Discussion:
The debate on non-reservations
(too old to reply)
Frederick [FN] Noronha
2006-05-01 18:09:49 UTC
Permalink
The debate on non-reservations
(Author known --FN)

Whether you are against or for reservations, here is an (MILLENIA) OLD ANGLE : -))

I think we should abolish reservations in all fields of endeavour. I completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this.

Let us start with reservations in the dehumanising jobs -- e.g. scavanging, cleaning the roads, prostituting of womenfolk in squalid red-light quarters etc. It is wholly unfair that this be preserved for only one section of society. In all fairness of things, some of these 'posts' need also to be 'opened up' to the self-appointed elites within our society. Only then could we expect people to be more sensitive to how dehumanising these activities really area. All those who are against reservations, should come out and stand up for their right to take on such jobs.

Secondly, we need to fight against reservations in certain professions, such as leather-work and shoe-making. If this caste-based reservations is continued, then how can our Gaitondes make it internationally to the global shoe grade, at a time when there's money in leather? This is most unfair.

Next, let us also fight against reservations that allow deprived sections of society a fair entry point (and let us also pretend that there are 'reservations' in exams). Never mind that, on the other hand, we have shown our eagerness to allow these 'inefficient' OBCs and SC/STs to win medals for the nation in international competitive and sporting events, or even die -- again on a 'reserved' quota, which we can't afford to abolish -- in the greater glory of communal conflict that seeks to take India back to the sixteenth century.

Further, though we are against reservations, we reserve the right to pretend that nine-tenths of the Indian population is inefficient, uncapable, and inept. We reserve the right to ignore the cover story in the OUTLOOK magazine, which cited cases of candidates who entered via reserved seats and went on to make brilliant academic careers for themselves.

We also reserve the right to pretend that all those who get entry to tightly-controlled access points through reservations are actually allowed to pass exams through reservations. And, of course, we reserve the right to pretend that the Indian bureaucracy, business class, academia and all other major levers of power are *not* functioning like one huge reserved quota for a very tiny, birth-defined 'elite' whose superior brainpower has however not ameliorated the harsh conditions of life for the average citizen of this country.

Let's continue raving against reservations, and yet maintain one of the most inflexible system of 'reservations' in the planet.

Long live the good breed of politicans like the author of the article below... :-))

The debate on reservations
(Author unknown)

Whether you are for or against reservations, here is a
NEW ANGLE :-))

I think we should have job reservations in all fields
of endeavor. I completely support the PM and all the
politicians for promoting this.

Let's start the reservation with our cricket team.
We should have 10 percent reservation for Muslims, 30
percent for OBC, SC/ST, etc.

Cricket rules should be modified accordingly.
The boundary circle should be reduced for an SC/ST
player. The four hit by an OBC player should be
considered as a six and a six hit by a OBC player
should be counted as 8 runs. An OBC player scoring 60
runs should be declared as a century.

We should influence ICC and make rules so that the
pace bowlers like Shoaib Akhtar should not bowl fast
balls to our OBC player. Bowlers should bowl maximum
speed of 80 kilometer per hour to an OBC player. Any
delivery above this speed should be made illegal.

Also we should have reservation in Olympics. In the
100 meters race, an OBC athlete should run only 80
meters.

There can be reservation in Government jobs also.
Let's recruit SC/ST and OBC pilots for aircrafts which
are carrying the ministers and politicians (that
should really help the country...)

Ensure that only SC/ST and OBC doctors do the
operations for the ministers and other politicians.
(Another way of helping the country...)

Let's be creative and think of more ways and means to
guide INDIA forward and "help" all Indians...

Long live the good breed of politicans like ARJUN
SINGH :-))

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick Noronha 784 Near Convent, Sonarbhat SALIGAO GOA India
Freelance Journalist TEL: +91-832-2409490 MOBILE: 9822122436
Skype/Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha www.bytesforall.net
Mario Goveia
2006-05-02 13:53:40 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick [FN] Noronha" <fred at bytesforall.org>
Post by Frederick [FN] Noronha
The debate on non-reservations
(Author known --FN)
Let us start with reservations in the dehumanising
jobs -- e.g. scavanging, cleaning the roads,
prostituting of womenfolk in squalid red-light
quarters etc. It is wholly unfair that this be
preserved for only one section of society. In all
fairness of things, some of these 'posts' need also
to be 'opened up' to the self-appointed elites
within our society. Only then could we expect people
to be more sensitive to how dehumanising these
activities really area. All those who are against
reservations, should come out and stand up for their
right to take on such jobs.
Secondly, we need to fight against reservations in
certain professions, such as leather-work and
shoe-making. If this caste-based reservations is
continued, then how can our Gaitondes make it
internationally to the global shoe grade, at a time
when there's money in leather? This is most unfair.
Next, let us also fight against reservations that
allow deprived sections of society a fair entry
point (and let us also pretend that there are
'reservations' in exams). Never mind that, on the
other hand, we have shown our eagerness to allow
these 'inefficient' OBCs and SC/STs to win medals
for the nation in international competitive and
sporting events, or even die -- again on a
'reserved' quota, which we can't afford to abolish
-- in the greater glory of communal conflict that
seeks to take India back to the sixteenth century.
Further, though we are against reservations, we
reserve the right to pretend that nine-tenths of the
Indian population is inefficient, uncapable, and
inept. We reserve the right to ignore the cover
story in the OUTLOOK magazine, which cited cases of
candidates who entered via reserved seats and went
on to make brilliant academic careers for
themselves.
We also reserve the right to pretend that all those
who get entry to tightly-controlled access points
through reservations are actually allowed to pass
exams through reservations. And, of course, we
reserve the right to pretend that the Indian
bureaucracy, business class, academia and all other
major levers of power are *not* functioning like one
huge reserved quota for a very tiny, birth-defined
'elite' whose superior brainpower has however not
ameliorated the harsh conditions of life for the
average citizen of this country.
Let's continue raving against reservations, and yet
maintain one of the most inflexible system of
'reservations' in the planet.
Mario observes:
To the Unknown Author --FN
Good idea, Unknown! Karl would be very proud:-))
Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-02 14:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Qudos to you! Dear Fred!

Reversing the 'Caste System' is the 'need of the hour'! We cannot take away
the caste out of anyone; nor would we want to; however we can definitely
demand that these caste groups do all the types of jobs for their caste
group at least; all the smart and so called lowly jobs; No more
discrimination can be tolerated in reserving the sordid jobs for certain
other castes and no-caste people!

The high and middle caste people must be made to do all of their own work!
since they think they are a race apart! This will surely put an end to the
discriminatory behavior of Indians! I have always said that this dirty
Indian Culture which belongs to ancient times and has yet to evolve modern,
and in practice is "EVIL"; this which degrades some HUMAN BEINGS and at the
same time 'worships' animals and other weird deities. The URL should be:
Worst Wicked Weird.Indianculture.

The last para quoted at the end: "Lets continue raving against reservations
and yet maintain one of the most 'inflexible' system of 'reservations' on
the planet."

That says it all. Incredible India Indeed!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.


Frederick [FN] Noronha" <fred at bytesforall.org> wrote:

Subject: [Goanet] The debate on non-reservations
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 23:39:49 +0530
I think we should abolish reservations in all fields of endeavour. I
completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this.
Let us start with reservations in the dehumanising jobs -- e.g. scavanging,
cleaning the roads, prostituting of womenfolk in squalid red-light quarters
etc. It is wholly unfair that this be preserved for only one section of
society. In all fairness of things, some of these 'posts' need also to be
'opened up' to the self-appointed elites within our society. Only then
could we expect people to be more sensitive to how dehumanising these
activities really area. All those who are against reservations, should come
out and stand up for their right to take on such jobs.
Secondly, we need to fight against reservations in certain professions,
such as leather-work and shoe-making. If this caste-based reservations is
continued, then how can our Gaitondes make it internationally to the global
shoe grade, at a time when there's money in leather? This is most unfair.
Next, let us also fight against reservations that allow deprived sections
of society a fair entry point (and let us also pretend that there are
'reservations' in exams). Never mind that, on the other hand, we have shown
our eagerness to allow these 'inefficient' OBCs and SC/STs to win medals
for the nation in international competitive and sporting events, or even
die -- again on a 'reserved' quota, which we can't afford to abolish -- in
the greater glory of communal conflict that seeks to take India back to the
sixteenth century.
"Let's continue raving against reservations, and yet maintain one of the
most inflexible system of 'reservations' in the planet".
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-03 05:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Dear Nasci,
While I understand your revulsion at practices, such
as sati and the caste system, that are totally
unacceptable in our modern context, I'm afraid the
statements you make below, make your views a little
bigoted and uninformed.

You have used the terms culture and religion
interchangeably. And I grant you that because
ultimately religion becomes nothing more than a
cultural badge.

However, Indian culture/religion is not at all about
worshiping animal deities. This is just a superficial
understanding of the religion. Vedic scripture which
dates back at least 5000 years talks about existential
concepts which western philosophers would not ponder
upon until much later. Sumerian or Canaanite mythology
of the time, which became the basis of our
Judaic-Christian religion, references nature and the
many temperaments of nature. It rarely references or
deals in details with the "soul".

I wish for everyone to take an interest in other
religions. Not as a spiritual journey but more as a
journey into other people's cultural roots.

I do agree with you Nasci that most religions, whether
Muslim, Christian or Hindu have stopped evolving over
time and the repercussions of this lack of evolution
has become the niche-market of every fundamentalist.
Our most profound thoughts seem to be behind us. Our
philosophers and saints all dead or crucified. What we
are left with today is loud rhetoric which is echoed
in the name of God and self-righteousness.

Elisabeth
-------------------------------

Nasci wrote:
this dirty
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Indian Culture which belongs to ancient times and
has yet to evolve modern,
and in practice is "EVIL"; this which degrades some
HUMAN BEINGS and at the
same time 'worships' animals and other weird
Worst Wicked Weird.Indianculture.
__________________________________________________
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Frederick Noronha
2006-05-03 08:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
To the Unknown Author --FN
Good idea, Unknown! Karl would be very proud:-))
Firstly, the author is *not* unknown. I stand by my views.

Secondly, not just Karl, but also the Advocate or the Apostle of our
Profession * and Gautama would have echoed such sentiments, I'm sure.
In fact, anyone who has some regard for the basic principles of social
justice would broadly agree with the sentiments expressed (while there
is obviously much scope for discussion over the detail).

Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and The Virtues of
Selfishness, then there's nothing here for you! FN

* http://tinyurl.com/q68ek
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | fred at bytesforall.org
Independent Journalist | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
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Mario Goveia
2006-05-03 16:04:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frederick Noronha
Post by Mario Goveia
To the Unknown Author --FN
Good idea, Unknown! Karl would be very proud:-))
Firstly, the author is *not* unknown. I stand by my
views.
Mario observes:
Fred,
I should have recognized that "Unknown Author --FN"
was you:-))
BTW, Karl would be even more proud that you still
stand by his views that have been rejected by all the
major proponents that have actually tried it.
Post by Frederick Noronha
Secondly, not just Karl, but also the Advocate or
the Apostle of our Profession * and Gautama would
have echoed such sentiments, I'm sure. In fact,
anyone who has some regard for the basic principles
of social justice would broadly agree with the
sentiments expressed (while there is obviously much
scope for discussion over the detail).
Mario observes:
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in the
good intentions of the chef(s). If the admirable
search for social justice had been achieved by the
methods insisted on by the proponents mentioned above,
after trying so hard for so many decades, often using
coercive force, they would have been continued, not
discontinued.
If the "discussion over the detail" is to attempt yet
another version of a system which fails to recognize
the inherent ability of every individual and
subjugates these to the "wisdom" of a ruling elite,
then it is a recipe for additional failure.
Post by Frederick Noronha
Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and The
Virtues of Selfishness, then there's nothing here
for you!
Mario observes:
It's not what there is for "me" that counts, but for
most of the people most of the time. Besides, I favor
philosophers like Adam Smith, Friedrich Von Hayek,
Joseph Schumpeter and Milton Friedman, rather than a
hedonist libertine like Ayn Rand, who might evn fit
your characterisation of selfishness.
What you see as "selfishness", and its corollary
"greed", which are negative traits, leads you to
suggest that "selfless" and well-intentioned elites
know what's best for everyone else. That is the
essence of what the proponents you seem to favor
believe, and it is the fundamental flaw in their
belief and in the failure of their attempts to "help"
those "less intelligent" than them.
Any system that depends on "selfishness" and "greed"
would fail fairly quickly because of the negative
impact of these emotions on others who would then
react to the "selfishness" and "greed" to the
detriment of those who were so inclined. A recent
example in the US are the executives of companies like
Enron and Tyco and others, who are all on their way to
long prison terms and eternal disgrace.
The systems that have succeeded in helping most of
their people most of the time tap into the positive
trait called "enlightened self interest", which, by
definition, recognizes that individual and national
success depends not on "selfishness" and "greed", nor
on the patronage of a self-serving elite, but on a
serious and honest attempt to achieve a long-term
win-win philosophy for every individual.
That, in my never humble opinion, is what true social
justice should be all about.
Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-03 12:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elisabeth,

I wish to respond here, particularly because it enables me to further
explain, my revulsion when 'those practiced horrors' in the name of
religion, that have been ingested into the majority culture, for so many
centuries, are not taken care of, even in this day and age and disposed off
into the dust bin where they belong. I do not want to hurt anyone; but I do
demand change for the better!

Instead these are being propogated , endured and slyly propped up as 'good'
in the name of ethos, by the majority Hindu community. Worse that, this is
done to maintain dominant control of the so called low born by the high
born, for eternity?? There should be a Cultural Revolution, but then again,
easier said than done.

I surely understand and appreciate some of the good philosophy and thought
underlying Hindu and other religious theory and theology.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT AT ALL. PLEASE PUT THE GOOD INTO PRACTICE!

But all that philosophy can never undo or compensate all the horrors and
real harm that is perpetrated, in practice. Besides this is what affects
all; including non believers , in our day to day lives. This is my main
concern and that is why I happen to come out so strongly on these matters.
Why does this mythology not equate all Men. Why do these people not go out
to their fellow men with a human hand and a human touch; That leads me to
conclude that this is not religion but just a collection of myths, used to
subjugate and dehumanise 'other' people.

What happens 'in practice' and 'on the ground' is what matters most and
ultimately, this is the 'essence' of the bigger problem; and not what is
written in ancient philosophies. There must be 'Desegregation and an end to
'Apartheid' and Racist behavior, in every walk of life, in India!

Only then will India be freed of this 'yoke' and men (George, I'm not being
sexist here) will become more productive and social cohesion will come
about. Then only can India call itself 'a great society'; far from the
'hotch potch' or (amcheh Bhasaen) 'poch pochit' society that the majority
culture is today!

I WANT iNDIA TO BE GREAT FOR ALL OF ITS PEOPLE! THIS IS my MISSION and sole
PURPOSE in HITTING OUT AT THE WRONGS; no other motives.

I am not particularly bothered about 'other forms of worship' as such; but
my Indianness I cannot shed when I am in the company of my own type or when
I am abroad (outside India). I am almost always confronted by fellow workers
and neighbors etc: with these obscene beliefs and practices; as a result I
have to keep telling everyone that I do not believe in and or practice these
absurdities! That I am a Christian and have been enlightened!

This Indian stigma then becomes a 'trait' ascribed to all Indians
irrespective! Just like all muslims become suspect terrorists! That is why I
am compelled to revolt at every opportunity possible. I know you and people
like me, will understand what I am implying; but what I really want is for
all goanetters and all Indians to come to their senses and have a real
introspection and bring about a 'Fundamental Change' in attitudes and
practice.

Now in a lighter vein; Elisabeth! I have become a bit envious of your date
with Mario! In contrast I am offering you a 'Chateaubriand Steak' (for two)
prepared personally 'medium rare' , with a bottle of the finest 'Sparkling
Red Burgandy' on ice, to go with it! Life is GOOD on the banks of the river
Yarra! And all I want is: Hah, Hah! Hummm Hummm! jolly good company! Will
you?

See Ya!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
While I understand your revulsion at practices, such
as sati and the caste system, that are totally
unacceptable in our modern context, I'm afraid the
statements you make below, make your views a little
bigoted and uninformed.
However, Indian culture/religion is not at all about
worshiping animal deities. This is just a superficial
understanding of the religion.
I do agree with you Nasci that most religions, whether
Muslim, Christian or Hindu have stopped evolving over
time and the repercussions of this lack of evolution
has become the niche-market of every fundamentalist.
Our most profound thoughts seem to be behind us. Our
philosophers and saints all dead or crucified. What we
are left with today is loud rhetoric which is echoed
in the name of God and self-righteousness.
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-03 17:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Nasci,
Is that Burgundy Australian? Make it a fine
Californian Chardonnay and you have a date. Better
still make it Vinicola Port Wine No. 5, served out of
a plastic bottle :))
Elisabeth

----------------------------------
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Now in a lighter vein; Elisabeth! I have become a
bit envious of your date
with Mario! In contrast I am offering you a
'Chateaubriand Steak' (for two)
prepared personally 'medium rare' , with a bottle of
the finest 'Sparkling
Red Burgandy' on ice, to go with it! Life is GOOD on
the banks of the river
Yarra! And all I want is: Hah, Hah! Hummm Hummm!
jolly good company! Will
you?
See Ya!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
__________________________________________________
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cornel
2006-05-04 10:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Nasci
Wouldn't a crocodile steak be better on the banks of the Yarra? I only
discovered the availability of crocodile when asked if I wanted it in my
burger in Cairns. I was as surprised as when offered horse in Belgium once.
I did eat the horse but not the croc!
Cornel
PS The plastic bottles for wine in Goa took my edge off Vinicola recently.
Why plastic?
----- Original Message -----
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Now in a lighter vein; Elisabeth! I have become a
bit envious of your date
with Mario! In contrast I am offering you a
'Chateaubriand Steak' (for two)
prepared personally 'medium rare' , with a bottle of
the finest 'Sparkling
Red Burgandy' on ice, to go with it! Life is GOOD on
the banks of the river
Yarra! And all I want is: Hah, Hah! Hummm Hummm!
jolly good company! Will
you?
See Ya!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under
cornel
2006-05-04 10:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Nasci
Wouldn't a crocodile steak be better on the banks of the Yarra? I only
discovered the availability of crocodile when asked if I wanted it in my
burger in Cairns. I was as surprised as when offered horse in Belgium once.
I did eat the horse but not the croc!
Cornel
PS The plastic bottles for wine in Goa took my edge off Vinicola recently.
Why plastic?
----- Original Message -----
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Now in a lighter vein; Elisabeth! I have become a
bit envious of your date
with Mario! In contrast I am offering you a
'Chateaubriand Steak' (for two)
prepared personally 'medium rare' , with a bottle of
the finest 'Sparkling
Red Burgandy' on ice, to go with it! Life is GOOD on
the banks of the river
Yarra! And all I want is: Hah, Hah! Hummm Hummm!
jolly good company! Will
you?
See Ya!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under
cornel
2006-05-04 10:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Nasci
Wouldn't a crocodile steak be better on the banks of the Yarra? I only
discovered the availability of crocodile when asked if I wanted it in my
burger in Cairns. I was as surprised as when offered horse in Belgium once.
I did eat the horse but not the croc!
Cornel
PS The plastic bottles for wine in Goa took my edge off Vinicola recently.
Why plastic?
----- Original Message -----
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Now in a lighter vein; Elisabeth! I have become a
bit envious of your date
with Mario! In contrast I am offering you a
'Chateaubriand Steak' (for two)
prepared personally 'medium rare' , with a bottle of
the finest 'Sparkling
Red Burgandy' on ice, to go with it! Life is GOOD on
the banks of the river
Yarra! And all I want is: Hah, Hah! Hummm Hummm!
jolly good company! Will
you?
See Ya!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under
Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-03 17:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The systems that have succeeded in helping most of
their people most of the time tap into the positive
trait called "enlightened self interest", which, by
definition, recognizes that individual and national
success depends not on "selfishness" and "greed",
nor
on the patronage of a self-serving elite, but on a
serious and honest attempt to achieve a long-term
win-win philosophy for every individual.
That, in my never humble opinion, is what true
social justice should be all about.
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0





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Helga do Rosario Gomes
2006-05-05 11:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps Mervyn, you should also explain why Canada gives first preference
for jobs in Canadian Universities and research institutions to Canadians.
Would you not want the best of professors and scientists especially if you
could attract them? Barring a few high security jobs you don't find this
'protectionism' in the USA. That's why our Universities have produced so
much valuable research. In the USA even a foreign post doctoral worker with
a two
year visa can apply and get research funds independent of his supervisor.
Helga
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0
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Helga do Rosario Gomes
2006-05-05 11:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps Mervyn, you should also explain why Canada gives first preference
for jobs in Canadian Universities and research institutions to Canadians.
Would you not want the best of professors and scientists especially if you
could attract them? Barring a few high security jobs you don't find this
'protectionism' in the USA. That's why our Universities have produced so
much valuable research. In the USA even a foreign post doctoral worker with
a two
year visa can apply and get research funds independent of his supervisor.
Helga
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0
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Helga do Rosario Gomes
2006-05-05 11:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps Mervyn, you should also explain why Canada gives first preference
for jobs in Canadian Universities and research institutions to Canadians.
Would you not want the best of professors and scientists especially if you
could attract them? Barring a few high security jobs you don't find this
'protectionism' in the USA. That's why our Universities have produced so
much valuable research. In the USA even a foreign post doctoral worker with
a two
year visa can apply and get research funds independent of his supervisor.
Helga
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-03 19:57:19 UTC
Permalink
First of all, Mario citing a flaming liberal like
Friedrick von Hayek is like the devil quoting the
scripture:) and then both Fred and Mario kick Ayn Rand
in the stomach. That's too much for a girl like me to
take in one morning :))

Can you guys please wear your labels neat and nice, so
I know what I'm dealing with :))

Elisabeth
-------------------------------------------
Post by Mario Goveia
Post by Frederick Noronha
Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and
The
Post by Frederick Noronha
Virtues of Selfishness, then there's nothing here
for you!
It's not what there is for "me" that counts, but for
most of the people most of the time. Besides, I
favor
philosophers like Adam Smith, Friedrich Von Hayek,
Joseph Schumpeter and Milton Friedman, rather than a
hedonist libertine like Ayn Rand, who might evn fit
your characterisation of selfishness.
What you see as "selfishness", and its corollary
"greed", which are negative traits, leads you to
suggest that "selfless" and well-intentioned elites
know what's best for everyone else. That is the
essence of what the proponents you seem to favor
believe, and it is the fundamental flaw in their
belief and in the failure of their attempts to
"help"
those "less intelligent" than them.
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VABaliga
2006-05-04 04:17:56 UTC
Permalink
Nasci wrote:

Instead these are being propogated , endured and slyly propped up as 'good'
in the name of ethos, by the majority Hindu community. Worse that, this is
done to maintain dominant control of the so called low born by the high
born, for eternity?? There should be a Cultural Revolution, but then again,
easier said than done.

I surely understand and appreciate some of the good philosophy and thought
underlying Hindu and other religious theory and theology.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT AT ALL. PLEASE PUT THE GOOD INTO PRACTICE!

Nasci,

The Caste System is Hinduism's and India's curse.Perhaps you may wish to
clarify why both Hindus and Catholics in Goa practise the caste system to
this
day and why

there is such a "Bamonn" and "Chaddo" complex among the Elite?Or are they
still awaiting enlightenment like you?

Dev Tumka Boren Korum.

Vasant
Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-04 13:16:31 UTC
Permalink
Cornel,
Cairns is in Queensland, and is a hot spot there, being a gateway to the
great Australian Barrier Reef. I do not know of Croc meat; but some places
have service with Kangaroo meat if some one wants it. The Yarra is
Melbourne's ;muddy'// river; not so bad'; developed all over, in the city
area with beaut parks, restaurants alfresco style, and shopping malls with
boutique shops, etc. A wide and long promenade along the river, with bicycle
tracks is one of the highlights, of the Yarra. You probably seen the sheer
beauty of the area, if you watched the Commonwealth Games recently.

Beef is one or Australia's finer meat produce; and is exported in large
quantities specially to Japan and SE Asia. Mouth watering! I go for Beef and
Veal, most times; hate lamb, as it also smells a bit compared to Goat meat.

But there is also, so called 'Kobe Beef' produced in Japan in limited
quantities, is very good! This Kobe Beef is produced by feeding Cattle with
imported special Hay from the USA and other nourishments like beer and Saki
etc. There is a chain of restaurants in Japan which cater exclusively to
Kobe Beef. Only those who visit Japan know about it. Otherwise people think
that Japan has no beef of its own.

As for Vinicola in plastic bottles, I am surprised too! As recently, in
Margao at Christmas time I was presented with Vinicola in a glass (Ketchup
size) bottle, by a Goan Lady from London on holiday.

First time I ate 'horse meat' was in Hamburg, Germany; when a German friend
intoduced the same to me as 'Wurst' the popular German sausage. I believe
they learnt to eat horse during the War Days, when meat was scarce; Only
certain parts of horse are eaten; I like the taste though; could not make
out the difference.

See Ya!
Nasci Caldeira.
Post by cornel
Nasci
Wouldn't a crocodile steak be better on the banks of the Yarra? I only
discovered the availability of crocodile when asked if I wanted it in my
burger in Cairns. I was as surprised as when offered horse in Belgium once.
I did eat the horse but not the croc!
Cornel
PS The plastic bottles for wine in Goa took my edge off Vinicola recently.
Why plastic?
Gabe Menezes
2006-05-04 23:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Cornel,
...........................
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Beef is one or Australia's finer meat produce; and is exported in large
quantities specially to Japan and SE Asia. Mouth watering! I go for Beef and
Veal, most times; hate lamb, as it also smells a bit compared to Goat meat.
But there is also, so called 'Kobe Beef' produced in Japan in limited
quantities, is very good! This Kobe Beef is produced by feeding Cattle with
imported special Hay from the USA and other nourishments like beer and Saki
etc. There is a chain of restaurants in Japan which cater exclusively to
Kobe Beef. Only those who visit Japan know about it. Otherwise people think
that Japan has no beef of its own.
Comment: Blah, blah, blah and blah.......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4894952.stm

'Most expensive sandwich' on sale
Hungry shoppers are being offered the chance to eat a gourmet
sandwich, but the ?85 price tag might be too much for some to swallow.

The McDonald sandwich - named after its creator Scott McDonald, the
chef at London department store Selfridges - is said to be the world's
most expensive.

Its cost is down to the Wagyu beef that makes up most of the filling,
packed in a 24-hour fermented sour dough bread.

There have been at least five advance orders placed for the 21oz (595g) meal.

If you are a food lover, this represents great value for money
Ewan Venters
Selfridges food director

Wagyu cattle are one of the most expensive breeds in the world.

The Japanese cows are raised on a special diet, including beer and grain.

They are supposed to be regularly massaged with sake, the Japanese
rice wine, to tenderize the flesh.
--
DIE DULCI FREURE,
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
cornel
2006-05-06 13:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi Nasci
Many thanks for the exchange of info on different delicacies. I did spend
time on the lazy Yarra and enjoyed Melbourne very much, Christmas 2003,
even though it was incredibly cold that year. In contrast to London and UK
cities generally, Australian cities are remarkably lacking in congestion and
most pleasurable for visits. Your population of 20 million contrasts sharply
with some 60 million in a much smaller UK and you have all the space and
varied landscape one could wish for, including around hot and very dry
Uluru, (spelling?), lovely red earth, just like parts of Goa. I'd like to
visit OZ again and may do so in April 2008 taking in Western Australia for
the first time.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nasci Caldeira" <nascy_cal at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Goanet] Re a crocodile burger
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Cornel,
Cairns is in Queensland, and is a hot spot there, being a gateway to the
great Australian Barrier Reef. I do not know of Croc meat; but some places
have service with Kangaroo meat if some one wants it.
Gabe Menezes
2006-05-04 23:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Cornel,
...........................
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Beef is one or Australia's finer meat produce; and is exported in large
quantities specially to Japan and SE Asia. Mouth watering! I go for Beef and
Veal, most times; hate lamb, as it also smells a bit compared to Goat meat.
But there is also, so called 'Kobe Beef' produced in Japan in limited
quantities, is very good! This Kobe Beef is produced by feeding Cattle with
imported special Hay from the USA and other nourishments like beer and Saki
etc. There is a chain of restaurants in Japan which cater exclusively to
Kobe Beef. Only those who visit Japan know about it. Otherwise people think
that Japan has no beef of its own.
Comment: Blah, blah, blah and blah.......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4894952.stm

'Most expensive sandwich' on sale
Hungry shoppers are being offered the chance to eat a gourmet
sandwich, but the ?85 price tag might be too much for some to swallow.

The McDonald sandwich - named after its creator Scott McDonald, the
chef at London department store Selfridges - is said to be the world's
most expensive.

Its cost is down to the Wagyu beef that makes up most of the filling,
packed in a 24-hour fermented sour dough bread.

There have been at least five advance orders placed for the 21oz (595g) meal.

If you are a food lover, this represents great value for money
Ewan Venters
Selfridges food director

Wagyu cattle are one of the most expensive breeds in the world.

The Japanese cows are raised on a special diet, including beer and grain.

They are supposed to be regularly massaged with sake, the Japanese
rice wine, to tenderize the flesh.
--
DIE DULCI FREURE,
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
cornel
2006-05-06 13:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi Nasci
Many thanks for the exchange of info on different delicacies. I did spend
time on the lazy Yarra and enjoyed Melbourne very much, Christmas 2003,
even though it was incredibly cold that year. In contrast to London and UK
cities generally, Australian cities are remarkably lacking in congestion and
most pleasurable for visits. Your population of 20 million contrasts sharply
with some 60 million in a much smaller UK and you have all the space and
varied landscape one could wish for, including around hot and very dry
Uluru, (spelling?), lovely red earth, just like parts of Goa. I'd like to
visit OZ again and may do so in April 2008 taking in Western Australia for
the first time.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nasci Caldeira" <nascy_cal at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Goanet] Re a crocodile burger
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Cornel,
Cairns is in Queensland, and is a hot spot there, being a gateway to the
great Australian Barrier Reef. I do not know of Croc meat; but some places
have service with Kangaroo meat if some one wants it.
Gabe Menezes
2006-05-04 23:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Cornel,
...........................
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Beef is one or Australia's finer meat produce; and is exported in large
quantities specially to Japan and SE Asia. Mouth watering! I go for Beef and
Veal, most times; hate lamb, as it also smells a bit compared to Goat meat.
But there is also, so called 'Kobe Beef' produced in Japan in limited
quantities, is very good! This Kobe Beef is produced by feeding Cattle with
imported special Hay from the USA and other nourishments like beer and Saki
etc. There is a chain of restaurants in Japan which cater exclusively to
Kobe Beef. Only those who visit Japan know about it. Otherwise people think
that Japan has no beef of its own.
Comment: Blah, blah, blah and blah.......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4894952.stm

'Most expensive sandwich' on sale
Hungry shoppers are being offered the chance to eat a gourmet
sandwich, but the ?85 price tag might be too much for some to swallow.

The McDonald sandwich - named after its creator Scott McDonald, the
chef at London department store Selfridges - is said to be the world's
most expensive.

Its cost is down to the Wagyu beef that makes up most of the filling,
packed in a 24-hour fermented sour dough bread.

There have been at least five advance orders placed for the 21oz (595g) meal.

If you are a food lover, this represents great value for money
Ewan Venters
Selfridges food director

Wagyu cattle are one of the most expensive breeds in the world.

The Japanese cows are raised on a special diet, including beer and grain.

They are supposed to be regularly massaged with sake, the Japanese
rice wine, to tenderize the flesh.
--
DIE DULCI FREURE,
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
cornel
2006-05-06 13:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi Nasci
Many thanks for the exchange of info on different delicacies. I did spend
time on the lazy Yarra and enjoyed Melbourne very much, Christmas 2003,
even though it was incredibly cold that year. In contrast to London and UK
cities generally, Australian cities are remarkably lacking in congestion and
most pleasurable for visits. Your population of 20 million contrasts sharply
with some 60 million in a much smaller UK and you have all the space and
varied landscape one could wish for, including around hot and very dry
Uluru, (spelling?), lovely red earth, just like parts of Goa. I'd like to
visit OZ again and may do so in April 2008 taking in Western Australia for
the first time.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nasci Caldeira" <nascy_cal at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Goanet] Re a crocodile burger
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Cornel,
Cairns is in Queensland, and is a hot spot there, being a gateway to the
great Australian Barrier Reef. I do not know of Croc meat; but some places
have service with Kangaroo meat if some one wants it.
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-04 14:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Dear Cornel,
Seems like you enjoyed your trip. I think the wine is
bottled in plastic rather than glass probably because
plastic is cheaper.

You should have tried the croc. I've never had but
have had alligator here in the US. It's sort of like
chicken and with a little tartar sauce can be quite
nice.

I also agree with you that the prospect of India
joining superpower status within the next few decades
is a myth. Even with foreign investment and the
multiplier effect in full force, it cannot generate
enough ripples to bring 60% of the population out of
poverty within a short span of time. Simultaneously
unlike China, no concerted efforts are being made to
curb population by either party.

Even Goldman Sachs in their follow up to BRICs, make
note of the fact that despite huge strides being made
in the aggregate economy, personal incomes will be
only a fraction of those enjoyed in the west.
Increases in GDP of countries with such large
population means little to the PCI.

Also, the CPI in India, continuously puts a wrench in
the corporate wheels of India by objecting to
dismantling of PSUs, increases in foreign investment
in vital sectors and its general dislike of anything
be it investment or ideas imported from the West. We
have to overhaul the political system itself by
reducing the impact of regional politics if we want to
cohesively impact national economics.

And that's my morning dose of pontificating!
Elisabeth
-----------------------------------------
Post by cornel
Nasci
Wouldn't a crocodile steak be better on the banks of
the Yarra? I only
discovered the availability of crocodile when asked
if I wanted it in my
burger in Cairns. I was as surprised as when offered
horse in Belgium once.
I did eat the horse but not the croc!
Cornel
PS The plastic bottles for wine in Goa took my edge
off Vinicola recently.
Why plastic?
----- Original Message -----
__________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2006-05-04 15:59:14 UTC
Permalink
--- Elisabeth Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
First of all, Mario citing a flaming liberal like
Friedrick von Hayek is like the devil quoting the
scripture:) and then both Fred and Mario kick Ayn
Rand in the stomach. That's too much for a girl
like me to take in one morning :))
Can you guys please wear your labels neat and nice,
so I know what I'm dealing with :))
Mario clarifies:
Elisabeth,
You need to be careful not to confuse classic liberal
democrats, who stood for free market capitalism, with
modern political liberals who follow a socialist
philosophy. For example, President John F. Kennedy, a
Democrat who believed in a strong national defense and
lower taxes, would be a total misfit in the modern
Democrat party, dominated by his ultra-socialist
brother, Ted Kennedy.
Thus Friedrich von Hayek was not a flaming liberal in
the modern political context. Here is how Fred's
favorite encyclopedia describes him:
"Friedrich August von Hayek (May 8, 1899 in Vienna ?
March 23, 1992 in Freiburg) was an Austrian economist
and political philosopher, noted for his defense of
liberal democracy and free-market capitalism against
socialist and collectivist thought in the mid-20th
century"
I had no intentions of kicking Ayn anywhere - only to
emphasize the free market economists and philosophers
that I favor the most. She definitely belongs to my
end of the philosophical spectrum, but because she
used fiction as her medium, and was personally a
hedonist and libertine, she is easily vilified and
deliberately misunderstood by the other end, as Fred
illustrated.
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-04 19:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Mervyn3.0
I think you are confusing affirmative action with
"jobs being reserved". Affirmative action requires a
conscientious effort by the employer to diversify its
work-group. To this end, the employer may have a plan
drawn out as to how it will achieve this goal.
Generally the "4/5 rule" applies to ensure that
discrimination of minorities has not taken place and
that each minority has been represented in the final
selection, given the total applicant pool.

Elisabeth
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US
are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0
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Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-04 13:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Dear Vasant,

I agree with you; but u should also know that the prevalence of the caste
system among Christians in Goa, and perhaps in Mangalore too, is not that
much enforced or put in practice. Since a lot of the Christians in Goa and
Mangalore inherited their High or low caste, from their Hindu ancestry, they
cannot shed their caste so easily as they are all living and breathing among
their Hindu brothers and sisters. So I would think that whilst retaining
their high caste because they are born thus; they do not practice the harsh
practices of the Hindu high caste. There are exceptions; but then again
these have inherited and not created the system. Again thats no excuse.

The caste system is not only religious but has become cultural over the
centuries; So what is required is for all to join in the Cultural
Revolution, that I would like to happen. Yes , their enlightenment is not
complete if they still practice the caste in practice. Remember, the old
'inquisitions' were all about this!

Enlightenment is about my not believing and worshipping animals and reptiles
and other weird deities, and or looking down at fellow humans, sorely based
on their birth! Understand Vasant??

Threfore all of India's varied societies must learn to integrate culturally
and in every way possible; whilst at the same time keeping their religious
practices strictly private!. Bye now. More on this later.

Nasci Caldeira
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Nasci,
The Caste System is Hinduism's and India's curse.Perhaps you may wish to
clarify why both Hindus and Catholics in Goa practise the caste system to
this
day and why
there is such a "Bamonn" and "Chaddo" complex among the Elite?Or are they
still awaiting enlightenment like you?
Dev Tumka Boren Korum.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-05 19:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Mervyn3.0
I think you are confusing affirmative action with
"jobs being reserved". Affirmative action requires a
conscientious effort by the employer to diversify
its
work-group. To this end, the employer may have a
plan
drawn out as to how it will achieve this goal.
Generally the "4/5 rule" applies to ensure that
discrimination of minorities has not taken place and
that each minority has been represented in the final
selection, given the total applicant pool.
Elisabeth,
The "job being reserved" I was alluding to is the one
of President. How would you explain to us here that
you accept being deprived, by law, from becoming the
President of the USA?

Mervyn3.0
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US
are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-06 01:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helga do Rosario Gomes
Perhaps Mervyn, you should also explain why Canada
gives first preference for jobs in Canadian
Universities and research institutions to Canadians.
Helga,
Just last week, the new conservative govt changed the
rules allowing foreign students to secure jobs both on
and off campus.
Post by Helga do Rosario Gomes
Would you not want the best of professors and
scientists especially if you could attract them?
Canadian colleges, I am told, are second to none. Most
of the faculty members are foreign born. The US
supplies the largest percentage of non-Canadian
academics.

I have yet to hear of any law that allows for the
discrimination of Canadian residents, residents - let
alone citizens. Perhaps the US should take a clue from
us ;-)

Mervyn3.0





Mervyn3.0





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Helga do Rosario Gomes
2006-05-07 20:46:44 UTC
Permalink
From your posts Mervyn, I have already figured out that Canada is the best
country to live in! If only we could be so lucky. My comment is in regard to
Canadian job postings that I read in 'EOS', the American Geophysical Union's
newsletter and other Earth Sciences job sites which state that
Canadian citizens and permanent residents will be given preference.
Specifically, last week I saw an advertisement for a Chair at the Geology
Dept of the U of
Toronto. I dont know about Canadian colleges being second to none but I will
take your word for it as you have probably studied in one? I would like
to point out that Canadian scientists have benefited immensely from the
largesse of the US funding system, be it the NIH, NASA or recently the Bill
and Melinda Gates Foundation. As for discrimination - although I do not have
statistics on racial discrimination in Canada (and one needs numbers to
make such a serious accusation), I have read two articles in Goa Voice,
Canada, one of which stated that new and colored immigrants find it hard to
get jobs while the second
states that first generation Canadians of Asian parentage are often
sidelined for white kids in the job market. Although anecdotal, many of my
friends from Goa,
Bombay and the Middle East who have immigrated to Canada have found it very
hard to get jobs - especially the men and they have complained of being
severely discriminated. Or are they are plain incompetent? A social worker
friend who works at Etobikoke has been bitterly disappointed with the
complains of racial discrimination especially from African families. It
doesnt surprise me but its also not something I want to discuss any further.
What does concern me is
that in your effort to nail Mario Gouveia you do a great disserve to many of
us who do not agree with this regime as well to almost half the American
police who did not choose this government. There are plenty of Americans who
are against the death penalty, who fight for equal rights, same sex
marriages just as there are plenty of Canadians (including those who claim
to be Goans) who vociferously oppose the same sex marriage ruling in Canada.
Does Canada not have its conservatives who are very much against immigration
and the changing demography of their country? You also do yourself a
disserve because you come across as the archetypical Canadian whose
greatest sport is American bashing. You could do better Mervyn - perhaps you
could even advise the droves of Goans who have taken the plunge into the icy
cold waters of Canada and help them get through the first few difficult
years. In my opinion those postings would be extremely valuable to our Goans
rather than your polemics with Mario.There are many other forums where you
opinions would hold more import. As for 'Perhaps the US should take a clue
from us' I am sure that the USA has a lot to learn from other countries and
vice versa. As a very interesting article in last week's NYT magazine has
pointed out, Reinhold Niebuhr an intellectual who shaped the foreign policy
of early
Democrats (Americans for Democratic Action) argued that 'Americans should
not
emulate the absolute confidence of their enemies' (then the Communists)
rather 'they should cultivate enough self-doubt to ensure that their
idealism never degenerated into fanaticism'. There is benefit in humility
and there is a lesson to learn everywhere.

Helga do Rosario Gomes
Gabe Menezes
2006-05-08 09:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helga do Rosario Gomes
From your posts Mervyn, I have already figured out that Canada is the best
country to live in! If only we could be so lucky. My comment is in regard to
Canadian job postings that I read in 'EOS', the American Geophysical Union's
newsletter and other Earth Sciences job sites which state that
Canadian citizens and permanent residents will be given preference.
RESPONSE: I believe Mervyn has already offered to show the ropes,
guide anyone, through availing the system once they arrive in Toronto.

I agree, the majority of us are on the opposite side, of the spectrum,
from Goveia. We should not entertain him, treat him as
inconsequential. That is easily said than done! I am sure now that you
have said your piece on the present Admin. in the USA you will get a
screed in response from Goveia.

You are also correct about many immigrants to Canada. Many are so
disillusioned that they return back to their original place of
origin.

We here in the U.K. are fortunate that we can attend tiatrs and
Village feasts almost every month except during Lent. This coming
Saturday the AVC are having their 25th anniversary and LYNX are
performing at a sit down meal function.

Although our weather is not great, we can take a bus even in Winter! I
tried doing that in Canada in Autumn, not good at all for one's well
being.

The job situation is pretty good here in the UK, although there are
difficult pockets, like when, even newly qualified Doctors are unable
to get a placement. I believe these obstacles are to be found World
Wide. Qualifying as lawyers is another problem here in the U.K. Many
who have qualified, are unable to continue as they find it hard to get
a training contract.

Thanks for the enlightening piece, I hope it opens the eyes of many a
would be emigrant, not only to Canada but elsewhere in the World.



--
DIE DULCI FREURE,
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-05-08 09:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helga do Rosario Gomes
From your posts Mervyn, I have already figured out that Canada is the best
country to live in! If only we could be so lucky. My comment is in regard to
Canadian job postings that I read in 'EOS', the American Geophysical Union's
newsletter and other Earth Sciences job sites which state that
Canadian citizens and permanent residents will be given preference.
RESPONSE: I believe Mervyn has already offered to show the ropes,
guide anyone, through availing the system once they arrive in Toronto.

I agree, the majority of us are on the opposite side, of the spectrum,
from Goveia. We should not entertain him, treat him as
inconsequential. That is easily said than done! I am sure now that you
have said your piece on the present Admin. in the USA you will get a
screed in response from Goveia.

You are also correct about many immigrants to Canada. Many are so
disillusioned that they return back to their original place of
origin.

We here in the U.K. are fortunate that we can attend tiatrs and
Village feasts almost every month except during Lent. This coming
Saturday the AVC are having their 25th anniversary and LYNX are
performing at a sit down meal function.

Although our weather is not great, we can take a bus even in Winter! I
tried doing that in Canada in Autumn, not good at all for one's well
being.

The job situation is pretty good here in the UK, although there are
difficult pockets, like when, even newly qualified Doctors are unable
to get a placement. I believe these obstacles are to be found World
Wide. Qualifying as lawyers is another problem here in the U.K. Many
who have qualified, are unable to continue as they find it hard to get
a training contract.

Thanks for the enlightening piece, I hope it opens the eyes of many a
would be emigrant, not only to Canada but elsewhere in the World.



--
DIE DULCI FREURE,
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-05-08 09:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helga do Rosario Gomes
From your posts Mervyn, I have already figured out that Canada is the best
country to live in! If only we could be so lucky. My comment is in regard to
Canadian job postings that I read in 'EOS', the American Geophysical Union's
newsletter and other Earth Sciences job sites which state that
Canadian citizens and permanent residents will be given preference.
RESPONSE: I believe Mervyn has already offered to show the ropes,
guide anyone, through availing the system once they arrive in Toronto.

I agree, the majority of us are on the opposite side, of the spectrum,
from Goveia. We should not entertain him, treat him as
inconsequential. That is easily said than done! I am sure now that you
have said your piece on the present Admin. in the USA you will get a
screed in response from Goveia.

You are also correct about many immigrants to Canada. Many are so
disillusioned that they return back to their original place of
origin.

We here in the U.K. are fortunate that we can attend tiatrs and
Village feasts almost every month except during Lent. This coming
Saturday the AVC are having their 25th anniversary and LYNX are
performing at a sit down meal function.

Although our weather is not great, we can take a bus even in Winter! I
tried doing that in Canada in Autumn, not good at all for one's well
being.

The job situation is pretty good here in the UK, although there are
difficult pockets, like when, even newly qualified Doctors are unable
to get a placement. I believe these obstacles are to be found World
Wide. Qualifying as lawyers is another problem here in the U.K. Many
who have qualified, are unable to continue as they find it hard to get
a training contract.

Thanks for the enlightening piece, I hope it opens the eyes of many a
would be emigrant, not only to Canada but elsewhere in the World.



--
DIE DULCI FREURE,
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Helga do Rosario Gomes
2006-05-07 20:46:44 UTC
Permalink
From your posts Mervyn, I have already figured out that Canada is the best
country to live in! If only we could be so lucky. My comment is in regard to
Canadian job postings that I read in 'EOS', the American Geophysical Union's
newsletter and other Earth Sciences job sites which state that
Canadian citizens and permanent residents will be given preference.
Specifically, last week I saw an advertisement for a Chair at the Geology
Dept of the U of
Toronto. I dont know about Canadian colleges being second to none but I will
take your word for it as you have probably studied in one? I would like
to point out that Canadian scientists have benefited immensely from the
largesse of the US funding system, be it the NIH, NASA or recently the Bill
and Melinda Gates Foundation. As for discrimination - although I do not have
statistics on racial discrimination in Canada (and one needs numbers to
make such a serious accusation), I have read two articles in Goa Voice,
Canada, one of which stated that new and colored immigrants find it hard to
get jobs while the second
states that first generation Canadians of Asian parentage are often
sidelined for white kids in the job market. Although anecdotal, many of my
friends from Goa,
Bombay and the Middle East who have immigrated to Canada have found it very
hard to get jobs - especially the men and they have complained of being
severely discriminated. Or are they are plain incompetent? A social worker
friend who works at Etobikoke has been bitterly disappointed with the
complains of racial discrimination especially from African families. It
doesnt surprise me but its also not something I want to discuss any further.
What does concern me is
that in your effort to nail Mario Gouveia you do a great disserve to many of
us who do not agree with this regime as well to almost half the American
police who did not choose this government. There are plenty of Americans who
are against the death penalty, who fight for equal rights, same sex
marriages just as there are plenty of Canadians (including those who claim
to be Goans) who vociferously oppose the same sex marriage ruling in Canada.
Does Canada not have its conservatives who are very much against immigration
and the changing demography of their country? You also do yourself a
disserve because you come across as the archetypical Canadian whose
greatest sport is American bashing. You could do better Mervyn - perhaps you
could even advise the droves of Goans who have taken the plunge into the icy
cold waters of Canada and help them get through the first few difficult
years. In my opinion those postings would be extremely valuable to our Goans
rather than your polemics with Mario.There are many other forums where you
opinions would hold more import. As for 'Perhaps the US should take a clue
from us' I am sure that the USA has a lot to learn from other countries and
vice versa. As a very interesting article in last week's NYT magazine has
pointed out, Reinhold Niebuhr an intellectual who shaped the foreign policy
of early
Democrats (Americans for Democratic Action) argued that 'Americans should
not
emulate the absolute confidence of their enemies' (then the Communists)
rather 'they should cultivate enough self-doubt to ensure that their
idealism never degenerated into fanaticism'. There is benefit in humility
and there is a lesson to learn everywhere.

Helga do Rosario Gomes
Helga do Rosario Gomes
2006-05-07 20:46:44 UTC
Permalink
From your posts Mervyn, I have already figured out that Canada is the best
country to live in! If only we could be so lucky. My comment is in regard to
Canadian job postings that I read in 'EOS', the American Geophysical Union's
newsletter and other Earth Sciences job sites which state that
Canadian citizens and permanent residents will be given preference.
Specifically, last week I saw an advertisement for a Chair at the Geology
Dept of the U of
Toronto. I dont know about Canadian colleges being second to none but I will
take your word for it as you have probably studied in one? I would like
to point out that Canadian scientists have benefited immensely from the
largesse of the US funding system, be it the NIH, NASA or recently the Bill
and Melinda Gates Foundation. As for discrimination - although I do not have
statistics on racial discrimination in Canada (and one needs numbers to
make such a serious accusation), I have read two articles in Goa Voice,
Canada, one of which stated that new and colored immigrants find it hard to
get jobs while the second
states that first generation Canadians of Asian parentage are often
sidelined for white kids in the job market. Although anecdotal, many of my
friends from Goa,
Bombay and the Middle East who have immigrated to Canada have found it very
hard to get jobs - especially the men and they have complained of being
severely discriminated. Or are they are plain incompetent? A social worker
friend who works at Etobikoke has been bitterly disappointed with the
complains of racial discrimination especially from African families. It
doesnt surprise me but its also not something I want to discuss any further.
What does concern me is
that in your effort to nail Mario Gouveia you do a great disserve to many of
us who do not agree with this regime as well to almost half the American
police who did not choose this government. There are plenty of Americans who
are against the death penalty, who fight for equal rights, same sex
marriages just as there are plenty of Canadians (including those who claim
to be Goans) who vociferously oppose the same sex marriage ruling in Canada.
Does Canada not have its conservatives who are very much against immigration
and the changing demography of their country? You also do yourself a
disserve because you come across as the archetypical Canadian whose
greatest sport is American bashing. You could do better Mervyn - perhaps you
could even advise the droves of Goans who have taken the plunge into the icy
cold waters of Canada and help them get through the first few difficult
years. In my opinion those postings would be extremely valuable to our Goans
rather than your polemics with Mario.There are many other forums where you
opinions would hold more import. As for 'Perhaps the US should take a clue
from us' I am sure that the USA has a lot to learn from other countries and
vice versa. As a very interesting article in last week's NYT magazine has
pointed out, Reinhold Niebuhr an intellectual who shaped the foreign policy
of early
Democrats (Americans for Democratic Action) argued that 'Americans should
not
emulate the absolute confidence of their enemies' (then the Communists)
rather 'they should cultivate enough self-doubt to ensure that their
idealism never degenerated into fanaticism'. There is benefit in humility
and there is a lesson to learn everywhere.

Helga do Rosario Gomes
Mario Goveia
2006-05-06 20:23:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Elisabeth,
The "job being reserved" I was alluding to is the
one of President. How would you explain to us here
that you accept being deprived, by law, from
becoming the President of the USA?
Mario observes:
This is a curious, if not peculiar standard coming
from a Canadian resident, a country that pays
obeisance to an old foreign lady, and no one outside
her family can become Canadian head-of-state :-))
cornel
2006-05-07 03:12:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Elizabeth
Many thanks for your response and also for sharing my doubts of the
imminence, repeat, imminence, of super-power status for India. I hope Mario
will make note of what you have said too.

I quite badly want India to do well in the super-power race if for no other
reason than to see Asians taking their rightful place after historic
displacement by people of European origins. But I believe that anticipation
of such potential achievement must not be over-exaggerated when there is no
hard evidence to support such a view, especially on the most important issue
of quality control. On this general issue, Mario may be rushing where angels
fear to ... etc.

Cornel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elisabeth Carvalho"
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I also agree with you that the prospect of India
joining superpower status within the next few decades
is a myth. Even with foreign investment and the
multiplier effect in full force, it cannot generate
enough ripples to bring 60% of the population out of
poverty within a short span of time. Simultaneously
unlike China, no concerted efforts are being made to
curb population by either party.
Mario Goveia
2006-05-06 20:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Canadian colleges, I am told, are second to none.
Most of the faculty members are foreign born. The US
supplies the largest percentage of non-Canadian
academics.
Mario replies:
I don't know about second to none because of the large
number of Canadian students flocking to US
universities. But probably acceptable due to the US
academics who cannot find positions at US
universities.
Post by Mervyn Lobo
I have yet to hear of any law that allows for the
discrimination of Canadian residents, residents -
let alone citizens. Perhaps the US should take a
clue from us ;-)
Mario replies:
As the US's protectorate and 51 state, the "clues" all
go the other way, Mervyn:-))
Jerry Fernandes
2006-05-08 05:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Hello All

Centuries ago, whoever devised these caste systems had done it maybe to
segregate people and their jobs. Was it a good system?

As per the defination given on websters encyclopedia, It's a division of
society into closed groups, primarily by birth, but usually also involving
religion and occupation. The most caste based society today is that of Hindu
India. Its caste system, dating from 3000 B.C. was not discouraged until
recently.

Well the castes were mainly divided in four groups, Brahmins (religious
leaders, Kshatriya ( fighters) , Vasishya ( Business men), and Suddras
(Workers). Well given the four above caste systems, what has changed? Its
still practiced. As mentioned, did this caste system start the way it is or
was it used by the Brahmins to suite themselves and hence started treating
the working society as dust on the road? I feel that the original idea of
the caste system was not the way it came to be practiced gradually. It was
an allotment of work of different kinds to the people where by the society
could be maintained. But later on it must have derived completely a
different meaning.

Now with all these reservations, what is lost is that the working of
different castes is interchanging where by now sudaras are becoming priests,
or business man, or even joining the army. So what happens to the jobs that
the working class is leaving vacant? We end up getting outsiders for those
jobs? And than we shout, baile borleat Goem or other places. What would have
happened if this had not happened? The working class would be working class
and with now a days the days charges being almost Rs 300 would have earned
about 9000 or more tax free money depending on their enthusiasms of work
instead of waiting for once a month salary.

Cheers

Jerry Fernandes
Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-09 12:34:05 UTC
Permalink
From your posts Mervyn, I have already figured out
that Canada is the best country to live in! If only
we could be so lucky.
Helga,
I moved to Canada from the US. The reward? Canada has
been voted by the UN as "the best country in the world
to live in" about ten times in the dozen years I have
been here. Come on over, it is a great country.
My comment is in regard to Canadian job postings
that I read in 'EOS', the American Geophysical
Union's newsletter and other Earth Sciences job
sites which state that Canadian citizens and
permanent residents will be given preference.
Specifically, last week I saw an advertisement for a
Chair at the Geology Dept of the U of Toronto. I
dont know about Canadian colleges being second to
none but I will take your word for it as you have
probably studied in one?
Unfortunately, no. I have not studied in any Canadian
college. By the time I arrived in Canada, there was
almost nothing more to learn in my field.
As for discrimination - although I do not have
statistics on racial discrimination in Canada (and
one needs numbers to
make such a serious accusation), I have read two
articles in Goa Voice,
Canada, one of which stated that new and colored
immigrants find it hard to get jobs while the second
states that first generation Canadians of Asian
parentage are often sidelined for white kids in the
job market. Although anecdotal, many of my
friends from Goa, Bombay and the Middle East who
have immigrated to Canada have found it very
hard to get jobs - especially the men and they have
complained of being severely discriminated. Or are
they are plain incompetent? A social worker
friend who works at Etobikoke has been bitterly
disappointed with the complains of racial
discrimination especially from African families. It
doesnt surprise me but its also not something I want
to discuss any further.
It seems very strange to me that you would introduce a
topic (discrimination in Canada) and at the end of
that very introduction, insist that you do not want to
discuss it :-( As far as Goan immigrants are
concerned, I have only heard of one case of a family
moving back to India. In that particular case, the dad
had a very popular band in Mumbai.
What does concern me is that in your effort to nail
Mario Gouveia you do a great disserve to many of
us who do not agree with this regime as well to
almost half the American police who did not choose
this government.
Surely this is a Freudian slip?
There are plenty of Americans who are against the
death penalty, who fight for equal rights, same
sex marriages just as there are plenty of Canadians
(including those who claim to be Goans) who
vociferously oppose the same sex marriage ruling
in Canada.
Plenty is not enough. It's the majority that count and
who get to update the laws.
Does Canada not have its conservatives who are very
much against immigration and the changing demography
of their country?
Canada needs 250,000 immigrants every year to maintain
the standard of living we have. All four political
parties understand this and actively encourage
migration.
You also do yourself a disserve because you come
across as the archetypical Canadian whose
greatest sport is American bashing.
Well, much as I would like to be liked by all, I
cannot please everyone who reads what I write.
You could do
better Mervyn - perhaps you could even advise the
droves of Goans who have taken the plunge into the
icy cold waters of Canada and help them get through
the first few difficult years. In my opinion those
postings would be extremely valuable to our Goans
rather than your polemics with Mario.
Helga, like most of the people here, we are having fun
with Mario but I go get your point. Secondly, I have
offered, even here on Goanet, to help new immigrants
to Canada.
There are many other forums where you opinions
would hold more import. As for 'Perhaps the US
should take a clue from us' I am sure that the USA
has a lot to learn from other countries and vice
versa. As a very interesting article in last
week's NYT magazine has pointed out, Reinhold
Niebuhr an intellectual who shaped the foreign
policy of early Democrats (Americans for Democratic
Action) argued that 'Americans should not emulate
the absolute confidence of their enemies' (then the
Communists) rather 'they should cultivate enough
self-doubt to ensure that their idealism never
degenerated into fanaticism'. There is benefit in
humility and there is a lesson to learn everywhere.
Perhaps, the US should learn from its friends,
particularly the French. Here is a quote from a
Frenchman:

"Power is not revealed by stricking hard or often, but
by stricking true."
_Honore de Balzac (novelist)

Lastly since I have taken the time to try and respond
to your questions, can you attempt to answer just one
of mine?
The question I have is:
In your opinion, are there two classes of US citizens?
i.e. one that can run for all offices and another that
cannot?

Mervyn3.0



__________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2006-05-10 13:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Lastly since I have taken the time to try and
respond to your questions, can you attempt to
In your opinion, are there two classes of US
citizens? i.e. one that can run for all offices
and another that cannot?
Mario responds:
Mervyn continues this tired refrain that is now
becoming old. The Canadians, while being a
protectorate of the US, all pay obeisance to an old
foreign lady, the Queen of England, and only people
from her family can become Canadian head-of-state. No
other Canadian either immigrant or native born can
aspire to this position. This shows that there are
two classes of Canadians:-))
Frederick [FN] Noronha
2006-05-01 18:09:49 UTC
Permalink
The debate on non-reservations
(Author known --FN)

Whether you are against or for reservations, here is an (MILLENIA) OLD ANGLE : -))

I think we should abolish reservations in all fields of endeavour. I completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this.

Let us start with reservations in the dehumanising jobs -- e.g. scavanging, cleaning the roads, prostituting of womenfolk in squalid red-light quarters etc. It is wholly unfair that this be preserved for only one section of society. In all fairness of things, some of these 'posts' need also to be 'opened up' to the self-appointed elites within our society. Only then could we expect people to be more sensitive to how dehumanising these activities really area. All those who are against reservations, should come out and stand up for their right to take on such jobs.

Secondly, we need to fight against reservations in certain professions, such as leather-work and shoe-making. If this caste-based reservations is continued, then how can our Gaitondes make it internationally to the global shoe grade, at a time when there's money in leather? This is most unfair.

Next, let us also fight against reservations that allow deprived sections of society a fair entry point (and let us also pretend that there are 'reservations' in exams). Never mind that, on the other hand, we have shown our eagerness to allow these 'inefficient' OBCs and SC/STs to win medals for the nation in international competitive and sporting events, or even die -- again on a 'reserved' quota, which we can't afford to abolish -- in the greater glory of communal conflict that seeks to take India back to the sixteenth century.

Further, though we are against reservations, we reserve the right to pretend that nine-tenths of the Indian population is inefficient, uncapable, and inept. We reserve the right to ignore the cover story in the OUTLOOK magazine, which cited cases of candidates who entered via reserved seats and went on to make brilliant academic careers for themselves.

We also reserve the right to pretend that all those who get entry to tightly-controlled access points through reservations are actually allowed to pass exams through reservations. And, of course, we reserve the right to pretend that the Indian bureaucracy, business class, academia and all other major levers of power are *not* functioning like one huge reserved quota for a very tiny, birth-defined 'elite' whose superior brainpower has however not ameliorated the harsh conditions of life for the average citizen of this country.

Let's continue raving against reservations, and yet maintain one of the most inflexible system of 'reservations' in the planet.

Long live the good breed of politicans like the author of the article below... :-))

The debate on reservations
(Author unknown)

Whether you are for or against reservations, here is a
NEW ANGLE :-))

I think we should have job reservations in all fields
of endeavor. I completely support the PM and all the
politicians for promoting this.

Let's start the reservation with our cricket team.
We should have 10 percent reservation for Muslims, 30
percent for OBC, SC/ST, etc.

Cricket rules should be modified accordingly.
The boundary circle should be reduced for an SC/ST
player. The four hit by an OBC player should be
considered as a six and a six hit by a OBC player
should be counted as 8 runs. An OBC player scoring 60
runs should be declared as a century.

We should influence ICC and make rules so that the
pace bowlers like Shoaib Akhtar should not bowl fast
balls to our OBC player. Bowlers should bowl maximum
speed of 80 kilometer per hour to an OBC player. Any
delivery above this speed should be made illegal.

Also we should have reservation in Olympics. In the
100 meters race, an OBC athlete should run only 80
meters.

There can be reservation in Government jobs also.
Let's recruit SC/ST and OBC pilots for aircrafts which
are carrying the ministers and politicians (that
should really help the country...)

Ensure that only SC/ST and OBC doctors do the
operations for the ministers and other politicians.
(Another way of helping the country...)

Let's be creative and think of more ways and means to
guide INDIA forward and "help" all Indians...

Long live the good breed of politicans like ARJUN
SINGH :-))

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick Noronha 784 Near Convent, Sonarbhat SALIGAO GOA India
Freelance Journalist TEL: +91-832-2409490 MOBILE: 9822122436
Skype/Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha www.bytesforall.net
Mario Goveia
2006-05-02 13:53:40 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick [FN] Noronha" <fred at bytesforall.org>
Post by Frederick [FN] Noronha
The debate on non-reservations
(Author known --FN)
Let us start with reservations in the dehumanising
jobs -- e.g. scavanging, cleaning the roads,
prostituting of womenfolk in squalid red-light
quarters etc. It is wholly unfair that this be
preserved for only one section of society. In all
fairness of things, some of these 'posts' need also
to be 'opened up' to the self-appointed elites
within our society. Only then could we expect people
to be more sensitive to how dehumanising these
activities really area. All those who are against
reservations, should come out and stand up for their
right to take on such jobs.
Secondly, we need to fight against reservations in
certain professions, such as leather-work and
shoe-making. If this caste-based reservations is
continued, then how can our Gaitondes make it
internationally to the global shoe grade, at a time
when there's money in leather? This is most unfair.
Next, let us also fight against reservations that
allow deprived sections of society a fair entry
point (and let us also pretend that there are
'reservations' in exams). Never mind that, on the
other hand, we have shown our eagerness to allow
these 'inefficient' OBCs and SC/STs to win medals
for the nation in international competitive and
sporting events, or even die -- again on a
'reserved' quota, which we can't afford to abolish
-- in the greater glory of communal conflict that
seeks to take India back to the sixteenth century.
Further, though we are against reservations, we
reserve the right to pretend that nine-tenths of the
Indian population is inefficient, uncapable, and
inept. We reserve the right to ignore the cover
story in the OUTLOOK magazine, which cited cases of
candidates who entered via reserved seats and went
on to make brilliant academic careers for
themselves.
We also reserve the right to pretend that all those
who get entry to tightly-controlled access points
through reservations are actually allowed to pass
exams through reservations. And, of course, we
reserve the right to pretend that the Indian
bureaucracy, business class, academia and all other
major levers of power are *not* functioning like one
huge reserved quota for a very tiny, birth-defined
'elite' whose superior brainpower has however not
ameliorated the harsh conditions of life for the
average citizen of this country.
Let's continue raving against reservations, and yet
maintain one of the most inflexible system of
'reservations' in the planet.
Mario observes:
To the Unknown Author --FN
Good idea, Unknown! Karl would be very proud:-))
Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-02 14:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Qudos to you! Dear Fred!

Reversing the 'Caste System' is the 'need of the hour'! We cannot take away
the caste out of anyone; nor would we want to; however we can definitely
demand that these caste groups do all the types of jobs for their caste
group at least; all the smart and so called lowly jobs; No more
discrimination can be tolerated in reserving the sordid jobs for certain
other castes and no-caste people!

The high and middle caste people must be made to do all of their own work!
since they think they are a race apart! This will surely put an end to the
discriminatory behavior of Indians! I have always said that this dirty
Indian Culture which belongs to ancient times and has yet to evolve modern,
and in practice is "EVIL"; this which degrades some HUMAN BEINGS and at the
same time 'worships' animals and other weird deities. The URL should be:
Worst Wicked Weird.Indianculture.

The last para quoted at the end: "Lets continue raving against reservations
and yet maintain one of the most 'inflexible' system of 'reservations' on
the planet."

That says it all. Incredible India Indeed!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.


Frederick [FN] Noronha" <fred at bytesforall.org> wrote:

Subject: [Goanet] The debate on non-reservations
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 23:39:49 +0530
I think we should abolish reservations in all fields of endeavour. I
completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this.
Let us start with reservations in the dehumanising jobs -- e.g. scavanging,
cleaning the roads, prostituting of womenfolk in squalid red-light quarters
etc. It is wholly unfair that this be preserved for only one section of
society. In all fairness of things, some of these 'posts' need also to be
'opened up' to the self-appointed elites within our society. Only then
could we expect people to be more sensitive to how dehumanising these
activities really area. All those who are against reservations, should come
out and stand up for their right to take on such jobs.
Secondly, we need to fight against reservations in certain professions,
such as leather-work and shoe-making. If this caste-based reservations is
continued, then how can our Gaitondes make it internationally to the global
shoe grade, at a time when there's money in leather? This is most unfair.
Next, let us also fight against reservations that allow deprived sections
of society a fair entry point (and let us also pretend that there are
'reservations' in exams). Never mind that, on the other hand, we have shown
our eagerness to allow these 'inefficient' OBCs and SC/STs to win medals
for the nation in international competitive and sporting events, or even
die -- again on a 'reserved' quota, which we can't afford to abolish -- in
the greater glory of communal conflict that seeks to take India back to the
sixteenth century.
"Let's continue raving against reservations, and yet maintain one of the
most inflexible system of 'reservations' in the planet".
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-03 05:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Dear Nasci,
While I understand your revulsion at practices, such
as sati and the caste system, that are totally
unacceptable in our modern context, I'm afraid the
statements you make below, make your views a little
bigoted and uninformed.

You have used the terms culture and religion
interchangeably. And I grant you that because
ultimately religion becomes nothing more than a
cultural badge.

However, Indian culture/religion is not at all about
worshiping animal deities. This is just a superficial
understanding of the religion. Vedic scripture which
dates back at least 5000 years talks about existential
concepts which western philosophers would not ponder
upon until much later. Sumerian or Canaanite mythology
of the time, which became the basis of our
Judaic-Christian religion, references nature and the
many temperaments of nature. It rarely references or
deals in details with the "soul".

I wish for everyone to take an interest in other
religions. Not as a spiritual journey but more as a
journey into other people's cultural roots.

I do agree with you Nasci that most religions, whether
Muslim, Christian or Hindu have stopped evolving over
time and the repercussions of this lack of evolution
has become the niche-market of every fundamentalist.
Our most profound thoughts seem to be behind us. Our
philosophers and saints all dead or crucified. What we
are left with today is loud rhetoric which is echoed
in the name of God and self-righteousness.

Elisabeth
-------------------------------

Nasci wrote:
this dirty
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Indian Culture which belongs to ancient times and
has yet to evolve modern,
and in practice is "EVIL"; this which degrades some
HUMAN BEINGS and at the
same time 'worships' animals and other weird
Worst Wicked Weird.Indianculture.
__________________________________________________
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Frederick Noronha
2006-05-03 08:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
To the Unknown Author --FN
Good idea, Unknown! Karl would be very proud:-))
Firstly, the author is *not* unknown. I stand by my views.

Secondly, not just Karl, but also the Advocate or the Apostle of our
Profession * and Gautama would have echoed such sentiments, I'm sure.
In fact, anyone who has some regard for the basic principles of social
justice would broadly agree with the sentiments expressed (while there
is obviously much scope for discussion over the detail).

Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and The Virtues of
Selfishness, then there's nothing here for you! FN

* http://tinyurl.com/q68ek
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | fred at bytesforall.org
Independent Journalist | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
Photographs from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Mario Goveia
2006-05-03 16:04:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frederick Noronha
Post by Mario Goveia
To the Unknown Author --FN
Good idea, Unknown! Karl would be very proud:-))
Firstly, the author is *not* unknown. I stand by my
views.
Mario observes:
Fred,
I should have recognized that "Unknown Author --FN"
was you:-))
BTW, Karl would be even more proud that you still
stand by his views that have been rejected by all the
major proponents that have actually tried it.
Post by Frederick Noronha
Secondly, not just Karl, but also the Advocate or
the Apostle of our Profession * and Gautama would
have echoed such sentiments, I'm sure. In fact,
anyone who has some regard for the basic principles
of social justice would broadly agree with the
sentiments expressed (while there is obviously much
scope for discussion over the detail).
Mario observes:
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in the
good intentions of the chef(s). If the admirable
search for social justice had been achieved by the
methods insisted on by the proponents mentioned above,
after trying so hard for so many decades, often using
coercive force, they would have been continued, not
discontinued.
If the "discussion over the detail" is to attempt yet
another version of a system which fails to recognize
the inherent ability of every individual and
subjugates these to the "wisdom" of a ruling elite,
then it is a recipe for additional failure.
Post by Frederick Noronha
Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and The
Virtues of Selfishness, then there's nothing here
for you!
Mario observes:
It's not what there is for "me" that counts, but for
most of the people most of the time. Besides, I favor
philosophers like Adam Smith, Friedrich Von Hayek,
Joseph Schumpeter and Milton Friedman, rather than a
hedonist libertine like Ayn Rand, who might evn fit
your characterisation of selfishness.
What you see as "selfishness", and its corollary
"greed", which are negative traits, leads you to
suggest that "selfless" and well-intentioned elites
know what's best for everyone else. That is the
essence of what the proponents you seem to favor
believe, and it is the fundamental flaw in their
belief and in the failure of their attempts to "help"
those "less intelligent" than them.
Any system that depends on "selfishness" and "greed"
would fail fairly quickly because of the negative
impact of these emotions on others who would then
react to the "selfishness" and "greed" to the
detriment of those who were so inclined. A recent
example in the US are the executives of companies like
Enron and Tyco and others, who are all on their way to
long prison terms and eternal disgrace.
The systems that have succeeded in helping most of
their people most of the time tap into the positive
trait called "enlightened self interest", which, by
definition, recognizes that individual and national
success depends not on "selfishness" and "greed", nor
on the patronage of a self-serving elite, but on a
serious and honest attempt to achieve a long-term
win-win philosophy for every individual.
That, in my never humble opinion, is what true social
justice should be all about.
Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-03 12:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elisabeth,

I wish to respond here, particularly because it enables me to further
explain, my revulsion when 'those practiced horrors' in the name of
religion, that have been ingested into the majority culture, for so many
centuries, are not taken care of, even in this day and age and disposed off
into the dust bin where they belong. I do not want to hurt anyone; but I do
demand change for the better!

Instead these are being propogated , endured and slyly propped up as 'good'
in the name of ethos, by the majority Hindu community. Worse that, this is
done to maintain dominant control of the so called low born by the high
born, for eternity?? There should be a Cultural Revolution, but then again,
easier said than done.

I surely understand and appreciate some of the good philosophy and thought
underlying Hindu and other religious theory and theology.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT AT ALL. PLEASE PUT THE GOOD INTO PRACTICE!

But all that philosophy can never undo or compensate all the horrors and
real harm that is perpetrated, in practice. Besides this is what affects
all; including non believers , in our day to day lives. This is my main
concern and that is why I happen to come out so strongly on these matters.
Why does this mythology not equate all Men. Why do these people not go out
to their fellow men with a human hand and a human touch; That leads me to
conclude that this is not religion but just a collection of myths, used to
subjugate and dehumanise 'other' people.

What happens 'in practice' and 'on the ground' is what matters most and
ultimately, this is the 'essence' of the bigger problem; and not what is
written in ancient philosophies. There must be 'Desegregation and an end to
'Apartheid' and Racist behavior, in every walk of life, in India!

Only then will India be freed of this 'yoke' and men (George, I'm not being
sexist here) will become more productive and social cohesion will come
about. Then only can India call itself 'a great society'; far from the
'hotch potch' or (amcheh Bhasaen) 'poch pochit' society that the majority
culture is today!

I WANT iNDIA TO BE GREAT FOR ALL OF ITS PEOPLE! THIS IS my MISSION and sole
PURPOSE in HITTING OUT AT THE WRONGS; no other motives.

I am not particularly bothered about 'other forms of worship' as such; but
my Indianness I cannot shed when I am in the company of my own type or when
I am abroad (outside India). I am almost always confronted by fellow workers
and neighbors etc: with these obscene beliefs and practices; as a result I
have to keep telling everyone that I do not believe in and or practice these
absurdities! That I am a Christian and have been enlightened!

This Indian stigma then becomes a 'trait' ascribed to all Indians
irrespective! Just like all muslims become suspect terrorists! That is why I
am compelled to revolt at every opportunity possible. I know you and people
like me, will understand what I am implying; but what I really want is for
all goanetters and all Indians to come to their senses and have a real
introspection and bring about a 'Fundamental Change' in attitudes and
practice.

Now in a lighter vein; Elisabeth! I have become a bit envious of your date
with Mario! In contrast I am offering you a 'Chateaubriand Steak' (for two)
prepared personally 'medium rare' , with a bottle of the finest 'Sparkling
Red Burgandy' on ice, to go with it! Life is GOOD on the banks of the river
Yarra! And all I want is: Hah, Hah! Hummm Hummm! jolly good company! Will
you?

See Ya!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
While I understand your revulsion at practices, such
as sati and the caste system, that are totally
unacceptable in our modern context, I'm afraid the
statements you make below, make your views a little
bigoted and uninformed.
However, Indian culture/religion is not at all about
worshiping animal deities. This is just a superficial
understanding of the religion.
I do agree with you Nasci that most religions, whether
Muslim, Christian or Hindu have stopped evolving over
time and the repercussions of this lack of evolution
has become the niche-market of every fundamentalist.
Our most profound thoughts seem to be behind us. Our
philosophers and saints all dead or crucified. What we
are left with today is loud rhetoric which is echoed
in the name of God and self-righteousness.
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-03 17:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Nasci,
Is that Burgundy Australian? Make it a fine
Californian Chardonnay and you have a date. Better
still make it Vinicola Port Wine No. 5, served out of
a plastic bottle :))
Elisabeth

----------------------------------
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Now in a lighter vein; Elisabeth! I have become a
bit envious of your date
with Mario! In contrast I am offering you a
'Chateaubriand Steak' (for two)
prepared personally 'medium rare' , with a bottle of
the finest 'Sparkling
Red Burgandy' on ice, to go with it! Life is GOOD on
the banks of the river
Yarra! And all I want is: Hah, Hah! Hummm Hummm!
jolly good company! Will
you?
See Ya!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-03 17:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The systems that have succeeded in helping most of
their people most of the time tap into the positive
trait called "enlightened self interest", which, by
definition, recognizes that individual and national
success depends not on "selfishness" and "greed",
nor
on the patronage of a self-serving elite, but on a
serious and honest attempt to achieve a long-term
win-win philosophy for every individual.
That, in my never humble opinion, is what true
social justice should be all about.
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0





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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-03 19:57:19 UTC
Permalink
First of all, Mario citing a flaming liberal like
Friedrick von Hayek is like the devil quoting the
scripture:) and then both Fred and Mario kick Ayn Rand
in the stomach. That's too much for a girl like me to
take in one morning :))

Can you guys please wear your labels neat and nice, so
I know what I'm dealing with :))

Elisabeth
-------------------------------------------
Post by Mario Goveia
Post by Frederick Noronha
Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and
The
Post by Frederick Noronha
Virtues of Selfishness, then there's nothing here
for you!
It's not what there is for "me" that counts, but for
most of the people most of the time. Besides, I
favor
philosophers like Adam Smith, Friedrich Von Hayek,
Joseph Schumpeter and Milton Friedman, rather than a
hedonist libertine like Ayn Rand, who might evn fit
your characterisation of selfishness.
What you see as "selfishness", and its corollary
"greed", which are negative traits, leads you to
suggest that "selfless" and well-intentioned elites
know what's best for everyone else. That is the
essence of what the proponents you seem to favor
believe, and it is the fundamental flaw in their
belief and in the failure of their attempts to
"help"
those "less intelligent" than them.
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VABaliga
2006-05-04 04:17:56 UTC
Permalink
Nasci wrote:

Instead these are being propogated , endured and slyly propped up as 'good'
in the name of ethos, by the majority Hindu community. Worse that, this is
done to maintain dominant control of the so called low born by the high
born, for eternity?? There should be a Cultural Revolution, but then again,
easier said than done.

I surely understand and appreciate some of the good philosophy and thought
underlying Hindu and other religious theory and theology.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT AT ALL. PLEASE PUT THE GOOD INTO PRACTICE!

Nasci,

The Caste System is Hinduism's and India's curse.Perhaps you may wish to
clarify why both Hindus and Catholics in Goa practise the caste system to
this
day and why

there is such a "Bamonn" and "Chaddo" complex among the Elite?Or are they
still awaiting enlightenment like you?

Dev Tumka Boren Korum.

Vasant
Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-04 13:16:31 UTC
Permalink
Cornel,
Cairns is in Queensland, and is a hot spot there, being a gateway to the
great Australian Barrier Reef. I do not know of Croc meat; but some places
have service with Kangaroo meat if some one wants it. The Yarra is
Melbourne's ;muddy'// river; not so bad'; developed all over, in the city
area with beaut parks, restaurants alfresco style, and shopping malls with
boutique shops, etc. A wide and long promenade along the river, with bicycle
tracks is one of the highlights, of the Yarra. You probably seen the sheer
beauty of the area, if you watched the Commonwealth Games recently.

Beef is one or Australia's finer meat produce; and is exported in large
quantities specially to Japan and SE Asia. Mouth watering! I go for Beef and
Veal, most times; hate lamb, as it also smells a bit compared to Goat meat.

But there is also, so called 'Kobe Beef' produced in Japan in limited
quantities, is very good! This Kobe Beef is produced by feeding Cattle with
imported special Hay from the USA and other nourishments like beer and Saki
etc. There is a chain of restaurants in Japan which cater exclusively to
Kobe Beef. Only those who visit Japan know about it. Otherwise people think
that Japan has no beef of its own.

As for Vinicola in plastic bottles, I am surprised too! As recently, in
Margao at Christmas time I was presented with Vinicola in a glass (Ketchup
size) bottle, by a Goan Lady from London on holiday.

First time I ate 'horse meat' was in Hamburg, Germany; when a German friend
intoduced the same to me as 'Wurst' the popular German sausage. I believe
they learnt to eat horse during the War Days, when meat was scarce; Only
certain parts of horse are eaten; I like the taste though; could not make
out the difference.

See Ya!
Nasci Caldeira.
Post by cornel
Nasci
Wouldn't a crocodile steak be better on the banks of the Yarra? I only
discovered the availability of crocodile when asked if I wanted it in my
burger in Cairns. I was as surprised as when offered horse in Belgium once.
I did eat the horse but not the croc!
Cornel
PS The plastic bottles for wine in Goa took my edge off Vinicola recently.
Why plastic?
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-04 14:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Dear Cornel,
Seems like you enjoyed your trip. I think the wine is
bottled in plastic rather than glass probably because
plastic is cheaper.

You should have tried the croc. I've never had but
have had alligator here in the US. It's sort of like
chicken and with a little tartar sauce can be quite
nice.

I also agree with you that the prospect of India
joining superpower status within the next few decades
is a myth. Even with foreign investment and the
multiplier effect in full force, it cannot generate
enough ripples to bring 60% of the population out of
poverty within a short span of time. Simultaneously
unlike China, no concerted efforts are being made to
curb population by either party.

Even Goldman Sachs in their follow up to BRICs, make
note of the fact that despite huge strides being made
in the aggregate economy, personal incomes will be
only a fraction of those enjoyed in the west.
Increases in GDP of countries with such large
population means little to the PCI.

Also, the CPI in India, continuously puts a wrench in
the corporate wheels of India by objecting to
dismantling of PSUs, increases in foreign investment
in vital sectors and its general dislike of anything
be it investment or ideas imported from the West. We
have to overhaul the political system itself by
reducing the impact of regional politics if we want to
cohesively impact national economics.

And that's my morning dose of pontificating!
Elisabeth
-----------------------------------------
Post by cornel
Nasci
Wouldn't a crocodile steak be better on the banks of
the Yarra? I only
discovered the availability of crocodile when asked
if I wanted it in my
burger in Cairns. I was as surprised as when offered
horse in Belgium once.
I did eat the horse but not the croc!
Cornel
PS The plastic bottles for wine in Goa took my edge
off Vinicola recently.
Why plastic?
----- Original Message -----
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Mario Goveia
2006-05-04 15:59:14 UTC
Permalink
--- Elisabeth Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
First of all, Mario citing a flaming liberal like
Friedrick von Hayek is like the devil quoting the
scripture:) and then both Fred and Mario kick Ayn
Rand in the stomach. That's too much for a girl
like me to take in one morning :))
Can you guys please wear your labels neat and nice,
so I know what I'm dealing with :))
Mario clarifies:
Elisabeth,
You need to be careful not to confuse classic liberal
democrats, who stood for free market capitalism, with
modern political liberals who follow a socialist
philosophy. For example, President John F. Kennedy, a
Democrat who believed in a strong national defense and
lower taxes, would be a total misfit in the modern
Democrat party, dominated by his ultra-socialist
brother, Ted Kennedy.
Thus Friedrich von Hayek was not a flaming liberal in
the modern political context. Here is how Fred's
favorite encyclopedia describes him:
"Friedrich August von Hayek (May 8, 1899 in Vienna ?
March 23, 1992 in Freiburg) was an Austrian economist
and political philosopher, noted for his defense of
liberal democracy and free-market capitalism against
socialist and collectivist thought in the mid-20th
century"
I had no intentions of kicking Ayn anywhere - only to
emphasize the free market economists and philosophers
that I favor the most. She definitely belongs to my
end of the philosophical spectrum, but because she
used fiction as her medium, and was personally a
hedonist and libertine, she is easily vilified and
deliberately misunderstood by the other end, as Fred
illustrated.
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-04 19:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Mervyn3.0
I think you are confusing affirmative action with
"jobs being reserved". Affirmative action requires a
conscientious effort by the employer to diversify its
work-group. To this end, the employer may have a plan
drawn out as to how it will achieve this goal.
Generally the "4/5 rule" applies to ensure that
discrimination of minorities has not taken place and
that each minority has been represented in the final
selection, given the total applicant pool.

Elisabeth
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US
are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0
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Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-04 13:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Dear Vasant,

I agree with you; but u should also know that the prevalence of the caste
system among Christians in Goa, and perhaps in Mangalore too, is not that
much enforced or put in practice. Since a lot of the Christians in Goa and
Mangalore inherited their High or low caste, from their Hindu ancestry, they
cannot shed their caste so easily as they are all living and breathing among
their Hindu brothers and sisters. So I would think that whilst retaining
their high caste because they are born thus; they do not practice the harsh
practices of the Hindu high caste. There are exceptions; but then again
these have inherited and not created the system. Again thats no excuse.

The caste system is not only religious but has become cultural over the
centuries; So what is required is for all to join in the Cultural
Revolution, that I would like to happen. Yes , their enlightenment is not
complete if they still practice the caste in practice. Remember, the old
'inquisitions' were all about this!

Enlightenment is about my not believing and worshipping animals and reptiles
and other weird deities, and or looking down at fellow humans, sorely based
on their birth! Understand Vasant??

Threfore all of India's varied societies must learn to integrate culturally
and in every way possible; whilst at the same time keeping their religious
practices strictly private!. Bye now. More on this later.

Nasci Caldeira
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Nasci,
The Caste System is Hinduism's and India's curse.Perhaps you may wish to
clarify why both Hindus and Catholics in Goa practise the caste system to
this
day and why
there is such a "Bamonn" and "Chaddo" complex among the Elite?Or are they
still awaiting enlightenment like you?
Dev Tumka Boren Korum.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-05 19:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Mervyn3.0
I think you are confusing affirmative action with
"jobs being reserved". Affirmative action requires a
conscientious effort by the employer to diversify
its
work-group. To this end, the employer may have a
plan
drawn out as to how it will achieve this goal.
Generally the "4/5 rule" applies to ensure that
discrimination of minorities has not taken place and
that each minority has been represented in the final
selection, given the total applicant pool.
Elisabeth,
The "job being reserved" I was alluding to is the one
of President. How would you explain to us here that
you accept being deprived, by law, from becoming the
President of the USA?

Mervyn3.0
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US
are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-06 01:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helga do Rosario Gomes
Perhaps Mervyn, you should also explain why Canada
gives first preference for jobs in Canadian
Universities and research institutions to Canadians.
Helga,
Just last week, the new conservative govt changed the
rules allowing foreign students to secure jobs both on
and off campus.
Post by Helga do Rosario Gomes
Would you not want the best of professors and
scientists especially if you could attract them?
Canadian colleges, I am told, are second to none. Most
of the faculty members are foreign born. The US
supplies the largest percentage of non-Canadian
academics.

I have yet to hear of any law that allows for the
discrimination of Canadian residents, residents - let
alone citizens. Perhaps the US should take a clue from
us ;-)

Mervyn3.0





Mervyn3.0





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Mario Goveia
2006-05-06 20:23:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Elisabeth,
The "job being reserved" I was alluding to is the
one of President. How would you explain to us here
that you accept being deprived, by law, from
becoming the President of the USA?
Mario observes:
This is a curious, if not peculiar standard coming
from a Canadian resident, a country that pays
obeisance to an old foreign lady, and no one outside
her family can become Canadian head-of-state :-))
cornel
2006-05-07 03:12:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Elizabeth
Many thanks for your response and also for sharing my doubts of the
imminence, repeat, imminence, of super-power status for India. I hope Mario
will make note of what you have said too.

I quite badly want India to do well in the super-power race if for no other
reason than to see Asians taking their rightful place after historic
displacement by people of European origins. But I believe that anticipation
of such potential achievement must not be over-exaggerated when there is no
hard evidence to support such a view, especially on the most important issue
of quality control. On this general issue, Mario may be rushing where angels
fear to ... etc.

Cornel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elisabeth Carvalho"
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I also agree with you that the prospect of India
joining superpower status within the next few decades
is a myth. Even with foreign investment and the
multiplier effect in full force, it cannot generate
enough ripples to bring 60% of the population out of
poverty within a short span of time. Simultaneously
unlike China, no concerted efforts are being made to
curb population by either party.
Mario Goveia
2006-05-06 20:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Canadian colleges, I am told, are second to none.
Most of the faculty members are foreign born. The US
supplies the largest percentage of non-Canadian
academics.
Mario replies:
I don't know about second to none because of the large
number of Canadian students flocking to US
universities. But probably acceptable due to the US
academics who cannot find positions at US
universities.
Post by Mervyn Lobo
I have yet to hear of any law that allows for the
discrimination of Canadian residents, residents -
let alone citizens. Perhaps the US should take a
clue from us ;-)
Mario replies:
As the US's protectorate and 51 state, the "clues" all
go the other way, Mervyn:-))
Jerry Fernandes
2006-05-08 05:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Hello All

Centuries ago, whoever devised these caste systems had done it maybe to
segregate people and their jobs. Was it a good system?

As per the defination given on websters encyclopedia, It's a division of
society into closed groups, primarily by birth, but usually also involving
religion and occupation. The most caste based society today is that of Hindu
India. Its caste system, dating from 3000 B.C. was not discouraged until
recently.

Well the castes were mainly divided in four groups, Brahmins (religious
leaders, Kshatriya ( fighters) , Vasishya ( Business men), and Suddras
(Workers). Well given the four above caste systems, what has changed? Its
still practiced. As mentioned, did this caste system start the way it is or
was it used by the Brahmins to suite themselves and hence started treating
the working society as dust on the road? I feel that the original idea of
the caste system was not the way it came to be practiced gradually. It was
an allotment of work of different kinds to the people where by the society
could be maintained. But later on it must have derived completely a
different meaning.

Now with all these reservations, what is lost is that the working of
different castes is interchanging where by now sudaras are becoming priests,
or business man, or even joining the army. So what happens to the jobs that
the working class is leaving vacant? We end up getting outsiders for those
jobs? And than we shout, baile borleat Goem or other places. What would have
happened if this had not happened? The working class would be working class
and with now a days the days charges being almost Rs 300 would have earned
about 9000 or more tax free money depending on their enthusiasms of work
instead of waiting for once a month salary.

Cheers

Jerry Fernandes
Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-09 12:34:05 UTC
Permalink
From your posts Mervyn, I have already figured out
that Canada is the best country to live in! If only
we could be so lucky.
Helga,
I moved to Canada from the US. The reward? Canada has
been voted by the UN as "the best country in the world
to live in" about ten times in the dozen years I have
been here. Come on over, it is a great country.
My comment is in regard to Canadian job postings
that I read in 'EOS', the American Geophysical
Union's newsletter and other Earth Sciences job
sites which state that Canadian citizens and
permanent residents will be given preference.
Specifically, last week I saw an advertisement for a
Chair at the Geology Dept of the U of Toronto. I
dont know about Canadian colleges being second to
none but I will take your word for it as you have
probably studied in one?
Unfortunately, no. I have not studied in any Canadian
college. By the time I arrived in Canada, there was
almost nothing more to learn in my field.
As for discrimination - although I do not have
statistics on racial discrimination in Canada (and
one needs numbers to
make such a serious accusation), I have read two
articles in Goa Voice,
Canada, one of which stated that new and colored
immigrants find it hard to get jobs while the second
states that first generation Canadians of Asian
parentage are often sidelined for white kids in the
job market. Although anecdotal, many of my
friends from Goa, Bombay and the Middle East who
have immigrated to Canada have found it very
hard to get jobs - especially the men and they have
complained of being severely discriminated. Or are
they are plain incompetent? A social worker
friend who works at Etobikoke has been bitterly
disappointed with the complains of racial
discrimination especially from African families. It
doesnt surprise me but its also not something I want
to discuss any further.
It seems very strange to me that you would introduce a
topic (discrimination in Canada) and at the end of
that very introduction, insist that you do not want to
discuss it :-( As far as Goan immigrants are
concerned, I have only heard of one case of a family
moving back to India. In that particular case, the dad
had a very popular band in Mumbai.
What does concern me is that in your effort to nail
Mario Gouveia you do a great disserve to many of
us who do not agree with this regime as well to
almost half the American police who did not choose
this government.
Surely this is a Freudian slip?
There are plenty of Americans who are against the
death penalty, who fight for equal rights, same
sex marriages just as there are plenty of Canadians
(including those who claim to be Goans) who
vociferously oppose the same sex marriage ruling
in Canada.
Plenty is not enough. It's the majority that count and
who get to update the laws.
Does Canada not have its conservatives who are very
much against immigration and the changing demography
of their country?
Canada needs 250,000 immigrants every year to maintain
the standard of living we have. All four political
parties understand this and actively encourage
migration.
You also do yourself a disserve because you come
across as the archetypical Canadian whose
greatest sport is American bashing.
Well, much as I would like to be liked by all, I
cannot please everyone who reads what I write.
You could do
better Mervyn - perhaps you could even advise the
droves of Goans who have taken the plunge into the
icy cold waters of Canada and help them get through
the first few difficult years. In my opinion those
postings would be extremely valuable to our Goans
rather than your polemics with Mario.
Helga, like most of the people here, we are having fun
with Mario but I go get your point. Secondly, I have
offered, even here on Goanet, to help new immigrants
to Canada.
There are many other forums where you opinions
would hold more import. As for 'Perhaps the US
should take a clue from us' I am sure that the USA
has a lot to learn from other countries and vice
versa. As a very interesting article in last
week's NYT magazine has pointed out, Reinhold
Niebuhr an intellectual who shaped the foreign
policy of early Democrats (Americans for Democratic
Action) argued that 'Americans should not emulate
the absolute confidence of their enemies' (then the
Communists) rather 'they should cultivate enough
self-doubt to ensure that their idealism never
degenerated into fanaticism'. There is benefit in
humility and there is a lesson to learn everywhere.
Perhaps, the US should learn from its friends,
particularly the French. Here is a quote from a
Frenchman:

"Power is not revealed by stricking hard or often, but
by stricking true."
_Honore de Balzac (novelist)

Lastly since I have taken the time to try and respond
to your questions, can you attempt to answer just one
of mine?
The question I have is:
In your opinion, are there two classes of US citizens?
i.e. one that can run for all offices and another that
cannot?

Mervyn3.0



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Mario Goveia
2006-05-10 13:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Lastly since I have taken the time to try and
respond to your questions, can you attempt to
In your opinion, are there two classes of US
citizens? i.e. one that can run for all offices
and another that cannot?
Mario responds:
Mervyn continues this tired refrain that is now
becoming old. The Canadians, while being a
protectorate of the US, all pay obeisance to an old
foreign lady, the Queen of England, and only people
from her family can become Canadian head-of-state. No
other Canadian either immigrant or native born can
aspire to this position. This shows that there are
two classes of Canadians:-))
Frederick [FN] Noronha
2006-05-01 18:09:49 UTC
Permalink
The debate on non-reservations
(Author known --FN)

Whether you are against or for reservations, here is an (MILLENIA) OLD ANGLE : -))

I think we should abolish reservations in all fields of endeavour. I completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this.

Let us start with reservations in the dehumanising jobs -- e.g. scavanging, cleaning the roads, prostituting of womenfolk in squalid red-light quarters etc. It is wholly unfair that this be preserved for only one section of society. In all fairness of things, some of these 'posts' need also to be 'opened up' to the self-appointed elites within our society. Only then could we expect people to be more sensitive to how dehumanising these activities really area. All those who are against reservations, should come out and stand up for their right to take on such jobs.

Secondly, we need to fight against reservations in certain professions, such as leather-work and shoe-making. If this caste-based reservations is continued, then how can our Gaitondes make it internationally to the global shoe grade, at a time when there's money in leather? This is most unfair.

Next, let us also fight against reservations that allow deprived sections of society a fair entry point (and let us also pretend that there are 'reservations' in exams). Never mind that, on the other hand, we have shown our eagerness to allow these 'inefficient' OBCs and SC/STs to win medals for the nation in international competitive and sporting events, or even die -- again on a 'reserved' quota, which we can't afford to abolish -- in the greater glory of communal conflict that seeks to take India back to the sixteenth century.

Further, though we are against reservations, we reserve the right to pretend that nine-tenths of the Indian population is inefficient, uncapable, and inept. We reserve the right to ignore the cover story in the OUTLOOK magazine, which cited cases of candidates who entered via reserved seats and went on to make brilliant academic careers for themselves.

We also reserve the right to pretend that all those who get entry to tightly-controlled access points through reservations are actually allowed to pass exams through reservations. And, of course, we reserve the right to pretend that the Indian bureaucracy, business class, academia and all other major levers of power are *not* functioning like one huge reserved quota for a very tiny, birth-defined 'elite' whose superior brainpower has however not ameliorated the harsh conditions of life for the average citizen of this country.

Let's continue raving against reservations, and yet maintain one of the most inflexible system of 'reservations' in the planet.

Long live the good breed of politicans like the author of the article below... :-))

The debate on reservations
(Author unknown)

Whether you are for or against reservations, here is a
NEW ANGLE :-))

I think we should have job reservations in all fields
of endeavor. I completely support the PM and all the
politicians for promoting this.

Let's start the reservation with our cricket team.
We should have 10 percent reservation for Muslims, 30
percent for OBC, SC/ST, etc.

Cricket rules should be modified accordingly.
The boundary circle should be reduced for an SC/ST
player. The four hit by an OBC player should be
considered as a six and a six hit by a OBC player
should be counted as 8 runs. An OBC player scoring 60
runs should be declared as a century.

We should influence ICC and make rules so that the
pace bowlers like Shoaib Akhtar should not bowl fast
balls to our OBC player. Bowlers should bowl maximum
speed of 80 kilometer per hour to an OBC player. Any
delivery above this speed should be made illegal.

Also we should have reservation in Olympics. In the
100 meters race, an OBC athlete should run only 80
meters.

There can be reservation in Government jobs also.
Let's recruit SC/ST and OBC pilots for aircrafts which
are carrying the ministers and politicians (that
should really help the country...)

Ensure that only SC/ST and OBC doctors do the
operations for the ministers and other politicians.
(Another way of helping the country...)

Let's be creative and think of more ways and means to
guide INDIA forward and "help" all Indians...

Long live the good breed of politicans like ARJUN
SINGH :-))

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick Noronha 784 Near Convent, Sonarbhat SALIGAO GOA India
Freelance Journalist TEL: +91-832-2409490 MOBILE: 9822122436
Skype/Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha www.bytesforall.net
Mario Goveia
2006-05-02 13:53:40 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick [FN] Noronha" <fred at bytesforall.org>
Post by Frederick [FN] Noronha
The debate on non-reservations
(Author known --FN)
Let us start with reservations in the dehumanising
jobs -- e.g. scavanging, cleaning the roads,
prostituting of womenfolk in squalid red-light
quarters etc. It is wholly unfair that this be
preserved for only one section of society. In all
fairness of things, some of these 'posts' need also
to be 'opened up' to the self-appointed elites
within our society. Only then could we expect people
to be more sensitive to how dehumanising these
activities really area. All those who are against
reservations, should come out and stand up for their
right to take on such jobs.
Secondly, we need to fight against reservations in
certain professions, such as leather-work and
shoe-making. If this caste-based reservations is
continued, then how can our Gaitondes make it
internationally to the global shoe grade, at a time
when there's money in leather? This is most unfair.
Next, let us also fight against reservations that
allow deprived sections of society a fair entry
point (and let us also pretend that there are
'reservations' in exams). Never mind that, on the
other hand, we have shown our eagerness to allow
these 'inefficient' OBCs and SC/STs to win medals
for the nation in international competitive and
sporting events, or even die -- again on a
'reserved' quota, which we can't afford to abolish
-- in the greater glory of communal conflict that
seeks to take India back to the sixteenth century.
Further, though we are against reservations, we
reserve the right to pretend that nine-tenths of the
Indian population is inefficient, uncapable, and
inept. We reserve the right to ignore the cover
story in the OUTLOOK magazine, which cited cases of
candidates who entered via reserved seats and went
on to make brilliant academic careers for
themselves.
We also reserve the right to pretend that all those
who get entry to tightly-controlled access points
through reservations are actually allowed to pass
exams through reservations. And, of course, we
reserve the right to pretend that the Indian
bureaucracy, business class, academia and all other
major levers of power are *not* functioning like one
huge reserved quota for a very tiny, birth-defined
'elite' whose superior brainpower has however not
ameliorated the harsh conditions of life for the
average citizen of this country.
Let's continue raving against reservations, and yet
maintain one of the most inflexible system of
'reservations' in the planet.
Mario observes:
To the Unknown Author --FN
Good idea, Unknown! Karl would be very proud:-))
Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-02 14:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Qudos to you! Dear Fred!

Reversing the 'Caste System' is the 'need of the hour'! We cannot take away
the caste out of anyone; nor would we want to; however we can definitely
demand that these caste groups do all the types of jobs for their caste
group at least; all the smart and so called lowly jobs; No more
discrimination can be tolerated in reserving the sordid jobs for certain
other castes and no-caste people!

The high and middle caste people must be made to do all of their own work!
since they think they are a race apart! This will surely put an end to the
discriminatory behavior of Indians! I have always said that this dirty
Indian Culture which belongs to ancient times and has yet to evolve modern,
and in practice is "EVIL"; this which degrades some HUMAN BEINGS and at the
same time 'worships' animals and other weird deities. The URL should be:
Worst Wicked Weird.Indianculture.

The last para quoted at the end: "Lets continue raving against reservations
and yet maintain one of the most 'inflexible' system of 'reservations' on
the planet."

That says it all. Incredible India Indeed!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.


Frederick [FN] Noronha" <fred at bytesforall.org> wrote:

Subject: [Goanet] The debate on non-reservations
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 23:39:49 +0530
I think we should abolish reservations in all fields of endeavour. I
completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this.
Let us start with reservations in the dehumanising jobs -- e.g. scavanging,
cleaning the roads, prostituting of womenfolk in squalid red-light quarters
etc. It is wholly unfair that this be preserved for only one section of
society. In all fairness of things, some of these 'posts' need also to be
'opened up' to the self-appointed elites within our society. Only then
could we expect people to be more sensitive to how dehumanising these
activities really area. All those who are against reservations, should come
out and stand up for their right to take on such jobs.
Secondly, we need to fight against reservations in certain professions,
such as leather-work and shoe-making. If this caste-based reservations is
continued, then how can our Gaitondes make it internationally to the global
shoe grade, at a time when there's money in leather? This is most unfair.
Next, let us also fight against reservations that allow deprived sections
of society a fair entry point (and let us also pretend that there are
'reservations' in exams). Never mind that, on the other hand, we have shown
our eagerness to allow these 'inefficient' OBCs and SC/STs to win medals
for the nation in international competitive and sporting events, or even
die -- again on a 'reserved' quota, which we can't afford to abolish -- in
the greater glory of communal conflict that seeks to take India back to the
sixteenth century.
"Let's continue raving against reservations, and yet maintain one of the
most inflexible system of 'reservations' in the planet".
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-03 05:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Dear Nasci,
While I understand your revulsion at practices, such
as sati and the caste system, that are totally
unacceptable in our modern context, I'm afraid the
statements you make below, make your views a little
bigoted and uninformed.

You have used the terms culture and religion
interchangeably. And I grant you that because
ultimately religion becomes nothing more than a
cultural badge.

However, Indian culture/religion is not at all about
worshiping animal deities. This is just a superficial
understanding of the religion. Vedic scripture which
dates back at least 5000 years talks about existential
concepts which western philosophers would not ponder
upon until much later. Sumerian or Canaanite mythology
of the time, which became the basis of our
Judaic-Christian religion, references nature and the
many temperaments of nature. It rarely references or
deals in details with the "soul".

I wish for everyone to take an interest in other
religions. Not as a spiritual journey but more as a
journey into other people's cultural roots.

I do agree with you Nasci that most religions, whether
Muslim, Christian or Hindu have stopped evolving over
time and the repercussions of this lack of evolution
has become the niche-market of every fundamentalist.
Our most profound thoughts seem to be behind us. Our
philosophers and saints all dead or crucified. What we
are left with today is loud rhetoric which is echoed
in the name of God and self-righteousness.

Elisabeth
-------------------------------

Nasci wrote:
this dirty
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Indian Culture which belongs to ancient times and
has yet to evolve modern,
and in practice is "EVIL"; this which degrades some
HUMAN BEINGS and at the
same time 'worships' animals and other weird
Worst Wicked Weird.Indianculture.
__________________________________________________
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Frederick Noronha
2006-05-03 08:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
To the Unknown Author --FN
Good idea, Unknown! Karl would be very proud:-))
Firstly, the author is *not* unknown. I stand by my views.

Secondly, not just Karl, but also the Advocate or the Apostle of our
Profession * and Gautama would have echoed such sentiments, I'm sure.
In fact, anyone who has some regard for the basic principles of social
justice would broadly agree with the sentiments expressed (while there
is obviously much scope for discussion over the detail).

Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and The Virtues of
Selfishness, then there's nothing here for you! FN

* http://tinyurl.com/q68ek
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | fred at bytesforall.org
Independent Journalist | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
Photographs from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Mario Goveia
2006-05-03 16:04:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frederick Noronha
Post by Mario Goveia
To the Unknown Author --FN
Good idea, Unknown! Karl would be very proud:-))
Firstly, the author is *not* unknown. I stand by my
views.
Mario observes:
Fred,
I should have recognized that "Unknown Author --FN"
was you:-))
BTW, Karl would be even more proud that you still
stand by his views that have been rejected by all the
major proponents that have actually tried it.
Post by Frederick Noronha
Secondly, not just Karl, but also the Advocate or
the Apostle of our Profession * and Gautama would
have echoed such sentiments, I'm sure. In fact,
anyone who has some regard for the basic principles
of social justice would broadly agree with the
sentiments expressed (while there is obviously much
scope for discussion over the detail).
Mario observes:
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in the
good intentions of the chef(s). If the admirable
search for social justice had been achieved by the
methods insisted on by the proponents mentioned above,
after trying so hard for so many decades, often using
coercive force, they would have been continued, not
discontinued.
If the "discussion over the detail" is to attempt yet
another version of a system which fails to recognize
the inherent ability of every individual and
subjugates these to the "wisdom" of a ruling elite,
then it is a recipe for additional failure.
Post by Frederick Noronha
Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and The
Virtues of Selfishness, then there's nothing here
for you!
Mario observes:
It's not what there is for "me" that counts, but for
most of the people most of the time. Besides, I favor
philosophers like Adam Smith, Friedrich Von Hayek,
Joseph Schumpeter and Milton Friedman, rather than a
hedonist libertine like Ayn Rand, who might evn fit
your characterisation of selfishness.
What you see as "selfishness", and its corollary
"greed", which are negative traits, leads you to
suggest that "selfless" and well-intentioned elites
know what's best for everyone else. That is the
essence of what the proponents you seem to favor
believe, and it is the fundamental flaw in their
belief and in the failure of their attempts to "help"
those "less intelligent" than them.
Any system that depends on "selfishness" and "greed"
would fail fairly quickly because of the negative
impact of these emotions on others who would then
react to the "selfishness" and "greed" to the
detriment of those who were so inclined. A recent
example in the US are the executives of companies like
Enron and Tyco and others, who are all on their way to
long prison terms and eternal disgrace.
The systems that have succeeded in helping most of
their people most of the time tap into the positive
trait called "enlightened self interest", which, by
definition, recognizes that individual and national
success depends not on "selfishness" and "greed", nor
on the patronage of a self-serving elite, but on a
serious and honest attempt to achieve a long-term
win-win philosophy for every individual.
That, in my never humble opinion, is what true social
justice should be all about.
Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-03 12:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elisabeth,

I wish to respond here, particularly because it enables me to further
explain, my revulsion when 'those practiced horrors' in the name of
religion, that have been ingested into the majority culture, for so many
centuries, are not taken care of, even in this day and age and disposed off
into the dust bin where they belong. I do not want to hurt anyone; but I do
demand change for the better!

Instead these are being propogated , endured and slyly propped up as 'good'
in the name of ethos, by the majority Hindu community. Worse that, this is
done to maintain dominant control of the so called low born by the high
born, for eternity?? There should be a Cultural Revolution, but then again,
easier said than done.

I surely understand and appreciate some of the good philosophy and thought
underlying Hindu and other religious theory and theology.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT AT ALL. PLEASE PUT THE GOOD INTO PRACTICE!

But all that philosophy can never undo or compensate all the horrors and
real harm that is perpetrated, in practice. Besides this is what affects
all; including non believers , in our day to day lives. This is my main
concern and that is why I happen to come out so strongly on these matters.
Why does this mythology not equate all Men. Why do these people not go out
to their fellow men with a human hand and a human touch; That leads me to
conclude that this is not religion but just a collection of myths, used to
subjugate and dehumanise 'other' people.

What happens 'in practice' and 'on the ground' is what matters most and
ultimately, this is the 'essence' of the bigger problem; and not what is
written in ancient philosophies. There must be 'Desegregation and an end to
'Apartheid' and Racist behavior, in every walk of life, in India!

Only then will India be freed of this 'yoke' and men (George, I'm not being
sexist here) will become more productive and social cohesion will come
about. Then only can India call itself 'a great society'; far from the
'hotch potch' or (amcheh Bhasaen) 'poch pochit' society that the majority
culture is today!

I WANT iNDIA TO BE GREAT FOR ALL OF ITS PEOPLE! THIS IS my MISSION and sole
PURPOSE in HITTING OUT AT THE WRONGS; no other motives.

I am not particularly bothered about 'other forms of worship' as such; but
my Indianness I cannot shed when I am in the company of my own type or when
I am abroad (outside India). I am almost always confronted by fellow workers
and neighbors etc: with these obscene beliefs and practices; as a result I
have to keep telling everyone that I do not believe in and or practice these
absurdities! That I am a Christian and have been enlightened!

This Indian stigma then becomes a 'trait' ascribed to all Indians
irrespective! Just like all muslims become suspect terrorists! That is why I
am compelled to revolt at every opportunity possible. I know you and people
like me, will understand what I am implying; but what I really want is for
all goanetters and all Indians to come to their senses and have a real
introspection and bring about a 'Fundamental Change' in attitudes and
practice.

Now in a lighter vein; Elisabeth! I have become a bit envious of your date
with Mario! In contrast I am offering you a 'Chateaubriand Steak' (for two)
prepared personally 'medium rare' , with a bottle of the finest 'Sparkling
Red Burgandy' on ice, to go with it! Life is GOOD on the banks of the river
Yarra! And all I want is: Hah, Hah! Hummm Hummm! jolly good company! Will
you?

See Ya!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
While I understand your revulsion at practices, such
as sati and the caste system, that are totally
unacceptable in our modern context, I'm afraid the
statements you make below, make your views a little
bigoted and uninformed.
However, Indian culture/religion is not at all about
worshiping animal deities. This is just a superficial
understanding of the religion.
I do agree with you Nasci that most religions, whether
Muslim, Christian or Hindu have stopped evolving over
time and the repercussions of this lack of evolution
has become the niche-market of every fundamentalist.
Our most profound thoughts seem to be behind us. Our
philosophers and saints all dead or crucified. What we
are left with today is loud rhetoric which is echoed
in the name of God and self-righteousness.
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-03 17:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Nasci,
Is that Burgundy Australian? Make it a fine
Californian Chardonnay and you have a date. Better
still make it Vinicola Port Wine No. 5, served out of
a plastic bottle :))
Elisabeth

----------------------------------
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Now in a lighter vein; Elisabeth! I have become a
bit envious of your date
with Mario! In contrast I am offering you a
'Chateaubriand Steak' (for two)
prepared personally 'medium rare' , with a bottle of
the finest 'Sparkling
Red Burgandy' on ice, to go with it! Life is GOOD on
the banks of the river
Yarra! And all I want is: Hah, Hah! Hummm Hummm!
jolly good company! Will
you?
See Ya!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
__________________________________________________
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-03 17:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The systems that have succeeded in helping most of
their people most of the time tap into the positive
trait called "enlightened self interest", which, by
definition, recognizes that individual and national
success depends not on "selfishness" and "greed",
nor
on the patronage of a self-serving elite, but on a
serious and honest attempt to achieve a long-term
win-win philosophy for every individual.
That, in my never humble opinion, is what true
social justice should be all about.
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0





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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-03 19:57:19 UTC
Permalink
First of all, Mario citing a flaming liberal like
Friedrick von Hayek is like the devil quoting the
scripture:) and then both Fred and Mario kick Ayn Rand
in the stomach. That's too much for a girl like me to
take in one morning :))

Can you guys please wear your labels neat and nice, so
I know what I'm dealing with :))

Elisabeth
-------------------------------------------
Post by Mario Goveia
Post by Frederick Noronha
Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and
The
Post by Frederick Noronha
Virtues of Selfishness, then there's nothing here
for you!
It's not what there is for "me" that counts, but for
most of the people most of the time. Besides, I
favor
philosophers like Adam Smith, Friedrich Von Hayek,
Joseph Schumpeter and Milton Friedman, rather than a
hedonist libertine like Ayn Rand, who might evn fit
your characterisation of selfishness.
What you see as "selfishness", and its corollary
"greed", which are negative traits, leads you to
suggest that "selfless" and well-intentioned elites
know what's best for everyone else. That is the
essence of what the proponents you seem to favor
believe, and it is the fundamental flaw in their
belief and in the failure of their attempts to
"help"
those "less intelligent" than them.
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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VABaliga
2006-05-04 04:17:56 UTC
Permalink
Nasci wrote:

Instead these are being propogated , endured and slyly propped up as 'good'
in the name of ethos, by the majority Hindu community. Worse that, this is
done to maintain dominant control of the so called low born by the high
born, for eternity?? There should be a Cultural Revolution, but then again,
easier said than done.

I surely understand and appreciate some of the good philosophy and thought
underlying Hindu and other religious theory and theology.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT AT ALL. PLEASE PUT THE GOOD INTO PRACTICE!

Nasci,

The Caste System is Hinduism's and India's curse.Perhaps you may wish to
clarify why both Hindus and Catholics in Goa practise the caste system to
this
day and why

there is such a "Bamonn" and "Chaddo" complex among the Elite?Or are they
still awaiting enlightenment like you?

Dev Tumka Boren Korum.

Vasant
Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-04 13:16:31 UTC
Permalink
Cornel,
Cairns is in Queensland, and is a hot spot there, being a gateway to the
great Australian Barrier Reef. I do not know of Croc meat; but some places
have service with Kangaroo meat if some one wants it. The Yarra is
Melbourne's ;muddy'// river; not so bad'; developed all over, in the city
area with beaut parks, restaurants alfresco style, and shopping malls with
boutique shops, etc. A wide and long promenade along the river, with bicycle
tracks is one of the highlights, of the Yarra. You probably seen the sheer
beauty of the area, if you watched the Commonwealth Games recently.

Beef is one or Australia's finer meat produce; and is exported in large
quantities specially to Japan and SE Asia. Mouth watering! I go for Beef and
Veal, most times; hate lamb, as it also smells a bit compared to Goat meat.

But there is also, so called 'Kobe Beef' produced in Japan in limited
quantities, is very good! This Kobe Beef is produced by feeding Cattle with
imported special Hay from the USA and other nourishments like beer and Saki
etc. There is a chain of restaurants in Japan which cater exclusively to
Kobe Beef. Only those who visit Japan know about it. Otherwise people think
that Japan has no beef of its own.

As for Vinicola in plastic bottles, I am surprised too! As recently, in
Margao at Christmas time I was presented with Vinicola in a glass (Ketchup
size) bottle, by a Goan Lady from London on holiday.

First time I ate 'horse meat' was in Hamburg, Germany; when a German friend
intoduced the same to me as 'Wurst' the popular German sausage. I believe
they learnt to eat horse during the War Days, when meat was scarce; Only
certain parts of horse are eaten; I like the taste though; could not make
out the difference.

See Ya!
Nasci Caldeira.
Post by cornel
Nasci
Wouldn't a crocodile steak be better on the banks of the Yarra? I only
discovered the availability of crocodile when asked if I wanted it in my
burger in Cairns. I was as surprised as when offered horse in Belgium once.
I did eat the horse but not the croc!
Cornel
PS The plastic bottles for wine in Goa took my edge off Vinicola recently.
Why plastic?
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-04 14:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Dear Cornel,
Seems like you enjoyed your trip. I think the wine is
bottled in plastic rather than glass probably because
plastic is cheaper.

You should have tried the croc. I've never had but
have had alligator here in the US. It's sort of like
chicken and with a little tartar sauce can be quite
nice.

I also agree with you that the prospect of India
joining superpower status within the next few decades
is a myth. Even with foreign investment and the
multiplier effect in full force, it cannot generate
enough ripples to bring 60% of the population out of
poverty within a short span of time. Simultaneously
unlike China, no concerted efforts are being made to
curb population by either party.

Even Goldman Sachs in their follow up to BRICs, make
note of the fact that despite huge strides being made
in the aggregate economy, personal incomes will be
only a fraction of those enjoyed in the west.
Increases in GDP of countries with such large
population means little to the PCI.

Also, the CPI in India, continuously puts a wrench in
the corporate wheels of India by objecting to
dismantling of PSUs, increases in foreign investment
in vital sectors and its general dislike of anything
be it investment or ideas imported from the West. We
have to overhaul the political system itself by
reducing the impact of regional politics if we want to
cohesively impact national economics.

And that's my morning dose of pontificating!
Elisabeth
-----------------------------------------
Post by cornel
Nasci
Wouldn't a crocodile steak be better on the banks of
the Yarra? I only
discovered the availability of crocodile when asked
if I wanted it in my
burger in Cairns. I was as surprised as when offered
horse in Belgium once.
I did eat the horse but not the croc!
Cornel
PS The plastic bottles for wine in Goa took my edge
off Vinicola recently.
Why plastic?
----- Original Message -----
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Mario Goveia
2006-05-04 15:59:14 UTC
Permalink
--- Elisabeth Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
First of all, Mario citing a flaming liberal like
Friedrick von Hayek is like the devil quoting the
scripture:) and then both Fred and Mario kick Ayn
Rand in the stomach. That's too much for a girl
like me to take in one morning :))
Can you guys please wear your labels neat and nice,
so I know what I'm dealing with :))
Mario clarifies:
Elisabeth,
You need to be careful not to confuse classic liberal
democrats, who stood for free market capitalism, with
modern political liberals who follow a socialist
philosophy. For example, President John F. Kennedy, a
Democrat who believed in a strong national defense and
lower taxes, would be a total misfit in the modern
Democrat party, dominated by his ultra-socialist
brother, Ted Kennedy.
Thus Friedrich von Hayek was not a flaming liberal in
the modern political context. Here is how Fred's
favorite encyclopedia describes him:
"Friedrich August von Hayek (May 8, 1899 in Vienna ?
March 23, 1992 in Freiburg) was an Austrian economist
and political philosopher, noted for his defense of
liberal democracy and free-market capitalism against
socialist and collectivist thought in the mid-20th
century"
I had no intentions of kicking Ayn anywhere - only to
emphasize the free market economists and philosophers
that I favor the most. She definitely belongs to my
end of the philosophical spectrum, but because she
used fiction as her medium, and was personally a
hedonist and libertine, she is easily vilified and
deliberately misunderstood by the other end, as Fred
illustrated.
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-04 19:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Mervyn3.0
I think you are confusing affirmative action with
"jobs being reserved". Affirmative action requires a
conscientious effort by the employer to diversify its
work-group. To this end, the employer may have a plan
drawn out as to how it will achieve this goal.
Generally the "4/5 rule" applies to ensure that
discrimination of minorities has not taken place and
that each minority has been represented in the final
selection, given the total applicant pool.

Elisabeth
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US
are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0
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Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-04 13:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Dear Vasant,

I agree with you; but u should also know that the prevalence of the caste
system among Christians in Goa, and perhaps in Mangalore too, is not that
much enforced or put in practice. Since a lot of the Christians in Goa and
Mangalore inherited their High or low caste, from their Hindu ancestry, they
cannot shed their caste so easily as they are all living and breathing among
their Hindu brothers and sisters. So I would think that whilst retaining
their high caste because they are born thus; they do not practice the harsh
practices of the Hindu high caste. There are exceptions; but then again
these have inherited and not created the system. Again thats no excuse.

The caste system is not only religious but has become cultural over the
centuries; So what is required is for all to join in the Cultural
Revolution, that I would like to happen. Yes , their enlightenment is not
complete if they still practice the caste in practice. Remember, the old
'inquisitions' were all about this!

Enlightenment is about my not believing and worshipping animals and reptiles
and other weird deities, and or looking down at fellow humans, sorely based
on their birth! Understand Vasant??

Threfore all of India's varied societies must learn to integrate culturally
and in every way possible; whilst at the same time keeping their religious
practices strictly private!. Bye now. More on this later.

Nasci Caldeira
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
Nasci,
The Caste System is Hinduism's and India's curse.Perhaps you may wish to
clarify why both Hindus and Catholics in Goa practise the caste system to
this
day and why
there is such a "Bamonn" and "Chaddo" complex among the Elite?Or are they
still awaiting enlightenment like you?
Dev Tumka Boren Korum.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-05 19:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Mervyn3.0
I think you are confusing affirmative action with
"jobs being reserved". Affirmative action requires a
conscientious effort by the employer to diversify
its
work-group. To this end, the employer may have a
plan
drawn out as to how it will achieve this goal.
Generally the "4/5 rule" applies to ensure that
discrimination of minorities has not taken place and
that each minority has been represented in the final
selection, given the total applicant pool.
Elisabeth,
The "job being reserved" I was alluding to is the one
of President. How would you explain to us here that
you accept being deprived, by law, from becoming the
President of the USA?

Mervyn3.0
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US
are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-06 01:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Helga do Rosario Gomes
Perhaps Mervyn, you should also explain why Canada
gives first preference for jobs in Canadian
Universities and research institutions to Canadians.
Helga,
Just last week, the new conservative govt changed the
rules allowing foreign students to secure jobs both on
and off campus.
Post by Helga do Rosario Gomes
Would you not want the best of professors and
scientists especially if you could attract them?
Canadian colleges, I am told, are second to none. Most
of the faculty members are foreign born. The US
supplies the largest percentage of non-Canadian
academics.

I have yet to hear of any law that allows for the
discrimination of Canadian residents, residents - let
alone citizens. Perhaps the US should take a clue from
us ;-)

Mervyn3.0





Mervyn3.0





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Mario Goveia
2006-05-06 20:23:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Elisabeth,
The "job being reserved" I was alluding to is the
one of President. How would you explain to us here
that you accept being deprived, by law, from
becoming the President of the USA?
Mario observes:
This is a curious, if not peculiar standard coming
from a Canadian resident, a country that pays
obeisance to an old foreign lady, and no one outside
her family can become Canadian head-of-state :-))
cornel
2006-05-07 03:12:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Elizabeth
Many thanks for your response and also for sharing my doubts of the
imminence, repeat, imminence, of super-power status for India. I hope Mario
will make note of what you have said too.

I quite badly want India to do well in the super-power race if for no other
reason than to see Asians taking their rightful place after historic
displacement by people of European origins. But I believe that anticipation
of such potential achievement must not be over-exaggerated when there is no
hard evidence to support such a view, especially on the most important issue
of quality control. On this general issue, Mario may be rushing where angels
fear to ... etc.

Cornel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elisabeth Carvalho"
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I also agree with you that the prospect of India
joining superpower status within the next few decades
is a myth. Even with foreign investment and the
multiplier effect in full force, it cannot generate
enough ripples to bring 60% of the population out of
poverty within a short span of time. Simultaneously
unlike China, no concerted efforts are being made to
curb population by either party.
Mario Goveia
2006-05-06 20:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Canadian colleges, I am told, are second to none.
Most of the faculty members are foreign born. The US
supplies the largest percentage of non-Canadian
academics.
Mario replies:
I don't know about second to none because of the large
number of Canadian students flocking to US
universities. But probably acceptable due to the US
academics who cannot find positions at US
universities.
Post by Mervyn Lobo
I have yet to hear of any law that allows for the
discrimination of Canadian residents, residents -
let alone citizens. Perhaps the US should take a
clue from us ;-)
Mario replies:
As the US's protectorate and 51 state, the "clues" all
go the other way, Mervyn:-))
Jerry Fernandes
2006-05-08 05:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Hello All

Centuries ago, whoever devised these caste systems had done it maybe to
segregate people and their jobs. Was it a good system?

As per the defination given on websters encyclopedia, It's a division of
society into closed groups, primarily by birth, but usually also involving
religion and occupation. The most caste based society today is that of Hindu
India. Its caste system, dating from 3000 B.C. was not discouraged until
recently.

Well the castes were mainly divided in four groups, Brahmins (religious
leaders, Kshatriya ( fighters) , Vasishya ( Business men), and Suddras
(Workers). Well given the four above caste systems, what has changed? Its
still practiced. As mentioned, did this caste system start the way it is or
was it used by the Brahmins to suite themselves and hence started treating
the working society as dust on the road? I feel that the original idea of
the caste system was not the way it came to be practiced gradually. It was
an allotment of work of different kinds to the people where by the society
could be maintained. But later on it must have derived completely a
different meaning.

Now with all these reservations, what is lost is that the working of
different castes is interchanging where by now sudaras are becoming priests,
or business man, or even joining the army. So what happens to the jobs that
the working class is leaving vacant? We end up getting outsiders for those
jobs? And than we shout, baile borleat Goem or other places. What would have
happened if this had not happened? The working class would be working class
and with now a days the days charges being almost Rs 300 would have earned
about 9000 or more tax free money depending on their enthusiasms of work
instead of waiting for once a month salary.

Cheers

Jerry Fernandes
Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-09 12:34:05 UTC
Permalink
From your posts Mervyn, I have already figured out
that Canada is the best country to live in! If only
we could be so lucky.
Helga,
I moved to Canada from the US. The reward? Canada has
been voted by the UN as "the best country in the world
to live in" about ten times in the dozen years I have
been here. Come on over, it is a great country.
My comment is in regard to Canadian job postings
that I read in 'EOS', the American Geophysical
Union's newsletter and other Earth Sciences job
sites which state that Canadian citizens and
permanent residents will be given preference.
Specifically, last week I saw an advertisement for a
Chair at the Geology Dept of the U of Toronto. I
dont know about Canadian colleges being second to
none but I will take your word for it as you have
probably studied in one?
Unfortunately, no. I have not studied in any Canadian
college. By the time I arrived in Canada, there was
almost nothing more to learn in my field.
As for discrimination - although I do not have
statistics on racial discrimination in Canada (and
one needs numbers to
make such a serious accusation), I have read two
articles in Goa Voice,
Canada, one of which stated that new and colored
immigrants find it hard to get jobs while the second
states that first generation Canadians of Asian
parentage are often sidelined for white kids in the
job market. Although anecdotal, many of my
friends from Goa, Bombay and the Middle East who
have immigrated to Canada have found it very
hard to get jobs - especially the men and they have
complained of being severely discriminated. Or are
they are plain incompetent? A social worker
friend who works at Etobikoke has been bitterly
disappointed with the complains of racial
discrimination especially from African families. It
doesnt surprise me but its also not something I want
to discuss any further.
It seems very strange to me that you would introduce a
topic (discrimination in Canada) and at the end of
that very introduction, insist that you do not want to
discuss it :-( As far as Goan immigrants are
concerned, I have only heard of one case of a family
moving back to India. In that particular case, the dad
had a very popular band in Mumbai.
What does concern me is that in your effort to nail
Mario Gouveia you do a great disserve to many of
us who do not agree with this regime as well to
almost half the American police who did not choose
this government.
Surely this is a Freudian slip?
There are plenty of Americans who are against the
death penalty, who fight for equal rights, same
sex marriages just as there are plenty of Canadians
(including those who claim to be Goans) who
vociferously oppose the same sex marriage ruling
in Canada.
Plenty is not enough. It's the majority that count and
who get to update the laws.
Does Canada not have its conservatives who are very
much against immigration and the changing demography
of their country?
Canada needs 250,000 immigrants every year to maintain
the standard of living we have. All four political
parties understand this and actively encourage
migration.
You also do yourself a disserve because you come
across as the archetypical Canadian whose
greatest sport is American bashing.
Well, much as I would like to be liked by all, I
cannot please everyone who reads what I write.
You could do
better Mervyn - perhaps you could even advise the
droves of Goans who have taken the plunge into the
icy cold waters of Canada and help them get through
the first few difficult years. In my opinion those
postings would be extremely valuable to our Goans
rather than your polemics with Mario.
Helga, like most of the people here, we are having fun
with Mario but I go get your point. Secondly, I have
offered, even here on Goanet, to help new immigrants
to Canada.
There are many other forums where you opinions
would hold more import. As for 'Perhaps the US
should take a clue from us' I am sure that the USA
has a lot to learn from other countries and vice
versa. As a very interesting article in last
week's NYT magazine has pointed out, Reinhold
Niebuhr an intellectual who shaped the foreign
policy of early Democrats (Americans for Democratic
Action) argued that 'Americans should not emulate
the absolute confidence of their enemies' (then the
Communists) rather 'they should cultivate enough
self-doubt to ensure that their idealism never
degenerated into fanaticism'. There is benefit in
humility and there is a lesson to learn everywhere.
Perhaps, the US should learn from its friends,
particularly the French. Here is a quote from a
Frenchman:

"Power is not revealed by stricking hard or often, but
by stricking true."
_Honore de Balzac (novelist)

Lastly since I have taken the time to try and respond
to your questions, can you attempt to answer just one
of mine?
The question I have is:
In your opinion, are there two classes of US citizens?
i.e. one that can run for all offices and another that
cannot?

Mervyn3.0



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Mario Goveia
2006-05-10 13:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Lastly since I have taken the time to try and
respond to your questions, can you attempt to
In your opinion, are there two classes of US
citizens? i.e. one that can run for all offices
and another that cannot?
Mario responds:
Mervyn continues this tired refrain that is now
becoming old. The Canadians, while being a
protectorate of the US, all pay obeisance to an old
foreign lady, the Queen of England, and only people
from her family can become Canadian head-of-state. No
other Canadian either immigrant or native born can
aspire to this position. This shows that there are
two classes of Canadians:-))
Frederick [FN] Noronha
2006-05-01 18:09:49 UTC
Permalink
The debate on non-reservations
(Author known --FN)

Whether you are against or for reservations, here is an (MILLENIA) OLD ANGLE : -))

I think we should abolish reservations in all fields of endeavour. I completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this.

Let us start with reservations in the dehumanising jobs -- e.g. scavanging, cleaning the roads, prostituting of womenfolk in squalid red-light quarters etc. It is wholly unfair that this be preserved for only one section of society. In all fairness of things, some of these 'posts' need also to be 'opened up' to the self-appointed elites within our society. Only then could we expect people to be more sensitive to how dehumanising these activities really area. All those who are against reservations, should come out and stand up for their right to take on such jobs.

Secondly, we need to fight against reservations in certain professions, such as leather-work and shoe-making. If this caste-based reservations is continued, then how can our Gaitondes make it internationally to the global shoe grade, at a time when there's money in leather? This is most unfair.

Next, let us also fight against reservations that allow deprived sections of society a fair entry point (and let us also pretend that there are 'reservations' in exams). Never mind that, on the other hand, we have shown our eagerness to allow these 'inefficient' OBCs and SC/STs to win medals for the nation in international competitive and sporting events, or even die -- again on a 'reserved' quota, which we can't afford to abolish -- in the greater glory of communal conflict that seeks to take India back to the sixteenth century.

Further, though we are against reservations, we reserve the right to pretend that nine-tenths of the Indian population is inefficient, uncapable, and inept. We reserve the right to ignore the cover story in the OUTLOOK magazine, which cited cases of candidates who entered via reserved seats and went on to make brilliant academic careers for themselves.

We also reserve the right to pretend that all those who get entry to tightly-controlled access points through reservations are actually allowed to pass exams through reservations. And, of course, we reserve the right to pretend that the Indian bureaucracy, business class, academia and all other major levers of power are *not* functioning like one huge reserved quota for a very tiny, birth-defined 'elite' whose superior brainpower has however not ameliorated the harsh conditions of life for the average citizen of this country.

Let's continue raving against reservations, and yet maintain one of the most inflexible system of 'reservations' in the planet.

Long live the good breed of politicans like the author of the article below... :-))

The debate on reservations
(Author unknown)

Whether you are for or against reservations, here is a
NEW ANGLE :-))

I think we should have job reservations in all fields
of endeavor. I completely support the PM and all the
politicians for promoting this.

Let's start the reservation with our cricket team.
We should have 10 percent reservation for Muslims, 30
percent for OBC, SC/ST, etc.

Cricket rules should be modified accordingly.
The boundary circle should be reduced for an SC/ST
player. The four hit by an OBC player should be
considered as a six and a six hit by a OBC player
should be counted as 8 runs. An OBC player scoring 60
runs should be declared as a century.

We should influence ICC and make rules so that the
pace bowlers like Shoaib Akhtar should not bowl fast
balls to our OBC player. Bowlers should bowl maximum
speed of 80 kilometer per hour to an OBC player. Any
delivery above this speed should be made illegal.

Also we should have reservation in Olympics. In the
100 meters race, an OBC athlete should run only 80
meters.

There can be reservation in Government jobs also.
Let's recruit SC/ST and OBC pilots for aircrafts which
are carrying the ministers and politicians (that
should really help the country...)

Ensure that only SC/ST and OBC doctors do the
operations for the ministers and other politicians.
(Another way of helping the country...)

Let's be creative and think of more ways and means to
guide INDIA forward and "help" all Indians...

Long live the good breed of politicans like ARJUN
SINGH :-))

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick Noronha 784 Near Convent, Sonarbhat SALIGAO GOA India
Freelance Journalist TEL: +91-832-2409490 MOBILE: 9822122436
Skype/Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha www.bytesforall.net
Mario Goveia
2006-05-02 13:53:40 UTC
Permalink
--- "Frederick [FN] Noronha" <fred at bytesforall.org>
Post by Frederick [FN] Noronha
The debate on non-reservations
(Author known --FN)
Let us start with reservations in the dehumanising
jobs -- e.g. scavanging, cleaning the roads,
prostituting of womenfolk in squalid red-light
quarters etc. It is wholly unfair that this be
preserved for only one section of society. In all
fairness of things, some of these 'posts' need also
to be 'opened up' to the self-appointed elites
within our society. Only then could we expect people
to be more sensitive to how dehumanising these
activities really area. All those who are against
reservations, should come out and stand up for their
right to take on such jobs.
Secondly, we need to fight against reservations in
certain professions, such as leather-work and
shoe-making. If this caste-based reservations is
continued, then how can our Gaitondes make it
internationally to the global shoe grade, at a time
when there's money in leather? This is most unfair.
Next, let us also fight against reservations that
allow deprived sections of society a fair entry
point (and let us also pretend that there are
'reservations' in exams). Never mind that, on the
other hand, we have shown our eagerness to allow
these 'inefficient' OBCs and SC/STs to win medals
for the nation in international competitive and
sporting events, or even die -- again on a
'reserved' quota, which we can't afford to abolish
-- in the greater glory of communal conflict that
seeks to take India back to the sixteenth century.
Further, though we are against reservations, we
reserve the right to pretend that nine-tenths of the
Indian population is inefficient, uncapable, and
inept. We reserve the right to ignore the cover
story in the OUTLOOK magazine, which cited cases of
candidates who entered via reserved seats and went
on to make brilliant academic careers for
themselves.
We also reserve the right to pretend that all those
who get entry to tightly-controlled access points
through reservations are actually allowed to pass
exams through reservations. And, of course, we
reserve the right to pretend that the Indian
bureaucracy, business class, academia and all other
major levers of power are *not* functioning like one
huge reserved quota for a very tiny, birth-defined
'elite' whose superior brainpower has however not
ameliorated the harsh conditions of life for the
average citizen of this country.
Let's continue raving against reservations, and yet
maintain one of the most inflexible system of
'reservations' in the planet.
Mario observes:
To the Unknown Author --FN
Good idea, Unknown! Karl would be very proud:-))
Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-02 14:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Qudos to you! Dear Fred!

Reversing the 'Caste System' is the 'need of the hour'! We cannot take away
the caste out of anyone; nor would we want to; however we can definitely
demand that these caste groups do all the types of jobs for their caste
group at least; all the smart and so called lowly jobs; No more
discrimination can be tolerated in reserving the sordid jobs for certain
other castes and no-caste people!

The high and middle caste people must be made to do all of their own work!
since they think they are a race apart! This will surely put an end to the
discriminatory behavior of Indians! I have always said that this dirty
Indian Culture which belongs to ancient times and has yet to evolve modern,
and in practice is "EVIL"; this which degrades some HUMAN BEINGS and at the
same time 'worships' animals and other weird deities. The URL should be:
Worst Wicked Weird.Indianculture.

The last para quoted at the end: "Lets continue raving against reservations
and yet maintain one of the most 'inflexible' system of 'reservations' on
the planet."

That says it all. Incredible India Indeed!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.


Frederick [FN] Noronha" <fred at bytesforall.org> wrote:

Subject: [Goanet] The debate on non-reservations
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 23:39:49 +0530
I think we should abolish reservations in all fields of endeavour. I
completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this.
Let us start with reservations in the dehumanising jobs -- e.g. scavanging,
cleaning the roads, prostituting of womenfolk in squalid red-light quarters
etc. It is wholly unfair that this be preserved for only one section of
society. In all fairness of things, some of these 'posts' need also to be
'opened up' to the self-appointed elites within our society. Only then
could we expect people to be more sensitive to how dehumanising these
activities really area. All those who are against reservations, should come
out and stand up for their right to take on such jobs.
Secondly, we need to fight against reservations in certain professions,
such as leather-work and shoe-making. If this caste-based reservations is
continued, then how can our Gaitondes make it internationally to the global
shoe grade, at a time when there's money in leather? This is most unfair.
Next, let us also fight against reservations that allow deprived sections
of society a fair entry point (and let us also pretend that there are
'reservations' in exams). Never mind that, on the other hand, we have shown
our eagerness to allow these 'inefficient' OBCs and SC/STs to win medals
for the nation in international competitive and sporting events, or even
die -- again on a 'reserved' quota, which we can't afford to abolish -- in
the greater glory of communal conflict that seeks to take India back to the
sixteenth century.
"Let's continue raving against reservations, and yet maintain one of the
most inflexible system of 'reservations' in the planet".
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-03 05:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Dear Nasci,
While I understand your revulsion at practices, such
as sati and the caste system, that are totally
unacceptable in our modern context, I'm afraid the
statements you make below, make your views a little
bigoted and uninformed.

You have used the terms culture and religion
interchangeably. And I grant you that because
ultimately religion becomes nothing more than a
cultural badge.

However, Indian culture/religion is not at all about
worshiping animal deities. This is just a superficial
understanding of the religion. Vedic scripture which
dates back at least 5000 years talks about existential
concepts which western philosophers would not ponder
upon until much later. Sumerian or Canaanite mythology
of the time, which became the basis of our
Judaic-Christian religion, references nature and the
many temperaments of nature. It rarely references or
deals in details with the "soul".

I wish for everyone to take an interest in other
religions. Not as a spiritual journey but more as a
journey into other people's cultural roots.

I do agree with you Nasci that most religions, whether
Muslim, Christian or Hindu have stopped evolving over
time and the repercussions of this lack of evolution
has become the niche-market of every fundamentalist.
Our most profound thoughts seem to be behind us. Our
philosophers and saints all dead or crucified. What we
are left with today is loud rhetoric which is echoed
in the name of God and self-righteousness.

Elisabeth
-------------------------------

Nasci wrote:
this dirty
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Indian Culture which belongs to ancient times and
has yet to evolve modern,
and in practice is "EVIL"; this which degrades some
HUMAN BEINGS and at the
same time 'worships' animals and other weird
Worst Wicked Weird.Indianculture.
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Frederick Noronha
2006-05-03 08:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
To the Unknown Author --FN
Good idea, Unknown! Karl would be very proud:-))
Firstly, the author is *not* unknown. I stand by my views.

Secondly, not just Karl, but also the Advocate or the Apostle of our
Profession * and Gautama would have echoed such sentiments, I'm sure.
In fact, anyone who has some regard for the basic principles of social
justice would broadly agree with the sentiments expressed (while there
is obviously much scope for discussion over the detail).

Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and The Virtues of
Selfishness, then there's nothing here for you! FN

* http://tinyurl.com/q68ek
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha
http://fn.goa-india.org | fred at bytesforall.org
Independent Journalist | +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436
----------------------------------------------------------
Photographs from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Mario Goveia
2006-05-03 16:04:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frederick Noronha
Post by Mario Goveia
To the Unknown Author --FN
Good idea, Unknown! Karl would be very proud:-))
Firstly, the author is *not* unknown. I stand by my
views.
Mario observes:
Fred,
I should have recognized that "Unknown Author --FN"
was you:-))
BTW, Karl would be even more proud that you still
stand by his views that have been rejected by all the
major proponents that have actually tried it.
Post by Frederick Noronha
Secondly, not just Karl, but also the Advocate or
the Apostle of our Profession * and Gautama would
have echoed such sentiments, I'm sure. In fact,
anyone who has some regard for the basic principles
of social justice would broadly agree with the
sentiments expressed (while there is obviously much
scope for discussion over the detail).
Mario observes:
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not in the
good intentions of the chef(s). If the admirable
search for social justice had been achieved by the
methods insisted on by the proponents mentioned above,
after trying so hard for so many decades, often using
coercive force, they would have been continued, not
discontinued.
If the "discussion over the detail" is to attempt yet
another version of a system which fails to recognize
the inherent ability of every individual and
subjugates these to the "wisdom" of a ruling elite,
then it is a recipe for additional failure.
Post by Frederick Noronha
Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and The
Virtues of Selfishness, then there's nothing here
for you!
Mario observes:
It's not what there is for "me" that counts, but for
most of the people most of the time. Besides, I favor
philosophers like Adam Smith, Friedrich Von Hayek,
Joseph Schumpeter and Milton Friedman, rather than a
hedonist libertine like Ayn Rand, who might evn fit
your characterisation of selfishness.
What you see as "selfishness", and its corollary
"greed", which are negative traits, leads you to
suggest that "selfless" and well-intentioned elites
know what's best for everyone else. That is the
essence of what the proponents you seem to favor
believe, and it is the fundamental flaw in their
belief and in the failure of their attempts to "help"
those "less intelligent" than them.
Any system that depends on "selfishness" and "greed"
would fail fairly quickly because of the negative
impact of these emotions on others who would then
react to the "selfishness" and "greed" to the
detriment of those who were so inclined. A recent
example in the US are the executives of companies like
Enron and Tyco and others, who are all on their way to
long prison terms and eternal disgrace.
The systems that have succeeded in helping most of
their people most of the time tap into the positive
trait called "enlightened self interest", which, by
definition, recognizes that individual and national
success depends not on "selfishness" and "greed", nor
on the patronage of a self-serving elite, but on a
serious and honest attempt to achieve a long-term
win-win philosophy for every individual.
That, in my never humble opinion, is what true social
justice should be all about.
Nasci Caldeira
2006-05-03 12:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Dear Elisabeth,

I wish to respond here, particularly because it enables me to further
explain, my revulsion when 'those practiced horrors' in the name of
religion, that have been ingested into the majority culture, for so many
centuries, are not taken care of, even in this day and age and disposed off
into the dust bin where they belong. I do not want to hurt anyone; but I do
demand change for the better!

Instead these are being propogated , endured and slyly propped up as 'good'
in the name of ethos, by the majority Hindu community. Worse that, this is
done to maintain dominant control of the so called low born by the high
born, for eternity?? There should be a Cultural Revolution, but then again,
easier said than done.

I surely understand and appreciate some of the good philosophy and thought
underlying Hindu and other religious theory and theology.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT AT ALL. PLEASE PUT THE GOOD INTO PRACTICE!

But all that philosophy can never undo or compensate all the horrors and
real harm that is perpetrated, in practice. Besides this is what affects
all; including non believers , in our day to day lives. This is my main
concern and that is why I happen to come out so strongly on these matters.
Why does this mythology not equate all Men. Why do these people not go out
to their fellow men with a human hand and a human touch; That leads me to
conclude that this is not religion but just a collection of myths, used to
subjugate and dehumanise 'other' people.

What happens 'in practice' and 'on the ground' is what matters most and
ultimately, this is the 'essence' of the bigger problem; and not what is
written in ancient philosophies. There must be 'Desegregation and an end to
'Apartheid' and Racist behavior, in every walk of life, in India!

Only then will India be freed of this 'yoke' and men (George, I'm not being
sexist here) will become more productive and social cohesion will come
about. Then only can India call itself 'a great society'; far from the
'hotch potch' or (amcheh Bhasaen) 'poch pochit' society that the majority
culture is today!

I WANT iNDIA TO BE GREAT FOR ALL OF ITS PEOPLE! THIS IS my MISSION and sole
PURPOSE in HITTING OUT AT THE WRONGS; no other motives.

I am not particularly bothered about 'other forms of worship' as such; but
my Indianness I cannot shed when I am in the company of my own type or when
I am abroad (outside India). I am almost always confronted by fellow workers
and neighbors etc: with these obscene beliefs and practices; as a result I
have to keep telling everyone that I do not believe in and or practice these
absurdities! That I am a Christian and have been enlightened!

This Indian stigma then becomes a 'trait' ascribed to all Indians
irrespective! Just like all muslims become suspect terrorists! That is why I
am compelled to revolt at every opportunity possible. I know you and people
like me, will understand what I am implying; but what I really want is for
all goanetters and all Indians to come to their senses and have a real
introspection and bring about a 'Fundamental Change' in attitudes and
practice.

Now in a lighter vein; Elisabeth! I have become a bit envious of your date
with Mario! In contrast I am offering you a 'Chateaubriand Steak' (for two)
prepared personally 'medium rare' , with a bottle of the finest 'Sparkling
Red Burgandy' on ice, to go with it! Life is GOOD on the banks of the river
Yarra! And all I want is: Hah, Hah! Hummm Hummm! jolly good company! Will
you?

See Ya!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
While I understand your revulsion at practices, such
as sati and the caste system, that are totally
unacceptable in our modern context, I'm afraid the
statements you make below, make your views a little
bigoted and uninformed.
However, Indian culture/religion is not at all about
worshiping animal deities. This is just a superficial
understanding of the religion.
I do agree with you Nasci that most religions, whether
Muslim, Christian or Hindu have stopped evolving over
time and the repercussions of this lack of evolution
has become the niche-market of every fundamentalist.
Our most profound thoughts seem to be behind us. Our
philosophers and saints all dead or crucified. What we
are left with today is loud rhetoric which is echoed
in the name of God and self-righteousness.
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-03 17:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Nasci,
Is that Burgundy Australian? Make it a fine
Californian Chardonnay and you have a date. Better
still make it Vinicola Port Wine No. 5, served out of
a plastic bottle :))
Elisabeth

----------------------------------
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Now in a lighter vein; Elisabeth! I have become a
bit envious of your date
with Mario! In contrast I am offering you a
'Chateaubriand Steak' (for two)
prepared personally 'medium rare' , with a bottle of
the finest 'Sparkling
Red Burgandy' on ice, to go with it! Life is GOOD on
the banks of the river
Yarra! And all I want is: Hah, Hah! Hummm Hummm!
jolly good company! Will
you?
See Ya!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Down Under.
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-05-03 17:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The systems that have succeeded in helping most of
their people most of the time tap into the positive
trait called "enlightened self interest", which, by
definition, recognizes that individual and national
success depends not on "selfishness" and "greed",
nor
on the patronage of a self-serving elite, but on a
serious and honest attempt to achieve a long-term
win-win philosophy for every individual.
That, in my never humble opinion, is what true
social justice should be all about.
Nice try, Mario.
Now try and explain to us why some jobs in the US are
reserved, by law, for only a section of the
popluation.
Mervyn3.0





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Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-05-03 19:57:19 UTC
Permalink
First of all, Mario citing a flaming liberal like
Friedrick von Hayek is like the devil quoting the
scripture:) and then both Fred and Mario kick Ayn Rand
in the stomach. That's too much for a girl like me to
take in one morning :))

Can you guys please wear your labels neat and nice, so
I know what I'm dealing with :))

Elisabeth
-------------------------------------------
Post by Mario Goveia
Post by Frederick Noronha
Of course if you're in the camp of Ann Rynd and
The
Post by Frederick Noronha
Virtues of Selfishness, then there's nothing here
for you!
It's not what there is for "me" that counts, but for
most of the people most of the time. Besides, I
favor
philosophers like Adam Smith, Friedrich Von Hayek,
Joseph Schumpeter and Milton Friedman, rather than a
hedonist libertine like Ayn Rand, who might evn fit
your characterisation of selfishness.
What you see as "selfishness", and its corollary
"greed", which are negative traits, leads you to
suggest that "selfless" and well-intentioned elites
know what's best for everyone else. That is the
essence of what the proponents you seem to favor
believe, and it is the fundamental flaw in their
belief and in the failure of their attempts to
"help"
those "less intelligent" than them.
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

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