Discussion:
Re: CATHOLIC ???
(too old to reply)
P D
2005-05-13 10:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Salus wrote: Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually
want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?

My reading of Sunil's (avertano teles) post was why do Goanetters
selectively pick on bashing Catholics?

Could it be because Catholics simply roll over and turn the other cheek or
do some revel in self-flagellation? Or, the threat of fatwa, etc.

Goanetters should learn to be charitable and sensitive -- treating ALL
religions with love and respect. Unbridled singling out of a single
religious entity is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While
encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration should establish limits on
religious bashing. Devout Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead
of being unwittingly held as a captive audience.

Pat de Sousa
Maryland, USA


.
Gabe Menezes
2005-05-13 16:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by P D
Salus wrote: Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually
want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?
My reading of Sunil's (avertano teles) post was why do Goanetters
selectively pick on bashing Catholics?
Could it be because Catholics simply roll over and turn the other cheek or
do some revel in self-flagellation? Or, the threat of fatwa, etc.
RESPONSE: There is a certain amount of lee way and a point of line
that, if crossed evokes outrage. I do hope the majority of Catholics
on this forum are stronger after the criticisms! After all religion is
a dogmatic belief and a faith which inspires. If one is sure of ones
faith then nothing but nothing will deter that person, come what
may.This I would add holds true for all religions. It is true in the
West, Christianity is open to criticism and religions such as Islam,
Sikhism and Hinduism would have their followers bearing down on any or
all persons taking the 'Mickey' . Having said this there have been
protests recently here in regards to shows such as Jerry Springer.



Cheers,
Gabe Menezes.
London England.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-13 16:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Unbridled singling out of a single religious entity
is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While
encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration
should establish limits on religious bashing. Devout
Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead of
being unwittingly held as a captive audience.
If the above is meant to suggest that all religions
should be treated equally as far as criticism is
concerned, I agree 100%. But if it is meant to give
religion in general, or any particular religion, a
free pass or some kind of special treatment, then I
have strong objections.

We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful
religious ideas and practices. We ought to recognize
that religion does not necessarily make a person good.
There are many among the pious and religious who have
a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should
never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious
immunity. There ought to be no limits on religious
bashing on Goanet.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-13 18:50:41 UTC
Permalink
We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful religious ideas and practices. We ought to
recognize that religion does not necessarily make a person good. There are many among the
pious and religious who have a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should
never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity. There ought to be no
limits on religious bashing on Goanet.
I agree with Santosh and would rephrase his last sentence to read "When warranted and fact-based,
there ought to be no limits on religious and ideological criticism on Goanet". In the 6 years I
have been on Goanet, I have read justified and fact-based criticisms of the Catholic religion
(pedophile priests, etc.). The only sick and depraved comments I have read have been made against
Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at least one comment I protested a month ago.

I also belong to another forum which frequently criticizes the govt. of Pakistan and the lack of
democracy there, some of it related to honor killings, child labor and issues with Islamic law. I
do not believe any religion or ideology should get a free pass. All public truths should be
tested in a public way. For devout Catholics and devout religious people there are other devout
discussion-lists devoted to their way of thinking, cloistered from the lens of public scrutiny. A
place where one can feel secure and comfortable in one's biases and beliefs. Goanet is not such a
place - it is the Anjuna flea market and not the Saligao Church.

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-14 03:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Pinto
I agree with Santosh and would rephrase his last
sentence to read "When warranted and fact-based,
there ought to be no limits on religious and
ideological criticism on Goanet".
George,

Thanks for rephrasing my last sentence. I hope it
reassures those who complain about religious
criticism.
Post by George Pinto
The only sick and depraved comments I have read have
been made against Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at
least one comment I protested a month ago.
There are no "devout" Hindus/Sikhs or fervent Indian
nationalists in this forum to complain about this. I
cannot imagine what would happen if this forum were
invaded by RSS types. It is unlikely that religious
chauvinists of any persuasion really mean to express
love and affection towards another religion.
Post by George Pinto
For devout Catholics and devout religious people
there are other devout discussion-lists devoted to
their way of thinking, cloistered from the lens of
public scrutiny. A place where one can feel secure
and comfortable in one's biases and beliefs. Goanet
is not such a place - it is the Anjuna flea market
and not the Saligao Church.
There have been many attempts over the years to make
Goanet such a place by petitioning the people in
charge to expel the religious critics.

My appeal to those who are interested in making this
happen is: Please collect signatures on an open
petition in this forum. Let us see how many devout
Goanetters want this to be a religion-friendly forum.
If you can get enough signatures then you can even
have Goanet patronized (matronized?) by a Hindu
goddess or saint.

Cheers,

Santosh
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-14 12:35:33 UTC
Permalink
Response to George down after.
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ???
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT)
there ought to be no limits on religious and ideological criticism on
Goanet". In the 6 years I
have been on Goanet, I have read justified and fact-based criticisms of the
Catholic religion
(pedophile priests, etc.). The only sick and depraved comments I have read
have been made against
Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at least one comment I protested a month ago.
Regards,
George
By George!!

Since when and where did you learn that "pedophile priests etc." are a part
of Catholic Doctrine??
Please let us know; is it Doctrine or human failing showing itself. Or may
be a failure on your part to analyse the truth! Sin is part of man! No one
denies that! The church doctrine tries to help man sin less or avoid it
altogether.

Kitea munttat re tum?? Christao oh heretic?

In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and Sikhs; it is their
religion, and shows in their religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their religion; or so they say. These
controversial practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-14 17:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial
practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Do the pious and religious people on Goanet agree with
the above assessment? Do they have anything to say to
Nasci Caldeira, here? I would love to see some of
their selflessness, tolerance, and love and affection
towards others in action.

Cheers,

Santosh
halur rasho
2005-05-14 17:55:32 UTC
Permalink
The comment below is why I believe secularism is
doomed in India and among Indians. When majoritarian
elements indulge in religion based bigotry, it can
perhaps be understood (but not excused) as a means to
power. When minorities, whom secularism is designed to
protect, indulge in blatant religious bigotry, whither
secularism ? Why indeed do we need it?
Post by Nasci Caldeira
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their
religion, and shows in their religious practices; in
these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These
controversial practices have not been denied by
them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
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George Pinto
2005-05-14 21:30:33 UTC
Permalink
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial practices have not been denied by them, as
religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
I know Nasci does not get it. But I wonder if the so-called devout Catholics on the forum
understand religious chauvinism and will speak out. What if Hindus and others on this forum
challenged Catholic religious pratices and beliefs? Is the Virgin birth, Trinity, Ascension into
heaven, etc. fair game for them too?

One fundamental problem underlying this religious chauvinism is some Goan Catholics have lorded it
over others (except for white-skins) over the years, feeling superior to Hindus in Goa because of
their "preferred association" with Portugese Catholic culture, or African Goans over black
Africans, or Pakistan Goans over local Muslims, etc. Their bluff has been called on this forum,
and like the Emperor, they wear no clothes. With humility, some have revised their way of
thinking, including critically assessing their Catholic faith and beliefs. They deserve credit.
Others who do not like to be checkmated, yell "Foul" not realizing the game has changed since a
generation or two ago when things were different "back home in the good old days". Equality &
justice are part of the rules of the game now.

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-15 02:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by halur rasho
The comment below is why I believe secularism is
doomed in India and among Indians.
Actually, these religious commentators are not proud
of their Indian heritage. Indeed, this one in
particular from down under abhors the entire ancient
Indian culture, including such simple, innocuous
things as our traditional garments. There may be
others who do not call themselves Indians, clinging to
all kinds of political and legal technicalities.

To be fair, some of this might be in reaction to the
atrocious excesses of the Hindu fundamentalists and
Indian nationalists who were in power until recently,
and to the military invasion of Goa in 1961. However,
it does seem as if there is a kernel of truth to the
notion that if some of these folks had their way, they
would, in a manner analogous to the RSS/VHP Hindu
fundamentalists, do away with secularism, and impose a
Christian theocracy, or a Western imperialist dominion
over India.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-15 18:35:02 UTC
Permalink
they would, in a manner analogous to the RSS/VHP Hindu fundamentalists, do away with secularism,
and impose a Christian theocracy, or a Western imperialist dominion over India.
One reason some of the openly devout types who wear religion on their sleeves have not engaged in
issues of justice and equality is due to an altar boy mentality that has carried over into
adulthood. If they are to challenge anything it is outside the church, preferably someone's else
religion. In life, they have protested little, are not used to questioning authority or initiating
change. Sadly, all the world for them, including Goanet, ought to be a catechism class and any
provocative or threatening view opposed.

Regards,
George
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-15 18:37:49 UTC
Permalink
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]RE: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
I know Nasci does not get it. But I wonder if the so-called devout
Catholics on the forum
understand religious chauvinism and will speak out. What if Hindus and
others on this forum
challenged Catholic religious pratices and beliefs? Is the Virgin birth,
Trinity, Ascension into
heaven, etc. fair game for them too?
Nasci:
This is precisely what I am complaining about! Santosh is, under cover of
Science, leading a tirade against christian beliefs and none against other
beliefs. And you Mr George Pinto is also doing the same; talking of
supposedly racist and religious chauvinism among Goan catholics but not
talking of inherent racism and casteism in the hindu religion and fold! How
funny can you be.

Your name suggests that you are of brahmin origin, now a christian; why do
you not use your status in society to tell your and my hindu brothers and
sisters that they should not spill their religious practices into the
street, and into laws that are hurtful to other communities and not
conducive to communal and religious harmony???
You have not answered my question: "Since when and where did you learn that
'pedeophile preists etc are chistian doctrine"?
Please assert that they are a demonstration of 'human failing' and not a
product of doctrine or normal practices of any religion. If you do not do
this minimum, then 'Shame on You' I say.
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
gilbertlaw
2005-05-15 18:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Goa-netters are sophisticated enough to enjoy a good sensible and educational post on what ever subject, especally if it is related to us and that includes our religion.

Personally what I find unfortunate and disheartening is that many posts on Goanet, and surprisingly from seasoned / educated posters, are full of contradictions and non-sense. There is little semantic definition and often distortions, of the issues being discussed. Many of these intelligent goa-netters love to argue, often for the sake of an argument. They often, 'put words in other mouths' not to mention misconstrue another's post, just so that they can make and then debate an issue.

Santosh is my friend and colleague. I and a majority of Goa-netters, have much respect for him. However let's analyze his post below: Is his beef (which we have all read) against religion or is it against an individual? And does he make that distinction is his diatribe against the religious belief at issue?

"Give religion in general, or any particular religion, a free pass" and that is same as those "with have a sick and depraved mentality, ... who should never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity"? ... There ought to be no limits on religious bashing on Goanet.

The above is seen among the best of us. Frankly I would expect the above from a new / novice poster who cannot draw the difference between the true faith and someone's interpretation of another person's practice of the faith. But it is difficult to excuse a very intelligent person who does not take the trouble to separate them. As mentioned in the past: On Goanet, When does an intelligent expose end and a personal activism (sometimes ignorant oversight) begin?

What I find disconcerting about Santosh's posts of religion is: He care-freely walks away from Hinduism by just stating that he no longer follows it. Then he goes on to pontificate / bash very other religion except about the Belief where he could make the greatest impact, if he chooses to do so. (And I have no doubt about his sincerity).

This is not dissimilar to Mario Govea lecturing to Goans how they should handle the issue of caste and marriage among Goans (which I fully agree). But then Mario tells us that all four of his kids are married and likely to marry Caucasians aka white (and a reference to race which was uncalled for).:=))

I noticed how the topic of homosexuals in the Catholic faith suddenly ended, when the issues being discussed were defined or when the contradictions or non-issues exposed. I was also amused on the dead-silence when I suggested to Goa-netters to practice cafeteria-rules in their home and tell us how ther 'personal reforms' have worked. Similarly there were no takers among Goan social activists on discussing the issue of divorce among Diaspora Goans. And this includes the divorcees on cyber Goa, who otherwise vocally persue their own agenda against the Catholic Chruch.

How we hate to talk about anything that is "too close for comfort!" :=))
Regards. GL


Santosh Helekar:
If the above is meant to suggest that all religions should be treated equally as far as criticism is concerned, I agree 100%. But if it is meant to give religion in general, or any particular religion, a free pass or some kind of special treatment, then I have strong objections.

We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful religious ideas and practices. We ought to recognize that religion does not necessarily make a person good.
There are many among the pious and religious who have a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity. There ought to be no limits on religious bashing on Goanet.


Pat:
Unbridled singling out of a single religious entity is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration
should establish limits on religious bashing. Devout Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead of being unwittingly held as a captive audience.
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-15 19:22:50 UTC
Permalink
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
Pedeophile priests and practice are not a Catholic or Christian Doctrine,
but definitely a human failure of these persons. hence religion is not at
fault here. Humans are weak and so all the more they need God. Sin is a
condition of 'MAN' and the Christian religion tries to help towards a
reduced sin and or sinless society.
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial
practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Santosh asks:
Do the pious and religious people on Goanet agree with
the above assessment? Do they have anything to say to
Nasci Caldeira, here? I would love to see some of
their selflessness, tolerance, and love and affection
towards others in action.
Nasci asks santosh:

What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
Does your science only leads a tirade against 'Christian Beliefs' in the
name and under cover of Science?
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and Muslim and Sikh and
Bhudhist beliefs and practices? Not a word from you!
Are u a fundamentalist hindu under disguise of an agnostic?
Are you implying that multiple hindu gods are Scientist proven and accepted,
but not Jesus as God?
Are U saying that Bhudhists and Zorastrians and Muslims and Sikhs and Jains
etc have their beliefs and practices proven scientifically?

I do not know; I think you are confusing Science with Religion and trying to
'create confusion' within Christian and other religions and covering up the
beliefs of your own religion. Looks like you are privately ashamed of you
own beliefs! And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians and others
are not secularist in the public domain.

All that I have been trying to say is that: The Hindu beliefs are spilling
out into the 'Streets' and into laws being made without consideration of
their impact on the 'cultural and religious freedom' of other groups. That
is why, all religious practices whether muslim, hindu or christian, sikh,
Bhudhist,Jain or Zoraster, should be strictly private and not be allowed to
spill over outside their home or place of religion! This includes wearing of
'religious clothes' and other external trapments, when in public jobs and
schools and universities etc. For the precise reason of avoiding 'conflict'
in religious sentiment and thereby ensuring a peaceful society.

All places immediately outside the 'home and home yard' and outside the
place of 'religious practice and the religion place yard', would be
considered public places, and out of reach for religious practices like
processions and noise emanating elements. There should be freedom for all to
practice their religion at home or in their place of worship. Freedom of
religion also includes the right to propogate religion in pre determined
areas of interaction between peoples, but in private and within enclosures,
approved by community and society.

The above is what is prevailing as of now in advanced and so called western
countries; true religious freedom without conflict. All communities are
free! Ban on cow slaughter and segregation in eating places and in places of
worship are not the norm, like in India, and are simply not tolerated. There
is lots of heresy and anti religious sentiment, but without violence; but
religion survives, all the same. Freedom to believe or not to believe. To be
and let be!

I Nasci demands an apology from Santosh Helekar for leading a 'tirade'
against Christian beliefs only, in the name of science; and for twisting
assertions and opinions to suit his mission of this 'tirade'.

I have nothing agianst your other scientific exploits and postings; let
science progress; but let theology and pious beliefs also prevail. If u
don't get sleep; than so be it. Don't spoil my sleep.

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 01:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
My assessment is that Nasci Caldeira is prejudiced
against Hinduism and Sikhism. He has also personalized
my general criticism of theistic religion, and become
erroneously convinced that I am attacking his
religion, in particular, when I am doing no such
thing.

Nasci Caldeira has now acquired the habit of being
personally abusive and obnoxious in response to simple
questions about religious beliefs, which were not even
directed at him.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Does your science only leads a tirade against
'Christian Beliefs' in the name and under cover of
Science?
Many beliefs of Christianity, Hinduism, Islam,
Buddhism, etc. contradict Science. Science is a
dispassionate endeavor, which is in material conflict
with religious explanations of the nature world.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and
Muslim and Sikh and Bhudhist beliefs and practices? >
Science contradicts many of these beliefs. For
instance, Science contradicts Hindu cosmology,
astrology, ayurveda, reincarnation and miracles.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Not a word from you!
Nonsense! I have challenged and criticized all harmful
Hindu beliefs and practices. Please see my response to
Gilbert. Please go through the Goanet and Goa-Goans
archives to find my criticisms against the following
Hindu practices:

1. Casteism
2. Astrology
3. Vastushashtra
4. Quackery in the name of Ayurveda
5. Vedic Mathematics
6. Hindutva philosophy and historical revisionism
7. Hindu godmen such as Satya Sai Baba
8. Hindu cults such as ISKCON
9. Hindu miracles and miracle hysteria such as
lactophilic Ganesh idols
10. Contradictions in the Bhagvad Gita.
11. Hindu pseudospiritualism
12. Unwaranted bloated depictions of the knowledge and
achievements of
our ancestors.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are u a fundamentalist hindu under disguise of an
agnostic?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are you implying that multiple hindu gods are
Scientist proven and accepted, but not Jesus as God?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are U saying that Bhudhists and Zorastrians and
Muslims and Sikhs and Jains etc have their beliefs
and >practices proven scientifically?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
I do not know; I think you are confusing Science with
Religion and trying to 'create confusion' within
Christian and other religions and covering up the
beliefs of your own religion.
You are mistaken. You are misrepresenting my views.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians
and >others are not secularist in the public domain.
Please prove that you are a tolerant and secular
individual. Give yourself a chance to redeem yourself
in this forum.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
I Nasci demands an apology from Santosh Helekar for
leading a 'tirade' against Christian beliefs only, in
the name of science; and for twisting assertions and
opinions to suit his mission of this 'tirade'.
I refuse to apologize for false charges leveled
against me. In all my posts I have only pointed out
the conflict between science/rationality and
supernatural religious explanations of the natural
world and natural phenomena, irrespective of whether
these beliefs come from Christianity, Hinduism or any
other religion.

I demand an apology in return for Nasci Caldeira's
recurrent obnoxious personal attacks against me. In
fact, one of the Goanet administrators has already
warned this guy privately about his personal invective
against me.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Don't spoil my sleep.
Please don't read my posts.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-16 01:02:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Your name suggests that you are of brahmin origin,
I have stated before and repeat again, I have no
caste. I have been accused of being reasonably nice
looking but that is usually from people who have
nothing else nice to say about me and are just being
polite. Also I am told looks are not important.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
now a christian;
I have never stated whether I am a theist or agnostic
or atheist. My ideas stand or fall on their own
merit. Most of the time they fall - on deaf ears.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
You have not answered my question: "Since when and
where did you learn that
Post by Nasci Caldeira
'pedeophile preists etc are chistian doctrine"?
I have never stated 'pedeophile preists etc are
chistian doctrine"?

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 02:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Santosh is my friend and colleague. I and a majority
of cyber-Goans,have much respect for him. However
let's analyze his post below: Is his beef (which we
have all read) against religion or is it against
an individual? And does he make that distinction is
his diatribe against the religious belief at issue?
Dear Gilbert,

Thanks for the customary kindness. But your charges
against me are false. You are misrepresenting my views
horribly. Have you read my posts on religious issues
and ever tried to understand them? With all
due respect, your gratuitous analysis of my response
to Pat de Sousa is way off the mark.

First, my beef is against people who try to impose
their religious views on others, who want special
exemptions for religious matters in
secular/pluralistic public forums such as this one,
and who brazenly exhibit their holier than thou
attitude (like you do in every single one of your
posts) in public.
But it is difficult to excuse a very intelligent
person who does not take the trouble to separate
them. >As mentioned in the past: On cyber-Goa: When
does an >intelligent expose end and a personal
activism >(sometimes ignorant oversight) begin?
What are you talking about here? What is the purpose
of this innuendo? The excerpt of mine to which you are
referring simply states the following:

1. Religious belief and piety does not necessarily
make a person good.
2. There are many among the religious and the pious
who have a sick and depraved mentality.
3. Religious issues should not receive immunity
against criticism in secular public forums.
4. Those who have a sick and depraved mentality (and I
now add those who are scamming or misinforming the
public) should not be allowed to hide behind religious
immunity.

Do you disagree with any of the above assertions? If
you do, please explain yourself. Cut out the rest of
the nonsense.
What I find disconcerting about Santosh's posts of
religion is: He care-freely walks away from Hinduism
by just stating that he no longer follows it. Then he
goes on to pontificate / bash very other religion
except about the Belief where he could make the
greatest impact, if he chooses to do so. (And I have
no doubt about his sincerity).
Nonsense! I have criticized Hinduism and all harmful
Hindu notions and practices on Goanet and Goa-Goans
for the last 10 years. I have rebutted the views of
Hindutva sympathizers whenever they have ventured in
these forums. If you care to go through the archives
you will find my criticisms against the following
presently relevant, harmful and anti-scientific
practices of Hinduism:

1. Casteism
2. Astrology
3. Vastushashtra
4. Quackery in the name of Ayurveda
5. Vedic Mathematics
6. Hindutva philosophy and historical revisionism
7. Hindu godmen such as Satya Sai Baba
8. Hindu cults such as ISKCON
9. Hindu miracles and miracle hysteria such as
lactophilic Ganesh idols
10. Contradictions in the Bhagvad Gita.
11. Hindu pseudospiritualism
12. Unwaranted bloated depictions of the knowledge and
achievements of
our ancestors.

Will you retract your above false charge against me
after reading through the archives?
I noticed how the topic of homosexuals in the
Catholic >faith suddenly ended, when the issues being
discussed >were defined or when the contradictions or
non-issues >exposed.
Gilbert, the problem with you is you give too much
credit to yourself, which frankly you don't deserve.
Honestly, your posts on the issue of homosexuals did
not make any sense at all. I did not respond to what
you wrote because I did not want to digress into
unrelated and confused matters that you raised. For
instance, you say that Fr. Ivo and Nasci Caldeira are
right about homosexuality, when they claim based on no
evidence that it is a sickness. And then you turn
around and say that I am also right about this issue
when I say and present a professional consensus
statement of the American Psychiatric Association that
homosexuality is not a sickness. Do you think this
type of confusion and obfuscation, coming from an
intelligent person, deserves a response?

Do you tell your patient that the oncologist who says
he has cancer is right, and that the other oncologist
who says he does not have cancer
is also right?

Cheers,

Santosh
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-16 16:20:37 UTC
Permalink
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:46:31 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Does your science only leads a tirade against
'Christian Beliefs' in the name and under cover of
Science?
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and
Muslim and Sikh and Bhudhist beliefs and practices? >
Science contradicts many of these beliefs. For
instance, Science contradicts Hindu cosmology,
astrology, ayurveda, reincarnation and miracles.
Nonsense! I have challenged and criticized all harmful
Hindu beliefs and practices. Please see my response to
Gilbert. Please go through the Goanet and Goa-Goans
archives to find my criticisms against the following
Post by Nasci Caldeira
And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians
and >others are not secularist in the public domain.
Please prove that you are a tolerant and secular
individual. Give yourself a chance to redeem yourself
in this forum.
Nasci's response:

Now that you have made your statements on all religions clear; I do hereby
exonerate you, Santosh from my charge that you were only attacking
Christianity, under the guise of science. You can have a good night's sleep
now.

Thanks, no more hostilities and let there be no more relgions bashing, from
anwhere!

We should only discuss what effects some religious practices have on other
religious or non religious communities. Would you agree with this?

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 18:02:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
We should only discuss what effects some religious
practices have on other religious or non religious
communities. Would you agree with this?
Dear Nasci,

Thanks for that concession. I am extremely happy and
relieved to be able to call you a gentleman who merely
has a difference of opinion with me on certain issues.
I retract all the accusations I made against you
because I recognize the difficulties of communicating
one's ideas clearly through this electronic medium. I
will chalk everything that has been said by you and me
up to a mutual misunderstanding on our part.

Regarding your question, I think I would agree with
you. But let me clarify as to what I would agree
about.

I have nothing against people's private belief or lack
of belief in God or in any religion or cult. My best
friend here in Houston is a devout Catholic. Many of
my closest friends and relatives are Hindu
fundamentalists. My best childhood friend in Goa is a
devout Catholic.

I have no interest in proactively converting people to
my view. I have very rarely, if ever, initiated an
argument on agnosticism or against anybody's private
beliefs in this forum or elsewhere. My posts have
always been in reaction to the following:

a) Prejudice based on religion, ideology, nationality,
etc.,
b) Erroneous assertions whether based on religion or
not,
c) Irrational or anti-scientific propaganda,
d) Claims that faith should supplant science in
explaining certain natural phenomena,
e) Claims that science has proven the notions of a
particular religion,
f) Claims that there is no conflict between science
and religion,
g) Holier than thou attitude of individuals whether on
the basis of religion or not,
h) Exhortations by individuals demanding immunity
against criticism dor religion or some other such
special status for religion,
i) Attempts by some to shut others up or expel them
because of their religious criticisms,
j) Repeated name-calling and abuse on account of
simple disagreements,
k) Unwarranted generalizations based on isolated or
infrequent occurrences.

And lastly I admit that there might have been
occasional slip-ups on my part.

Cheers,

Santosh
avertano teles
2005-05-12 02:06:57 UTC
Permalink
I have been reading a lot about the POPE, GAY PRIESTS, CAFETARIA CATHOLICS,
WOMEN AS PRIESTS, RECENTLY ABOUT THE SIGN OF PEACE IN THE CHURCH. and we
should expect more of such stuff on net. Why should catholic related issues
only be discussed ? Is our mentality confined only in questioning catholic
religion and its principles? Can someone enlighten us whether communities from
other religion discuss such issues the way we discuss pertaining to religion ?
Let's go in for a change of topic pleaaaaaaaaaseeeeeeeeee.

Sunil
Salus Correia
2005-05-12 15:31:58 UTC
Permalink
sunil/avertano wrote...

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:51:17 -0400
From: avertano teles <goanet at goanet.org>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet]CATHOLIC ???
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org

I have been reading a lot about the POPE, GAY PRIESTS, CAFETARIA CATHOLICS,
WOMEN AS PRIESTS, RECENTLY ABOUT THE SIGN OF PEACE IN THE CHURCH. and we
should expect more of such stuff on net. Why should catholic related issues
only be discussed ? Is our mentality confined only in questioning catholic
religion and its principles? Can someone enlighten us whether communities from
other religion discuss such issues the way we discuss pertaining to religion ?
Let's go in for a change of topic pleaaaaaaaaaseeeeeeeeee.

Sunil

______________________________________________________________________________

Come on Sunil or Avertano or whoever you really are! Be proactive and
write about something else. Start another thread, and go on from
there. But please do not tell people not to write on a particular
subject/topic. If someone has something to say, this is their forum to
do so. Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?

Cheers!

Salus
P D
2005-05-13 10:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Salus wrote: Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually
want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?

My reading of Sunil's (avertano teles) post was why do Goanetters
selectively pick on bashing Catholics?

Could it be because Catholics simply roll over and turn the other cheek or
do some revel in self-flagellation? Or, the threat of fatwa, etc.

Goanetters should learn to be charitable and sensitive -- treating ALL
religions with love and respect. Unbridled singling out of a single
religious entity is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While
encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration should establish limits on
religious bashing. Devout Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead
of being unwittingly held as a captive audience.

Pat de Sousa
Maryland, USA


.
Gabe Menezes
2005-05-13 16:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by P D
Salus wrote: Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually
want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?
My reading of Sunil's (avertano teles) post was why do Goanetters
selectively pick on bashing Catholics?
Could it be because Catholics simply roll over and turn the other cheek or
do some revel in self-flagellation? Or, the threat of fatwa, etc.
RESPONSE: There is a certain amount of lee way and a point of line
that, if crossed evokes outrage. I do hope the majority of Catholics
on this forum are stronger after the criticisms! After all religion is
a dogmatic belief and a faith which inspires. If one is sure of ones
faith then nothing but nothing will deter that person, come what
may.This I would add holds true for all religions. It is true in the
West, Christianity is open to criticism and religions such as Islam,
Sikhism and Hinduism would have their followers bearing down on any or
all persons taking the 'Mickey' . Having said this there have been
protests recently here in regards to shows such as Jerry Springer.



Cheers,
Gabe Menezes.
London England.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-13 16:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Unbridled singling out of a single religious entity
is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While
encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration
should establish limits on religious bashing. Devout
Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead of
being unwittingly held as a captive audience.
If the above is meant to suggest that all religions
should be treated equally as far as criticism is
concerned, I agree 100%. But if it is meant to give
religion in general, or any particular religion, a
free pass or some kind of special treatment, then I
have strong objections.

We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful
religious ideas and practices. We ought to recognize
that religion does not necessarily make a person good.
There are many among the pious and religious who have
a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should
never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious
immunity. There ought to be no limits on religious
bashing on Goanet.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-13 18:50:41 UTC
Permalink
We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful religious ideas and practices. We ought to
recognize that religion does not necessarily make a person good. There are many among the
pious and religious who have a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should
never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity. There ought to be no
limits on religious bashing on Goanet.
I agree with Santosh and would rephrase his last sentence to read "When warranted and fact-based,
there ought to be no limits on religious and ideological criticism on Goanet". In the 6 years I
have been on Goanet, I have read justified and fact-based criticisms of the Catholic religion
(pedophile priests, etc.). The only sick and depraved comments I have read have been made against
Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at least one comment I protested a month ago.

I also belong to another forum which frequently criticizes the govt. of Pakistan and the lack of
democracy there, some of it related to honor killings, child labor and issues with Islamic law. I
do not believe any religion or ideology should get a free pass. All public truths should be
tested in a public way. For devout Catholics and devout religious people there are other devout
discussion-lists devoted to their way of thinking, cloistered from the lens of public scrutiny. A
place where one can feel secure and comfortable in one's biases and beliefs. Goanet is not such a
place - it is the Anjuna flea market and not the Saligao Church.

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-14 03:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Pinto
I agree with Santosh and would rephrase his last
sentence to read "When warranted and fact-based,
there ought to be no limits on religious and
ideological criticism on Goanet".
George,

Thanks for rephrasing my last sentence. I hope it
reassures those who complain about religious
criticism.
Post by George Pinto
The only sick and depraved comments I have read have
been made against Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at
least one comment I protested a month ago.
There are no "devout" Hindus/Sikhs or fervent Indian
nationalists in this forum to complain about this. I
cannot imagine what would happen if this forum were
invaded by RSS types. It is unlikely that religious
chauvinists of any persuasion really mean to express
love and affection towards another religion.
Post by George Pinto
For devout Catholics and devout religious people
there are other devout discussion-lists devoted to
their way of thinking, cloistered from the lens of
public scrutiny. A place where one can feel secure
and comfortable in one's biases and beliefs. Goanet
is not such a place - it is the Anjuna flea market
and not the Saligao Church.
There have been many attempts over the years to make
Goanet such a place by petitioning the people in
charge to expel the religious critics.

My appeal to those who are interested in making this
happen is: Please collect signatures on an open
petition in this forum. Let us see how many devout
Goanetters want this to be a religion-friendly forum.
If you can get enough signatures then you can even
have Goanet patronized (matronized?) by a Hindu
goddess or saint.

Cheers,

Santosh
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-14 12:35:33 UTC
Permalink
Response to George down after.
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ???
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT)
there ought to be no limits on religious and ideological criticism on
Goanet". In the 6 years I
have been on Goanet, I have read justified and fact-based criticisms of the
Catholic religion
(pedophile priests, etc.). The only sick and depraved comments I have read
have been made against
Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at least one comment I protested a month ago.
Regards,
George
By George!!

Since when and where did you learn that "pedophile priests etc." are a part
of Catholic Doctrine??
Please let us know; is it Doctrine or human failing showing itself. Or may
be a failure on your part to analyse the truth! Sin is part of man! No one
denies that! The church doctrine tries to help man sin less or avoid it
altogether.

Kitea munttat re tum?? Christao oh heretic?

In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and Sikhs; it is their
religion, and shows in their religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their religion; or so they say. These
controversial practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-14 17:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial
practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Do the pious and religious people on Goanet agree with
the above assessment? Do they have anything to say to
Nasci Caldeira, here? I would love to see some of
their selflessness, tolerance, and love and affection
towards others in action.

Cheers,

Santosh
halur rasho
2005-05-14 17:55:32 UTC
Permalink
The comment below is why I believe secularism is
doomed in India and among Indians. When majoritarian
elements indulge in religion based bigotry, it can
perhaps be understood (but not excused) as a means to
power. When minorities, whom secularism is designed to
protect, indulge in blatant religious bigotry, whither
secularism ? Why indeed do we need it?
Post by Nasci Caldeira
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their
religion, and shows in their religious practices; in
these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These
controversial practices have not been denied by
them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
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George Pinto
2005-05-14 21:30:33 UTC
Permalink
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial practices have not been denied by them, as
religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
I know Nasci does not get it. But I wonder if the so-called devout Catholics on the forum
understand religious chauvinism and will speak out. What if Hindus and others on this forum
challenged Catholic religious pratices and beliefs? Is the Virgin birth, Trinity, Ascension into
heaven, etc. fair game for them too?

One fundamental problem underlying this religious chauvinism is some Goan Catholics have lorded it
over others (except for white-skins) over the years, feeling superior to Hindus in Goa because of
their "preferred association" with Portugese Catholic culture, or African Goans over black
Africans, or Pakistan Goans over local Muslims, etc. Their bluff has been called on this forum,
and like the Emperor, they wear no clothes. With humility, some have revised their way of
thinking, including critically assessing their Catholic faith and beliefs. They deserve credit.
Others who do not like to be checkmated, yell "Foul" not realizing the game has changed since a
generation or two ago when things were different "back home in the good old days". Equality &
justice are part of the rules of the game now.

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-15 02:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by halur rasho
The comment below is why I believe secularism is
doomed in India and among Indians.
Actually, these religious commentators are not proud
of their Indian heritage. Indeed, this one in
particular from down under abhors the entire ancient
Indian culture, including such simple, innocuous
things as our traditional garments. There may be
others who do not call themselves Indians, clinging to
all kinds of political and legal technicalities.

To be fair, some of this might be in reaction to the
atrocious excesses of the Hindu fundamentalists and
Indian nationalists who were in power until recently,
and to the military invasion of Goa in 1961. However,
it does seem as if there is a kernel of truth to the
notion that if some of these folks had their way, they
would, in a manner analogous to the RSS/VHP Hindu
fundamentalists, do away with secularism, and impose a
Christian theocracy, or a Western imperialist dominion
over India.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-15 18:35:02 UTC
Permalink
they would, in a manner analogous to the RSS/VHP Hindu fundamentalists, do away with secularism,
and impose a Christian theocracy, or a Western imperialist dominion over India.
One reason some of the openly devout types who wear religion on their sleeves have not engaged in
issues of justice and equality is due to an altar boy mentality that has carried over into
adulthood. If they are to challenge anything it is outside the church, preferably someone's else
religion. In life, they have protested little, are not used to questioning authority or initiating
change. Sadly, all the world for them, including Goanet, ought to be a catechism class and any
provocative or threatening view opposed.

Regards,
George
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-15 18:37:49 UTC
Permalink
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]RE: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
I know Nasci does not get it. But I wonder if the so-called devout
Catholics on the forum
understand religious chauvinism and will speak out. What if Hindus and
others on this forum
challenged Catholic religious pratices and beliefs? Is the Virgin birth,
Trinity, Ascension into
heaven, etc. fair game for them too?
Nasci:
This is precisely what I am complaining about! Santosh is, under cover of
Science, leading a tirade against christian beliefs and none against other
beliefs. And you Mr George Pinto is also doing the same; talking of
supposedly racist and religious chauvinism among Goan catholics but not
talking of inherent racism and casteism in the hindu religion and fold! How
funny can you be.

Your name suggests that you are of brahmin origin, now a christian; why do
you not use your status in society to tell your and my hindu brothers and
sisters that they should not spill their religious practices into the
street, and into laws that are hurtful to other communities and not
conducive to communal and religious harmony???
You have not answered my question: "Since when and where did you learn that
'pedeophile preists etc are chistian doctrine"?
Please assert that they are a demonstration of 'human failing' and not a
product of doctrine or normal practices of any religion. If you do not do
this minimum, then 'Shame on You' I say.
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
gilbertlaw
2005-05-15 18:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Goa-netters are sophisticated enough to enjoy a good sensible and educational post on what ever subject, especally if it is related to us and that includes our religion.

Personally what I find unfortunate and disheartening is that many posts on Goanet, and surprisingly from seasoned / educated posters, are full of contradictions and non-sense. There is little semantic definition and often distortions, of the issues being discussed. Many of these intelligent goa-netters love to argue, often for the sake of an argument. They often, 'put words in other mouths' not to mention misconstrue another's post, just so that they can make and then debate an issue.

Santosh is my friend and colleague. I and a majority of Goa-netters, have much respect for him. However let's analyze his post below: Is his beef (which we have all read) against religion or is it against an individual? And does he make that distinction is his diatribe against the religious belief at issue?

"Give religion in general, or any particular religion, a free pass" and that is same as those "with have a sick and depraved mentality, ... who should never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity"? ... There ought to be no limits on religious bashing on Goanet.

The above is seen among the best of us. Frankly I would expect the above from a new / novice poster who cannot draw the difference between the true faith and someone's interpretation of another person's practice of the faith. But it is difficult to excuse a very intelligent person who does not take the trouble to separate them. As mentioned in the past: On Goanet, When does an intelligent expose end and a personal activism (sometimes ignorant oversight) begin?

What I find disconcerting about Santosh's posts of religion is: He care-freely walks away from Hinduism by just stating that he no longer follows it. Then he goes on to pontificate / bash very other religion except about the Belief where he could make the greatest impact, if he chooses to do so. (And I have no doubt about his sincerity).

This is not dissimilar to Mario Govea lecturing to Goans how they should handle the issue of caste and marriage among Goans (which I fully agree). But then Mario tells us that all four of his kids are married and likely to marry Caucasians aka white (and a reference to race which was uncalled for).:=))

I noticed how the topic of homosexuals in the Catholic faith suddenly ended, when the issues being discussed were defined or when the contradictions or non-issues exposed. I was also amused on the dead-silence when I suggested to Goa-netters to practice cafeteria-rules in their home and tell us how ther 'personal reforms' have worked. Similarly there were no takers among Goan social activists on discussing the issue of divorce among Diaspora Goans. And this includes the divorcees on cyber Goa, who otherwise vocally persue their own agenda against the Catholic Chruch.

How we hate to talk about anything that is "too close for comfort!" :=))
Regards. GL


Santosh Helekar:
If the above is meant to suggest that all religions should be treated equally as far as criticism is concerned, I agree 100%. But if it is meant to give religion in general, or any particular religion, a free pass or some kind of special treatment, then I have strong objections.

We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful religious ideas and practices. We ought to recognize that religion does not necessarily make a person good.
There are many among the pious and religious who have a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity. There ought to be no limits on religious bashing on Goanet.


Pat:
Unbridled singling out of a single religious entity is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration
should establish limits on religious bashing. Devout Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead of being unwittingly held as a captive audience.
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-15 19:22:50 UTC
Permalink
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
Pedeophile priests and practice are not a Catholic or Christian Doctrine,
but definitely a human failure of these persons. hence religion is not at
fault here. Humans are weak and so all the more they need God. Sin is a
condition of 'MAN' and the Christian religion tries to help towards a
reduced sin and or sinless society.
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial
practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Santosh asks:
Do the pious and religious people on Goanet agree with
the above assessment? Do they have anything to say to
Nasci Caldeira, here? I would love to see some of
their selflessness, tolerance, and love and affection
towards others in action.
Nasci asks santosh:

What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
Does your science only leads a tirade against 'Christian Beliefs' in the
name and under cover of Science?
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and Muslim and Sikh and
Bhudhist beliefs and practices? Not a word from you!
Are u a fundamentalist hindu under disguise of an agnostic?
Are you implying that multiple hindu gods are Scientist proven and accepted,
but not Jesus as God?
Are U saying that Bhudhists and Zorastrians and Muslims and Sikhs and Jains
etc have their beliefs and practices proven scientifically?

I do not know; I think you are confusing Science with Religion and trying to
'create confusion' within Christian and other religions and covering up the
beliefs of your own religion. Looks like you are privately ashamed of you
own beliefs! And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians and others
are not secularist in the public domain.

All that I have been trying to say is that: The Hindu beliefs are spilling
out into the 'Streets' and into laws being made without consideration of
their impact on the 'cultural and religious freedom' of other groups. That
is why, all religious practices whether muslim, hindu or christian, sikh,
Bhudhist,Jain or Zoraster, should be strictly private and not be allowed to
spill over outside their home or place of religion! This includes wearing of
'religious clothes' and other external trapments, when in public jobs and
schools and universities etc. For the precise reason of avoiding 'conflict'
in religious sentiment and thereby ensuring a peaceful society.

All places immediately outside the 'home and home yard' and outside the
place of 'religious practice and the religion place yard', would be
considered public places, and out of reach for religious practices like
processions and noise emanating elements. There should be freedom for all to
practice their religion at home or in their place of worship. Freedom of
religion also includes the right to propogate religion in pre determined
areas of interaction between peoples, but in private and within enclosures,
approved by community and society.

The above is what is prevailing as of now in advanced and so called western
countries; true religious freedom without conflict. All communities are
free! Ban on cow slaughter and segregation in eating places and in places of
worship are not the norm, like in India, and are simply not tolerated. There
is lots of heresy and anti religious sentiment, but without violence; but
religion survives, all the same. Freedom to believe or not to believe. To be
and let be!

I Nasci demands an apology from Santosh Helekar for leading a 'tirade'
against Christian beliefs only, in the name of science; and for twisting
assertions and opinions to suit his mission of this 'tirade'.

I have nothing agianst your other scientific exploits and postings; let
science progress; but let theology and pious beliefs also prevail. If u
don't get sleep; than so be it. Don't spoil my sleep.

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 01:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
My assessment is that Nasci Caldeira is prejudiced
against Hinduism and Sikhism. He has also personalized
my general criticism of theistic religion, and become
erroneously convinced that I am attacking his
religion, in particular, when I am doing no such
thing.

Nasci Caldeira has now acquired the habit of being
personally abusive and obnoxious in response to simple
questions about religious beliefs, which were not even
directed at him.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Does your science only leads a tirade against
'Christian Beliefs' in the name and under cover of
Science?
Many beliefs of Christianity, Hinduism, Islam,
Buddhism, etc. contradict Science. Science is a
dispassionate endeavor, which is in material conflict
with religious explanations of the nature world.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and
Muslim and Sikh and Bhudhist beliefs and practices? >
Science contradicts many of these beliefs. For
instance, Science contradicts Hindu cosmology,
astrology, ayurveda, reincarnation and miracles.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Not a word from you!
Nonsense! I have challenged and criticized all harmful
Hindu beliefs and practices. Please see my response to
Gilbert. Please go through the Goanet and Goa-Goans
archives to find my criticisms against the following
Hindu practices:

1. Casteism
2. Astrology
3. Vastushashtra
4. Quackery in the name of Ayurveda
5. Vedic Mathematics
6. Hindutva philosophy and historical revisionism
7. Hindu godmen such as Satya Sai Baba
8. Hindu cults such as ISKCON
9. Hindu miracles and miracle hysteria such as
lactophilic Ganesh idols
10. Contradictions in the Bhagvad Gita.
11. Hindu pseudospiritualism
12. Unwaranted bloated depictions of the knowledge and
achievements of
our ancestors.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are u a fundamentalist hindu under disguise of an
agnostic?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are you implying that multiple hindu gods are
Scientist proven and accepted, but not Jesus as God?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are U saying that Bhudhists and Zorastrians and
Muslims and Sikhs and Jains etc have their beliefs
and >practices proven scientifically?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
I do not know; I think you are confusing Science with
Religion and trying to 'create confusion' within
Christian and other religions and covering up the
beliefs of your own religion.
You are mistaken. You are misrepresenting my views.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians
and >others are not secularist in the public domain.
Please prove that you are a tolerant and secular
individual. Give yourself a chance to redeem yourself
in this forum.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
I Nasci demands an apology from Santosh Helekar for
leading a 'tirade' against Christian beliefs only, in
the name of science; and for twisting assertions and
opinions to suit his mission of this 'tirade'.
I refuse to apologize for false charges leveled
against me. In all my posts I have only pointed out
the conflict between science/rationality and
supernatural religious explanations of the natural
world and natural phenomena, irrespective of whether
these beliefs come from Christianity, Hinduism or any
other religion.

I demand an apology in return for Nasci Caldeira's
recurrent obnoxious personal attacks against me. In
fact, one of the Goanet administrators has already
warned this guy privately about his personal invective
against me.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Don't spoil my sleep.
Please don't read my posts.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-16 01:02:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Your name suggests that you are of brahmin origin,
I have stated before and repeat again, I have no
caste. I have been accused of being reasonably nice
looking but that is usually from people who have
nothing else nice to say about me and are just being
polite. Also I am told looks are not important.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
now a christian;
I have never stated whether I am a theist or agnostic
or atheist. My ideas stand or fall on their own
merit. Most of the time they fall - on deaf ears.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
You have not answered my question: "Since when and
where did you learn that
Post by Nasci Caldeira
'pedeophile preists etc are chistian doctrine"?
I have never stated 'pedeophile preists etc are
chistian doctrine"?

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 02:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Santosh is my friend and colleague. I and a majority
of cyber-Goans,have much respect for him. However
let's analyze his post below: Is his beef (which we
have all read) against religion or is it against
an individual? And does he make that distinction is
his diatribe against the religious belief at issue?
Dear Gilbert,

Thanks for the customary kindness. But your charges
against me are false. You are misrepresenting my views
horribly. Have you read my posts on religious issues
and ever tried to understand them? With all
due respect, your gratuitous analysis of my response
to Pat de Sousa is way off the mark.

First, my beef is against people who try to impose
their religious views on others, who want special
exemptions for religious matters in
secular/pluralistic public forums such as this one,
and who brazenly exhibit their holier than thou
attitude (like you do in every single one of your
posts) in public.
But it is difficult to excuse a very intelligent
person who does not take the trouble to separate
them. >As mentioned in the past: On cyber-Goa: When
does an >intelligent expose end and a personal
activism >(sometimes ignorant oversight) begin?
What are you talking about here? What is the purpose
of this innuendo? The excerpt of mine to which you are
referring simply states the following:

1. Religious belief and piety does not necessarily
make a person good.
2. There are many among the religious and the pious
who have a sick and depraved mentality.
3. Religious issues should not receive immunity
against criticism in secular public forums.
4. Those who have a sick and depraved mentality (and I
now add those who are scamming or misinforming the
public) should not be allowed to hide behind religious
immunity.

Do you disagree with any of the above assertions? If
you do, please explain yourself. Cut out the rest of
the nonsense.
What I find disconcerting about Santosh's posts of
religion is: He care-freely walks away from Hinduism
by just stating that he no longer follows it. Then he
goes on to pontificate / bash very other religion
except about the Belief where he could make the
greatest impact, if he chooses to do so. (And I have
no doubt about his sincerity).
Nonsense! I have criticized Hinduism and all harmful
Hindu notions and practices on Goanet and Goa-Goans
for the last 10 years. I have rebutted the views of
Hindutva sympathizers whenever they have ventured in
these forums. If you care to go through the archives
you will find my criticisms against the following
presently relevant, harmful and anti-scientific
practices of Hinduism:

1. Casteism
2. Astrology
3. Vastushashtra
4. Quackery in the name of Ayurveda
5. Vedic Mathematics
6. Hindutva philosophy and historical revisionism
7. Hindu godmen such as Satya Sai Baba
8. Hindu cults such as ISKCON
9. Hindu miracles and miracle hysteria such as
lactophilic Ganesh idols
10. Contradictions in the Bhagvad Gita.
11. Hindu pseudospiritualism
12. Unwaranted bloated depictions of the knowledge and
achievements of
our ancestors.

Will you retract your above false charge against me
after reading through the archives?
I noticed how the topic of homosexuals in the
Catholic >faith suddenly ended, when the issues being
discussed >were defined or when the contradictions or
non-issues >exposed.
Gilbert, the problem with you is you give too much
credit to yourself, which frankly you don't deserve.
Honestly, your posts on the issue of homosexuals did
not make any sense at all. I did not respond to what
you wrote because I did not want to digress into
unrelated and confused matters that you raised. For
instance, you say that Fr. Ivo and Nasci Caldeira are
right about homosexuality, when they claim based on no
evidence that it is a sickness. And then you turn
around and say that I am also right about this issue
when I say and present a professional consensus
statement of the American Psychiatric Association that
homosexuality is not a sickness. Do you think this
type of confusion and obfuscation, coming from an
intelligent person, deserves a response?

Do you tell your patient that the oncologist who says
he has cancer is right, and that the other oncologist
who says he does not have cancer
is also right?

Cheers,

Santosh
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-16 16:20:37 UTC
Permalink
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:46:31 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Does your science only leads a tirade against
'Christian Beliefs' in the name and under cover of
Science?
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and
Muslim and Sikh and Bhudhist beliefs and practices? >
Science contradicts many of these beliefs. For
instance, Science contradicts Hindu cosmology,
astrology, ayurveda, reincarnation and miracles.
Nonsense! I have challenged and criticized all harmful
Hindu beliefs and practices. Please see my response to
Gilbert. Please go through the Goanet and Goa-Goans
archives to find my criticisms against the following
Post by Nasci Caldeira
And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians
and >others are not secularist in the public domain.
Please prove that you are a tolerant and secular
individual. Give yourself a chance to redeem yourself
in this forum.
Nasci's response:

Now that you have made your statements on all religions clear; I do hereby
exonerate you, Santosh from my charge that you were only attacking
Christianity, under the guise of science. You can have a good night's sleep
now.

Thanks, no more hostilities and let there be no more relgions bashing, from
anwhere!

We should only discuss what effects some religious practices have on other
religious or non religious communities. Would you agree with this?

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 18:02:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
We should only discuss what effects some religious
practices have on other religious or non religious
communities. Would you agree with this?
Dear Nasci,

Thanks for that concession. I am extremely happy and
relieved to be able to call you a gentleman who merely
has a difference of opinion with me on certain issues.
I retract all the accusations I made against you
because I recognize the difficulties of communicating
one's ideas clearly through this electronic medium. I
will chalk everything that has been said by you and me
up to a mutual misunderstanding on our part.

Regarding your question, I think I would agree with
you. But let me clarify as to what I would agree
about.

I have nothing against people's private belief or lack
of belief in God or in any religion or cult. My best
friend here in Houston is a devout Catholic. Many of
my closest friends and relatives are Hindu
fundamentalists. My best childhood friend in Goa is a
devout Catholic.

I have no interest in proactively converting people to
my view. I have very rarely, if ever, initiated an
argument on agnosticism or against anybody's private
beliefs in this forum or elsewhere. My posts have
always been in reaction to the following:

a) Prejudice based on religion, ideology, nationality,
etc.,
b) Erroneous assertions whether based on religion or
not,
c) Irrational or anti-scientific propaganda,
d) Claims that faith should supplant science in
explaining certain natural phenomena,
e) Claims that science has proven the notions of a
particular religion,
f) Claims that there is no conflict between science
and religion,
g) Holier than thou attitude of individuals whether on
the basis of religion or not,
h) Exhortations by individuals demanding immunity
against criticism dor religion or some other such
special status for religion,
i) Attempts by some to shut others up or expel them
because of their religious criticisms,
j) Repeated name-calling and abuse on account of
simple disagreements,
k) Unwarranted generalizations based on isolated or
infrequent occurrences.

And lastly I admit that there might have been
occasional slip-ups on my part.

Cheers,

Santosh
avertano teles
2005-05-12 02:06:57 UTC
Permalink
I have been reading a lot about the POPE, GAY PRIESTS, CAFETARIA CATHOLICS,
WOMEN AS PRIESTS, RECENTLY ABOUT THE SIGN OF PEACE IN THE CHURCH. and we
should expect more of such stuff on net. Why should catholic related issues
only be discussed ? Is our mentality confined only in questioning catholic
religion and its principles? Can someone enlighten us whether communities from
other religion discuss such issues the way we discuss pertaining to religion ?
Let's go in for a change of topic pleaaaaaaaaaseeeeeeeeee.

Sunil
Salus Correia
2005-05-12 15:31:58 UTC
Permalink
sunil/avertano wrote...

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:51:17 -0400
From: avertano teles <goanet at goanet.org>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet]CATHOLIC ???
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org

I have been reading a lot about the POPE, GAY PRIESTS, CAFETARIA CATHOLICS,
WOMEN AS PRIESTS, RECENTLY ABOUT THE SIGN OF PEACE IN THE CHURCH. and we
should expect more of such stuff on net. Why should catholic related issues
only be discussed ? Is our mentality confined only in questioning catholic
religion and its principles? Can someone enlighten us whether communities from
other religion discuss such issues the way we discuss pertaining to religion ?
Let's go in for a change of topic pleaaaaaaaaaseeeeeeeeee.

Sunil

______________________________________________________________________________

Come on Sunil or Avertano or whoever you really are! Be proactive and
write about something else. Start another thread, and go on from
there. But please do not tell people not to write on a particular
subject/topic. If someone has something to say, this is their forum to
do so. Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?

Cheers!

Salus
P D
2005-05-13 10:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Salus wrote: Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually
want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?

My reading of Sunil's (avertano teles) post was why do Goanetters
selectively pick on bashing Catholics?

Could it be because Catholics simply roll over and turn the other cheek or
do some revel in self-flagellation? Or, the threat of fatwa, etc.

Goanetters should learn to be charitable and sensitive -- treating ALL
religions with love and respect. Unbridled singling out of a single
religious entity is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While
encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration should establish limits on
religious bashing. Devout Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead
of being unwittingly held as a captive audience.

Pat de Sousa
Maryland, USA


.
Gabe Menezes
2005-05-13 16:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by P D
Salus wrote: Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually
want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?
My reading of Sunil's (avertano teles) post was why do Goanetters
selectively pick on bashing Catholics?
Could it be because Catholics simply roll over and turn the other cheek or
do some revel in self-flagellation? Or, the threat of fatwa, etc.
RESPONSE: There is a certain amount of lee way and a point of line
that, if crossed evokes outrage. I do hope the majority of Catholics
on this forum are stronger after the criticisms! After all religion is
a dogmatic belief and a faith which inspires. If one is sure of ones
faith then nothing but nothing will deter that person, come what
may.This I would add holds true for all religions. It is true in the
West, Christianity is open to criticism and religions such as Islam,
Sikhism and Hinduism would have their followers bearing down on any or
all persons taking the 'Mickey' . Having said this there have been
protests recently here in regards to shows such as Jerry Springer.



Cheers,
Gabe Menezes.
London England.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-13 16:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Unbridled singling out of a single religious entity
is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While
encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration
should establish limits on religious bashing. Devout
Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead of
being unwittingly held as a captive audience.
If the above is meant to suggest that all religions
should be treated equally as far as criticism is
concerned, I agree 100%. But if it is meant to give
religion in general, or any particular religion, a
free pass or some kind of special treatment, then I
have strong objections.

We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful
religious ideas and practices. We ought to recognize
that religion does not necessarily make a person good.
There are many among the pious and religious who have
a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should
never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious
immunity. There ought to be no limits on religious
bashing on Goanet.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-13 18:50:41 UTC
Permalink
We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful religious ideas and practices. We ought to
recognize that religion does not necessarily make a person good. There are many among the
pious and religious who have a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should
never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity. There ought to be no
limits on religious bashing on Goanet.
I agree with Santosh and would rephrase his last sentence to read "When warranted and fact-based,
there ought to be no limits on religious and ideological criticism on Goanet". In the 6 years I
have been on Goanet, I have read justified and fact-based criticisms of the Catholic religion
(pedophile priests, etc.). The only sick and depraved comments I have read have been made against
Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at least one comment I protested a month ago.

I also belong to another forum which frequently criticizes the govt. of Pakistan and the lack of
democracy there, some of it related to honor killings, child labor and issues with Islamic law. I
do not believe any religion or ideology should get a free pass. All public truths should be
tested in a public way. For devout Catholics and devout religious people there are other devout
discussion-lists devoted to their way of thinking, cloistered from the lens of public scrutiny. A
place where one can feel secure and comfortable in one's biases and beliefs. Goanet is not such a
place - it is the Anjuna flea market and not the Saligao Church.

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-14 03:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Pinto
I agree with Santosh and would rephrase his last
sentence to read "When warranted and fact-based,
there ought to be no limits on religious and
ideological criticism on Goanet".
George,

Thanks for rephrasing my last sentence. I hope it
reassures those who complain about religious
criticism.
Post by George Pinto
The only sick and depraved comments I have read have
been made against Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at
least one comment I protested a month ago.
There are no "devout" Hindus/Sikhs or fervent Indian
nationalists in this forum to complain about this. I
cannot imagine what would happen if this forum were
invaded by RSS types. It is unlikely that religious
chauvinists of any persuasion really mean to express
love and affection towards another religion.
Post by George Pinto
For devout Catholics and devout religious people
there are other devout discussion-lists devoted to
their way of thinking, cloistered from the lens of
public scrutiny. A place where one can feel secure
and comfortable in one's biases and beliefs. Goanet
is not such a place - it is the Anjuna flea market
and not the Saligao Church.
There have been many attempts over the years to make
Goanet such a place by petitioning the people in
charge to expel the religious critics.

My appeal to those who are interested in making this
happen is: Please collect signatures on an open
petition in this forum. Let us see how many devout
Goanetters want this to be a religion-friendly forum.
If you can get enough signatures then you can even
have Goanet patronized (matronized?) by a Hindu
goddess or saint.

Cheers,

Santosh
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-14 12:35:33 UTC
Permalink
Response to George down after.
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ???
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT)
there ought to be no limits on religious and ideological criticism on
Goanet". In the 6 years I
have been on Goanet, I have read justified and fact-based criticisms of the
Catholic religion
(pedophile priests, etc.). The only sick and depraved comments I have read
have been made against
Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at least one comment I protested a month ago.
Regards,
George
By George!!

Since when and where did you learn that "pedophile priests etc." are a part
of Catholic Doctrine??
Please let us know; is it Doctrine or human failing showing itself. Or may
be a failure on your part to analyse the truth! Sin is part of man! No one
denies that! The church doctrine tries to help man sin less or avoid it
altogether.

Kitea munttat re tum?? Christao oh heretic?

In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and Sikhs; it is their
religion, and shows in their religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their religion; or so they say. These
controversial practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-14 17:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial
practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Do the pious and religious people on Goanet agree with
the above assessment? Do they have anything to say to
Nasci Caldeira, here? I would love to see some of
their selflessness, tolerance, and love and affection
towards others in action.

Cheers,

Santosh
halur rasho
2005-05-14 17:55:32 UTC
Permalink
The comment below is why I believe secularism is
doomed in India and among Indians. When majoritarian
elements indulge in religion based bigotry, it can
perhaps be understood (but not excused) as a means to
power. When minorities, whom secularism is designed to
protect, indulge in blatant religious bigotry, whither
secularism ? Why indeed do we need it?
Post by Nasci Caldeira
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their
religion, and shows in their religious practices; in
these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These
controversial practices have not been denied by
them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
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George Pinto
2005-05-14 21:30:33 UTC
Permalink
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial practices have not been denied by them, as
religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
I know Nasci does not get it. But I wonder if the so-called devout Catholics on the forum
understand religious chauvinism and will speak out. What if Hindus and others on this forum
challenged Catholic religious pratices and beliefs? Is the Virgin birth, Trinity, Ascension into
heaven, etc. fair game for them too?

One fundamental problem underlying this religious chauvinism is some Goan Catholics have lorded it
over others (except for white-skins) over the years, feeling superior to Hindus in Goa because of
their "preferred association" with Portugese Catholic culture, or African Goans over black
Africans, or Pakistan Goans over local Muslims, etc. Their bluff has been called on this forum,
and like the Emperor, they wear no clothes. With humility, some have revised their way of
thinking, including critically assessing their Catholic faith and beliefs. They deserve credit.
Others who do not like to be checkmated, yell "Foul" not realizing the game has changed since a
generation or two ago when things were different "back home in the good old days". Equality &
justice are part of the rules of the game now.

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-15 02:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by halur rasho
The comment below is why I believe secularism is
doomed in India and among Indians.
Actually, these religious commentators are not proud
of their Indian heritage. Indeed, this one in
particular from down under abhors the entire ancient
Indian culture, including such simple, innocuous
things as our traditional garments. There may be
others who do not call themselves Indians, clinging to
all kinds of political and legal technicalities.

To be fair, some of this might be in reaction to the
atrocious excesses of the Hindu fundamentalists and
Indian nationalists who were in power until recently,
and to the military invasion of Goa in 1961. However,
it does seem as if there is a kernel of truth to the
notion that if some of these folks had their way, they
would, in a manner analogous to the RSS/VHP Hindu
fundamentalists, do away with secularism, and impose a
Christian theocracy, or a Western imperialist dominion
over India.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-15 18:35:02 UTC
Permalink
they would, in a manner analogous to the RSS/VHP Hindu fundamentalists, do away with secularism,
and impose a Christian theocracy, or a Western imperialist dominion over India.
One reason some of the openly devout types who wear religion on their sleeves have not engaged in
issues of justice and equality is due to an altar boy mentality that has carried over into
adulthood. If they are to challenge anything it is outside the church, preferably someone's else
religion. In life, they have protested little, are not used to questioning authority or initiating
change. Sadly, all the world for them, including Goanet, ought to be a catechism class and any
provocative or threatening view opposed.

Regards,
George
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-15 18:37:49 UTC
Permalink
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]RE: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
I know Nasci does not get it. But I wonder if the so-called devout
Catholics on the forum
understand religious chauvinism and will speak out. What if Hindus and
others on this forum
challenged Catholic religious pratices and beliefs? Is the Virgin birth,
Trinity, Ascension into
heaven, etc. fair game for them too?
Nasci:
This is precisely what I am complaining about! Santosh is, under cover of
Science, leading a tirade against christian beliefs and none against other
beliefs. And you Mr George Pinto is also doing the same; talking of
supposedly racist and religious chauvinism among Goan catholics but not
talking of inherent racism and casteism in the hindu religion and fold! How
funny can you be.

Your name suggests that you are of brahmin origin, now a christian; why do
you not use your status in society to tell your and my hindu brothers and
sisters that they should not spill their religious practices into the
street, and into laws that are hurtful to other communities and not
conducive to communal and religious harmony???
You have not answered my question: "Since when and where did you learn that
'pedeophile preists etc are chistian doctrine"?
Please assert that they are a demonstration of 'human failing' and not a
product of doctrine or normal practices of any religion. If you do not do
this minimum, then 'Shame on You' I say.
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
gilbertlaw
2005-05-15 18:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Goa-netters are sophisticated enough to enjoy a good sensible and educational post on what ever subject, especally if it is related to us and that includes our religion.

Personally what I find unfortunate and disheartening is that many posts on Goanet, and surprisingly from seasoned / educated posters, are full of contradictions and non-sense. There is little semantic definition and often distortions, of the issues being discussed. Many of these intelligent goa-netters love to argue, often for the sake of an argument. They often, 'put words in other mouths' not to mention misconstrue another's post, just so that they can make and then debate an issue.

Santosh is my friend and colleague. I and a majority of Goa-netters, have much respect for him. However let's analyze his post below: Is his beef (which we have all read) against religion or is it against an individual? And does he make that distinction is his diatribe against the religious belief at issue?

"Give religion in general, or any particular religion, a free pass" and that is same as those "with have a sick and depraved mentality, ... who should never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity"? ... There ought to be no limits on religious bashing on Goanet.

The above is seen among the best of us. Frankly I would expect the above from a new / novice poster who cannot draw the difference between the true faith and someone's interpretation of another person's practice of the faith. But it is difficult to excuse a very intelligent person who does not take the trouble to separate them. As mentioned in the past: On Goanet, When does an intelligent expose end and a personal activism (sometimes ignorant oversight) begin?

What I find disconcerting about Santosh's posts of religion is: He care-freely walks away from Hinduism by just stating that he no longer follows it. Then he goes on to pontificate / bash very other religion except about the Belief where he could make the greatest impact, if he chooses to do so. (And I have no doubt about his sincerity).

This is not dissimilar to Mario Govea lecturing to Goans how they should handle the issue of caste and marriage among Goans (which I fully agree). But then Mario tells us that all four of his kids are married and likely to marry Caucasians aka white (and a reference to race which was uncalled for).:=))

I noticed how the topic of homosexuals in the Catholic faith suddenly ended, when the issues being discussed were defined or when the contradictions or non-issues exposed. I was also amused on the dead-silence when I suggested to Goa-netters to practice cafeteria-rules in their home and tell us how ther 'personal reforms' have worked. Similarly there were no takers among Goan social activists on discussing the issue of divorce among Diaspora Goans. And this includes the divorcees on cyber Goa, who otherwise vocally persue their own agenda against the Catholic Chruch.

How we hate to talk about anything that is "too close for comfort!" :=))
Regards. GL


Santosh Helekar:
If the above is meant to suggest that all religions should be treated equally as far as criticism is concerned, I agree 100%. But if it is meant to give religion in general, or any particular religion, a free pass or some kind of special treatment, then I have strong objections.

We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful religious ideas and practices. We ought to recognize that religion does not necessarily make a person good.
There are many among the pious and religious who have a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity. There ought to be no limits on religious bashing on Goanet.


Pat:
Unbridled singling out of a single religious entity is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration
should establish limits on religious bashing. Devout Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead of being unwittingly held as a captive audience.
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-15 19:22:50 UTC
Permalink
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
Pedeophile priests and practice are not a Catholic or Christian Doctrine,
but definitely a human failure of these persons. hence religion is not at
fault here. Humans are weak and so all the more they need God. Sin is a
condition of 'MAN' and the Christian religion tries to help towards a
reduced sin and or sinless society.
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial
practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Santosh asks:
Do the pious and religious people on Goanet agree with
the above assessment? Do they have anything to say to
Nasci Caldeira, here? I would love to see some of
their selflessness, tolerance, and love and affection
towards others in action.
Nasci asks santosh:

What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
Does your science only leads a tirade against 'Christian Beliefs' in the
name and under cover of Science?
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and Muslim and Sikh and
Bhudhist beliefs and practices? Not a word from you!
Are u a fundamentalist hindu under disguise of an agnostic?
Are you implying that multiple hindu gods are Scientist proven and accepted,
but not Jesus as God?
Are U saying that Bhudhists and Zorastrians and Muslims and Sikhs and Jains
etc have their beliefs and practices proven scientifically?

I do not know; I think you are confusing Science with Religion and trying to
'create confusion' within Christian and other religions and covering up the
beliefs of your own religion. Looks like you are privately ashamed of you
own beliefs! And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians and others
are not secularist in the public domain.

All that I have been trying to say is that: The Hindu beliefs are spilling
out into the 'Streets' and into laws being made without consideration of
their impact on the 'cultural and religious freedom' of other groups. That
is why, all religious practices whether muslim, hindu or christian, sikh,
Bhudhist,Jain or Zoraster, should be strictly private and not be allowed to
spill over outside their home or place of religion! This includes wearing of
'religious clothes' and other external trapments, when in public jobs and
schools and universities etc. For the precise reason of avoiding 'conflict'
in religious sentiment and thereby ensuring a peaceful society.

All places immediately outside the 'home and home yard' and outside the
place of 'religious practice and the religion place yard', would be
considered public places, and out of reach for religious practices like
processions and noise emanating elements. There should be freedom for all to
practice their religion at home or in their place of worship. Freedom of
religion also includes the right to propogate religion in pre determined
areas of interaction between peoples, but in private and within enclosures,
approved by community and society.

The above is what is prevailing as of now in advanced and so called western
countries; true religious freedom without conflict. All communities are
free! Ban on cow slaughter and segregation in eating places and in places of
worship are not the norm, like in India, and are simply not tolerated. There
is lots of heresy and anti religious sentiment, but without violence; but
religion survives, all the same. Freedom to believe or not to believe. To be
and let be!

I Nasci demands an apology from Santosh Helekar for leading a 'tirade'
against Christian beliefs only, in the name of science; and for twisting
assertions and opinions to suit his mission of this 'tirade'.

I have nothing agianst your other scientific exploits and postings; let
science progress; but let theology and pious beliefs also prevail. If u
don't get sleep; than so be it. Don't spoil my sleep.

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 01:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
My assessment is that Nasci Caldeira is prejudiced
against Hinduism and Sikhism. He has also personalized
my general criticism of theistic religion, and become
erroneously convinced that I am attacking his
religion, in particular, when I am doing no such
thing.

Nasci Caldeira has now acquired the habit of being
personally abusive and obnoxious in response to simple
questions about religious beliefs, which were not even
directed at him.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Does your science only leads a tirade against
'Christian Beliefs' in the name and under cover of
Science?
Many beliefs of Christianity, Hinduism, Islam,
Buddhism, etc. contradict Science. Science is a
dispassionate endeavor, which is in material conflict
with religious explanations of the nature world.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and
Muslim and Sikh and Bhudhist beliefs and practices? >
Science contradicts many of these beliefs. For
instance, Science contradicts Hindu cosmology,
astrology, ayurveda, reincarnation and miracles.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Not a word from you!
Nonsense! I have challenged and criticized all harmful
Hindu beliefs and practices. Please see my response to
Gilbert. Please go through the Goanet and Goa-Goans
archives to find my criticisms against the following
Hindu practices:

1. Casteism
2. Astrology
3. Vastushashtra
4. Quackery in the name of Ayurveda
5. Vedic Mathematics
6. Hindutva philosophy and historical revisionism
7. Hindu godmen such as Satya Sai Baba
8. Hindu cults such as ISKCON
9. Hindu miracles and miracle hysteria such as
lactophilic Ganesh idols
10. Contradictions in the Bhagvad Gita.
11. Hindu pseudospiritualism
12. Unwaranted bloated depictions of the knowledge and
achievements of
our ancestors.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are u a fundamentalist hindu under disguise of an
agnostic?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are you implying that multiple hindu gods are
Scientist proven and accepted, but not Jesus as God?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are U saying that Bhudhists and Zorastrians and
Muslims and Sikhs and Jains etc have their beliefs
and >practices proven scientifically?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
I do not know; I think you are confusing Science with
Religion and trying to 'create confusion' within
Christian and other religions and covering up the
beliefs of your own religion.
You are mistaken. You are misrepresenting my views.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians
and >others are not secularist in the public domain.
Please prove that you are a tolerant and secular
individual. Give yourself a chance to redeem yourself
in this forum.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
I Nasci demands an apology from Santosh Helekar for
leading a 'tirade' against Christian beliefs only, in
the name of science; and for twisting assertions and
opinions to suit his mission of this 'tirade'.
I refuse to apologize for false charges leveled
against me. In all my posts I have only pointed out
the conflict between science/rationality and
supernatural religious explanations of the natural
world and natural phenomena, irrespective of whether
these beliefs come from Christianity, Hinduism or any
other religion.

I demand an apology in return for Nasci Caldeira's
recurrent obnoxious personal attacks against me. In
fact, one of the Goanet administrators has already
warned this guy privately about his personal invective
against me.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Don't spoil my sleep.
Please don't read my posts.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-16 01:02:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Your name suggests that you are of brahmin origin,
I have stated before and repeat again, I have no
caste. I have been accused of being reasonably nice
looking but that is usually from people who have
nothing else nice to say about me and are just being
polite. Also I am told looks are not important.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
now a christian;
I have never stated whether I am a theist or agnostic
or atheist. My ideas stand or fall on their own
merit. Most of the time they fall - on deaf ears.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
You have not answered my question: "Since when and
where did you learn that
Post by Nasci Caldeira
'pedeophile preists etc are chistian doctrine"?
I have never stated 'pedeophile preists etc are
chistian doctrine"?

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 02:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Santosh is my friend and colleague. I and a majority
of cyber-Goans,have much respect for him. However
let's analyze his post below: Is his beef (which we
have all read) against religion or is it against
an individual? And does he make that distinction is
his diatribe against the religious belief at issue?
Dear Gilbert,

Thanks for the customary kindness. But your charges
against me are false. You are misrepresenting my views
horribly. Have you read my posts on religious issues
and ever tried to understand them? With all
due respect, your gratuitous analysis of my response
to Pat de Sousa is way off the mark.

First, my beef is against people who try to impose
their religious views on others, who want special
exemptions for religious matters in
secular/pluralistic public forums such as this one,
and who brazenly exhibit their holier than thou
attitude (like you do in every single one of your
posts) in public.
But it is difficult to excuse a very intelligent
person who does not take the trouble to separate
them. >As mentioned in the past: On cyber-Goa: When
does an >intelligent expose end and a personal
activism >(sometimes ignorant oversight) begin?
What are you talking about here? What is the purpose
of this innuendo? The excerpt of mine to which you are
referring simply states the following:

1. Religious belief and piety does not necessarily
make a person good.
2. There are many among the religious and the pious
who have a sick and depraved mentality.
3. Religious issues should not receive immunity
against criticism in secular public forums.
4. Those who have a sick and depraved mentality (and I
now add those who are scamming or misinforming the
public) should not be allowed to hide behind religious
immunity.

Do you disagree with any of the above assertions? If
you do, please explain yourself. Cut out the rest of
the nonsense.
What I find disconcerting about Santosh's posts of
religion is: He care-freely walks away from Hinduism
by just stating that he no longer follows it. Then he
goes on to pontificate / bash very other religion
except about the Belief where he could make the
greatest impact, if he chooses to do so. (And I have
no doubt about his sincerity).
Nonsense! I have criticized Hinduism and all harmful
Hindu notions and practices on Goanet and Goa-Goans
for the last 10 years. I have rebutted the views of
Hindutva sympathizers whenever they have ventured in
these forums. If you care to go through the archives
you will find my criticisms against the following
presently relevant, harmful and anti-scientific
practices of Hinduism:

1. Casteism
2. Astrology
3. Vastushashtra
4. Quackery in the name of Ayurveda
5. Vedic Mathematics
6. Hindutva philosophy and historical revisionism
7. Hindu godmen such as Satya Sai Baba
8. Hindu cults such as ISKCON
9. Hindu miracles and miracle hysteria such as
lactophilic Ganesh idols
10. Contradictions in the Bhagvad Gita.
11. Hindu pseudospiritualism
12. Unwaranted bloated depictions of the knowledge and
achievements of
our ancestors.

Will you retract your above false charge against me
after reading through the archives?
I noticed how the topic of homosexuals in the
Catholic >faith suddenly ended, when the issues being
discussed >were defined or when the contradictions or
non-issues >exposed.
Gilbert, the problem with you is you give too much
credit to yourself, which frankly you don't deserve.
Honestly, your posts on the issue of homosexuals did
not make any sense at all. I did not respond to what
you wrote because I did not want to digress into
unrelated and confused matters that you raised. For
instance, you say that Fr. Ivo and Nasci Caldeira are
right about homosexuality, when they claim based on no
evidence that it is a sickness. And then you turn
around and say that I am also right about this issue
when I say and present a professional consensus
statement of the American Psychiatric Association that
homosexuality is not a sickness. Do you think this
type of confusion and obfuscation, coming from an
intelligent person, deserves a response?

Do you tell your patient that the oncologist who says
he has cancer is right, and that the other oncologist
who says he does not have cancer
is also right?

Cheers,

Santosh
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-16 16:20:37 UTC
Permalink
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:46:31 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Does your science only leads a tirade against
'Christian Beliefs' in the name and under cover of
Science?
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and
Muslim and Sikh and Bhudhist beliefs and practices? >
Science contradicts many of these beliefs. For
instance, Science contradicts Hindu cosmology,
astrology, ayurveda, reincarnation and miracles.
Nonsense! I have challenged and criticized all harmful
Hindu beliefs and practices. Please see my response to
Gilbert. Please go through the Goanet and Goa-Goans
archives to find my criticisms against the following
Post by Nasci Caldeira
And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians
and >others are not secularist in the public domain.
Please prove that you are a tolerant and secular
individual. Give yourself a chance to redeem yourself
in this forum.
Nasci's response:

Now that you have made your statements on all religions clear; I do hereby
exonerate you, Santosh from my charge that you were only attacking
Christianity, under the guise of science. You can have a good night's sleep
now.

Thanks, no more hostilities and let there be no more relgions bashing, from
anwhere!

We should only discuss what effects some religious practices have on other
religious or non religious communities. Would you agree with this?

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 18:02:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
We should only discuss what effects some religious
practices have on other religious or non religious
communities. Would you agree with this?
Dear Nasci,

Thanks for that concession. I am extremely happy and
relieved to be able to call you a gentleman who merely
has a difference of opinion with me on certain issues.
I retract all the accusations I made against you
because I recognize the difficulties of communicating
one's ideas clearly through this electronic medium. I
will chalk everything that has been said by you and me
up to a mutual misunderstanding on our part.

Regarding your question, I think I would agree with
you. But let me clarify as to what I would agree
about.

I have nothing against people's private belief or lack
of belief in God or in any religion or cult. My best
friend here in Houston is a devout Catholic. Many of
my closest friends and relatives are Hindu
fundamentalists. My best childhood friend in Goa is a
devout Catholic.

I have no interest in proactively converting people to
my view. I have very rarely, if ever, initiated an
argument on agnosticism or against anybody's private
beliefs in this forum or elsewhere. My posts have
always been in reaction to the following:

a) Prejudice based on religion, ideology, nationality,
etc.,
b) Erroneous assertions whether based on religion or
not,
c) Irrational or anti-scientific propaganda,
d) Claims that faith should supplant science in
explaining certain natural phenomena,
e) Claims that science has proven the notions of a
particular religion,
f) Claims that there is no conflict between science
and religion,
g) Holier than thou attitude of individuals whether on
the basis of religion or not,
h) Exhortations by individuals demanding immunity
against criticism dor religion or some other such
special status for religion,
i) Attempts by some to shut others up or expel them
because of their religious criticisms,
j) Repeated name-calling and abuse on account of
simple disagreements,
k) Unwarranted generalizations based on isolated or
infrequent occurrences.

And lastly I admit that there might have been
occasional slip-ups on my part.

Cheers,

Santosh
avertano teles
2005-05-12 02:06:57 UTC
Permalink
I have been reading a lot about the POPE, GAY PRIESTS, CAFETARIA CATHOLICS,
WOMEN AS PRIESTS, RECENTLY ABOUT THE SIGN OF PEACE IN THE CHURCH. and we
should expect more of such stuff on net. Why should catholic related issues
only be discussed ? Is our mentality confined only in questioning catholic
religion and its principles? Can someone enlighten us whether communities from
other religion discuss such issues the way we discuss pertaining to religion ?
Let's go in for a change of topic pleaaaaaaaaaseeeeeeeeee.

Sunil
Salus Correia
2005-05-12 15:31:58 UTC
Permalink
sunil/avertano wrote...

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:51:17 -0400
From: avertano teles <goanet at goanet.org>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet]CATHOLIC ???
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org

I have been reading a lot about the POPE, GAY PRIESTS, CAFETARIA CATHOLICS,
WOMEN AS PRIESTS, RECENTLY ABOUT THE SIGN OF PEACE IN THE CHURCH. and we
should expect more of such stuff on net. Why should catholic related issues
only be discussed ? Is our mentality confined only in questioning catholic
religion and its principles? Can someone enlighten us whether communities from
other religion discuss such issues the way we discuss pertaining to religion ?
Let's go in for a change of topic pleaaaaaaaaaseeeeeeeeee.

Sunil

______________________________________________________________________________

Come on Sunil or Avertano or whoever you really are! Be proactive and
write about something else. Start another thread, and go on from
there. But please do not tell people not to write on a particular
subject/topic. If someone has something to say, this is their forum to
do so. Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?

Cheers!

Salus
P D
2005-05-13 10:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Salus wrote: Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually
want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?

My reading of Sunil's (avertano teles) post was why do Goanetters
selectively pick on bashing Catholics?

Could it be because Catholics simply roll over and turn the other cheek or
do some revel in self-flagellation? Or, the threat of fatwa, etc.

Goanetters should learn to be charitable and sensitive -- treating ALL
religions with love and respect. Unbridled singling out of a single
religious entity is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While
encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration should establish limits on
religious bashing. Devout Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead
of being unwittingly held as a captive audience.

Pat de Sousa
Maryland, USA


.
Gabe Menezes
2005-05-13 16:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by P D
Salus wrote: Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually
want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?
My reading of Sunil's (avertano teles) post was why do Goanetters
selectively pick on bashing Catholics?
Could it be because Catholics simply roll over and turn the other cheek or
do some revel in self-flagellation? Or, the threat of fatwa, etc.
RESPONSE: There is a certain amount of lee way and a point of line
that, if crossed evokes outrage. I do hope the majority of Catholics
on this forum are stronger after the criticisms! After all religion is
a dogmatic belief and a faith which inspires. If one is sure of ones
faith then nothing but nothing will deter that person, come what
may.This I would add holds true for all religions. It is true in the
West, Christianity is open to criticism and religions such as Islam,
Sikhism and Hinduism would have their followers bearing down on any or
all persons taking the 'Mickey' . Having said this there have been
protests recently here in regards to shows such as Jerry Springer.



Cheers,
Gabe Menezes.
London England.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-13 16:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Unbridled singling out of a single religious entity
is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While
encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration
should establish limits on religious bashing. Devout
Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead of
being unwittingly held as a captive audience.
If the above is meant to suggest that all religions
should be treated equally as far as criticism is
concerned, I agree 100%. But if it is meant to give
religion in general, or any particular religion, a
free pass or some kind of special treatment, then I
have strong objections.

We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful
religious ideas and practices. We ought to recognize
that religion does not necessarily make a person good.
There are many among the pious and religious who have
a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should
never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious
immunity. There ought to be no limits on religious
bashing on Goanet.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-13 18:50:41 UTC
Permalink
We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful religious ideas and practices. We ought to
recognize that religion does not necessarily make a person good. There are many among the
pious and religious who have a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should
never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity. There ought to be no
limits on religious bashing on Goanet.
I agree with Santosh and would rephrase his last sentence to read "When warranted and fact-based,
there ought to be no limits on religious and ideological criticism on Goanet". In the 6 years I
have been on Goanet, I have read justified and fact-based criticisms of the Catholic religion
(pedophile priests, etc.). The only sick and depraved comments I have read have been made against
Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at least one comment I protested a month ago.

I also belong to another forum which frequently criticizes the govt. of Pakistan and the lack of
democracy there, some of it related to honor killings, child labor and issues with Islamic law. I
do not believe any religion or ideology should get a free pass. All public truths should be
tested in a public way. For devout Catholics and devout religious people there are other devout
discussion-lists devoted to their way of thinking, cloistered from the lens of public scrutiny. A
place where one can feel secure and comfortable in one's biases and beliefs. Goanet is not such a
place - it is the Anjuna flea market and not the Saligao Church.

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-14 03:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Pinto
I agree with Santosh and would rephrase his last
sentence to read "When warranted and fact-based,
there ought to be no limits on religious and
ideological criticism on Goanet".
George,

Thanks for rephrasing my last sentence. I hope it
reassures those who complain about religious
criticism.
Post by George Pinto
The only sick and depraved comments I have read have
been made against Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at
least one comment I protested a month ago.
There are no "devout" Hindus/Sikhs or fervent Indian
nationalists in this forum to complain about this. I
cannot imagine what would happen if this forum were
invaded by RSS types. It is unlikely that religious
chauvinists of any persuasion really mean to express
love and affection towards another religion.
Post by George Pinto
For devout Catholics and devout religious people
there are other devout discussion-lists devoted to
their way of thinking, cloistered from the lens of
public scrutiny. A place where one can feel secure
and comfortable in one's biases and beliefs. Goanet
is not such a place - it is the Anjuna flea market
and not the Saligao Church.
There have been many attempts over the years to make
Goanet such a place by petitioning the people in
charge to expel the religious critics.

My appeal to those who are interested in making this
happen is: Please collect signatures on an open
petition in this forum. Let us see how many devout
Goanetters want this to be a religion-friendly forum.
If you can get enough signatures then you can even
have Goanet patronized (matronized?) by a Hindu
goddess or saint.

Cheers,

Santosh
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-14 12:35:33 UTC
Permalink
Response to George down after.
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ???
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT)
there ought to be no limits on religious and ideological criticism on
Goanet". In the 6 years I
have been on Goanet, I have read justified and fact-based criticisms of the
Catholic religion
(pedophile priests, etc.). The only sick and depraved comments I have read
have been made against
Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at least one comment I protested a month ago.
Regards,
George
By George!!

Since when and where did you learn that "pedophile priests etc." are a part
of Catholic Doctrine??
Please let us know; is it Doctrine or human failing showing itself. Or may
be a failure on your part to analyse the truth! Sin is part of man! No one
denies that! The church doctrine tries to help man sin less or avoid it
altogether.

Kitea munttat re tum?? Christao oh heretic?

In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and Sikhs; it is their
religion, and shows in their religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their religion; or so they say. These
controversial practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-14 17:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial
practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Do the pious and religious people on Goanet agree with
the above assessment? Do they have anything to say to
Nasci Caldeira, here? I would love to see some of
their selflessness, tolerance, and love and affection
towards others in action.

Cheers,

Santosh
halur rasho
2005-05-14 17:55:32 UTC
Permalink
The comment below is why I believe secularism is
doomed in India and among Indians. When majoritarian
elements indulge in religion based bigotry, it can
perhaps be understood (but not excused) as a means to
power. When minorities, whom secularism is designed to
protect, indulge in blatant religious bigotry, whither
secularism ? Why indeed do we need it?
Post by Nasci Caldeira
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their
religion, and shows in their religious practices; in
these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These
controversial practices have not been denied by
them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
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George Pinto
2005-05-14 21:30:33 UTC
Permalink
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial practices have not been denied by them, as
religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
I know Nasci does not get it. But I wonder if the so-called devout Catholics on the forum
understand religious chauvinism and will speak out. What if Hindus and others on this forum
challenged Catholic religious pratices and beliefs? Is the Virgin birth, Trinity, Ascension into
heaven, etc. fair game for them too?

One fundamental problem underlying this religious chauvinism is some Goan Catholics have lorded it
over others (except for white-skins) over the years, feeling superior to Hindus in Goa because of
their "preferred association" with Portugese Catholic culture, or African Goans over black
Africans, or Pakistan Goans over local Muslims, etc. Their bluff has been called on this forum,
and like the Emperor, they wear no clothes. With humility, some have revised their way of
thinking, including critically assessing their Catholic faith and beliefs. They deserve credit.
Others who do not like to be checkmated, yell "Foul" not realizing the game has changed since a
generation or two ago when things were different "back home in the good old days". Equality &
justice are part of the rules of the game now.

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-15 02:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by halur rasho
The comment below is why I believe secularism is
doomed in India and among Indians.
Actually, these religious commentators are not proud
of their Indian heritage. Indeed, this one in
particular from down under abhors the entire ancient
Indian culture, including such simple, innocuous
things as our traditional garments. There may be
others who do not call themselves Indians, clinging to
all kinds of political and legal technicalities.

To be fair, some of this might be in reaction to the
atrocious excesses of the Hindu fundamentalists and
Indian nationalists who were in power until recently,
and to the military invasion of Goa in 1961. However,
it does seem as if there is a kernel of truth to the
notion that if some of these folks had their way, they
would, in a manner analogous to the RSS/VHP Hindu
fundamentalists, do away with secularism, and impose a
Christian theocracy, or a Western imperialist dominion
over India.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-15 18:35:02 UTC
Permalink
they would, in a manner analogous to the RSS/VHP Hindu fundamentalists, do away with secularism,
and impose a Christian theocracy, or a Western imperialist dominion over India.
One reason some of the openly devout types who wear religion on their sleeves have not engaged in
issues of justice and equality is due to an altar boy mentality that has carried over into
adulthood. If they are to challenge anything it is outside the church, preferably someone's else
religion. In life, they have protested little, are not used to questioning authority or initiating
change. Sadly, all the world for them, including Goanet, ought to be a catechism class and any
provocative or threatening view opposed.

Regards,
George
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-15 18:37:49 UTC
Permalink
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]RE: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
I know Nasci does not get it. But I wonder if the so-called devout
Catholics on the forum
understand religious chauvinism and will speak out. What if Hindus and
others on this forum
challenged Catholic religious pratices and beliefs? Is the Virgin birth,
Trinity, Ascension into
heaven, etc. fair game for them too?
Nasci:
This is precisely what I am complaining about! Santosh is, under cover of
Science, leading a tirade against christian beliefs and none against other
beliefs. And you Mr George Pinto is also doing the same; talking of
supposedly racist and religious chauvinism among Goan catholics but not
talking of inherent racism and casteism in the hindu religion and fold! How
funny can you be.

Your name suggests that you are of brahmin origin, now a christian; why do
you not use your status in society to tell your and my hindu brothers and
sisters that they should not spill their religious practices into the
street, and into laws that are hurtful to other communities and not
conducive to communal and religious harmony???
You have not answered my question: "Since when and where did you learn that
'pedeophile preists etc are chistian doctrine"?
Please assert that they are a demonstration of 'human failing' and not a
product of doctrine or normal practices of any religion. If you do not do
this minimum, then 'Shame on You' I say.
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
gilbertlaw
2005-05-15 18:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Goa-netters are sophisticated enough to enjoy a good sensible and educational post on what ever subject, especally if it is related to us and that includes our religion.

Personally what I find unfortunate and disheartening is that many posts on Goanet, and surprisingly from seasoned / educated posters, are full of contradictions and non-sense. There is little semantic definition and often distortions, of the issues being discussed. Many of these intelligent goa-netters love to argue, often for the sake of an argument. They often, 'put words in other mouths' not to mention misconstrue another's post, just so that they can make and then debate an issue.

Santosh is my friend and colleague. I and a majority of Goa-netters, have much respect for him. However let's analyze his post below: Is his beef (which we have all read) against religion or is it against an individual? And does he make that distinction is his diatribe against the religious belief at issue?

"Give religion in general, or any particular religion, a free pass" and that is same as those "with have a sick and depraved mentality, ... who should never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity"? ... There ought to be no limits on religious bashing on Goanet.

The above is seen among the best of us. Frankly I would expect the above from a new / novice poster who cannot draw the difference between the true faith and someone's interpretation of another person's practice of the faith. But it is difficult to excuse a very intelligent person who does not take the trouble to separate them. As mentioned in the past: On Goanet, When does an intelligent expose end and a personal activism (sometimes ignorant oversight) begin?

What I find disconcerting about Santosh's posts of religion is: He care-freely walks away from Hinduism by just stating that he no longer follows it. Then he goes on to pontificate / bash very other religion except about the Belief where he could make the greatest impact, if he chooses to do so. (And I have no doubt about his sincerity).

This is not dissimilar to Mario Govea lecturing to Goans how they should handle the issue of caste and marriage among Goans (which I fully agree). But then Mario tells us that all four of his kids are married and likely to marry Caucasians aka white (and a reference to race which was uncalled for).:=))

I noticed how the topic of homosexuals in the Catholic faith suddenly ended, when the issues being discussed were defined or when the contradictions or non-issues exposed. I was also amused on the dead-silence when I suggested to Goa-netters to practice cafeteria-rules in their home and tell us how ther 'personal reforms' have worked. Similarly there were no takers among Goan social activists on discussing the issue of divorce among Diaspora Goans. And this includes the divorcees on cyber Goa, who otherwise vocally persue their own agenda against the Catholic Chruch.

How we hate to talk about anything that is "too close for comfort!" :=))
Regards. GL


Santosh Helekar:
If the above is meant to suggest that all religions should be treated equally as far as criticism is concerned, I agree 100%. But if it is meant to give religion in general, or any particular religion, a free pass or some kind of special treatment, then I have strong objections.

We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful religious ideas and practices. We ought to recognize that religion does not necessarily make a person good.
There are many among the pious and religious who have a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity. There ought to be no limits on religious bashing on Goanet.


Pat:
Unbridled singling out of a single religious entity is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration
should establish limits on religious bashing. Devout Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead of being unwittingly held as a captive audience.
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-15 19:22:50 UTC
Permalink
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
Pedeophile priests and practice are not a Catholic or Christian Doctrine,
but definitely a human failure of these persons. hence religion is not at
fault here. Humans are weak and so all the more they need God. Sin is a
condition of 'MAN' and the Christian religion tries to help towards a
reduced sin and or sinless society.
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial
practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Santosh asks:
Do the pious and religious people on Goanet agree with
the above assessment? Do they have anything to say to
Nasci Caldeira, here? I would love to see some of
their selflessness, tolerance, and love and affection
towards others in action.
Nasci asks santosh:

What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
Does your science only leads a tirade against 'Christian Beliefs' in the
name and under cover of Science?
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and Muslim and Sikh and
Bhudhist beliefs and practices? Not a word from you!
Are u a fundamentalist hindu under disguise of an agnostic?
Are you implying that multiple hindu gods are Scientist proven and accepted,
but not Jesus as God?
Are U saying that Bhudhists and Zorastrians and Muslims and Sikhs and Jains
etc have their beliefs and practices proven scientifically?

I do not know; I think you are confusing Science with Religion and trying to
'create confusion' within Christian and other religions and covering up the
beliefs of your own religion. Looks like you are privately ashamed of you
own beliefs! And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians and others
are not secularist in the public domain.

All that I have been trying to say is that: The Hindu beliefs are spilling
out into the 'Streets' and into laws being made without consideration of
their impact on the 'cultural and religious freedom' of other groups. That
is why, all religious practices whether muslim, hindu or christian, sikh,
Bhudhist,Jain or Zoraster, should be strictly private and not be allowed to
spill over outside their home or place of religion! This includes wearing of
'religious clothes' and other external trapments, when in public jobs and
schools and universities etc. For the precise reason of avoiding 'conflict'
in religious sentiment and thereby ensuring a peaceful society.

All places immediately outside the 'home and home yard' and outside the
place of 'religious practice and the religion place yard', would be
considered public places, and out of reach for religious practices like
processions and noise emanating elements. There should be freedom for all to
practice their religion at home or in their place of worship. Freedom of
religion also includes the right to propogate religion in pre determined
areas of interaction between peoples, but in private and within enclosures,
approved by community and society.

The above is what is prevailing as of now in advanced and so called western
countries; true religious freedom without conflict. All communities are
free! Ban on cow slaughter and segregation in eating places and in places of
worship are not the norm, like in India, and are simply not tolerated. There
is lots of heresy and anti religious sentiment, but without violence; but
religion survives, all the same. Freedom to believe or not to believe. To be
and let be!

I Nasci demands an apology from Santosh Helekar for leading a 'tirade'
against Christian beliefs only, in the name of science; and for twisting
assertions and opinions to suit his mission of this 'tirade'.

I have nothing agianst your other scientific exploits and postings; let
science progress; but let theology and pious beliefs also prevail. If u
don't get sleep; than so be it. Don't spoil my sleep.

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 01:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
My assessment is that Nasci Caldeira is prejudiced
against Hinduism and Sikhism. He has also personalized
my general criticism of theistic religion, and become
erroneously convinced that I am attacking his
religion, in particular, when I am doing no such
thing.

Nasci Caldeira has now acquired the habit of being
personally abusive and obnoxious in response to simple
questions about religious beliefs, which were not even
directed at him.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Does your science only leads a tirade against
'Christian Beliefs' in the name and under cover of
Science?
Many beliefs of Christianity, Hinduism, Islam,
Buddhism, etc. contradict Science. Science is a
dispassionate endeavor, which is in material conflict
with religious explanations of the nature world.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and
Muslim and Sikh and Bhudhist beliefs and practices? >
Science contradicts many of these beliefs. For
instance, Science contradicts Hindu cosmology,
astrology, ayurveda, reincarnation and miracles.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Not a word from you!
Nonsense! I have challenged and criticized all harmful
Hindu beliefs and practices. Please see my response to
Gilbert. Please go through the Goanet and Goa-Goans
archives to find my criticisms against the following
Hindu practices:

1. Casteism
2. Astrology
3. Vastushashtra
4. Quackery in the name of Ayurveda
5. Vedic Mathematics
6. Hindutva philosophy and historical revisionism
7. Hindu godmen such as Satya Sai Baba
8. Hindu cults such as ISKCON
9. Hindu miracles and miracle hysteria such as
lactophilic Ganesh idols
10. Contradictions in the Bhagvad Gita.
11. Hindu pseudospiritualism
12. Unwaranted bloated depictions of the knowledge and
achievements of
our ancestors.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are u a fundamentalist hindu under disguise of an
agnostic?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are you implying that multiple hindu gods are
Scientist proven and accepted, but not Jesus as God?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are U saying that Bhudhists and Zorastrians and
Muslims and Sikhs and Jains etc have their beliefs
and >practices proven scientifically?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
I do not know; I think you are confusing Science with
Religion and trying to 'create confusion' within
Christian and other religions and covering up the
beliefs of your own religion.
You are mistaken. You are misrepresenting my views.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians
and >others are not secularist in the public domain.
Please prove that you are a tolerant and secular
individual. Give yourself a chance to redeem yourself
in this forum.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
I Nasci demands an apology from Santosh Helekar for
leading a 'tirade' against Christian beliefs only, in
the name of science; and for twisting assertions and
opinions to suit his mission of this 'tirade'.
I refuse to apologize for false charges leveled
against me. In all my posts I have only pointed out
the conflict between science/rationality and
supernatural religious explanations of the natural
world and natural phenomena, irrespective of whether
these beliefs come from Christianity, Hinduism or any
other religion.

I demand an apology in return for Nasci Caldeira's
recurrent obnoxious personal attacks against me. In
fact, one of the Goanet administrators has already
warned this guy privately about his personal invective
against me.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Don't spoil my sleep.
Please don't read my posts.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-16 01:02:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Your name suggests that you are of brahmin origin,
I have stated before and repeat again, I have no
caste. I have been accused of being reasonably nice
looking but that is usually from people who have
nothing else nice to say about me and are just being
polite. Also I am told looks are not important.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
now a christian;
I have never stated whether I am a theist or agnostic
or atheist. My ideas stand or fall on their own
merit. Most of the time they fall - on deaf ears.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
You have not answered my question: "Since when and
where did you learn that
Post by Nasci Caldeira
'pedeophile preists etc are chistian doctrine"?
I have never stated 'pedeophile preists etc are
chistian doctrine"?

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 02:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Santosh is my friend and colleague. I and a majority
of cyber-Goans,have much respect for him. However
let's analyze his post below: Is his beef (which we
have all read) against religion or is it against
an individual? And does he make that distinction is
his diatribe against the religious belief at issue?
Dear Gilbert,

Thanks for the customary kindness. But your charges
against me are false. You are misrepresenting my views
horribly. Have you read my posts on religious issues
and ever tried to understand them? With all
due respect, your gratuitous analysis of my response
to Pat de Sousa is way off the mark.

First, my beef is against people who try to impose
their religious views on others, who want special
exemptions for religious matters in
secular/pluralistic public forums such as this one,
and who brazenly exhibit their holier than thou
attitude (like you do in every single one of your
posts) in public.
But it is difficult to excuse a very intelligent
person who does not take the trouble to separate
them. >As mentioned in the past: On cyber-Goa: When
does an >intelligent expose end and a personal
activism >(sometimes ignorant oversight) begin?
What are you talking about here? What is the purpose
of this innuendo? The excerpt of mine to which you are
referring simply states the following:

1. Religious belief and piety does not necessarily
make a person good.
2. There are many among the religious and the pious
who have a sick and depraved mentality.
3. Religious issues should not receive immunity
against criticism in secular public forums.
4. Those who have a sick and depraved mentality (and I
now add those who are scamming or misinforming the
public) should not be allowed to hide behind religious
immunity.

Do you disagree with any of the above assertions? If
you do, please explain yourself. Cut out the rest of
the nonsense.
What I find disconcerting about Santosh's posts of
religion is: He care-freely walks away from Hinduism
by just stating that he no longer follows it. Then he
goes on to pontificate / bash very other religion
except about the Belief where he could make the
greatest impact, if he chooses to do so. (And I have
no doubt about his sincerity).
Nonsense! I have criticized Hinduism and all harmful
Hindu notions and practices on Goanet and Goa-Goans
for the last 10 years. I have rebutted the views of
Hindutva sympathizers whenever they have ventured in
these forums. If you care to go through the archives
you will find my criticisms against the following
presently relevant, harmful and anti-scientific
practices of Hinduism:

1. Casteism
2. Astrology
3. Vastushashtra
4. Quackery in the name of Ayurveda
5. Vedic Mathematics
6. Hindutva philosophy and historical revisionism
7. Hindu godmen such as Satya Sai Baba
8. Hindu cults such as ISKCON
9. Hindu miracles and miracle hysteria such as
lactophilic Ganesh idols
10. Contradictions in the Bhagvad Gita.
11. Hindu pseudospiritualism
12. Unwaranted bloated depictions of the knowledge and
achievements of
our ancestors.

Will you retract your above false charge against me
after reading through the archives?
I noticed how the topic of homosexuals in the
Catholic >faith suddenly ended, when the issues being
discussed >were defined or when the contradictions or
non-issues >exposed.
Gilbert, the problem with you is you give too much
credit to yourself, which frankly you don't deserve.
Honestly, your posts on the issue of homosexuals did
not make any sense at all. I did not respond to what
you wrote because I did not want to digress into
unrelated and confused matters that you raised. For
instance, you say that Fr. Ivo and Nasci Caldeira are
right about homosexuality, when they claim based on no
evidence that it is a sickness. And then you turn
around and say that I am also right about this issue
when I say and present a professional consensus
statement of the American Psychiatric Association that
homosexuality is not a sickness. Do you think this
type of confusion and obfuscation, coming from an
intelligent person, deserves a response?

Do you tell your patient that the oncologist who says
he has cancer is right, and that the other oncologist
who says he does not have cancer
is also right?

Cheers,

Santosh
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-16 16:20:37 UTC
Permalink
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:46:31 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Does your science only leads a tirade against
'Christian Beliefs' in the name and under cover of
Science?
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and
Muslim and Sikh and Bhudhist beliefs and practices? >
Science contradicts many of these beliefs. For
instance, Science contradicts Hindu cosmology,
astrology, ayurveda, reincarnation and miracles.
Nonsense! I have challenged and criticized all harmful
Hindu beliefs and practices. Please see my response to
Gilbert. Please go through the Goanet and Goa-Goans
archives to find my criticisms against the following
Post by Nasci Caldeira
And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians
and >others are not secularist in the public domain.
Please prove that you are a tolerant and secular
individual. Give yourself a chance to redeem yourself
in this forum.
Nasci's response:

Now that you have made your statements on all religions clear; I do hereby
exonerate you, Santosh from my charge that you were only attacking
Christianity, under the guise of science. You can have a good night's sleep
now.

Thanks, no more hostilities and let there be no more relgions bashing, from
anwhere!

We should only discuss what effects some religious practices have on other
religious or non religious communities. Would you agree with this?

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 18:02:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
We should only discuss what effects some religious
practices have on other religious or non religious
communities. Would you agree with this?
Dear Nasci,

Thanks for that concession. I am extremely happy and
relieved to be able to call you a gentleman who merely
has a difference of opinion with me on certain issues.
I retract all the accusations I made against you
because I recognize the difficulties of communicating
one's ideas clearly through this electronic medium. I
will chalk everything that has been said by you and me
up to a mutual misunderstanding on our part.

Regarding your question, I think I would agree with
you. But let me clarify as to what I would agree
about.

I have nothing against people's private belief or lack
of belief in God or in any religion or cult. My best
friend here in Houston is a devout Catholic. Many of
my closest friends and relatives are Hindu
fundamentalists. My best childhood friend in Goa is a
devout Catholic.

I have no interest in proactively converting people to
my view. I have very rarely, if ever, initiated an
argument on agnosticism or against anybody's private
beliefs in this forum or elsewhere. My posts have
always been in reaction to the following:

a) Prejudice based on religion, ideology, nationality,
etc.,
b) Erroneous assertions whether based on religion or
not,
c) Irrational or anti-scientific propaganda,
d) Claims that faith should supplant science in
explaining certain natural phenomena,
e) Claims that science has proven the notions of a
particular religion,
f) Claims that there is no conflict between science
and religion,
g) Holier than thou attitude of individuals whether on
the basis of religion or not,
h) Exhortations by individuals demanding immunity
against criticism dor religion or some other such
special status for religion,
i) Attempts by some to shut others up or expel them
because of their religious criticisms,
j) Repeated name-calling and abuse on account of
simple disagreements,
k) Unwarranted generalizations based on isolated or
infrequent occurrences.

And lastly I admit that there might have been
occasional slip-ups on my part.

Cheers,

Santosh
avertano teles
2005-05-12 02:06:57 UTC
Permalink
I have been reading a lot about the POPE, GAY PRIESTS, CAFETARIA CATHOLICS,
WOMEN AS PRIESTS, RECENTLY ABOUT THE SIGN OF PEACE IN THE CHURCH. and we
should expect more of such stuff on net. Why should catholic related issues
only be discussed ? Is our mentality confined only in questioning catholic
religion and its principles? Can someone enlighten us whether communities from
other religion discuss such issues the way we discuss pertaining to religion ?
Let's go in for a change of topic pleaaaaaaaaaseeeeeeeeee.

Sunil
Salus Correia
2005-05-12 15:31:58 UTC
Permalink
sunil/avertano wrote...

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:51:17 -0400
From: avertano teles <goanet at goanet.org>
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet]CATHOLIC ???
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org

I have been reading a lot about the POPE, GAY PRIESTS, CAFETARIA CATHOLICS,
WOMEN AS PRIESTS, RECENTLY ABOUT THE SIGN OF PEACE IN THE CHURCH. and we
should expect more of such stuff on net. Why should catholic related issues
only be discussed ? Is our mentality confined only in questioning catholic
religion and its principles? Can someone enlighten us whether communities from
other religion discuss such issues the way we discuss pertaining to religion ?
Let's go in for a change of topic pleaaaaaaaaaseeeeeeeeee.

Sunil

______________________________________________________________________________

Come on Sunil or Avertano or whoever you really are! Be proactive and
write about something else. Start another thread, and go on from
there. But please do not tell people not to write on a particular
subject/topic. If someone has something to say, this is their forum to
do so. Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?

Cheers!

Salus
P D
2005-05-13 10:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Salus wrote: Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually
want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?

My reading of Sunil's (avertano teles) post was why do Goanetters
selectively pick on bashing Catholics?

Could it be because Catholics simply roll over and turn the other cheek or
do some revel in self-flagellation? Or, the threat of fatwa, etc.

Goanetters should learn to be charitable and sensitive -- treating ALL
religions with love and respect. Unbridled singling out of a single
religious entity is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While
encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration should establish limits on
religious bashing. Devout Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead
of being unwittingly held as a captive audience.

Pat de Sousa
Maryland, USA


.
Gabe Menezes
2005-05-13 16:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by P D
Salus wrote: Have you given a thought that there may be many who actually
want
to read on subjects pertaining to religion?
My reading of Sunil's (avertano teles) post was why do Goanetters
selectively pick on bashing Catholics?
Could it be because Catholics simply roll over and turn the other cheek or
do some revel in self-flagellation? Or, the threat of fatwa, etc.
RESPONSE: There is a certain amount of lee way and a point of line
that, if crossed evokes outrage. I do hope the majority of Catholics
on this forum are stronger after the criticisms! After all religion is
a dogmatic belief and a faith which inspires. If one is sure of ones
faith then nothing but nothing will deter that person, come what
may.This I would add holds true for all religions. It is true in the
West, Christianity is open to criticism and religions such as Islam,
Sikhism and Hinduism would have their followers bearing down on any or
all persons taking the 'Mickey' . Having said this there have been
protests recently here in regards to shows such as Jerry Springer.



Cheers,
Gabe Menezes.
London England.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-13 16:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Unbridled singling out of a single religious entity
is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While
encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration
should establish limits on religious bashing. Devout
Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead of
being unwittingly held as a captive audience.
If the above is meant to suggest that all religions
should be treated equally as far as criticism is
concerned, I agree 100%. But if it is meant to give
religion in general, or any particular religion, a
free pass or some kind of special treatment, then I
have strong objections.

We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful
religious ideas and practices. We ought to recognize
that religion does not necessarily make a person good.
There are many among the pious and religious who have
a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should
never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious
immunity. There ought to be no limits on religious
bashing on Goanet.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-13 18:50:41 UTC
Permalink
We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful religious ideas and practices. We ought to
recognize that religion does not necessarily make a person good. There are many among the
pious and religious who have a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should
never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity. There ought to be no
limits on religious bashing on Goanet.
I agree with Santosh and would rephrase his last sentence to read "When warranted and fact-based,
there ought to be no limits on religious and ideological criticism on Goanet". In the 6 years I
have been on Goanet, I have read justified and fact-based criticisms of the Catholic religion
(pedophile priests, etc.). The only sick and depraved comments I have read have been made against
Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at least one comment I protested a month ago.

I also belong to another forum which frequently criticizes the govt. of Pakistan and the lack of
democracy there, some of it related to honor killings, child labor and issues with Islamic law. I
do not believe any religion or ideology should get a free pass. All public truths should be
tested in a public way. For devout Catholics and devout religious people there are other devout
discussion-lists devoted to their way of thinking, cloistered from the lens of public scrutiny. A
place where one can feel secure and comfortable in one's biases and beliefs. Goanet is not such a
place - it is the Anjuna flea market and not the Saligao Church.

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-14 03:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Pinto
I agree with Santosh and would rephrase his last
sentence to read "When warranted and fact-based,
there ought to be no limits on religious and
ideological criticism on Goanet".
George,

Thanks for rephrasing my last sentence. I hope it
reassures those who complain about religious
criticism.
Post by George Pinto
The only sick and depraved comments I have read have
been made against Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at
least one comment I protested a month ago.
There are no "devout" Hindus/Sikhs or fervent Indian
nationalists in this forum to complain about this. I
cannot imagine what would happen if this forum were
invaded by RSS types. It is unlikely that religious
chauvinists of any persuasion really mean to express
love and affection towards another religion.
Post by George Pinto
For devout Catholics and devout religious people
there are other devout discussion-lists devoted to
their way of thinking, cloistered from the lens of
public scrutiny. A place where one can feel secure
and comfortable in one's biases and beliefs. Goanet
is not such a place - it is the Anjuna flea market
and not the Saligao Church.
There have been many attempts over the years to make
Goanet such a place by petitioning the people in
charge to expel the religious critics.

My appeal to those who are interested in making this
happen is: Please collect signatures on an open
petition in this forum. Let us see how many devout
Goanetters want this to be a religion-friendly forum.
If you can get enough signatures then you can even
have Goanet patronized (matronized?) by a Hindu
goddess or saint.

Cheers,

Santosh
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-14 12:35:33 UTC
Permalink
Response to George down after.
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ???
Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT)
there ought to be no limits on religious and ideological criticism on
Goanet". In the 6 years I
have been on Goanet, I have read justified and fact-based criticisms of the
Catholic religion
(pedophile priests, etc.). The only sick and depraved comments I have read
have been made against
Hindus, Indians, and Sikhs - at least one comment I protested a month ago.
Regards,
George
By George!!

Since when and where did you learn that "pedophile priests etc." are a part
of Catholic Doctrine??
Please let us know; is it Doctrine or human failing showing itself. Or may
be a failure on your part to analyse the truth! Sin is part of man! No one
denies that! The church doctrine tries to help man sin less or avoid it
altogether.

Kitea munttat re tum?? Christao oh heretic?

In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and Sikhs; it is their
religion, and shows in their religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their religion; or so they say. These
controversial practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-14 17:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial
practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Do the pious and religious people on Goanet agree with
the above assessment? Do they have anything to say to
Nasci Caldeira, here? I would love to see some of
their selflessness, tolerance, and love and affection
towards others in action.

Cheers,

Santosh
halur rasho
2005-05-14 17:55:32 UTC
Permalink
The comment below is why I believe secularism is
doomed in India and among Indians. When majoritarian
elements indulge in religion based bigotry, it can
perhaps be understood (but not excused) as a means to
power. When minorities, whom secularism is designed to
protect, indulge in blatant religious bigotry, whither
secularism ? Why indeed do we need it?
Post by Nasci Caldeira
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their
religion, and shows in their religious practices; in
these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These
controversial practices have not been denied by
them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
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George Pinto
2005-05-14 21:30:33 UTC
Permalink
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial practices have not been denied by them, as
religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne
I know Nasci does not get it. But I wonder if the so-called devout Catholics on the forum
understand religious chauvinism and will speak out. What if Hindus and others on this forum
challenged Catholic religious pratices and beliefs? Is the Virgin birth, Trinity, Ascension into
heaven, etc. fair game for them too?

One fundamental problem underlying this religious chauvinism is some Goan Catholics have lorded it
over others (except for white-skins) over the years, feeling superior to Hindus in Goa because of
their "preferred association" with Portugese Catholic culture, or African Goans over black
Africans, or Pakistan Goans over local Muslims, etc. Their bluff has been called on this forum,
and like the Emperor, they wear no clothes. With humility, some have revised their way of
thinking, including critically assessing their Catholic faith and beliefs. They deserve credit.
Others who do not like to be checkmated, yell "Foul" not realizing the game has changed since a
generation or two ago when things were different "back home in the good old days". Equality &
justice are part of the rules of the game now.

Regards,
George
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-15 02:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by halur rasho
The comment below is why I believe secularism is
doomed in India and among Indians.
Actually, these religious commentators are not proud
of their Indian heritage. Indeed, this one in
particular from down under abhors the entire ancient
Indian culture, including such simple, innocuous
things as our traditional garments. There may be
others who do not call themselves Indians, clinging to
all kinds of political and legal technicalities.

To be fair, some of this might be in reaction to the
atrocious excesses of the Hindu fundamentalists and
Indian nationalists who were in power until recently,
and to the military invasion of Goa in 1961. However,
it does seem as if there is a kernel of truth to the
notion that if some of these folks had their way, they
would, in a manner analogous to the RSS/VHP Hindu
fundamentalists, do away with secularism, and impose a
Christian theocracy, or a Western imperialist dominion
over India.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-15 18:35:02 UTC
Permalink
they would, in a manner analogous to the RSS/VHP Hindu fundamentalists, do away with secularism,
and impose a Christian theocracy, or a Western imperialist dominion over India.
One reason some of the openly devout types who wear religion on their sleeves have not engaged in
issues of justice and equality is due to an altar boy mentality that has carried over into
adulthood. If they are to challenge anything it is outside the church, preferably someone's else
religion. In life, they have protested little, are not used to questioning authority or initiating
change. Sadly, all the world for them, including Goanet, ought to be a catechism class and any
provocative or threatening view opposed.

Regards,
George
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-15 18:37:49 UTC
Permalink
From: George Pinto <georgejpinto at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]RE: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
I know Nasci does not get it. But I wonder if the so-called devout
Catholics on the forum
understand religious chauvinism and will speak out. What if Hindus and
others on this forum
challenged Catholic religious pratices and beliefs? Is the Virgin birth,
Trinity, Ascension into
heaven, etc. fair game for them too?
Nasci:
This is precisely what I am complaining about! Santosh is, under cover of
Science, leading a tirade against christian beliefs and none against other
beliefs. And you Mr George Pinto is also doing the same; talking of
supposedly racist and religious chauvinism among Goan catholics but not
talking of inherent racism and casteism in the hindu religion and fold! How
funny can you be.

Your name suggests that you are of brahmin origin, now a christian; why do
you not use your status in society to tell your and my hindu brothers and
sisters that they should not spill their religious practices into the
street, and into laws that are hurtful to other communities and not
conducive to communal and religious harmony???
You have not answered my question: "Since when and where did you learn that
'pedeophile preists etc are chistian doctrine"?
Please assert that they are a demonstration of 'human failing' and not a
product of doctrine or normal practices of any religion. If you do not do
this minimum, then 'Shame on You' I say.
Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
gilbertlaw
2005-05-15 18:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Goa-netters are sophisticated enough to enjoy a good sensible and educational post on what ever subject, especally if it is related to us and that includes our religion.

Personally what I find unfortunate and disheartening is that many posts on Goanet, and surprisingly from seasoned / educated posters, are full of contradictions and non-sense. There is little semantic definition and often distortions, of the issues being discussed. Many of these intelligent goa-netters love to argue, often for the sake of an argument. They often, 'put words in other mouths' not to mention misconstrue another's post, just so that they can make and then debate an issue.

Santosh is my friend and colleague. I and a majority of Goa-netters, have much respect for him. However let's analyze his post below: Is his beef (which we have all read) against religion or is it against an individual? And does he make that distinction is his diatribe against the religious belief at issue?

"Give religion in general, or any particular religion, a free pass" and that is same as those "with have a sick and depraved mentality, ... who should never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity"? ... There ought to be no limits on religious bashing on Goanet.

The above is seen among the best of us. Frankly I would expect the above from a new / novice poster who cannot draw the difference between the true faith and someone's interpretation of another person's practice of the faith. But it is difficult to excuse a very intelligent person who does not take the trouble to separate them. As mentioned in the past: On Goanet, When does an intelligent expose end and a personal activism (sometimes ignorant oversight) begin?

What I find disconcerting about Santosh's posts of religion is: He care-freely walks away from Hinduism by just stating that he no longer follows it. Then he goes on to pontificate / bash very other religion except about the Belief where he could make the greatest impact, if he chooses to do so. (And I have no doubt about his sincerity).

This is not dissimilar to Mario Govea lecturing to Goans how they should handle the issue of caste and marriage among Goans (which I fully agree). But then Mario tells us that all four of his kids are married and likely to marry Caucasians aka white (and a reference to race which was uncalled for).:=))

I noticed how the topic of homosexuals in the Catholic faith suddenly ended, when the issues being discussed were defined or when the contradictions or non-issues exposed. I was also amused on the dead-silence when I suggested to Goa-netters to practice cafeteria-rules in their home and tell us how ther 'personal reforms' have worked. Similarly there were no takers among Goan social activists on discussing the issue of divorce among Diaspora Goans. And this includes the divorcees on cyber Goa, who otherwise vocally persue their own agenda against the Catholic Chruch.

How we hate to talk about anything that is "too close for comfort!" :=))
Regards. GL


Santosh Helekar:
If the above is meant to suggest that all religions should be treated equally as far as criticism is concerned, I agree 100%. But if it is meant to give religion in general, or any particular religion, a free pass or some kind of special treatment, then I have strong objections.

We ought to shine a bright light on all harmful religious ideas and practices. We ought to recognize that religion does not necessarily make a person good.
There are many among the pious and religious who have a sick and depraved mentality, as well. They should never be allowed to hide behind any kind of religious immunity. There ought to be no limits on religious bashing on Goanet.


Pat:
Unbridled singling out of a single religious entity is indicative of a sick and depraved mentality. While encouraging free speech, Goanet Administration
should establish limits on religious bashing. Devout Netters will otherwise be forced to quit instead of being unwittingly held as a captive audience.
Nasci Caldeira
2005-05-15 19:22:50 UTC
Permalink
From: Santosh Helekar <chimbelcho at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: [Goanet]Re: CATHOLIC ??? George!
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
Pedeophile priests and practice are not a Catholic or Christian Doctrine,
but definitely a human failure of these persons. hence religion is not at
fault here. Humans are weak and so all the more they need God. Sin is a
condition of 'MAN' and the Christian religion tries to help towards a
reduced sin and or sinless society.
In coments made about Hindus, and or Muslims and
Sikhs; it is their religion, and shows in their
religious practices; in these cases it is not
their human failure; but a practice of their
religion; or so they say. These controversial
practices have not been denied by them, as religious
practices, ever. That's the difference!
Santosh asks:
Do the pious and religious people on Goanet agree with
the above assessment? Do they have anything to say to
Nasci Caldeira, here? I would love to see some of
their selflessness, tolerance, and love and affection
towards others in action.
Nasci asks santosh:

What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
Does your science only leads a tirade against 'Christian Beliefs' in the
name and under cover of Science?
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and Muslim and Sikh and
Bhudhist beliefs and practices? Not a word from you!
Are u a fundamentalist hindu under disguise of an agnostic?
Are you implying that multiple hindu gods are Scientist proven and accepted,
but not Jesus as God?
Are U saying that Bhudhists and Zorastrians and Muslims and Sikhs and Jains
etc have their beliefs and practices proven scientifically?

I do not know; I think you are confusing Science with Religion and trying to
'create confusion' within Christian and other religions and covering up the
beliefs of your own religion. Looks like you are privately ashamed of you
own beliefs! And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians and others
are not secularist in the public domain.

All that I have been trying to say is that: The Hindu beliefs are spilling
out into the 'Streets' and into laws being made without consideration of
their impact on the 'cultural and religious freedom' of other groups. That
is why, all religious practices whether muslim, hindu or christian, sikh,
Bhudhist,Jain or Zoraster, should be strictly private and not be allowed to
spill over outside their home or place of religion! This includes wearing of
'religious clothes' and other external trapments, when in public jobs and
schools and universities etc. For the precise reason of avoiding 'conflict'
in religious sentiment and thereby ensuring a peaceful society.

All places immediately outside the 'home and home yard' and outside the
place of 'religious practice and the religion place yard', would be
considered public places, and out of reach for religious practices like
processions and noise emanating elements. There should be freedom for all to
practice their religion at home or in their place of worship. Freedom of
religion also includes the right to propogate religion in pre determined
areas of interaction between peoples, but in private and within enclosures,
approved by community and society.

The above is what is prevailing as of now in advanced and so called western
countries; true religious freedom without conflict. All communities are
free! Ban on cow slaughter and segregation in eating places and in places of
worship are not the norm, like in India, and are simply not tolerated. There
is lots of heresy and anti religious sentiment, but without violence; but
religion survives, all the same. Freedom to believe or not to believe. To be
and let be!

I Nasci demands an apology from Santosh Helekar for leading a 'tirade'
against Christian beliefs only, in the name of science; and for twisting
assertions and opinions to suit his mission of this 'tirade'.

I have nothing agianst your other scientific exploits and postings; let
science progress; but let theology and pious beliefs also prevail. If u
don't get sleep; than so be it. Don't spoil my sleep.

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Santosh Helekar
2005-05-16 01:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What is your assessment? dear Santosh.
My assessment is that Nasci Caldeira is prejudiced
against Hinduism and Sikhism. He has also personalized
my general criticism of theistic religion, and become
erroneously convinced that I am attacking his
religion, in particular, when I am doing no such
thing.

Nasci Caldeira has now acquired the habit of being
personally abusive and obnoxious in response to simple
questions about religious beliefs, which were not even
directed at him.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Does your science only leads a tirade against
'Christian Beliefs' in the name and under cover of
Science?
Many beliefs of Christianity, Hinduism, Islam,
Buddhism, etc. contradict Science. Science is a
dispassionate endeavor, which is in material conflict
with religious explanations of the nature world.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
What does your Science have to say about Hindu and
Muslim and Sikh and Bhudhist beliefs and practices? >
Science contradicts many of these beliefs. For
instance, Science contradicts Hindu cosmology,
astrology, ayurveda, reincarnation and miracles.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Not a word from you!
Nonsense! I have challenged and criticized all harmful
Hindu beliefs and practices. Please see my response to
Gilbert. Please go through the Goanet and Goa-Goans
archives to find my criticisms against the following
Hindu practices:

1. Casteism
2. Astrology
3. Vastushashtra
4. Quackery in the name of Ayurveda
5. Vedic Mathematics
6. Hindutva philosophy and historical revisionism
7. Hindu godmen such as Satya Sai Baba
8. Hindu cults such as ISKCON
9. Hindu miracles and miracle hysteria such as
lactophilic Ganesh idols
10. Contradictions in the Bhagvad Gita.
11. Hindu pseudospiritualism
12. Unwaranted bloated depictions of the knowledge and
achievements of
our ancestors.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are u a fundamentalist hindu under disguise of an
agnostic?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are you implying that multiple hindu gods are
Scientist proven and accepted, but not Jesus as God?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Are U saying that Bhudhists and Zorastrians and
Muslims and Sikhs and Jains etc have their beliefs
and >practices proven scientifically?
No.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
I do not know; I think you are confusing Science with
Religion and trying to 'create confusion' within
Christian and other religions and covering up the
beliefs of your own religion.
You are mistaken. You are misrepresenting my views.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
And then you have the 'gall' to say that Chistians
and >others are not secularist in the public domain.
Please prove that you are a tolerant and secular
individual. Give yourself a chance to redeem yourself
in this forum.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
I Nasci demands an apology from Santosh Helekar for
leading a 'tirade' against Christian beliefs only, in
the name of science; and for twisting assertions and
opinions to suit his mission of this 'tirade'.
I refuse to apologize for false charges leveled
against me. In all my posts I have only pointed out
the conflict between science/rationality and
supernatural religious explanations of the natural
world and natural phenomena, irrespective of whether
these beliefs come from Christianity, Hinduism or any
other religion.

I demand an apology in return for Nasci Caldeira's
recurrent obnoxious personal attacks against me. In
fact, one of the Goanet administrators has already
warned this guy privately about his personal invective
against me.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Don't spoil my sleep.
Please don't read my posts.

Cheers,

Santosh
George Pinto
2005-05-16 01:02:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Your name suggests that you are of brahmin origin,
I have stated before and repeat again, I have no
caste. I have been accused of being reasonably nice
looking but that is usually from people who have
nothing else nice to say about me and are just being
polite. Also I am told looks are not important.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
now a christian;
I have never stated whether I am a theist or agnostic
or atheist. My ideas stand or fall on their own
merit. Most of the time they fall - on deaf ears.
Post by Nasci Caldeira
You have not answered my question: "Since when and
where did you learn that
Post by Nasci Caldeira
'pedeophile preists etc are chistian doctrine"?
I have never stated 'pedeophile preists etc are
chistian doctrine"?

Regards,
George

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