[Goanet] War in Iraq

[Bosco D'Mello]

In reply to various messages. My comments with +++

I am so glad that today India possesses a nuclear

deterrent.

+++ And what do you think India can do with the nuclear
deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike (like the
Americans with(out) UN sanction) Pakistan for fomenting
terrorism in Kashmir ??

+++ And like Tariq rightly pointed out - the economic
weapon is just as powerful as the military one !!

We are now in April 2003. Nearly a year since

Afghanistan was "liberated". However, the promises of
elections and democracy are as faint as ever. After
all, why bother with that, when you have your lackey in
power there right?

+++ For a country ravaged by war and 3 generations that
have only known war, it is and will be difficult to
organize those "elections". Karzai's safety is only
guaranteed within Kabul. Surely Tariq you are not
suggesting that things would have been better if the
Taliban was still in power ?

I will try and answer the last two.

1) My solution to Iraq would be to get the Iraqi Govt
to destroy any/all weapons of mass destruction.
2) I would deal with them thru the U.N. The U.N. had
inspectors in the Iraq. The Iraqi govt was destroying
the weapons that were deemed illegal by the UN.

+++ I suppose that's what the world (UN) has been
telling the Iraqi government for the last 12 years. How
many resolutions did it take for Iraq to realize that
those weapons that they recently destroyed were illegal
as per the UN. Why did they build these weapons
post-Gulf War even though UN resolutions had
pre-emptively declared them illegal. Something to think
about. We wish things were really simple, right ??

+++ Even though UN sanctions were in place, Iraq
successfully tried to re-create their arsenal post-Gulf
War. Furthermore they created new weapons in the last
12 years. At the same time blaming the US and other
countries for various illnesses faced by Iraqi people
due to the sanctions. Saddam continued to build palace
after palace while Iraqi children faced malnutrition
and the Iraqi people faced hunger. Valuable resources
were diverted for maintaining his grip on power. Don't
ignore these facts !!

No WMD which Iraq may or may not have would have

reached America.

+++ Why the may or may not have ?? Are you convinced
they exist or not ??

Sure, so that gives the licence to the USA to kill

some more ?

+++ No it does not !! But then unfortunately innocent
people have always died in wars of independence (East
Timor, etc) and liberation (Kosovo, Afghanistan, etc).
Wars are never predictable - with or without "shock and
awe". But despots like Saddam Hussein have to go !

If one really needed to get rid of Saddam a single

snipper could have done the job.

+++ I guess we've all watched too many movies. I don't
know if you are aware but Saddam Hussein has not made a
public appearance in over 2 years. He has made numerous
appearances on Iraqi TV only. I wonder when he last
made a trip abroad ??

Who is responsible for all the diseases that are

going to set in even fifty years later ?

+++ It should go down in history that Saddam Hussein
was responsible for all the ills that the Iraqi people
had to endure for the last 30+ years and for
generations to come.

And why all this? Because they want the oil.

+++ Yes, it probably is all about oil....and will be
for a long time to come. The American way of life is
threatened by steep oil prices.....I don't think the
GoaNetters in the US and Canada are happy with the
price of gas/petrol at the pump. Just the rising price
of gas/petrol triggers a domino effect on the economy.
Look at inflation numbers since January 2003. The spurt
in inflation was mostly attributed to the spike of
gas/petrol prices. So the US is defending their
interests. And by doing so are also doing the dirty
work for the rest of the world.

And tell me what kind of a democracy in Iraq can a

fake democracy like the USA create ?

+++ So if the US is a fake democracy, please tell us
where in the world can we find 'real' democracy.

+++ Most of the anti-American sentiments expressed here
are by US-based netters. That's the wonderful thing
about the US - civil liberty ! Even a serving
President's private life was made public with lurid
details. Can this happen in most countries ??

This may not be the last war the US fights in the
Middle-East. They will be back, if their interests are
threatened.....you can only do this and more, when you
are the only SUPER-POWER !!

- Bosco

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[Tim de Mello]

From: "Bosco D'Mello" <bospam at canada.com>
+++ And what do you think India can do with the nuclear
deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike (like the
Americans with(out) UN sanction) Pakistan for fomenting
terrorism in Kashmir ??

=======

"nuclear deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike . . "

I think this is called an Oxymoron.

Tim de Mello
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[Mervyn Lobo]

Post by Bosco D'Mello
I suppose that's what the world (UN) has been
telling the Iraqi government for the last 12 years.
How
many resolutions did it take for Iraq to realize
that those weapons that they recently destroyed were
illegal
as per the UN. Why did they build these weapons
post-Gulf War even though UN resolutions had
pre-emptively declared them illegal. Something to
think about. We wish things were really simple,

right ??


Bosco,
According to Canadian press reports, just prior to the
start of the US attack, Iraq was destroying the
weapons deemed illegal by the UN.

The US was forcing Saddam Hussien into becoming an
impotent dictator.

However, the US was not satisfied with the situation.
Some people in the White House wanted war. War at any
cost.

And now the same team is warning Iran, Syria, Korea,
"Hey buddies, you are next."

Mervyn








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[Eddie]

--- Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote:
I suppose that's what the world (UN) has been

Post by Bosco D'Mello
telling the Iraqi government for the last 12 years.
How
many resolutions did it take for Iraq to realize
that those weapons that they recently destroyed were
illegal
as per the UN. Why did they build these weapons
post-Gulf War even though UN resolutions had
pre-emptively declared them illegal. Something to
think about. We wish things were really simple,

right ??

As someone rightly said: UN is good in peace keeping not peace making!

Eddie Verdes

[James Almeida]

Folks,

I'd recommend that you may find the following worth reading:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/05/arts/05WARB.html?ex=1050537942&ei=1&en=7fec98f7a73f7185

(you have to register at the NY Times website - it's FREE!).


My sense is that the combatants on either side of the war debated on GN
would find that this provides a quick summary of the intellectual basis used
for this action. It's naive to rely on media caricatures (of 43, or any
other politician - regardless what David Frum opines!) to form one's
assessment of their intellectual capacities.

Speaking about the intellectual basis for this war, some of you may also
find it interesting to read a piece written by Paul Berman in the March 23
issue of the NY Times magazine (I've a hard copy, but I presume a soft copy
could be had from the Times website for a small fee) on the "Al Qaeda
philosopher", Sayyid Qutb.

Happy reading (don't forget that the US springs forward this weekend!)
James




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[Tariq Siddiqui]

Post by James Almeida
My sense is that the combatants on either side of the war debated on GN
would find that this provides a quick summary of the intellectual basis used
for this action. It's naive to rely on media caricatures (of 43, or any
other politician - regardless what David Frum opines!) to form one's
assessment of their intellectual capacities.

A better reading can be found here.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=280279&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
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Laker Hater !!!
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[Tariq Siddiqui]

Post by James Almeida
My sense is that the combatants on either side of the war debated on GN
would find that this provides a quick summary of the intellectual basis used
for this action. It's naive to rely on media caricatures (of 43, or any
other politician - regardless what David Frum opines!) to form one's
assessment of their intellectual capacities.

A better reading can be found here.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=280279&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************

[Bosco D'Mello]

I am so glad that today India possesses a nuclear

deterrent.

+++ And what do you think India can do with the

nuclear deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike (like
the Americans with(out) UN sanction) Pakistan for
fomenting terrorism in Kashmir ??

"nuclear deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike . . "
I think this is called an Oxymoron.

+++ So why do we have to be glad that India has a
nuclear deterrent. All those efforts in the nuclear
weapons field could have instead been utilized in the
nuclear power generation field. But then again....how
many chest-thumping Indians would that have produced ?

*********************

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[Chimbelcho]

My sense is that the combatants on either side of the war debated on GN would find >that this provides a quick summary of the intellectual basis used for this action.

We were told that the justification for this war of invasion was that Iraq possessed chemical and biological weapons in enough quantities to pose a threat to the rest of the world, including United States.

Now that the invasion is well under way I want to see these weapons found in Iraq. If they are not found, and it is established that Iraq did not possess them after all, I want to see those who have lied to us about these weapons prosecuted, impeached and convicted for crimes against humanity, along with Saddaam Hussein, Chemical Ali and others who have murdered people for ideological and political reasons.

I am waiting to see what happens, and my faith in democracy, justice and the rule of law rests heavily on the final outcome.

Cheers,

Samtosh

[Bosco D'Mello]

Mervyn,

Post by Mervyn Lobo
According to Canadian press reports, just prior to

the start of the US attack, Iraq was destroying the
weapons deemed illegal by the UN.

+++ Yes, but why did they create/build these weapons in
the first place ?? They knew the contents of the
resolutions that brought about an end of Gulf War I.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
The US was forcing Saddam Hussien into becoming an
impotent dictator.

+++ How do we measure potency ?? Even after being
hammered for the last 2 weeks, SH is still a potent
threat. Look at the way the people in the South are
reacting now that they know SH has lost control over
them. The Americans offered SH a chance to play along
in their interests. But he refused !! Less than 2 years
after a draining 8-year war with Iran, SH thought it
prudent to invade tiny Kuwait and even harboured plans
of continuing into the eastern Saudi oilfields.

Talking of potent dictators we have in our
neighbourhood Musharraf with his finger on the nuclear
trigger. His turn will come too (if he threatens US
economic interests) and India will fall over backwards
to assist the US in "regime-change". But for now
Musharraf serves US economic interests.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
However, the US was not satisfied with the situation.
Some people in the White House wanted war. War at any
cost.

+++ That's right....The point I am trying to make is
that the US feels itself threatened economically and is
taking military action to further and defend it's
economic interests and way of life. There is nothing a
France, a Germany, a Russia or anybody else can do
about it because the US is the only superpower in the
world today - whether we like it or not !!

We know the US has bulldozed and shafted the Canadians
on a number of trade/economic issues - soft-wood
lumber, steel, agriculture, travel, etc.....
irrespective of GATT, WTO rulings. So much for the
hullaballoo about NAFTA !!

And for those messages/views among GoaNetters about
ignorance among American citizens - it works fine for
the US as far as US economic interests are concerned.
Americans know less about the world, travel less and
spend most of their dollars in America. The rest of the
world is "so knowledgable" about the US that they keep
pouring(investing) dollars into the US economy. There's
something that attracts the rest of the world to the
US, isn't it ?? US consumerism has even invaded Goa aka
Pepsi, Coke, etc....

Who wins ??

And ofcourse Iraqi oil and others will pay for this
war....you don't expect the US taxpayer to foot this
bill and lose all those tax-cuts Prez Bush has promised
them.

Best wishes - Bosco

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[Tim de Mello]

From: Chimbelcho at aol.com
We were told that the justification for this war of invasion was that Iraq
possessed chemical and biological weapons in enough quantities to pose a
threat to the rest of the world, including United States.
Now that the invasion is well under way I want to see these weapons found
in Iraq. If they are not found, and it is established that Iraq did not
possess them after all, I want to see those who have lied to us about these
weapons prosecuted, impeached and convicted for crimes against humanity,
along with Saddaam Hussein, Chemical Ali and others who have murdered
people for ideological and political reasons.
I am waiting to see what happens, and my faith in democracy, justice and
the rule of law rests heavily on the final outcome.

========

Lots of us are waiting for the same.
But allow me to make a prediction. They will "find" WMDs and concoct a story
just like in 1991 they "found" an eye-witness nurse who horrified the
American public with tales of Kuwaiti babies being thrown out of their
incubators by inhuman Iraqi soldiers so that they could take these
incubators to Iraq. That is how the administration manipulated and obtained
public opinion approval. This, in my mind, was the seminal event that
launched the 1991 war. Turns out that this eye witness was the niece of the
Kuwaiti ambassador and was not in Kuwait at all.

Very easy to do when you possess WMDs yourself.

Tim de Mello
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[George Pinto]

Santosh,

You underestimate the ability of the CIA and the USA war mafia to plant WMD and then "discover"
them. DOn't hold your breath, WMD will be found and upon close inspection they will reveal "Made
in the USA" tags.

We live in unfortunate times and the "Project for the New American Century" (see
http://www.newamericancentury.org/) people under the guise of democracy and human rights will kill
innocent civilians to achieve their aims. This time it is Iraq, next time who? Bill Kristol who
is Chair of the Project has never seen military combat, just like many of his armchair warmonger
friends who support the war from their air-conditioned rooms. If people want war, let them
personally fight, rather than send a disproportionate number of poor people (mostly
African-American and Hispanics) to the front lines to die at 19 years of age completely naive
about the machinations of a few.

George

From: Chimbelcho at aol.com
Now that the invasion is well under way I want to see these weapons found
in Iraq. If they are not found, and it is established that Iraq did not
possess them after all, I want to see those who have lied to us about these
weapons prosecuted, impeached and convicted for crimes against humanity,
along with Saddaam Hussein, Chemical Ali and others who have murdered
people for ideological and political reasons.

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[Chimbelcho]

Post by Tim de Mello
Lots of us are waiting for the same.
But allow me to make a prediction. They will "find" WMDs and concoct a story
just like in 1991 they "found" an eye-witness nurse who horrified the
American public with tales of Kuwaiti babies being thrown out of their
incubators by inhuman Iraqi soldiers so that they could
take these incubators to Iraq.

Tim,

I share your cynicism in this matter. But I think the stakes are very high now, and the whole world is watching - not just a committee of spineless sychophants in the Congress of the United States, as was the case when that 15 year-old Nayirah gave her false testimony, and Papa Bush repeated that lie. If they do what you are predicting they would, I have every hope they would be found out, just as they were in less than a year after the incubator story broke. Then they would be guilty of mass murder and of a diabolical cover up to deceive the hearts and minds of Mericans and the rest of the world.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Mervyn Lobo]

Post by Chimbelcho

From: Chimbelcho at aol.com
We were told that the justification for this war of

invasion was that Iraq

possessed chemical and biological weapons in enough

quantities to pose a

threat to the rest of the world, including United

States.

Folks,
Does anyone else remember Sudan?
The US sent cruise missiles and bombed a factory in
the country producing medicines.

The reason they did this was because they had info
from the CIA that:
1) The factory was owned by Osama bin Laden.
2) The factory was producing chemical weapons.


Sudan let the factory grounds be inspected by:
1) Western journalist.
2) The Americans.
3) Anyone who was interested.


So far, the CIA and the Americans have tried to sweep
the matter under the carpet. Keep in mind that this is
the same CIA was not able to predict the fall of the
Soviet Union. And they were tracking the communist
there for 50 years!

What is really sad (to me) is that the western
journalist have also sweept the Sudan mater under the
carpet. I guess the matter is of no importance to the
people they cover the news for.

Mervyn


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[John J. D'Souza]

Mervyn,

The US are going to rule Iraq for quite some time via the UN or other Iraqi
nominees - we may as well accept the fact and move on to figure what it
means to the myriads of Goans for whom a job in the Gulf is one of the few
options they have for getting ahead.

If you dont like it, a quick trip to the LCBO(Toronto) - Goa Fenny is on the
shelves so I hear.
JJD'S

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mervyn Lobo" <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 6:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] War in Iraq

Post by Tariq Siddiqui
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For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
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Post by Chimbelcho

From: Chimbelcho at aol.com
We were told that the justification for this war of

invasion was that Iraq

possessed chemical and biological weapons in enough

quantities to pose a

threat to the rest of the world, including United

States.

Folks,
Does anyone else remember Sudan?
The US sent cruise missiles and bombed a factory in
the country producing medicines.
The reason they did this was because they had info
1) The factory was owned by Osama bin Laden.
2) The factory was producing chemical weapons.
1) Western journalist.
2) The Americans.
3) Anyone who was interested.
So far, the CIA and the Americans have tried to sweep
the matter under the carpet. Keep in mind that this is
the same CIA was not able to predict the fall of the
Soviet Union. And they were tracking the communist
there for 50 years!
What is really sad (to me) is that the western
journalist have also sweept the Sudan mater under the
carpet. I guess the matter is of no importance to the
people they cover the news for.
Mervyn
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[John J. D'Souza]

Mervyn,

The US are going to rule Iraq for quite some time via the UN or other Iraqi
nominees - we may as well accept the fact and move on to figure what it
means to the myriads of Goans for whom a job in the Gulf is one of the few
options they have for getting ahead.

If you dont like it, a quick trip to the LCBO(Toronto) - Goa Fenny is on the
shelves so I hear.
JJD'S

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mervyn Lobo" <mervynalobo at yahoo.ca>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 6:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] War in Iraq

Post by Tariq Siddiqui
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************

Post by Chimbelcho

From: Chimbelcho at aol.com
We were told that the justification for this war of

invasion was that Iraq

possessed chemical and biological weapons in enough

quantities to pose a

threat to the rest of the world, including United

States.

Folks,
Does anyone else remember Sudan?
The US sent cruise missiles and bombed a factory in
the country producing medicines.
The reason they did this was because they had info
1) The factory was owned by Osama bin Laden.
2) The factory was producing chemical weapons.
1) Western journalist.
2) The Americans.
3) Anyone who was interested.
So far, the CIA and the Americans have tried to sweep
the matter under the carpet. Keep in mind that this is
the same CIA was not able to predict the fall of the
Soviet Union. And they were tracking the communist
there for 50 years!
What is really sad (to me) is that the western
journalist have also sweept the Sudan mater under the
carpet. I guess the matter is of no importance to the
people they cover the news for.
Mervyn
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Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet

[Tim de Mello]

From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com> said

" . . . let them personally fight, rather than send a disproportionate
number of poor people (mostly African-American and Hispanics) to the front
lines to die . . "

==

And the British send their Gurkha troops.

Tim de Mello

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[Sunila Muzawar]

Arundhati Roy's article "Mesopotamia. Babylon. The Tigris And Euphrates" is
an interesting read. It's available at :

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20030402&fname=iraq&sid=1

We can go on forever on this war in Iraq discussion and it will serve little
purpose for those poor Iraqis who suffer. The sight of an Iraqi four year
old child bleeding to death from injuries sustained from the US bombing
after both her parents were killed in the same bombing, has caused some of
us much trauma.

Wonder what would happen in America if the world turned the war to their
soil and decided that they had to dislodge international terrorist Bush, a
dictator (since he wasn't democratically elected) in a country with WMD ?
How do you think America would handle American civilian casualties of the
kind, the Iraqis are enduring ?

I know this just a wild thought since reality cannot seem that way, but if
the world really boycotts American goods and the American dream turns sour,
this scenario couldn't be far away.....maybe not in our lifetime
though.....after all the American wealth is definitely going to go up with
all that Iraqi oil.

Sunila

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[Mervyn Lobo]

--- Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote: >
++++ How do we measure potency ?? Even after being

Post by Bosco D'Mello
hammered for the last 2 weeks, SH is still a potent
threat.

@@@@ A potent threat to who? If I remember correctly,
prior to the war, Saddam could not fly aircraft in his
own country. Iraqi's were able to watch UN inspectors
destroy Saddams weapons. The UN inspectors on the
ground could act on any info the US provided and
search any site the US wanted searched. The bottom
line is the US only 'felt' that Saddam may have
weapons and that was a good enough excuse to invade
and destroy Iraq.


++++ We know the US has bulldozed and shafted the

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Canadians
on a number of trade/economic issues - soft-wood
lumber, steel, agriculture, travel, etc.....
irrespective of GATT, WTO rulings. So much for the
hullaballoo about NAFTA !!

@@@@@ When the US goes around pushing for a trading
treaty, believe me, it has only US interests at heart.
NAFTA is a prime example. And its not only the
Canadians getting shafted. The US subsidizes its
farmers to such an extent that farmers in
Africa/China/India cannot compete or sell their
products to the US. So much for "free trade."

+++++ The rest of the world is "so knowledgable"

Post by Bosco D'Mello
about the US that they keep
pouring(investing) dollars into the US economy.

@@@@@You may not have to wait to long for that to
change. Interest groups were trying to push Congress
to pass laws allowing US Courts to be able to sieze
the assets of, and sue, Saudi citizens. The result? A
mass transfer of US$ to the Euro.

Post by Bosco D'Mello
There's
something that attracts the rest of the world to the
US, isn't it ?? US consumerism has even invaded Goa
aka Pepsi, Coke, etc....

@@@@@Be careful here, Bosco. Don't anger the Americans
least, the next thing you hear, is that they have
declared war on URAK :-)

Mervyn





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[Bosco D'Mello]

Thanks to James, Tariq, Fred and George for the links
to those articles.

Yes the Kuwaitis did lie about the incubator story -
they were fighting to get their country back. They were
rocked from their cradle-to-grave welfare lifestyles.
And they knew where Washington's interests were. They
played it right !! But it's not the only story that
spun the war-theory and drove Washington to spearhead
the liberation of Kuwait back in 1991.

We do know for a fact, the Iraqis pilfered everything
they could lay their hands on. More than incubators !!

[Tariq Siddiqui]

There are two important issues emerging in this discussion here and in the
world. The supporters of war view this in terms of Saddam Hussein and his
crimes, while the opponents of war, view these events in a more global
perspective including humanitarian and empire-building.

Let us understand that those who oppose this war, do not do so for the
sake of Saddam Hussein. We would like to get rid of him along with all
other tyrants.

-Tariq

Post by Tariq Siddiqui
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Thanks to James, Tariq, Fred and George for the links
to those articles.
Yes the Kuwaitis did lie about the incubator story -
they were fighting to get their country back. They were
rocked from their cradle-to-grave welfare lifestyles.
And they knew where Washington's interests were. They
played it right !! But it's not the only story that
spun the war-theory and drove Washington to spearhead
the liberation of Kuwait back in 1991.
We do know for a fact, the Iraqis pilfered everything
they could lay their hands on. More than incubators !!

From cables and IBM mainframes, to jewellery, currency,

etc....Everything with a value was put on a flat-bed
and driven to Iraq.
There are a number of GoaNetters living in Kuwait. Some
of them had to flee Kuwait with absolutely nothing.
Others stayed behind and weathered Desert Shield and
Desert Storm / Gulf War. Maybe some of these silent
GoaNetters from Kuwait could get to the keyboard and
tell us about life in Kuwait from 02Aug, 1990 to 26Feb,
1991 ?? If and how the Iraqis terrorized people in
Kuwait and how Goan lives were uprooted ? You don't
suppose the Iraqis were distributing food and water to
people living in Kuwait the way the US is trying to do
in Southern Iraq ??
Desert Storm was a good thing for Goa and Goans. It
restored the livelihood to thousands and thousands of
Goans who could go back to their jobs in Kuwait. The US
may have achieved their "ulterior" objectives and in
doing so, so did a multitude of Goans. God Bless the
USA !!
And talking about regimes that lie - every regime lies
- the Americans, the Kuwaitis, the Saudis....... The
Iraqis have been lying for 12 years....First they
denied their WMD plans .... and when the evidence is
placed on the table they flatly refuse to
co-operate...and when they are backed into a corner and
threantened with force - they accept. The cheat and
deceit has been going on for 12 years. That's normal !!
Nobody is going to given-up their ill-gotten gains
easily.
It was Saddam Hussein's son-in-laws, 2 of them, that
defected to Jordan in 1996, where they were de-briefed
by UNICOM (and probably others), that led the UNICOM
teams to Iraq's WMD locations. For the preceding 5
years the Iraqis rejected their existence. And when
confronted with the evidence the Iraqi leadership
turned-around and blamed the son-in-laws for running a
clandestine WMD program.
I don't see how we can give Saddam Hussein the
benefit-of-the-doubt !!
Best wishes - Bosco
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--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************

[Tariq Siddiqui]

There are two important issues emerging in this discussion here and in the
world. The supporters of war view this in terms of Saddam Hussein and his
crimes, while the opponents of war, view these events in a more global
perspective including humanitarian and empire-building.

Let us understand that those who oppose this war, do not do so for the
sake of Saddam Hussein. We would like to get rid of him along with all
other tyrants.

-Tariq

Post by Tariq Siddiqui
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
Thanks to James, Tariq, Fred and George for the links
to those articles.
Yes the Kuwaitis did lie about the incubator story -
they were fighting to get their country back. They were
rocked from their cradle-to-grave welfare lifestyles.
And they knew where Washington's interests were. They
played it right !! But it's not the only story that
spun the war-theory and drove Washington to spearhead
the liberation of Kuwait back in 1991.
We do know for a fact, the Iraqis pilfered everything
they could lay their hands on. More than incubators !!

From cables and IBM mainframes, to jewellery, currency,

etc....Everything with a value was put on a flat-bed
and driven to Iraq.
There are a number of GoaNetters living in Kuwait. Some
of them had to flee Kuwait with absolutely nothing.
Others stayed behind and weathered Desert Shield and
Desert Storm / Gulf War. Maybe some of these silent
GoaNetters from Kuwait could get to the keyboard and
tell us about life in Kuwait from 02Aug, 1990 to 26Feb,
1991 ?? If and how the Iraqis terrorized people in
Kuwait and how Goan lives were uprooted ? You don't
suppose the Iraqis were distributing food and water to
people living in Kuwait the way the US is trying to do
in Southern Iraq ??
Desert Storm was a good thing for Goa and Goans. It
restored the livelihood to thousands and thousands of
Goans who could go back to their jobs in Kuwait. The US
may have achieved their "ulterior" objectives and in
doing so, so did a multitude of Goans. God Bless the
USA !!
And talking about regimes that lie - every regime lies
- the Americans, the Kuwaitis, the Saudis....... The
Iraqis have been lying for 12 years....First they
denied their WMD plans .... and when the evidence is
placed on the table they flatly refuse to
co-operate...and when they are backed into a corner and
threantened with force - they accept. The cheat and
deceit has been going on for 12 years. That's normal !!
Nobody is going to given-up their ill-gotten gains
easily.
It was Saddam Hussein's son-in-laws, 2 of them, that
defected to Jordan in 1996, where they were de-briefed
by UNICOM (and probably others), that led the UNICOM
teams to Iraq's WMD locations. For the preceding 5
years the Iraqis rejected their existence. And when
confronted with the evidence the Iraqi leadership
turned-around and blamed the son-in-laws for running a
clandestine WMD program.
I don't see how we can give Saddam Hussein the
benefit-of-the-doubt !!
Best wishes - Bosco
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--
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tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************

[Lawrence Rodrigues]

"War continues in Iraq. They're calling it Operation Iraqi Freedom. They
were going to call it Operation Iraqi Liberation until they realized that
spells 'OIL.'" Jay Leno

"Yesterday, the president met with a group he calls the coalition of the
willing. Or, as the rest of the world calls them, Britain and Spain." Jon
Stewart

"According to the New York Times, Saddam Hussein has mined all his oil
fields, planted bombs in all his major cities, he's got bombs in the
military installations, in the airports, and he's mined all the government
buildings. There's not much left for us to do, really." Jay Leno

"Good news for Iraq. There's a 50 percent chance that President Bush will
confuse it with Iran." Craig Kilborn

"President Bush spent last night calling world leaders to support the war
with Iraq and it is sad when the most powerful man on earth is yelling, 'I
know you're there, pick up, pick up." Craig Kilborn

"President Bush spent the day calling names he couldn't pronounce in
countries he never knew existed." Jay Leno

"President Bush found out something this week. Between the countries of
Camaroone, Chile, Angola and Syria, Angola plays the best music when they
put you on hold." Craig Kilborn

"As you all know we're about to start March Madness. That's NCAA college
basketball tournament when they start with 64 teams and you whittle them
down to just one, you know kind of like our allies." Jay Leno

"CNN said that after the war, there is a plan to divide Iraq into three
parts ... regular, premium and unleaded." Jay Leno

"Turkey has voted not to allow U.S. troops into their country and Saddam
Hussein said 'You can do that?'" Jay Leno

A lot of students around the country protested the war today. The National
Youth and Student Peace Coalition sponsored an anti-war organization called
'Books Not Bombs.' President Bush said, 'Why do you want to drop books on
them?'" Jay Leno

"Experts say that if we go to war with Iraq, oil could reach as much as $80
a barrel. Of course, after the war it will be free." Jay Leno

"Saddam Hussein also challenged President Bush to a debate. The Butcher of
Baghdad vs. the Butcher of the English language." Jay Leno

"President Bush announced tonight that he believes in democracy and that
democracy can exist in Iraq. They can have a strong economy, they can have a
good health care plan, and they can have a free and fair voting. Iraq? We
can't even get this in Florida." Jay Leno

"In an interview with Dan Rather, Saddam has challenged President Bush to a
live, televised debate. I think this would be fair, since English is a
second language to both of them." Jay Leno

"President Bush has said that he does not need approval from the UN to wage
war, and I'm thinking, well, hell, he didn't need the approval of the
American voters to become president, either." David Letterman

"In a speech earlier today President Bush said if Iraq gets rid of Saddam
Hussein, he will help the Iraqi people with food, medicine, supplies,
housing, education, anything that's needed. Isn't that amazing? He finally
comes up with a domestic agenda and it's for Iraq. Maybe we could bring that
here if it works out." Jay Leno

"Secretary of State Colin Powell addressed the United Nations Security
Council, offering a compelling 90-minute presentation that not only
furthered his case but reminded the world why America is second to none in
the field of PowerPoint." Jay Leno

"You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein? Because he hates
America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret. He is French, people."
Conan O'Brien

"I read today that the president was interrupted 73 times by applause and 75
times by really big words." Jay Leno

"This week officials from France, Russia and Germany accused President Bush
of having a fondness for war. Yeah, when asked about it, a spokesman for
Bush said, 'It's a one syllable word, of course he's fond of it.'" Conan
O'Brien

[Mervyn Lobo]

--- Chimbelcho at aol.com wrote: >

Post by Chimbelcho
We were told that the justification for this war of
invasion was that Iraq possessed chemical and
biological weapons in enough quantities to pose a
threat to the rest of the world, including United
States.

Folks,
Check out this audio link below. It will give you a
clearer idea on the 'why' of the war and believe me,
the rest is real scary too.
Mervyn


http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml?display=day&todayDate=04/01/2003






______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

[Eddie]

Life & Crimes of Saddam and Uday...an article in Sunday edition of Indian
Express...

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=21491

Regards
Eddie Verdes

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bosco D'Mello" <bospam at canada.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 8:39 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Re: War in Iraq

I don't see how we can give Saddam Hussein the
benefit-of-the-doubt !!
Best wishes - Bosco

[Bosco D'Mello]

On Sun, 06 Apr 2003, "Sunila Muzawar"

On Sat, 05 Apr 2003, "Bosco - GoaNet Volunteer"

God-speed to the liberators of Iraq. God Bless the
innocent citizens of Iraq !!

@@@@ Aren't the two sentences above contradicting ?

+++ Not the way I see it. You probably see it that way
! But then again you see George Dubya as not being the
democratically elected President of the USA. The same
President who returned the Republicans to majorities in
the House and Senate in Nov 2002, who presently enjoys
overwhelming support across the political spectrum on
his handling of Iraq. Visit
www.gallup.com/poll/specialReports/pollSummaries/sr030224.asp

Ohhh these Americans !! Bloody confused lot !! Heck,
now the American public does not even care if the US
finds WMD in Iraq. tch-tch-tch !!

We're still waiting for you to enlighten us and tell us
where in the world do you think is there "real"
democracy. We'd appreciate that.

Oh and they do have a flourishing democracy in Iraq.
Parliament, Ministers, the works.....Why, President
Saddam Hussein was elected president with 100% of the
votes counted in October 2002 - not a single hanging or
pregnant chad on any ballot like those folks in
Florida. Ahem !! I must say - his was the only name on
the ballot.

If I may add - Nobody !! Nobody likes or supports the
insanity of war !! But what's gotta be done has to be
done.

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com

[Chimbelcho]

Post by Tariq Siddiqui
The supporters of war view this in terms of Saddam Hussein and his
crimes, while the opponents of war, view these events in a
more global perspective including humanitarian and empire-building.

No Tariq. The supporters of war view this in terms of:

a) Being either with them or with the terrorists.

b) Being a patriot or a traitor, if you are a Merican.

c) Being a moral Christian conservative or an immoral secular liberal communist

Cheers,

Santosh

[James Almeida]

Folks,

All you Monty Python fans will appreciate this ....

I do realize that the role of the Information Ministry is to engineer
propaganda, but ....

Everytime I see Mr. Salaf, the Iraqi information minister, issue his war
updates at his press conferences, it reminds me of that episode in one of my
favorite movies, The Search for the Holy Grail, between King Arthur and the
Black Knight!

James




_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

[Sunila Muzawar]

From: "Bosco D'Mello" <bospam at canada.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Re: War in Iraq
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 07:23:45 -0700 (PDT)
On Sun, 06 Apr 2003, "Sunila Muzawar"

On Sat, 05 Apr 2003, "Bosco - GoaNet Volunteer"

God-speed to the liberators of Iraq. God Bless the
innocent citizens of Iraq !!

@@@@ Aren't the two sentences above contradicting ?
+++ Not the way I see it. You probably see it that way
! But then again you see George Dubya as not being the
democratically elected President of the USA. The same
President who returned the Republicans to majorities in
the House and Senate in Nov 2002, who presently enjoys
overwhelming support across the political spectrum on
his handling of Iraq. Visit
www.gallup.com/poll/specialReports/pollSummaries/sr030224.asp
Ohhh these Americans !! Bloody confused lot !! Heck,
now the American public does not even care if the US
finds WMD in Iraq. tch-tch-tch !!

Got it in one. Shallow lot aren't they ??!!

We're still waiting for you to enlighten us and tell us
where in the world do you think is there "real"
democracy. We'd appreciate that.

Didn't quite get this. Was there a message on this? I may have missed it
then. Anyway, here's an answer. Despite their occassional problems,
democracy certainly thrives in the following countries :

England, India, Japan, etc.

Wouldn't say that about America. And not only because of Bush's
non-election. But freedom of speech/thought & expression is seriously
censored by the dictates of the administration cronies. Incidentally, the
news yesterday was that the Americans fired at a car in which Al Jazeera
reporters were. The car carried the Al Jazeera logo so the firing was
targetted. What does that tell you about the democratic values of Americans
?

Oh and they do have a flourishing democracy in Iraq.
Parliament, Ministers, the works.....Why, President
Saddam Hussein was elected president with 100% of the
votes counted in October 2002 - not a single hanging or
pregnant chad on any ballot like those folks in
Florida. Ahem !! I must say - his was the only name on
the ballot.

Have you gone nuts ? ;-)

If I may add - Nobody !! Nobody likes or supports the
insanity of war !! But what's gotta be done has to be
done.

Sure so that some get richer and others poorer and to hell with the many
deaths, injury, and misery which is the result. Talk about insensitivity !

Sunila

_________________________________________________________________
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[francis.newspix]

I feel Sunila goes around with blinkers on, thinking that democracy thrives
in England and India, contradicting herself with "occasional problems".
For it to be thriving it must not have problems, unless we are to disregard
the views of the few for whom it has failed, in which case you are no better
than the American administration. I am sure the thousands of Muslims and
Sikhs massacred in India would feel the same.
In talking about targeting journalists - this happens in most conflicts. As
a photojournalist I have personally covered conflicts and civil disturbances
the world over and I can tell you that your beloved India is no exception.
Restrictions are placed on movement of journalists due to fear of reporting
the truth.
I have personally suffered at the hands of the "democratic" Indian
authorities. One gruesome incident in the aftermath of Indira Gandhi's
assassination will always haunt me. The Indian government broadcast
directives via loudhailers in vehicles to stop western journalists by
whatever means, from reporting the massacres of Sikhs.
On one particular evening we were in a remote village covering the forced
evacuation of Sikhs by the Hindus. As we were unaware of the government's
incitement to commit crimes, we carried on with our coverage of the
evacuation on the belief that with the army present it was safe.
However this was not to be so, what happened next was not what one would
associate with a democracy. We were attacked by a mob of over 70, and as we
were considered foreigners the military personnel stood by and did not
intervene. With the experience of similar situations I managed to extricate
my 2 colleagues, retake control of our taxi and fortunately drive away to
safety, despite not knowing where we were heading. Unfortunately the 3-men
Indian TV crew were not so lucky. We later learnt that they did not make it
to safety, they were cornered, battered and torched.
So I would say Sunila don't blindly repeat what you have heard and aim
criticism at others.
While the majority of people watch the events unfold in the comfort and
safety of their homes, cameramen and photojournalists risks life and limbs
to carryout their assignments.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Sure so that some get richer and others poorer and to hell with the many
deaths, injury, and misery which is the result. Talk about insensitivity !

The above too applies to India .

Francis Dias
dias_yahoo.com

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Didn't quite get this. Was there a message on this? I may have missed it
then. Anyway, here's an answer. Despite their occassional problems,
England, India, Japan, etc.
Wouldn't say that about America. And not only because of Bush's
non-election. But freedom of speech/thought & expression is seriously
censored by the dictates of the administration cronies. Incidentally, the
news yesterday was that the Americans fired at a car in which Al Jazeera
reporters were. The car carried the Al Jazeera logo so the firing was
targetted. What does that tell you about the democratic values of Americans
?

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Oh and they do have a flourishing democracy in Iraq.
Parliament, Ministers, the works.....Why, President
Saddam Hussein was elected president with 100% of the
votes counted in October 2002 - not a single hanging or
pregnant chad on any ballot like those folks in
Florida. Ahem !! I must say - his was the only name on
the ballot.

Have you gone nuts ? ;-)

Post by Bosco D'Mello
If I may add - Nobody !! Nobody likes or supports the
insanity of war !! But what's gotta be done has to be
done.

Sure so that some get richer and others poorer and to hell with the many
deaths, injury, and misery which is the result. Talk about insensitivity !
Sunila

[James Almeida]

Folks,

As a follow-up to my Monty Python reference from yesterday, you will find
the following interesting: (Click on the link)
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/08/sprj.irq.sahaf.profile.reut/index.html

The most interesting quote from this piece was:

{Abdul-Aziz, a Saudi writer who would not give his last name, said: "Sahaf
is vulgar but he is a brave liar... If the rest of the Iraqi government or
army were this brave, they would inflict many more losses on U.S. and
British forces."}.

After reading this, maybe that celebrated French post modernist, Jacques
Derrida, was right when he argued that reality is but a social construction!
More power to the Black Knight! :-)

In the interests of full disclosure, I must caution you that the above link
is from an "Merican, anti-terrorist, Christian conservative" source! :-)

Best,
James




_________________________________________________________________
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[Bosco D'Mello]

Tariq,

Post by Tariq Siddiqui
There are two important issues emerging in this

discussion here and in the world. The supporters of war
view this in terms of Saddam Hussein and his
crimes, while the opponents of war, view these events
in a more global perspective including humanitarian and
empire-building.

+++ I'm afraid we cannot separate the two issues -
Saddam Hussein and Humanitarian causes go together. We
cannot separate the two issues for the sake of
convenience of discussion.

+++ What humanitarian conditions were the people of
Iraq living under SH ? Did they have it better before
the US went in and pummelled SH's regime ?? Do we know,
accept and face the truth of what SH and his Mukhabarat
and Fedayeen did to terrorise innocent Iraqis ?? Where
were we - when the innocent Iraqis were crying out to
the world - "When will this terror stop ?". Was that
asking too much then ?? Where were we when Iraqi
children suffered from malnutrition while SH and his
cronies continued to lead a life of opulence. We can be
certain that the Iraqi casualties due to the US bombing
for the last 20 days have been far less than Iraqi
casualties at the hands of the represive regime of SH.
No !! We cannot separate the two issues. Do the images
we see now on TV leave us squirming ? Fortunately then
we did not see the images of what went on in Abu Gharib
and other infamous SH locations. We may be fortunate
seeing the Americans going into Baghdad and not the
Russians - or Baghdad would have resembled Grozny !!
Let's not be Anti-War for the sake of being Anti-War !
History has showed us what inaction in such times can
lead to !!

+++ And what empire building are we referring to ? Due
to US and other Western influences alot of the
soceities in the Middle East are a lot more liberal
than their rulers would like to be. Even expatriates
who live there have it better due to Western
influences. The US is just looking out for it's own
interests. Having said that discussions about US
interests in laying their hands on Iraqi oil are also
misplaced though not totally. Iraq is a failed economic
enterprise !! Even though they possess abundance of
wealth, they owe most nations a lot of money. I don't
have the exact numbers, though $7 billion to the
Russians has been mentioned. India is owed money too.
There have been stories of Indians who worked in Iraq
and were not paid their wages. Iraq still owes many
citizens and corporations around the world billions due
to the first Gulf war. Many Goans have compensation
claims against Iraq too. Those claims are handled by
the United Nations Compensation Commission. Iraq
appears to be another Enron or Kmart on a larger
scale.....hardly an enterprise you would rush to invest
in off-the-bat !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
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[Chimbelcho]

There are two important issues emerging in this discussion here and in the world.

For the sake of balance it is nice that someone is finally articulating the jingoistic pro-war position in this predominantly anti-war forum. In fact, I am moderately sympathetic to some of the points Bosco raises in the second part of his argument. However, a major portion of Bosco's argument is unlikely to impress anybody here other than the most moral and patriotic of neoconservative Mericans. To an immoral legal alien like me his argument is full of inconsistencies and absurdities. It also lays bare that inseparable virtue of ultraconservatism - hypocrisy.

Here is how I view the specific points that he raises.

+++ I'm afraid we cannot separate the two issues -
Saddam Hussein and Humanitarian causes go together. We
cannot separate the two issues for the sake of
convenience of discussion.

American administrations absolutely can separate the two for the sake of convenience. They did it before 1990. Rumsfeld did it in 1983 and 1984.

+++ What humanitarian conditions were the people of
Iraq living under SH ? Did they have it better before
the US went in and pummelled SH's regime ?? Do we know,
accept and face the truth of what SH and his Mukhabarat
and Fedayeen did to terrorise innocent Iraqis ??

The rest of the world is thinking Pinochet, Marcos, Duvalier, Suharto, Saddaam Hussein in the 80's, etc.

Where were we when Iraqi children suffered from malnutrition while SH and his cronies >continued to lead a life of opulence?

The rest of the world is still thinking Pinochet, Marcos, Duvalier, Suharto, Saddaam Hussein in the 80's, etc.

We can be certain that the Iraqi casualties due to the US bombing for the last 20 days >have been far less than Iraqi casualties at the hands of the represive regime of SH.

Have we taken into account depleted uranium bombs?

Do the images we see now on TV leave us squirming?

Which TV should we watch? Fox News or Al-Jazeera?

Let's not be Anti-War for the sake of being Anti-War !

How absurd! We absolutely have to be anti-war for the sake of being ant-war. Peace is without a doubt an end in itself. War is a euphemism for murder.

History has showed us what inaction in such times can lead to !!

Peaceful resolution of conflicts counts as action. On the other hand, acquiescence to warmongering impulses counts as inaction.

Due to US and other Western influences alot of the soceities in the Middle East are a >lot more liberal than their rulers would like to be. Even expatriates who live there >have it better due to Western influences. The US is just looking out for it's own
interests. Having said that discussions about US interests in laying their hands on >Iraqi oil are also misplaced though not totally. Iraq is a failed economic enterprise >!!

I agree with the above assertions. Although, I do not believe these are valid reasons to invade Iraq.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Bosco D'Mello]

On Tue, 08 Apr 2003, "Sunila Muzawar"

Post by Sunila Muzawar

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Ohhh these Americans !! Bloody confused lot !! Heck,
now the American public does not even care if the US
finds WMD in Iraq. tch-tch-tch !!

Got it in one. Shallow lot aren't they ??!!

+++ No they are not !! That was sarcasm you picked up
on. I don't think there is anybody on GoaNet who shares
your sheer contempt for the Americans.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Despite their occassional problems, democracy

certainly thrives in the following countries :
England, India, Japan, etc.

+++ What do you mean by "occassional problems" ? Are
you referring to how sometimes members of the
opposition party bait some from the ruling party and
together they overthrow the ruling party and form a
government ?? That's democracy !! When the person you
voted for jumps ship and is a member of a different
political party 3 months after you voted him/her into
office. That's democracy !! Sunila.....hello !! Al Gore
has accepted George Dubya's elevation to the US
presidency, it's about time you did !! If the American
people do not appreciate G.W. policies - he will be
democratically voted out of office in under 2 years or
else we will be seeing him for another 4 years. Your
opinions are misplaced on G.W's presidency.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
But freedom of speech/thought & expression is

seriously censored by the dictates of the
administration cronies.

+++ What are you rambling about ? Any examples ??
Censors in America ?? Have you been influenced by the
US Army's psy-ops during this war ? If you can't
express yourself in the US...where can you... Panaji ?
Has anybody on GoaNet living in the US encountered
something like what Sunila is suggesting ?

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Incidentally, the news yesterday was that the

Americans fired at a car in which Al Jazeera
reporters were. The car carried the Al Jazeera logo so
the firing was targetted. What does that tell you about
the democratic values of Americans

+++ Besides the brave men and women of the armed forces
we should recognize the journalists and photographers
who risk their lives to bring us the news, mostly as it
happens. Brave men and women again !Yes Jazeera may
have been bombed by the USAF yesterday. Their offices
were flattened in Kabul too. Unfortunately there are
over 10 media-persons killed or missing in Iraq. The
Iraqi Information Minister, Mohammed "Deny" Al-Sahaf
recently banned Al-Jazeera in Baghdad - I didn't hear
you protest that. They bumped CNN out of Iraq - didn't
hear you protest that. Every news organization that
operated in Iraq for the last few decades had a Baath
party/government minder following them around Iraq.
Didn't hear you protest that....and no they were not
acting as tourist guides.

The Iraqi liberation is at hand. 1991 - Free Kuwait !
2003 - Free Iraq !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com

[Sunila Muzawar]

From: "francis.newspix" <francis.newspix at virgin.net>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Subject: Sunila-Re: [Goanet] Re: War in Iraq
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 19:04:43 +0100
I feel Sunila goes around with blinkers on, thinking that democracy thrives
in England and India, contradicting herself with "occasional problems".
For it to be thriving it must not have problems, unless we are to disregard
the views of the few for whom it has failed, in which case you are no
better
than the American administration. I am sure the thousands of Muslims and
Sikhs massacred in India would feel the same.
In talking about targeting journalists - this happens in most conflicts. As
a photojournalist I have personally covered conflicts and civil
disturbances
the world over and I can tell you that your beloved India is no exception.
Restrictions are placed on movement of journalists due to fear of reporting
the truth.
I have personally suffered at the hands of the "democratic" Indian
authorities. One gruesome incident in the aftermath of Indira Gandhi's
assassination will always haunt me. The Indian government broadcast
directives via loudhailers in vehicles to stop western journalists by
whatever means, from reporting the massacres of Sikhs.
On one particular evening we were in a remote village covering the forced
evacuation of Sikhs by the Hindus. As we were unaware of the government's
incitement to commit crimes, we carried on with our coverage of the
evacuation on the belief that with the army present it was safe.
However this was not to be so, what happened next was not what one would
associate with a democracy. We were attacked by a mob of over 70, and as we
were considered foreigners the military personnel stood by and did not
intervene. With the experience of similar situations I managed to extricate
my 2 colleagues, retake control of our taxi and fortunately drive away to
safety, despite not knowing where we were heading. Unfortunately the 3-men
Indian TV crew were not so lucky. We later learnt that they did not make it
to safety, they were cornered, battered and torched.
So I would say Sunila don't blindly repeat what you have heard and aim
criticism at others.
While the majority of people watch the events unfold in the comfort and
safety of their homes, cameramen and photojournalists risks life and limbs
to carryout their assignments.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Sure so that some get richer and others poorer and to hell with the many
deaths, injury, and misery which is the result. Talk about insensitivity

!
The above too applies to India .

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Do you realise that India is the only
nation in the world where it's majority is downtrodden and the minorities
are far better off? I am talking about the Dalits in India. Secondly, do you
realise that in the last more than two decades, more Hindus have been killed
than people of any other religion ? That again is an anomaly compared to the
rest of the world where the religion and people of the majority thrives.

India is a unique democracy. India is a country of a billion and more
people. India has more poor than any other country. India also has some of
the richest people in the world. India is more diverse in it's religions,
languages, cultures, etc. than any other country in the world. However,
despite all this democracy thrives. Not only is there freedom of expression
and freedom of speech but we also count our votes.

The only thing that would make things even better is a revamp of the
judiciary. But that is ongoing and even in Goa things have improved on this
front to some extent. They expect to catch up with the backlog in four years
time. That's something. Pune is already current with their cases and
everywhere in India this job is on. What is of course bringing down the good
numbers is UP and Bihar but I have a hope that it will not be long before
the people over there revolt and things improve.

The official machinery could have made things difficult for journalists
during the riots especially those that have the sympathy of the
administration like the anti Sikh riots had the sympathy of the ruling
Congress and the recent riots in Gujarat had the sympathy of the ruling BJP,
but that does not stop the media from doing their job. During the recent
Gujarat riots Narendra Modi was so harassed by Star News journalist Rajdeep
Sardesai that he thought Star News was out on a personal vilification
campaign.

Nothing is perfect in the world. If God wanted it like that, you and I have
to accept it. But considering the circumstances and the realities operating,
I would say India as a democracy is far superior to America. And I will
concede the same to England.

But if you cannot see that then perhaps the blinkers are on your eyes ;-)

Sunila

PS. what do you think of the Americans firing deliberately at the Al Jazira
TV crew car ?


_________________________________________________________________
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[Miguel Braganza]

Dears,
Coming from a muslim,Sunila's defence of the Indian democracy is really
heartwarming.Rightly said,Sunila,the world is not perfect.Democracy is the
next best thing.
Francis must have had a harrowing experience in 1984 anti-Sikh
riots.Thankfully it was not the Orwellian year 1984,although it could not be
worse for the many sikhs who perished.That was a shame for the nation, as
were the post-Godhra riots and the Kashmir killings.I realise that
Christians are no saints,either.Fortunately we do not have the numbers for
riots in India.A George Bush might have risen from our ranks if we had the
numbers.Religion does not change a person,Faith does.Religion is just a
social club that builds peer pressure.In today's world it has very little to
do with God and lots to do with money and power and dominance.As we say in
India, Jiski laathi,uski bhains.He who weilds the stick owns the cattle.
Miguel
----- Original Message -----

From: "francis.newspix" <francis.newspix at virgin.net>

Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Subject: Sunila-Re: [Goanet] Re: War in Iraq
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 19:04:43 +0100
I feel Sunila goes around with blinkers on, thinking that democracy thrives
in England and India, contradicting herself with "occasional problems".
For it to be thriving it must not have problems, unless we are to disregard
the views of the few for whom it has failed, in which case you are no
better
than the American administration. I am sure the thousands of Muslims and
Sikhs massacred in India would feel the same.
In talking about targeting journalists - this happens in most conflicts. As
a photojournalist I have personally covered conflicts and civil
disturbances
the world over and I can tell you that your beloved India is no exception.

While the majority of people watch the events unfold in the comfort and

safety of their homes, cameramen and photojournalists risks life and limbs
to carryout their assignments.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Sure so that some get richer and others poorer and to hell with the many
deaths, injury, and misery which is the result. Talk about

insensitivity

!
The above too applies to India .

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Do you realise that India is the only
nation in the world where it's majority is downtrodden and the minorities
are far better off?. Not only is there freedom of expression
and freedom of speech but we also count our votes.

Considering the circumstances and the realities operating,

I would say India as a democracy is far superior to America. And I will
concede the same to England.
But if you cannot see that then perhaps the blinkers are on your eyes ;-)
Sunila _______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet

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[Floriano Lobo]

Dear all,
I heartily second Miguel when he says
""Religion does not change a person,Faith does.Religion is just a

Post by Miguel Braganza
social club that builds peer pressure.In today's world it has very little to
do with God and lots to do with money and power and dominance.""

World would be a better place to live in with just GOD and NO RELIGIONS.

(Just my views)
cheers
floriano

Post by Miguel Braganza
Dears,
Coming from a muslim,Sunila's defence of the Indian democracy is really
heartwarming.Rightly said,Sunila,the world is not perfect.Democracy is the
next best thing.
Francis must have had a harrowing experience in 1984 anti-Sikh
riots.Thankfully it was not the Orwellian year 1984,although it could not be
worse for the many sikhs who perished.That was a shame for the nation, as
were the post-Godhra riots and the Kashmir killings.I realise that
Christians are no saints,either.Fortunately we do not have the numbers for
riots in India.A George Bush might have risen from our ranks if we had the
numbers.Religion does not change a person,Faith does.Religion is just a
social club that builds peer pressure.In today's world it has very little to
do with God and lots to do with money and power and dominance.As we say in
India, Jiski laathi,uski bhains.He who weilds the stick owns the cattle.
Miguel

[Floriano Lobo]

Dear all,
I heartily second Miguel when he says
""Religion does not change a person,Faith does.Religion is just a

Post by Miguel Braganza
social club that builds peer pressure.In today's world it has very little to
do with God and lots to do with money and power and dominance.""

World would be a better place to live in with just GOD and NO RELIGIONS.

(Just my views)
cheers
floriano

Post by Miguel Braganza
Dears,
Coming from a muslim,Sunila's defence of the Indian democracy is really
heartwarming.Rightly said,Sunila,the world is not perfect.Democracy is the
next best thing.
Francis must have had a harrowing experience in 1984 anti-Sikh
riots.Thankfully it was not the Orwellian year 1984,although it could not be
worse for the many sikhs who perished.That was a shame for the nation, as
were the post-Godhra riots and the Kashmir killings.I realise that
Christians are no saints,either.Fortunately we do not have the numbers for
riots in India.A George Bush might have risen from our ranks if we had the
numbers.Religion does not change a person,Faith does.Religion is just a
social club that builds peer pressure.In today's world it has very little to
do with God and lots to do with money and power and dominance.As we say in
India, Jiski laathi,uski bhains.He who weilds the stick owns the cattle.
Miguel

[Miguel Braganza]

Dears,
Coming from a muslim,Sunila's defence of the Indian democracy is really
heartwarming.Rightly said,Sunila,the world is not perfect.Democracy is the
next best thing.
Francis must have had a harrowing experience in 1984 anti-Sikh
riots.Thankfully it was not the Orwellian year 1984,although it could not be
worse for the many sikhs who perished.That was a shame for the nation, as
were the post-Godhra riots and the Kashmir killings.I realise that
Christians are no saints,either.Fortunately we do not have the numbers for
riots in India.A George Bush might have risen from our ranks if we had the
numbers.Religion does not change a person,Faith does.Religion is just a
social club that builds peer pressure.In today's world it has very little to
do with God and lots to do with money and power and dominance.As we say in
India, Jiski laathi,uski bhains.He who weilds the stick owns the cattle.
Miguel
----- Original Message -----

From: "francis.newspix" <francis.newspix at virgin.net>

Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Subject: Sunila-Re: [Goanet] Re: War in Iraq
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 19:04:43 +0100
I feel Sunila goes around with blinkers on, thinking that democracy thrives
in England and India, contradicting herself with "occasional problems".
For it to be thriving it must not have problems, unless we are to disregard
the views of the few for whom it has failed, in which case you are no
better
than the American administration. I am sure the thousands of Muslims and
Sikhs massacred in India would feel the same.
In talking about targeting journalists - this happens in most conflicts. As
a photojournalist I have personally covered conflicts and civil
disturbances
the world over and I can tell you that your beloved India is no exception.

While the majority of people watch the events unfold in the comfort and

safety of their homes, cameramen and photojournalists risks life and limbs
to carryout their assignments.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Sure so that some get richer and others poorer and to hell with the many
deaths, injury, and misery which is the result. Talk about

insensitivity

!
The above too applies to India .

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Do you realise that India is the only
nation in the world where it's majority is downtrodden and the minorities
are far better off?. Not only is there freedom of expression
and freedom of speech but we also count our votes.

Considering the circumstances and the realities operating,

I would say India as a democracy is far superior to America. And I will
concede the same to England.
But if you cannot see that then perhaps the blinkers are on your eyes ;-)
Sunila _______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Bosco D'Mello]

Mervyn,

Post by Mervyn Lobo
Bosco,
Let me try this one last time.
1) Saddam invaded Iran with US support/approval.

+++ The US supported him in the 2nd half of the war
with spy pixs, etc. It was their way of getting back at
the Mullahs for the US embassy debacle. The French sold
him, among other things, Super Etendard fighters with
Exocet missiles that he used effectively to destroy the
Kharg terminal among other Iranian assets. The
Russians, among other things, sold the Scuds that kept
landing in Tehran. The French were also helping SH
build a nuclear reactor - ofcourse only for peaceful
purposes. Probably realize why everybody is defending
their interests now with their anti-war stance.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
2) The US ambasador assured Saddam that they would

not interfer with 'regional problems,' a few days
before Saddam invaded Kuwait.
+++ That's right. I heard that too. Obviously they did
their best to befriend him. At the same time they
warned the Kuwaitis too of what was to come but the
Kuwaitis did not take them seriously.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
The gas used on the Kurds was sold to Saddam by the

US. The Americans should know, they have copies of the
receipts.

+++ The US transferred anthrax and other bacterial
agents.....anyway same deadly products. They can't be
excused. The chemical plants/weapons were built by
German companies. Not just one plant !

+++ And just before the first Gulf War a Canadian, Dr.
Bull was helping SH build a Super-Gun ! Unfortunately,
somebody (the rumour is the Israelis) got to him.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
IMHO, the reason they did not go all the way

to Bagdad the first time is because the chemical
weapons were still active.

+++ IMHO, they didn't go to Baghdad because they
thought the Arab members of the coalition could not
stomach having Americans in Baghdad. But then again the
US could have had ulterior motives to leave SH in power
as they were able to squeeze plenty of $$$ out of the
Kuwaitis, Saudis and others. More jobs back home and
sub-contracts to Canadians and others.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
Prior to March 17th, the Iraqi people were watching

the UN/US make Saddam destroy his weapons. In a few
more weeks, Saddam would become impotent. A few more
weeks, thats all it would have taken.

+++ You really believe that, eh ?? You really think he
was gonna be a good Grade 1 kid and stick his hands out
of his pocket. Something he has never done in his life.
I guess you haven't yet seen thru the complexities of
SH devious mind.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
The way I see it, the US has just made Saddam a

martyr to those Arabs on the political and religious
fringes.

+++ Once we (including the Arabs you refer to) see more
of what life really was like in SH's Iraq the sooner we
will want to forget about his existence. Can't think of
any dictator who is adored after he is gone.

It's not long now...........

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
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[George Pinto]

Post by Bosco D'Mello

Post by Bosco D'Mello
The Iraqi liberation is at hand. 1991 - Free Kuwait !

2003 - Free Iraq !!

Bosco,

I am confused. I could not find the names of the democratically elected Prime Minister or
President or Members of Parliament of "free" Kuwait. Not sure which "free" Kuwait you are
referring to.

George

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://tax.yahoo.com

[Bosco D'Mello]

On Wed, 08 Apr 2003, Santosh <Chimbelcho at aol.com> wrote:

My comments with @@@

@@@ There have been 2 arguments I have been making:

1) Support for the war to get rid of Saddam Hussein and
how misplaced/misguided anti-war opinions are.

2) The US is the world's only superpower and will do
whatever it takes to defend and further her interests
and there is not a thing anybody can do about it.

Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ I'm afraid we cannot separate the two issues -

Saddam Hussein and Humanitarian causes go together. We
cannot separate the two issues for the sake of
convenience of discussion.

Post by Bosco D'Mello

Post by Chimbelcho
American administrations absolutely can separate the
two for the sake of convenience. They did it before
1990. Rumsfeld did it in 1983 and 1984.

@@@ What did Rumsfeld do in 1983/84 - meet with SH ?
Offered SH some satellite images ? What else ? I
believe they also shipped some arms to Iran.

Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ What humanitarian conditions were the people of

Iraq living under SH ? Did they have it better before
the US went in and pummelled SH's regime ?? Do we
know, accept and face the truth of what SH and his
Mukhabarat and Fedayeen did to terrorise innocent
Iraqis ?? Where were we when Iraqi children suffered
from malnutrition while SH and his cronies continued to
lead a life of opulence?

Post by Bosco D'Mello

Post by Chimbelcho
The rest of the world is still thinking Pinochet,
Marcos, Duvalier, Suharto, Saddaam Hussein in the >>

80's, etc.

@@@ And you can add the Shah of Iran, Somoza,
Milosevice and every dictator you can name. It does not
change the fact that something had to be done to get
rid of Saddam Hussein - now ! All dictators eventually
met their fate....including Zia-ul-Haq. Are you
suggesting we leave people like SH alone to do what
they like ??

Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ We can be certain that the Iraqi casualties due

to the US bombing for the last 20 days have been far
less than Iraqi casualties at the hands of the
represive regime of SH.

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Have we taken into account depleted uranium bombs?

@@@ No we haven't and you have rightly pointed that
out. I think you are referring to uranium-tipped tank
shells. A number of people in Southern Iraq have
reported all kinds of medical issues since the 90s.
Apparently the water aquifiers are contaminated. We
have no knowledge of any independent study to ascertain
exactly what is happening there. We also know that a
lot of Iraq's chemical weapons facilities were in the
area. Alot of those weapons were used against Iran and
most of the fighting was in the South. We also know
Iraq does not exactly follow EPA guidelines in handling
chemicals.

Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ Do the images we see now on TV leave us

squirming?

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Which TV should we watch? Fox News or Al-Jazeera?

@@@ We are all free to obtain information from every
possible source so as to ascertain the truth. There are
plenty of media sources. If we believe that US networks
are biased in favour of the US, we would be naive to
think that Al-Jazeera is independent. Just like the US
networks, they too have a target audience - the Arab
world. It's not difficult to stir-up emotions on the
Arab street.

@@@ Heard this on the BBC this evening - "While the
Arab world today watched Al-Jazeera in shocked
disbelief - seeing Iraqis hugging and dancing with the
GIs and Marines, Syrian TV had a program on Islamic
Architecture".

@@@ So you decide where you get your information.

Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ Let's not be Anti-War for the sake of being

Anti-War !

Post by Bosco D'Mello
How absurd! We absolutely have to be anti-war for the
sake of being ant-war. Peace is without a doubt an
end in itself. War is a euphemism for murder.

@@@ Why is it absurb ? I'm not saying to go to war at
all times. I am in favour of this war - to get rid of
SH. I can see no rationale in your general anti-war
stance.

Post by Bosco D'Mello

Post by Chimbelcho
History has showed us what inaction in such times

can lead to !!

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Peaceful resolution of conflicts counts as action. On
the other hand, acquiescence to warmongering impulses
counts as inaction.

@@@ Maybe you can tell us when was the last time there
was a peaceful resolution to a conflict. My memory
fails me. We as human beings have almost always
resorted to violence to keep the peace. If there was no
threat of war - we would have no peace.

If we resorted to peaceful resolutions and negotiations
- In 1990, Saddam Hussein may have crossed over into
Saudi Arabia, the UAE and other oil producing countries
of the region. He would have control of OPEC and oil
may have cost $100/- a barrel. The world's economies
would have been devastated and we would still be
complaining that the US did not do anything to deal
with him.

And like some Americans say - the French people could
have been speaking German, if we resorted to peaceful
resolutions.

Peace without war - is only Utopia !

Saddam Hussein GONE !! Jubilant Iraqis finally
expressing themselves. Don't miss the news today !
People, specifically Goans, in Kuwait are relieved. The
tense lives they've led for the last 23 years - first
with bomb explosions, assasination attempts and then an
Iraqi invasion followed by liberation. Still Iraqi
threats persisted due to the missiles....But now Saddam
Hussein is history....this is the real world !!

Welcome back !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com

[Bosco D'Mello]

On Sun, 09 Apr 2003, George Pinto

Post by Bosco D'Mello
The Iraqi liberation is at hand. 1991 - Free Kuwait

! 2003 - Free Iraq !!

Bosco,

I am confused. I could not find the names of the
democratically elected Prime Minister or
President or Members of Parliament of "free" Kuwait.
Not sure which "free" Kuwait you are
referring to.

- George

George,

First of all, I was alluding to the Free Kuwait
movement of 1990. Free as in Freedom from SH's Iraq. I
don't know how much you followed the first Gulf War.
The movement I believe was launched in London, England
and then became an international movement with rallies
in major cities, etc. I hope that clears the confusion.
Some websites:

www.freeq8.com/freekuwait.htm
www.archcarving.com/National%20Archives/national_archives.htm
http://d4maths.lowtech.org/mirage/pics4.htm

The current debate has been about the Iraq war v/s
Anti-war. I'm not sure if you are interested in
continuing the debate or starting a new thread. If you
like detail information on Kuwait's political structure
visit :

www.kuwaitmission.com
www.kuwaitmission.com/facts.html
www.alommah.gov.kw
www.kuwaitonline.com/aboutkw/aboutkw.htm

I'm not sure you will find all the names you are
looking for. Briefly I can tell you that the Prime
Minister is not elected but nominated by the ruler also
known as the Emir. They have no president. Members of
Parliament are elected by the people. However women and
members of the armed services cannot participate in the
electoral process.

If I may add Kuwait has a sizable Goan population. Some
estimates of 20,000. Over 200,000 Indians. Don't know
how accurate the numbers are.

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
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[Mervyn Lobo]

--- Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote: >

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Once we (including the Arabs you refer to) see
more of what life really was like in SH's Iraq the >

sooner we will want to forget about his existence. >
Can't think of any dictator who is adored after he >
is gone.

Bosco,
I can think of one.
His name is Adolf Hitler :-)
Mervyn

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

[Chimbelcho]

I have no interest in continuing this argument. This is my last post on this thread. This war is almost over, and I want to go home.

However, I want to see those weapons of mass destruction found, and Saddaam and his cronies tried for their crimes. If the weapons are not found, I want those responsible for invading Iraq and killing its people, prosecuted under international law. I am happy that one tyrannical regime has come to an end, but unhappy that a lot of people had to die to achieve that end. I refuse to accept that a war of aggression is a just means to end tyranny in this world.

I am also apprehensive about the future - fearful that the warmongers might have Syria and Iran next on their agenda. Arguments can be twisted, lies can be told, evidence fabricated, and bogey men erected right in front of our eyes by people who wield superpower, and who are driven by a self-righteous ideology and a messianic zeal, to rationalize their actions, in a manner similar to what we have just witnessed.

It is wise for the powerless to always remain skeptical of those in power.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Tariq Siddiqui]

Post by Chimbelcho
I am also apprehensive about the future - fearful that the warmongers
might have Syria and Iran next on their agenda. Arguments can be twisted,
lies can be told, evidence fabricated, and bogey men erected right in
front of our eyes by people who wield superpower, and who are driven by a
self-righteous ideology and a messianic zeal, to rationalize their
actions, in a manner similar to what we have just witnessed.

Hawks Set Sights on Iran, Syria as Baghdad Falls
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030410/pl_nm/iraq_usa_hawks_dc_3

US lawmakers target Syria
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030410/pl_afp/iraq_war_us_syria_030410184008

Wolfowitz, Perle want regime change in Chimbel
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030410/pl_afp/iraq_war_us_chimbel_030410184008


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************

[Tariq Siddiqui]

Post by Chimbelcho
I am also apprehensive about the future - fearful that the warmongers
might have Syria and Iran next on their agenda. Arguments can be twisted,
lies can be told, evidence fabricated, and bogey men erected right in
front of our eyes by people who wield superpower, and who are driven by a
self-righteous ideology and a messianic zeal, to rationalize their
actions, in a manner similar to what we have just witnessed.

Hawks Set Sights on Iran, Syria as Baghdad Falls
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030410/pl_nm/iraq_usa_hawks_dc_3

US lawmakers target Syria
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030410/pl_afp/iraq_war_us_syria_030410184008

Wolfowitz, Perle want regime change in Chimbel
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030410/pl_afp/iraq_war_us_chimbel_030410184008


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************

[Sunila Muzawar]

From: "Bosco D'Mello" <bospam at canada.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Re: War in Iraq
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 19:39:22 -0700 (PDT)
On Tue, 08 Apr 2003, "Sunila Muzawar"

Post by Sunila Muzawar

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Ohhh these Americans !! Bloody confused lot !! Heck,
now the American public does not even care if the US
finds WMD in Iraq. tch-tch-tch !!

Got it in one. Shallow lot aren't they ??!!

+++ No they are not !! That was sarcasm you picked up
on. I don't think there is anybody on GoaNet who shares
your sheer contempt for the Americans.

It is not sheer contempt I feel for the Americans. It is sheer incredibility
that a nation of educated people with democratic leanings can be so
gullible.

Are
you referring to how sometimes members of the
opposition party bait some from the ruling party and
together they overthrow the ruling party and form a
government ?? That's democracy !! When the person you
voted for jumps ship and is a member of a different
political party 3 months after you voted him/her into
office. That's democracy !!

Thanks for the education. It was unnecessary though because that's what
happens in India and I had already agreed that India was a relatively good
example of democracy.

Sunila.....hello !! Al Gore
has accepted George Dubya's elevation to the US
presidency, it's about time you did !! If the American
people do not appreciate G.W. policies - he will be
democratically voted out of office in under 2 years or
else we will be seeing him for another 4 years. Your
opinions are misplaced on G.W's presidency.

Sure ! You can keep your blinders on and join the rest of the gullible folks
there.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
But freedom of speech/thought & expression is

seriously censored by the dictates of the
administration cronies.
+++ What are you rambling about ? Any examples ??
Censors in America ?? Have you been influenced by the
US Army's psy-ops during this war ? If you can't
express yourself in the US...where can you... Panaji ?
Has anybody on GoaNet living in the US encountered
something like what Sunila is suggesting ?

The minute someone has publicly talked against the war or against USA, they
have been removed from the media. Arnett, Susan Sarandon, Dixie Chicks, Phil
Donahue are good examples. If that is not censorship by the dictates of the
administration cronies what is ?

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Incidentally, the news yesterday was that the

Americans fired at a car in which Al Jazeera
reporters were. The car carried the Al Jazeera logo so
the firing was targetted. What does that tell you about
the democratic values of Americans
+++ Besides the brave men and women of the armed forces
we should recognize the journalists and photographers
who risk their lives to bring us the news, mostly as it
happens. Brave men and women again !Yes Jazeera may
have been bombed by the USAF yesterday. Their offices
were flattened in Kabul too. Unfortunately there are
over 10 media-persons killed or missing in Iraq.

Yes I agree that it is unfortunate. I also think it is sad. But the deadly
firing at the Al Jazeera car was more than that. It was deliberate. And the
one of the Western reporters actually saw it happen and recounted it on
television.....I think it was Sky news but am not sure.

The
Iraqi Information Minister, Mohammed "Deny" Al-Sahaf
recently banned Al-Jazeera in Baghdad - I didn't hear
you protest that.

Incidentally, they changed their minds later about banning Al Jazeera. You
keep comparing the Americans with the Iraqi administration. None of us have
any doubt that the Iraqi administration was bad. In fact, that Al Sahaf was
a complete joker just telling incredible lies with a straight face and
exposing how poor the administration actually was. What I have a problem
with is the American double facedness. Why can't you face up to that ?

The Iraqi liberation is at hand. 1991 - Free Kuwait !
2003 - Free Iraq !!

What's free about Kuwait ? The expat maids are treated as badly as they were
before and the Kuwaitis are subject to their sheikhs as always. Iraq is now
a looter's paradise. Is that your idea of freedom ?

Sunila



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[Bosco D'Mello]

Post by Chimbelcho
I have no interest in continuing this argument. This

is my last post on this thread. This war is almost
over, and I want to go home.

+++ Yes the war is almost over and the anti-war lobby
is in damage control mode. From Hollywood to Cairo,
from Berlin to Moscow, Tim-buk-three and beyond. And
now we hear it from the horse's mouth, Prez Chirac :

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030410/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_france_chirac_030410103216

What a hypocrite !!! I guess now he realizes how many
$$$$ the French people are gonna lose....or should I
say Euros ?

The Arabs are now saying they were supporting the Iraqi
people all along. What a joke.

The Iraqi people are speaking - listen carefully !!

Post by Chimbelcho
I am happy that one tyrannical regime has come to an

end, but unhappy that a lot of people had to die to
achieve that end.

+++ I share your thoughts. Millions died to get rid of
Hitler. They did not die in vain. Many thousand Iraqis
died before this war. And those living had given up for
dead. The face of helpless 11-year old Ali Abbas will
live with me for the rest of my life. At the same time
I know who was really responsible for his condition.

Post by Chimbelcho
I am also apprehensive about the future - fearful

that the warmongers might have Syria and Iran next on
their agenda. Arguments can be twisted, lies can be
told, evidence fabricated, and bogey men erected right
in front of our eyes by people who wield superpower,
and who are driven by a self-righteous ideology and a
messianic zeal, to rationalize their actions, in a
manner similar to what we have just witnessed.

+++ The silence from Syria is deafening !! Lot of
accusations have been thrown at them. Then there must
be some truth to them ??

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030410/pl_nm/iraq_usa_syria_dc&cid=615&ncid=1473

+++ Ideology, is what has brought us all as a human
race to where we are today. Ideology is not a monopoly
of the self-righteous. And the messianic zeal mantra
applies to Hindu fundamentalists, Islamic
fundamentalists and Christian right-wingers alike, who
have all sought to rationalize their actions.

Post by Chimbelcho
It is wise for the powerless to always remain

skeptical of those in power.

+++ But informed of all the facts.

We cannot predict the future and what is in store for
the Iraqi people. But now that they've tasted freedom -
everything is possible. We do know they are and will be
better off than they have ever been in a long, long
time !!

Best wishes - Bosco

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[Bosco D'Mello]

On Wed, 10, 08 Apr 2003, "Sunila Muzawar"

Post by Sunila Muzawar
The minute someone has publicly talked against the

war or against USA, they have been removed from the
media. Arnett, Susan Sarandon, Dixie Chicks, Phil
Donahue are good examples. If that is not censorship by
the dictates of the administration cronies what is ?

+++ The Dixie Chicks......you gotta be kidding me. All
the Dixie Chicks wanted was to sell more records and
concert tickets. They are nowhere close to an iconic
stature of John Lennon to be called anti-war. Now they
too are in damage control mode. Calling it a joke. Read
:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/launch/20030403/en_launch/212895

Peter Arnett - the respected news reporter. After
reporting on so many wars, thought he had graduated to
a general, albeit an armchair one !!

Susan Sarandon - Has been an "off-the-road" H'wood
personality all her life. A pacifist ! If I may say so.
I don't know where/when she was censored.

Phil Donahue - Is he out of retirement ? I went back to
George Pinto's link :

www.fair.org/press-releases/iraq-censorship.html

It appears that most "censorship" has occured due to
economic or administrative reasons. But that too is
disputable.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Yes I agree that it is unfortunate. I also think it

is sad. But the deadly firing at the Al Jazeera car was
more than that. It was deliberate. And the
one of the Western reporters actually saw it happen and
recounted it on television.....I think it was Sky news
but am not sure.

+++ I agree with you that it was unfortunate. I've
already highlighted the fact that over 10
journos/photographers are missing in Iraq and last
night we learned that 2 doctors from Doctors without
Borders are missing in Baghdad. But I doubt we can be
certain it was deliberate. Iraq is a warzone and nobody
is safe - soldier, civilian, journo.....it's
life-or-death ! I certainly hope Al-Jazeera continues
to broadcast it's uncut images from Iraq to the Arab
world. The alarm has gone off - it's time to wake-up !

Post by Sunila Muzawar
You keep comparing the Americans with the Iraqi

administration.

+++ I doubt I have done that at anytime. We can't
compare Apples and peanuts !

Post by Sunila Muzawar
In fact, that Al Sahaf was a complete joker just

telling incredible lies with a straight face

+++ He probably would have a shot in Hollywood. Maybe
guest on SNL or if they bring Sienfeld back, he could
be Kramer's room-mate.

His bravado was keeping in line with the Arab Street.
Now the Arab Street knows what the Iraqi people really
wanted all along.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030410/wl_nm/iraq_arabs_dc_5

Post by Sunila Muzawar
What I have a problem with is the American double

facedness. Why can't you face up to that ?

+++ Double facedness or Double Standards. You're
reminding me of that Travolta/Cage movie. Let me see
now - The French do it, the Germans, the Russians, the
Pakis, oh-oh....the Indians do it too and my favourite
Chief Minister of Goa does it. Aw Shucks !! Everybody
seems to be doing it.

Did I hear somebody mention "blinders" ?? They
certainly seem to be in vogue somewhere !

Post by Sunila Muzawar
What's free about Kuwait ? The expat maids are

treated as badly as they were before

+++ The maids are treated just as well/poorly as maids
in Dubai, Muscat, Doha, Jeddah, etc....I want to go on
record here to compliment the folks from the Goa
Welfare Soceity and other Goan organizations in Kuwait
who have stepped forward time and again to help out a
Goan/Indian maids who have run into trouble with their
employers, the law or medical reasons. You are the
heroes at those unfortunate times.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
and the Kuwaitis are subject to their sheikhs as

always.

+++ Just as much as the Makhtoums, Bin-Thanis or the
House of Saud. Kuwait however was the first country to
have an elected parliament, the powers of which are
debatable.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Iraq is now a looter's paradise. Is that your idea of

freedom ?

+++ Sweet Iraqi Freedom ! With a deep breath - smells
fresh !!! Guess some would like to deny that to the
Iraqi people.

We all are a part of history - yet again !!

Best wishes - Bosco

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[Mervyn Lobo]

--- Chimbelcho at aol.com wrote: >

Post by Chimbelcho
However, I want to see those weapons of mass
destruction found, and Saddaam and his cronies tried
for their crimes. If the weapons are not found, I
want those responsible for invading Iraq and killing
its people, prosecuted under international law.

A reader of The Toronto Star put it aptly today. He
accused G. Bush and gang of being a "weapon of mass
deception."
Mervyn




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[Sunila Muzawar]

From: "Bosco D'Mello" <bospam at canada.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Re: War in Iraq
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:34:14 -0700 (PDT)
On Wed, 10, 08 Apr 2003, "Sunila Muzawar"

Post by Sunila Muzawar
The minute someone has publicly talked against the

war or against USA, they have been removed from the
media. Arnett, Susan Sarandon, Dixie Chicks, Phil
Donahue are good examples. If that is not censorship by
the dictates of the administration cronies what is ?
+++ The Dixie Chicks......you gotta be kidding me. All
the Dixie Chicks wanted was to sell more records and
concert tickets. They are nowhere close to an iconic
stature of John Lennon to be called anti-war. Now they
too are in damage control mode. Calling it a joke. Read
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/launch/20030403/en_launch/212895

That's the saddest thing isn't it. To be intimidated into calling their
truly expressed thoughts a joke ?

Peter Arnett - the respected news reporter. After
reporting on so many wars, thought he had graduated to
a general, albeit an armchair one !!

Right, just like the Fox news guys are nothing but cowboys ! Your opinion of
journalism is very interesting to note.

Susan Sarandon - Has been an "off-the-road" H'wood
personality all her life. A pacifist ! If I may say so.
I don't know where/when she was censored.

She was kept out of some charity dinner where she was originally scheduled
to give a talk.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
You keep comparing the Americans with the Iraqi

administration.
+++ I doubt I have done that at anytime. We can't
compare Apples and peanuts !

Yes, Americans are noted for their peanut sized brains which have one track
agressive intent. ;-)

Post by Sunila Muzawar
In fact, that Al Sahaf was a complete joker just

telling incredible lies with a straight face
+++ He probably would have a shot in Hollywood. Maybe
guest on SNL or if they bring Sienfeld back, he could
be Kramer's room-mate.
His bravado was keeping in line with the Arab Street.
Now the Arab Street knows what the Iraqi people really
wanted all along.

Does anybody know that for sure ? Do you think any self respecting person
will want to be "liberated" to an era of looting, plunder and chaos by
foreigners that have deliberately kept them poor and miserable for the last
decade ?

Post by Sunila Muzawar
What's free about Kuwait ? The expat maids are

treated as badly as they were before
+++ The maids are treated just as well/poorly as maids
in Dubai, Muscat, Doha, Jeddah, etc

But I never said Dubai, Muscat, Doha, Jeddah were free. You said Kuwait was
free though. Incidentally, the only other country where maid are treated
worse than in Kuwait is Saudi Arabia.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
and the Kuwaitis are subject to their sheikhs as

always.
+++ Just as much as the Makhtoums, Bin-Thanis or the
House of Saud. Kuwait however was the first country to
have an elected parliament, the powers of which are
debatable.

Well, your comment on the dubious democracy in Kuwait is accepted. However,
I don't understand why you would mention the Makhtoums, etc. After all,
nobody said Dubai or the other Gulf countries were different in any way.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Iraq is now a looter's paradise. Is that your idea of

freedom ?
+++ Sweet Iraqi Freedom ! With a deep breath - smells
fresh !!! Guess some would like to deny that to the
Iraqi people.

That says it all for your idea of freedom. May you rest in bliss so that the
rest of us can be spared your wonderfully insensitive angle on the war in
Iraq and the fate of the Iraqis.
Sunila

P.S. Nothing smells fresh in Iraq....not after all that bombing !


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[Bosco D'Mello]

On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:41:01 -0400, "Sunila Muzawar"

Post by Sunila Muzawar
That's the saddest thing isn't it. To be intimidated
into calling their truly expressed thoughts a joke ?

+++ What are you saying ?? You already own a Dixie
Chicks album ?? What's sad ? Natalie Maines herself is
saying that her/their comment was meant to be a joke.
Why is difficult for you to believe her ??

+++ Celebrities are celebrities - they say/do crazy
things to get our attention and in turn we watch more
of their movies and buy more of their records. They
don't have much credibility in the US unless you are a
member of the paparazzi !!

Post by Sunila Muzawar

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Peter Arnett - the respected news reporter. After
reporting on so many wars, thought he had graduated

to a general, albeit an armchair one !!

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Right, just like the Fox news guys are nothing but
cowboys ! Your opinion of
journalism is very interesting to note.

+++ Excuse me !! Did he have to go on Iraqi TV to be
journalistic even when another US Network was footing
his bills ?

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Yes, Americans are noted for their peanut sized

brains which have one track agressive intent. ;-)

+++ The same peanut brain that thinks big !! Tariq's
email a couple of day's ago re the NYT article stating
water was the main reason for the war is definitely an
eye-opener for the peanut-sized brain. Thanks for the
insight Tariq and I mean that sincerely.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Do you think any self respecting person will want to

be "liberated" to an era of looting, plunder and chaos
by foreigners that have deliberately kept them poor and
miserable for the last decade ?

+++ Maybe somebody else on this forum can tell us what
happened immediately after Operation Vijay. I don't
know - but I'm guessing there was a little of looting,
plunder, etc.... on a smaller scale since the
population was less compared to Iraq.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
But I never said Dubai, Muscat, Doha, Jeddah were

free.

+++ I know you didn't. I did !! Just to keep you in
touch with reality. They are all the same. Same barrel
of oil - different oilfield !!

Post by Sunila Muzawar
You said Kuwait was free though.

+++ Now you are twisting my words. I said "1991 - Free
Kuwait, 2003 - Free Iraq". I hope you get the
difference.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Incidentally, the only other country where maid are

treated worse than in Kuwait is Saudi Arabia.

+++ It's good to know somebody is tracking the
Bullyboard Top 10 !! There's nothing I can do about it.

Post by Sunila Muzawar

Post by Bosco D'Mello

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Iraq is now a looter's paradise. Is that your

idea of freedom ?

+++ Your missing the point, Sunila. 3 generations of
Iraqis have not had an opportunity to express
themselves. I believe what we are seeing are
frustrations of a Rich Country with a Poor Populace.
Similar things happened in Kuwait during the occupation
and after the liberation. I've seen it in Mumbai too -
when there is no law-and-order.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
That says it all for your idea of freedom. May you

rest in bliss so that the rest of us can be spared your
wonderfully insensitive angle on the war in
Iraq and the fate of the Iraqis.

+++ Oh-oh, you're sending me packing !! As I said in my
last post, neither you or I can look into the future of
the Iraqi people. We have no crystal ball ! We can
speculate all we like one way or the other but we don't
know. One thing is certain - their lives will be better
than what it was for the last 3 decades. It's your
stand that appears insensitive to the Iraqi people. You
still think leaving SH in power was the better
alternative just because you are anti-war or is it
anti-US or is it anti-Bush or is it anti-Iraqi people !!

Best wishes - Bosco

PS. Visit www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com He
did not even make the US deck-of-cards. What a
nincompoop !!

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[Bosco D'Mello]

In reply to various messages. My comments with +++

I am so glad that today India possesses a nuclear

deterrent.

+++ And what do you think India can do with the nuclear
deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike (like the
Americans with(out) UN sanction) Pakistan for fomenting
terrorism in Kashmir ??

+++ And like Tariq rightly pointed out - the economic
weapon is just as powerful as the military one !!

We are now in April 2003. Nearly a year since

Afghanistan was "liberated". However, the promises of
elections and democracy are as faint as ever. After
all, why bother with that, when you have your lackey in
power there right?

+++ For a country ravaged by war and 3 generations that
have only known war, it is and will be difficult to
organize those "elections". Karzai's safety is only
guaranteed within Kabul. Surely Tariq you are not
suggesting that things would have been better if the
Taliban was still in power ?

I will try and answer the last two.

1) My solution to Iraq would be to get the Iraqi Govt
to destroy any/all weapons of mass destruction.
2) I would deal with them thru the U.N. The U.N. had
inspectors in the Iraq. The Iraqi govt was destroying
the weapons that were deemed illegal by the UN.

+++ I suppose that's what the world (UN) has been
telling the Iraqi government for the last 12 years. How
many resolutions did it take for Iraq to realize that
those weapons that they recently destroyed were illegal
as per the UN. Why did they build these weapons
post-Gulf War even though UN resolutions had
pre-emptively declared them illegal. Something to think
about. We wish things were really simple, right ??

+++ Even though UN sanctions were in place, Iraq
successfully tried to re-create their arsenal post-Gulf
War. Furthermore they created new weapons in the last
12 years. At the same time blaming the US and other
countries for various illnesses faced by Iraqi people
due to the sanctions. Saddam continued to build palace
after palace while Iraqi children faced malnutrition
and the Iraqi people faced hunger. Valuable resources
were diverted for maintaining his grip on power. Don't
ignore these facts !!

No WMD which Iraq may or may not have would have

reached America.

+++ Why the may or may not have ?? Are you convinced
they exist or not ??

Sure, so that gives the licence to the USA to kill

some more ?

+++ No it does not !! But then unfortunately innocent
people have always died in wars of independence (East
Timor, etc) and liberation (Kosovo, Afghanistan, etc).
Wars are never predictable - with or without "shock and
awe". But despots like Saddam Hussein have to go !

If one really needed to get rid of Saddam a single

snipper could have done the job.

+++ I guess we've all watched too many movies. I don't
know if you are aware but Saddam Hussein has not made a
public appearance in over 2 years. He has made numerous
appearances on Iraqi TV only. I wonder when he last
made a trip abroad ??

Who is responsible for all the diseases that are

going to set in even fifty years later ?

+++ It should go down in history that Saddam Hussein
was responsible for all the ills that the Iraqi people
had to endure for the last 30+ years and for
generations to come.

And why all this? Because they want the oil.

+++ Yes, it probably is all about oil....and will be
for a long time to come. The American way of life is
threatened by steep oil prices.....I don't think the
GoaNetters in the US and Canada are happy with the
price of gas/petrol at the pump. Just the rising price
of gas/petrol triggers a domino effect on the economy.
Look at inflation numbers since January 2003. The spurt
in inflation was mostly attributed to the spike of
gas/petrol prices. So the US is defending their
interests. And by doing so are also doing the dirty
work for the rest of the world.

And tell me what kind of a democracy in Iraq can a

fake democracy like the USA create ?

+++ So if the US is a fake democracy, please tell us
where in the world can we find 'real' democracy.

+++ Most of the anti-American sentiments expressed here
are by US-based netters. That's the wonderful thing
about the US - civil liberty ! Even a serving
President's private life was made public with lurid
details. Can this happen in most countries ??

This may not be the last war the US fights in the
Middle-East. They will be back, if their interests are
threatened.....you can only do this and more, when you
are the only SUPER-POWER !!

- Bosco

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[Tim de Mello]

From: "Bosco D'Mello" <bospam at canada.com>
+++ And what do you think India can do with the nuclear
deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike (like the
Americans with(out) UN sanction) Pakistan for fomenting
terrorism in Kashmir ??

=======

"nuclear deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike . . "

I think this is called an Oxymoron.

Tim de Mello
============

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[Mervyn Lobo]

Post by Bosco D'Mello
I suppose that's what the world (UN) has been
telling the Iraqi government for the last 12 years.
How
many resolutions did it take for Iraq to realize
that those weapons that they recently destroyed were
illegal
as per the UN. Why did they build these weapons
post-Gulf War even though UN resolutions had
pre-emptively declared them illegal. Something to
think about. We wish things were really simple,

right ??


Bosco,
According to Canadian press reports, just prior to the
start of the US attack, Iraq was destroying the
weapons deemed illegal by the UN.

The US was forcing Saddam Hussien into becoming an
impotent dictator.

However, the US was not satisfied with the situation.
Some people in the White House wanted war. War at any
cost.

And now the same team is warning Iran, Syria, Korea,
"Hey buddies, you are next."

Mervyn








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[Eddie]

--- Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote:
I suppose that's what the world (UN) has been

Post by Bosco D'Mello
telling the Iraqi government for the last 12 years.
How
many resolutions did it take for Iraq to realize
that those weapons that they recently destroyed were
illegal
as per the UN. Why did they build these weapons
post-Gulf War even though UN resolutions had
pre-emptively declared them illegal. Something to
think about. We wish things were really simple,

right ??

As someone rightly said: UN is good in peace keeping not peace making!

Eddie Verdes

[James Almeida]

Folks,

I'd recommend that you may find the following worth reading:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/05/arts/05WARB.html?ex=1050537942&ei=1&en=7fec98f7a73f7185

(you have to register at the NY Times website - it's FREE!).


My sense is that the combatants on either side of the war debated on GN
would find that this provides a quick summary of the intellectual basis used
for this action. It's naive to rely on media caricatures (of 43, or any
other politician - regardless what David Frum opines!) to form one's
assessment of their intellectual capacities.

Speaking about the intellectual basis for this war, some of you may also
find it interesting to read a piece written by Paul Berman in the March 23
issue of the NY Times magazine (I've a hard copy, but I presume a soft copy
could be had from the Times website for a small fee) on the "Al Qaeda
philosopher", Sayyid Qutb.

Happy reading (don't forget that the US springs forward this weekend!)
James




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[Bosco D'Mello]

I am so glad that today India possesses a nuclear

deterrent.

+++ And what do you think India can do with the

nuclear deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike (like
the Americans with(out) UN sanction) Pakistan for
fomenting terrorism in Kashmir ??

"nuclear deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike . . "
I think this is called an Oxymoron.

+++ So why do we have to be glad that India has a
nuclear deterrent. All those efforts in the nuclear
weapons field could have instead been utilized in the
nuclear power generation field. But then again....how
many chest-thumping Indians would that have produced ?

*********************

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[Chimbelcho]

My sense is that the combatants on either side of the war debated on GN would find >that this provides a quick summary of the intellectual basis used for this action.

We were told that the justification for this war of invasion was that Iraq possessed chemical and biological weapons in enough quantities to pose a threat to the rest of the world, including United States.

Now that the invasion is well under way I want to see these weapons found in Iraq. If they are not found, and it is established that Iraq did not possess them after all, I want to see those who have lied to us about these weapons prosecuted, impeached and convicted for crimes against humanity, along with Saddaam Hussein, Chemical Ali and others who have murdered people for ideological and political reasons.

I am waiting to see what happens, and my faith in democracy, justice and the rule of law rests heavily on the final outcome.

Cheers,

Samtosh

[Bosco D'Mello]

Mervyn,

Post by Mervyn Lobo
According to Canadian press reports, just prior to

the start of the US attack, Iraq was destroying the
weapons deemed illegal by the UN.

+++ Yes, but why did they create/build these weapons in
the first place ?? They knew the contents of the
resolutions that brought about an end of Gulf War I.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
The US was forcing Saddam Hussien into becoming an
impotent dictator.

+++ How do we measure potency ?? Even after being
hammered for the last 2 weeks, SH is still a potent
threat. Look at the way the people in the South are
reacting now that they know SH has lost control over
them. The Americans offered SH a chance to play along
in their interests. But he refused !! Less than 2 years
after a draining 8-year war with Iran, SH thought it
prudent to invade tiny Kuwait and even harboured plans
of continuing into the eastern Saudi oilfields.

Talking of potent dictators we have in our
neighbourhood Musharraf with his finger on the nuclear
trigger. His turn will come too (if he threatens US
economic interests) and India will fall over backwards
to assist the US in "regime-change". But for now
Musharraf serves US economic interests.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
However, the US was not satisfied with the situation.
Some people in the White House wanted war. War at any
cost.

+++ That's right....The point I am trying to make is
that the US feels itself threatened economically and is
taking military action to further and defend it's
economic interests and way of life. There is nothing a
France, a Germany, a Russia or anybody else can do
about it because the US is the only superpower in the
world today - whether we like it or not !!

We know the US has bulldozed and shafted the Canadians
on a number of trade/economic issues - soft-wood
lumber, steel, agriculture, travel, etc.....
irrespective of GATT, WTO rulings. So much for the
hullaballoo about NAFTA !!

And for those messages/views among GoaNetters about
ignorance among American citizens - it works fine for
the US as far as US economic interests are concerned.
Americans know less about the world, travel less and
spend most of their dollars in America. The rest of the
world is "so knowledgable" about the US that they keep
pouring(investing) dollars into the US economy. There's
something that attracts the rest of the world to the
US, isn't it ?? US consumerism has even invaded Goa aka
Pepsi, Coke, etc....

Who wins ??

And ofcourse Iraqi oil and others will pay for this
war....you don't expect the US taxpayer to foot this
bill and lose all those tax-cuts Prez Bush has promised
them.

Best wishes - Bosco

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[Tim de Mello]

From: Chimbelcho at aol.com
We were told that the justification for this war of invasion was that Iraq
possessed chemical and biological weapons in enough quantities to pose a
threat to the rest of the world, including United States.
Now that the invasion is well under way I want to see these weapons found
in Iraq. If they are not found, and it is established that Iraq did not
possess them after all, I want to see those who have lied to us about these
weapons prosecuted, impeached and convicted for crimes against humanity,
along with Saddaam Hussein, Chemical Ali and others who have murdered
people for ideological and political reasons.
I am waiting to see what happens, and my faith in democracy, justice and
the rule of law rests heavily on the final outcome.

========

Lots of us are waiting for the same.
But allow me to make a prediction. They will "find" WMDs and concoct a story
just like in 1991 they "found" an eye-witness nurse who horrified the
American public with tales of Kuwaiti babies being thrown out of their
incubators by inhuman Iraqi soldiers so that they could take these
incubators to Iraq. That is how the administration manipulated and obtained
public opinion approval. This, in my mind, was the seminal event that
launched the 1991 war. Turns out that this eye witness was the niece of the
Kuwaiti ambassador and was not in Kuwait at all.

Very easy to do when you possess WMDs yourself.

Tim de Mello
============

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[George Pinto]

Santosh,

You underestimate the ability of the CIA and the USA war mafia to plant WMD and then "discover"
them. DOn't hold your breath, WMD will be found and upon close inspection they will reveal "Made
in the USA" tags.

We live in unfortunate times and the "Project for the New American Century" (see
http://www.newamericancentury.org/) people under the guise of democracy and human rights will kill
innocent civilians to achieve their aims. This time it is Iraq, next time who? Bill Kristol who
is Chair of the Project has never seen military combat, just like many of his armchair warmonger
friends who support the war from their air-conditioned rooms. If people want war, let them
personally fight, rather than send a disproportionate number of poor people (mostly
African-American and Hispanics) to the front lines to die at 19 years of age completely naive
about the machinations of a few.

George

From: Chimbelcho at aol.com
Now that the invasion is well under way I want to see these weapons found
in Iraq. If they are not found, and it is established that Iraq did not
possess them after all, I want to see those who have lied to us about these
weapons prosecuted, impeached and convicted for crimes against humanity,
along with Saddaam Hussein, Chemical Ali and others who have murdered
people for ideological and political reasons.

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[Chimbelcho]

Post by Tim de Mello
Lots of us are waiting for the same.
But allow me to make a prediction. They will "find" WMDs and concoct a story
just like in 1991 they "found" an eye-witness nurse who horrified the
American public with tales of Kuwaiti babies being thrown out of their
incubators by inhuman Iraqi soldiers so that they could
take these incubators to Iraq.

Tim,

I share your cynicism in this matter. But I think the stakes are very high now, and the whole world is watching - not just a committee of spineless sychophants in the Congress of the United States, as was the case when that 15 year-old Nayirah gave her false testimony, and Papa Bush repeated that lie. If they do what you are predicting they would, I have every hope they would be found out, just as they were in less than a year after the incubator story broke. Then they would be guilty of mass murder and of a diabolical cover up to deceive the hearts and minds of Mericans and the rest of the world.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Mervyn Lobo]

Post by Chimbelcho

From: Chimbelcho at aol.com
We were told that the justification for this war of

invasion was that Iraq

possessed chemical and biological weapons in enough

quantities to pose a

threat to the rest of the world, including United

States.

Folks,
Does anyone else remember Sudan?
The US sent cruise missiles and bombed a factory in
the country producing medicines.

The reason they did this was because they had info
from the CIA that:
1) The factory was owned by Osama bin Laden.
2) The factory was producing chemical weapons.


Sudan let the factory grounds be inspected by:
1) Western journalist.
2) The Americans.
3) Anyone who was interested.


So far, the CIA and the Americans have tried to sweep
the matter under the carpet. Keep in mind that this is
the same CIA was not able to predict the fall of the
Soviet Union. And they were tracking the communist
there for 50 years!

What is really sad (to me) is that the western
journalist have also sweept the Sudan mater under the
carpet. I guess the matter is of no importance to the
people they cover the news for.

Mervyn


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[Tim de Mello]

From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com> said

" . . . let them personally fight, rather than send a disproportionate
number of poor people (mostly African-American and Hispanics) to the front
lines to die . . "

==

And the British send their Gurkha troops.

Tim de Mello

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[Sunila Muzawar]

Arundhati Roy's article "Mesopotamia. Babylon. The Tigris And Euphrates" is
an interesting read. It's available at :

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20030402&fname=iraq&sid=1

We can go on forever on this war in Iraq discussion and it will serve little
purpose for those poor Iraqis who suffer. The sight of an Iraqi four year
old child bleeding to death from injuries sustained from the US bombing
after both her parents were killed in the same bombing, has caused some of
us much trauma.

Wonder what would happen in America if the world turned the war to their
soil and decided that they had to dislodge international terrorist Bush, a
dictator (since he wasn't democratically elected) in a country with WMD ?
How do you think America would handle American civilian casualties of the
kind, the Iraqis are enduring ?

I know this just a wild thought since reality cannot seem that way, but if
the world really boycotts American goods and the American dream turns sour,
this scenario couldn't be far away.....maybe not in our lifetime
though.....after all the American wealth is definitely going to go up with
all that Iraqi oil.

Sunila

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[Mervyn Lobo]

--- Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote: >
++++ How do we measure potency ?? Even after being

Post by Bosco D'Mello
hammered for the last 2 weeks, SH is still a potent
threat.

@@@@ A potent threat to who? If I remember correctly,
prior to the war, Saddam could not fly aircraft in his
own country. Iraqi's were able to watch UN inspectors
destroy Saddams weapons. The UN inspectors on the
ground could act on any info the US provided and
search any site the US wanted searched. The bottom
line is the US only 'felt' that Saddam may have
weapons and that was a good enough excuse to invade
and destroy Iraq.


++++ We know the US has bulldozed and shafted the

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Canadians
on a number of trade/economic issues - soft-wood
lumber, steel, agriculture, travel, etc.....
irrespective of GATT, WTO rulings. So much for the
hullaballoo about NAFTA !!

@@@@@ When the US goes around pushing for a trading
treaty, believe me, it has only US interests at heart.
NAFTA is a prime example. And its not only the
Canadians getting shafted. The US subsidizes its
farmers to such an extent that farmers in
Africa/China/India cannot compete or sell their
products to the US. So much for "free trade."

+++++ The rest of the world is "so knowledgable"

Post by Bosco D'Mello
about the US that they keep
pouring(investing) dollars into the US economy.

@@@@@You may not have to wait to long for that to
change. Interest groups were trying to push Congress
to pass laws allowing US Courts to be able to sieze
the assets of, and sue, Saudi citizens. The result? A
mass transfer of US$ to the Euro.

Post by Bosco D'Mello
There's
something that attracts the rest of the world to the
US, isn't it ?? US consumerism has even invaded Goa
aka Pepsi, Coke, etc....

@@@@@Be careful here, Bosco. Don't anger the Americans
least, the next thing you hear, is that they have
declared war on URAK :-)

Mervyn





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[Bosco D'Mello]

Thanks to James, Tariq, Fred and George for the links
to those articles.

Yes the Kuwaitis did lie about the incubator story -
they were fighting to get their country back. They were
rocked from their cradle-to-grave welfare lifestyles.
And they knew where Washington's interests were. They
played it right !! But it's not the only story that
spun the war-theory and drove Washington to spearhead
the liberation of Kuwait back in 1991.

We do know for a fact, the Iraqis pilfered everything
they could lay their hands on. More than incubators !!

[Lawrence Rodrigues]

"War continues in Iraq. They're calling it Operation Iraqi Freedom. They
were going to call it Operation Iraqi Liberation until they realized that
spells 'OIL.'" Jay Leno

"Yesterday, the president met with a group he calls the coalition of the
willing. Or, as the rest of the world calls them, Britain and Spain." Jon
Stewart

"According to the New York Times, Saddam Hussein has mined all his oil
fields, planted bombs in all his major cities, he's got bombs in the
military installations, in the airports, and he's mined all the government
buildings. There's not much left for us to do, really." Jay Leno

"Good news for Iraq. There's a 50 percent chance that President Bush will
confuse it with Iran." Craig Kilborn

"President Bush spent last night calling world leaders to support the war
with Iraq and it is sad when the most powerful man on earth is yelling, 'I
know you're there, pick up, pick up." Craig Kilborn

"President Bush spent the day calling names he couldn't pronounce in
countries he never knew existed." Jay Leno

"President Bush found out something this week. Between the countries of
Camaroone, Chile, Angola and Syria, Angola plays the best music when they
put you on hold." Craig Kilborn

"As you all know we're about to start March Madness. That's NCAA college
basketball tournament when they start with 64 teams and you whittle them
down to just one, you know kind of like our allies." Jay Leno

"CNN said that after the war, there is a plan to divide Iraq into three
parts ... regular, premium and unleaded." Jay Leno

"Turkey has voted not to allow U.S. troops into their country and Saddam
Hussein said 'You can do that?'" Jay Leno

A lot of students around the country protested the war today. The National
Youth and Student Peace Coalition sponsored an anti-war organization called
'Books Not Bombs.' President Bush said, 'Why do you want to drop books on
them?'" Jay Leno

"Experts say that if we go to war with Iraq, oil could reach as much as $80
a barrel. Of course, after the war it will be free." Jay Leno

"Saddam Hussein also challenged President Bush to a debate. The Butcher of
Baghdad vs. the Butcher of the English language." Jay Leno

"President Bush announced tonight that he believes in democracy and that
democracy can exist in Iraq. They can have a strong economy, they can have a
good health care plan, and they can have a free and fair voting. Iraq? We
can't even get this in Florida." Jay Leno

"In an interview with Dan Rather, Saddam has challenged President Bush to a
live, televised debate. I think this would be fair, since English is a
second language to both of them." Jay Leno

"President Bush has said that he does not need approval from the UN to wage
war, and I'm thinking, well, hell, he didn't need the approval of the
American voters to become president, either." David Letterman

"In a speech earlier today President Bush said if Iraq gets rid of Saddam
Hussein, he will help the Iraqi people with food, medicine, supplies,
housing, education, anything that's needed. Isn't that amazing? He finally
comes up with a domestic agenda and it's for Iraq. Maybe we could bring that
here if it works out." Jay Leno

"Secretary of State Colin Powell addressed the United Nations Security
Council, offering a compelling 90-minute presentation that not only
furthered his case but reminded the world why America is second to none in
the field of PowerPoint." Jay Leno

"You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein? Because he hates
America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret. He is French, people."
Conan O'Brien

"I read today that the president was interrupted 73 times by applause and 75
times by really big words." Jay Leno

"This week officials from France, Russia and Germany accused President Bush
of having a fondness for war. Yeah, when asked about it, a spokesman for
Bush said, 'It's a one syllable word, of course he's fond of it.'" Conan
O'Brien

[Mervyn Lobo]

--- Chimbelcho at aol.com wrote: >

Post by Chimbelcho
We were told that the justification for this war of
invasion was that Iraq possessed chemical and
biological weapons in enough quantities to pose a
threat to the rest of the world, including United
States.

Folks,
Check out this audio link below. It will give you a
clearer idea on the 'why' of the war and believe me,
the rest is real scary too.
Mervyn


http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml?display=day&todayDate=04/01/2003






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[Eddie]

Life & Crimes of Saddam and Uday...an article in Sunday edition of Indian
Express...

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=21491

Regards
Eddie Verdes

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bosco D'Mello" <bospam at canada.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 8:39 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Re: War in Iraq

I don't see how we can give Saddam Hussein the
benefit-of-the-doubt !!
Best wishes - Bosco

[Bosco D'Mello]

On Sun, 06 Apr 2003, "Sunila Muzawar"

On Sat, 05 Apr 2003, "Bosco - GoaNet Volunteer"

God-speed to the liberators of Iraq. God Bless the
innocent citizens of Iraq !!

@@@@ Aren't the two sentences above contradicting ?

+++ Not the way I see it. You probably see it that way
! But then again you see George Dubya as not being the
democratically elected President of the USA. The same
President who returned the Republicans to majorities in
the House and Senate in Nov 2002, who presently enjoys
overwhelming support across the political spectrum on
his handling of Iraq. Visit
www.gallup.com/poll/specialReports/pollSummaries/sr030224.asp

Ohhh these Americans !! Bloody confused lot !! Heck,
now the American public does not even care if the US
finds WMD in Iraq. tch-tch-tch !!

We're still waiting for you to enlighten us and tell us
where in the world do you think is there "real"
democracy. We'd appreciate that.

Oh and they do have a flourishing democracy in Iraq.
Parliament, Ministers, the works.....Why, President
Saddam Hussein was elected president with 100% of the
votes counted in October 2002 - not a single hanging or
pregnant chad on any ballot like those folks in
Florida. Ahem !! I must say - his was the only name on
the ballot.

If I may add - Nobody !! Nobody likes or supports the
insanity of war !! But what's gotta be done has to be
done.

Best wishes - Bosco

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[Chimbelcho]

Post by Tariq Siddiqui
The supporters of war view this in terms of Saddam Hussein and his
crimes, while the opponents of war, view these events in a
more global perspective including humanitarian and empire-building.

No Tariq. The supporters of war view this in terms of:

a) Being either with them or with the terrorists.

b) Being a patriot or a traitor, if you are a Merican.

c) Being a moral Christian conservative or an immoral secular liberal communist

Cheers,

Santosh

[James Almeida]

Folks,

All you Monty Python fans will appreciate this ....

I do realize that the role of the Information Ministry is to engineer
propaganda, but ....

Everytime I see Mr. Salaf, the Iraqi information minister, issue his war
updates at his press conferences, it reminds me of that episode in one of my
favorite movies, The Search for the Holy Grail, between King Arthur and the
Black Knight!

James




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[Sunila Muzawar]

From: "Bosco D'Mello" <bospam at canada.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Re: War in Iraq
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 07:23:45 -0700 (PDT)
On Sun, 06 Apr 2003, "Sunila Muzawar"

On Sat, 05 Apr 2003, "Bosco - GoaNet Volunteer"

God-speed to the liberators of Iraq. God Bless the
innocent citizens of Iraq !!

@@@@ Aren't the two sentences above contradicting ?
+++ Not the way I see it. You probably see it that way
! But then again you see George Dubya as not being the
democratically elected President of the USA. The same
President who returned the Republicans to majorities in
the House and Senate in Nov 2002, who presently enjoys
overwhelming support across the political spectrum on
his handling of Iraq. Visit
www.gallup.com/poll/specialReports/pollSummaries/sr030224.asp
Ohhh these Americans !! Bloody confused lot !! Heck,
now the American public does not even care if the US
finds WMD in Iraq. tch-tch-tch !!

Got it in one. Shallow lot aren't they ??!!

We're still waiting for you to enlighten us and tell us
where in the world do you think is there "real"
democracy. We'd appreciate that.

Didn't quite get this. Was there a message on this? I may have missed it
then. Anyway, here's an answer. Despite their occassional problems,
democracy certainly thrives in the following countries :

England, India, Japan, etc.

Wouldn't say that about America. And not only because of Bush's
non-election. But freedom of speech/thought & expression is seriously
censored by the dictates of the administration cronies. Incidentally, the
news yesterday was that the Americans fired at a car in which Al Jazeera
reporters were. The car carried the Al Jazeera logo so the firing was
targetted. What does that tell you about the democratic values of Americans
?

Oh and they do have a flourishing democracy in Iraq.
Parliament, Ministers, the works.....Why, President
Saddam Hussein was elected president with 100% of the
votes counted in October 2002 - not a single hanging or
pregnant chad on any ballot like those folks in
Florida. Ahem !! I must say - his was the only name on
the ballot.

Have you gone nuts ? ;-)

If I may add - Nobody !! Nobody likes or supports the
insanity of war !! But what's gotta be done has to be
done.

Sure so that some get richer and others poorer and to hell with the many
deaths, injury, and misery which is the result. Talk about insensitivity !

Sunila

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[francis.newspix]

I feel Sunila goes around with blinkers on, thinking that democracy thrives
in England and India, contradicting herself with "occasional problems".
For it to be thriving it must not have problems, unless we are to disregard
the views of the few for whom it has failed, in which case you are no better
than the American administration. I am sure the thousands of Muslims and
Sikhs massacred in India would feel the same.
In talking about targeting journalists - this happens in most conflicts. As
a photojournalist I have personally covered conflicts and civil disturbances
the world over and I can tell you that your beloved India is no exception.
Restrictions are placed on movement of journalists due to fear of reporting
the truth.
I have personally suffered at the hands of the "democratic" Indian
authorities. One gruesome incident in the aftermath of Indira Gandhi's
assassination will always haunt me. The Indian government broadcast
directives via loudhailers in vehicles to stop western journalists by
whatever means, from reporting the massacres of Sikhs.
On one particular evening we were in a remote village covering the forced
evacuation of Sikhs by the Hindus. As we were unaware of the government's
incitement to commit crimes, we carried on with our coverage of the
evacuation on the belief that with the army present it was safe.
However this was not to be so, what happened next was not what one would
associate with a democracy. We were attacked by a mob of over 70, and as we
were considered foreigners the military personnel stood by and did not
intervene. With the experience of similar situations I managed to extricate
my 2 colleagues, retake control of our taxi and fortunately drive away to
safety, despite not knowing where we were heading. Unfortunately the 3-men
Indian TV crew were not so lucky. We later learnt that they did not make it
to safety, they were cornered, battered and torched.
So I would say Sunila don't blindly repeat what you have heard and aim
criticism at others.
While the majority of people watch the events unfold in the comfort and
safety of their homes, cameramen and photojournalists risks life and limbs
to carryout their assignments.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Sure so that some get richer and others poorer and to hell with the many
deaths, injury, and misery which is the result. Talk about insensitivity !

The above too applies to India .

Francis Dias
dias_yahoo.com

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Didn't quite get this. Was there a message on this? I may have missed it
then. Anyway, here's an answer. Despite their occassional problems,
England, India, Japan, etc.
Wouldn't say that about America. And not only because of Bush's
non-election. But freedom of speech/thought & expression is seriously
censored by the dictates of the administration cronies. Incidentally, the
news yesterday was that the Americans fired at a car in which Al Jazeera
reporters were. The car carried the Al Jazeera logo so the firing was
targetted. What does that tell you about the democratic values of Americans
?

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Oh and they do have a flourishing democracy in Iraq.
Parliament, Ministers, the works.....Why, President
Saddam Hussein was elected president with 100% of the
votes counted in October 2002 - not a single hanging or
pregnant chad on any ballot like those folks in
Florida. Ahem !! I must say - his was the only name on
the ballot.

Have you gone nuts ? ;-)

Post by Bosco D'Mello
If I may add - Nobody !! Nobody likes or supports the
insanity of war !! But what's gotta be done has to be
done.

Sure so that some get richer and others poorer and to hell with the many
deaths, injury, and misery which is the result. Talk about insensitivity !
Sunila

[James Almeida]

Folks,

As a follow-up to my Monty Python reference from yesterday, you will find
the following interesting: (Click on the link)
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/08/sprj.irq.sahaf.profile.reut/index.html

The most interesting quote from this piece was:

{Abdul-Aziz, a Saudi writer who would not give his last name, said: "Sahaf
is vulgar but he is a brave liar... If the rest of the Iraqi government or
army were this brave, they would inflict many more losses on U.S. and
British forces."}.

After reading this, maybe that celebrated French post modernist, Jacques
Derrida, was right when he argued that reality is but a social construction!
More power to the Black Knight! :-)

In the interests of full disclosure, I must caution you that the above link
is from an "Merican, anti-terrorist, Christian conservative" source! :-)

Best,
James




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[Bosco D'Mello]

Tariq,

Post by Tariq Siddiqui
There are two important issues emerging in this

discussion here and in the world. The supporters of war
view this in terms of Saddam Hussein and his
crimes, while the opponents of war, view these events
in a more global perspective including humanitarian and
empire-building.

+++ I'm afraid we cannot separate the two issues -
Saddam Hussein and Humanitarian causes go together. We
cannot separate the two issues for the sake of
convenience of discussion.

+++ What humanitarian conditions were the people of
Iraq living under SH ? Did they have it better before
the US went in and pummelled SH's regime ?? Do we know,
accept and face the truth of what SH and his Mukhabarat
and Fedayeen did to terrorise innocent Iraqis ?? Where
were we - when the innocent Iraqis were crying out to
the world - "When will this terror stop ?". Was that
asking too much then ?? Where were we when Iraqi
children suffered from malnutrition while SH and his
cronies continued to lead a life of opulence. We can be
certain that the Iraqi casualties due to the US bombing
for the last 20 days have been far less than Iraqi
casualties at the hands of the represive regime of SH.
No !! We cannot separate the two issues. Do the images
we see now on TV leave us squirming ? Fortunately then
we did not see the images of what went on in Abu Gharib
and other infamous SH locations. We may be fortunate
seeing the Americans going into Baghdad and not the
Russians - or Baghdad would have resembled Grozny !!
Let's not be Anti-War for the sake of being Anti-War !
History has showed us what inaction in such times can
lead to !!

+++ And what empire building are we referring to ? Due
to US and other Western influences alot of the
soceities in the Middle East are a lot more liberal
than their rulers would like to be. Even expatriates
who live there have it better due to Western
influences. The US is just looking out for it's own
interests. Having said that discussions about US
interests in laying their hands on Iraqi oil are also
misplaced though not totally. Iraq is a failed economic
enterprise !! Even though they possess abundance of
wealth, they owe most nations a lot of money. I don't
have the exact numbers, though $7 billion to the
Russians has been mentioned. India is owed money too.
There have been stories of Indians who worked in Iraq
and were not paid their wages. Iraq still owes many
citizens and corporations around the world billions due
to the first Gulf war. Many Goans have compensation
claims against Iraq too. Those claims are handled by
the United Nations Compensation Commission. Iraq
appears to be another Enron or Kmart on a larger
scale.....hardly an enterprise you would rush to invest
in off-the-bat !!

Best wishes - Bosco

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[Chimbelcho]

There are two important issues emerging in this discussion here and in the world.

For the sake of balance it is nice that someone is finally articulating the jingoistic pro-war position in this predominantly anti-war forum. In fact, I am moderately sympathetic to some of the points Bosco raises in the second part of his argument. However, a major portion of Bosco's argument is unlikely to impress anybody here other than the most moral and patriotic of neoconservative Mericans. To an immoral legal alien like me his argument is full of inconsistencies and absurdities. It also lays bare that inseparable virtue of ultraconservatism - hypocrisy.

Here is how I view the specific points that he raises.

+++ I'm afraid we cannot separate the two issues -
Saddam Hussein and Humanitarian causes go together. We
cannot separate the two issues for the sake of
convenience of discussion.

American administrations absolutely can separate the two for the sake of convenience. They did it before 1990. Rumsfeld did it in 1983 and 1984.

+++ What humanitarian conditions were the people of
Iraq living under SH ? Did they have it better before
the US went in and pummelled SH's regime ?? Do we know,
accept and face the truth of what SH and his Mukhabarat
and Fedayeen did to terrorise innocent Iraqis ??

The rest of the world is thinking Pinochet, Marcos, Duvalier, Suharto, Saddaam Hussein in the 80's, etc.

Where were we when Iraqi children suffered from malnutrition while SH and his cronies >continued to lead a life of opulence?

The rest of the world is still thinking Pinochet, Marcos, Duvalier, Suharto, Saddaam Hussein in the 80's, etc.

We can be certain that the Iraqi casualties due to the US bombing for the last 20 days >have been far less than Iraqi casualties at the hands of the represive regime of SH.

Have we taken into account depleted uranium bombs?

Do the images we see now on TV leave us squirming?

Which TV should we watch? Fox News or Al-Jazeera?

Let's not be Anti-War for the sake of being Anti-War !

How absurd! We absolutely have to be anti-war for the sake of being ant-war. Peace is without a doubt an end in itself. War is a euphemism for murder.

History has showed us what inaction in such times can lead to !!

Peaceful resolution of conflicts counts as action. On the other hand, acquiescence to warmongering impulses counts as inaction.

Due to US and other Western influences alot of the soceities in the Middle East are a >lot more liberal than their rulers would like to be. Even expatriates who live there >have it better due to Western influences. The US is just looking out for it's own
interests. Having said that discussions about US interests in laying their hands on >Iraqi oil are also misplaced though not totally. Iraq is a failed economic enterprise >!!

I agree with the above assertions. Although, I do not believe these are valid reasons to invade Iraq.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Bosco D'Mello]

On Tue, 08 Apr 2003, "Sunila Muzawar"

Post by Sunila Muzawar

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Ohhh these Americans !! Bloody confused lot !! Heck,
now the American public does not even care if the US
finds WMD in Iraq. tch-tch-tch !!

Got it in one. Shallow lot aren't they ??!!

+++ No they are not !! That was sarcasm you picked up
on. I don't think there is anybody on GoaNet who shares
your sheer contempt for the Americans.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Despite their occassional problems, democracy

certainly thrives in the following countries :
England, India, Japan, etc.

+++ What do you mean by "occassional problems" ? Are
you referring to how sometimes members of the
opposition party bait some from the ruling party and
together they overthrow the ruling party and form a
government ?? That's democracy !! When the person you
voted for jumps ship and is a member of a different
political party 3 months after you voted him/her into
office. That's democracy !! Sunila.....hello !! Al Gore
has accepted George Dubya's elevation to the US
presidency, it's about time you did !! If the American
people do not appreciate G.W. policies - he will be
democratically voted out of office in under 2 years or
else we will be seeing him for another 4 years. Your
opinions are misplaced on G.W's presidency.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
But freedom of speech/thought & expression is

seriously censored by the dictates of the
administration cronies.

+++ What are you rambling about ? Any examples ??
Censors in America ?? Have you been influenced by the
US Army's psy-ops during this war ? If you can't
express yourself in the US...where can you... Panaji ?
Has anybody on GoaNet living in the US encountered
something like what Sunila is suggesting ?

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Incidentally, the news yesterday was that the

Americans fired at a car in which Al Jazeera
reporters were. The car carried the Al Jazeera logo so
the firing was targetted. What does that tell you about
the democratic values of Americans

+++ Besides the brave men and women of the armed forces
we should recognize the journalists and photographers
who risk their lives to bring us the news, mostly as it
happens. Brave men and women again !Yes Jazeera may
have been bombed by the USAF yesterday. Their offices
were flattened in Kabul too. Unfortunately there are
over 10 media-persons killed or missing in Iraq. The
Iraqi Information Minister, Mohammed "Deny" Al-Sahaf
recently banned Al-Jazeera in Baghdad - I didn't hear
you protest that. They bumped CNN out of Iraq - didn't
hear you protest that. Every news organization that
operated in Iraq for the last few decades had a Baath
party/government minder following them around Iraq.
Didn't hear you protest that....and no they were not
acting as tourist guides.

The Iraqi liberation is at hand. 1991 - Free Kuwait !
2003 - Free Iraq !!

Best wishes - Bosco

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[Sunila Muzawar]

From: "francis.newspix" <francis.newspix at virgin.net>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Subject: Sunila-Re: [Goanet] Re: War in Iraq
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 19:04:43 +0100
I feel Sunila goes around with blinkers on, thinking that democracy thrives
in England and India, contradicting herself with "occasional problems".
For it to be thriving it must not have problems, unless we are to disregard
the views of the few for whom it has failed, in which case you are no
better
than the American administration. I am sure the thousands of Muslims and
Sikhs massacred in India would feel the same.
In talking about targeting journalists - this happens in most conflicts. As
a photojournalist I have personally covered conflicts and civil
disturbances
the world over and I can tell you that your beloved India is no exception.
Restrictions are placed on movement of journalists due to fear of reporting
the truth.
I have personally suffered at the hands of the "democratic" Indian
authorities. One gruesome incident in the aftermath of Indira Gandhi's
assassination will always haunt me. The Indian government broadcast
directives via loudhailers in vehicles to stop western journalists by
whatever means, from reporting the massacres of Sikhs.
On one particular evening we were in a remote village covering the forced
evacuation of Sikhs by the Hindus. As we were unaware of the government's
incitement to commit crimes, we carried on with our coverage of the
evacuation on the belief that with the army present it was safe.
However this was not to be so, what happened next was not what one would
associate with a democracy. We were attacked by a mob of over 70, and as we
were considered foreigners the military personnel stood by and did not
intervene. With the experience of similar situations I managed to extricate
my 2 colleagues, retake control of our taxi and fortunately drive away to
safety, despite not knowing where we were heading. Unfortunately the 3-men
Indian TV crew were not so lucky. We later learnt that they did not make it
to safety, they were cornered, battered and torched.
So I would say Sunila don't blindly repeat what you have heard and aim
criticism at others.
While the majority of people watch the events unfold in the comfort and
safety of their homes, cameramen and photojournalists risks life and limbs
to carryout their assignments.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Sure so that some get richer and others poorer and to hell with the many
deaths, injury, and misery which is the result. Talk about insensitivity

!
The above too applies to India .

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Do you realise that India is the only
nation in the world where it's majority is downtrodden and the minorities
are far better off? I am talking about the Dalits in India. Secondly, do you
realise that in the last more than two decades, more Hindus have been killed
than people of any other religion ? That again is an anomaly compared to the
rest of the world where the religion and people of the majority thrives.

India is a unique democracy. India is a country of a billion and more
people. India has more poor than any other country. India also has some of
the richest people in the world. India is more diverse in it's religions,
languages, cultures, etc. than any other country in the world. However,
despite all this democracy thrives. Not only is there freedom of expression
and freedom of speech but we also count our votes.

The only thing that would make things even better is a revamp of the
judiciary. But that is ongoing and even in Goa things have improved on this
front to some extent. They expect to catch up with the backlog in four years
time. That's something. Pune is already current with their cases and
everywhere in India this job is on. What is of course bringing down the good
numbers is UP and Bihar but I have a hope that it will not be long before
the people over there revolt and things improve.

The official machinery could have made things difficult for journalists
during the riots especially those that have the sympathy of the
administration like the anti Sikh riots had the sympathy of the ruling
Congress and the recent riots in Gujarat had the sympathy of the ruling BJP,
but that does not stop the media from doing their job. During the recent
Gujarat riots Narendra Modi was so harassed by Star News journalist Rajdeep
Sardesai that he thought Star News was out on a personal vilification
campaign.

Nothing is perfect in the world. If God wanted it like that, you and I have
to accept it. But considering the circumstances and the realities operating,
I would say India as a democracy is far superior to America. And I will
concede the same to England.

But if you cannot see that then perhaps the blinkers are on your eyes ;-)

Sunila

PS. what do you think of the Americans firing deliberately at the Al Jazira
TV crew car ?


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[Bosco D'Mello]

Mervyn,

Post by Mervyn Lobo
Bosco,
Let me try this one last time.
1) Saddam invaded Iran with US support/approval.

+++ The US supported him in the 2nd half of the war
with spy pixs, etc. It was their way of getting back at
the Mullahs for the US embassy debacle. The French sold
him, among other things, Super Etendard fighters with
Exocet missiles that he used effectively to destroy the
Kharg terminal among other Iranian assets. The
Russians, among other things, sold the Scuds that kept
landing in Tehran. The French were also helping SH
build a nuclear reactor - ofcourse only for peaceful
purposes. Probably realize why everybody is defending
their interests now with their anti-war stance.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
2) The US ambasador assured Saddam that they would

not interfer with 'regional problems,' a few days
before Saddam invaded Kuwait.
+++ That's right. I heard that too. Obviously they did
their best to befriend him. At the same time they
warned the Kuwaitis too of what was to come but the
Kuwaitis did not take them seriously.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
The gas used on the Kurds was sold to Saddam by the

US. The Americans should know, they have copies of the
receipts.

+++ The US transferred anthrax and other bacterial
agents.....anyway same deadly products. They can't be
excused. The chemical plants/weapons were built by
German companies. Not just one plant !

+++ And just before the first Gulf War a Canadian, Dr.
Bull was helping SH build a Super-Gun ! Unfortunately,
somebody (the rumour is the Israelis) got to him.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
IMHO, the reason they did not go all the way

to Bagdad the first time is because the chemical
weapons were still active.

+++ IMHO, they didn't go to Baghdad because they
thought the Arab members of the coalition could not
stomach having Americans in Baghdad. But then again the
US could have had ulterior motives to leave SH in power
as they were able to squeeze plenty of $$$ out of the
Kuwaitis, Saudis and others. More jobs back home and
sub-contracts to Canadians and others.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
Prior to March 17th, the Iraqi people were watching

the UN/US make Saddam destroy his weapons. In a few
more weeks, Saddam would become impotent. A few more
weeks, thats all it would have taken.

+++ You really believe that, eh ?? You really think he
was gonna be a good Grade 1 kid and stick his hands out
of his pocket. Something he has never done in his life.
I guess you haven't yet seen thru the complexities of
SH devious mind.

Post by Mervyn Lobo
The way I see it, the US has just made Saddam a

martyr to those Arabs on the political and religious
fringes.

+++ Once we (including the Arabs you refer to) see more
of what life really was like in SH's Iraq the sooner we
will want to forget about his existence. Can't think of
any dictator who is adored after he is gone.

It's not long now...........

Best wishes - Bosco

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[George Pinto]

Post by Bosco D'Mello

Post by Bosco D'Mello
The Iraqi liberation is at hand. 1991 - Free Kuwait !

2003 - Free Iraq !!

Bosco,

I am confused. I could not find the names of the democratically elected Prime Minister or
President or Members of Parliament of "free" Kuwait. Not sure which "free" Kuwait you are
referring to.

George

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[Bosco D'Mello]

On Wed, 08 Apr 2003, Santosh <Chimbelcho at aol.com> wrote:

My comments with @@@

@@@ There have been 2 arguments I have been making:

1) Support for the war to get rid of Saddam Hussein and
how misplaced/misguided anti-war opinions are.

2) The US is the world's only superpower and will do
whatever it takes to defend and further her interests
and there is not a thing anybody can do about it.

Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ I'm afraid we cannot separate the two issues -

Saddam Hussein and Humanitarian causes go together. We
cannot separate the two issues for the sake of
convenience of discussion.

Post by Bosco D'Mello

Post by Chimbelcho
American administrations absolutely can separate the
two for the sake of convenience. They did it before
1990. Rumsfeld did it in 1983 and 1984.

@@@ What did Rumsfeld do in 1983/84 - meet with SH ?
Offered SH some satellite images ? What else ? I
believe they also shipped some arms to Iran.

Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ What humanitarian conditions were the people of

Iraq living under SH ? Did they have it better before
the US went in and pummelled SH's regime ?? Do we
know, accept and face the truth of what SH and his
Mukhabarat and Fedayeen did to terrorise innocent
Iraqis ?? Where were we when Iraqi children suffered
from malnutrition while SH and his cronies continued to
lead a life of opulence?

Post by Bosco D'Mello

Post by Chimbelcho
The rest of the world is still thinking Pinochet,
Marcos, Duvalier, Suharto, Saddaam Hussein in the >>

80's, etc.

@@@ And you can add the Shah of Iran, Somoza,
Milosevice and every dictator you can name. It does not
change the fact that something had to be done to get
rid of Saddam Hussein - now ! All dictators eventually
met their fate....including Zia-ul-Haq. Are you
suggesting we leave people like SH alone to do what
they like ??

Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ We can be certain that the Iraqi casualties due

to the US bombing for the last 20 days have been far
less than Iraqi casualties at the hands of the
represive regime of SH.

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Have we taken into account depleted uranium bombs?

@@@ No we haven't and you have rightly pointed that
out. I think you are referring to uranium-tipped tank
shells. A number of people in Southern Iraq have
reported all kinds of medical issues since the 90s.
Apparently the water aquifiers are contaminated. We
have no knowledge of any independent study to ascertain
exactly what is happening there. We also know that a
lot of Iraq's chemical weapons facilities were in the
area. Alot of those weapons were used against Iran and
most of the fighting was in the South. We also know
Iraq does not exactly follow EPA guidelines in handling
chemicals.

Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ Do the images we see now on TV leave us

squirming?

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Which TV should we watch? Fox News or Al-Jazeera?

@@@ We are all free to obtain information from every
possible source so as to ascertain the truth. There are
plenty of media sources. If we believe that US networks
are biased in favour of the US, we would be naive to
think that Al-Jazeera is independent. Just like the US
networks, they too have a target audience - the Arab
world. It's not difficult to stir-up emotions on the
Arab street.

@@@ Heard this on the BBC this evening - "While the
Arab world today watched Al-Jazeera in shocked
disbelief - seeing Iraqis hugging and dancing with the
GIs and Marines, Syrian TV had a program on Islamic
Architecture".

@@@ So you decide where you get your information.

Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ Let's not be Anti-War for the sake of being

Anti-War !

Post by Bosco D'Mello
How absurd! We absolutely have to be anti-war for the
sake of being ant-war. Peace is without a doubt an
end in itself. War is a euphemism for murder.

@@@ Why is it absurb ? I'm not saying to go to war at
all times. I am in favour of this war - to get rid of
SH. I can see no rationale in your general anti-war
stance.

Post by Bosco D'Mello

Post by Chimbelcho
History has showed us what inaction in such times

can lead to !!

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Peaceful resolution of conflicts counts as action. On
the other hand, acquiescence to warmongering impulses
counts as inaction.

@@@ Maybe you can tell us when was the last time there
was a peaceful resolution to a conflict. My memory
fails me. We as human beings have almost always
resorted to violence to keep the peace. If there was no
threat of war - we would have no peace.

If we resorted to peaceful resolutions and negotiations
- In 1990, Saddam Hussein may have crossed over into
Saudi Arabia, the UAE and other oil producing countries
of the region. He would have control of OPEC and oil
may have cost $100/- a barrel. The world's economies
would have been devastated and we would still be
complaining that the US did not do anything to deal
with him.

And like some Americans say - the French people could
have been speaking German, if we resorted to peaceful
resolutions.

Peace without war - is only Utopia !

Saddam Hussein GONE !! Jubilant Iraqis finally
expressing themselves. Don't miss the news today !
People, specifically Goans, in Kuwait are relieved. The
tense lives they've led for the last 23 years - first
with bomb explosions, assasination attempts and then an
Iraqi invasion followed by liberation. Still Iraqi
threats persisted due to the missiles....But now Saddam
Hussein is history....this is the real world !!

Welcome back !!

Best wishes - Bosco

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[Bosco D'Mello]

On Sun, 09 Apr 2003, George Pinto

Post by Bosco D'Mello
The Iraqi liberation is at hand. 1991 - Free Kuwait

! 2003 - Free Iraq !!

Bosco,

I am confused. I could not find the names of the
democratically elected Prime Minister or
President or Members of Parliament of "free" Kuwait.
Not sure which "free" Kuwait you are
referring to.

- George

George,

First of all, I was alluding to the Free Kuwait
movement of 1990. Free as in Freedom from SH's Iraq. I
don't know how much you followed the first Gulf War.
The movement I believe was launched in London, England
and then became an international movement with rallies
in major cities, etc. I hope that clears the confusion.
Some websites:

www.freeq8.com/freekuwait.htm
www.archcarving.com/National%20Archives/national_archives.htm
http://d4maths.lowtech.org/mirage/pics4.htm

The current debate has been about the Iraq war v/s
Anti-war. I'm not sure if you are interested in
continuing the debate or starting a new thread. If you
like detail information on Kuwait's political structure
visit :

www.kuwaitmission.com
www.kuwaitmission.com/facts.html
www.alommah.gov.kw
www.kuwaitonline.com/aboutkw/aboutkw.htm

I'm not sure you will find all the names you are
looking for. Briefly I can tell you that the Prime
Minister is not elected but nominated by the ruler also
known as the Emir. They have no president. Members of
Parliament are elected by the people. However women and
members of the armed services cannot participate in the
electoral process.

If I may add Kuwait has a sizable Goan population. Some
estimates of 20,000. Over 200,000 Indians. Don't know
how accurate the numbers are.

Best wishes - Bosco

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[Mervyn Lobo]

--- Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote: >

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Once we (including the Arabs you refer to) see
more of what life really was like in SH's Iraq the >

sooner we will want to forget about his existence. >
Can't think of any dictator who is adored after he >
is gone.

Bosco,
I can think of one.
His name is Adolf Hitler :-)
Mervyn

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[Chimbelcho]

I have no interest in continuing this argument. This is my last post on this thread. This war is almost over, and I want to go home.

However, I want to see those weapons of mass destruction found, and Saddaam and his cronies tried for their crimes. If the weapons are not found, I want those responsible for invading Iraq and killing its people, prosecuted under international law. I am happy that one tyrannical regime has come to an end, but unhappy that a lot of people had to die to achieve that end. I refuse to accept that a war of aggression is a just means to end tyranny in this world.

I am also apprehensive about the future - fearful that the warmongers might have Syria and Iran next on their agenda. Arguments can be twisted, lies can be told, evidence fabricated, and bogey men erected right in front of our eyes by people who wield superpower, and who are driven by a self-righteous ideology and a messianic zeal, to rationalize their actions, in a manner similar to what we have just witnessed.

It is wise for the powerless to always remain skeptical of those in power.

Cheers,

Santosh

[Sunila Muzawar]

From: "Bosco D'Mello" <bospam at canada.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Re: War in Iraq
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 19:39:22 -0700 (PDT)
On Tue, 08 Apr 2003, "Sunila Muzawar"

Post by Sunila Muzawar

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Ohhh these Americans !! Bloody confused lot !! Heck,
now the American public does not even care if the US
finds WMD in Iraq. tch-tch-tch !!

Got it in one. Shallow lot aren't they ??!!

+++ No they are not !! That was sarcasm you picked up
on. I don't think there is anybody on GoaNet who shares
your sheer contempt for the Americans.

It is not sheer contempt I feel for the Americans. It is sheer incredibility
that a nation of educated people with democratic leanings can be so
gullible.

Are
you referring to how sometimes members of the
opposition party bait some from the ruling party and
together they overthrow the ruling party and form a
government ?? That's democracy !! When the person you
voted for jumps ship and is a member of a different
political party 3 months after you voted him/her into
office. That's democracy !!

Thanks for the education. It was unnecessary though because that's what
happens in India and I had already agreed that India was a relatively good
example of democracy.

Sunila.....hello !! Al Gore
has accepted George Dubya's elevation to the US
presidency, it's about time you did !! If the American
people do not appreciate G.W. policies - he will be
democratically voted out of office in under 2 years or
else we will be seeing him for another 4 years. Your
opinions are misplaced on G.W's presidency.

Sure ! You can keep your blinders on and join the rest of the gullible folks
there.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
But freedom of speech/thought & expression is

seriously censored by the dictates of the
administration cronies.
+++ What are you rambling about ? Any examples ??
Censors in America ?? Have you been influenced by the
US Army's psy-ops during this war ? If you can't
express yourself in the US...where can you... Panaji ?
Has anybody on GoaNet living in the US encountered
something like what Sunila is suggesting ?

The minute someone has publicly talked against the war or against USA, they
have been removed from the media. Arnett, Susan Sarandon, Dixie Chicks, Phil
Donahue are good examples. If that is not censorship by the dictates of the
administration cronies what is ?

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Incidentally, the news yesterday was that the

Americans fired at a car in which Al Jazeera
reporters were. The car carried the Al Jazeera logo so
the firing was targetted. What does that tell you about
the democratic values of Americans
+++ Besides the brave men and women of the armed forces
we should recognize the journalists and photographers
who risk their lives to bring us the news, mostly as it
happens. Brave men and women again !Yes Jazeera may
have been bombed by the USAF yesterday. Their offices
were flattened in Kabul too. Unfortunately there are
over 10 media-persons killed or missing in Iraq.

Yes I agree that it is unfortunate. I also think it is sad. But the deadly
firing at the Al Jazeera car was more than that. It was deliberate. And the
one of the Western reporters actually saw it happen and recounted it on
television.....I think it was Sky news but am not sure.

The
Iraqi Information Minister, Mohammed "Deny" Al-Sahaf
recently banned Al-Jazeera in Baghdad - I didn't hear
you protest that.

Incidentally, they changed their minds later about banning Al Jazeera. You
keep comparing the Americans with the Iraqi administration. None of us have
any doubt that the Iraqi administration was bad. In fact, that Al Sahaf was
a complete joker just telling incredible lies with a straight face and
exposing how poor the administration actually was. What I have a problem
with is the American double facedness. Why can't you face up to that ?

The Iraqi liberation is at hand. 1991 - Free Kuwait !
2003 - Free Iraq !!

What's free about Kuwait ? The expat maids are treated as badly as they were
before and the Kuwaitis are subject to their sheikhs as always. Iraq is now
a looter's paradise. Is that your idea of freedom ?

Sunila



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[Bosco D'Mello]

Post by Chimbelcho
I have no interest in continuing this argument. This

is my last post on this thread. This war is almost
over, and I want to go home.

+++ Yes the war is almost over and the anti-war lobby
is in damage control mode. From Hollywood to Cairo,
from Berlin to Moscow, Tim-buk-three and beyond. And
now we hear it from the horse's mouth, Prez Chirac :

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030410/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_france_chirac_030410103216

What a hypocrite !!! I guess now he realizes how many
$$$$ the French people are gonna lose....or should I
say Euros ?

The Arabs are now saying they were supporting the Iraqi
people all along. What a joke.

The Iraqi people are speaking - listen carefully !!

Post by Chimbelcho
I am happy that one tyrannical regime has come to an

end, but unhappy that a lot of people had to die to
achieve that end.

+++ I share your thoughts. Millions died to get rid of
Hitler. They did not die in vain. Many thousand Iraqis
died before this war. And those living had given up for
dead. The face of helpless 11-year old Ali Abbas will
live with me for the rest of my life. At the same time
I know who was really responsible for his condition.

Post by Chimbelcho
I am also apprehensive about the future - fearful

that the warmongers might have Syria and Iran next on
their agenda. Arguments can be twisted, lies can be
told, evidence fabricated, and bogey men erected right
in front of our eyes by people who wield superpower,
and who are driven by a self-righteous ideology and a
messianic zeal, to rationalize their actions, in a
manner similar to what we have just witnessed.

+++ The silence from Syria is deafening !! Lot of
accusations have been thrown at them. Then there must
be some truth to them ??

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030410/pl_nm/iraq_usa_syria_dc&cid=615&ncid=1473

+++ Ideology, is what has brought us all as a human
race to where we are today. Ideology is not a monopoly
of the self-righteous. And the messianic zeal mantra
applies to Hindu fundamentalists, Islamic
fundamentalists and Christian right-wingers alike, who
have all sought to rationalize their actions.

Post by Chimbelcho
It is wise for the powerless to always remain

skeptical of those in power.

+++ But informed of all the facts.

We cannot predict the future and what is in store for
the Iraqi people. But now that they've tasted freedom -
everything is possible. We do know they are and will be
better off than they have ever been in a long, long
time !!

Best wishes - Bosco

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[Bosco D'Mello]

On Wed, 10, 08 Apr 2003, "Sunila Muzawar"

Post by Sunila Muzawar
The minute someone has publicly talked against the

war or against USA, they have been removed from the
media. Arnett, Susan Sarandon, Dixie Chicks, Phil
Donahue are good examples. If that is not censorship by
the dictates of the administration cronies what is ?

+++ The Dixie Chicks......you gotta be kidding me. All
the Dixie Chicks wanted was to sell more records and
concert tickets. They are nowhere close to an iconic
stature of John Lennon to be called anti-war. Now they
too are in damage control mode. Calling it a joke. Read
:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/launch/20030403/en_launch/212895

Peter Arnett - the respected news reporter. After
reporting on so many wars, thought he had graduated to
a general, albeit an armchair one !!

Susan Sarandon - Has been an "off-the-road" H'wood
personality all her life. A pacifist ! If I may say so.
I don't know where/when she was censored.

Phil Donahue - Is he out of retirement ? I went back to
George Pinto's link :

www.fair.org/press-releases/iraq-censorship.html

It appears that most "censorship" has occured due to
economic or administrative reasons. But that too is
disputable.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Yes I agree that it is unfortunate. I also think it

is sad. But the deadly firing at the Al Jazeera car was
more than that. It was deliberate. And the
one of the Western reporters actually saw it happen and
recounted it on television.....I think it was Sky news
but am not sure.

+++ I agree with you that it was unfortunate. I've
already highlighted the fact that over 10
journos/photographers are missing in Iraq and last
night we learned that 2 doctors from Doctors without
Borders are missing in Baghdad. But I doubt we can be
certain it was deliberate. Iraq is a warzone and nobody
is safe - soldier, civilian, journo.....it's
life-or-death ! I certainly hope Al-Jazeera continues
to broadcast it's uncut images from Iraq to the Arab
world. The alarm has gone off - it's time to wake-up !

Post by Sunila Muzawar
You keep comparing the Americans with the Iraqi

administration.

+++ I doubt I have done that at anytime. We can't
compare Apples and peanuts !

Post by Sunila Muzawar
In fact, that Al Sahaf was a complete joker just

telling incredible lies with a straight face

+++ He probably would have a shot in Hollywood. Maybe
guest on SNL or if they bring Sienfeld back, he could
be Kramer's room-mate.

His bravado was keeping in line with the Arab Street.
Now the Arab Street knows what the Iraqi people really
wanted all along.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030410/wl_nm/iraq_arabs_dc_5

Post by Sunila Muzawar
What I have a problem with is the American double

facedness. Why can't you face up to that ?

+++ Double facedness or Double Standards. You're
reminding me of that Travolta/Cage movie. Let me see
now - The French do it, the Germans, the Russians, the
Pakis, oh-oh....the Indians do it too and my favourite
Chief Minister of Goa does it. Aw Shucks !! Everybody
seems to be doing it.

Did I hear somebody mention "blinders" ?? They
certainly seem to be in vogue somewhere !

Post by Sunila Muzawar
What's free about Kuwait ? The expat maids are

treated as badly as they were before

+++ The maids are treated just as well/poorly as maids
in Dubai, Muscat, Doha, Jeddah, etc....I want to go on
record here to compliment the folks from the Goa
Welfare Soceity and other Goan organizations in Kuwait
who have stepped forward time and again to help out a
Goan/Indian maids who have run into trouble with their
employers, the law or medical reasons. You are the
heroes at those unfortunate times.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
and the Kuwaitis are subject to their sheikhs as

always.

+++ Just as much as the Makhtoums, Bin-Thanis or the
House of Saud. Kuwait however was the first country to
have an elected parliament, the powers of which are
debatable.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Iraq is now a looter's paradise. Is that your idea of

freedom ?

+++ Sweet Iraqi Freedom ! With a deep breath - smells
fresh !!! Guess some would like to deny that to the
Iraqi people.

We all are a part of history - yet again !!

Best wishes - Bosco

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[Mervyn Lobo]

--- Chimbelcho at aol.com wrote: >

Post by Chimbelcho
However, I want to see those weapons of mass
destruction found, and Saddaam and his cronies tried
for their crimes. If the weapons are not found, I
want those responsible for invading Iraq and killing
its people, prosecuted under international law.

A reader of The Toronto Star put it aptly today. He
accused G. Bush and gang of being a "weapon of mass
deception."
Mervyn




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[Sunila Muzawar]

From: "Bosco D'Mello" <bospam at canada.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Re: War in Iraq
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:34:14 -0700 (PDT)
On Wed, 10, 08 Apr 2003, "Sunila Muzawar"

Post by Sunila Muzawar
The minute someone has publicly talked against the

war or against USA, they have been removed from the
media. Arnett, Susan Sarandon, Dixie Chicks, Phil
Donahue are good examples. If that is not censorship by
the dictates of the administration cronies what is ?
+++ The Dixie Chicks......you gotta be kidding me. All
the Dixie Chicks wanted was to sell more records and
concert tickets. They are nowhere close to an iconic
stature of John Lennon to be called anti-war. Now they
too are in damage control mode. Calling it a joke. Read
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/launch/20030403/en_launch/212895

That's the saddest thing isn't it. To be intimidated into calling their
truly expressed thoughts a joke ?

Peter Arnett - the respected news reporter. After
reporting on so many wars, thought he had graduated to
a general, albeit an armchair one !!

Right, just like the Fox news guys are nothing but cowboys ! Your opinion of
journalism is very interesting to note.

Susan Sarandon - Has been an "off-the-road" H'wood
personality all her life. A pacifist ! If I may say so.
I don't know where/when she was censored.

She was kept out of some charity dinner where she was originally scheduled
to give a talk.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
You keep comparing the Americans with the Iraqi

administration.
+++ I doubt I have done that at anytime. We can't
compare Apples and peanuts !

Yes, Americans are noted for their peanut sized brains which have one track
agressive intent. ;-)

Post by Sunila Muzawar
In fact, that Al Sahaf was a complete joker just

telling incredible lies with a straight face
+++ He probably would have a shot in Hollywood. Maybe
guest on SNL or if they bring Sienfeld back, he could
be Kramer's room-mate.
His bravado was keeping in line with the Arab Street.
Now the Arab Street knows what the Iraqi people really
wanted all along.

Does anybody know that for sure ? Do you think any self respecting person
will want to be "liberated" to an era of looting, plunder and chaos by
foreigners that have deliberately kept them poor and miserable for the last
decade ?

Post by Sunila Muzawar
What's free about Kuwait ? The expat maids are

treated as badly as they were before
+++ The maids are treated just as well/poorly as maids
in Dubai, Muscat, Doha, Jeddah, etc

But I never said Dubai, Muscat, Doha, Jeddah were free. You said Kuwait was
free though. Incidentally, the only other country where maid are treated
worse than in Kuwait is Saudi Arabia.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
and the Kuwaitis are subject to their sheikhs as

always.
+++ Just as much as the Makhtoums, Bin-Thanis or the
House of Saud. Kuwait however was the first country to
have an elected parliament, the powers of which are
debatable.

Well, your comment on the dubious democracy in Kuwait is accepted. However,
I don't understand why you would mention the Makhtoums, etc. After all,
nobody said Dubai or the other Gulf countries were different in any way.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Iraq is now a looter's paradise. Is that your idea of

freedom ?
+++ Sweet Iraqi Freedom ! With a deep breath - smells
fresh !!! Guess some would like to deny that to the
Iraqi people.

That says it all for your idea of freedom. May you rest in bliss so that the
rest of us can be spared your wonderfully insensitive angle on the war in
Iraq and the fate of the Iraqis.
Sunila

P.S. Nothing smells fresh in Iraq....not after all that bombing !


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[Bosco D'Mello]

On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:41:01 -0400, "Sunila Muzawar"

Post by Sunila Muzawar
That's the saddest thing isn't it. To be intimidated
into calling their truly expressed thoughts a joke ?

+++ What are you saying ?? You already own a Dixie
Chicks album ?? What's sad ? Natalie Maines herself is
saying that her/their comment was meant to be a joke.
Why is difficult for you to believe her ??

+++ Celebrities are celebrities - they say/do crazy
things to get our attention and in turn we watch more
of their movies and buy more of their records. They
don't have much credibility in the US unless you are a
member of the paparazzi !!

Post by Sunila Muzawar

Post by Bosco D'Mello
Peter Arnett - the respected news reporter. After
reporting on so many wars, thought he had graduated

to a general, albeit an armchair one !!

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Right, just like the Fox news guys are nothing but
cowboys ! Your opinion of
journalism is very interesting to note.

+++ Excuse me !! Did he have to go on Iraqi TV to be
journalistic even when another US Network was footing
his bills ?

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Yes, Americans are noted for their peanut sized

brains which have one track agressive intent. ;-)

+++ The same peanut brain that thinks big !! Tariq's
email a couple of day's ago re the NYT article stating
water was the main reason for the war is definitely an
eye-opener for the peanut-sized brain. Thanks for the
insight Tariq and I mean that sincerely.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Do you think any self respecting person will want to

be "liberated" to an era of looting, plunder and chaos
by foreigners that have deliberately kept them poor and
miserable for the last decade ?

+++ Maybe somebody else on this forum can tell us what
happened immediately after Operation Vijay. I don't
know - but I'm guessing there was a little of looting,
plunder, etc.... on a smaller scale since the
population was less compared to Iraq.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
But I never said Dubai, Muscat, Doha, Jeddah were

free.

+++ I know you didn't. I did !! Just to keep you in
touch with reality. They are all the same. Same barrel
of oil - different oilfield !!

Post by Sunila Muzawar
You said Kuwait was free though.

+++ Now you are twisting my words. I said "1991 - Free
Kuwait, 2003 - Free Iraq". I hope you get the
difference.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Incidentally, the only other country where maid are

treated worse than in Kuwait is Saudi Arabia.

+++ It's good to know somebody is tracking the
Bullyboard Top 10 !! There's nothing I can do about it.

Post by Sunila Muzawar

Post by Bosco D'Mello

Post by Sunila Muzawar
Iraq is now a looter's paradise. Is that your

idea of freedom ?

+++ Your missing the point, Sunila. 3 generations of
Iraqis have not had an opportunity to express
themselves. I believe what we are seeing are
frustrations of a Rich Country with a Poor Populace.
Similar things happened in Kuwait during the occupation
and after the liberation. I've seen it in Mumbai too -
when there is no law-and-order.

Post by Sunila Muzawar
That says it all for your idea of freedom. May you

rest in bliss so that the rest of us can be spared your
wonderfully insensitive angle on the war in
Iraq and the fate of the Iraqis.

+++ Oh-oh, you're sending me packing !! As I said in my
last post, neither you or I can look into the future of
the Iraqi people. We have no crystal ball ! We can
speculate all we like one way or the other but we don't
know. One thing is certain - their lives will be better
than what it was for the last 3 decades. It's your
stand that appears insensitive to the Iraqi people. You
still think leaving SH in power was the better
alternative just because you are anti-war or is it
anti-US or is it anti-Bush or is it anti-Iraqi people !!

Best wishes - Bosco

PS. Visit www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com He
did not even make the US deck-of-cards. What a
nincompoop !!

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[Bosco D'Mello]

In reply to various messages. My comments with +++

I am so glad that today India possesses a nuclear

deterrent.

+++ And what do you think India can do with the nuclear
deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike (like the
Americans with(out) UN sanction) Pakistan for fomenting
terrorism in Kashmir ??

+++ And like Tariq rightly pointed out - the economic
weapon is just as powerful as the military one !!

We are now in April 2003. Nearly a year since

Afghanistan was "liberated". However, the promises of
elections and democracy are as faint as ever. After
all, why bother with that, when you have your lackey in
power there right?

+++ For a country ravaged by war and 3 generations that
have only known war, it is and will be difficult to
organize those "elections". Karzai's safety is only
guaranteed within Kabul. Surely Tariq you are not
suggesting that things would have been better if the
Taliban was still in power ?

I will try and answer the last two.

1) My solution to Iraq would be to get the Iraqi Govt
to destroy any/all weapons of mass destruction.
2) I would deal with them thru the U.N. The U.N. had
inspectors in the Iraq. The Iraqi govt was destroying
the weapons that were deemed illegal by the UN.

+++ I suppose that's what the world (UN) has been
telling the Iraqi government for the last 12 years. How
many resolutions did it take for Iraq to realize that
those weapons that they recently destroyed were illegal
as per the UN. Why did they build these weapons
post-Gulf War even though UN resolutions had
pre-emptively declared them illegal. Something to think
about. We wish things were really simple, right ??

+++ Even though UN sanctions were in place, Iraq
successfully tried to re-create their arsenal post-Gulf
War. Furthermore they created new weapons in the last
12 years. At the same time blaming the US and other
countries for various illnesses faced by Iraqi people
due to the sanctions. Saddam continued to build palace
after palace while Iraqi children faced malnutrition
and the Iraqi people faced hunger. Valuable resources
were diverted for maintaining his grip on power. Don't
ignore these facts !!

No WMD which Iraq may or may not have would have

reached America.

+++ Why the may or may not have ?? Are you convinced
they exist or not ??

Sure, so that gives the licence to the USA to kill

some more ?

+++ No it does not !! But then unfortunately innocent
people have always died in wars of independence (East
Timor, etc) and liberation (Kosovo, Afghanistan, etc).
Wars are never predictable - with or without "shock and
awe". But despots like Saddam Hussein have to go !

If one really needed to get rid of Saddam a single

snipper could have done the job.

+++ I guess we've all watched too many movies. I don't
know if you are aware but Saddam Hussein has not made a
public appearance in over 2 years. He has made numerous
appearances on Iraqi TV only. I wonder when he last
made a trip abroad ??

Who is responsible for all the diseases that are

going to set in even fifty years later ?

+++ It should go down in history that Saddam Hussein
was responsible for all the ills that the Iraqi people
had to endure for the last 30+ years and for
generations to come.

And why all this? Because they want the oil.

+++ Yes, it probably is all about oil....and will be
for a long time to come. The American way of life is
threatened by steep oil prices.....I don't think the
GoaNetters in the US and Canada are happy with the
price of gas/petrol at the pump. Just the rising price
of gas/petrol triggers a domino effect on the economy.
Look at inflation numbers since January 2003. The spurt
in inflation was mostly attributed to the spike of
gas/petrol prices. So the US is defending their
interests. And by doing so are also doing the dirty
work for the rest of the world.

And tell me what kind of a democracy in Iraq can a

fake democracy like the USA create ?

+++ So if the US is a fake democracy, please tell us
where in the world can we find 'real' democracy.

+++ Most of the anti-American sentiments expressed here
are by US-based netters. That's the wonderful thing
about the US - civil liberty ! Even a serving
President's private life was made public with lurid
details. Can this happen in most countries ??

This may not be the last war the US fights in the
Middle-East. They will be back, if their interests are
threatened.....you can only do this and more, when you
are the only SUPER-POWER !!

- Bosco

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[Tim de Mello]

From: "Bosco D'Mello" <bospam at canada.com>
+++ And what do you think India can do with the nuclear
deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike (like the
Americans with(out) UN sanction) Pakistan for fomenting
terrorism in Kashmir ??

=======

"nuclear deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike . . "

I think this is called an Oxymoron.

Tim de Mello
============

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[Mervyn Lobo]

Post by Bosco D'Mello
I suppose that's what the world (UN) has been
telling the Iraqi government for the last 12 years.
How
many resolutions did it take for Iraq to realize
that those weapons that they recently destroyed were
illegal
as per the UN. Why did they build these weapons
post-Gulf War even though UN resolutions had
pre-emptively declared them illegal. Something to
think about. We wish things were really simple,

right ??


Bosco,
According to Canadian press reports, just prior to the
start of the US attack, Iraq was destroying the
weapons deemed illegal by the UN.

The US was forcing Saddam Hussien into becoming an
impotent dictator.

However, the US was not satisfied with the situation.
Some people in the White House wanted war. War at any
cost.

And now the same team is warning Iran, Syria, Korea,
"Hey buddies, you are next."

Mervyn








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[Eddie]

--- Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote:
I suppose that's what the world (UN) has been

Post by Bosco D'Mello
telling the Iraqi government for the last 12 years.
How
many resolutions did it take for Iraq to realize
that those weapons that they recently destroyed were
illegal
as per the UN. Why did they build these weapons
post-Gulf War even though UN resolutions had
pre-emptively declared them illegal. Something to
think about. We wish things were really simple,

right ??

As someone rightly said: UN is good in peace keeping not peace making!

Eddie Verdes

[James Almeida]

Folks,

I'd recommend that you may find the following worth reading:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/05/arts/05WARB.html?ex=1050537942&ei=1&en=7fec98f7a73f7185

(you have to register at the NY Times website - it's FREE!).


My sense is that the combatants on either side of the war debated on GN
would find that this provides a quick summary of the intellectual basis used
for this action. It's naive to rely on media caricatures (of 43, or any
other politician - regardless what David Frum opines!) to form one's
assessment of their intellectual capacities.

Speaking about the intellectual basis for this war, some of you may also
find it interesting to read a piece written by Paul Berman in the March 23
issue of the NY Times magazine (I've a hard copy, but I presume a soft copy
could be had from the Times website for a small fee) on the "Al Qaeda
philosopher", Sayyid Qutb.

Happy reading (don't forget that the US springs forward this weekend!)
James




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[Bosco D'Mello]

I am so glad that today India possesses a nuclear

deterrent.

+++ And what do you think India can do with the

nuclear deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike (like
the Americans with(out) UN sanction) Pakistan for
fomenting terrorism in Kashmir ??

"nuclear deterrent? Can it pre-emptively strike . . "
I think this is called an Oxymoron.

+++ So why do we have to be glad that India has a
nuclear deterrent. All those efforts in the nuclear
weapons field could have instead been utilized in the
nuclear power generation field. But then again....how
many chest-thumping Indians would that have produced ?

*********************

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