Discussion:
Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
(too old to reply)
anil desai
2008-06-29 16:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Dear Goanetters,

I have been contributing to goanet for several months now and I have
expressed my concerns about bigoted views expressed by some individuals on
this forum. this should be of concern to all of us.

I quote below the dictionary definition of Bigot below:

*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]

1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]

2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.

To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.

Now consider how Miguel Braganza has been writing about the infamous VCD and
expressing his anguish about the pain felt by Catholics.

Then in a recent post he wrote thus:

Manohar Parrikar cannot be an incarnation of Vishnu. He is an
"addvo Bamonn" affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a Shiva worshipper [Hence,perhaps, Rajan
Parrikar's phallic fetish].

My response

It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion but apply to
politics as well. So, go on. Let us have more of your incoherent rants.


Anil Desai
Carvalho
2008-06-29 17:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by anil desai
It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be
profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like
myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to
know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion
------------------------------
Dear Dr Desai,

It is interesting to note that of all the bigoted, xenophobic people that abound on Goanet, you choose to admonish Miguel Branganza for being a bigot. Isn't it convenient what we find offensive in life?

Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how you brand people on this board.

You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is, unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.

selma
Carvalho
2008-06-29 18:44:03 UTC
Permalink
February 24th, 2003 was a day my husband and I celebrated being Indian. It wasn?t earmarked on our calendar for any particular reason save for the fact that we landed at Chicago bus station in the early morning of that day.

Chicago is one of the two states in the US that offers consular services for Indians and we being in need of some paperwork, had decided to take the Greyhound from Minnesota, through Wisconsin into Chicago. We ventured outside the terminal into the blistering cold of a Chicago winter morning to find ourselves amidst a sea of fellow bus-travelers who were all awaiting taxis to ferry them onwards. The probability of us finding a taxi was slim and so we braced ourselves for a long wait in the cold.

Chicago is a stark and forbidding city at the best of times, not particularly renowned for its benevolence to strangers. While my husband and I awaited with frozen fingers, toes and hearts, a taxi-cab whizzed past the crowds, swerved in front of us and offered us a ride. We were slightly embarrassed as it is not the done thing in America to bump the queue but we were desperate and jumped into the cab without asking too many questions.

The young driver was Indian. His single question to us was if we were from India, to which we replied in the affirmative. We don?t know which part of India he hailed from, presumably up North, nor do we know what prompted this young man into this act of kindness. Perhaps he felt sorry for bedraggled looking Indians standing at the bus station. Perhaps somewhere inside him was a desire to reach out and help fellow countrymen, however recessed the memory of that country and his association with it may have been.

Beyond the religiocentric and ethnocentric identities of India, there is a larger nation-centric identity that exists for us Indians and it manifests itself most emphatically when we are outside of India. Infact our largesse spreads even to Sri Lankans, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis, reveling in a certain Indian sub-continental kinship. Why then do we turn inwards and fragment so easily within the boundaries of India itself?

selma
Venantius Pinto
2008-06-29 19:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Anil,
So you are actually expressly soliciting incoherent remarks --you are
perhaps not joking?

Miguel's remark about the phallic fetish was said in context to Rajan text
where he used the word ejaculate. You know that don't you, This word along
with ejaculation has more than one meaning and is often employed as
double-entendre (double meaning, in Marathi koddea ni bolna) by those in
possession of sharp-wit. Do make an analogy between what these stalwarts
were engaging in. Miguels was a retort to Rajan. They both know what they
are saying. What purpose will it serve Anil for you to bring this up? Convey
your hurt in a way that will bring your cause understanding, rather than
applying a higher factor to it and inviting incoherent remarks. If something
really hurt me, I would say it. Now you are not me (in a way we are though
going by the highest tenets of Dharma and sangha), but still you have better
language than my feeble attempts to put things across, Its like Bush saying,
"Bring it on," which is crude and does not accomplish much by way of
bringing people together. Unless that is not the intent.

Btw, ithyphallic is a proud amd reverential term at least in Art History. It
was regarded as indecent by Victorians, as were other words that defeaned
their senses and jolted their false realities as the public face of that
society. Furthermore, there are paintings depicting the naked Christ with
exposed genitalia (conveying the aspect of becoming man), that is, before
the Christian world turned relatively prude. In the past aside from the
hedonism, ithyphallic gods like Bacchus who were considered too salacious
for timid minds and newer societies. I have not to my knowledge, come across
a Goanetter who has has regarded Shiva (Rudra, Mahesh, and his 1008 names)
in crude and crafty light.

I will not participate any further in this discussion if my views are placed
in poor light.


Venantius



Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:43:02 +0100
From: "anil desai" <anildesa at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
Dear Goanetters,
I have been contributing to goanet for several months now and I have
expressed my concerns about bigoted views expressed by some individuals on
this forum. this should be of concern to all of us.
*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the
Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]
2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing
from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.
To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.
Now consider how Miguel Braganza has been writing about the infamous VCD
and
expressing his anguish about the pain felt by Catholics.
Manohar Parrikar cannot be an incarnation of Vishnu. He is an
"addvo Bamonn" affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a Shiva worshipper [Hence,perhaps, Rajan
Parrikar's phallic fetish].
My response
It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion but apply to
politics as well. So, go on. Let us have more of your incoherent rants.
Anil Desai
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-06-29 22:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Dears (shameless plagiarised from Miguel)

I agree with those who label Miguel Braganza as a bigot.

There are many examples of Miguel's bigotry. I will try to enumerate
some of the ones for which I have references, and I will manufacture
the ones when I cannot find any references

1. Miguel praised Admiral Thimayya
2. Criticised a modern day Cobra
3. He cast aspersions on a Mumbai based Deo
4. Demeaned famous Goa freedom fighter and brilliant author of script
for film script on Goa as being a 'thumb impression' person - thereby
implying that Xri Flaviano of being unable to sign his own name (for
work he may or may not have wanted to sign for). Miguel may wish to
note that even Judas Iscariot could not write - so what?

More examples of bigotry at:
http://osdir.com/ml/culture.region.india.goa.research/2004-12/msg00002.html

The above having been noted - I have two further charges of bigotry
and revisionism which are impossible to refute:

5: Based of the Cornelian theory of Gates, Miguel, in his adopted
language of Deo-nagri Cockney (spoken in Southall, Middlesex, UK), now
wants to name the Viceroy's Gate in Old Goa as Darwaza di 'Bhaille'.
(Foreigner's Gate) - even though I went there in my Mercedes Benj the
other day, and found NO gate in the Viceroy's gate nor at India gate.

6: Based on some agro-theory, Miguel has been agro-waiting/aggravating
many devotees of the Moira banana. He is demeaning the Moira banana -
which is worshipped by many as the largest banana in town.

I am happy to bring this Miguel Braganza to the book - He was after
all the chap who had the nerve to expose that
communal-harmony-inspiring movie financed by the Goa Gorrment under
the benevolent and honest leadership of the CM in waiting i.e. Manohar
Parrikar.

I trust you found this and previous discussions on Miguel important -
especially because there are no important problems facing Goa today.
Indeed, Goa has been liberated of the problems - a good 46+ years ago.

Ain't that a fact?
jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-06-29 22:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Dears (shameless plagiarised from Miguel)

I agree with those who label Miguel Braganza as a bigot.

There are many examples of Miguel's bigotry. I will try to enumerate
some of the ones for which I have references, and I will manufacture
the ones when I cannot find any references

1. Miguel praised Admiral Thimayya
2. Criticised a modern day Cobra
3. He cast aspersions on a Mumbai based Deo
4. Demeaned famous Goa freedom fighter and brilliant author of script
for film script on Goa as being a 'thumb impression' person - thereby
implying that Xri Flaviano of being unable to sign his own name (for
work he may or may not have wanted to sign for). Miguel may wish to
note that even Judas Iscariot could not write - so what?

More examples of bigotry at:
http://osdir.com/ml/culture.region.india.goa.research/2004-12/msg00002.html

The above having been noted - I have two further charges of bigotry
and revisionism which are impossible to refute:

5: Based of the Cornelian theory of Gates, Miguel, in his adopted
language of Deo-nagri Cockney (spoken in Southall, Middlesex, UK), now
wants to name the Viceroy's Gate in Old Goa as Darwaza di 'Bhaille'.
(Foreigner's Gate) - even though I went there in my Mercedes Benj the
other day, and found NO gate in the Viceroy's gate nor at India gate.

6: Based on some agro-theory, Miguel has been agro-waiting/aggravating
many devotees of the Moira banana. He is demeaning the Moira banana -
which is worshipped by many as the largest banana in town.

I am happy to bring this Miguel Braganza to the book - He was after
all the chap who had the nerve to expose that
communal-harmony-inspiring movie financed by the Goa Gorrment under
the benevolent and honest leadership of the CM in waiting i.e. Manohar
Parrikar.

I trust you found this and previous discussions on Miguel important -
especially because there are no important problems facing Goa today.
Indeed, Goa has been liberated of the problems - a good 46+ years ago.

Ain't that a fact?
jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-06-29 22:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Dears (shameless plagiarised from Miguel)

I agree with those who label Miguel Braganza as a bigot.

There are many examples of Miguel's bigotry. I will try to enumerate
some of the ones for which I have references, and I will manufacture
the ones when I cannot find any references

1. Miguel praised Admiral Thimayya
2. Criticised a modern day Cobra
3. He cast aspersions on a Mumbai based Deo
4. Demeaned famous Goa freedom fighter and brilliant author of script
for film script on Goa as being a 'thumb impression' person - thereby
implying that Xri Flaviano of being unable to sign his own name (for
work he may or may not have wanted to sign for). Miguel may wish to
note that even Judas Iscariot could not write - so what?

More examples of bigotry at:
http://osdir.com/ml/culture.region.india.goa.research/2004-12/msg00002.html

The above having been noted - I have two further charges of bigotry
and revisionism which are impossible to refute:

5: Based of the Cornelian theory of Gates, Miguel, in his adopted
language of Deo-nagri Cockney (spoken in Southall, Middlesex, UK), now
wants to name the Viceroy's Gate in Old Goa as Darwaza di 'Bhaille'.
(Foreigner's Gate) - even though I went there in my Mercedes Benj the
other day, and found NO gate in the Viceroy's gate nor at India gate.

6: Based on some agro-theory, Miguel has been agro-waiting/aggravating
many devotees of the Moira banana. He is demeaning the Moira banana -
which is worshipped by many as the largest banana in town.

I am happy to bring this Miguel Braganza to the book - He was after
all the chap who had the nerve to expose that
communal-harmony-inspiring movie financed by the Goa Gorrment under
the benevolent and honest leadership of the CM in waiting i.e. Manohar
Parrikar.

I trust you found this and previous discussions on Miguel important -
especially because there are no important problems facing Goa today.
Indeed, Goa has been liberated of the problems - a good 46+ years ago.

Ain't that a fact?
jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-06-29 22:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Dears (shameless plagiarised from Miguel)

I agree with those who label Miguel Braganza as a bigot.

There are many examples of Miguel's bigotry. I will try to enumerate
some of the ones for which I have references, and I will manufacture
the ones when I cannot find any references

1. Miguel praised Admiral Thimayya
2. Criticised a modern day Cobra
3. He cast aspersions on a Mumbai based Deo
4. Demeaned famous Goa freedom fighter and brilliant author of script
for film script on Goa as being a 'thumb impression' person - thereby
implying that Xri Flaviano of being unable to sign his own name (for
work he may or may not have wanted to sign for). Miguel may wish to
note that even Judas Iscariot could not write - so what?

More examples of bigotry at:
http://osdir.com/ml/culture.region.india.goa.research/2004-12/msg00002.html

The above having been noted - I have two further charges of bigotry
and revisionism which are impossible to refute:

5: Based of the Cornelian theory of Gates, Miguel, in his adopted
language of Deo-nagri Cockney (spoken in Southall, Middlesex, UK), now
wants to name the Viceroy's Gate in Old Goa as Darwaza di 'Bhaille'.
(Foreigner's Gate) - even though I went there in my Mercedes Benj the
other day, and found NO gate in the Viceroy's gate nor at India gate.

6: Based on some agro-theory, Miguel has been agro-waiting/aggravating
many devotees of the Moira banana. He is demeaning the Moira banana -
which is worshipped by many as the largest banana in town.

I am happy to bring this Miguel Braganza to the book - He was after
all the chap who had the nerve to expose that
communal-harmony-inspiring movie financed by the Goa Gorrment under
the benevolent and honest leadership of the CM in waiting i.e. Manohar
Parrikar.

I trust you found this and previous discussions on Miguel important -
especially because there are no important problems facing Goa today.
Indeed, Goa has been liberated of the problems - a good 46+ years ago.

Ain't that a fact?
jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-06-29 22:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Dears (shameless plagiarised from Miguel)

I agree with those who label Miguel Braganza as a bigot.

There are many examples of Miguel's bigotry. I will try to enumerate
some of the ones for which I have references, and I will manufacture
the ones when I cannot find any references

1. Miguel praised Admiral Thimayya
2. Criticised a modern day Cobra
3. He cast aspersions on a Mumbai based Deo
4. Demeaned famous Goa freedom fighter and brilliant author of script
for film script on Goa as being a 'thumb impression' person - thereby
implying that Xri Flaviano of being unable to sign his own name (for
work he may or may not have wanted to sign for). Miguel may wish to
note that even Judas Iscariot could not write - so what?

More examples of bigotry at:
http://osdir.com/ml/culture.region.india.goa.research/2004-12/msg00002.html

The above having been noted - I have two further charges of bigotry
and revisionism which are impossible to refute:

5: Based of the Cornelian theory of Gates, Miguel, in his adopted
language of Deo-nagri Cockney (spoken in Southall, Middlesex, UK), now
wants to name the Viceroy's Gate in Old Goa as Darwaza di 'Bhaille'.
(Foreigner's Gate) - even though I went there in my Mercedes Benj the
other day, and found NO gate in the Viceroy's gate nor at India gate.

6: Based on some agro-theory, Miguel has been agro-waiting/aggravating
many devotees of the Moira banana. He is demeaning the Moira banana -
which is worshipped by many as the largest banana in town.

I am happy to bring this Miguel Braganza to the book - He was after
all the chap who had the nerve to expose that
communal-harmony-inspiring movie financed by the Goa Gorrment under
the benevolent and honest leadership of the CM in waiting i.e. Manohar
Parrikar.

I trust you found this and previous discussions on Miguel important -
especially because there are no important problems facing Goa today.
Indeed, Goa has been liberated of the problems - a good 46+ years ago.

Ain't that a fact?
jc
colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )
2008-06-29 22:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Dears (shameless plagiarised from Miguel)

I agree with those who label Miguel Braganza as a bigot.

There are many examples of Miguel's bigotry. I will try to enumerate
some of the ones for which I have references, and I will manufacture
the ones when I cannot find any references

1. Miguel praised Admiral Thimayya
2. Criticised a modern day Cobra
3. He cast aspersions on a Mumbai based Deo
4. Demeaned famous Goa freedom fighter and brilliant author of script
for film script on Goa as being a 'thumb impression' person - thereby
implying that Xri Flaviano of being unable to sign his own name (for
work he may or may not have wanted to sign for). Miguel may wish to
note that even Judas Iscariot could not write - so what?

More examples of bigotry at:
http://osdir.com/ml/culture.region.india.goa.research/2004-12/msg00002.html

The above having been noted - I have two further charges of bigotry
and revisionism which are impossible to refute:

5: Based of the Cornelian theory of Gates, Miguel, in his adopted
language of Deo-nagri Cockney (spoken in Southall, Middlesex, UK), now
wants to name the Viceroy's Gate in Old Goa as Darwaza di 'Bhaille'.
(Foreigner's Gate) - even though I went there in my Mercedes Benj the
other day, and found NO gate in the Viceroy's gate nor at India gate.

6: Based on some agro-theory, Miguel has been agro-waiting/aggravating
many devotees of the Moira banana. He is demeaning the Moira banana -
which is worshipped by many as the largest banana in town.

I am happy to bring this Miguel Braganza to the book - He was after
all the chap who had the nerve to expose that
communal-harmony-inspiring movie financed by the Goa Gorrment under
the benevolent and honest leadership of the CM in waiting i.e. Manohar
Parrikar.

I trust you found this and previous discussions on Miguel important -
especially because there are no important problems facing Goa today.
Indeed, Goa has been liberated of the problems - a good 46+ years ago.

Ain't that a fact?
jc
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-06-30 00:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Venantius post?likely puts?Miguel's remarks in context and sheds some light.? Miguel can expand the context in which he used the remarks.
?
However even if used 'in context', the fact that those comments offended the religious sentiment of an individual or a?section of a community makes it wrong.? Just because Rajan used it in his text, does not permit another to show lack of sensitivity and good judgment.?One wrong does not justify another wrong, (intended or unintended), especially when there is no coherence to the exact point being made.
?
Goans (both Catholics and Hindus) have a very difficult time to say "I am sorry".? Permit?me to extend an unqualified apology to Anil and other Hindus for an unwarranted and crude reference to their religion.??
?
Thanks for providing the?definition of "Bigotry".? ?With that definition, one can be a bigot about ones own religion by having?"views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right," and considering contrary views "differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked".
?
Regards, GL
?
------------ Venantius Pinto

Miguel's remark about the phallic fetish was said in context to Rajan text where he used the word ejaculate. You know that don't you, ......?
Do make an analogy between what these stalwarts were engaging in. Miguels was a retort to Rajan.
Btw, ithy phallic is a proud amd reverential term at least in Art History.

--------------- anil desai
?
Bigot - A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is?intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or?morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
?
?It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly?offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa?and outside, isnt it?
Santosh Helekar
2008-06-30 05:40:03 UTC
Permalink
The following definitions ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.

Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has carefully avoided being a hypocrite.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by anil desai
*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name
once given to the Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a
whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to
terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the
same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]
2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters
of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to
or differing from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a
person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in
politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own
church, party,
belief, or opinion.
To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and
believe. --Macaulay.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-06-30 06:57:52 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Carvalho
Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT.
Miguel Braganza's many instances of bigotry against
bamons are to be found in the Goanet archives. Selma
Cardozo seems to have taken pains to deceive herself
before deceiving others. Perplexing, for someone who
makes a song & dance about her own integrity.

But Miguel Braganza is much more than a vanilla bigot.
He is a purveyor of falsehoods, and a coward to boot.
To cite but one instance: he reported on Goanet some
days back that I verbally abused him at Cafe Prakash.
Guilty as charged. It was a great pleasure. However,
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.

Soter D'Souza and I were sitting on one table and
Braganza on the other. He had made claims here
on Goanet that the Goa People's Assembly was a
plot hatched by saffron forces/BJP/Manohar Parrikar,
and that Soter had been cleverly manipulated and
controlled by me in service of the saffron lobby's
nefarious ends.

Now that the principals - Soter and I - in this alleged
conspiracy were all in one room, I asked Miguel
Braganza to lay out his evidence for the claims
he had publicly made. He had nothing to show.
Nada. Shoonya. Zifr. All we got were strange
sounds like "Bup. Bup. Glug. Glug." The tiger behind
the keyboard and in the safety of his home had
suddenly turned into a mouse. It was then that
Soter and I both administered to him a verbal
shower laced with invective. He was back the
next morning on Goanet bawling like a baby,
with more of his Looney Tunes.

That's Miguel Braganza for you. Now back to
the regularly scheduled programming.

Warm regards,


r
Seb dc
2008-07-01 03:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Rajan,

I may have missed this post from Miguel, which you quote below. If that were
his
exact words, I would be gald to read it, can you post the link please...

I remember your earlier post in which you had put Miguel's mobile number,
about GPA's meet at Mandovi. But as Miguel clarified later that you had
jumped the gun and posted what was actually meant for some press release.
Goanetters never heard any thing from you on that matter.

I have a feeling since Miguel was not part of your meet, you are now getting
back at him. Until then you had no problems with him. Its something hard to
digest. Its like Bush theory...'You are either with us or Not with us.' Btw,
if thats how you feel than we should have all the 40 thieves on one side
along with the minning lobby and builders and the other side all the Goans
who want to save Goa. I am sure you and Miguel will be on the same side
then! we are just playing into our common enemies hands by side stepping
real issue here.
I would suggest all like minded goans get together on a common platform,
leaving our differences aside and join hands to fight the bigger evil. that
is something to ponder, isn't it?.

Thats what counts and more important....as all these pics of atrocities on
our land won't serve any purpose, until we join hands to flush the bailo.
Cause all that people do here is play mud
slinging matches, nothing positive comes out at the end of the day!!

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb

From: "Rajan P. Parrikar" <parrikar at yahoo.com>
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
Soter D'Souza and I were sitting on one table and
Braganza on the other. He had made claims here
on Goanet that the Goa People's Assembly was a
plot hatched by saffron forces/BJP/Manohar Parrikar,
and that Soter had been cleverly manipulated and
controlled by me in service of the saffron lobby's
nefarious ends.
Seb dc
2008-07-01 03:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Rajan,

I may have missed this post from Miguel, which you quote below. If that were
his
exact words, I would be gald to read it, can you post the link please...

I remember your earlier post in which you had put Miguel's mobile number,
about GPA's meet at Mandovi. But as Miguel clarified later that you had
jumped the gun and posted what was actually meant for some press release.
Goanetters never heard any thing from you on that matter.

I have a feeling since Miguel was not part of your meet, you are now getting
back at him. Until then you had no problems with him. Its something hard to
digest. Its like Bush theory...'You are either with us or Not with us.' Btw,
if thats how you feel than we should have all the 40 thieves on one side
along with the minning lobby and builders and the other side all the Goans
who want to save Goa. I am sure you and Miguel will be on the same side
then! we are just playing into our common enemies hands by side stepping
real issue here.
I would suggest all like minded goans get together on a common platform,
leaving our differences aside and join hands to fight the bigger evil. that
is something to ponder, isn't it?.

Thats what counts and more important....as all these pics of atrocities on
our land won't serve any purpose, until we join hands to flush the bailo.
Cause all that people do here is play mud
slinging matches, nothing positive comes out at the end of the day!!

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb

From: "Rajan P. Parrikar" <parrikar at yahoo.com>
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
Soter D'Souza and I were sitting on one table and
Braganza on the other. He had made claims here
on Goanet that the Goa People's Assembly was a
plot hatched by saffron forces/BJP/Manohar Parrikar,
and that Soter had been cleverly manipulated and
controlled by me in service of the saffron lobby's
nefarious ends.
Seb dc
2008-07-01 03:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Rajan,

I may have missed this post from Miguel, which you quote below. If that were
his
exact words, I would be gald to read it, can you post the link please...

I remember your earlier post in which you had put Miguel's mobile number,
about GPA's meet at Mandovi. But as Miguel clarified later that you had
jumped the gun and posted what was actually meant for some press release.
Goanetters never heard any thing from you on that matter.

I have a feeling since Miguel was not part of your meet, you are now getting
back at him. Until then you had no problems with him. Its something hard to
digest. Its like Bush theory...'You are either with us or Not with us.' Btw,
if thats how you feel than we should have all the 40 thieves on one side
along with the minning lobby and builders and the other side all the Goans
who want to save Goa. I am sure you and Miguel will be on the same side
then! we are just playing into our common enemies hands by side stepping
real issue here.
I would suggest all like minded goans get together on a common platform,
leaving our differences aside and join hands to fight the bigger evil. that
is something to ponder, isn't it?.

Thats what counts and more important....as all these pics of atrocities on
our land won't serve any purpose, until we join hands to flush the bailo.
Cause all that people do here is play mud
slinging matches, nothing positive comes out at the end of the day!!

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb

From: "Rajan P. Parrikar" <parrikar at yahoo.com>
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
Soter D'Souza and I were sitting on one table and
Braganza on the other. He had made claims here
on Goanet that the Goa People's Assembly was a
plot hatched by saffron forces/BJP/Manohar Parrikar,
and that Soter had been cleverly manipulated and
controlled by me in service of the saffron lobby's
nefarious ends.
Seb dc
2008-07-01 03:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Rajan,

I may have missed this post from Miguel, which you quote below. If that were
his
exact words, I would be gald to read it, can you post the link please...

I remember your earlier post in which you had put Miguel's mobile number,
about GPA's meet at Mandovi. But as Miguel clarified later that you had
jumped the gun and posted what was actually meant for some press release.
Goanetters never heard any thing from you on that matter.

I have a feeling since Miguel was not part of your meet, you are now getting
back at him. Until then you had no problems with him. Its something hard to
digest. Its like Bush theory...'You are either with us or Not with us.' Btw,
if thats how you feel than we should have all the 40 thieves on one side
along with the minning lobby and builders and the other side all the Goans
who want to save Goa. I am sure you and Miguel will be on the same side
then! we are just playing into our common enemies hands by side stepping
real issue here.
I would suggest all like minded goans get together on a common platform,
leaving our differences aside and join hands to fight the bigger evil. that
is something to ponder, isn't it?.

Thats what counts and more important....as all these pics of atrocities on
our land won't serve any purpose, until we join hands to flush the bailo.
Cause all that people do here is play mud
slinging matches, nothing positive comes out at the end of the day!!

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb

From: "Rajan P. Parrikar" <parrikar at yahoo.com>
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
Soter D'Souza and I were sitting on one table and
Braganza on the other. He had made claims here
on Goanet that the Goa People's Assembly was a
plot hatched by saffron forces/BJP/Manohar Parrikar,
and that Soter had been cleverly manipulated and
controlled by me in service of the saffron lobby's
nefarious ends.
Seb dc
2008-07-01 03:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Rajan,

I may have missed this post from Miguel, which you quote below. If that were
his
exact words, I would be gald to read it, can you post the link please...

I remember your earlier post in which you had put Miguel's mobile number,
about GPA's meet at Mandovi. But as Miguel clarified later that you had
jumped the gun and posted what was actually meant for some press release.
Goanetters never heard any thing from you on that matter.

I have a feeling since Miguel was not part of your meet, you are now getting
back at him. Until then you had no problems with him. Its something hard to
digest. Its like Bush theory...'You are either with us or Not with us.' Btw,
if thats how you feel than we should have all the 40 thieves on one side
along with the minning lobby and builders and the other side all the Goans
who want to save Goa. I am sure you and Miguel will be on the same side
then! we are just playing into our common enemies hands by side stepping
real issue here.
I would suggest all like minded goans get together on a common platform,
leaving our differences aside and join hands to fight the bigger evil. that
is something to ponder, isn't it?.

Thats what counts and more important....as all these pics of atrocities on
our land won't serve any purpose, until we join hands to flush the bailo.
Cause all that people do here is play mud
slinging matches, nothing positive comes out at the end of the day!!

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb

From: "Rajan P. Parrikar" <parrikar at yahoo.com>
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
Soter D'Souza and I were sitting on one table and
Braganza on the other. He had made claims here
on Goanet that the Goa People's Assembly was a
plot hatched by saffron forces/BJP/Manohar Parrikar,
and that Soter had been cleverly manipulated and
controlled by me in service of the saffron lobby's
nefarious ends.
Seb dc
2008-07-01 03:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Rajan,

I may have missed this post from Miguel, which you quote below. If that were
his
exact words, I would be gald to read it, can you post the link please...

I remember your earlier post in which you had put Miguel's mobile number,
about GPA's meet at Mandovi. But as Miguel clarified later that you had
jumped the gun and posted what was actually meant for some press release.
Goanetters never heard any thing from you on that matter.

I have a feeling since Miguel was not part of your meet, you are now getting
back at him. Until then you had no problems with him. Its something hard to
digest. Its like Bush theory...'You are either with us or Not with us.' Btw,
if thats how you feel than we should have all the 40 thieves on one side
along with the minning lobby and builders and the other side all the Goans
who want to save Goa. I am sure you and Miguel will be on the same side
then! we are just playing into our common enemies hands by side stepping
real issue here.
I would suggest all like minded goans get together on a common platform,
leaving our differences aside and join hands to fight the bigger evil. that
is something to ponder, isn't it?.

Thats what counts and more important....as all these pics of atrocities on
our land won't serve any purpose, until we join hands to flush the bailo.
Cause all that people do here is play mud
slinging matches, nothing positive comes out at the end of the day!!

hAVE a nICE dAY
Seb

From: "Rajan P. Parrikar" <parrikar at yahoo.com>
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
Soter D'Souza and I were sitting on one table and
Braganza on the other. He had made claims here
on Goanet that the Goa People's Assembly was a
plot hatched by saffron forces/BJP/Manohar Parrikar,
and that Soter had been cleverly manipulated and
controlled by me in service of the saffron lobby's
nefarious ends.
JOHN MONTEIRO
2008-06-30 11:18:49 UTC
Permalink
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.

Phew, that was close, I'd be damned if I could think of anyone who would be
classified as a non-bigot on this forum, until now.

Could I be wrong? On this forum, surely!

John Monteiro

------------------------------------------
Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote: The following definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite
is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own
teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who
does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who
contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.
Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly
exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has
carefully avoided being a hypocrite. Cheers, Santosh
-----------------------------------------------






Regards
John Monteiro
Carvalho
2008-06-30 12:40:59 UTC
Permalink
--- On Mon, 6/30/08, Rajan P. Parrikar <parrikar at yahoo.com> wrote:

However,
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.
--------------------------------------------
Rajan,
I have no idea and of late only a marginal interest in who is spraying whom in Goa. To the spectator's eye there seems to be a lot of spraying going on.

Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on goanet.

regards,
selma
Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-06-30 12:41:19 UTC
Permalink
This message is in reply to Selma's (Elisabeth Carvalho) message No 2, dated
Sunday 29th Jun 2008 written as reply to Dr. Anil Desai's message on above
subject.

Selma writes while extending all the possible support to Miguel Braganza: -

Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is
unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as
offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how
you brand people on this board.

You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is,
unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.

MY REPLY TO SELMA'S MESSAGE IS:

Selma, please read what Miguel Braganza had written under subject titled: I
can't keep up with Goa's intrigues on Fri Jun 20 2008 along with my reply to
him.

Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an "addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for "Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.

And my reply to that writing was:

Goan Brahmin is broadly divided into two. One group is called Smarth (as per
terminology used by you they are also called Addve Bamonn) who are
worshipers of Lord Shiva and are affiliated to Kavle Mutt. The other group
is called Vaishnav who are worshipers of Lord Vishnu and are affiliated to
Partagal Mutt.

This being reality how come you say Manohar Parrikar is - Addvo Bamonn -
andyet you say that he is affiliated to Partagal Mutt! I think you will have
to do some more research on above information provided by you before you
confuse Selma any further.

NOW MY REPLY TO SELMA IS:

So with the above proof provided to you still want to say that - He (Miguel
Braganza) has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a statement
that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious
sensitivities. Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.

Therefore I feel what Dr. Anil Desai replied to Miguel under above subject
is appropriate and much disserved. Just don't take up for Miguel Braganza
when he is on wrong side.

Secondly Dr. Anil Desai did good thing by providing dictionary meaning of
what Bigot is.

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
Santosh Helekar
2008-06-30 19:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by JOHN MONTEIRO
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.
Please explain how. Are you sure M. F. Hussain is a postmodern moral relativist who is not a hypocrite? If he believes that Hindu Janajagruti Samiti's opinions are unreasonable, then he is a bigot.

I cannot tell who on Goanet is not a bigot according to those dictionary definitions.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2008-06-30 20:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. U. G. Barad
Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an
"addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.
Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of
Post by Dr. U. G. Barad
religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva
worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.
---------------------------------------------------
Really Dotor Barad?

Shiva and Vishnu worshipers in Goa have nothing better to be disturbed about then Miguel mistakenly saying Parriker is a Shiva worshipper? Perhaps they think so little of Parriker that neither of them want him as either a Shiva or a Vishnu worshiper.

Don't be ridiculous. Nobody thought anything about that statement until Rajan Parriker and Miguel Braganza had a falling out in some Goan cafe. Seriously, I think the Goan intelligentsia should stop hanging out at the same cafe.

Now, all of a sudden Dr Desai wakes up two weeks after the initial statement was made and tells us that he is greatly offended by Miguel's innocent slip-up. Was there any intent on Miguel's part to be insensitive? Was there any intent on Miguel's part to denigrate the Hindu religion or cause offense to Shiva or Vishnu worshipers? Was Miguel being disrespectful to either Shiva or Vishnu?

The answer to all these questions is a big fat NO. And the reason I am being so vehement about this is because it is precisely these sort of allegations that have led to so much communal discord in India. Because of our political difference, we erect religious bogeymen and then it is easy to invoke emotions, create smokescreens and cause general mayhem.

It is irresponsible behaviour gentlemen, irresponsible to the core and as citizens of India, we truly have to be ashamed of ourselves. Surely, half a century of independence should have produced betters citizens.

selma
anil desai
2008-06-30 18:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Selma wrote:
Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I
have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I
have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the
sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as
bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We
cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies
diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on
goanet.

Response:

Dear Selma,

Read my post again. I will give you a clue. The evidence is there in his
comment on Rajan's religious affiliation. If you do not understand it, ask
Miguel. I am sure he will be only too pleased to explain how offensive he
wanted to be to Rajan and not thousands but millions of other worshippers of
Lord Shiva scattered all over the world.

Quite frankly, his religious bigotry does not bother me so much. That is a
fairly common currency in almost all religions, hinduism included. His
bigoted writings on socio-political issues do bother me.

Anil Desai
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-07-01 01:42:34 UTC
Permalink
When one points a finger at someone else, there are about three fingers that point back.
?
With the definition provided, one needs to look at oneself to know if one is a bigot.
?
Trying to look for others who are bigots, may in itself be an act?of bigotry, because it implies ones desire to label?others as "unreasonable or wicked".
?
Thanks Anil for providing the definition of "bigot".? It looks like?the definition?has opened a 'can of worms'.? Kudos?to those who are doing a bit of soul-searching.? Perhaps after-all Santosh is right?? The definition of 'Bigot' was not created / invented?by Anil.? Let us not shoot the messenger.
?
Regards,?GL
?
??
--------------- Santosh Helekar

I cannot tell who on Goanet is not a bigot according to those dictionary definitions.
?
--------------- Anil Desai
?
Bigot - A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked.
?
In an extended sense, a person who is?intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or?morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
Venantius Pinto
2008-06-30 19:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,
Santosh is correct when he says "The following definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot." Note the word "hypocrite."

venantius
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:18:49 -0400
From: "JOHN MONTEIRO" <j.monteiro at btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.
Phew, that was close, I'd be damned if I could think of anyone who would be
classified as a non-bigot on this forum, until now.
Could I be wrong? On this forum, surely!
John Monteiro
------------------------------------------
Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote: The following
definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite
is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own
teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who
does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who
contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.
Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly
exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has
carefully avoided being a hypocrite. Cheers, Santosh
-----------------------------------------------
Regards
John Monteiro
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:02:49 -0400
From: "Augusto Pinto" <pintogoa at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] The Mosque in Moira
To: "Goanet" <goanet at goanet.org>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP08CAC0B19F44FFC246D35A879F0 at CEZ.ICE>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Cheers Dears
By Augusto Pinto
The Mosque in Moira
Dears,
Do you like to tittle - tattle?
No dears, you don't need to put on those solemn and pious faces and tell me
that you hate gossip and never listen to rumours. Of course you do. So do
I.
So does everyone else. There's no need to be ashamed about it. Rumours are
where you get the real masala about what's happening in the world, not the
government gazettes that masquerade as newspapers.
And most of the time, the gossip that we listen to is dead right. Okay,
maybe here and there the details go a little awry. But by and large, what
we
get through the grapevine is fairly reliable.
So why does gossip have a bad name? The reason is that when it does go
wrong
it can go spectacularly wrong. Like the time when an A. I. R. reporter
believed a rumour that the former Prime Minister of India Morarji Desai had
kicked the bucket and broadcast the news without double checking. There was
a furore when it came out that though the old urine drinker was doddering
in
his 90s - he was very much alive.
The reason why I'm bringing up this matter is to tell you a real life
incident that occurred in my wise village of Moira. Some time ago there was
a ruckus about a mosque that was coming up in the village. The information
came up in an interesting way. A truck overloaded with stones took the
turn
at Luis's bar, but unfortunately its wheels went too close to the side of
the road, which couldn't bear the weight and crumbled. The truck overturned
and crashed into the house of poor Jose D'mello below, ruining his balcao.
When the villagers asked the truck driver, who luckily escaped unhurt,
where
he was taking the stones he muttered something in Hindi about a mosque.
"Mosque? Where Mosque - they cried? There's no Mosque in Moira!" The
shocked
Moidekars went to investigate and found that the stones were being taken to
a site that hitherto was believed to be a private residence that was coming
up bang opposite the St. Sebastian chapel in Povoacao.
All hell broke loose and a debate began to rage about the pros and cons of
the mosque. One very wise Moidekar thundered," We Moidekars will never
allow
a Mosque to come up in Moira.But natural..." This sentiment was echoed by
most of the villagers, both Hindu and Christian. There was dark mutterings
about how the public would be woken up early in the morning by the call of
the Azaan over the loudspeakers.
However there were some dissenting voices. One Moidekar somewhat foolishly
opined aloud, "Why is it "but Natural" to deny Muslims the right to
practice their religion? If I mistake not the Constitution of India
guarantees such a right to all its citizens!!" He was greeted with angry
stares.
Stories began to circulate about how arms would get stashed there and how
terrorists might hide there. People began to talk about how the muezzin's
call to prayer would wake the elderly and the babies, unmindful that the
big
Church bells and the temple music did that anyway. In the meanwhile the
Panchayat decided to act before things took an ugly turn and ordered the
construction to be halted pending investigation. This helped to cool
tempers
and after a while the matter was forgotten.
A couple of months later while going on one of my walks that-a-ways with
my
big German Shepard Laskar, he stopped near the Povoacao chapel for a
sniff.
That's when I noticed that work at the alleged Mosque site was going on in
full swing.I asked myself, "What does this mean? Is a Mosque actually going
to come up here?"
The mystery was resolved by my local barman Sada, who is the de facto Panch
member (our ward is reserved for women, and his wife won).
It seems that when people questioned the truck driver, who happened to be a
Muslim, as to where he was taking the stones he replied in Hindi that he
was
taking them near the "Masjid". What he actually meant was that he was
taking
them to the place opposite the chapel - but not being a Goan, and not
knowing Konkani or at least the word for that Christian place of worship,
he
used the word "Masjid"
So what might have resulted in a communal confrontation arose simply
because
the villagers didn't care to check their facts properly, and instead
preferred to rely on rumours and conjecture.
Till next time then
Cheers (ENDS)
==============================================================================
The above article appeared in the June 25, 2008 edition of the Herald, Goa
under the title Relying On Rumours
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 05:40:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!"
<goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Message-ID: <425043.58934.qm at web33002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
However,
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.
--------------------------------------------
Rajan,
I have no idea and of late only a marginal interest in who is spraying whom
in Goa. To the spectator's eye there seems to be a lot of spraying going on.
Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I
have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I
have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the
sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as
bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We
cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies
diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on
goanet.
regards,
selma
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:11:19 +0530
From: "Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Message-ID: <4868d477.20f8720a.5ca9.7910 at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This message is in reply to Selma's (Elisabeth Carvalho) message No 2,
dated
Sunday 29th Jun 2008 written as reply to Dr. Anil Desai's message on above
subject.
Selma writes while extending all the possible support to Miguel Braganza: -
Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is
unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as
offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how
you brand people on this board.
You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is,
unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.
Selma, please read what Miguel Braganza had written under subject titled: I
can't keep up with Goa's intrigues on Fri Jun 20 2008 along with my reply
to
him.
Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an "addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for "Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.
Goan Brahmin is broadly divided into two. One group is called Smarth (as
per
terminology used by you they are also called Addve Bamonn) who are
worshipers of Lord Shiva and are affiliated to Kavle Mutt. The other group
is called Vaishnav who are worshipers of Lord Vishnu and are affiliated to
Partagal Mutt.
This being reality how come you say Manohar Parrikar is - Addvo Bamonn -
andyet you say that he is affiliated to Partagal Mutt! I think you will
have
to do some more research on above information provided by you before you
confuse Selma any further.
So with the above proof provided to you still want to say that - He (Miguel
Braganza) has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a
statement
that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious
sensitivities. Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.
Therefore I feel what Dr. Anil Desai replied to Miguel under above subject
is appropriate and much disserved. Just don't take up for Miguel Braganza
when he is on wrong side.
Secondly Dr. Anil Desai did good thing by providing dictionary meaning of
what Bigot is.
Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:19:24 +0400
From: "[Edu's World]" <edwardlopes7 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] GOAN ROAST PORK WITH BASMATI PILAF
To: "edward lopes" <edwardlopes7 at gmail.com>
<d92a73680806300619i4f802393wcef1f784c1889a0b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
*GOAN ROAST PORK WITH BASMATI PILAF*
*Servings*
*Serves 8 to 10.*
*Ingredients*
6 pounds boneless pork loin with some fat
1 dried chili pepper, with seeds
1 pasilla pepper, with seeds
1/4 teaspoon peppercorns
3 cloves
1 teaspoon cumin seeds
1/2 teaspoon turmeric
1 3-inch cinnamon stick
1 1/2-inch piece of ginger
1 whole fresh green chili pepper, roasted over an open flame and peeled
(leave seeds in pepper)
2 cups chopped cilantro leaves, washed very well and chopped
8 cloves garlic
5 tablespoons cider vinegar
1/4 cup dark rum
2 tablespoons salt
1/2 teaspoon sugar
3 cups basmati rice, picked over, washed well, and soaked in lukewarm water
for 15 minutes
1 chicken bouillon cube
3 tablespoons canola oil
1 cinnamon stick, broken into 3 or 4 pieces
4 cloves
2 bay leaves
2 medium-size onions, finely minced
3 plum tomatoes, cored and diced
Salt to taste
*Cooking Instructions*
Grind the dried chili and pasilla peppers, peppercorns, cloves, cumin,
turmeric, and cinnamon stick in a spice or coffee grinder until fine. Place
the ginger, green chili, cilantro, garlic, vinegar, rum, salt, and sugar in
a blender, and pur?e. Add the ground spices, and pulse quickly. Rub the
mixture all over the pork loin, and allow to marinate for at least 12 hours
in the refrigerator. Remove the pork from refrigerator 2 hours before
cooking.
Preheat oven to 325 degrees. Place the spice-rubbed pork loin on a rack set
in a roasting pan. Roast for approximately 1 hour and 45 minutes or until
internal temperature reaches 130 to 135 degrees on an instant-read
thermometer. Allow to rest for 20 minutes (temperature will rise another 10
degrees). Slice, and serve with Goan basmati pilaf (instructions below).
Drain the rice in a colander. Bring 5 cups water to a boil, add the
bouillon
cube, and allow it to dissolve.
Heat the oil over medium heat in a large stewpot. When it starts to
shimmer,
add the cinnamon and cloves, and heat them until they become fragrant. Add
the bay leaves and onion, and saut? until onion becomes translucent. Add
the
drained rice, and cook over medium heat for 3 to 4 minutes more, stirring
constantly. Add the boiling bouillon and the tomatoes, and season with
salt.
Continue to cook, stirring occasionally and gently, until most of the
liquid
is absorbed, about 10 minutes. Cover, remove from heat, let stand for 15 to
20 minutes, then stir gently with a roasting fork.
edu
edwardlopes7 at gmail.com
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:57:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: JoeGoaUk <joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Where in Goa is this?
To: goanet at goanet.org
Cc: goan-nri at yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <340303.87142.qm at web25906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Talking Photos: Where is this?
All about roads, railways, trains, bridges, tanks etc
To your right is this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616287228/sizes/l/
This is to your left
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2615458853/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616287518/sizes/l/
and this is from the over-bridge
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616286614/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2623453485/sizes/l/
- Not a Konkan Railway Route
Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk
for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/
For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa
__________________________________________________________
Not happy with your email address?.
Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now
at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:39:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: pramod kale <pram203 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] [Goanet-News] NEWS: Indian newspapers fall for
baroque Nazi war criminal hoax
To: goanet at goanet.org
Message-ID: <699784.78872.qm at web56013.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Come on,let's have some fun and not leave it all to Brothers Reliance.
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
From: Goanet News <news.goanet at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet-News] NEWS: Indian newspapers fall for baroque Nazi war
criminal hoax
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
To: "Goanet" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>, goanet-news at goanet.org
Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:21 PM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
**** http://www.GOANET.org ****
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to
Mon (June 30)
At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2008/06/30/indian-newspapers-fall-for-baroque-nazi-war-criminal-hoax/
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
June 30th, 2008
Indian newspapers fall for baroque Nazi war criminal hoax
Post a comment (5)
Posted by: Jonathan Allen
Tags: Critical Eye, hoaxes, India, media
You would think a press release about a German Nazi war
criminal named
Johann Bach being caught in the jungles of Goa after trying
to sell a
stolen 18th-century piano would be worth double-checking.
A reconstruction of the head of 18th-century German
composer Johann
Sebastian Bach, who is not known to have visited
Goa.Nonetheless, the
press release has been regurgitated on the front pages of
the Deccan
Herald and the Indian Express and inside the Telegraph,
citing Perus
Narkp, "the intelligence wing of the Berlin-based
German Chancellor's
Core (sic)", as the source.
Perus Narkp, a not especially Germanic name, is an anagram
of "Super Prank".
The organisation's motto, printed at the top of the
press release, is
"Eht rea enp cabk skripc" ? clearly not the
language of Goethe or
Virgil, but another anagram: "The Pen Pricks are
back".
The Pen Pricks, who run a blog skewering the Goan press,
promised
readers on Sunday they were about to break a "big,
Big, BIg, BIG"
story. It looks like they succeeded. Still, it should not
take
pranksters to remind us that gullibility is a dangerous
flaw in
journalism.
It takes Google only 0.13 seconds to establish that the
Marsha Tikash
Whanaab concentration camp at which Bach was apparently
posted does
not exist. The Express reporter, at least, telephoned the
German
embassy and Indian police for comment. The fact they had no
idea what
the reporter was talking about did not deter publication.
Only the
Times of India gave even a hint that it smelt something
fishy, but ran
a story all the same.
(I don't want to seem like I'm recklessly throwing
stones in a glass
house: no organisation is immune to occasional lapses in
journalistic
perfection, as readers of the Reuters' blog Good, Bad,
and Ugly may be
aware.)
I asked Ramakrishna Upadhya, a senior editor at the Deccan
Herald,
what might have gone wrong.
"We all believed that it was real because it had so
many details," he
said about the press release. "They should have been
cross-checked,"
he added.
He said he is investigating what happened, and that the
paper will run
a correction if necessary.
An official at the German embassy in New Delhi very
politely said they
were looking into what happened but considered it too soon
to declare
it a hoax.
I have tried to e-mail the Pen Pricks. I'll let you
know if I get any response.
Hopefully this was a singular blip and from now on we can
once again
believe every word we read in the press.
ENDS
End of Goanet Digest, Vol 3, Issue 808
**************************************
anil desai
2008-06-29 16:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Dear Goanetters,

I have been contributing to goanet for several months now and I have
expressed my concerns about bigoted views expressed by some individuals on
this forum. this should be of concern to all of us.

I quote below the dictionary definition of Bigot below:

*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]

1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]

2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.

To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.

Now consider how Miguel Braganza has been writing about the infamous VCD and
expressing his anguish about the pain felt by Catholics.

Then in a recent post he wrote thus:

Manohar Parrikar cannot be an incarnation of Vishnu. He is an
"addvo Bamonn" affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a Shiva worshipper [Hence,perhaps, Rajan
Parrikar's phallic fetish].

My response

It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion but apply to
politics as well. So, go on. Let us have more of your incoherent rants.


Anil Desai
Carvalho
2008-06-29 17:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by anil desai
It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be
profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like
myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to
know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion
------------------------------
Dear Dr Desai,

It is interesting to note that of all the bigoted, xenophobic people that abound on Goanet, you choose to admonish Miguel Branganza for being a bigot. Isn't it convenient what we find offensive in life?

Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how you brand people on this board.

You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is, unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.

selma
Carvalho
2008-06-29 18:44:03 UTC
Permalink
February 24th, 2003 was a day my husband and I celebrated being Indian. It wasn?t earmarked on our calendar for any particular reason save for the fact that we landed at Chicago bus station in the early morning of that day.

Chicago is one of the two states in the US that offers consular services for Indians and we being in need of some paperwork, had decided to take the Greyhound from Minnesota, through Wisconsin into Chicago. We ventured outside the terminal into the blistering cold of a Chicago winter morning to find ourselves amidst a sea of fellow bus-travelers who were all awaiting taxis to ferry them onwards. The probability of us finding a taxi was slim and so we braced ourselves for a long wait in the cold.

Chicago is a stark and forbidding city at the best of times, not particularly renowned for its benevolence to strangers. While my husband and I awaited with frozen fingers, toes and hearts, a taxi-cab whizzed past the crowds, swerved in front of us and offered us a ride. We were slightly embarrassed as it is not the done thing in America to bump the queue but we were desperate and jumped into the cab without asking too many questions.

The young driver was Indian. His single question to us was if we were from India, to which we replied in the affirmative. We don?t know which part of India he hailed from, presumably up North, nor do we know what prompted this young man into this act of kindness. Perhaps he felt sorry for bedraggled looking Indians standing at the bus station. Perhaps somewhere inside him was a desire to reach out and help fellow countrymen, however recessed the memory of that country and his association with it may have been.

Beyond the religiocentric and ethnocentric identities of India, there is a larger nation-centric identity that exists for us Indians and it manifests itself most emphatically when we are outside of India. Infact our largesse spreads even to Sri Lankans, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis, reveling in a certain Indian sub-continental kinship. Why then do we turn inwards and fragment so easily within the boundaries of India itself?

selma
Venantius Pinto
2008-06-29 19:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Anil,
So you are actually expressly soliciting incoherent remarks --you are
perhaps not joking?

Miguel's remark about the phallic fetish was said in context to Rajan text
where he used the word ejaculate. You know that don't you, This word along
with ejaculation has more than one meaning and is often employed as
double-entendre (double meaning, in Marathi koddea ni bolna) by those in
possession of sharp-wit. Do make an analogy between what these stalwarts
were engaging in. Miguels was a retort to Rajan. They both know what they
are saying. What purpose will it serve Anil for you to bring this up? Convey
your hurt in a way that will bring your cause understanding, rather than
applying a higher factor to it and inviting incoherent remarks. If something
really hurt me, I would say it. Now you are not me (in a way we are though
going by the highest tenets of Dharma and sangha), but still you have better
language than my feeble attempts to put things across, Its like Bush saying,
"Bring it on," which is crude and does not accomplish much by way of
bringing people together. Unless that is not the intent.

Btw, ithyphallic is a proud amd reverential term at least in Art History. It
was regarded as indecent by Victorians, as were other words that defeaned
their senses and jolted their false realities as the public face of that
society. Furthermore, there are paintings depicting the naked Christ with
exposed genitalia (conveying the aspect of becoming man), that is, before
the Christian world turned relatively prude. In the past aside from the
hedonism, ithyphallic gods like Bacchus who were considered too salacious
for timid minds and newer societies. I have not to my knowledge, come across
a Goanetter who has has regarded Shiva (Rudra, Mahesh, and his 1008 names)
in crude and crafty light.

I will not participate any further in this discussion if my views are placed
in poor light.


Venantius



Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:43:02 +0100
From: "anil desai" <anildesa at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
Dear Goanetters,
I have been contributing to goanet for several months now and I have
expressed my concerns about bigoted views expressed by some individuals on
this forum. this should be of concern to all of us.
*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the
Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]
2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing
from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.
To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.
Now consider how Miguel Braganza has been writing about the infamous VCD
and
expressing his anguish about the pain felt by Catholics.
Manohar Parrikar cannot be an incarnation of Vishnu. He is an
"addvo Bamonn" affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a Shiva worshipper [Hence,perhaps, Rajan
Parrikar's phallic fetish].
My response
It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion but apply to
politics as well. So, go on. Let us have more of your incoherent rants.
Anil Desai
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-06-30 00:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Venantius post?likely puts?Miguel's remarks in context and sheds some light.? Miguel can expand the context in which he used the remarks.
?
However even if used 'in context', the fact that those comments offended the religious sentiment of an individual or a?section of a community makes it wrong.? Just because Rajan used it in his text, does not permit another to show lack of sensitivity and good judgment.?One wrong does not justify another wrong, (intended or unintended), especially when there is no coherence to the exact point being made.
?
Goans (both Catholics and Hindus) have a very difficult time to say "I am sorry".? Permit?me to extend an unqualified apology to Anil and other Hindus for an unwarranted and crude reference to their religion.??
?
Thanks for providing the?definition of "Bigotry".? ?With that definition, one can be a bigot about ones own religion by having?"views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right," and considering contrary views "differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked".
?
Regards, GL
?
------------ Venantius Pinto

Miguel's remark about the phallic fetish was said in context to Rajan text where he used the word ejaculate. You know that don't you, ......?
Do make an analogy between what these stalwarts were engaging in. Miguels was a retort to Rajan.
Btw, ithy phallic is a proud amd reverential term at least in Art History.

--------------- anil desai
?
Bigot - A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is?intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or?morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
?
?It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly?offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa?and outside, isnt it?
Santosh Helekar
2008-06-30 05:40:03 UTC
Permalink
The following definitions ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.

Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has carefully avoided being a hypocrite.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by anil desai
*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name
once given to the Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a
whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to
terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the
same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]
2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters
of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to
or differing from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a
person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in
politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own
church, party,
belief, or opinion.
To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and
believe. --Macaulay.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-06-30 06:57:52 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Carvalho
Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT.
Miguel Braganza's many instances of bigotry against
bamons are to be found in the Goanet archives. Selma
Cardozo seems to have taken pains to deceive herself
before deceiving others. Perplexing, for someone who
makes a song & dance about her own integrity.

But Miguel Braganza is much more than a vanilla bigot.
He is a purveyor of falsehoods, and a coward to boot.
To cite but one instance: he reported on Goanet some
days back that I verbally abused him at Cafe Prakash.
Guilty as charged. It was a great pleasure. However,
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.

Soter D'Souza and I were sitting on one table and
Braganza on the other. He had made claims here
on Goanet that the Goa People's Assembly was a
plot hatched by saffron forces/BJP/Manohar Parrikar,
and that Soter had been cleverly manipulated and
controlled by me in service of the saffron lobby's
nefarious ends.

Now that the principals - Soter and I - in this alleged
conspiracy were all in one room, I asked Miguel
Braganza to lay out his evidence for the claims
he had publicly made. He had nothing to show.
Nada. Shoonya. Zifr. All we got were strange
sounds like "Bup. Bup. Glug. Glug." The tiger behind
the keyboard and in the safety of his home had
suddenly turned into a mouse. It was then that
Soter and I both administered to him a verbal
shower laced with invective. He was back the
next morning on Goanet bawling like a baby,
with more of his Looney Tunes.

That's Miguel Braganza for you. Now back to
the regularly scheduled programming.

Warm regards,


r
JOHN MONTEIRO
2008-06-30 11:18:49 UTC
Permalink
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.

Phew, that was close, I'd be damned if I could think of anyone who would be
classified as a non-bigot on this forum, until now.

Could I be wrong? On this forum, surely!

John Monteiro

------------------------------------------
Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote: The following definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite
is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own
teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who
does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who
contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.
Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly
exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has
carefully avoided being a hypocrite. Cheers, Santosh
-----------------------------------------------






Regards
John Monteiro
Carvalho
2008-06-30 12:40:59 UTC
Permalink
--- On Mon, 6/30/08, Rajan P. Parrikar <parrikar at yahoo.com> wrote:

However,
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.
--------------------------------------------
Rajan,
I have no idea and of late only a marginal interest in who is spraying whom in Goa. To the spectator's eye there seems to be a lot of spraying going on.

Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on goanet.

regards,
selma
Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-06-30 12:41:19 UTC
Permalink
This message is in reply to Selma's (Elisabeth Carvalho) message No 2, dated
Sunday 29th Jun 2008 written as reply to Dr. Anil Desai's message on above
subject.

Selma writes while extending all the possible support to Miguel Braganza: -

Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is
unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as
offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how
you brand people on this board.

You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is,
unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.

MY REPLY TO SELMA'S MESSAGE IS:

Selma, please read what Miguel Braganza had written under subject titled: I
can't keep up with Goa's intrigues on Fri Jun 20 2008 along with my reply to
him.

Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an "addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for "Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.

And my reply to that writing was:

Goan Brahmin is broadly divided into two. One group is called Smarth (as per
terminology used by you they are also called Addve Bamonn) who are
worshipers of Lord Shiva and are affiliated to Kavle Mutt. The other group
is called Vaishnav who are worshipers of Lord Vishnu and are affiliated to
Partagal Mutt.

This being reality how come you say Manohar Parrikar is - Addvo Bamonn -
andyet you say that he is affiliated to Partagal Mutt! I think you will have
to do some more research on above information provided by you before you
confuse Selma any further.

NOW MY REPLY TO SELMA IS:

So with the above proof provided to you still want to say that - He (Miguel
Braganza) has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a statement
that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious
sensitivities. Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.

Therefore I feel what Dr. Anil Desai replied to Miguel under above subject
is appropriate and much disserved. Just don't take up for Miguel Braganza
when he is on wrong side.

Secondly Dr. Anil Desai did good thing by providing dictionary meaning of
what Bigot is.

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
Santosh Helekar
2008-06-30 19:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by JOHN MONTEIRO
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.
Please explain how. Are you sure M. F. Hussain is a postmodern moral relativist who is not a hypocrite? If he believes that Hindu Janajagruti Samiti's opinions are unreasonable, then he is a bigot.

I cannot tell who on Goanet is not a bigot according to those dictionary definitions.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2008-06-30 20:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. U. G. Barad
Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an
"addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.
Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of
Post by Dr. U. G. Barad
religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva
worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.
---------------------------------------------------
Really Dotor Barad?

Shiva and Vishnu worshipers in Goa have nothing better to be disturbed about then Miguel mistakenly saying Parriker is a Shiva worshipper? Perhaps they think so little of Parriker that neither of them want him as either a Shiva or a Vishnu worshiper.

Don't be ridiculous. Nobody thought anything about that statement until Rajan Parriker and Miguel Braganza had a falling out in some Goan cafe. Seriously, I think the Goan intelligentsia should stop hanging out at the same cafe.

Now, all of a sudden Dr Desai wakes up two weeks after the initial statement was made and tells us that he is greatly offended by Miguel's innocent slip-up. Was there any intent on Miguel's part to be insensitive? Was there any intent on Miguel's part to denigrate the Hindu religion or cause offense to Shiva or Vishnu worshipers? Was Miguel being disrespectful to either Shiva or Vishnu?

The answer to all these questions is a big fat NO. And the reason I am being so vehement about this is because it is precisely these sort of allegations that have led to so much communal discord in India. Because of our political difference, we erect religious bogeymen and then it is easy to invoke emotions, create smokescreens and cause general mayhem.

It is irresponsible behaviour gentlemen, irresponsible to the core and as citizens of India, we truly have to be ashamed of ourselves. Surely, half a century of independence should have produced betters citizens.

selma
anil desai
2008-06-30 18:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Selma wrote:
Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I
have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I
have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the
sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as
bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We
cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies
diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on
goanet.

Response:

Dear Selma,

Read my post again. I will give you a clue. The evidence is there in his
comment on Rajan's religious affiliation. If you do not understand it, ask
Miguel. I am sure he will be only too pleased to explain how offensive he
wanted to be to Rajan and not thousands but millions of other worshippers of
Lord Shiva scattered all over the world.

Quite frankly, his religious bigotry does not bother me so much. That is a
fairly common currency in almost all religions, hinduism included. His
bigoted writings on socio-political issues do bother me.

Anil Desai
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-07-01 01:42:34 UTC
Permalink
When one points a finger at someone else, there are about three fingers that point back.
?
With the definition provided, one needs to look at oneself to know if one is a bigot.
?
Trying to look for others who are bigots, may in itself be an act?of bigotry, because it implies ones desire to label?others as "unreasonable or wicked".
?
Thanks Anil for providing the definition of "bigot".? It looks like?the definition?has opened a 'can of worms'.? Kudos?to those who are doing a bit of soul-searching.? Perhaps after-all Santosh is right?? The definition of 'Bigot' was not created / invented?by Anil.? Let us not shoot the messenger.
?
Regards,?GL
?
??
--------------- Santosh Helekar

I cannot tell who on Goanet is not a bigot according to those dictionary definitions.
?
--------------- Anil Desai
?
Bigot - A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked.
?
In an extended sense, a person who is?intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or?morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
Venantius Pinto
2008-06-30 19:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,
Santosh is correct when he says "The following definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot." Note the word "hypocrite."

venantius
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:18:49 -0400
From: "JOHN MONTEIRO" <j.monteiro at btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.
Phew, that was close, I'd be damned if I could think of anyone who would be
classified as a non-bigot on this forum, until now.
Could I be wrong? On this forum, surely!
John Monteiro
------------------------------------------
Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote: The following
definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite
is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own
teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who
does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who
contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.
Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly
exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has
carefully avoided being a hypocrite. Cheers, Santosh
-----------------------------------------------
Regards
John Monteiro
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:02:49 -0400
From: "Augusto Pinto" <pintogoa at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] The Mosque in Moira
To: "Goanet" <goanet at goanet.org>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP08CAC0B19F44FFC246D35A879F0 at CEZ.ICE>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Cheers Dears
By Augusto Pinto
The Mosque in Moira
Dears,
Do you like to tittle - tattle?
No dears, you don't need to put on those solemn and pious faces and tell me
that you hate gossip and never listen to rumours. Of course you do. So do
I.
So does everyone else. There's no need to be ashamed about it. Rumours are
where you get the real masala about what's happening in the world, not the
government gazettes that masquerade as newspapers.
And most of the time, the gossip that we listen to is dead right. Okay,
maybe here and there the details go a little awry. But by and large, what
we
get through the grapevine is fairly reliable.
So why does gossip have a bad name? The reason is that when it does go
wrong
it can go spectacularly wrong. Like the time when an A. I. R. reporter
believed a rumour that the former Prime Minister of India Morarji Desai had
kicked the bucket and broadcast the news without double checking. There was
a furore when it came out that though the old urine drinker was doddering
in
his 90s - he was very much alive.
The reason why I'm bringing up this matter is to tell you a real life
incident that occurred in my wise village of Moira. Some time ago there was
a ruckus about a mosque that was coming up in the village. The information
came up in an interesting way. A truck overloaded with stones took the
turn
at Luis's bar, but unfortunately its wheels went too close to the side of
the road, which couldn't bear the weight and crumbled. The truck overturned
and crashed into the house of poor Jose D'mello below, ruining his balcao.
When the villagers asked the truck driver, who luckily escaped unhurt,
where
he was taking the stones he muttered something in Hindi about a mosque.
"Mosque? Where Mosque - they cried? There's no Mosque in Moira!" The
shocked
Moidekars went to investigate and found that the stones were being taken to
a site that hitherto was believed to be a private residence that was coming
up bang opposite the St. Sebastian chapel in Povoacao.
All hell broke loose and a debate began to rage about the pros and cons of
the mosque. One very wise Moidekar thundered," We Moidekars will never
allow
a Mosque to come up in Moira.But natural..." This sentiment was echoed by
most of the villagers, both Hindu and Christian. There was dark mutterings
about how the public would be woken up early in the morning by the call of
the Azaan over the loudspeakers.
However there were some dissenting voices. One Moidekar somewhat foolishly
opined aloud, "Why is it "but Natural" to deny Muslims the right to
practice their religion? If I mistake not the Constitution of India
guarantees such a right to all its citizens!!" He was greeted with angry
stares.
Stories began to circulate about how arms would get stashed there and how
terrorists might hide there. People began to talk about how the muezzin's
call to prayer would wake the elderly and the babies, unmindful that the
big
Church bells and the temple music did that anyway. In the meanwhile the
Panchayat decided to act before things took an ugly turn and ordered the
construction to be halted pending investigation. This helped to cool
tempers
and after a while the matter was forgotten.
A couple of months later while going on one of my walks that-a-ways with
my
big German Shepard Laskar, he stopped near the Povoacao chapel for a
sniff.
That's when I noticed that work at the alleged Mosque site was going on in
full swing.I asked myself, "What does this mean? Is a Mosque actually going
to come up here?"
The mystery was resolved by my local barman Sada, who is the de facto Panch
member (our ward is reserved for women, and his wife won).
It seems that when people questioned the truck driver, who happened to be a
Muslim, as to where he was taking the stones he replied in Hindi that he
was
taking them near the "Masjid". What he actually meant was that he was
taking
them to the place opposite the chapel - but not being a Goan, and not
knowing Konkani or at least the word for that Christian place of worship,
he
used the word "Masjid"
So what might have resulted in a communal confrontation arose simply
because
the villagers didn't care to check their facts properly, and instead
preferred to rely on rumours and conjecture.
Till next time then
Cheers (ENDS)
==============================================================================
The above article appeared in the June 25, 2008 edition of the Herald, Goa
under the title Relying On Rumours
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 05:40:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!"
<goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Message-ID: <425043.58934.qm at web33002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
However,
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.
--------------------------------------------
Rajan,
I have no idea and of late only a marginal interest in who is spraying whom
in Goa. To the spectator's eye there seems to be a lot of spraying going on.
Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I
have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I
have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the
sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as
bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We
cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies
diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on
goanet.
regards,
selma
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:11:19 +0530
From: "Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Message-ID: <4868d477.20f8720a.5ca9.7910 at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This message is in reply to Selma's (Elisabeth Carvalho) message No 2,
dated
Sunday 29th Jun 2008 written as reply to Dr. Anil Desai's message on above
subject.
Selma writes while extending all the possible support to Miguel Braganza: -
Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is
unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as
offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how
you brand people on this board.
You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is,
unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.
Selma, please read what Miguel Braganza had written under subject titled: I
can't keep up with Goa's intrigues on Fri Jun 20 2008 along with my reply
to
him.
Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an "addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for "Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.
Goan Brahmin is broadly divided into two. One group is called Smarth (as
per
terminology used by you they are also called Addve Bamonn) who are
worshipers of Lord Shiva and are affiliated to Kavle Mutt. The other group
is called Vaishnav who are worshipers of Lord Vishnu and are affiliated to
Partagal Mutt.
This being reality how come you say Manohar Parrikar is - Addvo Bamonn -
andyet you say that he is affiliated to Partagal Mutt! I think you will
have
to do some more research on above information provided by you before you
confuse Selma any further.
So with the above proof provided to you still want to say that - He (Miguel
Braganza) has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a
statement
that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious
sensitivities. Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.
Therefore I feel what Dr. Anil Desai replied to Miguel under above subject
is appropriate and much disserved. Just don't take up for Miguel Braganza
when he is on wrong side.
Secondly Dr. Anil Desai did good thing by providing dictionary meaning of
what Bigot is.
Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:19:24 +0400
From: "[Edu's World]" <edwardlopes7 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] GOAN ROAST PORK WITH BASMATI PILAF
To: "edward lopes" <edwardlopes7 at gmail.com>
<d92a73680806300619i4f802393wcef1f784c1889a0b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
*GOAN ROAST PORK WITH BASMATI PILAF*
*Servings*
*Serves 8 to 10.*
*Ingredients*
6 pounds boneless pork loin with some fat
1 dried chili pepper, with seeds
1 pasilla pepper, with seeds
1/4 teaspoon peppercorns
3 cloves
1 teaspoon cumin seeds
1/2 teaspoon turmeric
1 3-inch cinnamon stick
1 1/2-inch piece of ginger
1 whole fresh green chili pepper, roasted over an open flame and peeled
(leave seeds in pepper)
2 cups chopped cilantro leaves, washed very well and chopped
8 cloves garlic
5 tablespoons cider vinegar
1/4 cup dark rum
2 tablespoons salt
1/2 teaspoon sugar
3 cups basmati rice, picked over, washed well, and soaked in lukewarm water
for 15 minutes
1 chicken bouillon cube
3 tablespoons canola oil
1 cinnamon stick, broken into 3 or 4 pieces
4 cloves
2 bay leaves
2 medium-size onions, finely minced
3 plum tomatoes, cored and diced
Salt to taste
*Cooking Instructions*
Grind the dried chili and pasilla peppers, peppercorns, cloves, cumin,
turmeric, and cinnamon stick in a spice or coffee grinder until fine. Place
the ginger, green chili, cilantro, garlic, vinegar, rum, salt, and sugar in
a blender, and pur?e. Add the ground spices, and pulse quickly. Rub the
mixture all over the pork loin, and allow to marinate for at least 12 hours
in the refrigerator. Remove the pork from refrigerator 2 hours before
cooking.
Preheat oven to 325 degrees. Place the spice-rubbed pork loin on a rack set
in a roasting pan. Roast for approximately 1 hour and 45 minutes or until
internal temperature reaches 130 to 135 degrees on an instant-read
thermometer. Allow to rest for 20 minutes (temperature will rise another 10
degrees). Slice, and serve with Goan basmati pilaf (instructions below).
Drain the rice in a colander. Bring 5 cups water to a boil, add the
bouillon
cube, and allow it to dissolve.
Heat the oil over medium heat in a large stewpot. When it starts to
shimmer,
add the cinnamon and cloves, and heat them until they become fragrant. Add
the bay leaves and onion, and saut? until onion becomes translucent. Add
the
drained rice, and cook over medium heat for 3 to 4 minutes more, stirring
constantly. Add the boiling bouillon and the tomatoes, and season with
salt.
Continue to cook, stirring occasionally and gently, until most of the
liquid
is absorbed, about 10 minutes. Cover, remove from heat, let stand for 15 to
20 minutes, then stir gently with a roasting fork.
edu
edwardlopes7 at gmail.com
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:57:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: JoeGoaUk <joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Where in Goa is this?
To: goanet at goanet.org
Cc: goan-nri at yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <340303.87142.qm at web25906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Talking Photos: Where is this?
All about roads, railways, trains, bridges, tanks etc
To your right is this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616287228/sizes/l/
This is to your left
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2615458853/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616287518/sizes/l/
and this is from the over-bridge
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616286614/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2623453485/sizes/l/
- Not a Konkan Railway Route
Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk
for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/
For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa
__________________________________________________________
Not happy with your email address?.
Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now
at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:39:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: pramod kale <pram203 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] [Goanet-News] NEWS: Indian newspapers fall for
baroque Nazi war criminal hoax
To: goanet at goanet.org
Message-ID: <699784.78872.qm at web56013.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Come on,let's have some fun and not leave it all to Brothers Reliance.
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
From: Goanet News <news.goanet at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet-News] NEWS: Indian newspapers fall for baroque Nazi war
criminal hoax
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
To: "Goanet" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>, goanet-news at goanet.org
Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:21 PM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
**** http://www.GOANET.org ****
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to
Mon (June 30)
At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2008/06/30/indian-newspapers-fall-for-baroque-nazi-war-criminal-hoax/
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
June 30th, 2008
Indian newspapers fall for baroque Nazi war criminal hoax
Post a comment (5)
Posted by: Jonathan Allen
Tags: Critical Eye, hoaxes, India, media
You would think a press release about a German Nazi war
criminal named
Johann Bach being caught in the jungles of Goa after trying
to sell a
stolen 18th-century piano would be worth double-checking.
A reconstruction of the head of 18th-century German
composer Johann
Sebastian Bach, who is not known to have visited
Goa.Nonetheless, the
press release has been regurgitated on the front pages of
the Deccan
Herald and the Indian Express and inside the Telegraph,
citing Perus
Narkp, "the intelligence wing of the Berlin-based
German Chancellor's
Core (sic)", as the source.
Perus Narkp, a not especially Germanic name, is an anagram
of "Super Prank".
The organisation's motto, printed at the top of the
press release, is
"Eht rea enp cabk skripc" ? clearly not the
language of Goethe or
Virgil, but another anagram: "The Pen Pricks are
back".
The Pen Pricks, who run a blog skewering the Goan press,
promised
readers on Sunday they were about to break a "big,
Big, BIg, BIG"
story. It looks like they succeeded. Still, it should not
take
pranksters to remind us that gullibility is a dangerous
flaw in
journalism.
It takes Google only 0.13 seconds to establish that the
Marsha Tikash
Whanaab concentration camp at which Bach was apparently
posted does
not exist. The Express reporter, at least, telephoned the
German
embassy and Indian police for comment. The fact they had no
idea what
the reporter was talking about did not deter publication.
Only the
Times of India gave even a hint that it smelt something
fishy, but ran
a story all the same.
(I don't want to seem like I'm recklessly throwing
stones in a glass
house: no organisation is immune to occasional lapses in
journalistic
perfection, as readers of the Reuters' blog Good, Bad,
and Ugly may be
aware.)
I asked Ramakrishna Upadhya, a senior editor at the Deccan
Herald,
what might have gone wrong.
"We all believed that it was real because it had so
many details," he
said about the press release. "They should have been
cross-checked,"
he added.
He said he is investigating what happened, and that the
paper will run
a correction if necessary.
An official at the German embassy in New Delhi very
politely said they
were looking into what happened but considered it too soon
to declare
it a hoax.
I have tried to e-mail the Pen Pricks. I'll let you
know if I get any response.
Hopefully this was a singular blip and from now on we can
once again
believe every word we read in the press.
ENDS
End of Goanet Digest, Vol 3, Issue 808
**************************************
anil desai
2008-06-29 16:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Dear Goanetters,

I have been contributing to goanet for several months now and I have
expressed my concerns about bigoted views expressed by some individuals on
this forum. this should be of concern to all of us.

I quote below the dictionary definition of Bigot below:

*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]

1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]

2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.

To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.

Now consider how Miguel Braganza has been writing about the infamous VCD and
expressing his anguish about the pain felt by Catholics.

Then in a recent post he wrote thus:

Manohar Parrikar cannot be an incarnation of Vishnu. He is an
"addvo Bamonn" affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a Shiva worshipper [Hence,perhaps, Rajan
Parrikar's phallic fetish].

My response

It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion but apply to
politics as well. So, go on. Let us have more of your incoherent rants.


Anil Desai
Carvalho
2008-06-29 17:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by anil desai
It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be
profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like
myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to
know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion
------------------------------
Dear Dr Desai,

It is interesting to note that of all the bigoted, xenophobic people that abound on Goanet, you choose to admonish Miguel Branganza for being a bigot. Isn't it convenient what we find offensive in life?

Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how you brand people on this board.

You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is, unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.

selma
Carvalho
2008-06-29 18:44:03 UTC
Permalink
February 24th, 2003 was a day my husband and I celebrated being Indian. It wasn?t earmarked on our calendar for any particular reason save for the fact that we landed at Chicago bus station in the early morning of that day.

Chicago is one of the two states in the US that offers consular services for Indians and we being in need of some paperwork, had decided to take the Greyhound from Minnesota, through Wisconsin into Chicago. We ventured outside the terminal into the blistering cold of a Chicago winter morning to find ourselves amidst a sea of fellow bus-travelers who were all awaiting taxis to ferry them onwards. The probability of us finding a taxi was slim and so we braced ourselves for a long wait in the cold.

Chicago is a stark and forbidding city at the best of times, not particularly renowned for its benevolence to strangers. While my husband and I awaited with frozen fingers, toes and hearts, a taxi-cab whizzed past the crowds, swerved in front of us and offered us a ride. We were slightly embarrassed as it is not the done thing in America to bump the queue but we were desperate and jumped into the cab without asking too many questions.

The young driver was Indian. His single question to us was if we were from India, to which we replied in the affirmative. We don?t know which part of India he hailed from, presumably up North, nor do we know what prompted this young man into this act of kindness. Perhaps he felt sorry for bedraggled looking Indians standing at the bus station. Perhaps somewhere inside him was a desire to reach out and help fellow countrymen, however recessed the memory of that country and his association with it may have been.

Beyond the religiocentric and ethnocentric identities of India, there is a larger nation-centric identity that exists for us Indians and it manifests itself most emphatically when we are outside of India. Infact our largesse spreads even to Sri Lankans, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis, reveling in a certain Indian sub-continental kinship. Why then do we turn inwards and fragment so easily within the boundaries of India itself?

selma
Venantius Pinto
2008-06-29 19:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Anil,
So you are actually expressly soliciting incoherent remarks --you are
perhaps not joking?

Miguel's remark about the phallic fetish was said in context to Rajan text
where he used the word ejaculate. You know that don't you, This word along
with ejaculation has more than one meaning and is often employed as
double-entendre (double meaning, in Marathi koddea ni bolna) by those in
possession of sharp-wit. Do make an analogy between what these stalwarts
were engaging in. Miguels was a retort to Rajan. They both know what they
are saying. What purpose will it serve Anil for you to bring this up? Convey
your hurt in a way that will bring your cause understanding, rather than
applying a higher factor to it and inviting incoherent remarks. If something
really hurt me, I would say it. Now you are not me (in a way we are though
going by the highest tenets of Dharma and sangha), but still you have better
language than my feeble attempts to put things across, Its like Bush saying,
"Bring it on," which is crude and does not accomplish much by way of
bringing people together. Unless that is not the intent.

Btw, ithyphallic is a proud amd reverential term at least in Art History. It
was regarded as indecent by Victorians, as were other words that defeaned
their senses and jolted their false realities as the public face of that
society. Furthermore, there are paintings depicting the naked Christ with
exposed genitalia (conveying the aspect of becoming man), that is, before
the Christian world turned relatively prude. In the past aside from the
hedonism, ithyphallic gods like Bacchus who were considered too salacious
for timid minds and newer societies. I have not to my knowledge, come across
a Goanetter who has has regarded Shiva (Rudra, Mahesh, and his 1008 names)
in crude and crafty light.

I will not participate any further in this discussion if my views are placed
in poor light.


Venantius



Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:43:02 +0100
From: "anil desai" <anildesa at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
Dear Goanetters,
I have been contributing to goanet for several months now and I have
expressed my concerns about bigoted views expressed by some individuals on
this forum. this should be of concern to all of us.
*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the
Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]
2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing
from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.
To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.
Now consider how Miguel Braganza has been writing about the infamous VCD
and
expressing his anguish about the pain felt by Catholics.
Manohar Parrikar cannot be an incarnation of Vishnu. He is an
"addvo Bamonn" affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a Shiva worshipper [Hence,perhaps, Rajan
Parrikar's phallic fetish].
My response
It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion but apply to
politics as well. So, go on. Let us have more of your incoherent rants.
Anil Desai
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-06-30 00:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Venantius post?likely puts?Miguel's remarks in context and sheds some light.? Miguel can expand the context in which he used the remarks.
?
However even if used 'in context', the fact that those comments offended the religious sentiment of an individual or a?section of a community makes it wrong.? Just because Rajan used it in his text, does not permit another to show lack of sensitivity and good judgment.?One wrong does not justify another wrong, (intended or unintended), especially when there is no coherence to the exact point being made.
?
Goans (both Catholics and Hindus) have a very difficult time to say "I am sorry".? Permit?me to extend an unqualified apology to Anil and other Hindus for an unwarranted and crude reference to their religion.??
?
Thanks for providing the?definition of "Bigotry".? ?With that definition, one can be a bigot about ones own religion by having?"views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right," and considering contrary views "differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked".
?
Regards, GL
?
------------ Venantius Pinto

Miguel's remark about the phallic fetish was said in context to Rajan text where he used the word ejaculate. You know that don't you, ......?
Do make an analogy between what these stalwarts were engaging in. Miguels was a retort to Rajan.
Btw, ithy phallic is a proud amd reverential term at least in Art History.

--------------- anil desai
?
Bigot - A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is?intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or?morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
?
?It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly?offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa?and outside, isnt it?
Santosh Helekar
2008-06-30 05:40:03 UTC
Permalink
The following definitions ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.

Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has carefully avoided being a hypocrite.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by anil desai
*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name
once given to the Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a
whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to
terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the
same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]
2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters
of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to
or differing from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a
person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in
politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own
church, party,
belief, or opinion.
To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and
believe. --Macaulay.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-06-30 06:57:52 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Carvalho
Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT.
Miguel Braganza's many instances of bigotry against
bamons are to be found in the Goanet archives. Selma
Cardozo seems to have taken pains to deceive herself
before deceiving others. Perplexing, for someone who
makes a song & dance about her own integrity.

But Miguel Braganza is much more than a vanilla bigot.
He is a purveyor of falsehoods, and a coward to boot.
To cite but one instance: he reported on Goanet some
days back that I verbally abused him at Cafe Prakash.
Guilty as charged. It was a great pleasure. However,
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.

Soter D'Souza and I were sitting on one table and
Braganza on the other. He had made claims here
on Goanet that the Goa People's Assembly was a
plot hatched by saffron forces/BJP/Manohar Parrikar,
and that Soter had been cleverly manipulated and
controlled by me in service of the saffron lobby's
nefarious ends.

Now that the principals - Soter and I - in this alleged
conspiracy were all in one room, I asked Miguel
Braganza to lay out his evidence for the claims
he had publicly made. He had nothing to show.
Nada. Shoonya. Zifr. All we got were strange
sounds like "Bup. Bup. Glug. Glug." The tiger behind
the keyboard and in the safety of his home had
suddenly turned into a mouse. It was then that
Soter and I both administered to him a verbal
shower laced with invective. He was back the
next morning on Goanet bawling like a baby,
with more of his Looney Tunes.

That's Miguel Braganza for you. Now back to
the regularly scheduled programming.

Warm regards,


r
JOHN MONTEIRO
2008-06-30 11:18:49 UTC
Permalink
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.

Phew, that was close, I'd be damned if I could think of anyone who would be
classified as a non-bigot on this forum, until now.

Could I be wrong? On this forum, surely!

John Monteiro

------------------------------------------
Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote: The following definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite
is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own
teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who
does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who
contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.
Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly
exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has
carefully avoided being a hypocrite. Cheers, Santosh
-----------------------------------------------






Regards
John Monteiro
Carvalho
2008-06-30 12:40:59 UTC
Permalink
--- On Mon, 6/30/08, Rajan P. Parrikar <parrikar at yahoo.com> wrote:

However,
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.
--------------------------------------------
Rajan,
I have no idea and of late only a marginal interest in who is spraying whom in Goa. To the spectator's eye there seems to be a lot of spraying going on.

Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on goanet.

regards,
selma
Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-06-30 12:41:19 UTC
Permalink
This message is in reply to Selma's (Elisabeth Carvalho) message No 2, dated
Sunday 29th Jun 2008 written as reply to Dr. Anil Desai's message on above
subject.

Selma writes while extending all the possible support to Miguel Braganza: -

Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is
unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as
offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how
you brand people on this board.

You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is,
unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.

MY REPLY TO SELMA'S MESSAGE IS:

Selma, please read what Miguel Braganza had written under subject titled: I
can't keep up with Goa's intrigues on Fri Jun 20 2008 along with my reply to
him.

Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an "addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for "Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.

And my reply to that writing was:

Goan Brahmin is broadly divided into two. One group is called Smarth (as per
terminology used by you they are also called Addve Bamonn) who are
worshipers of Lord Shiva and are affiliated to Kavle Mutt. The other group
is called Vaishnav who are worshipers of Lord Vishnu and are affiliated to
Partagal Mutt.

This being reality how come you say Manohar Parrikar is - Addvo Bamonn -
andyet you say that he is affiliated to Partagal Mutt! I think you will have
to do some more research on above information provided by you before you
confuse Selma any further.

NOW MY REPLY TO SELMA IS:

So with the above proof provided to you still want to say that - He (Miguel
Braganza) has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a statement
that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious
sensitivities. Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.

Therefore I feel what Dr. Anil Desai replied to Miguel under above subject
is appropriate and much disserved. Just don't take up for Miguel Braganza
when he is on wrong side.

Secondly Dr. Anil Desai did good thing by providing dictionary meaning of
what Bigot is.

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
Santosh Helekar
2008-06-30 19:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by JOHN MONTEIRO
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.
Please explain how. Are you sure M. F. Hussain is a postmodern moral relativist who is not a hypocrite? If he believes that Hindu Janajagruti Samiti's opinions are unreasonable, then he is a bigot.

I cannot tell who on Goanet is not a bigot according to those dictionary definitions.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2008-06-30 20:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. U. G. Barad
Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an
"addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.
Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of
Post by Dr. U. G. Barad
religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva
worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.
---------------------------------------------------
Really Dotor Barad?

Shiva and Vishnu worshipers in Goa have nothing better to be disturbed about then Miguel mistakenly saying Parriker is a Shiva worshipper? Perhaps they think so little of Parriker that neither of them want him as either a Shiva or a Vishnu worshiper.

Don't be ridiculous. Nobody thought anything about that statement until Rajan Parriker and Miguel Braganza had a falling out in some Goan cafe. Seriously, I think the Goan intelligentsia should stop hanging out at the same cafe.

Now, all of a sudden Dr Desai wakes up two weeks after the initial statement was made and tells us that he is greatly offended by Miguel's innocent slip-up. Was there any intent on Miguel's part to be insensitive? Was there any intent on Miguel's part to denigrate the Hindu religion or cause offense to Shiva or Vishnu worshipers? Was Miguel being disrespectful to either Shiva or Vishnu?

The answer to all these questions is a big fat NO. And the reason I am being so vehement about this is because it is precisely these sort of allegations that have led to so much communal discord in India. Because of our political difference, we erect religious bogeymen and then it is easy to invoke emotions, create smokescreens and cause general mayhem.

It is irresponsible behaviour gentlemen, irresponsible to the core and as citizens of India, we truly have to be ashamed of ourselves. Surely, half a century of independence should have produced betters citizens.

selma
anil desai
2008-06-30 18:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Selma wrote:
Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I
have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I
have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the
sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as
bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We
cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies
diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on
goanet.

Response:

Dear Selma,

Read my post again. I will give you a clue. The evidence is there in his
comment on Rajan's religious affiliation. If you do not understand it, ask
Miguel. I am sure he will be only too pleased to explain how offensive he
wanted to be to Rajan and not thousands but millions of other worshippers of
Lord Shiva scattered all over the world.

Quite frankly, his religious bigotry does not bother me so much. That is a
fairly common currency in almost all religions, hinduism included. His
bigoted writings on socio-political issues do bother me.

Anil Desai
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-07-01 01:42:34 UTC
Permalink
When one points a finger at someone else, there are about three fingers that point back.
?
With the definition provided, one needs to look at oneself to know if one is a bigot.
?
Trying to look for others who are bigots, may in itself be an act?of bigotry, because it implies ones desire to label?others as "unreasonable or wicked".
?
Thanks Anil for providing the definition of "bigot".? It looks like?the definition?has opened a 'can of worms'.? Kudos?to those who are doing a bit of soul-searching.? Perhaps after-all Santosh is right?? The definition of 'Bigot' was not created / invented?by Anil.? Let us not shoot the messenger.
?
Regards,?GL
?
??
--------------- Santosh Helekar

I cannot tell who on Goanet is not a bigot according to those dictionary definitions.
?
--------------- Anil Desai
?
Bigot - A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked.
?
In an extended sense, a person who is?intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or?morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
Venantius Pinto
2008-06-30 19:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,
Santosh is correct when he says "The following definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot." Note the word "hypocrite."

venantius
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:18:49 -0400
From: "JOHN MONTEIRO" <j.monteiro at btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.
Phew, that was close, I'd be damned if I could think of anyone who would be
classified as a non-bigot on this forum, until now.
Could I be wrong? On this forum, surely!
John Monteiro
------------------------------------------
Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote: The following
definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite
is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own
teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who
does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who
contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.
Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly
exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has
carefully avoided being a hypocrite. Cheers, Santosh
-----------------------------------------------
Regards
John Monteiro
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:02:49 -0400
From: "Augusto Pinto" <pintogoa at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] The Mosque in Moira
To: "Goanet" <goanet at goanet.org>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP08CAC0B19F44FFC246D35A879F0 at CEZ.ICE>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Cheers Dears
By Augusto Pinto
The Mosque in Moira
Dears,
Do you like to tittle - tattle?
No dears, you don't need to put on those solemn and pious faces and tell me
that you hate gossip and never listen to rumours. Of course you do. So do
I.
So does everyone else. There's no need to be ashamed about it. Rumours are
where you get the real masala about what's happening in the world, not the
government gazettes that masquerade as newspapers.
And most of the time, the gossip that we listen to is dead right. Okay,
maybe here and there the details go a little awry. But by and large, what
we
get through the grapevine is fairly reliable.
So why does gossip have a bad name? The reason is that when it does go
wrong
it can go spectacularly wrong. Like the time when an A. I. R. reporter
believed a rumour that the former Prime Minister of India Morarji Desai had
kicked the bucket and broadcast the news without double checking. There was
a furore when it came out that though the old urine drinker was doddering
in
his 90s - he was very much alive.
The reason why I'm bringing up this matter is to tell you a real life
incident that occurred in my wise village of Moira. Some time ago there was
a ruckus about a mosque that was coming up in the village. The information
came up in an interesting way. A truck overloaded with stones took the
turn
at Luis's bar, but unfortunately its wheels went too close to the side of
the road, which couldn't bear the weight and crumbled. The truck overturned
and crashed into the house of poor Jose D'mello below, ruining his balcao.
When the villagers asked the truck driver, who luckily escaped unhurt,
where
he was taking the stones he muttered something in Hindi about a mosque.
"Mosque? Where Mosque - they cried? There's no Mosque in Moira!" The
shocked
Moidekars went to investigate and found that the stones were being taken to
a site that hitherto was believed to be a private residence that was coming
up bang opposite the St. Sebastian chapel in Povoacao.
All hell broke loose and a debate began to rage about the pros and cons of
the mosque. One very wise Moidekar thundered," We Moidekars will never
allow
a Mosque to come up in Moira.But natural..." This sentiment was echoed by
most of the villagers, both Hindu and Christian. There was dark mutterings
about how the public would be woken up early in the morning by the call of
the Azaan over the loudspeakers.
However there were some dissenting voices. One Moidekar somewhat foolishly
opined aloud, "Why is it "but Natural" to deny Muslims the right to
practice their religion? If I mistake not the Constitution of India
guarantees such a right to all its citizens!!" He was greeted with angry
stares.
Stories began to circulate about how arms would get stashed there and how
terrorists might hide there. People began to talk about how the muezzin's
call to prayer would wake the elderly and the babies, unmindful that the
big
Church bells and the temple music did that anyway. In the meanwhile the
Panchayat decided to act before things took an ugly turn and ordered the
construction to be halted pending investigation. This helped to cool
tempers
and after a while the matter was forgotten.
A couple of months later while going on one of my walks that-a-ways with
my
big German Shepard Laskar, he stopped near the Povoacao chapel for a
sniff.
That's when I noticed that work at the alleged Mosque site was going on in
full swing.I asked myself, "What does this mean? Is a Mosque actually going
to come up here?"
The mystery was resolved by my local barman Sada, who is the de facto Panch
member (our ward is reserved for women, and his wife won).
It seems that when people questioned the truck driver, who happened to be a
Muslim, as to where he was taking the stones he replied in Hindi that he
was
taking them near the "Masjid". What he actually meant was that he was
taking
them to the place opposite the chapel - but not being a Goan, and not
knowing Konkani or at least the word for that Christian place of worship,
he
used the word "Masjid"
So what might have resulted in a communal confrontation arose simply
because
the villagers didn't care to check their facts properly, and instead
preferred to rely on rumours and conjecture.
Till next time then
Cheers (ENDS)
==============================================================================
The above article appeared in the June 25, 2008 edition of the Herald, Goa
under the title Relying On Rumours
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 05:40:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!"
<goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Message-ID: <425043.58934.qm at web33002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
However,
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.
--------------------------------------------
Rajan,
I have no idea and of late only a marginal interest in who is spraying whom
in Goa. To the spectator's eye there seems to be a lot of spraying going on.
Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I
have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I
have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the
sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as
bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We
cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies
diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on
goanet.
regards,
selma
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:11:19 +0530
From: "Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Message-ID: <4868d477.20f8720a.5ca9.7910 at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This message is in reply to Selma's (Elisabeth Carvalho) message No 2,
dated
Sunday 29th Jun 2008 written as reply to Dr. Anil Desai's message on above
subject.
Selma writes while extending all the possible support to Miguel Braganza: -
Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is
unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as
offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how
you brand people on this board.
You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is,
unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.
Selma, please read what Miguel Braganza had written under subject titled: I
can't keep up with Goa's intrigues on Fri Jun 20 2008 along with my reply
to
him.
Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an "addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for "Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.
Goan Brahmin is broadly divided into two. One group is called Smarth (as
per
terminology used by you they are also called Addve Bamonn) who are
worshipers of Lord Shiva and are affiliated to Kavle Mutt. The other group
is called Vaishnav who are worshipers of Lord Vishnu and are affiliated to
Partagal Mutt.
This being reality how come you say Manohar Parrikar is - Addvo Bamonn -
andyet you say that he is affiliated to Partagal Mutt! I think you will
have
to do some more research on above information provided by you before you
confuse Selma any further.
So with the above proof provided to you still want to say that - He (Miguel
Braganza) has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a
statement
that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious
sensitivities. Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.
Therefore I feel what Dr. Anil Desai replied to Miguel under above subject
is appropriate and much disserved. Just don't take up for Miguel Braganza
when he is on wrong side.
Secondly Dr. Anil Desai did good thing by providing dictionary meaning of
what Bigot is.
Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:19:24 +0400
From: "[Edu's World]" <edwardlopes7 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] GOAN ROAST PORK WITH BASMATI PILAF
To: "edward lopes" <edwardlopes7 at gmail.com>
<d92a73680806300619i4f802393wcef1f784c1889a0b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
*GOAN ROAST PORK WITH BASMATI PILAF*
*Servings*
*Serves 8 to 10.*
*Ingredients*
6 pounds boneless pork loin with some fat
1 dried chili pepper, with seeds
1 pasilla pepper, with seeds
1/4 teaspoon peppercorns
3 cloves
1 teaspoon cumin seeds
1/2 teaspoon turmeric
1 3-inch cinnamon stick
1 1/2-inch piece of ginger
1 whole fresh green chili pepper, roasted over an open flame and peeled
(leave seeds in pepper)
2 cups chopped cilantro leaves, washed very well and chopped
8 cloves garlic
5 tablespoons cider vinegar
1/4 cup dark rum
2 tablespoons salt
1/2 teaspoon sugar
3 cups basmati rice, picked over, washed well, and soaked in lukewarm water
for 15 minutes
1 chicken bouillon cube
3 tablespoons canola oil
1 cinnamon stick, broken into 3 or 4 pieces
4 cloves
2 bay leaves
2 medium-size onions, finely minced
3 plum tomatoes, cored and diced
Salt to taste
*Cooking Instructions*
Grind the dried chili and pasilla peppers, peppercorns, cloves, cumin,
turmeric, and cinnamon stick in a spice or coffee grinder until fine. Place
the ginger, green chili, cilantro, garlic, vinegar, rum, salt, and sugar in
a blender, and pur?e. Add the ground spices, and pulse quickly. Rub the
mixture all over the pork loin, and allow to marinate for at least 12 hours
in the refrigerator. Remove the pork from refrigerator 2 hours before
cooking.
Preheat oven to 325 degrees. Place the spice-rubbed pork loin on a rack set
in a roasting pan. Roast for approximately 1 hour and 45 minutes or until
internal temperature reaches 130 to 135 degrees on an instant-read
thermometer. Allow to rest for 20 minutes (temperature will rise another 10
degrees). Slice, and serve with Goan basmati pilaf (instructions below).
Drain the rice in a colander. Bring 5 cups water to a boil, add the
bouillon
cube, and allow it to dissolve.
Heat the oil over medium heat in a large stewpot. When it starts to
shimmer,
add the cinnamon and cloves, and heat them until they become fragrant. Add
the bay leaves and onion, and saut? until onion becomes translucent. Add
the
drained rice, and cook over medium heat for 3 to 4 minutes more, stirring
constantly. Add the boiling bouillon and the tomatoes, and season with
salt.
Continue to cook, stirring occasionally and gently, until most of the
liquid
is absorbed, about 10 minutes. Cover, remove from heat, let stand for 15 to
20 minutes, then stir gently with a roasting fork.
edu
edwardlopes7 at gmail.com
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:57:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: JoeGoaUk <joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Where in Goa is this?
To: goanet at goanet.org
Cc: goan-nri at yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <340303.87142.qm at web25906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Talking Photos: Where is this?
All about roads, railways, trains, bridges, tanks etc
To your right is this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616287228/sizes/l/
This is to your left
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2615458853/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616287518/sizes/l/
and this is from the over-bridge
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616286614/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2623453485/sizes/l/
- Not a Konkan Railway Route
Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk
for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/
For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa
__________________________________________________________
Not happy with your email address?.
Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now
at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:39:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: pramod kale <pram203 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] [Goanet-News] NEWS: Indian newspapers fall for
baroque Nazi war criminal hoax
To: goanet at goanet.org
Message-ID: <699784.78872.qm at web56013.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Come on,let's have some fun and not leave it all to Brothers Reliance.
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
From: Goanet News <news.goanet at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet-News] NEWS: Indian newspapers fall for baroque Nazi war
criminal hoax
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
To: "Goanet" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>, goanet-news at goanet.org
Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:21 PM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
**** http://www.GOANET.org ****
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to
Mon (June 30)
At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2008/06/30/indian-newspapers-fall-for-baroque-nazi-war-criminal-hoax/
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
June 30th, 2008
Indian newspapers fall for baroque Nazi war criminal hoax
Post a comment (5)
Posted by: Jonathan Allen
Tags: Critical Eye, hoaxes, India, media
You would think a press release about a German Nazi war
criminal named
Johann Bach being caught in the jungles of Goa after trying
to sell a
stolen 18th-century piano would be worth double-checking.
A reconstruction of the head of 18th-century German
composer Johann
Sebastian Bach, who is not known to have visited
Goa.Nonetheless, the
press release has been regurgitated on the front pages of
the Deccan
Herald and the Indian Express and inside the Telegraph,
citing Perus
Narkp, "the intelligence wing of the Berlin-based
German Chancellor's
Core (sic)", as the source.
Perus Narkp, a not especially Germanic name, is an anagram
of "Super Prank".
The organisation's motto, printed at the top of the
press release, is
"Eht rea enp cabk skripc" ? clearly not the
language of Goethe or
Virgil, but another anagram: "The Pen Pricks are
back".
The Pen Pricks, who run a blog skewering the Goan press,
promised
readers on Sunday they were about to break a "big,
Big, BIg, BIG"
story. It looks like they succeeded. Still, it should not
take
pranksters to remind us that gullibility is a dangerous
flaw in
journalism.
It takes Google only 0.13 seconds to establish that the
Marsha Tikash
Whanaab concentration camp at which Bach was apparently
posted does
not exist. The Express reporter, at least, telephoned the
German
embassy and Indian police for comment. The fact they had no
idea what
the reporter was talking about did not deter publication.
Only the
Times of India gave even a hint that it smelt something
fishy, but ran
a story all the same.
(I don't want to seem like I'm recklessly throwing
stones in a glass
house: no organisation is immune to occasional lapses in
journalistic
perfection, as readers of the Reuters' blog Good, Bad,
and Ugly may be
aware.)
I asked Ramakrishna Upadhya, a senior editor at the Deccan
Herald,
what might have gone wrong.
"We all believed that it was real because it had so
many details," he
said about the press release. "They should have been
cross-checked,"
he added.
He said he is investigating what happened, and that the
paper will run
a correction if necessary.
An official at the German embassy in New Delhi very
politely said they
were looking into what happened but considered it too soon
to declare
it a hoax.
I have tried to e-mail the Pen Pricks. I'll let you
know if I get any response.
Hopefully this was a singular blip and from now on we can
once again
believe every word we read in the press.
ENDS
End of Goanet Digest, Vol 3, Issue 808
**************************************
anil desai
2008-06-29 16:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Dear Goanetters,

I have been contributing to goanet for several months now and I have
expressed my concerns about bigoted views expressed by some individuals on
this forum. this should be of concern to all of us.

I quote below the dictionary definition of Bigot below:

*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]

1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]

2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.

To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.

Now consider how Miguel Braganza has been writing about the infamous VCD and
expressing his anguish about the pain felt by Catholics.

Then in a recent post he wrote thus:

Manohar Parrikar cannot be an incarnation of Vishnu. He is an
"addvo Bamonn" affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a Shiva worshipper [Hence,perhaps, Rajan
Parrikar's phallic fetish].

My response

It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion but apply to
politics as well. So, go on. Let us have more of your incoherent rants.


Anil Desai
Carvalho
2008-06-29 17:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by anil desai
It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be
profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like
myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to
know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion
------------------------------
Dear Dr Desai,

It is interesting to note that of all the bigoted, xenophobic people that abound on Goanet, you choose to admonish Miguel Branganza for being a bigot. Isn't it convenient what we find offensive in life?

Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how you brand people on this board.

You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is, unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.

selma
Carvalho
2008-06-29 18:44:03 UTC
Permalink
February 24th, 2003 was a day my husband and I celebrated being Indian. It wasn?t earmarked on our calendar for any particular reason save for the fact that we landed at Chicago bus station in the early morning of that day.

Chicago is one of the two states in the US that offers consular services for Indians and we being in need of some paperwork, had decided to take the Greyhound from Minnesota, through Wisconsin into Chicago. We ventured outside the terminal into the blistering cold of a Chicago winter morning to find ourselves amidst a sea of fellow bus-travelers who were all awaiting taxis to ferry them onwards. The probability of us finding a taxi was slim and so we braced ourselves for a long wait in the cold.

Chicago is a stark and forbidding city at the best of times, not particularly renowned for its benevolence to strangers. While my husband and I awaited with frozen fingers, toes and hearts, a taxi-cab whizzed past the crowds, swerved in front of us and offered us a ride. We were slightly embarrassed as it is not the done thing in America to bump the queue but we were desperate and jumped into the cab without asking too many questions.

The young driver was Indian. His single question to us was if we were from India, to which we replied in the affirmative. We don?t know which part of India he hailed from, presumably up North, nor do we know what prompted this young man into this act of kindness. Perhaps he felt sorry for bedraggled looking Indians standing at the bus station. Perhaps somewhere inside him was a desire to reach out and help fellow countrymen, however recessed the memory of that country and his association with it may have been.

Beyond the religiocentric and ethnocentric identities of India, there is a larger nation-centric identity that exists for us Indians and it manifests itself most emphatically when we are outside of India. Infact our largesse spreads even to Sri Lankans, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis, reveling in a certain Indian sub-continental kinship. Why then do we turn inwards and fragment so easily within the boundaries of India itself?

selma
Venantius Pinto
2008-06-29 19:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Anil,
So you are actually expressly soliciting incoherent remarks --you are
perhaps not joking?

Miguel's remark about the phallic fetish was said in context to Rajan text
where he used the word ejaculate. You know that don't you, This word along
with ejaculation has more than one meaning and is often employed as
double-entendre (double meaning, in Marathi koddea ni bolna) by those in
possession of sharp-wit. Do make an analogy between what these stalwarts
were engaging in. Miguels was a retort to Rajan. They both know what they
are saying. What purpose will it serve Anil for you to bring this up? Convey
your hurt in a way that will bring your cause understanding, rather than
applying a higher factor to it and inviting incoherent remarks. If something
really hurt me, I would say it. Now you are not me (in a way we are though
going by the highest tenets of Dharma and sangha), but still you have better
language than my feeble attempts to put things across, Its like Bush saying,
"Bring it on," which is crude and does not accomplish much by way of
bringing people together. Unless that is not the intent.

Btw, ithyphallic is a proud amd reverential term at least in Art History. It
was regarded as indecent by Victorians, as were other words that defeaned
their senses and jolted their false realities as the public face of that
society. Furthermore, there are paintings depicting the naked Christ with
exposed genitalia (conveying the aspect of becoming man), that is, before
the Christian world turned relatively prude. In the past aside from the
hedonism, ithyphallic gods like Bacchus who were considered too salacious
for timid minds and newer societies. I have not to my knowledge, come across
a Goanetter who has has regarded Shiva (Rudra, Mahesh, and his 1008 names)
in crude and crafty light.

I will not participate any further in this discussion if my views are placed
in poor light.


Venantius



Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:43:02 +0100
From: "anil desai" <anildesa at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
Dear Goanetters,
I have been contributing to goanet for several months now and I have
expressed my concerns about bigoted views expressed by some individuals on
this forum. this should be of concern to all of us.
*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the
Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]
2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing
from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.
To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.
Now consider how Miguel Braganza has been writing about the infamous VCD
and
expressing his anguish about the pain felt by Catholics.
Manohar Parrikar cannot be an incarnation of Vishnu. He is an
"addvo Bamonn" affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a Shiva worshipper [Hence,perhaps, Rajan
Parrikar's phallic fetish].
My response
It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion but apply to
politics as well. So, go on. Let us have more of your incoherent rants.
Anil Desai
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-06-30 00:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Venantius post?likely puts?Miguel's remarks in context and sheds some light.? Miguel can expand the context in which he used the remarks.
?
However even if used 'in context', the fact that those comments offended the religious sentiment of an individual or a?section of a community makes it wrong.? Just because Rajan used it in his text, does not permit another to show lack of sensitivity and good judgment.?One wrong does not justify another wrong, (intended or unintended), especially when there is no coherence to the exact point being made.
?
Goans (both Catholics and Hindus) have a very difficult time to say "I am sorry".? Permit?me to extend an unqualified apology to Anil and other Hindus for an unwarranted and crude reference to their religion.??
?
Thanks for providing the?definition of "Bigotry".? ?With that definition, one can be a bigot about ones own religion by having?"views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right," and considering contrary views "differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked".
?
Regards, GL
?
------------ Venantius Pinto

Miguel's remark about the phallic fetish was said in context to Rajan text where he used the word ejaculate. You know that don't you, ......?
Do make an analogy between what these stalwarts were engaging in. Miguels was a retort to Rajan.
Btw, ithy phallic is a proud amd reverential term at least in Art History.

--------------- anil desai
?
Bigot - A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is?intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or?morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
?
?It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly?offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa?and outside, isnt it?
Santosh Helekar
2008-06-30 05:40:03 UTC
Permalink
The following definitions ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.

Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has carefully avoided being a hypocrite.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by anil desai
*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name
once given to the Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a
whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to
terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the
same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]
2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters
of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to
or differing from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a
person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in
politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own
church, party,
belief, or opinion.
To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and
believe. --Macaulay.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-06-30 06:57:52 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Carvalho
Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT.
Miguel Braganza's many instances of bigotry against
bamons are to be found in the Goanet archives. Selma
Cardozo seems to have taken pains to deceive herself
before deceiving others. Perplexing, for someone who
makes a song & dance about her own integrity.

But Miguel Braganza is much more than a vanilla bigot.
He is a purveyor of falsehoods, and a coward to boot.
To cite but one instance: he reported on Goanet some
days back that I verbally abused him at Cafe Prakash.
Guilty as charged. It was a great pleasure. However,
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.

Soter D'Souza and I were sitting on one table and
Braganza on the other. He had made claims here
on Goanet that the Goa People's Assembly was a
plot hatched by saffron forces/BJP/Manohar Parrikar,
and that Soter had been cleverly manipulated and
controlled by me in service of the saffron lobby's
nefarious ends.

Now that the principals - Soter and I - in this alleged
conspiracy were all in one room, I asked Miguel
Braganza to lay out his evidence for the claims
he had publicly made. He had nothing to show.
Nada. Shoonya. Zifr. All we got were strange
sounds like "Bup. Bup. Glug. Glug." The tiger behind
the keyboard and in the safety of his home had
suddenly turned into a mouse. It was then that
Soter and I both administered to him a verbal
shower laced with invective. He was back the
next morning on Goanet bawling like a baby,
with more of his Looney Tunes.

That's Miguel Braganza for you. Now back to
the regularly scheduled programming.

Warm regards,


r
JOHN MONTEIRO
2008-06-30 11:18:49 UTC
Permalink
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.

Phew, that was close, I'd be damned if I could think of anyone who would be
classified as a non-bigot on this forum, until now.

Could I be wrong? On this forum, surely!

John Monteiro

------------------------------------------
Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote: The following definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite
is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own
teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who
does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who
contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.
Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly
exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has
carefully avoided being a hypocrite. Cheers, Santosh
-----------------------------------------------






Regards
John Monteiro
Carvalho
2008-06-30 12:40:59 UTC
Permalink
--- On Mon, 6/30/08, Rajan P. Parrikar <parrikar at yahoo.com> wrote:

However,
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.
--------------------------------------------
Rajan,
I have no idea and of late only a marginal interest in who is spraying whom in Goa. To the spectator's eye there seems to be a lot of spraying going on.

Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on goanet.

regards,
selma
Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-06-30 12:41:19 UTC
Permalink
This message is in reply to Selma's (Elisabeth Carvalho) message No 2, dated
Sunday 29th Jun 2008 written as reply to Dr. Anil Desai's message on above
subject.

Selma writes while extending all the possible support to Miguel Braganza: -

Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is
unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as
offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how
you brand people on this board.

You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is,
unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.

MY REPLY TO SELMA'S MESSAGE IS:

Selma, please read what Miguel Braganza had written under subject titled: I
can't keep up with Goa's intrigues on Fri Jun 20 2008 along with my reply to
him.

Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an "addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for "Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.

And my reply to that writing was:

Goan Brahmin is broadly divided into two. One group is called Smarth (as per
terminology used by you they are also called Addve Bamonn) who are
worshipers of Lord Shiva and are affiliated to Kavle Mutt. The other group
is called Vaishnav who are worshipers of Lord Vishnu and are affiliated to
Partagal Mutt.

This being reality how come you say Manohar Parrikar is - Addvo Bamonn -
andyet you say that he is affiliated to Partagal Mutt! I think you will have
to do some more research on above information provided by you before you
confuse Selma any further.

NOW MY REPLY TO SELMA IS:

So with the above proof provided to you still want to say that - He (Miguel
Braganza) has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a statement
that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious
sensitivities. Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.

Therefore I feel what Dr. Anil Desai replied to Miguel under above subject
is appropriate and much disserved. Just don't take up for Miguel Braganza
when he is on wrong side.

Secondly Dr. Anil Desai did good thing by providing dictionary meaning of
what Bigot is.

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
Santosh Helekar
2008-06-30 19:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by JOHN MONTEIRO
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.
Please explain how. Are you sure M. F. Hussain is a postmodern moral relativist who is not a hypocrite? If he believes that Hindu Janajagruti Samiti's opinions are unreasonable, then he is a bigot.

I cannot tell who on Goanet is not a bigot according to those dictionary definitions.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2008-06-30 20:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. U. G. Barad
Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an
"addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.
Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of
Post by Dr. U. G. Barad
religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva
worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.
---------------------------------------------------
Really Dotor Barad?

Shiva and Vishnu worshipers in Goa have nothing better to be disturbed about then Miguel mistakenly saying Parriker is a Shiva worshipper? Perhaps they think so little of Parriker that neither of them want him as either a Shiva or a Vishnu worshiper.

Don't be ridiculous. Nobody thought anything about that statement until Rajan Parriker and Miguel Braganza had a falling out in some Goan cafe. Seriously, I think the Goan intelligentsia should stop hanging out at the same cafe.

Now, all of a sudden Dr Desai wakes up two weeks after the initial statement was made and tells us that he is greatly offended by Miguel's innocent slip-up. Was there any intent on Miguel's part to be insensitive? Was there any intent on Miguel's part to denigrate the Hindu religion or cause offense to Shiva or Vishnu worshipers? Was Miguel being disrespectful to either Shiva or Vishnu?

The answer to all these questions is a big fat NO. And the reason I am being so vehement about this is because it is precisely these sort of allegations that have led to so much communal discord in India. Because of our political difference, we erect religious bogeymen and then it is easy to invoke emotions, create smokescreens and cause general mayhem.

It is irresponsible behaviour gentlemen, irresponsible to the core and as citizens of India, we truly have to be ashamed of ourselves. Surely, half a century of independence should have produced betters citizens.

selma
anil desai
2008-06-30 18:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Selma wrote:
Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I
have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I
have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the
sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as
bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We
cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies
diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on
goanet.

Response:

Dear Selma,

Read my post again. I will give you a clue. The evidence is there in his
comment on Rajan's religious affiliation. If you do not understand it, ask
Miguel. I am sure he will be only too pleased to explain how offensive he
wanted to be to Rajan and not thousands but millions of other worshippers of
Lord Shiva scattered all over the world.

Quite frankly, his religious bigotry does not bother me so much. That is a
fairly common currency in almost all religions, hinduism included. His
bigoted writings on socio-political issues do bother me.

Anil Desai
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-07-01 01:42:34 UTC
Permalink
When one points a finger at someone else, there are about three fingers that point back.
?
With the definition provided, one needs to look at oneself to know if one is a bigot.
?
Trying to look for others who are bigots, may in itself be an act?of bigotry, because it implies ones desire to label?others as "unreasonable or wicked".
?
Thanks Anil for providing the definition of "bigot".? It looks like?the definition?has opened a 'can of worms'.? Kudos?to those who are doing a bit of soul-searching.? Perhaps after-all Santosh is right?? The definition of 'Bigot' was not created / invented?by Anil.? Let us not shoot the messenger.
?
Regards,?GL
?
??
--------------- Santosh Helekar

I cannot tell who on Goanet is not a bigot according to those dictionary definitions.
?
--------------- Anil Desai
?
Bigot - A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked.
?
In an extended sense, a person who is?intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or?morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
Venantius Pinto
2008-06-30 19:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,
Santosh is correct when he says "The following definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot." Note the word "hypocrite."

venantius
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:18:49 -0400
From: "JOHN MONTEIRO" <j.monteiro at btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.
Phew, that was close, I'd be damned if I could think of anyone who would be
classified as a non-bigot on this forum, until now.
Could I be wrong? On this forum, surely!
John Monteiro
------------------------------------------
Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote: The following
definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite
is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own
teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who
does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who
contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.
Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly
exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has
carefully avoided being a hypocrite. Cheers, Santosh
-----------------------------------------------
Regards
John Monteiro
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:02:49 -0400
From: "Augusto Pinto" <pintogoa at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] The Mosque in Moira
To: "Goanet" <goanet at goanet.org>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP08CAC0B19F44FFC246D35A879F0 at CEZ.ICE>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Cheers Dears
By Augusto Pinto
The Mosque in Moira
Dears,
Do you like to tittle - tattle?
No dears, you don't need to put on those solemn and pious faces and tell me
that you hate gossip and never listen to rumours. Of course you do. So do
I.
So does everyone else. There's no need to be ashamed about it. Rumours are
where you get the real masala about what's happening in the world, not the
government gazettes that masquerade as newspapers.
And most of the time, the gossip that we listen to is dead right. Okay,
maybe here and there the details go a little awry. But by and large, what
we
get through the grapevine is fairly reliable.
So why does gossip have a bad name? The reason is that when it does go
wrong
it can go spectacularly wrong. Like the time when an A. I. R. reporter
believed a rumour that the former Prime Minister of India Morarji Desai had
kicked the bucket and broadcast the news without double checking. There was
a furore when it came out that though the old urine drinker was doddering
in
his 90s - he was very much alive.
The reason why I'm bringing up this matter is to tell you a real life
incident that occurred in my wise village of Moira. Some time ago there was
a ruckus about a mosque that was coming up in the village. The information
came up in an interesting way. A truck overloaded with stones took the
turn
at Luis's bar, but unfortunately its wheels went too close to the side of
the road, which couldn't bear the weight and crumbled. The truck overturned
and crashed into the house of poor Jose D'mello below, ruining his balcao.
When the villagers asked the truck driver, who luckily escaped unhurt,
where
he was taking the stones he muttered something in Hindi about a mosque.
"Mosque? Where Mosque - they cried? There's no Mosque in Moira!" The
shocked
Moidekars went to investigate and found that the stones were being taken to
a site that hitherto was believed to be a private residence that was coming
up bang opposite the St. Sebastian chapel in Povoacao.
All hell broke loose and a debate began to rage about the pros and cons of
the mosque. One very wise Moidekar thundered," We Moidekars will never
allow
a Mosque to come up in Moira.But natural..." This sentiment was echoed by
most of the villagers, both Hindu and Christian. There was dark mutterings
about how the public would be woken up early in the morning by the call of
the Azaan over the loudspeakers.
However there were some dissenting voices. One Moidekar somewhat foolishly
opined aloud, "Why is it "but Natural" to deny Muslims the right to
practice their religion? If I mistake not the Constitution of India
guarantees such a right to all its citizens!!" He was greeted with angry
stares.
Stories began to circulate about how arms would get stashed there and how
terrorists might hide there. People began to talk about how the muezzin's
call to prayer would wake the elderly and the babies, unmindful that the
big
Church bells and the temple music did that anyway. In the meanwhile the
Panchayat decided to act before things took an ugly turn and ordered the
construction to be halted pending investigation. This helped to cool
tempers
and after a while the matter was forgotten.
A couple of months later while going on one of my walks that-a-ways with
my
big German Shepard Laskar, he stopped near the Povoacao chapel for a
sniff.
That's when I noticed that work at the alleged Mosque site was going on in
full swing.I asked myself, "What does this mean? Is a Mosque actually going
to come up here?"
The mystery was resolved by my local barman Sada, who is the de facto Panch
member (our ward is reserved for women, and his wife won).
It seems that when people questioned the truck driver, who happened to be a
Muslim, as to where he was taking the stones he replied in Hindi that he
was
taking them near the "Masjid". What he actually meant was that he was
taking
them to the place opposite the chapel - but not being a Goan, and not
knowing Konkani or at least the word for that Christian place of worship,
he
used the word "Masjid"
So what might have resulted in a communal confrontation arose simply
because
the villagers didn't care to check their facts properly, and instead
preferred to rely on rumours and conjecture.
Till next time then
Cheers (ENDS)
==============================================================================
The above article appeared in the June 25, 2008 edition of the Herald, Goa
under the title Relying On Rumours
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 05:40:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!"
<goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Message-ID: <425043.58934.qm at web33002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
However,
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.
--------------------------------------------
Rajan,
I have no idea and of late only a marginal interest in who is spraying whom
in Goa. To the spectator's eye there seems to be a lot of spraying going on.
Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I
have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I
have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the
sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as
bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We
cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies
diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on
goanet.
regards,
selma
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:11:19 +0530
From: "Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Message-ID: <4868d477.20f8720a.5ca9.7910 at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This message is in reply to Selma's (Elisabeth Carvalho) message No 2,
dated
Sunday 29th Jun 2008 written as reply to Dr. Anil Desai's message on above
subject.
Selma writes while extending all the possible support to Miguel Braganza: -
Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is
unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as
offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how
you brand people on this board.
You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is,
unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.
Selma, please read what Miguel Braganza had written under subject titled: I
can't keep up with Goa's intrigues on Fri Jun 20 2008 along with my reply
to
him.
Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an "addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for "Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.
Goan Brahmin is broadly divided into two. One group is called Smarth (as
per
terminology used by you they are also called Addve Bamonn) who are
worshipers of Lord Shiva and are affiliated to Kavle Mutt. The other group
is called Vaishnav who are worshipers of Lord Vishnu and are affiliated to
Partagal Mutt.
This being reality how come you say Manohar Parrikar is - Addvo Bamonn -
andyet you say that he is affiliated to Partagal Mutt! I think you will
have
to do some more research on above information provided by you before you
confuse Selma any further.
So with the above proof provided to you still want to say that - He (Miguel
Braganza) has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a
statement
that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious
sensitivities. Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.
Therefore I feel what Dr. Anil Desai replied to Miguel under above subject
is appropriate and much disserved. Just don't take up for Miguel Braganza
when he is on wrong side.
Secondly Dr. Anil Desai did good thing by providing dictionary meaning of
what Bigot is.
Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:19:24 +0400
From: "[Edu's World]" <edwardlopes7 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] GOAN ROAST PORK WITH BASMATI PILAF
To: "edward lopes" <edwardlopes7 at gmail.com>
<d92a73680806300619i4f802393wcef1f784c1889a0b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
*GOAN ROAST PORK WITH BASMATI PILAF*
*Servings*
*Serves 8 to 10.*
*Ingredients*
6 pounds boneless pork loin with some fat
1 dried chili pepper, with seeds
1 pasilla pepper, with seeds
1/4 teaspoon peppercorns
3 cloves
1 teaspoon cumin seeds
1/2 teaspoon turmeric
1 3-inch cinnamon stick
1 1/2-inch piece of ginger
1 whole fresh green chili pepper, roasted over an open flame and peeled
(leave seeds in pepper)
2 cups chopped cilantro leaves, washed very well and chopped
8 cloves garlic
5 tablespoons cider vinegar
1/4 cup dark rum
2 tablespoons salt
1/2 teaspoon sugar
3 cups basmati rice, picked over, washed well, and soaked in lukewarm water
for 15 minutes
1 chicken bouillon cube
3 tablespoons canola oil
1 cinnamon stick, broken into 3 or 4 pieces
4 cloves
2 bay leaves
2 medium-size onions, finely minced
3 plum tomatoes, cored and diced
Salt to taste
*Cooking Instructions*
Grind the dried chili and pasilla peppers, peppercorns, cloves, cumin,
turmeric, and cinnamon stick in a spice or coffee grinder until fine. Place
the ginger, green chili, cilantro, garlic, vinegar, rum, salt, and sugar in
a blender, and pur?e. Add the ground spices, and pulse quickly. Rub the
mixture all over the pork loin, and allow to marinate for at least 12 hours
in the refrigerator. Remove the pork from refrigerator 2 hours before
cooking.
Preheat oven to 325 degrees. Place the spice-rubbed pork loin on a rack set
in a roasting pan. Roast for approximately 1 hour and 45 minutes or until
internal temperature reaches 130 to 135 degrees on an instant-read
thermometer. Allow to rest for 20 minutes (temperature will rise another 10
degrees). Slice, and serve with Goan basmati pilaf (instructions below).
Drain the rice in a colander. Bring 5 cups water to a boil, add the
bouillon
cube, and allow it to dissolve.
Heat the oil over medium heat in a large stewpot. When it starts to
shimmer,
add the cinnamon and cloves, and heat them until they become fragrant. Add
the bay leaves and onion, and saut? until onion becomes translucent. Add
the
drained rice, and cook over medium heat for 3 to 4 minutes more, stirring
constantly. Add the boiling bouillon and the tomatoes, and season with
salt.
Continue to cook, stirring occasionally and gently, until most of the
liquid
is absorbed, about 10 minutes. Cover, remove from heat, let stand for 15 to
20 minutes, then stir gently with a roasting fork.
edu
edwardlopes7 at gmail.com
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:57:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: JoeGoaUk <joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Where in Goa is this?
To: goanet at goanet.org
Cc: goan-nri at yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <340303.87142.qm at web25906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Talking Photos: Where is this?
All about roads, railways, trains, bridges, tanks etc
To your right is this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616287228/sizes/l/
This is to your left
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2615458853/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616287518/sizes/l/
and this is from the over-bridge
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616286614/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2623453485/sizes/l/
- Not a Konkan Railway Route
Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk
for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/
For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa
__________________________________________________________
Not happy with your email address?.
Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now
at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:39:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: pramod kale <pram203 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] [Goanet-News] NEWS: Indian newspapers fall for
baroque Nazi war criminal hoax
To: goanet at goanet.org
Message-ID: <699784.78872.qm at web56013.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Come on,let's have some fun and not leave it all to Brothers Reliance.
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
From: Goanet News <news.goanet at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet-News] NEWS: Indian newspapers fall for baroque Nazi war
criminal hoax
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
To: "Goanet" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>, goanet-news at goanet.org
Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:21 PM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
**** http://www.GOANET.org ****
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to
Mon (June 30)
At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2008/06/30/indian-newspapers-fall-for-baroque-nazi-war-criminal-hoax/
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
June 30th, 2008
Indian newspapers fall for baroque Nazi war criminal hoax
Post a comment (5)
Posted by: Jonathan Allen
Tags: Critical Eye, hoaxes, India, media
You would think a press release about a German Nazi war
criminal named
Johann Bach being caught in the jungles of Goa after trying
to sell a
stolen 18th-century piano would be worth double-checking.
A reconstruction of the head of 18th-century German
composer Johann
Sebastian Bach, who is not known to have visited
Goa.Nonetheless, the
press release has been regurgitated on the front pages of
the Deccan
Herald and the Indian Express and inside the Telegraph,
citing Perus
Narkp, "the intelligence wing of the Berlin-based
German Chancellor's
Core (sic)", as the source.
Perus Narkp, a not especially Germanic name, is an anagram
of "Super Prank".
The organisation's motto, printed at the top of the
press release, is
"Eht rea enp cabk skripc" ? clearly not the
language of Goethe or
Virgil, but another anagram: "The Pen Pricks are
back".
The Pen Pricks, who run a blog skewering the Goan press,
promised
readers on Sunday they were about to break a "big,
Big, BIg, BIG"
story. It looks like they succeeded. Still, it should not
take
pranksters to remind us that gullibility is a dangerous
flaw in
journalism.
It takes Google only 0.13 seconds to establish that the
Marsha Tikash
Whanaab concentration camp at which Bach was apparently
posted does
not exist. The Express reporter, at least, telephoned the
German
embassy and Indian police for comment. The fact they had no
idea what
the reporter was talking about did not deter publication.
Only the
Times of India gave even a hint that it smelt something
fishy, but ran
a story all the same.
(I don't want to seem like I'm recklessly throwing
stones in a glass
house: no organisation is immune to occasional lapses in
journalistic
perfection, as readers of the Reuters' blog Good, Bad,
and Ugly may be
aware.)
I asked Ramakrishna Upadhya, a senior editor at the Deccan
Herald,
what might have gone wrong.
"We all believed that it was real because it had so
many details," he
said about the press release. "They should have been
cross-checked,"
he added.
He said he is investigating what happened, and that the
paper will run
a correction if necessary.
An official at the German embassy in New Delhi very
politely said they
were looking into what happened but considered it too soon
to declare
it a hoax.
I have tried to e-mail the Pen Pricks. I'll let you
know if I get any response.
Hopefully this was a singular blip and from now on we can
once again
believe every word we read in the press.
ENDS
End of Goanet Digest, Vol 3, Issue 808
**************************************
anil desai
2008-06-29 16:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Dear Goanetters,

I have been contributing to goanet for several months now and I have
expressed my concerns about bigoted views expressed by some individuals on
this forum. this should be of concern to all of us.

I quote below the dictionary definition of Bigot below:

*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]

1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]

2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.

To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.

Now consider how Miguel Braganza has been writing about the infamous VCD and
expressing his anguish about the pain felt by Catholics.

Then in a recent post he wrote thus:

Manohar Parrikar cannot be an incarnation of Vishnu. He is an
"addvo Bamonn" affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a Shiva worshipper [Hence,perhaps, Rajan
Parrikar's phallic fetish].

My response

It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion but apply to
politics as well. So, go on. Let us have more of your incoherent rants.


Anil Desai
Carvalho
2008-06-29 17:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by anil desai
It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be
profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like
myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to
know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion
------------------------------
Dear Dr Desai,

It is interesting to note that of all the bigoted, xenophobic people that abound on Goanet, you choose to admonish Miguel Branganza for being a bigot. Isn't it convenient what we find offensive in life?

Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how you brand people on this board.

You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is, unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.

selma
Carvalho
2008-06-29 18:44:03 UTC
Permalink
February 24th, 2003 was a day my husband and I celebrated being Indian. It wasn?t earmarked on our calendar for any particular reason save for the fact that we landed at Chicago bus station in the early morning of that day.

Chicago is one of the two states in the US that offers consular services for Indians and we being in need of some paperwork, had decided to take the Greyhound from Minnesota, through Wisconsin into Chicago. We ventured outside the terminal into the blistering cold of a Chicago winter morning to find ourselves amidst a sea of fellow bus-travelers who were all awaiting taxis to ferry them onwards. The probability of us finding a taxi was slim and so we braced ourselves for a long wait in the cold.

Chicago is a stark and forbidding city at the best of times, not particularly renowned for its benevolence to strangers. While my husband and I awaited with frozen fingers, toes and hearts, a taxi-cab whizzed past the crowds, swerved in front of us and offered us a ride. We were slightly embarrassed as it is not the done thing in America to bump the queue but we were desperate and jumped into the cab without asking too many questions.

The young driver was Indian. His single question to us was if we were from India, to which we replied in the affirmative. We don?t know which part of India he hailed from, presumably up North, nor do we know what prompted this young man into this act of kindness. Perhaps he felt sorry for bedraggled looking Indians standing at the bus station. Perhaps somewhere inside him was a desire to reach out and help fellow countrymen, however recessed the memory of that country and his association with it may have been.

Beyond the religiocentric and ethnocentric identities of India, there is a larger nation-centric identity that exists for us Indians and it manifests itself most emphatically when we are outside of India. Infact our largesse spreads even to Sri Lankans, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis, reveling in a certain Indian sub-continental kinship. Why then do we turn inwards and fragment so easily within the boundaries of India itself?

selma
Venantius Pinto
2008-06-29 19:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Anil,
So you are actually expressly soliciting incoherent remarks --you are
perhaps not joking?

Miguel's remark about the phallic fetish was said in context to Rajan text
where he used the word ejaculate. You know that don't you, This word along
with ejaculation has more than one meaning and is often employed as
double-entendre (double meaning, in Marathi koddea ni bolna) by those in
possession of sharp-wit. Do make an analogy between what these stalwarts
were engaging in. Miguels was a retort to Rajan. They both know what they
are saying. What purpose will it serve Anil for you to bring this up? Convey
your hurt in a way that will bring your cause understanding, rather than
applying a higher factor to it and inviting incoherent remarks. If something
really hurt me, I would say it. Now you are not me (in a way we are though
going by the highest tenets of Dharma and sangha), but still you have better
language than my feeble attempts to put things across, Its like Bush saying,
"Bring it on," which is crude and does not accomplish much by way of
bringing people together. Unless that is not the intent.

Btw, ithyphallic is a proud amd reverential term at least in Art History. It
was regarded as indecent by Victorians, as were other words that defeaned
their senses and jolted their false realities as the public face of that
society. Furthermore, there are paintings depicting the naked Christ with
exposed genitalia (conveying the aspect of becoming man), that is, before
the Christian world turned relatively prude. In the past aside from the
hedonism, ithyphallic gods like Bacchus who were considered too salacious
for timid minds and newer societies. I have not to my knowledge, come across
a Goanetter who has has regarded Shiva (Rudra, Mahesh, and his 1008 names)
in crude and crafty light.

I will not participate any further in this discussion if my views are placed
in poor light.


Venantius



Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:43:02 +0100
From: "anil desai" <anildesa at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
Dear Goanetters,
I have been contributing to goanet for several months now and I have
expressed my concerns about bigoted views expressed by some individuals on
this forum. this should be of concern to all of us.
*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the
Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]
2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing
from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.
To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.
Now consider how Miguel Braganza has been writing about the infamous VCD
and
expressing his anguish about the pain felt by Catholics.
Manohar Parrikar cannot be an incarnation of Vishnu. He is an
"addvo Bamonn" affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a Shiva worshipper [Hence,perhaps, Rajan
Parrikar's phallic fetish].
My response
It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion but apply to
politics as well. So, go on. Let us have more of your incoherent rants.
Anil Desai
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-06-30 00:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Venantius post?likely puts?Miguel's remarks in context and sheds some light.? Miguel can expand the context in which he used the remarks.
?
However even if used 'in context', the fact that those comments offended the religious sentiment of an individual or a?section of a community makes it wrong.? Just because Rajan used it in his text, does not permit another to show lack of sensitivity and good judgment.?One wrong does not justify another wrong, (intended or unintended), especially when there is no coherence to the exact point being made.
?
Goans (both Catholics and Hindus) have a very difficult time to say "I am sorry".? Permit?me to extend an unqualified apology to Anil and other Hindus for an unwarranted and crude reference to their religion.??
?
Thanks for providing the?definition of "Bigotry".? ?With that definition, one can be a bigot about ones own religion by having?"views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right," and considering contrary views "differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked".
?
Regards, GL
?
------------ Venantius Pinto

Miguel's remark about the phallic fetish was said in context to Rajan text where he used the word ejaculate. You know that don't you, ......?
Do make an analogy between what these stalwarts were engaging in. Miguels was a retort to Rajan.
Btw, ithy phallic is a proud amd reverential term at least in Art History.

--------------- anil desai
?
Bigot - A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is?intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or?morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
?
?It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly?offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa?and outside, isnt it?
Santosh Helekar
2008-06-30 05:40:03 UTC
Permalink
The following definitions ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.

Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has carefully avoided being a hypocrite.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by anil desai
*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name
once given to the Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a
whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to
terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the
same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]
2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters
of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to
or differing from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a
person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in
politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own
church, party,
belief, or opinion.
To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and
believe. --Macaulay.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-06-30 06:57:52 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Carvalho
Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT.
Miguel Braganza's many instances of bigotry against
bamons are to be found in the Goanet archives. Selma
Cardozo seems to have taken pains to deceive herself
before deceiving others. Perplexing, for someone who
makes a song & dance about her own integrity.

But Miguel Braganza is much more than a vanilla bigot.
He is a purveyor of falsehoods, and a coward to boot.
To cite but one instance: he reported on Goanet some
days back that I verbally abused him at Cafe Prakash.
Guilty as charged. It was a great pleasure. However,
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.

Soter D'Souza and I were sitting on one table and
Braganza on the other. He had made claims here
on Goanet that the Goa People's Assembly was a
plot hatched by saffron forces/BJP/Manohar Parrikar,
and that Soter had been cleverly manipulated and
controlled by me in service of the saffron lobby's
nefarious ends.

Now that the principals - Soter and I - in this alleged
conspiracy were all in one room, I asked Miguel
Braganza to lay out his evidence for the claims
he had publicly made. He had nothing to show.
Nada. Shoonya. Zifr. All we got were strange
sounds like "Bup. Bup. Glug. Glug." The tiger behind
the keyboard and in the safety of his home had
suddenly turned into a mouse. It was then that
Soter and I both administered to him a verbal
shower laced with invective. He was back the
next morning on Goanet bawling like a baby,
with more of his Looney Tunes.

That's Miguel Braganza for you. Now back to
the regularly scheduled programming.

Warm regards,


r
JOHN MONTEIRO
2008-06-30 11:18:49 UTC
Permalink
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.

Phew, that was close, I'd be damned if I could think of anyone who would be
classified as a non-bigot on this forum, until now.

Could I be wrong? On this forum, surely!

John Monteiro

------------------------------------------
Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote: The following definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite
is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own
teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who
does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who
contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.
Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly
exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has
carefully avoided being a hypocrite. Cheers, Santosh
-----------------------------------------------






Regards
John Monteiro
Carvalho
2008-06-30 12:40:59 UTC
Permalink
--- On Mon, 6/30/08, Rajan P. Parrikar <parrikar at yahoo.com> wrote:

However,
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.
--------------------------------------------
Rajan,
I have no idea and of late only a marginal interest in who is spraying whom in Goa. To the spectator's eye there seems to be a lot of spraying going on.

Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on goanet.

regards,
selma
Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-06-30 12:41:19 UTC
Permalink
This message is in reply to Selma's (Elisabeth Carvalho) message No 2, dated
Sunday 29th Jun 2008 written as reply to Dr. Anil Desai's message on above
subject.

Selma writes while extending all the possible support to Miguel Braganza: -

Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is
unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as
offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how
you brand people on this board.

You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is,
unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.

MY REPLY TO SELMA'S MESSAGE IS:

Selma, please read what Miguel Braganza had written under subject titled: I
can't keep up with Goa's intrigues on Fri Jun 20 2008 along with my reply to
him.

Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an "addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for "Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.

And my reply to that writing was:

Goan Brahmin is broadly divided into two. One group is called Smarth (as per
terminology used by you they are also called Addve Bamonn) who are
worshipers of Lord Shiva and are affiliated to Kavle Mutt. The other group
is called Vaishnav who are worshipers of Lord Vishnu and are affiliated to
Partagal Mutt.

This being reality how come you say Manohar Parrikar is - Addvo Bamonn -
andyet you say that he is affiliated to Partagal Mutt! I think you will have
to do some more research on above information provided by you before you
confuse Selma any further.

NOW MY REPLY TO SELMA IS:

So with the above proof provided to you still want to say that - He (Miguel
Braganza) has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a statement
that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious
sensitivities. Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.

Therefore I feel what Dr. Anil Desai replied to Miguel under above subject
is appropriate and much disserved. Just don't take up for Miguel Braganza
when he is on wrong side.

Secondly Dr. Anil Desai did good thing by providing dictionary meaning of
what Bigot is.

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
Santosh Helekar
2008-06-30 19:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by JOHN MONTEIRO
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.
Please explain how. Are you sure M. F. Hussain is a postmodern moral relativist who is not a hypocrite? If he believes that Hindu Janajagruti Samiti's opinions are unreasonable, then he is a bigot.

I cannot tell who on Goanet is not a bigot according to those dictionary definitions.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2008-06-30 20:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. U. G. Barad
Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an
"addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.
Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of
Post by Dr. U. G. Barad
religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva
worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.
---------------------------------------------------
Really Dotor Barad?

Shiva and Vishnu worshipers in Goa have nothing better to be disturbed about then Miguel mistakenly saying Parriker is a Shiva worshipper? Perhaps they think so little of Parriker that neither of them want him as either a Shiva or a Vishnu worshiper.

Don't be ridiculous. Nobody thought anything about that statement until Rajan Parriker and Miguel Braganza had a falling out in some Goan cafe. Seriously, I think the Goan intelligentsia should stop hanging out at the same cafe.

Now, all of a sudden Dr Desai wakes up two weeks after the initial statement was made and tells us that he is greatly offended by Miguel's innocent slip-up. Was there any intent on Miguel's part to be insensitive? Was there any intent on Miguel's part to denigrate the Hindu religion or cause offense to Shiva or Vishnu worshipers? Was Miguel being disrespectful to either Shiva or Vishnu?

The answer to all these questions is a big fat NO. And the reason I am being so vehement about this is because it is precisely these sort of allegations that have led to so much communal discord in India. Because of our political difference, we erect religious bogeymen and then it is easy to invoke emotions, create smokescreens and cause general mayhem.

It is irresponsible behaviour gentlemen, irresponsible to the core and as citizens of India, we truly have to be ashamed of ourselves. Surely, half a century of independence should have produced betters citizens.

selma
anil desai
2008-06-30 18:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Selma wrote:
Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I
have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I
have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the
sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as
bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We
cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies
diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on
goanet.

Response:

Dear Selma,

Read my post again. I will give you a clue. The evidence is there in his
comment on Rajan's religious affiliation. If you do not understand it, ask
Miguel. I am sure he will be only too pleased to explain how offensive he
wanted to be to Rajan and not thousands but millions of other worshippers of
Lord Shiva scattered all over the world.

Quite frankly, his religious bigotry does not bother me so much. That is a
fairly common currency in almost all religions, hinduism included. His
bigoted writings on socio-political issues do bother me.

Anil Desai
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-07-01 01:42:34 UTC
Permalink
When one points a finger at someone else, there are about three fingers that point back.
?
With the definition provided, one needs to look at oneself to know if one is a bigot.
?
Trying to look for others who are bigots, may in itself be an act?of bigotry, because it implies ones desire to label?others as "unreasonable or wicked".
?
Thanks Anil for providing the definition of "bigot".? It looks like?the definition?has opened a 'can of worms'.? Kudos?to those who are doing a bit of soul-searching.? Perhaps after-all Santosh is right?? The definition of 'Bigot' was not created / invented?by Anil.? Let us not shoot the messenger.
?
Regards,?GL
?
??
--------------- Santosh Helekar

I cannot tell who on Goanet is not a bigot according to those dictionary definitions.
?
--------------- Anil Desai
?
Bigot - A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked.
?
In an extended sense, a person who is?intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or?morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
Venantius Pinto
2008-06-30 19:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,
Santosh is correct when he says "The following definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot." Note the word "hypocrite."

venantius
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:18:49 -0400
From: "JOHN MONTEIRO" <j.monteiro at btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.
Phew, that was close, I'd be damned if I could think of anyone who would be
classified as a non-bigot on this forum, until now.
Could I be wrong? On this forum, surely!
John Monteiro
------------------------------------------
Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote: The following
definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite
is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own
teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who
does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who
contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.
Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly
exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has
carefully avoided being a hypocrite. Cheers, Santosh
-----------------------------------------------
Regards
John Monteiro
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:02:49 -0400
From: "Augusto Pinto" <pintogoa at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] The Mosque in Moira
To: "Goanet" <goanet at goanet.org>
Message-ID: <BAYC1-PASMTP08CAC0B19F44FFC246D35A879F0 at CEZ.ICE>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Cheers Dears
By Augusto Pinto
The Mosque in Moira
Dears,
Do you like to tittle - tattle?
No dears, you don't need to put on those solemn and pious faces and tell me
that you hate gossip and never listen to rumours. Of course you do. So do
I.
So does everyone else. There's no need to be ashamed about it. Rumours are
where you get the real masala about what's happening in the world, not the
government gazettes that masquerade as newspapers.
And most of the time, the gossip that we listen to is dead right. Okay,
maybe here and there the details go a little awry. But by and large, what
we
get through the grapevine is fairly reliable.
So why does gossip have a bad name? The reason is that when it does go
wrong
it can go spectacularly wrong. Like the time when an A. I. R. reporter
believed a rumour that the former Prime Minister of India Morarji Desai had
kicked the bucket and broadcast the news without double checking. There was
a furore when it came out that though the old urine drinker was doddering
in
his 90s - he was very much alive.
The reason why I'm bringing up this matter is to tell you a real life
incident that occurred in my wise village of Moira. Some time ago there was
a ruckus about a mosque that was coming up in the village. The information
came up in an interesting way. A truck overloaded with stones took the
turn
at Luis's bar, but unfortunately its wheels went too close to the side of
the road, which couldn't bear the weight and crumbled. The truck overturned
and crashed into the house of poor Jose D'mello below, ruining his balcao.
When the villagers asked the truck driver, who luckily escaped unhurt,
where
he was taking the stones he muttered something in Hindi about a mosque.
"Mosque? Where Mosque - they cried? There's no Mosque in Moira!" The
shocked
Moidekars went to investigate and found that the stones were being taken to
a site that hitherto was believed to be a private residence that was coming
up bang opposite the St. Sebastian chapel in Povoacao.
All hell broke loose and a debate began to rage about the pros and cons of
the mosque. One very wise Moidekar thundered," We Moidekars will never
allow
a Mosque to come up in Moira.But natural..." This sentiment was echoed by
most of the villagers, both Hindu and Christian. There was dark mutterings
about how the public would be woken up early in the morning by the call of
the Azaan over the loudspeakers.
However there were some dissenting voices. One Moidekar somewhat foolishly
opined aloud, "Why is it "but Natural" to deny Muslims the right to
practice their religion? If I mistake not the Constitution of India
guarantees such a right to all its citizens!!" He was greeted with angry
stares.
Stories began to circulate about how arms would get stashed there and how
terrorists might hide there. People began to talk about how the muezzin's
call to prayer would wake the elderly and the babies, unmindful that the
big
Church bells and the temple music did that anyway. In the meanwhile the
Panchayat decided to act before things took an ugly turn and ordered the
construction to be halted pending investigation. This helped to cool
tempers
and after a while the matter was forgotten.
A couple of months later while going on one of my walks that-a-ways with
my
big German Shepard Laskar, he stopped near the Povoacao chapel for a
sniff.
That's when I noticed that work at the alleged Mosque site was going on in
full swing.I asked myself, "What does this mean? Is a Mosque actually going
to come up here?"
The mystery was resolved by my local barman Sada, who is the de facto Panch
member (our ward is reserved for women, and his wife won).
It seems that when people questioned the truck driver, who happened to be a
Muslim, as to where he was taking the stones he replied in Hindi that he
was
taking them near the "Masjid". What he actually meant was that he was
taking
them to the place opposite the chapel - but not being a Goan, and not
knowing Konkani or at least the word for that Christian place of worship,
he
used the word "Masjid"
So what might have resulted in a communal confrontation arose simply
because
the villagers didn't care to check their facts properly, and instead
preferred to rely on rumours and conjecture.
Till next time then
Cheers (ENDS)
==============================================================================
The above article appeared in the June 25, 2008 edition of the Herald, Goa
under the title Relying On Rumours
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 05:40:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!"
<goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Message-ID: <425043.58934.qm at web33002.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
However,
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.
--------------------------------------------
Rajan,
I have no idea and of late only a marginal interest in who is spraying whom
in Goa. To the spectator's eye there seems to be a lot of spraying going on.
Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I
have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I
have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the
sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as
bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We
cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies
diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on
goanet.
regards,
selma
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:11:19 +0530
From: "Dr. U. G. Barad" <dr.udaybarad at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Message-ID: <4868d477.20f8720a.5ca9.7910 at mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This message is in reply to Selma's (Elisabeth Carvalho) message No 2,
dated
Sunday 29th Jun 2008 written as reply to Dr. Anil Desai's message on above
subject.
Selma writes while extending all the possible support to Miguel Braganza: -
Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is
unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as
offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how
you brand people on this board.
You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is,
unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.
Selma, please read what Miguel Braganza had written under subject titled: I
can't keep up with Goa's intrigues on Fri Jun 20 2008 along with my reply
to
him.
Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an "addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for "Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.
Goan Brahmin is broadly divided into two. One group is called Smarth (as
per
terminology used by you they are also called Addve Bamonn) who are
worshipers of Lord Shiva and are affiliated to Kavle Mutt. The other group
is called Vaishnav who are worshipers of Lord Vishnu and are affiliated to
Partagal Mutt.
This being reality how come you say Manohar Parrikar is - Addvo Bamonn -
andyet you say that he is affiliated to Partagal Mutt! I think you will
have
to do some more research on above information provided by you before you
confuse Selma any further.
So with the above proof provided to you still want to say that - He (Miguel
Braganza) has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a
statement
that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious
sensitivities. Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.
Therefore I feel what Dr. Anil Desai replied to Miguel under above subject
is appropriate and much disserved. Just don't take up for Miguel Braganza
when he is on wrong side.
Secondly Dr. Anil Desai did good thing by providing dictionary meaning of
what Bigot is.
Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:19:24 +0400
From: "[Edu's World]" <edwardlopes7 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] GOAN ROAST PORK WITH BASMATI PILAF
To: "edward lopes" <edwardlopes7 at gmail.com>
<d92a73680806300619i4f802393wcef1f784c1889a0b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
*GOAN ROAST PORK WITH BASMATI PILAF*
*Servings*
*Serves 8 to 10.*
*Ingredients*
6 pounds boneless pork loin with some fat
1 dried chili pepper, with seeds
1 pasilla pepper, with seeds
1/4 teaspoon peppercorns
3 cloves
1 teaspoon cumin seeds
1/2 teaspoon turmeric
1 3-inch cinnamon stick
1 1/2-inch piece of ginger
1 whole fresh green chili pepper, roasted over an open flame and peeled
(leave seeds in pepper)
2 cups chopped cilantro leaves, washed very well and chopped
8 cloves garlic
5 tablespoons cider vinegar
1/4 cup dark rum
2 tablespoons salt
1/2 teaspoon sugar
3 cups basmati rice, picked over, washed well, and soaked in lukewarm water
for 15 minutes
1 chicken bouillon cube
3 tablespoons canola oil
1 cinnamon stick, broken into 3 or 4 pieces
4 cloves
2 bay leaves
2 medium-size onions, finely minced
3 plum tomatoes, cored and diced
Salt to taste
*Cooking Instructions*
Grind the dried chili and pasilla peppers, peppercorns, cloves, cumin,
turmeric, and cinnamon stick in a spice or coffee grinder until fine. Place
the ginger, green chili, cilantro, garlic, vinegar, rum, salt, and sugar in
a blender, and pur?e. Add the ground spices, and pulse quickly. Rub the
mixture all over the pork loin, and allow to marinate for at least 12 hours
in the refrigerator. Remove the pork from refrigerator 2 hours before
cooking.
Preheat oven to 325 degrees. Place the spice-rubbed pork loin on a rack set
in a roasting pan. Roast for approximately 1 hour and 45 minutes or until
internal temperature reaches 130 to 135 degrees on an instant-read
thermometer. Allow to rest for 20 minutes (temperature will rise another 10
degrees). Slice, and serve with Goan basmati pilaf (instructions below).
Drain the rice in a colander. Bring 5 cups water to a boil, add the
bouillon
cube, and allow it to dissolve.
Heat the oil over medium heat in a large stewpot. When it starts to
shimmer,
add the cinnamon and cloves, and heat them until they become fragrant. Add
the bay leaves and onion, and saut? until onion becomes translucent. Add
the
drained rice, and cook over medium heat for 3 to 4 minutes more, stirring
constantly. Add the boiling bouillon and the tomatoes, and season with
salt.
Continue to cook, stirring occasionally and gently, until most of the
liquid
is absorbed, about 10 minutes. Cover, remove from heat, let stand for 15 to
20 minutes, then stir gently with a roasting fork.
edu
edwardlopes7 at gmail.com
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:57:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: JoeGoaUk <joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [Goanet] Talking Photos: Where in Goa is this?
To: goanet at goanet.org
Cc: goan-nri at yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <340303.87142.qm at web25906.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Talking Photos: Where is this?
All about roads, railways, trains, bridges, tanks etc
To your right is this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616287228/sizes/l/
This is to your left
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2615458853/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616287518/sizes/l/
and this is from the over-bridge
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2616286614/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joegoauk1/2623453485/sizes/l/
- Not a Konkan Railway Route
Joegoauk at yahoo.co.uk
for Goa & NRI related info...
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/
For Goan Video Clips
http://youtube.com/joeukgoa
__________________________________________________________
Not happy with your email address?.
Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now
at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:39:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: pramod kale <pram203 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] [Goanet-News] NEWS: Indian newspapers fall for
baroque Nazi war criminal hoax
To: goanet at goanet.org
Message-ID: <699784.78872.qm at web56013.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Come on,let's have some fun and not leave it all to Brothers Reliance.
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
From: Goanet News <news.goanet at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet-News] NEWS: Indian newspapers fall for baroque Nazi war
criminal hoax
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
To: "Goanet" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>, goanet-news at goanet.org
Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 1:21 PM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
**** http://www.GOANET.org ****
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to
Mon (June 30)
At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2008/06/30/indian-newspapers-fall-for-baroque-nazi-war-criminal-hoax/
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
June 30th, 2008
Indian newspapers fall for baroque Nazi war criminal hoax
Post a comment (5)
Posted by: Jonathan Allen
Tags: Critical Eye, hoaxes, India, media
You would think a press release about a German Nazi war
criminal named
Johann Bach being caught in the jungles of Goa after trying
to sell a
stolen 18th-century piano would be worth double-checking.
A reconstruction of the head of 18th-century German
composer Johann
Sebastian Bach, who is not known to have visited
Goa.Nonetheless, the
press release has been regurgitated on the front pages of
the Deccan
Herald and the Indian Express and inside the Telegraph,
citing Perus
Narkp, "the intelligence wing of the Berlin-based
German Chancellor's
Core (sic)", as the source.
Perus Narkp, a not especially Germanic name, is an anagram
of "Super Prank".
The organisation's motto, printed at the top of the
press release, is
"Eht rea enp cabk skripc" ? clearly not the
language of Goethe or
Virgil, but another anagram: "The Pen Pricks are
back".
The Pen Pricks, who run a blog skewering the Goan press,
promised
readers on Sunday they were about to break a "big,
Big, BIg, BIG"
story. It looks like they succeeded. Still, it should not
take
pranksters to remind us that gullibility is a dangerous
flaw in
journalism.
It takes Google only 0.13 seconds to establish that the
Marsha Tikash
Whanaab concentration camp at which Bach was apparently
posted does
not exist. The Express reporter, at least, telephoned the
German
embassy and Indian police for comment. The fact they had no
idea what
the reporter was talking about did not deter publication.
Only the
Times of India gave even a hint that it smelt something
fishy, but ran
a story all the same.
(I don't want to seem like I'm recklessly throwing
stones in a glass
house: no organisation is immune to occasional lapses in
journalistic
perfection, as readers of the Reuters' blog Good, Bad,
and Ugly may be
aware.)
I asked Ramakrishna Upadhya, a senior editor at the Deccan
Herald,
what might have gone wrong.
"We all believed that it was real because it had so
many details," he
said about the press release. "They should have been
cross-checked,"
he added.
He said he is investigating what happened, and that the
paper will run
a correction if necessary.
An official at the German embassy in New Delhi very
politely said they
were looking into what happened but considered it too soon
to declare
it a hoax.
I have tried to e-mail the Pen Pricks. I'll let you
know if I get any response.
Hopefully this was a singular blip and from now on we can
once again
believe every word we read in the press.
ENDS
End of Goanet Digest, Vol 3, Issue 808
**************************************
anil desai
2008-06-29 16:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Dear Goanetters,

I have been contributing to goanet for several months now and I have
expressed my concerns about bigoted views expressed by some individuals on
this forum. this should be of concern to all of us.

I quote below the dictionary definition of Bigot below:

*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]

1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]

2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.

To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.

Now consider how Miguel Braganza has been writing about the infamous VCD and
expressing his anguish about the pain felt by Catholics.

Then in a recent post he wrote thus:

Manohar Parrikar cannot be an incarnation of Vishnu. He is an
"addvo Bamonn" affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a Shiva worshipper [Hence,perhaps, Rajan
Parrikar's phallic fetish].

My response

It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion but apply to
politics as well. So, go on. Let us have more of your incoherent rants.


Anil Desai
Carvalho
2008-06-29 17:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by anil desai
It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be
profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like
myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to
know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion
------------------------------
Dear Dr Desai,

It is interesting to note that of all the bigoted, xenophobic people that abound on Goanet, you choose to admonish Miguel Branganza for being a bigot. Isn't it convenient what we find offensive in life?

Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how you brand people on this board.

You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is, unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.

selma
Carvalho
2008-06-29 18:44:03 UTC
Permalink
February 24th, 2003 was a day my husband and I celebrated being Indian. It wasn?t earmarked on our calendar for any particular reason save for the fact that we landed at Chicago bus station in the early morning of that day.

Chicago is one of the two states in the US that offers consular services for Indians and we being in need of some paperwork, had decided to take the Greyhound from Minnesota, through Wisconsin into Chicago. We ventured outside the terminal into the blistering cold of a Chicago winter morning to find ourselves amidst a sea of fellow bus-travelers who were all awaiting taxis to ferry them onwards. The probability of us finding a taxi was slim and so we braced ourselves for a long wait in the cold.

Chicago is a stark and forbidding city at the best of times, not particularly renowned for its benevolence to strangers. While my husband and I awaited with frozen fingers, toes and hearts, a taxi-cab whizzed past the crowds, swerved in front of us and offered us a ride. We were slightly embarrassed as it is not the done thing in America to bump the queue but we were desperate and jumped into the cab without asking too many questions.

The young driver was Indian. His single question to us was if we were from India, to which we replied in the affirmative. We don?t know which part of India he hailed from, presumably up North, nor do we know what prompted this young man into this act of kindness. Perhaps he felt sorry for bedraggled looking Indians standing at the bus station. Perhaps somewhere inside him was a desire to reach out and help fellow countrymen, however recessed the memory of that country and his association with it may have been.

Beyond the religiocentric and ethnocentric identities of India, there is a larger nation-centric identity that exists for us Indians and it manifests itself most emphatically when we are outside of India. Infact our largesse spreads even to Sri Lankans, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis, reveling in a certain Indian sub-continental kinship. Why then do we turn inwards and fragment so easily within the boundaries of India itself?

selma
Venantius Pinto
2008-06-29 19:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Anil,
So you are actually expressly soliciting incoherent remarks --you are
perhaps not joking?

Miguel's remark about the phallic fetish was said in context to Rajan text
where he used the word ejaculate. You know that don't you, This word along
with ejaculation has more than one meaning and is often employed as
double-entendre (double meaning, in Marathi koddea ni bolna) by those in
possession of sharp-wit. Do make an analogy between what these stalwarts
were engaging in. Miguels was a retort to Rajan. They both know what they
are saying. What purpose will it serve Anil for you to bring this up? Convey
your hurt in a way that will bring your cause understanding, rather than
applying a higher factor to it and inviting incoherent remarks. If something
really hurt me, I would say it. Now you are not me (in a way we are though
going by the highest tenets of Dharma and sangha), but still you have better
language than my feeble attempts to put things across, Its like Bush saying,
"Bring it on," which is crude and does not accomplish much by way of
bringing people together. Unless that is not the intent.

Btw, ithyphallic is a proud amd reverential term at least in Art History. It
was regarded as indecent by Victorians, as were other words that defeaned
their senses and jolted their false realities as the public face of that
society. Furthermore, there are paintings depicting the naked Christ with
exposed genitalia (conveying the aspect of becoming man), that is, before
the Christian world turned relatively prude. In the past aside from the
hedonism, ithyphallic gods like Bacchus who were considered too salacious
for timid minds and newer societies. I have not to my knowledge, come across
a Goanetter who has has regarded Shiva (Rudra, Mahesh, and his 1008 names)
in crude and crafty light.

I will not participate any further in this discussion if my views are placed
in poor light.


Venantius



Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:43:02 +0100
From: "anil desai" <anildesa at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Bigotry on goanet - and Miguel Braganza
Dear Goanetters,
I have been contributing to goanet for several months now and I have
expressed my concerns about bigoted views expressed by some individuals on
this forum. this should be of concern to all of us.
*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name once given to the
Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]
2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing
from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party,
belief, or opinion.
To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and believe. --Macaulay.
Now consider how Miguel Braganza has been writing about the infamous VCD
and
expressing his anguish about the pain felt by Catholics.
Manohar Parrikar cannot be an incarnation of Vishnu. He is an
"addvo Bamonn" affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a Shiva worshipper [Hence,perhaps, Rajan
Parrikar's phallic fetish].
My response
It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly
offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa
and outside, isnt it? Miguel, what should interest you to know is that
bigoted views of bigots are not just restricted to religion but apply to
politics as well. So, go on. Let us have more of your incoherent rants.
Anil Desai
Gilbert Lawrence
2008-06-30 00:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Venantius post?likely puts?Miguel's remarks in context and sheds some light.? Miguel can expand the context in which he used the remarks.
?
However even if used 'in context', the fact that those comments offended the religious sentiment of an individual or a?section of a community makes it wrong.? Just because Rajan used it in his text, does not permit another to show lack of sensitivity and good judgment.?One wrong does not justify another wrong, (intended or unintended), especially when there is no coherence to the exact point being made.
?
Goans (both Catholics and Hindus) have a very difficult time to say "I am sorry".? Permit?me to extend an unqualified apology to Anil and other Hindus for an unwarranted and crude reference to their religion.??
?
Thanks for providing the?definition of "Bigotry".? ?With that definition, one can be a bigot about ones own religion by having?"views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right," and considering contrary views "differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked".
?
Regards, GL
?
------------ Venantius Pinto

Miguel's remark about the phallic fetish was said in context to Rajan text where he used the word ejaculate. You know that don't you, ......?
Do make an analogy between what these stalwarts were engaging in. Miguels was a retort to Rajan.
Btw, ithy phallic is a proud amd reverential term at least in Art History.

--------------- anil desai
?
Bigot - A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as?unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing?from?them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is?intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or?morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.
?
?It is alright to make any derogatory remarks that would be profoundly?offensive to thousands of Shiva worshippers and Hindus like myself in Goa?and outside, isnt it?
Santosh Helekar
2008-06-30 05:40:03 UTC
Permalink
The following definitions ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.

Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has carefully avoided being a hypocrite.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by anil desai
*Bigot*
Big"ot\, n. [F. bigot a bigot or hypocrite, a name
once given to the Normans
in France. Of unknown origin; possibly akin to Sp. bigote a
whisker; hombre
de bigote a man of spirit and vigor; cf. It. s-bigottire to
terrify, to
appall. Wedgwood and others maintain that bigot is from the
same source as
Beguine, Beghard.]
1. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]
2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters
of religion as
unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to
or differing from
them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a
person who is
intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in
politics or
morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own
church, party,
belief, or opinion.
To doubt, where bigots had been content to wonder and
believe. --Macaulay.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-06-30 06:57:52 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Carvalho
Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT.
Miguel Braganza's many instances of bigotry against
bamons are to be found in the Goanet archives. Selma
Cardozo seems to have taken pains to deceive herself
before deceiving others. Perplexing, for someone who
makes a song & dance about her own integrity.

But Miguel Braganza is much more than a vanilla bigot.
He is a purveyor of falsehoods, and a coward to boot.
To cite but one instance: he reported on Goanet some
days back that I verbally abused him at Cafe Prakash.
Guilty as charged. It was a great pleasure. However,
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.

Soter D'Souza and I were sitting on one table and
Braganza on the other. He had made claims here
on Goanet that the Goa People's Assembly was a
plot hatched by saffron forces/BJP/Manohar Parrikar,
and that Soter had been cleverly manipulated and
controlled by me in service of the saffron lobby's
nefarious ends.

Now that the principals - Soter and I - in this alleged
conspiracy were all in one room, I asked Miguel
Braganza to lay out his evidence for the claims
he had publicly made. He had nothing to show.
Nada. Shoonya. Zifr. All we got were strange
sounds like "Bup. Bup. Glug. Glug." The tiger behind
the keyboard and in the safety of his home had
suddenly turned into a mouse. It was then that
Soter and I both administered to him a verbal
shower laced with invective. He was back the
next morning on Goanet bawling like a baby,
with more of his Looney Tunes.

That's Miguel Braganza for you. Now back to
the regularly scheduled programming.

Warm regards,


r
JOHN MONTEIRO
2008-06-30 11:18:49 UTC
Permalink
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.

Phew, that was close, I'd be damned if I could think of anyone who would be
classified as a non-bigot on this forum, until now.

Could I be wrong? On this forum, surely!

John Monteiro

------------------------------------------
Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net> wrote: The following definitions
ensure that almost everybody is a bigot. According to them every hypocrite
is a bigot. Faithful followers of all religions that regard only their own
teachings as unquestionably right, are bigots. Every pious individual who
does not follow the cafeteria approach is a bigot. So is a lout like me who
contends that all superstitious views and opinions are unreasonable.
Perhaps, the only person who would escape that branding is a highly
exceptional postmodernist and moral relativist, assuming that he/she has
carefully avoided being a hypocrite. Cheers, Santosh
-----------------------------------------------






Regards
John Monteiro
Carvalho
2008-06-30 12:40:59 UTC
Permalink
--- On Mon, 6/30/08, Rajan P. Parrikar <parrikar at yahoo.com> wrote:

However,
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
what Miguel Braganza conveniently did not disclose are
the circumstances that preceded that verbal spray.
--------------------------------------------
Rajan,
I have no idea and of late only a marginal interest in who is spraying whom in Goa. To the spectator's eye there seems to be a lot of spraying going on.

Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on goanet.

regards,
selma
Dr. U. G. Barad
2008-06-30 12:41:19 UTC
Permalink
This message is in reply to Selma's (Elisabeth Carvalho) message No 2, dated
Sunday 29th Jun 2008 written as reply to Dr. Anil Desai's message on above
subject.

Selma writes while extending all the possible support to Miguel Braganza: -

Miguel Braganza is NOT A BIGOT. He has to my knowledge never made and is
unlikely to make a statement that can be even remotely be construed as
offensive to religious sensitivities. Please be very,very careful about how
you brand people on this board.

You needn't have given us the dictionary meaning of what a bigot is,
unfortunately we all know too well who bigots are.

MY REPLY TO SELMA'S MESSAGE IS:

Selma, please read what Miguel Braganza had written under subject titled: I
can't keep up with Goa's intrigues on Fri Jun 20 2008 along with my reply to
him.

Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an "addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for "Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.

And my reply to that writing was:

Goan Brahmin is broadly divided into two. One group is called Smarth (as per
terminology used by you they are also called Addve Bamonn) who are
worshipers of Lord Shiva and are affiliated to Kavle Mutt. The other group
is called Vaishnav who are worshipers of Lord Vishnu and are affiliated to
Partagal Mutt.

This being reality how come you say Manohar Parrikar is - Addvo Bamonn -
andyet you say that he is affiliated to Partagal Mutt! I think you will have
to do some more research on above information provided by you before you
confuse Selma any further.

NOW MY REPLY TO SELMA IS:

So with the above proof provided to you still want to say that - He (Miguel
Braganza) has to my knowledge never made and is unlikely to make a statement
that can be even remotely be construed as offensive to religious
sensitivities. Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.

Therefore I feel what Dr. Anil Desai replied to Miguel under above subject
is appropriate and much disserved. Just don't take up for Miguel Braganza
when he is on wrong side.

Secondly Dr. Anil Desai did good thing by providing dictionary meaning of
what Bigot is.

Best regards,
Dr. U. G. Barad
Santosh Helekar
2008-06-30 19:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by JOHN MONTEIRO
I guess this means the greatly admired & idolised artist Mr Husain is the
only living human being that is not a bigot then.
Please explain how. Are you sure M. F. Hussain is a postmodern moral relativist who is not a hypocrite? If he believes that Hindu Janajagruti Samiti's opinions are unreasonable, then he is a bigot.

I cannot tell who on Goanet is not a bigot according to those dictionary definitions.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2008-06-30 20:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. U. G. Barad
Miguel Braganza had written - Manohar Parrikar ...He is an
"addvo Bamonn"
affiliated to Partagal Mutt [not to be confused for
"Portugal"] and so is a
Shiva worshipper.
Yes Selma, above writing of Miguel is of
Post by Dr. U. G. Barad
religious
sensitivity!! And both Hindu groups i.e. Smarth (Shiva
worshiper) and
Vaishnav (Vishnu Worshiper)are equally disturbed.
---------------------------------------------------
Really Dotor Barad?

Shiva and Vishnu worshipers in Goa have nothing better to be disturbed about then Miguel mistakenly saying Parriker is a Shiva worshipper? Perhaps they think so little of Parriker that neither of them want him as either a Shiva or a Vishnu worshiper.

Don't be ridiculous. Nobody thought anything about that statement until Rajan Parriker and Miguel Braganza had a falling out in some Goan cafe. Seriously, I think the Goan intelligentsia should stop hanging out at the same cafe.

Now, all of a sudden Dr Desai wakes up two weeks after the initial statement was made and tells us that he is greatly offended by Miguel's innocent slip-up. Was there any intent on Miguel's part to be insensitive? Was there any intent on Miguel's part to denigrate the Hindu religion or cause offense to Shiva or Vishnu worshipers? Was Miguel being disrespectful to either Shiva or Vishnu?

The answer to all these questions is a big fat NO. And the reason I am being so vehement about this is because it is precisely these sort of allegations that have led to so much communal discord in India. Because of our political difference, we erect religious bogeymen and then it is easy to invoke emotions, create smokescreens and cause general mayhem.

It is irresponsible behaviour gentlemen, irresponsible to the core and as citizens of India, we truly have to be ashamed of ourselves. Surely, half a century of independence should have produced betters citizens.

selma
anil desai
2008-06-30 18:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Selma wrote:
Desai accused Miguel of being a religious bigot and that is not kosher. I
have never read anything remotely insensitive coming from Miguel's sprays. I
have written a lot of insensitive things aimed at every religion under the
sun but can't think what Miguel has written that can be construed as
bigotted. If there has been then let us have it presented as evidence. We
cannot invoke religious sentiments everyime our political ideologies
diverge. That is how communal tension begins in India and certainly on
goanet.

Response:

Dear Selma,

Read my post again. I will give you a clue. The evidence is there in his
comment on Rajan's religious affiliation. If you do not understand it, ask
Miguel. I am sure he will be only too pleased to explain how offensive he
wanted to be to Rajan and not thousands but millions of other worshippers of
Lord Shiva scattered all over the world.

Quite frankly, his religious bigotry does not bother me so much. That is a
fairly common currency in almost all religions, hinduism included. His
bigoted writings on socio-political issues do bother me.

Anil Desai

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