Discussion:
From one RG to another an open letter.
(too old to reply)
Tony de Sa
2010-01-13 08:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Dear Brother and Sister R G's.

It is a common perception among NRGs, that :

1. Each and every one of our RGs is a good-for-nothing waiting only for a
hand out from the NRG brothers and sisters and waiting with an open mouth
for the next visa to fall from their NRG relations.
2. Goa is a mess and that we are incapable of doing anything about it. But
they forget, that it is we and only we that can effectively change what is
happening in Goa. They can only preach and give us advice which is based on
their own frame of reference which no longer holds validity in the reality
of Goa today.
3. So Goa is corrupt. So Goa has open cast mines. America has no corruption?
Nor Britain, nor France, nor Germany, nor Australia? So you my dear NRG
friends will have me and my other gullible brothers believe that these
countries are pristine. Of course you have corruption but it is guised in a
semblance of legality like the CEO of a company (I think it was Lehman Bros)
who took millions just to liquidate the company. And no, there is no Mafia -
these hoods belong to backward countries like India and in particular the
state of Goa. There is no open cast mining? What about the rape of the land
in the American coal mines? What about the human tragedy that we read about?
And what about the destruction to the environment that has been caused by
the west. Our NRG irmaoes endorse these things - after all the West can do
no wrong. What about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even when
the Americans knew that the Japanese were losing the war - that was
perfectly
4.We can only be saved by the advice rather the 'pontificating' of some NRGs
from their comfort zones.
5. Please don't call foren Goans 'bootlickers' it hurts their pride,Use
'toadies' or some such term.
6. Please don't remind the NRGs - at least those who pontificate on Goanet
that they are 'second class' citizens of their newly acquired nationalities
7. Please remind the NRGs that they are free to go walkabout in Harlem,
Soho, etc whenever they feel like. It is perfectly safe.
8. Please don't ever tell them, 'Mid pleasures and palaces though we may
roam,Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home;'
--
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-13 17:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:18:35 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>

1. Each and every one of our RGs is a good-for-nothing waiting only for a
hand out from the NRG brothers and sisters and waiting with an open mouth
for the next visa to fall from their NRG relations.

Mario responds:

Poppycock. There are many good RGs doing their best and offering positive and constructive solutions for Goa, like Floriano and Venita for example. Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the corruption and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and energy and deflecting attention from what needs to be done.

Tony writes:

2. Goa is a mess and that we are incapable of doing anything about it. But
they forget, that it is we and only we that can effectively change what is
happening in Goa. They can only preach and give us advice which is based on
their own frame of reference which no longer holds validity in the reality
of Goa today.

Mario responds:

Yes and no. Yes, it is true that you RGs and "deshi" NRGs have shown yourselves incapable of doing anything about the mess in Goa. If you had been capable, we wouldn't be having this discussion now, would we?

No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms of time and money.

Yes, we can give you advice based on what we have seen work in other countries, which is mostly based on common sense.

No, you are wrong that it does not hold validity in the reality of Goa today, assuming that there is still something called common sense left in Goa.

I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying desperately to drag them backwards.

Tony wrote:

America has no corruption? Nor Britain, nor France, nor Germany, nor Australia? So you my dear NRG friends will have me and my other gullible brothers believe that these countries are pristine. Of course you have corruption but it is guised in a semblance of legality like the CEO of a company (I think it was Lehman Bros) who took millions just to liquidate the company.

Mario responds:

There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice. Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in proper context.

Tony wrote:

What about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even when
the Americans knew that the Japanese were losing the war -

Mario responds:

This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese, who started the war for the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without warning, refused to surrender before and after the bombing of Hiroshima, and only surrendered after the second bombing of Nagasaki.

Because of how the Japanese had fought before that, the estimates of the casualties on the Allied side to finish the war by physically attacking Japan was considered too high. In a war the objective is to kill the enemy while minimizing casualties among your own people. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought a brutal four year war to a screeching halt in just four days, unfortunately at an estimated cost of some 200,000 enemy casualties, all of which could have been avoided if the Japanese had surrendered before then.

Tony wrote:

4. We can only be saved by the advice rather the 'pontificating' of some NRGs from their comfort zones.

Mario responds:

If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen, Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time.

Tony wrote:

5. Please don't call foren Goans 'bootlickers' it hurts their pride,Use
'toadies' or some such term.

Mario responds:

You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren" boots like the RG's did before 1961.

I don't know much about Europe or Blighty or the Gulf, but in America, it is the boots of the Indians that are being licked, while what the Indians are licking is much more fun, if you know what I mean:-))

Tony wrote:

6. Please don't remind the NRGs - at least those who pontificate on Goanet
that they are 'second class' citizens of their newly acquired nationalities

Mario responds:

Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being Japanese and Filipinos. We even have a very popular and successful Governor of an American state from our community. So, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose when they give you tangible suggestions trying to help you.

Tony wrote:

7. Please remind the NRGs that they are free to go walkabout in Harlem,
Soho, etc whenever they feel like. It is perfectly safe.

Mario responds:

Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-))

Tony wrote:

8. Please don't ever tell them, 'Mid pleasures and palaces though we may
roam, Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home;'

Mario responds:

Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct. There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the mess.
floriano
2010-01-13 19:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Mario,
Incidentally, you have identified both Moidekars [who are also known for
their pixeapona] to a third Moidekar
I am told that 3 is crowd
:)

Whatever happened to the rest of RG Goans???

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896

PS: Sometimes Pixo gets the cake. This has been proved when Moira Church got
its most sonorous Bell in the auction because a Xanno Moidekar (not the
UK'ite) wore a kasti and started besting the bets to the consternation of
rank Batkars in suits boots and ties. It is also believed that this Pixo
Moidekar coolly called for his valet after the auction who handed back to
him his suit boot and tie
:)

PPS: Goa's Need of the Hour...............What's Zat?? ...........
Continuos pealing of Moira Church Bell to wake up RG Goans???


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario Goveia" <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:10 PM
Subject: [Goanet] From one RG to another an open letter.
Post by Mario Goveia
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:18:35 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
There are many good RGs doing their best and offering positive and
constructive solutions for Goa, like Floriano and Venita for example
floriano
2010-01-13 19:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Mario,
Incidentally, you have identified both Moidekars [who are also known for
their pixeapona] to a third Moidekar
I am told that 3 is crowd
:)

Whatever happened to the rest of RG Goans???

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896

PS: Sometimes Pixo gets the cake. This has been proved when Moira Church got
its most sonorous Bell in the auction because a Xanno Moidekar (not the
UK'ite) wore a kasti and started besting the bets to the consternation of
rank Batkars in suits boots and ties. It is also believed that this Pixo
Moidekar coolly called for his valet after the auction who handed back to
him his suit boot and tie
:)

PPS: Goa's Need of the Hour...............What's Zat?? ...........
Continuos pealing of Moira Church Bell to wake up RG Goans???


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario Goveia" <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:10 PM
Subject: [Goanet] From one RG to another an open letter.
Post by Mario Goveia
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:18:35 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
There are many good RGs doing their best and offering positive and
constructive solutions for Goa, like Floriano and Venita for example
floriano
2010-01-13 19:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Mario,
Incidentally, you have identified both Moidekars [who are also known for
their pixeapona] to a third Moidekar
I am told that 3 is crowd
:)

Whatever happened to the rest of RG Goans???

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896

PS: Sometimes Pixo gets the cake. This has been proved when Moira Church got
its most sonorous Bell in the auction because a Xanno Moidekar (not the
UK'ite) wore a kasti and started besting the bets to the consternation of
rank Batkars in suits boots and ties. It is also believed that this Pixo
Moidekar coolly called for his valet after the auction who handed back to
him his suit boot and tie
:)

PPS: Goa's Need of the Hour...............What's Zat?? ...........
Continuos pealing of Moira Church Bell to wake up RG Goans???


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario Goveia" <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:10 PM
Subject: [Goanet] From one RG to another an open letter.
Post by Mario Goveia
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:18:35 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
There are many good RGs doing their best and offering positive and
constructive solutions for Goa, like Floriano and Venita for example
floriano
2010-01-13 19:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Mario,
Incidentally, you have identified both Moidekars [who are also known for
their pixeapona] to a third Moidekar
I am told that 3 is crowd
:)

Whatever happened to the rest of RG Goans???

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896

PS: Sometimes Pixo gets the cake. This has been proved when Moira Church got
its most sonorous Bell in the auction because a Xanno Moidekar (not the
UK'ite) wore a kasti and started besting the bets to the consternation of
rank Batkars in suits boots and ties. It is also believed that this Pixo
Moidekar coolly called for his valet after the auction who handed back to
him his suit boot and tie
:)

PPS: Goa's Need of the Hour...............What's Zat?? ...........
Continuos pealing of Moira Church Bell to wake up RG Goans???


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario Goveia" <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:10 PM
Subject: [Goanet] From one RG to another an open letter.
Post by Mario Goveia
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:18:35 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
There are many good RGs doing their best and offering positive and
constructive solutions for Goa, like Floriano and Venita for example
floriano
2010-01-13 19:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Mario,
Incidentally, you have identified both Moidekars [who are also known for
their pixeapona] to a third Moidekar
I am told that 3 is crowd
:)

Whatever happened to the rest of RG Goans???

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896

PS: Sometimes Pixo gets the cake. This has been proved when Moira Church got
its most sonorous Bell in the auction because a Xanno Moidekar (not the
UK'ite) wore a kasti and started besting the bets to the consternation of
rank Batkars in suits boots and ties. It is also believed that this Pixo
Moidekar coolly called for his valet after the auction who handed back to
him his suit boot and tie
:)

PPS: Goa's Need of the Hour...............What's Zat?? ...........
Continuos pealing of Moira Church Bell to wake up RG Goans???


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario Goveia" <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:10 PM
Subject: [Goanet] From one RG to another an open letter.
Post by Mario Goveia
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:18:35 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
There are many good RGs doing their best and offering positive and
constructive solutions for Goa, like Floriano and Venita for example
floriano
2010-01-13 19:19:50 UTC
Permalink
Mario,
Incidentally, you have identified both Moidekars [who are also known for
their pixeapona] to a third Moidekar
I am told that 3 is crowd
:)

Whatever happened to the rest of RG Goans???

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896

PS: Sometimes Pixo gets the cake. This has been proved when Moira Church got
its most sonorous Bell in the auction because a Xanno Moidekar (not the
UK'ite) wore a kasti and started besting the bets to the consternation of
rank Batkars in suits boots and ties. It is also believed that this Pixo
Moidekar coolly called for his valet after the auction who handed back to
him his suit boot and tie
:)

PPS: Goa's Need of the Hour...............What's Zat?? ...........
Continuos pealing of Moira Church Bell to wake up RG Goans???


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario Goveia" <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:10 PM
Subject: [Goanet] From one RG to another an open letter.
Post by Mario Goveia
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:18:35 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
There are many good RGs doing their best and offering positive and
constructive solutions for Goa, like Floriano and Venita for example
Tony de Sa
2010-01-14 06:12:45 UTC
Permalink
@Mario

Quote: Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers
who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the corruption
and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and energy and
deflecting attention from what needs to be done.Unquote

Response: No all NRGs are not a problem - only those who think most
self-conceitedly that they are the repositories of sanity and wisdom, blah,
blah, blah on Goanet and strew their free advice freely.
If we RGs are wasting our energy and time, isn't that our business and
prerogative? What is the NRGs perception of what needs to be done is not
necessarily our perception. And don't the NRGs contribute to a fair share of
the corruption? Take the guy from his overseas home who comes on a two week
holiday to Goa. He suddenly discovers that the old homestead is now worth a
bundle and he needs to dispose of it! He is in a rush - so much to do, so
little time. So he toodles off to his friendly Talathi/ Panchayat Secretary/
Mamlatdar and quietly slips him Rs. 10, 000/- After all what is 200 odd
Amriki dollars? Now who is promoting corruption.

Quote: No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George
Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already
demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin
Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to
light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms
of time and money. Unquote

Do you selectively read posts? Haven't I commended doers like George Pinto
in my previous post when I mentioned adnauseam that if you love Goa,
translate your words into action and don't mealy mouth unwanted,
condescending advice to the RGs. Unless NRGs have the power of the vote and
in substantial quantity, voting patterns will follow traditional lines. We
are the voters. Non-national NRGs cannot change this.

Quote: I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was
going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and
waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming
rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families
were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new
leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough
credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while
knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get
the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in
just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying
desperately to drag them back Unquote

Manmohan and Sonia are hardly NRIs in the context of this discussion? Pretty
dumb if you think so. So also you prove my point that only RIs and RGs can
make an effective change.


Quote: There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have
listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when
corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice.
Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if
it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in
proper context.Unquote

You miss the point that India, and by implication Goa has a rule of law. In
India if you are caught, you are penalized after due processes of law. Even
Kasab accused of heinous crimes against the nation has a trial. How many of
the KKKlaners gave poor Negros the benefit of a fair trial? Or the Injuns?
Remember, the only good Injun is a dead Injun.

Quote: This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor
Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties
at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese, who started the war for the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without
warning, refused to surrender before and after the bombing of Hiroshima, and
only surrendered after the second bombing of Nagasaki.

Because of how the Japanese had fought before that, the estimates of the
casualties on the Allied side to finish the war by physically attacking
Japan was considered too high. In a war the objective is to kill the enemy
while minimizing casualties among your own people. The bombings of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought a brutal four year war to a screeching halt
in just four days, unfortunately at an estimated cost of some 200,000 enemy
casualties, all of which could have been avoided if the Japanese had
surrendered before then unquote

Utter kibosh. This is all American propaganda. History is written by the
victors. The Americans just wanted to evaluate the atomic bomb in a field
trial.

Quote: If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs
can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen,
Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time. Unquote

Have we RGs prevented you from going back to your comfort zones? Certainly,
Rajan, Carmen and Arwin have better use of their time and they spend part of
it on Goanet. And since when has Rajan or Arwin or Carmen for that matter
appointed you their spokesman.

Quote: You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren"
boots like the RG's did before 1961.Unquote

You make a sweeping generalization. Not all RGs were bootlickers. You insult
us NRGs. How would you like it if I said all NRGs lick white boots?

Quote: Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak
for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent
communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being
Japanese and Filipinos. We even have a very popular and successful Governor
of an American state from our community. So, you have everything to gain
and nothing to lose when they give you tangible suggestions trying to help
you. Unquote

That may be. But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian
just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not
be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no
matter how you console yourself.

Quote: Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe
in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-)) unquote.

Bill Clinton may be safe in Harlem or Bronx or Central Park. But then he is
Bill Clinton the husband of Secretary of State Hillary with oodles of Black
cat/ z class or what ever goes for FBI security. But is Mario Gouveia? Come
clean.

Quote: Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct.
There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need
every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the
mess.Unquote.

I am glad that for once you agree with me. There is no place like the
quote"mess" unquote that is Goa and despite the "corruption" and all its
irritants. Unfortunately, the type of help that you are offering - carping,
cribbing and grumbling about Goa is what we can do without. Help like that
from Rajan Parrikar, George Pinto, Arwin Mesquita and countless others who
try to do their best with positive inputs is what we will always appreciate
and applaud. Do gooders who only spout platitudes is what we can do without.
--
\\\
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-14 17:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:

Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers
who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the
corruption and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and
energy and deflecting attention from what needs to be done.

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:42:45 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>

No all NRGs are not a problem - only those who think most self-conceitedly that they are the repositories of sanity and wisdom, blah, blah, blah on Goanet and strew their free advice freely.

Mario responds:

Tony, you are not getting it. To begin with, I did not say you said that "all" NRGs are a problem. You and Samir apparently think the NRGs who are trying to help Goa are a bigger problem than the corruption and mess in Goa.

If you RGs knew what the heck you were doing, we would not even be having this discussion. All NRGs could have come to Goa and had a good time, which I still do, instead of wasting their time and energy and money like Rajan, Carmen, George, Arwin, etc.

Tony wrote:

If we RGs are wasting our energy and time, isn't that our business and
prerogative? What is the NRGs perception of what needs to be done is not
necessarily our perception.

Mario responds:

Yes, it is your prerogative to go back to sleep and allow the mess to grow. On the other hand, it is the prerogative of the NRGs who are motivated to try and help change things for the better, sometimes based on their experiences in countries that are much better managed, sometimes by simply using common sense that seems to have eluded so many RGs.

Tony wrote:

And don't the NRGs contribute to a fair share of the corruption? Take the guy from his overseas home who comes on a two week holiday to Goa. He suddenly discovers that the old homestead is now worth a bundle and he needs to dispose of it! He is in a rush - so much to do, so little time. So he toodles off to his friendly Talathi/Panchayat Secretary/Mamlatdar and quietly slips him Rs. 10,000/- After all what is 200 odd Amriki dollars? Now who is promoting corruption.

Mario responds:

Are individuals selling their property the corruption that is making a mess in Goa, or what the buyers are then doing with the property, which is where you RGs have been asleep at the switch?

Mario previously wrote:

No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George
Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already
demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin
Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to
light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms of time and money.

Tony replied:

Do you selectively read posts? Haven't I commended doers like George Pinto
in my previous post when I mentioned adnauseam that if you love Goa,
translate your words into action and don't mealy mouth unwanted,
condescending advice to the RGs. Unless NRGs have the power of the vote and
in substantial quantity, voting patterns will follow traditional lines. We
are the voters. Non-national NRGs cannot change this.

Mario responds:

So, I see that you selectively commend NRGs whom you like. I guess you think Rajan, Carmen, Arwin, Anil, etc. are spending their precious time and money because they don't love Goa, and just want to show the Goan peasants how smart they are. I don't think you know these people. No one who lives in "foren" wastes their time and money carelessly.

But, you have finally put your finger on the problem. It is you RG voters who are the primary problem, which is what I have been saying all along. Nothing is going to seriously change until you stop electing and re-electing corrupt politicians. Even a few to start with would be good.

Mario previously wrote:

I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was
going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and
waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming
rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough
credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while
knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get
the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in
just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying desperately to drag them back.

Tony replied:

Manmohan and Sonia are hardly NRIs in the context of this discussion? Pretty dumb if you think so. So also you prove my point that only RIs and RGs can make an effective change.

Mario responds:

Tony, let go of that bull's shempdi or you will hurt yourself:-))

The point I was making was that:

a) India was a mess because of Nehru's socialist policies that resulted in mindless bureaucracy and corruption like bribery, tax evasion and black money, and resources wasted in government run industries for 50 years since independence.

b) People of good will and common sense like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi have turned things around quite quickly, even though the residual bureaucracy and communist coalition partners are slowing them down.

c) Manmohan is smart enough that he takes all kinds of advice from NRIs and even pushed through the OCI that gives Samir heartburn to encourage NRIs to participate in improving India.

c) Goa can change too if you elect a few people with good will and common sense like local versions of Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi.

Mario previously wrote:

There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have
listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when
corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice.
Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if
it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in
proper context.

Tony replied:

You miss the point that India, and by implication Goa has a rule of law. In
India if you are caught, you are penalized after due processes of law. Even
Kasab accused of heinous crimes against the nation has a trial. How many of
the KKKlaners gave poor Negros the benefit of a fair trial? Or the Injuns?
Remember, the only good Injun is a dead Injun.

Mario responds:

Tony, you need to stop reading western novels. The KKK was like a white version of the RSS. They never had any government or legal power and are effectively out of business. There are plenty of good Injuns around who are not dead.

If you had any kind of effective legal system in Goa why is there so much bribery and corruption going on? You yourself gave an example of bribery. Your friend George Pinto describes anything he doesn't like in Goa as "illegal".

Mario previously wrote:

This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Tony replied:

Utter kibosh. This is all American propaganda. History is written by the
victors. The Americans just wanted to evaluate the atomic bomb in a field
trial.

Mario responds:

In that case, I get to write the history. It was a pretty effective field trial, wasn't it? Stopped a four year war in four days and saved a lot of lives on our side. Unfortunately it took the intransigence of the Japanese leaders and two bombs to get it through their heads that they were toast. They could have saved lots of lives if they had not attacked Pearl Harbor in the first place.

Mario previously wrote:

If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs
can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen,
Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time.

Tony replied:

Have we RGs prevented you from going back to your comfort zones? Certainly,
Rajan, Carmen and Arwin have better use of their time and they spend part of it on Goanet. And since when has Rajan or Arwin or Carmen for that matter appointed you their spokesman.

Mario responds:

To begin with, I am the lone voice on Goanet for reason, truth and peace. Secondly, they are going to get a bill for these services:-))

Mario previously wrote:

You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren"
boots like the RG's did before 1961.

Tony replied:

You make a sweeping generalization. Not all RGs were bootlickers. You insult us NRGs. How would you like it if I said all NRGs lick white boots?

Mario responds:

You are correct. Only those who were Portuguese stooges were the boot lickers. What was I thinking? Some of my own relatives were freedom fighters. My whole family were warned not to go to Goa until it was cleared of colonist vermin.

The non-American NRGs can speak for themselves. All I know is that the boots of Indian-Americans are in great demand by bootlickers in America.

Mario previously wrote:

Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak
for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent
communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being
Japanese and Filipinos.

Tony replied:

That may be. But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no matter how you console yourself.

Mario responds:

Once again, the Brits, Australians and Canadians can speak for themselves, but dark skinned Indians live in the most affluent areas in every part of America. There is no such thing as a WASP-only locality in the US. It would be illegal for one thing. If you came here I could show you.

Mario previously wrote:

Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe
in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-))

Tony replied:

Bill Clinton may be safe in Harlem or Bronx or Central Park. But then he is
Bill Clinton the husband of Secretary of State Hillary with oodles of Black
cat/ z class or what ever goes for FBI security. But is Mario Gouveia? Come
clean.

Mario responds:

I always visit Harlem when I am in New York because some of the best music is to be found there. The brothers treat me like one of them because they want my business. Of course I could run into a druggie who needs a fix, but I have that same risk whenever I visit Goa, even in my own neighborhood of Miramar Beach, even with Babush as a neighbor:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct.
There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need
every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the
mess.

Tony replied:

I am glad that for once you agree with me. There is no place like the
quote"mess" unquote that is Goa and despite the "corruption" and all its
irritants. Unfortunately, the type of help that you are offering - carping,
cribbing and grumbling about Goa is what we can do without. Help like that
from Rajan Parrikar, George Pinto, Arwin Mesquita and countless others who
try to do their best with positive inputs is what we will always appreciate
and applaud. Do gooders who only spout platitudes is what we can do without.

Mario responds:

If by "carping, cribbing and grumbling" you mean reminding RGs of who was asleep while the mess was being made, and need to wake up, I plead guilty.

If by "carping, cribbing and grumbling" you mean getting you RGs to stop attacking NRGs for trying to wake you up after another long siesta after the CRZ protests, I plead guilty.

If you appreciate Rajan, Carmen, George, Arwin, Anil and others like them, then my work is done. I only got involved because you and Samir were inexplicably attacking NRGs for tring to help you.

Maybe, your next lengthy "sermao" should be addressed to Samir.
lyrawmn
2010-01-16 20:24:28 UTC
Permalink
--- On Wed, 1/13/10, Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote:
?
Post by Tony de Sa
But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian
just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not
be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no
matter how you console yourself.

I. Nunes questions:
?
After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa,? Mr. D'Sa?

Do you still maintain?First Class status, albeit a subjugated status?in your own land?
?
Further, and importantly, how do you reconcile the pervasive and corrosive caste system with your ideals of equality and opportunity for all Goans??
?

?
Tony de Sa
2010-01-17 17:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Exmo Sr. (Exma Sra?) I Nunes,

I am not sure whether I am adressing a gent or a lady as neither the name I
Nunes nor the email id reveal your sex, Not that I am sexist, but it would
be polite to address you with the appropriate salutation and your name with
the informality of email.
But I digress.
?
Post by lyrawmn
After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who
actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as
publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa,? Mr. D'Sa?

Do you still maintain?First Class status, albeit a subjugated status?in your
own land?
?
Further, and importantly, how do you reconcile the pervasive and corrosive
caste system with your ideals of equality and opportunity for all Goans??

What is under discussion in my post to which you have given this reply is
whether western countries as we call them are biased against Indians and
thereby goans and whether Indians/ Goans are second class citizens or not.
Please answer to the point and don't draw red herrings. The prevailing
status in Goa is not under question but you may start a separate thread and
I will answer your arguement appropriately.
Regards,
Tony
--
\\\
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-17 21:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:24:28 -0800 (PST)
From: lyrawmn <lyrawmn at yahoo.com>

After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa, Mr. D'Sa?

Mario observes:

Oh, I get it. Those WASP-only areas where Indians are not allowed to buy homes are actually in Goa!
Tony de Sa
2010-01-13 08:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Dear Brother and Sister R G's.

It is a common perception among NRGs, that :

1. Each and every one of our RGs is a good-for-nothing waiting only for a
hand out from the NRG brothers and sisters and waiting with an open mouth
for the next visa to fall from their NRG relations.
2. Goa is a mess and that we are incapable of doing anything about it. But
they forget, that it is we and only we that can effectively change what is
happening in Goa. They can only preach and give us advice which is based on
their own frame of reference which no longer holds validity in the reality
of Goa today.
3. So Goa is corrupt. So Goa has open cast mines. America has no corruption?
Nor Britain, nor France, nor Germany, nor Australia? So you my dear NRG
friends will have me and my other gullible brothers believe that these
countries are pristine. Of course you have corruption but it is guised in a
semblance of legality like the CEO of a company (I think it was Lehman Bros)
who took millions just to liquidate the company. And no, there is no Mafia -
these hoods belong to backward countries like India and in particular the
state of Goa. There is no open cast mining? What about the rape of the land
in the American coal mines? What about the human tragedy that we read about?
And what about the destruction to the environment that has been caused by
the west. Our NRG irmaoes endorse these things - after all the West can do
no wrong. What about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even when
the Americans knew that the Japanese were losing the war - that was
perfectly
4.We can only be saved by the advice rather the 'pontificating' of some NRGs
from their comfort zones.
5. Please don't call foren Goans 'bootlickers' it hurts their pride,Use
'toadies' or some such term.
6. Please don't remind the NRGs - at least those who pontificate on Goanet
that they are 'second class' citizens of their newly acquired nationalities
7. Please remind the NRGs that they are free to go walkabout in Harlem,
Soho, etc whenever they feel like. It is perfectly safe.
8. Please don't ever tell them, 'Mid pleasures and palaces though we may
roam,Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home;'
--
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-13 17:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:18:35 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>

1. Each and every one of our RGs is a good-for-nothing waiting only for a
hand out from the NRG brothers and sisters and waiting with an open mouth
for the next visa to fall from their NRG relations.

Mario responds:

Poppycock. There are many good RGs doing their best and offering positive and constructive solutions for Goa, like Floriano and Venita for example. Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the corruption and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and energy and deflecting attention from what needs to be done.

Tony writes:

2. Goa is a mess and that we are incapable of doing anything about it. But
they forget, that it is we and only we that can effectively change what is
happening in Goa. They can only preach and give us advice which is based on
their own frame of reference which no longer holds validity in the reality
of Goa today.

Mario responds:

Yes and no. Yes, it is true that you RGs and "deshi" NRGs have shown yourselves incapable of doing anything about the mess in Goa. If you had been capable, we wouldn't be having this discussion now, would we?

No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms of time and money.

Yes, we can give you advice based on what we have seen work in other countries, which is mostly based on common sense.

No, you are wrong that it does not hold validity in the reality of Goa today, assuming that there is still something called common sense left in Goa.

I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying desperately to drag them backwards.

Tony wrote:

America has no corruption? Nor Britain, nor France, nor Germany, nor Australia? So you my dear NRG friends will have me and my other gullible brothers believe that these countries are pristine. Of course you have corruption but it is guised in a semblance of legality like the CEO of a company (I think it was Lehman Bros) who took millions just to liquidate the company.

Mario responds:

There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice. Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in proper context.

Tony wrote:

What about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even when
the Americans knew that the Japanese were losing the war -

Mario responds:

This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese, who started the war for the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without warning, refused to surrender before and after the bombing of Hiroshima, and only surrendered after the second bombing of Nagasaki.

Because of how the Japanese had fought before that, the estimates of the casualties on the Allied side to finish the war by physically attacking Japan was considered too high. In a war the objective is to kill the enemy while minimizing casualties among your own people. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought a brutal four year war to a screeching halt in just four days, unfortunately at an estimated cost of some 200,000 enemy casualties, all of which could have been avoided if the Japanese had surrendered before then.

Tony wrote:

4. We can only be saved by the advice rather the 'pontificating' of some NRGs from their comfort zones.

Mario responds:

If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen, Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time.

Tony wrote:

5. Please don't call foren Goans 'bootlickers' it hurts their pride,Use
'toadies' or some such term.

Mario responds:

You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren" boots like the RG's did before 1961.

I don't know much about Europe or Blighty or the Gulf, but in America, it is the boots of the Indians that are being licked, while what the Indians are licking is much more fun, if you know what I mean:-))

Tony wrote:

6. Please don't remind the NRGs - at least those who pontificate on Goanet
that they are 'second class' citizens of their newly acquired nationalities

Mario responds:

Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being Japanese and Filipinos. We even have a very popular and successful Governor of an American state from our community. So, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose when they give you tangible suggestions trying to help you.

Tony wrote:

7. Please remind the NRGs that they are free to go walkabout in Harlem,
Soho, etc whenever they feel like. It is perfectly safe.

Mario responds:

Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-))

Tony wrote:

8. Please don't ever tell them, 'Mid pleasures and palaces though we may
roam, Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home;'

Mario responds:

Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct. There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the mess.
Tony de Sa
2010-01-14 06:12:45 UTC
Permalink
@Mario

Quote: Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers
who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the corruption
and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and energy and
deflecting attention from what needs to be done.Unquote

Response: No all NRGs are not a problem - only those who think most
self-conceitedly that they are the repositories of sanity and wisdom, blah,
blah, blah on Goanet and strew their free advice freely.
If we RGs are wasting our energy and time, isn't that our business and
prerogative? What is the NRGs perception of what needs to be done is not
necessarily our perception. And don't the NRGs contribute to a fair share of
the corruption? Take the guy from his overseas home who comes on a two week
holiday to Goa. He suddenly discovers that the old homestead is now worth a
bundle and he needs to dispose of it! He is in a rush - so much to do, so
little time. So he toodles off to his friendly Talathi/ Panchayat Secretary/
Mamlatdar and quietly slips him Rs. 10, 000/- After all what is 200 odd
Amriki dollars? Now who is promoting corruption.

Quote: No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George
Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already
demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin
Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to
light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms
of time and money. Unquote

Do you selectively read posts? Haven't I commended doers like George Pinto
in my previous post when I mentioned adnauseam that if you love Goa,
translate your words into action and don't mealy mouth unwanted,
condescending advice to the RGs. Unless NRGs have the power of the vote and
in substantial quantity, voting patterns will follow traditional lines. We
are the voters. Non-national NRGs cannot change this.

Quote: I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was
going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and
waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming
rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families
were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new
leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough
credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while
knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get
the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in
just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying
desperately to drag them back Unquote

Manmohan and Sonia are hardly NRIs in the context of this discussion? Pretty
dumb if you think so. So also you prove my point that only RIs and RGs can
make an effective change.


Quote: There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have
listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when
corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice.
Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if
it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in
proper context.Unquote

You miss the point that India, and by implication Goa has a rule of law. In
India if you are caught, you are penalized after due processes of law. Even
Kasab accused of heinous crimes against the nation has a trial. How many of
the KKKlaners gave poor Negros the benefit of a fair trial? Or the Injuns?
Remember, the only good Injun is a dead Injun.

Quote: This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor
Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties
at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese, who started the war for the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without
warning, refused to surrender before and after the bombing of Hiroshima, and
only surrendered after the second bombing of Nagasaki.

Because of how the Japanese had fought before that, the estimates of the
casualties on the Allied side to finish the war by physically attacking
Japan was considered too high. In a war the objective is to kill the enemy
while minimizing casualties among your own people. The bombings of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought a brutal four year war to a screeching halt
in just four days, unfortunately at an estimated cost of some 200,000 enemy
casualties, all of which could have been avoided if the Japanese had
surrendered before then unquote

Utter kibosh. This is all American propaganda. History is written by the
victors. The Americans just wanted to evaluate the atomic bomb in a field
trial.

Quote: If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs
can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen,
Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time. Unquote

Have we RGs prevented you from going back to your comfort zones? Certainly,
Rajan, Carmen and Arwin have better use of their time and they spend part of
it on Goanet. And since when has Rajan or Arwin or Carmen for that matter
appointed you their spokesman.

Quote: You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren"
boots like the RG's did before 1961.Unquote

You make a sweeping generalization. Not all RGs were bootlickers. You insult
us NRGs. How would you like it if I said all NRGs lick white boots?

Quote: Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak
for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent
communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being
Japanese and Filipinos. We even have a very popular and successful Governor
of an American state from our community. So, you have everything to gain
and nothing to lose when they give you tangible suggestions trying to help
you. Unquote

That may be. But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian
just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not
be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no
matter how you console yourself.

Quote: Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe
in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-)) unquote.

Bill Clinton may be safe in Harlem or Bronx or Central Park. But then he is
Bill Clinton the husband of Secretary of State Hillary with oodles of Black
cat/ z class or what ever goes for FBI security. But is Mario Gouveia? Come
clean.

Quote: Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct.
There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need
every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the
mess.Unquote.

I am glad that for once you agree with me. There is no place like the
quote"mess" unquote that is Goa and despite the "corruption" and all its
irritants. Unfortunately, the type of help that you are offering - carping,
cribbing and grumbling about Goa is what we can do without. Help like that
from Rajan Parrikar, George Pinto, Arwin Mesquita and countless others who
try to do their best with positive inputs is what we will always appreciate
and applaud. Do gooders who only spout platitudes is what we can do without.
--
\\\
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-14 17:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:

Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers
who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the
corruption and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and
energy and deflecting attention from what needs to be done.

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:42:45 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>

No all NRGs are not a problem - only those who think most self-conceitedly that they are the repositories of sanity and wisdom, blah, blah, blah on Goanet and strew their free advice freely.

Mario responds:

Tony, you are not getting it. To begin with, I did not say you said that "all" NRGs are a problem. You and Samir apparently think the NRGs who are trying to help Goa are a bigger problem than the corruption and mess in Goa.

If you RGs knew what the heck you were doing, we would not even be having this discussion. All NRGs could have come to Goa and had a good time, which I still do, instead of wasting their time and energy and money like Rajan, Carmen, George, Arwin, etc.

Tony wrote:

If we RGs are wasting our energy and time, isn't that our business and
prerogative? What is the NRGs perception of what needs to be done is not
necessarily our perception.

Mario responds:

Yes, it is your prerogative to go back to sleep and allow the mess to grow. On the other hand, it is the prerogative of the NRGs who are motivated to try and help change things for the better, sometimes based on their experiences in countries that are much better managed, sometimes by simply using common sense that seems to have eluded so many RGs.

Tony wrote:

And don't the NRGs contribute to a fair share of the corruption? Take the guy from his overseas home who comes on a two week holiday to Goa. He suddenly discovers that the old homestead is now worth a bundle and he needs to dispose of it! He is in a rush - so much to do, so little time. So he toodles off to his friendly Talathi/Panchayat Secretary/Mamlatdar and quietly slips him Rs. 10,000/- After all what is 200 odd Amriki dollars? Now who is promoting corruption.

Mario responds:

Are individuals selling their property the corruption that is making a mess in Goa, or what the buyers are then doing with the property, which is where you RGs have been asleep at the switch?

Mario previously wrote:

No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George
Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already
demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin
Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to
light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms of time and money.

Tony replied:

Do you selectively read posts? Haven't I commended doers like George Pinto
in my previous post when I mentioned adnauseam that if you love Goa,
translate your words into action and don't mealy mouth unwanted,
condescending advice to the RGs. Unless NRGs have the power of the vote and
in substantial quantity, voting patterns will follow traditional lines. We
are the voters. Non-national NRGs cannot change this.

Mario responds:

So, I see that you selectively commend NRGs whom you like. I guess you think Rajan, Carmen, Arwin, Anil, etc. are spending their precious time and money because they don't love Goa, and just want to show the Goan peasants how smart they are. I don't think you know these people. No one who lives in "foren" wastes their time and money carelessly.

But, you have finally put your finger on the problem. It is you RG voters who are the primary problem, which is what I have been saying all along. Nothing is going to seriously change until you stop electing and re-electing corrupt politicians. Even a few to start with would be good.

Mario previously wrote:

I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was
going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and
waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming
rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough
credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while
knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get
the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in
just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying desperately to drag them back.

Tony replied:

Manmohan and Sonia are hardly NRIs in the context of this discussion? Pretty dumb if you think so. So also you prove my point that only RIs and RGs can make an effective change.

Mario responds:

Tony, let go of that bull's shempdi or you will hurt yourself:-))

The point I was making was that:

a) India was a mess because of Nehru's socialist policies that resulted in mindless bureaucracy and corruption like bribery, tax evasion and black money, and resources wasted in government run industries for 50 years since independence.

b) People of good will and common sense like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi have turned things around quite quickly, even though the residual bureaucracy and communist coalition partners are slowing them down.

c) Manmohan is smart enough that he takes all kinds of advice from NRIs and even pushed through the OCI that gives Samir heartburn to encourage NRIs to participate in improving India.

c) Goa can change too if you elect a few people with good will and common sense like local versions of Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi.

Mario previously wrote:

There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have
listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when
corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice.
Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if
it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in
proper context.

Tony replied:

You miss the point that India, and by implication Goa has a rule of law. In
India if you are caught, you are penalized after due processes of law. Even
Kasab accused of heinous crimes against the nation has a trial. How many of
the KKKlaners gave poor Negros the benefit of a fair trial? Or the Injuns?
Remember, the only good Injun is a dead Injun.

Mario responds:

Tony, you need to stop reading western novels. The KKK was like a white version of the RSS. They never had any government or legal power and are effectively out of business. There are plenty of good Injuns around who are not dead.

If you had any kind of effective legal system in Goa why is there so much bribery and corruption going on? You yourself gave an example of bribery. Your friend George Pinto describes anything he doesn't like in Goa as "illegal".

Mario previously wrote:

This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Tony replied:

Utter kibosh. This is all American propaganda. History is written by the
victors. The Americans just wanted to evaluate the atomic bomb in a field
trial.

Mario responds:

In that case, I get to write the history. It was a pretty effective field trial, wasn't it? Stopped a four year war in four days and saved a lot of lives on our side. Unfortunately it took the intransigence of the Japanese leaders and two bombs to get it through their heads that they were toast. They could have saved lots of lives if they had not attacked Pearl Harbor in the first place.

Mario previously wrote:

If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs
can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen,
Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time.

Tony replied:

Have we RGs prevented you from going back to your comfort zones? Certainly,
Rajan, Carmen and Arwin have better use of their time and they spend part of it on Goanet. And since when has Rajan or Arwin or Carmen for that matter appointed you their spokesman.

Mario responds:

To begin with, I am the lone voice on Goanet for reason, truth and peace. Secondly, they are going to get a bill for these services:-))

Mario previously wrote:

You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren"
boots like the RG's did before 1961.

Tony replied:

You make a sweeping generalization. Not all RGs were bootlickers. You insult us NRGs. How would you like it if I said all NRGs lick white boots?

Mario responds:

You are correct. Only those who were Portuguese stooges were the boot lickers. What was I thinking? Some of my own relatives were freedom fighters. My whole family were warned not to go to Goa until it was cleared of colonist vermin.

The non-American NRGs can speak for themselves. All I know is that the boots of Indian-Americans are in great demand by bootlickers in America.

Mario previously wrote:

Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak
for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent
communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being
Japanese and Filipinos.

Tony replied:

That may be. But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no matter how you console yourself.

Mario responds:

Once again, the Brits, Australians and Canadians can speak for themselves, but dark skinned Indians live in the most affluent areas in every part of America. There is no such thing as a WASP-only locality in the US. It would be illegal for one thing. If you came here I could show you.

Mario previously wrote:

Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe
in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-))

Tony replied:

Bill Clinton may be safe in Harlem or Bronx or Central Park. But then he is
Bill Clinton the husband of Secretary of State Hillary with oodles of Black
cat/ z class or what ever goes for FBI security. But is Mario Gouveia? Come
clean.

Mario responds:

I always visit Harlem when I am in New York because some of the best music is to be found there. The brothers treat me like one of them because they want my business. Of course I could run into a druggie who needs a fix, but I have that same risk whenever I visit Goa, even in my own neighborhood of Miramar Beach, even with Babush as a neighbor:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct.
There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need
every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the
mess.

Tony replied:

I am glad that for once you agree with me. There is no place like the
quote"mess" unquote that is Goa and despite the "corruption" and all its
irritants. Unfortunately, the type of help that you are offering - carping,
cribbing and grumbling about Goa is what we can do without. Help like that
from Rajan Parrikar, George Pinto, Arwin Mesquita and countless others who
try to do their best with positive inputs is what we will always appreciate
and applaud. Do gooders who only spout platitudes is what we can do without.

Mario responds:

If by "carping, cribbing and grumbling" you mean reminding RGs of who was asleep while the mess was being made, and need to wake up, I plead guilty.

If by "carping, cribbing and grumbling" you mean getting you RGs to stop attacking NRGs for trying to wake you up after another long siesta after the CRZ protests, I plead guilty.

If you appreciate Rajan, Carmen, George, Arwin, Anil and others like them, then my work is done. I only got involved because you and Samir were inexplicably attacking NRGs for tring to help you.

Maybe, your next lengthy "sermao" should be addressed to Samir.
lyrawmn
2010-01-16 20:24:28 UTC
Permalink
--- On Wed, 1/13/10, Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote:
?
Post by Tony de Sa
But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian
just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not
be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no
matter how you console yourself.

I. Nunes questions:
?
After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa,? Mr. D'Sa?

Do you still maintain?First Class status, albeit a subjugated status?in your own land?
?
Further, and importantly, how do you reconcile the pervasive and corrosive caste system with your ideals of equality and opportunity for all Goans??
?

?
Tony de Sa
2010-01-17 17:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Exmo Sr. (Exma Sra?) I Nunes,

I am not sure whether I am adressing a gent or a lady as neither the name I
Nunes nor the email id reveal your sex, Not that I am sexist, but it would
be polite to address you with the appropriate salutation and your name with
the informality of email.
But I digress.
?
Post by lyrawmn
After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who
actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as
publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa,? Mr. D'Sa?

Do you still maintain?First Class status, albeit a subjugated status?in your
own land?
?
Further, and importantly, how do you reconcile the pervasive and corrosive
caste system with your ideals of equality and opportunity for all Goans??

What is under discussion in my post to which you have given this reply is
whether western countries as we call them are biased against Indians and
thereby goans and whether Indians/ Goans are second class citizens or not.
Please answer to the point and don't draw red herrings. The prevailing
status in Goa is not under question but you may start a separate thread and
I will answer your arguement appropriately.
Regards,
Tony
--
\\\
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-17 21:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:24:28 -0800 (PST)
From: lyrawmn <lyrawmn at yahoo.com>

After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa, Mr. D'Sa?

Mario observes:

Oh, I get it. Those WASP-only areas where Indians are not allowed to buy homes are actually in Goa!
Tony de Sa
2010-01-13 08:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Dear Brother and Sister R G's.

It is a common perception among NRGs, that :

1. Each and every one of our RGs is a good-for-nothing waiting only for a
hand out from the NRG brothers and sisters and waiting with an open mouth
for the next visa to fall from their NRG relations.
2. Goa is a mess and that we are incapable of doing anything about it. But
they forget, that it is we and only we that can effectively change what is
happening in Goa. They can only preach and give us advice which is based on
their own frame of reference which no longer holds validity in the reality
of Goa today.
3. So Goa is corrupt. So Goa has open cast mines. America has no corruption?
Nor Britain, nor France, nor Germany, nor Australia? So you my dear NRG
friends will have me and my other gullible brothers believe that these
countries are pristine. Of course you have corruption but it is guised in a
semblance of legality like the CEO of a company (I think it was Lehman Bros)
who took millions just to liquidate the company. And no, there is no Mafia -
these hoods belong to backward countries like India and in particular the
state of Goa. There is no open cast mining? What about the rape of the land
in the American coal mines? What about the human tragedy that we read about?
And what about the destruction to the environment that has been caused by
the west. Our NRG irmaoes endorse these things - after all the West can do
no wrong. What about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even when
the Americans knew that the Japanese were losing the war - that was
perfectly
4.We can only be saved by the advice rather the 'pontificating' of some NRGs
from their comfort zones.
5. Please don't call foren Goans 'bootlickers' it hurts their pride,Use
'toadies' or some such term.
6. Please don't remind the NRGs - at least those who pontificate on Goanet
that they are 'second class' citizens of their newly acquired nationalities
7. Please remind the NRGs that they are free to go walkabout in Harlem,
Soho, etc whenever they feel like. It is perfectly safe.
8. Please don't ever tell them, 'Mid pleasures and palaces though we may
roam,Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home;'
--
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-13 17:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:18:35 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>

1. Each and every one of our RGs is a good-for-nothing waiting only for a
hand out from the NRG brothers and sisters and waiting with an open mouth
for the next visa to fall from their NRG relations.

Mario responds:

Poppycock. There are many good RGs doing their best and offering positive and constructive solutions for Goa, like Floriano and Venita for example. Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the corruption and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and energy and deflecting attention from what needs to be done.

Tony writes:

2. Goa is a mess and that we are incapable of doing anything about it. But
they forget, that it is we and only we that can effectively change what is
happening in Goa. They can only preach and give us advice which is based on
their own frame of reference which no longer holds validity in the reality
of Goa today.

Mario responds:

Yes and no. Yes, it is true that you RGs and "deshi" NRGs have shown yourselves incapable of doing anything about the mess in Goa. If you had been capable, we wouldn't be having this discussion now, would we?

No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms of time and money.

Yes, we can give you advice based on what we have seen work in other countries, which is mostly based on common sense.

No, you are wrong that it does not hold validity in the reality of Goa today, assuming that there is still something called common sense left in Goa.

I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying desperately to drag them backwards.

Tony wrote:

America has no corruption? Nor Britain, nor France, nor Germany, nor Australia? So you my dear NRG friends will have me and my other gullible brothers believe that these countries are pristine. Of course you have corruption but it is guised in a semblance of legality like the CEO of a company (I think it was Lehman Bros) who took millions just to liquidate the company.

Mario responds:

There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice. Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in proper context.

Tony wrote:

What about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even when
the Americans knew that the Japanese were losing the war -

Mario responds:

This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese, who started the war for the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without warning, refused to surrender before and after the bombing of Hiroshima, and only surrendered after the second bombing of Nagasaki.

Because of how the Japanese had fought before that, the estimates of the casualties on the Allied side to finish the war by physically attacking Japan was considered too high. In a war the objective is to kill the enemy while minimizing casualties among your own people. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought a brutal four year war to a screeching halt in just four days, unfortunately at an estimated cost of some 200,000 enemy casualties, all of which could have been avoided if the Japanese had surrendered before then.

Tony wrote:

4. We can only be saved by the advice rather the 'pontificating' of some NRGs from their comfort zones.

Mario responds:

If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen, Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time.

Tony wrote:

5. Please don't call foren Goans 'bootlickers' it hurts their pride,Use
'toadies' or some such term.

Mario responds:

You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren" boots like the RG's did before 1961.

I don't know much about Europe or Blighty or the Gulf, but in America, it is the boots of the Indians that are being licked, while what the Indians are licking is much more fun, if you know what I mean:-))

Tony wrote:

6. Please don't remind the NRGs - at least those who pontificate on Goanet
that they are 'second class' citizens of their newly acquired nationalities

Mario responds:

Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being Japanese and Filipinos. We even have a very popular and successful Governor of an American state from our community. So, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose when they give you tangible suggestions trying to help you.

Tony wrote:

7. Please remind the NRGs that they are free to go walkabout in Harlem,
Soho, etc whenever they feel like. It is perfectly safe.

Mario responds:

Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-))

Tony wrote:

8. Please don't ever tell them, 'Mid pleasures and palaces though we may
roam, Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home;'

Mario responds:

Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct. There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the mess.
Tony de Sa
2010-01-14 06:12:45 UTC
Permalink
@Mario

Quote: Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers
who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the corruption
and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and energy and
deflecting attention from what needs to be done.Unquote

Response: No all NRGs are not a problem - only those who think most
self-conceitedly that they are the repositories of sanity and wisdom, blah,
blah, blah on Goanet and strew their free advice freely.
If we RGs are wasting our energy and time, isn't that our business and
prerogative? What is the NRGs perception of what needs to be done is not
necessarily our perception. And don't the NRGs contribute to a fair share of
the corruption? Take the guy from his overseas home who comes on a two week
holiday to Goa. He suddenly discovers that the old homestead is now worth a
bundle and he needs to dispose of it! He is in a rush - so much to do, so
little time. So he toodles off to his friendly Talathi/ Panchayat Secretary/
Mamlatdar and quietly slips him Rs. 10, 000/- After all what is 200 odd
Amriki dollars? Now who is promoting corruption.

Quote: No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George
Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already
demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin
Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to
light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms
of time and money. Unquote

Do you selectively read posts? Haven't I commended doers like George Pinto
in my previous post when I mentioned adnauseam that if you love Goa,
translate your words into action and don't mealy mouth unwanted,
condescending advice to the RGs. Unless NRGs have the power of the vote and
in substantial quantity, voting patterns will follow traditional lines. We
are the voters. Non-national NRGs cannot change this.

Quote: I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was
going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and
waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming
rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families
were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new
leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough
credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while
knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get
the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in
just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying
desperately to drag them back Unquote

Manmohan and Sonia are hardly NRIs in the context of this discussion? Pretty
dumb if you think so. So also you prove my point that only RIs and RGs can
make an effective change.


Quote: There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have
listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when
corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice.
Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if
it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in
proper context.Unquote

You miss the point that India, and by implication Goa has a rule of law. In
India if you are caught, you are penalized after due processes of law. Even
Kasab accused of heinous crimes against the nation has a trial. How many of
the KKKlaners gave poor Negros the benefit of a fair trial? Or the Injuns?
Remember, the only good Injun is a dead Injun.

Quote: This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor
Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties
at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese, who started the war for the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without
warning, refused to surrender before and after the bombing of Hiroshima, and
only surrendered after the second bombing of Nagasaki.

Because of how the Japanese had fought before that, the estimates of the
casualties on the Allied side to finish the war by physically attacking
Japan was considered too high. In a war the objective is to kill the enemy
while minimizing casualties among your own people. The bombings of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought a brutal four year war to a screeching halt
in just four days, unfortunately at an estimated cost of some 200,000 enemy
casualties, all of which could have been avoided if the Japanese had
surrendered before then unquote

Utter kibosh. This is all American propaganda. History is written by the
victors. The Americans just wanted to evaluate the atomic bomb in a field
trial.

Quote: If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs
can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen,
Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time. Unquote

Have we RGs prevented you from going back to your comfort zones? Certainly,
Rajan, Carmen and Arwin have better use of their time and they spend part of
it on Goanet. And since when has Rajan or Arwin or Carmen for that matter
appointed you their spokesman.

Quote: You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren"
boots like the RG's did before 1961.Unquote

You make a sweeping generalization. Not all RGs were bootlickers. You insult
us NRGs. How would you like it if I said all NRGs lick white boots?

Quote: Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak
for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent
communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being
Japanese and Filipinos. We even have a very popular and successful Governor
of an American state from our community. So, you have everything to gain
and nothing to lose when they give you tangible suggestions trying to help
you. Unquote

That may be. But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian
just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not
be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no
matter how you console yourself.

Quote: Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe
in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-)) unquote.

Bill Clinton may be safe in Harlem or Bronx or Central Park. But then he is
Bill Clinton the husband of Secretary of State Hillary with oodles of Black
cat/ z class or what ever goes for FBI security. But is Mario Gouveia? Come
clean.

Quote: Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct.
There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need
every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the
mess.Unquote.

I am glad that for once you agree with me. There is no place like the
quote"mess" unquote that is Goa and despite the "corruption" and all its
irritants. Unfortunately, the type of help that you are offering - carping,
cribbing and grumbling about Goa is what we can do without. Help like that
from Rajan Parrikar, George Pinto, Arwin Mesquita and countless others who
try to do their best with positive inputs is what we will always appreciate
and applaud. Do gooders who only spout platitudes is what we can do without.
--
\\\
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-14 17:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:

Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers
who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the
corruption and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and
energy and deflecting attention from what needs to be done.

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:42:45 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>

No all NRGs are not a problem - only those who think most self-conceitedly that they are the repositories of sanity and wisdom, blah, blah, blah on Goanet and strew their free advice freely.

Mario responds:

Tony, you are not getting it. To begin with, I did not say you said that "all" NRGs are a problem. You and Samir apparently think the NRGs who are trying to help Goa are a bigger problem than the corruption and mess in Goa.

If you RGs knew what the heck you were doing, we would not even be having this discussion. All NRGs could have come to Goa and had a good time, which I still do, instead of wasting their time and energy and money like Rajan, Carmen, George, Arwin, etc.

Tony wrote:

If we RGs are wasting our energy and time, isn't that our business and
prerogative? What is the NRGs perception of what needs to be done is not
necessarily our perception.

Mario responds:

Yes, it is your prerogative to go back to sleep and allow the mess to grow. On the other hand, it is the prerogative of the NRGs who are motivated to try and help change things for the better, sometimes based on their experiences in countries that are much better managed, sometimes by simply using common sense that seems to have eluded so many RGs.

Tony wrote:

And don't the NRGs contribute to a fair share of the corruption? Take the guy from his overseas home who comes on a two week holiday to Goa. He suddenly discovers that the old homestead is now worth a bundle and he needs to dispose of it! He is in a rush - so much to do, so little time. So he toodles off to his friendly Talathi/Panchayat Secretary/Mamlatdar and quietly slips him Rs. 10,000/- After all what is 200 odd Amriki dollars? Now who is promoting corruption.

Mario responds:

Are individuals selling their property the corruption that is making a mess in Goa, or what the buyers are then doing with the property, which is where you RGs have been asleep at the switch?

Mario previously wrote:

No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George
Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already
demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin
Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to
light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms of time and money.

Tony replied:

Do you selectively read posts? Haven't I commended doers like George Pinto
in my previous post when I mentioned adnauseam that if you love Goa,
translate your words into action and don't mealy mouth unwanted,
condescending advice to the RGs. Unless NRGs have the power of the vote and
in substantial quantity, voting patterns will follow traditional lines. We
are the voters. Non-national NRGs cannot change this.

Mario responds:

So, I see that you selectively commend NRGs whom you like. I guess you think Rajan, Carmen, Arwin, Anil, etc. are spending their precious time and money because they don't love Goa, and just want to show the Goan peasants how smart they are. I don't think you know these people. No one who lives in "foren" wastes their time and money carelessly.

But, you have finally put your finger on the problem. It is you RG voters who are the primary problem, which is what I have been saying all along. Nothing is going to seriously change until you stop electing and re-electing corrupt politicians. Even a few to start with would be good.

Mario previously wrote:

I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was
going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and
waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming
rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough
credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while
knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get
the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in
just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying desperately to drag them back.

Tony replied:

Manmohan and Sonia are hardly NRIs in the context of this discussion? Pretty dumb if you think so. So also you prove my point that only RIs and RGs can make an effective change.

Mario responds:

Tony, let go of that bull's shempdi or you will hurt yourself:-))

The point I was making was that:

a) India was a mess because of Nehru's socialist policies that resulted in mindless bureaucracy and corruption like bribery, tax evasion and black money, and resources wasted in government run industries for 50 years since independence.

b) People of good will and common sense like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi have turned things around quite quickly, even though the residual bureaucracy and communist coalition partners are slowing them down.

c) Manmohan is smart enough that he takes all kinds of advice from NRIs and even pushed through the OCI that gives Samir heartburn to encourage NRIs to participate in improving India.

c) Goa can change too if you elect a few people with good will and common sense like local versions of Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi.

Mario previously wrote:

There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have
listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when
corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice.
Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if
it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in
proper context.

Tony replied:

You miss the point that India, and by implication Goa has a rule of law. In
India if you are caught, you are penalized after due processes of law. Even
Kasab accused of heinous crimes against the nation has a trial. How many of
the KKKlaners gave poor Negros the benefit of a fair trial? Or the Injuns?
Remember, the only good Injun is a dead Injun.

Mario responds:

Tony, you need to stop reading western novels. The KKK was like a white version of the RSS. They never had any government or legal power and are effectively out of business. There are plenty of good Injuns around who are not dead.

If you had any kind of effective legal system in Goa why is there so much bribery and corruption going on? You yourself gave an example of bribery. Your friend George Pinto describes anything he doesn't like in Goa as "illegal".

Mario previously wrote:

This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Tony replied:

Utter kibosh. This is all American propaganda. History is written by the
victors. The Americans just wanted to evaluate the atomic bomb in a field
trial.

Mario responds:

In that case, I get to write the history. It was a pretty effective field trial, wasn't it? Stopped a four year war in four days and saved a lot of lives on our side. Unfortunately it took the intransigence of the Japanese leaders and two bombs to get it through their heads that they were toast. They could have saved lots of lives if they had not attacked Pearl Harbor in the first place.

Mario previously wrote:

If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs
can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen,
Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time.

Tony replied:

Have we RGs prevented you from going back to your comfort zones? Certainly,
Rajan, Carmen and Arwin have better use of their time and they spend part of it on Goanet. And since when has Rajan or Arwin or Carmen for that matter appointed you their spokesman.

Mario responds:

To begin with, I am the lone voice on Goanet for reason, truth and peace. Secondly, they are going to get a bill for these services:-))

Mario previously wrote:

You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren"
boots like the RG's did before 1961.

Tony replied:

You make a sweeping generalization. Not all RGs were bootlickers. You insult us NRGs. How would you like it if I said all NRGs lick white boots?

Mario responds:

You are correct. Only those who were Portuguese stooges were the boot lickers. What was I thinking? Some of my own relatives were freedom fighters. My whole family were warned not to go to Goa until it was cleared of colonist vermin.

The non-American NRGs can speak for themselves. All I know is that the boots of Indian-Americans are in great demand by bootlickers in America.

Mario previously wrote:

Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak
for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent
communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being
Japanese and Filipinos.

Tony replied:

That may be. But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no matter how you console yourself.

Mario responds:

Once again, the Brits, Australians and Canadians can speak for themselves, but dark skinned Indians live in the most affluent areas in every part of America. There is no such thing as a WASP-only locality in the US. It would be illegal for one thing. If you came here I could show you.

Mario previously wrote:

Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe
in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-))

Tony replied:

Bill Clinton may be safe in Harlem or Bronx or Central Park. But then he is
Bill Clinton the husband of Secretary of State Hillary with oodles of Black
cat/ z class or what ever goes for FBI security. But is Mario Gouveia? Come
clean.

Mario responds:

I always visit Harlem when I am in New York because some of the best music is to be found there. The brothers treat me like one of them because they want my business. Of course I could run into a druggie who needs a fix, but I have that same risk whenever I visit Goa, even in my own neighborhood of Miramar Beach, even with Babush as a neighbor:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct.
There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need
every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the
mess.

Tony replied:

I am glad that for once you agree with me. There is no place like the
quote"mess" unquote that is Goa and despite the "corruption" and all its
irritants. Unfortunately, the type of help that you are offering - carping,
cribbing and grumbling about Goa is what we can do without. Help like that
from Rajan Parrikar, George Pinto, Arwin Mesquita and countless others who
try to do their best with positive inputs is what we will always appreciate
and applaud. Do gooders who only spout platitudes is what we can do without.

Mario responds:

If by "carping, cribbing and grumbling" you mean reminding RGs of who was asleep while the mess was being made, and need to wake up, I plead guilty.

If by "carping, cribbing and grumbling" you mean getting you RGs to stop attacking NRGs for trying to wake you up after another long siesta after the CRZ protests, I plead guilty.

If you appreciate Rajan, Carmen, George, Arwin, Anil and others like them, then my work is done. I only got involved because you and Samir were inexplicably attacking NRGs for tring to help you.

Maybe, your next lengthy "sermao" should be addressed to Samir.
lyrawmn
2010-01-16 20:24:28 UTC
Permalink
--- On Wed, 1/13/10, Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote:
?
Post by Tony de Sa
But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian
just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not
be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no
matter how you console yourself.

I. Nunes questions:
?
After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa,? Mr. D'Sa?

Do you still maintain?First Class status, albeit a subjugated status?in your own land?
?
Further, and importantly, how do you reconcile the pervasive and corrosive caste system with your ideals of equality and opportunity for all Goans??
?

?
Tony de Sa
2010-01-17 17:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Exmo Sr. (Exma Sra?) I Nunes,

I am not sure whether I am adressing a gent or a lady as neither the name I
Nunes nor the email id reveal your sex, Not that I am sexist, but it would
be polite to address you with the appropriate salutation and your name with
the informality of email.
But I digress.
?
Post by lyrawmn
After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who
actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as
publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa,? Mr. D'Sa?

Do you still maintain?First Class status, albeit a subjugated status?in your
own land?
?
Further, and importantly, how do you reconcile the pervasive and corrosive
caste system with your ideals of equality and opportunity for all Goans??

What is under discussion in my post to which you have given this reply is
whether western countries as we call them are biased against Indians and
thereby goans and whether Indians/ Goans are second class citizens or not.
Please answer to the point and don't draw red herrings. The prevailing
status in Goa is not under question but you may start a separate thread and
I will answer your arguement appropriately.
Regards,
Tony
--
\\\
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-17 21:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:24:28 -0800 (PST)
From: lyrawmn <lyrawmn at yahoo.com>

After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa, Mr. D'Sa?

Mario observes:

Oh, I get it. Those WASP-only areas where Indians are not allowed to buy homes are actually in Goa!
Tony de Sa
2010-01-13 08:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Dear Brother and Sister R G's.

It is a common perception among NRGs, that :

1. Each and every one of our RGs is a good-for-nothing waiting only for a
hand out from the NRG brothers and sisters and waiting with an open mouth
for the next visa to fall from their NRG relations.
2. Goa is a mess and that we are incapable of doing anything about it. But
they forget, that it is we and only we that can effectively change what is
happening in Goa. They can only preach and give us advice which is based on
their own frame of reference which no longer holds validity in the reality
of Goa today.
3. So Goa is corrupt. So Goa has open cast mines. America has no corruption?
Nor Britain, nor France, nor Germany, nor Australia? So you my dear NRG
friends will have me and my other gullible brothers believe that these
countries are pristine. Of course you have corruption but it is guised in a
semblance of legality like the CEO of a company (I think it was Lehman Bros)
who took millions just to liquidate the company. And no, there is no Mafia -
these hoods belong to backward countries like India and in particular the
state of Goa. There is no open cast mining? What about the rape of the land
in the American coal mines? What about the human tragedy that we read about?
And what about the destruction to the environment that has been caused by
the west. Our NRG irmaoes endorse these things - after all the West can do
no wrong. What about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even when
the Americans knew that the Japanese were losing the war - that was
perfectly
4.We can only be saved by the advice rather the 'pontificating' of some NRGs
from their comfort zones.
5. Please don't call foren Goans 'bootlickers' it hurts their pride,Use
'toadies' or some such term.
6. Please don't remind the NRGs - at least those who pontificate on Goanet
that they are 'second class' citizens of their newly acquired nationalities
7. Please remind the NRGs that they are free to go walkabout in Harlem,
Soho, etc whenever they feel like. It is perfectly safe.
8. Please don't ever tell them, 'Mid pleasures and palaces though we may
roam,Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home;'
--
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-13 17:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:18:35 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>

1. Each and every one of our RGs is a good-for-nothing waiting only for a
hand out from the NRG brothers and sisters and waiting with an open mouth
for the next visa to fall from their NRG relations.

Mario responds:

Poppycock. There are many good RGs doing their best and offering positive and constructive solutions for Goa, like Floriano and Venita for example. Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the corruption and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and energy and deflecting attention from what needs to be done.

Tony writes:

2. Goa is a mess and that we are incapable of doing anything about it. But
they forget, that it is we and only we that can effectively change what is
happening in Goa. They can only preach and give us advice which is based on
their own frame of reference which no longer holds validity in the reality
of Goa today.

Mario responds:

Yes and no. Yes, it is true that you RGs and "deshi" NRGs have shown yourselves incapable of doing anything about the mess in Goa. If you had been capable, we wouldn't be having this discussion now, would we?

No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms of time and money.

Yes, we can give you advice based on what we have seen work in other countries, which is mostly based on common sense.

No, you are wrong that it does not hold validity in the reality of Goa today, assuming that there is still something called common sense left in Goa.

I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying desperately to drag them backwards.

Tony wrote:

America has no corruption? Nor Britain, nor France, nor Germany, nor Australia? So you my dear NRG friends will have me and my other gullible brothers believe that these countries are pristine. Of course you have corruption but it is guised in a semblance of legality like the CEO of a company (I think it was Lehman Bros) who took millions just to liquidate the company.

Mario responds:

There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice. Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in proper context.

Tony wrote:

What about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even when
the Americans knew that the Japanese were losing the war -

Mario responds:

This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese, who started the war for the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without warning, refused to surrender before and after the bombing of Hiroshima, and only surrendered after the second bombing of Nagasaki.

Because of how the Japanese had fought before that, the estimates of the casualties on the Allied side to finish the war by physically attacking Japan was considered too high. In a war the objective is to kill the enemy while minimizing casualties among your own people. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought a brutal four year war to a screeching halt in just four days, unfortunately at an estimated cost of some 200,000 enemy casualties, all of which could have been avoided if the Japanese had surrendered before then.

Tony wrote:

4. We can only be saved by the advice rather the 'pontificating' of some NRGs from their comfort zones.

Mario responds:

If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen, Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time.

Tony wrote:

5. Please don't call foren Goans 'bootlickers' it hurts their pride,Use
'toadies' or some such term.

Mario responds:

You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren" boots like the RG's did before 1961.

I don't know much about Europe or Blighty or the Gulf, but in America, it is the boots of the Indians that are being licked, while what the Indians are licking is much more fun, if you know what I mean:-))

Tony wrote:

6. Please don't remind the NRGs - at least those who pontificate on Goanet
that they are 'second class' citizens of their newly acquired nationalities

Mario responds:

Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being Japanese and Filipinos. We even have a very popular and successful Governor of an American state from our community. So, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose when they give you tangible suggestions trying to help you.

Tony wrote:

7. Please remind the NRGs that they are free to go walkabout in Harlem,
Soho, etc whenever they feel like. It is perfectly safe.

Mario responds:

Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-))

Tony wrote:

8. Please don't ever tell them, 'Mid pleasures and palaces though we may
roam, Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home;'

Mario responds:

Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct. There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the mess.
Tony de Sa
2010-01-14 06:12:45 UTC
Permalink
@Mario

Quote: Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers
who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the corruption
and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and energy and
deflecting attention from what needs to be done.Unquote

Response: No all NRGs are not a problem - only those who think most
self-conceitedly that they are the repositories of sanity and wisdom, blah,
blah, blah on Goanet and strew their free advice freely.
If we RGs are wasting our energy and time, isn't that our business and
prerogative? What is the NRGs perception of what needs to be done is not
necessarily our perception. And don't the NRGs contribute to a fair share of
the corruption? Take the guy from his overseas home who comes on a two week
holiday to Goa. He suddenly discovers that the old homestead is now worth a
bundle and he needs to dispose of it! He is in a rush - so much to do, so
little time. So he toodles off to his friendly Talathi/ Panchayat Secretary/
Mamlatdar and quietly slips him Rs. 10, 000/- After all what is 200 odd
Amriki dollars? Now who is promoting corruption.

Quote: No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George
Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already
demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin
Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to
light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms
of time and money. Unquote

Do you selectively read posts? Haven't I commended doers like George Pinto
in my previous post when I mentioned adnauseam that if you love Goa,
translate your words into action and don't mealy mouth unwanted,
condescending advice to the RGs. Unless NRGs have the power of the vote and
in substantial quantity, voting patterns will follow traditional lines. We
are the voters. Non-national NRGs cannot change this.

Quote: I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was
going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and
waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming
rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families
were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new
leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough
credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while
knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get
the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in
just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying
desperately to drag them back Unquote

Manmohan and Sonia are hardly NRIs in the context of this discussion? Pretty
dumb if you think so. So also you prove my point that only RIs and RGs can
make an effective change.


Quote: There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have
listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when
corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice.
Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if
it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in
proper context.Unquote

You miss the point that India, and by implication Goa has a rule of law. In
India if you are caught, you are penalized after due processes of law. Even
Kasab accused of heinous crimes against the nation has a trial. How many of
the KKKlaners gave poor Negros the benefit of a fair trial? Or the Injuns?
Remember, the only good Injun is a dead Injun.

Quote: This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor
Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties
at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese, who started the war for the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without
warning, refused to surrender before and after the bombing of Hiroshima, and
only surrendered after the second bombing of Nagasaki.

Because of how the Japanese had fought before that, the estimates of the
casualties on the Allied side to finish the war by physically attacking
Japan was considered too high. In a war the objective is to kill the enemy
while minimizing casualties among your own people. The bombings of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought a brutal four year war to a screeching halt
in just four days, unfortunately at an estimated cost of some 200,000 enemy
casualties, all of which could have been avoided if the Japanese had
surrendered before then unquote

Utter kibosh. This is all American propaganda. History is written by the
victors. The Americans just wanted to evaluate the atomic bomb in a field
trial.

Quote: If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs
can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen,
Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time. Unquote

Have we RGs prevented you from going back to your comfort zones? Certainly,
Rajan, Carmen and Arwin have better use of their time and they spend part of
it on Goanet. And since when has Rajan or Arwin or Carmen for that matter
appointed you their spokesman.

Quote: You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren"
boots like the RG's did before 1961.Unquote

You make a sweeping generalization. Not all RGs were bootlickers. You insult
us NRGs. How would you like it if I said all NRGs lick white boots?

Quote: Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak
for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent
communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being
Japanese and Filipinos. We even have a very popular and successful Governor
of an American state from our community. So, you have everything to gain
and nothing to lose when they give you tangible suggestions trying to help
you. Unquote

That may be. But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian
just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not
be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no
matter how you console yourself.

Quote: Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe
in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-)) unquote.

Bill Clinton may be safe in Harlem or Bronx or Central Park. But then he is
Bill Clinton the husband of Secretary of State Hillary with oodles of Black
cat/ z class or what ever goes for FBI security. But is Mario Gouveia? Come
clean.

Quote: Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct.
There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need
every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the
mess.Unquote.

I am glad that for once you agree with me. There is no place like the
quote"mess" unquote that is Goa and despite the "corruption" and all its
irritants. Unfortunately, the type of help that you are offering - carping,
cribbing and grumbling about Goa is what we can do without. Help like that
from Rajan Parrikar, George Pinto, Arwin Mesquita and countless others who
try to do their best with positive inputs is what we will always appreciate
and applaud. Do gooders who only spout platitudes is what we can do without.
--
\\\
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-14 17:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:

Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers
who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the
corruption and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and
energy and deflecting attention from what needs to be done.

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:42:45 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>

No all NRGs are not a problem - only those who think most self-conceitedly that they are the repositories of sanity and wisdom, blah, blah, blah on Goanet and strew their free advice freely.

Mario responds:

Tony, you are not getting it. To begin with, I did not say you said that "all" NRGs are a problem. You and Samir apparently think the NRGs who are trying to help Goa are a bigger problem than the corruption and mess in Goa.

If you RGs knew what the heck you were doing, we would not even be having this discussion. All NRGs could have come to Goa and had a good time, which I still do, instead of wasting their time and energy and money like Rajan, Carmen, George, Arwin, etc.

Tony wrote:

If we RGs are wasting our energy and time, isn't that our business and
prerogative? What is the NRGs perception of what needs to be done is not
necessarily our perception.

Mario responds:

Yes, it is your prerogative to go back to sleep and allow the mess to grow. On the other hand, it is the prerogative of the NRGs who are motivated to try and help change things for the better, sometimes based on their experiences in countries that are much better managed, sometimes by simply using common sense that seems to have eluded so many RGs.

Tony wrote:

And don't the NRGs contribute to a fair share of the corruption? Take the guy from his overseas home who comes on a two week holiday to Goa. He suddenly discovers that the old homestead is now worth a bundle and he needs to dispose of it! He is in a rush - so much to do, so little time. So he toodles off to his friendly Talathi/Panchayat Secretary/Mamlatdar and quietly slips him Rs. 10,000/- After all what is 200 odd Amriki dollars? Now who is promoting corruption.

Mario responds:

Are individuals selling their property the corruption that is making a mess in Goa, or what the buyers are then doing with the property, which is where you RGs have been asleep at the switch?

Mario previously wrote:

No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George
Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already
demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin
Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to
light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms of time and money.

Tony replied:

Do you selectively read posts? Haven't I commended doers like George Pinto
in my previous post when I mentioned adnauseam that if you love Goa,
translate your words into action and don't mealy mouth unwanted,
condescending advice to the RGs. Unless NRGs have the power of the vote and
in substantial quantity, voting patterns will follow traditional lines. We
are the voters. Non-national NRGs cannot change this.

Mario responds:

So, I see that you selectively commend NRGs whom you like. I guess you think Rajan, Carmen, Arwin, Anil, etc. are spending their precious time and money because they don't love Goa, and just want to show the Goan peasants how smart they are. I don't think you know these people. No one who lives in "foren" wastes their time and money carelessly.

But, you have finally put your finger on the problem. It is you RG voters who are the primary problem, which is what I have been saying all along. Nothing is going to seriously change until you stop electing and re-electing corrupt politicians. Even a few to start with would be good.

Mario previously wrote:

I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was
going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and
waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming
rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough
credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while
knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get
the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in
just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying desperately to drag them back.

Tony replied:

Manmohan and Sonia are hardly NRIs in the context of this discussion? Pretty dumb if you think so. So also you prove my point that only RIs and RGs can make an effective change.

Mario responds:

Tony, let go of that bull's shempdi or you will hurt yourself:-))

The point I was making was that:

a) India was a mess because of Nehru's socialist policies that resulted in mindless bureaucracy and corruption like bribery, tax evasion and black money, and resources wasted in government run industries for 50 years since independence.

b) People of good will and common sense like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi have turned things around quite quickly, even though the residual bureaucracy and communist coalition partners are slowing them down.

c) Manmohan is smart enough that he takes all kinds of advice from NRIs and even pushed through the OCI that gives Samir heartburn to encourage NRIs to participate in improving India.

c) Goa can change too if you elect a few people with good will and common sense like local versions of Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi.

Mario previously wrote:

There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have
listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when
corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice.
Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if
it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in
proper context.

Tony replied:

You miss the point that India, and by implication Goa has a rule of law. In
India if you are caught, you are penalized after due processes of law. Even
Kasab accused of heinous crimes against the nation has a trial. How many of
the KKKlaners gave poor Negros the benefit of a fair trial? Or the Injuns?
Remember, the only good Injun is a dead Injun.

Mario responds:

Tony, you need to stop reading western novels. The KKK was like a white version of the RSS. They never had any government or legal power and are effectively out of business. There are plenty of good Injuns around who are not dead.

If you had any kind of effective legal system in Goa why is there so much bribery and corruption going on? You yourself gave an example of bribery. Your friend George Pinto describes anything he doesn't like in Goa as "illegal".

Mario previously wrote:

This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Tony replied:

Utter kibosh. This is all American propaganda. History is written by the
victors. The Americans just wanted to evaluate the atomic bomb in a field
trial.

Mario responds:

In that case, I get to write the history. It was a pretty effective field trial, wasn't it? Stopped a four year war in four days and saved a lot of lives on our side. Unfortunately it took the intransigence of the Japanese leaders and two bombs to get it through their heads that they were toast. They could have saved lots of lives if they had not attacked Pearl Harbor in the first place.

Mario previously wrote:

If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs
can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen,
Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time.

Tony replied:

Have we RGs prevented you from going back to your comfort zones? Certainly,
Rajan, Carmen and Arwin have better use of their time and they spend part of it on Goanet. And since when has Rajan or Arwin or Carmen for that matter appointed you their spokesman.

Mario responds:

To begin with, I am the lone voice on Goanet for reason, truth and peace. Secondly, they are going to get a bill for these services:-))

Mario previously wrote:

You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren"
boots like the RG's did before 1961.

Tony replied:

You make a sweeping generalization. Not all RGs were bootlickers. You insult us NRGs. How would you like it if I said all NRGs lick white boots?

Mario responds:

You are correct. Only those who were Portuguese stooges were the boot lickers. What was I thinking? Some of my own relatives were freedom fighters. My whole family were warned not to go to Goa until it was cleared of colonist vermin.

The non-American NRGs can speak for themselves. All I know is that the boots of Indian-Americans are in great demand by bootlickers in America.

Mario previously wrote:

Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak
for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent
communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being
Japanese and Filipinos.

Tony replied:

That may be. But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no matter how you console yourself.

Mario responds:

Once again, the Brits, Australians and Canadians can speak for themselves, but dark skinned Indians live in the most affluent areas in every part of America. There is no such thing as a WASP-only locality in the US. It would be illegal for one thing. If you came here I could show you.

Mario previously wrote:

Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe
in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-))

Tony replied:

Bill Clinton may be safe in Harlem or Bronx or Central Park. But then he is
Bill Clinton the husband of Secretary of State Hillary with oodles of Black
cat/ z class or what ever goes for FBI security. But is Mario Gouveia? Come
clean.

Mario responds:

I always visit Harlem when I am in New York because some of the best music is to be found there. The brothers treat me like one of them because they want my business. Of course I could run into a druggie who needs a fix, but I have that same risk whenever I visit Goa, even in my own neighborhood of Miramar Beach, even with Babush as a neighbor:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct.
There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need
every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the
mess.

Tony replied:

I am glad that for once you agree with me. There is no place like the
quote"mess" unquote that is Goa and despite the "corruption" and all its
irritants. Unfortunately, the type of help that you are offering - carping,
cribbing and grumbling about Goa is what we can do without. Help like that
from Rajan Parrikar, George Pinto, Arwin Mesquita and countless others who
try to do their best with positive inputs is what we will always appreciate
and applaud. Do gooders who only spout platitudes is what we can do without.

Mario responds:

If by "carping, cribbing and grumbling" you mean reminding RGs of who was asleep while the mess was being made, and need to wake up, I plead guilty.

If by "carping, cribbing and grumbling" you mean getting you RGs to stop attacking NRGs for trying to wake you up after another long siesta after the CRZ protests, I plead guilty.

If you appreciate Rajan, Carmen, George, Arwin, Anil and others like them, then my work is done. I only got involved because you and Samir were inexplicably attacking NRGs for tring to help you.

Maybe, your next lengthy "sermao" should be addressed to Samir.
lyrawmn
2010-01-16 20:24:28 UTC
Permalink
--- On Wed, 1/13/10, Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote:
?
Post by Tony de Sa
But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian
just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not
be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no
matter how you console yourself.

I. Nunes questions:
?
After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa,? Mr. D'Sa?

Do you still maintain?First Class status, albeit a subjugated status?in your own land?
?
Further, and importantly, how do you reconcile the pervasive and corrosive caste system with your ideals of equality and opportunity for all Goans??
?

?
Tony de Sa
2010-01-17 17:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Exmo Sr. (Exma Sra?) I Nunes,

I am not sure whether I am adressing a gent or a lady as neither the name I
Nunes nor the email id reveal your sex, Not that I am sexist, but it would
be polite to address you with the appropriate salutation and your name with
the informality of email.
But I digress.
?
Post by lyrawmn
After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who
actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as
publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa,? Mr. D'Sa?

Do you still maintain?First Class status, albeit a subjugated status?in your
own land?
?
Further, and importantly, how do you reconcile the pervasive and corrosive
caste system with your ideals of equality and opportunity for all Goans??

What is under discussion in my post to which you have given this reply is
whether western countries as we call them are biased against Indians and
thereby goans and whether Indians/ Goans are second class citizens or not.
Please answer to the point and don't draw red herrings. The prevailing
status in Goa is not under question but you may start a separate thread and
I will answer your arguement appropriately.
Regards,
Tony
--
\\\
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-17 21:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:24:28 -0800 (PST)
From: lyrawmn <lyrawmn at yahoo.com>

After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa, Mr. D'Sa?

Mario observes:

Oh, I get it. Those WASP-only areas where Indians are not allowed to buy homes are actually in Goa!
Tony de Sa
2010-01-13 08:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Dear Brother and Sister R G's.

It is a common perception among NRGs, that :

1. Each and every one of our RGs is a good-for-nothing waiting only for a
hand out from the NRG brothers and sisters and waiting with an open mouth
for the next visa to fall from their NRG relations.
2. Goa is a mess and that we are incapable of doing anything about it. But
they forget, that it is we and only we that can effectively change what is
happening in Goa. They can only preach and give us advice which is based on
their own frame of reference which no longer holds validity in the reality
of Goa today.
3. So Goa is corrupt. So Goa has open cast mines. America has no corruption?
Nor Britain, nor France, nor Germany, nor Australia? So you my dear NRG
friends will have me and my other gullible brothers believe that these
countries are pristine. Of course you have corruption but it is guised in a
semblance of legality like the CEO of a company (I think it was Lehman Bros)
who took millions just to liquidate the company. And no, there is no Mafia -
these hoods belong to backward countries like India and in particular the
state of Goa. There is no open cast mining? What about the rape of the land
in the American coal mines? What about the human tragedy that we read about?
And what about the destruction to the environment that has been caused by
the west. Our NRG irmaoes endorse these things - after all the West can do
no wrong. What about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even when
the Americans knew that the Japanese were losing the war - that was
perfectly
4.We can only be saved by the advice rather the 'pontificating' of some NRGs
from their comfort zones.
5. Please don't call foren Goans 'bootlickers' it hurts their pride,Use
'toadies' or some such term.
6. Please don't remind the NRGs - at least those who pontificate on Goanet
that they are 'second class' citizens of their newly acquired nationalities
7. Please remind the NRGs that they are free to go walkabout in Harlem,
Soho, etc whenever they feel like. It is perfectly safe.
8. Please don't ever tell them, 'Mid pleasures and palaces though we may
roam,Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home;'
--
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-13 17:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:18:35 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>

1. Each and every one of our RGs is a good-for-nothing waiting only for a
hand out from the NRG brothers and sisters and waiting with an open mouth
for the next visa to fall from their NRG relations.

Mario responds:

Poppycock. There are many good RGs doing their best and offering positive and constructive solutions for Goa, like Floriano and Venita for example. Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the corruption and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and energy and deflecting attention from what needs to be done.

Tony writes:

2. Goa is a mess and that we are incapable of doing anything about it. But
they forget, that it is we and only we that can effectively change what is
happening in Goa. They can only preach and give us advice which is based on
their own frame of reference which no longer holds validity in the reality
of Goa today.

Mario responds:

Yes and no. Yes, it is true that you RGs and "deshi" NRGs have shown yourselves incapable of doing anything about the mess in Goa. If you had been capable, we wouldn't be having this discussion now, would we?

No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms of time and money.

Yes, we can give you advice based on what we have seen work in other countries, which is mostly based on common sense.

No, you are wrong that it does not hold validity in the reality of Goa today, assuming that there is still something called common sense left in Goa.

I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying desperately to drag them backwards.

Tony wrote:

America has no corruption? Nor Britain, nor France, nor Germany, nor Australia? So you my dear NRG friends will have me and my other gullible brothers believe that these countries are pristine. Of course you have corruption but it is guised in a semblance of legality like the CEO of a company (I think it was Lehman Bros) who took millions just to liquidate the company.

Mario responds:

There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice. Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in proper context.

Tony wrote:

What about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even when
the Americans knew that the Japanese were losing the war -

Mario responds:

This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese, who started the war for the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without warning, refused to surrender before and after the bombing of Hiroshima, and only surrendered after the second bombing of Nagasaki.

Because of how the Japanese had fought before that, the estimates of the casualties on the Allied side to finish the war by physically attacking Japan was considered too high. In a war the objective is to kill the enemy while minimizing casualties among your own people. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought a brutal four year war to a screeching halt in just four days, unfortunately at an estimated cost of some 200,000 enemy casualties, all of which could have been avoided if the Japanese had surrendered before then.

Tony wrote:

4. We can only be saved by the advice rather the 'pontificating' of some NRGs from their comfort zones.

Mario responds:

If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen, Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time.

Tony wrote:

5. Please don't call foren Goans 'bootlickers' it hurts their pride,Use
'toadies' or some such term.

Mario responds:

You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren" boots like the RG's did before 1961.

I don't know much about Europe or Blighty or the Gulf, but in America, it is the boots of the Indians that are being licked, while what the Indians are licking is much more fun, if you know what I mean:-))

Tony wrote:

6. Please don't remind the NRGs - at least those who pontificate on Goanet
that they are 'second class' citizens of their newly acquired nationalities

Mario responds:

Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being Japanese and Filipinos. We even have a very popular and successful Governor of an American state from our community. So, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose when they give you tangible suggestions trying to help you.

Tony wrote:

7. Please remind the NRGs that they are free to go walkabout in Harlem,
Soho, etc whenever they feel like. It is perfectly safe.

Mario responds:

Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-))

Tony wrote:

8. Please don't ever tell them, 'Mid pleasures and palaces though we may
roam, Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home;'

Mario responds:

Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct. There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the mess.
Tony de Sa
2010-01-14 06:12:45 UTC
Permalink
@Mario

Quote: Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers
who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the corruption
and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and energy and
deflecting attention from what needs to be done.Unquote

Response: No all NRGs are not a problem - only those who think most
self-conceitedly that they are the repositories of sanity and wisdom, blah,
blah, blah on Goanet and strew their free advice freely.
If we RGs are wasting our energy and time, isn't that our business and
prerogative? What is the NRGs perception of what needs to be done is not
necessarily our perception. And don't the NRGs contribute to a fair share of
the corruption? Take the guy from his overseas home who comes on a two week
holiday to Goa. He suddenly discovers that the old homestead is now worth a
bundle and he needs to dispose of it! He is in a rush - so much to do, so
little time. So he toodles off to his friendly Talathi/ Panchayat Secretary/
Mamlatdar and quietly slips him Rs. 10, 000/- After all what is 200 odd
Amriki dollars? Now who is promoting corruption.

Quote: No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George
Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already
demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin
Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to
light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms
of time and money. Unquote

Do you selectively read posts? Haven't I commended doers like George Pinto
in my previous post when I mentioned adnauseam that if you love Goa,
translate your words into action and don't mealy mouth unwanted,
condescending advice to the RGs. Unless NRGs have the power of the vote and
in substantial quantity, voting patterns will follow traditional lines. We
are the voters. Non-national NRGs cannot change this.

Quote: I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was
going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and
waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming
rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families
were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new
leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough
credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while
knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get
the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in
just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying
desperately to drag them back Unquote

Manmohan and Sonia are hardly NRIs in the context of this discussion? Pretty
dumb if you think so. So also you prove my point that only RIs and RGs can
make an effective change.


Quote: There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have
listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when
corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice.
Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if
it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in
proper context.Unquote

You miss the point that India, and by implication Goa has a rule of law. In
India if you are caught, you are penalized after due processes of law. Even
Kasab accused of heinous crimes against the nation has a trial. How many of
the KKKlaners gave poor Negros the benefit of a fair trial? Or the Injuns?
Remember, the only good Injun is a dead Injun.

Quote: This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor
Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties
at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese, who started the war for the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without
warning, refused to surrender before and after the bombing of Hiroshima, and
only surrendered after the second bombing of Nagasaki.

Because of how the Japanese had fought before that, the estimates of the
casualties on the Allied side to finish the war by physically attacking
Japan was considered too high. In a war the objective is to kill the enemy
while minimizing casualties among your own people. The bombings of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought a brutal four year war to a screeching halt
in just four days, unfortunately at an estimated cost of some 200,000 enemy
casualties, all of which could have been avoided if the Japanese had
surrendered before then unquote

Utter kibosh. This is all American propaganda. History is written by the
victors. The Americans just wanted to evaluate the atomic bomb in a field
trial.

Quote: If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs
can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen,
Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time. Unquote

Have we RGs prevented you from going back to your comfort zones? Certainly,
Rajan, Carmen and Arwin have better use of their time and they spend part of
it on Goanet. And since when has Rajan or Arwin or Carmen for that matter
appointed you their spokesman.

Quote: You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren"
boots like the RG's did before 1961.Unquote

You make a sweeping generalization. Not all RGs were bootlickers. You insult
us NRGs. How would you like it if I said all NRGs lick white boots?

Quote: Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak
for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent
communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being
Japanese and Filipinos. We even have a very popular and successful Governor
of an American state from our community. So, you have everything to gain
and nothing to lose when they give you tangible suggestions trying to help
you. Unquote

That may be. But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian
just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not
be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no
matter how you console yourself.

Quote: Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe
in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-)) unquote.

Bill Clinton may be safe in Harlem or Bronx or Central Park. But then he is
Bill Clinton the husband of Secretary of State Hillary with oodles of Black
cat/ z class or what ever goes for FBI security. But is Mario Gouveia? Come
clean.

Quote: Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct.
There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need
every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the
mess.Unquote.

I am glad that for once you agree with me. There is no place like the
quote"mess" unquote that is Goa and despite the "corruption" and all its
irritants. Unfortunately, the type of help that you are offering - carping,
cribbing and grumbling about Goa is what we can do without. Help like that
from Rajan Parrikar, George Pinto, Arwin Mesquita and countless others who
try to do their best with positive inputs is what we will always appreciate
and applaud. Do gooders who only spout platitudes is what we can do without.
--
\\\
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-14 17:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:

Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers
who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the
corruption and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and
energy and deflecting attention from what needs to be done.

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:42:45 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>

No all NRGs are not a problem - only those who think most self-conceitedly that they are the repositories of sanity and wisdom, blah, blah, blah on Goanet and strew their free advice freely.

Mario responds:

Tony, you are not getting it. To begin with, I did not say you said that "all" NRGs are a problem. You and Samir apparently think the NRGs who are trying to help Goa are a bigger problem than the corruption and mess in Goa.

If you RGs knew what the heck you were doing, we would not even be having this discussion. All NRGs could have come to Goa and had a good time, which I still do, instead of wasting their time and energy and money like Rajan, Carmen, George, Arwin, etc.

Tony wrote:

If we RGs are wasting our energy and time, isn't that our business and
prerogative? What is the NRGs perception of what needs to be done is not
necessarily our perception.

Mario responds:

Yes, it is your prerogative to go back to sleep and allow the mess to grow. On the other hand, it is the prerogative of the NRGs who are motivated to try and help change things for the better, sometimes based on their experiences in countries that are much better managed, sometimes by simply using common sense that seems to have eluded so many RGs.

Tony wrote:

And don't the NRGs contribute to a fair share of the corruption? Take the guy from his overseas home who comes on a two week holiday to Goa. He suddenly discovers that the old homestead is now worth a bundle and he needs to dispose of it! He is in a rush - so much to do, so little time. So he toodles off to his friendly Talathi/Panchayat Secretary/Mamlatdar and quietly slips him Rs. 10,000/- After all what is 200 odd Amriki dollars? Now who is promoting corruption.

Mario responds:

Are individuals selling their property the corruption that is making a mess in Goa, or what the buyers are then doing with the property, which is where you RGs have been asleep at the switch?

Mario previously wrote:

No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George
Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already
demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin
Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to
light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms of time and money.

Tony replied:

Do you selectively read posts? Haven't I commended doers like George Pinto
in my previous post when I mentioned adnauseam that if you love Goa,
translate your words into action and don't mealy mouth unwanted,
condescending advice to the RGs. Unless NRGs have the power of the vote and
in substantial quantity, voting patterns will follow traditional lines. We
are the voters. Non-national NRGs cannot change this.

Mario responds:

So, I see that you selectively commend NRGs whom you like. I guess you think Rajan, Carmen, Arwin, Anil, etc. are spending their precious time and money because they don't love Goa, and just want to show the Goan peasants how smart they are. I don't think you know these people. No one who lives in "foren" wastes their time and money carelessly.

But, you have finally put your finger on the problem. It is you RG voters who are the primary problem, which is what I have been saying all along. Nothing is going to seriously change until you stop electing and re-electing corrupt politicians. Even a few to start with would be good.

Mario previously wrote:

I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was
going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and
waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming
rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough
credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while
knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get
the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in
just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying desperately to drag them back.

Tony replied:

Manmohan and Sonia are hardly NRIs in the context of this discussion? Pretty dumb if you think so. So also you prove my point that only RIs and RGs can make an effective change.

Mario responds:

Tony, let go of that bull's shempdi or you will hurt yourself:-))

The point I was making was that:

a) India was a mess because of Nehru's socialist policies that resulted in mindless bureaucracy and corruption like bribery, tax evasion and black money, and resources wasted in government run industries for 50 years since independence.

b) People of good will and common sense like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi have turned things around quite quickly, even though the residual bureaucracy and communist coalition partners are slowing them down.

c) Manmohan is smart enough that he takes all kinds of advice from NRIs and even pushed through the OCI that gives Samir heartburn to encourage NRIs to participate in improving India.

c) Goa can change too if you elect a few people with good will and common sense like local versions of Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi.

Mario previously wrote:

There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have
listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when
corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice.
Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if
it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in
proper context.

Tony replied:

You miss the point that India, and by implication Goa has a rule of law. In
India if you are caught, you are penalized after due processes of law. Even
Kasab accused of heinous crimes against the nation has a trial. How many of
the KKKlaners gave poor Negros the benefit of a fair trial? Or the Injuns?
Remember, the only good Injun is a dead Injun.

Mario responds:

Tony, you need to stop reading western novels. The KKK was like a white version of the RSS. They never had any government or legal power and are effectively out of business. There are plenty of good Injuns around who are not dead.

If you had any kind of effective legal system in Goa why is there so much bribery and corruption going on? You yourself gave an example of bribery. Your friend George Pinto describes anything he doesn't like in Goa as "illegal".

Mario previously wrote:

This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Tony replied:

Utter kibosh. This is all American propaganda. History is written by the
victors. The Americans just wanted to evaluate the atomic bomb in a field
trial.

Mario responds:

In that case, I get to write the history. It was a pretty effective field trial, wasn't it? Stopped a four year war in four days and saved a lot of lives on our side. Unfortunately it took the intransigence of the Japanese leaders and two bombs to get it through their heads that they were toast. They could have saved lots of lives if they had not attacked Pearl Harbor in the first place.

Mario previously wrote:

If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs
can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen,
Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time.

Tony replied:

Have we RGs prevented you from going back to your comfort zones? Certainly,
Rajan, Carmen and Arwin have better use of their time and they spend part of it on Goanet. And since when has Rajan or Arwin or Carmen for that matter appointed you their spokesman.

Mario responds:

To begin with, I am the lone voice on Goanet for reason, truth and peace. Secondly, they are going to get a bill for these services:-))

Mario previously wrote:

You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren"
boots like the RG's did before 1961.

Tony replied:

You make a sweeping generalization. Not all RGs were bootlickers. You insult us NRGs. How would you like it if I said all NRGs lick white boots?

Mario responds:

You are correct. Only those who were Portuguese stooges were the boot lickers. What was I thinking? Some of my own relatives were freedom fighters. My whole family were warned not to go to Goa until it was cleared of colonist vermin.

The non-American NRGs can speak for themselves. All I know is that the boots of Indian-Americans are in great demand by bootlickers in America.

Mario previously wrote:

Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak
for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent
communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being
Japanese and Filipinos.

Tony replied:

That may be. But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no matter how you console yourself.

Mario responds:

Once again, the Brits, Australians and Canadians can speak for themselves, but dark skinned Indians live in the most affluent areas in every part of America. There is no such thing as a WASP-only locality in the US. It would be illegal for one thing. If you came here I could show you.

Mario previously wrote:

Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe
in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-))

Tony replied:

Bill Clinton may be safe in Harlem or Bronx or Central Park. But then he is
Bill Clinton the husband of Secretary of State Hillary with oodles of Black
cat/ z class or what ever goes for FBI security. But is Mario Gouveia? Come
clean.

Mario responds:

I always visit Harlem when I am in New York because some of the best music is to be found there. The brothers treat me like one of them because they want my business. Of course I could run into a druggie who needs a fix, but I have that same risk whenever I visit Goa, even in my own neighborhood of Miramar Beach, even with Babush as a neighbor:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct.
There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need
every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the
mess.

Tony replied:

I am glad that for once you agree with me. There is no place like the
quote"mess" unquote that is Goa and despite the "corruption" and all its
irritants. Unfortunately, the type of help that you are offering - carping,
cribbing and grumbling about Goa is what we can do without. Help like that
from Rajan Parrikar, George Pinto, Arwin Mesquita and countless others who
try to do their best with positive inputs is what we will always appreciate
and applaud. Do gooders who only spout platitudes is what we can do without.

Mario responds:

If by "carping, cribbing and grumbling" you mean reminding RGs of who was asleep while the mess was being made, and need to wake up, I plead guilty.

If by "carping, cribbing and grumbling" you mean getting you RGs to stop attacking NRGs for trying to wake you up after another long siesta after the CRZ protests, I plead guilty.

If you appreciate Rajan, Carmen, George, Arwin, Anil and others like them, then my work is done. I only got involved because you and Samir were inexplicably attacking NRGs for tring to help you.

Maybe, your next lengthy "sermao" should be addressed to Samir.
lyrawmn
2010-01-16 20:24:28 UTC
Permalink
--- On Wed, 1/13/10, Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote:
?
Post by Tony de Sa
But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian
just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not
be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no
matter how you console yourself.

I. Nunes questions:
?
After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa,? Mr. D'Sa?

Do you still maintain?First Class status, albeit a subjugated status?in your own land?
?
Further, and importantly, how do you reconcile the pervasive and corrosive caste system with your ideals of equality and opportunity for all Goans??
?

?
Tony de Sa
2010-01-17 17:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Exmo Sr. (Exma Sra?) I Nunes,

I am not sure whether I am adressing a gent or a lady as neither the name I
Nunes nor the email id reveal your sex, Not that I am sexist, but it would
be polite to address you with the appropriate salutation and your name with
the informality of email.
But I digress.
?
Post by lyrawmn
After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who
actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as
publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa,? Mr. D'Sa?

Do you still maintain?First Class status, albeit a subjugated status?in your
own land?
?
Further, and importantly, how do you reconcile the pervasive and corrosive
caste system with your ideals of equality and opportunity for all Goans??

What is under discussion in my post to which you have given this reply is
whether western countries as we call them are biased against Indians and
thereby goans and whether Indians/ Goans are second class citizens or not.
Please answer to the point and don't draw red herrings. The prevailing
status in Goa is not under question but you may start a separate thread and
I will answer your arguement appropriately.
Regards,
Tony
--
\\\
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-17 21:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:24:28 -0800 (PST)
From: lyrawmn <lyrawmn at yahoo.com>

After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa, Mr. D'Sa?

Mario observes:

Oh, I get it. Those WASP-only areas where Indians are not allowed to buy homes are actually in Goa!
Tony de Sa
2010-01-13 08:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Dear Brother and Sister R G's.

It is a common perception among NRGs, that :

1. Each and every one of our RGs is a good-for-nothing waiting only for a
hand out from the NRG brothers and sisters and waiting with an open mouth
for the next visa to fall from their NRG relations.
2. Goa is a mess and that we are incapable of doing anything about it. But
they forget, that it is we and only we that can effectively change what is
happening in Goa. They can only preach and give us advice which is based on
their own frame of reference which no longer holds validity in the reality
of Goa today.
3. So Goa is corrupt. So Goa has open cast mines. America has no corruption?
Nor Britain, nor France, nor Germany, nor Australia? So you my dear NRG
friends will have me and my other gullible brothers believe that these
countries are pristine. Of course you have corruption but it is guised in a
semblance of legality like the CEO of a company (I think it was Lehman Bros)
who took millions just to liquidate the company. And no, there is no Mafia -
these hoods belong to backward countries like India and in particular the
state of Goa. There is no open cast mining? What about the rape of the land
in the American coal mines? What about the human tragedy that we read about?
And what about the destruction to the environment that has been caused by
the west. Our NRG irmaoes endorse these things - after all the West can do
no wrong. What about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even when
the Americans knew that the Japanese were losing the war - that was
perfectly
4.We can only be saved by the advice rather the 'pontificating' of some NRGs
from their comfort zones.
5. Please don't call foren Goans 'bootlickers' it hurts their pride,Use
'toadies' or some such term.
6. Please don't remind the NRGs - at least those who pontificate on Goanet
that they are 'second class' citizens of their newly acquired nationalities
7. Please remind the NRGs that they are free to go walkabout in Harlem,
Soho, etc whenever they feel like. It is perfectly safe.
8. Please don't ever tell them, 'Mid pleasures and palaces though we may
roam,Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home;'
--
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-13 17:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:18:35 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>

1. Each and every one of our RGs is a good-for-nothing waiting only for a
hand out from the NRG brothers and sisters and waiting with an open mouth
for the next visa to fall from their NRG relations.

Mario responds:

Poppycock. There are many good RGs doing their best and offering positive and constructive solutions for Goa, like Floriano and Venita for example. Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the corruption and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and energy and deflecting attention from what needs to be done.

Tony writes:

2. Goa is a mess and that we are incapable of doing anything about it. But
they forget, that it is we and only we that can effectively change what is
happening in Goa. They can only preach and give us advice which is based on
their own frame of reference which no longer holds validity in the reality
of Goa today.

Mario responds:

Yes and no. Yes, it is true that you RGs and "deshi" NRGs have shown yourselves incapable of doing anything about the mess in Goa. If you had been capable, we wouldn't be having this discussion now, would we?

No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms of time and money.

Yes, we can give you advice based on what we have seen work in other countries, which is mostly based on common sense.

No, you are wrong that it does not hold validity in the reality of Goa today, assuming that there is still something called common sense left in Goa.

I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying desperately to drag them backwards.

Tony wrote:

America has no corruption? Nor Britain, nor France, nor Germany, nor Australia? So you my dear NRG friends will have me and my other gullible brothers believe that these countries are pristine. Of course you have corruption but it is guised in a semblance of legality like the CEO of a company (I think it was Lehman Bros) who took millions just to liquidate the company.

Mario responds:

There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice. Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in proper context.

Tony wrote:

What about the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki even when
the Americans knew that the Japanese were losing the war -

Mario responds:

This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese, who started the war for the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without warning, refused to surrender before and after the bombing of Hiroshima, and only surrendered after the second bombing of Nagasaki.

Because of how the Japanese had fought before that, the estimates of the casualties on the Allied side to finish the war by physically attacking Japan was considered too high. In a war the objective is to kill the enemy while minimizing casualties among your own people. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought a brutal four year war to a screeching halt in just four days, unfortunately at an estimated cost of some 200,000 enemy casualties, all of which could have been avoided if the Japanese had surrendered before then.

Tony wrote:

4. We can only be saved by the advice rather the 'pontificating' of some NRGs from their comfort zones.

Mario responds:

If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen, Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time.

Tony wrote:

5. Please don't call foren Goans 'bootlickers' it hurts their pride,Use
'toadies' or some such term.

Mario responds:

You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren" boots like the RG's did before 1961.

I don't know much about Europe or Blighty or the Gulf, but in America, it is the boots of the Indians that are being licked, while what the Indians are licking is much more fun, if you know what I mean:-))

Tony wrote:

6. Please don't remind the NRGs - at least those who pontificate on Goanet
that they are 'second class' citizens of their newly acquired nationalities

Mario responds:

Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being Japanese and Filipinos. We even have a very popular and successful Governor of an American state from our community. So, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose when they give you tangible suggestions trying to help you.

Tony wrote:

7. Please remind the NRGs that they are free to go walkabout in Harlem,
Soho, etc whenever they feel like. It is perfectly safe.

Mario responds:

Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-))

Tony wrote:

8. Please don't ever tell them, 'Mid pleasures and palaces though we may
roam, Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home;'

Mario responds:

Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct. There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the mess.
Tony de Sa
2010-01-14 06:12:45 UTC
Permalink
@Mario

Quote: Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers
who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the corruption
and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and energy and
deflecting attention from what needs to be done.Unquote

Response: No all NRGs are not a problem - only those who think most
self-conceitedly that they are the repositories of sanity and wisdom, blah,
blah, blah on Goanet and strew their free advice freely.
If we RGs are wasting our energy and time, isn't that our business and
prerogative? What is the NRGs perception of what needs to be done is not
necessarily our perception. And don't the NRGs contribute to a fair share of
the corruption? Take the guy from his overseas home who comes on a two week
holiday to Goa. He suddenly discovers that the old homestead is now worth a
bundle and he needs to dispose of it! He is in a rush - so much to do, so
little time. So he toodles off to his friendly Talathi/ Panchayat Secretary/
Mamlatdar and quietly slips him Rs. 10, 000/- After all what is 200 odd
Amriki dollars? Now who is promoting corruption.

Quote: No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George
Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already
demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin
Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to
light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms
of time and money. Unquote

Do you selectively read posts? Haven't I commended doers like George Pinto
in my previous post when I mentioned adnauseam that if you love Goa,
translate your words into action and don't mealy mouth unwanted,
condescending advice to the RGs. Unless NRGs have the power of the vote and
in substantial quantity, voting patterns will follow traditional lines. We
are the voters. Non-national NRGs cannot change this.

Quote: I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was
going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and
waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming
rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families
were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new
leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough
credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while
knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get
the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in
just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying
desperately to drag them back Unquote

Manmohan and Sonia are hardly NRIs in the context of this discussion? Pretty
dumb if you think so. So also you prove my point that only RIs and RGs can
make an effective change.


Quote: There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have
listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when
corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice.
Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if
it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in
proper context.Unquote

You miss the point that India, and by implication Goa has a rule of law. In
India if you are caught, you are penalized after due processes of law. Even
Kasab accused of heinous crimes against the nation has a trial. How many of
the KKKlaners gave poor Negros the benefit of a fair trial? Or the Injuns?
Remember, the only good Injun is a dead Injun.

Quote: This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor
Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties
at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese, who started the war for the US by bombing Pearl Harbor without
warning, refused to surrender before and after the bombing of Hiroshima, and
only surrendered after the second bombing of Nagasaki.

Because of how the Japanese had fought before that, the estimates of the
casualties on the Allied side to finish the war by physically attacking
Japan was considered too high. In a war the objective is to kill the enemy
while minimizing casualties among your own people. The bombings of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki brought a brutal four year war to a screeching halt
in just four days, unfortunately at an estimated cost of some 200,000 enemy
casualties, all of which could have been avoided if the Japanese had
surrendered before then unquote

Utter kibosh. This is all American propaganda. History is written by the
victors. The Americans just wanted to evaluate the atomic bomb in a field
trial.

Quote: If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs
can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen,
Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time. Unquote

Have we RGs prevented you from going back to your comfort zones? Certainly,
Rajan, Carmen and Arwin have better use of their time and they spend part of
it on Goanet. And since when has Rajan or Arwin or Carmen for that matter
appointed you their spokesman.

Quote: You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren"
boots like the RG's did before 1961.Unquote

You make a sweeping generalization. Not all RGs were bootlickers. You insult
us NRGs. How would you like it if I said all NRGs lick white boots?

Quote: Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak
for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent
communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being
Japanese and Filipinos. We even have a very popular and successful Governor
of an American state from our community. So, you have everything to gain
and nothing to lose when they give you tangible suggestions trying to help
you. Unquote

That may be. But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian
just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not
be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no
matter how you console yourself.

Quote: Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe
in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-)) unquote.

Bill Clinton may be safe in Harlem or Bronx or Central Park. But then he is
Bill Clinton the husband of Secretary of State Hillary with oodles of Black
cat/ z class or what ever goes for FBI security. But is Mario Gouveia? Come
clean.

Quote: Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct.
There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need
every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the
mess.Unquote.

I am glad that for once you agree with me. There is no place like the
quote"mess" unquote that is Goa and despite the "corruption" and all its
irritants. Unfortunately, the type of help that you are offering - carping,
cribbing and grumbling about Goa is what we can do without. Help like that
from Rajan Parrikar, George Pinto, Arwin Mesquita and countless others who
try to do their best with positive inputs is what we will always appreciate
and applaud. Do gooders who only spout platitudes is what we can do without.
--
\\\
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-14 17:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia wrote:

Unfortunately, there are also some RG and "deshi" NRG chest-thumpers
who have decided that "foren" NRGs are a bigger problem than the
corruption and mess in Goa, who are completely wasting their time and
energy and deflecting attention from what needs to be done.

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:42:45 +0530
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>

No all NRGs are not a problem - only those who think most self-conceitedly that they are the repositories of sanity and wisdom, blah, blah, blah on Goanet and strew their free advice freely.

Mario responds:

Tony, you are not getting it. To begin with, I did not say you said that "all" NRGs are a problem. You and Samir apparently think the NRGs who are trying to help Goa are a bigger problem than the corruption and mess in Goa.

If you RGs knew what the heck you were doing, we would not even be having this discussion. All NRGs could have come to Goa and had a good time, which I still do, instead of wasting their time and energy and money like Rajan, Carmen, George, Arwin, etc.

Tony wrote:

If we RGs are wasting our energy and time, isn't that our business and
prerogative? What is the NRGs perception of what needs to be done is not
necessarily our perception.

Mario responds:

Yes, it is your prerogative to go back to sleep and allow the mess to grow. On the other hand, it is the prerogative of the NRGs who are motivated to try and help change things for the better, sometimes based on their experiences in countries that are much better managed, sometimes by simply using common sense that seems to have eluded so many RGs.

Tony wrote:

And don't the NRGs contribute to a fair share of the corruption? Take the guy from his overseas home who comes on a two week holiday to Goa. He suddenly discovers that the old homestead is now worth a bundle and he needs to dispose of it! He is in a rush - so much to do, so little time. So he toodles off to his friendly Talathi/Panchayat Secretary/Mamlatdar and quietly slips him Rs. 10,000/- After all what is 200 odd Amriki dollars? Now who is promoting corruption.

Mario responds:

Are individuals selling their property the corruption that is making a mess in Goa, or what the buyers are then doing with the property, which is where you RGs have been asleep at the switch?

Mario previously wrote:

No, it is not true that only RGs can do something about it as George
Pinto and Rajan Parrikar and Anil Desai, three "foren" NRGs, have already
demonstrated by their stellar work in Goa. Other "foren" NRG's like Arwin
Mesquita are confronting Goan legislators and Carmen Miranda is trying to
light a fire under local RGs. All this at remarkable personal cost in terms of time and money.

Tony replied:

Do you selectively read posts? Haven't I commended doers like George Pinto
in my previous post when I mentioned adnauseam that if you love Goa,
translate your words into action and don't mealy mouth unwanted,
condescending advice to the RGs. Unless NRGs have the power of the vote and
in substantial quantity, voting patterns will follow traditional lines. We
are the voters. Non-national NRGs cannot change this.

Mario responds:

So, I see that you selectively commend NRGs whom you like. I guess you think Rajan, Carmen, Arwin, Anil, etc. are spending their precious time and money because they don't love Goa, and just want to show the Goan peasants how smart they are. I don't think you know these people. No one who lives in "foren" wastes their time and money carelessly.

But, you have finally put your finger on the problem. It is you RG voters who are the primary problem, which is what I have been saying all along. Nothing is going to seriously change until you stop electing and re-electing corrupt politicians. Even a few to start with would be good.

Mario previously wrote:

I'll give you an example based on the reality of India. India was
going nowhere during its first 50 years since Independence. Corruption and
waste at all levels was rampant and Indians were draining at an alarming
rate to the benefit of other countries. Then suddenly the founding families were gone and common sense began to assert itself in the form of new leadership like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, who doesn't get enough
credit in my opinion for exerting tremendous positive leadership while
knowing when to grab the limelight and when to step back and let others get
the limelight. Look at the difference this has made to India's economy in
just a few years even with the old line communists in their coalition trying desperately to drag them back.

Tony replied:

Manmohan and Sonia are hardly NRIs in the context of this discussion? Pretty dumb if you think so. So also you prove my point that only RIs and RGs can make an effective change.

Mario responds:

Tony, let go of that bull's shempdi or you will hurt yourself:-))

The point I was making was that:

a) India was a mess because of Nehru's socialist policies that resulted in mindless bureaucracy and corruption like bribery, tax evasion and black money, and resources wasted in government run industries for 50 years since independence.

b) People of good will and common sense like Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi have turned things around quite quickly, even though the residual bureaucracy and communist coalition partners are slowing them down.

c) Manmohan is smart enough that he takes all kinds of advice from NRIs and even pushed through the OCI that gives Samir heartburn to encourage NRIs to participate in improving India.

c) Goa can change too if you elect a few people with good will and common sense like local versions of Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi.

Mario previously wrote:

There is corruption from time to time in the countries you have
listed. The difference you seem to be missing is that, in the west, when
corruption is found the perpetrators are prosecuted and brought to justice.
Taking millions just to liquidate a company may look corrupt to you, but if
it was done legally, it could not correctly be described as corrupt in
proper context.

Tony replied:

You miss the point that India, and by implication Goa has a rule of law. In
India if you are caught, you are penalized after due processes of law. Even
Kasab accused of heinous crimes against the nation has a trial. How many of
the KKKlaners gave poor Negros the benefit of a fair trial? Or the Injuns?
Remember, the only good Injun is a dead Injun.

Mario responds:

Tony, you need to stop reading western novels. The KKK was like a white version of the RSS. They never had any government or legal power and are effectively out of business. There are plenty of good Injuns around who are not dead.

If you had any kind of effective legal system in Goa why is there so much bribery and corruption going on? You yourself gave an example of bribery. Your friend George Pinto describes anything he doesn't like in Goa as "illegal".

Mario previously wrote:

This is a false description of what happened. It was Emperor Hirohito and the Japanese leadership who were responsible for the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Tony replied:

Utter kibosh. This is all American propaganda. History is written by the
victors. The Americans just wanted to evaluate the atomic bomb in a field
trial.

Mario responds:

In that case, I get to write the history. It was a pretty effective field trial, wasn't it? Stopped a four year war in four days and saved a lot of lives on our side. Unfortunately it took the intransigence of the Japanese leaders and two bombs to get it through their heads that they were toast. They could have saved lots of lives if they had not attacked Pearl Harbor in the first place.

Mario previously wrote:

If the RG's wake up and start doing something tangible, all the NRGs
can can happily go back to their comfort zones. I'm sure Rajan, Carmen,
Arwin, et. al. have other good uses for their time.

Tony replied:

Have we RGs prevented you from going back to your comfort zones? Certainly,
Rajan, Carmen and Arwin have better use of their time and they spend part of it on Goanet. And since when has Rajan or Arwin or Carmen for that matter appointed you their spokesman.

Mario responds:

To begin with, I am the lone voice on Goanet for reason, truth and peace. Secondly, they are going to get a bill for these services:-))

Mario previously wrote:

You are right. It would hurt my pride if I had to lick any "foren"
boots like the RG's did before 1961.

Tony replied:

You make a sweeping generalization. Not all RGs were bootlickers. You insult us NRGs. How would you like it if I said all NRGs lick white boots?

Mario responds:

You are correct. Only those who were Portuguese stooges were the boot lickers. What was I thinking? Some of my own relatives were freedom fighters. My whole family were warned not to go to Goa until it was cleared of colonist vermin.

The non-American NRGs can speak for themselves. All I know is that the boots of Indian-Americans are in great demand by bootlickers in America.

Mario previously wrote:

Once again, you are wrong on your facts. I'll let the others speak
for themselves, but American NRI's are one of the top three most affluent
communities when ranked by family income in America, the other two being
Japanese and Filipinos.

Tony replied:

That may be. But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no matter how you console yourself.

Mario responds:

Once again, the Brits, Australians and Canadians can speak for themselves, but dark skinned Indians live in the most affluent areas in every part of America. There is no such thing as a WASP-only locality in the US. It would be illegal for one thing. If you came here I could show you.

Mario previously wrote:

Even Bill Clinton has his offices in Harlem. Harlem is about as safe
in the middle of the night than any beach in Goa:-))

Tony replied:

Bill Clinton may be safe in Harlem or Bronx or Central Park. But then he is
Bill Clinton the husband of Secretary of State Hillary with oodles of Black
cat/ z class or what ever goes for FBI security. But is Mario Gouveia? Come
clean.

Mario responds:

I always visit Harlem when I am in New York because some of the best music is to be found there. The brothers treat me like one of them because they want my business. Of course I could run into a druggie who needs a fix, but I have that same risk whenever I visit Goa, even in my own neighborhood of Miramar Beach, even with Babush as a neighbor:-))

Mario previously wrote:

Home is where the heart is, Tony. But, you are absolutely correct.
There's no place like Goa at the moment, which is precisely why you need
every bit of the help being offered by the NRGs to clean up the
mess.

Tony replied:

I am glad that for once you agree with me. There is no place like the
quote"mess" unquote that is Goa and despite the "corruption" and all its
irritants. Unfortunately, the type of help that you are offering - carping,
cribbing and grumbling about Goa is what we can do without. Help like that
from Rajan Parrikar, George Pinto, Arwin Mesquita and countless others who
try to do their best with positive inputs is what we will always appreciate
and applaud. Do gooders who only spout platitudes is what we can do without.

Mario responds:

If by "carping, cribbing and grumbling" you mean reminding RGs of who was asleep while the mess was being made, and need to wake up, I plead guilty.

If by "carping, cribbing and grumbling" you mean getting you RGs to stop attacking NRGs for trying to wake you up after another long siesta after the CRZ protests, I plead guilty.

If you appreciate Rajan, Carmen, George, Arwin, Anil and others like them, then my work is done. I only got involved because you and Samir were inexplicably attacking NRGs for tring to help you.

Maybe, your next lengthy "sermao" should be addressed to Samir.
lyrawmn
2010-01-16 20:24:28 UTC
Permalink
--- On Wed, 1/13/10, Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com> wrote:
?
Post by Tony de Sa
But you black skinned American/ Britisher/ Australian/ Canadian
just try buying property in a WASP only locality. Racial prejudice may not
be overt but it is still there. You are still a 'second class' citizen no
matter how you console yourself.

I. Nunes questions:
?
After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa,? Mr. D'Sa?

Do you still maintain?First Class status, albeit a subjugated status?in your own land?
?
Further, and importantly, how do you reconcile the pervasive and corrosive caste system with your ideals of equality and opportunity for all Goans??
?

?
Tony de Sa
2010-01-17 17:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Exmo Sr. (Exma Sra?) I Nunes,

I am not sure whether I am adressing a gent or a lady as neither the name I
Nunes nor the email id reveal your sex, Not that I am sexist, but it would
be polite to address you with the appropriate salutation and your name with
the informality of email.
But I digress.
?
Post by lyrawmn
After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who
actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as
publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa,? Mr. D'Sa?

Do you still maintain?First Class status, albeit a subjugated status?in your
own land?
?
Further, and importantly, how do you reconcile the pervasive and corrosive
caste system with your ideals of equality and opportunity for all Goans??

What is under discussion in my post to which you have given this reply is
whether western countries as we call them are biased against Indians and
thereby goans and whether Indians/ Goans are second class citizens or not.
Please answer to the point and don't draw red herrings. The prevailing
status in Goa is not under question but you may start a separate thread and
I will answer your arguement appropriately.
Regards,
Tony
--
\\\
Tony de Sa
tonydesa at gmail.com
M : +91 9975 162 897
Ph. : +91 832 2470 148

^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v
Mario Goveia
2010-01-17 21:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:24:28 -0800 (PST)
From: lyrawmn <lyrawmn at yahoo.com>

After having in effect ceded control of North Goa to white foreigners who actively and overtly discriminate against native Goans and Indians as publicized, what does that say of the status quo in Goa, Mr. D'Sa?

Mario observes:

Oh, I get it. Those WASP-only areas where Indians are not allowed to buy homes are actually in Goa!
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