Discussion:
Smiles and flowers greet Marines
(too old to reply)
Carmo Dias
2003-04-10 16:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!

Smiles and flowers greet Marines
Reuters |Baghdad | 10-04-2003
?Gulf News

Hundreds of jubilant Iraqis mobbed a convoy of U.S. Marines yesterday,
cheering, dancing and waving as American troops swept towards central
Baghdad through slums and leafy suburbs from the east.

Crowds threw flowers at the Marines as they drove past the Martyrs'
Monument, just three km east of the central Jumhuriya Bridge over the Tigris
river.

Young and middle-aged men, many wearing soccer shirts of leading Western
clubs like Manchester United, shouted "Hello, hello" as Marines advanced
through the rundown sprawl of Saddam City and then more prosperous suburbs
with villas and trim lawns.

"No more Saddam Hussain," chanted one group, waving to troops as they
passed. "We love you, we love you."

One young man ran alongside a Marine armoured personnel carrier trying to
hand over a heavy belt of ammunition.

An older man made a wild kicking gesture with his foot, saying "Goodbye
Saddam".

Women waved from balconies, girls threw flower petals at young Marines
leaning across gun turrets. One woman held her baby aloft. Tank crews
picked the flowers from the tops of their fighting machines, smelt them and
grinned.

One man shouted to a soldier: "Is it over?".

"Almost," came the Marine's reply.

"To be honest, I'm happy it appears they're not going to fight. I was a
little nervous when the crowd was so exuberant, we've heard so much about
suicide bombings and drive-by shootings," said Captain Dan Rose.

"We are the lead regiment now. We are the furthest forward of anyone,"
Colonel John Toolan, commander of 1st Marine Regiment, told Reuters.

"I believe we are on the last leg."

At one point, the Marine convoy of over a dozen armoured vehicles halted,
spotting a blue flat-bed truck partly concealed behind a high brick wall.

Within seconds, U.S. heavy machineguns had taken it out causing a huge
explosion, sending up a fireball and scattering the crowds who ran for
cover.

Moments later, Marines came across four "ready to fire" SA-2 missiles
covered by tarpaulin by the roadside.

Earlier, U.S. tanks simply ran over any small arm weaponry they found and
destroyed abandoned heavy artillery pieces.

Lance Corporal Justin Cleaves, 26, having his photograph taken next to the
SA-2 missiles, said: "It was pretty crazy coming through all those people
throwing flowers. They were real happy to see us. "It looks as though the
(Iraqi) troops just dropped everything and ran," he said.

There were no Iraqi soldiers or police in sight. People in the crowds said
the troops had left on Tuesday.

Nearer Baghdad centre, people were everywhere, running across roads and down
narrow side streets carrying whatever they could lay their hands on.

Cars and trucks heaved and spluttered, piled high with furniture,
refrigerators, clothing, tyres ? all apparently looted from shops and
government offices.

"I'm happy to be here, but a little disappointed there weren't more soldiers
to fight...still, it's a good feeling knowing people are that afraid of us,"
said 32-year-old Sergeant Brian Dow. "I kinda felt like Madonna there,
having flowers thown at me."

Kuwaiti television, meanwhile, trumpeted the joy of Iraqis after the fall of
Baghdad to U.S. troops, with a presenter saying it is a "slap in the face"
to those Arabs who sided with Saddam Hussain.

Other Arab media were more subdued about the U.S. military success in Iraq.
Kuwait Television showed footage of an old Iraqi man using his shoe to hit a
poster of Saddam Hussain and screaming "This is freedom!"

The state channel's presenter voiced over the clip: "This is a slap in the
face to all those who believed Saddam Hussain could stay in power."

Kuwait has been heavily criticised in the Arab world in recent weeks for
being the only Arab country to openly back the U.S. invasion of Iraq and for
granting the United States use of its territory to launch the offensive.

"This is the day of great jubilation, the day of rebuilding Iraq," a member
of the London-based Iraqi opposition, Faek Sheik Ali, told Kuwaiti
television.

Ali applauded Kuwait's media for their coverage of the war, saying Iraqi
dissidents were baffled as to why other Arab channels had supported a
dictator against his people.

Few Arab television stations outside Kuwait have hosted Iraqis who opposed
the rule of Saddam Hussain.

On Wednesday, the popular Al-Jazeera satellite channel reported that
American tanks had taken up position in front of the Palestine Hotel, where
foreign journalists are based and where Iraqi Information Minister Mohamm-ed
Saeed Al Sahhaf gave a press conference Tuesday.

"The surreal scene this afternoon was unthinkable until yesterday. Nobody
could dream of it. If someone had told me this, I would have told him
'impossible'," said Al-Jazeera's reporter Maher Abdullah.

Abdullah said the U.S. troops were "friendly ... there is a kind of strange
harmony between the invading force, now occupying force, and the citizens
... An unusual and unexpected calm."

At one point, Abdullah referred to a Saddam monument as a statue of "the
former president."

Iraqi exiles living in London stormed the former Iraqi embassy in the
capital.government in Baghdad. The embassy has stood empty since Britain
ordered Iraq's last diplomat in London, who worked at a scaled-down mission
called an Interests Section under the umbrella of the Jordanian Embassy, to
leave the country last month.

"They had to force entry but it was a peaceful takeover," Zuhair Al Maher, a
member of the Iraqi opposition and one of the organisers, said. "There are
about 60 of us and our intention is to publicise our relief and jubilation
at the downfall of Saddam's regime.""

A spokeswoman for London police said they had made more than 20 arrests for
criminal damage but were still dealing with the incident in west London. "It
is still hard to take in but this is one of the happiest days in the history
of the Iraqi people," Al Maher said.


_________________________________________________________________
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-11 11:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to see
in the future?

In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa. We know what
happened for the next four hundred years.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-11 22:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to
see
in the future? In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa.
We know what happened for the next four hundred years. Tariq Siddiqui

Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'? Well if they went to the Arab
countries that they supposedly admire, they would not be given a right
to vote or even called citizens after spending a lifetime of
contribution. Instead of crying about how depraved these victims are
(and they are depraved!) how about doing something practical and working
physically for their cause instead of sitting in front of the computer
in the comforts of our study. I suggest taking our next vacation and
volunteer to serve the people in Iraq. Let's see some GoaNetters put
some of our money and efforts where our thoughts are. As they say- talk
is cheap or let's walk the talk. Regards GL
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-12 18:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'?
This is the age old tactic used to silence dissent - love it or leave it.
Therefore, according to Mr. Lawrence, my stay in the USA is on the
condition that I do not raise my voice against what I believe are the
wrong policies of this administration.

Once again what we see here is a reflection of the current mood that is
sweeping through the US. That is, if you are not with the US in this war,
then you must be supporting Saddam Hussein and other Arabs (nice way to
generalize I notice).

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-12 18:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'?
This is the age old tactic used to silence dissent - love it or leave it.
Therefore, according to Mr. Lawrence, my stay in the USA is on the
condition that I do not raise my voice against what I believe are the
wrong policies of this administration.

Once again what we see here is a reflection of the current mood that is
sweeping through the US. That is, if you are not with the US in this war,
then you must be supporting Saddam Hussein and other Arabs (nice way to
generalize I notice).

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-12 18:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'?
This is the age old tactic used to silence dissent - love it or leave it.
Therefore, according to Mr. Lawrence, my stay in the USA is on the
condition that I do not raise my voice against what I believe are the
wrong policies of this administration.

Once again what we see here is a reflection of the current mood that is
sweeping through the US. That is, if you are not with the US in this war,
then you must be supporting Saddam Hussein and other Arabs (nice way to
generalize I notice).

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-12 18:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'?
This is the age old tactic used to silence dissent - love it or leave it.
Therefore, according to Mr. Lawrence, my stay in the USA is on the
condition that I do not raise my voice against what I believe are the
wrong policies of this administration.

Once again what we see here is a reflection of the current mood that is
sweeping through the US. That is, if you are not with the US in this war,
then you must be supporting Saddam Hussein and other Arabs (nice way to
generalize I notice).

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-12 18:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'?
This is the age old tactic used to silence dissent - love it or leave it.
Therefore, according to Mr. Lawrence, my stay in the USA is on the
condition that I do not raise my voice against what I believe are the
wrong policies of this administration.

Once again what we see here is a reflection of the current mood that is
sweeping through the US. That is, if you are not with the US in this war,
then you must be supporting Saddam Hussein and other Arabs (nice way to
generalize I notice).

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-12 18:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'?
This is the age old tactic used to silence dissent - love it or leave it.
Therefore, according to Mr. Lawrence, my stay in the USA is on the
condition that I do not raise my voice against what I believe are the
wrong policies of this administration.

Once again what we see here is a reflection of the current mood that is
sweeping through the US. That is, if you are not with the US in this war,
then you must be supporting Saddam Hussein and other Arabs (nice way to
generalize I notice).

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-12 18:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'?
This is the age old tactic used to silence dissent - love it or leave it.
Therefore, according to Mr. Lawrence, my stay in the USA is on the
condition that I do not raise my voice against what I believe are the
wrong policies of this administration.

Once again what we see here is a reflection of the current mood that is
sweeping through the US. That is, if you are not with the US in this war,
then you must be supporting Saddam Hussein and other Arabs (nice way to
generalize I notice).

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-12 21:57:58 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org [mailto:goanet-admin at goanet.org] On Behalf
Of Tariq Siddiqui
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 2:43 PM

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

Tariq Siddiqui

Response: Don't be sad. Do something about it. I suggest you take your
next vacation and help the Iraqis.

I did not know that the opposition to this Iraq war was linked to the
Portuguese 450 years ago in India (which you referred to). Again a very
selective reading of history. If you want to talk history, the next time
we talk of Portuguese in Goa, let's talk about the Muslim rule in Goa
and the Muslim rule in Portugal and Spain a hundred years prior to that.
I wonder how many smiles and flowers from the natives greeted these
invading armies. GL.
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-13 01:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: Don't be sad. Do something about it. I suggest you take your
next vacation and help the Iraqis.
As always, nothing is said to refute the points made. Instead, challenges
are made ostensibly to bring about a holier than thou attitude.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I did not know that the opposition to this Iraq war was linked to the
Portuguese 450 years ago in India (which you referred to). Again a very
selective reading of history. If you want to talk history, the next time
we talk of Portuguese in Goa, let's talk about the Muslim rule in Goa
and the Muslim rule in Portugal and Spain a hundred years prior to that.
I wonder how many smiles and flowers from the natives greeted these
invading armies. GL.
The connection is an obvious reference to colonialism. Its disappointing
that after all the discussion you have failed to grasp that.

You are free to discuss Muslim rule in Goa, Portugal or Spain. I don't
think the moderators of this forum have any restrictions on topics.
If I disagree with any of your observations, I will try and point those
out, knowledge permitting of course.

However, if such discussions are a response to my reference to Portuguese
rule, then I am afraid you are doing disservice to history and the topic
at hand.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-13 01:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: Don't be sad. Do something about it. I suggest you take your
next vacation and help the Iraqis.
As always, nothing is said to refute the points made. Instead, challenges
are made ostensibly to bring about a holier than thou attitude.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I did not know that the opposition to this Iraq war was linked to the
Portuguese 450 years ago in India (which you referred to). Again a very
selective reading of history. If you want to talk history, the next time
we talk of Portuguese in Goa, let's talk about the Muslim rule in Goa
and the Muslim rule in Portugal and Spain a hundred years prior to that.
I wonder how many smiles and flowers from the natives greeted these
invading armies. GL.
The connection is an obvious reference to colonialism. Its disappointing
that after all the discussion you have failed to grasp that.

You are free to discuss Muslim rule in Goa, Portugal or Spain. I don't
think the moderators of this forum have any restrictions on topics.
If I disagree with any of your observations, I will try and point those
out, knowledge permitting of course.

However, if such discussions are a response to my reference to Portuguese
rule, then I am afraid you are doing disservice to history and the topic
at hand.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-13 01:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: Don't be sad. Do something about it. I suggest you take your
next vacation and help the Iraqis.
As always, nothing is said to refute the points made. Instead, challenges
are made ostensibly to bring about a holier than thou attitude.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I did not know that the opposition to this Iraq war was linked to the
Portuguese 450 years ago in India (which you referred to). Again a very
selective reading of history. If you want to talk history, the next time
we talk of Portuguese in Goa, let's talk about the Muslim rule in Goa
and the Muslim rule in Portugal and Spain a hundred years prior to that.
I wonder how many smiles and flowers from the natives greeted these
invading armies. GL.
The connection is an obvious reference to colonialism. Its disappointing
that after all the discussion you have failed to grasp that.

You are free to discuss Muslim rule in Goa, Portugal or Spain. I don't
think the moderators of this forum have any restrictions on topics.
If I disagree with any of your observations, I will try and point those
out, knowledge permitting of course.

However, if such discussions are a response to my reference to Portuguese
rule, then I am afraid you are doing disservice to history and the topic
at hand.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-13 01:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: Don't be sad. Do something about it. I suggest you take your
next vacation and help the Iraqis.
As always, nothing is said to refute the points made. Instead, challenges
are made ostensibly to bring about a holier than thou attitude.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I did not know that the opposition to this Iraq war was linked to the
Portuguese 450 years ago in India (which you referred to). Again a very
selective reading of history. If you want to talk history, the next time
we talk of Portuguese in Goa, let's talk about the Muslim rule in Goa
and the Muslim rule in Portugal and Spain a hundred years prior to that.
I wonder how many smiles and flowers from the natives greeted these
invading armies. GL.
The connection is an obvious reference to colonialism. Its disappointing
that after all the discussion you have failed to grasp that.

You are free to discuss Muslim rule in Goa, Portugal or Spain. I don't
think the moderators of this forum have any restrictions on topics.
If I disagree with any of your observations, I will try and point those
out, knowledge permitting of course.

However, if such discussions are a response to my reference to Portuguese
rule, then I am afraid you are doing disservice to history and the topic
at hand.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-13 01:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: Don't be sad. Do something about it. I suggest you take your
next vacation and help the Iraqis.
As always, nothing is said to refute the points made. Instead, challenges
are made ostensibly to bring about a holier than thou attitude.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I did not know that the opposition to this Iraq war was linked to the
Portuguese 450 years ago in India (which you referred to). Again a very
selective reading of history. If you want to talk history, the next time
we talk of Portuguese in Goa, let's talk about the Muslim rule in Goa
and the Muslim rule in Portugal and Spain a hundred years prior to that.
I wonder how many smiles and flowers from the natives greeted these
invading armies. GL.
The connection is an obvious reference to colonialism. Its disappointing
that after all the discussion you have failed to grasp that.

You are free to discuss Muslim rule in Goa, Portugal or Spain. I don't
think the moderators of this forum have any restrictions on topics.
If I disagree with any of your observations, I will try and point those
out, knowledge permitting of course.

However, if such discussions are a response to my reference to Portuguese
rule, then I am afraid you are doing disservice to history and the topic
at hand.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-13 01:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Response: Don't be sad. Do something about it. I suggest you take your
next vacation and help the Iraqis.
As always, nothing is said to refute the points made. Instead, challenges
are made ostensibly to bring about a holier than thou attitude.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I did not know that the opposition to this Iraq war was linked to the
Portuguese 450 years ago in India (which you referred to). Again a very
selective reading of history. If you want to talk history, the next time
we talk of Portuguese in Goa, let's talk about the Muslim rule in Goa
and the Muslim rule in Portugal and Spain a hundred years prior to that.
I wonder how many smiles and flowers from the natives greeted these
invading armies. GL.
The connection is an obvious reference to colonialism. Its disappointing
that after all the discussion you have failed to grasp that.

You are free to discuss Muslim rule in Goa, Portugal or Spain. I don't
think the moderators of this forum have any restrictions on topics.
If I disagree with any of your observations, I will try and point those
out, knowledge permitting of course.

However, if such discussions are a response to my reference to Portuguese
rule, then I am afraid you are doing disservice to history and the topic
at hand.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-13 00:33:50 UTC
Permalink
The following was an excellent and informative news article.
The biggest injustice against Muslims today is undertaken by the Muslim
governments against their own kin. Of the more than 50 Muslim countries
in the world only three have true democratic governments - Turkey,
Bangladesh and Malaysia. Of the many Arab and Muslim friends that I
have, I notice they are very articulate and intelligent. But they appear
to be paralyzed in thought and action when it comes to facing their own.
It is unconscionable that the prior Afghanistan Government should have
destroyed the Buddhist statues of the sixth century BCE while the rest
of the Muslim (and Christian) world just stood-by.

There is absolutely no rationale for functioning monarchies in the 21t
century appointing their kin as Prime ministers. Similarly, there is no
rational basis for the Arab countries not to give citizenship to the
people who live, work and give their blood and life for the place. They
should at least give citizenship to other Arabs and Muslims. That should
be a first place to start fighting for justice for the Arabs. Regards GL


Muslim-Christian Unity need of the hour:


MUSLIMS and Christians have to jointly fight against
the injustices perpetrated against Palestinians and
Iraqis, noted Islamic scholar Sheikh Dr Yusuf
al-Qaradawi said. Dr Qaradawi was speaking to a
Catholic delegation from Vatican, who visited him
yesterday along with Public Health Minister HE Dr
Hajar Ahmed Hajar, at the Hamad Hospital, where he is recovering from a
surgery.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-13 04:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Tariq:
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful, may
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule of
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who are
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-13 20:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful, may
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule of
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who are
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
I apologize if such renderings on my part have hurt your feelings. That
was not my intention. As I have maintained always, it does not bother me a
bit what the nature of Portuguese rule was, and the consequences of this
rule. However, this does not mean that there cannot be any
discussion of Portuguese rule in Goa.

If I am misinformed on Portuguese rule in Goa, please feel free to correct
me. Jorge Noronha is the only person on this forum who I notice, takes
the effort to impassionately try and correct some of the errors that
creep up during these discussions. This is how you serve and protect your
heritage, not by issuing rejoinders on Muslim Sultans only because I am a
Muslim.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-13 20:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful, may
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule of
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who are
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
I apologize if such renderings on my part have hurt your feelings. That
was not my intention. As I have maintained always, it does not bother me a
bit what the nature of Portuguese rule was, and the consequences of this
rule. However, this does not mean that there cannot be any
discussion of Portuguese rule in Goa.

If I am misinformed on Portuguese rule in Goa, please feel free to correct
me. Jorge Noronha is the only person on this forum who I notice, takes
the effort to impassionately try and correct some of the errors that
creep up during these discussions. This is how you serve and protect your
heritage, not by issuing rejoinders on Muslim Sultans only because I am a
Muslim.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-13 20:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful, may
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule of
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who are
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
I apologize if such renderings on my part have hurt your feelings. That
was not my intention. As I have maintained always, it does not bother me a
bit what the nature of Portuguese rule was, and the consequences of this
rule. However, this does not mean that there cannot be any
discussion of Portuguese rule in Goa.

If I am misinformed on Portuguese rule in Goa, please feel free to correct
me. Jorge Noronha is the only person on this forum who I notice, takes
the effort to impassionately try and correct some of the errors that
creep up during these discussions. This is how you serve and protect your
heritage, not by issuing rejoinders on Muslim Sultans only because I am a
Muslim.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-13 20:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful, may
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule of
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who are
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
I apologize if such renderings on my part have hurt your feelings. That
was not my intention. As I have maintained always, it does not bother me a
bit what the nature of Portuguese rule was, and the consequences of this
rule. However, this does not mean that there cannot be any
discussion of Portuguese rule in Goa.

If I am misinformed on Portuguese rule in Goa, please feel free to correct
me. Jorge Noronha is the only person on this forum who I notice, takes
the effort to impassionately try and correct some of the errors that
creep up during these discussions. This is how you serve and protect your
heritage, not by issuing rejoinders on Muslim Sultans only because I am a
Muslim.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-13 20:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful, may
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule of
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who are
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
I apologize if such renderings on my part have hurt your feelings. That
was not my intention. As I have maintained always, it does not bother me a
bit what the nature of Portuguese rule was, and the consequences of this
rule. However, this does not mean that there cannot be any
discussion of Portuguese rule in Goa.

If I am misinformed on Portuguese rule in Goa, please feel free to correct
me. Jorge Noronha is the only person on this forum who I notice, takes
the effort to impassionately try and correct some of the errors that
creep up during these discussions. This is how you serve and protect your
heritage, not by issuing rejoinders on Muslim Sultans only because I am a
Muslim.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-13 20:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful, may
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule of
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who are
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
I apologize if such renderings on my part have hurt your feelings. That
was not my intention. As I have maintained always, it does not bother me a
bit what the nature of Portuguese rule was, and the consequences of this
rule. However, this does not mean that there cannot be any
discussion of Portuguese rule in Goa.

If I am misinformed on Portuguese rule in Goa, please feel free to correct
me. Jorge Noronha is the only person on this forum who I notice, takes
the effort to impassionately try and correct some of the errors that
creep up during these discussions. This is how you serve and protect your
heritage, not by issuing rejoinders on Muslim Sultans only because I am a
Muslim.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-15 00:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful,
may
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule
of
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who
are
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
I apologize if such renderings on my part have hurt your feelings. That
was not my intention. As I have maintained always, it does not bother me
a
bit what the nature of Portuguese rule was, and the consequences of this
rule. However, this does not mean that there cannot be any
discussion of Portuguese rule in Goa.

If I am misinformed on Portuguese rule in Goa, please feel free to
correct
me. Jorge Noronha is the only person on this forum who I notice, takes
the effort to impassionately try and correct some of the errors that
creep up during these discussions. This is how you serve and protect
your
heritage, not by issuing rejoinders on Muslim Sultans only because I am
a
Muslim.

Answer:
Tariq: I will be happy to dialogue with you, briefly or extensively, on
Portuguese and Muslim (we do not wan to be biased) rule in Goa.
Hopefully both of us can learn. With due respect to you and to the
GoaNetters, it is you who in unrelated conversation and subjects throws
a one-line reference on Portuguese rule in Goa. If you refer to your
recent messages on Goanet, there was reference of US invasion of Iraq
and linking it again in one-line to Portuguese rule in Goa. Unless of
course you think that Goans on the net have no idea of invasion or
colonialism outside the Portuguese context. So I would suggest that if
you are itching to revisit Portuguese rule in Goa let us do so as a
subject by itself, which it deserves, rather than a one-line derogatory
remark on 450 years of history. I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-15 21:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
course you think that Goans on the net have no idea of invasion or
colonialism outside the Portuguese context. So I would suggest that if
you are itching to revisit Portuguese rule in Goa let us do so as a
subject by itself, which it deserves, rather than a one-line derogatory
remark on 450 years of history. I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Duh!! For those that cannot still see it - the reference is one of
COLONIALISM!!!! That is how the issue of Iraq can relate to Goa. You can
dig into the archives of Goa-Net to get a full understanding.

Denial, it seems, is not just a river in Egypt!

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-15 21:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
course you think that Goans on the net have no idea of invasion or
colonialism outside the Portuguese context. So I would suggest that if
you are itching to revisit Portuguese rule in Goa let us do so as a
subject by itself, which it deserves, rather than a one-line derogatory
remark on 450 years of history. I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Duh!! For those that cannot still see it - the reference is one of
COLONIALISM!!!! That is how the issue of Iraq can relate to Goa. You can
dig into the archives of Goa-Net to get a full understanding.

Denial, it seems, is not just a river in Egypt!

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-15 21:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
course you think that Goans on the net have no idea of invasion or
colonialism outside the Portuguese context. So I would suggest that if
you are itching to revisit Portuguese rule in Goa let us do so as a
subject by itself, which it deserves, rather than a one-line derogatory
remark on 450 years of history. I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Duh!! For those that cannot still see it - the reference is one of
COLONIALISM!!!! That is how the issue of Iraq can relate to Goa. You can
dig into the archives of Goa-Net to get a full understanding.

Denial, it seems, is not just a river in Egypt!

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-15 21:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
course you think that Goans on the net have no idea of invasion or
colonialism outside the Portuguese context. So I would suggest that if
you are itching to revisit Portuguese rule in Goa let us do so as a
subject by itself, which it deserves, rather than a one-line derogatory
remark on 450 years of history. I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Duh!! For those that cannot still see it - the reference is one of
COLONIALISM!!!! That is how the issue of Iraq can relate to Goa. You can
dig into the archives of Goa-Net to get a full understanding.

Denial, it seems, is not just a river in Egypt!

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-15 21:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
course you think that Goans on the net have no idea of invasion or
colonialism outside the Portuguese context. So I would suggest that if
you are itching to revisit Portuguese rule in Goa let us do so as a
subject by itself, which it deserves, rather than a one-line derogatory
remark on 450 years of history. I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Duh!! For those that cannot still see it - the reference is one of
COLONIALISM!!!! That is how the issue of Iraq can relate to Goa. You can
dig into the archives of Goa-Net to get a full understanding.

Denial, it seems, is not just a river in Egypt!

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-15 21:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
course you think that Goans on the net have no idea of invasion or
colonialism outside the Portuguese context. So I would suggest that if
you are itching to revisit Portuguese rule in Goa let us do so as a
subject by itself, which it deserves, rather than a one-line derogatory
remark on 450 years of history. I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Duh!! For those that cannot still see it - the reference is one of
COLONIALISM!!!! That is how the issue of Iraq can relate to Goa. You can
dig into the archives of Goa-Net to get a full understanding.

Denial, it seems, is not just a river in Egypt!

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
George Pinto
2003-04-15 21:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Gilbert:

I am confused about your message above to Tariq. Are you saying Goan Catholics speak with one
voice regarding Portuguese rule? I have met some who speak favorably, others unfavorably, and
others who are neutral.

I am guess I am missing your point.

George

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com
Sidney Fernandes
2003-04-16 14:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
-----------
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself . I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
--
***************************************************
Sidney Fernandes sfernand at hsc.usf.edu
Database Administrator
University of South Florida
Health Sciences Center Information Systems

*****************************************************
"I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I know);
Their names are What and Why and When and How
and Where and Who."
----Rudyard Kipling
Frederick Noronha (FN)
2003-04-16 18:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidney Fernandes
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself. I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
One agrees without reservation with Sidney. In my view, those who were
upset by the end of Portuguese colonial rule in Goa are rather limited in
number. But since they are so active in repeatedly stating their point of
view, it tends to give misleading impression that "most Catholics" were
and are pro-colonial.

Were? One cannot be sure; since one was not around at that time. Public
opinion (as in the US attack on Iraq) was rather limited to what the
administrations wanted people to think, either pro-Portuguese or
pro-Indian. There were few independent views then. But the post-1961
generation is IMHO very well adjusted to the situation; and that's too
their benefit.

Some other theses which I would like to suggest on this issue, open to
debate:

o Those who shout the loudest are those who lost (or feel they lost)
the most in terms of status and priviledge or power from the
admittedly abrupt end of Portuguese colonial rule.
o Most Catholic Goans, specially expats in places like Africa or
Mumbai, don't have strong views one way or another. In any case,
they hardly had strong links with Goa, apart from that yearly
holiday and a notional sense of belonging. Many moved from
post-colonial East Africa to the West or wherever.
o Goa, being the tightly hierarchically-controlled society it
was (and in some ways, still is), the large bulk of the population
did not benefit from Portuguese colonial rule. Take me,
with fairly plebian roots. My parents had to scour half the
globe to make a living; and we never felt we gained anything
from Portuguese colonialism. Except Konkani being replaced
by English, accidentally due to generations of migration.
(This, in a globalised world, perhaps stands in good stead.)
o On the other hand, a post-1961 generation of Goans has also
grown up, which owns its position to New Delhi. I would say
that loud one-sided protests from this side, without being
honest about the current reality, is also questionable.
This transends the religious divide, just as the
pro-Portuguese lobby prior to 1961 included both Catholics
*and* Hindus unlike what is sometimes now made out to be.
o Catholic Goans who were in Goa around 1961 (and specially those
who left soon later) seem to have had the most difficulty in
coping with the abrupt transition. Many still seem to nurse
the 'hurt of the 'sixties' (i.e. coping with a post-colonial
situation, which they saw as being marked by discriminatory
policies against them e.g. jobs to 'deputationists' etc).
I have friends here who changed their medium of education
overnight from Portuguese to English. Some never managed
to make the transition... at a personal level, it's sad.
o Unlike some intellectuals of the past generation who
painted themselves into a corner by their
defensive-about-colonialism policies, the younger generation
of Catholic Goans largely is free of such hang-ups. This
gives them a chance to claim their place as equal
citizens in society. Regardless of persistent attempts
to communalise issues, and related challenges.
o Integration with the Indian Union may have actually
opened up more opportunities for the average Goan in
Goa, regardless of his religious orientation. A
psychological sense of loss, if it is there, is hard to
assuage any way.
o It is the above lobby which, wittingly or otherwise,
takes advantage of the criticism targeted at Goan
society (mainly with the agenda of stemming the rot
and/or improving things) to suit their own agenda, i.e.
of making a case that Portuguese colonialism (it's
never called that though) was a better option.
o An 'independent Goa' as suggested by some seems to be
more of an afterthought by those unable to adjust to
their new (less-priviledged) status in a changing
society. This idea could easily end in Goa turning
into a hopelessly misgoverned basketcase,
manipulated by other powers, bearing some
resemblances to Nepal (palace coups, corrupt
politicians, terrible poverty aside opulence) and
Sri Lanka (civil war, a playground for international
rivarly). From my little experience here, there are
no signs to believe that Goa produces men of a
superior quality than the average Indian politician;
infact they're a lot worse. Think of the leading
lights we've had; and don't believe the whitewash
and spin that a friendly press is currently
giving Parrikar.
o Various expat groups, egged on by their homesickness,
need to justify their own decision of shifting out,
and financial clout, have fuelled the politics of
hate back home. This has happened among fringe
elements of expat Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Should
we really want Christians to follow this pain-filled
road? I think not... FN

PS: My personal view is that those supporting the pre-1961 state of
affairs in Goa are so few, that they're often forced to resort to
email pseudonymns to increase their numbers. Isn't that obvious from the
arguments which keep repeating themselves... we know where they come from.
Helga do Rosario Gomes
2003-04-16 23:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Fred! You couldnt have put it better.
Helga
Post by Frederick Noronha (FN)
One agrees without reservation with Sidney. In my view, those who were
upset by the end of Portuguese colonial rule in Goa are rather limited in
number. But since they are so active in repeatedly stating their point of
view, it tends to give misleading impression that "most Catholics" were
and are pro-colonial.
Were? One cannot be sure; since one was not around at that time. Public
opinion (as in the US attack on Iraq) was rather limited to what the
administrations wanted people to think, either pro-Portuguese or
pro-Indian. There were few independent views then. But the post-1961
generation is IMHO very well adjusted to the situation; and that's too
their benefit.
Some other theses which I would like to suggest on this issue, open to
o Those who shout the loudest are those who lost (or feel they lost)
the most in terms of status and priviledge or power from the
admittedly abrupt end of Portuguese colonial rule.
o Most Catholic Goans, specially expats in places like Africa or
Mumbai, don't have strong views one way or another. In any case,
they hardly had strong links with Goa, apart from that yearly
holiday and a notional sense of belonging. Many moved from
post-colonial East Africa to the West or wherever.
o Goa, being the tightly hierarchically-controlled society it
was (and in some ways, still is), the large bulk of the population
did not benefit from Portuguese colonial rule. Take me,
with fairly plebian roots. My parents had to scour half the
globe to make a living; and we never felt we gained anything
from Portuguese colonialism. Except Konkani being replaced
by English, accidentally due to generations of migration.
(This, in a globalised world, perhaps stands in good stead.)
o On the other hand, a post-1961 generation of Goans has also
grown up, which owns its position to New Delhi. I would say
that loud one-sided protests from this side, without being
honest about the current reality, is also questionable.
This transends the religious divide, just as the
pro-Portuguese lobby prior to 1961 included both Catholics
*and* Hindus unlike what is sometimes now made out to be.
o Catholic Goans who were in Goa around 1961 (and specially those
who left soon later) seem to have had the most difficulty in
coping with the abrupt transition. Many still seem to nurse
the 'hurt of the 'sixties' (i.e. coping with a post-colonial
situation, which they saw as being marked by discriminatory
policies against them e.g. jobs to 'deputationists' etc).
I have friends here who changed their medium of education
overnight from Portuguese to English. Some never managed
to make the transition... at a personal level, it's sad.
o Unlike some intellectuals of the past generation who
painted themselves into a corner by their
defensive-about-colonialism policies, the younger generation
of Catholic Goans largely is free of such hang-ups. This
gives them a chance to claim their place as equal
citizens in society. Regardless of persistent attempts
to communalise issues, and related challenges.
o Integration with the Indian Union may have actually
opened up more opportunities for the average Goan in
Goa, regardless of his religious orientation. A
psychological sense of loss, if it is there, is hard to
assuage any way.
o It is the above lobby which, wittingly or otherwise,
takes advantage of the criticism targeted at Goan
society (mainly with the agenda of stemming the rot
and/or improving things) to suit their own agenda, i.e.
of making a case that Portuguese colonialism (it's
never called that though) was a better option.
o An 'independent Goa' as suggested by some seems to be
more of an afterthought by those unable to adjust to
their new (less-priviledged) status in a changing
society. This idea could easily end in Goa turning
into a hopelessly misgoverned basketcase,
manipulated by other powers, bearing some
resemblances to Nepal (palace coups, corrupt
politicians, terrible poverty aside opulence) and
Sri Lanka (civil war, a playground for international
rivarly). From my little experience here, there are
no signs to believe that Goa produces men of a
superior quality than the average Indian politician;
infact they're a lot worse. Think of the leading
lights we've had; and don't believe the whitewash
and spin that a friendly press is currently
giving Parrikar.
o Various expat groups, egged on by their homesickness,
need to justify their own decision of shifting out,
and financial clout, have fuelled the politics of
hate back home. This has happened among fringe
elements of expat Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Should
we really want Christians to follow this pain-filled
road? I think not... FN
PS: My personal view is that those supporting the pre-1961 state of
affairs in Goa are so few, that they're often forced to resort to
email pseudonymns to increase their numbers. Isn't that obvious from the
arguments which keep repeating themselves... we know where they come from.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
Helga do Rosario Gomes
2003-04-16 23:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Fred! You couldnt have put it better.
Helga
Post by Frederick Noronha (FN)
One agrees without reservation with Sidney. In my view, those who were
upset by the end of Portuguese colonial rule in Goa are rather limited in
number. But since they are so active in repeatedly stating their point of
view, it tends to give misleading impression that "most Catholics" were
and are pro-colonial.
Were? One cannot be sure; since one was not around at that time. Public
opinion (as in the US attack on Iraq) was rather limited to what the
administrations wanted people to think, either pro-Portuguese or
pro-Indian. There were few independent views then. But the post-1961
generation is IMHO very well adjusted to the situation; and that's too
their benefit.
Some other theses which I would like to suggest on this issue, open to
o Those who shout the loudest are those who lost (or feel they lost)
the most in terms of status and priviledge or power from the
admittedly abrupt end of Portuguese colonial rule.
o Most Catholic Goans, specially expats in places like Africa or
Mumbai, don't have strong views one way or another. In any case,
they hardly had strong links with Goa, apart from that yearly
holiday and a notional sense of belonging. Many moved from
post-colonial East Africa to the West or wherever.
o Goa, being the tightly hierarchically-controlled society it
was (and in some ways, still is), the large bulk of the population
did not benefit from Portuguese colonial rule. Take me,
with fairly plebian roots. My parents had to scour half the
globe to make a living; and we never felt we gained anything
from Portuguese colonialism. Except Konkani being replaced
by English, accidentally due to generations of migration.
(This, in a globalised world, perhaps stands in good stead.)
o On the other hand, a post-1961 generation of Goans has also
grown up, which owns its position to New Delhi. I would say
that loud one-sided protests from this side, without being
honest about the current reality, is also questionable.
This transends the religious divide, just as the
pro-Portuguese lobby prior to 1961 included both Catholics
*and* Hindus unlike what is sometimes now made out to be.
o Catholic Goans who were in Goa around 1961 (and specially those
who left soon later) seem to have had the most difficulty in
coping with the abrupt transition. Many still seem to nurse
the 'hurt of the 'sixties' (i.e. coping with a post-colonial
situation, which they saw as being marked by discriminatory
policies against them e.g. jobs to 'deputationists' etc).
I have friends here who changed their medium of education
overnight from Portuguese to English. Some never managed
to make the transition... at a personal level, it's sad.
o Unlike some intellectuals of the past generation who
painted themselves into a corner by their
defensive-about-colonialism policies, the younger generation
of Catholic Goans largely is free of such hang-ups. This
gives them a chance to claim their place as equal
citizens in society. Regardless of persistent attempts
to communalise issues, and related challenges.
o Integration with the Indian Union may have actually
opened up more opportunities for the average Goan in
Goa, regardless of his religious orientation. A
psychological sense of loss, if it is there, is hard to
assuage any way.
o It is the above lobby which, wittingly or otherwise,
takes advantage of the criticism targeted at Goan
society (mainly with the agenda of stemming the rot
and/or improving things) to suit their own agenda, i.e.
of making a case that Portuguese colonialism (it's
never called that though) was a better option.
o An 'independent Goa' as suggested by some seems to be
more of an afterthought by those unable to adjust to
their new (less-priviledged) status in a changing
society. This idea could easily end in Goa turning
into a hopelessly misgoverned basketcase,
manipulated by other powers, bearing some
resemblances to Nepal (palace coups, corrupt
politicians, terrible poverty aside opulence) and
Sri Lanka (civil war, a playground for international
rivarly). From my little experience here, there are
no signs to believe that Goa produces men of a
superior quality than the average Indian politician;
infact they're a lot worse. Think of the leading
lights we've had; and don't believe the whitewash
and spin that a friendly press is currently
giving Parrikar.
o Various expat groups, egged on by their homesickness,
need to justify their own decision of shifting out,
and financial clout, have fuelled the politics of
hate back home. This has happened among fringe
elements of expat Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Should
we really want Christians to follow this pain-filled
road? I think not... FN
PS: My personal view is that those supporting the pre-1961 state of
affairs in Goa are so few, that they're often forced to resort to
email pseudonymns to increase their numbers. Isn't that obvious from the
arguments which keep repeating themselves... we know where they come from.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
Helga do Rosario Gomes
2003-04-16 23:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Fred! You couldnt have put it better.
Helga
Post by Frederick Noronha (FN)
One agrees without reservation with Sidney. In my view, those who were
upset by the end of Portuguese colonial rule in Goa are rather limited in
number. But since they are so active in repeatedly stating their point of
view, it tends to give misleading impression that "most Catholics" were
and are pro-colonial.
Were? One cannot be sure; since one was not around at that time. Public
opinion (as in the US attack on Iraq) was rather limited to what the
administrations wanted people to think, either pro-Portuguese or
pro-Indian. There were few independent views then. But the post-1961
generation is IMHO very well adjusted to the situation; and that's too
their benefit.
Some other theses which I would like to suggest on this issue, open to
o Those who shout the loudest are those who lost (or feel they lost)
the most in terms of status and priviledge or power from the
admittedly abrupt end of Portuguese colonial rule.
o Most Catholic Goans, specially expats in places like Africa or
Mumbai, don't have strong views one way or another. In any case,
they hardly had strong links with Goa, apart from that yearly
holiday and a notional sense of belonging. Many moved from
post-colonial East Africa to the West or wherever.
o Goa, being the tightly hierarchically-controlled society it
was (and in some ways, still is), the large bulk of the population
did not benefit from Portuguese colonial rule. Take me,
with fairly plebian roots. My parents had to scour half the
globe to make a living; and we never felt we gained anything
from Portuguese colonialism. Except Konkani being replaced
by English, accidentally due to generations of migration.
(This, in a globalised world, perhaps stands in good stead.)
o On the other hand, a post-1961 generation of Goans has also
grown up, which owns its position to New Delhi. I would say
that loud one-sided protests from this side, without being
honest about the current reality, is also questionable.
This transends the religious divide, just as the
pro-Portuguese lobby prior to 1961 included both Catholics
*and* Hindus unlike what is sometimes now made out to be.
o Catholic Goans who were in Goa around 1961 (and specially those
who left soon later) seem to have had the most difficulty in
coping with the abrupt transition. Many still seem to nurse
the 'hurt of the 'sixties' (i.e. coping with a post-colonial
situation, which they saw as being marked by discriminatory
policies against them e.g. jobs to 'deputationists' etc).
I have friends here who changed their medium of education
overnight from Portuguese to English. Some never managed
to make the transition... at a personal level, it's sad.
o Unlike some intellectuals of the past generation who
painted themselves into a corner by their
defensive-about-colonialism policies, the younger generation
of Catholic Goans largely is free of such hang-ups. This
gives them a chance to claim their place as equal
citizens in society. Regardless of persistent attempts
to communalise issues, and related challenges.
o Integration with the Indian Union may have actually
opened up more opportunities for the average Goan in
Goa, regardless of his religious orientation. A
psychological sense of loss, if it is there, is hard to
assuage any way.
o It is the above lobby which, wittingly or otherwise,
takes advantage of the criticism targeted at Goan
society (mainly with the agenda of stemming the rot
and/or improving things) to suit their own agenda, i.e.
of making a case that Portuguese colonialism (it's
never called that though) was a better option.
o An 'independent Goa' as suggested by some seems to be
more of an afterthought by those unable to adjust to
their new (less-priviledged) status in a changing
society. This idea could easily end in Goa turning
into a hopelessly misgoverned basketcase,
manipulated by other powers, bearing some
resemblances to Nepal (palace coups, corrupt
politicians, terrible poverty aside opulence) and
Sri Lanka (civil war, a playground for international
rivarly). From my little experience here, there are
no signs to believe that Goa produces men of a
superior quality than the average Indian politician;
infact they're a lot worse. Think of the leading
lights we've had; and don't believe the whitewash
and spin that a friendly press is currently
giving Parrikar.
o Various expat groups, egged on by their homesickness,
need to justify their own decision of shifting out,
and financial clout, have fuelled the politics of
hate back home. This has happened among fringe
elements of expat Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Should
we really want Christians to follow this pain-filled
road? I think not... FN
PS: My personal view is that those supporting the pre-1961 state of
affairs in Goa are so few, that they're often forced to resort to
email pseudonymns to increase their numbers. Isn't that obvious from the
arguments which keep repeating themselves... we know where they come from.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
Helga do Rosario Gomes
2003-04-16 23:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Fred! You couldnt have put it better.
Helga
Post by Frederick Noronha (FN)
One agrees without reservation with Sidney. In my view, those who were
upset by the end of Portuguese colonial rule in Goa are rather limited in
number. But since they are so active in repeatedly stating their point of
view, it tends to give misleading impression that "most Catholics" were
and are pro-colonial.
Were? One cannot be sure; since one was not around at that time. Public
opinion (as in the US attack on Iraq) was rather limited to what the
administrations wanted people to think, either pro-Portuguese or
pro-Indian. There were few independent views then. But the post-1961
generation is IMHO very well adjusted to the situation; and that's too
their benefit.
Some other theses which I would like to suggest on this issue, open to
o Those who shout the loudest are those who lost (or feel they lost)
the most in terms of status and priviledge or power from the
admittedly abrupt end of Portuguese colonial rule.
o Most Catholic Goans, specially expats in places like Africa or
Mumbai, don't have strong views one way or another. In any case,
they hardly had strong links with Goa, apart from that yearly
holiday and a notional sense of belonging. Many moved from
post-colonial East Africa to the West or wherever.
o Goa, being the tightly hierarchically-controlled society it
was (and in some ways, still is), the large bulk of the population
did not benefit from Portuguese colonial rule. Take me,
with fairly plebian roots. My parents had to scour half the
globe to make a living; and we never felt we gained anything
from Portuguese colonialism. Except Konkani being replaced
by English, accidentally due to generations of migration.
(This, in a globalised world, perhaps stands in good stead.)
o On the other hand, a post-1961 generation of Goans has also
grown up, which owns its position to New Delhi. I would say
that loud one-sided protests from this side, without being
honest about the current reality, is also questionable.
This transends the religious divide, just as the
pro-Portuguese lobby prior to 1961 included both Catholics
*and* Hindus unlike what is sometimes now made out to be.
o Catholic Goans who were in Goa around 1961 (and specially those
who left soon later) seem to have had the most difficulty in
coping with the abrupt transition. Many still seem to nurse
the 'hurt of the 'sixties' (i.e. coping with a post-colonial
situation, which they saw as being marked by discriminatory
policies against them e.g. jobs to 'deputationists' etc).
I have friends here who changed their medium of education
overnight from Portuguese to English. Some never managed
to make the transition... at a personal level, it's sad.
o Unlike some intellectuals of the past generation who
painted themselves into a corner by their
defensive-about-colonialism policies, the younger generation
of Catholic Goans largely is free of such hang-ups. This
gives them a chance to claim their place as equal
citizens in society. Regardless of persistent attempts
to communalise issues, and related challenges.
o Integration with the Indian Union may have actually
opened up more opportunities for the average Goan in
Goa, regardless of his religious orientation. A
psychological sense of loss, if it is there, is hard to
assuage any way.
o It is the above lobby which, wittingly or otherwise,
takes advantage of the criticism targeted at Goan
society (mainly with the agenda of stemming the rot
and/or improving things) to suit their own agenda, i.e.
of making a case that Portuguese colonialism (it's
never called that though) was a better option.
o An 'independent Goa' as suggested by some seems to be
more of an afterthought by those unable to adjust to
their new (less-priviledged) status in a changing
society. This idea could easily end in Goa turning
into a hopelessly misgoverned basketcase,
manipulated by other powers, bearing some
resemblances to Nepal (palace coups, corrupt
politicians, terrible poverty aside opulence) and
Sri Lanka (civil war, a playground for international
rivarly). From my little experience here, there are
no signs to believe that Goa produces men of a
superior quality than the average Indian politician;
infact they're a lot worse. Think of the leading
lights we've had; and don't believe the whitewash
and spin that a friendly press is currently
giving Parrikar.
o Various expat groups, egged on by their homesickness,
need to justify their own decision of shifting out,
and financial clout, have fuelled the politics of
hate back home. This has happened among fringe
elements of expat Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Should
we really want Christians to follow this pain-filled
road? I think not... FN
PS: My personal view is that those supporting the pre-1961 state of
affairs in Goa are so few, that they're often forced to resort to
email pseudonymns to increase their numbers. Isn't that obvious from the
arguments which keep repeating themselves... we know where they come from.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
Helga do Rosario Gomes
2003-04-16 23:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Fred! You couldnt have put it better.
Helga
Post by Frederick Noronha (FN)
One agrees without reservation with Sidney. In my view, those who were
upset by the end of Portuguese colonial rule in Goa are rather limited in
number. But since they are so active in repeatedly stating their point of
view, it tends to give misleading impression that "most Catholics" were
and are pro-colonial.
Were? One cannot be sure; since one was not around at that time. Public
opinion (as in the US attack on Iraq) was rather limited to what the
administrations wanted people to think, either pro-Portuguese or
pro-Indian. There were few independent views then. But the post-1961
generation is IMHO very well adjusted to the situation; and that's too
their benefit.
Some other theses which I would like to suggest on this issue, open to
o Those who shout the loudest are those who lost (or feel they lost)
the most in terms of status and priviledge or power from the
admittedly abrupt end of Portuguese colonial rule.
o Most Catholic Goans, specially expats in places like Africa or
Mumbai, don't have strong views one way or another. In any case,
they hardly had strong links with Goa, apart from that yearly
holiday and a notional sense of belonging. Many moved from
post-colonial East Africa to the West or wherever.
o Goa, being the tightly hierarchically-controlled society it
was (and in some ways, still is), the large bulk of the population
did not benefit from Portuguese colonial rule. Take me,
with fairly plebian roots. My parents had to scour half the
globe to make a living; and we never felt we gained anything
from Portuguese colonialism. Except Konkani being replaced
by English, accidentally due to generations of migration.
(This, in a globalised world, perhaps stands in good stead.)
o On the other hand, a post-1961 generation of Goans has also
grown up, which owns its position to New Delhi. I would say
that loud one-sided protests from this side, without being
honest about the current reality, is also questionable.
This transends the religious divide, just as the
pro-Portuguese lobby prior to 1961 included both Catholics
*and* Hindus unlike what is sometimes now made out to be.
o Catholic Goans who were in Goa around 1961 (and specially those
who left soon later) seem to have had the most difficulty in
coping with the abrupt transition. Many still seem to nurse
the 'hurt of the 'sixties' (i.e. coping with a post-colonial
situation, which they saw as being marked by discriminatory
policies against them e.g. jobs to 'deputationists' etc).
I have friends here who changed their medium of education
overnight from Portuguese to English. Some never managed
to make the transition... at a personal level, it's sad.
o Unlike some intellectuals of the past generation who
painted themselves into a corner by their
defensive-about-colonialism policies, the younger generation
of Catholic Goans largely is free of such hang-ups. This
gives them a chance to claim their place as equal
citizens in society. Regardless of persistent attempts
to communalise issues, and related challenges.
o Integration with the Indian Union may have actually
opened up more opportunities for the average Goan in
Goa, regardless of his religious orientation. A
psychological sense of loss, if it is there, is hard to
assuage any way.
o It is the above lobby which, wittingly or otherwise,
takes advantage of the criticism targeted at Goan
society (mainly with the agenda of stemming the rot
and/or improving things) to suit their own agenda, i.e.
of making a case that Portuguese colonialism (it's
never called that though) was a better option.
o An 'independent Goa' as suggested by some seems to be
more of an afterthought by those unable to adjust to
their new (less-priviledged) status in a changing
society. This idea could easily end in Goa turning
into a hopelessly misgoverned basketcase,
manipulated by other powers, bearing some
resemblances to Nepal (palace coups, corrupt
politicians, terrible poverty aside opulence) and
Sri Lanka (civil war, a playground for international
rivarly). From my little experience here, there are
no signs to believe that Goa produces men of a
superior quality than the average Indian politician;
infact they're a lot worse. Think of the leading
lights we've had; and don't believe the whitewash
and spin that a friendly press is currently
giving Parrikar.
o Various expat groups, egged on by their homesickness,
need to justify their own decision of shifting out,
and financial clout, have fuelled the politics of
hate back home. This has happened among fringe
elements of expat Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Should
we really want Christians to follow this pain-filled
road? I think not... FN
PS: My personal view is that those supporting the pre-1961 state of
affairs in Goa are so few, that they're often forced to resort to
email pseudonymns to increase their numbers. Isn't that obvious from the
arguments which keep repeating themselves... we know where they come from.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
Helga do Rosario Gomes
2003-04-16 23:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Fred! You couldnt have put it better.
Helga
Post by Frederick Noronha (FN)
One agrees without reservation with Sidney. In my view, those who were
upset by the end of Portuguese colonial rule in Goa are rather limited in
number. But since they are so active in repeatedly stating their point of
view, it tends to give misleading impression that "most Catholics" were
and are pro-colonial.
Were? One cannot be sure; since one was not around at that time. Public
opinion (as in the US attack on Iraq) was rather limited to what the
administrations wanted people to think, either pro-Portuguese or
pro-Indian. There were few independent views then. But the post-1961
generation is IMHO very well adjusted to the situation; and that's too
their benefit.
Some other theses which I would like to suggest on this issue, open to
o Those who shout the loudest are those who lost (or feel they lost)
the most in terms of status and priviledge or power from the
admittedly abrupt end of Portuguese colonial rule.
o Most Catholic Goans, specially expats in places like Africa or
Mumbai, don't have strong views one way or another. In any case,
they hardly had strong links with Goa, apart from that yearly
holiday and a notional sense of belonging. Many moved from
post-colonial East Africa to the West or wherever.
o Goa, being the tightly hierarchically-controlled society it
was (and in some ways, still is), the large bulk of the population
did not benefit from Portuguese colonial rule. Take me,
with fairly plebian roots. My parents had to scour half the
globe to make a living; and we never felt we gained anything
from Portuguese colonialism. Except Konkani being replaced
by English, accidentally due to generations of migration.
(This, in a globalised world, perhaps stands in good stead.)
o On the other hand, a post-1961 generation of Goans has also
grown up, which owns its position to New Delhi. I would say
that loud one-sided protests from this side, without being
honest about the current reality, is also questionable.
This transends the religious divide, just as the
pro-Portuguese lobby prior to 1961 included both Catholics
*and* Hindus unlike what is sometimes now made out to be.
o Catholic Goans who were in Goa around 1961 (and specially those
who left soon later) seem to have had the most difficulty in
coping with the abrupt transition. Many still seem to nurse
the 'hurt of the 'sixties' (i.e. coping with a post-colonial
situation, which they saw as being marked by discriminatory
policies against them e.g. jobs to 'deputationists' etc).
I have friends here who changed their medium of education
overnight from Portuguese to English. Some never managed
to make the transition... at a personal level, it's sad.
o Unlike some intellectuals of the past generation who
painted themselves into a corner by their
defensive-about-colonialism policies, the younger generation
of Catholic Goans largely is free of such hang-ups. This
gives them a chance to claim their place as equal
citizens in society. Regardless of persistent attempts
to communalise issues, and related challenges.
o Integration with the Indian Union may have actually
opened up more opportunities for the average Goan in
Goa, regardless of his religious orientation. A
psychological sense of loss, if it is there, is hard to
assuage any way.
o It is the above lobby which, wittingly or otherwise,
takes advantage of the criticism targeted at Goan
society (mainly with the agenda of stemming the rot
and/or improving things) to suit their own agenda, i.e.
of making a case that Portuguese colonialism (it's
never called that though) was a better option.
o An 'independent Goa' as suggested by some seems to be
more of an afterthought by those unable to adjust to
their new (less-priviledged) status in a changing
society. This idea could easily end in Goa turning
into a hopelessly misgoverned basketcase,
manipulated by other powers, bearing some
resemblances to Nepal (palace coups, corrupt
politicians, terrible poverty aside opulence) and
Sri Lanka (civil war, a playground for international
rivarly). From my little experience here, there are
no signs to believe that Goa produces men of a
superior quality than the average Indian politician;
infact they're a lot worse. Think of the leading
lights we've had; and don't believe the whitewash
and spin that a friendly press is currently
giving Parrikar.
o Various expat groups, egged on by their homesickness,
need to justify their own decision of shifting out,
and financial clout, have fuelled the politics of
hate back home. This has happened among fringe
elements of expat Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Should
we really want Christians to follow this pain-filled
road? I think not... FN
PS: My personal view is that those supporting the pre-1961 state of
affairs in Goa are so few, that they're often forced to resort to
email pseudonymns to increase their numbers. Isn't that obvious from the
arguments which keep repeating themselves... we know where they come from.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
Frederick Noronha (FN)
2003-04-16 18:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidney Fernandes
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself. I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
One agrees without reservation with Sidney. In my view, those who were
upset by the end of Portuguese colonial rule in Goa are rather limited in
number. But since they are so active in repeatedly stating their point of
view, it tends to give misleading impression that "most Catholics" were
and are pro-colonial.

Were? One cannot be sure; since one was not around at that time. Public
opinion (as in the US attack on Iraq) was rather limited to what the
administrations wanted people to think, either pro-Portuguese or
pro-Indian. There were few independent views then. But the post-1961
generation is IMHO very well adjusted to the situation; and that's too
their benefit.

Some other theses which I would like to suggest on this issue, open to
debate:

o Those who shout the loudest are those who lost (or feel they lost)
the most in terms of status and priviledge or power from the
admittedly abrupt end of Portuguese colonial rule.
o Most Catholic Goans, specially expats in places like Africa or
Mumbai, don't have strong views one way or another. In any case,
they hardly had strong links with Goa, apart from that yearly
holiday and a notional sense of belonging. Many moved from
post-colonial East Africa to the West or wherever.
o Goa, being the tightly hierarchically-controlled society it
was (and in some ways, still is), the large bulk of the population
did not benefit from Portuguese colonial rule. Take me,
with fairly plebian roots. My parents had to scour half the
globe to make a living; and we never felt we gained anything
from Portuguese colonialism. Except Konkani being replaced
by English, accidentally due to generations of migration.
(This, in a globalised world, perhaps stands in good stead.)
o On the other hand, a post-1961 generation of Goans has also
grown up, which owns its position to New Delhi. I would say
that loud one-sided protests from this side, without being
honest about the current reality, is also questionable.
This transends the religious divide, just as the
pro-Portuguese lobby prior to 1961 included both Catholics
*and* Hindus unlike what is sometimes now made out to be.
o Catholic Goans who were in Goa around 1961 (and specially those
who left soon later) seem to have had the most difficulty in
coping with the abrupt transition. Many still seem to nurse
the 'hurt of the 'sixties' (i.e. coping with a post-colonial
situation, which they saw as being marked by discriminatory
policies against them e.g. jobs to 'deputationists' etc).
I have friends here who changed their medium of education
overnight from Portuguese to English. Some never managed
to make the transition... at a personal level, it's sad.
o Unlike some intellectuals of the past generation who
painted themselves into a corner by their
defensive-about-colonialism policies, the younger generation
of Catholic Goans largely is free of such hang-ups. This
gives them a chance to claim their place as equal
citizens in society. Regardless of persistent attempts
to communalise issues, and related challenges.
o Integration with the Indian Union may have actually
opened up more opportunities for the average Goan in
Goa, regardless of his religious orientation. A
psychological sense of loss, if it is there, is hard to
assuage any way.
o It is the above lobby which, wittingly or otherwise,
takes advantage of the criticism targeted at Goan
society (mainly with the agenda of stemming the rot
and/or improving things) to suit their own agenda, i.e.
of making a case that Portuguese colonialism (it's
never called that though) was a better option.
o An 'independent Goa' as suggested by some seems to be
more of an afterthought by those unable to adjust to
their new (less-priviledged) status in a changing
society. This idea could easily end in Goa turning
into a hopelessly misgoverned basketcase,
manipulated by other powers, bearing some
resemblances to Nepal (palace coups, corrupt
politicians, terrible poverty aside opulence) and
Sri Lanka (civil war, a playground for international
rivarly). From my little experience here, there are
no signs to believe that Goa produces men of a
superior quality than the average Indian politician;
infact they're a lot worse. Think of the leading
lights we've had; and don't believe the whitewash
and spin that a friendly press is currently
giving Parrikar.
o Various expat groups, egged on by their homesickness,
need to justify their own decision of shifting out,
and financial clout, have fuelled the politics of
hate back home. This has happened among fringe
elements of expat Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Should
we really want Christians to follow this pain-filled
road? I think not... FN

PS: My personal view is that those supporting the pre-1961 state of
affairs in Goa are so few, that they're often forced to resort to
email pseudonymns to increase their numbers. Isn't that obvious from the
arguments which keep repeating themselves... we know where they come from.
Frederick Noronha (FN)
2003-04-16 18:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidney Fernandes
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself. I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
One agrees without reservation with Sidney. In my view, those who were
upset by the end of Portuguese colonial rule in Goa are rather limited in
number. But since they are so active in repeatedly stating their point of
view, it tends to give misleading impression that "most Catholics" were
and are pro-colonial.

Were? One cannot be sure; since one was not around at that time. Public
opinion (as in the US attack on Iraq) was rather limited to what the
administrations wanted people to think, either pro-Portuguese or
pro-Indian. There were few independent views then. But the post-1961
generation is IMHO very well adjusted to the situation; and that's too
their benefit.

Some other theses which I would like to suggest on this issue, open to
debate:

o Those who shout the loudest are those who lost (or feel they lost)
the most in terms of status and priviledge or power from the
admittedly abrupt end of Portuguese colonial rule.
o Most Catholic Goans, specially expats in places like Africa or
Mumbai, don't have strong views one way or another. In any case,
they hardly had strong links with Goa, apart from that yearly
holiday and a notional sense of belonging. Many moved from
post-colonial East Africa to the West or wherever.
o Goa, being the tightly hierarchically-controlled society it
was (and in some ways, still is), the large bulk of the population
did not benefit from Portuguese colonial rule. Take me,
with fairly plebian roots. My parents had to scour half the
globe to make a living; and we never felt we gained anything
from Portuguese colonialism. Except Konkani being replaced
by English, accidentally due to generations of migration.
(This, in a globalised world, perhaps stands in good stead.)
o On the other hand, a post-1961 generation of Goans has also
grown up, which owns its position to New Delhi. I would say
that loud one-sided protests from this side, without being
honest about the current reality, is also questionable.
This transends the religious divide, just as the
pro-Portuguese lobby prior to 1961 included both Catholics
*and* Hindus unlike what is sometimes now made out to be.
o Catholic Goans who were in Goa around 1961 (and specially those
who left soon later) seem to have had the most difficulty in
coping with the abrupt transition. Many still seem to nurse
the 'hurt of the 'sixties' (i.e. coping with a post-colonial
situation, which they saw as being marked by discriminatory
policies against them e.g. jobs to 'deputationists' etc).
I have friends here who changed their medium of education
overnight from Portuguese to English. Some never managed
to make the transition... at a personal level, it's sad.
o Unlike some intellectuals of the past generation who
painted themselves into a corner by their
defensive-about-colonialism policies, the younger generation
of Catholic Goans largely is free of such hang-ups. This
gives them a chance to claim their place as equal
citizens in society. Regardless of persistent attempts
to communalise issues, and related challenges.
o Integration with the Indian Union may have actually
opened up more opportunities for the average Goan in
Goa, regardless of his religious orientation. A
psychological sense of loss, if it is there, is hard to
assuage any way.
o It is the above lobby which, wittingly or otherwise,
takes advantage of the criticism targeted at Goan
society (mainly with the agenda of stemming the rot
and/or improving things) to suit their own agenda, i.e.
of making a case that Portuguese colonialism (it's
never called that though) was a better option.
o An 'independent Goa' as suggested by some seems to be
more of an afterthought by those unable to adjust to
their new (less-priviledged) status in a changing
society. This idea could easily end in Goa turning
into a hopelessly misgoverned basketcase,
manipulated by other powers, bearing some
resemblances to Nepal (palace coups, corrupt
politicians, terrible poverty aside opulence) and
Sri Lanka (civil war, a playground for international
rivarly). From my little experience here, there are
no signs to believe that Goa produces men of a
superior quality than the average Indian politician;
infact they're a lot worse. Think of the leading
lights we've had; and don't believe the whitewash
and spin that a friendly press is currently
giving Parrikar.
o Various expat groups, egged on by their homesickness,
need to justify their own decision of shifting out,
and financial clout, have fuelled the politics of
hate back home. This has happened among fringe
elements of expat Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Should
we really want Christians to follow this pain-filled
road? I think not... FN

PS: My personal view is that those supporting the pre-1961 state of
affairs in Goa are so few, that they're often forced to resort to
email pseudonymns to increase their numbers. Isn't that obvious from the
arguments which keep repeating themselves... we know where they come from.
Frederick Noronha (FN)
2003-04-16 18:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidney Fernandes
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself. I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
One agrees without reservation with Sidney. In my view, those who were
upset by the end of Portuguese colonial rule in Goa are rather limited in
number. But since they are so active in repeatedly stating their point of
view, it tends to give misleading impression that "most Catholics" were
and are pro-colonial.

Were? One cannot be sure; since one was not around at that time. Public
opinion (as in the US attack on Iraq) was rather limited to what the
administrations wanted people to think, either pro-Portuguese or
pro-Indian. There were few independent views then. But the post-1961
generation is IMHO very well adjusted to the situation; and that's too
their benefit.

Some other theses which I would like to suggest on this issue, open to
debate:

o Those who shout the loudest are those who lost (or feel they lost)
the most in terms of status and priviledge or power from the
admittedly abrupt end of Portuguese colonial rule.
o Most Catholic Goans, specially expats in places like Africa or
Mumbai, don't have strong views one way or another. In any case,
they hardly had strong links with Goa, apart from that yearly
holiday and a notional sense of belonging. Many moved from
post-colonial East Africa to the West or wherever.
o Goa, being the tightly hierarchically-controlled society it
was (and in some ways, still is), the large bulk of the population
did not benefit from Portuguese colonial rule. Take me,
with fairly plebian roots. My parents had to scour half the
globe to make a living; and we never felt we gained anything
from Portuguese colonialism. Except Konkani being replaced
by English, accidentally due to generations of migration.
(This, in a globalised world, perhaps stands in good stead.)
o On the other hand, a post-1961 generation of Goans has also
grown up, which owns its position to New Delhi. I would say
that loud one-sided protests from this side, without being
honest about the current reality, is also questionable.
This transends the religious divide, just as the
pro-Portuguese lobby prior to 1961 included both Catholics
*and* Hindus unlike what is sometimes now made out to be.
o Catholic Goans who were in Goa around 1961 (and specially those
who left soon later) seem to have had the most difficulty in
coping with the abrupt transition. Many still seem to nurse
the 'hurt of the 'sixties' (i.e. coping with a post-colonial
situation, which they saw as being marked by discriminatory
policies against them e.g. jobs to 'deputationists' etc).
I have friends here who changed their medium of education
overnight from Portuguese to English. Some never managed
to make the transition... at a personal level, it's sad.
o Unlike some intellectuals of the past generation who
painted themselves into a corner by their
defensive-about-colonialism policies, the younger generation
of Catholic Goans largely is free of such hang-ups. This
gives them a chance to claim their place as equal
citizens in society. Regardless of persistent attempts
to communalise issues, and related challenges.
o Integration with the Indian Union may have actually
opened up more opportunities for the average Goan in
Goa, regardless of his religious orientation. A
psychological sense of loss, if it is there, is hard to
assuage any way.
o It is the above lobby which, wittingly or otherwise,
takes advantage of the criticism targeted at Goan
society (mainly with the agenda of stemming the rot
and/or improving things) to suit their own agenda, i.e.
of making a case that Portuguese colonialism (it's
never called that though) was a better option.
o An 'independent Goa' as suggested by some seems to be
more of an afterthought by those unable to adjust to
their new (less-priviledged) status in a changing
society. This idea could easily end in Goa turning
into a hopelessly misgoverned basketcase,
manipulated by other powers, bearing some
resemblances to Nepal (palace coups, corrupt
politicians, terrible poverty aside opulence) and
Sri Lanka (civil war, a playground for international
rivarly). From my little experience here, there are
no signs to believe that Goa produces men of a
superior quality than the average Indian politician;
infact they're a lot worse. Think of the leading
lights we've had; and don't believe the whitewash
and spin that a friendly press is currently
giving Parrikar.
o Various expat groups, egged on by their homesickness,
need to justify their own decision of shifting out,
and financial clout, have fuelled the politics of
hate back home. This has happened among fringe
elements of expat Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Should
we really want Christians to follow this pain-filled
road? I think not... FN

PS: My personal view is that those supporting the pre-1961 state of
affairs in Goa are so few, that they're often forced to resort to
email pseudonymns to increase their numbers. Isn't that obvious from the
arguments which keep repeating themselves... we know where they come from.
Frederick Noronha (FN)
2003-04-16 18:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidney Fernandes
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself. I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
One agrees without reservation with Sidney. In my view, those who were
upset by the end of Portuguese colonial rule in Goa are rather limited in
number. But since they are so active in repeatedly stating their point of
view, it tends to give misleading impression that "most Catholics" were
and are pro-colonial.

Were? One cannot be sure; since one was not around at that time. Public
opinion (as in the US attack on Iraq) was rather limited to what the
administrations wanted people to think, either pro-Portuguese or
pro-Indian. There were few independent views then. But the post-1961
generation is IMHO very well adjusted to the situation; and that's too
their benefit.

Some other theses which I would like to suggest on this issue, open to
debate:

o Those who shout the loudest are those who lost (or feel they lost)
the most in terms of status and priviledge or power from the
admittedly abrupt end of Portuguese colonial rule.
o Most Catholic Goans, specially expats in places like Africa or
Mumbai, don't have strong views one way or another. In any case,
they hardly had strong links with Goa, apart from that yearly
holiday and a notional sense of belonging. Many moved from
post-colonial East Africa to the West or wherever.
o Goa, being the tightly hierarchically-controlled society it
was (and in some ways, still is), the large bulk of the population
did not benefit from Portuguese colonial rule. Take me,
with fairly plebian roots. My parents had to scour half the
globe to make a living; and we never felt we gained anything
from Portuguese colonialism. Except Konkani being replaced
by English, accidentally due to generations of migration.
(This, in a globalised world, perhaps stands in good stead.)
o On the other hand, a post-1961 generation of Goans has also
grown up, which owns its position to New Delhi. I would say
that loud one-sided protests from this side, without being
honest about the current reality, is also questionable.
This transends the religious divide, just as the
pro-Portuguese lobby prior to 1961 included both Catholics
*and* Hindus unlike what is sometimes now made out to be.
o Catholic Goans who were in Goa around 1961 (and specially those
who left soon later) seem to have had the most difficulty in
coping with the abrupt transition. Many still seem to nurse
the 'hurt of the 'sixties' (i.e. coping with a post-colonial
situation, which they saw as being marked by discriminatory
policies against them e.g. jobs to 'deputationists' etc).
I have friends here who changed their medium of education
overnight from Portuguese to English. Some never managed
to make the transition... at a personal level, it's sad.
o Unlike some intellectuals of the past generation who
painted themselves into a corner by their
defensive-about-colonialism policies, the younger generation
of Catholic Goans largely is free of such hang-ups. This
gives them a chance to claim their place as equal
citizens in society. Regardless of persistent attempts
to communalise issues, and related challenges.
o Integration with the Indian Union may have actually
opened up more opportunities for the average Goan in
Goa, regardless of his religious orientation. A
psychological sense of loss, if it is there, is hard to
assuage any way.
o It is the above lobby which, wittingly or otherwise,
takes advantage of the criticism targeted at Goan
society (mainly with the agenda of stemming the rot
and/or improving things) to suit their own agenda, i.e.
of making a case that Portuguese colonialism (it's
never called that though) was a better option.
o An 'independent Goa' as suggested by some seems to be
more of an afterthought by those unable to adjust to
their new (less-priviledged) status in a changing
society. This idea could easily end in Goa turning
into a hopelessly misgoverned basketcase,
manipulated by other powers, bearing some
resemblances to Nepal (palace coups, corrupt
politicians, terrible poverty aside opulence) and
Sri Lanka (civil war, a playground for international
rivarly). From my little experience here, there are
no signs to believe that Goa produces men of a
superior quality than the average Indian politician;
infact they're a lot worse. Think of the leading
lights we've had; and don't believe the whitewash
and spin that a friendly press is currently
giving Parrikar.
o Various expat groups, egged on by their homesickness,
need to justify their own decision of shifting out,
and financial clout, have fuelled the politics of
hate back home. This has happened among fringe
elements of expat Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Should
we really want Christians to follow this pain-filled
road? I think not... FN

PS: My personal view is that those supporting the pre-1961 state of
affairs in Goa are so few, that they're often forced to resort to
email pseudonymns to increase their numbers. Isn't that obvious from the
arguments which keep repeating themselves... we know where they come from.
Frederick Noronha (FN)
2003-04-16 18:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidney Fernandes
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself. I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
One agrees without reservation with Sidney. In my view, those who were
upset by the end of Portuguese colonial rule in Goa are rather limited in
number. But since they are so active in repeatedly stating their point of
view, it tends to give misleading impression that "most Catholics" were
and are pro-colonial.

Were? One cannot be sure; since one was not around at that time. Public
opinion (as in the US attack on Iraq) was rather limited to what the
administrations wanted people to think, either pro-Portuguese or
pro-Indian. There were few independent views then. But the post-1961
generation is IMHO very well adjusted to the situation; and that's too
their benefit.

Some other theses which I would like to suggest on this issue, open to
debate:

o Those who shout the loudest are those who lost (or feel they lost)
the most in terms of status and priviledge or power from the
admittedly abrupt end of Portuguese colonial rule.
o Most Catholic Goans, specially expats in places like Africa or
Mumbai, don't have strong views one way or another. In any case,
they hardly had strong links with Goa, apart from that yearly
holiday and a notional sense of belonging. Many moved from
post-colonial East Africa to the West or wherever.
o Goa, being the tightly hierarchically-controlled society it
was (and in some ways, still is), the large bulk of the population
did not benefit from Portuguese colonial rule. Take me,
with fairly plebian roots. My parents had to scour half the
globe to make a living; and we never felt we gained anything
from Portuguese colonialism. Except Konkani being replaced
by English, accidentally due to generations of migration.
(This, in a globalised world, perhaps stands in good stead.)
o On the other hand, a post-1961 generation of Goans has also
grown up, which owns its position to New Delhi. I would say
that loud one-sided protests from this side, without being
honest about the current reality, is also questionable.
This transends the religious divide, just as the
pro-Portuguese lobby prior to 1961 included both Catholics
*and* Hindus unlike what is sometimes now made out to be.
o Catholic Goans who were in Goa around 1961 (and specially those
who left soon later) seem to have had the most difficulty in
coping with the abrupt transition. Many still seem to nurse
the 'hurt of the 'sixties' (i.e. coping with a post-colonial
situation, which they saw as being marked by discriminatory
policies against them e.g. jobs to 'deputationists' etc).
I have friends here who changed their medium of education
overnight from Portuguese to English. Some never managed
to make the transition... at a personal level, it's sad.
o Unlike some intellectuals of the past generation who
painted themselves into a corner by their
defensive-about-colonialism policies, the younger generation
of Catholic Goans largely is free of such hang-ups. This
gives them a chance to claim their place as equal
citizens in society. Regardless of persistent attempts
to communalise issues, and related challenges.
o Integration with the Indian Union may have actually
opened up more opportunities for the average Goan in
Goa, regardless of his religious orientation. A
psychological sense of loss, if it is there, is hard to
assuage any way.
o It is the above lobby which, wittingly or otherwise,
takes advantage of the criticism targeted at Goan
society (mainly with the agenda of stemming the rot
and/or improving things) to suit their own agenda, i.e.
of making a case that Portuguese colonialism (it's
never called that though) was a better option.
o An 'independent Goa' as suggested by some seems to be
more of an afterthought by those unable to adjust to
their new (less-priviledged) status in a changing
society. This idea could easily end in Goa turning
into a hopelessly misgoverned basketcase,
manipulated by other powers, bearing some
resemblances to Nepal (palace coups, corrupt
politicians, terrible poverty aside opulence) and
Sri Lanka (civil war, a playground for international
rivarly). From my little experience here, there are
no signs to believe that Goa produces men of a
superior quality than the average Indian politician;
infact they're a lot worse. Think of the leading
lights we've had; and don't believe the whitewash
and spin that a friendly press is currently
giving Parrikar.
o Various expat groups, egged on by their homesickness,
need to justify their own decision of shifting out,
and financial clout, have fuelled the politics of
hate back home. This has happened among fringe
elements of expat Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims. Should
we really want Christians to follow this pain-filled
road? I think not... FN

PS: My personal view is that those supporting the pre-1961 state of
affairs in Goa are so few, that they're often forced to resort to
email pseudonymns to increase their numbers. Isn't that obvious from the
arguments which keep repeating themselves... we know where they come from.
Tim de Mello
2003-04-16 14:59:29 UTC
Permalink
I agree totally with Sidney.

No one on this forum has the right to speak on our collective behalf.

Please refrain from using words like "we (Goan Catholics) . . ". Just speak
for yourself.

Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA
From: Sidney Fernandes <sfernand at hsc.usf.edu>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Gilbert & Tariq
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:07:23 -0400
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
-----------
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself . I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
--
***************************************************
Sidney Fernandes sfernand at hsc.usf.edu
Database Administrator
University of South Florida
Health Sciences Center Information Systems
*****************************************************
"I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I know);
Their names are What and Why and When and How
and Where and Who."
----Rudyard Kipling
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
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http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Carmo Dias
2003-04-10 16:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!

Smiles and flowers greet Marines
Reuters |Baghdad | 10-04-2003
?Gulf News

Hundreds of jubilant Iraqis mobbed a convoy of U.S. Marines yesterday,
cheering, dancing and waving as American troops swept towards central
Baghdad through slums and leafy suburbs from the east.

Crowds threw flowers at the Marines as they drove past the Martyrs'
Monument, just three km east of the central Jumhuriya Bridge over the Tigris
river.

Young and middle-aged men, many wearing soccer shirts of leading Western
clubs like Manchester United, shouted "Hello, hello" as Marines advanced
through the rundown sprawl of Saddam City and then more prosperous suburbs
with villas and trim lawns.

"No more Saddam Hussain," chanted one group, waving to troops as they
passed. "We love you, we love you."

One young man ran alongside a Marine armoured personnel carrier trying to
hand over a heavy belt of ammunition.

An older man made a wild kicking gesture with his foot, saying "Goodbye
Saddam".

Women waved from balconies, girls threw flower petals at young Marines
leaning across gun turrets. One woman held her baby aloft. Tank crews
picked the flowers from the tops of their fighting machines, smelt them and
grinned.

One man shouted to a soldier: "Is it over?".

"Almost," came the Marine's reply.

"To be honest, I'm happy it appears they're not going to fight. I was a
little nervous when the crowd was so exuberant, we've heard so much about
suicide bombings and drive-by shootings," said Captain Dan Rose.

"We are the lead regiment now. We are the furthest forward of anyone,"
Colonel John Toolan, commander of 1st Marine Regiment, told Reuters.

"I believe we are on the last leg."

At one point, the Marine convoy of over a dozen armoured vehicles halted,
spotting a blue flat-bed truck partly concealed behind a high brick wall.

Within seconds, U.S. heavy machineguns had taken it out causing a huge
explosion, sending up a fireball and scattering the crowds who ran for
cover.

Moments later, Marines came across four "ready to fire" SA-2 missiles
covered by tarpaulin by the roadside.

Earlier, U.S. tanks simply ran over any small arm weaponry they found and
destroyed abandoned heavy artillery pieces.

Lance Corporal Justin Cleaves, 26, having his photograph taken next to the
SA-2 missiles, said: "It was pretty crazy coming through all those people
throwing flowers. They were real happy to see us. "It looks as though the
(Iraqi) troops just dropped everything and ran," he said.

There were no Iraqi soldiers or police in sight. People in the crowds said
the troops had left on Tuesday.

Nearer Baghdad centre, people were everywhere, running across roads and down
narrow side streets carrying whatever they could lay their hands on.

Cars and trucks heaved and spluttered, piled high with furniture,
refrigerators, clothing, tyres ? all apparently looted from shops and
government offices.

"I'm happy to be here, but a little disappointed there weren't more soldiers
to fight...still, it's a good feeling knowing people are that afraid of us,"
said 32-year-old Sergeant Brian Dow. "I kinda felt like Madonna there,
having flowers thown at me."

Kuwaiti television, meanwhile, trumpeted the joy of Iraqis after the fall of
Baghdad to U.S. troops, with a presenter saying it is a "slap in the face"
to those Arabs who sided with Saddam Hussain.

Other Arab media were more subdued about the U.S. military success in Iraq.
Kuwait Television showed footage of an old Iraqi man using his shoe to hit a
poster of Saddam Hussain and screaming "This is freedom!"

The state channel's presenter voiced over the clip: "This is a slap in the
face to all those who believed Saddam Hussain could stay in power."

Kuwait has been heavily criticised in the Arab world in recent weeks for
being the only Arab country to openly back the U.S. invasion of Iraq and for
granting the United States use of its territory to launch the offensive.

"This is the day of great jubilation, the day of rebuilding Iraq," a member
of the London-based Iraqi opposition, Faek Sheik Ali, told Kuwaiti
television.

Ali applauded Kuwait's media for their coverage of the war, saying Iraqi
dissidents were baffled as to why other Arab channels had supported a
dictator against his people.

Few Arab television stations outside Kuwait have hosted Iraqis who opposed
the rule of Saddam Hussain.

On Wednesday, the popular Al-Jazeera satellite channel reported that
American tanks had taken up position in front of the Palestine Hotel, where
foreign journalists are based and where Iraqi Information Minister Mohamm-ed
Saeed Al Sahhaf gave a press conference Tuesday.

"The surreal scene this afternoon was unthinkable until yesterday. Nobody
could dream of it. If someone had told me this, I would have told him
'impossible'," said Al-Jazeera's reporter Maher Abdullah.

Abdullah said the U.S. troops were "friendly ... there is a kind of strange
harmony between the invading force, now occupying force, and the citizens
... An unusual and unexpected calm."

At one point, Abdullah referred to a Saddam monument as a statue of "the
former president."

Iraqi exiles living in London stormed the former Iraqi embassy in the
capital.government in Baghdad. The embassy has stood empty since Britain
ordered Iraq's last diplomat in London, who worked at a scaled-down mission
called an Interests Section under the umbrella of the Jordanian Embassy, to
leave the country last month.

"They had to force entry but it was a peaceful takeover," Zuhair Al Maher, a
member of the Iraqi opposition and one of the organisers, said. "There are
about 60 of us and our intention is to publicise our relief and jubilation
at the downfall of Saddam's regime.""

A spokeswoman for London police said they had made more than 20 arrests for
criminal damage but were still dealing with the incident in west London. "It
is still hard to take in but this is one of the happiest days in the history
of the Iraqi people," Al Maher said.


_________________________________________________________________
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-11 11:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to see
in the future?

In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa. We know what
happened for the next four hundred years.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-11 22:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to
see
in the future? In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa.
We know what happened for the next four hundred years. Tariq Siddiqui

Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'? Well if they went to the Arab
countries that they supposedly admire, they would not be given a right
to vote or even called citizens after spending a lifetime of
contribution. Instead of crying about how depraved these victims are
(and they are depraved!) how about doing something practical and working
physically for their cause instead of sitting in front of the computer
in the comforts of our study. I suggest taking our next vacation and
volunteer to serve the people in Iraq. Let's see some GoaNetters put
some of our money and efforts where our thoughts are. As they say- talk
is cheap or let's walk the talk. Regards GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-12 21:57:58 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org [mailto:goanet-admin at goanet.org] On Behalf
Of Tariq Siddiqui
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 2:43 PM

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

Tariq Siddiqui

Response: Don't be sad. Do something about it. I suggest you take your
next vacation and help the Iraqis.

I did not know that the opposition to this Iraq war was linked to the
Portuguese 450 years ago in India (which you referred to). Again a very
selective reading of history. If you want to talk history, the next time
we talk of Portuguese in Goa, let's talk about the Muslim rule in Goa
and the Muslim rule in Portugal and Spain a hundred years prior to that.
I wonder how many smiles and flowers from the natives greeted these
invading armies. GL.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-13 00:33:50 UTC
Permalink
The following was an excellent and informative news article.
The biggest injustice against Muslims today is undertaken by the Muslim
governments against their own kin. Of the more than 50 Muslim countries
in the world only three have true democratic governments - Turkey,
Bangladesh and Malaysia. Of the many Arab and Muslim friends that I
have, I notice they are very articulate and intelligent. But they appear
to be paralyzed in thought and action when it comes to facing their own.
It is unconscionable that the prior Afghanistan Government should have
destroyed the Buddhist statues of the sixth century BCE while the rest
of the Muslim (and Christian) world just stood-by.

There is absolutely no rationale for functioning monarchies in the 21t
century appointing their kin as Prime ministers. Similarly, there is no
rational basis for the Arab countries not to give citizenship to the
people who live, work and give their blood and life for the place. They
should at least give citizenship to other Arabs and Muslims. That should
be a first place to start fighting for justice for the Arabs. Regards GL


Muslim-Christian Unity need of the hour:


MUSLIMS and Christians have to jointly fight against
the injustices perpetrated against Palestinians and
Iraqis, noted Islamic scholar Sheikh Dr Yusuf
al-Qaradawi said. Dr Qaradawi was speaking to a
Catholic delegation from Vatican, who visited him
yesterday along with Public Health Minister HE Dr
Hajar Ahmed Hajar, at the Hamad Hospital, where he is recovering from a
surgery.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-13 04:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Tariq:
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful, may
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule of
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who are
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-15 00:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful,
may
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule
of
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who
are
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
I apologize if such renderings on my part have hurt your feelings. That
was not my intention. As I have maintained always, it does not bother me
a
bit what the nature of Portuguese rule was, and the consequences of this
rule. However, this does not mean that there cannot be any
discussion of Portuguese rule in Goa.

If I am misinformed on Portuguese rule in Goa, please feel free to
correct
me. Jorge Noronha is the only person on this forum who I notice, takes
the effort to impassionately try and correct some of the errors that
creep up during these discussions. This is how you serve and protect
your
heritage, not by issuing rejoinders on Muslim Sultans only because I am
a
Muslim.

Answer:
Tariq: I will be happy to dialogue with you, briefly or extensively, on
Portuguese and Muslim (we do not wan to be biased) rule in Goa.
Hopefully both of us can learn. With due respect to you and to the
GoaNetters, it is you who in unrelated conversation and subjects throws
a one-line reference on Portuguese rule in Goa. If you refer to your
recent messages on Goanet, there was reference of US invasion of Iraq
and linking it again in one-line to Portuguese rule in Goa. Unless of
course you think that Goans on the net have no idea of invasion or
colonialism outside the Portuguese context. So I would suggest that if
you are itching to revisit Portuguese rule in Goa let us do so as a
subject by itself, which it deserves, rather than a one-line derogatory
remark on 450 years of history. I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
George Pinto
2003-04-15 21:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Gilbert:

I am confused about your message above to Tariq. Are you saying Goan Catholics speak with one
voice regarding Portuguese rule? I have met some who speak favorably, others unfavorably, and
others who are neutral.

I am guess I am missing your point.

George

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com
Sidney Fernandes
2003-04-16 14:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
-----------
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself . I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
--
***************************************************
Sidney Fernandes sfernand at hsc.usf.edu
Database Administrator
University of South Florida
Health Sciences Center Information Systems

*****************************************************
"I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I know);
Their names are What and Why and When and How
and Where and Who."
----Rudyard Kipling
Tim de Mello
2003-04-16 14:59:29 UTC
Permalink
I agree totally with Sidney.

No one on this forum has the right to speak on our collective behalf.

Please refrain from using words like "we (Goan Catholics) . . ". Just speak
for yourself.

Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA
From: Sidney Fernandes <sfernand at hsc.usf.edu>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Gilbert & Tariq
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:07:23 -0400
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
-----------
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself . I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
--
***************************************************
Sidney Fernandes sfernand at hsc.usf.edu
Database Administrator
University of South Florida
Health Sciences Center Information Systems
*****************************************************
"I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I know);
Their names are What and Why and When and How
and Where and Who."
----Rudyard Kipling
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Carmo Dias
2003-04-10 16:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!

Smiles and flowers greet Marines
Reuters |Baghdad | 10-04-2003
?Gulf News

Hundreds of jubilant Iraqis mobbed a convoy of U.S. Marines yesterday,
cheering, dancing and waving as American troops swept towards central
Baghdad through slums and leafy suburbs from the east.

Crowds threw flowers at the Marines as they drove past the Martyrs'
Monument, just three km east of the central Jumhuriya Bridge over the Tigris
river.

Young and middle-aged men, many wearing soccer shirts of leading Western
clubs like Manchester United, shouted "Hello, hello" as Marines advanced
through the rundown sprawl of Saddam City and then more prosperous suburbs
with villas and trim lawns.

"No more Saddam Hussain," chanted one group, waving to troops as they
passed. "We love you, we love you."

One young man ran alongside a Marine armoured personnel carrier trying to
hand over a heavy belt of ammunition.

An older man made a wild kicking gesture with his foot, saying "Goodbye
Saddam".

Women waved from balconies, girls threw flower petals at young Marines
leaning across gun turrets. One woman held her baby aloft. Tank crews
picked the flowers from the tops of their fighting machines, smelt them and
grinned.

One man shouted to a soldier: "Is it over?".

"Almost," came the Marine's reply.

"To be honest, I'm happy it appears they're not going to fight. I was a
little nervous when the crowd was so exuberant, we've heard so much about
suicide bombings and drive-by shootings," said Captain Dan Rose.

"We are the lead regiment now. We are the furthest forward of anyone,"
Colonel John Toolan, commander of 1st Marine Regiment, told Reuters.

"I believe we are on the last leg."

At one point, the Marine convoy of over a dozen armoured vehicles halted,
spotting a blue flat-bed truck partly concealed behind a high brick wall.

Within seconds, U.S. heavy machineguns had taken it out causing a huge
explosion, sending up a fireball and scattering the crowds who ran for
cover.

Moments later, Marines came across four "ready to fire" SA-2 missiles
covered by tarpaulin by the roadside.

Earlier, U.S. tanks simply ran over any small arm weaponry they found and
destroyed abandoned heavy artillery pieces.

Lance Corporal Justin Cleaves, 26, having his photograph taken next to the
SA-2 missiles, said: "It was pretty crazy coming through all those people
throwing flowers. They were real happy to see us. "It looks as though the
(Iraqi) troops just dropped everything and ran," he said.

There were no Iraqi soldiers or police in sight. People in the crowds said
the troops had left on Tuesday.

Nearer Baghdad centre, people were everywhere, running across roads and down
narrow side streets carrying whatever they could lay their hands on.

Cars and trucks heaved and spluttered, piled high with furniture,
refrigerators, clothing, tyres ? all apparently looted from shops and
government offices.

"I'm happy to be here, but a little disappointed there weren't more soldiers
to fight...still, it's a good feeling knowing people are that afraid of us,"
said 32-year-old Sergeant Brian Dow. "I kinda felt like Madonna there,
having flowers thown at me."

Kuwaiti television, meanwhile, trumpeted the joy of Iraqis after the fall of
Baghdad to U.S. troops, with a presenter saying it is a "slap in the face"
to those Arabs who sided with Saddam Hussain.

Other Arab media were more subdued about the U.S. military success in Iraq.
Kuwait Television showed footage of an old Iraqi man using his shoe to hit a
poster of Saddam Hussain and screaming "This is freedom!"

The state channel's presenter voiced over the clip: "This is a slap in the
face to all those who believed Saddam Hussain could stay in power."

Kuwait has been heavily criticised in the Arab world in recent weeks for
being the only Arab country to openly back the U.S. invasion of Iraq and for
granting the United States use of its territory to launch the offensive.

"This is the day of great jubilation, the day of rebuilding Iraq," a member
of the London-based Iraqi opposition, Faek Sheik Ali, told Kuwaiti
television.

Ali applauded Kuwait's media for their coverage of the war, saying Iraqi
dissidents were baffled as to why other Arab channels had supported a
dictator against his people.

Few Arab television stations outside Kuwait have hosted Iraqis who opposed
the rule of Saddam Hussain.

On Wednesday, the popular Al-Jazeera satellite channel reported that
American tanks had taken up position in front of the Palestine Hotel, where
foreign journalists are based and where Iraqi Information Minister Mohamm-ed
Saeed Al Sahhaf gave a press conference Tuesday.

"The surreal scene this afternoon was unthinkable until yesterday. Nobody
could dream of it. If someone had told me this, I would have told him
'impossible'," said Al-Jazeera's reporter Maher Abdullah.

Abdullah said the U.S. troops were "friendly ... there is a kind of strange
harmony between the invading force, now occupying force, and the citizens
... An unusual and unexpected calm."

At one point, Abdullah referred to a Saddam monument as a statue of "the
former president."

Iraqi exiles living in London stormed the former Iraqi embassy in the
capital.government in Baghdad. The embassy has stood empty since Britain
ordered Iraq's last diplomat in London, who worked at a scaled-down mission
called an Interests Section under the umbrella of the Jordanian Embassy, to
leave the country last month.

"They had to force entry but it was a peaceful takeover," Zuhair Al Maher, a
member of the Iraqi opposition and one of the organisers, said. "There are
about 60 of us and our intention is to publicise our relief and jubilation
at the downfall of Saddam's regime.""

A spokeswoman for London police said they had made more than 20 arrests for
criminal damage but were still dealing with the incident in west London. "It
is still hard to take in but this is one of the happiest days in the history
of the Iraqi people," Al Maher said.


_________________________________________________________________
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-11 11:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to see
in the future?

In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa. We know what
happened for the next four hundred years.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-11 22:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to
see
in the future? In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa.
We know what happened for the next four hundred years. Tariq Siddiqui

Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'? Well if they went to the Arab
countries that they supposedly admire, they would not be given a right
to vote or even called citizens after spending a lifetime of
contribution. Instead of crying about how depraved these victims are
(and they are depraved!) how about doing something practical and working
physically for their cause instead of sitting in front of the computer
in the comforts of our study. I suggest taking our next vacation and
volunteer to serve the people in Iraq. Let's see some GoaNetters put
some of our money and efforts where our thoughts are. As they say- talk
is cheap or let's walk the talk. Regards GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-12 21:57:58 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org [mailto:goanet-admin at goanet.org] On Behalf
Of Tariq Siddiqui
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 2:43 PM

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

Tariq Siddiqui

Response: Don't be sad. Do something about it. I suggest you take your
next vacation and help the Iraqis.

I did not know that the opposition to this Iraq war was linked to the
Portuguese 450 years ago in India (which you referred to). Again a very
selective reading of history. If you want to talk history, the next time
we talk of Portuguese in Goa, let's talk about the Muslim rule in Goa
and the Muslim rule in Portugal and Spain a hundred years prior to that.
I wonder how many smiles and flowers from the natives greeted these
invading armies. GL.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-13 00:33:50 UTC
Permalink
The following was an excellent and informative news article.
The biggest injustice against Muslims today is undertaken by the Muslim
governments against their own kin. Of the more than 50 Muslim countries
in the world only three have true democratic governments - Turkey,
Bangladesh and Malaysia. Of the many Arab and Muslim friends that I
have, I notice they are very articulate and intelligent. But they appear
to be paralyzed in thought and action when it comes to facing their own.
It is unconscionable that the prior Afghanistan Government should have
destroyed the Buddhist statues of the sixth century BCE while the rest
of the Muslim (and Christian) world just stood-by.

There is absolutely no rationale for functioning monarchies in the 21t
century appointing their kin as Prime ministers. Similarly, there is no
rational basis for the Arab countries not to give citizenship to the
people who live, work and give their blood and life for the place. They
should at least give citizenship to other Arabs and Muslims. That should
be a first place to start fighting for justice for the Arabs. Regards GL


Muslim-Christian Unity need of the hour:


MUSLIMS and Christians have to jointly fight against
the injustices perpetrated against Palestinians and
Iraqis, noted Islamic scholar Sheikh Dr Yusuf
al-Qaradawi said. Dr Qaradawi was speaking to a
Catholic delegation from Vatican, who visited him
yesterday along with Public Health Minister HE Dr
Hajar Ahmed Hajar, at the Hamad Hospital, where he is recovering from a
surgery.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-13 04:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Tariq:
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful, may
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule of
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who are
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-15 00:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful,
may
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule
of
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who
are
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
I apologize if such renderings on my part have hurt your feelings. That
was not my intention. As I have maintained always, it does not bother me
a
bit what the nature of Portuguese rule was, and the consequences of this
rule. However, this does not mean that there cannot be any
discussion of Portuguese rule in Goa.

If I am misinformed on Portuguese rule in Goa, please feel free to
correct
me. Jorge Noronha is the only person on this forum who I notice, takes
the effort to impassionately try and correct some of the errors that
creep up during these discussions. This is how you serve and protect
your
heritage, not by issuing rejoinders on Muslim Sultans only because I am
a
Muslim.

Answer:
Tariq: I will be happy to dialogue with you, briefly or extensively, on
Portuguese and Muslim (we do not wan to be biased) rule in Goa.
Hopefully both of us can learn. With due respect to you and to the
GoaNetters, it is you who in unrelated conversation and subjects throws
a one-line reference on Portuguese rule in Goa. If you refer to your
recent messages on Goanet, there was reference of US invasion of Iraq
and linking it again in one-line to Portuguese rule in Goa. Unless of
course you think that Goans on the net have no idea of invasion or
colonialism outside the Portuguese context. So I would suggest that if
you are itching to revisit Portuguese rule in Goa let us do so as a
subject by itself, which it deserves, rather than a one-line derogatory
remark on 450 years of history. I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
George Pinto
2003-04-15 21:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Gilbert:

I am confused about your message above to Tariq. Are you saying Goan Catholics speak with one
voice regarding Portuguese rule? I have met some who speak favorably, others unfavorably, and
others who are neutral.

I am guess I am missing your point.

George

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com
Sidney Fernandes
2003-04-16 14:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
-----------
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself . I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
--
***************************************************
Sidney Fernandes sfernand at hsc.usf.edu
Database Administrator
University of South Florida
Health Sciences Center Information Systems

*****************************************************
"I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I know);
Their names are What and Why and When and How
and Where and Who."
----Rudyard Kipling
Tim de Mello
2003-04-16 14:59:29 UTC
Permalink
I agree totally with Sidney.

No one on this forum has the right to speak on our collective behalf.

Please refrain from using words like "we (Goan Catholics) . . ". Just speak
for yourself.

Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA
From: Sidney Fernandes <sfernand at hsc.usf.edu>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Gilbert & Tariq
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:07:23 -0400
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
-----------
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself . I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
--
***************************************************
Sidney Fernandes sfernand at hsc.usf.edu
Database Administrator
University of South Florida
Health Sciences Center Information Systems
*****************************************************
"I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I know);
Their names are What and Why and When and How
and Where and Who."
----Rudyard Kipling
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Carmo Dias
2003-04-10 16:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!

Smiles and flowers greet Marines
Reuters |Baghdad | 10-04-2003
?Gulf News

Hundreds of jubilant Iraqis mobbed a convoy of U.S. Marines yesterday,
cheering, dancing and waving as American troops swept towards central
Baghdad through slums and leafy suburbs from the east.

Crowds threw flowers at the Marines as they drove past the Martyrs'
Monument, just three km east of the central Jumhuriya Bridge over the Tigris
river.

Young and middle-aged men, many wearing soccer shirts of leading Western
clubs like Manchester United, shouted "Hello, hello" as Marines advanced
through the rundown sprawl of Saddam City and then more prosperous suburbs
with villas and trim lawns.

"No more Saddam Hussain," chanted one group, waving to troops as they
passed. "We love you, we love you."

One young man ran alongside a Marine armoured personnel carrier trying to
hand over a heavy belt of ammunition.

An older man made a wild kicking gesture with his foot, saying "Goodbye
Saddam".

Women waved from balconies, girls threw flower petals at young Marines
leaning across gun turrets. One woman held her baby aloft. Tank crews
picked the flowers from the tops of their fighting machines, smelt them and
grinned.

One man shouted to a soldier: "Is it over?".

"Almost," came the Marine's reply.

"To be honest, I'm happy it appears they're not going to fight. I was a
little nervous when the crowd was so exuberant, we've heard so much about
suicide bombings and drive-by shootings," said Captain Dan Rose.

"We are the lead regiment now. We are the furthest forward of anyone,"
Colonel John Toolan, commander of 1st Marine Regiment, told Reuters.

"I believe we are on the last leg."

At one point, the Marine convoy of over a dozen armoured vehicles halted,
spotting a blue flat-bed truck partly concealed behind a high brick wall.

Within seconds, U.S. heavy machineguns had taken it out causing a huge
explosion, sending up a fireball and scattering the crowds who ran for
cover.

Moments later, Marines came across four "ready to fire" SA-2 missiles
covered by tarpaulin by the roadside.

Earlier, U.S. tanks simply ran over any small arm weaponry they found and
destroyed abandoned heavy artillery pieces.

Lance Corporal Justin Cleaves, 26, having his photograph taken next to the
SA-2 missiles, said: "It was pretty crazy coming through all those people
throwing flowers. They were real happy to see us. "It looks as though the
(Iraqi) troops just dropped everything and ran," he said.

There were no Iraqi soldiers or police in sight. People in the crowds said
the troops had left on Tuesday.

Nearer Baghdad centre, people were everywhere, running across roads and down
narrow side streets carrying whatever they could lay their hands on.

Cars and trucks heaved and spluttered, piled high with furniture,
refrigerators, clothing, tyres ? all apparently looted from shops and
government offices.

"I'm happy to be here, but a little disappointed there weren't more soldiers
to fight...still, it's a good feeling knowing people are that afraid of us,"
said 32-year-old Sergeant Brian Dow. "I kinda felt like Madonna there,
having flowers thown at me."

Kuwaiti television, meanwhile, trumpeted the joy of Iraqis after the fall of
Baghdad to U.S. troops, with a presenter saying it is a "slap in the face"
to those Arabs who sided with Saddam Hussain.

Other Arab media were more subdued about the U.S. military success in Iraq.
Kuwait Television showed footage of an old Iraqi man using his shoe to hit a
poster of Saddam Hussain and screaming "This is freedom!"

The state channel's presenter voiced over the clip: "This is a slap in the
face to all those who believed Saddam Hussain could stay in power."

Kuwait has been heavily criticised in the Arab world in recent weeks for
being the only Arab country to openly back the U.S. invasion of Iraq and for
granting the United States use of its territory to launch the offensive.

"This is the day of great jubilation, the day of rebuilding Iraq," a member
of the London-based Iraqi opposition, Faek Sheik Ali, told Kuwaiti
television.

Ali applauded Kuwait's media for their coverage of the war, saying Iraqi
dissidents were baffled as to why other Arab channels had supported a
dictator against his people.

Few Arab television stations outside Kuwait have hosted Iraqis who opposed
the rule of Saddam Hussain.

On Wednesday, the popular Al-Jazeera satellite channel reported that
American tanks had taken up position in front of the Palestine Hotel, where
foreign journalists are based and where Iraqi Information Minister Mohamm-ed
Saeed Al Sahhaf gave a press conference Tuesday.

"The surreal scene this afternoon was unthinkable until yesterday. Nobody
could dream of it. If someone had told me this, I would have told him
'impossible'," said Al-Jazeera's reporter Maher Abdullah.

Abdullah said the U.S. troops were "friendly ... there is a kind of strange
harmony between the invading force, now occupying force, and the citizens
... An unusual and unexpected calm."

At one point, Abdullah referred to a Saddam monument as a statue of "the
former president."

Iraqi exiles living in London stormed the former Iraqi embassy in the
capital.government in Baghdad. The embassy has stood empty since Britain
ordered Iraq's last diplomat in London, who worked at a scaled-down mission
called an Interests Section under the umbrella of the Jordanian Embassy, to
leave the country last month.

"They had to force entry but it was a peaceful takeover," Zuhair Al Maher, a
member of the Iraqi opposition and one of the organisers, said. "There are
about 60 of us and our intention is to publicise our relief and jubilation
at the downfall of Saddam's regime.""

A spokeswoman for London police said they had made more than 20 arrests for
criminal damage but were still dealing with the incident in west London. "It
is still hard to take in but this is one of the happiest days in the history
of the Iraqi people," Al Maher said.


_________________________________________________________________
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-11 11:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to see
in the future?

In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa. We know what
happened for the next four hundred years.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-11 22:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to
see
in the future? In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa.
We know what happened for the next four hundred years. Tariq Siddiqui

Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'? Well if they went to the Arab
countries that they supposedly admire, they would not be given a right
to vote or even called citizens after spending a lifetime of
contribution. Instead of crying about how depraved these victims are
(and they are depraved!) how about doing something practical and working
physically for their cause instead of sitting in front of the computer
in the comforts of our study. I suggest taking our next vacation and
volunteer to serve the people in Iraq. Let's see some GoaNetters put
some of our money and efforts where our thoughts are. As they say- talk
is cheap or let's walk the talk. Regards GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-12 21:57:58 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org [mailto:goanet-admin at goanet.org] On Behalf
Of Tariq Siddiqui
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 2:43 PM

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

Tariq Siddiqui

Response: Don't be sad. Do something about it. I suggest you take your
next vacation and help the Iraqis.

I did not know that the opposition to this Iraq war was linked to the
Portuguese 450 years ago in India (which you referred to). Again a very
selective reading of history. If you want to talk history, the next time
we talk of Portuguese in Goa, let's talk about the Muslim rule in Goa
and the Muslim rule in Portugal and Spain a hundred years prior to that.
I wonder how many smiles and flowers from the natives greeted these
invading armies. GL.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-13 00:33:50 UTC
Permalink
The following was an excellent and informative news article.
The biggest injustice against Muslims today is undertaken by the Muslim
governments against their own kin. Of the more than 50 Muslim countries
in the world only three have true democratic governments - Turkey,
Bangladesh and Malaysia. Of the many Arab and Muslim friends that I
have, I notice they are very articulate and intelligent. But they appear
to be paralyzed in thought and action when it comes to facing their own.
It is unconscionable that the prior Afghanistan Government should have
destroyed the Buddhist statues of the sixth century BCE while the rest
of the Muslim (and Christian) world just stood-by.

There is absolutely no rationale for functioning monarchies in the 21t
century appointing their kin as Prime ministers. Similarly, there is no
rational basis for the Arab countries not to give citizenship to the
people who live, work and give their blood and life for the place. They
should at least give citizenship to other Arabs and Muslims. That should
be a first place to start fighting for justice for the Arabs. Regards GL


Muslim-Christian Unity need of the hour:


MUSLIMS and Christians have to jointly fight against
the injustices perpetrated against Palestinians and
Iraqis, noted Islamic scholar Sheikh Dr Yusuf
al-Qaradawi said. Dr Qaradawi was speaking to a
Catholic delegation from Vatican, who visited him
yesterday along with Public Health Minister HE Dr
Hajar Ahmed Hajar, at the Hamad Hospital, where he is recovering from a
surgery.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-13 04:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Tariq:
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful, may
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule of
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who are
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-15 00:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful,
may
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule
of
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who
are
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
I apologize if such renderings on my part have hurt your feelings. That
was not my intention. As I have maintained always, it does not bother me
a
bit what the nature of Portuguese rule was, and the consequences of this
rule. However, this does not mean that there cannot be any
discussion of Portuguese rule in Goa.

If I am misinformed on Portuguese rule in Goa, please feel free to
correct
me. Jorge Noronha is the only person on this forum who I notice, takes
the effort to impassionately try and correct some of the errors that
creep up during these discussions. This is how you serve and protect
your
heritage, not by issuing rejoinders on Muslim Sultans only because I am
a
Muslim.

Answer:
Tariq: I will be happy to dialogue with you, briefly or extensively, on
Portuguese and Muslim (we do not wan to be biased) rule in Goa.
Hopefully both of us can learn. With due respect to you and to the
GoaNetters, it is you who in unrelated conversation and subjects throws
a one-line reference on Portuguese rule in Goa. If you refer to your
recent messages on Goanet, there was reference of US invasion of Iraq
and linking it again in one-line to Portuguese rule in Goa. Unless of
course you think that Goans on the net have no idea of invasion or
colonialism outside the Portuguese context. So I would suggest that if
you are itching to revisit Portuguese rule in Goa let us do so as a
subject by itself, which it deserves, rather than a one-line derogatory
remark on 450 years of history. I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
George Pinto
2003-04-15 21:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Gilbert:

I am confused about your message above to Tariq. Are you saying Goan Catholics speak with one
voice regarding Portuguese rule? I have met some who speak favorably, others unfavorably, and
others who are neutral.

I am guess I am missing your point.

George

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com
Sidney Fernandes
2003-04-16 14:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
-----------
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself . I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
--
***************************************************
Sidney Fernandes sfernand at hsc.usf.edu
Database Administrator
University of South Florida
Health Sciences Center Information Systems

*****************************************************
"I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I know);
Their names are What and Why and When and How
and Where and Who."
----Rudyard Kipling
Tim de Mello
2003-04-16 14:59:29 UTC
Permalink
I agree totally with Sidney.

No one on this forum has the right to speak on our collective behalf.

Please refrain from using words like "we (Goan Catholics) . . ". Just speak
for yourself.

Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA
From: Sidney Fernandes <sfernand at hsc.usf.edu>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Gilbert & Tariq
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:07:23 -0400
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
-----------
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself . I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
--
***************************************************
Sidney Fernandes sfernand at hsc.usf.edu
Database Administrator
University of South Florida
Health Sciences Center Information Systems
*****************************************************
"I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I know);
Their names are What and Why and When and How
and Where and Who."
----Rudyard Kipling
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Carmo Dias
2003-04-10 16:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!

Smiles and flowers greet Marines
Reuters |Baghdad | 10-04-2003
?Gulf News

Hundreds of jubilant Iraqis mobbed a convoy of U.S. Marines yesterday,
cheering, dancing and waving as American troops swept towards central
Baghdad through slums and leafy suburbs from the east.

Crowds threw flowers at the Marines as they drove past the Martyrs'
Monument, just three km east of the central Jumhuriya Bridge over the Tigris
river.

Young and middle-aged men, many wearing soccer shirts of leading Western
clubs like Manchester United, shouted "Hello, hello" as Marines advanced
through the rundown sprawl of Saddam City and then more prosperous suburbs
with villas and trim lawns.

"No more Saddam Hussain," chanted one group, waving to troops as they
passed. "We love you, we love you."

One young man ran alongside a Marine armoured personnel carrier trying to
hand over a heavy belt of ammunition.

An older man made a wild kicking gesture with his foot, saying "Goodbye
Saddam".

Women waved from balconies, girls threw flower petals at young Marines
leaning across gun turrets. One woman held her baby aloft. Tank crews
picked the flowers from the tops of their fighting machines, smelt them and
grinned.

One man shouted to a soldier: "Is it over?".

"Almost," came the Marine's reply.

"To be honest, I'm happy it appears they're not going to fight. I was a
little nervous when the crowd was so exuberant, we've heard so much about
suicide bombings and drive-by shootings," said Captain Dan Rose.

"We are the lead regiment now. We are the furthest forward of anyone,"
Colonel John Toolan, commander of 1st Marine Regiment, told Reuters.

"I believe we are on the last leg."

At one point, the Marine convoy of over a dozen armoured vehicles halted,
spotting a blue flat-bed truck partly concealed behind a high brick wall.

Within seconds, U.S. heavy machineguns had taken it out causing a huge
explosion, sending up a fireball and scattering the crowds who ran for
cover.

Moments later, Marines came across four "ready to fire" SA-2 missiles
covered by tarpaulin by the roadside.

Earlier, U.S. tanks simply ran over any small arm weaponry they found and
destroyed abandoned heavy artillery pieces.

Lance Corporal Justin Cleaves, 26, having his photograph taken next to the
SA-2 missiles, said: "It was pretty crazy coming through all those people
throwing flowers. They were real happy to see us. "It looks as though the
(Iraqi) troops just dropped everything and ran," he said.

There were no Iraqi soldiers or police in sight. People in the crowds said
the troops had left on Tuesday.

Nearer Baghdad centre, people were everywhere, running across roads and down
narrow side streets carrying whatever they could lay their hands on.

Cars and trucks heaved and spluttered, piled high with furniture,
refrigerators, clothing, tyres ? all apparently looted from shops and
government offices.

"I'm happy to be here, but a little disappointed there weren't more soldiers
to fight...still, it's a good feeling knowing people are that afraid of us,"
said 32-year-old Sergeant Brian Dow. "I kinda felt like Madonna there,
having flowers thown at me."

Kuwaiti television, meanwhile, trumpeted the joy of Iraqis after the fall of
Baghdad to U.S. troops, with a presenter saying it is a "slap in the face"
to those Arabs who sided with Saddam Hussain.

Other Arab media were more subdued about the U.S. military success in Iraq.
Kuwait Television showed footage of an old Iraqi man using his shoe to hit a
poster of Saddam Hussain and screaming "This is freedom!"

The state channel's presenter voiced over the clip: "This is a slap in the
face to all those who believed Saddam Hussain could stay in power."

Kuwait has been heavily criticised in the Arab world in recent weeks for
being the only Arab country to openly back the U.S. invasion of Iraq and for
granting the United States use of its territory to launch the offensive.

"This is the day of great jubilation, the day of rebuilding Iraq," a member
of the London-based Iraqi opposition, Faek Sheik Ali, told Kuwaiti
television.

Ali applauded Kuwait's media for their coverage of the war, saying Iraqi
dissidents were baffled as to why other Arab channels had supported a
dictator against his people.

Few Arab television stations outside Kuwait have hosted Iraqis who opposed
the rule of Saddam Hussain.

On Wednesday, the popular Al-Jazeera satellite channel reported that
American tanks had taken up position in front of the Palestine Hotel, where
foreign journalists are based and where Iraqi Information Minister Mohamm-ed
Saeed Al Sahhaf gave a press conference Tuesday.

"The surreal scene this afternoon was unthinkable until yesterday. Nobody
could dream of it. If someone had told me this, I would have told him
'impossible'," said Al-Jazeera's reporter Maher Abdullah.

Abdullah said the U.S. troops were "friendly ... there is a kind of strange
harmony between the invading force, now occupying force, and the citizens
... An unusual and unexpected calm."

At one point, Abdullah referred to a Saddam monument as a statue of "the
former president."

Iraqi exiles living in London stormed the former Iraqi embassy in the
capital.government in Baghdad. The embassy has stood empty since Britain
ordered Iraq's last diplomat in London, who worked at a scaled-down mission
called an Interests Section under the umbrella of the Jordanian Embassy, to
leave the country last month.

"They had to force entry but it was a peaceful takeover," Zuhair Al Maher, a
member of the Iraqi opposition and one of the organisers, said. "There are
about 60 of us and our intention is to publicise our relief and jubilation
at the downfall of Saddam's regime.""

A spokeswoman for London police said they had made more than 20 arrests for
criminal damage but were still dealing with the incident in west London. "It
is still hard to take in but this is one of the happiest days in the history
of the Iraqi people," Al Maher said.


_________________________________________________________________
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-11 11:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to see
in the future?

In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa. We know what
happened for the next four hundred years.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-11 22:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to
see
in the future? In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa.
We know what happened for the next four hundred years. Tariq Siddiqui

Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'? Well if they went to the Arab
countries that they supposedly admire, they would not be given a right
to vote or even called citizens after spending a lifetime of
contribution. Instead of crying about how depraved these victims are
(and they are depraved!) how about doing something practical and working
physically for their cause instead of sitting in front of the computer
in the comforts of our study. I suggest taking our next vacation and
volunteer to serve the people in Iraq. Let's see some GoaNetters put
some of our money and efforts where our thoughts are. As they say- talk
is cheap or let's walk the talk. Regards GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-12 21:57:58 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org [mailto:goanet-admin at goanet.org] On Behalf
Of Tariq Siddiqui
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 2:43 PM

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

Tariq Siddiqui

Response: Don't be sad. Do something about it. I suggest you take your
next vacation and help the Iraqis.

I did not know that the opposition to this Iraq war was linked to the
Portuguese 450 years ago in India (which you referred to). Again a very
selective reading of history. If you want to talk history, the next time
we talk of Portuguese in Goa, let's talk about the Muslim rule in Goa
and the Muslim rule in Portugal and Spain a hundred years prior to that.
I wonder how many smiles and flowers from the natives greeted these
invading armies. GL.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-13 00:33:50 UTC
Permalink
The following was an excellent and informative news article.
The biggest injustice against Muslims today is undertaken by the Muslim
governments against their own kin. Of the more than 50 Muslim countries
in the world only three have true democratic governments - Turkey,
Bangladesh and Malaysia. Of the many Arab and Muslim friends that I
have, I notice they are very articulate and intelligent. But they appear
to be paralyzed in thought and action when it comes to facing their own.
It is unconscionable that the prior Afghanistan Government should have
destroyed the Buddhist statues of the sixth century BCE while the rest
of the Muslim (and Christian) world just stood-by.

There is absolutely no rationale for functioning monarchies in the 21t
century appointing their kin as Prime ministers. Similarly, there is no
rational basis for the Arab countries not to give citizenship to the
people who live, work and give their blood and life for the place. They
should at least give citizenship to other Arabs and Muslims. That should
be a first place to start fighting for justice for the Arabs. Regards GL


Muslim-Christian Unity need of the hour:


MUSLIMS and Christians have to jointly fight against
the injustices perpetrated against Palestinians and
Iraqis, noted Islamic scholar Sheikh Dr Yusuf
al-Qaradawi said. Dr Qaradawi was speaking to a
Catholic delegation from Vatican, who visited him
yesterday along with Public Health Minister HE Dr
Hajar Ahmed Hajar, at the Hamad Hospital, where he is recovering from a
surgery.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-13 04:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Tariq:
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful, may
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule of
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who are
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-15 00:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful,
may
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule
of
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who
are
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
I apologize if such renderings on my part have hurt your feelings. That
was not my intention. As I have maintained always, it does not bother me
a
bit what the nature of Portuguese rule was, and the consequences of this
rule. However, this does not mean that there cannot be any
discussion of Portuguese rule in Goa.

If I am misinformed on Portuguese rule in Goa, please feel free to
correct
me. Jorge Noronha is the only person on this forum who I notice, takes
the effort to impassionately try and correct some of the errors that
creep up during these discussions. This is how you serve and protect
your
heritage, not by issuing rejoinders on Muslim Sultans only because I am
a
Muslim.

Answer:
Tariq: I will be happy to dialogue with you, briefly or extensively, on
Portuguese and Muslim (we do not wan to be biased) rule in Goa.
Hopefully both of us can learn. With due respect to you and to the
GoaNetters, it is you who in unrelated conversation and subjects throws
a one-line reference on Portuguese rule in Goa. If you refer to your
recent messages on Goanet, there was reference of US invasion of Iraq
and linking it again in one-line to Portuguese rule in Goa. Unless of
course you think that Goans on the net have no idea of invasion or
colonialism outside the Portuguese context. So I would suggest that if
you are itching to revisit Portuguese rule in Goa let us do so as a
subject by itself, which it deserves, rather than a one-line derogatory
remark on 450 years of history. I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
George Pinto
2003-04-15 21:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Gilbert:

I am confused about your message above to Tariq. Are you saying Goan Catholics speak with one
voice regarding Portuguese rule? I have met some who speak favorably, others unfavorably, and
others who are neutral.

I am guess I am missing your point.

George

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com
Sidney Fernandes
2003-04-16 14:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
-----------
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself . I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
--
***************************************************
Sidney Fernandes sfernand at hsc.usf.edu
Database Administrator
University of South Florida
Health Sciences Center Information Systems

*****************************************************
"I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I know);
Their names are What and Why and When and How
and Where and Who."
----Rudyard Kipling
Tim de Mello
2003-04-16 14:59:29 UTC
Permalink
I agree totally with Sidney.

No one on this forum has the right to speak on our collective behalf.

Please refrain from using words like "we (Goan Catholics) . . ". Just speak
for yourself.

Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA
From: Sidney Fernandes <sfernand at hsc.usf.edu>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Gilbert & Tariq
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:07:23 -0400
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
-----------
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself . I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
--
***************************************************
Sidney Fernandes sfernand at hsc.usf.edu
Database Administrator
University of South Florida
Health Sciences Center Information Systems
*****************************************************
"I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I know);
Their names are What and Why and When and How
and Where and Who."
----Rudyard Kipling
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Carmo Dias
2003-04-10 16:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!

Smiles and flowers greet Marines
Reuters |Baghdad | 10-04-2003
?Gulf News

Hundreds of jubilant Iraqis mobbed a convoy of U.S. Marines yesterday,
cheering, dancing and waving as American troops swept towards central
Baghdad through slums and leafy suburbs from the east.

Crowds threw flowers at the Marines as they drove past the Martyrs'
Monument, just three km east of the central Jumhuriya Bridge over the Tigris
river.

Young and middle-aged men, many wearing soccer shirts of leading Western
clubs like Manchester United, shouted "Hello, hello" as Marines advanced
through the rundown sprawl of Saddam City and then more prosperous suburbs
with villas and trim lawns.

"No more Saddam Hussain," chanted one group, waving to troops as they
passed. "We love you, we love you."

One young man ran alongside a Marine armoured personnel carrier trying to
hand over a heavy belt of ammunition.

An older man made a wild kicking gesture with his foot, saying "Goodbye
Saddam".

Women waved from balconies, girls threw flower petals at young Marines
leaning across gun turrets. One woman held her baby aloft. Tank crews
picked the flowers from the tops of their fighting machines, smelt them and
grinned.

One man shouted to a soldier: "Is it over?".

"Almost," came the Marine's reply.

"To be honest, I'm happy it appears they're not going to fight. I was a
little nervous when the crowd was so exuberant, we've heard so much about
suicide bombings and drive-by shootings," said Captain Dan Rose.

"We are the lead regiment now. We are the furthest forward of anyone,"
Colonel John Toolan, commander of 1st Marine Regiment, told Reuters.

"I believe we are on the last leg."

At one point, the Marine convoy of over a dozen armoured vehicles halted,
spotting a blue flat-bed truck partly concealed behind a high brick wall.

Within seconds, U.S. heavy machineguns had taken it out causing a huge
explosion, sending up a fireball and scattering the crowds who ran for
cover.

Moments later, Marines came across four "ready to fire" SA-2 missiles
covered by tarpaulin by the roadside.

Earlier, U.S. tanks simply ran over any small arm weaponry they found and
destroyed abandoned heavy artillery pieces.

Lance Corporal Justin Cleaves, 26, having his photograph taken next to the
SA-2 missiles, said: "It was pretty crazy coming through all those people
throwing flowers. They were real happy to see us. "It looks as though the
(Iraqi) troops just dropped everything and ran," he said.

There were no Iraqi soldiers or police in sight. People in the crowds said
the troops had left on Tuesday.

Nearer Baghdad centre, people were everywhere, running across roads and down
narrow side streets carrying whatever they could lay their hands on.

Cars and trucks heaved and spluttered, piled high with furniture,
refrigerators, clothing, tyres ? all apparently looted from shops and
government offices.

"I'm happy to be here, but a little disappointed there weren't more soldiers
to fight...still, it's a good feeling knowing people are that afraid of us,"
said 32-year-old Sergeant Brian Dow. "I kinda felt like Madonna there,
having flowers thown at me."

Kuwaiti television, meanwhile, trumpeted the joy of Iraqis after the fall of
Baghdad to U.S. troops, with a presenter saying it is a "slap in the face"
to those Arabs who sided with Saddam Hussain.

Other Arab media were more subdued about the U.S. military success in Iraq.
Kuwait Television showed footage of an old Iraqi man using his shoe to hit a
poster of Saddam Hussain and screaming "This is freedom!"

The state channel's presenter voiced over the clip: "This is a slap in the
face to all those who believed Saddam Hussain could stay in power."

Kuwait has been heavily criticised in the Arab world in recent weeks for
being the only Arab country to openly back the U.S. invasion of Iraq and for
granting the United States use of its territory to launch the offensive.

"This is the day of great jubilation, the day of rebuilding Iraq," a member
of the London-based Iraqi opposition, Faek Sheik Ali, told Kuwaiti
television.

Ali applauded Kuwait's media for their coverage of the war, saying Iraqi
dissidents were baffled as to why other Arab channels had supported a
dictator against his people.

Few Arab television stations outside Kuwait have hosted Iraqis who opposed
the rule of Saddam Hussain.

On Wednesday, the popular Al-Jazeera satellite channel reported that
American tanks had taken up position in front of the Palestine Hotel, where
foreign journalists are based and where Iraqi Information Minister Mohamm-ed
Saeed Al Sahhaf gave a press conference Tuesday.

"The surreal scene this afternoon was unthinkable until yesterday. Nobody
could dream of it. If someone had told me this, I would have told him
'impossible'," said Al-Jazeera's reporter Maher Abdullah.

Abdullah said the U.S. troops were "friendly ... there is a kind of strange
harmony between the invading force, now occupying force, and the citizens
... An unusual and unexpected calm."

At one point, Abdullah referred to a Saddam monument as a statue of "the
former president."

Iraqi exiles living in London stormed the former Iraqi embassy in the
capital.government in Baghdad. The embassy has stood empty since Britain
ordered Iraq's last diplomat in London, who worked at a scaled-down mission
called an Interests Section under the umbrella of the Jordanian Embassy, to
leave the country last month.

"They had to force entry but it was a peaceful takeover," Zuhair Al Maher, a
member of the Iraqi opposition and one of the organisers, said. "There are
about 60 of us and our intention is to publicise our relief and jubilation
at the downfall of Saddam's regime.""

A spokeswoman for London police said they had made more than 20 arrests for
criminal damage but were still dealing with the incident in west London. "It
is still hard to take in but this is one of the happiest days in the history
of the Iraqi people," Al Maher said.


_________________________________________________________________
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-11 11:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to see
in the future?

In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa. We know what
happened for the next four hundred years.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-11 22:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to
see
in the future? In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa.
We know what happened for the next four hundred years. Tariq Siddiqui

Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'? Well if they went to the Arab
countries that they supposedly admire, they would not be given a right
to vote or even called citizens after spending a lifetime of
contribution. Instead of crying about how depraved these victims are
(and they are depraved!) how about doing something practical and working
physically for their cause instead of sitting in front of the computer
in the comforts of our study. I suggest taking our next vacation and
volunteer to serve the people in Iraq. Let's see some GoaNetters put
some of our money and efforts where our thoughts are. As they say- talk
is cheap or let's walk the talk. Regards GL
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-12 21:57:58 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
From: goanet-admin at goanet.org [mailto:goanet-admin at goanet.org] On Behalf
Of Tariq Siddiqui
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 2:43 PM

And this really saddens me. It seems that in their zeal to thump their
chests, after all this exchange, they still have not given a moment of
thought to what the opposition of this war really is saying.

Tariq Siddiqui

Response: Don't be sad. Do something about it. I suggest you take your
next vacation and help the Iraqis.

I did not know that the opposition to this Iraq war was linked to the
Portuguese 450 years ago in India (which you referred to). Again a very
selective reading of history. If you want to talk history, the next time
we talk of Portuguese in Goa, let's talk about the Muslim rule in Goa
and the Muslim rule in Portugal and Spain a hundred years prior to that.
I wonder how many smiles and flowers from the natives greeted these
invading armies. GL.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-13 00:33:50 UTC
Permalink
The following was an excellent and informative news article.
The biggest injustice against Muslims today is undertaken by the Muslim
governments against their own kin. Of the more than 50 Muslim countries
in the world only three have true democratic governments - Turkey,
Bangladesh and Malaysia. Of the many Arab and Muslim friends that I
have, I notice they are very articulate and intelligent. But they appear
to be paralyzed in thought and action when it comes to facing their own.
It is unconscionable that the prior Afghanistan Government should have
destroyed the Buddhist statues of the sixth century BCE while the rest
of the Muslim (and Christian) world just stood-by.

There is absolutely no rationale for functioning monarchies in the 21t
century appointing their kin as Prime ministers. Similarly, there is no
rational basis for the Arab countries not to give citizenship to the
people who live, work and give their blood and life for the place. They
should at least give citizenship to other Arabs and Muslims. That should
be a first place to start fighting for justice for the Arabs. Regards GL


Muslim-Christian Unity need of the hour:


MUSLIMS and Christians have to jointly fight against
the injustices perpetrated against Palestinians and
Iraqis, noted Islamic scholar Sheikh Dr Yusuf
al-Qaradawi said. Dr Qaradawi was speaking to a
Catholic delegation from Vatican, who visited him
yesterday along with Public Health Minister HE Dr
Hajar Ahmed Hajar, at the Hamad Hospital, where he is recovering from a
surgery.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-13 04:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Tariq:
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful, may
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule of
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who are
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-15 00:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I do not think we are talking to each other. However to be helpful,
may
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I point out that your repeated negative references to Portuguese rule
of
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Goa reflects a lack of sensitivity on your part (as an intellectual
Goan) to the heritage of Goa and especially the Goans Catholics who
are
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
proud our their Portuguese/ Goan culture. Is that too difficult to
understand? Regards GL.
I apologize if such renderings on my part have hurt your feelings. That
was not my intention. As I have maintained always, it does not bother me
a
bit what the nature of Portuguese rule was, and the consequences of this
rule. However, this does not mean that there cannot be any
discussion of Portuguese rule in Goa.

If I am misinformed on Portuguese rule in Goa, please feel free to
correct
me. Jorge Noronha is the only person on this forum who I notice, takes
the effort to impassionately try and correct some of the errors that
creep up during these discussions. This is how you serve and protect
your
heritage, not by issuing rejoinders on Muslim Sultans only because I am
a
Muslim.

Answer:
Tariq: I will be happy to dialogue with you, briefly or extensively, on
Portuguese and Muslim (we do not wan to be biased) rule in Goa.
Hopefully both of us can learn. With due respect to you and to the
GoaNetters, it is you who in unrelated conversation and subjects throws
a one-line reference on Portuguese rule in Goa. If you refer to your
recent messages on Goanet, there was reference of US invasion of Iraq
and linking it again in one-line to Portuguese rule in Goa. Unless of
course you think that Goans on the net have no idea of invasion or
colonialism outside the Portuguese context. So I would suggest that if
you are itching to revisit Portuguese rule in Goa let us do so as a
subject by itself, which it deserves, rather than a one-line derogatory
remark on 450 years of history. I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
George Pinto
2003-04-15 21:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
Gilbert:

I am confused about your message above to Tariq. Are you saying Goan Catholics speak with one
voice regarding Portuguese rule? I have met some who speak favorably, others unfavorably, and
others who are neutral.

I am guess I am missing your point.

George

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
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Sidney Fernandes
2003-04-16 14:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
-----------
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself . I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
--
***************************************************
Sidney Fernandes sfernand at hsc.usf.edu
Database Administrator
University of South Florida
Health Sciences Center Information Systems

*****************************************************
"I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I know);
Their names are What and Why and When and How
and Where and Who."
----Rudyard Kipling
Tim de Mello
2003-04-16 14:59:29 UTC
Permalink
I agree totally with Sidney.

No one on this forum has the right to speak on our collective behalf.

Please refrain from using words like "we (Goan Catholics) . . ". Just speak
for yourself.

Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA
From: Sidney Fernandes <sfernand at hsc.usf.edu>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] RE: Gilbert & Tariq
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:07:23 -0400
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
I like to give you a rejoinder on Muslim
Sultans because you are a Muslim and to make you feel the same way that
we (Goan Catholics) feel about your comeback on Portuguese rule. It is
not very comfortable - is it?
-----------
Gilbert ,
I would like to say as a Goan Catholic born after 1961 I feel very
Indian myself . I do not feel slighted when a reference is made to
Portuguese as colonizers and have no feelings for Portugal other then
the fact that I love their soccer team :) ... So I would take exception
to you speaking for Goan Catholics .. coz you certainly don't speak for
me ..
Sidney
--
***************************************************
Sidney Fernandes sfernand at hsc.usf.edu
Database Administrator
University of South Florida
Health Sciences Center Information Systems
*****************************************************
"I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I know);
Their names are What and Why and When and How
and Where and Who."
----Rudyard Kipling
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
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Carmo Dias
2003-04-10 16:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!

Smiles and flowers greet Marines
Reuters |Baghdad | 10-04-2003
?Gulf News

Hundreds of jubilant Iraqis mobbed a convoy of U.S. Marines yesterday,
cheering, dancing and waving as American troops swept towards central
Baghdad through slums and leafy suburbs from the east.

Crowds threw flowers at the Marines as they drove past the Martyrs'
Monument, just three km east of the central Jumhuriya Bridge over the Tigris
river.

Young and middle-aged men, many wearing soccer shirts of leading Western
clubs like Manchester United, shouted "Hello, hello" as Marines advanced
through the rundown sprawl of Saddam City and then more prosperous suburbs
with villas and trim lawns.

"No more Saddam Hussain," chanted one group, waving to troops as they
passed. "We love you, we love you."

One young man ran alongside a Marine armoured personnel carrier trying to
hand over a heavy belt of ammunition.

An older man made a wild kicking gesture with his foot, saying "Goodbye
Saddam".

Women waved from balconies, girls threw flower petals at young Marines
leaning across gun turrets. One woman held her baby aloft. Tank crews
picked the flowers from the tops of their fighting machines, smelt them and
grinned.

One man shouted to a soldier: "Is it over?".

"Almost," came the Marine's reply.

"To be honest, I'm happy it appears they're not going to fight. I was a
little nervous when the crowd was so exuberant, we've heard so much about
suicide bombings and drive-by shootings," said Captain Dan Rose.

"We are the lead regiment now. We are the furthest forward of anyone,"
Colonel John Toolan, commander of 1st Marine Regiment, told Reuters.

"I believe we are on the last leg."

At one point, the Marine convoy of over a dozen armoured vehicles halted,
spotting a blue flat-bed truck partly concealed behind a high brick wall.

Within seconds, U.S. heavy machineguns had taken it out causing a huge
explosion, sending up a fireball and scattering the crowds who ran for
cover.

Moments later, Marines came across four "ready to fire" SA-2 missiles
covered by tarpaulin by the roadside.

Earlier, U.S. tanks simply ran over any small arm weaponry they found and
destroyed abandoned heavy artillery pieces.

Lance Corporal Justin Cleaves, 26, having his photograph taken next to the
SA-2 missiles, said: "It was pretty crazy coming through all those people
throwing flowers. They were real happy to see us. "It looks as though the
(Iraqi) troops just dropped everything and ran," he said.

There were no Iraqi soldiers or police in sight. People in the crowds said
the troops had left on Tuesday.

Nearer Baghdad centre, people were everywhere, running across roads and down
narrow side streets carrying whatever they could lay their hands on.

Cars and trucks heaved and spluttered, piled high with furniture,
refrigerators, clothing, tyres ? all apparently looted from shops and
government offices.

"I'm happy to be here, but a little disappointed there weren't more soldiers
to fight...still, it's a good feeling knowing people are that afraid of us,"
said 32-year-old Sergeant Brian Dow. "I kinda felt like Madonna there,
having flowers thown at me."

Kuwaiti television, meanwhile, trumpeted the joy of Iraqis after the fall of
Baghdad to U.S. troops, with a presenter saying it is a "slap in the face"
to those Arabs who sided with Saddam Hussain.

Other Arab media were more subdued about the U.S. military success in Iraq.
Kuwait Television showed footage of an old Iraqi man using his shoe to hit a
poster of Saddam Hussain and screaming "This is freedom!"

The state channel's presenter voiced over the clip: "This is a slap in the
face to all those who believed Saddam Hussain could stay in power."

Kuwait has been heavily criticised in the Arab world in recent weeks for
being the only Arab country to openly back the U.S. invasion of Iraq and for
granting the United States use of its territory to launch the offensive.

"This is the day of great jubilation, the day of rebuilding Iraq," a member
of the London-based Iraqi opposition, Faek Sheik Ali, told Kuwaiti
television.

Ali applauded Kuwait's media for their coverage of the war, saying Iraqi
dissidents were baffled as to why other Arab channels had supported a
dictator against his people.

Few Arab television stations outside Kuwait have hosted Iraqis who opposed
the rule of Saddam Hussain.

On Wednesday, the popular Al-Jazeera satellite channel reported that
American tanks had taken up position in front of the Palestine Hotel, where
foreign journalists are based and where Iraqi Information Minister Mohamm-ed
Saeed Al Sahhaf gave a press conference Tuesday.

"The surreal scene this afternoon was unthinkable until yesterday. Nobody
could dream of it. If someone had told me this, I would have told him
'impossible'," said Al-Jazeera's reporter Maher Abdullah.

Abdullah said the U.S. troops were "friendly ... there is a kind of strange
harmony between the invading force, now occupying force, and the citizens
... An unusual and unexpected calm."

At one point, Abdullah referred to a Saddam monument as a statue of "the
former president."

Iraqi exiles living in London stormed the former Iraqi embassy in the
capital.government in Baghdad. The embassy has stood empty since Britain
ordered Iraq's last diplomat in London, who worked at a scaled-down mission
called an Interests Section under the umbrella of the Jordanian Embassy, to
leave the country last month.

"They had to force entry but it was a peaceful takeover," Zuhair Al Maher, a
member of the Iraqi opposition and one of the organisers, said. "There are
about 60 of us and our intention is to publicise our relief and jubilation
at the downfall of Saddam's regime.""

A spokeswoman for London police said they had made more than 20 arrests for
criminal damage but were still dealing with the incident in west London. "It
is still hard to take in but this is one of the happiest days in the history
of the Iraqi people," Al Maher said.


_________________________________________________________________
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-11 11:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to see
in the future?

In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa. We know what
happened for the next four hundred years.

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Gilbert Lawrence
2003-04-11 22:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carmo Dias
Look at this the Iraqis really hate the Americans & Britts. NOT!
Do you blame the oppressed for relishing the immediate and failing to
see
in the future? In 1510, I am sure the Portuguese were welcomed in Goa.
We know what happened for the next four hundred years. Tariq Siddiqui

Response: If these modern day oppressors (Mericans and Brits) are so
bad, how come so many GoaNetters (the most vocal ones) voluntarily,
including the writer of the above comment, live and make a comfortable
living in these 'terrible countries'? Well if they went to the Arab
countries that they supposedly admire, they would not be given a right
to vote or even called citizens after spending a lifetime of
contribution. Instead of crying about how depraved these victims are
(and they are depraved!) how about doing something practical and working
physically for their cause instead of sitting in front of the computer
in the comforts of our study. I suggest taking our next vacation and
volunteer to serve the people in Iraq. Let's see some GoaNetters put
some of our money and efforts where our thoughts are. As they say- talk
is cheap or let's walk the talk. Regards GL
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