by other unbiased
researchers to be inaccurate based on independent research?

5. Are his sources shown to be unreliable by other unbiased
researchers based on sound independent research?

In the next couple of weeks I will have answers to these questions
because I will have completed a thorough reading and review of the
newly published edition of Priolkar's book.
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 21:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
You're missing the point about Buchanan's bias, and the
question of how Anant Kakba Priolkar could rely on part of
the bigoted views of a man like this. He seems to be having
a problem with every aspect of belief and practise which
doesn't belong to his tradition.
On the contrary, this is once again a superficial assessment of Buchanan's writings. Whatever his biases might me, when one actually reads his descriptions it becomes clear that he was an excellent narrator of events that happened before his eyes. I have no reason to doubt what he witnessed at Jagannath Puri or Juggernaut, as he refers to it. But more importantly, his descriptions of his experiences in Goa in 1808 are completely sanitized by comparison. There is absolutely no exaggeration of any kind, and his expressed personal opinions and comments are few and far between.

I hope Noronha finds the time to actually read Buchanan's books before commenting on him next time.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2009-08-03 19:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Everytime JoeGoaUK posts the famous C.Alvaris song, I can't help but watch that video which is an absolute tribute our Goan culture.

But who is that stunning girl in the boat, Rita Lobo? Was she a singer of the times? Why is not as well known as Lorna for instance?

Ofcourse, Lorna's singing is in a class of her own. Who can beat those sultry notes accompanying Chris Perry's Jazz tunes? I can feel my hair stand on edge just thinking about them.

But that Rita Lobo must have been a real head-turner in her days for I have rarely seen a woman as beautiful as her.

best,
selma
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-04 03:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
That is where I believe that Priolkar failed. It is not
what he wrote.... it is what he failed to write.
Dear Josebab,

Thanks for your clarifications. Based on your yardstick, I sense that you would agree with me that Claudius Buchanan was an unbiased reporter of his experiences in the countries of India, as he put it, because he was brutally honest about what he saw, whether it was the practice of Sati, the vultures tearing into the flesh of pilgrims who sacrificed themselves under wheels of the towering ruth of the Moloch Jagannath or the mostly friendly conversations with the Vice Inquisitor in the Holy Office in Goa. Unfortunately, Frederick Noronha does not. He believes by embellishment, exaggeration and extrapolation of selected quotes from extraneous authors that Buchanan was a bigot, and therefore cannot be trusted.

Cheers,

Santosh
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-04 09:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar wrote: Based on your yardstick, I sense that you would
agree with me that Claudius Buchanan was an unbiased reporter of his
experiences in the countries of India, as he put it, because he was
brutally honest ABOUT WHAT HE SAW, whether it was the practice of
Sati,

My dear Santoshbab,

For me to do the above, I'd have to know for sure that He Actually SAW
the stuff himself.

I am unable to do that; Are you?


Now, - Is he reporting (on page 10) what he SAW or what he may have HEARD?

I know the stuff he describes is BRUTAL, and he was probably repeating
it HONESTLY, but did he actually SEE the stuff.

One of the reasons hearsay is not accepted in official forums is
because folks who relate stories - are known to apply rechiado masala
to it.

jc
unknown
2009-08-04 16:03:32 UTC
Permalink
We can split hairs till the cows come home. The question is just
whether the depiction of the Inquisition in Goa also suffers from a
Black Legend and whether those who did such a good job of spreading
its story across centuries and across countries did it with vested
interests or not.

After believing the likes of Priolkar and Dellon ("after all, he is a
Catholic himself") for long, the more one digs-up the more one gets
convinced that the answer to both the queries above is an unambiguous
yes.

To understand "why" will need more pieces of the jig-saw to fall into
place, though there are a lot of hints already available. Does anyone
have access to the so-far untranslated work of Antonio Baiao? Even
Prof Higgs from Toronto gives us interesting insights to believe that
the Inquisition was more about power and class, rather than religion
and communalism (as made out to be in contemporary India). FN
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Santosh Helekar wrote: Based on your yardstick, I sense that you would
agree with me that Claudius Buchanan was an unbiased reporter of his
experiences in the countries of India, as he put it, because he was
brutally honest ?ABOUT WHAT HE SAW, whether it was the practice of
Sati,
My dear Santoshbab,
For me to do the above, I'd have to know for sure that He Actually SAW
the stuff ?himself.
I am unable to do that; Are you?...
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-04 21:50:32 UTC
Permalink
Frederick [FN] Noronha wrote:

[1]? We can split hairs till the cows come home.
[2] The question is just whether the depiction of the Inquisition in
Goa also suffers from a Black Legend
[3] ?Does anyone have access to the so-far untranslated work of Antonio Baiao?


jc's response:

No cows coming here to our little home.

The Black Legend always has a White Legend. They (the Catholics) are
black (bad). We (the non-Catholics) are white (good). This explains
(or should explain) why I personally find the use of Priolkar's work
by the "pure and white" folks ....very suspect. This explains (or
should explain) why I find Priolkar's work biased (perhaps
unintentionally, perhaps not).

For, IF any historian worth his salt was to write substantively about
the affairs of the subcontinent, he would have written about the MAJOR
causes of suffering on the sub-continent at the time i.e. The slavery
of the Caste System, The degradation of females via the Devadasi
system, The Sati burnings, Bonded families, etc.

But ....he did not.

Is it that he was incapable of writing about these topics? or Is it
that these topics were not very important.

Just imagine a medical writer ...writing a major treatise about
Constipation .......in the midst of a Cholera epidemic. Would you
wonder or not, if this writer had an agenda (link with the ex-lax
people) or perhaps was not very well connected in the penthouse.

This is not to say that his article on Constipation was not accurate.

BTW, FN ....why are we so focussed on the "untranslated work of
Antonio Baiao"? Was it perchance written in a language that Priolkar
did not understand?

jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-04 21:50:32 UTC
Permalink
Frederick [FN] Noronha wrote:

[1]? We can split hairs till the cows come home.
[2] The question is just whether the depiction of the Inquisition in
Goa also suffers from a Black Legend
[3] ?Does anyone have access to the so-far untranslated work of Antonio Baiao?


jc's response:

No cows coming here to our little home.

The Black Legend always has a White Legend. They (the Catholics) are
black (bad). We (the non-Catholics) are white (good). This explains
(or should explain) why I personally find the use of Priolkar's work
by the "pure and white" folks ....very suspect. This explains (or
should explain) why I find Priolkar's work biased (perhaps
unintentionally, perhaps not).

For, IF any historian worth his salt was to write substantively about
the affairs of the subcontinent, he would have written about the MAJOR
causes of suffering on the sub-continent at the time i.e. The slavery
of the Caste System, The degradation of females via the Devadasi
system, The Sati burnings, Bonded families, etc.

But ....he did not.

Is it that he was incapable of writing about these topics? or Is it
that these topics were not very important.

Just imagine a medical writer ...writing a major treatise about
Constipation .......in the midst of a Cholera epidemic. Would you
wonder or not, if this writer had an agenda (link with the ex-lax
people) or perhaps was not very well connected in the penthouse.

This is not to say that his article on Constipation was not accurate.

BTW, FN ....why are we so focussed on the "untranslated work of
Antonio Baiao"? Was it perchance written in a language that Priolkar
did not understand?

jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-04 21:50:32 UTC
Permalink
Frederick [FN] Noronha wrote:

[1]? We can split hairs till the cows come home.
[2] The question is just whether the depiction of the Inquisition in
Goa also suffers from a Black Legend
[3] ?Does anyone have access to the so-far untranslated work of Antonio Baiao?


jc's response:

No cows coming here to our little home.

The Black Legend always has a White Legend. They (the Catholics) are
black (bad). We (the non-Catholics) are white (good). This explains
(or should explain) why I personally find the use of Priolkar's work
by the "pure and white" folks ....very suspect. This explains (or
should explain) why I find Priolkar's work biased (perhaps
unintentionally, perhaps not).

For, IF any historian worth his salt was to write substantively about
the affairs of the subcontinent, he would have written about the MAJOR
causes of suffering on the sub-continent at the time i.e. The slavery
of the Caste System, The degradation of females via the Devadasi
system, The Sati burnings, Bonded families, etc.

But ....he did not.

Is it that he was incapable of writing about these topics? or Is it
that these topics were not very important.

Just imagine a medical writer ...writing a major treatise about
Constipation .......in the midst of a Cholera epidemic. Would you
wonder or not, if this writer had an agenda (link with the ex-lax
people) or perhaps was not very well connected in the penthouse.

This is not to say that his article on Constipation was not accurate.

BTW, FN ....why are we so focussed on the "untranslated work of
Antonio Baiao"? Was it perchance written in a language that Priolkar
did not understand?

jc
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-04 16:03:32 UTC
Permalink
We can split hairs till the cows come home. The question is just
whether the depiction of the Inquisition in Goa also suffers from a
Black Legend and whether those who did such a good job of spreading
its story across centuries and across countries did it with vested
interests or not.

After believing the likes of Priolkar and Dellon ("after all, he is a
Catholic himself") for long, the more one digs-up the more one gets
convinced that the answer to both the queries above is an unambiguous
yes.

To understand "why" will need more pieces of the jig-saw to fall into
place, though there are a lot of hints already available. Does anyone
have access to the so-far untranslated work of Antonio Baiao? Even
Prof Higgs from Toronto gives us interesting insights to believe that
the Inquisition was more about power and class, rather than religion
and communalism (as made out to be in contemporary India). FN
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Santosh Helekar wrote: Based on your yardstick, I sense that you would
agree with me that Claudius Buchanan was an unbiased reporter of his
experiences in the countries of India, as he put it, because he was
brutally honest ?ABOUT WHAT HE SAW, whether it was the practice of
Sati,
My dear Santoshbab,
For me to do the above, I'd have to know for sure that He Actually SAW
the stuff ?himself.
I am unable to do that; Are you?...
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-04 16:03:32 UTC
Permalink
We can split hairs till the cows come home. The question is just
whether the depiction of the Inquisition in Goa also suffers from a
Black Legend and whether those who did such a good job of spreading
its story across centuries and across countries did it with vested
interests or not.

After believing the likes of Priolkar and Dellon ("after all, he is a
Catholic himself") for long, the more one digs-up the more one gets
convinced that the answer to both the queries above is an unambiguous
yes.

To understand "why" will need more pieces of the jig-saw to fall into
place, though there are a lot of hints already available. Does anyone
have access to the so-far untranslated work of Antonio Baiao? Even
Prof Higgs from Toronto gives us interesting insights to believe that
the Inquisition was more about power and class, rather than religion
and communalism (as made out to be in contemporary India). FN
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Santosh Helekar wrote: Based on your yardstick, I sense that you would
agree with me that Claudius Buchanan was an unbiased reporter of his
experiences in the countries of India, as he put it, because he was
brutally honest ?ABOUT WHAT HE SAW, whether it was the practice of
Sati,
My dear Santoshbab,
For me to do the above, I'd have to know for sure that He Actually SAW
the stuff ?himself.
I am unable to do that; Are you?...
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-04 09:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar wrote: Based on your yardstick, I sense that you would
agree with me that Claudius Buchanan was an unbiased reporter of his
experiences in the countries of India, as he put it, because he was
brutally honest ABOUT WHAT HE SAW, whether it was the practice of
Sati,

My dear Santoshbab,

For me to do the above, I'd have to know for sure that He Actually SAW
the stuff himself.

I am unable to do that; Are you?


Now, - Is he reporting (on page 10) what he SAW or what he may have HEARD?

I know the stuff he describes is BRUTAL, and he was probably repeating
it HONESTLY, but did he actually SEE the stuff.

One of the reasons hearsay is not accepted in official forums is
because folks who relate stories - are known to apply rechiado masala
to it.

jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-04 09:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Santosh Helekar wrote: Based on your yardstick, I sense that you would
agree with me that Claudius Buchanan was an unbiased reporter of his
experiences in the countries of India, as he put it, because he was
brutally honest ABOUT WHAT HE SAW, whether it was the practice of
Sati,

My dear Santoshbab,

For me to do the above, I'd have to know for sure that He Actually SAW
the stuff himself.

I am unable to do that; Are you?


Now, - Is he reporting (on page 10) what he SAW or what he may have HEARD?

I know the stuff he describes is BRUTAL, and he was probably repeating
it HONESTLY, but did he actually SEE the stuff.

One of the reasons hearsay is not accepted in official forums is
because folks who relate stories - are known to apply rechiado masala
to it.

jc
JoeGoaUk
2009-08-04 09:24:50 UTC
Permalink
[Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?

Thank you Selma ,

I too like to see her now.
If she was then say 20, she must be now around 65.

2 years ago, I was told that she (Rita Lobo) often shuttle between Dubai and Andheri in Bombay .

The ?Amchem Noxib? heroine Rita Lobo is Manglorean.
Rita is seen with C Alvares in the Canoe/boat song ?Mollbavelo Dhou?
In this clip


The playback singer is Molly
(One may get all this and more info in the forthcoming FR?s Song book)

However, my source was Isidore Dantas who also
happens to be a first cousin of Frank Fernand.

One can read more on FF etc in Goa Today issue of May 2007

Some snap-shots from the clip ? Rita Lobo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512428840/sizes/s/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512430420/sizes/s/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512466345/sizes/s/

C Alvares
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512470121/sizes/s/


Besides Molly, ther singers in the film 'Amchem Noxib' were..
Anthony Mendes, Antonette, Juliet, Janet, Martha and Star of Arossim.

Lyrics by: M. Boyer, C. Alvares, Remmie Colaco and Alfred Rose.

These 3 songs sung by Molly
1. SONTOSH BHOGTA,


2. I LOST MY HEART TO YOU &


3. MOLLBAVELO DHOV
http://youtu.be/kzH-BUVRzig

Where as
MANDO GOENCHO KHORO sung by Molly, Julliet & Janette)
(watch part2)

YO MOGA TUM MHOZO sung by Star of Arossim, Martha, Molly and Chorus
http://youtu.be/L1QKuGQ7DTg

BHENKDAITA PAI by Anthony Mendes & Antonette


MOGACHEM TARUM by Anthony Mendes


Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk

for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/

For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa

In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc
Mario Goveia
2009-08-04 14:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>

But who is that stunning girl in the boat, Rita Lobo? Was she a singer of the times? Why is not as well known as Lorna for instance?

Ofcourse, Lorna's singing is in a class of her own. Who can beat those sultry notes accompanying Chris Perry's Jazz tunes? I can feel my hair stand on edge just thinking about them.

Mario observes:

Selma,

You forgot to add, "the bleep ..." in the subject line:-))

I hope the title of your upcoming book is "Who the bleep cares...?":-))

Anyway, while Lorna is all you say she is, powerful and sultry, my favorite Goan voice by far is the super-smooth and silky Luzia Noronha, who should be making more solo albums in my never-humble opinion rather than the one called "A Touch of Class". Check it out at Sinaris and hear for yourselves.
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-04 17:12:25 UTC
Permalink
In the latest Noronha post appended below he is once again trying to pull wool over the eyes of Goanetters. Despite his claims, Noronha has dug up nothing to refute the observations of Priolkar, Dellon or Buchanan. The application of the black legend ideology to the Goan situation is a figment of Noronha's imagination. He has provided not a single piece of factual evidence to back it up. No genuine historian or scholar has proposed the application of this theory to the inquisition in Goa based on his or her research.

What takes the cake for me, however, is the implication below that no one has translated Antonio Baiao's work on the inquisition to find out what it says. This tells me that Noronha has no idea about what Priolkar has written in his book because the truth is that Priolkar has relied heavily on the archival publications of Baiao for his work.

The bogus claims of "digging up" and reliance on "hints" and ideology, rather than actually reading the books in question continues to fascinate me.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by unknown
We can split hairs till the cows come home. The question is
just
whether the depiction of the Inquisition in Goa also
suffers from a
Black Legend and whether those who did such a good job of
spreading
its story across centuries and across countries did it with
vested
interests or not.
After believing the likes of Priolkar and Dellon ("after
all, he is a
Catholic himself") for long, the more one digs-up the more
one gets
convinced that the answer to both the queries above is an
unambiguous
yes.
To understand "why" will need more pieces of the jig-saw to
fall into
place, though there are a lot of hints already available.
Does anyone
have access to the so-far untranslated work of Antonio
Baiao? Even
Prof Higgs from Toronto gives us interesting insights to
believe that
the Inquisition was more about power and class, rather than
religion
and communalism (as made out to be in contemporary India).
FN
unknown
2009-08-04 18:02:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
What takes the cake for me, however, is the
implication below that no one has translated
Antonio Baiao's work on the inquisition to find
out what it says. This tells me that Noronha
has no idea about what Priolkar has written
in his book because the truth is that Priolkar
has relied heavily on the archival publications
of Baiao for his work.
Quite a mix-up indeed! Priolkar citing Baiao doesn't change the fact
that Baiao hasn't been translated!

QUOTE:

Baiao's book is hard to come by, particularly the second volume. The
work has not been republished and WAS NEVER TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH
[emphasis added]. The 1907 brief pamphlet by Jordao apolinario de
Freitas, and the mid nineteenth-century Narracao da Inquisicao de Goa
are both rare.

Much better known is Anant Kakbar (sic) Priolkar's 1961 study,
published in the year of the liberation of Goa from Portugal by
invading Indian forces, published in Bombay, and something of a
bibliographical rarity outside of the subcontinent... -- David Higgs,
'The Inquisition in Late Eighteenth-Century Goa, inGoa: Continuity and
Change (Narendra K Wagle and George Coehlo, eds, Toronto 1995)

Also, from the same source:

"Priolkar consulted no original documentation from the Portuguese Holy
Office which still survives in other deposits and this renders his a
deficient, if still useful, account of the Inquisition in late
eighteenth-century Goa...."
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-04 18:02:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
What takes the cake for me, however, is the
implication below that no one has translated
Antonio Baiao's work on the inquisition to find
out what it says. This tells me that Noronha
has no idea about what Priolkar has written
in his book because the truth is that Priolkar
has relied heavily on the archival publications
of Baiao for his work.
Quite a mix-up indeed! Priolkar citing Baiao doesn't change the fact
that Baiao hasn't been translated!

QUOTE:

Baiao's book is hard to come by, particularly the second volume. The
work has not been republished and WAS NEVER TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH
[emphasis added]. The 1907 brief pamphlet by Jordao apolinario de
Freitas, and the mid nineteenth-century Narracao da Inquisicao de Goa
are both rare.

Much better known is Anant Kakbar (sic) Priolkar's 1961 study,
published in the year of the liberation of Goa from Portugal by
invading Indian forces, published in Bombay, and something of a
bibliographical rarity outside of the subcontinent... -- David Higgs,
'The Inquisition in Late Eighteenth-Century Goa, inGoa: Continuity and
Change (Narendra K Wagle and George Coehlo, eds, Toronto 1995)

Also, from the same source:

"Priolkar consulted no original documentation from the Portuguese Holy
Office which still survives in other deposits and this renders his a
deficient, if still useful, account of the Inquisition in late
eighteenth-century Goa...."
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Frederick [FN] Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या
2009-08-04 18:02:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
What takes the cake for me, however, is the
implication below that no one has translated
Antonio Baiao's work on the inquisition to find
out what it says. This tells me that Noronha
has no idea about what Priolkar has written
in his book because the truth is that Priolkar
has relied heavily on the archival publications
of Baiao for his work.
Quite a mix-up indeed! Priolkar citing Baiao doesn't change the fact
that Baiao hasn't been translated!

QUOTE:

Baiao's book is hard to come by, particularly the second volume. The
work has not been republished and WAS NEVER TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH
[emphasis added]. The 1907 brief pamphlet by Jordao apolinario de
Freitas, and the mid nineteenth-century Narracao da Inquisicao de Goa
are both rare.

Much better known is Anant Kakbar (sic) Priolkar's 1961 study,
published in the year of the liberation of Goa from Portugal by
invading Indian forces, published in Bombay, and something of a
bibliographical rarity outside of the subcontinent... -- David Higgs,
'The Inquisition in Late Eighteenth-Century Goa, inGoa: Continuity and
Change (Narendra K Wagle and George Coehlo, eds, Toronto 1995)

Also, from the same source:

"Priolkar consulted no original documentation from the Portuguese Holy
Office which still survives in other deposits and this renders his a
deficient, if still useful, account of the Inquisition in late
eighteenth-century Goa...."
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Carvalho
2009-08-04 17:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Well if this doesn't prove the world is round and small nothing else does. I now find out that I was only 6 degrees separated from Rita lobo all the time, because I knew her son all along ;-) So the admiration society was rather mutual :-)

Best,
selma
Post by JoeGoaUk
[Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?
?
Thank you Selma ,
?
I too like to see her now.
If she was then say 20,? she must be now around 65.
?
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-04 20:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Antonio Baiao's publication is in Portuguese. Priolkar's book, which makes extensive use of the relevant material from it, is in English. Now please note the claim below that Baiao has not been translated, and the earlier smearing of Priolkar to create the impression that he was biased because he was relying essentially on two biased sources - Dellon and Buchanan. As far as the material from Higgs below is concerned, the historian C. R. Boxer directly contradicts his opinions. Here is what Boxer says:

QUOTE
...the author (Priolkar) has made excellent use of all the relevant Portuguese material which is available in print. He has rightly relied heavily on the documents from the Goa archives published by J. H. da Cunha Rivara a century ago, and on the more recent archival publications by A. Baiao and Panduronga Pissurlencar.....

...Dr. Priolkar has performed a valuable service in combing these works for the facts and presenting them in reliable and readable form. This work can therefore be unreservedly recommended to those who have neither the time nor the ability to read the published Portuguese sources....
UNQUOTE
....C. R. Boxer

Please also note that the beating around the bush continues on Noronha's part. He is still not able to give us an example of anything he has read which directly contradicts the facts reported by Priolkar. What's more, he is not able to provide even simple quotes from Priolkar's, Dellon's or Buchanan's books that can be regarded as distortions, exaggerations or fabrications to support his speculation/fantasy that we are dealing with a black legend here.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by unknown
Quite a mix-up indeed! Priolkar citing Baiao doesn't change
the fact that Baiao hasn't been translated!
Baiao's book is hard to come by, particularly the second
volume. The
work has not been republished and WAS NEVER TRANSLATED INTO
ENGLISH
[emphasis added]. The 1907 brief pamphlet by Jordao
apolinario de
Freitas, and the mid nineteenth-century Narracao da
Inquisicao de Goa
are both rare.
Much better known is Anant Kakbar (sic) Priolkar's 1961
study,
published in the year of the liberation of Goa from
Portugal by
invading Indian forces, published in Bombay, and something
of a
bibliographical rarity outside of the subcontinent... --
David Higgs,
Continuity and
Change (Narendra K Wagle and George Coehlo, eds, Toronto
1995)
"Priolkar consulted no original documentation from the
Portuguese Holy
Office which still survives in other deposits and this
renders his a
deficient, if still useful, account of the Inquisition in
late
eighteenth-century Goa...."
Francis Rodrigues
2009-08-04 19:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Re: Rita Lobo

Thanks Joe.

Yes, you're right - a mention occurs in my "Greatest Konkani Hits" SongBook, of both Rita Lobo and Molly. So you'll prob. have to get a copy of the Book to learn more about both!:-)

A word -

A massive amount of research went into the circumstances and backgrounds of all these "Greatest Konkani Song Hits". We uncovered spell-binding material, but unfortunately much of it either too controversial or sensitive to use. Such are the lives of artistes!

What I can tell you is that both Rita and Molly were iconic band singers of the time (the sixties), Rita particularly sweet-voiced at the swish "Blue Nile" Cross Maidan brasserie (made famous in later years by Chris and Lorna!).

Molly, on the other hand was sultrier and more powerful, part of Chris' quintet at the Astoria's "Venice" restaurant, later moving with his outfit to Calcutta. Her late husband the pianist Mervyn and she, teamed up to perform at Bombay's "Little Hut" on her return from Calcutta.

In an interview I did with some of the musicians who backed up Rita at the time, mention was made of her most adorable little boy who accompanied her to most performances.

More than that, would be revealing!

Best,
Francis.
..............
On Tue, 4 Aug 2009, JoeGoaUk wrote:
Subject: [Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?
To: goanet at goanet.org

[Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?

Thank you Selma ,

I too like to see her now.
If she was then say 20, she must be now around 65.

2 years ago, I was told that she (Rita Lobo) often shuttle between Dubai and Andheri in Bombay .

The Amchem Noxib heroine Rita Lobo is Manglorean.
Rita is seen with C Alvares in the Canoe/boat song Mollbavelo Dhou
In this clip
http://youtu.be/kzH-BUVRzig

The playback singer is Molly
(One may get all this and more info in the forthcoming FR's Song book)

_________________________________________________________________
Stay in the loop and chat with friends, right from your inbox!
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9671354
Carvalho
2009-08-04 21:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Shame on Goa's Congress and shame on you Mr Speaker

How dare you try to muzzle a citizen of Goa with threats of imprisonment? Who do you think you are? You are elected by the citizens of Goa, for the citizens of Goa. You are not elected to threaten our civil liberties and assume you are above the law.

What a sad day for Goa's democracy that you should even think of uttering what you did in the assembly.

I for one am for starting a petition to the Governor of Goa, to have the speaker removed.

And I sincerely hope the newspapers of Goa have the guts to stage a morcha outside his house and have him removed from the asembly.

Please, I ask all Goans to support our freedom of Press. This is an important issue.

Selma
Ashley D'silva
2009-08-05 08:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Dear, dear Selma,

Please get as many goanetters to email the GOA GOVT and see the results
first hand. I am sure every electronic hardware of sanchnet will collapse
with the over load including other systems. It works wonders - why? because
when avenues of communication collapse - the virus mill of rumours start
multiplying proportionately - and that's really bad for the GOA GOVT.
Be cool and see what happen.

Ashley D'Silva



-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
[mailto:goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org] On Behalf Of Carvalho
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 3:05 AM
To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list
Subject: [Goanet] Shame on Goa's Congress

------------------------------------------------------------------------
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services,
training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land
betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact:
contactus at sangath.com or yvonne at sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shame on Goa's Congress and shame on you Mr Speaker

How dare you try to muzzle a citizen of Goa with threats of imprisonment?
Who do you think you are? You are elected by the citizens of Goa, for the
citizens of Goa. You are not elected to threaten our civil liberties and
assume you are above the law.

What a sad day for Goa's democracy that you should even think of uttering
what you did in the assembly.

I for one am for starting a petition to the Governor of Goa, to have the
speaker removed.

And I sincerely hope the newspapers of Goa have the guts to stage a morcha
outside his house and have him removed from the asembly.

Please, I ask all Goans to support our freedom of Press. This is an
important issue.

Selma
Ashley D'silva
2009-08-05 08:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Dear, dear Selma,

Please get as many goanetters to email the GOA GOVT and see the results
first hand. I am sure every electronic hardware of sanchnet will collapse
with the over load including other systems. It works wonders - why? because
when avenues of communication collapse - the virus mill of rumours start
multiplying proportionately - and that's really bad for the GOA GOVT.
Be cool and see what happen.

Ashley D'Silva



-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
[mailto:goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org] On Behalf Of Carvalho
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 3:05 AM
To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list
Subject: [Goanet] Shame on Goa's Congress

------------------------------------------------------------------------
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services,
training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land
betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact:
contactus at sangath.com or yvonne at sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shame on Goa's Congress and shame on you Mr Speaker

How dare you try to muzzle a citizen of Goa with threats of imprisonment?
Who do you think you are? You are elected by the citizens of Goa, for the
citizens of Goa. You are not elected to threaten our civil liberties and
assume you are above the law.

What a sad day for Goa's democracy that you should even think of uttering
what you did in the assembly.

I for one am for starting a petition to the Governor of Goa, to have the
speaker removed.

And I sincerely hope the newspapers of Goa have the guts to stage a morcha
outside his house and have him removed from the asembly.

Please, I ask all Goans to support our freedom of Press. This is an
important issue.

Selma
Ashley D'silva
2009-08-05 08:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Dear, dear Selma,

Please get as many goanetters to email the GOA GOVT and see the results
first hand. I am sure every electronic hardware of sanchnet will collapse
with the over load including other systems. It works wonders - why? because
when avenues of communication collapse - the virus mill of rumours start
multiplying proportionately - and that's really bad for the GOA GOVT.
Be cool and see what happen.

Ashley D'Silva



-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org
[mailto:goanet-bounces at lists.goanet.org] On Behalf Of Carvalho
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 3:05 AM
To: estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list
Subject: [Goanet] Shame on Goa's Congress

------------------------------------------------------------------------
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services,
training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land
betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact:
contactus at sangath.com or yvonne at sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shame on Goa's Congress and shame on you Mr Speaker

How dare you try to muzzle a citizen of Goa with threats of imprisonment?
Who do you think you are? You are elected by the citizens of Goa, for the
citizens of Goa. You are not elected to threaten our civil liberties and
assume you are above the law.

What a sad day for Goa's democracy that you should even think of uttering
what you did in the assembly.

I for one am for starting a petition to the Governor of Goa, to have the
speaker removed.

And I sincerely hope the newspapers of Goa have the guts to stage a morcha
outside his house and have him removed from the asembly.

Please, I ask all Goans to support our freedom of Press. This is an
important issue.

Selma
Gilbert Lawrence
2009-08-05 02:32:05 UTC
Permalink
There are quite a few?well-written history books?REFERRING TO?the Goa Inquisition written during?or just after the Inquisition, describing this period of Goa.? A few years ago, Fred had posted on?Goanet as an e-book, what was?a research account?written by a Bombay-based British historian. He was, I think the editor of the British Gazetteer in India.?Another book is by?JN Fonseca whose book (An Historical and Archaeological sketch of the city of Goa) was written in 1878 and recently posted on Goanet.?Such books have the advantage that the authors had access to the hard official data, some of which I am told is no longer accessible, because it got burnt or shipped to Brazil.

It is not rocket science to separate fact from fiction when looking at an (in-depth / monogram) article on a topic.? Look at the bibliography (referencing the factual statements) on each page or at the end of the chapter.? If one looks at the published?bibliography there is as much as one can know about the Goa Inquisition - its? goals,? workings, numbers indicted, the fanfare of the occasion (with effigy burnings); and the documented and not so obvious rationale and goals of the powers that ruled Goa at the time a.k.a. regional geo-politics.?That is of course if one wants to look at the period in its entirety?- the?big picture. So some who say, "not much hard information is known about Goa's Inquisition" are not being honest or have failed to peruse this topic with focus, relying instead on fictional and embellished novels.

Using anecdotal writings of an author (as a victim or as a tourist)?has a place. But this is like knowing about?prostate cancer by reading the patients' account of his cancer. There is role for this, but it is obliviously limited given the narrow experience of?it's author and scholarship of the writer.? One who reads and quotes?any work,?by merely referring to opinions and conclusions? without quoting the hard facts?to support those opinions cannot be serious.?How many?scientific? papers writing on a disease, quotes the patients' account, unless as a passing comment?

And if not, Why not??
Answer: Because there are better / more quantifiable sources of information to quote.? What one references mainly is someone elses' corroborating data, NOT merely repeating their conclusions and commentary.

Prof Higgs from the University of Toronto appears to have done an extensive 'research of the? research'. I have not read his book but would love to do so, together with Priolkar's. I wish rather that quote opinions of these and other authors, one would post the factual numbers of those indicted, the type of offenses they were charged with, and their punishment; and contrast that with the author's conclusions, either defending the author or pointing to his / her contradictions.?

Personally?the only indictment one can make of the Goa?Inquisition is 'Legal Malpractice'. The individuals to make?and substantiate that charge would be lawyers. They would?compare the workings of the Inquisition with the legal practice of the time.? If non-physicians were to?look back?at medical practice of the sixteenth?to the?nineteenth century,?they would RIGHTLY call?that as Medical Malpractice ... by today's standard.
??
I was curious to see Fred's conclusions of "Prof Higgs' insights" (see below).?Now was not this what the suprulo goenkar was saying all along? And all I got was / and keep getting is?"tho kitem zano?" :-))

Regards, GL


??
---------------?On Tue, 8/4/09, Frederick Noronha

We can split hairs till the cows come home. The question is just whether the depiction of the Inquisition in Goa also?suffers from a?Black Legend and whether those who did such a good job of?spreading its story across centuries and across countries did it with vested?interests or not.
?
After believing the likes of Priolkar and Dellon ("after?all, he is a?Catholic himself") for long, the more one digs-up the more?one gets?convinced that the answer to both the queries above is an?unambiguous yes.??

Even Prof Higgs from Toronto gives us interesting insights to?believe that?the Inquisition was more about power and class, rather than?religion?and communalism (as made out to be in contemporary India).? FN
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-05 05:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Now,? - Is he reporting (on page 10) what he SAW or
what he may have HEARD?
I know the stuff he describes is BRUTAL, and he was
probably repeating it HONESTLY, but did he actually SEE the stuff.
Dear Josebab,

Please read Buchanan's "Christian Researches in India". In it Buchanan describes Satis, female infanticides and literal public self-sacrifices that he witnessed and learned through governmental sources, in gory detail. He also describes a rigorous study of the practice of Sati, which his college commissioned with the assistance of 10 Hindus under the guidance of a professor of Sanskrit.

Regarding the above reference to page 10, assuming that it refers to the preface of "An apology for promoting Christianity in India", the descriptions in question are from a treatise called "An Account of the Writings, Religion and Manners of the Hindoos, including Translations from their Principal Works" written by William Ward, and printed by the government at that time.
why are we so focussed on the "untranslated work of
Antonio Baiao"? Was it perchance written in a language that Priolkar
did not understand?
Now regarding the above insinuation, Priolkar understood Portuguese quite well. He referred to and translated relevant archival material from Antonio Baiao, as well as from many other Portuguese sources.

Cheers,

Santosh
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2009-08-03 00:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely quoted by Anant
Kakba Priolkar in his book on the Goa Inquisition:

http://books.google.com/books?id=nI0NAAAAYAAJ&dq=an+apology+for+promoting+christianity+in+india&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=_EGp9ul0pI&sig=gBtY0le8ZsMUNyoPR1l_nHJHdU4&hl=en&ei=bi12SrDoLdeIkQWSwYSODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 03:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely
This continued smearing of the historian Priolkar by the freelance journalist Noronha becomes more and more curious by each passing day. To people who know something about scholarly research, and the obligation and responsibility of researchers to discuss and cite all prior accounts that deal with the subject at hand in an impartial manner, Priolkar's citation of Buchanan's account should not be a surprise. Indeed, Priolkar's work would have been regarded as shoddy and incomplete if he had deliberately left Buchanan out.

As far as I can tell Priolkar has cited every single prior work related to the Goan inquisition, including translation of records from the Goan archives. What's more, other historians have stated that subsequent publication of a previously unknown account from the 16th or 17th century has largely confirmed Priolkar's observations.

Now why Noronha is hellbent on maligning Priolkar with all kinds of spurious hints, frivolous assertions and smoke and mirror tactics is anybody's guess.

Cheers,

Santosh
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-03 16:11:24 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the link, FN.

I am in no position to state whether the author verified the details
before publishing them.

Even so, pages 9 and 10 were very difficult to read; What went on in
the name of Sati (and still apparently goes on in certain places) was
just as inhumane to life as the Inquisition. The description on pages
9 and 10 are truly awful.

I would have had more respect for Priolkar if he had analysed the way
ALL peoples of the subcontinent treated others i.e. Burnt them alive.
The Inquisitioners burnt those who practiced another religion, The
practioners of Sati only burnt women, albeit hundreds of thousands of
them. According to the Satiests - the women had no reason to live (and
have access to property) when their husband was dead.

So, they burnt the whole lot of them.

Beats me why a "historian" who had access to the printing press, did
not invest time in investigating Sati. Was it because Sati only burnt
women? ...and because ...during his time, women were still ....kind of
worthless?

Historians (even modern day ones) will write history (i.e. his story)
from their own angle. That is why, the history of the (say) Arab
Israeli conflict has such divergence - based on who is writing the
history. It is the bias - known to researchers as something that
causes a 'skew' in the data and eventual result.

Priolkar IMHO was not an unbiased story teller. He could have told the
whole story ....but intentionally or otherwise, did not.

Anybody who believes that Priolkar was unbiased - is invited to
provide the evidence that he was equitable in his publications.

jc

==

2009/8/2 Frederick "FN" Noronha fn at goa-india.org

Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely quoted by Anant
Kakba Priolkar in his book on the Goa Inquisition:

http://books.google.com/books?id=nI0NAAAAYAAJ&dq=an+apology+for+promoting+christianity+in+india&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=_EGp9ul0pI&sig=gBtY0le8ZsMUNyoPR1l_nHJHdU4&hl=en&ei=bi12SrDoLdeIkQWSwYSODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 16:27:02 UTC
Permalink
After reading Claudius Buchanan's book entitled "Christian Researches In Asia", and the first of the letters compiled under "An Apology for Promoting christianity in India", which Frederick Noronha forwarded to Goanet in order to smear Anant Priolkar by osmosis, the following suspicions of mine have been thoroughly confirmed:

1. That Noronha has not read what he has forwarded, copied and pasted, written about and passed judgment on on Goanet regarding Buchanan and Priolkar.

2. He has relied on superficial perceptions, generalities and biases derived from such things as titles of books and political rhetoric, rather than what is inside the pages of those books or anything of substance.

3. Using the aforementioned tactics, Noronha has completely misled Goanetters and readers of his articles on this issue in Herald and Christian publications such as South Asia Religious News (Please see: http://www.sarnews.in/details.php?n=1112).

I am particularly appalled by the latter because of the communal/religious slant given to this false propaganda against Priolkar, which has now been widely circulated on the internet. Please see: http://www.speroforum.com/a/19896/The-Inquisition-in-India-and-its-critics, for another similar deception.

After reading Buchanan's book and letter, the understanding that I have achieved is exactly the opposite of the frivolous impression created by Noronha on Goanet and elsewhere. I want to substantiate this assertion of mine in great detail at a later time. But let me just state now that Buchanan's account of what he witnessed in the Holy Office of the inquisition in Goa is much more restrained, objective and clinical than I had ever imagined. I could not find anything in it that stretched my credibility, and any reason to believe that Buchanan was exercising his prejudice against the Portuguese or the Catholics. By contrast, his descriptions of Hinduism and Hindu rituals are horrifying. A devout Hindu would be outraged by them. Given the latter fact, my admiration and respect for Priolkar's objectivity has grown by leaps and bounds.

Let me close by quoting from the very material (Buchanan's letters) that Noronha has forwarded in his latest fabricated indictment of Priolkar. It will give you a good idea of where Buchanan's sympathies lay, and perhaps, those of Noronha, as well. It will also reveal to you why I think that Noronha does not read what he forwards to Goanet.

QUOTE
There is a disposition prevalent at present to disparage the testimony of the Christian Missionaries. It is supposed by their adversaries that, if they can in any way impeach the credit of a promoter of Christianity, they gain somewhat in the present question. But the cause of Christianity will prevail. It will be found, that the profession of Christianity and a desire to promote it, are generally accompanied by a love of truth. The respectability of the Christian Missionary will increase in this nation, while the character and testimony of the supporters of Brahma will sink and be diminished. It is true, an ardent zeal for the diffusion of the blessings of religion will, in some cases, particularly in the view of impious scenes, excite indignation, and may produce too high a colouring in statement (which is exeeedingly reprehensible,) and narrators may make mistakes in description. But still the substance of the facts (which they think it necessary to
communicate to their country in defence of the honour of Christianity) will remain. In like manner, a writer, animated by a zeal of a contrary character, may be able, by the power of high embellishment, by noticing indifferent circumstances and entirely suppressing others, to represent the idol Juggernaut as being merely one of "the gay and elegant deities of Greece and Rome;" but the substanee of the facts, as stated by others, will remain the same: it will still continue true, that Juggernaut is a fountain of vice and misery to millions of mankind; that the sanguinary and obscene character of the worship is in the highest degree revolting; and that it will be a must happy event when our Christian nation shall dissolve its connection with that polluted place.
UNQUOTE
.....Claudius Buchanan

More later.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely
quoted by Anant
http://books.google.com/books?id=nI0NAAAAYAAJ&dq=an+apology+for+promoting+christianity+in+india&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=_EGp9ul0pI&sig=gBtY0le8ZsMUNyoPR1l_nHJHdU4&hl=en&ei=bi12SrDoLdeIkQWSwYSODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
--
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 20:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Priolkar IMHO was not an unbiased story teller. He could
have told the whole story ....but intentionally or otherwise, did not.
Anybody who believes that Priolkar was unbiased - is
invited to provide the evidence that he was equitable in his
publications.
This is an unfair request. The burden of proving that Priolkar was biased is on his accusers. The defendant (or anyone else on his behalf) never has to prove his innocence.

I guess the complaint about the whole story here means that Priolkar should have written about Sati in a book about the Inquisition for political balance, despite the fact that the two issues have no historical connection. This would be a valid criticism if his book was an opinion editorial on unjust religious practices. But the book was a scholarly review on a specific historical subject - the Goan Inquisition. Of course, he could have written a separate book on the inhuman Hindu practice of Sati, in which he would then have no reason to say anything about the inquisition. One could fault him for not doing the latter, but to claim that his account of the inquisition is tainted and biased just because he did not mention Sati in it is ludicrous.

Moreover, Buchanan has written at length about Sati and other horrible Hindu rituals. I see no more reason to disbelieve these eye-witness accounts than those of his experiences with the inquisitor in Goa. Having quoted from Buchanan's "Christian Researches in India", Priolkar was most definitely aware of these descriptions of Hindu atrocities. Indeed, as I have said earlier, this singular fact does more than anything else to explode the bogus smears against him. It is clear to me that he was able to set aside whatever religious feelings, sympathies and prejudices he might have had to cite an important historical document, which he was duty bound to do as a historian.

As far as I am concerned, the most important questions from a scholarly perspective are the following:

1. Does Priolkar accurately state the facts that he has learned about the inquisition from the sources that he cites?

2. Does he cite all the sources that were available to him?

3. Does he selectively quote from certain sources, and leave out other materials and sources?

3. Does he embellish or exaggerate anything for political, communal or nationalistic purposes?

4. Have the facts that he cites been shown by other unbiased researchers to be inaccurate based on independent research?

5. Are his sources shown to be unreliable by other unbiased researchers based on sound independent research?

In the next couple of weeks I will have answers to these questions because I will have completed a thorough reading and review of the newly published edition of Priolkar's book.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 21:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
You're missing the point about Buchanan's bias, and the
question of how Anant Kakba Priolkar could rely on part of
the bigoted views of a man like this. He seems to be having
a problem with every aspect of belief and practise which
doesn't belong to his tradition.
On the contrary, this is once again a superficial assessment of Buchanan's writings. Whatever his biases might me, when one actually reads his descriptions it becomes clear that he was an excellent narrator of events that happened before his eyes. I have no reason to doubt what he witnessed at Jagannath Puri or Juggernaut, as he refers to it. But more importantly, his descriptions of his experiences in Goa in 1808 are completely sanitized by comparison. There is absolutely no exaggeration of any kind, and his expressed personal opinions and comments are few and far between.

I hope Noronha finds the time to actually read Buchanan's books before commenting on him next time.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2009-08-03 19:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Everytime JoeGoaUK posts the famous C.Alvaris song, I can't help but watch that video which is an absolute tribute our Goan culture.

But who is that stunning girl in the boat, Rita Lobo? Was she a singer of the times? Why is not as well known as Lorna for instance?

Ofcourse, Lorna's singing is in a class of her own. Who can beat those sultry notes accompanying Chris Perry's Jazz tunes? I can feel my hair stand on edge just thinking about them.

But that Rita Lobo must have been a real head-turner in her days for I have rarely seen a woman as beautiful as her.

best,
selma
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-04 03:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
That is where I believe that Priolkar failed. It is not
what he wrote.... it is what he failed to write.
Dear Josebab,

Thanks for your clarifications. Based on your yardstick, I sense that you would agree with me that Claudius Buchanan was an unbiased reporter of his experiences in the countries of India, as he put it, because he was brutally honest about what he saw, whether it was the practice of Sati, the vultures tearing into the flesh of pilgrims who sacrificed themselves under wheels of the towering ruth of the Moloch Jagannath or the mostly friendly conversations with the Vice Inquisitor in the Holy Office in Goa. Unfortunately, Frederick Noronha does not. He believes by embellishment, exaggeration and extrapolation of selected quotes from extraneous authors that Buchanan was a bigot, and therefore cannot be trusted.

Cheers,

Santosh
JoeGoaUk
2009-08-04 09:24:50 UTC
Permalink
[Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?

Thank you Selma ,

I too like to see her now.
If she was then say 20, she must be now around 65.

2 years ago, I was told that she (Rita Lobo) often shuttle between Dubai and Andheri in Bombay .

The ?Amchem Noxib? heroine Rita Lobo is Manglorean.
Rita is seen with C Alvares in the Canoe/boat song ?Mollbavelo Dhou?
In this clip
http://youtu.be/kzH-BUVRzig

The playback singer is Molly
(One may get all this and more info in the forthcoming FR?s Song book)

However, my source was Isidore Dantas who also
happens to be a first cousin of Frank Fernand.

One can read more on FF etc in Goa Today issue of May 2007

Some snap-shots from the clip ? Rita Lobo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512428840/sizes/s/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512430420/sizes/s/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512466345/sizes/s/

C Alvares
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512470121/sizes/s/


Besides Molly, ther singers in the film 'Amchem Noxib' were..
Anthony Mendes, Antonette, Juliet, Janet, Martha and Star of Arossim.

Lyrics by: M. Boyer, C. Alvares, Remmie Colaco and Alfred Rose.

These 3 songs sung by Molly
1. SONTOSH BHOGTA,
http://youtu.be/N2RIAS_zFZg

2. I LOST MY HEART TO YOU &
http://youtu.be/DwK6UsQbNLE

3. MOLLBAVELO DHOV
http://youtu.be/kzH-BUVRzig

Where as
MANDO GOENCHO KHORO sung by Molly, Julliet & Janette)
http://youtu.be/L1QKuGQ7DTg (watch part2)

YO MOGA TUM MHOZO sung by Star of Arossim, Martha, Molly and Chorus
http://youtu.be/L1QKuGQ7DTg

BHENKDAITA PAI by Anthony Mendes & Antonette
http://youtu.be/733NfHdp-qk

MOGACHEM TARUM by Anthony Mendes
http://youtu.be/bXDcChFItVk

Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk

for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/

For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa

In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc
Mario Goveia
2009-08-04 14:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>

But who is that stunning girl in the boat, Rita Lobo? Was she a singer of the times? Why is not as well known as Lorna for instance?

Ofcourse, Lorna's singing is in a class of her own. Who can beat those sultry notes accompanying Chris Perry's Jazz tunes? I can feel my hair stand on edge just thinking about them.

Mario observes:

Selma,

You forgot to add, "the bleep ..." in the subject line:-))

I hope the title of your upcoming book is "Who the bleep cares...?":-))

Anyway, while Lorna is all you say she is, powerful and sultry, my favorite Goan voice by far is the super-smooth and silky Luzia Noronha, who should be making more solo albums in my never-humble opinion rather than the one called "A Touch of Class". Check it out at Sinaris and hear for yourselves.
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-04 17:12:25 UTC
Permalink
In the latest Noronha post appended below he is once again trying to pull wool over the eyes of Goanetters. Despite his claims, Noronha has dug up nothing to refute the observations of Priolkar, Dellon or Buchanan. The application of the black legend ideology to the Goan situation is a figment of Noronha's imagination. He has provided not a single piece of factual evidence to back it up. No genuine historian or scholar has proposed the application of this theory to the inquisition in Goa based on his or her research.

What takes the cake for me, however, is the implication below that no one has translated Antonio Baiao's work on the inquisition to find out what it says. This tells me that Noronha has no idea about what Priolkar has written in his book because the truth is that Priolkar has relied heavily on the archival publications of Baiao for his work.

The bogus claims of "digging up" and reliance on "hints" and ideology, rather than actually reading the books in question continues to fascinate me.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by unknown
We can split hairs till the cows come home. The question is
just
whether the depiction of the Inquisition in Goa also
suffers from a
Black Legend and whether those who did such a good job of
spreading
its story across centuries and across countries did it with
vested
interests or not.
After believing the likes of Priolkar and Dellon ("after
all, he is a
Catholic himself") for long, the more one digs-up the more
one gets
convinced that the answer to both the queries above is an
unambiguous
yes.
To understand "why" will need more pieces of the jig-saw to
fall into
place, though there are a lot of hints already available.
Does anyone
have access to the so-far untranslated work of Antonio
Baiao? Even
Prof Higgs from Toronto gives us interesting insights to
believe that
the Inquisition was more about power and class, rather than
religion
and communalism (as made out to be in contemporary India).
FN
Carvalho
2009-08-04 17:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Well if this doesn't prove the world is round and small nothing else does. I now find out that I was only 6 degrees separated from Rita lobo all the time, because I knew her son all along ;-) So the admiration society was rather mutual :-)

Best,
selma
Post by JoeGoaUk
[Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?
?
Thank you Selma ,
?
I too like to see her now.
If she was then say 20,? she must be now around 65.
?
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-04 20:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Antonio Baiao's publication is in Portuguese. Priolkar's book, which makes extensive use of the relevant material from it, is in English. Now please note the claim below that Baiao has not been translated, and the earlier smearing of Priolkar to create the impression that he was biased because he was relying essentially on two biased sources - Dellon and Buchanan. As far as the material from Higgs below is concerned, the historian C. R. Boxer directly contradicts his opinions. Here is what Boxer says:

QUOTE
...the author (Priolkar) has made excellent use of all the relevant Portuguese material which is available in print. He has rightly relied heavily on the documents from the Goa archives published by J. H. da Cunha Rivara a century ago, and on the more recent archival publications by A. Baiao and Panduronga Pissurlencar.....

...Dr. Priolkar has performed a valuable service in combing these works for the facts and presenting them in reliable and readable form. This work can therefore be unreservedly recommended to those who have neither the time nor the ability to read the published Portuguese sources....
UNQUOTE
....C. R. Boxer

Please also note that the beating around the bush continues on Noronha's part. He is still not able to give us an example of anything he has read which directly contradicts the facts reported by Priolkar. What's more, he is not able to provide even simple quotes from Priolkar's, Dellon's or Buchanan's books that can be regarded as distortions, exaggerations or fabrications to support his speculation/fantasy that we are dealing with a black legend here.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by unknown
Quite a mix-up indeed! Priolkar citing Baiao doesn't change
the fact that Baiao hasn't been translated!
Baiao's book is hard to come by, particularly the second
volume. The
work has not been republished and WAS NEVER TRANSLATED INTO
ENGLISH
[emphasis added]. The 1907 brief pamphlet by Jordao
apolinario de
Freitas, and the mid nineteenth-century Narracao da
Inquisicao de Goa
are both rare.
Much better known is Anant Kakbar (sic) Priolkar's 1961
study,
published in the year of the liberation of Goa from
Portugal by
invading Indian forces, published in Bombay, and something
of a
bibliographical rarity outside of the subcontinent... --
David Higgs,
Continuity and
Change (Narendra K Wagle and George Coehlo, eds, Toronto
1995)
"Priolkar consulted no original documentation from the
Portuguese Holy
Office which still survives in other deposits and this
renders his a
deficient, if still useful, account of the Inquisition in
late
eighteenth-century Goa...."
Francis Rodrigues
2009-08-04 19:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Re: Rita Lobo

Thanks Joe.

Yes, you're right - a mention occurs in my "Greatest Konkani Hits" SongBook, of both Rita Lobo and Molly. So you'll prob. have to get a copy of the Book to learn more about both!:-)

A word -

A massive amount of research went into the circumstances and backgrounds of all these "Greatest Konkani Song Hits". We uncovered spell-binding material, but unfortunately much of it either too controversial or sensitive to use. Such are the lives of artistes!

What I can tell you is that both Rita and Molly were iconic band singers of the time (the sixties), Rita particularly sweet-voiced at the swish "Blue Nile" Cross Maidan brasserie (made famous in later years by Chris and Lorna!).

Molly, on the other hand was sultrier and more powerful, part of Chris' quintet at the Astoria's "Venice" restaurant, later moving with his outfit to Calcutta. Her late husband the pianist Mervyn and she, teamed up to perform at Bombay's "Little Hut" on her return from Calcutta.

In an interview I did with some of the musicians who backed up Rita at the time, mention was made of her most adorable little boy who accompanied her to most performances.

More than that, would be revealing!

Best,
Francis.
..............
On Tue, 4 Aug 2009, JoeGoaUk wrote:
Subject: [Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?
To: goanet at goanet.org

[Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?

Thank you Selma ,

I too like to see her now.
If she was then say 20, she must be now around 65.

2 years ago, I was told that she (Rita Lobo) often shuttle between Dubai and Andheri in Bombay .

The Amchem Noxib heroine Rita Lobo is Manglorean.
Rita is seen with C Alvares in the Canoe/boat song Mollbavelo Dhou
In this clip
http://youtu.be/kzH-BUVRzig

The playback singer is Molly
(One may get all this and more info in the forthcoming FR's Song book)

_________________________________________________________________
Stay in the loop and chat with friends, right from your inbox!
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9671354
Carvalho
2009-08-04 21:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Shame on Goa's Congress and shame on you Mr Speaker

How dare you try to muzzle a citizen of Goa with threats of imprisonment? Who do you think you are? You are elected by the citizens of Goa, for the citizens of Goa. You are not elected to threaten our civil liberties and assume you are above the law.

What a sad day for Goa's democracy that you should even think of uttering what you did in the assembly.

I for one am for starting a petition to the Governor of Goa, to have the speaker removed.

And I sincerely hope the newspapers of Goa have the guts to stage a morcha outside his house and have him removed from the asembly.

Please, I ask all Goans to support our freedom of Press. This is an important issue.

Selma
Gilbert Lawrence
2009-08-05 02:32:05 UTC
Permalink
There are quite a few?well-written history books?REFERRING TO?the Goa Inquisition written during?or just after the Inquisition, describing this period of Goa.? A few years ago, Fred had posted on?Goanet as an e-book, what was?a research account?written by a Bombay-based British historian. He was, I think the editor of the British Gazetteer in India.?Another book is by?JN Fonseca whose book (An Historical and Archaeological sketch of the city of Goa) was written in 1878 and recently posted on Goanet.?Such books have the advantage that the authors had access to the hard official data, some of which I am told is no longer accessible, because it got burnt or shipped to Brazil.

It is not rocket science to separate fact from fiction when looking at an (in-depth / monogram) article on a topic.? Look at the bibliography (referencing the factual statements) on each page or at the end of the chapter.? If one looks at the published?bibliography there is as much as one can know about the Goa Inquisition - its? goals,? workings, numbers indicted, the fanfare of the occasion (with effigy burnings); and the documented and not so obvious rationale and goals of the powers that ruled Goa at the time a.k.a. regional geo-politics.?That is of course if one wants to look at the period in its entirety?- the?big picture. So some who say, "not much hard information is known about Goa's Inquisition" are not being honest or have failed to peruse this topic with focus, relying instead on fictional and embellished novels.

Using anecdotal writings of an author (as a victim or as a tourist)?has a place. But this is like knowing about?prostate cancer by reading the patients' account of his cancer. There is role for this, but it is obliviously limited given the narrow experience of?it's author and scholarship of the writer.? One who reads and quotes?any work,?by merely referring to opinions and conclusions? without quoting the hard facts?to support those opinions cannot be serious.?How many?scientific? papers writing on a disease, quotes the patients' account, unless as a passing comment?

And if not, Why not??
Answer: Because there are better / more quantifiable sources of information to quote.? What one references mainly is someone elses' corroborating data, NOT merely repeating their conclusions and commentary.

Prof Higgs from the University of Toronto appears to have done an extensive 'research of the? research'. I have not read his book but would love to do so, together with Priolkar's. I wish rather that quote opinions of these and other authors, one would post the factual numbers of those indicted, the type of offenses they were charged with, and their punishment; and contrast that with the author's conclusions, either defending the author or pointing to his / her contradictions.?

Personally?the only indictment one can make of the Goa?Inquisition is 'Legal Malpractice'. The individuals to make?and substantiate that charge would be lawyers. They would?compare the workings of the Inquisition with the legal practice of the time.? If non-physicians were to?look back?at medical practice of the sixteenth?to the?nineteenth century,?they would RIGHTLY call?that as Medical Malpractice ... by today's standard.
??
I was curious to see Fred's conclusions of "Prof Higgs' insights" (see below).?Now was not this what the suprulo goenkar was saying all along? And all I got was / and keep getting is?"tho kitem zano?" :-))

Regards, GL


??
---------------?On Tue, 8/4/09, Frederick Noronha

We can split hairs till the cows come home. The question is just whether the depiction of the Inquisition in Goa also?suffers from a?Black Legend and whether those who did such a good job of?spreading its story across centuries and across countries did it with vested?interests or not.
?
After believing the likes of Priolkar and Dellon ("after?all, he is a?Catholic himself") for long, the more one digs-up the more?one gets?convinced that the answer to both the queries above is an?unambiguous yes.??

Even Prof Higgs from Toronto gives us interesting insights to?believe that?the Inquisition was more about power and class, rather than?religion?and communalism (as made out to be in contemporary India).? FN
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-05 05:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Now,? - Is he reporting (on page 10) what he SAW or
what he may have HEARD?
I know the stuff he describes is BRUTAL, and he was
probably repeating it HONESTLY, but did he actually SEE the stuff.
Dear Josebab,

Please read Buchanan's "Christian Researches in India". In it Buchanan describes Satis, female infanticides and literal public self-sacrifices that he witnessed and learned through governmental sources, in gory detail. He also describes a rigorous study of the practice of Sati, which his college commissioned with the assistance of 10 Hindus under the guidance of a professor of Sanskrit.

Regarding the above reference to page 10, assuming that it refers to the preface of "An apology for promoting Christianity in India", the descriptions in question are from a treatise called "An Account of the Writings, Religion and Manners of the Hindoos, including Translations from their Principal Works" written by William Ward, and printed by the government at that time.
why are we so focussed on the "untranslated work of
Antonio Baiao"? Was it perchance written in a language that Priolkar
did not understand?
Now regarding the above insinuation, Priolkar understood Portuguese quite well. He referred to and translated relevant archival material from Antonio Baiao, as well as from many other Portuguese sources.

Cheers,

Santosh
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2009-08-03 00:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely quoted by Anant
Kakba Priolkar in his book on the Goa Inquisition:

http://books.google.com/books?id=nI0NAAAAYAAJ&dq=an+apology+for+promoting+christianity+in+india&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=_EGp9ul0pI&sig=gBtY0le8ZsMUNyoPR1l_nHJHdU4&hl=en&ei=bi12SrDoLdeIkQWSwYSODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 03:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely
This continued smearing of the historian Priolkar by the freelance journalist Noronha becomes more and more curious by each passing day. To people who know something about scholarly research, and the obligation and responsibility of researchers to discuss and cite all prior accounts that deal with the subject at hand in an impartial manner, Priolkar's citation of Buchanan's account should not be a surprise. Indeed, Priolkar's work would have been regarded as shoddy and incomplete if he had deliberately left Buchanan out.

As far as I can tell Priolkar has cited every single prior work related to the Goan inquisition, including translation of records from the Goan archives. What's more, other historians have stated that subsequent publication of a previously unknown account from the 16th or 17th century has largely confirmed Priolkar's observations.

Now why Noronha is hellbent on maligning Priolkar with all kinds of spurious hints, frivolous assertions and smoke and mirror tactics is anybody's guess.

Cheers,

Santosh
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-03 16:11:24 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the link, FN.

I am in no position to state whether the author verified the details
before publishing them.

Even so, pages 9 and 10 were very difficult to read; What went on in
the name of Sati (and still apparently goes on in certain places) was
just as inhumane to life as the Inquisition. The description on pages
9 and 10 are truly awful.

I would have had more respect for Priolkar if he had analysed the way
ALL peoples of the subcontinent treated others i.e. Burnt them alive.
The Inquisitioners burnt those who practiced another religion, The
practioners of Sati only burnt women, albeit hundreds of thousands of
them. According to the Satiests - the women had no reason to live (and
have access to property) when their husband was dead.

So, they burnt the whole lot of them.

Beats me why a "historian" who had access to the printing press, did
not invest time in investigating Sati. Was it because Sati only burnt
women? ...and because ...during his time, women were still ....kind of
worthless?

Historians (even modern day ones) will write history (i.e. his story)
from their own angle. That is why, the history of the (say) Arab
Israeli conflict has such divergence - based on who is writing the
history. It is the bias - known to researchers as something that
causes a 'skew' in the data and eventual result.

Priolkar IMHO was not an unbiased story teller. He could have told the
whole story ....but intentionally or otherwise, did not.

Anybody who believes that Priolkar was unbiased - is invited to
provide the evidence that he was equitable in his publications.

jc

==

2009/8/2 Frederick "FN" Noronha fn at goa-india.org

Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely quoted by Anant
Kakba Priolkar in his book on the Goa Inquisition:

http://books.google.com/books?id=nI0NAAAAYAAJ&dq=an+apology+for+promoting+christianity+in+india&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=_EGp9ul0pI&sig=gBtY0le8ZsMUNyoPR1l_nHJHdU4&hl=en&ei=bi12SrDoLdeIkQWSwYSODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 16:27:02 UTC
Permalink
After reading Claudius Buchanan's book entitled "Christian Researches In Asia", and the first of the letters compiled under "An Apology for Promoting christianity in India", which Frederick Noronha forwarded to Goanet in order to smear Anant Priolkar by osmosis, the following suspicions of mine have been thoroughly confirmed:

1. That Noronha has not read what he has forwarded, copied and pasted, written about and passed judgment on on Goanet regarding Buchanan and Priolkar.

2. He has relied on superficial perceptions, generalities and biases derived from such things as titles of books and political rhetoric, rather than what is inside the pages of those books or anything of substance.

3. Using the aforementioned tactics, Noronha has completely misled Goanetters and readers of his articles on this issue in Herald and Christian publications such as South Asia Religious News (Please see: http://www.sarnews.in/details.php?n=1112).

I am particularly appalled by the latter because of the communal/religious slant given to this false propaganda against Priolkar, which has now been widely circulated on the internet. Please see: http://www.speroforum.com/a/19896/The-Inquisition-in-India-and-its-critics, for another similar deception.

After reading Buchanan's book and letter, the understanding that I have achieved is exactly the opposite of the frivolous impression created by Noronha on Goanet and elsewhere. I want to substantiate this assertion of mine in great detail at a later time. But let me just state now that Buchanan's account of what he witnessed in the Holy Office of the inquisition in Goa is much more restrained, objective and clinical than I had ever imagined. I could not find anything in it that stretched my credibility, and any reason to believe that Buchanan was exercising his prejudice against the Portuguese or the Catholics. By contrast, his descriptions of Hinduism and Hindu rituals are horrifying. A devout Hindu would be outraged by them. Given the latter fact, my admiration and respect for Priolkar's objectivity has grown by leaps and bounds.

Let me close by quoting from the very material (Buchanan's letters) that Noronha has forwarded in his latest fabricated indictment of Priolkar. It will give you a good idea of where Buchanan's sympathies lay, and perhaps, those of Noronha, as well. It will also reveal to you why I think that Noronha does not read what he forwards to Goanet.

QUOTE
There is a disposition prevalent at present to disparage the testimony of the Christian Missionaries. It is supposed by their adversaries that, if they can in any way impeach the credit of a promoter of Christianity, they gain somewhat in the present question. But the cause of Christianity will prevail. It will be found, that the profession of Christianity and a desire to promote it, are generally accompanied by a love of truth. The respectability of the Christian Missionary will increase in this nation, while the character and testimony of the supporters of Brahma will sink and be diminished. It is true, an ardent zeal for the diffusion of the blessings of religion will, in some cases, particularly in the view of impious scenes, excite indignation, and may produce too high a colouring in statement (which is exeeedingly reprehensible,) and narrators may make mistakes in description. But still the substance of the facts (which they think it necessary to
communicate to their country in defence of the honour of Christianity) will remain. In like manner, a writer, animated by a zeal of a contrary character, may be able, by the power of high embellishment, by noticing indifferent circumstances and entirely suppressing others, to represent the idol Juggernaut as being merely one of "the gay and elegant deities of Greece and Rome;" but the substanee of the facts, as stated by others, will remain the same: it will still continue true, that Juggernaut is a fountain of vice and misery to millions of mankind; that the sanguinary and obscene character of the worship is in the highest degree revolting; and that it will be a must happy event when our Christian nation shall dissolve its connection with that polluted place.
UNQUOTE
.....Claudius Buchanan

More later.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely
quoted by Anant
http://books.google.com/books?id=nI0NAAAAYAAJ&dq=an+apology+for+promoting+christianity+in+india&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=_EGp9ul0pI&sig=gBtY0le8ZsMUNyoPR1l_nHJHdU4&hl=en&ei=bi12SrDoLdeIkQWSwYSODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
--
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 20:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Priolkar IMHO was not an unbiased story teller. He could
have told the whole story ....but intentionally or otherwise, did not.
Anybody who believes that Priolkar was unbiased - is
invited to provide the evidence that he was equitable in his
publications.
This is an unfair request. The burden of proving that Priolkar was biased is on his accusers. The defendant (or anyone else on his behalf) never has to prove his innocence.

I guess the complaint about the whole story here means that Priolkar should have written about Sati in a book about the Inquisition for political balance, despite the fact that the two issues have no historical connection. This would be a valid criticism if his book was an opinion editorial on unjust religious practices. But the book was a scholarly review on a specific historical subject - the Goan Inquisition. Of course, he could have written a separate book on the inhuman Hindu practice of Sati, in which he would then have no reason to say anything about the inquisition. One could fault him for not doing the latter, but to claim that his account of the inquisition is tainted and biased just because he did not mention Sati in it is ludicrous.

Moreover, Buchanan has written at length about Sati and other horrible Hindu rituals. I see no more reason to disbelieve these eye-witness accounts than those of his experiences with the inquisitor in Goa. Having quoted from Buchanan's "Christian Researches in India", Priolkar was most definitely aware of these descriptions of Hindu atrocities. Indeed, as I have said earlier, this singular fact does more than anything else to explode the bogus smears against him. It is clear to me that he was able to set aside whatever religious feelings, sympathies and prejudices he might have had to cite an important historical document, which he was duty bound to do as a historian.

As far as I am concerned, the most important questions from a scholarly perspective are the following:

1. Does Priolkar accurately state the facts that he has learned about the inquisition from the sources that he cites?

2. Does he cite all the sources that were available to him?

3. Does he selectively quote from certain sources, and leave out other materials and sources?

3. Does he embellish or exaggerate anything for political, communal or nationalistic purposes?

4. Have the facts that he cites been shown by other unbiased researchers to be inaccurate based on independent research?

5. Are his sources shown to be unreliable by other unbiased researchers based on sound independent research?

In the next couple of weeks I will have answers to these questions because I will have completed a thorough reading and review of the newly published edition of Priolkar's book.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 21:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
You're missing the point about Buchanan's bias, and the
question of how Anant Kakba Priolkar could rely on part of
the bigoted views of a man like this. He seems to be having
a problem with every aspect of belief and practise which
doesn't belong to his tradition.
On the contrary, this is once again a superficial assessment of Buchanan's writings. Whatever his biases might me, when one actually reads his descriptions it becomes clear that he was an excellent narrator of events that happened before his eyes. I have no reason to doubt what he witnessed at Jagannath Puri or Juggernaut, as he refers to it. But more importantly, his descriptions of his experiences in Goa in 1808 are completely sanitized by comparison. There is absolutely no exaggeration of any kind, and his expressed personal opinions and comments are few and far between.

I hope Noronha finds the time to actually read Buchanan's books before commenting on him next time.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2009-08-03 19:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Everytime JoeGoaUK posts the famous C.Alvaris song, I can't help but watch that video which is an absolute tribute our Goan culture.

But who is that stunning girl in the boat, Rita Lobo? Was she a singer of the times? Why is not as well known as Lorna for instance?

Ofcourse, Lorna's singing is in a class of her own. Who can beat those sultry notes accompanying Chris Perry's Jazz tunes? I can feel my hair stand on edge just thinking about them.

But that Rita Lobo must have been a real head-turner in her days for I have rarely seen a woman as beautiful as her.

best,
selma
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-04 03:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
That is where I believe that Priolkar failed. It is not
what he wrote.... it is what he failed to write.
Dear Josebab,

Thanks for your clarifications. Based on your yardstick, I sense that you would agree with me that Claudius Buchanan was an unbiased reporter of his experiences in the countries of India, as he put it, because he was brutally honest about what he saw, whether it was the practice of Sati, the vultures tearing into the flesh of pilgrims who sacrificed themselves under wheels of the towering ruth of the Moloch Jagannath or the mostly friendly conversations with the Vice Inquisitor in the Holy Office in Goa. Unfortunately, Frederick Noronha does not. He believes by embellishment, exaggeration and extrapolation of selected quotes from extraneous authors that Buchanan was a bigot, and therefore cannot be trusted.

Cheers,

Santosh
JoeGoaUk
2009-08-04 09:24:50 UTC
Permalink
[Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?

Thank you Selma ,

I too like to see her now.
If she was then say 20, she must be now around 65.

2 years ago, I was told that she (Rita Lobo) often shuttle between Dubai and Andheri in Bombay .

The ?Amchem Noxib? heroine Rita Lobo is Manglorean.
Rita is seen with C Alvares in the Canoe/boat song ?Mollbavelo Dhou?
In this clip
http://youtu.be/kzH-BUVRzig

The playback singer is Molly
(One may get all this and more info in the forthcoming FR?s Song book)

However, my source was Isidore Dantas who also
happens to be a first cousin of Frank Fernand.

One can read more on FF etc in Goa Today issue of May 2007

Some snap-shots from the clip ? Rita Lobo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512428840/sizes/s/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512430420/sizes/s/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512466345/sizes/s/

C Alvares
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512470121/sizes/s/


Besides Molly, ther singers in the film 'Amchem Noxib' were..
Anthony Mendes, Antonette, Juliet, Janet, Martha and Star of Arossim.

Lyrics by: M. Boyer, C. Alvares, Remmie Colaco and Alfred Rose.

These 3 songs sung by Molly
1. SONTOSH BHOGTA,
http://youtu.be/N2RIAS_zFZg

2. I LOST MY HEART TO YOU &
http://youtu.be/DwK6UsQbNLE

3. MOLLBAVELO DHOV
http://youtu.be/kzH-BUVRzig

Where as
MANDO GOENCHO KHORO sung by Molly, Julliet & Janette)
http://youtu.be/L1QKuGQ7DTg (watch part2)

YO MOGA TUM MHOZO sung by Star of Arossim, Martha, Molly and Chorus
http://youtu.be/L1QKuGQ7DTg

BHENKDAITA PAI by Anthony Mendes & Antonette
http://youtu.be/733NfHdp-qk

MOGACHEM TARUM by Anthony Mendes
http://youtu.be/bXDcChFItVk

Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk

for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/

For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa

In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc
Mario Goveia
2009-08-04 14:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>

But who is that stunning girl in the boat, Rita Lobo? Was she a singer of the times? Why is not as well known as Lorna for instance?

Ofcourse, Lorna's singing is in a class of her own. Who can beat those sultry notes accompanying Chris Perry's Jazz tunes? I can feel my hair stand on edge just thinking about them.

Mario observes:

Selma,

You forgot to add, "the bleep ..." in the subject line:-))

I hope the title of your upcoming book is "Who the bleep cares...?":-))

Anyway, while Lorna is all you say she is, powerful and sultry, my favorite Goan voice by far is the super-smooth and silky Luzia Noronha, who should be making more solo albums in my never-humble opinion rather than the one called "A Touch of Class". Check it out at Sinaris and hear for yourselves.
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-04 17:12:25 UTC
Permalink
In the latest Noronha post appended below he is once again trying to pull wool over the eyes of Goanetters. Despite his claims, Noronha has dug up nothing to refute the observations of Priolkar, Dellon or Buchanan. The application of the black legend ideology to the Goan situation is a figment of Noronha's imagination. He has provided not a single piece of factual evidence to back it up. No genuine historian or scholar has proposed the application of this theory to the inquisition in Goa based on his or her research.

What takes the cake for me, however, is the implication below that no one has translated Antonio Baiao's work on the inquisition to find out what it says. This tells me that Noronha has no idea about what Priolkar has written in his book because the truth is that Priolkar has relied heavily on the archival publications of Baiao for his work.

The bogus claims of "digging up" and reliance on "hints" and ideology, rather than actually reading the books in question continues to fascinate me.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by unknown
We can split hairs till the cows come home. The question is
just
whether the depiction of the Inquisition in Goa also
suffers from a
Black Legend and whether those who did such a good job of
spreading
its story across centuries and across countries did it with
vested
interests or not.
After believing the likes of Priolkar and Dellon ("after
all, he is a
Catholic himself") for long, the more one digs-up the more
one gets
convinced that the answer to both the queries above is an
unambiguous
yes.
To understand "why" will need more pieces of the jig-saw to
fall into
place, though there are a lot of hints already available.
Does anyone
have access to the so-far untranslated work of Antonio
Baiao? Even
Prof Higgs from Toronto gives us interesting insights to
believe that
the Inquisition was more about power and class, rather than
religion
and communalism (as made out to be in contemporary India).
FN
Carvalho
2009-08-04 17:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Well if this doesn't prove the world is round and small nothing else does. I now find out that I was only 6 degrees separated from Rita lobo all the time, because I knew her son all along ;-) So the admiration society was rather mutual :-)

Best,
selma
Post by JoeGoaUk
[Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?
?
Thank you Selma ,
?
I too like to see her now.
If she was then say 20,? she must be now around 65.
?
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-04 20:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Antonio Baiao's publication is in Portuguese. Priolkar's book, which makes extensive use of the relevant material from it, is in English. Now please note the claim below that Baiao has not been translated, and the earlier smearing of Priolkar to create the impression that he was biased because he was relying essentially on two biased sources - Dellon and Buchanan. As far as the material from Higgs below is concerned, the historian C. R. Boxer directly contradicts his opinions. Here is what Boxer says:

QUOTE
...the author (Priolkar) has made excellent use of all the relevant Portuguese material which is available in print. He has rightly relied heavily on the documents from the Goa archives published by J. H. da Cunha Rivara a century ago, and on the more recent archival publications by A. Baiao and Panduronga Pissurlencar.....

...Dr. Priolkar has performed a valuable service in combing these works for the facts and presenting them in reliable and readable form. This work can therefore be unreservedly recommended to those who have neither the time nor the ability to read the published Portuguese sources....
UNQUOTE
....C. R. Boxer

Please also note that the beating around the bush continues on Noronha's part. He is still not able to give us an example of anything he has read which directly contradicts the facts reported by Priolkar. What's more, he is not able to provide even simple quotes from Priolkar's, Dellon's or Buchanan's books that can be regarded as distortions, exaggerations or fabrications to support his speculation/fantasy that we are dealing with a black legend here.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by unknown
Quite a mix-up indeed! Priolkar citing Baiao doesn't change
the fact that Baiao hasn't been translated!
Baiao's book is hard to come by, particularly the second
volume. The
work has not been republished and WAS NEVER TRANSLATED INTO
ENGLISH
[emphasis added]. The 1907 brief pamphlet by Jordao
apolinario de
Freitas, and the mid nineteenth-century Narracao da
Inquisicao de Goa
are both rare.
Much better known is Anant Kakbar (sic) Priolkar's 1961
study,
published in the year of the liberation of Goa from
Portugal by
invading Indian forces, published in Bombay, and something
of a
bibliographical rarity outside of the subcontinent... --
David Higgs,
Continuity and
Change (Narendra K Wagle and George Coehlo, eds, Toronto
1995)
"Priolkar consulted no original documentation from the
Portuguese Holy
Office which still survives in other deposits and this
renders his a
deficient, if still useful, account of the Inquisition in
late
eighteenth-century Goa...."
Francis Rodrigues
2009-08-04 19:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Re: Rita Lobo

Thanks Joe.

Yes, you're right - a mention occurs in my "Greatest Konkani Hits" SongBook, of both Rita Lobo and Molly. So you'll prob. have to get a copy of the Book to learn more about both!:-)

A word -

A massive amount of research went into the circumstances and backgrounds of all these "Greatest Konkani Song Hits". We uncovered spell-binding material, but unfortunately much of it either too controversial or sensitive to use. Such are the lives of artistes!

What I can tell you is that both Rita and Molly were iconic band singers of the time (the sixties), Rita particularly sweet-voiced at the swish "Blue Nile" Cross Maidan brasserie (made famous in later years by Chris and Lorna!).

Molly, on the other hand was sultrier and more powerful, part of Chris' quintet at the Astoria's "Venice" restaurant, later moving with his outfit to Calcutta. Her late husband the pianist Mervyn and she, teamed up to perform at Bombay's "Little Hut" on her return from Calcutta.

In an interview I did with some of the musicians who backed up Rita at the time, mention was made of her most adorable little boy who accompanied her to most performances.

More than that, would be revealing!

Best,
Francis.
..............
On Tue, 4 Aug 2009, JoeGoaUk wrote:
Subject: [Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?
To: goanet at goanet.org

[Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?

Thank you Selma ,

I too like to see her now.
If she was then say 20, she must be now around 65.

2 years ago, I was told that she (Rita Lobo) often shuttle between Dubai and Andheri in Bombay .

The Amchem Noxib heroine Rita Lobo is Manglorean.
Rita is seen with C Alvares in the Canoe/boat song Mollbavelo Dhou
In this clip
http://youtu.be/kzH-BUVRzig

The playback singer is Molly
(One may get all this and more info in the forthcoming FR's Song book)

_________________________________________________________________
Stay in the loop and chat with friends, right from your inbox!
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9671354
Carvalho
2009-08-04 21:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Shame on Goa's Congress and shame on you Mr Speaker

How dare you try to muzzle a citizen of Goa with threats of imprisonment? Who do you think you are? You are elected by the citizens of Goa, for the citizens of Goa. You are not elected to threaten our civil liberties and assume you are above the law.

What a sad day for Goa's democracy that you should even think of uttering what you did in the assembly.

I for one am for starting a petition to the Governor of Goa, to have the speaker removed.

And I sincerely hope the newspapers of Goa have the guts to stage a morcha outside his house and have him removed from the asembly.

Please, I ask all Goans to support our freedom of Press. This is an important issue.

Selma
Gilbert Lawrence
2009-08-05 02:32:05 UTC
Permalink
There are quite a few?well-written history books?REFERRING TO?the Goa Inquisition written during?or just after the Inquisition, describing this period of Goa.? A few years ago, Fred had posted on?Goanet as an e-book, what was?a research account?written by a Bombay-based British historian. He was, I think the editor of the British Gazetteer in India.?Another book is by?JN Fonseca whose book (An Historical and Archaeological sketch of the city of Goa) was written in 1878 and recently posted on Goanet.?Such books have the advantage that the authors had access to the hard official data, some of which I am told is no longer accessible, because it got burnt or shipped to Brazil.

It is not rocket science to separate fact from fiction when looking at an (in-depth / monogram) article on a topic.? Look at the bibliography (referencing the factual statements) on each page or at the end of the chapter.? If one looks at the published?bibliography there is as much as one can know about the Goa Inquisition - its? goals,? workings, numbers indicted, the fanfare of the occasion (with effigy burnings); and the documented and not so obvious rationale and goals of the powers that ruled Goa at the time a.k.a. regional geo-politics.?That is of course if one wants to look at the period in its entirety?- the?big picture. So some who say, "not much hard information is known about Goa's Inquisition" are not being honest or have failed to peruse this topic with focus, relying instead on fictional and embellished novels.

Using anecdotal writings of an author (as a victim or as a tourist)?has a place. But this is like knowing about?prostate cancer by reading the patients' account of his cancer. There is role for this, but it is obliviously limited given the narrow experience of?it's author and scholarship of the writer.? One who reads and quotes?any work,?by merely referring to opinions and conclusions? without quoting the hard facts?to support those opinions cannot be serious.?How many?scientific? papers writing on a disease, quotes the patients' account, unless as a passing comment?

And if not, Why not??
Answer: Because there are better / more quantifiable sources of information to quote.? What one references mainly is someone elses' corroborating data, NOT merely repeating their conclusions and commentary.

Prof Higgs from the University of Toronto appears to have done an extensive 'research of the? research'. I have not read his book but would love to do so, together with Priolkar's. I wish rather that quote opinions of these and other authors, one would post the factual numbers of those indicted, the type of offenses they were charged with, and their punishment; and contrast that with the author's conclusions, either defending the author or pointing to his / her contradictions.?

Personally?the only indictment one can make of the Goa?Inquisition is 'Legal Malpractice'. The individuals to make?and substantiate that charge would be lawyers. They would?compare the workings of the Inquisition with the legal practice of the time.? If non-physicians were to?look back?at medical practice of the sixteenth?to the?nineteenth century,?they would RIGHTLY call?that as Medical Malpractice ... by today's standard.
??
I was curious to see Fred's conclusions of "Prof Higgs' insights" (see below).?Now was not this what the suprulo goenkar was saying all along? And all I got was / and keep getting is?"tho kitem zano?" :-))

Regards, GL


??
---------------?On Tue, 8/4/09, Frederick Noronha

We can split hairs till the cows come home. The question is just whether the depiction of the Inquisition in Goa also?suffers from a?Black Legend and whether those who did such a good job of?spreading its story across centuries and across countries did it with vested?interests or not.
?
After believing the likes of Priolkar and Dellon ("after?all, he is a?Catholic himself") for long, the more one digs-up the more?one gets?convinced that the answer to both the queries above is an?unambiguous yes.??

Even Prof Higgs from Toronto gives us interesting insights to?believe that?the Inquisition was more about power and class, rather than?religion?and communalism (as made out to be in contemporary India).? FN
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-05 05:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Now,? - Is he reporting (on page 10) what he SAW or
what he may have HEARD?
I know the stuff he describes is BRUTAL, and he was
probably repeating it HONESTLY, but did he actually SEE the stuff.
Dear Josebab,

Please read Buchanan's "Christian Researches in India". In it Buchanan describes Satis, female infanticides and literal public self-sacrifices that he witnessed and learned through governmental sources, in gory detail. He also describes a rigorous study of the practice of Sati, which his college commissioned with the assistance of 10 Hindus under the guidance of a professor of Sanskrit.

Regarding the above reference to page 10, assuming that it refers to the preface of "An apology for promoting Christianity in India", the descriptions in question are from a treatise called "An Account of the Writings, Religion and Manners of the Hindoos, including Translations from their Principal Works" written by William Ward, and printed by the government at that time.
why are we so focussed on the "untranslated work of
Antonio Baiao"? Was it perchance written in a language that Priolkar
did not understand?
Now regarding the above insinuation, Priolkar understood Portuguese quite well. He referred to and translated relevant archival material from Antonio Baiao, as well as from many other Portuguese sources.

Cheers,

Santosh
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2009-08-03 00:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely quoted by Anant
Kakba Priolkar in his book on the Goa Inquisition:

http://books.google.com/books?id=nI0NAAAAYAAJ&dq=an+apology+for+promoting+christianity+in+india&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=_EGp9ul0pI&sig=gBtY0le8ZsMUNyoPR1l_nHJHdU4&hl=en&ei=bi12SrDoLdeIkQWSwYSODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
--
FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490
Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/
Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 03:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely
This continued smearing of the historian Priolkar by the freelance journalist Noronha becomes more and more curious by each passing day. To people who know something about scholarly research, and the obligation and responsibility of researchers to discuss and cite all prior accounts that deal with the subject at hand in an impartial manner, Priolkar's citation of Buchanan's account should not be a surprise. Indeed, Priolkar's work would have been regarded as shoddy and incomplete if he had deliberately left Buchanan out.

As far as I can tell Priolkar has cited every single prior work related to the Goan inquisition, including translation of records from the Goan archives. What's more, other historians have stated that subsequent publication of a previously unknown account from the 16th or 17th century has largely confirmed Priolkar's observations.

Now why Noronha is hellbent on maligning Priolkar with all kinds of spurious hints, frivolous assertions and smoke and mirror tactics is anybody's guess.

Cheers,

Santosh
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2009-08-03 16:11:24 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the link, FN.

I am in no position to state whether the author verified the details
before publishing them.

Even so, pages 9 and 10 were very difficult to read; What went on in
the name of Sati (and still apparently goes on in certain places) was
just as inhumane to life as the Inquisition. The description on pages
9 and 10 are truly awful.

I would have had more respect for Priolkar if he had analysed the way
ALL peoples of the subcontinent treated others i.e. Burnt them alive.
The Inquisitioners burnt those who practiced another religion, The
practioners of Sati only burnt women, albeit hundreds of thousands of
them. According to the Satiests - the women had no reason to live (and
have access to property) when their husband was dead.

So, they burnt the whole lot of them.

Beats me why a "historian" who had access to the printing press, did
not invest time in investigating Sati. Was it because Sati only burnt
women? ...and because ...during his time, women were still ....kind of
worthless?

Historians (even modern day ones) will write history (i.e. his story)
from their own angle. That is why, the history of the (say) Arab
Israeli conflict has such divergence - based on who is writing the
history. It is the bias - known to researchers as something that
causes a 'skew' in the data and eventual result.

Priolkar IMHO was not an unbiased story teller. He could have told the
whole story ....but intentionally or otherwise, did not.

Anybody who believes that Priolkar was unbiased - is invited to
provide the evidence that he was equitable in his publications.

jc

==

2009/8/2 Frederick "FN" Noronha fn at goa-india.org

Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely quoted by Anant
Kakba Priolkar in his book on the Goa Inquisition:

http://books.google.com/books?id=nI0NAAAAYAAJ&dq=an+apology+for+promoting+christianity+in+india&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=_EGp9ul0pI&sig=gBtY0le8ZsMUNyoPR1l_nHJHdU4&hl=en&ei=bi12SrDoLdeIkQWSwYSODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 16:27:02 UTC
Permalink
After reading Claudius Buchanan's book entitled "Christian Researches In Asia", and the first of the letters compiled under "An Apology for Promoting christianity in India", which Frederick Noronha forwarded to Goanet in order to smear Anant Priolkar by osmosis, the following suspicions of mine have been thoroughly confirmed:

1. That Noronha has not read what he has forwarded, copied and pasted, written about and passed judgment on on Goanet regarding Buchanan and Priolkar.

2. He has relied on superficial perceptions, generalities and biases derived from such things as titles of books and political rhetoric, rather than what is inside the pages of those books or anything of substance.

3. Using the aforementioned tactics, Noronha has completely misled Goanetters and readers of his articles on this issue in Herald and Christian publications such as South Asia Religious News (Please see: http://www.sarnews.in/details.php?n=1112).

I am particularly appalled by the latter because of the communal/religious slant given to this false propaganda against Priolkar, which has now been widely circulated on the internet. Please see: http://www.speroforum.com/a/19896/The-Inquisition-in-India-and-its-critics, for another similar deception.

After reading Buchanan's book and letter, the understanding that I have achieved is exactly the opposite of the frivolous impression created by Noronha on Goanet and elsewhere. I want to substantiate this assertion of mine in great detail at a later time. But let me just state now that Buchanan's account of what he witnessed in the Holy Office of the inquisition in Goa is much more restrained, objective and clinical than I had ever imagined. I could not find anything in it that stretched my credibility, and any reason to believe that Buchanan was exercising his prejudice against the Portuguese or the Catholics. By contrast, his descriptions of Hinduism and Hindu rituals are horrifying. A devout Hindu would be outraged by them. Given the latter fact, my admiration and respect for Priolkar's objectivity has grown by leaps and bounds.

Let me close by quoting from the very material (Buchanan's letters) that Noronha has forwarded in his latest fabricated indictment of Priolkar. It will give you a good idea of where Buchanan's sympathies lay, and perhaps, those of Noronha, as well. It will also reveal to you why I think that Noronha does not read what he forwards to Goanet.

QUOTE
There is a disposition prevalent at present to disparage the testimony of the Christian Missionaries. It is supposed by their adversaries that, if they can in any way impeach the credit of a promoter of Christianity, they gain somewhat in the present question. But the cause of Christianity will prevail. It will be found, that the profession of Christianity and a desire to promote it, are generally accompanied by a love of truth. The respectability of the Christian Missionary will increase in this nation, while the character and testimony of the supporters of Brahma will sink and be diminished. It is true, an ardent zeal for the diffusion of the blessings of religion will, in some cases, particularly in the view of impious scenes, excite indignation, and may produce too high a colouring in statement (which is exeeedingly reprehensible,) and narrators may make mistakes in description. But still the substance of the facts (which they think it necessary to
communicate to their country in defence of the honour of Christianity) will remain. In like manner, a writer, animated by a zeal of a contrary character, may be able, by the power of high embellishment, by noticing indifferent circumstances and entirely suppressing others, to represent the idol Juggernaut as being merely one of "the gay and elegant deities of Greece and Rome;" but the substanee of the facts, as stated by others, will remain the same: it will still continue true, that Juggernaut is a fountain of vice and misery to millions of mankind; that the sanguinary and obscene character of the worship is in the highest degree revolting; and that it will be a must happy event when our Christian nation shall dissolve its connection with that polluted place.
UNQUOTE
.....Claudius Buchanan

More later.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Hard to believe that this is the same person so widely
quoted by Anant
http://books.google.com/books?id=nI0NAAAAYAAJ&dq=an+apology+for+promoting+christianity+in+india&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=_EGp9ul0pI&sig=gBtY0le8ZsMUNyoPR1l_nHJHdU4&hl=en&ei=bi12SrDoLdeIkQWSwYSODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
--
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 20:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
Priolkar IMHO was not an unbiased story teller. He could
have told the whole story ....but intentionally or otherwise, did not.
Anybody who believes that Priolkar was unbiased - is
invited to provide the evidence that he was equitable in his
publications.
This is an unfair request. The burden of proving that Priolkar was biased is on his accusers. The defendant (or anyone else on his behalf) never has to prove his innocence.

I guess the complaint about the whole story here means that Priolkar should have written about Sati in a book about the Inquisition for political balance, despite the fact that the two issues have no historical connection. This would be a valid criticism if his book was an opinion editorial on unjust religious practices. But the book was a scholarly review on a specific historical subject - the Goan Inquisition. Of course, he could have written a separate book on the inhuman Hindu practice of Sati, in which he would then have no reason to say anything about the inquisition. One could fault him for not doing the latter, but to claim that his account of the inquisition is tainted and biased just because he did not mention Sati in it is ludicrous.

Moreover, Buchanan has written at length about Sati and other horrible Hindu rituals. I see no more reason to disbelieve these eye-witness accounts than those of his experiences with the inquisitor in Goa. Having quoted from Buchanan's "Christian Researches in India", Priolkar was most definitely aware of these descriptions of Hindu atrocities. Indeed, as I have said earlier, this singular fact does more than anything else to explode the bogus smears against him. It is clear to me that he was able to set aside whatever religious feelings, sympathies and prejudices he might have had to cite an important historical document, which he was duty bound to do as a historian.

As far as I am concerned, the most important questions from a scholarly perspective are the following:

1. Does Priolkar accurately state the facts that he has learned about the inquisition from the sources that he cites?

2. Does he cite all the sources that were available to him?

3. Does he selectively quote from certain sources, and leave out other materials and sources?

3. Does he embellish or exaggerate anything for political, communal or nationalistic purposes?

4. Have the facts that he cites been shown by other unbiased researchers to be inaccurate based on independent research?

5. Are his sources shown to be unreliable by other unbiased researchers based on sound independent research?

In the next couple of weeks I will have answers to these questions because I will have completed a thorough reading and review of the newly published edition of Priolkar's book.

Cheers,

Santosh
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-03 21:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
You're missing the point about Buchanan's bias, and the
question of how Anant Kakba Priolkar could rely on part of
the bigoted views of a man like this. He seems to be having
a problem with every aspect of belief and practise which
doesn't belong to his tradition.
On the contrary, this is once again a superficial assessment of Buchanan's writings. Whatever his biases might me, when one actually reads his descriptions it becomes clear that he was an excellent narrator of events that happened before his eyes. I have no reason to doubt what he witnessed at Jagannath Puri or Juggernaut, as he refers to it. But more importantly, his descriptions of his experiences in Goa in 1808 are completely sanitized by comparison. There is absolutely no exaggeration of any kind, and his expressed personal opinions and comments are few and far between.

I hope Noronha finds the time to actually read Buchanan's books before commenting on him next time.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2009-08-03 19:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Everytime JoeGoaUK posts the famous C.Alvaris song, I can't help but watch that video which is an absolute tribute our Goan culture.

But who is that stunning girl in the boat, Rita Lobo? Was she a singer of the times? Why is not as well known as Lorna for instance?

Ofcourse, Lorna's singing is in a class of her own. Who can beat those sultry notes accompanying Chris Perry's Jazz tunes? I can feel my hair stand on edge just thinking about them.

But that Rita Lobo must have been a real head-turner in her days for I have rarely seen a woman as beautiful as her.

best,
selma
Santosh Helekar
2009-08-04 03:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
That is where I believe that Priolkar failed. It is not
what he wrote.... it is what he failed to write.
Dear Josebab,

Thanks for your clarifications. Based on your yardstick, I sense that you would agree with me that Claudius Buchanan was an unbiased reporter of his experiences in the countries of India, as he put it, because he was brutally honest about what he saw, whether it was the practice of Sati, the vultures tearing into the flesh of pilgrims who sacrificed themselves under wheels of the towering ruth of the Moloch Jagannath or the mostly friendly conversations with the Vice Inquisitor in the Holy Office in Goa. Unfortunately, Frederick Noronha does not. He believes by embellishment, exaggeration and extrapolation of selected quotes from extraneous authors that Buchanan was a bigot, and therefore cannot be trusted.

Cheers,

Santosh
JoeGoaUk
2009-08-04 09:24:50 UTC
Permalink
[Goanet] Who is Rita Lobo?

Thank you Selma ,

I too like to see her now.
If she was then say 20, she must be now around 65.

2 years ago, I was told that she (Rita Lobo) often shuttle between Dubai and Andheri in Bombay .

The ?Amchem Noxib? heroine Rita Lobo is Manglorean.
Rita is seen with C Alvares in the Canoe/boat song ?Mollbavelo Dhou?
In this clip
http://youtu.be/kzH-BUVRzig

The playback singer is Molly
(One may get all this and more info in the forthcoming FR?s Song book)

However, my source was Isidore Dantas who also
happens to be a first cousin of Frank Fernand.

One can read more on FF etc in Goa Today issue of May 2007

Some snap-shots from the clip ? Rita Lobo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512428840/sizes/s/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512430420/sizes/s/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512466345/sizes/s/

C Alvares
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk6/512470121/sizes/s/


Besides Molly, ther singers in the film 'Amchem Noxib' were..
Anthony Mendes, Antonette, Juliet, Janet, Martha and Star of Arossim.

Lyrics by: M. Boyer, C. Alvares, Remmie Colaco and Alfred Rose.

These 3 songs sung by Molly
1. SONTOSH BHOGTA,
http://youtu.be/N2RIAS_zFZg

2. I LOST MY HEART TO YOU &
http://youtu.be/DwK6UsQbNLE

3. MOLLBAVELO DHOV
http://youtu.be/kzH-BUVRzig

Where as
MANDO GOENCHO KHORO sung by Molly, Julliet & Janette)
http://youtu.be/L1QKuGQ7DTg (watch part2)

YO MOGA TUM MHOZO sung by Star of Arossim, Martha, Molly and Chorus
http://youtu.be/L1QKuGQ7DTg

BHENKDAITA PAI by Anthony Mendes & Antonette
http://youtu.be/733NfHdp-qk

MOGACHEM TARUM by Anthony Mendes
http://youtu.be/bXDcChFItVk

Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk

for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/

For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa

In Goa, Dial? 1 0 8
For Hospital, Police, Fire etc
Mario Goveia
2009-08-04 14:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>

But who is that stunning girl in the boat, Rita Lobo? Was she a singer of the times? Why is not as well known as Lorna for instance?

Ofcourse, Lorna's singing is in a class of her own. Who can beat those sultry notes accompanying Chris Perry's Jazz tunes? I can feel my hair stand on edge just thinking about them.

Mario observes:

Selma,

You forgot to add, "the bleep ..." in the subject line:-))

I hope the title of your upcoming book is "Who the bleep cares...?":-))

Anyway, while Lorna is all you say she is, powerful and sultry, my favorite Goan voice by far is the super-smooth and silky Luzia Noronha, who should be making more solo albums in my never-humble opinion rather than the one called "A Touch of Class". Check it out at Sinaris and hear for yourselves.
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