Discussion:
Panjim/ Panaji Stinks
(too old to reply)
anil desai
2008-02-24 17:21:49 UTC
Permalink
I read about this in today's Goan papers as well. Can some one on the ground
please inform goanetters whether the stench is emanating just from the
uncollected garbage or whether the decaying congress administration is
contributing to it too?
Dr Anil Desai
Bosco D'Mello
2008-02-25 03:16:17 UTC
Permalink
<Don't understand why the Mayor got involved or what business he had at the
police station on that fateful night?>

RESPONSE: Thank you JoeGoaUK for your photos that say more than a hundred
words in print or on the phone. By paying their taxes, the citizens that
live within the purvey of the Panjim municipality have a contract with the
CCP. By forcing its employees to go on strike, and not collecting garbage,
the CCP has broken this contract. I have a suggestion for the citizens of
Panjim. Take your garbage and dump it at the office and/or home of the
corporator of your ward. If you have leftover garbage, dump it outside the
CCP office and if you still have leftover garbage dump it outside the office
and/or home of your MLA. These are the people you elected to public office
to serve you. Rest assured, serving you is not at the top of their agenda.

<I read about this in today's Goan papers as well. Can some one on the
ground please inform goanetters whether the stench is emanating just from
the uncollected garbage or whether the decaying congress administration is
contributing to it too?>

RESPONSE: 9 months later, the Congress-led Government of Goa should realize
that come what may, they will not be allowed to govern the state. There will
always be some poor sob who will derail every attempt the government of the
day makes that relate to governing of the state and its people. Every
politician of every party has demonstrated time and again that unless they
have a 'kodel', they will not allow anybody else to sit in it peacefully.

As far as our politicians are concerned, personal compulsions far outweigh
the needs of the state of Goa and its people. And I mean politicians at
every level - from the panch, sarpanch.......all the way up to the highest
political office in the state.
From the Navhind Times, Feb 25, 2008: The acting CCP mayor, Mr Yatin Parekh
told 'The Navhind Times' this evening "We hope that good sense prevails in
the government and it agrees to the CCP demand so that we can immediately
start the city cleaning operation," he pointed out.

Is this Yatin for real?? Does he have any "good sense" in himself??
Blackmail the government to do your own job? Well I hope the government does
not give in to his demands and I hope the people of Panjim riot at the CCP
corporators.....and no marks for guessing who Mr Parekh will be calling on
to protect him at that time.

As many have said here, the train has left the station........and it ain't
going anywhere nice!!

- Bosco
anand virgincar
2008-02-25 19:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Mr Bosco D'Mello wrote : 9 months later, the Congress-led Government of Goa should realize that come what may, they will not be allowed to govern the state. There will always be some poor sob who will derail every attempt the government of the day makes that relate to governing of the state and its people. Every
politician of every party has demonstrated time and again that unless they have a 'kodel', they will not allow anybody else to sit in it peacefully. As far as our politicians are concerned, personal compulsions far outweigh the needs of the state of Goa and its people.


My comment :

If the comment above was made in reference to Goan ( or Indian )
politics in general , it may have been a reasonable assessment . In
context of the current political scenario in Goa , it displays either
of two possibilities ( and is very similar to a recent comment by
another author that all recent agitations in Goa have been fuelled
by Manohar Parrikar's ambitions ) :
i ) The author is trying to deliberately mislead readers.
OR
ii ) The author exhibits a striking lack of knowledge regarding the
ground realities in Goan politics at the moment.

I say this because :
i ) The Congress government in Goa over the last 3 odd years ( and
particularly over the last 9 months ) has defied all standards of
irresponsibility and incompetence. This government would not be
able to recognise what good governance is even if it is presented to
them on a plate ( with full trimmings for good measure ). Even the
most die hard of Congress supporters admit this.
ii ) The " poor sobs " who derail government attempts to govern
or are lusting for the " kodel " over the last 9 odd months have
again ( almost exclusively) been from the Congress government itself.
iii ) While Manohar Parrikar has ( at least on one occasion ) used
the opportunity presented by the gross indiscipline within the
Congress government to try and esablish an alternative government,
that is both his right and his duty. If he does not capitalise on such
opportunities ( particularly as the Goan people are sick to the gills
with these antics of the Congress corrupticians ) he may well be
accused of colluding with ( and adding to the numbers of the many
who are on the payroll of ) the Congress.
iv ) More devious attempts were made by the Congress to unseat
the Manohar Parrikar government than he could even dream of
undertaking . Yet , he provided the best period of governance for
Goa ( both objectively and subjectively ) since several decades.
Once again , staunch Congress fans in Goa ( and even his political
detractors , perhaps grudgingly ), admit this.


regards,
anand

( Dr Anand Virgincar )
_________________________________________________________________
Share what Santa brought you
https://www.mycooluncool.com
anand virgincar
2008-02-25 19:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Mr Bosco D'Mello wrote : 9 months later, the Congress-led Government of Goa should realize that come what may, they will not be allowed to govern the state. There will always be some poor sob who will derail every attempt the government of the day makes that relate to governing of the state and its people. Every
politician of every party has demonstrated time and again that unless they have a 'kodel', they will not allow anybody else to sit in it peacefully. As far as our politicians are concerned, personal compulsions far outweigh the needs of the state of Goa and its people.


My comment :

If the comment above was made in reference to Goan ( or Indian )
politics in general , it may have been a reasonable assessment . In
context of the current political scenario in Goa , it displays either
of two possibilities ( and is very similar to a recent comment by
another author that all recent agitations in Goa have been fuelled
by Manohar Parrikar's ambitions ) :
i ) The author is trying to deliberately mislead readers.
OR
ii ) The author exhibits a striking lack of knowledge regarding the
ground realities in Goan politics at the moment.

I say this because :
i ) The Congress government in Goa over the last 3 odd years ( and
particularly over the last 9 months ) has defied all standards of
irresponsibility and incompetence. This government would not be
able to recognise what good governance is even if it is presented to
them on a plate ( with full trimmings for good measure ). Even the
most die hard of Congress supporters admit this.
ii ) The " poor sobs " who derail government attempts to govern
or are lusting for the " kodel " over the last 9 odd months have
again ( almost exclusively) been from the Congress government itself.
iii ) While Manohar Parrikar has ( at least on one occasion ) used
the opportunity presented by the gross indiscipline within the
Congress government to try and esablish an alternative government,
that is both his right and his duty. If he does not capitalise on such
opportunities ( particularly as the Goan people are sick to the gills
with these antics of the Congress corrupticians ) he may well be
accused of colluding with ( and adding to the numbers of the many
who are on the payroll of ) the Congress.
iv ) More devious attempts were made by the Congress to unseat
the Manohar Parrikar government than he could even dream of
undertaking . Yet , he provided the best period of governance for
Goa ( both objectively and subjectively ) since several decades.
Once again , staunch Congress fans in Goa ( and even his political
detractors , perhaps grudgingly ), admit this.


regards,
anand

( Dr Anand Virgincar )
_________________________________________________________________
Share what Santa brought you
https://www.mycooluncool.com
anand virgincar
2008-02-25 19:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Mr Bosco D'Mello wrote : 9 months later, the Congress-led Government of Goa should realize that come what may, they will not be allowed to govern the state. There will always be some poor sob who will derail every attempt the government of the day makes that relate to governing of the state and its people. Every
politician of every party has demonstrated time and again that unless they have a 'kodel', they will not allow anybody else to sit in it peacefully. As far as our politicians are concerned, personal compulsions far outweigh the needs of the state of Goa and its people.


My comment :

If the comment above was made in reference to Goan ( or Indian )
politics in general , it may have been a reasonable assessment . In
context of the current political scenario in Goa , it displays either
of two possibilities ( and is very similar to a recent comment by
another author that all recent agitations in Goa have been fuelled
by Manohar Parrikar's ambitions ) :
i ) The author is trying to deliberately mislead readers.
OR
ii ) The author exhibits a striking lack of knowledge regarding the
ground realities in Goan politics at the moment.

I say this because :
i ) The Congress government in Goa over the last 3 odd years ( and
particularly over the last 9 months ) has defied all standards of
irresponsibility and incompetence. This government would not be
able to recognise what good governance is even if it is presented to
them on a plate ( with full trimmings for good measure ). Even the
most die hard of Congress supporters admit this.
ii ) The " poor sobs " who derail government attempts to govern
or are lusting for the " kodel " over the last 9 odd months have
again ( almost exclusively) been from the Congress government itself.
iii ) While Manohar Parrikar has ( at least on one occasion ) used
the opportunity presented by the gross indiscipline within the
Congress government to try and esablish an alternative government,
that is both his right and his duty. If he does not capitalise on such
opportunities ( particularly as the Goan people are sick to the gills
with these antics of the Congress corrupticians ) he may well be
accused of colluding with ( and adding to the numbers of the many
who are on the payroll of ) the Congress.
iv ) More devious attempts were made by the Congress to unseat
the Manohar Parrikar government than he could even dream of
undertaking . Yet , he provided the best period of governance for
Goa ( both objectively and subjectively ) since several decades.
Once again , staunch Congress fans in Goa ( and even his political
detractors , perhaps grudgingly ), admit this.


regards,
anand

( Dr Anand Virgincar )
_________________________________________________________________
Share what Santa brought you
https://www.mycooluncool.com
anand virgincar
2008-02-25 19:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Mr Bosco D'Mello wrote : 9 months later, the Congress-led Government of Goa should realize that come what may, they will not be allowed to govern the state. There will always be some poor sob who will derail every attempt the government of the day makes that relate to governing of the state and its people. Every
politician of every party has demonstrated time and again that unless they have a 'kodel', they will not allow anybody else to sit in it peacefully. As far as our politicians are concerned, personal compulsions far outweigh the needs of the state of Goa and its people.


My comment :

If the comment above was made in reference to Goan ( or Indian )
politics in general , it may have been a reasonable assessment . In
context of the current political scenario in Goa , it displays either
of two possibilities ( and is very similar to a recent comment by
another author that all recent agitations in Goa have been fuelled
by Manohar Parrikar's ambitions ) :
i ) The author is trying to deliberately mislead readers.
OR
ii ) The author exhibits a striking lack of knowledge regarding the
ground realities in Goan politics at the moment.

I say this because :
i ) The Congress government in Goa over the last 3 odd years ( and
particularly over the last 9 months ) has defied all standards of
irresponsibility and incompetence. This government would not be
able to recognise what good governance is even if it is presented to
them on a plate ( with full trimmings for good measure ). Even the
most die hard of Congress supporters admit this.
ii ) The " poor sobs " who derail government attempts to govern
or are lusting for the " kodel " over the last 9 odd months have
again ( almost exclusively) been from the Congress government itself.
iii ) While Manohar Parrikar has ( at least on one occasion ) used
the opportunity presented by the gross indiscipline within the
Congress government to try and esablish an alternative government,
that is both his right and his duty. If he does not capitalise on such
opportunities ( particularly as the Goan people are sick to the gills
with these antics of the Congress corrupticians ) he may well be
accused of colluding with ( and adding to the numbers of the many
who are on the payroll of ) the Congress.
iv ) More devious attempts were made by the Congress to unseat
the Manohar Parrikar government than he could even dream of
undertaking . Yet , he provided the best period of governance for
Goa ( both objectively and subjectively ) since several decades.
Once again , staunch Congress fans in Goa ( and even his political
detractors , perhaps grudgingly ), admit this.


regards,
anand

( Dr Anand Virgincar )
_________________________________________________________________
Share what Santa brought you
https://www.mycooluncool.com
anand virgincar
2008-02-25 19:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Mr Bosco D'Mello wrote : 9 months later, the Congress-led Government of Goa should realize that come what may, they will not be allowed to govern the state. There will always be some poor sob who will derail every attempt the government of the day makes that relate to governing of the state and its people. Every
politician of every party has demonstrated time and again that unless they have a 'kodel', they will not allow anybody else to sit in it peacefully. As far as our politicians are concerned, personal compulsions far outweigh the needs of the state of Goa and its people.


My comment :

If the comment above was made in reference to Goan ( or Indian )
politics in general , it may have been a reasonable assessment . In
context of the current political scenario in Goa , it displays either
of two possibilities ( and is very similar to a recent comment by
another author that all recent agitations in Goa have been fuelled
by Manohar Parrikar's ambitions ) :
i ) The author is trying to deliberately mislead readers.
OR
ii ) The author exhibits a striking lack of knowledge regarding the
ground realities in Goan politics at the moment.

I say this because :
i ) The Congress government in Goa over the last 3 odd years ( and
particularly over the last 9 months ) has defied all standards of
irresponsibility and incompetence. This government would not be
able to recognise what good governance is even if it is presented to
them on a plate ( with full trimmings for good measure ). Even the
most die hard of Congress supporters admit this.
ii ) The " poor sobs " who derail government attempts to govern
or are lusting for the " kodel " over the last 9 odd months have
again ( almost exclusively) been from the Congress government itself.
iii ) While Manohar Parrikar has ( at least on one occasion ) used
the opportunity presented by the gross indiscipline within the
Congress government to try and esablish an alternative government,
that is both his right and his duty. If he does not capitalise on such
opportunities ( particularly as the Goan people are sick to the gills
with these antics of the Congress corrupticians ) he may well be
accused of colluding with ( and adding to the numbers of the many
who are on the payroll of ) the Congress.
iv ) More devious attempts were made by the Congress to unseat
the Manohar Parrikar government than he could even dream of
undertaking . Yet , he provided the best period of governance for
Goa ( both objectively and subjectively ) since several decades.
Once again , staunch Congress fans in Goa ( and even his political
detractors , perhaps grudgingly ), admit this.


regards,
anand

( Dr Anand Virgincar )
_________________________________________________________________
Share what Santa brought you
https://www.mycooluncool.com
anand virgincar
2008-02-25 19:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Mr Bosco D'Mello wrote : 9 months later, the Congress-led Government of Goa should realize that come what may, they will not be allowed to govern the state. There will always be some poor sob who will derail every attempt the government of the day makes that relate to governing of the state and its people. Every
politician of every party has demonstrated time and again that unless they have a 'kodel', they will not allow anybody else to sit in it peacefully. As far as our politicians are concerned, personal compulsions far outweigh the needs of the state of Goa and its people.


My comment :

If the comment above was made in reference to Goan ( or Indian )
politics in general , it may have been a reasonable assessment . In
context of the current political scenario in Goa , it displays either
of two possibilities ( and is very similar to a recent comment by
another author that all recent agitations in Goa have been fuelled
by Manohar Parrikar's ambitions ) :
i ) The author is trying to deliberately mislead readers.
OR
ii ) The author exhibits a striking lack of knowledge regarding the
ground realities in Goan politics at the moment.

I say this because :
i ) The Congress government in Goa over the last 3 odd years ( and
particularly over the last 9 months ) has defied all standards of
irresponsibility and incompetence. This government would not be
able to recognise what good governance is even if it is presented to
them on a plate ( with full trimmings for good measure ). Even the
most die hard of Congress supporters admit this.
ii ) The " poor sobs " who derail government attempts to govern
or are lusting for the " kodel " over the last 9 odd months have
again ( almost exclusively) been from the Congress government itself.
iii ) While Manohar Parrikar has ( at least on one occasion ) used
the opportunity presented by the gross indiscipline within the
Congress government to try and esablish an alternative government,
that is both his right and his duty. If he does not capitalise on such
opportunities ( particularly as the Goan people are sick to the gills
with these antics of the Congress corrupticians ) he may well be
accused of colluding with ( and adding to the numbers of the many
who are on the payroll of ) the Congress.
iv ) More devious attempts were made by the Congress to unseat
the Manohar Parrikar government than he could even dream of
undertaking . Yet , he provided the best period of governance for
Goa ( both objectively and subjectively ) since several decades.
Once again , staunch Congress fans in Goa ( and even his political
detractors , perhaps grudgingly ), admit this.


regards,
anand

( Dr Anand Virgincar )
_________________________________________________________________
Share what Santa brought you
https://www.mycooluncool.com
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-25 16:21:24 UTC
Permalink
I have several problems with this prelude to a
t?te???t?te from Rajan, as with some of his other
logorrheic missives.

I do not think an interrogation by Dr. Parrikar is
more credible than a certificate from India experts
from anywhere. While a temperate 3-month travelogue
has value beyond its wonderful visual appeal, a serial
xenophobic rant of any duration is counterproductive.
I know of no problem that has been solved by breeding
contempt against underprivileged soft targets. I am
yet to see any level-headed cogent argument for the
proposition that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause
of the destruction of Goa.

By all accounts, both proximal and distal, the
mutilation of the Goan landscape is driven by greed,
particularly of the wealthy and the powerful in the
heart of Goa, and also by an enduring insensitivity of
the native Goan populace to institutionalized
corruption.

Cheers,

Santosh
Awhile back, you had offered gratuitous advice to
someone on Goanet, asking him to emulate Vivian
D'Souza by spending extended time in Goa. I now
invite you to ingest your own medicine. No need
to spend a year a la Vivian-bab. 2 or 3 months will
suffice. I can give you pointers - if you need them
- on
where to go and where to look. Once you have
assessed
how the land lies and digested the situation, you
and I
can get together to discuss the matter of my
caricatures
of migrants/bhaile. You can then evaluate my
portrayal,
whether it is real or a figment of my imagination.
A
summary of our t?te???t?te can then be posted here
on Goanet.
I urge you to acquire ground level experience with
the
current migrant situation in Goa, both at the top
and
the bottom end. It will then become that much
harder
for you to say silly things in public. Either that
or you c
an continue dripping woolly-headed treacle from your
cushy pad 12,000 miles away.
...........................................
Based on my experience with the so-called "India
experts"
in America and Europe, I would not rush to award Dr.
Newman
so blanket a certificate. It is true that Dr.
Newman will know
more about Goan culture than Dr. Helekar (per
Helekar-bab's
own implicit admission) but I can confirm only that
much
and no more. Inorder to correctly assess Dr.
Newman's
knowledge about matters Goan, I will have to
interrogate
him myself.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-26 04:07:36 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
I have several problems with this prelude to a
t?te???t?te from Rajan, as with some of his other
logorrheic missives.
I do not think an interrogation by Dr. Parrikar is
more credible than a certificate from India experts
from anywhere.
That bit was a minor aside in my previous rejoinder
yet Dr. Helekar seems to think it major enough to
advance it to the top of his response. Be that as it
may, opinions and hypotheses must be (preferably)
based on available evidence, which is the foundation
of the scientific method. For an accurate reckoning
of Dr. Newman's knowledge of Goa, I would need to
interrogate him. Past experience has taught me not
to rely on a man's writings alone in the fields of
cultural and social anthropology. Dr. Helekar
appears to subscribe to a different technique,
one relying on hearsay, the number of believers,
reputation etc. At any rate, if Newman floats
Helekar's boat, far be it from me to try and rock it.
Post by Santosh Helekar
While a temperate 3-month travelogue
has value beyond its wonderful visual appeal, a serial
xenophobic rant of any duration is counterproductive.
I know of no problem that has been solved by breeding
contempt against underprivileged soft targets. I am
yet to see any level-headed cogent argument for the
proposition that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause
of the destruction of Goa.
Again, Dr. Helekar bobs and weaves, and misrepresents
the problem. Nobody I know to be sensible has claimed
that bhaile and ghatis are the "root cause" of the
destruction of Goa (if there is a "root cause" at all).
I have made the case several times here that they
represent ONE problem, and in my view, a major one
now. Dr. Helekar can refute or confirm my assessment,
but only if he would first deign to step into the field
laboratory.

For once he should ingest the medicine he has been
administering to others: come and spend time here in
the theatre, see it for yourself, then when you have had
sufficient brush with the reality of Goa today, go ahead
and form your opinion. If you choose to not follow up
on this suggestion, I will understand, and I say that
in all seriousness. We all have constraints - family,
career, job, circumstances etc etc.

As things stand, my "xenophobic rant" has one virtue
over Dr. Helekar's pious cant: it comes out of experience
in the field. Dr. Helekar, on the other hand, seems to
be no more than a long-distance opinionista.
Post by Santosh Helekar
By all accounts, both proximal and distal, the
mutilation of the Goan landscape is driven by greed,
particularly of the wealthy and the powerful in the
heart of Goa, and also by an enduring insensitivity of
the native Goan populace to institutionalized
corruption.
Destruction of landscape is ONE of the major problems
afflicting Goa. There are several others, many of them
interlinked. The platitudes you write above are all too
well known. They add nothing to what we already know.
Insight into the what, why, and, how-can-we-fix-this-
-mess? takes a great deal more than facile pecks at
the keyboard.

Warm regards,


r




____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-28 06:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Parrikar has compounded his problems. His
insinuation of the scientific method in the task of
judging Robert Newman's credentials is absurd. To make
matters worse he conflates the scientific method with
his idiosyncratic fixation on a personal
interrogation. It is well known that in science, or
for that matter, in any other field, including social
and cultural anthropology, the competence of a scholar
is judged by a critical reading of his writings, and
on how well he is regarded and cited by his peers.
This judgment does not hang on the availability of a
report of a one-on-one interrogation administered by
some finicky lay person.

On the issue of Goa, at first Dr. Parrikar appears to
be backtracking from his earlier stance by denying
that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause of Goa's
problems, even though decrying them has been the
centerpiece of his sabbatical campaign in Goa. But
then he clarifies that they are merely one major
problem. The trouble with this, however, is that, once
again, he fails to explain exactly what this problem
is, let alone provide a coherent rationale for it.

Finally, speaking of platitudes, he does not realize
that the worst of these banalities involve playing the
blame game - the relentless reprobation of bhaile,
ghanti and the rest of India for no substantive
reason, which has been going on in Goa since the 60's,
and on Goanet, since its inception. Dr. Parrikar did
not invent these epithets, nor this trite excuse, on
his ongoing epiphanic extended vacation in Goa.

I don't have to go on a prolonged fact-finding
furlough to Goa, or engage in a protracted
interrogathon of an indigene on Goan soil, to know
that there is nothing original, insightful or
sagacious about blaming others for our failings.

Cheers,

Santosh
Be that as it may, opinions and hypotheses must be
(preferably) based on available evidence, which is
the >foundation of the scientific method. For an
accurate >reckoning of Dr. Newman's knowledge of Goa,
I would >need to interrogate him. Past experience has
taught >me not
to rely on a man's writings alone in the fields of
cultural and social anthropology. Dr. Helekar
appears to subscribe to a different technique,
one relying on hearsay, the number of believers,
reputation etc.
....................................
I have made the case several times here that they
represent ONE problem, and in my view, a major one
now. Dr. Helekar can refute or confirm my
assessment,
but only if he would first deign to step into the
field
laboratory.
....................................
As things stand, my "xenophobic rant" has one virtue
over Dr. Helekar's pious cant: it comes out of
experience
in the field. Dr. Helekar, on the other hand, seems
to
be no more than a long-distance opinionista.
........................
The platitudes you write above are all
too
well known. They add nothing to what we already
know.
Insight into the what, why, and,
how-can-we-fix-this-
-mess? takes a great deal more than facile pecks at
the keyboard.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-28 15:08:52 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
On the issue of Goa, at first Dr. Parrikar appears to
be backtracking from his earlier stance by denying
that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause of Goa's
problems, even though decrying them has been the
centerpiece of his sabbatical campaign in Goa. But
then he clarifies that they are merely one major
problem.
There is not even a sliver of backtracking here.
Dr. Helekar could have avoided this embarrassing
boo-boo and spared us the spectacle of his being hoist
by his own petard if only he had a modicum of respect
for the rudiments of the scientific method he has been
touting on this forum. A minor dig into the Goanet
archives would have disabused him of his serious
misperceptions.

Reference #1:
Sept 18, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-September/062284.html
<quote>
"The harebrained tourism policy, the real estate mafia,
the builders, our political leaders, the curse of uncultured
Dilliwallahs seeking an old Portuguese house, the ridiculously
priced apartments targeted at bhailes, the Russian mafia,
drug running along the coastal belt, rave parties, the ghati
menace - all these are interlinked, symbiotic cancers currently
eating away at Goa's soul. For purposes of discussion and
strategy on how to combat the scourge, we have to break
down the problem into smaller manageable portions. Here
I have addressed the ghati menace but this is really a part
of a bigger affliction."
<unquote>

Reference #2:
Dec 14, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-December/066365.html
<quote>
"Outsiders are not the ONLY problem, but they are A problem,
and a major one at that."
<unquote>


Reference #3:
Jan 6, 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-January/067465.html
<quote>
"It has never been anybody's case that the migrants
are the ONLY major problem currently wracking Goa,
as claimed by the Marxist gits. The alarming levels of
migrant presence are A (as in "one") major problem."
<unquote>


Warm regards,


r




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Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-28 16:05:43 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
Dr. Parrikar has compounded his problems. His
insinuation of the scientific method in the task of
judging Robert Newman's credentials is absurd. To make
matters worse he conflates the scientific method with
his idiosyncratic fixation on a personal
interrogation. It is well known that in science, or
for that matter, in any other field, including social
and cultural anthropology, the competence of a scholar
is judged by a critical reading of his writings, and
on how well he is regarded and cited by his peers.
This judgment does not hang on the availability of a
report of a one-on-one interrogation administered by
some finicky lay person.
The holes in Dr. Helekar's thinking above are larger
than his zipcode. We were not disputing Dr. Newman's
competence. Dr. Helekar has moved the goalpost now
to suit himself. We were disputing Dr. Helekar's gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan. The surest
way to validate Dr. Helekar's claim is a direct interrogation
of Dr. Newman. That is why a PhD candidate is called
upon to make an oral defense regardless of the number
of peer-reviewed papers, scholarly articles, and books
he may have to his credit. Because writing is only
suggestive, not conclusive. Only a direct oral
interrogation can definitively establish the depth - or
the lack of it - of a man's knowledge of a subject area.

Now then, with my background and expertise, I can
evaluate Dr. Newman's fitness in the field of Goan
music, an important element of culture. To be more
specific, the non-Western, non-Christian elements
of Goan music. For the other major areas of culture,
we can draw on Goan experts from those departments
to take stock of Dr. Newman.

But all this is beside the point. Dr. Helekar was talking
through his hat with that remark about Dr. Newman's
preeminence in matters about Goan culture. Nobody
who has the slightest idea of what the term "culture"
encompasses would have made so silly a remark.

Warm regards,


r





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Santosh Helekar
2008-02-29 16:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Parrikar and his followers (or Drs. Parrikars) are
contricting their goal from Goan culture in general
to non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music,
just to suit their argument. Their claim that
scholarly writing is merely suggestive of knowledge is
bogus. This may be true for platitudes, rants and
Goanet posts, but peer-reviewed writings resulting
from original research, as in the case of Robert
Newman, speaks to his knowledge and expertise in that
field.

Now regarding Dr. Parrikar's claim of being an expert
in Goan music, by his own temperamental criteria, how
can we be sure he is not talking through his hat? Who
has interrogated him on this front? Which Ph.D.
committee has certified him in the specific area of
non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music?

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
The holes in Dr. Helekar's thinking above are larger
than his zipcode. We were not disputing Dr.
Newman's
competence. Dr. Helekar has moved the goalpost now
to suit himself. We were disputing Dr. Helekar's
gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan. The surest
way to validate Dr. Helekar's claim is a direct
interrogation
of Dr. Newman. That is why a PhD candidate is
called
upon to make an oral defense regardless of the
number
of peer-reviewed papers, scholarly articles, and
books
he may have to his credit. Because writing is only
suggestive, not conclusive. Only a direct oral
interrogation can definitively establish the depth -
or
the lack of it - of a man's knowledge of a subject
area.
Now then, with my background and expertise, I can
evaluate Dr. Newman's fitness in the field of Goan
music, an important element of culture. To be more
specific, the non-Western, non-Christian elements
of Goan music. For the other major areas of
culture,
we can draw on Goan experts from those departments
to take stock of Dr. Newman.
But all this is beside the point. Dr. Helekar was
talking
through his hat with that remark about Dr. Newman's
preeminence in matters about Goan culture. Nobody
who has the slightest idea of what the term
"culture"
encompasses would have made so silly a remark.
anand virgincar
2008-03-01 07:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Bab Santosh Helekar said :
Dr. Parrikar and his followers (or Drs. Parrikars) are contricting their goal from Goan culture in general to non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music, just to suit their argument.

My comments :

The comment above is totally out of context to what
Bab Rajan had said. I would be grateful to Bab Santosh
if he does not give a communal slant to every statement
as is the way of the communal harmony specialists in
Goa and on goanet.

Rajan stated that he was an expert on the aspects of
music stated above. I myself have a considerable
personal interest in similar music and have not seen as
good an analysis on this topic as has been made by Rajan
on his website. Many I know with much superior knowledge
of this field than myself agree wholeheartedly.

On the original question about the uncontrolled migration
into Goa , my inherent nature would ordinarily dictate that
I support Bab Santosh's humanitarian and idealistic views.
However, the ground situation in Goa compels me to fully
endorse Bab Rajan's much more realistic approach ( and
for once , this has absolutely nothing to do with my
political leanings )
With Mr S Helekar's scientific approach to all matters , it
should not be difficult to decipher that if we do not act
soon , the recent and future arrivals to Goa are bound to
have as much if not greater problems than the Niz goenkars.

luv and regards,
anand

( Dr Anand Virgincar )
_________________________________________________________________
Who's friends with who and co-starred in what?
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/celebrityseparation.shtml
anand virgincar
2008-03-01 07:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Bab Santosh Helekar said :
Dr. Parrikar and his followers (or Drs. Parrikars) are contricting their goal from Goan culture in general to non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music, just to suit their argument.

My comments :

The comment above is totally out of context to what
Bab Rajan had said. I would be grateful to Bab Santosh
if he does not give a communal slant to every statement
as is the way of the communal harmony specialists in
Goa and on goanet.

Rajan stated that he was an expert on the aspects of
music stated above. I myself have a considerable
personal interest in similar music and have not seen as
good an analysis on this topic as has been made by Rajan
on his website. Many I know with much superior knowledge
of this field than myself agree wholeheartedly.

On the original question about the uncontrolled migration
into Goa , my inherent nature would ordinarily dictate that
I support Bab Santosh's humanitarian and idealistic views.
However, the ground situation in Goa compels me to fully
endorse Bab Rajan's much more realistic approach ( and
for once , this has absolutely nothing to do with my
political leanings )
With Mr S Helekar's scientific approach to all matters , it
should not be difficult to decipher that if we do not act
soon , the recent and future arrivals to Goa are bound to
have as much if not greater problems than the Niz goenkars.

luv and regards,
anand

( Dr Anand Virgincar )
_________________________________________________________________
Who's friends with who and co-starred in what?
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/celebrityseparation.shtml
anand virgincar
2008-03-01 07:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Bab Santosh Helekar said :
Dr. Parrikar and his followers (or Drs. Parrikars) are contricting their goal from Goan culture in general to non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music, just to suit their argument.

My comments :

The comment above is totally out of context to what
Bab Rajan had said. I would be grateful to Bab Santosh
if he does not give a communal slant to every statement
as is the way of the communal harmony specialists in
Goa and on goanet.

Rajan stated that he was an expert on the aspects of
music stated above. I myself have a considerable
personal interest in similar music and have not seen as
good an analysis on this topic as has been made by Rajan
on his website. Many I know with much superior knowledge
of this field than myself agree wholeheartedly.

On the original question about the uncontrolled migration
into Goa , my inherent nature would ordinarily dictate that
I support Bab Santosh's humanitarian and idealistic views.
However, the ground situation in Goa compels me to fully
endorse Bab Rajan's much more realistic approach ( and
for once , this has absolutely nothing to do with my
political leanings )
With Mr S Helekar's scientific approach to all matters , it
should not be difficult to decipher that if we do not act
soon , the recent and future arrivals to Goa are bound to
have as much if not greater problems than the Niz goenkars.

luv and regards,
anand

( Dr Anand Virgincar )
_________________________________________________________________
Who's friends with who and co-starred in what?
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/celebrityseparation.shtml
anand virgincar
2008-03-01 07:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Bab Santosh Helekar said :
Dr. Parrikar and his followers (or Drs. Parrikars) are contricting their goal from Goan culture in general to non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music, just to suit their argument.

My comments :

The comment above is totally out of context to what
Bab Rajan had said. I would be grateful to Bab Santosh
if he does not give a communal slant to every statement
as is the way of the communal harmony specialists in
Goa and on goanet.

Rajan stated that he was an expert on the aspects of
music stated above. I myself have a considerable
personal interest in similar music and have not seen as
good an analysis on this topic as has been made by Rajan
on his website. Many I know with much superior knowledge
of this field than myself agree wholeheartedly.

On the original question about the uncontrolled migration
into Goa , my inherent nature would ordinarily dictate that
I support Bab Santosh's humanitarian and idealistic views.
However, the ground situation in Goa compels me to fully
endorse Bab Rajan's much more realistic approach ( and
for once , this has absolutely nothing to do with my
political leanings )
With Mr S Helekar's scientific approach to all matters , it
should not be difficult to decipher that if we do not act
soon , the recent and future arrivals to Goa are bound to
have as much if not greater problems than the Niz goenkars.

luv and regards,
anand

( Dr Anand Virgincar )
_________________________________________________________________
Who's friends with who and co-starred in what?
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/celebrityseparation.shtml
anand virgincar
2008-03-01 07:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Bab Santosh Helekar said :
Dr. Parrikar and his followers (or Drs. Parrikars) are contricting their goal from Goan culture in general to non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music, just to suit their argument.

My comments :

The comment above is totally out of context to what
Bab Rajan had said. I would be grateful to Bab Santosh
if he does not give a communal slant to every statement
as is the way of the communal harmony specialists in
Goa and on goanet.

Rajan stated that he was an expert on the aspects of
music stated above. I myself have a considerable
personal interest in similar music and have not seen as
good an analysis on this topic as has been made by Rajan
on his website. Many I know with much superior knowledge
of this field than myself agree wholeheartedly.

On the original question about the uncontrolled migration
into Goa , my inherent nature would ordinarily dictate that
I support Bab Santosh's humanitarian and idealistic views.
However, the ground situation in Goa compels me to fully
endorse Bab Rajan's much more realistic approach ( and
for once , this has absolutely nothing to do with my
political leanings )
With Mr S Helekar's scientific approach to all matters , it
should not be difficult to decipher that if we do not act
soon , the recent and future arrivals to Goa are bound to
have as much if not greater problems than the Niz goenkars.

luv and regards,
anand

( Dr Anand Virgincar )
_________________________________________________________________
Who's friends with who and co-starred in what?
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/celebrityseparation.shtml
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-29 22:24:29 UTC
Permalink
In his latest installment Dr. Parrikar confuses the
scientific method with the trivial act of digging
through the Goanet archives.

Reading what he has dug out of the archives again only
confirms my earlier suspicion that his statements on
what he refers to as the ghanti affliction are far
from being coherent, thoughtful and level-headed.

Here are some examples of his wildly inconsistent and
slapdash claims:

1. "Every piece of unthinking rubbish, every concrete
atrocity (in Goa) is an Indian contribution"
2. "Nobody I know to be sensible has claimed that
bhaile and ghatis are the "root cause" of the
destruction of Goa"
3. "the great virtue of Goa (is) in being not-India?
4. "Here I have addressed the ghati menace but this is
really a part of a bigger affliction."
5. "A sea of ghatis and migrants have encroached on
our land, have created civic, social, and law-&-order
issues. The rich Indians have descended on Goa with
their own brand of poison. The tide shows no signs of
abating."
6. "It has never been anybody's case that the migrants
are the ONLY major problem currently wracking Goa, as
claimed by the Marxist gits."
7. "You only have to look at the stinking dumpsters
EVERY Indian city and town has turned into. Do we
want Goa, the final bastion of civilized living in
India, to be conjoined to an identical fate?"
8. "Outsiders are not the ONLY problem, but they are A
problem, and a major one at that."

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
There is not even a sliver of backtracking here.
Dr. Helekar could have avoided this embarrassing
boo-boo and spared us the spectacle of his being
hoist
by his own petard if only he had a modicum of
respect
for the rudiments of the scientific method he has
been
touting on this forum. A minor dig into the Goanet
archives would have disabused him of his serious
misperceptions.
Sept 18, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-September/062284.html
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
.............................................
Dec 14, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-December/066365.html
...............................................
Jan 6, 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-January/067465.html
Venantius Pinto
2008-02-29 18:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Dear Rajan,
I am (after much thought) surprised that you took Santosh Helekar's
statement clinically. In a sense, that you took it to heart. There is
no doubt that people, and we Goans respect you, but I also feel that
one could ask direct questions. "Santosh-bab, do you feel that Dr.
Newman really understands our music (or something to that effect)."
Anyway, it appears that it would have been acceptable had Helekar said
that, Dr. Newman knows more about Goa than "most" Goans, instead of
knowing more than any Goan. In the end the record will speak for
itself.

Man, you guys individually have more brainpower than most people on
this sorry earth, including in Goa. This reminds me of an interesting
Japanese proverb, Sannin yoreba Monju no chie (Three people together
have the wisdom of a Buddha), or the tepid English version, Two heads
are better than one. Monju is the 'saint' of wisdom in Buddhism.

venantius
From: "Rajan P. Parrikar" <parrikar at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan archetypes, stereotypes and caricatures
To Goanet -
We were disputing Dr. Helekar's gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan.
Santosh Helekar
2008-03-01 06:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Venantius Pinto
Anyway, it appears that it would have been
acceptable had Helekar said that, Dr. Newman knows
more about Goa than "most" Goans, instead of
knowing more than any Goan. In the end the record
will speak for itself.
Hi Venantius,

You are being misled about what I said. I submit to
you that my assertion in this regard would be
acceptable without any change. Here is my quote for
your information:

"I heard recently that even the extremely bhailo
Robert Newman, who arguably knows more about Goan
culture than any other contemporary bhitol'lo or
bhitol'lem, was not
spared in this regard."

I am sure you will note the words "arguably" and
"contemporary", and the sense in which the words
"bhitol'lo" and "bhitol'lem" are used.

Cheers,

Santosh
Cecil Pinto
2008-02-22 10:47:14 UTC
Permalink
Goan archetypes, stereotypes and caricatures
They don't get it, they never will.
By Cecil Pinto

Last week NDTV featured an interesting documentary "Where's Sandra?"
This 18 minute film, I quote, 'takes a playful look at the figure of
Sandra from Bandra - part covetous fantasy of the racy Christian girl
from Bombay who works as a secretary, wears a dress and likes to
dance; part condescending stereotype of a dowdy, religious girl from a
minority community.'

One of Mario Miranda's endearing cartoon characters is the sexy
secretary Miss Fonseca. Mario has also caricatured so many Goan
archetypes ? the bhatkar (landlord), the gossipy elderly spinster, the
priest, the fisherwoman, the Hindu gentleman, the drunk etc etc.

Alex Fernandes, Goa's specialist portrait photographer, recently he
had an exhibition of his Tiatriste series. Many tiatristes have taken
archetypical characters and fleshed them out. Some of these existed,
some are creations ? all are caricatures. Succorine's colourfully
clothed buxom fisherwoman, with flowers in her hair and a lot of gold
chains and bangles, is very real. But how real is Cyriaco Dias'
bhatkar? When did you last see a Goan landlord smoking a pipe, wearing
suspenders, and wearing a silk house coat at home? The comedian cook
(cuzinher), the evil step-mother, the witty village belle? Do such
people exist or are they creations of the tiatr genre?

When this writer (always wanted to say that - 'this writer' has such a
formal pompous feel to it!) pokes fun at the Gulfee wife, the
Moidekar, the Toronto Goan on holiday, or the belligerent and greedy
South Goan taxi driver, we don't take it to heart but accept it in the
spirit of entertainment. We are even willing to suspend disbelief
despite gross exaggeration. Similarly we are ever forgiving of Mario
Miranda and the tiatristes. Caricatures are never taken at face value
? when the caricaturist is one of us. But if, God forbid, an
'outsider' pokes fun at our foibles we are immediately up in arms.

In a Bollywood movie should a Goan character be portrayed as a drunk,
or a Catholic girl be shown as being promiscuous, the entire moral
brigade is up in arms. Mona, Robert, Julie, Lily, Anthony, Rosy,
Peter, Maria, Michael? the daru drinkers, vamps, barmaids, cabaret
dancers, bandleaders, henchmen are the characters that get attention
and cause offense. Nobody mentions the hundreds of times Goans and
Christians are portrayed in a non-stereotypical manner. Go watch 'Kal
Ho Na Ho' or 'Black' for example.

Mario Cabral e Sa often writes about the shenanigans of the Goan
mistresses during the Portuguese era. Historian Fatima Gracias
recently re-released book on 'Women in Goa' has reams of interesting
stuff. For example at the end of the sixteenth century, (Page 4) "Life
in the city of Goa was ceaseless rounds of amorous assignments and
sexual delights?". "Albuquerque also complained that Portuguese men
carried women along with them out of Goa or to the ships for casual
sex?" As recent as 1931 the break up of registered prostitutes in Goa
was about 1000 (with Ponda topping the list at 277, Bardez-186,
Salcete-172, Ilhas-119). In 1936 the figures rose considerably
(Hindu-1784, Christian-141, Muslims-9).

Fatima's fascinating book goes on to examine the different categories
of dancing girls (kalavantam / bailaderias) from pre-pubescent girls
to widows, but I am getting distracted. We can accept all this from
Fatima or Mario because they are our fellow Goans. As also the
statistic from me that there are more bars per capita in Goa than in
any state/country in the whole of Asia, Africa or South America.

But when the 16th century Dutch traveller John Huyghen Van Linschoten
writes that "married ladies drugged their husband with datura so they
could have freedom with their lovers", we find this unbelievable. Or
take the 19th century explorer and adventurer Richard Burton who
claims that there were 20 establishments in Shiroda each having 50-60
dancing girls. We can't take this from an outsider. It is documented
also how Goan dancing girls migrated to Bombay and were highly desired
there as prostitutes and mistresses. Depending on who is doing the
documentation, and the narration, we will either believe or rubbish
this.

This acceptance of stereotyping or observations by insiders is true of
every community. On once social occasion I happened to be in the
company of gay friends who were relating the most disgustingly
delicious gay jokes. In a spirited fashion I cracked a vulgar gay joke
myself. Conversation stopped and I was quite the social outcast till
lots more alcohol had been imbibed. The point being it is ok for us to
make fun of ourselves, but if you are an outsider you don't have that
privilege.

The token Muslim in many Hindi movies always wears a sherwani, sports
a long beard and is a poet of sorts ? or in recent times is a Pakistan
trained militant. The Tamilian keeps repeating a thickly accented
"ayyo amma", and the Parsi gentleman is eccentric with an old world
charm. Not vastly different from our tiatr stereotypes.

We Goans forward Sardaji jokes by the dozen. We stereotype them as dim
witted and loud mouthed. Does that make our Prime Minister Manmohan
Singh any less respected an economist and statesman? Do you think
Sardajis care a whit? They know who they are. Why then do we get our
collective imported panties in a knot when a Goan is stereotyped?

Bollywood is about formulae and what works is repeated endlessly.
Brothers separated at birth, romance between people of incompatible
religion/society, revenge for honour, unrealistic song and dance
routines and yes, stereotyped communities. Tiatrs too have their
formulae. Reality is suspended in both.

Let's not shout "Objection mi Lord!" every time a Goan stereotype is
caricatured by outsiders. Let's revel in the thought that we as a
people live life abundantly and that's something the outsiders can
never fathom. Our men are not drunks, our women are not easy. It's
just that we Goans, wherever we live, cultivate a certain lifestyle
that others aspire for but can never quite acquire. Let them call us
'sussegad' without quite understanding the nuances of the word. We
will just wink at each other in our laidback way and understand why
they are envious - of something they can never quite comprehend,
imbibe or achieve.




----------
The column above appeared in the Gomantak Times dated 21st ebruary 2008
=====
Mervyn Lobo
2008-02-22 15:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cecil Pinto
We Goans forward Sardaji jokes by the dozen. We stereotype them as dim
witted and loud mouthed. Does that make our Prime Minister Manmohan
Singh any less respected an economist and statesman?
Thank you for this, Cecil.
I read somewhere that a politician makes decisions with winning the next elections as his main objective. A statesman makes decisions with the objective of providing prosperity for the next generation.
Mervyn3.0




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Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-23 07:09:36 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -

I thought this was a poorly written, incoherent piece.
Cecil Pinto has written much better columns before.

The phenomenon of the privileges an insider enjoys
is well-known and universally accepted. For instance,
blacks in America often refer to one another as "Hey
you nigga bradah." But you, a non-black, would do
well to abstain from calling a black man "nigger." Even
in your own family, there are terms of endearment or
derision you may employ on some member that you
would take great offense if uttered by an outsider,
however well-meaning.

On the subject of caricature - it is a healthy habit
to poke fun at oneself now and then, and to not
be too sensitive to every little gob of criticism or
caricature. The outsider is allowed the business of
caricature but the insider's reaction may depend on
the specific circumstance. Frequency, content, and
intent can help determine if it is good-natured ribbing,
honest criticism, or a snide putdown.

But Cecil has missed out on a critical observation
concerning the caricature department and Goa. It
is that the line between the caricatures of Goa and
reality has been blurred beyond repair. To non-Goans,
the caricature itself is the reality of Goa. Look at the
way we Goans are portrayed - as insignificant, nameless,
shadowy figures, always hovering in the background,
(that Remo and Hema are thrown in now and then does
not alter this picture).

Or consider the silly images of Goa one encounters in
articles, magazines, books etc. For this state of affairs,
we have ourselves to blame. True, we are too small a
community that always runs the risk of a wipeout in the
Indian swamp. But we have let ourselves, our land,
our religious and cultural traditions be defined by
others and wholly within the framework of tourism.
Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip.

We have ceded ground by not asserting ourselves
appropriately and widely enough. Many Goans
themselves remain ignorant of the wealth in our
midst. It is absurd that today the "go to" people on
matters Goa and Goan are bhaile who think they know
it all after a few years of domicile here.

In the latest issue of Parmal (Goa Heritage Action Group's
magazine) is reproduced an essay by Robert Newman (*).
Dr. Newman makes very good observations on this
issue of Goa's caricature. The essay has been posted here
earlier. See -

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-news-goanet.org/2007-May/002055.html


(*) Sometime in the 1970s, St Inez - then a quiet, beautiful
village of orchards and fields - was agog at the sight of
this unsual couple - a saree-clad Indian lady and a white
man - strolling its streets. I remember them well (they had
rented an apartment from our family friends). It was
Professor Newman and his wife Sudha. A couple of years
ago, through Frederick Noronha as the intermediary, I had
occasion after almost 30 years to establish contact with him.

Warm regards,


r




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Gilbert Lawrence
2008-02-23 18:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Rajan's post below provides interesting insights into Goans. My response is to his post; and not to the original thread. While Parrikar's response was revealing, a few responses on this thread caricatured the caricature.:=)).

Here are a few thoughts to Rajan's wise commentary. I have selected four pertinent points which are mentioned below:

1. The "caricature itself is the reality of Goa" is not by non-Goans. That "reality" is often held by Goans themselves. Most Goans, and the many posts seen on this web site, present Goa as a caricature. Few know the specifics of what Goa and Goans stand for. For many Diaspora Goans, the native language that is a common bond, in most ethnic groups, is foreign. Goans are loath to concede the reality of progress and fearful about counting our blessings. Yes, there is the wearying intransigence of the behavior of the politicians with repeated elections or threats there off.

2. The above brings me to the second point. The caricature is not for tourism. It is indigenous, because of a lack of knowledge of Goa by Goans. "Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip" happens because most Goans do not know "Goa's fantastic heritage". And the many who quote the heritage, only do so to demagogue it. Hence no surprise, the heritage will look "like a comic strip". So let's not blame the "bhaile" for our shortcomings.

3. Rajan's third point below reinforces the above. We "ceded ground by not asserting ourselves appropriately and widely enough". This is because most of those who occupy the "ground" are Goans, who take pride in being "anti-Goan" on any-and-all issues. Being articulate by being "anti-", with no constructive solutions and comments, leads us 'spinning our wheels'. This occurs on many topics pertaining to Goa. The most recent ones were about caste and religion. The protagonist on 'widespread practice of casteism' could produce no "casteism data" when he maligned Goa's institutions. And his sources / lurkers could not / did not produce any posts (evidence) on this web site, even after he "offered to work on their English" in their posts. Hence there was little factual support to the never-ending discussion of Goa's casteism practices. This while the protagonist repeatedly displayed (as I showed) his own casteist writings and attitudes, including threatening us with his academic IPs (international papers).

4. The "go to" people are the bhaile, to get a feeling if atleast an outsider can make sense of Goan attitudes. As Rajan suggests, the bhaile too are confused. This was best reflected by Nehru's well known statements, when he described Goan attitudes.

Kind Regards, GL

--------------- Rajan P. Parrikar

the line between the caricatures of Goa and reality has been blurred beyond repair. To non-Goans, the caricature itself is the reality of Goa.

But we have let ourselves, our land, our religious and cultural traditions be defined by others and wholly within the framework of tourism. Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip.

We have ceded ground by not asserting ourselves appropriately and widely enough. Many Goans themselves remain ignorant of the wealth in our midst.

It is absurd that today the "go to" people on matters Goa and Goan are bhaile who think they know it all after a few years of domicile here.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-24 08:15:35 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet-
It is true that to free ourselves from the well-worn
caricatures created by "bhaile" from the "Indian
swamp" we have to educate ourselves about our
indigenous culture, which stretches over three
millennia.
My goal is more modest. I would like Goans to first
learn about their more recent past. Say, from the 10th C
onwards to the present will do.
The irony is that in doing so we will find
out how deeply moored we are in the Indian swamp, and
Why is this ironical? This is known to even women
and children. It is nobody's contention that we have
no links with the greater Indian ethos. You seem to be
tilting at windmills here.
We will also find out how the settlements of the
past became the orchards and fields of today, and vice
versa.
We already know that. You have missed the essential
point by a couple of light years. In much of the imperial
or colonial past, one had no control over the (usually)
violent takeover of territory and peoples. Today we have
a degree of control and say in how we wish to run our
land and our lives. The question then becomes: are the
changes taking place under our nose to our greater
good or to our detriment? I have already given my
answers to this and related questions. As evidence in
support of my position, I have pointed to India's
spectacularly dismal record in the past 50 years of
turning everything good to garbage.
The greatest irony of all, however, is that the
caricatured bhitol'le of today love to concoct
burlesque portraits of the bhaile themselves.
You must be fond of the word "irony." The migrant
situation is far too grave for these useless bouts of
back-and-forth logomachy.

Awhile back, you had offered gratuitous advice to
someone on Goanet, asking him to emulate Vivian
D'Souza by spending extended time in Goa. I now
invite you to ingest your own medicine. No need
to spend a year a la Vivian-bab. 2 or 3 months will
suffice. I can give you pointers - if you need them - on
where to go and where to look. Once you have assessed
how the land lies and digested the situation, you and I
can get together to discuss the matter of my caricatures
of migrants/bhaile. You can then evaluate my portrayal,
whether it is real or a figment of my imagination. A
summary of our t?te???t?te can then be posted here
on Goanet.

I urge you to acquire ground level experience with the
current migrant situation in Goa, both at the top and
the bottom end. It will then become that much harder
for you to say silly things in public. Either that or you c
an continue dripping woolly-headed treacle from your
cushy pad 12,000 miles away.
I heard recently that even the extremely bhailo Robert Newman,
who arguably knows more about Goan culture than any
other contemporary bhitol'lo or bhitol'lem, was not
spared in this regard.
Based on my experience with the so-called "India experts"
in America and Europe, I would not rush to award Dr. Newman
so blanket a certificate. It is true that Dr. Newman will know
more about Goan culture than Dr. Helekar (per Helekar-bab's
own implicit admission) but I can confirm only that much
and no more. Inorder to correctly assess Dr. Newman's
knowledge about matters Goan, I will have to interrogate
him myself.

Warm regards,


r





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anil desai
2008-02-24 17:21:49 UTC
Permalink
I read about this in today's Goan papers as well. Can some one on the ground
please inform goanetters whether the stench is emanating just from the
uncollected garbage or whether the decaying congress administration is
contributing to it too?
Dr Anil Desai
Bosco D'Mello
2008-02-25 03:16:17 UTC
Permalink
<Don't understand why the Mayor got involved or what business he had at the
police station on that fateful night?>

RESPONSE: Thank you JoeGoaUK for your photos that say more than a hundred
words in print or on the phone. By paying their taxes, the citizens that
live within the purvey of the Panjim municipality have a contract with the
CCP. By forcing its employees to go on strike, and not collecting garbage,
the CCP has broken this contract. I have a suggestion for the citizens of
Panjim. Take your garbage and dump it at the office and/or home of the
corporator of your ward. If you have leftover garbage, dump it outside the
CCP office and if you still have leftover garbage dump it outside the office
and/or home of your MLA. These are the people you elected to public office
to serve you. Rest assured, serving you is not at the top of their agenda.

<I read about this in today's Goan papers as well. Can some one on the
ground please inform goanetters whether the stench is emanating just from
the uncollected garbage or whether the decaying congress administration is
contributing to it too?>

RESPONSE: 9 months later, the Congress-led Government of Goa should realize
that come what may, they will not be allowed to govern the state. There will
always be some poor sob who will derail every attempt the government of the
day makes that relate to governing of the state and its people. Every
politician of every party has demonstrated time and again that unless they
have a 'kodel', they will not allow anybody else to sit in it peacefully.

As far as our politicians are concerned, personal compulsions far outweigh
the needs of the state of Goa and its people. And I mean politicians at
every level - from the panch, sarpanch.......all the way up to the highest
political office in the state.
From the Navhind Times, Feb 25, 2008: The acting CCP mayor, Mr Yatin Parekh
told 'The Navhind Times' this evening "We hope that good sense prevails in
the government and it agrees to the CCP demand so that we can immediately
start the city cleaning operation," he pointed out.

Is this Yatin for real?? Does he have any "good sense" in himself??
Blackmail the government to do your own job? Well I hope the government does
not give in to his demands and I hope the people of Panjim riot at the CCP
corporators.....and no marks for guessing who Mr Parekh will be calling on
to protect him at that time.

As many have said here, the train has left the station........and it ain't
going anywhere nice!!

- Bosco
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-25 16:21:24 UTC
Permalink
I have several problems with this prelude to a
t?te???t?te from Rajan, as with some of his other
logorrheic missives.

I do not think an interrogation by Dr. Parrikar is
more credible than a certificate from India experts
from anywhere. While a temperate 3-month travelogue
has value beyond its wonderful visual appeal, a serial
xenophobic rant of any duration is counterproductive.
I know of no problem that has been solved by breeding
contempt against underprivileged soft targets. I am
yet to see any level-headed cogent argument for the
proposition that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause
of the destruction of Goa.

By all accounts, both proximal and distal, the
mutilation of the Goan landscape is driven by greed,
particularly of the wealthy and the powerful in the
heart of Goa, and also by an enduring insensitivity of
the native Goan populace to institutionalized
corruption.

Cheers,

Santosh
Awhile back, you had offered gratuitous advice to
someone on Goanet, asking him to emulate Vivian
D'Souza by spending extended time in Goa. I now
invite you to ingest your own medicine. No need
to spend a year a la Vivian-bab. 2 or 3 months will
suffice. I can give you pointers - if you need them
- on
where to go and where to look. Once you have
assessed
how the land lies and digested the situation, you
and I
can get together to discuss the matter of my
caricatures
of migrants/bhaile. You can then evaluate my
portrayal,
whether it is real or a figment of my imagination.
A
summary of our t?te???t?te can then be posted here
on Goanet.
I urge you to acquire ground level experience with
the
current migrant situation in Goa, both at the top
and
the bottom end. It will then become that much
harder
for you to say silly things in public. Either that
or you c
an continue dripping woolly-headed treacle from your
cushy pad 12,000 miles away.
...........................................
Based on my experience with the so-called "India
experts"
in America and Europe, I would not rush to award Dr.
Newman
so blanket a certificate. It is true that Dr.
Newman will know
more about Goan culture than Dr. Helekar (per
Helekar-bab's
own implicit admission) but I can confirm only that
much
and no more. Inorder to correctly assess Dr.
Newman's
knowledge about matters Goan, I will have to
interrogate
him myself.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-26 04:07:36 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
I have several problems with this prelude to a
t?te???t?te from Rajan, as with some of his other
logorrheic missives.
I do not think an interrogation by Dr. Parrikar is
more credible than a certificate from India experts
from anywhere.
That bit was a minor aside in my previous rejoinder
yet Dr. Helekar seems to think it major enough to
advance it to the top of his response. Be that as it
may, opinions and hypotheses must be (preferably)
based on available evidence, which is the foundation
of the scientific method. For an accurate reckoning
of Dr. Newman's knowledge of Goa, I would need to
interrogate him. Past experience has taught me not
to rely on a man's writings alone in the fields of
cultural and social anthropology. Dr. Helekar
appears to subscribe to a different technique,
one relying on hearsay, the number of believers,
reputation etc. At any rate, if Newman floats
Helekar's boat, far be it from me to try and rock it.
Post by Santosh Helekar
While a temperate 3-month travelogue
has value beyond its wonderful visual appeal, a serial
xenophobic rant of any duration is counterproductive.
I know of no problem that has been solved by breeding
contempt against underprivileged soft targets. I am
yet to see any level-headed cogent argument for the
proposition that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause
of the destruction of Goa.
Again, Dr. Helekar bobs and weaves, and misrepresents
the problem. Nobody I know to be sensible has claimed
that bhaile and ghatis are the "root cause" of the
destruction of Goa (if there is a "root cause" at all).
I have made the case several times here that they
represent ONE problem, and in my view, a major one
now. Dr. Helekar can refute or confirm my assessment,
but only if he would first deign to step into the field
laboratory.

For once he should ingest the medicine he has been
administering to others: come and spend time here in
the theatre, see it for yourself, then when you have had
sufficient brush with the reality of Goa today, go ahead
and form your opinion. If you choose to not follow up
on this suggestion, I will understand, and I say that
in all seriousness. We all have constraints - family,
career, job, circumstances etc etc.

As things stand, my "xenophobic rant" has one virtue
over Dr. Helekar's pious cant: it comes out of experience
in the field. Dr. Helekar, on the other hand, seems to
be no more than a long-distance opinionista.
Post by Santosh Helekar
By all accounts, both proximal and distal, the
mutilation of the Goan landscape is driven by greed,
particularly of the wealthy and the powerful in the
heart of Goa, and also by an enduring insensitivity of
the native Goan populace to institutionalized
corruption.
Destruction of landscape is ONE of the major problems
afflicting Goa. There are several others, many of them
interlinked. The platitudes you write above are all too
well known. They add nothing to what we already know.
Insight into the what, why, and, how-can-we-fix-this-
-mess? takes a great deal more than facile pecks at
the keyboard.

Warm regards,


r




____________________________________________________________________________________
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Santosh Helekar
2008-02-28 06:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Parrikar has compounded his problems. His
insinuation of the scientific method in the task of
judging Robert Newman's credentials is absurd. To make
matters worse he conflates the scientific method with
his idiosyncratic fixation on a personal
interrogation. It is well known that in science, or
for that matter, in any other field, including social
and cultural anthropology, the competence of a scholar
is judged by a critical reading of his writings, and
on how well he is regarded and cited by his peers.
This judgment does not hang on the availability of a
report of a one-on-one interrogation administered by
some finicky lay person.

On the issue of Goa, at first Dr. Parrikar appears to
be backtracking from his earlier stance by denying
that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause of Goa's
problems, even though decrying them has been the
centerpiece of his sabbatical campaign in Goa. But
then he clarifies that they are merely one major
problem. The trouble with this, however, is that, once
again, he fails to explain exactly what this problem
is, let alone provide a coherent rationale for it.

Finally, speaking of platitudes, he does not realize
that the worst of these banalities involve playing the
blame game - the relentless reprobation of bhaile,
ghanti and the rest of India for no substantive
reason, which has been going on in Goa since the 60's,
and on Goanet, since its inception. Dr. Parrikar did
not invent these epithets, nor this trite excuse, on
his ongoing epiphanic extended vacation in Goa.

I don't have to go on a prolonged fact-finding
furlough to Goa, or engage in a protracted
interrogathon of an indigene on Goan soil, to know
that there is nothing original, insightful or
sagacious about blaming others for our failings.

Cheers,

Santosh
Be that as it may, opinions and hypotheses must be
(preferably) based on available evidence, which is
the >foundation of the scientific method. For an
accurate >reckoning of Dr. Newman's knowledge of Goa,
I would >need to interrogate him. Past experience has
taught >me not
to rely on a man's writings alone in the fields of
cultural and social anthropology. Dr. Helekar
appears to subscribe to a different technique,
one relying on hearsay, the number of believers,
reputation etc.
....................................
I have made the case several times here that they
represent ONE problem, and in my view, a major one
now. Dr. Helekar can refute or confirm my
assessment,
but only if he would first deign to step into the
field
laboratory.
....................................
As things stand, my "xenophobic rant" has one virtue
over Dr. Helekar's pious cant: it comes out of
experience
in the field. Dr. Helekar, on the other hand, seems
to
be no more than a long-distance opinionista.
........................
The platitudes you write above are all
too
well known. They add nothing to what we already
know.
Insight into the what, why, and,
how-can-we-fix-this-
-mess? takes a great deal more than facile pecks at
the keyboard.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-28 15:08:52 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
On the issue of Goa, at first Dr. Parrikar appears to
be backtracking from his earlier stance by denying
that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause of Goa's
problems, even though decrying them has been the
centerpiece of his sabbatical campaign in Goa. But
then he clarifies that they are merely one major
problem.
There is not even a sliver of backtracking here.
Dr. Helekar could have avoided this embarrassing
boo-boo and spared us the spectacle of his being hoist
by his own petard if only he had a modicum of respect
for the rudiments of the scientific method he has been
touting on this forum. A minor dig into the Goanet
archives would have disabused him of his serious
misperceptions.

Reference #1:
Sept 18, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-September/062284.html
<quote>
"The harebrained tourism policy, the real estate mafia,
the builders, our political leaders, the curse of uncultured
Dilliwallahs seeking an old Portuguese house, the ridiculously
priced apartments targeted at bhailes, the Russian mafia,
drug running along the coastal belt, rave parties, the ghati
menace - all these are interlinked, symbiotic cancers currently
eating away at Goa's soul. For purposes of discussion and
strategy on how to combat the scourge, we have to break
down the problem into smaller manageable portions. Here
I have addressed the ghati menace but this is really a part
of a bigger affliction."
<unquote>

Reference #2:
Dec 14, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-December/066365.html
<quote>
"Outsiders are not the ONLY problem, but they are A problem,
and a major one at that."
<unquote>


Reference #3:
Jan 6, 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-January/067465.html
<quote>
"It has never been anybody's case that the migrants
are the ONLY major problem currently wracking Goa,
as claimed by the Marxist gits. The alarming levels of
migrant presence are A (as in "one") major problem."
<unquote>


Warm regards,


r




____________________________________________________________________________________
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Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-28 16:05:43 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
Dr. Parrikar has compounded his problems. His
insinuation of the scientific method in the task of
judging Robert Newman's credentials is absurd. To make
matters worse he conflates the scientific method with
his idiosyncratic fixation on a personal
interrogation. It is well known that in science, or
for that matter, in any other field, including social
and cultural anthropology, the competence of a scholar
is judged by a critical reading of his writings, and
on how well he is regarded and cited by his peers.
This judgment does not hang on the availability of a
report of a one-on-one interrogation administered by
some finicky lay person.
The holes in Dr. Helekar's thinking above are larger
than his zipcode. We were not disputing Dr. Newman's
competence. Dr. Helekar has moved the goalpost now
to suit himself. We were disputing Dr. Helekar's gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan. The surest
way to validate Dr. Helekar's claim is a direct interrogation
of Dr. Newman. That is why a PhD candidate is called
upon to make an oral defense regardless of the number
of peer-reviewed papers, scholarly articles, and books
he may have to his credit. Because writing is only
suggestive, not conclusive. Only a direct oral
interrogation can definitively establish the depth - or
the lack of it - of a man's knowledge of a subject area.

Now then, with my background and expertise, I can
evaluate Dr. Newman's fitness in the field of Goan
music, an important element of culture. To be more
specific, the non-Western, non-Christian elements
of Goan music. For the other major areas of culture,
we can draw on Goan experts from those departments
to take stock of Dr. Newman.

But all this is beside the point. Dr. Helekar was talking
through his hat with that remark about Dr. Newman's
preeminence in matters about Goan culture. Nobody
who has the slightest idea of what the term "culture"
encompasses would have made so silly a remark.

Warm regards,


r





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Santosh Helekar
2008-02-29 16:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Parrikar and his followers (or Drs. Parrikars) are
contricting their goal from Goan culture in general
to non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music,
just to suit their argument. Their claim that
scholarly writing is merely suggestive of knowledge is
bogus. This may be true for platitudes, rants and
Goanet posts, but peer-reviewed writings resulting
from original research, as in the case of Robert
Newman, speaks to his knowledge and expertise in that
field.

Now regarding Dr. Parrikar's claim of being an expert
in Goan music, by his own temperamental criteria, how
can we be sure he is not talking through his hat? Who
has interrogated him on this front? Which Ph.D.
committee has certified him in the specific area of
non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music?

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
The holes in Dr. Helekar's thinking above are larger
than his zipcode. We were not disputing Dr.
Newman's
competence. Dr. Helekar has moved the goalpost now
to suit himself. We were disputing Dr. Helekar's
gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan. The surest
way to validate Dr. Helekar's claim is a direct
interrogation
of Dr. Newman. That is why a PhD candidate is
called
upon to make an oral defense regardless of the
number
of peer-reviewed papers, scholarly articles, and
books
he may have to his credit. Because writing is only
suggestive, not conclusive. Only a direct oral
interrogation can definitively establish the depth -
or
the lack of it - of a man's knowledge of a subject
area.
Now then, with my background and expertise, I can
evaluate Dr. Newman's fitness in the field of Goan
music, an important element of culture. To be more
specific, the non-Western, non-Christian elements
of Goan music. For the other major areas of
culture,
we can draw on Goan experts from those departments
to take stock of Dr. Newman.
But all this is beside the point. Dr. Helekar was
talking
through his hat with that remark about Dr. Newman's
preeminence in matters about Goan culture. Nobody
who has the slightest idea of what the term
"culture"
encompasses would have made so silly a remark.
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-29 22:24:29 UTC
Permalink
In his latest installment Dr. Parrikar confuses the
scientific method with the trivial act of digging
through the Goanet archives.

Reading what he has dug out of the archives again only
confirms my earlier suspicion that his statements on
what he refers to as the ghanti affliction are far
from being coherent, thoughtful and level-headed.

Here are some examples of his wildly inconsistent and
slapdash claims:

1. "Every piece of unthinking rubbish, every concrete
atrocity (in Goa) is an Indian contribution"
2. "Nobody I know to be sensible has claimed that
bhaile and ghatis are the "root cause" of the
destruction of Goa"
3. "the great virtue of Goa (is) in being not-India?
4. "Here I have addressed the ghati menace but this is
really a part of a bigger affliction."
5. "A sea of ghatis and migrants have encroached on
our land, have created civic, social, and law-&-order
issues. The rich Indians have descended on Goa with
their own brand of poison. The tide shows no signs of
abating."
6. "It has never been anybody's case that the migrants
are the ONLY major problem currently wracking Goa, as
claimed by the Marxist gits."
7. "You only have to look at the stinking dumpsters
EVERY Indian city and town has turned into. Do we
want Goa, the final bastion of civilized living in
India, to be conjoined to an identical fate?"
8. "Outsiders are not the ONLY problem, but they are A
problem, and a major one at that."

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
There is not even a sliver of backtracking here.
Dr. Helekar could have avoided this embarrassing
boo-boo and spared us the spectacle of his being
hoist
by his own petard if only he had a modicum of
respect
for the rudiments of the scientific method he has
been
touting on this forum. A minor dig into the Goanet
archives would have disabused him of his serious
misperceptions.
Sept 18, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-September/062284.html
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
.............................................
Dec 14, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-December/066365.html
...............................................
Jan 6, 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-January/067465.html
Venantius Pinto
2008-02-29 18:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Dear Rajan,
I am (after much thought) surprised that you took Santosh Helekar's
statement clinically. In a sense, that you took it to heart. There is
no doubt that people, and we Goans respect you, but I also feel that
one could ask direct questions. "Santosh-bab, do you feel that Dr.
Newman really understands our music (or something to that effect)."
Anyway, it appears that it would have been acceptable had Helekar said
that, Dr. Newman knows more about Goa than "most" Goans, instead of
knowing more than any Goan. In the end the record will speak for
itself.

Man, you guys individually have more brainpower than most people on
this sorry earth, including in Goa. This reminds me of an interesting
Japanese proverb, Sannin yoreba Monju no chie (Three people together
have the wisdom of a Buddha), or the tepid English version, Two heads
are better than one. Monju is the 'saint' of wisdom in Buddhism.

venantius
From: "Rajan P. Parrikar" <parrikar at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan archetypes, stereotypes and caricatures
To Goanet -
We were disputing Dr. Helekar's gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan.
Santosh Helekar
2008-03-01 06:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Venantius Pinto
Anyway, it appears that it would have been
acceptable had Helekar said that, Dr. Newman knows
more about Goa than "most" Goans, instead of
knowing more than any Goan. In the end the record
will speak for itself.
Hi Venantius,

You are being misled about what I said. I submit to
you that my assertion in this regard would be
acceptable without any change. Here is my quote for
your information:

"I heard recently that even the extremely bhailo
Robert Newman, who arguably knows more about Goan
culture than any other contemporary bhitol'lo or
bhitol'lem, was not
spared in this regard."

I am sure you will note the words "arguably" and
"contemporary", and the sense in which the words
"bhitol'lo" and "bhitol'lem" are used.

Cheers,

Santosh
Cecil Pinto
2008-02-22 10:47:14 UTC
Permalink
Goan archetypes, stereotypes and caricatures
They don't get it, they never will.
By Cecil Pinto

Last week NDTV featured an interesting documentary "Where's Sandra?"
This 18 minute film, I quote, 'takes a playful look at the figure of
Sandra from Bandra - part covetous fantasy of the racy Christian girl
from Bombay who works as a secretary, wears a dress and likes to
dance; part condescending stereotype of a dowdy, religious girl from a
minority community.'

One of Mario Miranda's endearing cartoon characters is the sexy
secretary Miss Fonseca. Mario has also caricatured so many Goan
archetypes ? the bhatkar (landlord), the gossipy elderly spinster, the
priest, the fisherwoman, the Hindu gentleman, the drunk etc etc.

Alex Fernandes, Goa's specialist portrait photographer, recently he
had an exhibition of his Tiatriste series. Many tiatristes have taken
archetypical characters and fleshed them out. Some of these existed,
some are creations ? all are caricatures. Succorine's colourfully
clothed buxom fisherwoman, with flowers in her hair and a lot of gold
chains and bangles, is very real. But how real is Cyriaco Dias'
bhatkar? When did you last see a Goan landlord smoking a pipe, wearing
suspenders, and wearing a silk house coat at home? The comedian cook
(cuzinher), the evil step-mother, the witty village belle? Do such
people exist or are they creations of the tiatr genre?

When this writer (always wanted to say that - 'this writer' has such a
formal pompous feel to it!) pokes fun at the Gulfee wife, the
Moidekar, the Toronto Goan on holiday, or the belligerent and greedy
South Goan taxi driver, we don't take it to heart but accept it in the
spirit of entertainment. We are even willing to suspend disbelief
despite gross exaggeration. Similarly we are ever forgiving of Mario
Miranda and the tiatristes. Caricatures are never taken at face value
? when the caricaturist is one of us. But if, God forbid, an
'outsider' pokes fun at our foibles we are immediately up in arms.

In a Bollywood movie should a Goan character be portrayed as a drunk,
or a Catholic girl be shown as being promiscuous, the entire moral
brigade is up in arms. Mona, Robert, Julie, Lily, Anthony, Rosy,
Peter, Maria, Michael? the daru drinkers, vamps, barmaids, cabaret
dancers, bandleaders, henchmen are the characters that get attention
and cause offense. Nobody mentions the hundreds of times Goans and
Christians are portrayed in a non-stereotypical manner. Go watch 'Kal
Ho Na Ho' or 'Black' for example.

Mario Cabral e Sa often writes about the shenanigans of the Goan
mistresses during the Portuguese era. Historian Fatima Gracias
recently re-released book on 'Women in Goa' has reams of interesting
stuff. For example at the end of the sixteenth century, (Page 4) "Life
in the city of Goa was ceaseless rounds of amorous assignments and
sexual delights?". "Albuquerque also complained that Portuguese men
carried women along with them out of Goa or to the ships for casual
sex?" As recent as 1931 the break up of registered prostitutes in Goa
was about 1000 (with Ponda topping the list at 277, Bardez-186,
Salcete-172, Ilhas-119). In 1936 the figures rose considerably
(Hindu-1784, Christian-141, Muslims-9).

Fatima's fascinating book goes on to examine the different categories
of dancing girls (kalavantam / bailaderias) from pre-pubescent girls
to widows, but I am getting distracted. We can accept all this from
Fatima or Mario because they are our fellow Goans. As also the
statistic from me that there are more bars per capita in Goa than in
any state/country in the whole of Asia, Africa or South America.

But when the 16th century Dutch traveller John Huyghen Van Linschoten
writes that "married ladies drugged their husband with datura so they
could have freedom with their lovers", we find this unbelievable. Or
take the 19th century explorer and adventurer Richard Burton who
claims that there were 20 establishments in Shiroda each having 50-60
dancing girls. We can't take this from an outsider. It is documented
also how Goan dancing girls migrated to Bombay and were highly desired
there as prostitutes and mistresses. Depending on who is doing the
documentation, and the narration, we will either believe or rubbish
this.

This acceptance of stereotyping or observations by insiders is true of
every community. On once social occasion I happened to be in the
company of gay friends who were relating the most disgustingly
delicious gay jokes. In a spirited fashion I cracked a vulgar gay joke
myself. Conversation stopped and I was quite the social outcast till
lots more alcohol had been imbibed. The point being it is ok for us to
make fun of ourselves, but if you are an outsider you don't have that
privilege.

The token Muslim in many Hindi movies always wears a sherwani, sports
a long beard and is a poet of sorts ? or in recent times is a Pakistan
trained militant. The Tamilian keeps repeating a thickly accented
"ayyo amma", and the Parsi gentleman is eccentric with an old world
charm. Not vastly different from our tiatr stereotypes.

We Goans forward Sardaji jokes by the dozen. We stereotype them as dim
witted and loud mouthed. Does that make our Prime Minister Manmohan
Singh any less respected an economist and statesman? Do you think
Sardajis care a whit? They know who they are. Why then do we get our
collective imported panties in a knot when a Goan is stereotyped?

Bollywood is about formulae and what works is repeated endlessly.
Brothers separated at birth, romance between people of incompatible
religion/society, revenge for honour, unrealistic song and dance
routines and yes, stereotyped communities. Tiatrs too have their
formulae. Reality is suspended in both.

Let's not shout "Objection mi Lord!" every time a Goan stereotype is
caricatured by outsiders. Let's revel in the thought that we as a
people live life abundantly and that's something the outsiders can
never fathom. Our men are not drunks, our women are not easy. It's
just that we Goans, wherever we live, cultivate a certain lifestyle
that others aspire for but can never quite acquire. Let them call us
'sussegad' without quite understanding the nuances of the word. We
will just wink at each other in our laidback way and understand why
they are envious - of something they can never quite comprehend,
imbibe or achieve.




----------
The column above appeared in the Gomantak Times dated 21st ebruary 2008
=====
Mervyn Lobo
2008-02-22 15:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cecil Pinto
We Goans forward Sardaji jokes by the dozen. We stereotype them as dim
witted and loud mouthed. Does that make our Prime Minister Manmohan
Singh any less respected an economist and statesman?
Thank you for this, Cecil.
I read somewhere that a politician makes decisions with winning the next elections as his main objective. A statesman makes decisions with the objective of providing prosperity for the next generation.
Mervyn3.0




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Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-23 07:09:36 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -

I thought this was a poorly written, incoherent piece.
Cecil Pinto has written much better columns before.

The phenomenon of the privileges an insider enjoys
is well-known and universally accepted. For instance,
blacks in America often refer to one another as "Hey
you nigga bradah." But you, a non-black, would do
well to abstain from calling a black man "nigger." Even
in your own family, there are terms of endearment or
derision you may employ on some member that you
would take great offense if uttered by an outsider,
however well-meaning.

On the subject of caricature - it is a healthy habit
to poke fun at oneself now and then, and to not
be too sensitive to every little gob of criticism or
caricature. The outsider is allowed the business of
caricature but the insider's reaction may depend on
the specific circumstance. Frequency, content, and
intent can help determine if it is good-natured ribbing,
honest criticism, or a snide putdown.

But Cecil has missed out on a critical observation
concerning the caricature department and Goa. It
is that the line between the caricatures of Goa and
reality has been blurred beyond repair. To non-Goans,
the caricature itself is the reality of Goa. Look at the
way we Goans are portrayed - as insignificant, nameless,
shadowy figures, always hovering in the background,
(that Remo and Hema are thrown in now and then does
not alter this picture).

Or consider the silly images of Goa one encounters in
articles, magazines, books etc. For this state of affairs,
we have ourselves to blame. True, we are too small a
community that always runs the risk of a wipeout in the
Indian swamp. But we have let ourselves, our land,
our religious and cultural traditions be defined by
others and wholly within the framework of tourism.
Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip.

We have ceded ground by not asserting ourselves
appropriately and widely enough. Many Goans
themselves remain ignorant of the wealth in our
midst. It is absurd that today the "go to" people on
matters Goa and Goan are bhaile who think they know
it all after a few years of domicile here.

In the latest issue of Parmal (Goa Heritage Action Group's
magazine) is reproduced an essay by Robert Newman (*).
Dr. Newman makes very good observations on this
issue of Goa's caricature. The essay has been posted here
earlier. See -

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-news-goanet.org/2007-May/002055.html


(*) Sometime in the 1970s, St Inez - then a quiet, beautiful
village of orchards and fields - was agog at the sight of
this unsual couple - a saree-clad Indian lady and a white
man - strolling its streets. I remember them well (they had
rented an apartment from our family friends). It was
Professor Newman and his wife Sudha. A couple of years
ago, through Frederick Noronha as the intermediary, I had
occasion after almost 30 years to establish contact with him.

Warm regards,


r




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Gilbert Lawrence
2008-02-23 18:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Rajan's post below provides interesting insights into Goans. My response is to his post; and not to the original thread. While Parrikar's response was revealing, a few responses on this thread caricatured the caricature.:=)).

Here are a few thoughts to Rajan's wise commentary. I have selected four pertinent points which are mentioned below:

1. The "caricature itself is the reality of Goa" is not by non-Goans. That "reality" is often held by Goans themselves. Most Goans, and the many posts seen on this web site, present Goa as a caricature. Few know the specifics of what Goa and Goans stand for. For many Diaspora Goans, the native language that is a common bond, in most ethnic groups, is foreign. Goans are loath to concede the reality of progress and fearful about counting our blessings. Yes, there is the wearying intransigence of the behavior of the politicians with repeated elections or threats there off.

2. The above brings me to the second point. The caricature is not for tourism. It is indigenous, because of a lack of knowledge of Goa by Goans. "Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip" happens because most Goans do not know "Goa's fantastic heritage". And the many who quote the heritage, only do so to demagogue it. Hence no surprise, the heritage will look "like a comic strip". So let's not blame the "bhaile" for our shortcomings.

3. Rajan's third point below reinforces the above. We "ceded ground by not asserting ourselves appropriately and widely enough". This is because most of those who occupy the "ground" are Goans, who take pride in being "anti-Goan" on any-and-all issues. Being articulate by being "anti-", with no constructive solutions and comments, leads us 'spinning our wheels'. This occurs on many topics pertaining to Goa. The most recent ones were about caste and religion. The protagonist on 'widespread practice of casteism' could produce no "casteism data" when he maligned Goa's institutions. And his sources / lurkers could not / did not produce any posts (evidence) on this web site, even after he "offered to work on their English" in their posts. Hence there was little factual support to the never-ending discussion of Goa's casteism practices. This while the protagonist repeatedly displayed (as I showed) his own casteist writings and attitudes, including threatening us with his academic IPs (international papers).

4. The "go to" people are the bhaile, to get a feeling if atleast an outsider can make sense of Goan attitudes. As Rajan suggests, the bhaile too are confused. This was best reflected by Nehru's well known statements, when he described Goan attitudes.

Kind Regards, GL

--------------- Rajan P. Parrikar

the line between the caricatures of Goa and reality has been blurred beyond repair. To non-Goans, the caricature itself is the reality of Goa.

But we have let ourselves, our land, our religious and cultural traditions be defined by others and wholly within the framework of tourism. Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip.

We have ceded ground by not asserting ourselves appropriately and widely enough. Many Goans themselves remain ignorant of the wealth in our midst.

It is absurd that today the "go to" people on matters Goa and Goan are bhaile who think they know it all after a few years of domicile here.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-24 08:15:35 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet-
It is true that to free ourselves from the well-worn
caricatures created by "bhaile" from the "Indian
swamp" we have to educate ourselves about our
indigenous culture, which stretches over three
millennia.
My goal is more modest. I would like Goans to first
learn about their more recent past. Say, from the 10th C
onwards to the present will do.
The irony is that in doing so we will find
out how deeply moored we are in the Indian swamp, and
Why is this ironical? This is known to even women
and children. It is nobody's contention that we have
no links with the greater Indian ethos. You seem to be
tilting at windmills here.
We will also find out how the settlements of the
past became the orchards and fields of today, and vice
versa.
We already know that. You have missed the essential
point by a couple of light years. In much of the imperial
or colonial past, one had no control over the (usually)
violent takeover of territory and peoples. Today we have
a degree of control and say in how we wish to run our
land and our lives. The question then becomes: are the
changes taking place under our nose to our greater
good or to our detriment? I have already given my
answers to this and related questions. As evidence in
support of my position, I have pointed to India's
spectacularly dismal record in the past 50 years of
turning everything good to garbage.
The greatest irony of all, however, is that the
caricatured bhitol'le of today love to concoct
burlesque portraits of the bhaile themselves.
You must be fond of the word "irony." The migrant
situation is far too grave for these useless bouts of
back-and-forth logomachy.

Awhile back, you had offered gratuitous advice to
someone on Goanet, asking him to emulate Vivian
D'Souza by spending extended time in Goa. I now
invite you to ingest your own medicine. No need
to spend a year a la Vivian-bab. 2 or 3 months will
suffice. I can give you pointers - if you need them - on
where to go and where to look. Once you have assessed
how the land lies and digested the situation, you and I
can get together to discuss the matter of my caricatures
of migrants/bhaile. You can then evaluate my portrayal,
whether it is real or a figment of my imagination. A
summary of our t?te???t?te can then be posted here
on Goanet.

I urge you to acquire ground level experience with the
current migrant situation in Goa, both at the top and
the bottom end. It will then become that much harder
for you to say silly things in public. Either that or you c
an continue dripping woolly-headed treacle from your
cushy pad 12,000 miles away.
I heard recently that even the extremely bhailo Robert Newman,
who arguably knows more about Goan culture than any
other contemporary bhitol'lo or bhitol'lem, was not
spared in this regard.
Based on my experience with the so-called "India experts"
in America and Europe, I would not rush to award Dr. Newman
so blanket a certificate. It is true that Dr. Newman will know
more about Goan culture than Dr. Helekar (per Helekar-bab's
own implicit admission) but I can confirm only that much
and no more. Inorder to correctly assess Dr. Newman's
knowledge about matters Goan, I will have to interrogate
him myself.

Warm regards,


r





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anil desai
2008-02-24 17:21:49 UTC
Permalink
I read about this in today's Goan papers as well. Can some one on the ground
please inform goanetters whether the stench is emanating just from the
uncollected garbage or whether the decaying congress administration is
contributing to it too?
Dr Anil Desai
Bosco D'Mello
2008-02-25 03:16:17 UTC
Permalink
<Don't understand why the Mayor got involved or what business he had at the
police station on that fateful night?>

RESPONSE: Thank you JoeGoaUK for your photos that say more than a hundred
words in print or on the phone. By paying their taxes, the citizens that
live within the purvey of the Panjim municipality have a contract with the
CCP. By forcing its employees to go on strike, and not collecting garbage,
the CCP has broken this contract. I have a suggestion for the citizens of
Panjim. Take your garbage and dump it at the office and/or home of the
corporator of your ward. If you have leftover garbage, dump it outside the
CCP office and if you still have leftover garbage dump it outside the office
and/or home of your MLA. These are the people you elected to public office
to serve you. Rest assured, serving you is not at the top of their agenda.

<I read about this in today's Goan papers as well. Can some one on the
ground please inform goanetters whether the stench is emanating just from
the uncollected garbage or whether the decaying congress administration is
contributing to it too?>

RESPONSE: 9 months later, the Congress-led Government of Goa should realize
that come what may, they will not be allowed to govern the state. There will
always be some poor sob who will derail every attempt the government of the
day makes that relate to governing of the state and its people. Every
politician of every party has demonstrated time and again that unless they
have a 'kodel', they will not allow anybody else to sit in it peacefully.

As far as our politicians are concerned, personal compulsions far outweigh
the needs of the state of Goa and its people. And I mean politicians at
every level - from the panch, sarpanch.......all the way up to the highest
political office in the state.
From the Navhind Times, Feb 25, 2008: The acting CCP mayor, Mr Yatin Parekh
told 'The Navhind Times' this evening "We hope that good sense prevails in
the government and it agrees to the CCP demand so that we can immediately
start the city cleaning operation," he pointed out.

Is this Yatin for real?? Does he have any "good sense" in himself??
Blackmail the government to do your own job? Well I hope the government does
not give in to his demands and I hope the people of Panjim riot at the CCP
corporators.....and no marks for guessing who Mr Parekh will be calling on
to protect him at that time.

As many have said here, the train has left the station........and it ain't
going anywhere nice!!

- Bosco
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-25 16:21:24 UTC
Permalink
I have several problems with this prelude to a
t?te???t?te from Rajan, as with some of his other
logorrheic missives.

I do not think an interrogation by Dr. Parrikar is
more credible than a certificate from India experts
from anywhere. While a temperate 3-month travelogue
has value beyond its wonderful visual appeal, a serial
xenophobic rant of any duration is counterproductive.
I know of no problem that has been solved by breeding
contempt against underprivileged soft targets. I am
yet to see any level-headed cogent argument for the
proposition that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause
of the destruction of Goa.

By all accounts, both proximal and distal, the
mutilation of the Goan landscape is driven by greed,
particularly of the wealthy and the powerful in the
heart of Goa, and also by an enduring insensitivity of
the native Goan populace to institutionalized
corruption.

Cheers,

Santosh
Awhile back, you had offered gratuitous advice to
someone on Goanet, asking him to emulate Vivian
D'Souza by spending extended time in Goa. I now
invite you to ingest your own medicine. No need
to spend a year a la Vivian-bab. 2 or 3 months will
suffice. I can give you pointers - if you need them
- on
where to go and where to look. Once you have
assessed
how the land lies and digested the situation, you
and I
can get together to discuss the matter of my
caricatures
of migrants/bhaile. You can then evaluate my
portrayal,
whether it is real or a figment of my imagination.
A
summary of our t?te???t?te can then be posted here
on Goanet.
I urge you to acquire ground level experience with
the
current migrant situation in Goa, both at the top
and
the bottom end. It will then become that much
harder
for you to say silly things in public. Either that
or you c
an continue dripping woolly-headed treacle from your
cushy pad 12,000 miles away.
...........................................
Based on my experience with the so-called "India
experts"
in America and Europe, I would not rush to award Dr.
Newman
so blanket a certificate. It is true that Dr.
Newman will know
more about Goan culture than Dr. Helekar (per
Helekar-bab's
own implicit admission) but I can confirm only that
much
and no more. Inorder to correctly assess Dr.
Newman's
knowledge about matters Goan, I will have to
interrogate
him myself.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-26 04:07:36 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
I have several problems with this prelude to a
t?te???t?te from Rajan, as with some of his other
logorrheic missives.
I do not think an interrogation by Dr. Parrikar is
more credible than a certificate from India experts
from anywhere.
That bit was a minor aside in my previous rejoinder
yet Dr. Helekar seems to think it major enough to
advance it to the top of his response. Be that as it
may, opinions and hypotheses must be (preferably)
based on available evidence, which is the foundation
of the scientific method. For an accurate reckoning
of Dr. Newman's knowledge of Goa, I would need to
interrogate him. Past experience has taught me not
to rely on a man's writings alone in the fields of
cultural and social anthropology. Dr. Helekar
appears to subscribe to a different technique,
one relying on hearsay, the number of believers,
reputation etc. At any rate, if Newman floats
Helekar's boat, far be it from me to try and rock it.
Post by Santosh Helekar
While a temperate 3-month travelogue
has value beyond its wonderful visual appeal, a serial
xenophobic rant of any duration is counterproductive.
I know of no problem that has been solved by breeding
contempt against underprivileged soft targets. I am
yet to see any level-headed cogent argument for the
proposition that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause
of the destruction of Goa.
Again, Dr. Helekar bobs and weaves, and misrepresents
the problem. Nobody I know to be sensible has claimed
that bhaile and ghatis are the "root cause" of the
destruction of Goa (if there is a "root cause" at all).
I have made the case several times here that they
represent ONE problem, and in my view, a major one
now. Dr. Helekar can refute or confirm my assessment,
but only if he would first deign to step into the field
laboratory.

For once he should ingest the medicine he has been
administering to others: come and spend time here in
the theatre, see it for yourself, then when you have had
sufficient brush with the reality of Goa today, go ahead
and form your opinion. If you choose to not follow up
on this suggestion, I will understand, and I say that
in all seriousness. We all have constraints - family,
career, job, circumstances etc etc.

As things stand, my "xenophobic rant" has one virtue
over Dr. Helekar's pious cant: it comes out of experience
in the field. Dr. Helekar, on the other hand, seems to
be no more than a long-distance opinionista.
Post by Santosh Helekar
By all accounts, both proximal and distal, the
mutilation of the Goan landscape is driven by greed,
particularly of the wealthy and the powerful in the
heart of Goa, and also by an enduring insensitivity of
the native Goan populace to institutionalized
corruption.
Destruction of landscape is ONE of the major problems
afflicting Goa. There are several others, many of them
interlinked. The platitudes you write above are all too
well known. They add nothing to what we already know.
Insight into the what, why, and, how-can-we-fix-this-
-mess? takes a great deal more than facile pecks at
the keyboard.

Warm regards,


r




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Santosh Helekar
2008-02-28 06:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Parrikar has compounded his problems. His
insinuation of the scientific method in the task of
judging Robert Newman's credentials is absurd. To make
matters worse he conflates the scientific method with
his idiosyncratic fixation on a personal
interrogation. It is well known that in science, or
for that matter, in any other field, including social
and cultural anthropology, the competence of a scholar
is judged by a critical reading of his writings, and
on how well he is regarded and cited by his peers.
This judgment does not hang on the availability of a
report of a one-on-one interrogation administered by
some finicky lay person.

On the issue of Goa, at first Dr. Parrikar appears to
be backtracking from his earlier stance by denying
that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause of Goa's
problems, even though decrying them has been the
centerpiece of his sabbatical campaign in Goa. But
then he clarifies that they are merely one major
problem. The trouble with this, however, is that, once
again, he fails to explain exactly what this problem
is, let alone provide a coherent rationale for it.

Finally, speaking of platitudes, he does not realize
that the worst of these banalities involve playing the
blame game - the relentless reprobation of bhaile,
ghanti and the rest of India for no substantive
reason, which has been going on in Goa since the 60's,
and on Goanet, since its inception. Dr. Parrikar did
not invent these epithets, nor this trite excuse, on
his ongoing epiphanic extended vacation in Goa.

I don't have to go on a prolonged fact-finding
furlough to Goa, or engage in a protracted
interrogathon of an indigene on Goan soil, to know
that there is nothing original, insightful or
sagacious about blaming others for our failings.

Cheers,

Santosh
Be that as it may, opinions and hypotheses must be
(preferably) based on available evidence, which is
the >foundation of the scientific method. For an
accurate >reckoning of Dr. Newman's knowledge of Goa,
I would >need to interrogate him. Past experience has
taught >me not
to rely on a man's writings alone in the fields of
cultural and social anthropology. Dr. Helekar
appears to subscribe to a different technique,
one relying on hearsay, the number of believers,
reputation etc.
....................................
I have made the case several times here that they
represent ONE problem, and in my view, a major one
now. Dr. Helekar can refute or confirm my
assessment,
but only if he would first deign to step into the
field
laboratory.
....................................
As things stand, my "xenophobic rant" has one virtue
over Dr. Helekar's pious cant: it comes out of
experience
in the field. Dr. Helekar, on the other hand, seems
to
be no more than a long-distance opinionista.
........................
The platitudes you write above are all
too
well known. They add nothing to what we already
know.
Insight into the what, why, and,
how-can-we-fix-this-
-mess? takes a great deal more than facile pecks at
the keyboard.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-28 15:08:52 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
On the issue of Goa, at first Dr. Parrikar appears to
be backtracking from his earlier stance by denying
that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause of Goa's
problems, even though decrying them has been the
centerpiece of his sabbatical campaign in Goa. But
then he clarifies that they are merely one major
problem.
There is not even a sliver of backtracking here.
Dr. Helekar could have avoided this embarrassing
boo-boo and spared us the spectacle of his being hoist
by his own petard if only he had a modicum of respect
for the rudiments of the scientific method he has been
touting on this forum. A minor dig into the Goanet
archives would have disabused him of his serious
misperceptions.

Reference #1:
Sept 18, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-September/062284.html
<quote>
"The harebrained tourism policy, the real estate mafia,
the builders, our political leaders, the curse of uncultured
Dilliwallahs seeking an old Portuguese house, the ridiculously
priced apartments targeted at bhailes, the Russian mafia,
drug running along the coastal belt, rave parties, the ghati
menace - all these are interlinked, symbiotic cancers currently
eating away at Goa's soul. For purposes of discussion and
strategy on how to combat the scourge, we have to break
down the problem into smaller manageable portions. Here
I have addressed the ghati menace but this is really a part
of a bigger affliction."
<unquote>

Reference #2:
Dec 14, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-December/066365.html
<quote>
"Outsiders are not the ONLY problem, but they are A problem,
and a major one at that."
<unquote>


Reference #3:
Jan 6, 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-January/067465.html
<quote>
"It has never been anybody's case that the migrants
are the ONLY major problem currently wracking Goa,
as claimed by the Marxist gits. The alarming levels of
migrant presence are A (as in "one") major problem."
<unquote>


Warm regards,


r




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Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-28 16:05:43 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
Dr. Parrikar has compounded his problems. His
insinuation of the scientific method in the task of
judging Robert Newman's credentials is absurd. To make
matters worse he conflates the scientific method with
his idiosyncratic fixation on a personal
interrogation. It is well known that in science, or
for that matter, in any other field, including social
and cultural anthropology, the competence of a scholar
is judged by a critical reading of his writings, and
on how well he is regarded and cited by his peers.
This judgment does not hang on the availability of a
report of a one-on-one interrogation administered by
some finicky lay person.
The holes in Dr. Helekar's thinking above are larger
than his zipcode. We were not disputing Dr. Newman's
competence. Dr. Helekar has moved the goalpost now
to suit himself. We were disputing Dr. Helekar's gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan. The surest
way to validate Dr. Helekar's claim is a direct interrogation
of Dr. Newman. That is why a PhD candidate is called
upon to make an oral defense regardless of the number
of peer-reviewed papers, scholarly articles, and books
he may have to his credit. Because writing is only
suggestive, not conclusive. Only a direct oral
interrogation can definitively establish the depth - or
the lack of it - of a man's knowledge of a subject area.

Now then, with my background and expertise, I can
evaluate Dr. Newman's fitness in the field of Goan
music, an important element of culture. To be more
specific, the non-Western, non-Christian elements
of Goan music. For the other major areas of culture,
we can draw on Goan experts from those departments
to take stock of Dr. Newman.

But all this is beside the point. Dr. Helekar was talking
through his hat with that remark about Dr. Newman's
preeminence in matters about Goan culture. Nobody
who has the slightest idea of what the term "culture"
encompasses would have made so silly a remark.

Warm regards,


r





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Santosh Helekar
2008-02-29 16:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Parrikar and his followers (or Drs. Parrikars) are
contricting their goal from Goan culture in general
to non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music,
just to suit their argument. Their claim that
scholarly writing is merely suggestive of knowledge is
bogus. This may be true for platitudes, rants and
Goanet posts, but peer-reviewed writings resulting
from original research, as in the case of Robert
Newman, speaks to his knowledge and expertise in that
field.

Now regarding Dr. Parrikar's claim of being an expert
in Goan music, by his own temperamental criteria, how
can we be sure he is not talking through his hat? Who
has interrogated him on this front? Which Ph.D.
committee has certified him in the specific area of
non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music?

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
The holes in Dr. Helekar's thinking above are larger
than his zipcode. We were not disputing Dr.
Newman's
competence. Dr. Helekar has moved the goalpost now
to suit himself. We were disputing Dr. Helekar's
gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan. The surest
way to validate Dr. Helekar's claim is a direct
interrogation
of Dr. Newman. That is why a PhD candidate is
called
upon to make an oral defense regardless of the
number
of peer-reviewed papers, scholarly articles, and
books
he may have to his credit. Because writing is only
suggestive, not conclusive. Only a direct oral
interrogation can definitively establish the depth -
or
the lack of it - of a man's knowledge of a subject
area.
Now then, with my background and expertise, I can
evaluate Dr. Newman's fitness in the field of Goan
music, an important element of culture. To be more
specific, the non-Western, non-Christian elements
of Goan music. For the other major areas of
culture,
we can draw on Goan experts from those departments
to take stock of Dr. Newman.
But all this is beside the point. Dr. Helekar was
talking
through his hat with that remark about Dr. Newman's
preeminence in matters about Goan culture. Nobody
who has the slightest idea of what the term
"culture"
encompasses would have made so silly a remark.
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-29 22:24:29 UTC
Permalink
In his latest installment Dr. Parrikar confuses the
scientific method with the trivial act of digging
through the Goanet archives.

Reading what he has dug out of the archives again only
confirms my earlier suspicion that his statements on
what he refers to as the ghanti affliction are far
from being coherent, thoughtful and level-headed.

Here are some examples of his wildly inconsistent and
slapdash claims:

1. "Every piece of unthinking rubbish, every concrete
atrocity (in Goa) is an Indian contribution"
2. "Nobody I know to be sensible has claimed that
bhaile and ghatis are the "root cause" of the
destruction of Goa"
3. "the great virtue of Goa (is) in being not-India?
4. "Here I have addressed the ghati menace but this is
really a part of a bigger affliction."
5. "A sea of ghatis and migrants have encroached on
our land, have created civic, social, and law-&-order
issues. The rich Indians have descended on Goa with
their own brand of poison. The tide shows no signs of
abating."
6. "It has never been anybody's case that the migrants
are the ONLY major problem currently wracking Goa, as
claimed by the Marxist gits."
7. "You only have to look at the stinking dumpsters
EVERY Indian city and town has turned into. Do we
want Goa, the final bastion of civilized living in
India, to be conjoined to an identical fate?"
8. "Outsiders are not the ONLY problem, but they are A
problem, and a major one at that."

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
There is not even a sliver of backtracking here.
Dr. Helekar could have avoided this embarrassing
boo-boo and spared us the spectacle of his being
hoist
by his own petard if only he had a modicum of
respect
for the rudiments of the scientific method he has
been
touting on this forum. A minor dig into the Goanet
archives would have disabused him of his serious
misperceptions.
Sept 18, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-September/062284.html
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
.............................................
Dec 14, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-December/066365.html
...............................................
Jan 6, 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-January/067465.html
Venantius Pinto
2008-02-29 18:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Dear Rajan,
I am (after much thought) surprised that you took Santosh Helekar's
statement clinically. In a sense, that you took it to heart. There is
no doubt that people, and we Goans respect you, but I also feel that
one could ask direct questions. "Santosh-bab, do you feel that Dr.
Newman really understands our music (or something to that effect)."
Anyway, it appears that it would have been acceptable had Helekar said
that, Dr. Newman knows more about Goa than "most" Goans, instead of
knowing more than any Goan. In the end the record will speak for
itself.

Man, you guys individually have more brainpower than most people on
this sorry earth, including in Goa. This reminds me of an interesting
Japanese proverb, Sannin yoreba Monju no chie (Three people together
have the wisdom of a Buddha), or the tepid English version, Two heads
are better than one. Monju is the 'saint' of wisdom in Buddhism.

venantius
From: "Rajan P. Parrikar" <parrikar at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan archetypes, stereotypes and caricatures
To Goanet -
We were disputing Dr. Helekar's gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan.
Santosh Helekar
2008-03-01 06:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Venantius Pinto
Anyway, it appears that it would have been
acceptable had Helekar said that, Dr. Newman knows
more about Goa than "most" Goans, instead of
knowing more than any Goan. In the end the record
will speak for itself.
Hi Venantius,

You are being misled about what I said. I submit to
you that my assertion in this regard would be
acceptable without any change. Here is my quote for
your information:

"I heard recently that even the extremely bhailo
Robert Newman, who arguably knows more about Goan
culture than any other contemporary bhitol'lo or
bhitol'lem, was not
spared in this regard."

I am sure you will note the words "arguably" and
"contemporary", and the sense in which the words
"bhitol'lo" and "bhitol'lem" are used.

Cheers,

Santosh
Cecil Pinto
2008-02-22 10:47:14 UTC
Permalink
Goan archetypes, stereotypes and caricatures
They don't get it, they never will.
By Cecil Pinto

Last week NDTV featured an interesting documentary "Where's Sandra?"
This 18 minute film, I quote, 'takes a playful look at the figure of
Sandra from Bandra - part covetous fantasy of the racy Christian girl
from Bombay who works as a secretary, wears a dress and likes to
dance; part condescending stereotype of a dowdy, religious girl from a
minority community.'

One of Mario Miranda's endearing cartoon characters is the sexy
secretary Miss Fonseca. Mario has also caricatured so many Goan
archetypes ? the bhatkar (landlord), the gossipy elderly spinster, the
priest, the fisherwoman, the Hindu gentleman, the drunk etc etc.

Alex Fernandes, Goa's specialist portrait photographer, recently he
had an exhibition of his Tiatriste series. Many tiatristes have taken
archetypical characters and fleshed them out. Some of these existed,
some are creations ? all are caricatures. Succorine's colourfully
clothed buxom fisherwoman, with flowers in her hair and a lot of gold
chains and bangles, is very real. But how real is Cyriaco Dias'
bhatkar? When did you last see a Goan landlord smoking a pipe, wearing
suspenders, and wearing a silk house coat at home? The comedian cook
(cuzinher), the evil step-mother, the witty village belle? Do such
people exist or are they creations of the tiatr genre?

When this writer (always wanted to say that - 'this writer' has such a
formal pompous feel to it!) pokes fun at the Gulfee wife, the
Moidekar, the Toronto Goan on holiday, or the belligerent and greedy
South Goan taxi driver, we don't take it to heart but accept it in the
spirit of entertainment. We are even willing to suspend disbelief
despite gross exaggeration. Similarly we are ever forgiving of Mario
Miranda and the tiatristes. Caricatures are never taken at face value
? when the caricaturist is one of us. But if, God forbid, an
'outsider' pokes fun at our foibles we are immediately up in arms.

In a Bollywood movie should a Goan character be portrayed as a drunk,
or a Catholic girl be shown as being promiscuous, the entire moral
brigade is up in arms. Mona, Robert, Julie, Lily, Anthony, Rosy,
Peter, Maria, Michael? the daru drinkers, vamps, barmaids, cabaret
dancers, bandleaders, henchmen are the characters that get attention
and cause offense. Nobody mentions the hundreds of times Goans and
Christians are portrayed in a non-stereotypical manner. Go watch 'Kal
Ho Na Ho' or 'Black' for example.

Mario Cabral e Sa often writes about the shenanigans of the Goan
mistresses during the Portuguese era. Historian Fatima Gracias
recently re-released book on 'Women in Goa' has reams of interesting
stuff. For example at the end of the sixteenth century, (Page 4) "Life
in the city of Goa was ceaseless rounds of amorous assignments and
sexual delights?". "Albuquerque also complained that Portuguese men
carried women along with them out of Goa or to the ships for casual
sex?" As recent as 1931 the break up of registered prostitutes in Goa
was about 1000 (with Ponda topping the list at 277, Bardez-186,
Salcete-172, Ilhas-119). In 1936 the figures rose considerably
(Hindu-1784, Christian-141, Muslims-9).

Fatima's fascinating book goes on to examine the different categories
of dancing girls (kalavantam / bailaderias) from pre-pubescent girls
to widows, but I am getting distracted. We can accept all this from
Fatima or Mario because they are our fellow Goans. As also the
statistic from me that there are more bars per capita in Goa than in
any state/country in the whole of Asia, Africa or South America.

But when the 16th century Dutch traveller John Huyghen Van Linschoten
writes that "married ladies drugged their husband with datura so they
could have freedom with their lovers", we find this unbelievable. Or
take the 19th century explorer and adventurer Richard Burton who
claims that there were 20 establishments in Shiroda each having 50-60
dancing girls. We can't take this from an outsider. It is documented
also how Goan dancing girls migrated to Bombay and were highly desired
there as prostitutes and mistresses. Depending on who is doing the
documentation, and the narration, we will either believe or rubbish
this.

This acceptance of stereotyping or observations by insiders is true of
every community. On once social occasion I happened to be in the
company of gay friends who were relating the most disgustingly
delicious gay jokes. In a spirited fashion I cracked a vulgar gay joke
myself. Conversation stopped and I was quite the social outcast till
lots more alcohol had been imbibed. The point being it is ok for us to
make fun of ourselves, but if you are an outsider you don't have that
privilege.

The token Muslim in many Hindi movies always wears a sherwani, sports
a long beard and is a poet of sorts ? or in recent times is a Pakistan
trained militant. The Tamilian keeps repeating a thickly accented
"ayyo amma", and the Parsi gentleman is eccentric with an old world
charm. Not vastly different from our tiatr stereotypes.

We Goans forward Sardaji jokes by the dozen. We stereotype them as dim
witted and loud mouthed. Does that make our Prime Minister Manmohan
Singh any less respected an economist and statesman? Do you think
Sardajis care a whit? They know who they are. Why then do we get our
collective imported panties in a knot when a Goan is stereotyped?

Bollywood is about formulae and what works is repeated endlessly.
Brothers separated at birth, romance between people of incompatible
religion/society, revenge for honour, unrealistic song and dance
routines and yes, stereotyped communities. Tiatrs too have their
formulae. Reality is suspended in both.

Let's not shout "Objection mi Lord!" every time a Goan stereotype is
caricatured by outsiders. Let's revel in the thought that we as a
people live life abundantly and that's something the outsiders can
never fathom. Our men are not drunks, our women are not easy. It's
just that we Goans, wherever we live, cultivate a certain lifestyle
that others aspire for but can never quite acquire. Let them call us
'sussegad' without quite understanding the nuances of the word. We
will just wink at each other in our laidback way and understand why
they are envious - of something they can never quite comprehend,
imbibe or achieve.




----------
The column above appeared in the Gomantak Times dated 21st ebruary 2008
=====
Mervyn Lobo
2008-02-22 15:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cecil Pinto
We Goans forward Sardaji jokes by the dozen. We stereotype them as dim
witted and loud mouthed. Does that make our Prime Minister Manmohan
Singh any less respected an economist and statesman?
Thank you for this, Cecil.
I read somewhere that a politician makes decisions with winning the next elections as his main objective. A statesman makes decisions with the objective of providing prosperity for the next generation.
Mervyn3.0




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Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-23 07:09:36 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -

I thought this was a poorly written, incoherent piece.
Cecil Pinto has written much better columns before.

The phenomenon of the privileges an insider enjoys
is well-known and universally accepted. For instance,
blacks in America often refer to one another as "Hey
you nigga bradah." But you, a non-black, would do
well to abstain from calling a black man "nigger." Even
in your own family, there are terms of endearment or
derision you may employ on some member that you
would take great offense if uttered by an outsider,
however well-meaning.

On the subject of caricature - it is a healthy habit
to poke fun at oneself now and then, and to not
be too sensitive to every little gob of criticism or
caricature. The outsider is allowed the business of
caricature but the insider's reaction may depend on
the specific circumstance. Frequency, content, and
intent can help determine if it is good-natured ribbing,
honest criticism, or a snide putdown.

But Cecil has missed out on a critical observation
concerning the caricature department and Goa. It
is that the line between the caricatures of Goa and
reality has been blurred beyond repair. To non-Goans,
the caricature itself is the reality of Goa. Look at the
way we Goans are portrayed - as insignificant, nameless,
shadowy figures, always hovering in the background,
(that Remo and Hema are thrown in now and then does
not alter this picture).

Or consider the silly images of Goa one encounters in
articles, magazines, books etc. For this state of affairs,
we have ourselves to blame. True, we are too small a
community that always runs the risk of a wipeout in the
Indian swamp. But we have let ourselves, our land,
our religious and cultural traditions be defined by
others and wholly within the framework of tourism.
Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip.

We have ceded ground by not asserting ourselves
appropriately and widely enough. Many Goans
themselves remain ignorant of the wealth in our
midst. It is absurd that today the "go to" people on
matters Goa and Goan are bhaile who think they know
it all after a few years of domicile here.

In the latest issue of Parmal (Goa Heritage Action Group's
magazine) is reproduced an essay by Robert Newman (*).
Dr. Newman makes very good observations on this
issue of Goa's caricature. The essay has been posted here
earlier. See -

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-news-goanet.org/2007-May/002055.html


(*) Sometime in the 1970s, St Inez - then a quiet, beautiful
village of orchards and fields - was agog at the sight of
this unsual couple - a saree-clad Indian lady and a white
man - strolling its streets. I remember them well (they had
rented an apartment from our family friends). It was
Professor Newman and his wife Sudha. A couple of years
ago, through Frederick Noronha as the intermediary, I had
occasion after almost 30 years to establish contact with him.

Warm regards,


r




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Gilbert Lawrence
2008-02-23 18:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Rajan's post below provides interesting insights into Goans. My response is to his post; and not to the original thread. While Parrikar's response was revealing, a few responses on this thread caricatured the caricature.:=)).

Here are a few thoughts to Rajan's wise commentary. I have selected four pertinent points which are mentioned below:

1. The "caricature itself is the reality of Goa" is not by non-Goans. That "reality" is often held by Goans themselves. Most Goans, and the many posts seen on this web site, present Goa as a caricature. Few know the specifics of what Goa and Goans stand for. For many Diaspora Goans, the native language that is a common bond, in most ethnic groups, is foreign. Goans are loath to concede the reality of progress and fearful about counting our blessings. Yes, there is the wearying intransigence of the behavior of the politicians with repeated elections or threats there off.

2. The above brings me to the second point. The caricature is not for tourism. It is indigenous, because of a lack of knowledge of Goa by Goans. "Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip" happens because most Goans do not know "Goa's fantastic heritage". And the many who quote the heritage, only do so to demagogue it. Hence no surprise, the heritage will look "like a comic strip". So let's not blame the "bhaile" for our shortcomings.

3. Rajan's third point below reinforces the above. We "ceded ground by not asserting ourselves appropriately and widely enough". This is because most of those who occupy the "ground" are Goans, who take pride in being "anti-Goan" on any-and-all issues. Being articulate by being "anti-", with no constructive solutions and comments, leads us 'spinning our wheels'. This occurs on many topics pertaining to Goa. The most recent ones were about caste and religion. The protagonist on 'widespread practice of casteism' could produce no "casteism data" when he maligned Goa's institutions. And his sources / lurkers could not / did not produce any posts (evidence) on this web site, even after he "offered to work on their English" in their posts. Hence there was little factual support to the never-ending discussion of Goa's casteism practices. This while the protagonist repeatedly displayed (as I showed) his own casteist writings and attitudes, including threatening us with his academic IPs (international papers).

4. The "go to" people are the bhaile, to get a feeling if atleast an outsider can make sense of Goan attitudes. As Rajan suggests, the bhaile too are confused. This was best reflected by Nehru's well known statements, when he described Goan attitudes.

Kind Regards, GL

--------------- Rajan P. Parrikar

the line between the caricatures of Goa and reality has been blurred beyond repair. To non-Goans, the caricature itself is the reality of Goa.

But we have let ourselves, our land, our religious and cultural traditions be defined by others and wholly within the framework of tourism. Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip.

We have ceded ground by not asserting ourselves appropriately and widely enough. Many Goans themselves remain ignorant of the wealth in our midst.

It is absurd that today the "go to" people on matters Goa and Goan are bhaile who think they know it all after a few years of domicile here.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-24 08:15:35 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet-
It is true that to free ourselves from the well-worn
caricatures created by "bhaile" from the "Indian
swamp" we have to educate ourselves about our
indigenous culture, which stretches over three
millennia.
My goal is more modest. I would like Goans to first
learn about their more recent past. Say, from the 10th C
onwards to the present will do.
The irony is that in doing so we will find
out how deeply moored we are in the Indian swamp, and
Why is this ironical? This is known to even women
and children. It is nobody's contention that we have
no links with the greater Indian ethos. You seem to be
tilting at windmills here.
We will also find out how the settlements of the
past became the orchards and fields of today, and vice
versa.
We already know that. You have missed the essential
point by a couple of light years. In much of the imperial
or colonial past, one had no control over the (usually)
violent takeover of territory and peoples. Today we have
a degree of control and say in how we wish to run our
land and our lives. The question then becomes: are the
changes taking place under our nose to our greater
good or to our detriment? I have already given my
answers to this and related questions. As evidence in
support of my position, I have pointed to India's
spectacularly dismal record in the past 50 years of
turning everything good to garbage.
The greatest irony of all, however, is that the
caricatured bhitol'le of today love to concoct
burlesque portraits of the bhaile themselves.
You must be fond of the word "irony." The migrant
situation is far too grave for these useless bouts of
back-and-forth logomachy.

Awhile back, you had offered gratuitous advice to
someone on Goanet, asking him to emulate Vivian
D'Souza by spending extended time in Goa. I now
invite you to ingest your own medicine. No need
to spend a year a la Vivian-bab. 2 or 3 months will
suffice. I can give you pointers - if you need them - on
where to go and where to look. Once you have assessed
how the land lies and digested the situation, you and I
can get together to discuss the matter of my caricatures
of migrants/bhaile. You can then evaluate my portrayal,
whether it is real or a figment of my imagination. A
summary of our t?te???t?te can then be posted here
on Goanet.

I urge you to acquire ground level experience with the
current migrant situation in Goa, both at the top and
the bottom end. It will then become that much harder
for you to say silly things in public. Either that or you c
an continue dripping woolly-headed treacle from your
cushy pad 12,000 miles away.
I heard recently that even the extremely bhailo Robert Newman,
who arguably knows more about Goan culture than any
other contemporary bhitol'lo or bhitol'lem, was not
spared in this regard.
Based on my experience with the so-called "India experts"
in America and Europe, I would not rush to award Dr. Newman
so blanket a certificate. It is true that Dr. Newman will know
more about Goan culture than Dr. Helekar (per Helekar-bab's
own implicit admission) but I can confirm only that much
and no more. Inorder to correctly assess Dr. Newman's
knowledge about matters Goan, I will have to interrogate
him myself.

Warm regards,


r





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anil desai
2008-02-24 17:21:49 UTC
Permalink
I read about this in today's Goan papers as well. Can some one on the ground
please inform goanetters whether the stench is emanating just from the
uncollected garbage or whether the decaying congress administration is
contributing to it too?
Dr Anil Desai
Bosco D'Mello
2008-02-25 03:16:17 UTC
Permalink
<Don't understand why the Mayor got involved or what business he had at the
police station on that fateful night?>

RESPONSE: Thank you JoeGoaUK for your photos that say more than a hundred
words in print or on the phone. By paying their taxes, the citizens that
live within the purvey of the Panjim municipality have a contract with the
CCP. By forcing its employees to go on strike, and not collecting garbage,
the CCP has broken this contract. I have a suggestion for the citizens of
Panjim. Take your garbage and dump it at the office and/or home of the
corporator of your ward. If you have leftover garbage, dump it outside the
CCP office and if you still have leftover garbage dump it outside the office
and/or home of your MLA. These are the people you elected to public office
to serve you. Rest assured, serving you is not at the top of their agenda.

<I read about this in today's Goan papers as well. Can some one on the
ground please inform goanetters whether the stench is emanating just from
the uncollected garbage or whether the decaying congress administration is
contributing to it too?>

RESPONSE: 9 months later, the Congress-led Government of Goa should realize
that come what may, they will not be allowed to govern the state. There will
always be some poor sob who will derail every attempt the government of the
day makes that relate to governing of the state and its people. Every
politician of every party has demonstrated time and again that unless they
have a 'kodel', they will not allow anybody else to sit in it peacefully.

As far as our politicians are concerned, personal compulsions far outweigh
the needs of the state of Goa and its people. And I mean politicians at
every level - from the panch, sarpanch.......all the way up to the highest
political office in the state.
From the Navhind Times, Feb 25, 2008: The acting CCP mayor, Mr Yatin Parekh
told 'The Navhind Times' this evening "We hope that good sense prevails in
the government and it agrees to the CCP demand so that we can immediately
start the city cleaning operation," he pointed out.

Is this Yatin for real?? Does he have any "good sense" in himself??
Blackmail the government to do your own job? Well I hope the government does
not give in to his demands and I hope the people of Panjim riot at the CCP
corporators.....and no marks for guessing who Mr Parekh will be calling on
to protect him at that time.

As many have said here, the train has left the station........and it ain't
going anywhere nice!!

- Bosco
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-25 16:21:24 UTC
Permalink
I have several problems with this prelude to a
t?te???t?te from Rajan, as with some of his other
logorrheic missives.

I do not think an interrogation by Dr. Parrikar is
more credible than a certificate from India experts
from anywhere. While a temperate 3-month travelogue
has value beyond its wonderful visual appeal, a serial
xenophobic rant of any duration is counterproductive.
I know of no problem that has been solved by breeding
contempt against underprivileged soft targets. I am
yet to see any level-headed cogent argument for the
proposition that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause
of the destruction of Goa.

By all accounts, both proximal and distal, the
mutilation of the Goan landscape is driven by greed,
particularly of the wealthy and the powerful in the
heart of Goa, and also by an enduring insensitivity of
the native Goan populace to institutionalized
corruption.

Cheers,

Santosh
Awhile back, you had offered gratuitous advice to
someone on Goanet, asking him to emulate Vivian
D'Souza by spending extended time in Goa. I now
invite you to ingest your own medicine. No need
to spend a year a la Vivian-bab. 2 or 3 months will
suffice. I can give you pointers - if you need them
- on
where to go and where to look. Once you have
assessed
how the land lies and digested the situation, you
and I
can get together to discuss the matter of my
caricatures
of migrants/bhaile. You can then evaluate my
portrayal,
whether it is real or a figment of my imagination.
A
summary of our t?te???t?te can then be posted here
on Goanet.
I urge you to acquire ground level experience with
the
current migrant situation in Goa, both at the top
and
the bottom end. It will then become that much
harder
for you to say silly things in public. Either that
or you c
an continue dripping woolly-headed treacle from your
cushy pad 12,000 miles away.
...........................................
Based on my experience with the so-called "India
experts"
in America and Europe, I would not rush to award Dr.
Newman
so blanket a certificate. It is true that Dr.
Newman will know
more about Goan culture than Dr. Helekar (per
Helekar-bab's
own implicit admission) but I can confirm only that
much
and no more. Inorder to correctly assess Dr.
Newman's
knowledge about matters Goan, I will have to
interrogate
him myself.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-26 04:07:36 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
I have several problems with this prelude to a
t?te???t?te from Rajan, as with some of his other
logorrheic missives.
I do not think an interrogation by Dr. Parrikar is
more credible than a certificate from India experts
from anywhere.
That bit was a minor aside in my previous rejoinder
yet Dr. Helekar seems to think it major enough to
advance it to the top of his response. Be that as it
may, opinions and hypotheses must be (preferably)
based on available evidence, which is the foundation
of the scientific method. For an accurate reckoning
of Dr. Newman's knowledge of Goa, I would need to
interrogate him. Past experience has taught me not
to rely on a man's writings alone in the fields of
cultural and social anthropology. Dr. Helekar
appears to subscribe to a different technique,
one relying on hearsay, the number of believers,
reputation etc. At any rate, if Newman floats
Helekar's boat, far be it from me to try and rock it.
Post by Santosh Helekar
While a temperate 3-month travelogue
has value beyond its wonderful visual appeal, a serial
xenophobic rant of any duration is counterproductive.
I know of no problem that has been solved by breeding
contempt against underprivileged soft targets. I am
yet to see any level-headed cogent argument for the
proposition that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause
of the destruction of Goa.
Again, Dr. Helekar bobs and weaves, and misrepresents
the problem. Nobody I know to be sensible has claimed
that bhaile and ghatis are the "root cause" of the
destruction of Goa (if there is a "root cause" at all).
I have made the case several times here that they
represent ONE problem, and in my view, a major one
now. Dr. Helekar can refute or confirm my assessment,
but only if he would first deign to step into the field
laboratory.

For once he should ingest the medicine he has been
administering to others: come and spend time here in
the theatre, see it for yourself, then when you have had
sufficient brush with the reality of Goa today, go ahead
and form your opinion. If you choose to not follow up
on this suggestion, I will understand, and I say that
in all seriousness. We all have constraints - family,
career, job, circumstances etc etc.

As things stand, my "xenophobic rant" has one virtue
over Dr. Helekar's pious cant: it comes out of experience
in the field. Dr. Helekar, on the other hand, seems to
be no more than a long-distance opinionista.
Post by Santosh Helekar
By all accounts, both proximal and distal, the
mutilation of the Goan landscape is driven by greed,
particularly of the wealthy and the powerful in the
heart of Goa, and also by an enduring insensitivity of
the native Goan populace to institutionalized
corruption.
Destruction of landscape is ONE of the major problems
afflicting Goa. There are several others, many of them
interlinked. The platitudes you write above are all too
well known. They add nothing to what we already know.
Insight into the what, why, and, how-can-we-fix-this-
-mess? takes a great deal more than facile pecks at
the keyboard.

Warm regards,


r




____________________________________________________________________________________
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Santosh Helekar
2008-02-28 06:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Parrikar has compounded his problems. His
insinuation of the scientific method in the task of
judging Robert Newman's credentials is absurd. To make
matters worse he conflates the scientific method with
his idiosyncratic fixation on a personal
interrogation. It is well known that in science, or
for that matter, in any other field, including social
and cultural anthropology, the competence of a scholar
is judged by a critical reading of his writings, and
on how well he is regarded and cited by his peers.
This judgment does not hang on the availability of a
report of a one-on-one interrogation administered by
some finicky lay person.

On the issue of Goa, at first Dr. Parrikar appears to
be backtracking from his earlier stance by denying
that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause of Goa's
problems, even though decrying them has been the
centerpiece of his sabbatical campaign in Goa. But
then he clarifies that they are merely one major
problem. The trouble with this, however, is that, once
again, he fails to explain exactly what this problem
is, let alone provide a coherent rationale for it.

Finally, speaking of platitudes, he does not realize
that the worst of these banalities involve playing the
blame game - the relentless reprobation of bhaile,
ghanti and the rest of India for no substantive
reason, which has been going on in Goa since the 60's,
and on Goanet, since its inception. Dr. Parrikar did
not invent these epithets, nor this trite excuse, on
his ongoing epiphanic extended vacation in Goa.

I don't have to go on a prolonged fact-finding
furlough to Goa, or engage in a protracted
interrogathon of an indigene on Goan soil, to know
that there is nothing original, insightful or
sagacious about blaming others for our failings.

Cheers,

Santosh
Be that as it may, opinions and hypotheses must be
(preferably) based on available evidence, which is
the >foundation of the scientific method. For an
accurate >reckoning of Dr. Newman's knowledge of Goa,
I would >need to interrogate him. Past experience has
taught >me not
to rely on a man's writings alone in the fields of
cultural and social anthropology. Dr. Helekar
appears to subscribe to a different technique,
one relying on hearsay, the number of believers,
reputation etc.
....................................
I have made the case several times here that they
represent ONE problem, and in my view, a major one
now. Dr. Helekar can refute or confirm my
assessment,
but only if he would first deign to step into the
field
laboratory.
....................................
As things stand, my "xenophobic rant" has one virtue
over Dr. Helekar's pious cant: it comes out of
experience
in the field. Dr. Helekar, on the other hand, seems
to
be no more than a long-distance opinionista.
........................
The platitudes you write above are all
too
well known. They add nothing to what we already
know.
Insight into the what, why, and,
how-can-we-fix-this-
-mess? takes a great deal more than facile pecks at
the keyboard.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-28 15:08:52 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
On the issue of Goa, at first Dr. Parrikar appears to
be backtracking from his earlier stance by denying
that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause of Goa's
problems, even though decrying them has been the
centerpiece of his sabbatical campaign in Goa. But
then he clarifies that they are merely one major
problem.
There is not even a sliver of backtracking here.
Dr. Helekar could have avoided this embarrassing
boo-boo and spared us the spectacle of his being hoist
by his own petard if only he had a modicum of respect
for the rudiments of the scientific method he has been
touting on this forum. A minor dig into the Goanet
archives would have disabused him of his serious
misperceptions.

Reference #1:
Sept 18, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-September/062284.html
<quote>
"The harebrained tourism policy, the real estate mafia,
the builders, our political leaders, the curse of uncultured
Dilliwallahs seeking an old Portuguese house, the ridiculously
priced apartments targeted at bhailes, the Russian mafia,
drug running along the coastal belt, rave parties, the ghati
menace - all these are interlinked, symbiotic cancers currently
eating away at Goa's soul. For purposes of discussion and
strategy on how to combat the scourge, we have to break
down the problem into smaller manageable portions. Here
I have addressed the ghati menace but this is really a part
of a bigger affliction."
<unquote>

Reference #2:
Dec 14, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-December/066365.html
<quote>
"Outsiders are not the ONLY problem, but they are A problem,
and a major one at that."
<unquote>


Reference #3:
Jan 6, 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-January/067465.html
<quote>
"It has never been anybody's case that the migrants
are the ONLY major problem currently wracking Goa,
as claimed by the Marxist gits. The alarming levels of
migrant presence are A (as in "one") major problem."
<unquote>


Warm regards,


r




____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-28 16:05:43 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
Dr. Parrikar has compounded his problems. His
insinuation of the scientific method in the task of
judging Robert Newman's credentials is absurd. To make
matters worse he conflates the scientific method with
his idiosyncratic fixation on a personal
interrogation. It is well known that in science, or
for that matter, in any other field, including social
and cultural anthropology, the competence of a scholar
is judged by a critical reading of his writings, and
on how well he is regarded and cited by his peers.
This judgment does not hang on the availability of a
report of a one-on-one interrogation administered by
some finicky lay person.
The holes in Dr. Helekar's thinking above are larger
than his zipcode. We were not disputing Dr. Newman's
competence. Dr. Helekar has moved the goalpost now
to suit himself. We were disputing Dr. Helekar's gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan. The surest
way to validate Dr. Helekar's claim is a direct interrogation
of Dr. Newman. That is why a PhD candidate is called
upon to make an oral defense regardless of the number
of peer-reviewed papers, scholarly articles, and books
he may have to his credit. Because writing is only
suggestive, not conclusive. Only a direct oral
interrogation can definitively establish the depth - or
the lack of it - of a man's knowledge of a subject area.

Now then, with my background and expertise, I can
evaluate Dr. Newman's fitness in the field of Goan
music, an important element of culture. To be more
specific, the non-Western, non-Christian elements
of Goan music. For the other major areas of culture,
we can draw on Goan experts from those departments
to take stock of Dr. Newman.

But all this is beside the point. Dr. Helekar was talking
through his hat with that remark about Dr. Newman's
preeminence in matters about Goan culture. Nobody
who has the slightest idea of what the term "culture"
encompasses would have made so silly a remark.

Warm regards,


r





____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-29 16:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Parrikar and his followers (or Drs. Parrikars) are
contricting their goal from Goan culture in general
to non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music,
just to suit their argument. Their claim that
scholarly writing is merely suggestive of knowledge is
bogus. This may be true for platitudes, rants and
Goanet posts, but peer-reviewed writings resulting
from original research, as in the case of Robert
Newman, speaks to his knowledge and expertise in that
field.

Now regarding Dr. Parrikar's claim of being an expert
in Goan music, by his own temperamental criteria, how
can we be sure he is not talking through his hat? Who
has interrogated him on this front? Which Ph.D.
committee has certified him in the specific area of
non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music?

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
The holes in Dr. Helekar's thinking above are larger
than his zipcode. We were not disputing Dr.
Newman's
competence. Dr. Helekar has moved the goalpost now
to suit himself. We were disputing Dr. Helekar's
gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan. The surest
way to validate Dr. Helekar's claim is a direct
interrogation
of Dr. Newman. That is why a PhD candidate is
called
upon to make an oral defense regardless of the
number
of peer-reviewed papers, scholarly articles, and
books
he may have to his credit. Because writing is only
suggestive, not conclusive. Only a direct oral
interrogation can definitively establish the depth -
or
the lack of it - of a man's knowledge of a subject
area.
Now then, with my background and expertise, I can
evaluate Dr. Newman's fitness in the field of Goan
music, an important element of culture. To be more
specific, the non-Western, non-Christian elements
of Goan music. For the other major areas of
culture,
we can draw on Goan experts from those departments
to take stock of Dr. Newman.
But all this is beside the point. Dr. Helekar was
talking
through his hat with that remark about Dr. Newman's
preeminence in matters about Goan culture. Nobody
who has the slightest idea of what the term
"culture"
encompasses would have made so silly a remark.
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-29 22:24:29 UTC
Permalink
In his latest installment Dr. Parrikar confuses the
scientific method with the trivial act of digging
through the Goanet archives.

Reading what he has dug out of the archives again only
confirms my earlier suspicion that his statements on
what he refers to as the ghanti affliction are far
from being coherent, thoughtful and level-headed.

Here are some examples of his wildly inconsistent and
slapdash claims:

1. "Every piece of unthinking rubbish, every concrete
atrocity (in Goa) is an Indian contribution"
2. "Nobody I know to be sensible has claimed that
bhaile and ghatis are the "root cause" of the
destruction of Goa"
3. "the great virtue of Goa (is) in being not-India?
4. "Here I have addressed the ghati menace but this is
really a part of a bigger affliction."
5. "A sea of ghatis and migrants have encroached on
our land, have created civic, social, and law-&-order
issues. The rich Indians have descended on Goa with
their own brand of poison. The tide shows no signs of
abating."
6. "It has never been anybody's case that the migrants
are the ONLY major problem currently wracking Goa, as
claimed by the Marxist gits."
7. "You only have to look at the stinking dumpsters
EVERY Indian city and town has turned into. Do we
want Goa, the final bastion of civilized living in
India, to be conjoined to an identical fate?"
8. "Outsiders are not the ONLY problem, but they are A
problem, and a major one at that."

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
There is not even a sliver of backtracking here.
Dr. Helekar could have avoided this embarrassing
boo-boo and spared us the spectacle of his being
hoist
by his own petard if only he had a modicum of
respect
for the rudiments of the scientific method he has
been
touting on this forum. A minor dig into the Goanet
archives would have disabused him of his serious
misperceptions.
Sept 18, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-September/062284.html
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
.............................................
Dec 14, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-December/066365.html
...............................................
Jan 6, 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-January/067465.html
Venantius Pinto
2008-02-29 18:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Dear Rajan,
I am (after much thought) surprised that you took Santosh Helekar's
statement clinically. In a sense, that you took it to heart. There is
no doubt that people, and we Goans respect you, but I also feel that
one could ask direct questions. "Santosh-bab, do you feel that Dr.
Newman really understands our music (or something to that effect)."
Anyway, it appears that it would have been acceptable had Helekar said
that, Dr. Newman knows more about Goa than "most" Goans, instead of
knowing more than any Goan. In the end the record will speak for
itself.

Man, you guys individually have more brainpower than most people on
this sorry earth, including in Goa. This reminds me of an interesting
Japanese proverb, Sannin yoreba Monju no chie (Three people together
have the wisdom of a Buddha), or the tepid English version, Two heads
are better than one. Monju is the 'saint' of wisdom in Buddhism.

venantius
From: "Rajan P. Parrikar" <parrikar at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan archetypes, stereotypes and caricatures
To Goanet -
We were disputing Dr. Helekar's gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan.
Santosh Helekar
2008-03-01 06:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Venantius Pinto
Anyway, it appears that it would have been
acceptable had Helekar said that, Dr. Newman knows
more about Goa than "most" Goans, instead of
knowing more than any Goan. In the end the record
will speak for itself.
Hi Venantius,

You are being misled about what I said. I submit to
you that my assertion in this regard would be
acceptable without any change. Here is my quote for
your information:

"I heard recently that even the extremely bhailo
Robert Newman, who arguably knows more about Goan
culture than any other contemporary bhitol'lo or
bhitol'lem, was not
spared in this regard."

I am sure you will note the words "arguably" and
"contemporary", and the sense in which the words
"bhitol'lo" and "bhitol'lem" are used.

Cheers,

Santosh
Cecil Pinto
2008-02-22 10:47:14 UTC
Permalink
Goan archetypes, stereotypes and caricatures
They don't get it, they never will.
By Cecil Pinto

Last week NDTV featured an interesting documentary "Where's Sandra?"
This 18 minute film, I quote, 'takes a playful look at the figure of
Sandra from Bandra - part covetous fantasy of the racy Christian girl
from Bombay who works as a secretary, wears a dress and likes to
dance; part condescending stereotype of a dowdy, religious girl from a
minority community.'

One of Mario Miranda's endearing cartoon characters is the sexy
secretary Miss Fonseca. Mario has also caricatured so many Goan
archetypes ? the bhatkar (landlord), the gossipy elderly spinster, the
priest, the fisherwoman, the Hindu gentleman, the drunk etc etc.

Alex Fernandes, Goa's specialist portrait photographer, recently he
had an exhibition of his Tiatriste series. Many tiatristes have taken
archetypical characters and fleshed them out. Some of these existed,
some are creations ? all are caricatures. Succorine's colourfully
clothed buxom fisherwoman, with flowers in her hair and a lot of gold
chains and bangles, is very real. But how real is Cyriaco Dias'
bhatkar? When did you last see a Goan landlord smoking a pipe, wearing
suspenders, and wearing a silk house coat at home? The comedian cook
(cuzinher), the evil step-mother, the witty village belle? Do such
people exist or are they creations of the tiatr genre?

When this writer (always wanted to say that - 'this writer' has such a
formal pompous feel to it!) pokes fun at the Gulfee wife, the
Moidekar, the Toronto Goan on holiday, or the belligerent and greedy
South Goan taxi driver, we don't take it to heart but accept it in the
spirit of entertainment. We are even willing to suspend disbelief
despite gross exaggeration. Similarly we are ever forgiving of Mario
Miranda and the tiatristes. Caricatures are never taken at face value
? when the caricaturist is one of us. But if, God forbid, an
'outsider' pokes fun at our foibles we are immediately up in arms.

In a Bollywood movie should a Goan character be portrayed as a drunk,
or a Catholic girl be shown as being promiscuous, the entire moral
brigade is up in arms. Mona, Robert, Julie, Lily, Anthony, Rosy,
Peter, Maria, Michael? the daru drinkers, vamps, barmaids, cabaret
dancers, bandleaders, henchmen are the characters that get attention
and cause offense. Nobody mentions the hundreds of times Goans and
Christians are portrayed in a non-stereotypical manner. Go watch 'Kal
Ho Na Ho' or 'Black' for example.

Mario Cabral e Sa often writes about the shenanigans of the Goan
mistresses during the Portuguese era. Historian Fatima Gracias
recently re-released book on 'Women in Goa' has reams of interesting
stuff. For example at the end of the sixteenth century, (Page 4) "Life
in the city of Goa was ceaseless rounds of amorous assignments and
sexual delights?". "Albuquerque also complained that Portuguese men
carried women along with them out of Goa or to the ships for casual
sex?" As recent as 1931 the break up of registered prostitutes in Goa
was about 1000 (with Ponda topping the list at 277, Bardez-186,
Salcete-172, Ilhas-119). In 1936 the figures rose considerably
(Hindu-1784, Christian-141, Muslims-9).

Fatima's fascinating book goes on to examine the different categories
of dancing girls (kalavantam / bailaderias) from pre-pubescent girls
to widows, but I am getting distracted. We can accept all this from
Fatima or Mario because they are our fellow Goans. As also the
statistic from me that there are more bars per capita in Goa than in
any state/country in the whole of Asia, Africa or South America.

But when the 16th century Dutch traveller John Huyghen Van Linschoten
writes that "married ladies drugged their husband with datura so they
could have freedom with their lovers", we find this unbelievable. Or
take the 19th century explorer and adventurer Richard Burton who
claims that there were 20 establishments in Shiroda each having 50-60
dancing girls. We can't take this from an outsider. It is documented
also how Goan dancing girls migrated to Bombay and were highly desired
there as prostitutes and mistresses. Depending on who is doing the
documentation, and the narration, we will either believe or rubbish
this.

This acceptance of stereotyping or observations by insiders is true of
every community. On once social occasion I happened to be in the
company of gay friends who were relating the most disgustingly
delicious gay jokes. In a spirited fashion I cracked a vulgar gay joke
myself. Conversation stopped and I was quite the social outcast till
lots more alcohol had been imbibed. The point being it is ok for us to
make fun of ourselves, but if you are an outsider you don't have that
privilege.

The token Muslim in many Hindi movies always wears a sherwani, sports
a long beard and is a poet of sorts ? or in recent times is a Pakistan
trained militant. The Tamilian keeps repeating a thickly accented
"ayyo amma", and the Parsi gentleman is eccentric with an old world
charm. Not vastly different from our tiatr stereotypes.

We Goans forward Sardaji jokes by the dozen. We stereotype them as dim
witted and loud mouthed. Does that make our Prime Minister Manmohan
Singh any less respected an economist and statesman? Do you think
Sardajis care a whit? They know who they are. Why then do we get our
collective imported panties in a knot when a Goan is stereotyped?

Bollywood is about formulae and what works is repeated endlessly.
Brothers separated at birth, romance between people of incompatible
religion/society, revenge for honour, unrealistic song and dance
routines and yes, stereotyped communities. Tiatrs too have their
formulae. Reality is suspended in both.

Let's not shout "Objection mi Lord!" every time a Goan stereotype is
caricatured by outsiders. Let's revel in the thought that we as a
people live life abundantly and that's something the outsiders can
never fathom. Our men are not drunks, our women are not easy. It's
just that we Goans, wherever we live, cultivate a certain lifestyle
that others aspire for but can never quite acquire. Let them call us
'sussegad' without quite understanding the nuances of the word. We
will just wink at each other in our laidback way and understand why
they are envious - of something they can never quite comprehend,
imbibe or achieve.




----------
The column above appeared in the Gomantak Times dated 21st ebruary 2008
=====
Mervyn Lobo
2008-02-22 15:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cecil Pinto
We Goans forward Sardaji jokes by the dozen. We stereotype them as dim
witted and loud mouthed. Does that make our Prime Minister Manmohan
Singh any less respected an economist and statesman?
Thank you for this, Cecil.
I read somewhere that a politician makes decisions with winning the next elections as his main objective. A statesman makes decisions with the objective of providing prosperity for the next generation.
Mervyn3.0




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Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-23 07:09:36 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -

I thought this was a poorly written, incoherent piece.
Cecil Pinto has written much better columns before.

The phenomenon of the privileges an insider enjoys
is well-known and universally accepted. For instance,
blacks in America often refer to one another as "Hey
you nigga bradah." But you, a non-black, would do
well to abstain from calling a black man "nigger." Even
in your own family, there are terms of endearment or
derision you may employ on some member that you
would take great offense if uttered by an outsider,
however well-meaning.

On the subject of caricature - it is a healthy habit
to poke fun at oneself now and then, and to not
be too sensitive to every little gob of criticism or
caricature. The outsider is allowed the business of
caricature but the insider's reaction may depend on
the specific circumstance. Frequency, content, and
intent can help determine if it is good-natured ribbing,
honest criticism, or a snide putdown.

But Cecil has missed out on a critical observation
concerning the caricature department and Goa. It
is that the line between the caricatures of Goa and
reality has been blurred beyond repair. To non-Goans,
the caricature itself is the reality of Goa. Look at the
way we Goans are portrayed - as insignificant, nameless,
shadowy figures, always hovering in the background,
(that Remo and Hema are thrown in now and then does
not alter this picture).

Or consider the silly images of Goa one encounters in
articles, magazines, books etc. For this state of affairs,
we have ourselves to blame. True, we are too small a
community that always runs the risk of a wipeout in the
Indian swamp. But we have let ourselves, our land,
our religious and cultural traditions be defined by
others and wholly within the framework of tourism.
Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip.

We have ceded ground by not asserting ourselves
appropriately and widely enough. Many Goans
themselves remain ignorant of the wealth in our
midst. It is absurd that today the "go to" people on
matters Goa and Goan are bhaile who think they know
it all after a few years of domicile here.

In the latest issue of Parmal (Goa Heritage Action Group's
magazine) is reproduced an essay by Robert Newman (*).
Dr. Newman makes very good observations on this
issue of Goa's caricature. The essay has been posted here
earlier. See -

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-news-goanet.org/2007-May/002055.html


(*) Sometime in the 1970s, St Inez - then a quiet, beautiful
village of orchards and fields - was agog at the sight of
this unsual couple - a saree-clad Indian lady and a white
man - strolling its streets. I remember them well (they had
rented an apartment from our family friends). It was
Professor Newman and his wife Sudha. A couple of years
ago, through Frederick Noronha as the intermediary, I had
occasion after almost 30 years to establish contact with him.

Warm regards,


r




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Gilbert Lawrence
2008-02-23 18:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Rajan's post below provides interesting insights into Goans. My response is to his post; and not to the original thread. While Parrikar's response was revealing, a few responses on this thread caricatured the caricature.:=)).

Here are a few thoughts to Rajan's wise commentary. I have selected four pertinent points which are mentioned below:

1. The "caricature itself is the reality of Goa" is not by non-Goans. That "reality" is often held by Goans themselves. Most Goans, and the many posts seen on this web site, present Goa as a caricature. Few know the specifics of what Goa and Goans stand for. For many Diaspora Goans, the native language that is a common bond, in most ethnic groups, is foreign. Goans are loath to concede the reality of progress and fearful about counting our blessings. Yes, there is the wearying intransigence of the behavior of the politicians with repeated elections or threats there off.

2. The above brings me to the second point. The caricature is not for tourism. It is indigenous, because of a lack of knowledge of Goa by Goans. "Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip" happens because most Goans do not know "Goa's fantastic heritage". And the many who quote the heritage, only do so to demagogue it. Hence no surprise, the heritage will look "like a comic strip". So let's not blame the "bhaile" for our shortcomings.

3. Rajan's third point below reinforces the above. We "ceded ground by not asserting ourselves appropriately and widely enough". This is because most of those who occupy the "ground" are Goans, who take pride in being "anti-Goan" on any-and-all issues. Being articulate by being "anti-", with no constructive solutions and comments, leads us 'spinning our wheels'. This occurs on many topics pertaining to Goa. The most recent ones were about caste and religion. The protagonist on 'widespread practice of casteism' could produce no "casteism data" when he maligned Goa's institutions. And his sources / lurkers could not / did not produce any posts (evidence) on this web site, even after he "offered to work on their English" in their posts. Hence there was little factual support to the never-ending discussion of Goa's casteism practices. This while the protagonist repeatedly displayed (as I showed) his own casteist writings and attitudes, including threatening us with his academic IPs (international papers).

4. The "go to" people are the bhaile, to get a feeling if atleast an outsider can make sense of Goan attitudes. As Rajan suggests, the bhaile too are confused. This was best reflected by Nehru's well known statements, when he described Goan attitudes.

Kind Regards, GL

--------------- Rajan P. Parrikar

the line between the caricatures of Goa and reality has been blurred beyond repair. To non-Goans, the caricature itself is the reality of Goa.

But we have let ourselves, our land, our religious and cultural traditions be defined by others and wholly within the framework of tourism. Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip.

We have ceded ground by not asserting ourselves appropriately and widely enough. Many Goans themselves remain ignorant of the wealth in our midst.

It is absurd that today the "go to" people on matters Goa and Goan are bhaile who think they know it all after a few years of domicile here.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-24 08:15:35 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet-
It is true that to free ourselves from the well-worn
caricatures created by "bhaile" from the "Indian
swamp" we have to educate ourselves about our
indigenous culture, which stretches over three
millennia.
My goal is more modest. I would like Goans to first
learn about their more recent past. Say, from the 10th C
onwards to the present will do.
The irony is that in doing so we will find
out how deeply moored we are in the Indian swamp, and
Why is this ironical? This is known to even women
and children. It is nobody's contention that we have
no links with the greater Indian ethos. You seem to be
tilting at windmills here.
We will also find out how the settlements of the
past became the orchards and fields of today, and vice
versa.
We already know that. You have missed the essential
point by a couple of light years. In much of the imperial
or colonial past, one had no control over the (usually)
violent takeover of territory and peoples. Today we have
a degree of control and say in how we wish to run our
land and our lives. The question then becomes: are the
changes taking place under our nose to our greater
good or to our detriment? I have already given my
answers to this and related questions. As evidence in
support of my position, I have pointed to India's
spectacularly dismal record in the past 50 years of
turning everything good to garbage.
The greatest irony of all, however, is that the
caricatured bhitol'le of today love to concoct
burlesque portraits of the bhaile themselves.
You must be fond of the word "irony." The migrant
situation is far too grave for these useless bouts of
back-and-forth logomachy.

Awhile back, you had offered gratuitous advice to
someone on Goanet, asking him to emulate Vivian
D'Souza by spending extended time in Goa. I now
invite you to ingest your own medicine. No need
to spend a year a la Vivian-bab. 2 or 3 months will
suffice. I can give you pointers - if you need them - on
where to go and where to look. Once you have assessed
how the land lies and digested the situation, you and I
can get together to discuss the matter of my caricatures
of migrants/bhaile. You can then evaluate my portrayal,
whether it is real or a figment of my imagination. A
summary of our t?te???t?te can then be posted here
on Goanet.

I urge you to acquire ground level experience with the
current migrant situation in Goa, both at the top and
the bottom end. It will then become that much harder
for you to say silly things in public. Either that or you c
an continue dripping woolly-headed treacle from your
cushy pad 12,000 miles away.
I heard recently that even the extremely bhailo Robert Newman,
who arguably knows more about Goan culture than any
other contemporary bhitol'lo or bhitol'lem, was not
spared in this regard.
Based on my experience with the so-called "India experts"
in America and Europe, I would not rush to award Dr. Newman
so blanket a certificate. It is true that Dr. Newman will know
more about Goan culture than Dr. Helekar (per Helekar-bab's
own implicit admission) but I can confirm only that much
and no more. Inorder to correctly assess Dr. Newman's
knowledge about matters Goan, I will have to interrogate
him myself.

Warm regards,


r





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anil desai
2008-02-24 17:21:49 UTC
Permalink
I read about this in today's Goan papers as well. Can some one on the ground
please inform goanetters whether the stench is emanating just from the
uncollected garbage or whether the decaying congress administration is
contributing to it too?
Dr Anil Desai
Bosco D'Mello
2008-02-25 03:16:17 UTC
Permalink
<Don't understand why the Mayor got involved or what business he had at the
police station on that fateful night?>

RESPONSE: Thank you JoeGoaUK for your photos that say more than a hundred
words in print or on the phone. By paying their taxes, the citizens that
live within the purvey of the Panjim municipality have a contract with the
CCP. By forcing its employees to go on strike, and not collecting garbage,
the CCP has broken this contract. I have a suggestion for the citizens of
Panjim. Take your garbage and dump it at the office and/or home of the
corporator of your ward. If you have leftover garbage, dump it outside the
CCP office and if you still have leftover garbage dump it outside the office
and/or home of your MLA. These are the people you elected to public office
to serve you. Rest assured, serving you is not at the top of their agenda.

<I read about this in today's Goan papers as well. Can some one on the
ground please inform goanetters whether the stench is emanating just from
the uncollected garbage or whether the decaying congress administration is
contributing to it too?>

RESPONSE: 9 months later, the Congress-led Government of Goa should realize
that come what may, they will not be allowed to govern the state. There will
always be some poor sob who will derail every attempt the government of the
day makes that relate to governing of the state and its people. Every
politician of every party has demonstrated time and again that unless they
have a 'kodel', they will not allow anybody else to sit in it peacefully.

As far as our politicians are concerned, personal compulsions far outweigh
the needs of the state of Goa and its people. And I mean politicians at
every level - from the panch, sarpanch.......all the way up to the highest
political office in the state.
From the Navhind Times, Feb 25, 2008: The acting CCP mayor, Mr Yatin Parekh
told 'The Navhind Times' this evening "We hope that good sense prevails in
the government and it agrees to the CCP demand so that we can immediately
start the city cleaning operation," he pointed out.

Is this Yatin for real?? Does he have any "good sense" in himself??
Blackmail the government to do your own job? Well I hope the government does
not give in to his demands and I hope the people of Panjim riot at the CCP
corporators.....and no marks for guessing who Mr Parekh will be calling on
to protect him at that time.

As many have said here, the train has left the station........and it ain't
going anywhere nice!!

- Bosco
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-25 16:21:24 UTC
Permalink
I have several problems with this prelude to a
t?te???t?te from Rajan, as with some of his other
logorrheic missives.

I do not think an interrogation by Dr. Parrikar is
more credible than a certificate from India experts
from anywhere. While a temperate 3-month travelogue
has value beyond its wonderful visual appeal, a serial
xenophobic rant of any duration is counterproductive.
I know of no problem that has been solved by breeding
contempt against underprivileged soft targets. I am
yet to see any level-headed cogent argument for the
proposition that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause
of the destruction of Goa.

By all accounts, both proximal and distal, the
mutilation of the Goan landscape is driven by greed,
particularly of the wealthy and the powerful in the
heart of Goa, and also by an enduring insensitivity of
the native Goan populace to institutionalized
corruption.

Cheers,

Santosh
Awhile back, you had offered gratuitous advice to
someone on Goanet, asking him to emulate Vivian
D'Souza by spending extended time in Goa. I now
invite you to ingest your own medicine. No need
to spend a year a la Vivian-bab. 2 or 3 months will
suffice. I can give you pointers - if you need them
- on
where to go and where to look. Once you have
assessed
how the land lies and digested the situation, you
and I
can get together to discuss the matter of my
caricatures
of migrants/bhaile. You can then evaluate my
portrayal,
whether it is real or a figment of my imagination.
A
summary of our t?te???t?te can then be posted here
on Goanet.
I urge you to acquire ground level experience with
the
current migrant situation in Goa, both at the top
and
the bottom end. It will then become that much
harder
for you to say silly things in public. Either that
or you c
an continue dripping woolly-headed treacle from your
cushy pad 12,000 miles away.
...........................................
Based on my experience with the so-called "India
experts"
in America and Europe, I would not rush to award Dr.
Newman
so blanket a certificate. It is true that Dr.
Newman will know
more about Goan culture than Dr. Helekar (per
Helekar-bab's
own implicit admission) but I can confirm only that
much
and no more. Inorder to correctly assess Dr.
Newman's
knowledge about matters Goan, I will have to
interrogate
him myself.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-26 04:07:36 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
I have several problems with this prelude to a
t?te???t?te from Rajan, as with some of his other
logorrheic missives.
I do not think an interrogation by Dr. Parrikar is
more credible than a certificate from India experts
from anywhere.
That bit was a minor aside in my previous rejoinder
yet Dr. Helekar seems to think it major enough to
advance it to the top of his response. Be that as it
may, opinions and hypotheses must be (preferably)
based on available evidence, which is the foundation
of the scientific method. For an accurate reckoning
of Dr. Newman's knowledge of Goa, I would need to
interrogate him. Past experience has taught me not
to rely on a man's writings alone in the fields of
cultural and social anthropology. Dr. Helekar
appears to subscribe to a different technique,
one relying on hearsay, the number of believers,
reputation etc. At any rate, if Newman floats
Helekar's boat, far be it from me to try and rock it.
Post by Santosh Helekar
While a temperate 3-month travelogue
has value beyond its wonderful visual appeal, a serial
xenophobic rant of any duration is counterproductive.
I know of no problem that has been solved by breeding
contempt against underprivileged soft targets. I am
yet to see any level-headed cogent argument for the
proposition that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause
of the destruction of Goa.
Again, Dr. Helekar bobs and weaves, and misrepresents
the problem. Nobody I know to be sensible has claimed
that bhaile and ghatis are the "root cause" of the
destruction of Goa (if there is a "root cause" at all).
I have made the case several times here that they
represent ONE problem, and in my view, a major one
now. Dr. Helekar can refute or confirm my assessment,
but only if he would first deign to step into the field
laboratory.

For once he should ingest the medicine he has been
administering to others: come and spend time here in
the theatre, see it for yourself, then when you have had
sufficient brush with the reality of Goa today, go ahead
and form your opinion. If you choose to not follow up
on this suggestion, I will understand, and I say that
in all seriousness. We all have constraints - family,
career, job, circumstances etc etc.

As things stand, my "xenophobic rant" has one virtue
over Dr. Helekar's pious cant: it comes out of experience
in the field. Dr. Helekar, on the other hand, seems to
be no more than a long-distance opinionista.
Post by Santosh Helekar
By all accounts, both proximal and distal, the
mutilation of the Goan landscape is driven by greed,
particularly of the wealthy and the powerful in the
heart of Goa, and also by an enduring insensitivity of
the native Goan populace to institutionalized
corruption.
Destruction of landscape is ONE of the major problems
afflicting Goa. There are several others, many of them
interlinked. The platitudes you write above are all too
well known. They add nothing to what we already know.
Insight into the what, why, and, how-can-we-fix-this-
-mess? takes a great deal more than facile pecks at
the keyboard.

Warm regards,


r




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Santosh Helekar
2008-02-28 06:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Parrikar has compounded his problems. His
insinuation of the scientific method in the task of
judging Robert Newman's credentials is absurd. To make
matters worse he conflates the scientific method with
his idiosyncratic fixation on a personal
interrogation. It is well known that in science, or
for that matter, in any other field, including social
and cultural anthropology, the competence of a scholar
is judged by a critical reading of his writings, and
on how well he is regarded and cited by his peers.
This judgment does not hang on the availability of a
report of a one-on-one interrogation administered by
some finicky lay person.

On the issue of Goa, at first Dr. Parrikar appears to
be backtracking from his earlier stance by denying
that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause of Goa's
problems, even though decrying them has been the
centerpiece of his sabbatical campaign in Goa. But
then he clarifies that they are merely one major
problem. The trouble with this, however, is that, once
again, he fails to explain exactly what this problem
is, let alone provide a coherent rationale for it.

Finally, speaking of platitudes, he does not realize
that the worst of these banalities involve playing the
blame game - the relentless reprobation of bhaile,
ghanti and the rest of India for no substantive
reason, which has been going on in Goa since the 60's,
and on Goanet, since its inception. Dr. Parrikar did
not invent these epithets, nor this trite excuse, on
his ongoing epiphanic extended vacation in Goa.

I don't have to go on a prolonged fact-finding
furlough to Goa, or engage in a protracted
interrogathon of an indigene on Goan soil, to know
that there is nothing original, insightful or
sagacious about blaming others for our failings.

Cheers,

Santosh
Be that as it may, opinions and hypotheses must be
(preferably) based on available evidence, which is
the >foundation of the scientific method. For an
accurate >reckoning of Dr. Newman's knowledge of Goa,
I would >need to interrogate him. Past experience has
taught >me not
to rely on a man's writings alone in the fields of
cultural and social anthropology. Dr. Helekar
appears to subscribe to a different technique,
one relying on hearsay, the number of believers,
reputation etc.
....................................
I have made the case several times here that they
represent ONE problem, and in my view, a major one
now. Dr. Helekar can refute or confirm my
assessment,
but only if he would first deign to step into the
field
laboratory.
....................................
As things stand, my "xenophobic rant" has one virtue
over Dr. Helekar's pious cant: it comes out of
experience
in the field. Dr. Helekar, on the other hand, seems
to
be no more than a long-distance opinionista.
........................
The platitudes you write above are all
too
well known. They add nothing to what we already
know.
Insight into the what, why, and,
how-can-we-fix-this-
-mess? takes a great deal more than facile pecks at
the keyboard.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-28 15:08:52 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
On the issue of Goa, at first Dr. Parrikar appears to
be backtracking from his earlier stance by denying
that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause of Goa's
problems, even though decrying them has been the
centerpiece of his sabbatical campaign in Goa. But
then he clarifies that they are merely one major
problem.
There is not even a sliver of backtracking here.
Dr. Helekar could have avoided this embarrassing
boo-boo and spared us the spectacle of his being hoist
by his own petard if only he had a modicum of respect
for the rudiments of the scientific method he has been
touting on this forum. A minor dig into the Goanet
archives would have disabused him of his serious
misperceptions.

Reference #1:
Sept 18, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-September/062284.html
<quote>
"The harebrained tourism policy, the real estate mafia,
the builders, our political leaders, the curse of uncultured
Dilliwallahs seeking an old Portuguese house, the ridiculously
priced apartments targeted at bhailes, the Russian mafia,
drug running along the coastal belt, rave parties, the ghati
menace - all these are interlinked, symbiotic cancers currently
eating away at Goa's soul. For purposes of discussion and
strategy on how to combat the scourge, we have to break
down the problem into smaller manageable portions. Here
I have addressed the ghati menace but this is really a part
of a bigger affliction."
<unquote>

Reference #2:
Dec 14, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-December/066365.html
<quote>
"Outsiders are not the ONLY problem, but they are A problem,
and a major one at that."
<unquote>


Reference #3:
Jan 6, 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-January/067465.html
<quote>
"It has never been anybody's case that the migrants
are the ONLY major problem currently wracking Goa,
as claimed by the Marxist gits. The alarming levels of
migrant presence are A (as in "one") major problem."
<unquote>


Warm regards,


r




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Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-28 16:05:43 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
Dr. Parrikar has compounded his problems. His
insinuation of the scientific method in the task of
judging Robert Newman's credentials is absurd. To make
matters worse he conflates the scientific method with
his idiosyncratic fixation on a personal
interrogation. It is well known that in science, or
for that matter, in any other field, including social
and cultural anthropology, the competence of a scholar
is judged by a critical reading of his writings, and
on how well he is regarded and cited by his peers.
This judgment does not hang on the availability of a
report of a one-on-one interrogation administered by
some finicky lay person.
The holes in Dr. Helekar's thinking above are larger
than his zipcode. We were not disputing Dr. Newman's
competence. Dr. Helekar has moved the goalpost now
to suit himself. We were disputing Dr. Helekar's gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan. The surest
way to validate Dr. Helekar's claim is a direct interrogation
of Dr. Newman. That is why a PhD candidate is called
upon to make an oral defense regardless of the number
of peer-reviewed papers, scholarly articles, and books
he may have to his credit. Because writing is only
suggestive, not conclusive. Only a direct oral
interrogation can definitively establish the depth - or
the lack of it - of a man's knowledge of a subject area.

Now then, with my background and expertise, I can
evaluate Dr. Newman's fitness in the field of Goan
music, an important element of culture. To be more
specific, the non-Western, non-Christian elements
of Goan music. For the other major areas of culture,
we can draw on Goan experts from those departments
to take stock of Dr. Newman.

But all this is beside the point. Dr. Helekar was talking
through his hat with that remark about Dr. Newman's
preeminence in matters about Goan culture. Nobody
who has the slightest idea of what the term "culture"
encompasses would have made so silly a remark.

Warm regards,


r





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Santosh Helekar
2008-02-29 16:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Parrikar and his followers (or Drs. Parrikars) are
contricting their goal from Goan culture in general
to non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music,
just to suit their argument. Their claim that
scholarly writing is merely suggestive of knowledge is
bogus. This may be true for platitudes, rants and
Goanet posts, but peer-reviewed writings resulting
from original research, as in the case of Robert
Newman, speaks to his knowledge and expertise in that
field.

Now regarding Dr. Parrikar's claim of being an expert
in Goan music, by his own temperamental criteria, how
can we be sure he is not talking through his hat? Who
has interrogated him on this front? Which Ph.D.
committee has certified him in the specific area of
non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music?

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
The holes in Dr. Helekar's thinking above are larger
than his zipcode. We were not disputing Dr.
Newman's
competence. Dr. Helekar has moved the goalpost now
to suit himself. We were disputing Dr. Helekar's
gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan. The surest
way to validate Dr. Helekar's claim is a direct
interrogation
of Dr. Newman. That is why a PhD candidate is
called
upon to make an oral defense regardless of the
number
of peer-reviewed papers, scholarly articles, and
books
he may have to his credit. Because writing is only
suggestive, not conclusive. Only a direct oral
interrogation can definitively establish the depth -
or
the lack of it - of a man's knowledge of a subject
area.
Now then, with my background and expertise, I can
evaluate Dr. Newman's fitness in the field of Goan
music, an important element of culture. To be more
specific, the non-Western, non-Christian elements
of Goan music. For the other major areas of
culture,
we can draw on Goan experts from those departments
to take stock of Dr. Newman.
But all this is beside the point. Dr. Helekar was
talking
through his hat with that remark about Dr. Newman's
preeminence in matters about Goan culture. Nobody
who has the slightest idea of what the term
"culture"
encompasses would have made so silly a remark.
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-29 22:24:29 UTC
Permalink
In his latest installment Dr. Parrikar confuses the
scientific method with the trivial act of digging
through the Goanet archives.

Reading what he has dug out of the archives again only
confirms my earlier suspicion that his statements on
what he refers to as the ghanti affliction are far
from being coherent, thoughtful and level-headed.

Here are some examples of his wildly inconsistent and
slapdash claims:

1. "Every piece of unthinking rubbish, every concrete
atrocity (in Goa) is an Indian contribution"
2. "Nobody I know to be sensible has claimed that
bhaile and ghatis are the "root cause" of the
destruction of Goa"
3. "the great virtue of Goa (is) in being not-India?
4. "Here I have addressed the ghati menace but this is
really a part of a bigger affliction."
5. "A sea of ghatis and migrants have encroached on
our land, have created civic, social, and law-&-order
issues. The rich Indians have descended on Goa with
their own brand of poison. The tide shows no signs of
abating."
6. "It has never been anybody's case that the migrants
are the ONLY major problem currently wracking Goa, as
claimed by the Marxist gits."
7. "You only have to look at the stinking dumpsters
EVERY Indian city and town has turned into. Do we
want Goa, the final bastion of civilized living in
India, to be conjoined to an identical fate?"
8. "Outsiders are not the ONLY problem, but they are A
problem, and a major one at that."

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
There is not even a sliver of backtracking here.
Dr. Helekar could have avoided this embarrassing
boo-boo and spared us the spectacle of his being
hoist
by his own petard if only he had a modicum of
respect
for the rudiments of the scientific method he has
been
touting on this forum. A minor dig into the Goanet
archives would have disabused him of his serious
misperceptions.
Sept 18, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-September/062284.html
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
.............................................
Dec 14, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-December/066365.html
...............................................
Jan 6, 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-January/067465.html
Venantius Pinto
2008-02-29 18:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Dear Rajan,
I am (after much thought) surprised that you took Santosh Helekar's
statement clinically. In a sense, that you took it to heart. There is
no doubt that people, and we Goans respect you, but I also feel that
one could ask direct questions. "Santosh-bab, do you feel that Dr.
Newman really understands our music (or something to that effect)."
Anyway, it appears that it would have been acceptable had Helekar said
that, Dr. Newman knows more about Goa than "most" Goans, instead of
knowing more than any Goan. In the end the record will speak for
itself.

Man, you guys individually have more brainpower than most people on
this sorry earth, including in Goa. This reminds me of an interesting
Japanese proverb, Sannin yoreba Monju no chie (Three people together
have the wisdom of a Buddha), or the tepid English version, Two heads
are better than one. Monju is the 'saint' of wisdom in Buddhism.

venantius
From: "Rajan P. Parrikar" <parrikar at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan archetypes, stereotypes and caricatures
To Goanet -
We were disputing Dr. Helekar's gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan.
Santosh Helekar
2008-03-01 06:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Venantius Pinto
Anyway, it appears that it would have been
acceptable had Helekar said that, Dr. Newman knows
more about Goa than "most" Goans, instead of
knowing more than any Goan. In the end the record
will speak for itself.
Hi Venantius,

You are being misled about what I said. I submit to
you that my assertion in this regard would be
acceptable without any change. Here is my quote for
your information:

"I heard recently that even the extremely bhailo
Robert Newman, who arguably knows more about Goan
culture than any other contemporary bhitol'lo or
bhitol'lem, was not
spared in this regard."

I am sure you will note the words "arguably" and
"contemporary", and the sense in which the words
"bhitol'lo" and "bhitol'lem" are used.

Cheers,

Santosh
Cecil Pinto
2008-02-22 10:47:14 UTC
Permalink
Goan archetypes, stereotypes and caricatures
They don't get it, they never will.
By Cecil Pinto

Last week NDTV featured an interesting documentary "Where's Sandra?"
This 18 minute film, I quote, 'takes a playful look at the figure of
Sandra from Bandra - part covetous fantasy of the racy Christian girl
from Bombay who works as a secretary, wears a dress and likes to
dance; part condescending stereotype of a dowdy, religious girl from a
minority community.'

One of Mario Miranda's endearing cartoon characters is the sexy
secretary Miss Fonseca. Mario has also caricatured so many Goan
archetypes ? the bhatkar (landlord), the gossipy elderly spinster, the
priest, the fisherwoman, the Hindu gentleman, the drunk etc etc.

Alex Fernandes, Goa's specialist portrait photographer, recently he
had an exhibition of his Tiatriste series. Many tiatristes have taken
archetypical characters and fleshed them out. Some of these existed,
some are creations ? all are caricatures. Succorine's colourfully
clothed buxom fisherwoman, with flowers in her hair and a lot of gold
chains and bangles, is very real. But how real is Cyriaco Dias'
bhatkar? When did you last see a Goan landlord smoking a pipe, wearing
suspenders, and wearing a silk house coat at home? The comedian cook
(cuzinher), the evil step-mother, the witty village belle? Do such
people exist or are they creations of the tiatr genre?

When this writer (always wanted to say that - 'this writer' has such a
formal pompous feel to it!) pokes fun at the Gulfee wife, the
Moidekar, the Toronto Goan on holiday, or the belligerent and greedy
South Goan taxi driver, we don't take it to heart but accept it in the
spirit of entertainment. We are even willing to suspend disbelief
despite gross exaggeration. Similarly we are ever forgiving of Mario
Miranda and the tiatristes. Caricatures are never taken at face value
? when the caricaturist is one of us. But if, God forbid, an
'outsider' pokes fun at our foibles we are immediately up in arms.

In a Bollywood movie should a Goan character be portrayed as a drunk,
or a Catholic girl be shown as being promiscuous, the entire moral
brigade is up in arms. Mona, Robert, Julie, Lily, Anthony, Rosy,
Peter, Maria, Michael? the daru drinkers, vamps, barmaids, cabaret
dancers, bandleaders, henchmen are the characters that get attention
and cause offense. Nobody mentions the hundreds of times Goans and
Christians are portrayed in a non-stereotypical manner. Go watch 'Kal
Ho Na Ho' or 'Black' for example.

Mario Cabral e Sa often writes about the shenanigans of the Goan
mistresses during the Portuguese era. Historian Fatima Gracias
recently re-released book on 'Women in Goa' has reams of interesting
stuff. For example at the end of the sixteenth century, (Page 4) "Life
in the city of Goa was ceaseless rounds of amorous assignments and
sexual delights?". "Albuquerque also complained that Portuguese men
carried women along with them out of Goa or to the ships for casual
sex?" As recent as 1931 the break up of registered prostitutes in Goa
was about 1000 (with Ponda topping the list at 277, Bardez-186,
Salcete-172, Ilhas-119). In 1936 the figures rose considerably
(Hindu-1784, Christian-141, Muslims-9).

Fatima's fascinating book goes on to examine the different categories
of dancing girls (kalavantam / bailaderias) from pre-pubescent girls
to widows, but I am getting distracted. We can accept all this from
Fatima or Mario because they are our fellow Goans. As also the
statistic from me that there are more bars per capita in Goa than in
any state/country in the whole of Asia, Africa or South America.

But when the 16th century Dutch traveller John Huyghen Van Linschoten
writes that "married ladies drugged their husband with datura so they
could have freedom with their lovers", we find this unbelievable. Or
take the 19th century explorer and adventurer Richard Burton who
claims that there were 20 establishments in Shiroda each having 50-60
dancing girls. We can't take this from an outsider. It is documented
also how Goan dancing girls migrated to Bombay and were highly desired
there as prostitutes and mistresses. Depending on who is doing the
documentation, and the narration, we will either believe or rubbish
this.

This acceptance of stereotyping or observations by insiders is true of
every community. On once social occasion I happened to be in the
company of gay friends who were relating the most disgustingly
delicious gay jokes. In a spirited fashion I cracked a vulgar gay joke
myself. Conversation stopped and I was quite the social outcast till
lots more alcohol had been imbibed. The point being it is ok for us to
make fun of ourselves, but if you are an outsider you don't have that
privilege.

The token Muslim in many Hindi movies always wears a sherwani, sports
a long beard and is a poet of sorts ? or in recent times is a Pakistan
trained militant. The Tamilian keeps repeating a thickly accented
"ayyo amma", and the Parsi gentleman is eccentric with an old world
charm. Not vastly different from our tiatr stereotypes.

We Goans forward Sardaji jokes by the dozen. We stereotype them as dim
witted and loud mouthed. Does that make our Prime Minister Manmohan
Singh any less respected an economist and statesman? Do you think
Sardajis care a whit? They know who they are. Why then do we get our
collective imported panties in a knot when a Goan is stereotyped?

Bollywood is about formulae and what works is repeated endlessly.
Brothers separated at birth, romance between people of incompatible
religion/society, revenge for honour, unrealistic song and dance
routines and yes, stereotyped communities. Tiatrs too have their
formulae. Reality is suspended in both.

Let's not shout "Objection mi Lord!" every time a Goan stereotype is
caricatured by outsiders. Let's revel in the thought that we as a
people live life abundantly and that's something the outsiders can
never fathom. Our men are not drunks, our women are not easy. It's
just that we Goans, wherever we live, cultivate a certain lifestyle
that others aspire for but can never quite acquire. Let them call us
'sussegad' without quite understanding the nuances of the word. We
will just wink at each other in our laidback way and understand why
they are envious - of something they can never quite comprehend,
imbibe or achieve.




----------
The column above appeared in the Gomantak Times dated 21st ebruary 2008
=====
Mervyn Lobo
2008-02-22 15:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cecil Pinto
We Goans forward Sardaji jokes by the dozen. We stereotype them as dim
witted and loud mouthed. Does that make our Prime Minister Manmohan
Singh any less respected an economist and statesman?
Thank you for this, Cecil.
I read somewhere that a politician makes decisions with winning the next elections as his main objective. A statesman makes decisions with the objective of providing prosperity for the next generation.
Mervyn3.0




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Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-23 07:09:36 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -

I thought this was a poorly written, incoherent piece.
Cecil Pinto has written much better columns before.

The phenomenon of the privileges an insider enjoys
is well-known and universally accepted. For instance,
blacks in America often refer to one another as "Hey
you nigga bradah." But you, a non-black, would do
well to abstain from calling a black man "nigger." Even
in your own family, there are terms of endearment or
derision you may employ on some member that you
would take great offense if uttered by an outsider,
however well-meaning.

On the subject of caricature - it is a healthy habit
to poke fun at oneself now and then, and to not
be too sensitive to every little gob of criticism or
caricature. The outsider is allowed the business of
caricature but the insider's reaction may depend on
the specific circumstance. Frequency, content, and
intent can help determine if it is good-natured ribbing,
honest criticism, or a snide putdown.

But Cecil has missed out on a critical observation
concerning the caricature department and Goa. It
is that the line between the caricatures of Goa and
reality has been blurred beyond repair. To non-Goans,
the caricature itself is the reality of Goa. Look at the
way we Goans are portrayed - as insignificant, nameless,
shadowy figures, always hovering in the background,
(that Remo and Hema are thrown in now and then does
not alter this picture).

Or consider the silly images of Goa one encounters in
articles, magazines, books etc. For this state of affairs,
we have ourselves to blame. True, we are too small a
community that always runs the risk of a wipeout in the
Indian swamp. But we have let ourselves, our land,
our religious and cultural traditions be defined by
others and wholly within the framework of tourism.
Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip.

We have ceded ground by not asserting ourselves
appropriately and widely enough. Many Goans
themselves remain ignorant of the wealth in our
midst. It is absurd that today the "go to" people on
matters Goa and Goan are bhaile who think they know
it all after a few years of domicile here.

In the latest issue of Parmal (Goa Heritage Action Group's
magazine) is reproduced an essay by Robert Newman (*).
Dr. Newman makes very good observations on this
issue of Goa's caricature. The essay has been posted here
earlier. See -

http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-news-goanet.org/2007-May/002055.html


(*) Sometime in the 1970s, St Inez - then a quiet, beautiful
village of orchards and fields - was agog at the sight of
this unsual couple - a saree-clad Indian lady and a white
man - strolling its streets. I remember them well (they had
rented an apartment from our family friends). It was
Professor Newman and his wife Sudha. A couple of years
ago, through Frederick Noronha as the intermediary, I had
occasion after almost 30 years to establish contact with him.

Warm regards,


r




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Gilbert Lawrence
2008-02-23 18:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Rajan's post below provides interesting insights into Goans. My response is to his post; and not to the original thread. While Parrikar's response was revealing, a few responses on this thread caricatured the caricature.:=)).

Here are a few thoughts to Rajan's wise commentary. I have selected four pertinent points which are mentioned below:

1. The "caricature itself is the reality of Goa" is not by non-Goans. That "reality" is often held by Goans themselves. Most Goans, and the many posts seen on this web site, present Goa as a caricature. Few know the specifics of what Goa and Goans stand for. For many Diaspora Goans, the native language that is a common bond, in most ethnic groups, is foreign. Goans are loath to concede the reality of progress and fearful about counting our blessings. Yes, there is the wearying intransigence of the behavior of the politicians with repeated elections or threats there off.

2. The above brings me to the second point. The caricature is not for tourism. It is indigenous, because of a lack of knowledge of Goa by Goans. "Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip" happens because most Goans do not know "Goa's fantastic heritage". And the many who quote the heritage, only do so to demagogue it. Hence no surprise, the heritage will look "like a comic strip". So let's not blame the "bhaile" for our shortcomings.

3. Rajan's third point below reinforces the above. We "ceded ground by not asserting ourselves appropriately and widely enough". This is because most of those who occupy the "ground" are Goans, who take pride in being "anti-Goan" on any-and-all issues. Being articulate by being "anti-", with no constructive solutions and comments, leads us 'spinning our wheels'. This occurs on many topics pertaining to Goa. The most recent ones were about caste and religion. The protagonist on 'widespread practice of casteism' could produce no "casteism data" when he maligned Goa's institutions. And his sources / lurkers could not / did not produce any posts (evidence) on this web site, even after he "offered to work on their English" in their posts. Hence there was little factual support to the never-ending discussion of Goa's casteism practices. This while the protagonist repeatedly displayed (as I showed) his own casteist writings and attitudes, including threatening us with his academic IPs (international papers).

4. The "go to" people are the bhaile, to get a feeling if atleast an outsider can make sense of Goan attitudes. As Rajan suggests, the bhaile too are confused. This was best reflected by Nehru's well known statements, when he described Goan attitudes.

Kind Regards, GL

--------------- Rajan P. Parrikar

the line between the caricatures of Goa and reality has been blurred beyond repair. To non-Goans, the caricature itself is the reality of Goa.

But we have let ourselves, our land, our religious and cultural traditions be defined by others and wholly within the framework of tourism. Goa's fantastic heritage is read like a comic strip.

We have ceded ground by not asserting ourselves appropriately and widely enough. Many Goans themselves remain ignorant of the wealth in our midst.

It is absurd that today the "go to" people on matters Goa and Goan are bhaile who think they know it all after a few years of domicile here.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-24 08:15:35 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet-
It is true that to free ourselves from the well-worn
caricatures created by "bhaile" from the "Indian
swamp" we have to educate ourselves about our
indigenous culture, which stretches over three
millennia.
My goal is more modest. I would like Goans to first
learn about their more recent past. Say, from the 10th C
onwards to the present will do.
The irony is that in doing so we will find
out how deeply moored we are in the Indian swamp, and
Why is this ironical? This is known to even women
and children. It is nobody's contention that we have
no links with the greater Indian ethos. You seem to be
tilting at windmills here.
We will also find out how the settlements of the
past became the orchards and fields of today, and vice
versa.
We already know that. You have missed the essential
point by a couple of light years. In much of the imperial
or colonial past, one had no control over the (usually)
violent takeover of territory and peoples. Today we have
a degree of control and say in how we wish to run our
land and our lives. The question then becomes: are the
changes taking place under our nose to our greater
good or to our detriment? I have already given my
answers to this and related questions. As evidence in
support of my position, I have pointed to India's
spectacularly dismal record in the past 50 years of
turning everything good to garbage.
The greatest irony of all, however, is that the
caricatured bhitol'le of today love to concoct
burlesque portraits of the bhaile themselves.
You must be fond of the word "irony." The migrant
situation is far too grave for these useless bouts of
back-and-forth logomachy.

Awhile back, you had offered gratuitous advice to
someone on Goanet, asking him to emulate Vivian
D'Souza by spending extended time in Goa. I now
invite you to ingest your own medicine. No need
to spend a year a la Vivian-bab. 2 or 3 months will
suffice. I can give you pointers - if you need them - on
where to go and where to look. Once you have assessed
how the land lies and digested the situation, you and I
can get together to discuss the matter of my caricatures
of migrants/bhaile. You can then evaluate my portrayal,
whether it is real or a figment of my imagination. A
summary of our t?te???t?te can then be posted here
on Goanet.

I urge you to acquire ground level experience with the
current migrant situation in Goa, both at the top and
the bottom end. It will then become that much harder
for you to say silly things in public. Either that or you c
an continue dripping woolly-headed treacle from your
cushy pad 12,000 miles away.
I heard recently that even the extremely bhailo Robert Newman,
who arguably knows more about Goan culture than any
other contemporary bhitol'lo or bhitol'lem, was not
spared in this regard.
Based on my experience with the so-called "India experts"
in America and Europe, I would not rush to award Dr. Newman
so blanket a certificate. It is true that Dr. Newman will know
more about Goan culture than Dr. Helekar (per Helekar-bab's
own implicit admission) but I can confirm only that much
and no more. Inorder to correctly assess Dr. Newman's
knowledge about matters Goan, I will have to interrogate
him myself.

Warm regards,


r





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anil desai
2008-02-24 17:21:49 UTC
Permalink
I read about this in today's Goan papers as well. Can some one on the ground
please inform goanetters whether the stench is emanating just from the
uncollected garbage or whether the decaying congress administration is
contributing to it too?
Dr Anil Desai
Bosco D'Mello
2008-02-25 03:16:17 UTC
Permalink
<Don't understand why the Mayor got involved or what business he had at the
police station on that fateful night?>

RESPONSE: Thank you JoeGoaUK for your photos that say more than a hundred
words in print or on the phone. By paying their taxes, the citizens that
live within the purvey of the Panjim municipality have a contract with the
CCP. By forcing its employees to go on strike, and not collecting garbage,
the CCP has broken this contract. I have a suggestion for the citizens of
Panjim. Take your garbage and dump it at the office and/or home of the
corporator of your ward. If you have leftover garbage, dump it outside the
CCP office and if you still have leftover garbage dump it outside the office
and/or home of your MLA. These are the people you elected to public office
to serve you. Rest assured, serving you is not at the top of their agenda.

<I read about this in today's Goan papers as well. Can some one on the
ground please inform goanetters whether the stench is emanating just from
the uncollected garbage or whether the decaying congress administration is
contributing to it too?>

RESPONSE: 9 months later, the Congress-led Government of Goa should realize
that come what may, they will not be allowed to govern the state. There will
always be some poor sob who will derail every attempt the government of the
day makes that relate to governing of the state and its people. Every
politician of every party has demonstrated time and again that unless they
have a 'kodel', they will not allow anybody else to sit in it peacefully.

As far as our politicians are concerned, personal compulsions far outweigh
the needs of the state of Goa and its people. And I mean politicians at
every level - from the panch, sarpanch.......all the way up to the highest
political office in the state.
From the Navhind Times, Feb 25, 2008: The acting CCP mayor, Mr Yatin Parekh
told 'The Navhind Times' this evening "We hope that good sense prevails in
the government and it agrees to the CCP demand so that we can immediately
start the city cleaning operation," he pointed out.

Is this Yatin for real?? Does he have any "good sense" in himself??
Blackmail the government to do your own job? Well I hope the government does
not give in to his demands and I hope the people of Panjim riot at the CCP
corporators.....and no marks for guessing who Mr Parekh will be calling on
to protect him at that time.

As many have said here, the train has left the station........and it ain't
going anywhere nice!!

- Bosco
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-25 16:21:24 UTC
Permalink
I have several problems with this prelude to a
t?te???t?te from Rajan, as with some of his other
logorrheic missives.

I do not think an interrogation by Dr. Parrikar is
more credible than a certificate from India experts
from anywhere. While a temperate 3-month travelogue
has value beyond its wonderful visual appeal, a serial
xenophobic rant of any duration is counterproductive.
I know of no problem that has been solved by breeding
contempt against underprivileged soft targets. I am
yet to see any level-headed cogent argument for the
proposition that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause
of the destruction of Goa.

By all accounts, both proximal and distal, the
mutilation of the Goan landscape is driven by greed,
particularly of the wealthy and the powerful in the
heart of Goa, and also by an enduring insensitivity of
the native Goan populace to institutionalized
corruption.

Cheers,

Santosh
Awhile back, you had offered gratuitous advice to
someone on Goanet, asking him to emulate Vivian
D'Souza by spending extended time in Goa. I now
invite you to ingest your own medicine. No need
to spend a year a la Vivian-bab. 2 or 3 months will
suffice. I can give you pointers - if you need them
- on
where to go and where to look. Once you have
assessed
how the land lies and digested the situation, you
and I
can get together to discuss the matter of my
caricatures
of migrants/bhaile. You can then evaluate my
portrayal,
whether it is real or a figment of my imagination.
A
summary of our t?te???t?te can then be posted here
on Goanet.
I urge you to acquire ground level experience with
the
current migrant situation in Goa, both at the top
and
the bottom end. It will then become that much
harder
for you to say silly things in public. Either that
or you c
an continue dripping woolly-headed treacle from your
cushy pad 12,000 miles away.
...........................................
Based on my experience with the so-called "India
experts"
in America and Europe, I would not rush to award Dr.
Newman
so blanket a certificate. It is true that Dr.
Newman will know
more about Goan culture than Dr. Helekar (per
Helekar-bab's
own implicit admission) but I can confirm only that
much
and no more. Inorder to correctly assess Dr.
Newman's
knowledge about matters Goan, I will have to
interrogate
him myself.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-26 04:07:36 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
I have several problems with this prelude to a
t?te???t?te from Rajan, as with some of his other
logorrheic missives.
I do not think an interrogation by Dr. Parrikar is
more credible than a certificate from India experts
from anywhere.
That bit was a minor aside in my previous rejoinder
yet Dr. Helekar seems to think it major enough to
advance it to the top of his response. Be that as it
may, opinions and hypotheses must be (preferably)
based on available evidence, which is the foundation
of the scientific method. For an accurate reckoning
of Dr. Newman's knowledge of Goa, I would need to
interrogate him. Past experience has taught me not
to rely on a man's writings alone in the fields of
cultural and social anthropology. Dr. Helekar
appears to subscribe to a different technique,
one relying on hearsay, the number of believers,
reputation etc. At any rate, if Newman floats
Helekar's boat, far be it from me to try and rock it.
Post by Santosh Helekar
While a temperate 3-month travelogue
has value beyond its wonderful visual appeal, a serial
xenophobic rant of any duration is counterproductive.
I know of no problem that has been solved by breeding
contempt against underprivileged soft targets. I am
yet to see any level-headed cogent argument for the
proposition that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause
of the destruction of Goa.
Again, Dr. Helekar bobs and weaves, and misrepresents
the problem. Nobody I know to be sensible has claimed
that bhaile and ghatis are the "root cause" of the
destruction of Goa (if there is a "root cause" at all).
I have made the case several times here that they
represent ONE problem, and in my view, a major one
now. Dr. Helekar can refute or confirm my assessment,
but only if he would first deign to step into the field
laboratory.

For once he should ingest the medicine he has been
administering to others: come and spend time here in
the theatre, see it for yourself, then when you have had
sufficient brush with the reality of Goa today, go ahead
and form your opinion. If you choose to not follow up
on this suggestion, I will understand, and I say that
in all seriousness. We all have constraints - family,
career, job, circumstances etc etc.

As things stand, my "xenophobic rant" has one virtue
over Dr. Helekar's pious cant: it comes out of experience
in the field. Dr. Helekar, on the other hand, seems to
be no more than a long-distance opinionista.
Post by Santosh Helekar
By all accounts, both proximal and distal, the
mutilation of the Goan landscape is driven by greed,
particularly of the wealthy and the powerful in the
heart of Goa, and also by an enduring insensitivity of
the native Goan populace to institutionalized
corruption.
Destruction of landscape is ONE of the major problems
afflicting Goa. There are several others, many of them
interlinked. The platitudes you write above are all too
well known. They add nothing to what we already know.
Insight into the what, why, and, how-can-we-fix-this-
-mess? takes a great deal more than facile pecks at
the keyboard.

Warm regards,


r




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Santosh Helekar
2008-02-28 06:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Parrikar has compounded his problems. His
insinuation of the scientific method in the task of
judging Robert Newman's credentials is absurd. To make
matters worse he conflates the scientific method with
his idiosyncratic fixation on a personal
interrogation. It is well known that in science, or
for that matter, in any other field, including social
and cultural anthropology, the competence of a scholar
is judged by a critical reading of his writings, and
on how well he is regarded and cited by his peers.
This judgment does not hang on the availability of a
report of a one-on-one interrogation administered by
some finicky lay person.

On the issue of Goa, at first Dr. Parrikar appears to
be backtracking from his earlier stance by denying
that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause of Goa's
problems, even though decrying them has been the
centerpiece of his sabbatical campaign in Goa. But
then he clarifies that they are merely one major
problem. The trouble with this, however, is that, once
again, he fails to explain exactly what this problem
is, let alone provide a coherent rationale for it.

Finally, speaking of platitudes, he does not realize
that the worst of these banalities involve playing the
blame game - the relentless reprobation of bhaile,
ghanti and the rest of India for no substantive
reason, which has been going on in Goa since the 60's,
and on Goanet, since its inception. Dr. Parrikar did
not invent these epithets, nor this trite excuse, on
his ongoing epiphanic extended vacation in Goa.

I don't have to go on a prolonged fact-finding
furlough to Goa, or engage in a protracted
interrogathon of an indigene on Goan soil, to know
that there is nothing original, insightful or
sagacious about blaming others for our failings.

Cheers,

Santosh
Be that as it may, opinions and hypotheses must be
(preferably) based on available evidence, which is
the >foundation of the scientific method. For an
accurate >reckoning of Dr. Newman's knowledge of Goa,
I would >need to interrogate him. Past experience has
taught >me not
to rely on a man's writings alone in the fields of
cultural and social anthropology. Dr. Helekar
appears to subscribe to a different technique,
one relying on hearsay, the number of believers,
reputation etc.
....................................
I have made the case several times here that they
represent ONE problem, and in my view, a major one
now. Dr. Helekar can refute or confirm my
assessment,
but only if he would first deign to step into the
field
laboratory.
....................................
As things stand, my "xenophobic rant" has one virtue
over Dr. Helekar's pious cant: it comes out of
experience
in the field. Dr. Helekar, on the other hand, seems
to
be no more than a long-distance opinionista.
........................
The platitudes you write above are all
too
well known. They add nothing to what we already
know.
Insight into the what, why, and,
how-can-we-fix-this-
-mess? takes a great deal more than facile pecks at
the keyboard.
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-28 15:08:52 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
On the issue of Goa, at first Dr. Parrikar appears to
be backtracking from his earlier stance by denying
that bhaile and ghanti are the root cause of Goa's
problems, even though decrying them has been the
centerpiece of his sabbatical campaign in Goa. But
then he clarifies that they are merely one major
problem.
There is not even a sliver of backtracking here.
Dr. Helekar could have avoided this embarrassing
boo-boo and spared us the spectacle of his being hoist
by his own petard if only he had a modicum of respect
for the rudiments of the scientific method he has been
touting on this forum. A minor dig into the Goanet
archives would have disabused him of his serious
misperceptions.

Reference #1:
Sept 18, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-September/062284.html
<quote>
"The harebrained tourism policy, the real estate mafia,
the builders, our political leaders, the curse of uncultured
Dilliwallahs seeking an old Portuguese house, the ridiculously
priced apartments targeted at bhailes, the Russian mafia,
drug running along the coastal belt, rave parties, the ghati
menace - all these are interlinked, symbiotic cancers currently
eating away at Goa's soul. For purposes of discussion and
strategy on how to combat the scourge, we have to break
down the problem into smaller manageable portions. Here
I have addressed the ghati menace but this is really a part
of a bigger affliction."
<unquote>

Reference #2:
Dec 14, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-December/066365.html
<quote>
"Outsiders are not the ONLY problem, but they are A problem,
and a major one at that."
<unquote>


Reference #3:
Jan 6, 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-January/067465.html
<quote>
"It has never been anybody's case that the migrants
are the ONLY major problem currently wracking Goa,
as claimed by the Marxist gits. The alarming levels of
migrant presence are A (as in "one") major problem."
<unquote>


Warm regards,


r




____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Rajan P. Parrikar
2008-02-28 16:05:43 UTC
Permalink
To Goanet -
Post by Santosh Helekar
Dr. Parrikar has compounded his problems. His
insinuation of the scientific method in the task of
judging Robert Newman's credentials is absurd. To make
matters worse he conflates the scientific method with
his idiosyncratic fixation on a personal
interrogation. It is well known that in science, or
for that matter, in any other field, including social
and cultural anthropology, the competence of a scholar
is judged by a critical reading of his writings, and
on how well he is regarded and cited by his peers.
This judgment does not hang on the availability of a
report of a one-on-one interrogation administered by
some finicky lay person.
The holes in Dr. Helekar's thinking above are larger
than his zipcode. We were not disputing Dr. Newman's
competence. Dr. Helekar has moved the goalpost now
to suit himself. We were disputing Dr. Helekar's gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan. The surest
way to validate Dr. Helekar's claim is a direct interrogation
of Dr. Newman. That is why a PhD candidate is called
upon to make an oral defense regardless of the number
of peer-reviewed papers, scholarly articles, and books
he may have to his credit. Because writing is only
suggestive, not conclusive. Only a direct oral
interrogation can definitively establish the depth - or
the lack of it - of a man's knowledge of a subject area.

Now then, with my background and expertise, I can
evaluate Dr. Newman's fitness in the field of Goan
music, an important element of culture. To be more
specific, the non-Western, non-Christian elements
of Goan music. For the other major areas of culture,
we can draw on Goan experts from those departments
to take stock of Dr. Newman.

But all this is beside the point. Dr. Helekar was talking
through his hat with that remark about Dr. Newman's
preeminence in matters about Goan culture. Nobody
who has the slightest idea of what the term "culture"
encompasses would have made so silly a remark.

Warm regards,


r





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Santosh Helekar
2008-02-29 16:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Parrikar and his followers (or Drs. Parrikars) are
contricting their goal from Goan culture in general
to non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music,
just to suit their argument. Their claim that
scholarly writing is merely suggestive of knowledge is
bogus. This may be true for platitudes, rants and
Goanet posts, but peer-reviewed writings resulting
from original research, as in the case of Robert
Newman, speaks to his knowledge and expertise in that
field.

Now regarding Dr. Parrikar's claim of being an expert
in Goan music, by his own temperamental criteria, how
can we be sure he is not talking through his hat? Who
has interrogated him on this front? Which Ph.D.
committee has certified him in the specific area of
non-Western, non-Christian elements of Goan music?

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
The holes in Dr. Helekar's thinking above are larger
than his zipcode. We were not disputing Dr.
Newman's
competence. Dr. Helekar has moved the goalpost now
to suit himself. We were disputing Dr. Helekar's
gushing
endorsement of Dr. Newman as someone who knows
more about "Goan culture" than any Goan. The surest
way to validate Dr. Helekar's claim is a direct
interrogation
of Dr. Newman. That is why a PhD candidate is
called
upon to make an oral defense regardless of the
number
of peer-reviewed papers, scholarly articles, and
books
he may have to his credit. Because writing is only
suggestive, not conclusive. Only a direct oral
interrogation can definitively establish the depth -
or
the lack of it - of a man's knowledge of a subject
area.
Now then, with my background and expertise, I can
evaluate Dr. Newman's fitness in the field of Goan
music, an important element of culture. To be more
specific, the non-Western, non-Christian elements
of Goan music. For the other major areas of
culture,
we can draw on Goan experts from those departments
to take stock of Dr. Newman.
But all this is beside the point. Dr. Helekar was
talking
through his hat with that remark about Dr. Newman's
preeminence in matters about Goan culture. Nobody
who has the slightest idea of what the term
"culture"
encompasses would have made so silly a remark.
Santosh Helekar
2008-02-29 22:24:29 UTC
Permalink
In his latest installment Dr. Parrikar confuses the
scientific method with the trivial act of digging
through the Goanet archives.

Reading what he has dug out of the archives again only
confirms my earlier suspicion that his statements on
what he refers to as the ghanti affliction are far
from being coherent, thoughtful and level-headed.

Here are some examples of his wildly inconsistent and
slapdash claims:

1. "Every piece of unthinking rubbish, every concrete
atrocity (in Goa) is an Indian contribution"
2. "Nobody I know to be sensible has claimed that
bhaile and ghatis are the "root cause" of the
destruction of Goa"
3. "the great virtue of Goa (is) in being not-India?
4. "Here I have addressed the ghati menace but this is
really a part of a bigger affliction."
5. "A sea of ghatis and migrants have encroached on
our land, have created civic, social, and law-&-order
issues. The rich Indians have descended on Goa with
their own brand of poison. The tide shows no signs of
abating."
6. "It has never been anybody's case that the migrants
are the ONLY major problem currently wracking Goa, as
claimed by the Marxist gits."
7. "You only have to look at the stinking dumpsters
EVERY Indian city and town has turned into. Do we
want Goa, the final bastion of civilized living in
India, to be conjoined to an identical fate?"
8. "Outsiders are not the ONLY problem, but they are A
problem, and a major one at that."

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
There is not even a sliver of backtracking here.
Dr. Helekar could have avoided this embarrassing
boo-boo and spared us the spectacle of his being
hoist
by his own petard if only he had a modicum of
respect
for the rudiments of the scientific method he has
been
touting on this forum. A minor dig into the Goanet
archives would have disabused him of his serious
misperceptions.
Sept 18, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-September/062284.html
Post by Rajan P. Parrikar
.............................................
Dec 14, 2007
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2007-December/066365.html
...............................................
Jan 6, 2008
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-January/067465.html
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