Discussion:
Are Goans Homophobe?
(too old to reply)
Roland Francis
2006-09-17 12:49:50 UTC
Permalink
With regard to Kevin's link to the Lutheran website/debate on
homsexuality acceptance and the matter of celibacy (it truly is a mind
provoking one), I ask Goanet:

As Goans, what is our outlook towards homosexuality.
How would we treat one of our children who is homsexual or lesbian.
Would any Catholic or Hindu priest solemnize his (or her) marriage in
or outside a Church or Temple.
Would there be violence perpetrated towards a known homosexual however
responsibly he or she maintained a single relationship.
Would he be able to run for political office and more importantly
would he be elected, not taking into account his sexual preference.
Would he be invited to a party or family gathering and not made to
feel he is a deviant.
Would he be subjected to snide or insulting remarks wherever he goes.
Would it take more than the usual extraordinary courage to come out of
the closet in Goa.

I would like to know how these dynamics would actually happen in
today's Goa. And I would be more than happy to get perspective from
the straights on Goanet as well as the gays. If there are no gays here
(and I don't see why not) would someone please get some responsible,
expressive gays or lesbians to give us their views also.

I know there is no single collective Goan reaction but the diversity
of views would indicate some common threads as to our outlook.
saligao
2006-09-18 03:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Roland,

Thank you for broaching this delicate topic which is currently being
challenged in India. Canada has followed the lead of a few Scandanavian
countries ( http://marriage.about.com/cs/samesexmarriage/a/samesex.htm
....much to the chagrin of Benedict16 http://tinyurl.com/nt9vb ) legalizing
same-sex marriage at a federal level and thereby acknowledging homosexual
rights at the highest level. Convincing homophobic religionists of it's
validity is another hurdle altogether.

This is what a recent article had to say... "It took centuries of struggle
against theocracies of many kinds to establish the modern separation of
church and state. Most lay Catholics heaved a sigh of relief that papal
delusions of grandeur seemed to have finally been set aside with the Second
Vatican Council of 1962-65." http://tinyurl.com/ld7s2

And from the Indian Press...
"In an open letter written by the author Vikram Seth, many activists have
asked for the removal of Section 377 in the Indian penal code which they
insist is entirely obsolete."
http://tinyurl.com/oyaem

Which was picked up by the New York Times....
"As with most things in this country, whatever generalizations one can draw
about attitudes towards homosexuality, its opposite is also just as likely
to be true.
And yet, stigma and scorn prevail. Indian newspapers earlier this year, for
instance, carried the story of a woman who attempted suicide after being
forcibly separated from her lover, whom she said she had married in a Hindu
temple."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/16/world/asia/16india.html

The Open Letter and signatories can be read at http://www.openletter377.com/

Changing the Indian Penal Code will probably be much easier than changing
peoples' attitudes. I would be interested in the response to your pointed
query. From my perspective and understanding of the completely biological
origins of sexual orientation, discrimination of the same would be akin to
discriminating against an individual based on height or eye colour. Just
today, in the homily delivered at our church (yes, I do attend services, if
only to gather evidence ;-) the priest accused the congregation of apathy
towards the fight against same-sex marriage being the main reason for its
passage into law in Canada. I guess he hasn't realized that hate mongering
is a crime in Canada too.

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.

---------------
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 08:49:50 -0400
From: "Roland Francis" <roland.francis at gmail.com>
Subject: [Goanet] Are Goans Homophobe?

With regard to Kevin's link to the Lutheran website/debate on
homsexuality acceptance and the matter of celibacy (it truly is a mind
provoking one), I ask Goanet:

<...>

I would like to know how these dynamics would actually happen in
today's Goa. And I would be more than happy to get perspective from
the straights on Goanet as well as the gays. If there are no gays here
(and I don't see why not) would someone please get some responsible,
expressive gays or lesbians to give us their views also.

I know there is no single collective Goan reaction but the diversity
of views would indicate some common threads as to our outlook.



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Carvalho
2006-09-18 05:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Dear Roland,

An interesting question indeed. Sometime ago, I was
mulling over whether Goans are predominantly
conservative or liberal as per the loosely used
meaning of the terms.

Goa itself in bifurcating into two different
world-views. There is North Goa and then there is
South Goa, there are the central parts of Goa
connected by the NH17 and then there are the
hinterlands and far-flung talukas like Sanguem and
Canacona, which are quite unique in their perspective.
Within these two worlds exist difference formed and
defined by exposure to media, external influences,
education, city-life and parochialism.

Other than Wendell Rodrigues, I don't think there are
too many homosexual men or women leading openly gay
lifestyles. I think Wendell is courageous to take on
this flame torch on behalf of his tribe.

I don't even know if a word for homosexuality exists
in Konkani. My parents and in-laws refer to men who
might be gay using the Portuguese word "effeminade".
So in response to your question, in my experience
Goans are still not very exposed to it.

Selma
------------------------------------
Post by Roland Francis
With regard to Kevin's link to the Lutheran
website/debate on
homsexuality acceptance and the matter of celibacy
(it truly is a mind
As Goans, what is our outlook towards
homosexuality.
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saligao
2006-09-18 21:58:51 UTC
Permalink
Hi Selma,

Wendell has been a beacon of hope for so many in a land steeped in
hypocrisy and prejudice. He made international news a few years ago and
continues to 'walk the walk' for gay rights and the environment in Goa.
http://www.marriagedebate.com/2004/02/gay-marriage-debate-goes-global-slowly
.htm

However, I'm not so sure about our new Bush-clone PM Steven Harper's plans
to re-open the same-sex marriage issue that has been settled by the highest
court in the land.
http://www.equal-marriage.ca/resource.php?id=517

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.

-------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 22:22:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carvalho <elisabeth_car at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Are Goans Homophobe?

.....
Other than Wendell Rodrigues, I don't think there are
too many homosexual men or women leading openly gay
lifestyles. I think Wendell is courageous to take on
this flame torch on behalf of his tribe.
....

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Mario Goveia
2006-09-19 15:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by saligao
Hi Selma,
Wendell has been a beacon of hope for so many in a
land steeped in
hypocrisy and prejudice. He made international news
a few years ago and
continues to 'walk the walk' for gay rights and the
environment in Goa.
http://www.marriagedebate.com/2004/02/gay-marriage-debate-goes-global-slowly
Post by saligao
.htm
However, I'm not so sure about our new Bush-clone PM
Steven Harper's plans
to re-open the same-sex marriage issue that has been
settled by the highest
court in the land.
http://www.equal-marriage.ca/resource.php?id=517
Mario responds:
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
I'm so glad that Kevin and Selma are ecstatic that
Wendell has been a "beacon of hope" for gays in Goa.
I, too, am glad for all of them, as it must be
difficult to be gay in straight-laced Goa.
However, as usual Kevin, who preaches tolerance and
conciliation snidely interspersed with exactly the
opposite, takes this opportumity to obfuscate the
debate about gay marriage in the US and Canada.
Apparently in Canada, as in Britain, any time their
leader happens to have an opinion that crosses paths
with the US-administration, they are referred to by
their political opponents as "Bush-clones". No such
reference is made when they disagree with the US
administration.
I don't particularly care what the Canadians do so I
will restrict my remarks to the US.
Marriage in most of the US is defined as the formal
legal union of a man and a woman, not a man and a man,
or a woman and a woman, or a man and several women, or
several women and a man, or a grown-up and a child, or
a human with an non-human, all options that would open
up under anti-discrimination laws if the definition is
changed for one group. One US state, Massachussetts,
"recognizes same sex marriages", other states
recognize "civil unions". This has already led to
lawsuits by polygamists demanding the same privileges.
Those who fit the other definitions, have the ability
to enter into legal contracts with any content they
choose to include, generally referred to as "domestic
partnership" agreements or "civil unions". Even
non-gay friends who live together out of convenience
can do so. They just cannot call it "marriage",
because large percentages of Americans of all kinds,
including flaming liberals on everything else, have
legally opined through the democratic process that
they do not want the traditional and legal definition
of marriage changed.
It's as simple as that.
Gabe Menezes
2006-09-20 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
RESPONSE: My, my...you do fancy yourself, really! Which homosexual
would even dream of suffing it in your face??
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-09-20 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
RESPONSE: My, my...you do fancy yourself, really! Which homosexual
would even dream of suffing it in your face??
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-09-20 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
RESPONSE: My, my...you do fancy yourself, really! Which homosexual
would even dream of suffing it in your face??
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-09-20 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
RESPONSE: My, my...you do fancy yourself, really! Which homosexual
would even dream of suffing it in your face??
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-09-20 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
RESPONSE: My, my...you do fancy yourself, really! Which homosexual
would even dream of suffing it in your face??
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-09-20 07:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
RESPONSE: My, my...you do fancy yourself, really! Which homosexual
would even dream of suffing it in your face??
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Carvalho
2006-09-20 04:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,

Why do I detect an undertone of sarcasm in your post?
If not, why else would "beacon of hope" be in inverted
commas in your message. Your post and that of Dominic
Fernandes, to me reeks of homophobia.

I don't pretend to understand homosexuality but having
known so many homosexual men, some of whom I consider
very good friends, I don't sit in judgment of it. What
goes on between two consenting adults is their own
business.

Selma
---------------------------------------------
Post by Mario Goveia
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as
they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
I'm so glad that Kevin and Selma are ecstatic that
Wendell has been a "beacon of hope" for gays in Goa.
I, too, am glad for all of them, as it must be
difficult to be gay in straight-laced Goa.
__________________________________________________
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-09-20 00:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Folks,
I am sure that a lot of you have noticed that there
are some people here who are unable to debate any
subject without turning to religion. When they cannot
introduce religion into a debate, they switch to
comparing the country they live in with Canada or the
UK.

What is really sad is that some of them deliberately
set out to lie about the country they live in.

I started to read what Mario had to write about the
good ol' USA but had to stop reading after a few lines
as, in the USA, it is quite legal for an adult to
marry a 14 year old child. I had earlier pointed this
out to him on another forum.

As far as Goan homophobes are concerned, I have yet to
meet one outside Goa.

Mervyn3.0
Post by Mario Goveia
However, as usual Kevin, who preaches tolerance and
conciliation snidely interspersed with exactly the
opposite, takes this opportumity to obfuscate the
debate about gay marriage in the US and Canada.
Apparently in Canada, as in Britain, any time their
leader happens to have an opinion that crosses paths
with the US-administration, they are referred to by
their political opponents as "Bush-clones". No such
reference is made when they disagree with the US
administration.
I don't particularly care what the Canadians do so I
will restrict my remarks to the US.
Marriage in most of the US is defined as the formal
legal union of a man and a woman, not a man and a
man, or a woman and a woman, or a man and several
women, or several women and a man, or a grown-up
and a child, or a human with an non-human, all
options that would open up under anti->
discrimination laws if the definition is changed
for one group. One US state,
Massachussetts,"recognizes same sex marriages",
other states recognize "civil unions". This has
already led to lawsuits by polygamists demanding
the same privileges.
Those who fit the other definitions, have the
ability
to enter into legal contracts with any content they
choose to include, generally referred to as
"domestic
partnership" agreements or "civil unions". Even
non-gay friends who live together out of convenience
can do so. They just cannot call it "marriage",
because large percentages of Americans of all kinds,
including flaming liberals on everything else, have
legally opined through the democratic process that
they do not want the traditional and legal
definition of marriage changed.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Bosco D'Mello
2006-09-20 05:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Your post and that of Dominic Fernandes, to me reeks of homophobia.
RESPONSE: From Webster:

One entry found for homophobia.

Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or
homosexuals

Kevin enquired if there was a Konkani word for Homosexual / Homosexuality.
Domnic Fernandes provided a word that he believes fits the terminology. Now
you state his post is homophobic ? What is your rationale ? Why condemn
Domnic's post ? It would have been appropriate if you had provided a
translated word(s) instead of thrusting an undesirable halo on Domnic's post.

It is true that some societies have become gay-friendly (for want of a better
word) and we have assimilated homosexuality as part of our ideology. Canada is
at the forefront of gay rights as Kevin earlier explained to the angst of the
Holy See.

- Bosco
Toronto, CA
Carvalho
2006-09-20 17:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Dear Darling Bosco,

It could be that I jumped the gun on Dominic (no puns
here) but in all my years as a Goan, I've never heard
this word used. If indeed this is a Goan word to
describe homosexuality, then how would one describe
heterosexuality? Potmarob? Because all you can see
protruding from Goan men, are their ample "pots". :))

Selma
Post by Carvalho
Your post and that of Dominic Fernandes, to me
reeks of homophobia.
One entry found for homophobia.
Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination
against homosexuality or
homosexuals
Kevin enquired if there was a Konkani word for
Homosexual / Homosexuality.
Domnic Fernandes provided a word that he believes
fits the terminology. Now
you state his post is homophobic ? What is your
rationale ? Why condemn
Domnic's post ? It would have been appropriate if
you had provided a
translated word(s) instead of thrusting an
undesirable halo on Domnic's post.
__________________________________________________
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Bosco D'Mello
2006-09-21 04:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Darling Bosco,
It could be that I jumped the gun on Dominic (no puns here) but in
all my years as a Goan, I've never heard this word used. If indeed
this is a Goan word to describe homosexuality, then how would one
describe heterosexuality? Potmarob? Because all you can see protruding
from Goan men, are their ample "pots". :))
Selma

RESPONSE: For starters shall we please follow Captain Morgan's filosawphee -
What happens below the deck, STAYS below the deck!

You have more than jumped the gun on this one. Besides your gaffe in the
earlier message, you have now acknowledged that you know all the Konkani words
there are to know. Viva !! A slug of Captain Morgan's to that.

Secondly you are forcefully shoving Domnic into the company of your off-key
but soloist brass player - who does the fingering and blowing without any
help. Domnic's talent is writing, with sincerity I might add. He is no brass
player.

Thirdly, I don't know which Goan men you were looking at when you saw
those "pots". Captain Morgan and his crew have labored to carry around a
chiselled 6-pack.

Let Konkani education - words, grammar, script run perennially.

Best - Bosco

PS. In all my years as a Goan, I never knew there was a place called Kamanwada
in Goa
Goa
2006-09-22 10:16:38 UTC
Permalink
EU procedures delaying issuance of passports, says Portuguese MP
NT Staff Reporter


Panaji, Sept 20: The general secretary of Portuguese Communist Party (PCP)
and the member of Portuguese Parliament, Mr Jeronimo de Souza today said
that the European Union has virtually turned Europe into a fortress and this
was the main reason for the delay in issuing Portuguese passports by the
Consulate of Portugal in Goa.

The PCP will intervene in this matter and communicate to the Portuguese
government, the views of Goans in this respect, he assured, adding that "the
PCP would do all that is possible to re-start the process of issuance of
Portuguese passports".

Mr de Souza also said that the PCP, the 85-year old party always supported
Goa in the demand for its liberation from the colonial rule. "Our struggle
against fascism in Portugal was no different from that in Goa, during the
Salazar regime," he maintained.

Stating that PCP was the only opposition political party that could survive
during the dictatorial rule of Salazar, Mr de Souza said that PCP is the
party of the people. He observed that Goa is a true friend of Portugal,
adding "In Portugal there is a saying that good friendships are made under
most difficult conditions."

The PCP general secretary said that Goa set an example for other colonies of
Portugal, to struggle for one's liberation, which was followed with great
success.

Mr de Souza who was earlier felicitated by the Goa state council of the
Communist Party of India (CPI) along with the PCP politburo member, Mr
Anjelo Alves, during a special function organised at the Institute Menezes
Braganza Hall, said that the delay in issuing Portuguese passports was not
entirely due to the bureaucratic reasons.

The commissioner for NRI affairs, Mr Eduardo Faleiro who was the chief guest
on the occasion said that colonialism is a crime against humanity, and added
that the new imperialism was being developed under the United States of
America.

"What is required is total and general nuclear disarmament and removal of
all weapons of mass destruction across the world, democracy in international
relations and respect for human rights including economic and social
rights," Mr Faleiro opined, pointing out that the peace loving people of
the world should coordinate their strategies in this direction. "A luta
continua" he pointed out, meaning the struggle continues.

Mr Faleiro also said that the human rights should also include the right of
development, making an appeal to the Western countries to maintain racial
and cultural integrity.

The city mayor, Mr Tony Rodrigues, in his speech said that the Portuguese
Consulate in the state should continue issuing Portuguese passports so that
the Goan people may get better opportunities to travel to Portugal and other
parts of Europe for employment.

The general secretary of the Goa state CPI, Mr Christopher Fonseca, in his
welcome address said that the 450 years of Portuguese domination in Goa
should not restrict us from recognising that the Portuguese have left an
indelible mark on the language, culture, art, architecture, laws and even
sports in the state, as also on the local socio-economic and political
institutions, in totality. He also acknowledged that Goa has been directly
benefited from the Uniform Civil Code.

Earlier, the CPI secretary for the international department, Mr Pallav Sen
Gupta introduced. Former IAS officer, Mr Albano Couto, well-known
educationist, Prof Suresh Amonkar, freedom fighter, Mr Shridhar Tamba,
senior journalist, Flaviano Dias and veteran trade union leader, Dr Luiza
Pereira were present on the dias.

A condolence motion was also passed on the occasion paying homage to all the
known and unknown people who fought for the liberation of Goa.
Filomena Giese
2006-09-23 05:56:06 UTC
Permalink
While about a dozen Goanet argu-pros have been
debating whether Santosh is an indecent, mo-f
in? (to
use a traditional American epithet that deserves to be
added to the Goanet lexicon of insults) atheist, and a
lamebrain pseudo-scientist, daring to question the
latest research quoted by Gilbert about cancer
operations as indisputable fact and good medical
practice, the rest of us 6,990 readers have been
thinking
. and gearing up to contribute our 2 cents?
worth.
Gilbert was talking about how the latest cancer
research about the effect of operations on tumors
validates the old kaneos that operations spread
cancer.
My own experience with ?the latest research? is just
the opposite. I learned the hard way that the "latest
research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and is
not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth. Here?s
how my story goes:
1. In July 1991, I went for my yearly checkup and pap
test to a gynecologist/obstetrician considered one of
the top ones in the San Francisco-Berkeley area. As I
was almost 51 and going through menopause, he said
that I should be on hormone replacement. I questioned
this as I had no bad symptoms except for some mild
sleeplessness. I also told him what was already in my
medical history, that I was a lifelong migraine
sufferer and extremely sensitive to hormones and other
medications. He insisted that ?the latest research?
showed that it would help me in other ways like
preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis. I did
report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by
but he said that I would get used to it and that the
hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many
studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as
beneficial to older women.
2. In December 1991, I got a most terrible headache
while taking a class. I knew it wasn?t just a
migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I was
taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical
School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had
suffered a brain haemorrage. I was operated on by
their top brain surgeon. No aneurism was found and no
apparent reason for the ?bleed? as it?s commonly
called. Incidentally, when I later told my lawyer
that I had just had a brain operation, he quipped ?Did
they find one?? Goanetters might share the same
sentiment.....
3. I was, of course, greatly impressed at all the
great medical technology that had saved my life and
brain. Others on the same floor as me were either in
a coma or in a vegetative state. My daughter, who was
herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me,
somewhat skeptical of medical ?science? as the total
answer, ?Mom, it?s your voodoo (prayers and hope)
against theirs.?
4. After recovery, I was sent to the top neurologist
at UCSF who specialized in headaches, especially
migraines. It turned out that he had presented a
paper at a medical conference not even a year before,
cautioning giving hormone replacement therapy (HRT) to
women with migraine and advising that certain cautions
should be taken because there was a higher risk of
stroke in such women. Obviously, my gynecologist was
not aware of the latest in neurological research. The
UCSF neurosurgeon and neurologist recommended that I
stop HRT. I changed gynecologists, naturally.
5. Subsequent research has shown that hormone
replacement therapy causes strokes and even heart
attacks in many women, not just those with a history
of migraine. It has been largely discontinued, I'm
told. HRT is also not recommended for women with
breast and other gynecological cancers many of which
are related to higher estrogen levels.

Moral of the story: the ?latest research? might turn
out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to rush
to judgement and give up operations for cancer just
because the latest research says this or that, is not
half wrong.
My life-threatening situation arose because the
gynecologist didn?t pay attention to the neurologist.
Now, if defenders of our resident Goanet gynecologist,
Gilbert, were to pay respectful attention to our
resident Goanet neurologist, Santosh, who knows, we
may well be on the way to achieving peace and amity on
Goanet
..
Filomena


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Santosh Helekar
2006-09-24 16:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Dear Filomena,

I commend you on your excellent take on the tentative
and provisional nature of some of the findings of
medical research, and on the fallibility medical
professionals. Thanks for relating your personal story
about the adverse effects of hormone replacement
therapy.

On a personal note, I am impressed by your keen
observational skills in commenting on the decent
professional practice of insinuating in public forums
that a professional colleague is a pseudo-scientist. A
minor correction though is that Gilbert is a
distinguished radiation oncologist, who I believe, is
board-certified in Therapeutic Radiology, and I am a
neuroscientist.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Filomena Giese
While about a dozen Goanet argu-pros have been
debating whether Santosh is an indecent, mo-f
in'
Post by Filomena Giese
(to
use a traditional American epithet that deserves to
be
added to the Goanet lexicon of insults) atheist, and
a
lamebrain pseudo-scientist, daring to question the
latest research quoted by Gilbert about cancer
operations as indisputable fact and good medical
practice, the rest of us 6,990 readers have been
thinking
. and gearing up to contribute our 2 cents'
Post by Filomena Giese
worth.
Gilbert was talking about how the latest cancer
research about the effect of operations on tumors
validates the old kaneos that operations spread
cancer.
My own experience with "the latest research" is just
the opposite. I learned the hard way that the
"latest
research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and
is
not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth. Here's
1. In July 1991, I went for my yearly checkup
and pap
test to a gynecologist/obstetrician considered one
of
the top ones in the San Francisco-Berkeley area. As
I
was almost 51 and going through menopause, he said
that I should be on hormone replacement. I
questioned
this as I had no bad symptoms except for some mild
sleeplessness. I also told him what was already in
my
medical history, that I was a lifelong migraine
sufferer and extremely sensitive to hormones and
other
medications. He insisted that "the latest research"
showed that it would help me in other ways like
preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis. I did
report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by
but he said that I would get used to it and that the
hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many
studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as
beneficial to older women.
2. In December 1991, I got a most terrible
headache
while taking a class. I knew it wasn't just a
migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I
was
taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical
School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had
suffered a brain haemorrage. I was operated on by
their top brain surgeon. No aneurism was found and
no
apparent reason for the "bleed" as it's commonly
called. Incidentally, when I later told my lawyer
that I had just had a brain operation, he quipped
"Did
they find one?" Goanetters might share the same
sentiment.....
3. I was, of course, greatly impressed at all
the
great medical technology that had saved my life and
brain. Others on the same floor as me were either
in
a coma or in a vegetative state. My daughter, who
was
herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me,
somewhat skeptical of medical "science" as the total
answer, "Mom, it's your voodoo (prayers and hope)
against theirs."
4. After recovery, I was sent to the top
neurologist
at UCSF who specialized in headaches, especially
migraines. It turned out that he had presented a
paper at a medical conference not even a year
before,
cautioning giving hormone replacement therapy (HRT)
to
women with migraine and advising that certain
cautions
should be taken because there was a higher risk of
stroke in such women. Obviously, my gynecologist
was
not aware of the latest in neurological research.
The
UCSF neurosurgeon and neurologist recommended that I
stop HRT. I changed gynecologists, naturally.
5. Subsequent research has shown that hormone
replacement therapy causes strokes and even heart
attacks in many women, not just those with a history
of migraine. It has been largely discontinued, I'm
told. HRT is also not recommended for women with
breast and other gynecological cancers many of which
are related to higher estrogen levels.
Moral of the story: the "latest research" might
turn
out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to
rush
to judgement and give up operations for cancer just
because the latest research says this or that, is
not
half wrong.
My life-threatening situation arose because the
gynecologist didn't pay attention to the
neurologist.
Now, if defenders of our resident Goanet
gynecologist,
Gilbert, were to pay respectful attention to our
resident Goanet neurologist, Santosh, who knows, we
may well be on the way to achieving peace and amity
on
Goanet
..
Post by Filomena Giese
Filomena
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-09-27 00:06:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi Filomena,

With all due respects to you, what you say, that I said .... is not what I said that you say. In fact it is just the opposite.

You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has not thanked you for the support. Your statements (below) totally contradict the hard facts of the "gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that medical and other sciences present through research and publications in "peer reviewed" journals. The contrarian view is the point Fred, others and I have been making under the thread / title of "Another Kaneo .. or is it .. Hot Air?" which was an offshoot of "Science as a religion". All of us have had little success getting our point across. Perhaps with your personal story and specially the "moral of the story" some of our readers will be more aware of what we have been writing.

Your comment, "Santosh, in warning us not to rush to judgement and give up operations for cancer" (second line last paragraph), as a neutral reader of this discussion / thread, shows what a "fine job" Santosh has been doing with distorting my writings. In none of my posts did I state that there was no role for the surgeon or surgery in cancer management. In fact in my very first post, I clearly state that surgery has moved from radical / aggressive surgery to organ-sparing / conservative surgery. And more recently I stated we have gone from Open Biopsy to Needle Biopsy.

Thank you for sharing your personal medical story with us. It brings home many mistakes that physicians and researchers make. Oops! Did I say mistakes by physicians and researchers? Mistakes are supposedly only confined to religion; And physicians are supposed to correct those religion mistakes. Should we give the padres equal time and space to opine on the "dangerous (medical) myth and is not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth" (quoting you)?
From your post below, you have a very smart daughter. As a budding knowledgeable doctor at UCSF, she has conceptually bridged the "voodoo and prayers" of (your) religion with "voodoo and prayers" of medical science and your doctors. :=)) As a doctor after my heart, another adage your daughter may find useful is: "A lot more often than we realize, patients live in spite of their doctors". And we, the doctors, should Thank God for that.
Treatment choices lie somewhere in the midst of skepticism of multiple sources (corroboration) of scientific data. The treatment should be tailored to the patient; and not the patient to the scientific study. No doctor should "insists" on what their patient should do. The physicians' role is to present the facts and information of the various options to the patient. And let the patient make the choice. After-all it is their life. The doctors may make a good faith recommendation, - the same that they would make to a very close relative. The patient also should be encouraged to do their own reading and to ask questions. As your case demonstrates, the patient, (not the doctor), that pays the ultimate price and lives with the choice / decisions and consequences. I hope you politely informed your original gynecologist what happened to you. That may be the best education he / she may receive and that would benefit their next patients. Good scientists and doctors are always humble and open to learn from experience, especially the untoward ones.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Filomena Giese wrote:

My own experience with "the latest research" is just the opposite. I learned the hard way that the "latest research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and is not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth.

He (gynecologist) insisted that "the latest research" showed that it would help me in other ways like preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis.... I did report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by but he said that I would get used to it and that the hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as beneficial to older women. In December 1991, I got a most terrible headache while taking a class. I knew it wasn't just a migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I was taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had suffered a brain haemorrage.

My daughter, who was herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me, somewhat skeptical of medical "science" as the total answer, "Mom, it's your voodoo (prayers and hope) against theirs."

Moral of the story: the "latest research" might turn out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to rush to judgement and give up operations for cancer just because the latest research says this or that, is not half wrong. My life-threatening situation arose because the gynecologist didn't pay attention to the neurologist.


-------- Santosh Helekar wrote:
I commend you on your excellent take on the tentative and provisional nature of some of the findings of medical research, and on the fallibility medical professionals. Thanks for relating your personal story about the adverse effects of hormone replacement therapy.
Santosh Helekar
2006-09-27 05:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has not
thanked you for the support. Your statements
(below) totally contradict the hard facts of the
"gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that medical
and other sciences present through research and
publications in "peer reviewed" journals.
I am sorry. This is not accurate. I have already
thanked Filomena for an excellent analysis. The rest
of what is written in the above post is also not an
accurate and fair characterization of my views. To
find out what my views are please read my response to
Filomena, and all my prior posts on this issue. I have
written extensively on the self-corrective nature of
science over the years. I humbly request Gilbert not
to put words in my mouth or to point to Frederick's or
anyone else's mischaracterization of my views. And I
ask readers not to rely on someone else's opinion of
what I said or implied. I trust Gilbert would try to
understand and respect this simple principle of any
public discourse.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mario Goveia
2006-09-28 18:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has
not thanked you for the support. Your statements
(below) totally contradict the hard facts of the
"gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that
medical and other sciences present through
research and publications in "peer reviewed"
journals.
I am sorry. This is not accurate. I have already
thanked Filomena for an excellent analysis.
Mario observes:
Santosh thanked Filomena for swallowing his false
interpretation of Gilbert's comments in his post
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
hook, line and sinker, obviously without critically
reading what Gilbert had originally posted in
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html
Post by Santosh Helekar
The rest of what is written in the above post is
also not an accurate and fair characterization of
my views. To find out what my views are please read
my response to Filomena, and all my prior posts on
this issue. I have written extensively on the self-
corrective nature of science over the years. I
humbly request Gilbert not to put words in my mouth
or to point to Frederick's or anyone else's
mischaracterization of my views. And I ask readers
not to rely on someone else's opinion of what I
said or implied. I trust Gilbert would try to
understand and respect this simple principle of any
public discourse.
Mario observes:
The only one mischaracterizing and obfuscating his own
previously written views, and continuing to do so, is
Santosh. No one is asking anyone to rely on anyone
else's representations. Just the opposite. I am
asking people to critically read what Gilbert and
Santosh said in their own words.
It is very important for readers to first carefully
read Gilbert's original post in the URL above, and
then compare this with Santosh's response shown in the
other URL above.
Readers then need to read Kevin's post
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048373.html
where he gave Santosh a chance to reconsider.
Rather than do so, Santosh responded to Kevin in
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048416.html
where he REPEATED his false allegations of what
Gilbert had posted.
Readers also need to keep in mind that the topic here
is cancer. Gilbert is an experienced Board Certified
oncologist being accused by Santosh with the following
opening statement, "The post appended below propagates
dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer
treatment in this public forum."
Santosh describes himself in another forum as follows:
"Baylor College of Medicine in Houston is a habitat
for all kinds of minds, where mine got me a Ph.D. in
brain science, working me long and hard trying to
understand what is wrong with the brain cells of mice
that are genetically prone to have epileptic seizures.
There, my mind, with more time in the postdoctoral
slammer, even eked out a basic discovery relevant to
how normal brain cells develop mature communication
channels. There, I could even become a certified
armchair thinker, and have my thoughts packaged as a
bona fide theory to explain how literal sparks become
figurative ones." [end of excerpt]
While I have no doubt that Santosh is an excellent
researcher in his field, his field is not cancer.
So, who would YOU consult if you found you had cancer?
Gilbert, or Santosh?
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-09-29 00:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,

Thank you for your polite response. I fully concur with your statement below about the "self-corrective nature of science". The question I have for you (and others) is: Are not other fields like religion, politics, history, government etc. also "self-correcting" over time? So we cannot condemn medicine / science for its past mistakes, because it self-corrects. Yet, can we keep constantly condemning religion, other fields and major institutions for their historical mistakes, as you and a few Goanetters tend to do. I do not want your rebuttal. I just request your consideration of this point when you (and others) stand on the soap-box.

I am sure you realize, that until medicine self-corrects, perhaps in a decade or so, a lot of patients are the victims of flawed treatments and recommendations in the interim. Just look at the large number of drugs that have been pulled off the shelf or the changing medical practice patterns in various diseases. So medicine / science, as well as we physicians and scientists, do not have a monopoly on self-righteousness and wisdom.

Mario quoted you verbatim (with web links) in his response to Filomena. Hence, my line of reasoning was not your exact words; but rather what an unbiased reader understood from your parsed writings? Either our intelligent Filomena had a problem understanding your English / writings. Or she was demagoging the subject and me by implying, that I was promoting that, we should do away with surgery in cancer management.

In fact, you were so good in your writings on this subject that I was confused by what you were trying to say. You condemned me for reporting on the mice experiment that suggest surgery alters the immune system and making the cancer behave more aggressively. To quote you, I was: "Propagates dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this public forum."
Then you went ahead and directed readers to many references on exactly similar findings (of suppressed immune markers after surgery) in humans. So this supurlo Goenkar (moi) did not know whether to laugh or to cry. Similarly you provided a link about the near-absolute need to do a biopsy to diagnose / confirm a new cancer. This is something that one did not need a rocket scientist to validate.:=)) That is why it looked to me like a "fuggdi". :=))

Kind Regards, GL

------------ Santosh Helekar

I have written extensively on the self-corrective nature of science over the years.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-01 04:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So this supurlo Goenkar (moi) did not know whether to
laugh or to cry. Similarly you provided a link about
the near-absolute need to do a biopsy to diagnose /
confirm a new cancer. This is something that one did
not need a rocket scientist to validate.:=)) That is
why it looked to me like a "fuggdi". :=))
Hi Gilbert,

It is very clear that you and I have a strong
disagreement about your post on the so-called
grandmother?s kaannee regarding cancer treatment. If
you really want to know who is right, I could ask a
well-recognized Goan cancer surgeon and researcher,
who is very knowledgeable about this issue, to comment
on that post of yours, and then post his commentary on
Goanet. Do you want me to do that? Please let me know.
Regarding your other points, my comments are
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The question I have for you (and others) is: Are not
other fields like religion, politics, history,
government etc. also "self-correcting" over time?
A self-correcting field changes its beliefs and
assumptions based on objective evidence. In the above
list only history satisfies this definition with any
degree of consistency. Religion, especially, is almost
never self-correcting by its very nature.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So we cannot condemn medicine / science for its past
mistakes, because it self-corrects.
Who claimed that we cannot condemn medicine/science
for anything? My view is that we absolutely must
condemn medicine/science for their past and present
wrongdoings.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Yet, can we keep constantly condemning religion,
other >fields and major institutions for their
historical >mistakes, as you and a few Goanetters tend
to do.
My view is that we have to condemn these fields, as
well, for their past and present wrongdoings. We
cannot give them special immunity.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So medicine / science, as well as we physicians and
scientists, do not have a monopoly on
self-righteousness and wisdom.
Who claimed that they did?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Mario quoted you verbatim (with web links) in his
response to Filomena.
I don?t think Mario understands this issue very well.
I would humbly request you to ignore whatever he is
saying about me in general.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Hence, my line of reasoning was not your exact words;
but rather what an unbiased reader understood from
your parsed writings?
Please forgive me for being blunt. But let me
respectfully submit to you that your line of reasoning
as far as my views are concerned is neither unbiased
nor accurate.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Either our intelligent Filomena had a problem
understanding your English / writings.
Filomena is an extremely smart, perceptive and
knowledgeable lady. She understood exactly what I was
saying and implying.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
To quote you, I was: "Propagates dangerous myths and
misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this
public forum."
Sorry, but I have to stand by my assertion. Again, I
respectfully suggest to you that if you give me
permission to ask a Goan cancer surgery expert to
comment on your post, we can settle this issue once
and for all. Do I have your permission?

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2006-09-18 05:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Dear Roland,

An interesting question indeed. Sometime ago, I was
mulling over whether Goans are predominantly
conservative or liberal as per the loosely used
meaning of the terms.

Goa itself in bifurcating into two different
world-views. There is North Goa and then there is
South Goa, there are the central parts of Goa
connected by the NH17 and then there are the
hinterlands and far-flung talukas like Sanguem and
Canacona, which are quite unique in their perspective.
Within these two worlds exist difference formed and
defined by exposure to media, external influences,
education, city-life and parochialism.

Other than Wendell Rodrigues, I don't think there are
too many homosexual men or women leading openly gay
lifestyles. I think Wendell is courageous to take on
this flame torch on behalf of his tribe.

I don't even know if a word for homosexuality exists
in Konkani. My parents and in-laws refer to men who
might be gay using the Portuguese word "effeminade".
So in response to your question, in my experience
Goans are still not very exposed to it.

Selma
------------------------------------
Post by Roland Francis
With regard to Kevin's link to the Lutheran
website/debate on
homsexuality acceptance and the matter of celibacy
(it truly is a mind
As Goans, what is our outlook towards
homosexuality.
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Mario Goveia
2006-09-19 15:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by saligao
Hi Selma,
Wendell has been a beacon of hope for so many in a
land steeped in
hypocrisy and prejudice. He made international news
a few years ago and
continues to 'walk the walk' for gay rights and the
environment in Goa.
http://www.marriagedebate.com/2004/02/gay-marriage-debate-goes-global-slowly
Post by saligao
.htm
However, I'm not so sure about our new Bush-clone PM
Steven Harper's plans
to re-open the same-sex marriage issue that has been
settled by the highest
court in the land.
http://www.equal-marriage.ca/resource.php?id=517
Mario responds:
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
I'm so glad that Kevin and Selma are ecstatic that
Wendell has been a "beacon of hope" for gays in Goa.
I, too, am glad for all of them, as it must be
difficult to be gay in straight-laced Goa.
However, as usual Kevin, who preaches tolerance and
conciliation snidely interspersed with exactly the
opposite, takes this opportumity to obfuscate the
debate about gay marriage in the US and Canada.
Apparently in Canada, as in Britain, any time their
leader happens to have an opinion that crosses paths
with the US-administration, they are referred to by
their political opponents as "Bush-clones". No such
reference is made when they disagree with the US
administration.
I don't particularly care what the Canadians do so I
will restrict my remarks to the US.
Marriage in most of the US is defined as the formal
legal union of a man and a woman, not a man and a man,
or a woman and a woman, or a man and several women, or
several women and a man, or a grown-up and a child, or
a human with an non-human, all options that would open
up under anti-discrimination laws if the definition is
changed for one group. One US state, Massachussetts,
"recognizes same sex marriages", other states
recognize "civil unions". This has already led to
lawsuits by polygamists demanding the same privileges.
Those who fit the other definitions, have the ability
to enter into legal contracts with any content they
choose to include, generally referred to as "domestic
partnership" agreements or "civil unions". Even
non-gay friends who live together out of convenience
can do so. They just cannot call it "marriage",
because large percentages of Americans of all kinds,
including flaming liberals on everything else, have
legally opined through the democratic process that
they do not want the traditional and legal definition
of marriage changed.
It's as simple as that.
Carvalho
2006-09-20 04:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,

Why do I detect an undertone of sarcasm in your post?
If not, why else would "beacon of hope" be in inverted
commas in your message. Your post and that of Dominic
Fernandes, to me reeks of homophobia.

I don't pretend to understand homosexuality but having
known so many homosexual men, some of whom I consider
very good friends, I don't sit in judgment of it. What
goes on between two consenting adults is their own
business.

Selma
---------------------------------------------
Post by Mario Goveia
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as
they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
I'm so glad that Kevin and Selma are ecstatic that
Wendell has been a "beacon of hope" for gays in Goa.
I, too, am glad for all of them, as it must be
difficult to be gay in straight-laced Goa.
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-09-20 00:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Folks,
I am sure that a lot of you have noticed that there
are some people here who are unable to debate any
subject without turning to religion. When they cannot
introduce religion into a debate, they switch to
comparing the country they live in with Canada or the
UK.

What is really sad is that some of them deliberately
set out to lie about the country they live in.

I started to read what Mario had to write about the
good ol' USA but had to stop reading after a few lines
as, in the USA, it is quite legal for an adult to
marry a 14 year old child. I had earlier pointed this
out to him on another forum.

As far as Goan homophobes are concerned, I have yet to
meet one outside Goa.

Mervyn3.0
Post by Mario Goveia
However, as usual Kevin, who preaches tolerance and
conciliation snidely interspersed with exactly the
opposite, takes this opportumity to obfuscate the
debate about gay marriage in the US and Canada.
Apparently in Canada, as in Britain, any time their
leader happens to have an opinion that crosses paths
with the US-administration, they are referred to by
their political opponents as "Bush-clones". No such
reference is made when they disagree with the US
administration.
I don't particularly care what the Canadians do so I
will restrict my remarks to the US.
Marriage in most of the US is defined as the formal
legal union of a man and a woman, not a man and a
man, or a woman and a woman, or a man and several
women, or several women and a man, or a grown-up
and a child, or a human with an non-human, all
options that would open up under anti->
discrimination laws if the definition is changed
for one group. One US state,
Massachussetts,"recognizes same sex marriages",
other states recognize "civil unions". This has
already led to lawsuits by polygamists demanding
the same privileges.
Those who fit the other definitions, have the
ability
to enter into legal contracts with any content they
choose to include, generally referred to as
"domestic
partnership" agreements or "civil unions". Even
non-gay friends who live together out of convenience
can do so. They just cannot call it "marriage",
because large percentages of Americans of all kinds,
including flaming liberals on everything else, have
legally opined through the democratic process that
they do not want the traditional and legal
definition of marriage changed.
__________________________________________________
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Bosco D'Mello
2006-09-20 05:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Your post and that of Dominic Fernandes, to me reeks of homophobia.
RESPONSE: From Webster:

One entry found for homophobia.

Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or
homosexuals

Kevin enquired if there was a Konkani word for Homosexual / Homosexuality.
Domnic Fernandes provided a word that he believes fits the terminology. Now
you state his post is homophobic ? What is your rationale ? Why condemn
Domnic's post ? It would have been appropriate if you had provided a
translated word(s) instead of thrusting an undesirable halo on Domnic's post.

It is true that some societies have become gay-friendly (for want of a better
word) and we have assimilated homosexuality as part of our ideology. Canada is
at the forefront of gay rights as Kevin earlier explained to the angst of the
Holy See.

- Bosco
Toronto, CA
Carvalho
2006-09-20 17:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Dear Darling Bosco,

It could be that I jumped the gun on Dominic (no puns
here) but in all my years as a Goan, I've never heard
this word used. If indeed this is a Goan word to
describe homosexuality, then how would one describe
heterosexuality? Potmarob? Because all you can see
protruding from Goan men, are their ample "pots". :))

Selma
Post by Carvalho
Your post and that of Dominic Fernandes, to me
reeks of homophobia.
One entry found for homophobia.
Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination
against homosexuality or
homosexuals
Kevin enquired if there was a Konkani word for
Homosexual / Homosexuality.
Domnic Fernandes provided a word that he believes
fits the terminology. Now
you state his post is homophobic ? What is your
rationale ? Why condemn
Domnic's post ? It would have been appropriate if
you had provided a
translated word(s) instead of thrusting an
undesirable halo on Domnic's post.
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Bosco D'Mello
2006-09-21 04:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Darling Bosco,
It could be that I jumped the gun on Dominic (no puns here) but in
all my years as a Goan, I've never heard this word used. If indeed
this is a Goan word to describe homosexuality, then how would one
describe heterosexuality? Potmarob? Because all you can see protruding
from Goan men, are their ample "pots". :))
Selma

RESPONSE: For starters shall we please follow Captain Morgan's filosawphee -
What happens below the deck, STAYS below the deck!

You have more than jumped the gun on this one. Besides your gaffe in the
earlier message, you have now acknowledged that you know all the Konkani words
there are to know. Viva !! A slug of Captain Morgan's to that.

Secondly you are forcefully shoving Domnic into the company of your off-key
but soloist brass player - who does the fingering and blowing without any
help. Domnic's talent is writing, with sincerity I might add. He is no brass
player.

Thirdly, I don't know which Goan men you were looking at when you saw
those "pots". Captain Morgan and his crew have labored to carry around a
chiselled 6-pack.

Let Konkani education - words, grammar, script run perennially.

Best - Bosco

PS. In all my years as a Goan, I never knew there was a place called Kamanwada
in Goa
Goa
2006-09-22 10:16:38 UTC
Permalink
EU procedures delaying issuance of passports, says Portuguese MP
NT Staff Reporter


Panaji, Sept 20: The general secretary of Portuguese Communist Party (PCP)
and the member of Portuguese Parliament, Mr Jeronimo de Souza today said
that the European Union has virtually turned Europe into a fortress and this
was the main reason for the delay in issuing Portuguese passports by the
Consulate of Portugal in Goa.

The PCP will intervene in this matter and communicate to the Portuguese
government, the views of Goans in this respect, he assured, adding that "the
PCP would do all that is possible to re-start the process of issuance of
Portuguese passports".

Mr de Souza also said that the PCP, the 85-year old party always supported
Goa in the demand for its liberation from the colonial rule. "Our struggle
against fascism in Portugal was no different from that in Goa, during the
Salazar regime," he maintained.

Stating that PCP was the only opposition political party that could survive
during the dictatorial rule of Salazar, Mr de Souza said that PCP is the
party of the people. He observed that Goa is a true friend of Portugal,
adding "In Portugal there is a saying that good friendships are made under
most difficult conditions."

The PCP general secretary said that Goa set an example for other colonies of
Portugal, to struggle for one's liberation, which was followed with great
success.

Mr de Souza who was earlier felicitated by the Goa state council of the
Communist Party of India (CPI) along with the PCP politburo member, Mr
Anjelo Alves, during a special function organised at the Institute Menezes
Braganza Hall, said that the delay in issuing Portuguese passports was not
entirely due to the bureaucratic reasons.

The commissioner for NRI affairs, Mr Eduardo Faleiro who was the chief guest
on the occasion said that colonialism is a crime against humanity, and added
that the new imperialism was being developed under the United States of
America.

"What is required is total and general nuclear disarmament and removal of
all weapons of mass destruction across the world, democracy in international
relations and respect for human rights including economic and social
rights," Mr Faleiro opined, pointing out that the peace loving people of
the world should coordinate their strategies in this direction. "A luta
continua" he pointed out, meaning the struggle continues.

Mr Faleiro also said that the human rights should also include the right of
development, making an appeal to the Western countries to maintain racial
and cultural integrity.

The city mayor, Mr Tony Rodrigues, in his speech said that the Portuguese
Consulate in the state should continue issuing Portuguese passports so that
the Goan people may get better opportunities to travel to Portugal and other
parts of Europe for employment.

The general secretary of the Goa state CPI, Mr Christopher Fonseca, in his
welcome address said that the 450 years of Portuguese domination in Goa
should not restrict us from recognising that the Portuguese have left an
indelible mark on the language, culture, art, architecture, laws and even
sports in the state, as also on the local socio-economic and political
institutions, in totality. He also acknowledged that Goa has been directly
benefited from the Uniform Civil Code.

Earlier, the CPI secretary for the international department, Mr Pallav Sen
Gupta introduced. Former IAS officer, Mr Albano Couto, well-known
educationist, Prof Suresh Amonkar, freedom fighter, Mr Shridhar Tamba,
senior journalist, Flaviano Dias and veteran trade union leader, Dr Luiza
Pereira were present on the dias.

A condolence motion was also passed on the occasion paying homage to all the
known and unknown people who fought for the liberation of Goa.
Filomena Giese
2006-09-23 05:56:06 UTC
Permalink
While about a dozen Goanet argu-pros have been
debating whether Santosh is an indecent, mo-f
in? (to
use a traditional American epithet that deserves to be
added to the Goanet lexicon of insults) atheist, and a
lamebrain pseudo-scientist, daring to question the
latest research quoted by Gilbert about cancer
operations as indisputable fact and good medical
practice, the rest of us 6,990 readers have been
thinking
. and gearing up to contribute our 2 cents?
worth.
Gilbert was talking about how the latest cancer
research about the effect of operations on tumors
validates the old kaneos that operations spread
cancer.
My own experience with ?the latest research? is just
the opposite. I learned the hard way that the "latest
research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and is
not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth. Here?s
how my story goes:
1. In July 1991, I went for my yearly checkup and pap
test to a gynecologist/obstetrician considered one of
the top ones in the San Francisco-Berkeley area. As I
was almost 51 and going through menopause, he said
that I should be on hormone replacement. I questioned
this as I had no bad symptoms except for some mild
sleeplessness. I also told him what was already in my
medical history, that I was a lifelong migraine
sufferer and extremely sensitive to hormones and other
medications. He insisted that ?the latest research?
showed that it would help me in other ways like
preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis. I did
report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by
but he said that I would get used to it and that the
hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many
studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as
beneficial to older women.
2. In December 1991, I got a most terrible headache
while taking a class. I knew it wasn?t just a
migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I was
taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical
School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had
suffered a brain haemorrage. I was operated on by
their top brain surgeon. No aneurism was found and no
apparent reason for the ?bleed? as it?s commonly
called. Incidentally, when I later told my lawyer
that I had just had a brain operation, he quipped ?Did
they find one?? Goanetters might share the same
sentiment.....
3. I was, of course, greatly impressed at all the
great medical technology that had saved my life and
brain. Others on the same floor as me were either in
a coma or in a vegetative state. My daughter, who was
herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me,
somewhat skeptical of medical ?science? as the total
answer, ?Mom, it?s your voodoo (prayers and hope)
against theirs.?
4. After recovery, I was sent to the top neurologist
at UCSF who specialized in headaches, especially
migraines. It turned out that he had presented a
paper at a medical conference not even a year before,
cautioning giving hormone replacement therapy (HRT) to
women with migraine and advising that certain cautions
should be taken because there was a higher risk of
stroke in such women. Obviously, my gynecologist was
not aware of the latest in neurological research. The
UCSF neurosurgeon and neurologist recommended that I
stop HRT. I changed gynecologists, naturally.
5. Subsequent research has shown that hormone
replacement therapy causes strokes and even heart
attacks in many women, not just those with a history
of migraine. It has been largely discontinued, I'm
told. HRT is also not recommended for women with
breast and other gynecological cancers many of which
are related to higher estrogen levels.

Moral of the story: the ?latest research? might turn
out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to rush
to judgement and give up operations for cancer just
because the latest research says this or that, is not
half wrong.
My life-threatening situation arose because the
gynecologist didn?t pay attention to the neurologist.
Now, if defenders of our resident Goanet gynecologist,
Gilbert, were to pay respectful attention to our
resident Goanet neurologist, Santosh, who knows, we
may well be on the way to achieving peace and amity on
Goanet
..
Filomena


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Santosh Helekar
2006-09-24 16:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Dear Filomena,

I commend you on your excellent take on the tentative
and provisional nature of some of the findings of
medical research, and on the fallibility medical
professionals. Thanks for relating your personal story
about the adverse effects of hormone replacement
therapy.

On a personal note, I am impressed by your keen
observational skills in commenting on the decent
professional practice of insinuating in public forums
that a professional colleague is a pseudo-scientist. A
minor correction though is that Gilbert is a
distinguished radiation oncologist, who I believe, is
board-certified in Therapeutic Radiology, and I am a
neuroscientist.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Filomena Giese
While about a dozen Goanet argu-pros have been
debating whether Santosh is an indecent, mo-f
in'
Post by Filomena Giese
(to
use a traditional American epithet that deserves to
be
added to the Goanet lexicon of insults) atheist, and
a
lamebrain pseudo-scientist, daring to question the
latest research quoted by Gilbert about cancer
operations as indisputable fact and good medical
practice, the rest of us 6,990 readers have been
thinking
. and gearing up to contribute our 2 cents'
Post by Filomena Giese
worth.
Gilbert was talking about how the latest cancer
research about the effect of operations on tumors
validates the old kaneos that operations spread
cancer.
My own experience with "the latest research" is just
the opposite. I learned the hard way that the
"latest
research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and
is
not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth. Here's
1. In July 1991, I went for my yearly checkup
and pap
test to a gynecologist/obstetrician considered one
of
the top ones in the San Francisco-Berkeley area. As
I
was almost 51 and going through menopause, he said
that I should be on hormone replacement. I
questioned
this as I had no bad symptoms except for some mild
sleeplessness. I also told him what was already in
my
medical history, that I was a lifelong migraine
sufferer and extremely sensitive to hormones and
other
medications. He insisted that "the latest research"
showed that it would help me in other ways like
preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis. I did
report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by
but he said that I would get used to it and that the
hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many
studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as
beneficial to older women.
2. In December 1991, I got a most terrible
headache
while taking a class. I knew it wasn't just a
migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I
was
taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical
School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had
suffered a brain haemorrage. I was operated on by
their top brain surgeon. No aneurism was found and
no
apparent reason for the "bleed" as it's commonly
called. Incidentally, when I later told my lawyer
that I had just had a brain operation, he quipped
"Did
they find one?" Goanetters might share the same
sentiment.....
3. I was, of course, greatly impressed at all
the
great medical technology that had saved my life and
brain. Others on the same floor as me were either
in
a coma or in a vegetative state. My daughter, who
was
herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me,
somewhat skeptical of medical "science" as the total
answer, "Mom, it's your voodoo (prayers and hope)
against theirs."
4. After recovery, I was sent to the top
neurologist
at UCSF who specialized in headaches, especially
migraines. It turned out that he had presented a
paper at a medical conference not even a year
before,
cautioning giving hormone replacement therapy (HRT)
to
women with migraine and advising that certain
cautions
should be taken because there was a higher risk of
stroke in such women. Obviously, my gynecologist
was
not aware of the latest in neurological research.
The
UCSF neurosurgeon and neurologist recommended that I
stop HRT. I changed gynecologists, naturally.
5. Subsequent research has shown that hormone
replacement therapy causes strokes and even heart
attacks in many women, not just those with a history
of migraine. It has been largely discontinued, I'm
told. HRT is also not recommended for women with
breast and other gynecological cancers many of which
are related to higher estrogen levels.
Moral of the story: the "latest research" might
turn
out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to
rush
to judgement and give up operations for cancer just
because the latest research says this or that, is
not
half wrong.
My life-threatening situation arose because the
gynecologist didn't pay attention to the
neurologist.
Now, if defenders of our resident Goanet
gynecologist,
Gilbert, were to pay respectful attention to our
resident Goanet neurologist, Santosh, who knows, we
may well be on the way to achieving peace and amity
on
Goanet
..
Post by Filomena Giese
Filomena
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-09-27 00:06:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi Filomena,

With all due respects to you, what you say, that I said .... is not what I said that you say. In fact it is just the opposite.

You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has not thanked you for the support. Your statements (below) totally contradict the hard facts of the "gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that medical and other sciences present through research and publications in "peer reviewed" journals. The contrarian view is the point Fred, others and I have been making under the thread / title of "Another Kaneo .. or is it .. Hot Air?" which was an offshoot of "Science as a religion". All of us have had little success getting our point across. Perhaps with your personal story and specially the "moral of the story" some of our readers will be more aware of what we have been writing.

Your comment, "Santosh, in warning us not to rush to judgement and give up operations for cancer" (second line last paragraph), as a neutral reader of this discussion / thread, shows what a "fine job" Santosh has been doing with distorting my writings. In none of my posts did I state that there was no role for the surgeon or surgery in cancer management. In fact in my very first post, I clearly state that surgery has moved from radical / aggressive surgery to organ-sparing / conservative surgery. And more recently I stated we have gone from Open Biopsy to Needle Biopsy.

Thank you for sharing your personal medical story with us. It brings home many mistakes that physicians and researchers make. Oops! Did I say mistakes by physicians and researchers? Mistakes are supposedly only confined to religion; And physicians are supposed to correct those religion mistakes. Should we give the padres equal time and space to opine on the "dangerous (medical) myth and is not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth" (quoting you)?
From your post below, you have a very smart daughter. As a budding knowledgeable doctor at UCSF, she has conceptually bridged the "voodoo and prayers" of (your) religion with "voodoo and prayers" of medical science and your doctors. :=)) As a doctor after my heart, another adage your daughter may find useful is: "A lot more often than we realize, patients live in spite of their doctors". And we, the doctors, should Thank God for that.
Treatment choices lie somewhere in the midst of skepticism of multiple sources (corroboration) of scientific data. The treatment should be tailored to the patient; and not the patient to the scientific study. No doctor should "insists" on what their patient should do. The physicians' role is to present the facts and information of the various options to the patient. And let the patient make the choice. After-all it is their life. The doctors may make a good faith recommendation, - the same that they would make to a very close relative. The patient also should be encouraged to do their own reading and to ask questions. As your case demonstrates, the patient, (not the doctor), that pays the ultimate price and lives with the choice / decisions and consequences. I hope you politely informed your original gynecologist what happened to you. That may be the best education he / she may receive and that would benefit their next patients. Good scientists and doctors are always humble and open to learn from experience, especially the untoward ones.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Filomena Giese wrote:

My own experience with "the latest research" is just the opposite. I learned the hard way that the "latest research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and is not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth.

He (gynecologist) insisted that "the latest research" showed that it would help me in other ways like preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis.... I did report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by but he said that I would get used to it and that the hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as beneficial to older women. In December 1991, I got a most terrible headache while taking a class. I knew it wasn't just a migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I was taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had suffered a brain haemorrage.

My daughter, who was herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me, somewhat skeptical of medical "science" as the total answer, "Mom, it's your voodoo (prayers and hope) against theirs."

Moral of the story: the "latest research" might turn out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to rush to judgement and give up operations for cancer just because the latest research says this or that, is not half wrong. My life-threatening situation arose because the gynecologist didn't pay attention to the neurologist.


-------- Santosh Helekar wrote:
I commend you on your excellent take on the tentative and provisional nature of some of the findings of medical research, and on the fallibility medical professionals. Thanks for relating your personal story about the adverse effects of hormone replacement therapy.
Santosh Helekar
2006-09-27 05:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has not
thanked you for the support. Your statements
(below) totally contradict the hard facts of the
"gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that medical
and other sciences present through research and
publications in "peer reviewed" journals.
I am sorry. This is not accurate. I have already
thanked Filomena for an excellent analysis. The rest
of what is written in the above post is also not an
accurate and fair characterization of my views. To
find out what my views are please read my response to
Filomena, and all my prior posts on this issue. I have
written extensively on the self-corrective nature of
science over the years. I humbly request Gilbert not
to put words in my mouth or to point to Frederick's or
anyone else's mischaracterization of my views. And I
ask readers not to rely on someone else's opinion of
what I said or implied. I trust Gilbert would try to
understand and respect this simple principle of any
public discourse.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mario Goveia
2006-09-28 18:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has
not thanked you for the support. Your statements
(below) totally contradict the hard facts of the
"gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that
medical and other sciences present through
research and publications in "peer reviewed"
journals.
I am sorry. This is not accurate. I have already
thanked Filomena for an excellent analysis.
Mario observes:
Santosh thanked Filomena for swallowing his false
interpretation of Gilbert's comments in his post
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
hook, line and sinker, obviously without critically
reading what Gilbert had originally posted in
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html
Post by Santosh Helekar
The rest of what is written in the above post is
also not an accurate and fair characterization of
my views. To find out what my views are please read
my response to Filomena, and all my prior posts on
this issue. I have written extensively on the self-
corrective nature of science over the years. I
humbly request Gilbert not to put words in my mouth
or to point to Frederick's or anyone else's
mischaracterization of my views. And I ask readers
not to rely on someone else's opinion of what I
said or implied. I trust Gilbert would try to
understand and respect this simple principle of any
public discourse.
Mario observes:
The only one mischaracterizing and obfuscating his own
previously written views, and continuing to do so, is
Santosh. No one is asking anyone to rely on anyone
else's representations. Just the opposite. I am
asking people to critically read what Gilbert and
Santosh said in their own words.
It is very important for readers to first carefully
read Gilbert's original post in the URL above, and
then compare this with Santosh's response shown in the
other URL above.
Readers then need to read Kevin's post
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048373.html
where he gave Santosh a chance to reconsider.
Rather than do so, Santosh responded to Kevin in
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048416.html
where he REPEATED his false allegations of what
Gilbert had posted.
Readers also need to keep in mind that the topic here
is cancer. Gilbert is an experienced Board Certified
oncologist being accused by Santosh with the following
opening statement, "The post appended below propagates
dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer
treatment in this public forum."
Santosh describes himself in another forum as follows:
"Baylor College of Medicine in Houston is a habitat
for all kinds of minds, where mine got me a Ph.D. in
brain science, working me long and hard trying to
understand what is wrong with the brain cells of mice
that are genetically prone to have epileptic seizures.
There, my mind, with more time in the postdoctoral
slammer, even eked out a basic discovery relevant to
how normal brain cells develop mature communication
channels. There, I could even become a certified
armchair thinker, and have my thoughts packaged as a
bona fide theory to explain how literal sparks become
figurative ones." [end of excerpt]
While I have no doubt that Santosh is an excellent
researcher in his field, his field is not cancer.
So, who would YOU consult if you found you had cancer?
Gilbert, or Santosh?
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-09-29 00:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,

Thank you for your polite response. I fully concur with your statement below about the "self-corrective nature of science". The question I have for you (and others) is: Are not other fields like religion, politics, history, government etc. also "self-correcting" over time? So we cannot condemn medicine / science for its past mistakes, because it self-corrects. Yet, can we keep constantly condemning religion, other fields and major institutions for their historical mistakes, as you and a few Goanetters tend to do. I do not want your rebuttal. I just request your consideration of this point when you (and others) stand on the soap-box.

I am sure you realize, that until medicine self-corrects, perhaps in a decade or so, a lot of patients are the victims of flawed treatments and recommendations in the interim. Just look at the large number of drugs that have been pulled off the shelf or the changing medical practice patterns in various diseases. So medicine / science, as well as we physicians and scientists, do not have a monopoly on self-righteousness and wisdom.

Mario quoted you verbatim (with web links) in his response to Filomena. Hence, my line of reasoning was not your exact words; but rather what an unbiased reader understood from your parsed writings? Either our intelligent Filomena had a problem understanding your English / writings. Or she was demagoging the subject and me by implying, that I was promoting that, we should do away with surgery in cancer management.

In fact, you were so good in your writings on this subject that I was confused by what you were trying to say. You condemned me for reporting on the mice experiment that suggest surgery alters the immune system and making the cancer behave more aggressively. To quote you, I was: "Propagates dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this public forum."
Then you went ahead and directed readers to many references on exactly similar findings (of suppressed immune markers after surgery) in humans. So this supurlo Goenkar (moi) did not know whether to laugh or to cry. Similarly you provided a link about the near-absolute need to do a biopsy to diagnose / confirm a new cancer. This is something that one did not need a rocket scientist to validate.:=)) That is why it looked to me like a "fuggdi". :=))

Kind Regards, GL

------------ Santosh Helekar

I have written extensively on the self-corrective nature of science over the years.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-01 04:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So this supurlo Goenkar (moi) did not know whether to
laugh or to cry. Similarly you provided a link about
the near-absolute need to do a biopsy to diagnose /
confirm a new cancer. This is something that one did
not need a rocket scientist to validate.:=)) That is
why it looked to me like a "fuggdi". :=))
Hi Gilbert,

It is very clear that you and I have a strong
disagreement about your post on the so-called
grandmother?s kaannee regarding cancer treatment. If
you really want to know who is right, I could ask a
well-recognized Goan cancer surgeon and researcher,
who is very knowledgeable about this issue, to comment
on that post of yours, and then post his commentary on
Goanet. Do you want me to do that? Please let me know.
Regarding your other points, my comments are
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The question I have for you (and others) is: Are not
other fields like religion, politics, history,
government etc. also "self-correcting" over time?
A self-correcting field changes its beliefs and
assumptions based on objective evidence. In the above
list only history satisfies this definition with any
degree of consistency. Religion, especially, is almost
never self-correcting by its very nature.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So we cannot condemn medicine / science for its past
mistakes, because it self-corrects.
Who claimed that we cannot condemn medicine/science
for anything? My view is that we absolutely must
condemn medicine/science for their past and present
wrongdoings.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Yet, can we keep constantly condemning religion,
other >fields and major institutions for their
historical >mistakes, as you and a few Goanetters tend
to do.
My view is that we have to condemn these fields, as
well, for their past and present wrongdoings. We
cannot give them special immunity.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So medicine / science, as well as we physicians and
scientists, do not have a monopoly on
self-righteousness and wisdom.
Who claimed that they did?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Mario quoted you verbatim (with web links) in his
response to Filomena.
I don?t think Mario understands this issue very well.
I would humbly request you to ignore whatever he is
saying about me in general.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Hence, my line of reasoning was not your exact words;
but rather what an unbiased reader understood from
your parsed writings?
Please forgive me for being blunt. But let me
respectfully submit to you that your line of reasoning
as far as my views are concerned is neither unbiased
nor accurate.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Either our intelligent Filomena had a problem
understanding your English / writings.
Filomena is an extremely smart, perceptive and
knowledgeable lady. She understood exactly what I was
saying and implying.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
To quote you, I was: "Propagates dangerous myths and
misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this
public forum."
Sorry, but I have to stand by my assertion. Again, I
respectfully suggest to you that if you give me
permission to ask a Goan cancer surgery expert to
comment on your post, we can settle this issue once
and for all. Do I have your permission?

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2006-09-18 05:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Dear Roland,

An interesting question indeed. Sometime ago, I was
mulling over whether Goans are predominantly
conservative or liberal as per the loosely used
meaning of the terms.

Goa itself in bifurcating into two different
world-views. There is North Goa and then there is
South Goa, there are the central parts of Goa
connected by the NH17 and then there are the
hinterlands and far-flung talukas like Sanguem and
Canacona, which are quite unique in their perspective.
Within these two worlds exist difference formed and
defined by exposure to media, external influences,
education, city-life and parochialism.

Other than Wendell Rodrigues, I don't think there are
too many homosexual men or women leading openly gay
lifestyles. I think Wendell is courageous to take on
this flame torch on behalf of his tribe.

I don't even know if a word for homosexuality exists
in Konkani. My parents and in-laws refer to men who
might be gay using the Portuguese word "effeminade".
So in response to your question, in my experience
Goans are still not very exposed to it.

Selma
------------------------------------
Post by Roland Francis
With regard to Kevin's link to the Lutheran
website/debate on
homsexuality acceptance and the matter of celibacy
(it truly is a mind
As Goans, what is our outlook towards
homosexuality.
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Mario Goveia
2006-09-19 15:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by saligao
Hi Selma,
Wendell has been a beacon of hope for so many in a
land steeped in
hypocrisy and prejudice. He made international news
a few years ago and
continues to 'walk the walk' for gay rights and the
environment in Goa.
http://www.marriagedebate.com/2004/02/gay-marriage-debate-goes-global-slowly
Post by saligao
.htm
However, I'm not so sure about our new Bush-clone PM
Steven Harper's plans
to re-open the same-sex marriage issue that has been
settled by the highest
court in the land.
http://www.equal-marriage.ca/resource.php?id=517
Mario responds:
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
I'm so glad that Kevin and Selma are ecstatic that
Wendell has been a "beacon of hope" for gays in Goa.
I, too, am glad for all of them, as it must be
difficult to be gay in straight-laced Goa.
However, as usual Kevin, who preaches tolerance and
conciliation snidely interspersed with exactly the
opposite, takes this opportumity to obfuscate the
debate about gay marriage in the US and Canada.
Apparently in Canada, as in Britain, any time their
leader happens to have an opinion that crosses paths
with the US-administration, they are referred to by
their political opponents as "Bush-clones". No such
reference is made when they disagree with the US
administration.
I don't particularly care what the Canadians do so I
will restrict my remarks to the US.
Marriage in most of the US is defined as the formal
legal union of a man and a woman, not a man and a man,
or a woman and a woman, or a man and several women, or
several women and a man, or a grown-up and a child, or
a human with an non-human, all options that would open
up under anti-discrimination laws if the definition is
changed for one group. One US state, Massachussetts,
"recognizes same sex marriages", other states
recognize "civil unions". This has already led to
lawsuits by polygamists demanding the same privileges.
Those who fit the other definitions, have the ability
to enter into legal contracts with any content they
choose to include, generally referred to as "domestic
partnership" agreements or "civil unions". Even
non-gay friends who live together out of convenience
can do so. They just cannot call it "marriage",
because large percentages of Americans of all kinds,
including flaming liberals on everything else, have
legally opined through the democratic process that
they do not want the traditional and legal definition
of marriage changed.
It's as simple as that.
Carvalho
2006-09-20 04:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,

Why do I detect an undertone of sarcasm in your post?
If not, why else would "beacon of hope" be in inverted
commas in your message. Your post and that of Dominic
Fernandes, to me reeks of homophobia.

I don't pretend to understand homosexuality but having
known so many homosexual men, some of whom I consider
very good friends, I don't sit in judgment of it. What
goes on between two consenting adults is their own
business.

Selma
---------------------------------------------
Post by Mario Goveia
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as
they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
I'm so glad that Kevin and Selma are ecstatic that
Wendell has been a "beacon of hope" for gays in Goa.
I, too, am glad for all of them, as it must be
difficult to be gay in straight-laced Goa.
__________________________________________________
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-09-20 00:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Folks,
I am sure that a lot of you have noticed that there
are some people here who are unable to debate any
subject without turning to religion. When they cannot
introduce religion into a debate, they switch to
comparing the country they live in with Canada or the
UK.

What is really sad is that some of them deliberately
set out to lie about the country they live in.

I started to read what Mario had to write about the
good ol' USA but had to stop reading after a few lines
as, in the USA, it is quite legal for an adult to
marry a 14 year old child. I had earlier pointed this
out to him on another forum.

As far as Goan homophobes are concerned, I have yet to
meet one outside Goa.

Mervyn3.0
Post by Mario Goveia
However, as usual Kevin, who preaches tolerance and
conciliation snidely interspersed with exactly the
opposite, takes this opportumity to obfuscate the
debate about gay marriage in the US and Canada.
Apparently in Canada, as in Britain, any time their
leader happens to have an opinion that crosses paths
with the US-administration, they are referred to by
their political opponents as "Bush-clones". No such
reference is made when they disagree with the US
administration.
I don't particularly care what the Canadians do so I
will restrict my remarks to the US.
Marriage in most of the US is defined as the formal
legal union of a man and a woman, not a man and a
man, or a woman and a woman, or a man and several
women, or several women and a man, or a grown-up
and a child, or a human with an non-human, all
options that would open up under anti->
discrimination laws if the definition is changed
for one group. One US state,
Massachussetts,"recognizes same sex marriages",
other states recognize "civil unions". This has
already led to lawsuits by polygamists demanding
the same privileges.
Those who fit the other definitions, have the
ability
to enter into legal contracts with any content they
choose to include, generally referred to as
"domestic
partnership" agreements or "civil unions". Even
non-gay friends who live together out of convenience
can do so. They just cannot call it "marriage",
because large percentages of Americans of all kinds,
including flaming liberals on everything else, have
legally opined through the democratic process that
they do not want the traditional and legal
definition of marriage changed.
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Bosco D'Mello
2006-09-20 05:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Your post and that of Dominic Fernandes, to me reeks of homophobia.
RESPONSE: From Webster:

One entry found for homophobia.

Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or
homosexuals

Kevin enquired if there was a Konkani word for Homosexual / Homosexuality.
Domnic Fernandes provided a word that he believes fits the terminology. Now
you state his post is homophobic ? What is your rationale ? Why condemn
Domnic's post ? It would have been appropriate if you had provided a
translated word(s) instead of thrusting an undesirable halo on Domnic's post.

It is true that some societies have become gay-friendly (for want of a better
word) and we have assimilated homosexuality as part of our ideology. Canada is
at the forefront of gay rights as Kevin earlier explained to the angst of the
Holy See.

- Bosco
Toronto, CA
Carvalho
2006-09-20 17:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Dear Darling Bosco,

It could be that I jumped the gun on Dominic (no puns
here) but in all my years as a Goan, I've never heard
this word used. If indeed this is a Goan word to
describe homosexuality, then how would one describe
heterosexuality? Potmarob? Because all you can see
protruding from Goan men, are their ample "pots". :))

Selma
Post by Carvalho
Your post and that of Dominic Fernandes, to me
reeks of homophobia.
One entry found for homophobia.
Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination
against homosexuality or
homosexuals
Kevin enquired if there was a Konkani word for
Homosexual / Homosexuality.
Domnic Fernandes provided a word that he believes
fits the terminology. Now
you state his post is homophobic ? What is your
rationale ? Why condemn
Domnic's post ? It would have been appropriate if
you had provided a
translated word(s) instead of thrusting an
undesirable halo on Domnic's post.
__________________________________________________
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Bosco D'Mello
2006-09-21 04:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Darling Bosco,
It could be that I jumped the gun on Dominic (no puns here) but in
all my years as a Goan, I've never heard this word used. If indeed
this is a Goan word to describe homosexuality, then how would one
describe heterosexuality? Potmarob? Because all you can see protruding
from Goan men, are their ample "pots". :))
Selma

RESPONSE: For starters shall we please follow Captain Morgan's filosawphee -
What happens below the deck, STAYS below the deck!

You have more than jumped the gun on this one. Besides your gaffe in the
earlier message, you have now acknowledged that you know all the Konkani words
there are to know. Viva !! A slug of Captain Morgan's to that.

Secondly you are forcefully shoving Domnic into the company of your off-key
but soloist brass player - who does the fingering and blowing without any
help. Domnic's talent is writing, with sincerity I might add. He is no brass
player.

Thirdly, I don't know which Goan men you were looking at when you saw
those "pots". Captain Morgan and his crew have labored to carry around a
chiselled 6-pack.

Let Konkani education - words, grammar, script run perennially.

Best - Bosco

PS. In all my years as a Goan, I never knew there was a place called Kamanwada
in Goa
Goa
2006-09-22 10:16:38 UTC
Permalink
EU procedures delaying issuance of passports, says Portuguese MP
NT Staff Reporter


Panaji, Sept 20: The general secretary of Portuguese Communist Party (PCP)
and the member of Portuguese Parliament, Mr Jeronimo de Souza today said
that the European Union has virtually turned Europe into a fortress and this
was the main reason for the delay in issuing Portuguese passports by the
Consulate of Portugal in Goa.

The PCP will intervene in this matter and communicate to the Portuguese
government, the views of Goans in this respect, he assured, adding that "the
PCP would do all that is possible to re-start the process of issuance of
Portuguese passports".

Mr de Souza also said that the PCP, the 85-year old party always supported
Goa in the demand for its liberation from the colonial rule. "Our struggle
against fascism in Portugal was no different from that in Goa, during the
Salazar regime," he maintained.

Stating that PCP was the only opposition political party that could survive
during the dictatorial rule of Salazar, Mr de Souza said that PCP is the
party of the people. He observed that Goa is a true friend of Portugal,
adding "In Portugal there is a saying that good friendships are made under
most difficult conditions."

The PCP general secretary said that Goa set an example for other colonies of
Portugal, to struggle for one's liberation, which was followed with great
success.

Mr de Souza who was earlier felicitated by the Goa state council of the
Communist Party of India (CPI) along with the PCP politburo member, Mr
Anjelo Alves, during a special function organised at the Institute Menezes
Braganza Hall, said that the delay in issuing Portuguese passports was not
entirely due to the bureaucratic reasons.

The commissioner for NRI affairs, Mr Eduardo Faleiro who was the chief guest
on the occasion said that colonialism is a crime against humanity, and added
that the new imperialism was being developed under the United States of
America.

"What is required is total and general nuclear disarmament and removal of
all weapons of mass destruction across the world, democracy in international
relations and respect for human rights including economic and social
rights," Mr Faleiro opined, pointing out that the peace loving people of
the world should coordinate their strategies in this direction. "A luta
continua" he pointed out, meaning the struggle continues.

Mr Faleiro also said that the human rights should also include the right of
development, making an appeal to the Western countries to maintain racial
and cultural integrity.

The city mayor, Mr Tony Rodrigues, in his speech said that the Portuguese
Consulate in the state should continue issuing Portuguese passports so that
the Goan people may get better opportunities to travel to Portugal and other
parts of Europe for employment.

The general secretary of the Goa state CPI, Mr Christopher Fonseca, in his
welcome address said that the 450 years of Portuguese domination in Goa
should not restrict us from recognising that the Portuguese have left an
indelible mark on the language, culture, art, architecture, laws and even
sports in the state, as also on the local socio-economic and political
institutions, in totality. He also acknowledged that Goa has been directly
benefited from the Uniform Civil Code.

Earlier, the CPI secretary for the international department, Mr Pallav Sen
Gupta introduced. Former IAS officer, Mr Albano Couto, well-known
educationist, Prof Suresh Amonkar, freedom fighter, Mr Shridhar Tamba,
senior journalist, Flaviano Dias and veteran trade union leader, Dr Luiza
Pereira were present on the dias.

A condolence motion was also passed on the occasion paying homage to all the
known and unknown people who fought for the liberation of Goa.
Filomena Giese
2006-09-23 05:56:06 UTC
Permalink
While about a dozen Goanet argu-pros have been
debating whether Santosh is an indecent, mo-f
in? (to
use a traditional American epithet that deserves to be
added to the Goanet lexicon of insults) atheist, and a
lamebrain pseudo-scientist, daring to question the
latest research quoted by Gilbert about cancer
operations as indisputable fact and good medical
practice, the rest of us 6,990 readers have been
thinking
. and gearing up to contribute our 2 cents?
worth.
Gilbert was talking about how the latest cancer
research about the effect of operations on tumors
validates the old kaneos that operations spread
cancer.
My own experience with ?the latest research? is just
the opposite. I learned the hard way that the "latest
research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and is
not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth. Here?s
how my story goes:
1. In July 1991, I went for my yearly checkup and pap
test to a gynecologist/obstetrician considered one of
the top ones in the San Francisco-Berkeley area. As I
was almost 51 and going through menopause, he said
that I should be on hormone replacement. I questioned
this as I had no bad symptoms except for some mild
sleeplessness. I also told him what was already in my
medical history, that I was a lifelong migraine
sufferer and extremely sensitive to hormones and other
medications. He insisted that ?the latest research?
showed that it would help me in other ways like
preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis. I did
report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by
but he said that I would get used to it and that the
hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many
studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as
beneficial to older women.
2. In December 1991, I got a most terrible headache
while taking a class. I knew it wasn?t just a
migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I was
taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical
School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had
suffered a brain haemorrage. I was operated on by
their top brain surgeon. No aneurism was found and no
apparent reason for the ?bleed? as it?s commonly
called. Incidentally, when I later told my lawyer
that I had just had a brain operation, he quipped ?Did
they find one?? Goanetters might share the same
sentiment.....
3. I was, of course, greatly impressed at all the
great medical technology that had saved my life and
brain. Others on the same floor as me were either in
a coma or in a vegetative state. My daughter, who was
herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me,
somewhat skeptical of medical ?science? as the total
answer, ?Mom, it?s your voodoo (prayers and hope)
against theirs.?
4. After recovery, I was sent to the top neurologist
at UCSF who specialized in headaches, especially
migraines. It turned out that he had presented a
paper at a medical conference not even a year before,
cautioning giving hormone replacement therapy (HRT) to
women with migraine and advising that certain cautions
should be taken because there was a higher risk of
stroke in such women. Obviously, my gynecologist was
not aware of the latest in neurological research. The
UCSF neurosurgeon and neurologist recommended that I
stop HRT. I changed gynecologists, naturally.
5. Subsequent research has shown that hormone
replacement therapy causes strokes and even heart
attacks in many women, not just those with a history
of migraine. It has been largely discontinued, I'm
told. HRT is also not recommended for women with
breast and other gynecological cancers many of which
are related to higher estrogen levels.

Moral of the story: the ?latest research? might turn
out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to rush
to judgement and give up operations for cancer just
because the latest research says this or that, is not
half wrong.
My life-threatening situation arose because the
gynecologist didn?t pay attention to the neurologist.
Now, if defenders of our resident Goanet gynecologist,
Gilbert, were to pay respectful attention to our
resident Goanet neurologist, Santosh, who knows, we
may well be on the way to achieving peace and amity on
Goanet
..
Filomena


__________________________________________________
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Santosh Helekar
2006-09-24 16:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Dear Filomena,

I commend you on your excellent take on the tentative
and provisional nature of some of the findings of
medical research, and on the fallibility medical
professionals. Thanks for relating your personal story
about the adverse effects of hormone replacement
therapy.

On a personal note, I am impressed by your keen
observational skills in commenting on the decent
professional practice of insinuating in public forums
that a professional colleague is a pseudo-scientist. A
minor correction though is that Gilbert is a
distinguished radiation oncologist, who I believe, is
board-certified in Therapeutic Radiology, and I am a
neuroscientist.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Filomena Giese
While about a dozen Goanet argu-pros have been
debating whether Santosh is an indecent, mo-f
in'
Post by Filomena Giese
(to
use a traditional American epithet that deserves to
be
added to the Goanet lexicon of insults) atheist, and
a
lamebrain pseudo-scientist, daring to question the
latest research quoted by Gilbert about cancer
operations as indisputable fact and good medical
practice, the rest of us 6,990 readers have been
thinking
. and gearing up to contribute our 2 cents'
Post by Filomena Giese
worth.
Gilbert was talking about how the latest cancer
research about the effect of operations on tumors
validates the old kaneos that operations spread
cancer.
My own experience with "the latest research" is just
the opposite. I learned the hard way that the
"latest
research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and
is
not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth. Here's
1. In July 1991, I went for my yearly checkup
and pap
test to a gynecologist/obstetrician considered one
of
the top ones in the San Francisco-Berkeley area. As
I
was almost 51 and going through menopause, he said
that I should be on hormone replacement. I
questioned
this as I had no bad symptoms except for some mild
sleeplessness. I also told him what was already in
my
medical history, that I was a lifelong migraine
sufferer and extremely sensitive to hormones and
other
medications. He insisted that "the latest research"
showed that it would help me in other ways like
preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis. I did
report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by
but he said that I would get used to it and that the
hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many
studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as
beneficial to older women.
2. In December 1991, I got a most terrible
headache
while taking a class. I knew it wasn't just a
migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I
was
taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical
School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had
suffered a brain haemorrage. I was operated on by
their top brain surgeon. No aneurism was found and
no
apparent reason for the "bleed" as it's commonly
called. Incidentally, when I later told my lawyer
that I had just had a brain operation, he quipped
"Did
they find one?" Goanetters might share the same
sentiment.....
3. I was, of course, greatly impressed at all
the
great medical technology that had saved my life and
brain. Others on the same floor as me were either
in
a coma or in a vegetative state. My daughter, who
was
herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me,
somewhat skeptical of medical "science" as the total
answer, "Mom, it's your voodoo (prayers and hope)
against theirs."
4. After recovery, I was sent to the top
neurologist
at UCSF who specialized in headaches, especially
migraines. It turned out that he had presented a
paper at a medical conference not even a year
before,
cautioning giving hormone replacement therapy (HRT)
to
women with migraine and advising that certain
cautions
should be taken because there was a higher risk of
stroke in such women. Obviously, my gynecologist
was
not aware of the latest in neurological research.
The
UCSF neurosurgeon and neurologist recommended that I
stop HRT. I changed gynecologists, naturally.
5. Subsequent research has shown that hormone
replacement therapy causes strokes and even heart
attacks in many women, not just those with a history
of migraine. It has been largely discontinued, I'm
told. HRT is also not recommended for women with
breast and other gynecological cancers many of which
are related to higher estrogen levels.
Moral of the story: the "latest research" might
turn
out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to
rush
to judgement and give up operations for cancer just
because the latest research says this or that, is
not
half wrong.
My life-threatening situation arose because the
gynecologist didn't pay attention to the
neurologist.
Now, if defenders of our resident Goanet
gynecologist,
Gilbert, were to pay respectful attention to our
resident Goanet neurologist, Santosh, who knows, we
may well be on the way to achieving peace and amity
on
Goanet
..
Post by Filomena Giese
Filomena
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-09-27 00:06:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi Filomena,

With all due respects to you, what you say, that I said .... is not what I said that you say. In fact it is just the opposite.

You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has not thanked you for the support. Your statements (below) totally contradict the hard facts of the "gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that medical and other sciences present through research and publications in "peer reviewed" journals. The contrarian view is the point Fred, others and I have been making under the thread / title of "Another Kaneo .. or is it .. Hot Air?" which was an offshoot of "Science as a religion". All of us have had little success getting our point across. Perhaps with your personal story and specially the "moral of the story" some of our readers will be more aware of what we have been writing.

Your comment, "Santosh, in warning us not to rush to judgement and give up operations for cancer" (second line last paragraph), as a neutral reader of this discussion / thread, shows what a "fine job" Santosh has been doing with distorting my writings. In none of my posts did I state that there was no role for the surgeon or surgery in cancer management. In fact in my very first post, I clearly state that surgery has moved from radical / aggressive surgery to organ-sparing / conservative surgery. And more recently I stated we have gone from Open Biopsy to Needle Biopsy.

Thank you for sharing your personal medical story with us. It brings home many mistakes that physicians and researchers make. Oops! Did I say mistakes by physicians and researchers? Mistakes are supposedly only confined to religion; And physicians are supposed to correct those religion mistakes. Should we give the padres equal time and space to opine on the "dangerous (medical) myth and is not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth" (quoting you)?
From your post below, you have a very smart daughter. As a budding knowledgeable doctor at UCSF, she has conceptually bridged the "voodoo and prayers" of (your) religion with "voodoo and prayers" of medical science and your doctors. :=)) As a doctor after my heart, another adage your daughter may find useful is: "A lot more often than we realize, patients live in spite of their doctors". And we, the doctors, should Thank God for that.
Treatment choices lie somewhere in the midst of skepticism of multiple sources (corroboration) of scientific data. The treatment should be tailored to the patient; and not the patient to the scientific study. No doctor should "insists" on what their patient should do. The physicians' role is to present the facts and information of the various options to the patient. And let the patient make the choice. After-all it is their life. The doctors may make a good faith recommendation, - the same that they would make to a very close relative. The patient also should be encouraged to do their own reading and to ask questions. As your case demonstrates, the patient, (not the doctor), that pays the ultimate price and lives with the choice / decisions and consequences. I hope you politely informed your original gynecologist what happened to you. That may be the best education he / she may receive and that would benefit their next patients. Good scientists and doctors are always humble and open to learn from experience, especially the untoward ones.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Filomena Giese wrote:

My own experience with "the latest research" is just the opposite. I learned the hard way that the "latest research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and is not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth.

He (gynecologist) insisted that "the latest research" showed that it would help me in other ways like preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis.... I did report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by but he said that I would get used to it and that the hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as beneficial to older women. In December 1991, I got a most terrible headache while taking a class. I knew it wasn't just a migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I was taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had suffered a brain haemorrage.

My daughter, who was herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me, somewhat skeptical of medical "science" as the total answer, "Mom, it's your voodoo (prayers and hope) against theirs."

Moral of the story: the "latest research" might turn out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to rush to judgement and give up operations for cancer just because the latest research says this or that, is not half wrong. My life-threatening situation arose because the gynecologist didn't pay attention to the neurologist.


-------- Santosh Helekar wrote:
I commend you on your excellent take on the tentative and provisional nature of some of the findings of medical research, and on the fallibility medical professionals. Thanks for relating your personal story about the adverse effects of hormone replacement therapy.
Santosh Helekar
2006-09-27 05:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has not
thanked you for the support. Your statements
(below) totally contradict the hard facts of the
"gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that medical
and other sciences present through research and
publications in "peer reviewed" journals.
I am sorry. This is not accurate. I have already
thanked Filomena for an excellent analysis. The rest
of what is written in the above post is also not an
accurate and fair characterization of my views. To
find out what my views are please read my response to
Filomena, and all my prior posts on this issue. I have
written extensively on the self-corrective nature of
science over the years. I humbly request Gilbert not
to put words in my mouth or to point to Frederick's or
anyone else's mischaracterization of my views. And I
ask readers not to rely on someone else's opinion of
what I said or implied. I trust Gilbert would try to
understand and respect this simple principle of any
public discourse.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mario Goveia
2006-09-28 18:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has
not thanked you for the support. Your statements
(below) totally contradict the hard facts of the
"gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that
medical and other sciences present through
research and publications in "peer reviewed"
journals.
I am sorry. This is not accurate. I have already
thanked Filomena for an excellent analysis.
Mario observes:
Santosh thanked Filomena for swallowing his false
interpretation of Gilbert's comments in his post
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
hook, line and sinker, obviously without critically
reading what Gilbert had originally posted in
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html
Post by Santosh Helekar
The rest of what is written in the above post is
also not an accurate and fair characterization of
my views. To find out what my views are please read
my response to Filomena, and all my prior posts on
this issue. I have written extensively on the self-
corrective nature of science over the years. I
humbly request Gilbert not to put words in my mouth
or to point to Frederick's or anyone else's
mischaracterization of my views. And I ask readers
not to rely on someone else's opinion of what I
said or implied. I trust Gilbert would try to
understand and respect this simple principle of any
public discourse.
Mario observes:
The only one mischaracterizing and obfuscating his own
previously written views, and continuing to do so, is
Santosh. No one is asking anyone to rely on anyone
else's representations. Just the opposite. I am
asking people to critically read what Gilbert and
Santosh said in their own words.
It is very important for readers to first carefully
read Gilbert's original post in the URL above, and
then compare this with Santosh's response shown in the
other URL above.
Readers then need to read Kevin's post
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048373.html
where he gave Santosh a chance to reconsider.
Rather than do so, Santosh responded to Kevin in
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048416.html
where he REPEATED his false allegations of what
Gilbert had posted.
Readers also need to keep in mind that the topic here
is cancer. Gilbert is an experienced Board Certified
oncologist being accused by Santosh with the following
opening statement, "The post appended below propagates
dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer
treatment in this public forum."
Santosh describes himself in another forum as follows:
"Baylor College of Medicine in Houston is a habitat
for all kinds of minds, where mine got me a Ph.D. in
brain science, working me long and hard trying to
understand what is wrong with the brain cells of mice
that are genetically prone to have epileptic seizures.
There, my mind, with more time in the postdoctoral
slammer, even eked out a basic discovery relevant to
how normal brain cells develop mature communication
channels. There, I could even become a certified
armchair thinker, and have my thoughts packaged as a
bona fide theory to explain how literal sparks become
figurative ones." [end of excerpt]
While I have no doubt that Santosh is an excellent
researcher in his field, his field is not cancer.
So, who would YOU consult if you found you had cancer?
Gilbert, or Santosh?
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-09-29 00:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,

Thank you for your polite response. I fully concur with your statement below about the "self-corrective nature of science". The question I have for you (and others) is: Are not other fields like religion, politics, history, government etc. also "self-correcting" over time? So we cannot condemn medicine / science for its past mistakes, because it self-corrects. Yet, can we keep constantly condemning religion, other fields and major institutions for their historical mistakes, as you and a few Goanetters tend to do. I do not want your rebuttal. I just request your consideration of this point when you (and others) stand on the soap-box.

I am sure you realize, that until medicine self-corrects, perhaps in a decade or so, a lot of patients are the victims of flawed treatments and recommendations in the interim. Just look at the large number of drugs that have been pulled off the shelf or the changing medical practice patterns in various diseases. So medicine / science, as well as we physicians and scientists, do not have a monopoly on self-righteousness and wisdom.

Mario quoted you verbatim (with web links) in his response to Filomena. Hence, my line of reasoning was not your exact words; but rather what an unbiased reader understood from your parsed writings? Either our intelligent Filomena had a problem understanding your English / writings. Or she was demagoging the subject and me by implying, that I was promoting that, we should do away with surgery in cancer management.

In fact, you were so good in your writings on this subject that I was confused by what you were trying to say. You condemned me for reporting on the mice experiment that suggest surgery alters the immune system and making the cancer behave more aggressively. To quote you, I was: "Propagates dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this public forum."
Then you went ahead and directed readers to many references on exactly similar findings (of suppressed immune markers after surgery) in humans. So this supurlo Goenkar (moi) did not know whether to laugh or to cry. Similarly you provided a link about the near-absolute need to do a biopsy to diagnose / confirm a new cancer. This is something that one did not need a rocket scientist to validate.:=)) That is why it looked to me like a "fuggdi". :=))

Kind Regards, GL

------------ Santosh Helekar

I have written extensively on the self-corrective nature of science over the years.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-01 04:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So this supurlo Goenkar (moi) did not know whether to
laugh or to cry. Similarly you provided a link about
the near-absolute need to do a biopsy to diagnose /
confirm a new cancer. This is something that one did
not need a rocket scientist to validate.:=)) That is
why it looked to me like a "fuggdi". :=))
Hi Gilbert,

It is very clear that you and I have a strong
disagreement about your post on the so-called
grandmother?s kaannee regarding cancer treatment. If
you really want to know who is right, I could ask a
well-recognized Goan cancer surgeon and researcher,
who is very knowledgeable about this issue, to comment
on that post of yours, and then post his commentary on
Goanet. Do you want me to do that? Please let me know.
Regarding your other points, my comments are
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The question I have for you (and others) is: Are not
other fields like religion, politics, history,
government etc. also "self-correcting" over time?
A self-correcting field changes its beliefs and
assumptions based on objective evidence. In the above
list only history satisfies this definition with any
degree of consistency. Religion, especially, is almost
never self-correcting by its very nature.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So we cannot condemn medicine / science for its past
mistakes, because it self-corrects.
Who claimed that we cannot condemn medicine/science
for anything? My view is that we absolutely must
condemn medicine/science for their past and present
wrongdoings.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Yet, can we keep constantly condemning religion,
other >fields and major institutions for their
historical >mistakes, as you and a few Goanetters tend
to do.
My view is that we have to condemn these fields, as
well, for their past and present wrongdoings. We
cannot give them special immunity.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So medicine / science, as well as we physicians and
scientists, do not have a monopoly on
self-righteousness and wisdom.
Who claimed that they did?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Mario quoted you verbatim (with web links) in his
response to Filomena.
I don?t think Mario understands this issue very well.
I would humbly request you to ignore whatever he is
saying about me in general.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Hence, my line of reasoning was not your exact words;
but rather what an unbiased reader understood from
your parsed writings?
Please forgive me for being blunt. But let me
respectfully submit to you that your line of reasoning
as far as my views are concerned is neither unbiased
nor accurate.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Either our intelligent Filomena had a problem
understanding your English / writings.
Filomena is an extremely smart, perceptive and
knowledgeable lady. She understood exactly what I was
saying and implying.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
To quote you, I was: "Propagates dangerous myths and
misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this
public forum."
Sorry, but I have to stand by my assertion. Again, I
respectfully suggest to you that if you give me
permission to ask a Goan cancer surgery expert to
comment on your post, we can settle this issue once
and for all. Do I have your permission?

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2006-09-18 05:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Dear Roland,

An interesting question indeed. Sometime ago, I was
mulling over whether Goans are predominantly
conservative or liberal as per the loosely used
meaning of the terms.

Goa itself in bifurcating into two different
world-views. There is North Goa and then there is
South Goa, there are the central parts of Goa
connected by the NH17 and then there are the
hinterlands and far-flung talukas like Sanguem and
Canacona, which are quite unique in their perspective.
Within these two worlds exist difference formed and
defined by exposure to media, external influences,
education, city-life and parochialism.

Other than Wendell Rodrigues, I don't think there are
too many homosexual men or women leading openly gay
lifestyles. I think Wendell is courageous to take on
this flame torch on behalf of his tribe.

I don't even know if a word for homosexuality exists
in Konkani. My parents and in-laws refer to men who
might be gay using the Portuguese word "effeminade".
So in response to your question, in my experience
Goans are still not very exposed to it.

Selma
------------------------------------
Post by Roland Francis
With regard to Kevin's link to the Lutheran
website/debate on
homsexuality acceptance and the matter of celibacy
(it truly is a mind
As Goans, what is our outlook towards
homosexuality.
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Mario Goveia
2006-09-19 15:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by saligao
Hi Selma,
Wendell has been a beacon of hope for so many in a
land steeped in
hypocrisy and prejudice. He made international news
a few years ago and
continues to 'walk the walk' for gay rights and the
environment in Goa.
http://www.marriagedebate.com/2004/02/gay-marriage-debate-goes-global-slowly
Post by saligao
.htm
However, I'm not so sure about our new Bush-clone PM
Steven Harper's plans
to re-open the same-sex marriage issue that has been
settled by the highest
court in the land.
http://www.equal-marriage.ca/resource.php?id=517
Mario responds:
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
I'm so glad that Kevin and Selma are ecstatic that
Wendell has been a "beacon of hope" for gays in Goa.
I, too, am glad for all of them, as it must be
difficult to be gay in straight-laced Goa.
However, as usual Kevin, who preaches tolerance and
conciliation snidely interspersed with exactly the
opposite, takes this opportumity to obfuscate the
debate about gay marriage in the US and Canada.
Apparently in Canada, as in Britain, any time their
leader happens to have an opinion that crosses paths
with the US-administration, they are referred to by
their political opponents as "Bush-clones". No such
reference is made when they disagree with the US
administration.
I don't particularly care what the Canadians do so I
will restrict my remarks to the US.
Marriage in most of the US is defined as the formal
legal union of a man and a woman, not a man and a man,
or a woman and a woman, or a man and several women, or
several women and a man, or a grown-up and a child, or
a human with an non-human, all options that would open
up under anti-discrimination laws if the definition is
changed for one group. One US state, Massachussetts,
"recognizes same sex marriages", other states
recognize "civil unions". This has already led to
lawsuits by polygamists demanding the same privileges.
Those who fit the other definitions, have the ability
to enter into legal contracts with any content they
choose to include, generally referred to as "domestic
partnership" agreements or "civil unions". Even
non-gay friends who live together out of convenience
can do so. They just cannot call it "marriage",
because large percentages of Americans of all kinds,
including flaming liberals on everything else, have
legally opined through the democratic process that
they do not want the traditional and legal definition
of marriage changed.
It's as simple as that.
Carvalho
2006-09-20 04:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,

Why do I detect an undertone of sarcasm in your post?
If not, why else would "beacon of hope" be in inverted
commas in your message. Your post and that of Dominic
Fernandes, to me reeks of homophobia.

I don't pretend to understand homosexuality but having
known so many homosexual men, some of whom I consider
very good friends, I don't sit in judgment of it. What
goes on between two consenting adults is their own
business.

Selma
---------------------------------------------
Post by Mario Goveia
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as
they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
I'm so glad that Kevin and Selma are ecstatic that
Wendell has been a "beacon of hope" for gays in Goa.
I, too, am glad for all of them, as it must be
difficult to be gay in straight-laced Goa.
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-09-20 00:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Folks,
I am sure that a lot of you have noticed that there
are some people here who are unable to debate any
subject without turning to religion. When they cannot
introduce religion into a debate, they switch to
comparing the country they live in with Canada or the
UK.

What is really sad is that some of them deliberately
set out to lie about the country they live in.

I started to read what Mario had to write about the
good ol' USA but had to stop reading after a few lines
as, in the USA, it is quite legal for an adult to
marry a 14 year old child. I had earlier pointed this
out to him on another forum.

As far as Goan homophobes are concerned, I have yet to
meet one outside Goa.

Mervyn3.0
Post by Mario Goveia
However, as usual Kevin, who preaches tolerance and
conciliation snidely interspersed with exactly the
opposite, takes this opportumity to obfuscate the
debate about gay marriage in the US and Canada.
Apparently in Canada, as in Britain, any time their
leader happens to have an opinion that crosses paths
with the US-administration, they are referred to by
their political opponents as "Bush-clones". No such
reference is made when they disagree with the US
administration.
I don't particularly care what the Canadians do so I
will restrict my remarks to the US.
Marriage in most of the US is defined as the formal
legal union of a man and a woman, not a man and a
man, or a woman and a woman, or a man and several
women, or several women and a man, or a grown-up
and a child, or a human with an non-human, all
options that would open up under anti->
discrimination laws if the definition is changed
for one group. One US state,
Massachussetts,"recognizes same sex marriages",
other states recognize "civil unions". This has
already led to lawsuits by polygamists demanding
the same privileges.
Those who fit the other definitions, have the
ability
to enter into legal contracts with any content they
choose to include, generally referred to as
"domestic
partnership" agreements or "civil unions". Even
non-gay friends who live together out of convenience
can do so. They just cannot call it "marriage",
because large percentages of Americans of all kinds,
including flaming liberals on everything else, have
legally opined through the democratic process that
they do not want the traditional and legal
definition of marriage changed.
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Bosco D'Mello
2006-09-20 05:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Your post and that of Dominic Fernandes, to me reeks of homophobia.
RESPONSE: From Webster:

One entry found for homophobia.

Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or
homosexuals

Kevin enquired if there was a Konkani word for Homosexual / Homosexuality.
Domnic Fernandes provided a word that he believes fits the terminology. Now
you state his post is homophobic ? What is your rationale ? Why condemn
Domnic's post ? It would have been appropriate if you had provided a
translated word(s) instead of thrusting an undesirable halo on Domnic's post.

It is true that some societies have become gay-friendly (for want of a better
word) and we have assimilated homosexuality as part of our ideology. Canada is
at the forefront of gay rights as Kevin earlier explained to the angst of the
Holy See.

- Bosco
Toronto, CA
Carvalho
2006-09-20 17:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Dear Darling Bosco,

It could be that I jumped the gun on Dominic (no puns
here) but in all my years as a Goan, I've never heard
this word used. If indeed this is a Goan word to
describe homosexuality, then how would one describe
heterosexuality? Potmarob? Because all you can see
protruding from Goan men, are their ample "pots". :))

Selma
Post by Carvalho
Your post and that of Dominic Fernandes, to me
reeks of homophobia.
One entry found for homophobia.
Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination
against homosexuality or
homosexuals
Kevin enquired if there was a Konkani word for
Homosexual / Homosexuality.
Domnic Fernandes provided a word that he believes
fits the terminology. Now
you state his post is homophobic ? What is your
rationale ? Why condemn
Domnic's post ? It would have been appropriate if
you had provided a
translated word(s) instead of thrusting an
undesirable halo on Domnic's post.
__________________________________________________
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Bosco D'Mello
2006-09-21 04:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Darling Bosco,
It could be that I jumped the gun on Dominic (no puns here) but in
all my years as a Goan, I've never heard this word used. If indeed
this is a Goan word to describe homosexuality, then how would one
describe heterosexuality? Potmarob? Because all you can see protruding
from Goan men, are their ample "pots". :))
Selma

RESPONSE: For starters shall we please follow Captain Morgan's filosawphee -
What happens below the deck, STAYS below the deck!

You have more than jumped the gun on this one. Besides your gaffe in the
earlier message, you have now acknowledged that you know all the Konkani words
there are to know. Viva !! A slug of Captain Morgan's to that.

Secondly you are forcefully shoving Domnic into the company of your off-key
but soloist brass player - who does the fingering and blowing without any
help. Domnic's talent is writing, with sincerity I might add. He is no brass
player.

Thirdly, I don't know which Goan men you were looking at when you saw
those "pots". Captain Morgan and his crew have labored to carry around a
chiselled 6-pack.

Let Konkani education - words, grammar, script run perennially.

Best - Bosco

PS. In all my years as a Goan, I never knew there was a place called Kamanwada
in Goa
Goa
2006-09-22 10:16:38 UTC
Permalink
EU procedures delaying issuance of passports, says Portuguese MP
NT Staff Reporter


Panaji, Sept 20: The general secretary of Portuguese Communist Party (PCP)
and the member of Portuguese Parliament, Mr Jeronimo de Souza today said
that the European Union has virtually turned Europe into a fortress and this
was the main reason for the delay in issuing Portuguese passports by the
Consulate of Portugal in Goa.

The PCP will intervene in this matter and communicate to the Portuguese
government, the views of Goans in this respect, he assured, adding that "the
PCP would do all that is possible to re-start the process of issuance of
Portuguese passports".

Mr de Souza also said that the PCP, the 85-year old party always supported
Goa in the demand for its liberation from the colonial rule. "Our struggle
against fascism in Portugal was no different from that in Goa, during the
Salazar regime," he maintained.

Stating that PCP was the only opposition political party that could survive
during the dictatorial rule of Salazar, Mr de Souza said that PCP is the
party of the people. He observed that Goa is a true friend of Portugal,
adding "In Portugal there is a saying that good friendships are made under
most difficult conditions."

The PCP general secretary said that Goa set an example for other colonies of
Portugal, to struggle for one's liberation, which was followed with great
success.

Mr de Souza who was earlier felicitated by the Goa state council of the
Communist Party of India (CPI) along with the PCP politburo member, Mr
Anjelo Alves, during a special function organised at the Institute Menezes
Braganza Hall, said that the delay in issuing Portuguese passports was not
entirely due to the bureaucratic reasons.

The commissioner for NRI affairs, Mr Eduardo Faleiro who was the chief guest
on the occasion said that colonialism is a crime against humanity, and added
that the new imperialism was being developed under the United States of
America.

"What is required is total and general nuclear disarmament and removal of
all weapons of mass destruction across the world, democracy in international
relations and respect for human rights including economic and social
rights," Mr Faleiro opined, pointing out that the peace loving people of
the world should coordinate their strategies in this direction. "A luta
continua" he pointed out, meaning the struggle continues.

Mr Faleiro also said that the human rights should also include the right of
development, making an appeal to the Western countries to maintain racial
and cultural integrity.

The city mayor, Mr Tony Rodrigues, in his speech said that the Portuguese
Consulate in the state should continue issuing Portuguese passports so that
the Goan people may get better opportunities to travel to Portugal and other
parts of Europe for employment.

The general secretary of the Goa state CPI, Mr Christopher Fonseca, in his
welcome address said that the 450 years of Portuguese domination in Goa
should not restrict us from recognising that the Portuguese have left an
indelible mark on the language, culture, art, architecture, laws and even
sports in the state, as also on the local socio-economic and political
institutions, in totality. He also acknowledged that Goa has been directly
benefited from the Uniform Civil Code.

Earlier, the CPI secretary for the international department, Mr Pallav Sen
Gupta introduced. Former IAS officer, Mr Albano Couto, well-known
educationist, Prof Suresh Amonkar, freedom fighter, Mr Shridhar Tamba,
senior journalist, Flaviano Dias and veteran trade union leader, Dr Luiza
Pereira were present on the dias.

A condolence motion was also passed on the occasion paying homage to all the
known and unknown people who fought for the liberation of Goa.
Filomena Giese
2006-09-23 05:56:06 UTC
Permalink
While about a dozen Goanet argu-pros have been
debating whether Santosh is an indecent, mo-f
in? (to
use a traditional American epithet that deserves to be
added to the Goanet lexicon of insults) atheist, and a
lamebrain pseudo-scientist, daring to question the
latest research quoted by Gilbert about cancer
operations as indisputable fact and good medical
practice, the rest of us 6,990 readers have been
thinking
. and gearing up to contribute our 2 cents?
worth.
Gilbert was talking about how the latest cancer
research about the effect of operations on tumors
validates the old kaneos that operations spread
cancer.
My own experience with ?the latest research? is just
the opposite. I learned the hard way that the "latest
research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and is
not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth. Here?s
how my story goes:
1. In July 1991, I went for my yearly checkup and pap
test to a gynecologist/obstetrician considered one of
the top ones in the San Francisco-Berkeley area. As I
was almost 51 and going through menopause, he said
that I should be on hormone replacement. I questioned
this as I had no bad symptoms except for some mild
sleeplessness. I also told him what was already in my
medical history, that I was a lifelong migraine
sufferer and extremely sensitive to hormones and other
medications. He insisted that ?the latest research?
showed that it would help me in other ways like
preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis. I did
report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by
but he said that I would get used to it and that the
hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many
studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as
beneficial to older women.
2. In December 1991, I got a most terrible headache
while taking a class. I knew it wasn?t just a
migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I was
taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical
School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had
suffered a brain haemorrage. I was operated on by
their top brain surgeon. No aneurism was found and no
apparent reason for the ?bleed? as it?s commonly
called. Incidentally, when I later told my lawyer
that I had just had a brain operation, he quipped ?Did
they find one?? Goanetters might share the same
sentiment.....
3. I was, of course, greatly impressed at all the
great medical technology that had saved my life and
brain. Others on the same floor as me were either in
a coma or in a vegetative state. My daughter, who was
herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me,
somewhat skeptical of medical ?science? as the total
answer, ?Mom, it?s your voodoo (prayers and hope)
against theirs.?
4. After recovery, I was sent to the top neurologist
at UCSF who specialized in headaches, especially
migraines. It turned out that he had presented a
paper at a medical conference not even a year before,
cautioning giving hormone replacement therapy (HRT) to
women with migraine and advising that certain cautions
should be taken because there was a higher risk of
stroke in such women. Obviously, my gynecologist was
not aware of the latest in neurological research. The
UCSF neurosurgeon and neurologist recommended that I
stop HRT. I changed gynecologists, naturally.
5. Subsequent research has shown that hormone
replacement therapy causes strokes and even heart
attacks in many women, not just those with a history
of migraine. It has been largely discontinued, I'm
told. HRT is also not recommended for women with
breast and other gynecological cancers many of which
are related to higher estrogen levels.

Moral of the story: the ?latest research? might turn
out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to rush
to judgement and give up operations for cancer just
because the latest research says this or that, is not
half wrong.
My life-threatening situation arose because the
gynecologist didn?t pay attention to the neurologist.
Now, if defenders of our resident Goanet gynecologist,
Gilbert, were to pay respectful attention to our
resident Goanet neurologist, Santosh, who knows, we
may well be on the way to achieving peace and amity on
Goanet
..
Filomena


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Santosh Helekar
2006-09-24 16:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Dear Filomena,

I commend you on your excellent take on the tentative
and provisional nature of some of the findings of
medical research, and on the fallibility medical
professionals. Thanks for relating your personal story
about the adverse effects of hormone replacement
therapy.

On a personal note, I am impressed by your keen
observational skills in commenting on the decent
professional practice of insinuating in public forums
that a professional colleague is a pseudo-scientist. A
minor correction though is that Gilbert is a
distinguished radiation oncologist, who I believe, is
board-certified in Therapeutic Radiology, and I am a
neuroscientist.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Filomena Giese
While about a dozen Goanet argu-pros have been
debating whether Santosh is an indecent, mo-f
in'
Post by Filomena Giese
(to
use a traditional American epithet that deserves to
be
added to the Goanet lexicon of insults) atheist, and
a
lamebrain pseudo-scientist, daring to question the
latest research quoted by Gilbert about cancer
operations as indisputable fact and good medical
practice, the rest of us 6,990 readers have been
thinking
. and gearing up to contribute our 2 cents'
Post by Filomena Giese
worth.
Gilbert was talking about how the latest cancer
research about the effect of operations on tumors
validates the old kaneos that operations spread
cancer.
My own experience with "the latest research" is just
the opposite. I learned the hard way that the
"latest
research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and
is
not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth. Here's
1. In July 1991, I went for my yearly checkup
and pap
test to a gynecologist/obstetrician considered one
of
the top ones in the San Francisco-Berkeley area. As
I
was almost 51 and going through menopause, he said
that I should be on hormone replacement. I
questioned
this as I had no bad symptoms except for some mild
sleeplessness. I also told him what was already in
my
medical history, that I was a lifelong migraine
sufferer and extremely sensitive to hormones and
other
medications. He insisted that "the latest research"
showed that it would help me in other ways like
preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis. I did
report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by
but he said that I would get used to it and that the
hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many
studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as
beneficial to older women.
2. In December 1991, I got a most terrible
headache
while taking a class. I knew it wasn't just a
migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I
was
taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical
School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had
suffered a brain haemorrage. I was operated on by
their top brain surgeon. No aneurism was found and
no
apparent reason for the "bleed" as it's commonly
called. Incidentally, when I later told my lawyer
that I had just had a brain operation, he quipped
"Did
they find one?" Goanetters might share the same
sentiment.....
3. I was, of course, greatly impressed at all
the
great medical technology that had saved my life and
brain. Others on the same floor as me were either
in
a coma or in a vegetative state. My daughter, who
was
herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me,
somewhat skeptical of medical "science" as the total
answer, "Mom, it's your voodoo (prayers and hope)
against theirs."
4. After recovery, I was sent to the top
neurologist
at UCSF who specialized in headaches, especially
migraines. It turned out that he had presented a
paper at a medical conference not even a year
before,
cautioning giving hormone replacement therapy (HRT)
to
women with migraine and advising that certain
cautions
should be taken because there was a higher risk of
stroke in such women. Obviously, my gynecologist
was
not aware of the latest in neurological research.
The
UCSF neurosurgeon and neurologist recommended that I
stop HRT. I changed gynecologists, naturally.
5. Subsequent research has shown that hormone
replacement therapy causes strokes and even heart
attacks in many women, not just those with a history
of migraine. It has been largely discontinued, I'm
told. HRT is also not recommended for women with
breast and other gynecological cancers many of which
are related to higher estrogen levels.
Moral of the story: the "latest research" might
turn
out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to
rush
to judgement and give up operations for cancer just
because the latest research says this or that, is
not
half wrong.
My life-threatening situation arose because the
gynecologist didn't pay attention to the
neurologist.
Now, if defenders of our resident Goanet
gynecologist,
Gilbert, were to pay respectful attention to our
resident Goanet neurologist, Santosh, who knows, we
may well be on the way to achieving peace and amity
on
Goanet
..
Post by Filomena Giese
Filomena
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-09-27 00:06:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi Filomena,

With all due respects to you, what you say, that I said .... is not what I said that you say. In fact it is just the opposite.

You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has not thanked you for the support. Your statements (below) totally contradict the hard facts of the "gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that medical and other sciences present through research and publications in "peer reviewed" journals. The contrarian view is the point Fred, others and I have been making under the thread / title of "Another Kaneo .. or is it .. Hot Air?" which was an offshoot of "Science as a religion". All of us have had little success getting our point across. Perhaps with your personal story and specially the "moral of the story" some of our readers will be more aware of what we have been writing.

Your comment, "Santosh, in warning us not to rush to judgement and give up operations for cancer" (second line last paragraph), as a neutral reader of this discussion / thread, shows what a "fine job" Santosh has been doing with distorting my writings. In none of my posts did I state that there was no role for the surgeon or surgery in cancer management. In fact in my very first post, I clearly state that surgery has moved from radical / aggressive surgery to organ-sparing / conservative surgery. And more recently I stated we have gone from Open Biopsy to Needle Biopsy.

Thank you for sharing your personal medical story with us. It brings home many mistakes that physicians and researchers make. Oops! Did I say mistakes by physicians and researchers? Mistakes are supposedly only confined to religion; And physicians are supposed to correct those religion mistakes. Should we give the padres equal time and space to opine on the "dangerous (medical) myth and is not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth" (quoting you)?
From your post below, you have a very smart daughter. As a budding knowledgeable doctor at UCSF, she has conceptually bridged the "voodoo and prayers" of (your) religion with "voodoo and prayers" of medical science and your doctors. :=)) As a doctor after my heart, another adage your daughter may find useful is: "A lot more often than we realize, patients live in spite of their doctors". And we, the doctors, should Thank God for that.
Treatment choices lie somewhere in the midst of skepticism of multiple sources (corroboration) of scientific data. The treatment should be tailored to the patient; and not the patient to the scientific study. No doctor should "insists" on what their patient should do. The physicians' role is to present the facts and information of the various options to the patient. And let the patient make the choice. After-all it is their life. The doctors may make a good faith recommendation, - the same that they would make to a very close relative. The patient also should be encouraged to do their own reading and to ask questions. As your case demonstrates, the patient, (not the doctor), that pays the ultimate price and lives with the choice / decisions and consequences. I hope you politely informed your original gynecologist what happened to you. That may be the best education he / she may receive and that would benefit their next patients. Good scientists and doctors are always humble and open to learn from experience, especially the untoward ones.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Filomena Giese wrote:

My own experience with "the latest research" is just the opposite. I learned the hard way that the "latest research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and is not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth.

He (gynecologist) insisted that "the latest research" showed that it would help me in other ways like preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis.... I did report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by but he said that I would get used to it and that the hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as beneficial to older women. In December 1991, I got a most terrible headache while taking a class. I knew it wasn't just a migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I was taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had suffered a brain haemorrage.

My daughter, who was herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me, somewhat skeptical of medical "science" as the total answer, "Mom, it's your voodoo (prayers and hope) against theirs."

Moral of the story: the "latest research" might turn out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to rush to judgement and give up operations for cancer just because the latest research says this or that, is not half wrong. My life-threatening situation arose because the gynecologist didn't pay attention to the neurologist.


-------- Santosh Helekar wrote:
I commend you on your excellent take on the tentative and provisional nature of some of the findings of medical research, and on the fallibility medical professionals. Thanks for relating your personal story about the adverse effects of hormone replacement therapy.
Santosh Helekar
2006-09-27 05:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has not
thanked you for the support. Your statements
(below) totally contradict the hard facts of the
"gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that medical
and other sciences present through research and
publications in "peer reviewed" journals.
I am sorry. This is not accurate. I have already
thanked Filomena for an excellent analysis. The rest
of what is written in the above post is also not an
accurate and fair characterization of my views. To
find out what my views are please read my response to
Filomena, and all my prior posts on this issue. I have
written extensively on the self-corrective nature of
science over the years. I humbly request Gilbert not
to put words in my mouth or to point to Frederick's or
anyone else's mischaracterization of my views. And I
ask readers not to rely on someone else's opinion of
what I said or implied. I trust Gilbert would try to
understand and respect this simple principle of any
public discourse.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mario Goveia
2006-09-28 18:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has
not thanked you for the support. Your statements
(below) totally contradict the hard facts of the
"gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that
medical and other sciences present through
research and publications in "peer reviewed"
journals.
I am sorry. This is not accurate. I have already
thanked Filomena for an excellent analysis.
Mario observes:
Santosh thanked Filomena for swallowing his false
interpretation of Gilbert's comments in his post
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
hook, line and sinker, obviously without critically
reading what Gilbert had originally posted in
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html
Post by Santosh Helekar
The rest of what is written in the above post is
also not an accurate and fair characterization of
my views. To find out what my views are please read
my response to Filomena, and all my prior posts on
this issue. I have written extensively on the self-
corrective nature of science over the years. I
humbly request Gilbert not to put words in my mouth
or to point to Frederick's or anyone else's
mischaracterization of my views. And I ask readers
not to rely on someone else's opinion of what I
said or implied. I trust Gilbert would try to
understand and respect this simple principle of any
public discourse.
Mario observes:
The only one mischaracterizing and obfuscating his own
previously written views, and continuing to do so, is
Santosh. No one is asking anyone to rely on anyone
else's representations. Just the opposite. I am
asking people to critically read what Gilbert and
Santosh said in their own words.
It is very important for readers to first carefully
read Gilbert's original post in the URL above, and
then compare this with Santosh's response shown in the
other URL above.
Readers then need to read Kevin's post
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048373.html
where he gave Santosh a chance to reconsider.
Rather than do so, Santosh responded to Kevin in
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048416.html
where he REPEATED his false allegations of what
Gilbert had posted.
Readers also need to keep in mind that the topic here
is cancer. Gilbert is an experienced Board Certified
oncologist being accused by Santosh with the following
opening statement, "The post appended below propagates
dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer
treatment in this public forum."
Santosh describes himself in another forum as follows:
"Baylor College of Medicine in Houston is a habitat
for all kinds of minds, where mine got me a Ph.D. in
brain science, working me long and hard trying to
understand what is wrong with the brain cells of mice
that are genetically prone to have epileptic seizures.
There, my mind, with more time in the postdoctoral
slammer, even eked out a basic discovery relevant to
how normal brain cells develop mature communication
channels. There, I could even become a certified
armchair thinker, and have my thoughts packaged as a
bona fide theory to explain how literal sparks become
figurative ones." [end of excerpt]
While I have no doubt that Santosh is an excellent
researcher in his field, his field is not cancer.
So, who would YOU consult if you found you had cancer?
Gilbert, or Santosh?
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-09-29 00:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,

Thank you for your polite response. I fully concur with your statement below about the "self-corrective nature of science". The question I have for you (and others) is: Are not other fields like religion, politics, history, government etc. also "self-correcting" over time? So we cannot condemn medicine / science for its past mistakes, because it self-corrects. Yet, can we keep constantly condemning religion, other fields and major institutions for their historical mistakes, as you and a few Goanetters tend to do. I do not want your rebuttal. I just request your consideration of this point when you (and others) stand on the soap-box.

I am sure you realize, that until medicine self-corrects, perhaps in a decade or so, a lot of patients are the victims of flawed treatments and recommendations in the interim. Just look at the large number of drugs that have been pulled off the shelf or the changing medical practice patterns in various diseases. So medicine / science, as well as we physicians and scientists, do not have a monopoly on self-righteousness and wisdom.

Mario quoted you verbatim (with web links) in his response to Filomena. Hence, my line of reasoning was not your exact words; but rather what an unbiased reader understood from your parsed writings? Either our intelligent Filomena had a problem understanding your English / writings. Or she was demagoging the subject and me by implying, that I was promoting that, we should do away with surgery in cancer management.

In fact, you were so good in your writings on this subject that I was confused by what you were trying to say. You condemned me for reporting on the mice experiment that suggest surgery alters the immune system and making the cancer behave more aggressively. To quote you, I was: "Propagates dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this public forum."
Then you went ahead and directed readers to many references on exactly similar findings (of suppressed immune markers after surgery) in humans. So this supurlo Goenkar (moi) did not know whether to laugh or to cry. Similarly you provided a link about the near-absolute need to do a biopsy to diagnose / confirm a new cancer. This is something that one did not need a rocket scientist to validate.:=)) That is why it looked to me like a "fuggdi". :=))

Kind Regards, GL

------------ Santosh Helekar

I have written extensively on the self-corrective nature of science over the years.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-01 04:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So this supurlo Goenkar (moi) did not know whether to
laugh or to cry. Similarly you provided a link about
the near-absolute need to do a biopsy to diagnose /
confirm a new cancer. This is something that one did
not need a rocket scientist to validate.:=)) That is
why it looked to me like a "fuggdi". :=))
Hi Gilbert,

It is very clear that you and I have a strong
disagreement about your post on the so-called
grandmother?s kaannee regarding cancer treatment. If
you really want to know who is right, I could ask a
well-recognized Goan cancer surgeon and researcher,
who is very knowledgeable about this issue, to comment
on that post of yours, and then post his commentary on
Goanet. Do you want me to do that? Please let me know.
Regarding your other points, my comments are
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The question I have for you (and others) is: Are not
other fields like religion, politics, history,
government etc. also "self-correcting" over time?
A self-correcting field changes its beliefs and
assumptions based on objective evidence. In the above
list only history satisfies this definition with any
degree of consistency. Religion, especially, is almost
never self-correcting by its very nature.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So we cannot condemn medicine / science for its past
mistakes, because it self-corrects.
Who claimed that we cannot condemn medicine/science
for anything? My view is that we absolutely must
condemn medicine/science for their past and present
wrongdoings.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Yet, can we keep constantly condemning religion,
other >fields and major institutions for their
historical >mistakes, as you and a few Goanetters tend
to do.
My view is that we have to condemn these fields, as
well, for their past and present wrongdoings. We
cannot give them special immunity.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So medicine / science, as well as we physicians and
scientists, do not have a monopoly on
self-righteousness and wisdom.
Who claimed that they did?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Mario quoted you verbatim (with web links) in his
response to Filomena.
I don?t think Mario understands this issue very well.
I would humbly request you to ignore whatever he is
saying about me in general.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Hence, my line of reasoning was not your exact words;
but rather what an unbiased reader understood from
your parsed writings?
Please forgive me for being blunt. But let me
respectfully submit to you that your line of reasoning
as far as my views are concerned is neither unbiased
nor accurate.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Either our intelligent Filomena had a problem
understanding your English / writings.
Filomena is an extremely smart, perceptive and
knowledgeable lady. She understood exactly what I was
saying and implying.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
To quote you, I was: "Propagates dangerous myths and
misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this
public forum."
Sorry, but I have to stand by my assertion. Again, I
respectfully suggest to you that if you give me
permission to ask a Goan cancer surgery expert to
comment on your post, we can settle this issue once
and for all. Do I have your permission?

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2006-09-18 05:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Dear Roland,

An interesting question indeed. Sometime ago, I was
mulling over whether Goans are predominantly
conservative or liberal as per the loosely used
meaning of the terms.

Goa itself in bifurcating into two different
world-views. There is North Goa and then there is
South Goa, there are the central parts of Goa
connected by the NH17 and then there are the
hinterlands and far-flung talukas like Sanguem and
Canacona, which are quite unique in their perspective.
Within these two worlds exist difference formed and
defined by exposure to media, external influences,
education, city-life and parochialism.

Other than Wendell Rodrigues, I don't think there are
too many homosexual men or women leading openly gay
lifestyles. I think Wendell is courageous to take on
this flame torch on behalf of his tribe.

I don't even know if a word for homosexuality exists
in Konkani. My parents and in-laws refer to men who
might be gay using the Portuguese word "effeminade".
So in response to your question, in my experience
Goans are still not very exposed to it.

Selma
------------------------------------
Post by Roland Francis
With regard to Kevin's link to the Lutheran
website/debate on
homsexuality acceptance and the matter of celibacy
(it truly is a mind
As Goans, what is our outlook towards
homosexuality.
__________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2006-09-19 15:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by saligao
Hi Selma,
Wendell has been a beacon of hope for so many in a
land steeped in
hypocrisy and prejudice. He made international news
a few years ago and
continues to 'walk the walk' for gay rights and the
environment in Goa.
http://www.marriagedebate.com/2004/02/gay-marriage-debate-goes-global-slowly
Post by saligao
.htm
However, I'm not so sure about our new Bush-clone PM
Steven Harper's plans
to re-open the same-sex marriage issue that has been
settled by the highest
court in the land.
http://www.equal-marriage.ca/resource.php?id=517
Mario responds:
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
I'm so glad that Kevin and Selma are ecstatic that
Wendell has been a "beacon of hope" for gays in Goa.
I, too, am glad for all of them, as it must be
difficult to be gay in straight-laced Goa.
However, as usual Kevin, who preaches tolerance and
conciliation snidely interspersed with exactly the
opposite, takes this opportumity to obfuscate the
debate about gay marriage in the US and Canada.
Apparently in Canada, as in Britain, any time their
leader happens to have an opinion that crosses paths
with the US-administration, they are referred to by
their political opponents as "Bush-clones". No such
reference is made when they disagree with the US
administration.
I don't particularly care what the Canadians do so I
will restrict my remarks to the US.
Marriage in most of the US is defined as the formal
legal union of a man and a woman, not a man and a man,
or a woman and a woman, or a man and several women, or
several women and a man, or a grown-up and a child, or
a human with an non-human, all options that would open
up under anti-discrimination laws if the definition is
changed for one group. One US state, Massachussetts,
"recognizes same sex marriages", other states
recognize "civil unions". This has already led to
lawsuits by polygamists demanding the same privileges.
Those who fit the other definitions, have the ability
to enter into legal contracts with any content they
choose to include, generally referred to as "domestic
partnership" agreements or "civil unions". Even
non-gay friends who live together out of convenience
can do so. They just cannot call it "marriage",
because large percentages of Americans of all kinds,
including flaming liberals on everything else, have
legally opined through the democratic process that
they do not want the traditional and legal definition
of marriage changed.
It's as simple as that.
Carvalho
2006-09-20 04:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,

Why do I detect an undertone of sarcasm in your post?
If not, why else would "beacon of hope" be in inverted
commas in your message. Your post and that of Dominic
Fernandes, to me reeks of homophobia.

I don't pretend to understand homosexuality but having
known so many homosexual men, some of whom I consider
very good friends, I don't sit in judgment of it. What
goes on between two consenting adults is their own
business.

Selma
---------------------------------------------
Post by Mario Goveia
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as
they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
I'm so glad that Kevin and Selma are ecstatic that
Wendell has been a "beacon of hope" for gays in Goa.
I, too, am glad for all of them, as it must be
difficult to be gay in straight-laced Goa.
__________________________________________________
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-09-20 00:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Folks,
I am sure that a lot of you have noticed that there
are some people here who are unable to debate any
subject without turning to religion. When they cannot
introduce religion into a debate, they switch to
comparing the country they live in with Canada or the
UK.

What is really sad is that some of them deliberately
set out to lie about the country they live in.

I started to read what Mario had to write about the
good ol' USA but had to stop reading after a few lines
as, in the USA, it is quite legal for an adult to
marry a 14 year old child. I had earlier pointed this
out to him on another forum.

As far as Goan homophobes are concerned, I have yet to
meet one outside Goa.

Mervyn3.0
Post by Mario Goveia
However, as usual Kevin, who preaches tolerance and
conciliation snidely interspersed with exactly the
opposite, takes this opportumity to obfuscate the
debate about gay marriage in the US and Canada.
Apparently in Canada, as in Britain, any time their
leader happens to have an opinion that crosses paths
with the US-administration, they are referred to by
their political opponents as "Bush-clones". No such
reference is made when they disagree with the US
administration.
I don't particularly care what the Canadians do so I
will restrict my remarks to the US.
Marriage in most of the US is defined as the formal
legal union of a man and a woman, not a man and a
man, or a woman and a woman, or a man and several
women, or several women and a man, or a grown-up
and a child, or a human with an non-human, all
options that would open up under anti->
discrimination laws if the definition is changed
for one group. One US state,
Massachussetts,"recognizes same sex marriages",
other states recognize "civil unions". This has
already led to lawsuits by polygamists demanding
the same privileges.
Those who fit the other definitions, have the
ability
to enter into legal contracts with any content they
choose to include, generally referred to as
"domestic
partnership" agreements or "civil unions". Even
non-gay friends who live together out of convenience
can do so. They just cannot call it "marriage",
because large percentages of Americans of all kinds,
including flaming liberals on everything else, have
legally opined through the democratic process that
they do not want the traditional and legal
definition of marriage changed.
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Bosco D'Mello
2006-09-20 05:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Your post and that of Dominic Fernandes, to me reeks of homophobia.
RESPONSE: From Webster:

One entry found for homophobia.

Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or
homosexuals

Kevin enquired if there was a Konkani word for Homosexual / Homosexuality.
Domnic Fernandes provided a word that he believes fits the terminology. Now
you state his post is homophobic ? What is your rationale ? Why condemn
Domnic's post ? It would have been appropriate if you had provided a
translated word(s) instead of thrusting an undesirable halo on Domnic's post.

It is true that some societies have become gay-friendly (for want of a better
word) and we have assimilated homosexuality as part of our ideology. Canada is
at the forefront of gay rights as Kevin earlier explained to the angst of the
Holy See.

- Bosco
Toronto, CA
Carvalho
2006-09-20 17:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Dear Darling Bosco,

It could be that I jumped the gun on Dominic (no puns
here) but in all my years as a Goan, I've never heard
this word used. If indeed this is a Goan word to
describe homosexuality, then how would one describe
heterosexuality? Potmarob? Because all you can see
protruding from Goan men, are their ample "pots". :))

Selma
Post by Carvalho
Your post and that of Dominic Fernandes, to me
reeks of homophobia.
One entry found for homophobia.
Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination
against homosexuality or
homosexuals
Kevin enquired if there was a Konkani word for
Homosexual / Homosexuality.
Domnic Fernandes provided a word that he believes
fits the terminology. Now
you state his post is homophobic ? What is your
rationale ? Why condemn
Domnic's post ? It would have been appropriate if
you had provided a
translated word(s) instead of thrusting an
undesirable halo on Domnic's post.
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Bosco D'Mello
2006-09-21 04:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Darling Bosco,
It could be that I jumped the gun on Dominic (no puns here) but in
all my years as a Goan, I've never heard this word used. If indeed
this is a Goan word to describe homosexuality, then how would one
describe heterosexuality? Potmarob? Because all you can see protruding
from Goan men, are their ample "pots". :))
Selma

RESPONSE: For starters shall we please follow Captain Morgan's filosawphee -
What happens below the deck, STAYS below the deck!

You have more than jumped the gun on this one. Besides your gaffe in the
earlier message, you have now acknowledged that you know all the Konkani words
there are to know. Viva !! A slug of Captain Morgan's to that.

Secondly you are forcefully shoving Domnic into the company of your off-key
but soloist brass player - who does the fingering and blowing without any
help. Domnic's talent is writing, with sincerity I might add. He is no brass
player.

Thirdly, I don't know which Goan men you were looking at when you saw
those "pots". Captain Morgan and his crew have labored to carry around a
chiselled 6-pack.

Let Konkani education - words, grammar, script run perennially.

Best - Bosco

PS. In all my years as a Goan, I never knew there was a place called Kamanwada
in Goa
Goa
2006-09-22 10:16:38 UTC
Permalink
EU procedures delaying issuance of passports, says Portuguese MP
NT Staff Reporter


Panaji, Sept 20: The general secretary of Portuguese Communist Party (PCP)
and the member of Portuguese Parliament, Mr Jeronimo de Souza today said
that the European Union has virtually turned Europe into a fortress and this
was the main reason for the delay in issuing Portuguese passports by the
Consulate of Portugal in Goa.

The PCP will intervene in this matter and communicate to the Portuguese
government, the views of Goans in this respect, he assured, adding that "the
PCP would do all that is possible to re-start the process of issuance of
Portuguese passports".

Mr de Souza also said that the PCP, the 85-year old party always supported
Goa in the demand for its liberation from the colonial rule. "Our struggle
against fascism in Portugal was no different from that in Goa, during the
Salazar regime," he maintained.

Stating that PCP was the only opposition political party that could survive
during the dictatorial rule of Salazar, Mr de Souza said that PCP is the
party of the people. He observed that Goa is a true friend of Portugal,
adding "In Portugal there is a saying that good friendships are made under
most difficult conditions."

The PCP general secretary said that Goa set an example for other colonies of
Portugal, to struggle for one's liberation, which was followed with great
success.

Mr de Souza who was earlier felicitated by the Goa state council of the
Communist Party of India (CPI) along with the PCP politburo member, Mr
Anjelo Alves, during a special function organised at the Institute Menezes
Braganza Hall, said that the delay in issuing Portuguese passports was not
entirely due to the bureaucratic reasons.

The commissioner for NRI affairs, Mr Eduardo Faleiro who was the chief guest
on the occasion said that colonialism is a crime against humanity, and added
that the new imperialism was being developed under the United States of
America.

"What is required is total and general nuclear disarmament and removal of
all weapons of mass destruction across the world, democracy in international
relations and respect for human rights including economic and social
rights," Mr Faleiro opined, pointing out that the peace loving people of
the world should coordinate their strategies in this direction. "A luta
continua" he pointed out, meaning the struggle continues.

Mr Faleiro also said that the human rights should also include the right of
development, making an appeal to the Western countries to maintain racial
and cultural integrity.

The city mayor, Mr Tony Rodrigues, in his speech said that the Portuguese
Consulate in the state should continue issuing Portuguese passports so that
the Goan people may get better opportunities to travel to Portugal and other
parts of Europe for employment.

The general secretary of the Goa state CPI, Mr Christopher Fonseca, in his
welcome address said that the 450 years of Portuguese domination in Goa
should not restrict us from recognising that the Portuguese have left an
indelible mark on the language, culture, art, architecture, laws and even
sports in the state, as also on the local socio-economic and political
institutions, in totality. He also acknowledged that Goa has been directly
benefited from the Uniform Civil Code.

Earlier, the CPI secretary for the international department, Mr Pallav Sen
Gupta introduced. Former IAS officer, Mr Albano Couto, well-known
educationist, Prof Suresh Amonkar, freedom fighter, Mr Shridhar Tamba,
senior journalist, Flaviano Dias and veteran trade union leader, Dr Luiza
Pereira were present on the dias.

A condolence motion was also passed on the occasion paying homage to all the
known and unknown people who fought for the liberation of Goa.
Filomena Giese
2006-09-23 05:56:06 UTC
Permalink
While about a dozen Goanet argu-pros have been
debating whether Santosh is an indecent, mo-f
in? (to
use a traditional American epithet that deserves to be
added to the Goanet lexicon of insults) atheist, and a
lamebrain pseudo-scientist, daring to question the
latest research quoted by Gilbert about cancer
operations as indisputable fact and good medical
practice, the rest of us 6,990 readers have been
thinking
. and gearing up to contribute our 2 cents?
worth.
Gilbert was talking about how the latest cancer
research about the effect of operations on tumors
validates the old kaneos that operations spread
cancer.
My own experience with ?the latest research? is just
the opposite. I learned the hard way that the "latest
research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and is
not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth. Here?s
how my story goes:
1. In July 1991, I went for my yearly checkup and pap
test to a gynecologist/obstetrician considered one of
the top ones in the San Francisco-Berkeley area. As I
was almost 51 and going through menopause, he said
that I should be on hormone replacement. I questioned
this as I had no bad symptoms except for some mild
sleeplessness. I also told him what was already in my
medical history, that I was a lifelong migraine
sufferer and extremely sensitive to hormones and other
medications. He insisted that ?the latest research?
showed that it would help me in other ways like
preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis. I did
report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by
but he said that I would get used to it and that the
hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many
studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as
beneficial to older women.
2. In December 1991, I got a most terrible headache
while taking a class. I knew it wasn?t just a
migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I was
taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical
School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had
suffered a brain haemorrage. I was operated on by
their top brain surgeon. No aneurism was found and no
apparent reason for the ?bleed? as it?s commonly
called. Incidentally, when I later told my lawyer
that I had just had a brain operation, he quipped ?Did
they find one?? Goanetters might share the same
sentiment.....
3. I was, of course, greatly impressed at all the
great medical technology that had saved my life and
brain. Others on the same floor as me were either in
a coma or in a vegetative state. My daughter, who was
herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me,
somewhat skeptical of medical ?science? as the total
answer, ?Mom, it?s your voodoo (prayers and hope)
against theirs.?
4. After recovery, I was sent to the top neurologist
at UCSF who specialized in headaches, especially
migraines. It turned out that he had presented a
paper at a medical conference not even a year before,
cautioning giving hormone replacement therapy (HRT) to
women with migraine and advising that certain cautions
should be taken because there was a higher risk of
stroke in such women. Obviously, my gynecologist was
not aware of the latest in neurological research. The
UCSF neurosurgeon and neurologist recommended that I
stop HRT. I changed gynecologists, naturally.
5. Subsequent research has shown that hormone
replacement therapy causes strokes and even heart
attacks in many women, not just those with a history
of migraine. It has been largely discontinued, I'm
told. HRT is also not recommended for women with
breast and other gynecological cancers many of which
are related to higher estrogen levels.

Moral of the story: the ?latest research? might turn
out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to rush
to judgement and give up operations for cancer just
because the latest research says this or that, is not
half wrong.
My life-threatening situation arose because the
gynecologist didn?t pay attention to the neurologist.
Now, if defenders of our resident Goanet gynecologist,
Gilbert, were to pay respectful attention to our
resident Goanet neurologist, Santosh, who knows, we
may well be on the way to achieving peace and amity on
Goanet
..
Filomena


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Santosh Helekar
2006-09-24 16:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Dear Filomena,

I commend you on your excellent take on the tentative
and provisional nature of some of the findings of
medical research, and on the fallibility medical
professionals. Thanks for relating your personal story
about the adverse effects of hormone replacement
therapy.

On a personal note, I am impressed by your keen
observational skills in commenting on the decent
professional practice of insinuating in public forums
that a professional colleague is a pseudo-scientist. A
minor correction though is that Gilbert is a
distinguished radiation oncologist, who I believe, is
board-certified in Therapeutic Radiology, and I am a
neuroscientist.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Filomena Giese
While about a dozen Goanet argu-pros have been
debating whether Santosh is an indecent, mo-f
in'
Post by Filomena Giese
(to
use a traditional American epithet that deserves to
be
added to the Goanet lexicon of insults) atheist, and
a
lamebrain pseudo-scientist, daring to question the
latest research quoted by Gilbert about cancer
operations as indisputable fact and good medical
practice, the rest of us 6,990 readers have been
thinking
. and gearing up to contribute our 2 cents'
Post by Filomena Giese
worth.
Gilbert was talking about how the latest cancer
research about the effect of operations on tumors
validates the old kaneos that operations spread
cancer.
My own experience with "the latest research" is just
the opposite. I learned the hard way that the
"latest
research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and
is
not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth. Here's
1. In July 1991, I went for my yearly checkup
and pap
test to a gynecologist/obstetrician considered one
of
the top ones in the San Francisco-Berkeley area. As
I
was almost 51 and going through menopause, he said
that I should be on hormone replacement. I
questioned
this as I had no bad symptoms except for some mild
sleeplessness. I also told him what was already in
my
medical history, that I was a lifelong migraine
sufferer and extremely sensitive to hormones and
other
medications. He insisted that "the latest research"
showed that it would help me in other ways like
preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis. I did
report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by
but he said that I would get used to it and that the
hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many
studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as
beneficial to older women.
2. In December 1991, I got a most terrible
headache
while taking a class. I knew it wasn't just a
migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I
was
taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical
School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had
suffered a brain haemorrage. I was operated on by
their top brain surgeon. No aneurism was found and
no
apparent reason for the "bleed" as it's commonly
called. Incidentally, when I later told my lawyer
that I had just had a brain operation, he quipped
"Did
they find one?" Goanetters might share the same
sentiment.....
3. I was, of course, greatly impressed at all
the
great medical technology that had saved my life and
brain. Others on the same floor as me were either
in
a coma or in a vegetative state. My daughter, who
was
herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me,
somewhat skeptical of medical "science" as the total
answer, "Mom, it's your voodoo (prayers and hope)
against theirs."
4. After recovery, I was sent to the top
neurologist
at UCSF who specialized in headaches, especially
migraines. It turned out that he had presented a
paper at a medical conference not even a year
before,
cautioning giving hormone replacement therapy (HRT)
to
women with migraine and advising that certain
cautions
should be taken because there was a higher risk of
stroke in such women. Obviously, my gynecologist
was
not aware of the latest in neurological research.
The
UCSF neurosurgeon and neurologist recommended that I
stop HRT. I changed gynecologists, naturally.
5. Subsequent research has shown that hormone
replacement therapy causes strokes and even heart
attacks in many women, not just those with a history
of migraine. It has been largely discontinued, I'm
told. HRT is also not recommended for women with
breast and other gynecological cancers many of which
are related to higher estrogen levels.
Moral of the story: the "latest research" might
turn
out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to
rush
to judgement and give up operations for cancer just
because the latest research says this or that, is
not
half wrong.
My life-threatening situation arose because the
gynecologist didn't pay attention to the
neurologist.
Now, if defenders of our resident Goanet
gynecologist,
Gilbert, were to pay respectful attention to our
resident Goanet neurologist, Santosh, who knows, we
may well be on the way to achieving peace and amity
on
Goanet
..
Post by Filomena Giese
Filomena
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-09-27 00:06:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi Filomena,

With all due respects to you, what you say, that I said .... is not what I said that you say. In fact it is just the opposite.

You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has not thanked you for the support. Your statements (below) totally contradict the hard facts of the "gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that medical and other sciences present through research and publications in "peer reviewed" journals. The contrarian view is the point Fred, others and I have been making under the thread / title of "Another Kaneo .. or is it .. Hot Air?" which was an offshoot of "Science as a religion". All of us have had little success getting our point across. Perhaps with your personal story and specially the "moral of the story" some of our readers will be more aware of what we have been writing.

Your comment, "Santosh, in warning us not to rush to judgement and give up operations for cancer" (second line last paragraph), as a neutral reader of this discussion / thread, shows what a "fine job" Santosh has been doing with distorting my writings. In none of my posts did I state that there was no role for the surgeon or surgery in cancer management. In fact in my very first post, I clearly state that surgery has moved from radical / aggressive surgery to organ-sparing / conservative surgery. And more recently I stated we have gone from Open Biopsy to Needle Biopsy.

Thank you for sharing your personal medical story with us. It brings home many mistakes that physicians and researchers make. Oops! Did I say mistakes by physicians and researchers? Mistakes are supposedly only confined to religion; And physicians are supposed to correct those religion mistakes. Should we give the padres equal time and space to opine on the "dangerous (medical) myth and is not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth" (quoting you)?
From your post below, you have a very smart daughter. As a budding knowledgeable doctor at UCSF, she has conceptually bridged the "voodoo and prayers" of (your) religion with "voodoo and prayers" of medical science and your doctors. :=)) As a doctor after my heart, another adage your daughter may find useful is: "A lot more often than we realize, patients live in spite of their doctors". And we, the doctors, should Thank God for that.
Treatment choices lie somewhere in the midst of skepticism of multiple sources (corroboration) of scientific data. The treatment should be tailored to the patient; and not the patient to the scientific study. No doctor should "insists" on what their patient should do. The physicians' role is to present the facts and information of the various options to the patient. And let the patient make the choice. After-all it is their life. The doctors may make a good faith recommendation, - the same that they would make to a very close relative. The patient also should be encouraged to do their own reading and to ask questions. As your case demonstrates, the patient, (not the doctor), that pays the ultimate price and lives with the choice / decisions and consequences. I hope you politely informed your original gynecologist what happened to you. That may be the best education he / she may receive and that would benefit their next patients. Good scientists and doctors are always humble and open to learn from experience, especially the untoward ones.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Filomena Giese wrote:

My own experience with "the latest research" is just the opposite. I learned the hard way that the "latest research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and is not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth.

He (gynecologist) insisted that "the latest research" showed that it would help me in other ways like preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis.... I did report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by but he said that I would get used to it and that the hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as beneficial to older women. In December 1991, I got a most terrible headache while taking a class. I knew it wasn't just a migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I was taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had suffered a brain haemorrage.

My daughter, who was herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me, somewhat skeptical of medical "science" as the total answer, "Mom, it's your voodoo (prayers and hope) against theirs."

Moral of the story: the "latest research" might turn out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to rush to judgement and give up operations for cancer just because the latest research says this or that, is not half wrong. My life-threatening situation arose because the gynecologist didn't pay attention to the neurologist.


-------- Santosh Helekar wrote:
I commend you on your excellent take on the tentative and provisional nature of some of the findings of medical research, and on the fallibility medical professionals. Thanks for relating your personal story about the adverse effects of hormone replacement therapy.
Santosh Helekar
2006-09-27 05:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has not
thanked you for the support. Your statements
(below) totally contradict the hard facts of the
"gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that medical
and other sciences present through research and
publications in "peer reviewed" journals.
I am sorry. This is not accurate. I have already
thanked Filomena for an excellent analysis. The rest
of what is written in the above post is also not an
accurate and fair characterization of my views. To
find out what my views are please read my response to
Filomena, and all my prior posts on this issue. I have
written extensively on the self-corrective nature of
science over the years. I humbly request Gilbert not
to put words in my mouth or to point to Frederick's or
anyone else's mischaracterization of my views. And I
ask readers not to rely on someone else's opinion of
what I said or implied. I trust Gilbert would try to
understand and respect this simple principle of any
public discourse.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mario Goveia
2006-09-28 18:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has
not thanked you for the support. Your statements
(below) totally contradict the hard facts of the
"gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that
medical and other sciences present through
research and publications in "peer reviewed"
journals.
I am sorry. This is not accurate. I have already
thanked Filomena for an excellent analysis.
Mario observes:
Santosh thanked Filomena for swallowing his false
interpretation of Gilbert's comments in his post
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
hook, line and sinker, obviously without critically
reading what Gilbert had originally posted in
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html
Post by Santosh Helekar
The rest of what is written in the above post is
also not an accurate and fair characterization of
my views. To find out what my views are please read
my response to Filomena, and all my prior posts on
this issue. I have written extensively on the self-
corrective nature of science over the years. I
humbly request Gilbert not to put words in my mouth
or to point to Frederick's or anyone else's
mischaracterization of my views. And I ask readers
not to rely on someone else's opinion of what I
said or implied. I trust Gilbert would try to
understand and respect this simple principle of any
public discourse.
Mario observes:
The only one mischaracterizing and obfuscating his own
previously written views, and continuing to do so, is
Santosh. No one is asking anyone to rely on anyone
else's representations. Just the opposite. I am
asking people to critically read what Gilbert and
Santosh said in their own words.
It is very important for readers to first carefully
read Gilbert's original post in the URL above, and
then compare this with Santosh's response shown in the
other URL above.
Readers then need to read Kevin's post
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048373.html
where he gave Santosh a chance to reconsider.
Rather than do so, Santosh responded to Kevin in
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048416.html
where he REPEATED his false allegations of what
Gilbert had posted.
Readers also need to keep in mind that the topic here
is cancer. Gilbert is an experienced Board Certified
oncologist being accused by Santosh with the following
opening statement, "The post appended below propagates
dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer
treatment in this public forum."
Santosh describes himself in another forum as follows:
"Baylor College of Medicine in Houston is a habitat
for all kinds of minds, where mine got me a Ph.D. in
brain science, working me long and hard trying to
understand what is wrong with the brain cells of mice
that are genetically prone to have epileptic seizures.
There, my mind, with more time in the postdoctoral
slammer, even eked out a basic discovery relevant to
how normal brain cells develop mature communication
channels. There, I could even become a certified
armchair thinker, and have my thoughts packaged as a
bona fide theory to explain how literal sparks become
figurative ones." [end of excerpt]
While I have no doubt that Santosh is an excellent
researcher in his field, his field is not cancer.
So, who would YOU consult if you found you had cancer?
Gilbert, or Santosh?
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-09-29 00:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,

Thank you for your polite response. I fully concur with your statement below about the "self-corrective nature of science". The question I have for you (and others) is: Are not other fields like religion, politics, history, government etc. also "self-correcting" over time? So we cannot condemn medicine / science for its past mistakes, because it self-corrects. Yet, can we keep constantly condemning religion, other fields and major institutions for their historical mistakes, as you and a few Goanetters tend to do. I do not want your rebuttal. I just request your consideration of this point when you (and others) stand on the soap-box.

I am sure you realize, that until medicine self-corrects, perhaps in a decade or so, a lot of patients are the victims of flawed treatments and recommendations in the interim. Just look at the large number of drugs that have been pulled off the shelf or the changing medical practice patterns in various diseases. So medicine / science, as well as we physicians and scientists, do not have a monopoly on self-righteousness and wisdom.

Mario quoted you verbatim (with web links) in his response to Filomena. Hence, my line of reasoning was not your exact words; but rather what an unbiased reader understood from your parsed writings? Either our intelligent Filomena had a problem understanding your English / writings. Or she was demagoging the subject and me by implying, that I was promoting that, we should do away with surgery in cancer management.

In fact, you were so good in your writings on this subject that I was confused by what you were trying to say. You condemned me for reporting on the mice experiment that suggest surgery alters the immune system and making the cancer behave more aggressively. To quote you, I was: "Propagates dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this public forum."
Then you went ahead and directed readers to many references on exactly similar findings (of suppressed immune markers after surgery) in humans. So this supurlo Goenkar (moi) did not know whether to laugh or to cry. Similarly you provided a link about the near-absolute need to do a biopsy to diagnose / confirm a new cancer. This is something that one did not need a rocket scientist to validate.:=)) That is why it looked to me like a "fuggdi". :=))

Kind Regards, GL

------------ Santosh Helekar

I have written extensively on the self-corrective nature of science over the years.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-01 04:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So this supurlo Goenkar (moi) did not know whether to
laugh or to cry. Similarly you provided a link about
the near-absolute need to do a biopsy to diagnose /
confirm a new cancer. This is something that one did
not need a rocket scientist to validate.:=)) That is
why it looked to me like a "fuggdi". :=))
Hi Gilbert,

It is very clear that you and I have a strong
disagreement about your post on the so-called
grandmother?s kaannee regarding cancer treatment. If
you really want to know who is right, I could ask a
well-recognized Goan cancer surgeon and researcher,
who is very knowledgeable about this issue, to comment
on that post of yours, and then post his commentary on
Goanet. Do you want me to do that? Please let me know.
Regarding your other points, my comments are
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The question I have for you (and others) is: Are not
other fields like religion, politics, history,
government etc. also "self-correcting" over time?
A self-correcting field changes its beliefs and
assumptions based on objective evidence. In the above
list only history satisfies this definition with any
degree of consistency. Religion, especially, is almost
never self-correcting by its very nature.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So we cannot condemn medicine / science for its past
mistakes, because it self-corrects.
Who claimed that we cannot condemn medicine/science
for anything? My view is that we absolutely must
condemn medicine/science for their past and present
wrongdoings.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Yet, can we keep constantly condemning religion,
other >fields and major institutions for their
historical >mistakes, as you and a few Goanetters tend
to do.
My view is that we have to condemn these fields, as
well, for their past and present wrongdoings. We
cannot give them special immunity.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So medicine / science, as well as we physicians and
scientists, do not have a monopoly on
self-righteousness and wisdom.
Who claimed that they did?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Mario quoted you verbatim (with web links) in his
response to Filomena.
I don?t think Mario understands this issue very well.
I would humbly request you to ignore whatever he is
saying about me in general.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Hence, my line of reasoning was not your exact words;
but rather what an unbiased reader understood from
your parsed writings?
Please forgive me for being blunt. But let me
respectfully submit to you that your line of reasoning
as far as my views are concerned is neither unbiased
nor accurate.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Either our intelligent Filomena had a problem
understanding your English / writings.
Filomena is an extremely smart, perceptive and
knowledgeable lady. She understood exactly what I was
saying and implying.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
To quote you, I was: "Propagates dangerous myths and
misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this
public forum."
Sorry, but I have to stand by my assertion. Again, I
respectfully suggest to you that if you give me
permission to ask a Goan cancer surgery expert to
comment on your post, we can settle this issue once
and for all. Do I have your permission?

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2006-09-18 05:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Dear Roland,

An interesting question indeed. Sometime ago, I was
mulling over whether Goans are predominantly
conservative or liberal as per the loosely used
meaning of the terms.

Goa itself in bifurcating into two different
world-views. There is North Goa and then there is
South Goa, there are the central parts of Goa
connected by the NH17 and then there are the
hinterlands and far-flung talukas like Sanguem and
Canacona, which are quite unique in their perspective.
Within these two worlds exist difference formed and
defined by exposure to media, external influences,
education, city-life and parochialism.

Other than Wendell Rodrigues, I don't think there are
too many homosexual men or women leading openly gay
lifestyles. I think Wendell is courageous to take on
this flame torch on behalf of his tribe.

I don't even know if a word for homosexuality exists
in Konkani. My parents and in-laws refer to men who
might be gay using the Portuguese word "effeminade".
So in response to your question, in my experience
Goans are still not very exposed to it.

Selma
------------------------------------
Post by Roland Francis
With regard to Kevin's link to the Lutheran
website/debate on
homsexuality acceptance and the matter of celibacy
(it truly is a mind
As Goans, what is our outlook towards
homosexuality.
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Mario Goveia
2006-09-19 15:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by saligao
Hi Selma,
Wendell has been a beacon of hope for so many in a
land steeped in
hypocrisy and prejudice. He made international news
a few years ago and
continues to 'walk the walk' for gay rights and the
environment in Goa.
http://www.marriagedebate.com/2004/02/gay-marriage-debate-goes-global-slowly
Post by saligao
.htm
However, I'm not so sure about our new Bush-clone PM
Steven Harper's plans
to re-open the same-sex marriage issue that has been
settled by the highest
court in the land.
http://www.equal-marriage.ca/resource.php?id=517
Mario responds:
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
I'm so glad that Kevin and Selma are ecstatic that
Wendell has been a "beacon of hope" for gays in Goa.
I, too, am glad for all of them, as it must be
difficult to be gay in straight-laced Goa.
However, as usual Kevin, who preaches tolerance and
conciliation snidely interspersed with exactly the
opposite, takes this opportumity to obfuscate the
debate about gay marriage in the US and Canada.
Apparently in Canada, as in Britain, any time their
leader happens to have an opinion that crosses paths
with the US-administration, they are referred to by
their political opponents as "Bush-clones". No such
reference is made when they disagree with the US
administration.
I don't particularly care what the Canadians do so I
will restrict my remarks to the US.
Marriage in most of the US is defined as the formal
legal union of a man and a woman, not a man and a man,
or a woman and a woman, or a man and several women, or
several women and a man, or a grown-up and a child, or
a human with an non-human, all options that would open
up under anti-discrimination laws if the definition is
changed for one group. One US state, Massachussetts,
"recognizes same sex marriages", other states
recognize "civil unions". This has already led to
lawsuits by polygamists demanding the same privileges.
Those who fit the other definitions, have the ability
to enter into legal contracts with any content they
choose to include, generally referred to as "domestic
partnership" agreements or "civil unions". Even
non-gay friends who live together out of convenience
can do so. They just cannot call it "marriage",
because large percentages of Americans of all kinds,
including flaming liberals on everything else, have
legally opined through the democratic process that
they do not want the traditional and legal definition
of marriage changed.
It's as simple as that.
Carvalho
2006-09-20 04:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mario,

Why do I detect an undertone of sarcasm in your post?
If not, why else would "beacon of hope" be in inverted
commas in your message. Your post and that of Dominic
Fernandes, to me reeks of homophobia.

I don't pretend to understand homosexuality but having
known so many homosexual men, some of whom I consider
very good friends, I don't sit in judgment of it. What
goes on between two consenting adults is their own
business.

Selma
---------------------------------------------
Post by Mario Goveia
As with private religious beliefs I have no problems
with what consenting adults of any gender or
cdombination of genders do in private as long as
they
eschew stuffing it in my face.
I'm so glad that Kevin and Selma are ecstatic that
Wendell has been a "beacon of hope" for gays in Goa.
I, too, am glad for all of them, as it must be
difficult to be gay in straight-laced Goa.
__________________________________________________
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Mervyn Lobo
2006-09-20 00:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Folks,
I am sure that a lot of you have noticed that there
are some people here who are unable to debate any
subject without turning to religion. When they cannot
introduce religion into a debate, they switch to
comparing the country they live in with Canada or the
UK.

What is really sad is that some of them deliberately
set out to lie about the country they live in.

I started to read what Mario had to write about the
good ol' USA but had to stop reading after a few lines
as, in the USA, it is quite legal for an adult to
marry a 14 year old child. I had earlier pointed this
out to him on another forum.

As far as Goan homophobes are concerned, I have yet to
meet one outside Goa.

Mervyn3.0
Post by Mario Goveia
However, as usual Kevin, who preaches tolerance and
conciliation snidely interspersed with exactly the
opposite, takes this opportumity to obfuscate the
debate about gay marriage in the US and Canada.
Apparently in Canada, as in Britain, any time their
leader happens to have an opinion that crosses paths
with the US-administration, they are referred to by
their political opponents as "Bush-clones". No such
reference is made when they disagree with the US
administration.
I don't particularly care what the Canadians do so I
will restrict my remarks to the US.
Marriage in most of the US is defined as the formal
legal union of a man and a woman, not a man and a
man, or a woman and a woman, or a man and several
women, or several women and a man, or a grown-up
and a child, or a human with an non-human, all
options that would open up under anti->
discrimination laws if the definition is changed
for one group. One US state,
Massachussetts,"recognizes same sex marriages",
other states recognize "civil unions". This has
already led to lawsuits by polygamists demanding
the same privileges.
Those who fit the other definitions, have the
ability
to enter into legal contracts with any content they
choose to include, generally referred to as
"domestic
partnership" agreements or "civil unions". Even
non-gay friends who live together out of convenience
can do so. They just cannot call it "marriage",
because large percentages of Americans of all kinds,
including flaming liberals on everything else, have
legally opined through the democratic process that
they do not want the traditional and legal
definition of marriage changed.
__________________________________________________
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Bosco D'Mello
2006-09-20 05:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Your post and that of Dominic Fernandes, to me reeks of homophobia.
RESPONSE: From Webster:

One entry found for homophobia.

Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or
homosexuals

Kevin enquired if there was a Konkani word for Homosexual / Homosexuality.
Domnic Fernandes provided a word that he believes fits the terminology. Now
you state his post is homophobic ? What is your rationale ? Why condemn
Domnic's post ? It would have been appropriate if you had provided a
translated word(s) instead of thrusting an undesirable halo on Domnic's post.

It is true that some societies have become gay-friendly (for want of a better
word) and we have assimilated homosexuality as part of our ideology. Canada is
at the forefront of gay rights as Kevin earlier explained to the angst of the
Holy See.

- Bosco
Toronto, CA
Carvalho
2006-09-20 17:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Dear Darling Bosco,

It could be that I jumped the gun on Dominic (no puns
here) but in all my years as a Goan, I've never heard
this word used. If indeed this is a Goan word to
describe homosexuality, then how would one describe
heterosexuality? Potmarob? Because all you can see
protruding from Goan men, are their ample "pots". :))

Selma
Post by Carvalho
Your post and that of Dominic Fernandes, to me
reeks of homophobia.
One entry found for homophobia.
Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination
against homosexuality or
homosexuals
Kevin enquired if there was a Konkani word for
Homosexual / Homosexuality.
Domnic Fernandes provided a word that he believes
fits the terminology. Now
you state his post is homophobic ? What is your
rationale ? Why condemn
Domnic's post ? It would have been appropriate if
you had provided a
translated word(s) instead of thrusting an
undesirable halo on Domnic's post.
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Bosco D'Mello
2006-09-21 04:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carvalho
Dear Darling Bosco,
It could be that I jumped the gun on Dominic (no puns here) but in
all my years as a Goan, I've never heard this word used. If indeed
this is a Goan word to describe homosexuality, then how would one
describe heterosexuality? Potmarob? Because all you can see protruding
from Goan men, are their ample "pots". :))
Selma

RESPONSE: For starters shall we please follow Captain Morgan's filosawphee -
What happens below the deck, STAYS below the deck!

You have more than jumped the gun on this one. Besides your gaffe in the
earlier message, you have now acknowledged that you know all the Konkani words
there are to know. Viva !! A slug of Captain Morgan's to that.

Secondly you are forcefully shoving Domnic into the company of your off-key
but soloist brass player - who does the fingering and blowing without any
help. Domnic's talent is writing, with sincerity I might add. He is no brass
player.

Thirdly, I don't know which Goan men you were looking at when you saw
those "pots". Captain Morgan and his crew have labored to carry around a
chiselled 6-pack.

Let Konkani education - words, grammar, script run perennially.

Best - Bosco

PS. In all my years as a Goan, I never knew there was a place called Kamanwada
in Goa
Goa
2006-09-22 10:16:38 UTC
Permalink
EU procedures delaying issuance of passports, says Portuguese MP
NT Staff Reporter


Panaji, Sept 20: The general secretary of Portuguese Communist Party (PCP)
and the member of Portuguese Parliament, Mr Jeronimo de Souza today said
that the European Union has virtually turned Europe into a fortress and this
was the main reason for the delay in issuing Portuguese passports by the
Consulate of Portugal in Goa.

The PCP will intervene in this matter and communicate to the Portuguese
government, the views of Goans in this respect, he assured, adding that "the
PCP would do all that is possible to re-start the process of issuance of
Portuguese passports".

Mr de Souza also said that the PCP, the 85-year old party always supported
Goa in the demand for its liberation from the colonial rule. "Our struggle
against fascism in Portugal was no different from that in Goa, during the
Salazar regime," he maintained.

Stating that PCP was the only opposition political party that could survive
during the dictatorial rule of Salazar, Mr de Souza said that PCP is the
party of the people. He observed that Goa is a true friend of Portugal,
adding "In Portugal there is a saying that good friendships are made under
most difficult conditions."

The PCP general secretary said that Goa set an example for other colonies of
Portugal, to struggle for one's liberation, which was followed with great
success.

Mr de Souza who was earlier felicitated by the Goa state council of the
Communist Party of India (CPI) along with the PCP politburo member, Mr
Anjelo Alves, during a special function organised at the Institute Menezes
Braganza Hall, said that the delay in issuing Portuguese passports was not
entirely due to the bureaucratic reasons.

The commissioner for NRI affairs, Mr Eduardo Faleiro who was the chief guest
on the occasion said that colonialism is a crime against humanity, and added
that the new imperialism was being developed under the United States of
America.

"What is required is total and general nuclear disarmament and removal of
all weapons of mass destruction across the world, democracy in international
relations and respect for human rights including economic and social
rights," Mr Faleiro opined, pointing out that the peace loving people of
the world should coordinate their strategies in this direction. "A luta
continua" he pointed out, meaning the struggle continues.

Mr Faleiro also said that the human rights should also include the right of
development, making an appeal to the Western countries to maintain racial
and cultural integrity.

The city mayor, Mr Tony Rodrigues, in his speech said that the Portuguese
Consulate in the state should continue issuing Portuguese passports so that
the Goan people may get better opportunities to travel to Portugal and other
parts of Europe for employment.

The general secretary of the Goa state CPI, Mr Christopher Fonseca, in his
welcome address said that the 450 years of Portuguese domination in Goa
should not restrict us from recognising that the Portuguese have left an
indelible mark on the language, culture, art, architecture, laws and even
sports in the state, as also on the local socio-economic and political
institutions, in totality. He also acknowledged that Goa has been directly
benefited from the Uniform Civil Code.

Earlier, the CPI secretary for the international department, Mr Pallav Sen
Gupta introduced. Former IAS officer, Mr Albano Couto, well-known
educationist, Prof Suresh Amonkar, freedom fighter, Mr Shridhar Tamba,
senior journalist, Flaviano Dias and veteran trade union leader, Dr Luiza
Pereira were present on the dias.

A condolence motion was also passed on the occasion paying homage to all the
known and unknown people who fought for the liberation of Goa.
Filomena Giese
2006-09-23 05:56:06 UTC
Permalink
While about a dozen Goanet argu-pros have been
debating whether Santosh is an indecent, mo-f
in? (to
use a traditional American epithet that deserves to be
added to the Goanet lexicon of insults) atheist, and a
lamebrain pseudo-scientist, daring to question the
latest research quoted by Gilbert about cancer
operations as indisputable fact and good medical
practice, the rest of us 6,990 readers have been
thinking
. and gearing up to contribute our 2 cents?
worth.
Gilbert was talking about how the latest cancer
research about the effect of operations on tumors
validates the old kaneos that operations spread
cancer.
My own experience with ?the latest research? is just
the opposite. I learned the hard way that the "latest
research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and is
not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth. Here?s
how my story goes:
1. In July 1991, I went for my yearly checkup and pap
test to a gynecologist/obstetrician considered one of
the top ones in the San Francisco-Berkeley area. As I
was almost 51 and going through menopause, he said
that I should be on hormone replacement. I questioned
this as I had no bad symptoms except for some mild
sleeplessness. I also told him what was already in my
medical history, that I was a lifelong migraine
sufferer and extremely sensitive to hormones and other
medications. He insisted that ?the latest research?
showed that it would help me in other ways like
preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis. I did
report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by
but he said that I would get used to it and that the
hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many
studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as
beneficial to older women.
2. In December 1991, I got a most terrible headache
while taking a class. I knew it wasn?t just a
migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I was
taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical
School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had
suffered a brain haemorrage. I was operated on by
their top brain surgeon. No aneurism was found and no
apparent reason for the ?bleed? as it?s commonly
called. Incidentally, when I later told my lawyer
that I had just had a brain operation, he quipped ?Did
they find one?? Goanetters might share the same
sentiment.....
3. I was, of course, greatly impressed at all the
great medical technology that had saved my life and
brain. Others on the same floor as me were either in
a coma or in a vegetative state. My daughter, who was
herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me,
somewhat skeptical of medical ?science? as the total
answer, ?Mom, it?s your voodoo (prayers and hope)
against theirs.?
4. After recovery, I was sent to the top neurologist
at UCSF who specialized in headaches, especially
migraines. It turned out that he had presented a
paper at a medical conference not even a year before,
cautioning giving hormone replacement therapy (HRT) to
women with migraine and advising that certain cautions
should be taken because there was a higher risk of
stroke in such women. Obviously, my gynecologist was
not aware of the latest in neurological research. The
UCSF neurosurgeon and neurologist recommended that I
stop HRT. I changed gynecologists, naturally.
5. Subsequent research has shown that hormone
replacement therapy causes strokes and even heart
attacks in many women, not just those with a history
of migraine. It has been largely discontinued, I'm
told. HRT is also not recommended for women with
breast and other gynecological cancers many of which
are related to higher estrogen levels.

Moral of the story: the ?latest research? might turn
out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to rush
to judgement and give up operations for cancer just
because the latest research says this or that, is not
half wrong.
My life-threatening situation arose because the
gynecologist didn?t pay attention to the neurologist.
Now, if defenders of our resident Goanet gynecologist,
Gilbert, were to pay respectful attention to our
resident Goanet neurologist, Santosh, who knows, we
may well be on the way to achieving peace and amity on
Goanet
..
Filomena


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Santosh Helekar
2006-09-24 16:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Dear Filomena,

I commend you on your excellent take on the tentative
and provisional nature of some of the findings of
medical research, and on the fallibility medical
professionals. Thanks for relating your personal story
about the adverse effects of hormone replacement
therapy.

On a personal note, I am impressed by your keen
observational skills in commenting on the decent
professional practice of insinuating in public forums
that a professional colleague is a pseudo-scientist. A
minor correction though is that Gilbert is a
distinguished radiation oncologist, who I believe, is
board-certified in Therapeutic Radiology, and I am a
neuroscientist.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Filomena Giese
While about a dozen Goanet argu-pros have been
debating whether Santosh is an indecent, mo-f
in'
Post by Filomena Giese
(to
use a traditional American epithet that deserves to
be
added to the Goanet lexicon of insults) atheist, and
a
lamebrain pseudo-scientist, daring to question the
latest research quoted by Gilbert about cancer
operations as indisputable fact and good medical
practice, the rest of us 6,990 readers have been
thinking
. and gearing up to contribute our 2 cents'
Post by Filomena Giese
worth.
Gilbert was talking about how the latest cancer
research about the effect of operations on tumors
validates the old kaneos that operations spread
cancer.
My own experience with "the latest research" is just
the opposite. I learned the hard way that the
"latest
research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and
is
not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth. Here's
1. In July 1991, I went for my yearly checkup
and pap
test to a gynecologist/obstetrician considered one
of
the top ones in the San Francisco-Berkeley area. As
I
was almost 51 and going through menopause, he said
that I should be on hormone replacement. I
questioned
this as I had no bad symptoms except for some mild
sleeplessness. I also told him what was already in
my
medical history, that I was a lifelong migraine
sufferer and extremely sensitive to hormones and
other
medications. He insisted that "the latest research"
showed that it would help me in other ways like
preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis. I did
report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by
but he said that I would get used to it and that the
hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many
studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as
beneficial to older women.
2. In December 1991, I got a most terrible
headache
while taking a class. I knew it wasn't just a
migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I
was
taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical
School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had
suffered a brain haemorrage. I was operated on by
their top brain surgeon. No aneurism was found and
no
apparent reason for the "bleed" as it's commonly
called. Incidentally, when I later told my lawyer
that I had just had a brain operation, he quipped
"Did
they find one?" Goanetters might share the same
sentiment.....
3. I was, of course, greatly impressed at all
the
great medical technology that had saved my life and
brain. Others on the same floor as me were either
in
a coma or in a vegetative state. My daughter, who
was
herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me,
somewhat skeptical of medical "science" as the total
answer, "Mom, it's your voodoo (prayers and hope)
against theirs."
4. After recovery, I was sent to the top
neurologist
at UCSF who specialized in headaches, especially
migraines. It turned out that he had presented a
paper at a medical conference not even a year
before,
cautioning giving hormone replacement therapy (HRT)
to
women with migraine and advising that certain
cautions
should be taken because there was a higher risk of
stroke in such women. Obviously, my gynecologist
was
not aware of the latest in neurological research.
The
UCSF neurosurgeon and neurologist recommended that I
stop HRT. I changed gynecologists, naturally.
5. Subsequent research has shown that hormone
replacement therapy causes strokes and even heart
attacks in many women, not just those with a history
of migraine. It has been largely discontinued, I'm
told. HRT is also not recommended for women with
breast and other gynecological cancers many of which
are related to higher estrogen levels.
Moral of the story: the "latest research" might
turn
out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to
rush
to judgement and give up operations for cancer just
because the latest research says this or that, is
not
half wrong.
My life-threatening situation arose because the
gynecologist didn't pay attention to the
neurologist.
Now, if defenders of our resident Goanet
gynecologist,
Gilbert, were to pay respectful attention to our
resident Goanet neurologist, Santosh, who knows, we
may well be on the way to achieving peace and amity
on
Goanet
..
Post by Filomena Giese
Filomena
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-09-27 00:06:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi Filomena,

With all due respects to you, what you say, that I said .... is not what I said that you say. In fact it is just the opposite.

You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has not thanked you for the support. Your statements (below) totally contradict the hard facts of the "gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that medical and other sciences present through research and publications in "peer reviewed" journals. The contrarian view is the point Fred, others and I have been making under the thread / title of "Another Kaneo .. or is it .. Hot Air?" which was an offshoot of "Science as a religion". All of us have had little success getting our point across. Perhaps with your personal story and specially the "moral of the story" some of our readers will be more aware of what we have been writing.

Your comment, "Santosh, in warning us not to rush to judgement and give up operations for cancer" (second line last paragraph), as a neutral reader of this discussion / thread, shows what a "fine job" Santosh has been doing with distorting my writings. In none of my posts did I state that there was no role for the surgeon or surgery in cancer management. In fact in my very first post, I clearly state that surgery has moved from radical / aggressive surgery to organ-sparing / conservative surgery. And more recently I stated we have gone from Open Biopsy to Needle Biopsy.

Thank you for sharing your personal medical story with us. It brings home many mistakes that physicians and researchers make. Oops! Did I say mistakes by physicians and researchers? Mistakes are supposedly only confined to religion; And physicians are supposed to correct those religion mistakes. Should we give the padres equal time and space to opine on the "dangerous (medical) myth and is not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth" (quoting you)?
From your post below, you have a very smart daughter. As a budding knowledgeable doctor at UCSF, she has conceptually bridged the "voodoo and prayers" of (your) religion with "voodoo and prayers" of medical science and your doctors. :=)) As a doctor after my heart, another adage your daughter may find useful is: "A lot more often than we realize, patients live in spite of their doctors". And we, the doctors, should Thank God for that.
Treatment choices lie somewhere in the midst of skepticism of multiple sources (corroboration) of scientific data. The treatment should be tailored to the patient; and not the patient to the scientific study. No doctor should "insists" on what their patient should do. The physicians' role is to present the facts and information of the various options to the patient. And let the patient make the choice. After-all it is their life. The doctors may make a good faith recommendation, - the same that they would make to a very close relative. The patient also should be encouraged to do their own reading and to ask questions. As your case demonstrates, the patient, (not the doctor), that pays the ultimate price and lives with the choice / decisions and consequences. I hope you politely informed your original gynecologist what happened to you. That may be the best education he / she may receive and that would benefit their next patients. Good scientists and doctors are always humble and open to learn from experience, especially the untoward ones.
Kind Regards, GL

------------ Filomena Giese wrote:

My own experience with "the latest research" is just the opposite. I learned the hard way that the "latest research" could turn out to be a dangerous myth and is not to be relied on as absolute gospel truth.

He (gynecologist) insisted that "the latest research" showed that it would help me in other ways like preventing heart attacks and osteoporosis.... I did report feeling somewhat dizzy as the months went by but he said that I would get used to it and that the hormone replacement therapy had been proved in many studies in the U.S. and U.K. and elsewhere as beneficial to older women. In December 1991, I got a most terrible headache while taking a class. I knew it wasn't just a migraine and asked to be taken to the hospital. I was taken to UCSF (University of San Francisco Medical School and Hospital). The MRI showed that I had suffered a brain haemorrage.

My daughter, who was herself doing her residency at UCSF said to me, somewhat skeptical of medical "science" as the total answer, "Mom, it's your voodoo (prayers and hope) against theirs."

Moral of the story: the "latest research" might turn out to be a myth. Santosh, in warning us not to rush to judgement and give up operations for cancer just because the latest research says this or that, is not half wrong. My life-threatening situation arose because the gynecologist didn't pay attention to the neurologist.


-------- Santosh Helekar wrote:
I commend you on your excellent take on the tentative and provisional nature of some of the findings of medical research, and on the fallibility medical professionals. Thanks for relating your personal story about the adverse effects of hormone replacement therapy.
Santosh Helekar
2006-09-27 05:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has not
thanked you for the support. Your statements
(below) totally contradict the hard facts of the
"gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that medical
and other sciences present through research and
publications in "peer reviewed" journals.
I am sorry. This is not accurate. I have already
thanked Filomena for an excellent analysis. The rest
of what is written in the above post is also not an
accurate and fair characterization of my views. To
find out what my views are please read my response to
Filomena, and all my prior posts on this issue. I have
written extensively on the self-corrective nature of
science over the years. I humbly request Gilbert not
to put words in my mouth or to point to Frederick's or
anyone else's mischaracterization of my views. And I
ask readers not to rely on someone else's opinion of
what I said or implied. I trust Gilbert would try to
understand and respect this simple principle of any
public discourse.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mario Goveia
2006-09-28 18:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
You appear to support Santosh. Yet wisely he has
not thanked you for the support. Your statements
(below) totally contradict the hard facts of the
"gospel truth" that Santosh has claimed that
medical and other sciences present through
research and publications in "peer reviewed"
journals.
I am sorry. This is not accurate. I have already
thanked Filomena for an excellent analysis.
Mario observes:
Santosh thanked Filomena for swallowing his false
interpretation of Gilbert's comments in his post
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
hook, line and sinker, obviously without critically
reading what Gilbert had originally posted in
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048340.html
Post by Santosh Helekar
The rest of what is written in the above post is
also not an accurate and fair characterization of
my views. To find out what my views are please read
my response to Filomena, and all my prior posts on
this issue. I have written extensively on the self-
corrective nature of science over the years. I
humbly request Gilbert not to put words in my mouth
or to point to Frederick's or anyone else's
mischaracterization of my views. And I ask readers
not to rely on someone else's opinion of what I
said or implied. I trust Gilbert would try to
understand and respect this simple principle of any
public discourse.
Mario observes:
The only one mischaracterizing and obfuscating his own
previously written views, and continuing to do so, is
Santosh. No one is asking anyone to rely on anyone
else's representations. Just the opposite. I am
asking people to critically read what Gilbert and
Santosh said in their own words.
It is very important for readers to first carefully
read Gilbert's original post in the URL above, and
then compare this with Santosh's response shown in the
other URL above.
Readers then need to read Kevin's post
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048373.html
where he gave Santosh a chance to reconsider.
Rather than do so, Santosh responded to Kevin in
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048416.html
where he REPEATED his false allegations of what
Gilbert had posted.
Readers also need to keep in mind that the topic here
is cancer. Gilbert is an experienced Board Certified
oncologist being accused by Santosh with the following
opening statement, "The post appended below propagates
dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer
treatment in this public forum."
Santosh describes himself in another forum as follows:
"Baylor College of Medicine in Houston is a habitat
for all kinds of minds, where mine got me a Ph.D. in
brain science, working me long and hard trying to
understand what is wrong with the brain cells of mice
that are genetically prone to have epileptic seizures.
There, my mind, with more time in the postdoctoral
slammer, even eked out a basic discovery relevant to
how normal brain cells develop mature communication
channels. There, I could even become a certified
armchair thinker, and have my thoughts packaged as a
bona fide theory to explain how literal sparks become
figurative ones." [end of excerpt]
While I have no doubt that Santosh is an excellent
researcher in his field, his field is not cancer.
So, who would YOU consult if you found you had cancer?
Gilbert, or Santosh?
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-09-29 00:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Santosh,

Thank you for your polite response. I fully concur with your statement below about the "self-corrective nature of science". The question I have for you (and others) is: Are not other fields like religion, politics, history, government etc. also "self-correcting" over time? So we cannot condemn medicine / science for its past mistakes, because it self-corrects. Yet, can we keep constantly condemning religion, other fields and major institutions for their historical mistakes, as you and a few Goanetters tend to do. I do not want your rebuttal. I just request your consideration of this point when you (and others) stand on the soap-box.

I am sure you realize, that until medicine self-corrects, perhaps in a decade or so, a lot of patients are the victims of flawed treatments and recommendations in the interim. Just look at the large number of drugs that have been pulled off the shelf or the changing medical practice patterns in various diseases. So medicine / science, as well as we physicians and scientists, do not have a monopoly on self-righteousness and wisdom.

Mario quoted you verbatim (with web links) in his response to Filomena. Hence, my line of reasoning was not your exact words; but rather what an unbiased reader understood from your parsed writings? Either our intelligent Filomena had a problem understanding your English / writings. Or she was demagoging the subject and me by implying, that I was promoting that, we should do away with surgery in cancer management.

In fact, you were so good in your writings on this subject that I was confused by what you were trying to say. You condemned me for reporting on the mice experiment that suggest surgery alters the immune system and making the cancer behave more aggressively. To quote you, I was: "Propagates dangerous myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this public forum."
Then you went ahead and directed readers to many references on exactly similar findings (of suppressed immune markers after surgery) in humans. So this supurlo Goenkar (moi) did not know whether to laugh or to cry. Similarly you provided a link about the near-absolute need to do a biopsy to diagnose / confirm a new cancer. This is something that one did not need a rocket scientist to validate.:=)) That is why it looked to me like a "fuggdi". :=))

Kind Regards, GL

------------ Santosh Helekar

I have written extensively on the self-corrective nature of science over the years.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-01 04:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So this supurlo Goenkar (moi) did not know whether to
laugh or to cry. Similarly you provided a link about
the near-absolute need to do a biopsy to diagnose /
confirm a new cancer. This is something that one did
not need a rocket scientist to validate.:=)) That is
why it looked to me like a "fuggdi". :=))
Hi Gilbert,

It is very clear that you and I have a strong
disagreement about your post on the so-called
grandmother?s kaannee regarding cancer treatment. If
you really want to know who is right, I could ask a
well-recognized Goan cancer surgeon and researcher,
who is very knowledgeable about this issue, to comment
on that post of yours, and then post his commentary on
Goanet. Do you want me to do that? Please let me know.
Regarding your other points, my comments are
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
The question I have for you (and others) is: Are not
other fields like religion, politics, history,
government etc. also "self-correcting" over time?
A self-correcting field changes its beliefs and
assumptions based on objective evidence. In the above
list only history satisfies this definition with any
degree of consistency. Religion, especially, is almost
never self-correcting by its very nature.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So we cannot condemn medicine / science for its past
mistakes, because it self-corrects.
Who claimed that we cannot condemn medicine/science
for anything? My view is that we absolutely must
condemn medicine/science for their past and present
wrongdoings.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Yet, can we keep constantly condemning religion,
other >fields and major institutions for their
historical >mistakes, as you and a few Goanetters tend
to do.
My view is that we have to condemn these fields, as
well, for their past and present wrongdoings. We
cannot give them special immunity.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
So medicine / science, as well as we physicians and
scientists, do not have a monopoly on
self-righteousness and wisdom.
Who claimed that they did?
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Mario quoted you verbatim (with web links) in his
response to Filomena.
I don?t think Mario understands this issue very well.
I would humbly request you to ignore whatever he is
saying about me in general.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Hence, my line of reasoning was not your exact words;
but rather what an unbiased reader understood from
your parsed writings?
Please forgive me for being blunt. But let me
respectfully submit to you that your line of reasoning
as far as my views are concerned is neither unbiased
nor accurate.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
Either our intelligent Filomena had a problem
understanding your English / writings.
Filomena is an extremely smart, perceptive and
knowledgeable lady. She understood exactly what I was
saying and implying.
Post by Gilbert Lawrence
To quote you, I was: "Propagates dangerous myths and
misinformation regarding cancer treatment in this
public forum."
Sorry, but I have to stand by my assertion. Again, I
respectfully suggest to you that if you give me
permission to ask a Goan cancer surgery expert to
comment on your post, we can settle this issue once
and for all. Do I have your permission?

Cheers,

Santosh
Carvalho
2006-09-18 05:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Dear Roland,

An interesting question indeed. Sometime ago, I was
mulling over whether Goans are predominantly
conservative or liberal as per the loosely used
meaning of the terms.

Goa itself in bifurcating into two different
world-views. There is North Goa and then there is
South Goa, there are the central parts of Goa
connected by the NH17 and then there are the
hinterlands and far-flung talukas like Sanguem and
Canacona, which are quite unique in their perspective.
Within these two worlds exist difference formed and
defined by exposure to media, external influences,
education, city-life and parochialism.

Other than Wendell Rodrigues, I don't think there are
too many homosexual men or women leading openly gay
lifestyles. I think Wendell is courageous to take on
this flame torch on behalf of his tribe.

I don't even know if a word for homosexuality exists
in Konkani. My parents and in-laws refer to men who
might be gay using the Portuguese word "effeminade".
So in response to your question, in my experience
Goans are still not very exposed to it.

Selma
------------------------------------
Post by Roland Francis
With regard to Kevin's link to the Lutheran
website/debate on
homsexuality acceptance and the matter of celibacy
(it truly is a mind
As Goans, what is our outlook towards
homosexuality.
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