Discussion:
Plagiarism and Goa
(too old to reply)
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-30 13:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Have you noticed how you and I are the only ones
obsessed with topics of city renewal, infrastructural
investment, etc. The rest of the GOAN forum seems
preoccupied with plagiarism.
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!".

The infrastructural investment I have seen you most pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please get of your high
horse.

Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-30 23:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!"....
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.
Sunith, The "Go Frederick, Go!" was just meant to score a small point
in our complex world of cyberpolitics, and I can assure you it wasn't
targeted at you. Don't take it too seriously. Selma has, of course,
unintentionally, managed to flatter my ego, and I'm back in her fan
club :-) But that wholly another issue....

Now for the facts, as I see them:

* You'll guys have hijacked this issue and turned it into one solely
focussed on academic plagarism. (In the bargain we have also used the
occasion to score points against and pilloried Dr Gilbert Lawrence,
for a book on Goa which he wrote, and which has nothing to do
whatsoever with his reputation as a medical professional.)

* Please try and recall how this issue started, as a debate over
copying -- without acknowledging -- content on the web. Simply, the
reason for my taking up this debate is my belief is that there are
other, better, more-sophisticated ways of dealing with such issues
rather than the 'cease-and-desist' approach. The best is to make sure
that we don't mimick models meant for the big players and
profit-at-all-cost corporates, but rather make our own work in
cyberspace more easily sharable.

(It is a telling statement that after 13 years in cyberspace, I've
never once had the problem of having my work copied in a way that made
me feel cheated. Either my work is of so poor quality that it's not
worth copying, or my terms for copying it are such that people don't
need to violate them. Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took some time to send him
a CD of the pictures ... And he was kind enough to send me a copy or
two of the souvenir where these were published. Did I lose anything?
No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've gained a 100 times more by
making my content sharable in cyberspace.)

* My concern is that you guys -- who plagarise arguments from the
corporate copyright world, without even crediting where they come from
-- are distorting the possibilities of building sharable knowledge
unencumbered by the excessive deadweight of copyright which is today
blocking access-to-knowledge more than anything else.

(Oh yeah, none of my arguments are original... they're copied too. But
then, I take them from the free-to-share copyleft world, and don't
roam around with illusions like you guys that we are always creating
"original" knowlege and information, but I believe we are standing on
the shoulders of giants who worked to create knowledge before us and
were more helpful while sharing it, and we're fooling ourselves into
believing how tall "we" stand!)

[Also keep in mind the dubious origins of the copyright law, including
the Statue of Anne of 1710 and its predecessor: "The Statute replaced
the monopoly enjoyed by the Stationer's Company granted in 1556 during
the reign of Mary I which, after several renewals, expired in 1695.
Under this regime, company members would buy manuscripts from authors
but once purchased, would have a perpetual monopoly on the printing of
the work. Authors themselves were excluded from membership in the
company and could not therefore legally self-publish, nor were they
given royalties for books that sold well."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_Kingdom]

Lastly, if we think the world rotates mere because of the wisdom of
academia (or even the outpourings of the media!) then we are living in
at best an ivory tower, or at worst, a fool's paradise. This debate is
far beyond academia.

To me this approach makes more sense: "Share, reuse, and remix ? legally.
Creative Commons provides free tools that let authors, scientists,
artists, and educators easily mark their creative work with the
freedoms they want it to carry. You can use CC to change your
copyright terms from "All Rights Reserved" to "Some Rights Reserved.""

And I would appeal to more authors to consider putting out their work
under such a license. Our Britto's book and BMX alumni book were both
put out under such licenses, and they have done very well for
themselves (not in terms of raking in money, but in being widely read,
which was their original purpose!) --FN

PS: Do you'll guys think you can even attempt to build a Konkani
wikipedia with a zero budget and based on copyrighted information? See
below...
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-31 03:58:15 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.

Cheers,

Santosh
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-31 16:55:56 UTC
Permalink
I accept that. The point I was making was that there are better ways
of putting out information on the Net, ensuring you get something out
of sharing the same, and that the copyright model is not the best nor
the only option available. Santosh's response only underlines my
point. FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-31 16:55:56 UTC
Permalink
I accept that. The point I was making was that there are better ways
of putting out information on the Net, ensuring you get something out
of sharing the same, and that the copyright model is not the best nor
the only option available. Santosh's response only underlines my
point. FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-31 16:55:56 UTC
Permalink
I accept that. The point I was making was that there are better ways
of putting out information on the Net, ensuring you get something out
of sharing the same, and that the copyright model is not the best nor
the only option available. Santosh's response only underlines my
point. FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-31 16:55:56 UTC
Permalink
I accept that. The point I was making was that there are better ways
of putting out information on the Net, ensuring you get something out
of sharing the same, and that the copyright model is not the best nor
the only option available. Santosh's response only underlines my
point. FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-31 16:55:56 UTC
Permalink
I accept that. The point I was making was that there are better ways
of putting out information on the Net, ensuring you get something out
of sharing the same, and that the copyright model is not the best nor
the only option available. Santosh's response only underlines my
point. FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-31 16:55:56 UTC
Permalink
I accept that. The point I was making was that there are better ways
of putting out information on the Net, ensuring you get something out
of sharing the same, and that the copyright model is not the best nor
the only option available. Santosh's response only underlines my
point. FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-31 16:55:56 UTC
Permalink
I accept that. The point I was making was that there are better ways
of putting out information on the Net, ensuring you get something out
of sharing the same, and that the copyright model is not the best nor
the only option available. Santosh's response only underlines my
point. FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Carvalho
2007-03-31 05:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this
debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go
Frederick, Go!".
My response:
No I wasn't in the "thick of this debate". If you
don't know which English expressions to use, then
maybe that Goan education system, you so virulently
defend didn't do its job after all. I was cheering
Frederick on because he has increased the scope of
this debate. It's easy to say plagiarism is
reprehensible, it is, but what is plagiarism today
needs to be adequately defined and he has done just
that. Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't
taken personal potshots at anyone on the forum in
order to do so. I find that far more offensive than
plagiarism.
Post by Sunith D Velho
The infrastructural investment I have seen you most
pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please
get of your high
horse.
My response:
Atleast the horses I ride are real ones. When you
finally get off you pony and start wearing long-pants,
we'll talk. Adult to adult.
Post by Sunith D Velho
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over
especially in Goa and
India,
My response:
Really Sunith? Then why is it that this is the first
time Goa has been mentioned in this debate? I'm sure I
could start a topic on the breeding habits of
armadillos and I'm sure I could make that too relevant
to Goa.

Selma





____________________________________________________________________________________
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Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 04:08:42 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Santosh's response only underlines my point. FN
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.

Cheers,

Santosh
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-04-01 08:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Attribution + copyleft = access to knowledge (a2k)
Atribution + copyright = still violation of the law

Attribution and copyright violations are not necessarily linked. We
are confusing issues here. The two do not necessarily go together.
Arguing that you have adquately attributed a source will not always
absolve you of the charge of "copyright violation".

Attribution is a form of showing courtesy. (We cannot attribute the
source of all the ideas we come by, in any case. Do the promoters of
copyright attribute any of their arguments to their source? They have
consistently ignored this question.)

I think Basilio's argument is very different from what you guys are saying.

Jose and Bosco aren't in full agreement with you either.Cecil is
taking on the major job of targeting Gilbert Lawrence (he hasn't yet
explained his views on 'piracy', 'copyright' or whether he would
download illegally copied CDs, as I occasionally do ... or circulate
for a not-for-profit purpose a copyrighted and published-earlier
article from another newspaper or publcation as I am doing all the
time and thus violating somebody's copyright, even if doing it in a
way where they might not exactly mind).

George is making a parallel point, but with an ambivalent dose of
humour. I wonder what he thinks of copyright-unencumbered ways oa
creating and sharing knowledge.

AFAIK, only Sunith Velho is echoing your point of view, which looks at
an academia-above-all perspective. --FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
Santosh
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-04-01 08:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Attribution + copyleft = access to knowledge (a2k)
Atribution + copyright = still violation of the law

Attribution and copyright violations are not necessarily linked. We
are confusing issues here. The two do not necessarily go together.
Arguing that you have adquately attributed a source will not always
absolve you of the charge of "copyright violation".

Attribution is a form of showing courtesy. (We cannot attribute the
source of all the ideas we come by, in any case. Do the promoters of
copyright attribute any of their arguments to their source? They have
consistently ignored this question.)

I think Basilio's argument is very different from what you guys are saying.

Jose and Bosco aren't in full agreement with you either.Cecil is
taking on the major job of targeting Gilbert Lawrence (he hasn't yet
explained his views on 'piracy', 'copyright' or whether he would
download illegally copied CDs, as I occasionally do ... or circulate
for a not-for-profit purpose a copyrighted and published-earlier
article from another newspaper or publcation as I am doing all the
time and thus violating somebody's copyright, even if doing it in a
way where they might not exactly mind).

George is making a parallel point, but with an ambivalent dose of
humour. I wonder what he thinks of copyright-unencumbered ways oa
creating and sharing knowledge.

AFAIK, only Sunith Velho is echoing your point of view, which looks at
an academia-above-all perspective. --FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
Santosh
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-04-01 08:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Attribution + copyleft = access to knowledge (a2k)
Atribution + copyright = still violation of the law

Attribution and copyright violations are not necessarily linked. We
are confusing issues here. The two do not necessarily go together.
Arguing that you have adquately attributed a source will not always
absolve you of the charge of "copyright violation".

Attribution is a form of showing courtesy. (We cannot attribute the
source of all the ideas we come by, in any case. Do the promoters of
copyright attribute any of their arguments to their source? They have
consistently ignored this question.)

I think Basilio's argument is very different from what you guys are saying.

Jose and Bosco aren't in full agreement with you either.Cecil is
taking on the major job of targeting Gilbert Lawrence (he hasn't yet
explained his views on 'piracy', 'copyright' or whether he would
download illegally copied CDs, as I occasionally do ... or circulate
for a not-for-profit purpose a copyrighted and published-earlier
article from another newspaper or publcation as I am doing all the
time and thus violating somebody's copyright, even if doing it in a
way where they might not exactly mind).

George is making a parallel point, but with an ambivalent dose of
humour. I wonder what he thinks of copyright-unencumbered ways oa
creating and sharing knowledge.

AFAIK, only Sunith Velho is echoing your point of view, which looks at
an academia-above-all perspective. --FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
Santosh
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-04-01 08:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Attribution + copyleft = access to knowledge (a2k)
Atribution + copyright = still violation of the law

Attribution and copyright violations are not necessarily linked. We
are confusing issues here. The two do not necessarily go together.
Arguing that you have adquately attributed a source will not always
absolve you of the charge of "copyright violation".

Attribution is a form of showing courtesy. (We cannot attribute the
source of all the ideas we come by, in any case. Do the promoters of
copyright attribute any of their arguments to their source? They have
consistently ignored this question.)

I think Basilio's argument is very different from what you guys are saying.

Jose and Bosco aren't in full agreement with you either.Cecil is
taking on the major job of targeting Gilbert Lawrence (he hasn't yet
explained his views on 'piracy', 'copyright' or whether he would
download illegally copied CDs, as I occasionally do ... or circulate
for a not-for-profit purpose a copyrighted and published-earlier
article from another newspaper or publcation as I am doing all the
time and thus violating somebody's copyright, even if doing it in a
way where they might not exactly mind).

George is making a parallel point, but with an ambivalent dose of
humour. I wonder what he thinks of copyright-unencumbered ways oa
creating and sharing knowledge.

AFAIK, only Sunith Velho is echoing your point of view, which looks at
an academia-above-all perspective. --FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
Santosh
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-04-01 08:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Attribution + copyleft = access to knowledge (a2k)
Atribution + copyright = still violation of the law

Attribution and copyright violations are not necessarily linked. We
are confusing issues here. The two do not necessarily go together.
Arguing that you have adquately attributed a source will not always
absolve you of the charge of "copyright violation".

Attribution is a form of showing courtesy. (We cannot attribute the
source of all the ideas we come by, in any case. Do the promoters of
copyright attribute any of their arguments to their source? They have
consistently ignored this question.)

I think Basilio's argument is very different from what you guys are saying.

Jose and Bosco aren't in full agreement with you either.Cecil is
taking on the major job of targeting Gilbert Lawrence (he hasn't yet
explained his views on 'piracy', 'copyright' or whether he would
download illegally copied CDs, as I occasionally do ... or circulate
for a not-for-profit purpose a copyrighted and published-earlier
article from another newspaper or publcation as I am doing all the
time and thus violating somebody's copyright, even if doing it in a
way where they might not exactly mind).

George is making a parallel point, but with an ambivalent dose of
humour. I wonder what he thinks of copyright-unencumbered ways oa
creating and sharing knowledge.

AFAIK, only Sunith Velho is echoing your point of view, which looks at
an academia-above-all perspective. --FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
Santosh
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-04-01 08:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Attribution + copyleft = access to knowledge (a2k)
Atribution + copyright = still violation of the law

Attribution and copyright violations are not necessarily linked. We
are confusing issues here. The two do not necessarily go together.
Arguing that you have adquately attributed a source will not always
absolve you of the charge of "copyright violation".

Attribution is a form of showing courtesy. (We cannot attribute the
source of all the ideas we come by, in any case. Do the promoters of
copyright attribute any of their arguments to their source? They have
consistently ignored this question.)

I think Basilio's argument is very different from what you guys are saying.

Jose and Bosco aren't in full agreement with you either.Cecil is
taking on the major job of targeting Gilbert Lawrence (he hasn't yet
explained his views on 'piracy', 'copyright' or whether he would
download illegally copied CDs, as I occasionally do ... or circulate
for a not-for-profit purpose a copyrighted and published-earlier
article from another newspaper or publcation as I am doing all the
time and thus violating somebody's copyright, even if doing it in a
way where they might not exactly mind).

George is making a parallel point, but with an ambivalent dose of
humour. I wonder what he thinks of copyright-unencumbered ways oa
creating and sharing knowledge.

AFAIK, only Sunith Velho is echoing your point of view, which looks at
an academia-above-all perspective. --FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
Santosh
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-04-01 08:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Attribution + copyleft = access to knowledge (a2k)
Atribution + copyright = still violation of the law

Attribution and copyright violations are not necessarily linked. We
are confusing issues here. The two do not necessarily go together.
Arguing that you have adquately attributed a source will not always
absolve you of the charge of "copyright violation".

Attribution is a form of showing courtesy. (We cannot attribute the
source of all the ideas we come by, in any case. Do the promoters of
copyright attribute any of their arguments to their source? They have
consistently ignored this question.)

I think Basilio's argument is very different from what you guys are saying.

Jose and Bosco aren't in full agreement with you either.Cecil is
taking on the major job of targeting Gilbert Lawrence (he hasn't yet
explained his views on 'piracy', 'copyright' or whether he would
download illegally copied CDs, as I occasionally do ... or circulate
for a not-for-profit purpose a copyrighted and published-earlier
article from another newspaper or publcation as I am doing all the
time and thus violating somebody's copyright, even if doing it in a
way where they might not exactly mind).

George is making a parallel point, but with an ambivalent dose of
humour. I wonder what he thinks of copyright-unencumbered ways oa
creating and sharing knowledge.

AFAIK, only Sunith Velho is echoing your point of view, which looks at
an academia-above-all perspective. --FN
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
Santosh
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-30 13:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Have you noticed how you and I are the only ones
obsessed with topics of city renewal, infrastructural
investment, etc. The rest of the GOAN forum seems
preoccupied with plagiarism.
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!".

The infrastructural investment I have seen you most pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please get of your high
horse.

Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-30 23:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!"....
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.
Sunith, The "Go Frederick, Go!" was just meant to score a small point
in our complex world of cyberpolitics, and I can assure you it wasn't
targeted at you. Don't take it too seriously. Selma has, of course,
unintentionally, managed to flatter my ego, and I'm back in her fan
club :-) But that wholly another issue....

Now for the facts, as I see them:

* You'll guys have hijacked this issue and turned it into one solely
focussed on academic plagarism. (In the bargain we have also used the
occasion to score points against and pilloried Dr Gilbert Lawrence,
for a book on Goa which he wrote, and which has nothing to do
whatsoever with his reputation as a medical professional.)

* Please try and recall how this issue started, as a debate over
copying -- without acknowledging -- content on the web. Simply, the
reason for my taking up this debate is my belief is that there are
other, better, more-sophisticated ways of dealing with such issues
rather than the 'cease-and-desist' approach. The best is to make sure
that we don't mimick models meant for the big players and
profit-at-all-cost corporates, but rather make our own work in
cyberspace more easily sharable.

(It is a telling statement that after 13 years in cyberspace, I've
never once had the problem of having my work copied in a way that made
me feel cheated. Either my work is of so poor quality that it's not
worth copying, or my terms for copying it are such that people don't
need to violate them. Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took some time to send him
a CD of the pictures ... And he was kind enough to send me a copy or
two of the souvenir where these were published. Did I lose anything?
No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've gained a 100 times more by
making my content sharable in cyberspace.)

* My concern is that you guys -- who plagarise arguments from the
corporate copyright world, without even crediting where they come from
-- are distorting the possibilities of building sharable knowledge
unencumbered by the excessive deadweight of copyright which is today
blocking access-to-knowledge more than anything else.

(Oh yeah, none of my arguments are original... they're copied too. But
then, I take them from the free-to-share copyleft world, and don't
roam around with illusions like you guys that we are always creating
"original" knowlege and information, but I believe we are standing on
the shoulders of giants who worked to create knowledge before us and
were more helpful while sharing it, and we're fooling ourselves into
believing how tall "we" stand!)

[Also keep in mind the dubious origins of the copyright law, including
the Statue of Anne of 1710 and its predecessor: "The Statute replaced
the monopoly enjoyed by the Stationer's Company granted in 1556 during
the reign of Mary I which, after several renewals, expired in 1695.
Under this regime, company members would buy manuscripts from authors
but once purchased, would have a perpetual monopoly on the printing of
the work. Authors themselves were excluded from membership in the
company and could not therefore legally self-publish, nor were they
given royalties for books that sold well."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_Kingdom]

Lastly, if we think the world rotates mere because of the wisdom of
academia (or even the outpourings of the media!) then we are living in
at best an ivory tower, or at worst, a fool's paradise. This debate is
far beyond academia.

To me this approach makes more sense: "Share, reuse, and remix ? legally.
Creative Commons provides free tools that let authors, scientists,
artists, and educators easily mark their creative work with the
freedoms they want it to carry. You can use CC to change your
copyright terms from "All Rights Reserved" to "Some Rights Reserved.""

And I would appeal to more authors to consider putting out their work
under such a license. Our Britto's book and BMX alumni book were both
put out under such licenses, and they have done very well for
themselves (not in terms of raking in money, but in being widely read,
which was their original purpose!) --FN

PS: Do you'll guys think you can even attempt to build a Konkani
wikipedia with a zero budget and based on copyrighted information? See
below...
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-31 03:58:15 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2007-03-31 05:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this
debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go
Frederick, Go!".
My response:
No I wasn't in the "thick of this debate". If you
don't know which English expressions to use, then
maybe that Goan education system, you so virulently
defend didn't do its job after all. I was cheering
Frederick on because he has increased the scope of
this debate. It's easy to say plagiarism is
reprehensible, it is, but what is plagiarism today
needs to be adequately defined and he has done just
that. Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't
taken personal potshots at anyone on the forum in
order to do so. I find that far more offensive than
plagiarism.
Post by Sunith D Velho
The infrastructural investment I have seen you most
pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please
get of your high
horse.
My response:
Atleast the horses I ride are real ones. When you
finally get off you pony and start wearing long-pants,
we'll talk. Adult to adult.
Post by Sunith D Velho
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over
especially in Goa and
India,
My response:
Really Sunith? Then why is it that this is the first
time Goa has been mentioned in this debate? I'm sure I
could start a topic on the breeding habits of
armadillos and I'm sure I could make that too relevant
to Goa.

Selma





____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 04:08:42 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Santosh's response only underlines my point. FN
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-30 13:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Have you noticed how you and I are the only ones
obsessed with topics of city renewal, infrastructural
investment, etc. The rest of the GOAN forum seems
preoccupied with plagiarism.
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!".

The infrastructural investment I have seen you most pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please get of your high
horse.

Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-30 23:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!"....
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.
Sunith, The "Go Frederick, Go!" was just meant to score a small point
in our complex world of cyberpolitics, and I can assure you it wasn't
targeted at you. Don't take it too seriously. Selma has, of course,
unintentionally, managed to flatter my ego, and I'm back in her fan
club :-) But that wholly another issue....

Now for the facts, as I see them:

* You'll guys have hijacked this issue and turned it into one solely
focussed on academic plagarism. (In the bargain we have also used the
occasion to score points against and pilloried Dr Gilbert Lawrence,
for a book on Goa which he wrote, and which has nothing to do
whatsoever with his reputation as a medical professional.)

* Please try and recall how this issue started, as a debate over
copying -- without acknowledging -- content on the web. Simply, the
reason for my taking up this debate is my belief is that there are
other, better, more-sophisticated ways of dealing with such issues
rather than the 'cease-and-desist' approach. The best is to make sure
that we don't mimick models meant for the big players and
profit-at-all-cost corporates, but rather make our own work in
cyberspace more easily sharable.

(It is a telling statement that after 13 years in cyberspace, I've
never once had the problem of having my work copied in a way that made
me feel cheated. Either my work is of so poor quality that it's not
worth copying, or my terms for copying it are such that people don't
need to violate them. Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took some time to send him
a CD of the pictures ... And he was kind enough to send me a copy or
two of the souvenir where these were published. Did I lose anything?
No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've gained a 100 times more by
making my content sharable in cyberspace.)

* My concern is that you guys -- who plagarise arguments from the
corporate copyright world, without even crediting where they come from
-- are distorting the possibilities of building sharable knowledge
unencumbered by the excessive deadweight of copyright which is today
blocking access-to-knowledge more than anything else.

(Oh yeah, none of my arguments are original... they're copied too. But
then, I take them from the free-to-share copyleft world, and don't
roam around with illusions like you guys that we are always creating
"original" knowlege and information, but I believe we are standing on
the shoulders of giants who worked to create knowledge before us and
were more helpful while sharing it, and we're fooling ourselves into
believing how tall "we" stand!)

[Also keep in mind the dubious origins of the copyright law, including
the Statue of Anne of 1710 and its predecessor: "The Statute replaced
the monopoly enjoyed by the Stationer's Company granted in 1556 during
the reign of Mary I which, after several renewals, expired in 1695.
Under this regime, company members would buy manuscripts from authors
but once purchased, would have a perpetual monopoly on the printing of
the work. Authors themselves were excluded from membership in the
company and could not therefore legally self-publish, nor were they
given royalties for books that sold well."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_Kingdom]

Lastly, if we think the world rotates mere because of the wisdom of
academia (or even the outpourings of the media!) then we are living in
at best an ivory tower, or at worst, a fool's paradise. This debate is
far beyond academia.

To me this approach makes more sense: "Share, reuse, and remix ? legally.
Creative Commons provides free tools that let authors, scientists,
artists, and educators easily mark their creative work with the
freedoms they want it to carry. You can use CC to change your
copyright terms from "All Rights Reserved" to "Some Rights Reserved.""

And I would appeal to more authors to consider putting out their work
under such a license. Our Britto's book and BMX alumni book were both
put out under such licenses, and they have done very well for
themselves (not in terms of raking in money, but in being widely read,
which was their original purpose!) --FN

PS: Do you'll guys think you can even attempt to build a Konkani
wikipedia with a zero budget and based on copyrighted information? See
below...
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-31 03:58:15 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2007-03-31 05:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this
debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go
Frederick, Go!".
My response:
No I wasn't in the "thick of this debate". If you
don't know which English expressions to use, then
maybe that Goan education system, you so virulently
defend didn't do its job after all. I was cheering
Frederick on because he has increased the scope of
this debate. It's easy to say plagiarism is
reprehensible, it is, but what is plagiarism today
needs to be adequately defined and he has done just
that. Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't
taken personal potshots at anyone on the forum in
order to do so. I find that far more offensive than
plagiarism.
Post by Sunith D Velho
The infrastructural investment I have seen you most
pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please
get of your high
horse.
My response:
Atleast the horses I ride are real ones. When you
finally get off you pony and start wearing long-pants,
we'll talk. Adult to adult.
Post by Sunith D Velho
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over
especially in Goa and
India,
My response:
Really Sunith? Then why is it that this is the first
time Goa has been mentioned in this debate? I'm sure I
could start a topic on the breeding habits of
armadillos and I'm sure I could make that too relevant
to Goa.

Selma





____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 04:08:42 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Santosh's response only underlines my point. FN
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-30 13:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Have you noticed how you and I are the only ones
obsessed with topics of city renewal, infrastructural
investment, etc. The rest of the GOAN forum seems
preoccupied with plagiarism.
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!".

The infrastructural investment I have seen you most pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please get of your high
horse.

Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-30 23:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!"....
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.
Sunith, The "Go Frederick, Go!" was just meant to score a small point
in our complex world of cyberpolitics, and I can assure you it wasn't
targeted at you. Don't take it too seriously. Selma has, of course,
unintentionally, managed to flatter my ego, and I'm back in her fan
club :-) But that wholly another issue....

Now for the facts, as I see them:

* You'll guys have hijacked this issue and turned it into one solely
focussed on academic plagarism. (In the bargain we have also used the
occasion to score points against and pilloried Dr Gilbert Lawrence,
for a book on Goa which he wrote, and which has nothing to do
whatsoever with his reputation as a medical professional.)

* Please try and recall how this issue started, as a debate over
copying -- without acknowledging -- content on the web. Simply, the
reason for my taking up this debate is my belief is that there are
other, better, more-sophisticated ways of dealing with such issues
rather than the 'cease-and-desist' approach. The best is to make sure
that we don't mimick models meant for the big players and
profit-at-all-cost corporates, but rather make our own work in
cyberspace more easily sharable.

(It is a telling statement that after 13 years in cyberspace, I've
never once had the problem of having my work copied in a way that made
me feel cheated. Either my work is of so poor quality that it's not
worth copying, or my terms for copying it are such that people don't
need to violate them. Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took some time to send him
a CD of the pictures ... And he was kind enough to send me a copy or
two of the souvenir where these were published. Did I lose anything?
No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've gained a 100 times more by
making my content sharable in cyberspace.)

* My concern is that you guys -- who plagarise arguments from the
corporate copyright world, without even crediting where they come from
-- are distorting the possibilities of building sharable knowledge
unencumbered by the excessive deadweight of copyright which is today
blocking access-to-knowledge more than anything else.

(Oh yeah, none of my arguments are original... they're copied too. But
then, I take them from the free-to-share copyleft world, and don't
roam around with illusions like you guys that we are always creating
"original" knowlege and information, but I believe we are standing on
the shoulders of giants who worked to create knowledge before us and
were more helpful while sharing it, and we're fooling ourselves into
believing how tall "we" stand!)

[Also keep in mind the dubious origins of the copyright law, including
the Statue of Anne of 1710 and its predecessor: "The Statute replaced
the monopoly enjoyed by the Stationer's Company granted in 1556 during
the reign of Mary I which, after several renewals, expired in 1695.
Under this regime, company members would buy manuscripts from authors
but once purchased, would have a perpetual monopoly on the printing of
the work. Authors themselves were excluded from membership in the
company and could not therefore legally self-publish, nor were they
given royalties for books that sold well."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_Kingdom]

Lastly, if we think the world rotates mere because of the wisdom of
academia (or even the outpourings of the media!) then we are living in
at best an ivory tower, or at worst, a fool's paradise. This debate is
far beyond academia.

To me this approach makes more sense: "Share, reuse, and remix ? legally.
Creative Commons provides free tools that let authors, scientists,
artists, and educators easily mark their creative work with the
freedoms they want it to carry. You can use CC to change your
copyright terms from "All Rights Reserved" to "Some Rights Reserved.""

And I would appeal to more authors to consider putting out their work
under such a license. Our Britto's book and BMX alumni book were both
put out under such licenses, and they have done very well for
themselves (not in terms of raking in money, but in being widely read,
which was their original purpose!) --FN

PS: Do you'll guys think you can even attempt to build a Konkani
wikipedia with a zero budget and based on copyrighted information? See
below...
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-31 03:58:15 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2007-03-31 05:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this
debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go
Frederick, Go!".
My response:
No I wasn't in the "thick of this debate". If you
don't know which English expressions to use, then
maybe that Goan education system, you so virulently
defend didn't do its job after all. I was cheering
Frederick on because he has increased the scope of
this debate. It's easy to say plagiarism is
reprehensible, it is, but what is plagiarism today
needs to be adequately defined and he has done just
that. Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't
taken personal potshots at anyone on the forum in
order to do so. I find that far more offensive than
plagiarism.
Post by Sunith D Velho
The infrastructural investment I have seen you most
pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please
get of your high
horse.
My response:
Atleast the horses I ride are real ones. When you
finally get off you pony and start wearing long-pants,
we'll talk. Adult to adult.
Post by Sunith D Velho
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over
especially in Goa and
India,
My response:
Really Sunith? Then why is it that this is the first
time Goa has been mentioned in this debate? I'm sure I
could start a topic on the breeding habits of
armadillos and I'm sure I could make that too relevant
to Goa.

Selma





____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 04:08:42 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Santosh's response only underlines my point. FN
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-30 13:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Have you noticed how you and I are the only ones
obsessed with topics of city renewal, infrastructural
investment, etc. The rest of the GOAN forum seems
preoccupied with plagiarism.
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!".

The infrastructural investment I have seen you most pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please get of your high
horse.

Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-30 23:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!"....
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.
Sunith, The "Go Frederick, Go!" was just meant to score a small point
in our complex world of cyberpolitics, and I can assure you it wasn't
targeted at you. Don't take it too seriously. Selma has, of course,
unintentionally, managed to flatter my ego, and I'm back in her fan
club :-) But that wholly another issue....

Now for the facts, as I see them:

* You'll guys have hijacked this issue and turned it into one solely
focussed on academic plagarism. (In the bargain we have also used the
occasion to score points against and pilloried Dr Gilbert Lawrence,
for a book on Goa which he wrote, and which has nothing to do
whatsoever with his reputation as a medical professional.)

* Please try and recall how this issue started, as a debate over
copying -- without acknowledging -- content on the web. Simply, the
reason for my taking up this debate is my belief is that there are
other, better, more-sophisticated ways of dealing with such issues
rather than the 'cease-and-desist' approach. The best is to make sure
that we don't mimick models meant for the big players and
profit-at-all-cost corporates, but rather make our own work in
cyberspace more easily sharable.

(It is a telling statement that after 13 years in cyberspace, I've
never once had the problem of having my work copied in a way that made
me feel cheated. Either my work is of so poor quality that it's not
worth copying, or my terms for copying it are such that people don't
need to violate them. Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took some time to send him
a CD of the pictures ... And he was kind enough to send me a copy or
two of the souvenir where these were published. Did I lose anything?
No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've gained a 100 times more by
making my content sharable in cyberspace.)

* My concern is that you guys -- who plagarise arguments from the
corporate copyright world, without even crediting where they come from
-- are distorting the possibilities of building sharable knowledge
unencumbered by the excessive deadweight of copyright which is today
blocking access-to-knowledge more than anything else.

(Oh yeah, none of my arguments are original... they're copied too. But
then, I take them from the free-to-share copyleft world, and don't
roam around with illusions like you guys that we are always creating
"original" knowlege and information, but I believe we are standing on
the shoulders of giants who worked to create knowledge before us and
were more helpful while sharing it, and we're fooling ourselves into
believing how tall "we" stand!)

[Also keep in mind the dubious origins of the copyright law, including
the Statue of Anne of 1710 and its predecessor: "The Statute replaced
the monopoly enjoyed by the Stationer's Company granted in 1556 during
the reign of Mary I which, after several renewals, expired in 1695.
Under this regime, company members would buy manuscripts from authors
but once purchased, would have a perpetual monopoly on the printing of
the work. Authors themselves were excluded from membership in the
company and could not therefore legally self-publish, nor were they
given royalties for books that sold well."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_Kingdom]

Lastly, if we think the world rotates mere because of the wisdom of
academia (or even the outpourings of the media!) then we are living in
at best an ivory tower, or at worst, a fool's paradise. This debate is
far beyond academia.

To me this approach makes more sense: "Share, reuse, and remix ? legally.
Creative Commons provides free tools that let authors, scientists,
artists, and educators easily mark their creative work with the
freedoms they want it to carry. You can use CC to change your
copyright terms from "All Rights Reserved" to "Some Rights Reserved.""

And I would appeal to more authors to consider putting out their work
under such a license. Our Britto's book and BMX alumni book were both
put out under such licenses, and they have done very well for
themselves (not in terms of raking in money, but in being widely read,
which was their original purpose!) --FN

PS: Do you'll guys think you can even attempt to build a Konkani
wikipedia with a zero budget and based on copyrighted information? See
below...
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-31 03:58:15 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2007-03-31 05:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this
debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go
Frederick, Go!".
My response:
No I wasn't in the "thick of this debate". If you
don't know which English expressions to use, then
maybe that Goan education system, you so virulently
defend didn't do its job after all. I was cheering
Frederick on because he has increased the scope of
this debate. It's easy to say plagiarism is
reprehensible, it is, but what is plagiarism today
needs to be adequately defined and he has done just
that. Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't
taken personal potshots at anyone on the forum in
order to do so. I find that far more offensive than
plagiarism.
Post by Sunith D Velho
The infrastructural investment I have seen you most
pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please
get of your high
horse.
My response:
Atleast the horses I ride are real ones. When you
finally get off you pony and start wearing long-pants,
we'll talk. Adult to adult.
Post by Sunith D Velho
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over
especially in Goa and
India,
My response:
Really Sunith? Then why is it that this is the first
time Goa has been mentioned in this debate? I'm sure I
could start a topic on the breeding habits of
armadillos and I'm sure I could make that too relevant
to Goa.

Selma





____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 04:08:42 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Santosh's response only underlines my point. FN
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-30 13:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Have you noticed how you and I are the only ones
obsessed with topics of city renewal, infrastructural
investment, etc. The rest of the GOAN forum seems
preoccupied with plagiarism.
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!".

The infrastructural investment I have seen you most pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please get of your high
horse.

Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-30 23:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!"....
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.
Sunith, The "Go Frederick, Go!" was just meant to score a small point
in our complex world of cyberpolitics, and I can assure you it wasn't
targeted at you. Don't take it too seriously. Selma has, of course,
unintentionally, managed to flatter my ego, and I'm back in her fan
club :-) But that wholly another issue....

Now for the facts, as I see them:

* You'll guys have hijacked this issue and turned it into one solely
focussed on academic plagarism. (In the bargain we have also used the
occasion to score points against and pilloried Dr Gilbert Lawrence,
for a book on Goa which he wrote, and which has nothing to do
whatsoever with his reputation as a medical professional.)

* Please try and recall how this issue started, as a debate over
copying -- without acknowledging -- content on the web. Simply, the
reason for my taking up this debate is my belief is that there are
other, better, more-sophisticated ways of dealing with such issues
rather than the 'cease-and-desist' approach. The best is to make sure
that we don't mimick models meant for the big players and
profit-at-all-cost corporates, but rather make our own work in
cyberspace more easily sharable.

(It is a telling statement that after 13 years in cyberspace, I've
never once had the problem of having my work copied in a way that made
me feel cheated. Either my work is of so poor quality that it's not
worth copying, or my terms for copying it are such that people don't
need to violate them. Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took some time to send him
a CD of the pictures ... And he was kind enough to send me a copy or
two of the souvenir where these were published. Did I lose anything?
No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've gained a 100 times more by
making my content sharable in cyberspace.)

* My concern is that you guys -- who plagarise arguments from the
corporate copyright world, without even crediting where they come from
-- are distorting the possibilities of building sharable knowledge
unencumbered by the excessive deadweight of copyright which is today
blocking access-to-knowledge more than anything else.

(Oh yeah, none of my arguments are original... they're copied too. But
then, I take them from the free-to-share copyleft world, and don't
roam around with illusions like you guys that we are always creating
"original" knowlege and information, but I believe we are standing on
the shoulders of giants who worked to create knowledge before us and
were more helpful while sharing it, and we're fooling ourselves into
believing how tall "we" stand!)

[Also keep in mind the dubious origins of the copyright law, including
the Statue of Anne of 1710 and its predecessor: "The Statute replaced
the monopoly enjoyed by the Stationer's Company granted in 1556 during
the reign of Mary I which, after several renewals, expired in 1695.
Under this regime, company members would buy manuscripts from authors
but once purchased, would have a perpetual monopoly on the printing of
the work. Authors themselves were excluded from membership in the
company and could not therefore legally self-publish, nor were they
given royalties for books that sold well."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_Kingdom]

Lastly, if we think the world rotates mere because of the wisdom of
academia (or even the outpourings of the media!) then we are living in
at best an ivory tower, or at worst, a fool's paradise. This debate is
far beyond academia.

To me this approach makes more sense: "Share, reuse, and remix ? legally.
Creative Commons provides free tools that let authors, scientists,
artists, and educators easily mark their creative work with the
freedoms they want it to carry. You can use CC to change your
copyright terms from "All Rights Reserved" to "Some Rights Reserved.""

And I would appeal to more authors to consider putting out their work
under such a license. Our Britto's book and BMX alumni book were both
put out under such licenses, and they have done very well for
themselves (not in terms of raking in money, but in being widely read,
which was their original purpose!) --FN

PS: Do you'll guys think you can even attempt to build a Konkani
wikipedia with a zero budget and based on copyrighted information? See
below...
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-31 03:58:15 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2007-03-31 05:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this
debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go
Frederick, Go!".
My response:
No I wasn't in the "thick of this debate". If you
don't know which English expressions to use, then
maybe that Goan education system, you so virulently
defend didn't do its job after all. I was cheering
Frederick on because he has increased the scope of
this debate. It's easy to say plagiarism is
reprehensible, it is, but what is plagiarism today
needs to be adequately defined and he has done just
that. Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't
taken personal potshots at anyone on the forum in
order to do so. I find that far more offensive than
plagiarism.
Post by Sunith D Velho
The infrastructural investment I have seen you most
pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please
get of your high
horse.
My response:
Atleast the horses I ride are real ones. When you
finally get off you pony and start wearing long-pants,
we'll talk. Adult to adult.
Post by Sunith D Velho
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over
especially in Goa and
India,
My response:
Really Sunith? Then why is it that this is the first
time Goa has been mentioned in this debate? I'm sure I
could start a topic on the breeding habits of
armadillos and I'm sure I could make that too relevant
to Goa.

Selma





____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 04:08:42 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Santosh's response only underlines my point. FN
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sunith D Velho
2007-03-30 13:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Have you noticed how you and I are the only ones
obsessed with topics of city renewal, infrastructural
investment, etc. The rest of the GOAN forum seems
preoccupied with plagiarism.
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!".

The infrastructural investment I have seen you most pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please get of your high
horse.

Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2007-03-30 23:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go Frederick, Go!"....
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over especially in Goa and
India, where there are very few safeguards in place. If I'm not
mistaken, the ex(?) HOD of the Electronics department of Goa
Engineering College was accused of it and of misrepresenting his
educational qualifications a while ago, and the students went on strike
to have him removed.
Sunith, The "Go Frederick, Go!" was just meant to score a small point
in our complex world of cyberpolitics, and I can assure you it wasn't
targeted at you. Don't take it too seriously. Selma has, of course,
unintentionally, managed to flatter my ego, and I'm back in her fan
club :-) But that wholly another issue....

Now for the facts, as I see them:

* You'll guys have hijacked this issue and turned it into one solely
focussed on academic plagarism. (In the bargain we have also used the
occasion to score points against and pilloried Dr Gilbert Lawrence,
for a book on Goa which he wrote, and which has nothing to do
whatsoever with his reputation as a medical professional.)

* Please try and recall how this issue started, as a debate over
copying -- without acknowledging -- content on the web. Simply, the
reason for my taking up this debate is my belief is that there are
other, better, more-sophisticated ways of dealing with such issues
rather than the 'cease-and-desist' approach. The best is to make sure
that we don't mimick models meant for the big players and
profit-at-all-cost corporates, but rather make our own work in
cyberspace more easily sharable.

(It is a telling statement that after 13 years in cyberspace, I've
never once had the problem of having my work copied in a way that made
me feel cheated. Either my work is of so poor quality that it's not
worth copying, or my terms for copying it are such that people don't
need to violate them. Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took some time to send him
a CD of the pictures ... And he was kind enough to send me a copy or
two of the souvenir where these were published. Did I lose anything?
No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've gained a 100 times more by
making my content sharable in cyberspace.)

* My concern is that you guys -- who plagarise arguments from the
corporate copyright world, without even crediting where they come from
-- are distorting the possibilities of building sharable knowledge
unencumbered by the excessive deadweight of copyright which is today
blocking access-to-knowledge more than anything else.

(Oh yeah, none of my arguments are original... they're copied too. But
then, I take them from the free-to-share copyleft world, and don't
roam around with illusions like you guys that we are always creating
"original" knowlege and information, but I believe we are standing on
the shoulders of giants who worked to create knowledge before us and
were more helpful while sharing it, and we're fooling ourselves into
believing how tall "we" stand!)

[Also keep in mind the dubious origins of the copyright law, including
the Statue of Anne of 1710 and its predecessor: "The Statute replaced
the monopoly enjoyed by the Stationer's Company granted in 1556 during
the reign of Mary I which, after several renewals, expired in 1695.
Under this regime, company members would buy manuscripts from authors
but once purchased, would have a perpetual monopoly on the printing of
the work. Authors themselves were excluded from membership in the
company and could not therefore legally self-publish, nor were they
given royalties for books that sold well."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_Kingdom]

Lastly, if we think the world rotates mere because of the wisdom of
academia (or even the outpourings of the media!) then we are living in
at best an ivory tower, or at worst, a fool's paradise. This debate is
far beyond academia.

To me this approach makes more sense: "Share, reuse, and remix ? legally.
Creative Commons provides free tools that let authors, scientists,
artists, and educators easily mark their creative work with the
freedoms they want it to carry. You can use CC to change your
copyright terms from "All Rights Reserved" to "Some Rights Reserved.""

And I would appeal to more authors to consider putting out their work
under such a license. Our Britto's book and BMX alumni book were both
put out under such licenses, and they have done very well for
themselves (not in terms of raking in money, but in being widely read,
which was their original purpose!) --FN

PS: Do you'll guys think you can even attempt to build a Konkani
wikipedia with a zero budget and based on copyrighted information? See
below...
--
FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Santosh Helekar
2007-03-31 03:58:15 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Or both! In fact, when Dr Santosh needed some
photos for a souvenir, if I recall right, I took
some time to send him a CD of the pictures ... And he
was kind enough to send me a copy or two of the
souvenir where these were published. Did I lose
anything? No. Did I gain? Sure... I always say I've
gained a 100 times more by making my content sharable
in cyberspace.
Frederick's contribution was duly acknowledged in that
souvenir. Not only was a profusion of words used to
express my gratitude to him in my editorial, but
because of his generosity he was granted lifelong
immunity from being pilloried by me.

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2007-03-31 05:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith D Velho
If I'm not mistaken weren't you in the thick of this
debate , a few
posts ago, enlightening us with gems such as "Go
Frederick, Go!".
My response:
No I wasn't in the "thick of this debate". If you
don't know which English expressions to use, then
maybe that Goan education system, you so virulently
defend didn't do its job after all. I was cheering
Frederick on because he has increased the scope of
this debate. It's easy to say plagiarism is
reprehensible, it is, but what is plagiarism today
needs to be adequately defined and he has done just
that. Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't
taken personal potshots at anyone on the forum in
order to do so. I find that far more offensive than
plagiarism.
Post by Sunith D Velho
The infrastructural investment I have seen you most
pre-ocupied with is
nappy changing tables at Dabolim Airport. So please
get of your high
horse.
My response:
Atleast the horses I ride are real ones. When you
finally get off you pony and start wearing long-pants,
we'll talk. Adult to adult.
Post by Sunith D Velho
Plagiarism is a serious issue the world over
especially in Goa and
India,
My response:
Really Sunith? Then why is it that this is the first
time Goa has been mentioned in this debate? I'm sure I
could start a topic on the breeding habits of
armadillos and I'm sure I could make that too relevant
to Goa.

Selma





____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 04:08:42 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Santosh's response only underlines my point. FN
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.

Cheers,

Santosh
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-01 13:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't taken personal
potshots at >>anyone on the forum in order to do so. I find that far
more offensive than
plagiarism.
Good to see you set different standards for Frederick and yourself.
I'll resist the tempation to respond to your personal potshots.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 17:41:07 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution and copyright violations are not
necessarily linked. We are confusing issues here. The
two do not necessarily go together.
Good! You have finally realized that you were
confusing those two separate issues. That was exactly
my point all along, and that of Basilio, Jose, Bosco,
Cecil, Sunith and George. Please read their posts
carefully to see the point of agreement.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution is a form of showing courtesy.
It is much more than that. Attribution is important
because:

1. It is quintessentially the practice of intellectual
honesty.

2. It allows us to verify the accuracy, validity and
credibility of the information presented.

3. It enables cross-referencing of information, and
promotes further reading of the subject in the right
direction.

4. It provides a historical context to the ideas
presented.

5. Proper attribution discourages perpetuation of
urban legends, and political and ideological
propaganda.

Cheers,

Santosh
allwyntc
2007-04-01 19:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
How can you disassociate the two? Copyright law is based on proof of
plagiarism. On a medical research level it is like ignoring the side
effects of a "miracle" drug. [Side jab: Oh, I forgot, medical
researchers conveniently forget to do this part of their homework,
anyway :-]

I am not defending plagiarism. Its perpetrators needs to be fittingly
rebuked with punishment that fits the crime. However, I contend that
plagiarism is not a chronic problem because it is easily moderated by
peer review. For someone to succeed they have to make original
contributions. Plagiarism can only take them that far before they
crumble under their own weight (food they have eaten but not digested,
so to speak).

It's evil counterpart, copyright law, however, is sinister and could
have long lasting effects because it has the backing of law
enforcement. Moreover, as there is so much evidence, this "law" can
so easily be abused by the rich and powerful to make them even more
rich and more powerful.

Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress. It's
perpetrators, not having made any original contribution, have at least
not deterred others from doing so (unless they also try to
illegitimately copyright the work, which then becomes exactly the
problem of copyrighting).

Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. "No, you cannot use my MP3 algorithm in your code base
without first letting me have your firstborn offspring". The point
here is not whether or not they have the right, as per the law, to the
firstborn offspring. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.

Imagine a world in the stone ages where the first people who
discovered the first few rudimentary useful properties of the wheel
copyrighted the concept and everyone who used this concept in any
subsequent development had to pay them a cut.

Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.

To summarize, you cannot talk about the problems of plagiarism without
also talking about the problems of copyright law. I commend efforts
to seek alternatives to copyrighting and make their usage more
prevalent. Looks like there was a win-win between FN and Santosh with
the photo CD. Here's to more of that.

For those who wish to see the debate purely from the perspective of
academic research, remember the words of the famous philosopher,
Anonymous -- "The difference between theory and practice, in practice,
is greater than the difference between theory and practice, in
theory".

Keep in touch.
Allwyn.
Carvalho
2007-04-02 06:00:29 UTC
Permalink
"The ambulance siren was blaring across the crowded
lanes and not one car of humanity moved to make way
for the man or woman or child battling for their
life".

"The man driving in the car had on his lap, a small
child wedged between himself and the steering wheel".

"Under the bridge was a gang of children ranging from
possibly two to ten. They were playing unsupervised as
is the norm. It was a mock fight, perhaps an enactment
of some scene the older children had seen in a
Bollywood movie. This innocence, did not temper its
viciousness. The younger children received repeated
kicks and blows. As a mother my heart solidified into
a thick clump of clay. What if a mother returned to
find her own child lying dead? How many of these
children would survive into adulthood? How many of
them would survive the physical and emotional
vengeance of their youth?".

Perhaps in the larger scheme of things, these
instances will seem trivial. Not important given the
magnitude of more urgent matters, like poverty and
corrupt governments. And yet, they are important. They
are subtle indicators of how the moral Zeitgeist of
Goa is formed. Of the values that are important to us,
and values we will shape in generations to come.

Richard Dawkins writes, "in a society there exists a
somewhat mysterious consensus, which changes over the
decades, and for which it is not pretentious to use
the German loan-word Zeitgeist.....It spreads itself
from mind to mind through conversations in bars and at
dinner parties, through books and book reviews,
through newspapers and broadcasting, and nowadays
through the Internet".

Is the moral Zeitgeist in Goa stunted? Is it to be
defined purely in terms of the resources available to
us? Is our lack of visionary leaders and role models
gnawing away at our ability to move our morality
forward? And indeed morality is precisely the word we
should use. We don't live in a world where morality is
defined purely by larger moral dilemmas like killing
or adultery. Our morality also includes the mundane.
It deals with day-to-day issues such as how we protect
our children, of not driving while drunk, of not
littering on beaches, or not killing near-extinct
animals, of not stealing company time, of not asking
for bribes.

The moral Zeitgeist of Goa, we have move this looming
spirit of the times into the 21st century through
education and dialogue and vision. We have to become
more conscious of how the world around us is changing,
moving ahead and we have to fall in step with it, if
we are not to be left behind.

selma






____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-01 13:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't taken personal
potshots at >>anyone on the forum in order to do so. I find that far
more offensive than
plagiarism.
Good to see you set different standards for Frederick and yourself.
I'll resist the tempation to respond to your personal potshots.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 17:41:07 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution and copyright violations are not
necessarily linked. We are confusing issues here. The
two do not necessarily go together.
Good! You have finally realized that you were
confusing those two separate issues. That was exactly
my point all along, and that of Basilio, Jose, Bosco,
Cecil, Sunith and George. Please read their posts
carefully to see the point of agreement.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution is a form of showing courtesy.
It is much more than that. Attribution is important
because:

1. It is quintessentially the practice of intellectual
honesty.

2. It allows us to verify the accuracy, validity and
credibility of the information presented.

3. It enables cross-referencing of information, and
promotes further reading of the subject in the right
direction.

4. It provides a historical context to the ideas
presented.

5. Proper attribution discourages perpetuation of
urban legends, and political and ideological
propaganda.

Cheers,

Santosh
allwyntc
2007-04-01 19:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
How can you disassociate the two? Copyright law is based on proof of
plagiarism. On a medical research level it is like ignoring the side
effects of a "miracle" drug. [Side jab: Oh, I forgot, medical
researchers conveniently forget to do this part of their homework,
anyway :-]

I am not defending plagiarism. Its perpetrators needs to be fittingly
rebuked with punishment that fits the crime. However, I contend that
plagiarism is not a chronic problem because it is easily moderated by
peer review. For someone to succeed they have to make original
contributions. Plagiarism can only take them that far before they
crumble under their own weight (food they have eaten but not digested,
so to speak).

It's evil counterpart, copyright law, however, is sinister and could
have long lasting effects because it has the backing of law
enforcement. Moreover, as there is so much evidence, this "law" can
so easily be abused by the rich and powerful to make them even more
rich and more powerful.

Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress. It's
perpetrators, not having made any original contribution, have at least
not deterred others from doing so (unless they also try to
illegitimately copyright the work, which then becomes exactly the
problem of copyrighting).

Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. "No, you cannot use my MP3 algorithm in your code base
without first letting me have your firstborn offspring". The point
here is not whether or not they have the right, as per the law, to the
firstborn offspring. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.

Imagine a world in the stone ages where the first people who
discovered the first few rudimentary useful properties of the wheel
copyrighted the concept and everyone who used this concept in any
subsequent development had to pay them a cut.

Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.

To summarize, you cannot talk about the problems of plagiarism without
also talking about the problems of copyright law. I commend efforts
to seek alternatives to copyrighting and make their usage more
prevalent. Looks like there was a win-win between FN and Santosh with
the photo CD. Here's to more of that.

For those who wish to see the debate purely from the perspective of
academic research, remember the words of the famous philosopher,
Anonymous -- "The difference between theory and practice, in practice,
is greater than the difference between theory and practice, in
theory".

Keep in touch.
Allwyn.
Carvalho
2007-04-02 06:00:29 UTC
Permalink
"The ambulance siren was blaring across the crowded
lanes and not one car of humanity moved to make way
for the man or woman or child battling for their
life".

"The man driving in the car had on his lap, a small
child wedged between himself and the steering wheel".

"Under the bridge was a gang of children ranging from
possibly two to ten. They were playing unsupervised as
is the norm. It was a mock fight, perhaps an enactment
of some scene the older children had seen in a
Bollywood movie. This innocence, did not temper its
viciousness. The younger children received repeated
kicks and blows. As a mother my heart solidified into
a thick clump of clay. What if a mother returned to
find her own child lying dead? How many of these
children would survive into adulthood? How many of
them would survive the physical and emotional
vengeance of their youth?".

Perhaps in the larger scheme of things, these
instances will seem trivial. Not important given the
magnitude of more urgent matters, like poverty and
corrupt governments. And yet, they are important. They
are subtle indicators of how the moral Zeitgeist of
Goa is formed. Of the values that are important to us,
and values we will shape in generations to come.

Richard Dawkins writes, "in a society there exists a
somewhat mysterious consensus, which changes over the
decades, and for which it is not pretentious to use
the German loan-word Zeitgeist.....It spreads itself
from mind to mind through conversations in bars and at
dinner parties, through books and book reviews,
through newspapers and broadcasting, and nowadays
through the Internet".

Is the moral Zeitgeist in Goa stunted? Is it to be
defined purely in terms of the resources available to
us? Is our lack of visionary leaders and role models
gnawing away at our ability to move our morality
forward? And indeed morality is precisely the word we
should use. We don't live in a world where morality is
defined purely by larger moral dilemmas like killing
or adultery. Our morality also includes the mundane.
It deals with day-to-day issues such as how we protect
our children, of not driving while drunk, of not
littering on beaches, or not killing near-extinct
animals, of not stealing company time, of not asking
for bribes.

The moral Zeitgeist of Goa, we have move this looming
spirit of the times into the 21st century through
education and dialogue and vision. We have to become
more conscious of how the world around us is changing,
moving ahead and we have to fall in step with it, if
we are not to be left behind.

selma






____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-01 13:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't taken personal
potshots at >>anyone on the forum in order to do so. I find that far
more offensive than
plagiarism.
Good to see you set different standards for Frederick and yourself.
I'll resist the tempation to respond to your personal potshots.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 17:41:07 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution and copyright violations are not
necessarily linked. We are confusing issues here. The
two do not necessarily go together.
Good! You have finally realized that you were
confusing those two separate issues. That was exactly
my point all along, and that of Basilio, Jose, Bosco,
Cecil, Sunith and George. Please read their posts
carefully to see the point of agreement.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution is a form of showing courtesy.
It is much more than that. Attribution is important
because:

1. It is quintessentially the practice of intellectual
honesty.

2. It allows us to verify the accuracy, validity and
credibility of the information presented.

3. It enables cross-referencing of information, and
promotes further reading of the subject in the right
direction.

4. It provides a historical context to the ideas
presented.

5. Proper attribution discourages perpetuation of
urban legends, and political and ideological
propaganda.

Cheers,

Santosh
allwyntc
2007-04-01 19:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
How can you disassociate the two? Copyright law is based on proof of
plagiarism. On a medical research level it is like ignoring the side
effects of a "miracle" drug. [Side jab: Oh, I forgot, medical
researchers conveniently forget to do this part of their homework,
anyway :-]

I am not defending plagiarism. Its perpetrators needs to be fittingly
rebuked with punishment that fits the crime. However, I contend that
plagiarism is not a chronic problem because it is easily moderated by
peer review. For someone to succeed they have to make original
contributions. Plagiarism can only take them that far before they
crumble under their own weight (food they have eaten but not digested,
so to speak).

It's evil counterpart, copyright law, however, is sinister and could
have long lasting effects because it has the backing of law
enforcement. Moreover, as there is so much evidence, this "law" can
so easily be abused by the rich and powerful to make them even more
rich and more powerful.

Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress. It's
perpetrators, not having made any original contribution, have at least
not deterred others from doing so (unless they also try to
illegitimately copyright the work, which then becomes exactly the
problem of copyrighting).

Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. "No, you cannot use my MP3 algorithm in your code base
without first letting me have your firstborn offspring". The point
here is not whether or not they have the right, as per the law, to the
firstborn offspring. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.

Imagine a world in the stone ages where the first people who
discovered the first few rudimentary useful properties of the wheel
copyrighted the concept and everyone who used this concept in any
subsequent development had to pay them a cut.

Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.

To summarize, you cannot talk about the problems of plagiarism without
also talking about the problems of copyright law. I commend efforts
to seek alternatives to copyrighting and make their usage more
prevalent. Looks like there was a win-win between FN and Santosh with
the photo CD. Here's to more of that.

For those who wish to see the debate purely from the perspective of
academic research, remember the words of the famous philosopher,
Anonymous -- "The difference between theory and practice, in practice,
is greater than the difference between theory and practice, in
theory".

Keep in touch.
Allwyn.
Carvalho
2007-04-02 06:00:29 UTC
Permalink
"The ambulance siren was blaring across the crowded
lanes and not one car of humanity moved to make way
for the man or woman or child battling for their
life".

"The man driving in the car had on his lap, a small
child wedged between himself and the steering wheel".

"Under the bridge was a gang of children ranging from
possibly two to ten. They were playing unsupervised as
is the norm. It was a mock fight, perhaps an enactment
of some scene the older children had seen in a
Bollywood movie. This innocence, did not temper its
viciousness. The younger children received repeated
kicks and blows. As a mother my heart solidified into
a thick clump of clay. What if a mother returned to
find her own child lying dead? How many of these
children would survive into adulthood? How many of
them would survive the physical and emotional
vengeance of their youth?".

Perhaps in the larger scheme of things, these
instances will seem trivial. Not important given the
magnitude of more urgent matters, like poverty and
corrupt governments. And yet, they are important. They
are subtle indicators of how the moral Zeitgeist of
Goa is formed. Of the values that are important to us,
and values we will shape in generations to come.

Richard Dawkins writes, "in a society there exists a
somewhat mysterious consensus, which changes over the
decades, and for which it is not pretentious to use
the German loan-word Zeitgeist.....It spreads itself
from mind to mind through conversations in bars and at
dinner parties, through books and book reviews,
through newspapers and broadcasting, and nowadays
through the Internet".

Is the moral Zeitgeist in Goa stunted? Is it to be
defined purely in terms of the resources available to
us? Is our lack of visionary leaders and role models
gnawing away at our ability to move our morality
forward? And indeed morality is precisely the word we
should use. We don't live in a world where morality is
defined purely by larger moral dilemmas like killing
or adultery. Our morality also includes the mundane.
It deals with day-to-day issues such as how we protect
our children, of not driving while drunk, of not
littering on beaches, or not killing near-extinct
animals, of not stealing company time, of not asking
for bribes.

The moral Zeitgeist of Goa, we have move this looming
spirit of the times into the 21st century through
education and dialogue and vision. We have to become
more conscious of how the world around us is changing,
moving ahead and we have to fall in step with it, if
we are not to be left behind.

selma






____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-01 13:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't taken personal
potshots at >>anyone on the forum in order to do so. I find that far
more offensive than
plagiarism.
Good to see you set different standards for Frederick and yourself.
I'll resist the tempation to respond to your personal potshots.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 17:41:07 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution and copyright violations are not
necessarily linked. We are confusing issues here. The
two do not necessarily go together.
Good! You have finally realized that you were
confusing those two separate issues. That was exactly
my point all along, and that of Basilio, Jose, Bosco,
Cecil, Sunith and George. Please read their posts
carefully to see the point of agreement.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution is a form of showing courtesy.
It is much more than that. Attribution is important
because:

1. It is quintessentially the practice of intellectual
honesty.

2. It allows us to verify the accuracy, validity and
credibility of the information presented.

3. It enables cross-referencing of information, and
promotes further reading of the subject in the right
direction.

4. It provides a historical context to the ideas
presented.

5. Proper attribution discourages perpetuation of
urban legends, and political and ideological
propaganda.

Cheers,

Santosh
allwyntc
2007-04-01 19:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
How can you disassociate the two? Copyright law is based on proof of
plagiarism. On a medical research level it is like ignoring the side
effects of a "miracle" drug. [Side jab: Oh, I forgot, medical
researchers conveniently forget to do this part of their homework,
anyway :-]

I am not defending plagiarism. Its perpetrators needs to be fittingly
rebuked with punishment that fits the crime. However, I contend that
plagiarism is not a chronic problem because it is easily moderated by
peer review. For someone to succeed they have to make original
contributions. Plagiarism can only take them that far before they
crumble under their own weight (food they have eaten but not digested,
so to speak).

It's evil counterpart, copyright law, however, is sinister and could
have long lasting effects because it has the backing of law
enforcement. Moreover, as there is so much evidence, this "law" can
so easily be abused by the rich and powerful to make them even more
rich and more powerful.

Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress. It's
perpetrators, not having made any original contribution, have at least
not deterred others from doing so (unless they also try to
illegitimately copyright the work, which then becomes exactly the
problem of copyrighting).

Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. "No, you cannot use my MP3 algorithm in your code base
without first letting me have your firstborn offspring". The point
here is not whether or not they have the right, as per the law, to the
firstborn offspring. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.

Imagine a world in the stone ages where the first people who
discovered the first few rudimentary useful properties of the wheel
copyrighted the concept and everyone who used this concept in any
subsequent development had to pay them a cut.

Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.

To summarize, you cannot talk about the problems of plagiarism without
also talking about the problems of copyright law. I commend efforts
to seek alternatives to copyrighting and make their usage more
prevalent. Looks like there was a win-win between FN and Santosh with
the photo CD. Here's to more of that.

For those who wish to see the debate purely from the perspective of
academic research, remember the words of the famous philosopher,
Anonymous -- "The difference between theory and practice, in practice,
is greater than the difference between theory and practice, in
theory".

Keep in touch.
Allwyn.
Carvalho
2007-04-02 06:00:29 UTC
Permalink
"The ambulance siren was blaring across the crowded
lanes and not one car of humanity moved to make way
for the man or woman or child battling for their
life".

"The man driving in the car had on his lap, a small
child wedged between himself and the steering wheel".

"Under the bridge was a gang of children ranging from
possibly two to ten. They were playing unsupervised as
is the norm. It was a mock fight, perhaps an enactment
of some scene the older children had seen in a
Bollywood movie. This innocence, did not temper its
viciousness. The younger children received repeated
kicks and blows. As a mother my heart solidified into
a thick clump of clay. What if a mother returned to
find her own child lying dead? How many of these
children would survive into adulthood? How many of
them would survive the physical and emotional
vengeance of their youth?".

Perhaps in the larger scheme of things, these
instances will seem trivial. Not important given the
magnitude of more urgent matters, like poverty and
corrupt governments. And yet, they are important. They
are subtle indicators of how the moral Zeitgeist of
Goa is formed. Of the values that are important to us,
and values we will shape in generations to come.

Richard Dawkins writes, "in a society there exists a
somewhat mysterious consensus, which changes over the
decades, and for which it is not pretentious to use
the German loan-word Zeitgeist.....It spreads itself
from mind to mind through conversations in bars and at
dinner parties, through books and book reviews,
through newspapers and broadcasting, and nowadays
through the Internet".

Is the moral Zeitgeist in Goa stunted? Is it to be
defined purely in terms of the resources available to
us? Is our lack of visionary leaders and role models
gnawing away at our ability to move our morality
forward? And indeed morality is precisely the word we
should use. We don't live in a world where morality is
defined purely by larger moral dilemmas like killing
or adultery. Our morality also includes the mundane.
It deals with day-to-day issues such as how we protect
our children, of not driving while drunk, of not
littering on beaches, or not killing near-extinct
animals, of not stealing company time, of not asking
for bribes.

The moral Zeitgeist of Goa, we have move this looming
spirit of the times into the 21st century through
education and dialogue and vision. We have to become
more conscious of how the world around us is changing,
moving ahead and we have to fall in step with it, if
we are not to be left behind.

selma






____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-01 13:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't taken personal
potshots at >>anyone on the forum in order to do so. I find that far
more offensive than
plagiarism.
Good to see you set different standards for Frederick and yourself.
I'll resist the tempation to respond to your personal potshots.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 17:41:07 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution and copyright violations are not
necessarily linked. We are confusing issues here. The
two do not necessarily go together.
Good! You have finally realized that you were
confusing those two separate issues. That was exactly
my point all along, and that of Basilio, Jose, Bosco,
Cecil, Sunith and George. Please read their posts
carefully to see the point of agreement.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution is a form of showing courtesy.
It is much more than that. Attribution is important
because:

1. It is quintessentially the practice of intellectual
honesty.

2. It allows us to verify the accuracy, validity and
credibility of the information presented.

3. It enables cross-referencing of information, and
promotes further reading of the subject in the right
direction.

4. It provides a historical context to the ideas
presented.

5. Proper attribution discourages perpetuation of
urban legends, and political and ideological
propaganda.

Cheers,

Santosh
allwyntc
2007-04-01 19:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
How can you disassociate the two? Copyright law is based on proof of
plagiarism. On a medical research level it is like ignoring the side
effects of a "miracle" drug. [Side jab: Oh, I forgot, medical
researchers conveniently forget to do this part of their homework,
anyway :-]

I am not defending plagiarism. Its perpetrators needs to be fittingly
rebuked with punishment that fits the crime. However, I contend that
plagiarism is not a chronic problem because it is easily moderated by
peer review. For someone to succeed they have to make original
contributions. Plagiarism can only take them that far before they
crumble under their own weight (food they have eaten but not digested,
so to speak).

It's evil counterpart, copyright law, however, is sinister and could
have long lasting effects because it has the backing of law
enforcement. Moreover, as there is so much evidence, this "law" can
so easily be abused by the rich and powerful to make them even more
rich and more powerful.

Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress. It's
perpetrators, not having made any original contribution, have at least
not deterred others from doing so (unless they also try to
illegitimately copyright the work, which then becomes exactly the
problem of copyrighting).

Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. "No, you cannot use my MP3 algorithm in your code base
without first letting me have your firstborn offspring". The point
here is not whether or not they have the right, as per the law, to the
firstborn offspring. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.

Imagine a world in the stone ages where the first people who
discovered the first few rudimentary useful properties of the wheel
copyrighted the concept and everyone who used this concept in any
subsequent development had to pay them a cut.

Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.

To summarize, you cannot talk about the problems of plagiarism without
also talking about the problems of copyright law. I commend efforts
to seek alternatives to copyrighting and make their usage more
prevalent. Looks like there was a win-win between FN and Santosh with
the photo CD. Here's to more of that.

For those who wish to see the debate purely from the perspective of
academic research, remember the words of the famous philosopher,
Anonymous -- "The difference between theory and practice, in practice,
is greater than the difference between theory and practice, in
theory".

Keep in touch.
Allwyn.
Carvalho
2007-04-02 06:00:29 UTC
Permalink
"The ambulance siren was blaring across the crowded
lanes and not one car of humanity moved to make way
for the man or woman or child battling for their
life".

"The man driving in the car had on his lap, a small
child wedged between himself and the steering wheel".

"Under the bridge was a gang of children ranging from
possibly two to ten. They were playing unsupervised as
is the norm. It was a mock fight, perhaps an enactment
of some scene the older children had seen in a
Bollywood movie. This innocence, did not temper its
viciousness. The younger children received repeated
kicks and blows. As a mother my heart solidified into
a thick clump of clay. What if a mother returned to
find her own child lying dead? How many of these
children would survive into adulthood? How many of
them would survive the physical and emotional
vengeance of their youth?".

Perhaps in the larger scheme of things, these
instances will seem trivial. Not important given the
magnitude of more urgent matters, like poverty and
corrupt governments. And yet, they are important. They
are subtle indicators of how the moral Zeitgeist of
Goa is formed. Of the values that are important to us,
and values we will shape in generations to come.

Richard Dawkins writes, "in a society there exists a
somewhat mysterious consensus, which changes over the
decades, and for which it is not pretentious to use
the German loan-word Zeitgeist.....It spreads itself
from mind to mind through conversations in bars and at
dinner parties, through books and book reviews,
through newspapers and broadcasting, and nowadays
through the Internet".

Is the moral Zeitgeist in Goa stunted? Is it to be
defined purely in terms of the resources available to
us? Is our lack of visionary leaders and role models
gnawing away at our ability to move our morality
forward? And indeed morality is precisely the word we
should use. We don't live in a world where morality is
defined purely by larger moral dilemmas like killing
or adultery. Our morality also includes the mundane.
It deals with day-to-day issues such as how we protect
our children, of not driving while drunk, of not
littering on beaches, or not killing near-extinct
animals, of not stealing company time, of not asking
for bribes.

The moral Zeitgeist of Goa, we have move this looming
spirit of the times into the 21st century through
education and dialogue and vision. We have to become
more conscious of how the world around us is changing,
moving ahead and we have to fall in step with it, if
we are not to be left behind.

selma






____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-01 13:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't taken personal
potshots at >>anyone on the forum in order to do so. I find that far
more offensive than
plagiarism.
Good to see you set different standards for Frederick and yourself.
I'll resist the tempation to respond to your personal potshots.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 17:41:07 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution and copyright violations are not
necessarily linked. We are confusing issues here. The
two do not necessarily go together.
Good! You have finally realized that you were
confusing those two separate issues. That was exactly
my point all along, and that of Basilio, Jose, Bosco,
Cecil, Sunith and George. Please read their posts
carefully to see the point of agreement.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution is a form of showing courtesy.
It is much more than that. Attribution is important
because:

1. It is quintessentially the practice of intellectual
honesty.

2. It allows us to verify the accuracy, validity and
credibility of the information presented.

3. It enables cross-referencing of information, and
promotes further reading of the subject in the right
direction.

4. It provides a historical context to the ideas
presented.

5. Proper attribution discourages perpetuation of
urban legends, and political and ideological
propaganda.

Cheers,

Santosh
allwyntc
2007-04-01 19:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
How can you disassociate the two? Copyright law is based on proof of
plagiarism. On a medical research level it is like ignoring the side
effects of a "miracle" drug. [Side jab: Oh, I forgot, medical
researchers conveniently forget to do this part of their homework,
anyway :-]

I am not defending plagiarism. Its perpetrators needs to be fittingly
rebuked with punishment that fits the crime. However, I contend that
plagiarism is not a chronic problem because it is easily moderated by
peer review. For someone to succeed they have to make original
contributions. Plagiarism can only take them that far before they
crumble under their own weight (food they have eaten but not digested,
so to speak).

It's evil counterpart, copyright law, however, is sinister and could
have long lasting effects because it has the backing of law
enforcement. Moreover, as there is so much evidence, this "law" can
so easily be abused by the rich and powerful to make them even more
rich and more powerful.

Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress. It's
perpetrators, not having made any original contribution, have at least
not deterred others from doing so (unless they also try to
illegitimately copyright the work, which then becomes exactly the
problem of copyrighting).

Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. "No, you cannot use my MP3 algorithm in your code base
without first letting me have your firstborn offspring". The point
here is not whether or not they have the right, as per the law, to the
firstborn offspring. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.

Imagine a world in the stone ages where the first people who
discovered the first few rudimentary useful properties of the wheel
copyrighted the concept and everyone who used this concept in any
subsequent development had to pay them a cut.

Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.

To summarize, you cannot talk about the problems of plagiarism without
also talking about the problems of copyright law. I commend efforts
to seek alternatives to copyrighting and make their usage more
prevalent. Looks like there was a win-win between FN and Santosh with
the photo CD. Here's to more of that.

For those who wish to see the debate purely from the perspective of
academic research, remember the words of the famous philosopher,
Anonymous -- "The difference between theory and practice, in practice,
is greater than the difference between theory and practice, in
theory".

Keep in touch.
Allwyn.
Carvalho
2007-04-02 06:00:29 UTC
Permalink
"The ambulance siren was blaring across the crowded
lanes and not one car of humanity moved to make way
for the man or woman or child battling for their
life".

"The man driving in the car had on his lap, a small
child wedged between himself and the steering wheel".

"Under the bridge was a gang of children ranging from
possibly two to ten. They were playing unsupervised as
is the norm. It was a mock fight, perhaps an enactment
of some scene the older children had seen in a
Bollywood movie. This innocence, did not temper its
viciousness. The younger children received repeated
kicks and blows. As a mother my heart solidified into
a thick clump of clay. What if a mother returned to
find her own child lying dead? How many of these
children would survive into adulthood? How many of
them would survive the physical and emotional
vengeance of their youth?".

Perhaps in the larger scheme of things, these
instances will seem trivial. Not important given the
magnitude of more urgent matters, like poverty and
corrupt governments. And yet, they are important. They
are subtle indicators of how the moral Zeitgeist of
Goa is formed. Of the values that are important to us,
and values we will shape in generations to come.

Richard Dawkins writes, "in a society there exists a
somewhat mysterious consensus, which changes over the
decades, and for which it is not pretentious to use
the German loan-word Zeitgeist.....It spreads itself
from mind to mind through conversations in bars and at
dinner parties, through books and book reviews,
through newspapers and broadcasting, and nowadays
through the Internet".

Is the moral Zeitgeist in Goa stunted? Is it to be
defined purely in terms of the resources available to
us? Is our lack of visionary leaders and role models
gnawing away at our ability to move our morality
forward? And indeed morality is precisely the word we
should use. We don't live in a world where morality is
defined purely by larger moral dilemmas like killing
or adultery. Our morality also includes the mundane.
It deals with day-to-day issues such as how we protect
our children, of not driving while drunk, of not
littering on beaches, or not killing near-extinct
animals, of not stealing company time, of not asking
for bribes.

The moral Zeitgeist of Goa, we have move this looming
spirit of the times into the 21st century through
education and dialogue and vision. We have to become
more conscious of how the world around us is changing,
moving ahead and we have to fall in step with it, if
we are not to be left behind.

selma






____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
Sunith D Velho
2007-04-01 13:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Furthermore, like a true gentlemen, he hasn't taken personal
potshots at >>anyone on the forum in order to do so. I find that far
more offensive than
plagiarism.
Good to see you set different standards for Frederick and yourself.
I'll resist the tempation to respond to your personal potshots.

Sunith
--
Sunith D Velho
sunith.velho at kcl.ac.uk
Santosh Helekar
2007-04-01 17:41:07 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution and copyright violations are not
necessarily linked. We are confusing issues here. The
two do not necessarily go together.
Good! You have finally realized that you were
confusing those two separate issues. That was exactly
my point all along, and that of Basilio, Jose, Bosco,
Cecil, Sunith and George. Please read their posts
carefully to see the point of agreement.
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Attribution is a form of showing courtesy.
It is much more than that. Attribution is important
because:

1. It is quintessentially the practice of intellectual
honesty.

2. It allows us to verify the accuracy, validity and
credibility of the information presented.

3. It enables cross-referencing of information, and
promotes further reading of the subject in the right
direction.

4. It provides a historical context to the ideas
presented.

5. Proper attribution discourages perpetuation of
urban legends, and political and ideological
propaganda.

Cheers,

Santosh
allwyntc
2007-04-01 19:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
I don't know how it underlines Frederick's point. I
think it underlines the opposite point - that of
Basilio, Jose, Bosco, Cecil, Sunith, George and me -
that proper acknowledgment does not preclude free
sharing of creative content. That simple attribution
can be completely dissociated from copyright and
copyright law.
How can you disassociate the two? Copyright law is based on proof of
plagiarism. On a medical research level it is like ignoring the side
effects of a "miracle" drug. [Side jab: Oh, I forgot, medical
researchers conveniently forget to do this part of their homework,
anyway :-]

I am not defending plagiarism. Its perpetrators needs to be fittingly
rebuked with punishment that fits the crime. However, I contend that
plagiarism is not a chronic problem because it is easily moderated by
peer review. For someone to succeed they have to make original
contributions. Plagiarism can only take them that far before they
crumble under their own weight (food they have eaten but not digested,
so to speak).

It's evil counterpart, copyright law, however, is sinister and could
have long lasting effects because it has the backing of law
enforcement. Moreover, as there is so much evidence, this "law" can
so easily be abused by the rich and powerful to make them even more
rich and more powerful.

Lastly, and this is my most important point, I contend that plagiarism
at an academic level has not stunted research and progress. It's
perpetrators, not having made any original contribution, have at least
not deterred others from doing so (unless they also try to
illegitimately copyright the work, which then becomes exactly the
problem of copyrighting).

Copyright law, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a deterrent to
progress. "No, you cannot use my MP3 algorithm in your code base
without first letting me have your firstborn offspring". The point
here is not whether or not they have the right, as per the law, to the
firstborn offspring. The point is that it stunts research and
progress because it is a deterrent to young companies, without
financial or legal muscle, to even try.

Imagine a world in the stone ages where the first people who
discovered the first few rudimentary useful properties of the wheel
copyrighted the concept and everyone who used this concept in any
subsequent development had to pay them a cut.

Similarly, if TCP/IP, arguably today's networking "wheel", was
copyrighted you and I may not have been having this discussion via
this medium.

To summarize, you cannot talk about the problems of plagiarism without
also talking about the problems of copyright law. I commend efforts
to seek alternatives to copyrighting and make their usage more
prevalent. Looks like there was a win-win between FN and Santosh with
the photo CD. Here's to more of that.

For those who wish to see the debate purely from the perspective of
academic research, remember the words of the famous philosopher,
Anonymous -- "The difference between theory and practice, in practice,
is greater than the difference between theory and practice, in
theory".

Keep in touch.
Allwyn.
Carvalho
2007-04-02 06:00:29 UTC
Permalink
"The ambulance siren was blaring across the crowded
lanes and not one car of humanity moved to make way
for the man or woman or child battling for their
life".

"The man driving in the car had on his lap, a small
child wedged between himself and the steering wheel".

"Under the bridge was a gang of children ranging from
possibly two to ten. They were playing unsupervised as
is the norm. It was a mock fight, perhaps an enactment
of some scene the older children had seen in a
Bollywood movie. This innocence, did not temper its
viciousness. The younger children received repeated
kicks and blows. As a mother my heart solidified into
a thick clump of clay. What if a mother returned to
find her own child lying dead? How many of these
children would survive into adulthood? How many of
them would survive the physical and emotional
vengeance of their youth?".

Perhaps in the larger scheme of things, these
instances will seem trivial. Not important given the
magnitude of more urgent matters, like poverty and
corrupt governments. And yet, they are important. They
are subtle indicators of how the moral Zeitgeist of
Goa is formed. Of the values that are important to us,
and values we will shape in generations to come.

Richard Dawkins writes, "in a society there exists a
somewhat mysterious consensus, which changes over the
decades, and for which it is not pretentious to use
the German loan-word Zeitgeist.....It spreads itself
from mind to mind through conversations in bars and at
dinner parties, through books and book reviews,
through newspapers and broadcasting, and nowadays
through the Internet".

Is the moral Zeitgeist in Goa stunted? Is it to be
defined purely in terms of the resources available to
us? Is our lack of visionary leaders and role models
gnawing away at our ability to move our morality
forward? And indeed morality is precisely the word we
should use. We don't live in a world where morality is
defined purely by larger moral dilemmas like killing
or adultery. Our morality also includes the mundane.
It deals with day-to-day issues such as how we protect
our children, of not driving while drunk, of not
littering on beaches, or not killing near-extinct
animals, of not stealing company time, of not asking
for bribes.

The moral Zeitgeist of Goa, we have move this looming
spirit of the times into the 21st century through
education and dialogue and vision. We have to become
more conscious of how the world around us is changing,
moving ahead and we have to fall in step with it, if
we are not to be left behind.

selma






____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather

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