Discussion:
Goanet as learning instrument
(too old to reply)
Radhakrishnan Nair
2006-07-13 04:02:25 UTC
Permalink
(Valmiki Faleiro: I am also - just btw, again - an admirer of the Mossad's
achievements ... particularly the episodes about the most
advanced Soviet-supplied radar installed by Egypt in the Sinai
(which put the entire of Israel under enemy scanner) prior to
the Yom Kippur war, and the raid on PLO HQ in a Beirut
highrise.)

Don't you remember the Entebe operation, Val? It involved an Israeli passenger
plane hijacked by Muslim extremists during Idi Amin's regime.
-- RKN
Valmiki Faleiro
2006-07-13 08:25:17 UTC
Permalink
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Url: /pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/attachments/20060713/f25d2517/attachment.ksh
Valmiki Faleiro
2006-07-13 16:26:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi RKN,

Who can forget Entebbe? The way they trained and rehearsed
in a matter of three days, skimmed across Lake Victoria and
staged that daring operation -- complete with a lookalike of
Idi Amin in his usual car, even if a "friendly" neighbouring
African nation refused them refuelling on the return? A book
and a film have recorded that story. (The hijacked plane,
btw, was not an El Al liner, it was an Air France liner on a
scheduled flight.) Point is, it was intelligence again that
came to Israel's rescue. They had the complete blueprints of
the Entebbe terminal building, made cardboard lifesize models
for their rehearsals and even had plans for various contigencies
(like dispersal of passengers in different areas inside the
terminal) in place, prior to embarking on that mission.
Intelligence plays the major role. A brains versus brawn point.

But the Sinai radar and PLO HQ storming, which occured much
before, had their own brilliance. (Both were staged,
incidentally, by the Mossad.) I'll briefly explain.

I'll condense only one. The Soviets supplied their latest,
most sophisticated radar systems to the Egyptians. It was
installed on the Sinai Peninsula. The radar brought all of
Israel under enemy eye -- even a helicopter could not take
off even from the northernmost tip of Israel without the
enemy's knowledge. The Israelis were alarmed. The Israeli PM
called a meeting of the defence chiefs and the Mossad. Each
one presented his plan on to deal with the situation. The army
guy (I think the Yom Kippur hero, Gen. Moshe Dayan, was still
the Dy Chief of Army staff then) unfolded his plan to destroy
the radar. The chief of the Air Force told how he would
carpet bomb the entire camp, including the Soviet radar.

Then came the turn of the Mossad chief. He begged of the PM to
allot the assignment to him. "We will NOT destroy that radar,"
he pleaded, "we will bring it back to Israel."

They did just that. Together with requisite help from
the other services, a small helicopter-borne commando unit took
the relaxing Egyptian guards by complete surprise, dismantled
the radar system and brought it back home ... piece by piece!

(It was later re-assembled and studied in detail by Israeli and
western techies, in Israel, to Russia's chagrin. The Soviets
changed their arms policy: never again did a first-generation
piece of defence equipment leave their shores.)

Regards, Valmiki
P.S.: If you read my piece that appeared in today's
(Goa) Herald, also posted here earlier, on the Mumbai
serial blasts, you know better how I regard the Mossad ;-)


On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 Radhakrishnan Nair wrote :
--
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
(Valmiki Faleiro: I am also - just btw, again - an admirer of the
Mossad's >achievements ... particularly the episodes about the
most >advanced Soviet-supplied radar installed by Egypt in the Sinai
(which put the entire of Israel under enemy scanner) prior to
the Yom Kippur war, and the raid on PLO HQ in a Beirut
highrise.)
Don't you remember the Entebe operation, Val? It involved an
Israeli passenger
plane hijacked by Muslim extremists during Idi Amin's regime.
-- RKN
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at lists.goanet.org
cornel
2006-07-14 08:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Who can forget Entebbe?
Israel's justified daring attack against a tin-pot dictator and buffoon like
Idi Amin is not surprising in many respects. Here was an advanced military
nation, with strong American support, taking on a fifth rate military
outpost like Amin's at the time. Moreover, Entebbe airport, which I knew
well, was not exactly the Pentagon--it was virtually an open field with a
few scattered cheaply built structures on it, at the time of the Raid, even
thought the subsequent film had many embellishments to make it a Hollywood
block buster.

Notwithstanding the above, Valmiki is right that Israel had a major
'intelligence' coup on this issue. However, in contrast, its unjustified
collusion in 1956, with Britain and France, to the acute chagrin of the USA,
brought its "quick victory" instincts in Suez to an immediate and abrupt
end.

Israel has had many successes on the war-front especially with Big Brother,
the USA invariably providing it uncritical support on its many
disproportionate military attacks as now. It has an absolute right to exist,
ideally in a two-state solution, but it only needs to fail once to see its
virtual destruction by its many ferocious enemies who are unlikely to forget
its consistent efforts and determination to occupy Arab lands
illegitimately. Its survival, according to many Israelis themselves, in and
outside the country, is based on massive force for now, and the suppression
of many Middle Eastern peoples. Historical evidence suggests that, with all
their 'intelligence' they will never be able to destroy the idea and
reality that much of Palestine is occupied illegally and colonised under the
pretence of security.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Valmiki Faleiro" <valmikif at gmail.com>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet as learning instrument
Post by Valmiki Faleiro
Hi RKN,
Who can forget Entebbe? The way they trained and rehearsed in a matter of
three days, skimmed across Lake Victoria and staged that daring
operation -- complete with a lookalike of
Idi Amin in his usual car, even if a "friendly" neighbouring African
nation refused them refuelling on the return? A book
and a film have recorded that story. (The hijacked plane, btw, was not an
El Al liner, it was an Air France liner on a scheduled flight.) Point is,
it was intelligence again that came to Israel's rescue. They had the
complete blueprints of the Entebbe terminal building, made cardboard
lifesize models for their rehearsals and even had plans for various
contigencies (like dispersal of passengers in different areas inside the
terminal) in place, prior to embarking on that mission. Intelligence plays
the major role. A brains versus brawn point.
But the Sinai radar and PLO HQ storming, which occured much before, had
their own brilliance. (Both were staged, incidentally, by the Mossad.)
I'll briefly explain.
I'll condense only one. The Soviets supplied their latest, most
sophisticated radar systems to the Egyptians. It was installed on the
Sinai Peninsula. The radar brought all of Israel under enemy eye -- even
a helicopter could not take off even from the northernmost tip of Israel
without the enemy's knowledge. The Israelis were alarmed. The Israeli PM
called a meeting of the defence chiefs and the Mossad. Each one presented
his plan on to deal with the situation. The army
guy (I think the Yom Kippur hero, Gen. Moshe Dayan, was still the Dy Chief
of Army staff then) unfolded his plan to destroy the radar. The chief of
the Air Force told how he would carpet bomb the entire camp, including the
Soviet radar.
Then came the turn of the Mossad chief. He begged of the PM to allot the
assignment to him. "We will NOT destroy that radar," he pleaded, "we will
bring it back to Israel."
They did just that. Together with requisite help from the other services,
a small helicopter-borne commando unit took the relaxing Egyptian guards
by complete surprise, dismantled the radar system and brought it back home
... piece by piece!
(It was later re-assembled and studied in detail by Israeli and western
techies, in Israel, to Russia's chagrin. The Soviets changed their arms
policy: never again did a first-generation piece of defence equipment
leave their shores.)
Regards, Valmiki
P.S.: If you read my piece that appeared in today's (Goa) Herald, also
posted here earlier, on the Mumbai serial blasts, you know better how I
regard the Mossad ;-)
--
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
(Valmiki Faleiro: I am also - just btw, again - an admirer of the
Mossad's >achievements ... particularly the episodes about the
most >advanced Soviet-supplied radar installed by Egypt in the Sinai
(which put the entire of Israel under enemy scanner) prior to the Yom
Kippur war, and the raid on PLO HQ in a Beirut highrise.)
Don't you remember the Entebe operation, Val? It involved an Israeli
passenger plane hijacked by Muslim extremists during Idi Amin's regime.
-- RKN
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-14 14:05:10 UTC
Permalink
Dear Cornel,
I have much respect and sympathy for the Jews, for
their enormous contribution to society and their
perseverance through all they've had to endure in
history. However when they had an opportunity to make
right the wrongs of history, they've proven that they
are equally if not more brutal. Palestinian refugee
camps are nothing more than concentration camps.

That Israel occupies this territory out of European
guilt is without doubt. That Britain played the Arabs
dirty is without doubt. I wonder how many people know
that before Europe found " firm historical and
Biblical" evidence that, that patch of land was
"chosen" for Jews, that they were seriously
considering Uganda as a site for settlement (albeit
temporary at the time), which was known as the Uganda
project. When Herzl's project was disregarded by
Britain, other possible sites were Canada or Australia
for settlement. But for a quirk of fate, the Jews
would have been fighting the Ugandans or Canadians or
Aborigines and that too would have been justified as
"right to defend" by America.

Elisabeth
--------------------------------
Post by cornel
Israel has had many successes on the war-front
especially with Big Brother,
the USA invariably providing it uncritical support
on its many
disproportionate military attacks as now. It has an
absolute right to exist,
ideally in a two-state solution, but it only needs
to fail once to see its
virtual destruction by its many ferocious enemies
who are unlikely to forget
its consistent efforts and determination to occupy
Arab lands
illegitimately. Its survival, according to many
Israelis themselves, in and
outside the country, is based on massive force for
now, and the suppression
of many Middle Eastern peoples. Historical evidence
suggests that, with all
their 'intelligence' they will never be able to
destroy the idea and
reality that much of Palestine is occupied illegally
and colonised under the
pretence of security.
Cornel
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
cornel
2006-07-15 09:23:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi Elizabeth
You are absolutely spot on re the creation and positioning of Israel.
Thanks.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elisabeth Carvalho" <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Cc: <cornel at btinternet.com>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet as learning instrument (re Israel) response to
Cornel
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Dear Cornel,
I have much respect and sympathy for the Jews, for
their enormous contribution to society and their
perseverance through all they've had to endure in
history. However when they had an opportunity to make
right the wrongs of history, they've proven that they
are equally if not more brutal. Palestinian refugee
camps are nothing more than concentration camps.
That Israel occupies this territory out of European
guilt is without doubt. That Britain played the Arabs
dirty is without doubt. I wonder how many people know
that before Europe found " firm historical and
Biblical" evidence that, that patch of land was
"chosen" for Jews, that they were seriously
considering Uganda as a site for settlement (albeit
temporary at the time), which was known as the Uganda
project. When Herzl's project was disregarded by
Britain, other possible sites were Canada or Australia
for settlement. But for a quirk of fate, the Jews
would have been fighting the Ugandans or Canadians or
Aborigines and that too would have been justified as
"right to defend" by America.
Elisabeth
--------------------------------
Post by cornel
Israel has had many successes on the war-front
especially with Big Brother,
the USA invariably providing it uncritical support
on its many
disproportionate military attacks as now. It has an
absolute right to exist,
ideally in a two-state solution, but it only needs
to fail once to see its
virtual destruction by its many ferocious enemies
who are unlikely to forget
its consistent efforts and determination to occupy
Arab lands
illegitimately. Its survival, according to many
Israelis themselves, in and
outside the country, is based on massive force for
now, and the suppression
of many Middle Eastern peoples. Historical evidence
suggests that, with all
their 'intelligence' they will never be able to
destroy the idea and
reality that much of Palestine is occupied illegally
and colonised under the
pretence of security.
Cornel
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Mario Goveia
2006-07-14 15:52:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Valmiki Faleiro
Who can forget Entebbe?
Israel's justified daring attack against a tin-pot
dictator and buffoon like Idi Amin is not
surprising in many respects. Here was an advanced
military nation, with strong American support,
taking on a fifth rate military outpost like Amin's
at the time. Moreover, Entebbe airport, which I
knew well, was not exactly the Pentagon--it was
virtually an open field with a few scattered
cheaply built structures on it, at the time of the
Raid, even thought the subsequent film had many
embellishments to make it a Hollywood block buster.
Mario observes:
Cornel,
It takes a determined anti-Semite like yourself to
make such absurd and derisive comments. The Entebbe
operation was acknowledged by everyone else as a
daring and dangerous long-range surprise operation
that rescued hostages who were under the gun.
Post by Valmiki Faleiro
Israel has had many successes on the war-front
especially with Big Brother, the USA invariably
providing it uncritical support on its many
disproportionate military attacks as now. It has an
absolute right to exist, ideally in a two-state
solution, but it only needs to fail once to see its
virtual destruction by its many ferocious enemies
who are unlikely to forget its consistent efforts
and determination to occupy Arab lands
illegitimately. Its survival, according to many
Israelis themselves, in and outside the country, is
based on massive force for now, and the suppression
of many Middle Eastern peoples. Historical evidence
suggests that, with all their 'intelligence' they
will never be able to destroy the idea and reality
that much of Palestine is occupied illegally
and colonised under the pretence of security.
Mario responds:
Hey, Cornel, thanks for conceding that Israel has a
right to exist in a 2 state configuration.
Apparently it has escaped your biased attention that
that was precisely the configuration that was designed
and implemented in 1947 by the Brits and the UN. It
was your Palestinian friends who did not accept this
configuration, preferring one without Israel, and
instead of negotiating through the UN have tried to
impose their will by force ever since.
How does one deal with someone like you who does not
even know any of this, or that 5 Arab armies attacked
Israel right after they became a state with the goal
of "pushing the Jews into the sea"???
Other than Jordan and Egypt, who gave up on the goal
after getting their behinds kicked, the others are
still trying to "wipe Israel off the map".
As long as your Arab friends continue to try and
eliminate Israel, the US will guarantee their
survival.
You can have whatever opinions you like, delusional as
they may be, but you cannot have your own facts.
International law allows a country to defend itself as
best it can, which Israel has been forced to do for
almost 60 years now.
There is nothing "illegitimate" for a country to hold
territory that they have captured in defending
themselves against an attacking enemy, especially one
threatening to "wipe you out".
There is nothing "disproportionate" in any country
responding to armed attacks whose goal is to eliminate
the country. How do you "proportion" a response to
someone trying to eliminate you? That is pure
left-wing nonsense.
cornel
2006-07-15 15:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Mario
As many Jewish people within the state of Israel and in the Jewish Diaspora
strongly disaprove of the occupation of Palestinian land, your logic would
suggest that, they are all anti-semite. What a daft view?

The occupation of land as in the case of the Israelis is against
international law. The UN has repeatedly asked Israel to vacate that
territory. I do not need your wisdom to tell me that somehow Israel is right
on this issue. You appear to have swallowed the Israeli line about security,
hook line and sinker.

Most countries today, except for the USA, have indicated that Israel's
attack against Lebanon/Gaza is "disproportionate." I therefore do not need
your minority view to persuade me otherwise.

Your extreme right wing position is pretty fascistic as far as I am
concerned. I am fully aware of the nature of the conflict ever since the
Balfour Declaration but believe that Israel can lose in the long run as it
simply can't have the weight of population to sustain it irrespective of
American military support for now. However, I am definitely not for the
elimination of Israel despite what the Hizbulla and other enemies of Israel
say . I believe that negotiated peace is possible if only the Americans
(with the real power) will negotiate fairly on both sides for now. I have
expressed myself endlessly on this issue and have no more intention of
repeating myself.
Cornel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario Goveia" <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet as learning instrument
------------------------------------------------------------------------
* G * O * A * N * E * T **** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May
There is no better, value for money, guest house.
Confirm your bookings early or miss-out
Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Valmiki Faleiro
Who can forget Entebbe?
Israel's justified daring attack against a tin-pot
dictator and buffoon like Idi Amin is not
surprising in many respects. Here was an advanced
military nation, with strong American support,
taking on a fifth rate military outpost like Amin's
at the time. Moreover, Entebbe airport, which I
knew well, was not exactly the Pentagon--it was
virtually an open field with a few scattered
cheaply built structures on it, at the time of the
Raid, even thought the subsequent film had many
embellishments to make it a Hollywood block buster.
Cornel,
It takes a determined anti-Semite like yourself to
make such absurd and derisive comments. The Entebbe
operation was acknowledged by everyone else as a
daring and dangerous long-range surprise operation
that rescued hostages who were under the gun.
Post by Valmiki Faleiro
Israel has had many successes on the war-front
especially with Big Brother, the USA invariably
providing it uncritical support on its many
disproportionate military attacks as now. It has an
absolute right to exist, ideally in a two-state
solution, but it only needs to fail once to see its
virtual destruction by its many ferocious enemies
who are unlikely to forget its consistent efforts
and determination to occupy Arab lands
illegitimately. Its survival, according to many
Israelis themselves, in and outside the country, is
based on massive force for now, and the suppression
of many Middle Eastern peoples. Historical evidence
suggests that, with all their 'intelligence' they
will never be able to destroy the idea and reality
that much of Palestine is occupied illegally
and colonised under the pretence of security.
Hey, Cornel, thanks for conceding that Israel has a
right to exist in a 2 state configuration.
Apparently it has escaped your biased attention that
that was precisely the configuration that was designed
and implemented in 1947 by the Brits and the UN. It
was your Palestinian friends who did not accept this
configuration, preferring one without Israel, and
instead of negotiating through the UN have tried to
impose their will by force ever since.
How does one deal with someone like you who does not
even know any of this, or that 5 Arab armies attacked
Israel right after they became a state with the goal
of "pushing the Jews into the sea"???
Other than Jordan and Egypt, who gave up on the goal
after getting their behinds kicked, the others are
still trying to "wipe Israel off the map".
As long as your Arab friends continue to try and
eliminate Israel, the US will guarantee their
survival.
You can have whatever opinions you like, delusional as
they may be, but you cannot have your own facts.
International law allows a country to defend itself as
best it can, which Israel has been forced to do for
almost 60 years now.
There is nothing "illegitimate" for a country to hold
territory that they have captured in defending
themselves against an attacking enemy, especially one
threatening to "wipe you out".
There is nothing "disproportionate" in any country
responding to armed attacks whose goal is to eliminate
the country. How do you "proportion" a response to
someone trying to eliminate you? That is pure
left-wing nonsense.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at lists.goanet.org
http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-16 01:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Valmiki Faleiro
Who can forget Entebbe?
Israel's justified daring attack against a tin-pot
dictator and buffoon like Idi Amin is not
surprising in many respects. Here was an advanced
military nation, with strong American support,
taking on a fifth rate military outpost like Amin's
at the time. Moreover, Entebbe airport, which I
knew well, was
not exactly the Pentagon--it was virtually an open
field with a few scattered cheaply built structures
on it, at the time of the Raid, even
thought the subsequent film had many embellishments
to make it a Hollywood block buster.
Cornel,
Israel lucked out in that Entebbe airport was built by
an Israeli contractor. The Israeli's were able to
secure all the blue prints immediately. I was working
for a Mangalorian accounting firm in Tanzania at the
time of the raid. We had a contract to store all the
financial archives of the Israel's contractors work in
E. Africa.
Post by Valmiki Faleiro
Post by Valmiki Faleiro
But the Sinai radar and PLO HQ storming, which
occured much before, had their own brilliance.
(Both were staged, incidentally, by the Mossad.)
Military victories are one thing. However, military
brilliance cannot be over shadowed by political
stupidity. The Israelis admit that Mossad created and
funded Hamas. Now they are paying the price for that
stupidity.

Lastly, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Druze etc lived
together in harmony in Israel from the time of the
crusades till the time Britain decided to carve out a
nation for those who used the Bible as a title deed.

Mervyn.0



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Valmiki Faleiro
2006-07-16 02:44:14 UTC
Permalink
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Url: /pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/attachments/20060716/bbf31432/attachment.ksh
Valmiki Faleiro
2006-07-16 02:07:12 UTC
Permalink
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Url: /pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/attachments/20060716/3ed6cea6/attachment.ksh
Mario Goveia
2006-07-16 16:45:42 UTC
Permalink
--- Valmiki Faleiro <valmikif at rediffmail.com> wrote:
Dear Cornel and Mario,
With due respect to both, what about the
sheer mishandling of the Mandate by the Brits?
Wouldn't Jan-1948 be entirely evitable had
the Brits handled the mandate fairly?
Mario asks:
Valmiki,
How does one determine with hind-sight whether the
Palestine Mandate was "mishandled" by the Brits, or
that it was "fair"? Isn't "fair" in such matters in
the eye of the beholder, depending on whose ox is
being gored? Is "fair" even relevent any more?
In addition, the entire world community at the time,
in the form of the UN, ratified the partition, so why
are the Brits singled out for abuse?
Was the partition of India "fair"? I think the
partition of India was the most mishandled and
unfortunate event in recent history and should never
have taken place to placate the paranoid Muslims led
by Jinnah. Yet it was accepted by both sides and,
after the initial mayhem, those displaced went on with
their lives. No Indian or Pakistani lays claim to
their ancestral properties or demands a "right of
return". Such sophistries seem to be selectively
reserved only for the Palestinians by Cornel and the
entire left-wing worldwide.
Finally, regardless of the "fairness" of the
decisions, wouldn't the civilized approach by those
aggrieved to have negotiated their grievances with the
UN, the Brits and the Israelis, instead of
unilaterally deciding in 1948 to "push the Jews into
the sea", and it's modern incarnation, to "wipe Israel
off the map"?
Valmiki Faleiro
2006-07-17 18:23:12 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario Goveia" <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Valmiki Faleiro" <valmikif at rediffmail.com>; "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goanet as learning instrument
Post by Mario Goveia
Was the partition of India "fair"? I think the
partition of India was the most mishandled and
unfortunate event in recent history and should never
have taken place to placate the paranoid Muslims led
by Jinnah.
Dear Mario,

Who said the partition of India was fair?
Did I say or suggest?

I entirely agree with your next sentence above. But
am quizzed that you still seem to hold a brief for the
British mandate ... by extension, to their doling out
lands to the Sauds and Sheiks, which almost a
century later led to Saddam invading Kuwait. (Now,
before you ask me to build a crusade against the
Brits or the Sauds or the Sheiks, kindly be informed
that I support neither war nor terror.)
-Valmiki
cornel
2006-07-18 04:22:42 UTC
Permalink
Valmiki
This is a quick response to say that the Balfour Declaration by Britain was
a big mistake but we have to live with it. The great powers at the time, and
Britain was the super power then, simply dished out other people's property
(and still does illegally e.g. the islands in the Indian Ocean as a military
base for the USA) to clients of their choosing. Britain is definitely in the
wrong over the formation of Israel irrespective of its then achievement to
win international support for its formation. This is my reflective view
whilst recognising that we can do nothing about it now beyond the USA
getting the two sides to talk and talk until there is a resolution to this
crisis. The USA does hold the cards today as the only super power but it has
to operate equitably rather than take the side of Israel at the behest of
the powerful Jewish/Israeli lobby in the States. Only when an American
President has the guts and ability to take on the Jewish lobby in the USA,
and also the Arab people in the Middle East, will we have peace in that
region. To date, all efforts have been partial, including the Jewish
occupation, and in favour of the Jewish lobby in my view.

Mario's seemingly peaceful parallel with the India/Pakistan situation is not
on as potential conflict in that region is ongoing, and often, just under
the surface. It flares up all the time. Once again, I have been very
critical of Britain initiating the split to maintain its toe-hold in the
sub-continent. A secular big India was infinitely preferrable to me than a
religious based Pakistan split from India.
Cornel
Radhakrishnan Nair
2006-07-18 10:56:09 UTC
Permalink
<<Cornel wrote: Once again, I have been very critical of Britain
initiating the split to maintain its toe-hold in the sub-continent. A
secular big India was infinitely preferrable to me than a religious
based Pakistan split from India.>>

It's not irrational to believe that an undivided India would have been
untenable on many counts: too big and ungovernable with too many pulls
and pressures -- not to speak of the sectarian violence and even civil
wars that are all too conceivable. True secularism and democracy are
unpalatable concepts to vast sections of the South Asian population.

-- RKN
Gabe Menezes
2006-07-18 22:02:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
<<Cornel wrote: Once again, I have been very critical of Britain
initiating the split to maintain its toe-hold in the sub-continent. A
secular big India was infinitely preferrable to me than a religious
based Pakistan split from India.>>
It's not irrational to believe that an undivided India would have been
untenable on many counts: too big and ungovernable with too many pulls
and pressures -- not to speak of the sectarian violence and even civil
wars that are all too conceivable. True secularism and democracy are
unpalatable concepts to vast sections of the South Asian population.
-- RKN
RESPONSE: Yes we should follow the Singapore model and ask for a Goa
plebiscite, on whether we want to be independent of India, no?

This would fulfill the promise made eons ago!!
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Mario Goveia
2006-07-18 14:10:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Valmiki Faleiro
Who said the partition of India was fair?
Did I say or suggest?
Mario clarifies:
The partition of India as well as Palestine were done
within about a year of each other, by the Brits,
ratified by the UN. Both could be described as
"fairly" or "unfairly" depending on whose ox was
gored. Hence, there is a logical comparison to be
made as to how the Indians/Pakistanis moved on
thereafter and lay no claim to their ancestral
properties and how the left-wing world has allowed the
Palestinians to not only make this claim, but allowed
the Palestinians since 1948 to eschew a negotiated
settlement and actively and openly advocate and try to
execute the destruction of Israel. I hope you see the
connection now.
Post by Valmiki Faleiro
I entirely agree with your next sentence above. But
am quizzed that you still seem to hold a brief for
the British mandate ... by extension, to their
doling out lands to the Sauds and Sheiks, which
almost a century later led to Saddam invading
Kuwait. (Now, before you ask me to build a crusade
against the Brits or the Sauds or the Sheiks,
kindly be informed that I support neither war nor
terror.)
Mario responds:
Valmiki, please don't insult my intelligence by
comparing apples and oranges, and using loaded words
like "crusade" from the Christian fascist period.
In your article in O'Heraldo, you wrote a stirring
clarion call and prescription for doing nothing in
response to the Mumbai bombings, while making it seem
like you were advocating action. Then you later said
that you would advocate "THE VERY SAME WAY they cross
our borders and attack us, 'without our permission'",
which fit in perfectly with your earlier call for
doing nothing, because who is the "they" you want to
be the same as?
The "they" who are crossing our borders are part of
the world-wide terrorist movement. They don't need
anyone's permission to cross borders and kill
civilians. While you may justifiably accuse
"Pakistan", i.e. the government, of aiding and
abetting the terrorists in earlier years, that same
"Pakistan" is now under a deadly threat by these same
terrorists. So you suggestion means that someone in
India would have to organize and lead a clandestine
movement against the Muslim terrorists by crossing the
border and attacking them. I suggested you lead this
group since it was your idea:-)) The Indian
government is not about to do anything, because it is
"only" people who were killed. They only react to
territorial losses.
I don't hold any brief for any 58 year old mandate.
My point, which you seem to be missing, is that the
"British Mandate" as you insist on calling it, whether
you liked it's details or not, was ratified by the UN,
thus making it a UN mandate. The Brits were involved
because they controlled all those territories for
hundreds of years and were in the process of unwinding
their colonial empire. They made decisions that
suited them, as any colonial power would do.
How can you blame the Brits for the subsequent lethal
animosities between Sunnis and Shia, the failure to
not only reject Israel but to try and destroy them by
force, and the absence of democractic governments in
the Muslim world, with one or two exceptions.
In the meantime do you give credit for Israel trying
hard to be a democracy, whereas it could justifiably
operate under martial law with all the attacks taking
place against them?
This is where the comparison with India/Pakistan comes
in. With a similar background of British colonial
rule, how did India, with it's incredibly diversity,
develop such a strong tradition of democracy and
secularism, whereas all the previously British
colonies with majority Muslim populations are
uniformly totalitarian and theocratic for the most
part? Why do the Muslim countries almost always try
to get their way by force rather than negotiations,
including their attack on Kashmir in 1947 before the
planned referendum could be organizes?
Instead of pondering these issues you continue to
question the arcane details of the 58 year old
"British Mandate", while deliberately omitting the
fact that entire world, represented by the UN,
ratified the plan.
Why do you and others absolve the feckless UN in any
of what is going on? Weren't they formed to arbitrate
international conflicts, and have consistently failed
to do so under Kofi Annan?
Mervyn Lobo
2006-07-19 01:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by cornel
whilst recognising that we can do nothing about it
now beyond the USA
getting the two sides to talk and talk until there
is a resolution to this
crisis. The USA does hold the cards today as the
only super power but it has
to operate equitably rather than take the side of
Israel at the behest of
the powerful Jewish/Israeli lobby in the States.
Only when an American
President has the guts and ability to take on the
Jewish lobby in the USA,
and also the Arab people in the Middle East, will we
have peace in that region. To date, all efforts
have been partial, including the Jewish occupation,
and in favour of the Jewish lobby in my view.
Cornel,
The only peace break thru in the M.E. in the last
twenty years was brought about by the Norwegians. All
it took was ten days of negotiations.

As long as the US is in charge of the "peace process"
in the middle east, we are going to have more
violence.

Mervyn3.0






__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-19 05:12:24 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mr Nair,
I agree with you that an undivided India would be
untenable. Infact, I often feel the India of today is
a splintered group trying desperately to keep itself
together but that is another post.

The four estates of democracy maybe the legislative,
judiciary, executive and a free and unfretted press,
but I feel the pillars of democracy are its education
system, an equitable per capita income and to a large
extent an ideology of secularism.

India has none of these. More that half its population
is illiterate or semi-literate, there are vast
disparities in its income distribution and it pays lip
service to secularism. As a result, we have powerful
vested interests that gain popularity or momentum and
come to power. The silent middleclass remains
unrepresented. Most functional democracies have a
robust middleclass that forms the bell of the curve
rather than the fringe.

India, as someone eloquently put it is a "functioning
anarchy".

Elisabeth
---------------------------
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
It's not irrational to believe that an undivided
India would have been
untenable on many counts: too big and ungovernable
with too many pulls
and pressures -- not to speak of the sectarian
violence and even civil
wars that are all too conceivable. True secularism
and democracy are
unpalatable concepts to vast sections of the South
Asian population.
-- RKN
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at lists.goanet.org
http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-19 09:31:49 UTC
Permalink
You're seeing the glass as half-empty, Elisabeth. And, as someone who
decided to 'vote with your feet', I think that's only natural.

Imagine a country which emerges from colonialism and survives five
decades without a military coup, has still huge problems of poverty
and illiteracy but manages to give a substantial section of its
population a fairly human existance. One that has been able to build
manpower (and womanpower, you included) that is able to take on the
world and perform well wherever they be. That too, with all the odds
against it!

I'm no fan of the "India will be a superpower" theory, but I guess you
could expect some surprises specially from the more-educated, more
socially-enlightened southern parts of India in the years ahead. Watch
this space...

And, along with friends from the sub-continent, I believe that over
the next 15-20 years, we could well see a United States of South Asia.
(Maybe that's a bad choice of a name, given the hegemonic connotations
that any mix between the USA+USSR would have! My friend Kanak Mani
Dixit of Himal in Nepal calls it Sasia. One word with asia spelt in
all small alphabets. If Europe, which taught Asia the ideas of
nationalism, can turn its back on it, why can't we forget the more
intense forms of 'nationalism' and think of wider spaces and borders
that benefit all? Of course, India would have to learn to play less of
a hegemonic role here and accomodate the other smaller nations to make
them feel comfortable in such a setting.)

I don't agree with my colleague RKN's view that an undivided India
would have been unsustainable. To me, it seems based on the logic that
Muslims-aren't-people-like-us. (Who is the "vast sections" of South
Asia whom RKN is talking about? Don't they exist within the borders of
current-day India?) If his logic was true, then Goa wouldn't be able
to exist within an India, and the Old Conquests should be fighting a
war of secession from the New Conquests. Rather, the other way round,
since the "Novas Conquistas" have every right to feel colonised by us
chappies sitting along the central coast.

At the end of the day, it isn't about size. It's about justice.

If India is able to accomodate its many diverse strands and sections,
there's no reason why it shouldn't survive or even thrive. More
intolerance will lead to an implosion of the Indian state from within.
As far as the Mumbai blasts are concerned, I was a bit surprised that
no one raised the point of India needing to cope with dissent and
diversity in more efficient ways. There was a lot of this in the early
years after Independence. But, as we forget the need to accomodate
everyone, we also get more intolerant... The
let's-do-a-Israel-on-Pakistan arguments aren't taking us anywhere
closer to a resolution of our many conflicts.

If the Punjab problem could be healed (or so it seems) over time,
there's no reason why more understanding can't sort out Kashmir.
Religious differences are, after all, only skin deep. FN
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
The four estates of democracy maybe the legislative,
judiciary, executive and a free and unfretted press,
but I feel the pillars of democracy are its education
system, an equitable per capita income and to a large
extent an ideology of secularism.
India has none of these. More that half its population
is illiterate or semi-literate, there are vast
disparities in its income distribution and it pays lip
service to secularism. As a result, we have powerful
vested interests that gain popularity or momentum and
come to power. The silent middleclass remains
unrepresented. Most functional democracies have a
robust middleclass that forms the bell of the curve
rather than the fringe.
India, as someone eloquently put it is a "functioning
anarchy".
Elisabeth
---------------------------
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
It's not irrational to believe that an undivided
India would have been
untenable on many counts: too big and ungovernable
with too many pulls
and pressures -- not to speak of the sectarian
violence and even civil
wars that are all too conceivable. True secularism
and democracy are
unpalatable concepts to vast sections of the South
Asian population.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...