Discussion:
Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning
(too old to reply)
gerry ferns
2005-06-23 14:55:57 UTC
Permalink
"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas,
which are discernible to my limited and UNTUTORED
perception:
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in
Goa.
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Nasci Caldeira
2005-06-24 05:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Hello Gerry,

Your attack on Phillip Thomas' above mentioned article, is unwarranted. I
beg to differ completely on your so called "Fallacies List".
You have only made (false) statements and you presume that goanetters are
gullible, to take your statements as fact! Well I am not; and please read me
further down.
From: gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
Nasci:
For 'efficiency and streamlining operations', they are incompatible and
should be exclusive; only in the emergency of war, all such facilities will
come under the control of the war machine.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
Nasci: It is correct that these be seperate!
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
Nasci:
The Mopa Aoirport will certainly eat into the tourism pie of Goa; definitely
so!
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
Nasci:
It will not be against the interest of India, but will certainly be
completely against the interest of South Goa, Middle Goa and Eastern Goa,
that will remain underdeveloped!
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in Goa.
Nasci:
They will certainly not be able to respond and will in time 'go bankrupt';
and many of the residents of South Goa will loose jobs and business a
plenty. It can and will soon become a 'backward area; Such will be impact of
Mopa on South Goa!
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
Nasci:
No! In the case of Mopa, its the residents of North Goa alone who will have
good access and priveledge; where as in the case of Dabolim, ALL the people
of Goa, North, South, and East, already have equal access and priveledge
etc. Besides, the Dabolim Airport location etc has already made it a
'tremendous airport! All the infrastucture servicing the airport is close at
hand; the roads etc are already there; and the Terminal and other
infrastructure facilities can be further beefed up, at a fraction of the
cost involved with Mopa! Only the 'Naval Air' has to move either to Sea Bird
or to Mopa; Let the Navy build and use Mopa airport if at all!
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
Nasci:
The Tourism Dept. should never acquire land etc. in North Goa/ Pernem. Let
the Navy do the acquisition for the Mopa Airport, for their use, if at all!
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
Nasci:
What rubbish are you saying? We are talking of all Goans; it's you who is
talking only for Pernem residents! You seem to have a vested interest in
land in North Goa! Is this true?
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
Nasci:
These are your words! If you are 'Youth' than you are mistaken youth! Open
your eyes, and see how big the world is.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.
Nasci:
This is true! If funds, private or Govt. are diverted to Mopa; then Dabolim
will be neglected and the "Youth of Goa'' who you seem to be vouching for,
will be the worst sufferers!
Sell the Dabolim Airport to the private sector and build it up and let the
Naval Air acquire lane at Mopa and develop the same' if they so need it.
COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nasci:
Gerry, I hate to say this! But it is you who is trying to pass off 'Urine'
as wine!
Think well and truly for all of Goa and support the efforts of PhillipThomas
and myself.
Phillip Thomas is thinking of all of Goa and all of India too; very much
unlike you.

Cheers!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Philip Thomas
2005-06-24 07:55:42 UTC
Permalink
<"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas, which are discernible
to my limited and UNTUTORED perception:...>[gerry ferns, June 23]

Welcome to the discussion about aviation in Goa! Wish you had spoken up
earlier these past few months. The disconnect might have been a little less.
But better late than never, as they say! Hope you will find time to
familiarise yourself with the archives before jumping to conclusions again
on this subject.

Your post can basically be carved into three parts. The bulk of it, items
(c) to (k), is a forceful justification for an airport at Mopa. My quick
reaction is that I agree with you 100% on these 9 specific points. The only
trouble is, of late nobody (least of all yours truly) is questioning the
need for Mopa! So all you have succeeded in doing is demolishing a straw man
which might be a source of great satisfaction anyway.

The other problem is that your post is such an elaborate justification for
Mopa that you have left yourself open to criticism about a 'blind spot',
specifically, your apparent blind spot about the role of the miltary in the
constraints faced by Dabolim in particular and civil aviation in India in
general. All I will say for the time being is that it doesnt help to make
"mother hood statements" such as under items (a) and (b). The onus of proof
about effective dual use and integrated security is on the military and not
for civilians to accept as gospel from them. In my books, the Air Force
seems to be visibly demonstrating much more flexibility at Pune than the
Navy is showing in Dabolim! Maybe the concentrated industry lobby there is
much more potent than the fragmented tourism and travel lobby here. If you
have concrete information regarding Dabolim pls do feel free to share it.

This brings me to the final point at (l) in which you have said:
<l}[Fallacy] that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS QUO and not
build another Airport in North Goa, as this would be against the interests
of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF
AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!! >

You have to come clean and say whether you want Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an international tourist attraction.

P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-25 07:26:15 UTC
Permalink
The Gerry chap and a few are sons, relations or have
taken part in the invasion of Goa. Dabolim for them
should continue being a part of the spoils. This is
not tyranny innit?

B. Colaco
Post by Philip Thomas
You have to come clean and say whether you want
Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about
dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for
interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an
international tourist attraction.
P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real
problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Sucheta Dalal
2005-06-25 18:04:01 UTC
Permalink
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.

I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
enough to pay our taxes regularly).

Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
development and better infrastructure.

I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.

best
Sucheta

gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:

"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear".
Gabe Menezes
2005-06-26 04:35:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sucheta Dalal
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
RESPONSE: Welcome to this forum, a breath of fresh air I am sure!
I agree with you, from time to time we get charlatans, posting here
with all their airs and graces - they fool no one. They are self
fullfilling pompous so and so's. Unfortunately they find it difficult
to debate without first attempting to make their opponents feel
inferior or servile.

I do hope your input will make us all the better, for proper debating
instead of shooting one another down, just for the sake of scoring
points.

cheers.

Gabe Menezes
London England.
Aloysius D'Souza
2005-06-26 10:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Sucheta,

I fully agree and I had congratulated Philip on his clear message regarding the unnecessary MOPA airport.

Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa government see sense.

Cheers

Aloysius


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sucheta Dalal" <goanet at goanet.org>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 11:08 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Re: Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning


| So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
| refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
| Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
| that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
|
| I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
| any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
| infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
| enough to pay our taxes regularly).
|
| Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
| Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
| spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
| development and better infrastructure.
|
| I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.
|
| best
| Sucheta
|
| gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:
|
| "SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
| OWN"
|
| With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
| none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
| deaf as those who refuse to hear".
|
Gabe Menezes
2005-06-26 04:35:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sucheta Dalal
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
RESPONSE: Welcome to this forum, a breath of fresh air I am sure!
I agree with you, from time to time we get charlatans, posting here
with all their airs and graces - they fool no one. They are self
fullfilling pompous so and so's. Unfortunately they find it difficult
to debate without first attempting to make their opponents feel
inferior or servile.

I do hope your input will make us all the better, for proper debating
instead of shooting one another down, just for the sake of scoring
points.

cheers.

Gabe Menezes
London England.
Aloysius D'Souza
2005-06-26 10:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Sucheta,

I fully agree and I had congratulated Philip on his clear message regarding the unnecessary MOPA airport.

Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa government see sense.

Cheers

Aloysius


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sucheta Dalal" <goanet at goanet.org>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 11:08 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Re: Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning


| So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
| refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
| Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
| that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
|
| I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
| any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
| infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
| enough to pay our taxes regularly).
|
| Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
| Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
| spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
| development and better infrastructure.
|
| I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.
|
| best
| Sucheta
|
| gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:
|
| "SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
| OWN"
|
| With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
| none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
| deaf as those who refuse to hear".
|
Gabe Menezes
2005-06-26 04:35:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sucheta Dalal
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
RESPONSE: Welcome to this forum, a breath of fresh air I am sure!
I agree with you, from time to time we get charlatans, posting here
with all their airs and graces - they fool no one. They are self
fullfilling pompous so and so's. Unfortunately they find it difficult
to debate without first attempting to make their opponents feel
inferior or servile.

I do hope your input will make us all the better, for proper debating
instead of shooting one another down, just for the sake of scoring
points.

cheers.

Gabe Menezes
London England.
Aloysius D'Souza
2005-06-26 10:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Sucheta,

I fully agree and I had congratulated Philip on his clear message regarding the unnecessary MOPA airport.

Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa government see sense.

Cheers

Aloysius


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sucheta Dalal" <goanet at goanet.org>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 11:08 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Re: Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning


| So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
| refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
| Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
| that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
|
| I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
| any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
| infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
| enough to pay our taxes regularly).
|
| Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
| Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
| spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
| development and better infrastructure.
|
| I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.
|
| best
| Sucheta
|
| gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:
|
| "SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
| OWN"
|
| With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
| none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
| deaf as those who refuse to hear".
|
Gabe Menezes
2005-06-26 04:35:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sucheta Dalal
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
RESPONSE: Welcome to this forum, a breath of fresh air I am sure!
I agree with you, from time to time we get charlatans, posting here
with all their airs and graces - they fool no one. They are self
fullfilling pompous so and so's. Unfortunately they find it difficult
to debate without first attempting to make their opponents feel
inferior or servile.

I do hope your input will make us all the better, for proper debating
instead of shooting one another down, just for the sake of scoring
points.

cheers.

Gabe Menezes
London England.
Aloysius D'Souza
2005-06-26 10:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Sucheta,

I fully agree and I had congratulated Philip on his clear message regarding the unnecessary MOPA airport.

Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa government see sense.

Cheers

Aloysius


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sucheta Dalal" <goanet at goanet.org>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 11:08 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Re: Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning


| So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
| refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
| Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
| that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
|
| I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
| any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
| infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
| enough to pay our taxes regularly).
|
| Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
| Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
| spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
| development and better infrastructure.
|
| I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.
|
| best
| Sucheta
|
| gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:
|
| "SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
| OWN"
|
| With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
| none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
| deaf as those who refuse to hear".
|
Gabe Menezes
2005-06-26 04:35:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sucheta Dalal
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
RESPONSE: Welcome to this forum, a breath of fresh air I am sure!
I agree with you, from time to time we get charlatans, posting here
with all their airs and graces - they fool no one. They are self
fullfilling pompous so and so's. Unfortunately they find it difficult
to debate without first attempting to make their opponents feel
inferior or servile.

I do hope your input will make us all the better, for proper debating
instead of shooting one another down, just for the sake of scoring
points.

cheers.

Gabe Menezes
London England.
Aloysius D'Souza
2005-06-26 10:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Sucheta,

I fully agree and I had congratulated Philip on his clear message regarding the unnecessary MOPA airport.

Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa government see sense.

Cheers

Aloysius


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sucheta Dalal" <goanet at goanet.org>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 11:08 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Re: Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning


| So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
| refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
| Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
| that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
|
| I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
| any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
| infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
| enough to pay our taxes regularly).
|
| Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
| Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
| spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
| development and better infrastructure.
|
| I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.
|
| best
| Sucheta
|
| gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:
|
| "SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
| OWN"
|
| With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
| none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
| deaf as those who refuse to hear".
|
Gabe Menezes
2005-06-26 04:35:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sucheta Dalal
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
RESPONSE: Welcome to this forum, a breath of fresh air I am sure!
I agree with you, from time to time we get charlatans, posting here
with all their airs and graces - they fool no one. They are self
fullfilling pompous so and so's. Unfortunately they find it difficult
to debate without first attempting to make their opponents feel
inferior or servile.

I do hope your input will make us all the better, for proper debating
instead of shooting one another down, just for the sake of scoring
points.

cheers.

Gabe Menezes
London England.
Aloysius D'Souza
2005-06-26 10:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Sucheta,

I fully agree and I had congratulated Philip on his clear message regarding the unnecessary MOPA airport.

Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa government see sense.

Cheers

Aloysius


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sucheta Dalal" <goanet at goanet.org>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 11:08 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Re: Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning


| So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
| refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
| Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
| that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
|
| I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
| any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
| infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
| enough to pay our taxes regularly).
|
| Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
| Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
| spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
| development and better infrastructure.
|
| I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.
|
| best
| Sucheta
|
| gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:
|
| "SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
| OWN"
|
| With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
| none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
| deaf as those who refuse to hear".
|
Gabe Menezes
2005-06-26 04:35:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sucheta Dalal
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
RESPONSE: Welcome to this forum, a breath of fresh air I am sure!
I agree with you, from time to time we get charlatans, posting here
with all their airs and graces - they fool no one. They are self
fullfilling pompous so and so's. Unfortunately they find it difficult
to debate without first attempting to make their opponents feel
inferior or servile.

I do hope your input will make us all the better, for proper debating
instead of shooting one another down, just for the sake of scoring
points.

cheers.

Gabe Menezes
London England.
Aloysius D'Souza
2005-06-26 10:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Sucheta,

I fully agree and I had congratulated Philip on his clear message regarding the unnecessary MOPA airport.

Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa government see sense.

Cheers

Aloysius


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sucheta Dalal" <goanet at goanet.org>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 11:08 PM
Subject: [Goanet]Re: Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning


| So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
| refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
| Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
| that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.
|
| I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
| any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
| infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
| enough to pay our taxes regularly).
|
| Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
| Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
| spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
| development and better infrastructure.
|
| I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.
|
| best
| Sucheta
|
| gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:
|
| "SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
| OWN"
|
| With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
| none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
| deaf as those who refuse to hear".
|
Philip Thomas
2005-06-26 07:43:19 UTC
Permalink
< I don't see any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for
this lavish infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us
who are stupid enough to pay our taxes regularly). Secondly, I don't see why
the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to Karwar, which is just as
beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-spinning tourist
destination.>[Sucheta Dalal, June 25]

I would like to respond to these two points in reverse order as I believe
Dabolim is primary and Mopa is secondary.

1. Any objective review is bound to show that the Navy really has no
business in Dabolim any more. But they dont seem to be amenable, in the
least, to discussion or persuasion. I have concluded that their professional
(as opposed to personal) mindset allows them only to take orders. In other
words, they will budge from Dabolim only if ordered to do so! So the
question that follows is: whose orders will they take? This is the million
dollar question.

I feel that Dabolim is not an isolated case in the aviation scenario. Kochi,
Bangalore and Pune, to my knowledge, all had similar problems of turf. The
way out in the first two cases was to build greenfield airports and effect
the "clean separation" some have advocated. This is the traditional approach
we are up against as that is what people have come to expect in this kind of
a situation.

However, in the case of Pune, the Air Force has recently shown some
commendable flexibility and agreed to the needs for 40% more watch hours for
civilian flights w.e.f. Aug 1. But Pune also has a Plan B: viz a greenfield
airport at Chakan. Will civilian flights continue at Lohegaon once Chakan is
ready in a few years time? This is what we want at Dabolim.. an easing up by
the Navy at Dabolim and a continuation of civilian flights when Mopa comes
up (see below).

Joint civilian /military flights necessitate effective joint management, not
the step motherly treatment the Navy is extending as at present. As a result
of the latter people (like Sucheta) either do not seem to realise that the
Navy is actually controlling Dabolim or they feel that the present
conditions there may be solely due to the stupidity of the airlines and AAI.

I have found that in Hawaii there is supposed to be effective joint
management of the international airport and air force base both of which
consequently function as an integrated facility. Why cant this model be
followed in spirit at least at Dabolim and other important air bases/air
ports?

In the U.S they have also had what is called Base Realignment And Closure
(BRAC) reviews periodically over the past 10-20 years to evaluate the
military value of facilities as times change and effect necessary
alterations in their configuration . A big one was completed only recently
(last month in fact). It seems jointness (as between the three or four
military wings) was stressed this time for the sake of synergy and economy.

Given the unanticipated pressure posed by low cost civil aviation on our
meagre airport infrastructure, this may be the best opportunity to press for
a similar high level review of air bases in India including Dabolim. This
review must be launched and implemented before the pressure on airport
infrastructure is relieved by the planned modernisation of Mumbai and Delhi
and 30 nonmetro airports. This gives us a window of only about 3-5 years
depending on the extent to which low cost aviation takes off in India.

Dabolim may indeed be a tough nut to crack but a serious effort needs to be
made by all concerned especially now.

2. As stated at the outset, Mopa is secondary. It is necessary but not at
the cost of losing Dabolim to knee jerk aviation policy. Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not upfront planning and
investment especially by the state. The trouble is politicians get
mesmerised by high falutin plans and power point presentations and saddle
the people with white elephants while builders, promoters and their ilk
laugh all the way to the bank.

I greatly appreciate the opportunity to dilate on the issue of Goa's
aviation situation. I thank Sucheta Dalal for her valuable interest and
support and fellow goanetters for shaping my thinking on the subject over
the past several months.
Gabriel de Figueiredo
2005-06-27 09:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Thomas
Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at
Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years
to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can
operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed
at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on
runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not
concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the
like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not
upfront planning and
investment especially by the state.
Hi Philip,

I hate to disagree with you, but I don't think that is
quite the way to go. I have observed that often, when
one plans small and builds small, the surounding
"vacuum" is quickly filled with constructions (legal
or illegal), making future expansion impossible.

No - the way to go is to plan for all the shopping
malls, restaurants, rest areas (toilets / showers /
gyms / relaxation chairs) and car parks, large aprons
(capable of handling giants not only like A380, but
also larger aircraft of the future), and utilities
required to handle the larger capacities. Perhaps the
air-conditioning system should be in duplicate, seeing
the number of times I have sweated it out at Mumbai
airport. I have always erred on the side of caution in
quoting how long a project will take, by multiplying
what I expect by 1.5. A similar approach ought to be
used when planning for the future, spacewise.

Too often I note that Indian shops and malls are small
crowded affairs. Tourists are not often used to
having too small a personal space, and will keep clear
of such crowded spaces. Therefore, any malls and
shopping areas ought to be planned for sufficiently
large spaces, so also the check-in and baggage
reclamation areas.

Passengers ought to be able to have their near and
dear ones with them upto and until entering the
immigration area, which means that once check-in is
completed, passengers should be able to rest and have
a snack/chat with their dear ones. These facilities
are available at Heathrow, Gatwick, Melbourne etc as
well as at regional ones like Canberra (yes it is a
rather small airport) and Coolangatta (Gold Coast).
In India, this is not possible, even at the airport in
Mumbai.

Note that planning is one thing, designing is another,
and implementation is quite another thing altogether.
Therefore, the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small".

I thoroughly agree with you that one should start
small. However, plans for the "larger picture" ought
to be put on paper, to preserve the real-estate and to
provide a basis for requesting/allocating funds in
future years.

The only issues in this exposition are the
politicians, as you state in the following paras. They
will want to leave their "mark" (just as a dog does
whichever new place it visits), before their term in
office ends, which, in Goa's case, could be pretty
short.

P.S. As an aside, most roads in Melbourne were planned
/ designed a century ago; however, there were
provisions made for tram tracks and railway lines even
then; the place were I now stay was a farm paddock
then and the then tram track stopped just outside the
paddock; over the years (including the last eight),
the tram track has been expanded a number of kms
further now without causing any issues with motor
traffic or housing. There is scope to expand the same
even further, and will be done probably when those
areas get a sizable population. This is what planning
is all about.

Cheers,

Gabriel de Figueiredo.
Melbourne - Australia.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-27 11:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Souza,

Kindly note that "Our" Goa government is a mere puppet
and can not take any effective action. It is guys like
you and the quiet ones to lend their voices on this
issue.

I wonder if Goanet could conduct a poll on their
website regarding this topic: "Should the indian navy
get out of Dabolim?".

Kind regards

B. Colaco
--- Aloysius D'Souza <aloysius at bom1.vsnl.net.in>
Post by Aloysius D'Souza
airport.
Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans
internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa
government see sense.
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Philip Thomas
2005-06-27 21:45:47 UTC
Permalink
<the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small". I thoroughly agree with you that one should start small.
However, plans for the "larger picture" ought to be put on paper, to
preserve the real-estate and to provide a basis for requesting/allocating
funds in
future years. >[Gabriel de Figueiredo, June 27]

Fine. Let's try to put some numbers on this exercise, just to get a handle
on things. What should be the purpose of Mopa? It seems the rules may only
permit a domestic airport not an international one. This does not rule out
A380s, however, because airlines like Air Deccan are pushing Airbus for
short haul versions accommodating as many as 800 passengers! What are the
chances this will be feasible? Next question: how much land should be fenced
off for starters? 1500 acres? 4-5 thousand acres? More? Kochi is making do
with 1300 acres. Bangalore and Hyderabad are going for the larger areas. The
latter (esp Bangalore) are also reportedly plagued by allegations of land
scams. How much money does Goa govt have for putting into Mopa? In a public
private partnership set up it may not need to put in that much e.g 26%. But
still, control will lie with the private partner. Does Goa want to have
problems again with the tail wagging the dog as at Dabolim? In the end
drawing the line between planning for bare necessities and premptively
positioning a virgin site for a futuristic urban agglomeration may be a
black art. I sometimes wonder if Goa govt has what it takes. Let's hope for
the best!
gerry ferns
2005-06-23 14:55:57 UTC
Permalink
"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas,
which are discernible to my limited and UNTUTORED
perception:
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in
Goa.
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
Nasci Caldeira
2005-06-24 05:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Hello Gerry,

Your attack on Phillip Thomas' above mentioned article, is unwarranted. I
beg to differ completely on your so called "Fallacies List".
You have only made (false) statements and you presume that goanetters are
gullible, to take your statements as fact! Well I am not; and please read me
further down.
From: gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
Nasci:
For 'efficiency and streamlining operations', they are incompatible and
should be exclusive; only in the emergency of war, all such facilities will
come under the control of the war machine.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
Nasci: It is correct that these be seperate!
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
Nasci:
The Mopa Aoirport will certainly eat into the tourism pie of Goa; definitely
so!
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
Nasci:
It will not be against the interest of India, but will certainly be
completely against the interest of South Goa, Middle Goa and Eastern Goa,
that will remain underdeveloped!
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in Goa.
Nasci:
They will certainly not be able to respond and will in time 'go bankrupt';
and many of the residents of South Goa will loose jobs and business a
plenty. It can and will soon become a 'backward area; Such will be impact of
Mopa on South Goa!
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
Nasci:
No! In the case of Mopa, its the residents of North Goa alone who will have
good access and priveledge; where as in the case of Dabolim, ALL the people
of Goa, North, South, and East, already have equal access and priveledge
etc. Besides, the Dabolim Airport location etc has already made it a
'tremendous airport! All the infrastucture servicing the airport is close at
hand; the roads etc are already there; and the Terminal and other
infrastructure facilities can be further beefed up, at a fraction of the
cost involved with Mopa! Only the 'Naval Air' has to move either to Sea Bird
or to Mopa; Let the Navy build and use Mopa airport if at all!
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
Nasci:
The Tourism Dept. should never acquire land etc. in North Goa/ Pernem. Let
the Navy do the acquisition for the Mopa Airport, for their use, if at all!
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
Nasci:
What rubbish are you saying? We are talking of all Goans; it's you who is
talking only for Pernem residents! You seem to have a vested interest in
land in North Goa! Is this true?
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
Nasci:
These are your words! If you are 'Youth' than you are mistaken youth! Open
your eyes, and see how big the world is.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.
Nasci:
This is true! If funds, private or Govt. are diverted to Mopa; then Dabolim
will be neglected and the "Youth of Goa'' who you seem to be vouching for,
will be the worst sufferers!
Sell the Dabolim Airport to the private sector and build it up and let the
Naval Air acquire lane at Mopa and develop the same' if they so need it.
COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nasci:
Gerry, I hate to say this! But it is you who is trying to pass off 'Urine'
as wine!
Think well and truly for all of Goa and support the efforts of PhillipThomas
and myself.
Phillip Thomas is thinking of all of Goa and all of India too; very much
unlike you.

Cheers!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Philip Thomas
2005-06-24 07:55:42 UTC
Permalink
<"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas, which are discernible
to my limited and UNTUTORED perception:...>[gerry ferns, June 23]

Welcome to the discussion about aviation in Goa! Wish you had spoken up
earlier these past few months. The disconnect might have been a little less.
But better late than never, as they say! Hope you will find time to
familiarise yourself with the archives before jumping to conclusions again
on this subject.

Your post can basically be carved into three parts. The bulk of it, items
(c) to (k), is a forceful justification for an airport at Mopa. My quick
reaction is that I agree with you 100% on these 9 specific points. The only
trouble is, of late nobody (least of all yours truly) is questioning the
need for Mopa! So all you have succeeded in doing is demolishing a straw man
which might be a source of great satisfaction anyway.

The other problem is that your post is such an elaborate justification for
Mopa that you have left yourself open to criticism about a 'blind spot',
specifically, your apparent blind spot about the role of the miltary in the
constraints faced by Dabolim in particular and civil aviation in India in
general. All I will say for the time being is that it doesnt help to make
"mother hood statements" such as under items (a) and (b). The onus of proof
about effective dual use and integrated security is on the military and not
for civilians to accept as gospel from them. In my books, the Air Force
seems to be visibly demonstrating much more flexibility at Pune than the
Navy is showing in Dabolim! Maybe the concentrated industry lobby there is
much more potent than the fragmented tourism and travel lobby here. If you
have concrete information regarding Dabolim pls do feel free to share it.

This brings me to the final point at (l) in which you have said:
<l}[Fallacy] that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS QUO and not
build another Airport in North Goa, as this would be against the interests
of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF
AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!! >

You have to come clean and say whether you want Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an international tourist attraction.

P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-25 07:26:15 UTC
Permalink
The Gerry chap and a few are sons, relations or have
taken part in the invasion of Goa. Dabolim for them
should continue being a part of the spoils. This is
not tyranny innit?

B. Colaco
Post by Philip Thomas
You have to come clean and say whether you want
Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about
dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for
interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an
international tourist attraction.
P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real
problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Sucheta Dalal
2005-06-25 18:04:01 UTC
Permalink
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.

I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
enough to pay our taxes regularly).

Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
development and better infrastructure.

I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.

best
Sucheta

gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:

"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear".
Philip Thomas
2005-06-26 07:43:19 UTC
Permalink
< I don't see any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for
this lavish infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us
who are stupid enough to pay our taxes regularly). Secondly, I don't see why
the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to Karwar, which is just as
beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-spinning tourist
destination.>[Sucheta Dalal, June 25]

I would like to respond to these two points in reverse order as I believe
Dabolim is primary and Mopa is secondary.

1. Any objective review is bound to show that the Navy really has no
business in Dabolim any more. But they dont seem to be amenable, in the
least, to discussion or persuasion. I have concluded that their professional
(as opposed to personal) mindset allows them only to take orders. In other
words, they will budge from Dabolim only if ordered to do so! So the
question that follows is: whose orders will they take? This is the million
dollar question.

I feel that Dabolim is not an isolated case in the aviation scenario. Kochi,
Bangalore and Pune, to my knowledge, all had similar problems of turf. The
way out in the first two cases was to build greenfield airports and effect
the "clean separation" some have advocated. This is the traditional approach
we are up against as that is what people have come to expect in this kind of
a situation.

However, in the case of Pune, the Air Force has recently shown some
commendable flexibility and agreed to the needs for 40% more watch hours for
civilian flights w.e.f. Aug 1. But Pune also has a Plan B: viz a greenfield
airport at Chakan. Will civilian flights continue at Lohegaon once Chakan is
ready in a few years time? This is what we want at Dabolim.. an easing up by
the Navy at Dabolim and a continuation of civilian flights when Mopa comes
up (see below).

Joint civilian /military flights necessitate effective joint management, not
the step motherly treatment the Navy is extending as at present. As a result
of the latter people (like Sucheta) either do not seem to realise that the
Navy is actually controlling Dabolim or they feel that the present
conditions there may be solely due to the stupidity of the airlines and AAI.

I have found that in Hawaii there is supposed to be effective joint
management of the international airport and air force base both of which
consequently function as an integrated facility. Why cant this model be
followed in spirit at least at Dabolim and other important air bases/air
ports?

In the U.S they have also had what is called Base Realignment And Closure
(BRAC) reviews periodically over the past 10-20 years to evaluate the
military value of facilities as times change and effect necessary
alterations in their configuration . A big one was completed only recently
(last month in fact). It seems jointness (as between the three or four
military wings) was stressed this time for the sake of synergy and economy.

Given the unanticipated pressure posed by low cost civil aviation on our
meagre airport infrastructure, this may be the best opportunity to press for
a similar high level review of air bases in India including Dabolim. This
review must be launched and implemented before the pressure on airport
infrastructure is relieved by the planned modernisation of Mumbai and Delhi
and 30 nonmetro airports. This gives us a window of only about 3-5 years
depending on the extent to which low cost aviation takes off in India.

Dabolim may indeed be a tough nut to crack but a serious effort needs to be
made by all concerned especially now.

2. As stated at the outset, Mopa is secondary. It is necessary but not at
the cost of losing Dabolim to knee jerk aviation policy. Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not upfront planning and
investment especially by the state. The trouble is politicians get
mesmerised by high falutin plans and power point presentations and saddle
the people with white elephants while builders, promoters and their ilk
laugh all the way to the bank.

I greatly appreciate the opportunity to dilate on the issue of Goa's
aviation situation. I thank Sucheta Dalal for her valuable interest and
support and fellow goanetters for shaping my thinking on the subject over
the past several months.
Gabriel de Figueiredo
2005-06-27 09:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Thomas
Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at
Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years
to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can
operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed
at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on
runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not
concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the
like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not
upfront planning and
investment especially by the state.
Hi Philip,

I hate to disagree with you, but I don't think that is
quite the way to go. I have observed that often, when
one plans small and builds small, the surounding
"vacuum" is quickly filled with constructions (legal
or illegal), making future expansion impossible.

No - the way to go is to plan for all the shopping
malls, restaurants, rest areas (toilets / showers /
gyms / relaxation chairs) and car parks, large aprons
(capable of handling giants not only like A380, but
also larger aircraft of the future), and utilities
required to handle the larger capacities. Perhaps the
air-conditioning system should be in duplicate, seeing
the number of times I have sweated it out at Mumbai
airport. I have always erred on the side of caution in
quoting how long a project will take, by multiplying
what I expect by 1.5. A similar approach ought to be
used when planning for the future, spacewise.

Too often I note that Indian shops and malls are small
crowded affairs. Tourists are not often used to
having too small a personal space, and will keep clear
of such crowded spaces. Therefore, any malls and
shopping areas ought to be planned for sufficiently
large spaces, so also the check-in and baggage
reclamation areas.

Passengers ought to be able to have their near and
dear ones with them upto and until entering the
immigration area, which means that once check-in is
completed, passengers should be able to rest and have
a snack/chat with their dear ones. These facilities
are available at Heathrow, Gatwick, Melbourne etc as
well as at regional ones like Canberra (yes it is a
rather small airport) and Coolangatta (Gold Coast).
In India, this is not possible, even at the airport in
Mumbai.

Note that planning is one thing, designing is another,
and implementation is quite another thing altogether.
Therefore, the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small".

I thoroughly agree with you that one should start
small. However, plans for the "larger picture" ought
to be put on paper, to preserve the real-estate and to
provide a basis for requesting/allocating funds in
future years.

The only issues in this exposition are the
politicians, as you state in the following paras. They
will want to leave their "mark" (just as a dog does
whichever new place it visits), before their term in
office ends, which, in Goa's case, could be pretty
short.

P.S. As an aside, most roads in Melbourne were planned
/ designed a century ago; however, there were
provisions made for tram tracks and railway lines even
then; the place were I now stay was a farm paddock
then and the then tram track stopped just outside the
paddock; over the years (including the last eight),
the tram track has been expanded a number of kms
further now without causing any issues with motor
traffic or housing. There is scope to expand the same
even further, and will be done probably when those
areas get a sizable population. This is what planning
is all about.

Cheers,

Gabriel de Figueiredo.
Melbourne - Australia.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-27 11:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Souza,

Kindly note that "Our" Goa government is a mere puppet
and can not take any effective action. It is guys like
you and the quiet ones to lend their voices on this
issue.

I wonder if Goanet could conduct a poll on their
website regarding this topic: "Should the indian navy
get out of Dabolim?".

Kind regards

B. Colaco
--- Aloysius D'Souza <aloysius at bom1.vsnl.net.in>
Post by Aloysius D'Souza
airport.
Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans
internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa
government see sense.
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Philip Thomas
2005-06-27 21:45:47 UTC
Permalink
<the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small". I thoroughly agree with you that one should start small.
However, plans for the "larger picture" ought to be put on paper, to
preserve the real-estate and to provide a basis for requesting/allocating
funds in
future years. >[Gabriel de Figueiredo, June 27]

Fine. Let's try to put some numbers on this exercise, just to get a handle
on things. What should be the purpose of Mopa? It seems the rules may only
permit a domestic airport not an international one. This does not rule out
A380s, however, because airlines like Air Deccan are pushing Airbus for
short haul versions accommodating as many as 800 passengers! What are the
chances this will be feasible? Next question: how much land should be fenced
off for starters? 1500 acres? 4-5 thousand acres? More? Kochi is making do
with 1300 acres. Bangalore and Hyderabad are going for the larger areas. The
latter (esp Bangalore) are also reportedly plagued by allegations of land
scams. How much money does Goa govt have for putting into Mopa? In a public
private partnership set up it may not need to put in that much e.g 26%. But
still, control will lie with the private partner. Does Goa want to have
problems again with the tail wagging the dog as at Dabolim? In the end
drawing the line between planning for bare necessities and premptively
positioning a virgin site for a futuristic urban agglomeration may be a
black art. I sometimes wonder if Goa govt has what it takes. Let's hope for
the best!
gerry ferns
2005-06-23 14:55:57 UTC
Permalink
"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas,
which are discernible to my limited and UNTUTORED
perception:
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in
Goa.
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
Nasci Caldeira
2005-06-24 05:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Hello Gerry,

Your attack on Phillip Thomas' above mentioned article, is unwarranted. I
beg to differ completely on your so called "Fallacies List".
You have only made (false) statements and you presume that goanetters are
gullible, to take your statements as fact! Well I am not; and please read me
further down.
From: gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
Nasci:
For 'efficiency and streamlining operations', they are incompatible and
should be exclusive; only in the emergency of war, all such facilities will
come under the control of the war machine.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
Nasci: It is correct that these be seperate!
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
Nasci:
The Mopa Aoirport will certainly eat into the tourism pie of Goa; definitely
so!
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
Nasci:
It will not be against the interest of India, but will certainly be
completely against the interest of South Goa, Middle Goa and Eastern Goa,
that will remain underdeveloped!
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in Goa.
Nasci:
They will certainly not be able to respond and will in time 'go bankrupt';
and many of the residents of South Goa will loose jobs and business a
plenty. It can and will soon become a 'backward area; Such will be impact of
Mopa on South Goa!
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
Nasci:
No! In the case of Mopa, its the residents of North Goa alone who will have
good access and priveledge; where as in the case of Dabolim, ALL the people
of Goa, North, South, and East, already have equal access and priveledge
etc. Besides, the Dabolim Airport location etc has already made it a
'tremendous airport! All the infrastucture servicing the airport is close at
hand; the roads etc are already there; and the Terminal and other
infrastructure facilities can be further beefed up, at a fraction of the
cost involved with Mopa! Only the 'Naval Air' has to move either to Sea Bird
or to Mopa; Let the Navy build and use Mopa airport if at all!
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
Nasci:
The Tourism Dept. should never acquire land etc. in North Goa/ Pernem. Let
the Navy do the acquisition for the Mopa Airport, for their use, if at all!
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
Nasci:
What rubbish are you saying? We are talking of all Goans; it's you who is
talking only for Pernem residents! You seem to have a vested interest in
land in North Goa! Is this true?
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
Nasci:
These are your words! If you are 'Youth' than you are mistaken youth! Open
your eyes, and see how big the world is.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.
Nasci:
This is true! If funds, private or Govt. are diverted to Mopa; then Dabolim
will be neglected and the "Youth of Goa'' who you seem to be vouching for,
will be the worst sufferers!
Sell the Dabolim Airport to the private sector and build it up and let the
Naval Air acquire lane at Mopa and develop the same' if they so need it.
COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nasci:
Gerry, I hate to say this! But it is you who is trying to pass off 'Urine'
as wine!
Think well and truly for all of Goa and support the efforts of PhillipThomas
and myself.
Phillip Thomas is thinking of all of Goa and all of India too; very much
unlike you.

Cheers!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Philip Thomas
2005-06-24 07:55:42 UTC
Permalink
<"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas, which are discernible
to my limited and UNTUTORED perception:...>[gerry ferns, June 23]

Welcome to the discussion about aviation in Goa! Wish you had spoken up
earlier these past few months. The disconnect might have been a little less.
But better late than never, as they say! Hope you will find time to
familiarise yourself with the archives before jumping to conclusions again
on this subject.

Your post can basically be carved into three parts. The bulk of it, items
(c) to (k), is a forceful justification for an airport at Mopa. My quick
reaction is that I agree with you 100% on these 9 specific points. The only
trouble is, of late nobody (least of all yours truly) is questioning the
need for Mopa! So all you have succeeded in doing is demolishing a straw man
which might be a source of great satisfaction anyway.

The other problem is that your post is such an elaborate justification for
Mopa that you have left yourself open to criticism about a 'blind spot',
specifically, your apparent blind spot about the role of the miltary in the
constraints faced by Dabolim in particular and civil aviation in India in
general. All I will say for the time being is that it doesnt help to make
"mother hood statements" such as under items (a) and (b). The onus of proof
about effective dual use and integrated security is on the military and not
for civilians to accept as gospel from them. In my books, the Air Force
seems to be visibly demonstrating much more flexibility at Pune than the
Navy is showing in Dabolim! Maybe the concentrated industry lobby there is
much more potent than the fragmented tourism and travel lobby here. If you
have concrete information regarding Dabolim pls do feel free to share it.

This brings me to the final point at (l) in which you have said:
<l}[Fallacy] that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS QUO and not
build another Airport in North Goa, as this would be against the interests
of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF
AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!! >

You have to come clean and say whether you want Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an international tourist attraction.

P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-25 07:26:15 UTC
Permalink
The Gerry chap and a few are sons, relations or have
taken part in the invasion of Goa. Dabolim for them
should continue being a part of the spoils. This is
not tyranny innit?

B. Colaco
Post by Philip Thomas
You have to come clean and say whether you want
Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about
dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for
interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an
international tourist attraction.
P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real
problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Sucheta Dalal
2005-06-25 18:04:01 UTC
Permalink
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.

I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
enough to pay our taxes regularly).

Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
development and better infrastructure.

I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.

best
Sucheta

gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:

"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear".
Philip Thomas
2005-06-26 07:43:19 UTC
Permalink
< I don't see any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for
this lavish infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us
who are stupid enough to pay our taxes regularly). Secondly, I don't see why
the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to Karwar, which is just as
beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-spinning tourist
destination.>[Sucheta Dalal, June 25]

I would like to respond to these two points in reverse order as I believe
Dabolim is primary and Mopa is secondary.

1. Any objective review is bound to show that the Navy really has no
business in Dabolim any more. But they dont seem to be amenable, in the
least, to discussion or persuasion. I have concluded that their professional
(as opposed to personal) mindset allows them only to take orders. In other
words, they will budge from Dabolim only if ordered to do so! So the
question that follows is: whose orders will they take? This is the million
dollar question.

I feel that Dabolim is not an isolated case in the aviation scenario. Kochi,
Bangalore and Pune, to my knowledge, all had similar problems of turf. The
way out in the first two cases was to build greenfield airports and effect
the "clean separation" some have advocated. This is the traditional approach
we are up against as that is what people have come to expect in this kind of
a situation.

However, in the case of Pune, the Air Force has recently shown some
commendable flexibility and agreed to the needs for 40% more watch hours for
civilian flights w.e.f. Aug 1. But Pune also has a Plan B: viz a greenfield
airport at Chakan. Will civilian flights continue at Lohegaon once Chakan is
ready in a few years time? This is what we want at Dabolim.. an easing up by
the Navy at Dabolim and a continuation of civilian flights when Mopa comes
up (see below).

Joint civilian /military flights necessitate effective joint management, not
the step motherly treatment the Navy is extending as at present. As a result
of the latter people (like Sucheta) either do not seem to realise that the
Navy is actually controlling Dabolim or they feel that the present
conditions there may be solely due to the stupidity of the airlines and AAI.

I have found that in Hawaii there is supposed to be effective joint
management of the international airport and air force base both of which
consequently function as an integrated facility. Why cant this model be
followed in spirit at least at Dabolim and other important air bases/air
ports?

In the U.S they have also had what is called Base Realignment And Closure
(BRAC) reviews periodically over the past 10-20 years to evaluate the
military value of facilities as times change and effect necessary
alterations in their configuration . A big one was completed only recently
(last month in fact). It seems jointness (as between the three or four
military wings) was stressed this time for the sake of synergy and economy.

Given the unanticipated pressure posed by low cost civil aviation on our
meagre airport infrastructure, this may be the best opportunity to press for
a similar high level review of air bases in India including Dabolim. This
review must be launched and implemented before the pressure on airport
infrastructure is relieved by the planned modernisation of Mumbai and Delhi
and 30 nonmetro airports. This gives us a window of only about 3-5 years
depending on the extent to which low cost aviation takes off in India.

Dabolim may indeed be a tough nut to crack but a serious effort needs to be
made by all concerned especially now.

2. As stated at the outset, Mopa is secondary. It is necessary but not at
the cost of losing Dabolim to knee jerk aviation policy. Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not upfront planning and
investment especially by the state. The trouble is politicians get
mesmerised by high falutin plans and power point presentations and saddle
the people with white elephants while builders, promoters and their ilk
laugh all the way to the bank.

I greatly appreciate the opportunity to dilate on the issue of Goa's
aviation situation. I thank Sucheta Dalal for her valuable interest and
support and fellow goanetters for shaping my thinking on the subject over
the past several months.
Gabriel de Figueiredo
2005-06-27 09:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Thomas
Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at
Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years
to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can
operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed
at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on
runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not
concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the
like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not
upfront planning and
investment especially by the state.
Hi Philip,

I hate to disagree with you, but I don't think that is
quite the way to go. I have observed that often, when
one plans small and builds small, the surounding
"vacuum" is quickly filled with constructions (legal
or illegal), making future expansion impossible.

No - the way to go is to plan for all the shopping
malls, restaurants, rest areas (toilets / showers /
gyms / relaxation chairs) and car parks, large aprons
(capable of handling giants not only like A380, but
also larger aircraft of the future), and utilities
required to handle the larger capacities. Perhaps the
air-conditioning system should be in duplicate, seeing
the number of times I have sweated it out at Mumbai
airport. I have always erred on the side of caution in
quoting how long a project will take, by multiplying
what I expect by 1.5. A similar approach ought to be
used when planning for the future, spacewise.

Too often I note that Indian shops and malls are small
crowded affairs. Tourists are not often used to
having too small a personal space, and will keep clear
of such crowded spaces. Therefore, any malls and
shopping areas ought to be planned for sufficiently
large spaces, so also the check-in and baggage
reclamation areas.

Passengers ought to be able to have their near and
dear ones with them upto and until entering the
immigration area, which means that once check-in is
completed, passengers should be able to rest and have
a snack/chat with their dear ones. These facilities
are available at Heathrow, Gatwick, Melbourne etc as
well as at regional ones like Canberra (yes it is a
rather small airport) and Coolangatta (Gold Coast).
In India, this is not possible, even at the airport in
Mumbai.

Note that planning is one thing, designing is another,
and implementation is quite another thing altogether.
Therefore, the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small".

I thoroughly agree with you that one should start
small. However, plans for the "larger picture" ought
to be put on paper, to preserve the real-estate and to
provide a basis for requesting/allocating funds in
future years.

The only issues in this exposition are the
politicians, as you state in the following paras. They
will want to leave their "mark" (just as a dog does
whichever new place it visits), before their term in
office ends, which, in Goa's case, could be pretty
short.

P.S. As an aside, most roads in Melbourne were planned
/ designed a century ago; however, there were
provisions made for tram tracks and railway lines even
then; the place were I now stay was a farm paddock
then and the then tram track stopped just outside the
paddock; over the years (including the last eight),
the tram track has been expanded a number of kms
further now without causing any issues with motor
traffic or housing. There is scope to expand the same
even further, and will be done probably when those
areas get a sizable population. This is what planning
is all about.

Cheers,

Gabriel de Figueiredo.
Melbourne - Australia.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-27 11:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Souza,

Kindly note that "Our" Goa government is a mere puppet
and can not take any effective action. It is guys like
you and the quiet ones to lend their voices on this
issue.

I wonder if Goanet could conduct a poll on their
website regarding this topic: "Should the indian navy
get out of Dabolim?".

Kind regards

B. Colaco
--- Aloysius D'Souza <aloysius at bom1.vsnl.net.in>
Post by Aloysius D'Souza
airport.
Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans
internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa
government see sense.
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Philip Thomas
2005-06-27 21:45:47 UTC
Permalink
<the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small". I thoroughly agree with you that one should start small.
However, plans for the "larger picture" ought to be put on paper, to
preserve the real-estate and to provide a basis for requesting/allocating
funds in
future years. >[Gabriel de Figueiredo, June 27]

Fine. Let's try to put some numbers on this exercise, just to get a handle
on things. What should be the purpose of Mopa? It seems the rules may only
permit a domestic airport not an international one. This does not rule out
A380s, however, because airlines like Air Deccan are pushing Airbus for
short haul versions accommodating as many as 800 passengers! What are the
chances this will be feasible? Next question: how much land should be fenced
off for starters? 1500 acres? 4-5 thousand acres? More? Kochi is making do
with 1300 acres. Bangalore and Hyderabad are going for the larger areas. The
latter (esp Bangalore) are also reportedly plagued by allegations of land
scams. How much money does Goa govt have for putting into Mopa? In a public
private partnership set up it may not need to put in that much e.g 26%. But
still, control will lie with the private partner. Does Goa want to have
problems again with the tail wagging the dog as at Dabolim? In the end
drawing the line between planning for bare necessities and premptively
positioning a virgin site for a futuristic urban agglomeration may be a
black art. I sometimes wonder if Goa govt has what it takes. Let's hope for
the best!
gerry ferns
2005-06-23 14:55:57 UTC
Permalink
"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas,
which are discernible to my limited and UNTUTORED
perception:
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in
Goa.
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
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Nasci Caldeira
2005-06-24 05:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Hello Gerry,

Your attack on Phillip Thomas' above mentioned article, is unwarranted. I
beg to differ completely on your so called "Fallacies List".
You have only made (false) statements and you presume that goanetters are
gullible, to take your statements as fact! Well I am not; and please read me
further down.
From: gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
Nasci:
For 'efficiency and streamlining operations', they are incompatible and
should be exclusive; only in the emergency of war, all such facilities will
come under the control of the war machine.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
Nasci: It is correct that these be seperate!
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
Nasci:
The Mopa Aoirport will certainly eat into the tourism pie of Goa; definitely
so!
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
Nasci:
It will not be against the interest of India, but will certainly be
completely against the interest of South Goa, Middle Goa and Eastern Goa,
that will remain underdeveloped!
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in Goa.
Nasci:
They will certainly not be able to respond and will in time 'go bankrupt';
and many of the residents of South Goa will loose jobs and business a
plenty. It can and will soon become a 'backward area; Such will be impact of
Mopa on South Goa!
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
Nasci:
No! In the case of Mopa, its the residents of North Goa alone who will have
good access and priveledge; where as in the case of Dabolim, ALL the people
of Goa, North, South, and East, already have equal access and priveledge
etc. Besides, the Dabolim Airport location etc has already made it a
'tremendous airport! All the infrastucture servicing the airport is close at
hand; the roads etc are already there; and the Terminal and other
infrastructure facilities can be further beefed up, at a fraction of the
cost involved with Mopa! Only the 'Naval Air' has to move either to Sea Bird
or to Mopa; Let the Navy build and use Mopa airport if at all!
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
Nasci:
The Tourism Dept. should never acquire land etc. in North Goa/ Pernem. Let
the Navy do the acquisition for the Mopa Airport, for their use, if at all!
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
Nasci:
What rubbish are you saying? We are talking of all Goans; it's you who is
talking only for Pernem residents! You seem to have a vested interest in
land in North Goa! Is this true?
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
Nasci:
These are your words! If you are 'Youth' than you are mistaken youth! Open
your eyes, and see how big the world is.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.
Nasci:
This is true! If funds, private or Govt. are diverted to Mopa; then Dabolim
will be neglected and the "Youth of Goa'' who you seem to be vouching for,
will be the worst sufferers!
Sell the Dabolim Airport to the private sector and build it up and let the
Naval Air acquire lane at Mopa and develop the same' if they so need it.
COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nasci:
Gerry, I hate to say this! But it is you who is trying to pass off 'Urine'
as wine!
Think well and truly for all of Goa and support the efforts of PhillipThomas
and myself.
Phillip Thomas is thinking of all of Goa and all of India too; very much
unlike you.

Cheers!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Philip Thomas
2005-06-24 07:55:42 UTC
Permalink
<"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas, which are discernible
to my limited and UNTUTORED perception:...>[gerry ferns, June 23]

Welcome to the discussion about aviation in Goa! Wish you had spoken up
earlier these past few months. The disconnect might have been a little less.
But better late than never, as they say! Hope you will find time to
familiarise yourself with the archives before jumping to conclusions again
on this subject.

Your post can basically be carved into three parts. The bulk of it, items
(c) to (k), is a forceful justification for an airport at Mopa. My quick
reaction is that I agree with you 100% on these 9 specific points. The only
trouble is, of late nobody (least of all yours truly) is questioning the
need for Mopa! So all you have succeeded in doing is demolishing a straw man
which might be a source of great satisfaction anyway.

The other problem is that your post is such an elaborate justification for
Mopa that you have left yourself open to criticism about a 'blind spot',
specifically, your apparent blind spot about the role of the miltary in the
constraints faced by Dabolim in particular and civil aviation in India in
general. All I will say for the time being is that it doesnt help to make
"mother hood statements" such as under items (a) and (b). The onus of proof
about effective dual use and integrated security is on the military and not
for civilians to accept as gospel from them. In my books, the Air Force
seems to be visibly demonstrating much more flexibility at Pune than the
Navy is showing in Dabolim! Maybe the concentrated industry lobby there is
much more potent than the fragmented tourism and travel lobby here. If you
have concrete information regarding Dabolim pls do feel free to share it.

This brings me to the final point at (l) in which you have said:
<l}[Fallacy] that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS QUO and not
build another Airport in North Goa, as this would be against the interests
of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF
AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!! >

You have to come clean and say whether you want Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an international tourist attraction.

P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-25 07:26:15 UTC
Permalink
The Gerry chap and a few are sons, relations or have
taken part in the invasion of Goa. Dabolim for them
should continue being a part of the spoils. This is
not tyranny innit?

B. Colaco
Post by Philip Thomas
You have to come clean and say whether you want
Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about
dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for
interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an
international tourist attraction.
P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real
problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Sucheta Dalal
2005-06-25 18:04:01 UTC
Permalink
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.

I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
enough to pay our taxes regularly).

Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
development and better infrastructure.

I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.

best
Sucheta

gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:

"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear".
Philip Thomas
2005-06-26 07:43:19 UTC
Permalink
< I don't see any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for
this lavish infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us
who are stupid enough to pay our taxes regularly). Secondly, I don't see why
the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to Karwar, which is just as
beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-spinning tourist
destination.>[Sucheta Dalal, June 25]

I would like to respond to these two points in reverse order as I believe
Dabolim is primary and Mopa is secondary.

1. Any objective review is bound to show that the Navy really has no
business in Dabolim any more. But they dont seem to be amenable, in the
least, to discussion or persuasion. I have concluded that their professional
(as opposed to personal) mindset allows them only to take orders. In other
words, they will budge from Dabolim only if ordered to do so! So the
question that follows is: whose orders will they take? This is the million
dollar question.

I feel that Dabolim is not an isolated case in the aviation scenario. Kochi,
Bangalore and Pune, to my knowledge, all had similar problems of turf. The
way out in the first two cases was to build greenfield airports and effect
the "clean separation" some have advocated. This is the traditional approach
we are up against as that is what people have come to expect in this kind of
a situation.

However, in the case of Pune, the Air Force has recently shown some
commendable flexibility and agreed to the needs for 40% more watch hours for
civilian flights w.e.f. Aug 1. But Pune also has a Plan B: viz a greenfield
airport at Chakan. Will civilian flights continue at Lohegaon once Chakan is
ready in a few years time? This is what we want at Dabolim.. an easing up by
the Navy at Dabolim and a continuation of civilian flights when Mopa comes
up (see below).

Joint civilian /military flights necessitate effective joint management, not
the step motherly treatment the Navy is extending as at present. As a result
of the latter people (like Sucheta) either do not seem to realise that the
Navy is actually controlling Dabolim or they feel that the present
conditions there may be solely due to the stupidity of the airlines and AAI.

I have found that in Hawaii there is supposed to be effective joint
management of the international airport and air force base both of which
consequently function as an integrated facility. Why cant this model be
followed in spirit at least at Dabolim and other important air bases/air
ports?

In the U.S they have also had what is called Base Realignment And Closure
(BRAC) reviews periodically over the past 10-20 years to evaluate the
military value of facilities as times change and effect necessary
alterations in their configuration . A big one was completed only recently
(last month in fact). It seems jointness (as between the three or four
military wings) was stressed this time for the sake of synergy and economy.

Given the unanticipated pressure posed by low cost civil aviation on our
meagre airport infrastructure, this may be the best opportunity to press for
a similar high level review of air bases in India including Dabolim. This
review must be launched and implemented before the pressure on airport
infrastructure is relieved by the planned modernisation of Mumbai and Delhi
and 30 nonmetro airports. This gives us a window of only about 3-5 years
depending on the extent to which low cost aviation takes off in India.

Dabolim may indeed be a tough nut to crack but a serious effort needs to be
made by all concerned especially now.

2. As stated at the outset, Mopa is secondary. It is necessary but not at
the cost of losing Dabolim to knee jerk aviation policy. Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not upfront planning and
investment especially by the state. The trouble is politicians get
mesmerised by high falutin plans and power point presentations and saddle
the people with white elephants while builders, promoters and their ilk
laugh all the way to the bank.

I greatly appreciate the opportunity to dilate on the issue of Goa's
aviation situation. I thank Sucheta Dalal for her valuable interest and
support and fellow goanetters for shaping my thinking on the subject over
the past several months.
Gabriel de Figueiredo
2005-06-27 09:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Thomas
Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at
Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years
to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can
operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed
at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on
runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not
concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the
like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not
upfront planning and
investment especially by the state.
Hi Philip,

I hate to disagree with you, but I don't think that is
quite the way to go. I have observed that often, when
one plans small and builds small, the surounding
"vacuum" is quickly filled with constructions (legal
or illegal), making future expansion impossible.

No - the way to go is to plan for all the shopping
malls, restaurants, rest areas (toilets / showers /
gyms / relaxation chairs) and car parks, large aprons
(capable of handling giants not only like A380, but
also larger aircraft of the future), and utilities
required to handle the larger capacities. Perhaps the
air-conditioning system should be in duplicate, seeing
the number of times I have sweated it out at Mumbai
airport. I have always erred on the side of caution in
quoting how long a project will take, by multiplying
what I expect by 1.5. A similar approach ought to be
used when planning for the future, spacewise.

Too often I note that Indian shops and malls are small
crowded affairs. Tourists are not often used to
having too small a personal space, and will keep clear
of such crowded spaces. Therefore, any malls and
shopping areas ought to be planned for sufficiently
large spaces, so also the check-in and baggage
reclamation areas.

Passengers ought to be able to have their near and
dear ones with them upto and until entering the
immigration area, which means that once check-in is
completed, passengers should be able to rest and have
a snack/chat with their dear ones. These facilities
are available at Heathrow, Gatwick, Melbourne etc as
well as at regional ones like Canberra (yes it is a
rather small airport) and Coolangatta (Gold Coast).
In India, this is not possible, even at the airport in
Mumbai.

Note that planning is one thing, designing is another,
and implementation is quite another thing altogether.
Therefore, the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small".

I thoroughly agree with you that one should start
small. However, plans for the "larger picture" ought
to be put on paper, to preserve the real-estate and to
provide a basis for requesting/allocating funds in
future years.

The only issues in this exposition are the
politicians, as you state in the following paras. They
will want to leave their "mark" (just as a dog does
whichever new place it visits), before their term in
office ends, which, in Goa's case, could be pretty
short.

P.S. As an aside, most roads in Melbourne were planned
/ designed a century ago; however, there were
provisions made for tram tracks and railway lines even
then; the place were I now stay was a farm paddock
then and the then tram track stopped just outside the
paddock; over the years (including the last eight),
the tram track has been expanded a number of kms
further now without causing any issues with motor
traffic or housing. There is scope to expand the same
even further, and will be done probably when those
areas get a sizable population. This is what planning
is all about.

Cheers,

Gabriel de Figueiredo.
Melbourne - Australia.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-27 11:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Souza,

Kindly note that "Our" Goa government is a mere puppet
and can not take any effective action. It is guys like
you and the quiet ones to lend their voices on this
issue.

I wonder if Goanet could conduct a poll on their
website regarding this topic: "Should the indian navy
get out of Dabolim?".

Kind regards

B. Colaco
--- Aloysius D'Souza <aloysius at bom1.vsnl.net.in>
Post by Aloysius D'Souza
airport.
Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans
internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa
government see sense.
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Philip Thomas
2005-06-27 21:45:47 UTC
Permalink
<the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small". I thoroughly agree with you that one should start small.
However, plans for the "larger picture" ought to be put on paper, to
preserve the real-estate and to provide a basis for requesting/allocating
funds in
future years. >[Gabriel de Figueiredo, June 27]

Fine. Let's try to put some numbers on this exercise, just to get a handle
on things. What should be the purpose of Mopa? It seems the rules may only
permit a domestic airport not an international one. This does not rule out
A380s, however, because airlines like Air Deccan are pushing Airbus for
short haul versions accommodating as many as 800 passengers! What are the
chances this will be feasible? Next question: how much land should be fenced
off for starters? 1500 acres? 4-5 thousand acres? More? Kochi is making do
with 1300 acres. Bangalore and Hyderabad are going for the larger areas. The
latter (esp Bangalore) are also reportedly plagued by allegations of land
scams. How much money does Goa govt have for putting into Mopa? In a public
private partnership set up it may not need to put in that much e.g 26%. But
still, control will lie with the private partner. Does Goa want to have
problems again with the tail wagging the dog as at Dabolim? In the end
drawing the line between planning for bare necessities and premptively
positioning a virgin site for a futuristic urban agglomeration may be a
black art. I sometimes wonder if Goa govt has what it takes. Let's hope for
the best!
gerry ferns
2005-06-23 14:55:57 UTC
Permalink
"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas,
which are discernible to my limited and UNTUTORED
perception:
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in
Goa.
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
Nasci Caldeira
2005-06-24 05:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Hello Gerry,

Your attack on Phillip Thomas' above mentioned article, is unwarranted. I
beg to differ completely on your so called "Fallacies List".
You have only made (false) statements and you presume that goanetters are
gullible, to take your statements as fact! Well I am not; and please read me
further down.
From: gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
Nasci:
For 'efficiency and streamlining operations', they are incompatible and
should be exclusive; only in the emergency of war, all such facilities will
come under the control of the war machine.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
Nasci: It is correct that these be seperate!
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
Nasci:
The Mopa Aoirport will certainly eat into the tourism pie of Goa; definitely
so!
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
Nasci:
It will not be against the interest of India, but will certainly be
completely against the interest of South Goa, Middle Goa and Eastern Goa,
that will remain underdeveloped!
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in Goa.
Nasci:
They will certainly not be able to respond and will in time 'go bankrupt';
and many of the residents of South Goa will loose jobs and business a
plenty. It can and will soon become a 'backward area; Such will be impact of
Mopa on South Goa!
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
Nasci:
No! In the case of Mopa, its the residents of North Goa alone who will have
good access and priveledge; where as in the case of Dabolim, ALL the people
of Goa, North, South, and East, already have equal access and priveledge
etc. Besides, the Dabolim Airport location etc has already made it a
'tremendous airport! All the infrastucture servicing the airport is close at
hand; the roads etc are already there; and the Terminal and other
infrastructure facilities can be further beefed up, at a fraction of the
cost involved with Mopa! Only the 'Naval Air' has to move either to Sea Bird
or to Mopa; Let the Navy build and use Mopa airport if at all!
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
Nasci:
The Tourism Dept. should never acquire land etc. in North Goa/ Pernem. Let
the Navy do the acquisition for the Mopa Airport, for their use, if at all!
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
Nasci:
What rubbish are you saying? We are talking of all Goans; it's you who is
talking only for Pernem residents! You seem to have a vested interest in
land in North Goa! Is this true?
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
Nasci:
These are your words! If you are 'Youth' than you are mistaken youth! Open
your eyes, and see how big the world is.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.
Nasci:
This is true! If funds, private or Govt. are diverted to Mopa; then Dabolim
will be neglected and the "Youth of Goa'' who you seem to be vouching for,
will be the worst sufferers!
Sell the Dabolim Airport to the private sector and build it up and let the
Naval Air acquire lane at Mopa and develop the same' if they so need it.
COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nasci:
Gerry, I hate to say this! But it is you who is trying to pass off 'Urine'
as wine!
Think well and truly for all of Goa and support the efforts of PhillipThomas
and myself.
Phillip Thomas is thinking of all of Goa and all of India too; very much
unlike you.

Cheers!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Philip Thomas
2005-06-24 07:55:42 UTC
Permalink
<"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas, which are discernible
to my limited and UNTUTORED perception:...>[gerry ferns, June 23]

Welcome to the discussion about aviation in Goa! Wish you had spoken up
earlier these past few months. The disconnect might have been a little less.
But better late than never, as they say! Hope you will find time to
familiarise yourself with the archives before jumping to conclusions again
on this subject.

Your post can basically be carved into three parts. The bulk of it, items
(c) to (k), is a forceful justification for an airport at Mopa. My quick
reaction is that I agree with you 100% on these 9 specific points. The only
trouble is, of late nobody (least of all yours truly) is questioning the
need for Mopa! So all you have succeeded in doing is demolishing a straw man
which might be a source of great satisfaction anyway.

The other problem is that your post is such an elaborate justification for
Mopa that you have left yourself open to criticism about a 'blind spot',
specifically, your apparent blind spot about the role of the miltary in the
constraints faced by Dabolim in particular and civil aviation in India in
general. All I will say for the time being is that it doesnt help to make
"mother hood statements" such as under items (a) and (b). The onus of proof
about effective dual use and integrated security is on the military and not
for civilians to accept as gospel from them. In my books, the Air Force
seems to be visibly demonstrating much more flexibility at Pune than the
Navy is showing in Dabolim! Maybe the concentrated industry lobby there is
much more potent than the fragmented tourism and travel lobby here. If you
have concrete information regarding Dabolim pls do feel free to share it.

This brings me to the final point at (l) in which you have said:
<l}[Fallacy] that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS QUO and not
build another Airport in North Goa, as this would be against the interests
of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF
AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!! >

You have to come clean and say whether you want Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an international tourist attraction.

P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-25 07:26:15 UTC
Permalink
The Gerry chap and a few are sons, relations or have
taken part in the invasion of Goa. Dabolim for them
should continue being a part of the spoils. This is
not tyranny innit?

B. Colaco
Post by Philip Thomas
You have to come clean and say whether you want
Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about
dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for
interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an
international tourist attraction.
P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real
problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Sucheta Dalal
2005-06-25 18:04:01 UTC
Permalink
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.

I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
enough to pay our taxes regularly).

Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
development and better infrastructure.

I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.

best
Sucheta

gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:

"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear".
Philip Thomas
2005-06-26 07:43:19 UTC
Permalink
< I don't see any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for
this lavish infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us
who are stupid enough to pay our taxes regularly). Secondly, I don't see why
the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to Karwar, which is just as
beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-spinning tourist
destination.>[Sucheta Dalal, June 25]

I would like to respond to these two points in reverse order as I believe
Dabolim is primary and Mopa is secondary.

1. Any objective review is bound to show that the Navy really has no
business in Dabolim any more. But they dont seem to be amenable, in the
least, to discussion or persuasion. I have concluded that their professional
(as opposed to personal) mindset allows them only to take orders. In other
words, they will budge from Dabolim only if ordered to do so! So the
question that follows is: whose orders will they take? This is the million
dollar question.

I feel that Dabolim is not an isolated case in the aviation scenario. Kochi,
Bangalore and Pune, to my knowledge, all had similar problems of turf. The
way out in the first two cases was to build greenfield airports and effect
the "clean separation" some have advocated. This is the traditional approach
we are up against as that is what people have come to expect in this kind of
a situation.

However, in the case of Pune, the Air Force has recently shown some
commendable flexibility and agreed to the needs for 40% more watch hours for
civilian flights w.e.f. Aug 1. But Pune also has a Plan B: viz a greenfield
airport at Chakan. Will civilian flights continue at Lohegaon once Chakan is
ready in a few years time? This is what we want at Dabolim.. an easing up by
the Navy at Dabolim and a continuation of civilian flights when Mopa comes
up (see below).

Joint civilian /military flights necessitate effective joint management, not
the step motherly treatment the Navy is extending as at present. As a result
of the latter people (like Sucheta) either do not seem to realise that the
Navy is actually controlling Dabolim or they feel that the present
conditions there may be solely due to the stupidity of the airlines and AAI.

I have found that in Hawaii there is supposed to be effective joint
management of the international airport and air force base both of which
consequently function as an integrated facility. Why cant this model be
followed in spirit at least at Dabolim and other important air bases/air
ports?

In the U.S they have also had what is called Base Realignment And Closure
(BRAC) reviews periodically over the past 10-20 years to evaluate the
military value of facilities as times change and effect necessary
alterations in their configuration . A big one was completed only recently
(last month in fact). It seems jointness (as between the three or four
military wings) was stressed this time for the sake of synergy and economy.

Given the unanticipated pressure posed by low cost civil aviation on our
meagre airport infrastructure, this may be the best opportunity to press for
a similar high level review of air bases in India including Dabolim. This
review must be launched and implemented before the pressure on airport
infrastructure is relieved by the planned modernisation of Mumbai and Delhi
and 30 nonmetro airports. This gives us a window of only about 3-5 years
depending on the extent to which low cost aviation takes off in India.

Dabolim may indeed be a tough nut to crack but a serious effort needs to be
made by all concerned especially now.

2. As stated at the outset, Mopa is secondary. It is necessary but not at
the cost of losing Dabolim to knee jerk aviation policy. Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not upfront planning and
investment especially by the state. The trouble is politicians get
mesmerised by high falutin plans and power point presentations and saddle
the people with white elephants while builders, promoters and their ilk
laugh all the way to the bank.

I greatly appreciate the opportunity to dilate on the issue of Goa's
aviation situation. I thank Sucheta Dalal for her valuable interest and
support and fellow goanetters for shaping my thinking on the subject over
the past several months.
Gabriel de Figueiredo
2005-06-27 09:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Thomas
Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at
Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years
to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can
operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed
at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on
runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not
concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the
like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not
upfront planning and
investment especially by the state.
Hi Philip,

I hate to disagree with you, but I don't think that is
quite the way to go. I have observed that often, when
one plans small and builds small, the surounding
"vacuum" is quickly filled with constructions (legal
or illegal), making future expansion impossible.

No - the way to go is to plan for all the shopping
malls, restaurants, rest areas (toilets / showers /
gyms / relaxation chairs) and car parks, large aprons
(capable of handling giants not only like A380, but
also larger aircraft of the future), and utilities
required to handle the larger capacities. Perhaps the
air-conditioning system should be in duplicate, seeing
the number of times I have sweated it out at Mumbai
airport. I have always erred on the side of caution in
quoting how long a project will take, by multiplying
what I expect by 1.5. A similar approach ought to be
used when planning for the future, spacewise.

Too often I note that Indian shops and malls are small
crowded affairs. Tourists are not often used to
having too small a personal space, and will keep clear
of such crowded spaces. Therefore, any malls and
shopping areas ought to be planned for sufficiently
large spaces, so also the check-in and baggage
reclamation areas.

Passengers ought to be able to have their near and
dear ones with them upto and until entering the
immigration area, which means that once check-in is
completed, passengers should be able to rest and have
a snack/chat with their dear ones. These facilities
are available at Heathrow, Gatwick, Melbourne etc as
well as at regional ones like Canberra (yes it is a
rather small airport) and Coolangatta (Gold Coast).
In India, this is not possible, even at the airport in
Mumbai.

Note that planning is one thing, designing is another,
and implementation is quite another thing altogether.
Therefore, the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small".

I thoroughly agree with you that one should start
small. However, plans for the "larger picture" ought
to be put on paper, to preserve the real-estate and to
provide a basis for requesting/allocating funds in
future years.

The only issues in this exposition are the
politicians, as you state in the following paras. They
will want to leave their "mark" (just as a dog does
whichever new place it visits), before their term in
office ends, which, in Goa's case, could be pretty
short.

P.S. As an aside, most roads in Melbourne were planned
/ designed a century ago; however, there were
provisions made for tram tracks and railway lines even
then; the place were I now stay was a farm paddock
then and the then tram track stopped just outside the
paddock; over the years (including the last eight),
the tram track has been expanded a number of kms
further now without causing any issues with motor
traffic or housing. There is scope to expand the same
even further, and will be done probably when those
areas get a sizable population. This is what planning
is all about.

Cheers,

Gabriel de Figueiredo.
Melbourne - Australia.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-27 11:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Souza,

Kindly note that "Our" Goa government is a mere puppet
and can not take any effective action. It is guys like
you and the quiet ones to lend their voices on this
issue.

I wonder if Goanet could conduct a poll on their
website regarding this topic: "Should the indian navy
get out of Dabolim?".

Kind regards

B. Colaco
--- Aloysius D'Souza <aloysius at bom1.vsnl.net.in>
Post by Aloysius D'Souza
airport.
Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans
internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa
government see sense.
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Philip Thomas
2005-06-27 21:45:47 UTC
Permalink
<the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small". I thoroughly agree with you that one should start small.
However, plans for the "larger picture" ought to be put on paper, to
preserve the real-estate and to provide a basis for requesting/allocating
funds in
future years. >[Gabriel de Figueiredo, June 27]

Fine. Let's try to put some numbers on this exercise, just to get a handle
on things. What should be the purpose of Mopa? It seems the rules may only
permit a domestic airport not an international one. This does not rule out
A380s, however, because airlines like Air Deccan are pushing Airbus for
short haul versions accommodating as many as 800 passengers! What are the
chances this will be feasible? Next question: how much land should be fenced
off for starters? 1500 acres? 4-5 thousand acres? More? Kochi is making do
with 1300 acres. Bangalore and Hyderabad are going for the larger areas. The
latter (esp Bangalore) are also reportedly plagued by allegations of land
scams. How much money does Goa govt have for putting into Mopa? In a public
private partnership set up it may not need to put in that much e.g 26%. But
still, control will lie with the private partner. Does Goa want to have
problems again with the tail wagging the dog as at Dabolim? In the end
drawing the line between planning for bare necessities and premptively
positioning a virgin site for a futuristic urban agglomeration may be a
black art. I sometimes wonder if Goa govt has what it takes. Let's hope for
the best!
gerry ferns
2005-06-23 14:55:57 UTC
Permalink
"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas,
which are discernible to my limited and UNTUTORED
perception:
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in
Goa.
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
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Nasci Caldeira
2005-06-24 05:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Hello Gerry,

Your attack on Phillip Thomas' above mentioned article, is unwarranted. I
beg to differ completely on your so called "Fallacies List".
You have only made (false) statements and you presume that goanetters are
gullible, to take your statements as fact! Well I am not; and please read me
further down.
From: gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
Nasci:
For 'efficiency and streamlining operations', they are incompatible and
should be exclusive; only in the emergency of war, all such facilities will
come under the control of the war machine.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
Nasci: It is correct that these be seperate!
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
Nasci:
The Mopa Aoirport will certainly eat into the tourism pie of Goa; definitely
so!
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
Nasci:
It will not be against the interest of India, but will certainly be
completely against the interest of South Goa, Middle Goa and Eastern Goa,
that will remain underdeveloped!
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in Goa.
Nasci:
They will certainly not be able to respond and will in time 'go bankrupt';
and many of the residents of South Goa will loose jobs and business a
plenty. It can and will soon become a 'backward area; Such will be impact of
Mopa on South Goa!
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
Nasci:
No! In the case of Mopa, its the residents of North Goa alone who will have
good access and priveledge; where as in the case of Dabolim, ALL the people
of Goa, North, South, and East, already have equal access and priveledge
etc. Besides, the Dabolim Airport location etc has already made it a
'tremendous airport! All the infrastucture servicing the airport is close at
hand; the roads etc are already there; and the Terminal and other
infrastructure facilities can be further beefed up, at a fraction of the
cost involved with Mopa! Only the 'Naval Air' has to move either to Sea Bird
or to Mopa; Let the Navy build and use Mopa airport if at all!
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
Nasci:
The Tourism Dept. should never acquire land etc. in North Goa/ Pernem. Let
the Navy do the acquisition for the Mopa Airport, for their use, if at all!
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
Nasci:
What rubbish are you saying? We are talking of all Goans; it's you who is
talking only for Pernem residents! You seem to have a vested interest in
land in North Goa! Is this true?
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
Nasci:
These are your words! If you are 'Youth' than you are mistaken youth! Open
your eyes, and see how big the world is.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.
Nasci:
This is true! If funds, private or Govt. are diverted to Mopa; then Dabolim
will be neglected and the "Youth of Goa'' who you seem to be vouching for,
will be the worst sufferers!
Sell the Dabolim Airport to the private sector and build it up and let the
Naval Air acquire lane at Mopa and develop the same' if they so need it.
COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nasci:
Gerry, I hate to say this! But it is you who is trying to pass off 'Urine'
as wine!
Think well and truly for all of Goa and support the efforts of PhillipThomas
and myself.
Phillip Thomas is thinking of all of Goa and all of India too; very much
unlike you.

Cheers!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Philip Thomas
2005-06-24 07:55:42 UTC
Permalink
<"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas, which are discernible
to my limited and UNTUTORED perception:...>[gerry ferns, June 23]

Welcome to the discussion about aviation in Goa! Wish you had spoken up
earlier these past few months. The disconnect might have been a little less.
But better late than never, as they say! Hope you will find time to
familiarise yourself with the archives before jumping to conclusions again
on this subject.

Your post can basically be carved into three parts. The bulk of it, items
(c) to (k), is a forceful justification for an airport at Mopa. My quick
reaction is that I agree with you 100% on these 9 specific points. The only
trouble is, of late nobody (least of all yours truly) is questioning the
need for Mopa! So all you have succeeded in doing is demolishing a straw man
which might be a source of great satisfaction anyway.

The other problem is that your post is such an elaborate justification for
Mopa that you have left yourself open to criticism about a 'blind spot',
specifically, your apparent blind spot about the role of the miltary in the
constraints faced by Dabolim in particular and civil aviation in India in
general. All I will say for the time being is that it doesnt help to make
"mother hood statements" such as under items (a) and (b). The onus of proof
about effective dual use and integrated security is on the military and not
for civilians to accept as gospel from them. In my books, the Air Force
seems to be visibly demonstrating much more flexibility at Pune than the
Navy is showing in Dabolim! Maybe the concentrated industry lobby there is
much more potent than the fragmented tourism and travel lobby here. If you
have concrete information regarding Dabolim pls do feel free to share it.

This brings me to the final point at (l) in which you have said:
<l}[Fallacy] that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS QUO and not
build another Airport in North Goa, as this would be against the interests
of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF
AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!! >

You have to come clean and say whether you want Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an international tourist attraction.

P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-25 07:26:15 UTC
Permalink
The Gerry chap and a few are sons, relations or have
taken part in the invasion of Goa. Dabolim for them
should continue being a part of the spoils. This is
not tyranny innit?

B. Colaco
Post by Philip Thomas
You have to come clean and say whether you want
Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about
dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for
interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an
international tourist attraction.
P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real
problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Sucheta Dalal
2005-06-25 18:04:01 UTC
Permalink
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.

I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
enough to pay our taxes regularly).

Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
development and better infrastructure.

I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.

best
Sucheta

gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:

"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear".
Philip Thomas
2005-06-26 07:43:19 UTC
Permalink
< I don't see any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for
this lavish infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us
who are stupid enough to pay our taxes regularly). Secondly, I don't see why
the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to Karwar, which is just as
beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-spinning tourist
destination.>[Sucheta Dalal, June 25]

I would like to respond to these two points in reverse order as I believe
Dabolim is primary and Mopa is secondary.

1. Any objective review is bound to show that the Navy really has no
business in Dabolim any more. But they dont seem to be amenable, in the
least, to discussion or persuasion. I have concluded that their professional
(as opposed to personal) mindset allows them only to take orders. In other
words, they will budge from Dabolim only if ordered to do so! So the
question that follows is: whose orders will they take? This is the million
dollar question.

I feel that Dabolim is not an isolated case in the aviation scenario. Kochi,
Bangalore and Pune, to my knowledge, all had similar problems of turf. The
way out in the first two cases was to build greenfield airports and effect
the "clean separation" some have advocated. This is the traditional approach
we are up against as that is what people have come to expect in this kind of
a situation.

However, in the case of Pune, the Air Force has recently shown some
commendable flexibility and agreed to the needs for 40% more watch hours for
civilian flights w.e.f. Aug 1. But Pune also has a Plan B: viz a greenfield
airport at Chakan. Will civilian flights continue at Lohegaon once Chakan is
ready in a few years time? This is what we want at Dabolim.. an easing up by
the Navy at Dabolim and a continuation of civilian flights when Mopa comes
up (see below).

Joint civilian /military flights necessitate effective joint management, not
the step motherly treatment the Navy is extending as at present. As a result
of the latter people (like Sucheta) either do not seem to realise that the
Navy is actually controlling Dabolim or they feel that the present
conditions there may be solely due to the stupidity of the airlines and AAI.

I have found that in Hawaii there is supposed to be effective joint
management of the international airport and air force base both of which
consequently function as an integrated facility. Why cant this model be
followed in spirit at least at Dabolim and other important air bases/air
ports?

In the U.S they have also had what is called Base Realignment And Closure
(BRAC) reviews periodically over the past 10-20 years to evaluate the
military value of facilities as times change and effect necessary
alterations in their configuration . A big one was completed only recently
(last month in fact). It seems jointness (as between the three or four
military wings) was stressed this time for the sake of synergy and economy.

Given the unanticipated pressure posed by low cost civil aviation on our
meagre airport infrastructure, this may be the best opportunity to press for
a similar high level review of air bases in India including Dabolim. This
review must be launched and implemented before the pressure on airport
infrastructure is relieved by the planned modernisation of Mumbai and Delhi
and 30 nonmetro airports. This gives us a window of only about 3-5 years
depending on the extent to which low cost aviation takes off in India.

Dabolim may indeed be a tough nut to crack but a serious effort needs to be
made by all concerned especially now.

2. As stated at the outset, Mopa is secondary. It is necessary but not at
the cost of losing Dabolim to knee jerk aviation policy. Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not upfront planning and
investment especially by the state. The trouble is politicians get
mesmerised by high falutin plans and power point presentations and saddle
the people with white elephants while builders, promoters and their ilk
laugh all the way to the bank.

I greatly appreciate the opportunity to dilate on the issue of Goa's
aviation situation. I thank Sucheta Dalal for her valuable interest and
support and fellow goanetters for shaping my thinking on the subject over
the past several months.
Gabriel de Figueiredo
2005-06-27 09:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Thomas
Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at
Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years
to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can
operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed
at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on
runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not
concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the
like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not
upfront planning and
investment especially by the state.
Hi Philip,

I hate to disagree with you, but I don't think that is
quite the way to go. I have observed that often, when
one plans small and builds small, the surounding
"vacuum" is quickly filled with constructions (legal
or illegal), making future expansion impossible.

No - the way to go is to plan for all the shopping
malls, restaurants, rest areas (toilets / showers /
gyms / relaxation chairs) and car parks, large aprons
(capable of handling giants not only like A380, but
also larger aircraft of the future), and utilities
required to handle the larger capacities. Perhaps the
air-conditioning system should be in duplicate, seeing
the number of times I have sweated it out at Mumbai
airport. I have always erred on the side of caution in
quoting how long a project will take, by multiplying
what I expect by 1.5. A similar approach ought to be
used when planning for the future, spacewise.

Too often I note that Indian shops and malls are small
crowded affairs. Tourists are not often used to
having too small a personal space, and will keep clear
of such crowded spaces. Therefore, any malls and
shopping areas ought to be planned for sufficiently
large spaces, so also the check-in and baggage
reclamation areas.

Passengers ought to be able to have their near and
dear ones with them upto and until entering the
immigration area, which means that once check-in is
completed, passengers should be able to rest and have
a snack/chat with their dear ones. These facilities
are available at Heathrow, Gatwick, Melbourne etc as
well as at regional ones like Canberra (yes it is a
rather small airport) and Coolangatta (Gold Coast).
In India, this is not possible, even at the airport in
Mumbai.

Note that planning is one thing, designing is another,
and implementation is quite another thing altogether.
Therefore, the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small".

I thoroughly agree with you that one should start
small. However, plans for the "larger picture" ought
to be put on paper, to preserve the real-estate and to
provide a basis for requesting/allocating funds in
future years.

The only issues in this exposition are the
politicians, as you state in the following paras. They
will want to leave their "mark" (just as a dog does
whichever new place it visits), before their term in
office ends, which, in Goa's case, could be pretty
short.

P.S. As an aside, most roads in Melbourne were planned
/ designed a century ago; however, there were
provisions made for tram tracks and railway lines even
then; the place were I now stay was a farm paddock
then and the then tram track stopped just outside the
paddock; over the years (including the last eight),
the tram track has been expanded a number of kms
further now without causing any issues with motor
traffic or housing. There is scope to expand the same
even further, and will be done probably when those
areas get a sizable population. This is what planning
is all about.

Cheers,

Gabriel de Figueiredo.
Melbourne - Australia.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-27 11:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Souza,

Kindly note that "Our" Goa government is a mere puppet
and can not take any effective action. It is guys like
you and the quiet ones to lend their voices on this
issue.

I wonder if Goanet could conduct a poll on their
website regarding this topic: "Should the indian navy
get out of Dabolim?".

Kind regards

B. Colaco
--- Aloysius D'Souza <aloysius at bom1.vsnl.net.in>
Post by Aloysius D'Souza
airport.
Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans
internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa
government see sense.
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Philip Thomas
2005-06-27 21:45:47 UTC
Permalink
<the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small". I thoroughly agree with you that one should start small.
However, plans for the "larger picture" ought to be put on paper, to
preserve the real-estate and to provide a basis for requesting/allocating
funds in
future years. >[Gabriel de Figueiredo, June 27]

Fine. Let's try to put some numbers on this exercise, just to get a handle
on things. What should be the purpose of Mopa? It seems the rules may only
permit a domestic airport not an international one. This does not rule out
A380s, however, because airlines like Air Deccan are pushing Airbus for
short haul versions accommodating as many as 800 passengers! What are the
chances this will be feasible? Next question: how much land should be fenced
off for starters? 1500 acres? 4-5 thousand acres? More? Kochi is making do
with 1300 acres. Bangalore and Hyderabad are going for the larger areas. The
latter (esp Bangalore) are also reportedly plagued by allegations of land
scams. How much money does Goa govt have for putting into Mopa? In a public
private partnership set up it may not need to put in that much e.g 26%. But
still, control will lie with the private partner. Does Goa want to have
problems again with the tail wagging the dog as at Dabolim? In the end
drawing the line between planning for bare necessities and premptively
positioning a virgin site for a futuristic urban agglomeration may be a
black art. I sometimes wonder if Goa govt has what it takes. Let's hope for
the best!
gerry ferns
2005-06-23 14:55:57 UTC
Permalink
"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas,
which are discernible to my limited and UNTUTORED
perception:
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in
Goa.
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
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Nasci Caldeira
2005-06-24 05:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Hello Gerry,

Your attack on Phillip Thomas' above mentioned article, is unwarranted. I
beg to differ completely on your so called "Fallacies List".
You have only made (false) statements and you presume that goanetters are
gullible, to take your statements as fact! Well I am not; and please read me
further down.
From: gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Goanet]Blindspot In Meaningful Aviation Planning
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 05:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
FALLACIES
a}that military and civilian uses are mutually
incompatible/exclusive.
Nasci:
For 'efficiency and streamlining operations', they are incompatible and
should be exclusive; only in the emergency of war, all such facilities will
come under the control of the war machine.
b}that military and civilian aspects of national
security are seperate, hermetic compartments.
Nasci: It is correct that these be seperate!
c}that development of another airport in North Goa
would neccessarily eat into the tourism pie of Goa.
Nasci:
The Mopa Aoirport will certainly eat into the tourism pie of Goa; definitely
so!
d}that if the airport in Mopa also massages
development in Maharashtra,it would be against the
interests of India.
Nasci:
It will not be against the interest of India, but will certainly be
completely against the interest of South Goa, Middle Goa and Eastern Goa,
that will remain underdeveloped!
e}that Managements of Hotels in South Goa are so
ossified/fossilised ,that they would be completely
unable to respond to the changing Aviation scenario in Goa.
Nasci:
They will certainly not be able to respond and will in time 'go bankrupt';
and many of the residents of South Goa will loose jobs and business a
plenty. It can and will soon become a 'backward area; Such will be impact of
Mopa on South Goa!
f} that the citizens of India residing in SOUTH GOA,
have greater priority than citizens of India residing
in NORTH GOA, to infrastructure,employment
-generation,business opportunities, accessibility and
convenience.
Nasci:
No! In the case of Mopa, its the residents of North Goa alone who will have
good access and priveledge; where as in the case of Dabolim, ALL the people
of Goa, North, South, and East, already have equal access and priveledge
etc. Besides, the Dabolim Airport location etc has already made it a
'tremendous airport! All the infrastucture servicing the airport is close at
hand; the roads etc are already there; and the Terminal and other
infrastructure facilities can be further beefed up, at a fraction of the
cost involved with Mopa! Only the 'Naval Air' has to move either to Sea Bird
or to Mopa; Let the Navy build and use Mopa airport if at all!
g}that the Tourism Industry has yet not factored the
prospect of the airport in North Goa in their business
plans ,and are yet to take off the block in terms of
accquiring land in North Goa in the vicinity of the
Airport to further their business prospects in Goa.
Nasci:
The Tourism Dept. should never acquire land etc. in North Goa/ Pernem. Let
the Navy do the acquisition for the Mopa Airport, for their use, if at all!
h}that hotel businessess currently operating in SOUTH
GOA have a "divine"/inalienable right to control every
variable in the business environment that might even
remotely impact their business.
Nasci:
What rubbish are you saying? We are talking of all Goans; it's you who is
talking only for Pernem residents! You seem to have a vested interest in
land in North Goa! Is this true?
j}that the YOUTH in North Goa, have no stake
whatsoever in the EMPLOYMENT GENERATING CAPACITY OF
THE AIRPORT IN MOPA.
Nasci:
These are your words! If you are 'Youth' than you are mistaken youth! Open
your eyes, and see how big the world is.
k}that the new airport in MOPA is out of SYNC with the
National Aviation Policy.
l}that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS
QUO and not build another Airport in North Goa, as
this would be against the interests of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.
Nasci:
This is true! If funds, private or Govt. are diverted to Mopa; then Dabolim
will be neglected and the "Youth of Goa'' who you seem to be vouching for,
will be the worst sufferers!
Sell the Dabolim Airport to the private sector and build it up and let the
Naval Air acquire lane at Mopa and develop the same' if they so need it.
COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET
NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nasci:
Gerry, I hate to say this! But it is you who is trying to pass off 'Urine'
as wine!
Think well and truly for all of Goa and support the efforts of PhillipThomas
and myself.
Phillip Thomas is thinking of all of Goa and all of India too; very much
unlike you.

Cheers!

Nasci Caldeira
Melbourne.
Philip Thomas
2005-06-24 07:55:42 UTC
Permalink
<"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear". And so on it can go
on. Since I am sufficiently stimulated by the loud
talk of the Article into NOT wanting to be categorised
as" ,,,none so dumb as those who refuse to speak", I
am constrained to FOCUS attention to some of the
FALLACIES underying the viewpoint of Mr Philip Thomas, which are discernible
to my limited and UNTUTORED perception:...>[gerry ferns, June 23]

Welcome to the discussion about aviation in Goa! Wish you had spoken up
earlier these past few months. The disconnect might have been a little less.
But better late than never, as they say! Hope you will find time to
familiarise yourself with the archives before jumping to conclusions again
on this subject.

Your post can basically be carved into three parts. The bulk of it, items
(c) to (k), is a forceful justification for an airport at Mopa. My quick
reaction is that I agree with you 100% on these 9 specific points. The only
trouble is, of late nobody (least of all yours truly) is questioning the
need for Mopa! So all you have succeeded in doing is demolishing a straw man
which might be a source of great satisfaction anyway.

The other problem is that your post is such an elaborate justification for
Mopa that you have left yourself open to criticism about a 'blind spot',
specifically, your apparent blind spot about the role of the miltary in the
constraints faced by Dabolim in particular and civil aviation in India in
general. All I will say for the time being is that it doesnt help to make
"mother hood statements" such as under items (a) and (b). The onus of proof
about effective dual use and integrated security is on the military and not
for civilians to accept as gospel from them. In my books, the Air Force
seems to be visibly demonstrating much more flexibility at Pune than the
Navy is showing in Dabolim! Maybe the concentrated industry lobby there is
much more potent than the fragmented tourism and travel lobby here. If you
have concrete information regarding Dabolim pls do feel free to share it.

This brings me to the final point at (l) in which you have said:
<l}[Fallacy] that it is utterly neccessary to protect the STATUS QUO and not
build another Airport in North Goa, as this would be against the interests
of ALL
GOANS/INDIANS.

COME ON MR THOMAS RESPECT THE READERS OF GOANET.LET NOT MILK BE PASSED OFF
AS SEASONED WINE!!!!!!!!!!!! >

You have to come clean and say whether you want Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an international tourist attraction.

P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-25 07:26:15 UTC
Permalink
The Gerry chap and a few are sons, relations or have
taken part in the invasion of Goa. Dabolim for them
should continue being a part of the spoils. This is
not tyranny innit?

B. Colaco
Post by Philip Thomas
You have to come clean and say whether you want
Dabolim to continue with
civilian flights ( remember your own rhetoric about
dual use?) or whether
you want to relinquish Dabolim to the Navy for
interminable training of
carrier based pilots in the heart of an
international tourist attraction.
P.S. If you see milk as wine you may have a real
problem of visual acuity!
Cheers!
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Sucheta Dalal
2005-06-25 18:04:01 UTC
Permalink
So many well meaning and useful groups degenerate rapidly because participants
refuse debate with politeness. I am sorry to jump into a Goa issue, but surely
Mr.Ferns, we would all have benefited with some clear and temperate analysis
that does not ascribe motives to Phi Thomas.

I thought that the point made by Mr.Thomas are extremely relevant. I don't see
any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for this lavish
infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us who are stupid
enough to pay our taxes regularly).

Secondly, I don't see why the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to
Karwar, which is just as beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-
spinning tourist destination. And the Dabolim airport opened up for
development and better infrastructure.

I am really keen on hearing your views -- hopefully without the sarcasm.

best
Sucheta

gerry ferns <gerry_ferns at yahoo.com> wrote:

"SPECK IN THE OTHERS EYE,IGNORING THE MOTE IN YOUR
OWN"

With utmost respect I beg to submit that 'there are
none so blind as those who refuse to see, and none so
deaf as those who refuse to hear".
Philip Thomas
2005-06-26 07:43:19 UTC
Permalink
< I don't see any need for a second airport at Goa (after all, money for
this lavish infrastructure comes from we, the people Especially those of us
who are stupid enough to pay our taxes regularly). Secondly, I don't see why
the Navy's pilot training cannot be shifted to Karwar, which is just as
beautiful ( I am a half Karwari) but not a money-spinning tourist
destination.>[Sucheta Dalal, June 25]

I would like to respond to these two points in reverse order as I believe
Dabolim is primary and Mopa is secondary.

1. Any objective review is bound to show that the Navy really has no
business in Dabolim any more. But they dont seem to be amenable, in the
least, to discussion or persuasion. I have concluded that their professional
(as opposed to personal) mindset allows them only to take orders. In other
words, they will budge from Dabolim only if ordered to do so! So the
question that follows is: whose orders will they take? This is the million
dollar question.

I feel that Dabolim is not an isolated case in the aviation scenario. Kochi,
Bangalore and Pune, to my knowledge, all had similar problems of turf. The
way out in the first two cases was to build greenfield airports and effect
the "clean separation" some have advocated. This is the traditional approach
we are up against as that is what people have come to expect in this kind of
a situation.

However, in the case of Pune, the Air Force has recently shown some
commendable flexibility and agreed to the needs for 40% more watch hours for
civilian flights w.e.f. Aug 1. But Pune also has a Plan B: viz a greenfield
airport at Chakan. Will civilian flights continue at Lohegaon once Chakan is
ready in a few years time? This is what we want at Dabolim.. an easing up by
the Navy at Dabolim and a continuation of civilian flights when Mopa comes
up (see below).

Joint civilian /military flights necessitate effective joint management, not
the step motherly treatment the Navy is extending as at present. As a result
of the latter people (like Sucheta) either do not seem to realise that the
Navy is actually controlling Dabolim or they feel that the present
conditions there may be solely due to the stupidity of the airlines and AAI.

I have found that in Hawaii there is supposed to be effective joint
management of the international airport and air force base both of which
consequently function as an integrated facility. Why cant this model be
followed in spirit at least at Dabolim and other important air bases/air
ports?

In the U.S they have also had what is called Base Realignment And Closure
(BRAC) reviews periodically over the past 10-20 years to evaluate the
military value of facilities as times change and effect necessary
alterations in their configuration . A big one was completed only recently
(last month in fact). It seems jointness (as between the three or four
military wings) was stressed this time for the sake of synergy and economy.

Given the unanticipated pressure posed by low cost civil aviation on our
meagre airport infrastructure, this may be the best opportunity to press for
a similar high level review of air bases in India including Dabolim. This
review must be launched and implemented before the pressure on airport
infrastructure is relieved by the planned modernisation of Mumbai and Delhi
and 30 nonmetro airports. This gives us a window of only about 3-5 years
depending on the extent to which low cost aviation takes off in India.

Dabolim may indeed be a tough nut to crack but a serious effort needs to be
made by all concerned especially now.

2. As stated at the outset, Mopa is secondary. It is necessary but not at
the cost of losing Dabolim to knee jerk aviation policy. Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not upfront planning and
investment especially by the state. The trouble is politicians get
mesmerised by high falutin plans and power point presentations and saddle
the people with white elephants while builders, promoters and their ilk
laugh all the way to the bank.

I greatly appreciate the opportunity to dilate on the issue of Goa's
aviation situation. I thank Sucheta Dalal for her valuable interest and
support and fellow goanetters for shaping my thinking on the subject over
the past several months.
Gabriel de Figueiredo
2005-06-27 09:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Thomas
Besides the basic
issue here is what kind of airport is planned at
Mopa -- whether a
futuristic "Taj Mahal for A380s" taking 10-15 years
to start or a cheap and
cheerful one from which low cost airlines can
operate, pronto. I firmly
believe that it is only the latter which is needed
at Mopa for the
foreseeable future. The emphasis should be on
runways, control towers,
parking bays and perimeter fencing -- not
concourses, shopping malls, golf
courses, convention centres, amusement parks and the
like. The latter should
be a matter of evolution in the natural course not
upfront planning and
investment especially by the state.
Hi Philip,

I hate to disagree with you, but I don't think that is
quite the way to go. I have observed that often, when
one plans small and builds small, the surounding
"vacuum" is quickly filled with constructions (legal
or illegal), making future expansion impossible.

No - the way to go is to plan for all the shopping
malls, restaurants, rest areas (toilets / showers /
gyms / relaxation chairs) and car parks, large aprons
(capable of handling giants not only like A380, but
also larger aircraft of the future), and utilities
required to handle the larger capacities. Perhaps the
air-conditioning system should be in duplicate, seeing
the number of times I have sweated it out at Mumbai
airport. I have always erred on the side of caution in
quoting how long a project will take, by multiplying
what I expect by 1.5. A similar approach ought to be
used when planning for the future, spacewise.

Too often I note that Indian shops and malls are small
crowded affairs. Tourists are not often used to
having too small a personal space, and will keep clear
of such crowded spaces. Therefore, any malls and
shopping areas ought to be planned for sufficiently
large spaces, so also the check-in and baggage
reclamation areas.

Passengers ought to be able to have their near and
dear ones with them upto and until entering the
immigration area, which means that once check-in is
completed, passengers should be able to rest and have
a snack/chat with their dear ones. These facilities
are available at Heathrow, Gatwick, Melbourne etc as
well as at regional ones like Canberra (yes it is a
rather small airport) and Coolangatta (Gold Coast).
In India, this is not possible, even at the airport in
Mumbai.

Note that planning is one thing, designing is another,
and implementation is quite another thing altogether.
Therefore, the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small".

I thoroughly agree with you that one should start
small. However, plans for the "larger picture" ought
to be put on paper, to preserve the real-estate and to
provide a basis for requesting/allocating funds in
future years.

The only issues in this exposition are the
politicians, as you state in the following paras. They
will want to leave their "mark" (just as a dog does
whichever new place it visits), before their term in
office ends, which, in Goa's case, could be pretty
short.

P.S. As an aside, most roads in Melbourne were planned
/ designed a century ago; however, there were
provisions made for tram tracks and railway lines even
then; the place were I now stay was a farm paddock
then and the then tram track stopped just outside the
paddock; over the years (including the last eight),
the tram track has been expanded a number of kms
further now without causing any issues with motor
traffic or housing. There is scope to expand the same
even further, and will be done probably when those
areas get a sizable population. This is what planning
is all about.

Cheers,

Gabriel de Figueiredo.
Melbourne - Australia.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Bernado Colaco
2005-06-27 11:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Souza,

Kindly note that "Our" Goa government is a mere puppet
and can not take any effective action. It is guys like
you and the quiet ones to lend their voices on this
issue.

I wonder if Goanet could conduct a poll on their
website regarding this topic: "Should the indian navy
get out of Dabolim?".

Kind regards

B. Colaco
--- Aloysius D'Souza <aloysius at bom1.vsnl.net.in>
Post by Aloysius D'Souza
airport.
Maybe with your voice added to those of Goans
internationally we may be able to make "OUR" Goa
government see sense.
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Philip Thomas
2005-06-27 21:45:47 UTC
Permalink
<the motto to be followed, imho, is "plan
big, build small". I thoroughly agree with you that one should start small.
However, plans for the "larger picture" ought to be put on paper, to
preserve the real-estate and to provide a basis for requesting/allocating
funds in
future years. >[Gabriel de Figueiredo, June 27]

Fine. Let's try to put some numbers on this exercise, just to get a handle
on things. What should be the purpose of Mopa? It seems the rules may only
permit a domestic airport not an international one. This does not rule out
A380s, however, because airlines like Air Deccan are pushing Airbus for
short haul versions accommodating as many as 800 passengers! What are the
chances this will be feasible? Next question: how much land should be fenced
off for starters? 1500 acres? 4-5 thousand acres? More? Kochi is making do
with 1300 acres. Bangalore and Hyderabad are going for the larger areas. The
latter (esp Bangalore) are also reportedly plagued by allegations of land
scams. How much money does Goa govt have for putting into Mopa? In a public
private partnership set up it may not need to put in that much e.g 26%. But
still, control will lie with the private partner. Does Goa want to have
problems again with the tail wagging the dog as at Dabolim? In the end
drawing the line between planning for bare necessities and premptively
positioning a virgin site for a futuristic urban agglomeration may be a
black art. I sometimes wonder if Goa govt has what it takes. Let's hope for
the best!

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