Discussion:
The folly of frog filleting
(too old to reply)
Arnold Noronha
2007-05-28 02:26:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
?Hi Arnold,

The crux is not so much the gastronomic delights of the amphibian
appendages as it is the wanton cruelty of the dispatch methods by
starvation due to disambulation (is that a legitimate big enough word
;-?)?.(ellipsis)..


This method of rendering food animals unconscious has now fallen out
of favour due to concerns about BSE but unfortunately still persists
in high school and university biology labs much to the apprehension of
animal rights activists.
http://www.frogsite.org/Anti_Pithing.html

However, they also are of the opinion that ANY vertebrate (and many
invertebrates with two neurons to synapse) have the capacity to
perceive discomfort enough to shy away from it. That, and the
inherent desire to survive, make fishing a despicable sport. (I
wonder what joy sport anglers get out of outwitting a brain many times
smaller than theirs, anyway.) ?



Dear Kevin:
Your learned and profound May 25 comments are appreciated. Yes, I admire
your humane attitude towards creatures other than man. As a biologist/doctor
you have your heart in the right place. The inhumane methods used to kill
animals by those of us who claim to be the image and likeness of God make us
guilty of blasphemy of sorts. Mind-boggling is the dilemma of killing and
maiming animals for food and research as required for Mankind?s survival and
at the same time making sure we don?t subject other species to unnecessary
pain and suffering. Yes, from Humankind?s point of view, all creatures
inhabiting this Planet are part of Creation or Evolution(as you will) and
thus entitled to some consideration unless they?re a direct threat to our
existence.
I?m an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You?re absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don?t think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler?s real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it?s amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It?s
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I?m trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.

Regards
Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-28 23:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arnold,

With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
next week or so. However, I am honoured to be placed in the same
league as the esteemed Dr. Helekar who stands head and shoulders above
me when debating scientific minutia. If Thomas Huxley was known as
Darwin's Bulldog and the current champion of evolutionary thought,
Richard Dawkins is called Darwin's Rottweiler, then I would propose
Santosh be given the title of Darwin's Pitbull (after the legendary
fighting dog which locks onto it's victim) and I will accept being
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )

Having lived most of my life as a meat-eater and belonging to a
profession that has manipulated the physiological processes of
domesticated animals for a living in the interest of providing us with
animal proteins, the almost fanatical compassion towards sentient
beings by the Buddhists and Jains was incomprehensible. But after
converting to vegetarianism about 5 years ago, I began to make the
connection between the meat on my plate and the dominion over the
creatures of the earth that humankind was granted by their
Benevolent(?) Creator. Vegans are considered by many to be unhealthy
tree-huggers with a couple of screws loose for their obsessive
avoidance of all things of animal (and even insect ie. honey) origin.
But some of the most enlightened people of modern times were aware of
the great price animal exploitation and harvesting exacted on the
psyche of the human 'soul'. Several sites maintain lists of prominent
vegetarians eg. http://www.veganwolf.com/famous_vegetarians.htm In
fact, one of my favourite quotes comes from the father of our great
nation, the Mahatma was of the opinion that "The greatness of a nation
and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are
treated". Our tired morality has somehow been preoccupied with
matters sexual.

Those who are interested in this topic should beg, borrow or steal a
copy of Matthew Scully's book "Dominion: The Power of Men, the
Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy'
http://www.matthewscully.com/ The connection between vegetarianism
and religion (NOT just Hinduism) has been well documented.
http://www.ivu.org/religion/ However, it (predominantly the
monotheism of Christianity) has also been used to justify meat
consumption and the factory farming we are now seeing mushrooming out
of control in the west. It's impact on all aspects of life from the
health of the individual to international economy (particularly of
third world poverty) to the health of the planet have been elucidated
for decades to no avail. The fishing industry is not immune to
criticism based on the damage mechanized trawlers are doing to fish
stocks around the world. This was the main topic of a recent issue of
the National Geographic magazine. It is astounding to learn of the
amount of 'bycatch' that is discarded in the harvesting of our beloved
prawns.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/feature1/gallery4.html
If you have a high speed connection you MUST watch this compilation on NGS.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/sights_n_sounds/index.html

And on the compassion front, stores like Bass Pro
http://www.basspro.com/ are doing booming business (competing with the
mega churches for disposable incomes ;-) by pandering to our base
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.

Sadly....

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
Post by Arnold Noronha
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
I'm an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You're absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don't think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler's real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it's amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It's
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I'm trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.
Regards
Arnold
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Gabe Menezes
2007-05-29 09:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
Hi Arnold,
With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
................................................and I will accept being
Post by Arnold Noronha
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )......................
base
Post by Arnold Noronha
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.
Sadly....
Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

I have come out as a St. Bernard, although I have owned several Guard
dogs in Kenya, a Rottweiller in Hongkong and London, my last dog being
a 50 Kg long haired Japanese Akita.

This is what the tickle site had to say....:

GABE, you're a St. Bernard!

No bones about it, you're a dedicated, trustworthy St. Bernard. Loyal
and good-hearted, you're as reliable as they come. Your naturally
protective personality is reflected in the way you treat people close
to you. Sheltering your nearest and dearest from harm (or bad news,
for that matter) is high on your priority list. That attitude earns
you lots of gold stars, not to mention respect. People admire your
strong morals ? and how well you stick to them! Focused, steadfast,
and determined, you always aim to please. It's a breed like yours that
makes the world a better place ? woof!

I was totally flattered with that !
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2007-05-29 09:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
Hi Arnold,
With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
................................................and I will accept being
Post by Arnold Noronha
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )......................
base
Post by Arnold Noronha
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.
Sadly....
Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

I have come out as a St. Bernard, although I have owned several Guard
dogs in Kenya, a Rottweiller in Hongkong and London, my last dog being
a 50 Kg long haired Japanese Akita.

This is what the tickle site had to say....:

GABE, you're a St. Bernard!

No bones about it, you're a dedicated, trustworthy St. Bernard. Loyal
and good-hearted, you're as reliable as they come. Your naturally
protective personality is reflected in the way you treat people close
to you. Sheltering your nearest and dearest from harm (or bad news,
for that matter) is high on your priority list. That attitude earns
you lots of gold stars, not to mention respect. People admire your
strong morals ? and how well you stick to them! Focused, steadfast,
and determined, you always aim to please. It's a breed like yours that
makes the world a better place ? woof!

I was totally flattered with that !
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2007-05-29 09:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
Hi Arnold,
With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
................................................and I will accept being
Post by Arnold Noronha
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )......................
base
Post by Arnold Noronha
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.
Sadly....
Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

I have come out as a St. Bernard, although I have owned several Guard
dogs in Kenya, a Rottweiller in Hongkong and London, my last dog being
a 50 Kg long haired Japanese Akita.

This is what the tickle site had to say....:

GABE, you're a St. Bernard!

No bones about it, you're a dedicated, trustworthy St. Bernard. Loyal
and good-hearted, you're as reliable as they come. Your naturally
protective personality is reflected in the way you treat people close
to you. Sheltering your nearest and dearest from harm (or bad news,
for that matter) is high on your priority list. That attitude earns
you lots of gold stars, not to mention respect. People admire your
strong morals ? and how well you stick to them! Focused, steadfast,
and determined, you always aim to please. It's a breed like yours that
makes the world a better place ? woof!

I was totally flattered with that !
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2007-05-29 09:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
Hi Arnold,
With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
................................................and I will accept being
Post by Arnold Noronha
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )......................
base
Post by Arnold Noronha
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.
Sadly....
Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

I have come out as a St. Bernard, although I have owned several Guard
dogs in Kenya, a Rottweiller in Hongkong and London, my last dog being
a 50 Kg long haired Japanese Akita.

This is what the tickle site had to say....:

GABE, you're a St. Bernard!

No bones about it, you're a dedicated, trustworthy St. Bernard. Loyal
and good-hearted, you're as reliable as they come. Your naturally
protective personality is reflected in the way you treat people close
to you. Sheltering your nearest and dearest from harm (or bad news,
for that matter) is high on your priority list. That attitude earns
you lots of gold stars, not to mention respect. People admire your
strong morals ? and how well you stick to them! Focused, steadfast,
and determined, you always aim to please. It's a breed like yours that
makes the world a better place ? woof!

I was totally flattered with that !
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2007-05-29 09:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
Hi Arnold,
With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
................................................and I will accept being
Post by Arnold Noronha
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )......................
base
Post by Arnold Noronha
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.
Sadly....
Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

I have come out as a St. Bernard, although I have owned several Guard
dogs in Kenya, a Rottweiller in Hongkong and London, my last dog being
a 50 Kg long haired Japanese Akita.

This is what the tickle site had to say....:

GABE, you're a St. Bernard!

No bones about it, you're a dedicated, trustworthy St. Bernard. Loyal
and good-hearted, you're as reliable as they come. Your naturally
protective personality is reflected in the way you treat people close
to you. Sheltering your nearest and dearest from harm (or bad news,
for that matter) is high on your priority list. That attitude earns
you lots of gold stars, not to mention respect. People admire your
strong morals ? and how well you stick to them! Focused, steadfast,
and determined, you always aim to please. It's a breed like yours that
makes the world a better place ? woof!

I was totally flattered with that !
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2007-05-29 09:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
Hi Arnold,
With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
................................................and I will accept being
Post by Arnold Noronha
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )......................
base
Post by Arnold Noronha
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.
Sadly....
Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

I have come out as a St. Bernard, although I have owned several Guard
dogs in Kenya, a Rottweiller in Hongkong and London, my last dog being
a 50 Kg long haired Japanese Akita.

This is what the tickle site had to say....:

GABE, you're a St. Bernard!

No bones about it, you're a dedicated, trustworthy St. Bernard. Loyal
and good-hearted, you're as reliable as they come. Your naturally
protective personality is reflected in the way you treat people close
to you. Sheltering your nearest and dearest from harm (or bad news,
for that matter) is high on your priority list. That attitude earns
you lots of gold stars, not to mention respect. People admire your
strong morals ? and how well you stick to them! Focused, steadfast,
and determined, you always aim to please. It's a breed like yours that
makes the world a better place ? woof!

I was totally flattered with that !
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2007-05-29 09:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arnold Noronha
Hi Arnold,
With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
................................................and I will accept being
Post by Arnold Noronha
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )......................
base
Post by Arnold Noronha
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.
Sadly....
Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

I have come out as a St. Bernard, although I have owned several Guard
dogs in Kenya, a Rottweiller in Hongkong and London, my last dog being
a 50 Kg long haired Japanese Akita.

This is what the tickle site had to say....:

GABE, you're a St. Bernard!

No bones about it, you're a dedicated, trustworthy St. Bernard. Loyal
and good-hearted, you're as reliable as they come. Your naturally
protective personality is reflected in the way you treat people close
to you. Sheltering your nearest and dearest from harm (or bad news,
for that matter) is high on your priority list. That attitude earns
you lots of gold stars, not to mention respect. People admire your
strong morals ? and how well you stick to them! Focused, steadfast,
and determined, you always aim to please. It's a breed like yours that
makes the world a better place ? woof!

I was totally flattered with that !
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-29 20:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gabe,

I too have heard that story that was started by a polygraphist, Cleve
Backster and has been propagated ever since by a multitude of
hucksters to neurobiologically naive and god-fearing meat-eaters.
http://skepdic.com/plants.html

The prudence of eating sentient vegetables would be the same prudence
you must exert when deciding whether to eat artificially enhanced (by
antibiotics, growth hormones and genetic manipulation) animal muscle.
If there was any kind of centralized neurological system in plants
that made them aware of their surroundings and responsive to them as
an earthworm which squirms helplessly when impaled onto a fishing
hook, we would need to muster our philosophical minds as to what would
be the best source of nutrition for our survival. Yanking tubers and
other root vegetables out of the ground would kill the plant and
thereby cause death of a living individual.

This logic has found favour with a group of vegetarians who will not
eat anything part of a plant or tree on which it depends on for it's
survival. They are known as Fruitarians not only for their philosophy
but also for the source of their sustenance.
http://www.thenewearth.org/fruitext.html

Sincerely,

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.

Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:22:50 +0100
From: "Gabe Menezes" <gabe.menezes at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] The folly of frog filleting

COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Arnold Noronha
2007-05-28 02:26:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
?Hi Arnold,

The crux is not so much the gastronomic delights of the amphibian
appendages as it is the wanton cruelty of the dispatch methods by
starvation due to disambulation (is that a legitimate big enough word
;-?)?.(ellipsis)..


This method of rendering food animals unconscious has now fallen out
of favour due to concerns about BSE but unfortunately still persists
in high school and university biology labs much to the apprehension of
animal rights activists.
http://www.frogsite.org/Anti_Pithing.html

However, they also are of the opinion that ANY vertebrate (and many
invertebrates with two neurons to synapse) have the capacity to
perceive discomfort enough to shy away from it. That, and the
inherent desire to survive, make fishing a despicable sport. (I
wonder what joy sport anglers get out of outwitting a brain many times
smaller than theirs, anyway.) ?



Dear Kevin:
Your learned and profound May 25 comments are appreciated. Yes, I admire
your humane attitude towards creatures other than man. As a biologist/doctor
you have your heart in the right place. The inhumane methods used to kill
animals by those of us who claim to be the image and likeness of God make us
guilty of blasphemy of sorts. Mind-boggling is the dilemma of killing and
maiming animals for food and research as required for Mankind?s survival and
at the same time making sure we don?t subject other species to unnecessary
pain and suffering. Yes, from Humankind?s point of view, all creatures
inhabiting this Planet are part of Creation or Evolution(as you will) and
thus entitled to some consideration unless they?re a direct threat to our
existence.
I?m an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You?re absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don?t think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler?s real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it?s amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It?s
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I?m trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.

Regards
Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-28 23:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arnold,

With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
next week or so. However, I am honoured to be placed in the same
league as the esteemed Dr. Helekar who stands head and shoulders above
me when debating scientific minutia. If Thomas Huxley was known as
Darwin's Bulldog and the current champion of evolutionary thought,
Richard Dawkins is called Darwin's Rottweiler, then I would propose
Santosh be given the title of Darwin's Pitbull (after the legendary
fighting dog which locks onto it's victim) and I will accept being
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )

Having lived most of my life as a meat-eater and belonging to a
profession that has manipulated the physiological processes of
domesticated animals for a living in the interest of providing us with
animal proteins, the almost fanatical compassion towards sentient
beings by the Buddhists and Jains was incomprehensible. But after
converting to vegetarianism about 5 years ago, I began to make the
connection between the meat on my plate and the dominion over the
creatures of the earth that humankind was granted by their
Benevolent(?) Creator. Vegans are considered by many to be unhealthy
tree-huggers with a couple of screws loose for their obsessive
avoidance of all things of animal (and even insect ie. honey) origin.
But some of the most enlightened people of modern times were aware of
the great price animal exploitation and harvesting exacted on the
psyche of the human 'soul'. Several sites maintain lists of prominent
vegetarians eg. http://www.veganwolf.com/famous_vegetarians.htm In
fact, one of my favourite quotes comes from the father of our great
nation, the Mahatma was of the opinion that "The greatness of a nation
and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are
treated". Our tired morality has somehow been preoccupied with
matters sexual.

Those who are interested in this topic should beg, borrow or steal a
copy of Matthew Scully's book "Dominion: The Power of Men, the
Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy'
http://www.matthewscully.com/ The connection between vegetarianism
and religion (NOT just Hinduism) has been well documented.
http://www.ivu.org/religion/ However, it (predominantly the
monotheism of Christianity) has also been used to justify meat
consumption and the factory farming we are now seeing mushrooming out
of control in the west. It's impact on all aspects of life from the
health of the individual to international economy (particularly of
third world poverty) to the health of the planet have been elucidated
for decades to no avail. The fishing industry is not immune to
criticism based on the damage mechanized trawlers are doing to fish
stocks around the world. This was the main topic of a recent issue of
the National Geographic magazine. It is astounding to learn of the
amount of 'bycatch' that is discarded in the harvesting of our beloved
prawns.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/feature1/gallery4.html
If you have a high speed connection you MUST watch this compilation on NGS.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/sights_n_sounds/index.html

And on the compassion front, stores like Bass Pro
http://www.basspro.com/ are doing booming business (competing with the
mega churches for disposable incomes ;-) by pandering to our base
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.

Sadly....

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
Post by Arnold Noronha
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
I'm an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You're absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don't think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler's real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it's amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It's
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I'm trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.
Regards
Arnold
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-29 20:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gabe,

I too have heard that story that was started by a polygraphist, Cleve
Backster and has been propagated ever since by a multitude of
hucksters to neurobiologically naive and god-fearing meat-eaters.
http://skepdic.com/plants.html

The prudence of eating sentient vegetables would be the same prudence
you must exert when deciding whether to eat artificially enhanced (by
antibiotics, growth hormones and genetic manipulation) animal muscle.
If there was any kind of centralized neurological system in plants
that made them aware of their surroundings and responsive to them as
an earthworm which squirms helplessly when impaled onto a fishing
hook, we would need to muster our philosophical minds as to what would
be the best source of nutrition for our survival. Yanking tubers and
other root vegetables out of the ground would kill the plant and
thereby cause death of a living individual.

This logic has found favour with a group of vegetarians who will not
eat anything part of a plant or tree on which it depends on for it's
survival. They are known as Fruitarians not only for their philosophy
but also for the source of their sustenance.
http://www.thenewearth.org/fruitext.html

Sincerely,

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.

Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:22:50 +0100
From: "Gabe Menezes" <gabe.menezes at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] The folly of frog filleting

COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Arnold Noronha
2007-05-28 02:26:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
?Hi Arnold,

The crux is not so much the gastronomic delights of the amphibian
appendages as it is the wanton cruelty of the dispatch methods by
starvation due to disambulation (is that a legitimate big enough word
;-?)?.(ellipsis)..


This method of rendering food animals unconscious has now fallen out
of favour due to concerns about BSE but unfortunately still persists
in high school and university biology labs much to the apprehension of
animal rights activists.
http://www.frogsite.org/Anti_Pithing.html

However, they also are of the opinion that ANY vertebrate (and many
invertebrates with two neurons to synapse) have the capacity to
perceive discomfort enough to shy away from it. That, and the
inherent desire to survive, make fishing a despicable sport. (I
wonder what joy sport anglers get out of outwitting a brain many times
smaller than theirs, anyway.) ?



Dear Kevin:
Your learned and profound May 25 comments are appreciated. Yes, I admire
your humane attitude towards creatures other than man. As a biologist/doctor
you have your heart in the right place. The inhumane methods used to kill
animals by those of us who claim to be the image and likeness of God make us
guilty of blasphemy of sorts. Mind-boggling is the dilemma of killing and
maiming animals for food and research as required for Mankind?s survival and
at the same time making sure we don?t subject other species to unnecessary
pain and suffering. Yes, from Humankind?s point of view, all creatures
inhabiting this Planet are part of Creation or Evolution(as you will) and
thus entitled to some consideration unless they?re a direct threat to our
existence.
I?m an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You?re absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don?t think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler?s real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it?s amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It?s
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I?m trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.

Regards
Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-28 23:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arnold,

With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
next week or so. However, I am honoured to be placed in the same
league as the esteemed Dr. Helekar who stands head and shoulders above
me when debating scientific minutia. If Thomas Huxley was known as
Darwin's Bulldog and the current champion of evolutionary thought,
Richard Dawkins is called Darwin's Rottweiler, then I would propose
Santosh be given the title of Darwin's Pitbull (after the legendary
fighting dog which locks onto it's victim) and I will accept being
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )

Having lived most of my life as a meat-eater and belonging to a
profession that has manipulated the physiological processes of
domesticated animals for a living in the interest of providing us with
animal proteins, the almost fanatical compassion towards sentient
beings by the Buddhists and Jains was incomprehensible. But after
converting to vegetarianism about 5 years ago, I began to make the
connection between the meat on my plate and the dominion over the
creatures of the earth that humankind was granted by their
Benevolent(?) Creator. Vegans are considered by many to be unhealthy
tree-huggers with a couple of screws loose for their obsessive
avoidance of all things of animal (and even insect ie. honey) origin.
But some of the most enlightened people of modern times were aware of
the great price animal exploitation and harvesting exacted on the
psyche of the human 'soul'. Several sites maintain lists of prominent
vegetarians eg. http://www.veganwolf.com/famous_vegetarians.htm In
fact, one of my favourite quotes comes from the father of our great
nation, the Mahatma was of the opinion that "The greatness of a nation
and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are
treated". Our tired morality has somehow been preoccupied with
matters sexual.

Those who are interested in this topic should beg, borrow or steal a
copy of Matthew Scully's book "Dominion: The Power of Men, the
Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy'
http://www.matthewscully.com/ The connection between vegetarianism
and religion (NOT just Hinduism) has been well documented.
http://www.ivu.org/religion/ However, it (predominantly the
monotheism of Christianity) has also been used to justify meat
consumption and the factory farming we are now seeing mushrooming out
of control in the west. It's impact on all aspects of life from the
health of the individual to international economy (particularly of
third world poverty) to the health of the planet have been elucidated
for decades to no avail. The fishing industry is not immune to
criticism based on the damage mechanized trawlers are doing to fish
stocks around the world. This was the main topic of a recent issue of
the National Geographic magazine. It is astounding to learn of the
amount of 'bycatch' that is discarded in the harvesting of our beloved
prawns.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/feature1/gallery4.html
If you have a high speed connection you MUST watch this compilation on NGS.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/sights_n_sounds/index.html

And on the compassion front, stores like Bass Pro
http://www.basspro.com/ are doing booming business (competing with the
mega churches for disposable incomes ;-) by pandering to our base
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.

Sadly....

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
Post by Arnold Noronha
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
I'm an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You're absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don't think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler's real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it's amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It's
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I'm trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.
Regards
Arnold
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-29 20:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gabe,

I too have heard that story that was started by a polygraphist, Cleve
Backster and has been propagated ever since by a multitude of
hucksters to neurobiologically naive and god-fearing meat-eaters.
http://skepdic.com/plants.html

The prudence of eating sentient vegetables would be the same prudence
you must exert when deciding whether to eat artificially enhanced (by
antibiotics, growth hormones and genetic manipulation) animal muscle.
If there was any kind of centralized neurological system in plants
that made them aware of their surroundings and responsive to them as
an earthworm which squirms helplessly when impaled onto a fishing
hook, we would need to muster our philosophical minds as to what would
be the best source of nutrition for our survival. Yanking tubers and
other root vegetables out of the ground would kill the plant and
thereby cause death of a living individual.

This logic has found favour with a group of vegetarians who will not
eat anything part of a plant or tree on which it depends on for it's
survival. They are known as Fruitarians not only for their philosophy
but also for the source of their sustenance.
http://www.thenewearth.org/fruitext.html

Sincerely,

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.

Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:22:50 +0100
From: "Gabe Menezes" <gabe.menezes at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] The folly of frog filleting

COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Arnold Noronha
2007-05-28 02:26:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
?Hi Arnold,

The crux is not so much the gastronomic delights of the amphibian
appendages as it is the wanton cruelty of the dispatch methods by
starvation due to disambulation (is that a legitimate big enough word
;-?)?.(ellipsis)..


This method of rendering food animals unconscious has now fallen out
of favour due to concerns about BSE but unfortunately still persists
in high school and university biology labs much to the apprehension of
animal rights activists.
http://www.frogsite.org/Anti_Pithing.html

However, they also are of the opinion that ANY vertebrate (and many
invertebrates with two neurons to synapse) have the capacity to
perceive discomfort enough to shy away from it. That, and the
inherent desire to survive, make fishing a despicable sport. (I
wonder what joy sport anglers get out of outwitting a brain many times
smaller than theirs, anyway.) ?



Dear Kevin:
Your learned and profound May 25 comments are appreciated. Yes, I admire
your humane attitude towards creatures other than man. As a biologist/doctor
you have your heart in the right place. The inhumane methods used to kill
animals by those of us who claim to be the image and likeness of God make us
guilty of blasphemy of sorts. Mind-boggling is the dilemma of killing and
maiming animals for food and research as required for Mankind?s survival and
at the same time making sure we don?t subject other species to unnecessary
pain and suffering. Yes, from Humankind?s point of view, all creatures
inhabiting this Planet are part of Creation or Evolution(as you will) and
thus entitled to some consideration unless they?re a direct threat to our
existence.
I?m an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You?re absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don?t think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler?s real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it?s amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It?s
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I?m trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.

Regards
Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-28 23:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arnold,

With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
next week or so. However, I am honoured to be placed in the same
league as the esteemed Dr. Helekar who stands head and shoulders above
me when debating scientific minutia. If Thomas Huxley was known as
Darwin's Bulldog and the current champion of evolutionary thought,
Richard Dawkins is called Darwin's Rottweiler, then I would propose
Santosh be given the title of Darwin's Pitbull (after the legendary
fighting dog which locks onto it's victim) and I will accept being
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )

Having lived most of my life as a meat-eater and belonging to a
profession that has manipulated the physiological processes of
domesticated animals for a living in the interest of providing us with
animal proteins, the almost fanatical compassion towards sentient
beings by the Buddhists and Jains was incomprehensible. But after
converting to vegetarianism about 5 years ago, I began to make the
connection between the meat on my plate and the dominion over the
creatures of the earth that humankind was granted by their
Benevolent(?) Creator. Vegans are considered by many to be unhealthy
tree-huggers with a couple of screws loose for their obsessive
avoidance of all things of animal (and even insect ie. honey) origin.
But some of the most enlightened people of modern times were aware of
the great price animal exploitation and harvesting exacted on the
psyche of the human 'soul'. Several sites maintain lists of prominent
vegetarians eg. http://www.veganwolf.com/famous_vegetarians.htm In
fact, one of my favourite quotes comes from the father of our great
nation, the Mahatma was of the opinion that "The greatness of a nation
and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are
treated". Our tired morality has somehow been preoccupied with
matters sexual.

Those who are interested in this topic should beg, borrow or steal a
copy of Matthew Scully's book "Dominion: The Power of Men, the
Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy'
http://www.matthewscully.com/ The connection between vegetarianism
and religion (NOT just Hinduism) has been well documented.
http://www.ivu.org/religion/ However, it (predominantly the
monotheism of Christianity) has also been used to justify meat
consumption and the factory farming we are now seeing mushrooming out
of control in the west. It's impact on all aspects of life from the
health of the individual to international economy (particularly of
third world poverty) to the health of the planet have been elucidated
for decades to no avail. The fishing industry is not immune to
criticism based on the damage mechanized trawlers are doing to fish
stocks around the world. This was the main topic of a recent issue of
the National Geographic magazine. It is astounding to learn of the
amount of 'bycatch' that is discarded in the harvesting of our beloved
prawns.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/feature1/gallery4.html
If you have a high speed connection you MUST watch this compilation on NGS.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/sights_n_sounds/index.html

And on the compassion front, stores like Bass Pro
http://www.basspro.com/ are doing booming business (competing with the
mega churches for disposable incomes ;-) by pandering to our base
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.

Sadly....

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
Post by Arnold Noronha
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
I'm an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You're absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don't think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler's real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it's amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It's
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I'm trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.
Regards
Arnold
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-29 20:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gabe,

I too have heard that story that was started by a polygraphist, Cleve
Backster and has been propagated ever since by a multitude of
hucksters to neurobiologically naive and god-fearing meat-eaters.
http://skepdic.com/plants.html

The prudence of eating sentient vegetables would be the same prudence
you must exert when deciding whether to eat artificially enhanced (by
antibiotics, growth hormones and genetic manipulation) animal muscle.
If there was any kind of centralized neurological system in plants
that made them aware of their surroundings and responsive to them as
an earthworm which squirms helplessly when impaled onto a fishing
hook, we would need to muster our philosophical minds as to what would
be the best source of nutrition for our survival. Yanking tubers and
other root vegetables out of the ground would kill the plant and
thereby cause death of a living individual.

This logic has found favour with a group of vegetarians who will not
eat anything part of a plant or tree on which it depends on for it's
survival. They are known as Fruitarians not only for their philosophy
but also for the source of their sustenance.
http://www.thenewearth.org/fruitext.html

Sincerely,

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.

Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:22:50 +0100
From: "Gabe Menezes" <gabe.menezes at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] The folly of frog filleting

COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Arnold Noronha
2007-05-28 02:26:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
?Hi Arnold,

The crux is not so much the gastronomic delights of the amphibian
appendages as it is the wanton cruelty of the dispatch methods by
starvation due to disambulation (is that a legitimate big enough word
;-?)?.(ellipsis)..


This method of rendering food animals unconscious has now fallen out
of favour due to concerns about BSE but unfortunately still persists
in high school and university biology labs much to the apprehension of
animal rights activists.
http://www.frogsite.org/Anti_Pithing.html

However, they also are of the opinion that ANY vertebrate (and many
invertebrates with two neurons to synapse) have the capacity to
perceive discomfort enough to shy away from it. That, and the
inherent desire to survive, make fishing a despicable sport. (I
wonder what joy sport anglers get out of outwitting a brain many times
smaller than theirs, anyway.) ?



Dear Kevin:
Your learned and profound May 25 comments are appreciated. Yes, I admire
your humane attitude towards creatures other than man. As a biologist/doctor
you have your heart in the right place. The inhumane methods used to kill
animals by those of us who claim to be the image and likeness of God make us
guilty of blasphemy of sorts. Mind-boggling is the dilemma of killing and
maiming animals for food and research as required for Mankind?s survival and
at the same time making sure we don?t subject other species to unnecessary
pain and suffering. Yes, from Humankind?s point of view, all creatures
inhabiting this Planet are part of Creation or Evolution(as you will) and
thus entitled to some consideration unless they?re a direct threat to our
existence.
I?m an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You?re absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don?t think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler?s real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it?s amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It?s
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I?m trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.

Regards
Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-28 23:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arnold,

With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
next week or so. However, I am honoured to be placed in the same
league as the esteemed Dr. Helekar who stands head and shoulders above
me when debating scientific minutia. If Thomas Huxley was known as
Darwin's Bulldog and the current champion of evolutionary thought,
Richard Dawkins is called Darwin's Rottweiler, then I would propose
Santosh be given the title of Darwin's Pitbull (after the legendary
fighting dog which locks onto it's victim) and I will accept being
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )

Having lived most of my life as a meat-eater and belonging to a
profession that has manipulated the physiological processes of
domesticated animals for a living in the interest of providing us with
animal proteins, the almost fanatical compassion towards sentient
beings by the Buddhists and Jains was incomprehensible. But after
converting to vegetarianism about 5 years ago, I began to make the
connection between the meat on my plate and the dominion over the
creatures of the earth that humankind was granted by their
Benevolent(?) Creator. Vegans are considered by many to be unhealthy
tree-huggers with a couple of screws loose for their obsessive
avoidance of all things of animal (and even insect ie. honey) origin.
But some of the most enlightened people of modern times were aware of
the great price animal exploitation and harvesting exacted on the
psyche of the human 'soul'. Several sites maintain lists of prominent
vegetarians eg. http://www.veganwolf.com/famous_vegetarians.htm In
fact, one of my favourite quotes comes from the father of our great
nation, the Mahatma was of the opinion that "The greatness of a nation
and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are
treated". Our tired morality has somehow been preoccupied with
matters sexual.

Those who are interested in this topic should beg, borrow or steal a
copy of Matthew Scully's book "Dominion: The Power of Men, the
Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy'
http://www.matthewscully.com/ The connection between vegetarianism
and religion (NOT just Hinduism) has been well documented.
http://www.ivu.org/religion/ However, it (predominantly the
monotheism of Christianity) has also been used to justify meat
consumption and the factory farming we are now seeing mushrooming out
of control in the west. It's impact on all aspects of life from the
health of the individual to international economy (particularly of
third world poverty) to the health of the planet have been elucidated
for decades to no avail. The fishing industry is not immune to
criticism based on the damage mechanized trawlers are doing to fish
stocks around the world. This was the main topic of a recent issue of
the National Geographic magazine. It is astounding to learn of the
amount of 'bycatch' that is discarded in the harvesting of our beloved
prawns.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/feature1/gallery4.html
If you have a high speed connection you MUST watch this compilation on NGS.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/sights_n_sounds/index.html

And on the compassion front, stores like Bass Pro
http://www.basspro.com/ are doing booming business (competing with the
mega churches for disposable incomes ;-) by pandering to our base
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.

Sadly....

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
Post by Arnold Noronha
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
I'm an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You're absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don't think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler's real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it's amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It's
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I'm trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.
Regards
Arnold
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-29 20:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gabe,

I too have heard that story that was started by a polygraphist, Cleve
Backster and has been propagated ever since by a multitude of
hucksters to neurobiologically naive and god-fearing meat-eaters.
http://skepdic.com/plants.html

The prudence of eating sentient vegetables would be the same prudence
you must exert when deciding whether to eat artificially enhanced (by
antibiotics, growth hormones and genetic manipulation) animal muscle.
If there was any kind of centralized neurological system in plants
that made them aware of their surroundings and responsive to them as
an earthworm which squirms helplessly when impaled onto a fishing
hook, we would need to muster our philosophical minds as to what would
be the best source of nutrition for our survival. Yanking tubers and
other root vegetables out of the ground would kill the plant and
thereby cause death of a living individual.

This logic has found favour with a group of vegetarians who will not
eat anything part of a plant or tree on which it depends on for it's
survival. They are known as Fruitarians not only for their philosophy
but also for the source of their sustenance.
http://www.thenewearth.org/fruitext.html

Sincerely,

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.

Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:22:50 +0100
From: "Gabe Menezes" <gabe.menezes at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] The folly of frog filleting

COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Arnold Noronha
2007-05-28 02:26:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
?Hi Arnold,

The crux is not so much the gastronomic delights of the amphibian
appendages as it is the wanton cruelty of the dispatch methods by
starvation due to disambulation (is that a legitimate big enough word
;-?)?.(ellipsis)..


This method of rendering food animals unconscious has now fallen out
of favour due to concerns about BSE but unfortunately still persists
in high school and university biology labs much to the apprehension of
animal rights activists.
http://www.frogsite.org/Anti_Pithing.html

However, they also are of the opinion that ANY vertebrate (and many
invertebrates with two neurons to synapse) have the capacity to
perceive discomfort enough to shy away from it. That, and the
inherent desire to survive, make fishing a despicable sport. (I
wonder what joy sport anglers get out of outwitting a brain many times
smaller than theirs, anyway.) ?



Dear Kevin:
Your learned and profound May 25 comments are appreciated. Yes, I admire
your humane attitude towards creatures other than man. As a biologist/doctor
you have your heart in the right place. The inhumane methods used to kill
animals by those of us who claim to be the image and likeness of God make us
guilty of blasphemy of sorts. Mind-boggling is the dilemma of killing and
maiming animals for food and research as required for Mankind?s survival and
at the same time making sure we don?t subject other species to unnecessary
pain and suffering. Yes, from Humankind?s point of view, all creatures
inhabiting this Planet are part of Creation or Evolution(as you will) and
thus entitled to some consideration unless they?re a direct threat to our
existence.
I?m an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You?re absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don?t think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler?s real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it?s amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It?s
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I?m trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.

Regards
Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-28 23:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arnold,

With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
next week or so. However, I am honoured to be placed in the same
league as the esteemed Dr. Helekar who stands head and shoulders above
me when debating scientific minutia. If Thomas Huxley was known as
Darwin's Bulldog and the current champion of evolutionary thought,
Richard Dawkins is called Darwin's Rottweiler, then I would propose
Santosh be given the title of Darwin's Pitbull (after the legendary
fighting dog which locks onto it's victim) and I will accept being
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )

Having lived most of my life as a meat-eater and belonging to a
profession that has manipulated the physiological processes of
domesticated animals for a living in the interest of providing us with
animal proteins, the almost fanatical compassion towards sentient
beings by the Buddhists and Jains was incomprehensible. But after
converting to vegetarianism about 5 years ago, I began to make the
connection between the meat on my plate and the dominion over the
creatures of the earth that humankind was granted by their
Benevolent(?) Creator. Vegans are considered by many to be unhealthy
tree-huggers with a couple of screws loose for their obsessive
avoidance of all things of animal (and even insect ie. honey) origin.
But some of the most enlightened people of modern times were aware of
the great price animal exploitation and harvesting exacted on the
psyche of the human 'soul'. Several sites maintain lists of prominent
vegetarians eg. http://www.veganwolf.com/famous_vegetarians.htm In
fact, one of my favourite quotes comes from the father of our great
nation, the Mahatma was of the opinion that "The greatness of a nation
and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are
treated". Our tired morality has somehow been preoccupied with
matters sexual.

Those who are interested in this topic should beg, borrow or steal a
copy of Matthew Scully's book "Dominion: The Power of Men, the
Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy'
http://www.matthewscully.com/ The connection between vegetarianism
and religion (NOT just Hinduism) has been well documented.
http://www.ivu.org/religion/ However, it (predominantly the
monotheism of Christianity) has also been used to justify meat
consumption and the factory farming we are now seeing mushrooming out
of control in the west. It's impact on all aspects of life from the
health of the individual to international economy (particularly of
third world poverty) to the health of the planet have been elucidated
for decades to no avail. The fishing industry is not immune to
criticism based on the damage mechanized trawlers are doing to fish
stocks around the world. This was the main topic of a recent issue of
the National Geographic magazine. It is astounding to learn of the
amount of 'bycatch' that is discarded in the harvesting of our beloved
prawns.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/feature1/gallery4.html
If you have a high speed connection you MUST watch this compilation on NGS.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/sights_n_sounds/index.html

And on the compassion front, stores like Bass Pro
http://www.basspro.com/ are doing booming business (competing with the
mega churches for disposable incomes ;-) by pandering to our base
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.

Sadly....

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
Post by Arnold Noronha
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
I'm an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You're absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don't think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler's real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it's amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It's
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I'm trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.
Regards
Arnold
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-29 20:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gabe,

I too have heard that story that was started by a polygraphist, Cleve
Backster and has been propagated ever since by a multitude of
hucksters to neurobiologically naive and god-fearing meat-eaters.
http://skepdic.com/plants.html

The prudence of eating sentient vegetables would be the same prudence
you must exert when deciding whether to eat artificially enhanced (by
antibiotics, growth hormones and genetic manipulation) animal muscle.
If there was any kind of centralized neurological system in plants
that made them aware of their surroundings and responsive to them as
an earthworm which squirms helplessly when impaled onto a fishing
hook, we would need to muster our philosophical minds as to what would
be the best source of nutrition for our survival. Yanking tubers and
other root vegetables out of the ground would kill the plant and
thereby cause death of a living individual.

This logic has found favour with a group of vegetarians who will not
eat anything part of a plant or tree on which it depends on for it's
survival. They are known as Fruitarians not only for their philosophy
but also for the source of their sustenance.
http://www.thenewearth.org/fruitext.html

Sincerely,

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.

Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:22:50 +0100
From: "Gabe Menezes" <gabe.menezes at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] The folly of frog filleting

COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Arnold Noronha
2007-05-28 02:26:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
?Hi Arnold,

The crux is not so much the gastronomic delights of the amphibian
appendages as it is the wanton cruelty of the dispatch methods by
starvation due to disambulation (is that a legitimate big enough word
;-?)?.(ellipsis)..


This method of rendering food animals unconscious has now fallen out
of favour due to concerns about BSE but unfortunately still persists
in high school and university biology labs much to the apprehension of
animal rights activists.
http://www.frogsite.org/Anti_Pithing.html

However, they also are of the opinion that ANY vertebrate (and many
invertebrates with two neurons to synapse) have the capacity to
perceive discomfort enough to shy away from it. That, and the
inherent desire to survive, make fishing a despicable sport. (I
wonder what joy sport anglers get out of outwitting a brain many times
smaller than theirs, anyway.) ?



Dear Kevin:
Your learned and profound May 25 comments are appreciated. Yes, I admire
your humane attitude towards creatures other than man. As a biologist/doctor
you have your heart in the right place. The inhumane methods used to kill
animals by those of us who claim to be the image and likeness of God make us
guilty of blasphemy of sorts. Mind-boggling is the dilemma of killing and
maiming animals for food and research as required for Mankind?s survival and
at the same time making sure we don?t subject other species to unnecessary
pain and suffering. Yes, from Humankind?s point of view, all creatures
inhabiting this Planet are part of Creation or Evolution(as you will) and
thus entitled to some consideration unless they?re a direct threat to our
existence.
I?m an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You?re absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don?t think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler?s real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it?s amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It?s
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I?m trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.

Regards
Arnold

_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best Web mail?award-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-28 23:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Arnold,

With the elections in Goa reaching a fevered pitch, few on this forum
will be interested in our discussion on non-political affairs for the
next week or so. However, I am honoured to be placed in the same
league as the esteemed Dr. Helekar who stands head and shoulders above
me when debating scientific minutia. If Thomas Huxley was known as
Darwin's Bulldog and the current champion of evolutionary thought,
Richard Dawkins is called Darwin's Rottweiler, then I would propose
Santosh be given the title of Darwin's Pitbull (after the legendary
fighting dog which locks onto it's victim) and I will accept being
Darwin's Chihuahua (which is my canine personality after taking the
quiz on Tickle .... http://web.tickle.com/dog/index.jsp )

Having lived most of my life as a meat-eater and belonging to a
profession that has manipulated the physiological processes of
domesticated animals for a living in the interest of providing us with
animal proteins, the almost fanatical compassion towards sentient
beings by the Buddhists and Jains was incomprehensible. But after
converting to vegetarianism about 5 years ago, I began to make the
connection between the meat on my plate and the dominion over the
creatures of the earth that humankind was granted by their
Benevolent(?) Creator. Vegans are considered by many to be unhealthy
tree-huggers with a couple of screws loose for their obsessive
avoidance of all things of animal (and even insect ie. honey) origin.
But some of the most enlightened people of modern times were aware of
the great price animal exploitation and harvesting exacted on the
psyche of the human 'soul'. Several sites maintain lists of prominent
vegetarians eg. http://www.veganwolf.com/famous_vegetarians.htm In
fact, one of my favourite quotes comes from the father of our great
nation, the Mahatma was of the opinion that "The greatness of a nation
and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are
treated". Our tired morality has somehow been preoccupied with
matters sexual.

Those who are interested in this topic should beg, borrow or steal a
copy of Matthew Scully's book "Dominion: The Power of Men, the
Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy'
http://www.matthewscully.com/ The connection between vegetarianism
and religion (NOT just Hinduism) has been well documented.
http://www.ivu.org/religion/ However, it (predominantly the
monotheism of Christianity) has also been used to justify meat
consumption and the factory farming we are now seeing mushrooming out
of control in the west. It's impact on all aspects of life from the
health of the individual to international economy (particularly of
third world poverty) to the health of the planet have been elucidated
for decades to no avail. The fishing industry is not immune to
criticism based on the damage mechanized trawlers are doing to fish
stocks around the world. This was the main topic of a recent issue of
the National Geographic magazine. It is astounding to learn of the
amount of 'bycatch' that is discarded in the harvesting of our beloved
prawns.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/feature1/gallery4.html
If you have a high speed connection you MUST watch this compilation on NGS.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0704/sights_n_sounds/index.html

And on the compassion front, stores like Bass Pro
http://www.basspro.com/ are doing booming business (competing with the
mega churches for disposable incomes ;-) by pandering to our base
desires to show off our ability to outwit, outfox and outsmart lesser
beings with hooks, bait, spreadshot, telescopic rifle sights, hollow
nose bullets, traps and other evil creations.

Sadly....

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.
Post by Arnold Noronha
On Fri, 25 May "Kevin Saldanha" <vegvet at gmail.com>
wrote: Re: [Goanet] Mark Twain's Celebrated Jumping Frog of
Calaveras
I'm an occasional recreational fisherman who is guilty of this cruelty.
You're absolutely right about the sadism inherent in this angling sport.
Unfortunately, we don't think of the ugly aspect of the sport as we go to
challenge the creatures of the waters for an outing and pastime in the bosom
of Nature. The true angler's real objective is catching fresh air and
sunshine with the charm of solitude and maybe some good company of fellow
anglers.
As you have scientifically revealed, it's amazing how many forms of life
come from the same genetic tree. Metaphorically, Man is the 800 lb gorilla
dominating practically all other forms of multi-cellular animals and
vegetation. As you scientists tell us, we are indisputably on top of the
food chain and masters the ecological domain of Nature on this planet. It's
so ironic and poetic justice too that despite all our strength and brains we
live in dread of those ephemeral microscopic organisms such as microbes and
viruses because Nature has given them the power to destroy us so called
Masters of the Planet Earth.
It always fascinating to get erudites like you and Dr Helekar to express
authoritative opinions on matters of heredity and other biological facts.
Pardon me if it appears I'm trying to infringe on your ambit. I have deep
respect for persona of your genre in scientific matters wherein my knowledge
and understanding is very limited.
Regards
Arnold
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
Kevin Saldanha
2007-05-29 20:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gabe,

I too have heard that story that was started by a polygraphist, Cleve
Backster and has been propagated ever since by a multitude of
hucksters to neurobiologically naive and god-fearing meat-eaters.
http://skepdic.com/plants.html

The prudence of eating sentient vegetables would be the same prudence
you must exert when deciding whether to eat artificially enhanced (by
antibiotics, growth hormones and genetic manipulation) animal muscle.
If there was any kind of centralized neurological system in plants
that made them aware of their surroundings and responsive to them as
an earthworm which squirms helplessly when impaled onto a fishing
hook, we would need to muster our philosophical minds as to what would
be the best source of nutrition for our survival. Yanking tubers and
other root vegetables out of the ground would kill the plant and
thereby cause death of a living individual.

This logic has found favour with a group of vegetarians who will not
eat anything part of a plant or tree on which it depends on for it's
survival. They are known as Fruitarians not only for their philosophy
but also for the source of their sustenance.
http://www.thenewearth.org/fruitext.html

Sincerely,

Kevin Saldanha
Mississauga, ON.

Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:22:50 +0100
From: "Gabe Menezes" <gabe.menezes at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Goanet] The folly of frog filleting

COMMENT: Well, I have read that plants too, feel pain and have
emotions. In fact when a person has committed a violent murder in the
presence of plants, the plants remember the person and give off
distressing alarm bells, if the person returns !

So I am not sure whether it is prudent to eat vegetables ?

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
--
Be impeccable with your word - Don Miguel Ruiz
http://www.nderf.org/4AgreementsReview.htm
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