Discussion:
Fourth Estate... and arms of government. WAS: Re: Goanet as learning instrument re Democracies
(too old to reply)
Frederick "FN" Noronha
2006-07-20 06:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept of the three
branches of government [2].

These are not inter-related, though often confused. My worry is that
it happens so often in the Goa assembly (specially with politicians
like Luizinho Faleiro), that our politicos often then justify the
media acting almost as a mouthpiece for government! It shouldn't, and
should be an arm's length from the people who rule us, if not having a
critical and adversorial position.

To quote Wikipedia: "The term Fourth Estate refers to the press, both
in its explicit capacity of advocacy and in its implicit ability to
frame political issues. The term goes back at least to Thomas Carlyle
in the first half of the 19th century.... In this context, the other
three estates are those of the French States-General; the church, the
nobility and the commoners, although in practice the latter were
usually represented by the middle class bourgeoisie."

And again, about "branches of government": "Under modern political
theory, government is understood as having three main powers:
legislative (the power to make laws), executive (the power to
implement laws) and judiciary (the power to judge and apply punishment
when laws are broken)."

These two concepts are not related whatsoever. The confusion maybe
because the idea of "Estates" (church, nobility and commoners as power
lobbies!) is fairly alien to our part of the globe and our day.

Please do not mix up the two concepts, or else it would justify the
political class treating the media as their adjunct. (The famous joke
is about Luizinho Faleiro calling journalists to his cabin, offering
them snacks, and telling them "take down". Journalists sneered about
this being "dictation", even if few, if any, dared challenge the
minister on it. Some did, though.)

FN

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_estate
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government#Branches_of_government
The four estates of democracy maybe the legislative,
judiciary, executive and a free and unfretted press,
but I feel the pillars of democracy are its education
system, an equitable per capita income and to a large
extent an ideology of secularism.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. We
can fight poverty, and illiteracy. It shouldn't exist in the 21st
century. * FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-20 21:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))

Elisabeth
-------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick "FN" Noronha
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up
Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept
of the three
branches of government [2].
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-21 13:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the
fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))
"Frederick \"FN\"<fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing
up Carlyle's conception of the Four Estates [1] with
the concept of the three branches of government [2].

Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-21 19:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic. Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. *
FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-21 19:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic. Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. *
FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-21 19:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic. Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. *
FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-21 19:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic. Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. *
FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-21 19:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic. Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. *
FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-21 19:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic. Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. *
FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-21 19:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic. Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Post by Nasci Caldeira
Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. *
FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-22 13:10:09 UTC
Permalink
dear Fred,

In all of my adult life, I have read and heard of the
Press being referred to as the 'Fourth Estate' in
India, England, USA, now in Australia, and in almost
every democratic country I have travelled to. I have
the same from Newspapers and Magazines, Radio and TV
too.

However, I had no idea as to why the Press was
referred to as such, until you mentioned about the
French Four Estates, on goanet. So goanet is a
'learning instrument' for all of us!

The French connection, that you brought to our notice,
is the relevance to the Press being referred to as
'The Fourth Estate' in the modern democratic system of
governance!

This is the reason I said what I had to say! I have no
references other than what I have learnt this way!
The best way to learn.

With regards,
Nasci
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic.
Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the
Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern
system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-20 06:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept of the three
branches of government [2].

These are not inter-related, though often confused. My worry is that
it happens so often in the Goa assembly (specially with politicians
like Luizinho Faleiro), that our politicos often then justify the
media acting almost as a mouthpiece for government! It shouldn't, and
should be an arm's length from the people who rule us, if not having a
critical and adversorial position.

To quote Wikipedia: "The term Fourth Estate refers to the press, both
in its explicit capacity of advocacy and in its implicit ability to
frame political issues. The term goes back at least to Thomas Carlyle
in the first half of the 19th century.... In this context, the other
three estates are those of the French States-General; the church, the
nobility and the commoners, although in practice the latter were
usually represented by the middle class bourgeoisie."

And again, about "branches of government": "Under modern political
theory, government is understood as having three main powers:
legislative (the power to make laws), executive (the power to
implement laws) and judiciary (the power to judge and apply punishment
when laws are broken)."

These two concepts are not related whatsoever. The confusion maybe
because the idea of "Estates" (church, nobility and commoners as power
lobbies!) is fairly alien to our part of the globe and our day.

Please do not mix up the two concepts, or else it would justify the
political class treating the media as their adjunct. (The famous joke
is about Luizinho Faleiro calling journalists to his cabin, offering
them snacks, and telling them "take down". Journalists sneered about
this being "dictation", even if few, if any, dared challenge the
minister on it. Some did, though.)

FN

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_estate
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government#Branches_of_government
The four estates of democracy maybe the legislative,
judiciary, executive and a free and unfretted press,
but I feel the pillars of democracy are its education
system, an equitable per capita income and to a large
extent an ideology of secularism.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. We
can fight poverty, and illiteracy. It shouldn't exist in the 21st
century. * FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-20 21:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))

Elisabeth
-------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up
Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept
of the three
branches of government [2].
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-21 13:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the
fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))
"Frederick \"FN\"<fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing
up Carlyle's conception of the Four Estates [1] with
the concept of the three branches of government [2].

Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-22 13:10:09 UTC
Permalink
dear Fred,

In all of my adult life, I have read and heard of the
Press being referred to as the 'Fourth Estate' in
India, England, USA, now in Australia, and in almost
every democratic country I have travelled to. I have
the same from Newspapers and Magazines, Radio and TV
too.

However, I had no idea as to why the Press was
referred to as such, until you mentioned about the
French Four Estates, on goanet. So goanet is a
'learning instrument' for all of us!

The French connection, that you brought to our notice,
is the relevance to the Press being referred to as
'The Fourth Estate' in the modern democratic system of
governance!

This is the reason I said what I had to say! I have no
references other than what I have learnt this way!
The best way to learn.

With regards,
Nasci
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic.
Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the
Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern
system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-20 06:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept of the three
branches of government [2].

These are not inter-related, though often confused. My worry is that
it happens so often in the Goa assembly (specially with politicians
like Luizinho Faleiro), that our politicos often then justify the
media acting almost as a mouthpiece for government! It shouldn't, and
should be an arm's length from the people who rule us, if not having a
critical and adversorial position.

To quote Wikipedia: "The term Fourth Estate refers to the press, both
in its explicit capacity of advocacy and in its implicit ability to
frame political issues. The term goes back at least to Thomas Carlyle
in the first half of the 19th century.... In this context, the other
three estates are those of the French States-General; the church, the
nobility and the commoners, although in practice the latter were
usually represented by the middle class bourgeoisie."

And again, about "branches of government": "Under modern political
theory, government is understood as having three main powers:
legislative (the power to make laws), executive (the power to
implement laws) and judiciary (the power to judge and apply punishment
when laws are broken)."

These two concepts are not related whatsoever. The confusion maybe
because the idea of "Estates" (church, nobility and commoners as power
lobbies!) is fairly alien to our part of the globe and our day.

Please do not mix up the two concepts, or else it would justify the
political class treating the media as their adjunct. (The famous joke
is about Luizinho Faleiro calling journalists to his cabin, offering
them snacks, and telling them "take down". Journalists sneered about
this being "dictation", even if few, if any, dared challenge the
minister on it. Some did, though.)

FN

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_estate
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government#Branches_of_government
The four estates of democracy maybe the legislative,
judiciary, executive and a free and unfretted press,
but I feel the pillars of democracy are its education
system, an equitable per capita income and to a large
extent an ideology of secularism.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. We
can fight poverty, and illiteracy. It shouldn't exist in the 21st
century. * FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-20 21:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))

Elisabeth
-------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up
Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept
of the three
branches of government [2].
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-21 13:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the
fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))
"Frederick \"FN\"<fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing
up Carlyle's conception of the Four Estates [1] with
the concept of the three branches of government [2].

Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-22 13:10:09 UTC
Permalink
dear Fred,

In all of my adult life, I have read and heard of the
Press being referred to as the 'Fourth Estate' in
India, England, USA, now in Australia, and in almost
every democratic country I have travelled to. I have
the same from Newspapers and Magazines, Radio and TV
too.

However, I had no idea as to why the Press was
referred to as such, until you mentioned about the
French Four Estates, on goanet. So goanet is a
'learning instrument' for all of us!

The French connection, that you brought to our notice,
is the relevance to the Press being referred to as
'The Fourth Estate' in the modern democratic system of
governance!

This is the reason I said what I had to say! I have no
references other than what I have learnt this way!
The best way to learn.

With regards,
Nasci
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic.
Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the
Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern
system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-20 06:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept of the three
branches of government [2].

These are not inter-related, though often confused. My worry is that
it happens so often in the Goa assembly (specially with politicians
like Luizinho Faleiro), that our politicos often then justify the
media acting almost as a mouthpiece for government! It shouldn't, and
should be an arm's length from the people who rule us, if not having a
critical and adversorial position.

To quote Wikipedia: "The term Fourth Estate refers to the press, both
in its explicit capacity of advocacy and in its implicit ability to
frame political issues. The term goes back at least to Thomas Carlyle
in the first half of the 19th century.... In this context, the other
three estates are those of the French States-General; the church, the
nobility and the commoners, although in practice the latter were
usually represented by the middle class bourgeoisie."

And again, about "branches of government": "Under modern political
theory, government is understood as having three main powers:
legislative (the power to make laws), executive (the power to
implement laws) and judiciary (the power to judge and apply punishment
when laws are broken)."

These two concepts are not related whatsoever. The confusion maybe
because the idea of "Estates" (church, nobility and commoners as power
lobbies!) is fairly alien to our part of the globe and our day.

Please do not mix up the two concepts, or else it would justify the
political class treating the media as their adjunct. (The famous joke
is about Luizinho Faleiro calling journalists to his cabin, offering
them snacks, and telling them "take down". Journalists sneered about
this being "dictation", even if few, if any, dared challenge the
minister on it. Some did, though.)

FN

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_estate
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government#Branches_of_government
The four estates of democracy maybe the legislative,
judiciary, executive and a free and unfretted press,
but I feel the pillars of democracy are its education
system, an equitable per capita income and to a large
extent an ideology of secularism.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. We
can fight poverty, and illiteracy. It shouldn't exist in the 21st
century. * FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-20 21:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))

Elisabeth
-------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up
Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept
of the three
branches of government [2].
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-21 13:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the
fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))
"Frederick \"FN\"<fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing
up Carlyle's conception of the Four Estates [1] with
the concept of the three branches of government [2].

Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-22 13:10:09 UTC
Permalink
dear Fred,

In all of my adult life, I have read and heard of the
Press being referred to as the 'Fourth Estate' in
India, England, USA, now in Australia, and in almost
every democratic country I have travelled to. I have
the same from Newspapers and Magazines, Radio and TV
too.

However, I had no idea as to why the Press was
referred to as such, until you mentioned about the
French Four Estates, on goanet. So goanet is a
'learning instrument' for all of us!

The French connection, that you brought to our notice,
is the relevance to the Press being referred to as
'The Fourth Estate' in the modern democratic system of
governance!

This is the reason I said what I had to say! I have no
references other than what I have learnt this way!
The best way to learn.

With regards,
Nasci
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic.
Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the
Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern
system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-20 06:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept of the three
branches of government [2].

These are not inter-related, though often confused. My worry is that
it happens so often in the Goa assembly (specially with politicians
like Luizinho Faleiro), that our politicos often then justify the
media acting almost as a mouthpiece for government! It shouldn't, and
should be an arm's length from the people who rule us, if not having a
critical and adversorial position.

To quote Wikipedia: "The term Fourth Estate refers to the press, both
in its explicit capacity of advocacy and in its implicit ability to
frame political issues. The term goes back at least to Thomas Carlyle
in the first half of the 19th century.... In this context, the other
three estates are those of the French States-General; the church, the
nobility and the commoners, although in practice the latter were
usually represented by the middle class bourgeoisie."

And again, about "branches of government": "Under modern political
theory, government is understood as having three main powers:
legislative (the power to make laws), executive (the power to
implement laws) and judiciary (the power to judge and apply punishment
when laws are broken)."

These two concepts are not related whatsoever. The confusion maybe
because the idea of "Estates" (church, nobility and commoners as power
lobbies!) is fairly alien to our part of the globe and our day.

Please do not mix up the two concepts, or else it would justify the
political class treating the media as their adjunct. (The famous joke
is about Luizinho Faleiro calling journalists to his cabin, offering
them snacks, and telling them "take down". Journalists sneered about
this being "dictation", even if few, if any, dared challenge the
minister on it. Some did, though.)

FN

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_estate
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government#Branches_of_government
The four estates of democracy maybe the legislative,
judiciary, executive and a free and unfretted press,
but I feel the pillars of democracy are its education
system, an equitable per capita income and to a large
extent an ideology of secularism.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. We
can fight poverty, and illiteracy. It shouldn't exist in the 21st
century. * FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-20 21:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))

Elisabeth
-------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up
Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept
of the three
branches of government [2].
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-21 13:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the
fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))
"Frederick \"FN\"<fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing
up Carlyle's conception of the Four Estates [1] with
the concept of the three branches of government [2].

Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-22 13:10:09 UTC
Permalink
dear Fred,

In all of my adult life, I have read and heard of the
Press being referred to as the 'Fourth Estate' in
India, England, USA, now in Australia, and in almost
every democratic country I have travelled to. I have
the same from Newspapers and Magazines, Radio and TV
too.

However, I had no idea as to why the Press was
referred to as such, until you mentioned about the
French Four Estates, on goanet. So goanet is a
'learning instrument' for all of us!

The French connection, that you brought to our notice,
is the relevance to the Press being referred to as
'The Fourth Estate' in the modern democratic system of
governance!

This is the reason I said what I had to say! I have no
references other than what I have learnt this way!
The best way to learn.

With regards,
Nasci
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic.
Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the
Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern
system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-20 06:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept of the three
branches of government [2].

These are not inter-related, though often confused. My worry is that
it happens so often in the Goa assembly (specially with politicians
like Luizinho Faleiro), that our politicos often then justify the
media acting almost as a mouthpiece for government! It shouldn't, and
should be an arm's length from the people who rule us, if not having a
critical and adversorial position.

To quote Wikipedia: "The term Fourth Estate refers to the press, both
in its explicit capacity of advocacy and in its implicit ability to
frame political issues. The term goes back at least to Thomas Carlyle
in the first half of the 19th century.... In this context, the other
three estates are those of the French States-General; the church, the
nobility and the commoners, although in practice the latter were
usually represented by the middle class bourgeoisie."

And again, about "branches of government": "Under modern political
theory, government is understood as having three main powers:
legislative (the power to make laws), executive (the power to
implement laws) and judiciary (the power to judge and apply punishment
when laws are broken)."

These two concepts are not related whatsoever. The confusion maybe
because the idea of "Estates" (church, nobility and commoners as power
lobbies!) is fairly alien to our part of the globe and our day.

Please do not mix up the two concepts, or else it would justify the
political class treating the media as their adjunct. (The famous joke
is about Luizinho Faleiro calling journalists to his cabin, offering
them snacks, and telling them "take down". Journalists sneered about
this being "dictation", even if few, if any, dared challenge the
minister on it. Some did, though.)

FN

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_estate
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government#Branches_of_government
The four estates of democracy maybe the legislative,
judiciary, executive and a free and unfretted press,
but I feel the pillars of democracy are its education
system, an equitable per capita income and to a large
extent an ideology of secularism.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. We
can fight poverty, and illiteracy. It shouldn't exist in the 21st
century. * FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-20 21:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))

Elisabeth
-------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up
Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept
of the three
branches of government [2].
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-21 13:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the
fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))
"Frederick \"FN\"<fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing
up Carlyle's conception of the Four Estates [1] with
the concept of the three branches of government [2].

Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-22 13:10:09 UTC
Permalink
dear Fred,

In all of my adult life, I have read and heard of the
Press being referred to as the 'Fourth Estate' in
India, England, USA, now in Australia, and in almost
every democratic country I have travelled to. I have
the same from Newspapers and Magazines, Radio and TV
too.

However, I had no idea as to why the Press was
referred to as such, until you mentioned about the
French Four Estates, on goanet. So goanet is a
'learning instrument' for all of us!

The French connection, that you brought to our notice,
is the relevance to the Press being referred to as
'The Fourth Estate' in the modern democratic system of
governance!

This is the reason I said what I had to say! I have no
references other than what I have learnt this way!
The best way to learn.

With regards,
Nasci
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic.
Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the
Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern
system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
2006-07-20 06:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept of the three
branches of government [2].

These are not inter-related, though often confused. My worry is that
it happens so often in the Goa assembly (specially with politicians
like Luizinho Faleiro), that our politicos often then justify the
media acting almost as a mouthpiece for government! It shouldn't, and
should be an arm's length from the people who rule us, if not having a
critical and adversorial position.

To quote Wikipedia: "The term Fourth Estate refers to the press, both
in its explicit capacity of advocacy and in its implicit ability to
frame political issues. The term goes back at least to Thomas Carlyle
in the first half of the 19th century.... In this context, the other
three estates are those of the French States-General; the church, the
nobility and the commoners, although in practice the latter were
usually represented by the middle class bourgeoisie."

And again, about "branches of government": "Under modern political
theory, government is understood as having three main powers:
legislative (the power to make laws), executive (the power to
implement laws) and judiciary (the power to judge and apply punishment
when laws are broken)."

These two concepts are not related whatsoever. The confusion maybe
because the idea of "Estates" (church, nobility and commoners as power
lobbies!) is fairly alien to our part of the globe and our day.

Please do not mix up the two concepts, or else it would justify the
political class treating the media as their adjunct. (The famous joke
is about Luizinho Faleiro calling journalists to his cabin, offering
them snacks, and telling them "take down". Journalists sneered about
this being "dictation", even if few, if any, dared challenge the
minister on it. Some did, though.)

FN

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_estate
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government#Branches_of_government
The four estates of democracy maybe the legislative,
judiciary, executive and a free and unfretted press,
but I feel the pillars of democracy are its education
system, an equitable per capita income and to a large
extent an ideology of secularism.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
PHOTOSFORALL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/pfdindia/
Inviting anyone with a camera to share photos focussing on
development issues and images.... and those otherwise excluded. We
can fight poverty, and illiteracy. It shouldn't exist in the 21st
century. * FN * http://fn.goa-india.org
----------------------------------------------------------
Elisabeth Carvalho
2006-07-20 21:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Dear Fred,
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))

Elisabeth
-------------------------------

--- "Frederick \"FN\" Noronha"
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up
Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept
of the three
branches of government [2].
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-21 13:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabeth Carvalho
I stand corrected. I've made precisely that mistake;
in assuming the other three are also referred to as
estates since the Press is referred to as the
fourth.
Thanks for pointing it out. Imagine if I'd said that
at a cocktail party, amidst the French. Even with a
swanky Salwaar Kameez, I couldn't have gotten away
with my faux pas or as an old boss of mine would
pronouce it, "fox paws". :))
"Frederick \"FN\"<fredericknoronha at gmail.com> wrote:
Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing
up Carlyle's conception of the Four Estates [1] with
the concept of the three branches of government [2].

Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
the old French and the modern system of Democratic
Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
a very important and necessary component as reflecting
the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
completely unfettered!
Just my two Paise worth!
regards,
Nasci Caldeira.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Nasci Caldeira
2006-07-22 13:10:09 UTC
Permalink
dear Fred,

In all of my adult life, I have read and heard of the
Press being referred to as the 'Fourth Estate' in
India, England, USA, now in Australia, and in almost
every democratic country I have travelled to. I have
the same from Newspapers and Magazines, Radio and TV
too.

However, I had no idea as to why the Press was
referred to as such, until you mentioned about the
French Four Estates, on goanet. So goanet is a
'learning instrument' for all of us!

The French connection, that you brought to our notice,
is the relevance to the Press being referred to as
'The Fourth Estate' in the modern democratic system of
governance!

This is the reason I said what I had to say! I have no
references other than what I have learnt this way!
The best way to learn.

With regards,
Nasci
Post by Frederick &quot;FN&quot; Noronha
Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic.
Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the
Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern
system of Democratic
Governance". FN
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
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