Discussion:
Lies about WMDs and warheads
(too old to reply)
Chimbelcho
2003-04-20 15:01:07 UTC
Permalink
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least until they come up with a some kind of evidence.

Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.

Cheers,

Santosh
**********************************************************************************

SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction in more than a month of war and occupation

20 April 2003


So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.

But, Mr Blair, where are they? A month has passed since American and British troops entered Iraq, more than a week since the fall of Baghdad. But thus far not even a sniff. Not a drum of VX or mustard gas, not a phial of botulin or anthrax, not a shred of evidence that Iraq was assembling a nuclear weapons programme.

But that wasn't what they told us. Remember Colin Powell at the Security Council two months ago (though today it seems another age on another planet): the charts, the grainy intelligence satellite pictures, the crackly tapes of the intercepted phone conversations among Iraqi officials? How plausible it all sounded, especially when propounded by the most plausible figure in the Bush ad- ministration.

And what about those other claims, wheeled out on various occasions by Messrs Bush, Blair, Cheney and Rumsfeld? The Iraqi drones that were supposed to be able to attack the US east coast, the imports of aluminium tubes allegedly intended for centrifuges to enrich uranium, the unaccounted-for lethal nerve and germ agents, in quantities specified down to the last gallon or pound, as if exact numbers alone constituted proof. All, it seems, egregious products of the imagination of the intelligence services ? one commodity whose existence need never be doubted.

Maybe the Saddam regime was diabolically cunning in the concealment of these weap-ons, but the shambolic manner of its passing suggests otherwise. Maybe, as those "US officials" continue to suggest from behind their comfortable screen of anonymity, the weapons have been shipped to Syria for "safekeeping". But that theory too is dismissed by independent experts.

Indeed, it collapses at the first serious examination. Why should Saddam part with his most effective means of defence, when the survival of his regime and himself was on the line? Nor will that hoary and disingenuous line advanced by our political masters wash any longer ? oh yes, we know a lot more, but if we told you, we would be showing our hand to Saddam and endangering precious intelligence sources.

Just believe us, old boy, the Government told us, and you'll see we were right all along. And the British, being on the whole a reasonable and trusting people, mostly accepted the word of their rulers.

Well, Saddam is now gone. And with him has disappeared any conceivable risk to those intelligence sources (assuming they ever existed). So just what was this information on the basis of which Washington and its faithful ally launched an unprovoked invasion of a ramshackle third world country? A country with a very nasty regime to be sure, but not a great deal nastier than some other potential candidates for "liberation" in the Middle East and elsewhere.

If only for the credibility and reputation of our country, this newspaper hopes that enough weapons of mass destruction will be discovered to justify a war that has grievously weakened the UN, strained the Atlantic alliance and split the European Union.

But they'd better be found pretty soon. Having rushed into war to suit its own military and domestic electoral timetable, the Bush administration now has the nerve to claim that a year may be required to establish the whereabouts of the WMD ? and that it may never do so unless led to them by co-operative Iraqis. But no longer can London and Washington rely simply on the impossibility for the former Iraqi regime to prove a negative, that the weapons do not exist. It is up to the "coalition" of two to provide proof positive that they do.

This pointless war cannot be un-made. But we urgently need to know that the invasion was not illegal as well. With Britain and the US in full control of Iraq, a month should suffice. If no "smoking gun" has turned up by then, a full parliamentary inquiry is essential ? into the competence and accountability of the intelligence services, and into how our Government used them to sell a mistaken and reckless policy.
Lily & Gabe Menezes
2003-04-20 19:39:13 UTC
Permalink
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!

Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
noel
2003-04-21 06:06:09 UTC
Permalink
It's an acknowledgement that the US/UK/Australian forces went in without
proof.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 5:39 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Lies about WMDs and warheads
Post by Chimbelcho
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
Post by Chimbelcho
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one
incriminating
Post by Chimbelcho
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
noel
2003-04-21 06:06:09 UTC
Permalink
It's an acknowledgement that the US/UK/Australian forces went in without
proof.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 5:39 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Lies about WMDs and warheads
Post by Chimbelcho
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
Post by Chimbelcho
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one
incriminating
Post by Chimbelcho
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
noel
2003-04-21 06:06:09 UTC
Permalink
It's an acknowledgement that the US/UK/Australian forces went in without
proof.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 5:39 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Lies about WMDs and warheads
Post by Chimbelcho
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
Post by Chimbelcho
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one
incriminating
Post by Chimbelcho
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
noel
2003-04-21 06:06:09 UTC
Permalink
It's an acknowledgement that the US/UK/Australian forces went in without
proof.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 5:39 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Lies about WMDs and warheads
Post by Chimbelcho
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
Post by Chimbelcho
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one
incriminating
Post by Chimbelcho
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
noel
2003-04-21 06:06:09 UTC
Permalink
It's an acknowledgement that the US/UK/Australian forces went in without
proof.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 5:39 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Lies about WMDs and warheads
Post by Chimbelcho
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
Post by Chimbelcho
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one
incriminating
Post by Chimbelcho
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
noel
2003-04-21 06:06:09 UTC
Permalink
It's an acknowledgement that the US/UK/Australian forces went in without
proof.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 5:39 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Lies about WMDs and warheads
Post by Chimbelcho
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
Post by Chimbelcho
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one
incriminating
Post by Chimbelcho
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
noel
2003-04-21 06:06:09 UTC
Permalink
It's an acknowledgement that the US/UK/Australian forces went in without
proof.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 5:39 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Lies about WMDs and warheads
Post by Chimbelcho
****************************************
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com
****************************************
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
Post by Chimbelcho
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one
incriminating
Post by Chimbelcho
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
_______________________________________________
Goanet mailing list
Goanet at goanet.org
http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
Chimbelcho
2003-04-21 06:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So
until then it would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and then there would be no reason to go to war.

Cheers,

Santosh
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-21 15:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chimbelcho
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just
needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be
prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and
then there would be no reason to go to war.
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip through any of the US
cable networks, the WMD issue is being downplayed. This seems to bother us
and the rest of the world more, than the average American.

Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset here, than the means
of such a victory.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-21 15:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chimbelcho
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just
needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be
prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and
then there would be no reason to go to war.
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip through any of the US
cable networks, the WMD issue is being downplayed. This seems to bother us
and the rest of the world more, than the average American.

Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset here, than the means
of such a victory.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-21 15:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chimbelcho
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just
needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be
prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and
then there would be no reason to go to war.
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip through any of the US
cable networks, the WMD issue is being downplayed. This seems to bother us
and the rest of the world more, than the average American.

Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset here, than the means
of such a victory.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-21 15:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chimbelcho
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just
needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be
prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and
then there would be no reason to go to war.
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip through any of the US
cable networks, the WMD issue is being downplayed. This seems to bother us
and the rest of the world more, than the average American.

Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset here, than the means
of such a victory.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-21 15:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chimbelcho
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just
needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be
prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and
then there would be no reason to go to war.
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip through any of the US
cable networks, the WMD issue is being downplayed. This seems to bother us
and the rest of the world more, than the average American.

Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset here, than the means
of such a victory.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-21 15:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chimbelcho
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just
needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be
prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and
then there would be no reason to go to war.
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip through any of the US
cable networks, the WMD issue is being downplayed. This seems to bother us
and the rest of the world more, than the average American.

Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset here, than the means
of such a victory.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-21 15:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chimbelcho
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just
needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be
prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and
then there would be no reason to go to war.
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip through any of the US
cable networks, the WMD issue is being downplayed. This seems to bother us
and the rest of the world more, than the average American.

Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset here, than the means
of such a victory.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tim de Mello
2003-04-21 13:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by noel
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
Let us have patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, >big
country and it is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then >it
would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
======

Isn't this exactly what the world was telling the US administration before
they invaded Iraq?


Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA






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Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-22 14:36:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:01:07 -0400, Santosh
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and
means of delivery have been found, and there really
was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I
wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at
least now or at least until they come up with a
some kind of evidence.
+++ To address the second part of the above para
first......All along I thought we were debating the
issue about the Iraq War. Santosh, it appears, thought
it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack
thereof. I have consistently presented facts. No
fiction !! And so have many others. If you are
interested in debating the facts - lets continue the
debate instead of making eloquent, elitist,
intellectual statements that purport to make the rest
of us think that what you are say is necessarily *the*
truth to every discussion on this forum.

Another of your recent comments......

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 18:24:17 -0400, Santosh
If you are interested in historical arguments, I
suggest you read what real historians and political
scientists have written.
+++ What do you mean by "real historians". Are you
implying that you read "real historians" and the rest
of us have educated ourselves with unreal history ?

Why is there a perception that every fact presented by
anybody else is unreal ??

Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
- Either you are putting my sentences out of context
with the rest of the paragraph or you are obviously
unaware that UN inspectors have discovered and
destroyed WMDs of every kind and the means to deliver
them in the 12 years of the inspection regime from
UNSCOM to UNMOVIC ?? Is it not Hans Blix as recently as
a few weeks before the war and on more than one
occassion, who stated, that the Government of Iraq has
still to account for several thousand tonnes of WMDS ??
Haven't there been scientists who previously worked for
the ex-regime and subsequently defected, declare that
the regime maintained a constant pursuit of WMDs ??

Yes, the US has not found any WMDs to date and even if
they have found them, they haven't disclosed them yet.
Saddam Hussein didn't exactly stock the WMDs at a
neihbourhood 7-11 store !! Why are we in a hurry to
know every element of the search for WMDs right away ?
The previous regime spent over 2 decades creating the
program. They have been experts at deceit. More than 12
years of UN inspections could not account for
everything. And here we are jumping up-and-down about
"Lies about WMDs". Hopefully the US is rounding-up the
many scientists involved in the various programs and
questioning them and hopefully alot of the evidence has
not been lost by the recent looting.

Even after being told to provide the UN with a complete
report of all WMD programs as per resolution 1441 in
late-2002, the ex-regime continued to mislead the UN.
They kept finding documents right until the last week
before the war. They never came clean in over 12 years
of inspections - it's foolhardy and naive, at best, to
expect they ever would !!


On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:15:22 -0400, Santosh
Now, at the risk of someone asking me if I were a
mortician, I would like to ask the partisan how many
deaths justify the expression of relief from his/her
point of view?
+++ In a similar vein, what would you constitute the
existence of a program(s) of WMDs in Iraq - 1 VX tipped
missile ? 10 labs ? 20 vials of bio-agents ? 30
petri-dishes ? 50 scientists ? 100 front companies
doing the procurement.....What ?? What is it that would
satisfy you ?? Would you have preferred for these
weapons to have been used in the recent war, just so
that you could have your proof ??

To expect a man responsible for over a million deaths
to be sincere is definitely imprudent !!


On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:18:08 -0500, Tariq Siddiqui
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip
through any of the US cable networks, the WMD issue
is being downplayed. This seems to bother us and the
rest of the world more, than the average American.
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset
here, than the means of such a victory.
+++ There is no victory until we know the fate of the
Ace-of-Spades !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-23 16:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Easy! We do a before and after analysis. Before the war all the talk was
about WMDs and Al-Qaeda and how Saddam was about to give them to Al-Qaeda.
After the war the only talk we get is about how brutal Saddam Hussein was
and how "liberated" the people of Iraq are.

That my dear friend, is called "downplaying".

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-23 16:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Easy! We do a before and after analysis. Before the war all the talk was
about WMDs and Al-Qaeda and how Saddam was about to give them to Al-Qaeda.
After the war the only talk we get is about how brutal Saddam Hussein was
and how "liberated" the people of Iraq are.

That my dear friend, is called "downplaying".

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-23 16:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Easy! We do a before and after analysis. Before the war all the talk was
about WMDs and Al-Qaeda and how Saddam was about to give them to Al-Qaeda.
After the war the only talk we get is about how brutal Saddam Hussein was
and how "liberated" the people of Iraq are.

That my dear friend, is called "downplaying".

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-23 16:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Easy! We do a before and after analysis. Before the war all the talk was
about WMDs and Al-Qaeda and how Saddam was about to give them to Al-Qaeda.
After the war the only talk we get is about how brutal Saddam Hussein was
and how "liberated" the people of Iraq are.

That my dear friend, is called "downplaying".

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-23 16:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Easy! We do a before and after analysis. Before the war all the talk was
about WMDs and Al-Qaeda and how Saddam was about to give them to Al-Qaeda.
After the war the only talk we get is about how brutal Saddam Hussein was
and how "liberated" the people of Iraq are.

That my dear friend, is called "downplaying".

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-23 16:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Easy! We do a before and after analysis. Before the war all the talk was
about WMDs and Al-Qaeda and how Saddam was about to give them to Al-Qaeda.
After the war the only talk we get is about how brutal Saddam Hussein was
and how "liberated" the people of Iraq are.

That my dear friend, is called "downplaying".

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-23 16:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Easy! We do a before and after analysis. Before the war all the talk was
about WMDs and Al-Qaeda and how Saddam was about to give them to Al-Qaeda.
After the war the only talk we get is about how brutal Saddam Hussein was
and how "liberated" the people of Iraq are.

That my dear friend, is called "downplaying".

--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Mervyn Lobo
2003-04-23 02:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote: >
Post by Bosco D'Mello
There is no victory until we know the fate of
the Ace-of-Spades !!
Bosco,
The Americans line is that they do not know what
happened to Saddam (thats why they stopped bombing.)

Now if they succeed in installing the'American way of
life' in Iraq, Saddam sightings are going to become
more popular than Elvis sightings :-)

Mervyn


______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Chimbelcho
2003-04-23 04:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Santosh, it appears, thought it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack thereof. I have consistently >presented facts.
Hi Bosco:

Sorry to upset you. That was not my intention.

Repeating the canard that the Iraq war was necessitated by WMDs, absent any real evidence for them in Iraq, is indeed insulting to my limited intelligence. You have to know how low my intelligence is to realize that it doesn't take much to insult it.
No fiction!! And so have many others. If you are interested in debating the facts - >lets continue the debate.
Right now, WMDs appear to be pure fiction. Come back after you have some facts on them.
If you are interested in debating the facts - lets continue the debate instead of >making eloquent, elitist, intellectual statements that purport to make the rest of us >think that what you are say is necessarily *the* truth to every discussion on this >forum.
You give me more credit than I deserve. I am just an ordinary guy trying to chip in his two cents. You don't have to feel intimidated by me. But thanks for the compliment. Nobody has called my statements eloquent, elitist and intellectual before. Usually, it is just the opposite.
What do you mean by "real historians". Are you implying that you read "real >historians" and the rest of us have educated ourselves with unreal history?
Real historians are people who have acquired specific in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you should not learn history from politicians like George Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts. I don't know from where you have acquired your knowledge of history. But I always keep an open mind about people. And I think there are many among us who have learned their history from the right sources. My knowledge of history is poor. But what little I know I have not learned from Rush Limbaugh.
Why is there a perception that every fact presented by anybody else is unreal??
I don't know what you mean by that. However, if you are referring to my earlier comments, I ask you again not to feel compelled to believe what I say. You are free to believe your own facts more than mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction more than my facts.
Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless they are proven to be anything other than fiction. Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

Cheers,

Santosh
Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-23 16:29:43 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:26:32 -0400, Santosh
<Chimbelcho at aol.com> wrote:

Santosh:

No, my fellow-Goenkar, you did not upset me ! And being
the affable President of Chimbel - No, you are not the
least intimidating but you are misinformed of the facts
and in denial of reality and in doing so are attempting
to influence everybody else's opinion on this
forum.......getting back to the subject......

Since you have an affinity to educate yourself and us
too (thank you) from various websites. Here below find
a few to digest - these are FACTS not speculation by
experts !

The UN has been trying to get to the bottom of Iraq's
WMD-programs since Feb 1991. They have had a lot of
success !! The Iraqis have resorted to a lot of
non-cooperation and deceit instead of coming clean as
per UN resolutions. Before Hans Blix there was Rold
Ekeus and Richard Butler who have been on the trail of
what you refer as "FICTION". The Iraqis have a lot to
account for as far as WMDs are concerned. If you have
the time, please catch-up with the FACTS ! These are
mostly United Nations weblinks so don't dismiss them as
an extension of the current US administration or
neo-conservative philosophy. Starting with UN
resolution 660 in August 1990 there have been over a
dozen UN resolutions that have addressed Iraq. Even
after sanctions were in place in 1990, the ex-regime
maintained and furthered their WMD programs under the
cover of permitted dual-use activities.

Achievements of UNSCOM
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/Achievements/achievements.html
www.un.org/Depts/unscom

Iraqi attempts at not complying with UN resolutions
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/unscmdoc.htm

Last UNMOVIC report (but do run thru the others too)
www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/documents/2003-232.pdf

More UN documents under the Document section @
www.unmovic.org

Since you like reading experts and thinking heads:
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/pdf/Iraq/factsheet/Iraq-ChemBioFactSheet.pdf

www.ceip.org/files/publications/iraq/black.htm

The UN interview with Saddam Hussein's son-in-law !!

www.fair.org/press-releases/kamel.pdf

This (I think) is a news site:
www.megastories.com/iraq/inspect/unscom.htm

But then again there is perception that .com sites
could be mere propaganda.......so no more of those !

The US may not find any WMDs and people like you will
be quick to jump to that and say there was no need to
go to war. There is another perception - because there
was a war, SH's constant pursuit of WMDs have ended. He
will no longer threaten his people or the neighbourhood
or in a greater context use the weapons to terrorize
the world to pay unreasonable sums of money for oil -
which was one of his initial goals !! It's the current
skeptic-thinking that the Iraqis adeptly played to, to
try and fool not just the UN. If the Iraqis did destroy
evidence before the war and there are no WMDs to be
found it does not end the WMD story - there is still
accountability to be addressed as to where the toxins
eventually ended.

I also subscribe to the oil-theory !! US interests are
paramount !! A 1-dollar discount for every barrel of
oil bought from Saudi Arabia for over 20 years (thanks
to Ronald Reagan) has reportedly saved the US billions
of dollars. And who knows what else.

And if you think the French, Russians and Germans
(among others) were anti-war because they wanted to
save the world from another war - Wake up !! Just like
you claim the US administration "brain-washed"
Americans to support the war, the same can be said for
those governments who have only tried to protect their
interests but don't have the gall to stand-up to the
US. The ex-regime in Iraq successful exploited this
division for many years to extend it's survival.
Post by Chimbelcho
Real historians are people who have acquired specific
in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you
should not learn history from politicians like George
Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts.
+++ You are too quick to draw conclusions about others
!! But you're right Rush Limbaugh does not teach
history !! I'm sure most people here never tune(d) into
him. I'll agree with your perception that some in
Washington have an agenda. That is no secret !!
Post by Chimbelcho
You are free to believe your own facts more than
mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction
more than my facts.

+++ Hopefully you will stop being in denial about what
you state to be FICTION is indeed FACTS as far as WMDs
are concerned.
Post by Chimbelcho
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless
they are proven to be anything other than fiction.
Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

+++ There is no need to play the underdog !! We're all
debating this on equal terms !! If you prefer to ignore
the FACT that the ex-regime pursued a WMD-program and
had no credibility in the eyes of many people around
the world, so be it !!

Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-24 17:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!
Development of Nuclear weapons is not prohibited by the NPT. The treaty
just says that you have to do it yourself, without any help.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-24 17:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!
Development of Nuclear weapons is not prohibited by the NPT. The treaty
just says that you have to do it yourself, without any help.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-24 17:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!
Development of Nuclear weapons is not prohibited by the NPT. The treaty
just says that you have to do it yourself, without any help.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-24 17:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!
Development of Nuclear weapons is not prohibited by the NPT. The treaty
just says that you have to do it yourself, without any help.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-24 17:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!
Development of Nuclear weapons is not prohibited by the NPT. The treaty
just says that you have to do it yourself, without any help.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-24 17:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!
Development of Nuclear weapons is not prohibited by the NPT. The treaty
just says that you have to do it yourself, without any help.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Tariq Siddiqui
2003-04-24 17:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bosco D'Mello
Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!
Development of Nuclear weapons is not prohibited by the NPT. The treaty
just says that you have to do it yourself, without any help.


--
Tariq Siddiqui
tariq at bayou.uh.edu
*******************************************************************************
Rockets Lover!
Laker Hater !!!
*******************************************************************************
Chimbelcho
2003-04-20 15:01:07 UTC
Permalink
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least until they come up with a some kind of evidence.

Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.

Cheers,

Santosh
**********************************************************************************

SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction in more than a month of war and occupation

20 April 2003


So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.

But, Mr Blair, where are they? A month has passed since American and British troops entered Iraq, more than a week since the fall of Baghdad. But thus far not even a sniff. Not a drum of VX or mustard gas, not a phial of botulin or anthrax, not a shred of evidence that Iraq was assembling a nuclear weapons programme.

But that wasn't what they told us. Remember Colin Powell at the Security Council two months ago (though today it seems another age on another planet): the charts, the grainy intelligence satellite pictures, the crackly tapes of the intercepted phone conversations among Iraqi officials? How plausible it all sounded, especially when propounded by the most plausible figure in the Bush ad- ministration.

And what about those other claims, wheeled out on various occasions by Messrs Bush, Blair, Cheney and Rumsfeld? The Iraqi drones that were supposed to be able to attack the US east coast, the imports of aluminium tubes allegedly intended for centrifuges to enrich uranium, the unaccounted-for lethal nerve and germ agents, in quantities specified down to the last gallon or pound, as if exact numbers alone constituted proof. All, it seems, egregious products of the imagination of the intelligence services ? one commodity whose existence need never be doubted.

Maybe the Saddam regime was diabolically cunning in the concealment of these weap-ons, but the shambolic manner of its passing suggests otherwise. Maybe, as those "US officials" continue to suggest from behind their comfortable screen of anonymity, the weapons have been shipped to Syria for "safekeeping". But that theory too is dismissed by independent experts.

Indeed, it collapses at the first serious examination. Why should Saddam part with his most effective means of defence, when the survival of his regime and himself was on the line? Nor will that hoary and disingenuous line advanced by our political masters wash any longer ? oh yes, we know a lot more, but if we told you, we would be showing our hand to Saddam and endangering precious intelligence sources.

Just believe us, old boy, the Government told us, and you'll see we were right all along. And the British, being on the whole a reasonable and trusting people, mostly accepted the word of their rulers.

Well, Saddam is now gone. And with him has disappeared any conceivable risk to those intelligence sources (assuming they ever existed). So just what was this information on the basis of which Washington and its faithful ally launched an unprovoked invasion of a ramshackle third world country? A country with a very nasty regime to be sure, but not a great deal nastier than some other potential candidates for "liberation" in the Middle East and elsewhere.

If only for the credibility and reputation of our country, this newspaper hopes that enough weapons of mass destruction will be discovered to justify a war that has grievously weakened the UN, strained the Atlantic alliance and split the European Union.

But they'd better be found pretty soon. Having rushed into war to suit its own military and domestic electoral timetable, the Bush administration now has the nerve to claim that a year may be required to establish the whereabouts of the WMD ? and that it may never do so unless led to them by co-operative Iraqis. But no longer can London and Washington rely simply on the impossibility for the former Iraqi regime to prove a negative, that the weapons do not exist. It is up to the "coalition" of two to provide proof positive that they do.

This pointless war cannot be un-made. But we urgently need to know that the invasion was not illegal as well. With Britain and the US in full control of Iraq, a month should suffice. If no "smoking gun" has turned up by then, a full parliamentary inquiry is essential ? into the competence and accountability of the intelligence services, and into how our Government used them to sell a mistaken and reckless policy.
Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
2003-04-20 19:39:13 UTC
Permalink
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!

Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
Chimbelcho
2003-04-21 06:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So
until then it would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and then there would be no reason to go to war.

Cheers,

Santosh
Tim de Mello
2003-04-21 13:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by noel
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
Let us have patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, >big
country and it is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then >it
would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
======

Isn't this exactly what the world was telling the US administration before
they invaded Iraq?


Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA






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Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-22 14:36:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:01:07 -0400, Santosh
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and
means of delivery have been found, and there really
was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I
wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at
least now or at least until they come up with a
some kind of evidence.
+++ To address the second part of the above para
first......All along I thought we were debating the
issue about the Iraq War. Santosh, it appears, thought
it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack
thereof. I have consistently presented facts. No
fiction !! And so have many others. If you are
interested in debating the facts - lets continue the
debate instead of making eloquent, elitist,
intellectual statements that purport to make the rest
of us think that what you are say is necessarily *the*
truth to every discussion on this forum.

Another of your recent comments......

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 18:24:17 -0400, Santosh
If you are interested in historical arguments, I
suggest you read what real historians and political
scientists have written.
+++ What do you mean by "real historians". Are you
implying that you read "real historians" and the rest
of us have educated ourselves with unreal history ?

Why is there a perception that every fact presented by
anybody else is unreal ??

Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
- Either you are putting my sentences out of context
with the rest of the paragraph or you are obviously
unaware that UN inspectors have discovered and
destroyed WMDs of every kind and the means to deliver
them in the 12 years of the inspection regime from
UNSCOM to UNMOVIC ?? Is it not Hans Blix as recently as
a few weeks before the war and on more than one
occassion, who stated, that the Government of Iraq has
still to account for several thousand tonnes of WMDS ??
Haven't there been scientists who previously worked for
the ex-regime and subsequently defected, declare that
the regime maintained a constant pursuit of WMDs ??

Yes, the US has not found any WMDs to date and even if
they have found them, they haven't disclosed them yet.
Saddam Hussein didn't exactly stock the WMDs at a
neihbourhood 7-11 store !! Why are we in a hurry to
know every element of the search for WMDs right away ?
The previous regime spent over 2 decades creating the
program. They have been experts at deceit. More than 12
years of UN inspections could not account for
everything. And here we are jumping up-and-down about
"Lies about WMDs". Hopefully the US is rounding-up the
many scientists involved in the various programs and
questioning them and hopefully alot of the evidence has
not been lost by the recent looting.

Even after being told to provide the UN with a complete
report of all WMD programs as per resolution 1441 in
late-2002, the ex-regime continued to mislead the UN.
They kept finding documents right until the last week
before the war. They never came clean in over 12 years
of inspections - it's foolhardy and naive, at best, to
expect they ever would !!


On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:15:22 -0400, Santosh
Now, at the risk of someone asking me if I were a
mortician, I would like to ask the partisan how many
deaths justify the expression of relief from his/her
point of view?
+++ In a similar vein, what would you constitute the
existence of a program(s) of WMDs in Iraq - 1 VX tipped
missile ? 10 labs ? 20 vials of bio-agents ? 30
petri-dishes ? 50 scientists ? 100 front companies
doing the procurement.....What ?? What is it that would
satisfy you ?? Would you have preferred for these
weapons to have been used in the recent war, just so
that you could have your proof ??

To expect a man responsible for over a million deaths
to be sincere is definitely imprudent !!


On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:18:08 -0500, Tariq Siddiqui
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip
through any of the US cable networks, the WMD issue
is being downplayed. This seems to bother us and the
rest of the world more, than the average American.
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset
here, than the means of such a victory.
+++ There is no victory until we know the fate of the
Ace-of-Spades !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
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Mervyn Lobo
2003-04-23 02:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote: >
Post by Bosco D'Mello
There is no victory until we know the fate of
the Ace-of-Spades !!
Bosco,
The Americans line is that they do not know what
happened to Saddam (thats why they stopped bombing.)

Now if they succeed in installing the'American way of
life' in Iraq, Saddam sightings are going to become
more popular than Elvis sightings :-)

Mervyn


______________________________________________________________________
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Chimbelcho
2003-04-23 04:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Santosh, it appears, thought it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack thereof. I have consistently >presented facts.
Hi Bosco:

Sorry to upset you. That was not my intention.

Repeating the canard that the Iraq war was necessitated by WMDs, absent any real evidence for them in Iraq, is indeed insulting to my limited intelligence. You have to know how low my intelligence is to realize that it doesn't take much to insult it.
No fiction!! And so have many others. If you are interested in debating the facts - >lets continue the debate.
Right now, WMDs appear to be pure fiction. Come back after you have some facts on them.
If you are interested in debating the facts - lets continue the debate instead of >making eloquent, elitist, intellectual statements that purport to make the rest of us >think that what you are say is necessarily *the* truth to every discussion on this >forum.
You give me more credit than I deserve. I am just an ordinary guy trying to chip in his two cents. You don't have to feel intimidated by me. But thanks for the compliment. Nobody has called my statements eloquent, elitist and intellectual before. Usually, it is just the opposite.
What do you mean by "real historians". Are you implying that you read "real >historians" and the rest of us have educated ourselves with unreal history?
Real historians are people who have acquired specific in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you should not learn history from politicians like George Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts. I don't know from where you have acquired your knowledge of history. But I always keep an open mind about people. And I think there are many among us who have learned their history from the right sources. My knowledge of history is poor. But what little I know I have not learned from Rush Limbaugh.
Why is there a perception that every fact presented by anybody else is unreal??
I don't know what you mean by that. However, if you are referring to my earlier comments, I ask you again not to feel compelled to believe what I say. You are free to believe your own facts more than mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction more than my facts.
Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless they are proven to be anything other than fiction. Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

Cheers,

Santosh
Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-23 16:29:43 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:26:32 -0400, Santosh
<Chimbelcho at aol.com> wrote:

Santosh:

No, my fellow-Goenkar, you did not upset me ! And being
the affable President of Chimbel - No, you are not the
least intimidating but you are misinformed of the facts
and in denial of reality and in doing so are attempting
to influence everybody else's opinion on this
forum.......getting back to the subject......

Since you have an affinity to educate yourself and us
too (thank you) from various websites. Here below find
a few to digest - these are FACTS not speculation by
experts !

The UN has been trying to get to the bottom of Iraq's
WMD-programs since Feb 1991. They have had a lot of
success !! The Iraqis have resorted to a lot of
non-cooperation and deceit instead of coming clean as
per UN resolutions. Before Hans Blix there was Rold
Ekeus and Richard Butler who have been on the trail of
what you refer as "FICTION". The Iraqis have a lot to
account for as far as WMDs are concerned. If you have
the time, please catch-up with the FACTS ! These are
mostly United Nations weblinks so don't dismiss them as
an extension of the current US administration or
neo-conservative philosophy. Starting with UN
resolution 660 in August 1990 there have been over a
dozen UN resolutions that have addressed Iraq. Even
after sanctions were in place in 1990, the ex-regime
maintained and furthered their WMD programs under the
cover of permitted dual-use activities.

Achievements of UNSCOM
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/Achievements/achievements.html
www.un.org/Depts/unscom

Iraqi attempts at not complying with UN resolutions
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/unscmdoc.htm

Last UNMOVIC report (but do run thru the others too)
www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/documents/2003-232.pdf

More UN documents under the Document section @
www.unmovic.org

Since you like reading experts and thinking heads:
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/pdf/Iraq/factsheet/Iraq-ChemBioFactSheet.pdf

www.ceip.org/files/publications/iraq/black.htm

The UN interview with Saddam Hussein's son-in-law !!

www.fair.org/press-releases/kamel.pdf

This (I think) is a news site:
www.megastories.com/iraq/inspect/unscom.htm

But then again there is perception that .com sites
could be mere propaganda.......so no more of those !

The US may not find any WMDs and people like you will
be quick to jump to that and say there was no need to
go to war. There is another perception - because there
was a war, SH's constant pursuit of WMDs have ended. He
will no longer threaten his people or the neighbourhood
or in a greater context use the weapons to terrorize
the world to pay unreasonable sums of money for oil -
which was one of his initial goals !! It's the current
skeptic-thinking that the Iraqis adeptly played to, to
try and fool not just the UN. If the Iraqis did destroy
evidence before the war and there are no WMDs to be
found it does not end the WMD story - there is still
accountability to be addressed as to where the toxins
eventually ended.

I also subscribe to the oil-theory !! US interests are
paramount !! A 1-dollar discount for every barrel of
oil bought from Saudi Arabia for over 20 years (thanks
to Ronald Reagan) has reportedly saved the US billions
of dollars. And who knows what else.

And if you think the French, Russians and Germans
(among others) were anti-war because they wanted to
save the world from another war - Wake up !! Just like
you claim the US administration "brain-washed"
Americans to support the war, the same can be said for
those governments who have only tried to protect their
interests but don't have the gall to stand-up to the
US. The ex-regime in Iraq successful exploited this
division for many years to extend it's survival.
Post by Chimbelcho
Real historians are people who have acquired specific
in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you
should not learn history from politicians like George
Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts.
+++ You are too quick to draw conclusions about others
!! But you're right Rush Limbaugh does not teach
history !! I'm sure most people here never tune(d) into
him. I'll agree with your perception that some in
Washington have an agenda. That is no secret !!
Post by Chimbelcho
You are free to believe your own facts more than
mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction
more than my facts.

+++ Hopefully you will stop being in denial about what
you state to be FICTION is indeed FACTS as far as WMDs
are concerned.
Post by Chimbelcho
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless
they are proven to be anything other than fiction.
Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

+++ There is no need to play the underdog !! We're all
debating this on equal terms !! If you prefer to ignore
the FACT that the ex-regime pursued a WMD-program and
had no credibility in the eyes of many people around
the world, so be it !!

Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!

Best wishes - Bosco

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Chimbelcho
2003-04-20 15:01:07 UTC
Permalink
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least until they come up with a some kind of evidence.

Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.

Cheers,

Santosh
**********************************************************************************

SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction in more than a month of war and occupation

20 April 2003


So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.

But, Mr Blair, where are they? A month has passed since American and British troops entered Iraq, more than a week since the fall of Baghdad. But thus far not even a sniff. Not a drum of VX or mustard gas, not a phial of botulin or anthrax, not a shred of evidence that Iraq was assembling a nuclear weapons programme.

But that wasn't what they told us. Remember Colin Powell at the Security Council two months ago (though today it seems another age on another planet): the charts, the grainy intelligence satellite pictures, the crackly tapes of the intercepted phone conversations among Iraqi officials? How plausible it all sounded, especially when propounded by the most plausible figure in the Bush ad- ministration.

And what about those other claims, wheeled out on various occasions by Messrs Bush, Blair, Cheney and Rumsfeld? The Iraqi drones that were supposed to be able to attack the US east coast, the imports of aluminium tubes allegedly intended for centrifuges to enrich uranium, the unaccounted-for lethal nerve and germ agents, in quantities specified down to the last gallon or pound, as if exact numbers alone constituted proof. All, it seems, egregious products of the imagination of the intelligence services ? one commodity whose existence need never be doubted.

Maybe the Saddam regime was diabolically cunning in the concealment of these weap-ons, but the shambolic manner of its passing suggests otherwise. Maybe, as those "US officials" continue to suggest from behind their comfortable screen of anonymity, the weapons have been shipped to Syria for "safekeeping". But that theory too is dismissed by independent experts.

Indeed, it collapses at the first serious examination. Why should Saddam part with his most effective means of defence, when the survival of his regime and himself was on the line? Nor will that hoary and disingenuous line advanced by our political masters wash any longer ? oh yes, we know a lot more, but if we told you, we would be showing our hand to Saddam and endangering precious intelligence sources.

Just believe us, old boy, the Government told us, and you'll see we were right all along. And the British, being on the whole a reasonable and trusting people, mostly accepted the word of their rulers.

Well, Saddam is now gone. And with him has disappeared any conceivable risk to those intelligence sources (assuming they ever existed). So just what was this information on the basis of which Washington and its faithful ally launched an unprovoked invasion of a ramshackle third world country? A country with a very nasty regime to be sure, but not a great deal nastier than some other potential candidates for "liberation" in the Middle East and elsewhere.

If only for the credibility and reputation of our country, this newspaper hopes that enough weapons of mass destruction will be discovered to justify a war that has grievously weakened the UN, strained the Atlantic alliance and split the European Union.

But they'd better be found pretty soon. Having rushed into war to suit its own military and domestic electoral timetable, the Bush administration now has the nerve to claim that a year may be required to establish the whereabouts of the WMD ? and that it may never do so unless led to them by co-operative Iraqis. But no longer can London and Washington rely simply on the impossibility for the former Iraqi regime to prove a negative, that the weapons do not exist. It is up to the "coalition" of two to provide proof positive that they do.

This pointless war cannot be un-made. But we urgently need to know that the invasion was not illegal as well. With Britain and the US in full control of Iraq, a month should suffice. If no "smoking gun" has turned up by then, a full parliamentary inquiry is essential ? into the competence and accountability of the intelligence services, and into how our Government used them to sell a mistaken and reckless policy.
Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
2003-04-20 19:39:13 UTC
Permalink
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!

Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
Chimbelcho
2003-04-21 06:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So
until then it would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and then there would be no reason to go to war.

Cheers,

Santosh
Tim de Mello
2003-04-21 13:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by noel
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
Let us have patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, >big
country and it is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then >it
would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
======

Isn't this exactly what the world was telling the US administration before
they invaded Iraq?


Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA






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Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-22 14:36:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:01:07 -0400, Santosh
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and
means of delivery have been found, and there really
was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I
wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at
least now or at least until they come up with a
some kind of evidence.
+++ To address the second part of the above para
first......All along I thought we were debating the
issue about the Iraq War. Santosh, it appears, thought
it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack
thereof. I have consistently presented facts. No
fiction !! And so have many others. If you are
interested in debating the facts - lets continue the
debate instead of making eloquent, elitist,
intellectual statements that purport to make the rest
of us think that what you are say is necessarily *the*
truth to every discussion on this forum.

Another of your recent comments......

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 18:24:17 -0400, Santosh
If you are interested in historical arguments, I
suggest you read what real historians and political
scientists have written.
+++ What do you mean by "real historians". Are you
implying that you read "real historians" and the rest
of us have educated ourselves with unreal history ?

Why is there a perception that every fact presented by
anybody else is unreal ??

Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
- Either you are putting my sentences out of context
with the rest of the paragraph or you are obviously
unaware that UN inspectors have discovered and
destroyed WMDs of every kind and the means to deliver
them in the 12 years of the inspection regime from
UNSCOM to UNMOVIC ?? Is it not Hans Blix as recently as
a few weeks before the war and on more than one
occassion, who stated, that the Government of Iraq has
still to account for several thousand tonnes of WMDS ??
Haven't there been scientists who previously worked for
the ex-regime and subsequently defected, declare that
the regime maintained a constant pursuit of WMDs ??

Yes, the US has not found any WMDs to date and even if
they have found them, they haven't disclosed them yet.
Saddam Hussein didn't exactly stock the WMDs at a
neihbourhood 7-11 store !! Why are we in a hurry to
know every element of the search for WMDs right away ?
The previous regime spent over 2 decades creating the
program. They have been experts at deceit. More than 12
years of UN inspections could not account for
everything. And here we are jumping up-and-down about
"Lies about WMDs". Hopefully the US is rounding-up the
many scientists involved in the various programs and
questioning them and hopefully alot of the evidence has
not been lost by the recent looting.

Even after being told to provide the UN with a complete
report of all WMD programs as per resolution 1441 in
late-2002, the ex-regime continued to mislead the UN.
They kept finding documents right until the last week
before the war. They never came clean in over 12 years
of inspections - it's foolhardy and naive, at best, to
expect they ever would !!


On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:15:22 -0400, Santosh
Now, at the risk of someone asking me if I were a
mortician, I would like to ask the partisan how many
deaths justify the expression of relief from his/her
point of view?
+++ In a similar vein, what would you constitute the
existence of a program(s) of WMDs in Iraq - 1 VX tipped
missile ? 10 labs ? 20 vials of bio-agents ? 30
petri-dishes ? 50 scientists ? 100 front companies
doing the procurement.....What ?? What is it that would
satisfy you ?? Would you have preferred for these
weapons to have been used in the recent war, just so
that you could have your proof ??

To expect a man responsible for over a million deaths
to be sincere is definitely imprudent !!


On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:18:08 -0500, Tariq Siddiqui
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip
through any of the US cable networks, the WMD issue
is being downplayed. This seems to bother us and the
rest of the world more, than the average American.
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset
here, than the means of such a victory.
+++ There is no victory until we know the fate of the
Ace-of-Spades !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
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Mervyn Lobo
2003-04-23 02:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote: >
Post by Bosco D'Mello
There is no victory until we know the fate of
the Ace-of-Spades !!
Bosco,
The Americans line is that they do not know what
happened to Saddam (thats why they stopped bombing.)

Now if they succeed in installing the'American way of
life' in Iraq, Saddam sightings are going to become
more popular than Elvis sightings :-)

Mervyn


______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Chimbelcho
2003-04-23 04:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Santosh, it appears, thought it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack thereof. I have consistently >presented facts.
Hi Bosco:

Sorry to upset you. That was not my intention.

Repeating the canard that the Iraq war was necessitated by WMDs, absent any real evidence for them in Iraq, is indeed insulting to my limited intelligence. You have to know how low my intelligence is to realize that it doesn't take much to insult it.
No fiction!! And so have many others. If you are interested in debating the facts - >lets continue the debate.
Right now, WMDs appear to be pure fiction. Come back after you have some facts on them.
If you are interested in debating the facts - lets continue the debate instead of >making eloquent, elitist, intellectual statements that purport to make the rest of us >think that what you are say is necessarily *the* truth to every discussion on this >forum.
You give me more credit than I deserve. I am just an ordinary guy trying to chip in his two cents. You don't have to feel intimidated by me. But thanks for the compliment. Nobody has called my statements eloquent, elitist and intellectual before. Usually, it is just the opposite.
What do you mean by "real historians". Are you implying that you read "real >historians" and the rest of us have educated ourselves with unreal history?
Real historians are people who have acquired specific in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you should not learn history from politicians like George Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts. I don't know from where you have acquired your knowledge of history. But I always keep an open mind about people. And I think there are many among us who have learned their history from the right sources. My knowledge of history is poor. But what little I know I have not learned from Rush Limbaugh.
Why is there a perception that every fact presented by anybody else is unreal??
I don't know what you mean by that. However, if you are referring to my earlier comments, I ask you again not to feel compelled to believe what I say. You are free to believe your own facts more than mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction more than my facts.
Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless they are proven to be anything other than fiction. Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

Cheers,

Santosh
Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-23 16:29:43 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:26:32 -0400, Santosh
<Chimbelcho at aol.com> wrote:

Santosh:

No, my fellow-Goenkar, you did not upset me ! And being
the affable President of Chimbel - No, you are not the
least intimidating but you are misinformed of the facts
and in denial of reality and in doing so are attempting
to influence everybody else's opinion on this
forum.......getting back to the subject......

Since you have an affinity to educate yourself and us
too (thank you) from various websites. Here below find
a few to digest - these are FACTS not speculation by
experts !

The UN has been trying to get to the bottom of Iraq's
WMD-programs since Feb 1991. They have had a lot of
success !! The Iraqis have resorted to a lot of
non-cooperation and deceit instead of coming clean as
per UN resolutions. Before Hans Blix there was Rold
Ekeus and Richard Butler who have been on the trail of
what you refer as "FICTION". The Iraqis have a lot to
account for as far as WMDs are concerned. If you have
the time, please catch-up with the FACTS ! These are
mostly United Nations weblinks so don't dismiss them as
an extension of the current US administration or
neo-conservative philosophy. Starting with UN
resolution 660 in August 1990 there have been over a
dozen UN resolutions that have addressed Iraq. Even
after sanctions were in place in 1990, the ex-regime
maintained and furthered their WMD programs under the
cover of permitted dual-use activities.

Achievements of UNSCOM
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/Achievements/achievements.html
www.un.org/Depts/unscom

Iraqi attempts at not complying with UN resolutions
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/unscmdoc.htm

Last UNMOVIC report (but do run thru the others too)
www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/documents/2003-232.pdf

More UN documents under the Document section @
www.unmovic.org

Since you like reading experts and thinking heads:
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/pdf/Iraq/factsheet/Iraq-ChemBioFactSheet.pdf

www.ceip.org/files/publications/iraq/black.htm

The UN interview with Saddam Hussein's son-in-law !!

www.fair.org/press-releases/kamel.pdf

This (I think) is a news site:
www.megastories.com/iraq/inspect/unscom.htm

But then again there is perception that .com sites
could be mere propaganda.......so no more of those !

The US may not find any WMDs and people like you will
be quick to jump to that and say there was no need to
go to war. There is another perception - because there
was a war, SH's constant pursuit of WMDs have ended. He
will no longer threaten his people or the neighbourhood
or in a greater context use the weapons to terrorize
the world to pay unreasonable sums of money for oil -
which was one of his initial goals !! It's the current
skeptic-thinking that the Iraqis adeptly played to, to
try and fool not just the UN. If the Iraqis did destroy
evidence before the war and there are no WMDs to be
found it does not end the WMD story - there is still
accountability to be addressed as to where the toxins
eventually ended.

I also subscribe to the oil-theory !! US interests are
paramount !! A 1-dollar discount for every barrel of
oil bought from Saudi Arabia for over 20 years (thanks
to Ronald Reagan) has reportedly saved the US billions
of dollars. And who knows what else.

And if you think the French, Russians and Germans
(among others) were anti-war because they wanted to
save the world from another war - Wake up !! Just like
you claim the US administration "brain-washed"
Americans to support the war, the same can be said for
those governments who have only tried to protect their
interests but don't have the gall to stand-up to the
US. The ex-regime in Iraq successful exploited this
division for many years to extend it's survival.
Post by Chimbelcho
Real historians are people who have acquired specific
in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you
should not learn history from politicians like George
Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts.
+++ You are too quick to draw conclusions about others
!! But you're right Rush Limbaugh does not teach
history !! I'm sure most people here never tune(d) into
him. I'll agree with your perception that some in
Washington have an agenda. That is no secret !!
Post by Chimbelcho
You are free to believe your own facts more than
mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction
more than my facts.

+++ Hopefully you will stop being in denial about what
you state to be FICTION is indeed FACTS as far as WMDs
are concerned.
Post by Chimbelcho
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless
they are proven to be anything other than fiction.
Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

+++ There is no need to play the underdog !! We're all
debating this on equal terms !! If you prefer to ignore
the FACT that the ex-regime pursued a WMD-program and
had no credibility in the eyes of many people around
the world, so be it !!

Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com
Chimbelcho
2003-04-20 15:01:07 UTC
Permalink
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least until they come up with a some kind of evidence.

Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.

Cheers,

Santosh
**********************************************************************************

SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction in more than a month of war and occupation

20 April 2003


So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.

But, Mr Blair, where are they? A month has passed since American and British troops entered Iraq, more than a week since the fall of Baghdad. But thus far not even a sniff. Not a drum of VX or mustard gas, not a phial of botulin or anthrax, not a shred of evidence that Iraq was assembling a nuclear weapons programme.

But that wasn't what they told us. Remember Colin Powell at the Security Council two months ago (though today it seems another age on another planet): the charts, the grainy intelligence satellite pictures, the crackly tapes of the intercepted phone conversations among Iraqi officials? How plausible it all sounded, especially when propounded by the most plausible figure in the Bush ad- ministration.

And what about those other claims, wheeled out on various occasions by Messrs Bush, Blair, Cheney and Rumsfeld? The Iraqi drones that were supposed to be able to attack the US east coast, the imports of aluminium tubes allegedly intended for centrifuges to enrich uranium, the unaccounted-for lethal nerve and germ agents, in quantities specified down to the last gallon or pound, as if exact numbers alone constituted proof. All, it seems, egregious products of the imagination of the intelligence services ? one commodity whose existence need never be doubted.

Maybe the Saddam regime was diabolically cunning in the concealment of these weap-ons, but the shambolic manner of its passing suggests otherwise. Maybe, as those "US officials" continue to suggest from behind their comfortable screen of anonymity, the weapons have been shipped to Syria for "safekeeping". But that theory too is dismissed by independent experts.

Indeed, it collapses at the first serious examination. Why should Saddam part with his most effective means of defence, when the survival of his regime and himself was on the line? Nor will that hoary and disingenuous line advanced by our political masters wash any longer ? oh yes, we know a lot more, but if we told you, we would be showing our hand to Saddam and endangering precious intelligence sources.

Just believe us, old boy, the Government told us, and you'll see we were right all along. And the British, being on the whole a reasonable and trusting people, mostly accepted the word of their rulers.

Well, Saddam is now gone. And with him has disappeared any conceivable risk to those intelligence sources (assuming they ever existed). So just what was this information on the basis of which Washington and its faithful ally launched an unprovoked invasion of a ramshackle third world country? A country with a very nasty regime to be sure, but not a great deal nastier than some other potential candidates for "liberation" in the Middle East and elsewhere.

If only for the credibility and reputation of our country, this newspaper hopes that enough weapons of mass destruction will be discovered to justify a war that has grievously weakened the UN, strained the Atlantic alliance and split the European Union.

But they'd better be found pretty soon. Having rushed into war to suit its own military and domestic electoral timetable, the Bush administration now has the nerve to claim that a year may be required to establish the whereabouts of the WMD ? and that it may never do so unless led to them by co-operative Iraqis. But no longer can London and Washington rely simply on the impossibility for the former Iraqi regime to prove a negative, that the weapons do not exist. It is up to the "coalition" of two to provide proof positive that they do.

This pointless war cannot be un-made. But we urgently need to know that the invasion was not illegal as well. With Britain and the US in full control of Iraq, a month should suffice. If no "smoking gun" has turned up by then, a full parliamentary inquiry is essential ? into the competence and accountability of the intelligence services, and into how our Government used them to sell a mistaken and reckless policy.
Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
2003-04-20 19:39:13 UTC
Permalink
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!

Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
Chimbelcho
2003-04-21 06:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So
until then it would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and then there would be no reason to go to war.

Cheers,

Santosh
Tim de Mello
2003-04-21 13:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by noel
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
Let us have patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, >big
country and it is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then >it
would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
======

Isn't this exactly what the world was telling the US administration before
they invaded Iraq?


Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA






_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-22 14:36:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:01:07 -0400, Santosh
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and
means of delivery have been found, and there really
was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I
wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at
least now or at least until they come up with a
some kind of evidence.
+++ To address the second part of the above para
first......All along I thought we were debating the
issue about the Iraq War. Santosh, it appears, thought
it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack
thereof. I have consistently presented facts. No
fiction !! And so have many others. If you are
interested in debating the facts - lets continue the
debate instead of making eloquent, elitist,
intellectual statements that purport to make the rest
of us think that what you are say is necessarily *the*
truth to every discussion on this forum.

Another of your recent comments......

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 18:24:17 -0400, Santosh
If you are interested in historical arguments, I
suggest you read what real historians and political
scientists have written.
+++ What do you mean by "real historians". Are you
implying that you read "real historians" and the rest
of us have educated ourselves with unreal history ?

Why is there a perception that every fact presented by
anybody else is unreal ??

Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
- Either you are putting my sentences out of context
with the rest of the paragraph or you are obviously
unaware that UN inspectors have discovered and
destroyed WMDs of every kind and the means to deliver
them in the 12 years of the inspection regime from
UNSCOM to UNMOVIC ?? Is it not Hans Blix as recently as
a few weeks before the war and on more than one
occassion, who stated, that the Government of Iraq has
still to account for several thousand tonnes of WMDS ??
Haven't there been scientists who previously worked for
the ex-regime and subsequently defected, declare that
the regime maintained a constant pursuit of WMDs ??

Yes, the US has not found any WMDs to date and even if
they have found them, they haven't disclosed them yet.
Saddam Hussein didn't exactly stock the WMDs at a
neihbourhood 7-11 store !! Why are we in a hurry to
know every element of the search for WMDs right away ?
The previous regime spent over 2 decades creating the
program. They have been experts at deceit. More than 12
years of UN inspections could not account for
everything. And here we are jumping up-and-down about
"Lies about WMDs". Hopefully the US is rounding-up the
many scientists involved in the various programs and
questioning them and hopefully alot of the evidence has
not been lost by the recent looting.

Even after being told to provide the UN with a complete
report of all WMD programs as per resolution 1441 in
late-2002, the ex-regime continued to mislead the UN.
They kept finding documents right until the last week
before the war. They never came clean in over 12 years
of inspections - it's foolhardy and naive, at best, to
expect they ever would !!


On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:15:22 -0400, Santosh
Now, at the risk of someone asking me if I were a
mortician, I would like to ask the partisan how many
deaths justify the expression of relief from his/her
point of view?
+++ In a similar vein, what would you constitute the
existence of a program(s) of WMDs in Iraq - 1 VX tipped
missile ? 10 labs ? 20 vials of bio-agents ? 30
petri-dishes ? 50 scientists ? 100 front companies
doing the procurement.....What ?? What is it that would
satisfy you ?? Would you have preferred for these
weapons to have been used in the recent war, just so
that you could have your proof ??

To expect a man responsible for over a million deaths
to be sincere is definitely imprudent !!


On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:18:08 -0500, Tariq Siddiqui
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip
through any of the US cable networks, the WMD issue
is being downplayed. This seems to bother us and the
rest of the world more, than the average American.
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset
here, than the means of such a victory.
+++ There is no victory until we know the fate of the
Ace-of-Spades !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com
Mervyn Lobo
2003-04-23 02:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote: >
Post by Bosco D'Mello
There is no victory until we know the fate of
the Ace-of-Spades !!
Bosco,
The Americans line is that they do not know what
happened to Saddam (thats why they stopped bombing.)

Now if they succeed in installing the'American way of
life' in Iraq, Saddam sightings are going to become
more popular than Elvis sightings :-)

Mervyn


______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Chimbelcho
2003-04-23 04:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Santosh, it appears, thought it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack thereof. I have consistently >presented facts.
Hi Bosco:

Sorry to upset you. That was not my intention.

Repeating the canard that the Iraq war was necessitated by WMDs, absent any real evidence for them in Iraq, is indeed insulting to my limited intelligence. You have to know how low my intelligence is to realize that it doesn't take much to insult it.
No fiction!! And so have many others. If you are interested in debating the facts - >lets continue the debate.
Right now, WMDs appear to be pure fiction. Come back after you have some facts on them.
If you are interested in debating the facts - lets continue the debate instead of >making eloquent, elitist, intellectual statements that purport to make the rest of us >think that what you are say is necessarily *the* truth to every discussion on this >forum.
You give me more credit than I deserve. I am just an ordinary guy trying to chip in his two cents. You don't have to feel intimidated by me. But thanks for the compliment. Nobody has called my statements eloquent, elitist and intellectual before. Usually, it is just the opposite.
What do you mean by "real historians". Are you implying that you read "real >historians" and the rest of us have educated ourselves with unreal history?
Real historians are people who have acquired specific in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you should not learn history from politicians like George Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts. I don't know from where you have acquired your knowledge of history. But I always keep an open mind about people. And I think there are many among us who have learned their history from the right sources. My knowledge of history is poor. But what little I know I have not learned from Rush Limbaugh.
Why is there a perception that every fact presented by anybody else is unreal??
I don't know what you mean by that. However, if you are referring to my earlier comments, I ask you again not to feel compelled to believe what I say. You are free to believe your own facts more than mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction more than my facts.
Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless they are proven to be anything other than fiction. Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

Cheers,

Santosh
Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-23 16:29:43 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:26:32 -0400, Santosh
<Chimbelcho at aol.com> wrote:

Santosh:

No, my fellow-Goenkar, you did not upset me ! And being
the affable President of Chimbel - No, you are not the
least intimidating but you are misinformed of the facts
and in denial of reality and in doing so are attempting
to influence everybody else's opinion on this
forum.......getting back to the subject......

Since you have an affinity to educate yourself and us
too (thank you) from various websites. Here below find
a few to digest - these are FACTS not speculation by
experts !

The UN has been trying to get to the bottom of Iraq's
WMD-programs since Feb 1991. They have had a lot of
success !! The Iraqis have resorted to a lot of
non-cooperation and deceit instead of coming clean as
per UN resolutions. Before Hans Blix there was Rold
Ekeus and Richard Butler who have been on the trail of
what you refer as "FICTION". The Iraqis have a lot to
account for as far as WMDs are concerned. If you have
the time, please catch-up with the FACTS ! These are
mostly United Nations weblinks so don't dismiss them as
an extension of the current US administration or
neo-conservative philosophy. Starting with UN
resolution 660 in August 1990 there have been over a
dozen UN resolutions that have addressed Iraq. Even
after sanctions were in place in 1990, the ex-regime
maintained and furthered their WMD programs under the
cover of permitted dual-use activities.

Achievements of UNSCOM
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/Achievements/achievements.html
www.un.org/Depts/unscom

Iraqi attempts at not complying with UN resolutions
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/unscmdoc.htm

Last UNMOVIC report (but do run thru the others too)
www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/documents/2003-232.pdf

More UN documents under the Document section @
www.unmovic.org

Since you like reading experts and thinking heads:
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/pdf/Iraq/factsheet/Iraq-ChemBioFactSheet.pdf

www.ceip.org/files/publications/iraq/black.htm

The UN interview with Saddam Hussein's son-in-law !!

www.fair.org/press-releases/kamel.pdf

This (I think) is a news site:
www.megastories.com/iraq/inspect/unscom.htm

But then again there is perception that .com sites
could be mere propaganda.......so no more of those !

The US may not find any WMDs and people like you will
be quick to jump to that and say there was no need to
go to war. There is another perception - because there
was a war, SH's constant pursuit of WMDs have ended. He
will no longer threaten his people or the neighbourhood
or in a greater context use the weapons to terrorize
the world to pay unreasonable sums of money for oil -
which was one of his initial goals !! It's the current
skeptic-thinking that the Iraqis adeptly played to, to
try and fool not just the UN. If the Iraqis did destroy
evidence before the war and there are no WMDs to be
found it does not end the WMD story - there is still
accountability to be addressed as to where the toxins
eventually ended.

I also subscribe to the oil-theory !! US interests are
paramount !! A 1-dollar discount for every barrel of
oil bought from Saudi Arabia for over 20 years (thanks
to Ronald Reagan) has reportedly saved the US billions
of dollars. And who knows what else.

And if you think the French, Russians and Germans
(among others) were anti-war because they wanted to
save the world from another war - Wake up !! Just like
you claim the US administration "brain-washed"
Americans to support the war, the same can be said for
those governments who have only tried to protect their
interests but don't have the gall to stand-up to the
US. The ex-regime in Iraq successful exploited this
division for many years to extend it's survival.
Post by Chimbelcho
Real historians are people who have acquired specific
in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you
should not learn history from politicians like George
Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts.
+++ You are too quick to draw conclusions about others
!! But you're right Rush Limbaugh does not teach
history !! I'm sure most people here never tune(d) into
him. I'll agree with your perception that some in
Washington have an agenda. That is no secret !!
Post by Chimbelcho
You are free to believe your own facts more than
mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction
more than my facts.

+++ Hopefully you will stop being in denial about what
you state to be FICTION is indeed FACTS as far as WMDs
are concerned.
Post by Chimbelcho
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless
they are proven to be anything other than fiction.
Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

+++ There is no need to play the underdog !! We're all
debating this on equal terms !! If you prefer to ignore
the FACT that the ex-regime pursued a WMD-program and
had no credibility in the eyes of many people around
the world, so be it !!

Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com
Chimbelcho
2003-04-20 15:01:07 UTC
Permalink
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least until they come up with a some kind of evidence.

Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.

Cheers,

Santosh
**********************************************************************************

SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction in more than a month of war and occupation

20 April 2003


So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.

But, Mr Blair, where are they? A month has passed since American and British troops entered Iraq, more than a week since the fall of Baghdad. But thus far not even a sniff. Not a drum of VX or mustard gas, not a phial of botulin or anthrax, not a shred of evidence that Iraq was assembling a nuclear weapons programme.

But that wasn't what they told us. Remember Colin Powell at the Security Council two months ago (though today it seems another age on another planet): the charts, the grainy intelligence satellite pictures, the crackly tapes of the intercepted phone conversations among Iraqi officials? How plausible it all sounded, especially when propounded by the most plausible figure in the Bush ad- ministration.

And what about those other claims, wheeled out on various occasions by Messrs Bush, Blair, Cheney and Rumsfeld? The Iraqi drones that were supposed to be able to attack the US east coast, the imports of aluminium tubes allegedly intended for centrifuges to enrich uranium, the unaccounted-for lethal nerve and germ agents, in quantities specified down to the last gallon or pound, as if exact numbers alone constituted proof. All, it seems, egregious products of the imagination of the intelligence services ? one commodity whose existence need never be doubted.

Maybe the Saddam regime was diabolically cunning in the concealment of these weap-ons, but the shambolic manner of its passing suggests otherwise. Maybe, as those "US officials" continue to suggest from behind their comfortable screen of anonymity, the weapons have been shipped to Syria for "safekeeping". But that theory too is dismissed by independent experts.

Indeed, it collapses at the first serious examination. Why should Saddam part with his most effective means of defence, when the survival of his regime and himself was on the line? Nor will that hoary and disingenuous line advanced by our political masters wash any longer ? oh yes, we know a lot more, but if we told you, we would be showing our hand to Saddam and endangering precious intelligence sources.

Just believe us, old boy, the Government told us, and you'll see we were right all along. And the British, being on the whole a reasonable and trusting people, mostly accepted the word of their rulers.

Well, Saddam is now gone. And with him has disappeared any conceivable risk to those intelligence sources (assuming they ever existed). So just what was this information on the basis of which Washington and its faithful ally launched an unprovoked invasion of a ramshackle third world country? A country with a very nasty regime to be sure, but not a great deal nastier than some other potential candidates for "liberation" in the Middle East and elsewhere.

If only for the credibility and reputation of our country, this newspaper hopes that enough weapons of mass destruction will be discovered to justify a war that has grievously weakened the UN, strained the Atlantic alliance and split the European Union.

But they'd better be found pretty soon. Having rushed into war to suit its own military and domestic electoral timetable, the Bush administration now has the nerve to claim that a year may be required to establish the whereabouts of the WMD ? and that it may never do so unless led to them by co-operative Iraqis. But no longer can London and Washington rely simply on the impossibility for the former Iraqi regime to prove a negative, that the weapons do not exist. It is up to the "coalition" of two to provide proof positive that they do.

This pointless war cannot be un-made. But we urgently need to know that the invasion was not illegal as well. With Britain and the US in full control of Iraq, a month should suffice. If no "smoking gun" has turned up by then, a full parliamentary inquiry is essential ? into the competence and accountability of the intelligence services, and into how our Government used them to sell a mistaken and reckless policy.
Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
2003-04-20 19:39:13 UTC
Permalink
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!

Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
Chimbelcho
2003-04-21 06:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So
until then it would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and then there would be no reason to go to war.

Cheers,

Santosh
Tim de Mello
2003-04-21 13:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by noel
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
Let us have patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, >big
country and it is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then >it
would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
======

Isn't this exactly what the world was telling the US administration before
they invaded Iraq?


Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA






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Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-22 14:36:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:01:07 -0400, Santosh
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and
means of delivery have been found, and there really
was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I
wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at
least now or at least until they come up with a
some kind of evidence.
+++ To address the second part of the above para
first......All along I thought we were debating the
issue about the Iraq War. Santosh, it appears, thought
it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack
thereof. I have consistently presented facts. No
fiction !! And so have many others. If you are
interested in debating the facts - lets continue the
debate instead of making eloquent, elitist,
intellectual statements that purport to make the rest
of us think that what you are say is necessarily *the*
truth to every discussion on this forum.

Another of your recent comments......

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 18:24:17 -0400, Santosh
If you are interested in historical arguments, I
suggest you read what real historians and political
scientists have written.
+++ What do you mean by "real historians". Are you
implying that you read "real historians" and the rest
of us have educated ourselves with unreal history ?

Why is there a perception that every fact presented by
anybody else is unreal ??

Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
- Either you are putting my sentences out of context
with the rest of the paragraph or you are obviously
unaware that UN inspectors have discovered and
destroyed WMDs of every kind and the means to deliver
them in the 12 years of the inspection regime from
UNSCOM to UNMOVIC ?? Is it not Hans Blix as recently as
a few weeks before the war and on more than one
occassion, who stated, that the Government of Iraq has
still to account for several thousand tonnes of WMDS ??
Haven't there been scientists who previously worked for
the ex-regime and subsequently defected, declare that
the regime maintained a constant pursuit of WMDs ??

Yes, the US has not found any WMDs to date and even if
they have found them, they haven't disclosed them yet.
Saddam Hussein didn't exactly stock the WMDs at a
neihbourhood 7-11 store !! Why are we in a hurry to
know every element of the search for WMDs right away ?
The previous regime spent over 2 decades creating the
program. They have been experts at deceit. More than 12
years of UN inspections could not account for
everything. And here we are jumping up-and-down about
"Lies about WMDs". Hopefully the US is rounding-up the
many scientists involved in the various programs and
questioning them and hopefully alot of the evidence has
not been lost by the recent looting.

Even after being told to provide the UN with a complete
report of all WMD programs as per resolution 1441 in
late-2002, the ex-regime continued to mislead the UN.
They kept finding documents right until the last week
before the war. They never came clean in over 12 years
of inspections - it's foolhardy and naive, at best, to
expect they ever would !!


On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:15:22 -0400, Santosh
Now, at the risk of someone asking me if I were a
mortician, I would like to ask the partisan how many
deaths justify the expression of relief from his/her
point of view?
+++ In a similar vein, what would you constitute the
existence of a program(s) of WMDs in Iraq - 1 VX tipped
missile ? 10 labs ? 20 vials of bio-agents ? 30
petri-dishes ? 50 scientists ? 100 front companies
doing the procurement.....What ?? What is it that would
satisfy you ?? Would you have preferred for these
weapons to have been used in the recent war, just so
that you could have your proof ??

To expect a man responsible for over a million deaths
to be sincere is definitely imprudent !!


On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:18:08 -0500, Tariq Siddiqui
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip
through any of the US cable networks, the WMD issue
is being downplayed. This seems to bother us and the
rest of the world more, than the average American.
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset
here, than the means of such a victory.
+++ There is no victory until we know the fate of the
Ace-of-Spades !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
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Mervyn Lobo
2003-04-23 02:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote: >
Post by Bosco D'Mello
There is no victory until we know the fate of
the Ace-of-Spades !!
Bosco,
The Americans line is that they do not know what
happened to Saddam (thats why they stopped bombing.)

Now if they succeed in installing the'American way of
life' in Iraq, Saddam sightings are going to become
more popular than Elvis sightings :-)

Mervyn


______________________________________________________________________
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Chimbelcho
2003-04-23 04:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Santosh, it appears, thought it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack thereof. I have consistently >presented facts.
Hi Bosco:

Sorry to upset you. That was not my intention.

Repeating the canard that the Iraq war was necessitated by WMDs, absent any real evidence for them in Iraq, is indeed insulting to my limited intelligence. You have to know how low my intelligence is to realize that it doesn't take much to insult it.
No fiction!! And so have many others. If you are interested in debating the facts - >lets continue the debate.
Right now, WMDs appear to be pure fiction. Come back after you have some facts on them.
If you are interested in debating the facts - lets continue the debate instead of >making eloquent, elitist, intellectual statements that purport to make the rest of us >think that what you are say is necessarily *the* truth to every discussion on this >forum.
You give me more credit than I deserve. I am just an ordinary guy trying to chip in his two cents. You don't have to feel intimidated by me. But thanks for the compliment. Nobody has called my statements eloquent, elitist and intellectual before. Usually, it is just the opposite.
What do you mean by "real historians". Are you implying that you read "real >historians" and the rest of us have educated ourselves with unreal history?
Real historians are people who have acquired specific in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you should not learn history from politicians like George Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts. I don't know from where you have acquired your knowledge of history. But I always keep an open mind about people. And I think there are many among us who have learned their history from the right sources. My knowledge of history is poor. But what little I know I have not learned from Rush Limbaugh.
Why is there a perception that every fact presented by anybody else is unreal??
I don't know what you mean by that. However, if you are referring to my earlier comments, I ask you again not to feel compelled to believe what I say. You are free to believe your own facts more than mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction more than my facts.
Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless they are proven to be anything other than fiction. Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

Cheers,

Santosh
Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-23 16:29:43 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:26:32 -0400, Santosh
<Chimbelcho at aol.com> wrote:

Santosh:

No, my fellow-Goenkar, you did not upset me ! And being
the affable President of Chimbel - No, you are not the
least intimidating but you are misinformed of the facts
and in denial of reality and in doing so are attempting
to influence everybody else's opinion on this
forum.......getting back to the subject......

Since you have an affinity to educate yourself and us
too (thank you) from various websites. Here below find
a few to digest - these are FACTS not speculation by
experts !

The UN has been trying to get to the bottom of Iraq's
WMD-programs since Feb 1991. They have had a lot of
success !! The Iraqis have resorted to a lot of
non-cooperation and deceit instead of coming clean as
per UN resolutions. Before Hans Blix there was Rold
Ekeus and Richard Butler who have been on the trail of
what you refer as "FICTION". The Iraqis have a lot to
account for as far as WMDs are concerned. If you have
the time, please catch-up with the FACTS ! These are
mostly United Nations weblinks so don't dismiss them as
an extension of the current US administration or
neo-conservative philosophy. Starting with UN
resolution 660 in August 1990 there have been over a
dozen UN resolutions that have addressed Iraq. Even
after sanctions were in place in 1990, the ex-regime
maintained and furthered their WMD programs under the
cover of permitted dual-use activities.

Achievements of UNSCOM
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/Achievements/achievements.html
www.un.org/Depts/unscom

Iraqi attempts at not complying with UN resolutions
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/unscmdoc.htm

Last UNMOVIC report (but do run thru the others too)
www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/documents/2003-232.pdf

More UN documents under the Document section @
www.unmovic.org

Since you like reading experts and thinking heads:
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/pdf/Iraq/factsheet/Iraq-ChemBioFactSheet.pdf

www.ceip.org/files/publications/iraq/black.htm

The UN interview with Saddam Hussein's son-in-law !!

www.fair.org/press-releases/kamel.pdf

This (I think) is a news site:
www.megastories.com/iraq/inspect/unscom.htm

But then again there is perception that .com sites
could be mere propaganda.......so no more of those !

The US may not find any WMDs and people like you will
be quick to jump to that and say there was no need to
go to war. There is another perception - because there
was a war, SH's constant pursuit of WMDs have ended. He
will no longer threaten his people or the neighbourhood
or in a greater context use the weapons to terrorize
the world to pay unreasonable sums of money for oil -
which was one of his initial goals !! It's the current
skeptic-thinking that the Iraqis adeptly played to, to
try and fool not just the UN. If the Iraqis did destroy
evidence before the war and there are no WMDs to be
found it does not end the WMD story - there is still
accountability to be addressed as to where the toxins
eventually ended.

I also subscribe to the oil-theory !! US interests are
paramount !! A 1-dollar discount for every barrel of
oil bought from Saudi Arabia for over 20 years (thanks
to Ronald Reagan) has reportedly saved the US billions
of dollars. And who knows what else.

And if you think the French, Russians and Germans
(among others) were anti-war because they wanted to
save the world from another war - Wake up !! Just like
you claim the US administration "brain-washed"
Americans to support the war, the same can be said for
those governments who have only tried to protect their
interests but don't have the gall to stand-up to the
US. The ex-regime in Iraq successful exploited this
division for many years to extend it's survival.
Post by Chimbelcho
Real historians are people who have acquired specific
in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you
should not learn history from politicians like George
Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts.
+++ You are too quick to draw conclusions about others
!! But you're right Rush Limbaugh does not teach
history !! I'm sure most people here never tune(d) into
him. I'll agree with your perception that some in
Washington have an agenda. That is no secret !!
Post by Chimbelcho
You are free to believe your own facts more than
mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction
more than my facts.

+++ Hopefully you will stop being in denial about what
you state to be FICTION is indeed FACTS as far as WMDs
are concerned.
Post by Chimbelcho
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless
they are proven to be anything other than fiction.
Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

+++ There is no need to play the underdog !! We're all
debating this on equal terms !! If you prefer to ignore
the FACT that the ex-regime pursued a WMD-program and
had no credibility in the eyes of many people around
the world, so be it !!

Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
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Chimbelcho
2003-04-20 15:01:07 UTC
Permalink
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least until they come up with a some kind of evidence.

Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.

Cheers,

Santosh
**********************************************************************************

SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction in more than a month of war and occupation

20 April 2003


So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.

But, Mr Blair, where are they? A month has passed since American and British troops entered Iraq, more than a week since the fall of Baghdad. But thus far not even a sniff. Not a drum of VX or mustard gas, not a phial of botulin or anthrax, not a shred of evidence that Iraq was assembling a nuclear weapons programme.

But that wasn't what they told us. Remember Colin Powell at the Security Council two months ago (though today it seems another age on another planet): the charts, the grainy intelligence satellite pictures, the crackly tapes of the intercepted phone conversations among Iraqi officials? How plausible it all sounded, especially when propounded by the most plausible figure in the Bush ad- ministration.

And what about those other claims, wheeled out on various occasions by Messrs Bush, Blair, Cheney and Rumsfeld? The Iraqi drones that were supposed to be able to attack the US east coast, the imports of aluminium tubes allegedly intended for centrifuges to enrich uranium, the unaccounted-for lethal nerve and germ agents, in quantities specified down to the last gallon or pound, as if exact numbers alone constituted proof. All, it seems, egregious products of the imagination of the intelligence services ? one commodity whose existence need never be doubted.

Maybe the Saddam regime was diabolically cunning in the concealment of these weap-ons, but the shambolic manner of its passing suggests otherwise. Maybe, as those "US officials" continue to suggest from behind their comfortable screen of anonymity, the weapons have been shipped to Syria for "safekeeping". But that theory too is dismissed by independent experts.

Indeed, it collapses at the first serious examination. Why should Saddam part with his most effective means of defence, when the survival of his regime and himself was on the line? Nor will that hoary and disingenuous line advanced by our political masters wash any longer ? oh yes, we know a lot more, but if we told you, we would be showing our hand to Saddam and endangering precious intelligence sources.

Just believe us, old boy, the Government told us, and you'll see we were right all along. And the British, being on the whole a reasonable and trusting people, mostly accepted the word of their rulers.

Well, Saddam is now gone. And with him has disappeared any conceivable risk to those intelligence sources (assuming they ever existed). So just what was this information on the basis of which Washington and its faithful ally launched an unprovoked invasion of a ramshackle third world country? A country with a very nasty regime to be sure, but not a great deal nastier than some other potential candidates for "liberation" in the Middle East and elsewhere.

If only for the credibility and reputation of our country, this newspaper hopes that enough weapons of mass destruction will be discovered to justify a war that has grievously weakened the UN, strained the Atlantic alliance and split the European Union.

But they'd better be found pretty soon. Having rushed into war to suit its own military and domestic electoral timetable, the Bush administration now has the nerve to claim that a year may be required to establish the whereabouts of the WMD ? and that it may never do so unless led to them by co-operative Iraqis. But no longer can London and Washington rely simply on the impossibility for the former Iraqi regime to prove a negative, that the weapons do not exist. It is up to the "coalition" of two to provide proof positive that they do.

This pointless war cannot be un-made. But we urgently need to know that the invasion was not illegal as well. With Britain and the US in full control of Iraq, a month should suffice. If no "smoking gun" has turned up by then, a full parliamentary inquiry is essential ? into the competence and accountability of the intelligence services, and into how our Government used them to sell a mistaken and reckless policy.
Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
2003-04-20 19:39:13 UTC
Permalink
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!

Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
Chimbelcho
2003-04-21 06:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So
until then it would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and then there would be no reason to go to war.

Cheers,

Santosh
Tim de Mello
2003-04-21 13:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by noel
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
Let us have patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, >big
country and it is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then >it
would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
======

Isn't this exactly what the world was telling the US administration before
they invaded Iraq?


Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA






_________________________________________________________________
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Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-22 14:36:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:01:07 -0400, Santosh
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and
means of delivery have been found, and there really
was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I
wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at
least now or at least until they come up with a
some kind of evidence.
+++ To address the second part of the above para
first......All along I thought we were debating the
issue about the Iraq War. Santosh, it appears, thought
it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack
thereof. I have consistently presented facts. No
fiction !! And so have many others. If you are
interested in debating the facts - lets continue the
debate instead of making eloquent, elitist,
intellectual statements that purport to make the rest
of us think that what you are say is necessarily *the*
truth to every discussion on this forum.

Another of your recent comments......

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 18:24:17 -0400, Santosh
If you are interested in historical arguments, I
suggest you read what real historians and political
scientists have written.
+++ What do you mean by "real historians". Are you
implying that you read "real historians" and the rest
of us have educated ourselves with unreal history ?

Why is there a perception that every fact presented by
anybody else is unreal ??

Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
- Either you are putting my sentences out of context
with the rest of the paragraph or you are obviously
unaware that UN inspectors have discovered and
destroyed WMDs of every kind and the means to deliver
them in the 12 years of the inspection regime from
UNSCOM to UNMOVIC ?? Is it not Hans Blix as recently as
a few weeks before the war and on more than one
occassion, who stated, that the Government of Iraq has
still to account for several thousand tonnes of WMDS ??
Haven't there been scientists who previously worked for
the ex-regime and subsequently defected, declare that
the regime maintained a constant pursuit of WMDs ??

Yes, the US has not found any WMDs to date and even if
they have found them, they haven't disclosed them yet.
Saddam Hussein didn't exactly stock the WMDs at a
neihbourhood 7-11 store !! Why are we in a hurry to
know every element of the search for WMDs right away ?
The previous regime spent over 2 decades creating the
program. They have been experts at deceit. More than 12
years of UN inspections could not account for
everything. And here we are jumping up-and-down about
"Lies about WMDs". Hopefully the US is rounding-up the
many scientists involved in the various programs and
questioning them and hopefully alot of the evidence has
not been lost by the recent looting.

Even after being told to provide the UN with a complete
report of all WMD programs as per resolution 1441 in
late-2002, the ex-regime continued to mislead the UN.
They kept finding documents right until the last week
before the war. They never came clean in over 12 years
of inspections - it's foolhardy and naive, at best, to
expect they ever would !!


On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:15:22 -0400, Santosh
Now, at the risk of someone asking me if I were a
mortician, I would like to ask the partisan how many
deaths justify the expression of relief from his/her
point of view?
+++ In a similar vein, what would you constitute the
existence of a program(s) of WMDs in Iraq - 1 VX tipped
missile ? 10 labs ? 20 vials of bio-agents ? 30
petri-dishes ? 50 scientists ? 100 front companies
doing the procurement.....What ?? What is it that would
satisfy you ?? Would you have preferred for these
weapons to have been used in the recent war, just so
that you could have your proof ??

To expect a man responsible for over a million deaths
to be sincere is definitely imprudent !!


On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:18:08 -0500, Tariq Siddiqui
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip
through any of the US cable networks, the WMD issue
is being downplayed. This seems to bother us and the
rest of the world more, than the average American.
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset
here, than the means of such a victory.
+++ There is no victory until we know the fate of the
Ace-of-Spades !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com
Mervyn Lobo
2003-04-23 02:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote: >
Post by Bosco D'Mello
There is no victory until we know the fate of
the Ace-of-Spades !!
Bosco,
The Americans line is that they do not know what
happened to Saddam (thats why they stopped bombing.)

Now if they succeed in installing the'American way of
life' in Iraq, Saddam sightings are going to become
more popular than Elvis sightings :-)

Mervyn


______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Chimbelcho
2003-04-23 04:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Santosh, it appears, thought it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack thereof. I have consistently >presented facts.
Hi Bosco:

Sorry to upset you. That was not my intention.

Repeating the canard that the Iraq war was necessitated by WMDs, absent any real evidence for them in Iraq, is indeed insulting to my limited intelligence. You have to know how low my intelligence is to realize that it doesn't take much to insult it.
No fiction!! And so have many others. If you are interested in debating the facts - >lets continue the debate.
Right now, WMDs appear to be pure fiction. Come back after you have some facts on them.
If you are interested in debating the facts - lets continue the debate instead of >making eloquent, elitist, intellectual statements that purport to make the rest of us >think that what you are say is necessarily *the* truth to every discussion on this >forum.
You give me more credit than I deserve. I am just an ordinary guy trying to chip in his two cents. You don't have to feel intimidated by me. But thanks for the compliment. Nobody has called my statements eloquent, elitist and intellectual before. Usually, it is just the opposite.
What do you mean by "real historians". Are you implying that you read "real >historians" and the rest of us have educated ourselves with unreal history?
Real historians are people who have acquired specific in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you should not learn history from politicians like George Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts. I don't know from where you have acquired your knowledge of history. But I always keep an open mind about people. And I think there are many among us who have learned their history from the right sources. My knowledge of history is poor. But what little I know I have not learned from Rush Limbaugh.
Why is there a perception that every fact presented by anybody else is unreal??
I don't know what you mean by that. However, if you are referring to my earlier comments, I ask you again not to feel compelled to believe what I say. You are free to believe your own facts more than mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction more than my facts.
Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless they are proven to be anything other than fiction. Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

Cheers,

Santosh
Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-23 16:29:43 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:26:32 -0400, Santosh
<Chimbelcho at aol.com> wrote:

Santosh:

No, my fellow-Goenkar, you did not upset me ! And being
the affable President of Chimbel - No, you are not the
least intimidating but you are misinformed of the facts
and in denial of reality and in doing so are attempting
to influence everybody else's opinion on this
forum.......getting back to the subject......

Since you have an affinity to educate yourself and us
too (thank you) from various websites. Here below find
a few to digest - these are FACTS not speculation by
experts !

The UN has been trying to get to the bottom of Iraq's
WMD-programs since Feb 1991. They have had a lot of
success !! The Iraqis have resorted to a lot of
non-cooperation and deceit instead of coming clean as
per UN resolutions. Before Hans Blix there was Rold
Ekeus and Richard Butler who have been on the trail of
what you refer as "FICTION". The Iraqis have a lot to
account for as far as WMDs are concerned. If you have
the time, please catch-up with the FACTS ! These are
mostly United Nations weblinks so don't dismiss them as
an extension of the current US administration or
neo-conservative philosophy. Starting with UN
resolution 660 in August 1990 there have been over a
dozen UN resolutions that have addressed Iraq. Even
after sanctions were in place in 1990, the ex-regime
maintained and furthered their WMD programs under the
cover of permitted dual-use activities.

Achievements of UNSCOM
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/Achievements/achievements.html
www.un.org/Depts/unscom

Iraqi attempts at not complying with UN resolutions
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/unscmdoc.htm

Last UNMOVIC report (but do run thru the others too)
www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/documents/2003-232.pdf

More UN documents under the Document section @
www.unmovic.org

Since you like reading experts and thinking heads:
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/pdf/Iraq/factsheet/Iraq-ChemBioFactSheet.pdf

www.ceip.org/files/publications/iraq/black.htm

The UN interview with Saddam Hussein's son-in-law !!

www.fair.org/press-releases/kamel.pdf

This (I think) is a news site:
www.megastories.com/iraq/inspect/unscom.htm

But then again there is perception that .com sites
could be mere propaganda.......so no more of those !

The US may not find any WMDs and people like you will
be quick to jump to that and say there was no need to
go to war. There is another perception - because there
was a war, SH's constant pursuit of WMDs have ended. He
will no longer threaten his people or the neighbourhood
or in a greater context use the weapons to terrorize
the world to pay unreasonable sums of money for oil -
which was one of his initial goals !! It's the current
skeptic-thinking that the Iraqis adeptly played to, to
try and fool not just the UN. If the Iraqis did destroy
evidence before the war and there are no WMDs to be
found it does not end the WMD story - there is still
accountability to be addressed as to where the toxins
eventually ended.

I also subscribe to the oil-theory !! US interests are
paramount !! A 1-dollar discount for every barrel of
oil bought from Saudi Arabia for over 20 years (thanks
to Ronald Reagan) has reportedly saved the US billions
of dollars. And who knows what else.

And if you think the French, Russians and Germans
(among others) were anti-war because they wanted to
save the world from another war - Wake up !! Just like
you claim the US administration "brain-washed"
Americans to support the war, the same can be said for
those governments who have only tried to protect their
interests but don't have the gall to stand-up to the
US. The ex-regime in Iraq successful exploited this
division for many years to extend it's survival.
Post by Chimbelcho
Real historians are people who have acquired specific
in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you
should not learn history from politicians like George
Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts.
+++ You are too quick to draw conclusions about others
!! But you're right Rush Limbaugh does not teach
history !! I'm sure most people here never tune(d) into
him. I'll agree with your perception that some in
Washington have an agenda. That is no secret !!
Post by Chimbelcho
You are free to believe your own facts more than
mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction
more than my facts.

+++ Hopefully you will stop being in denial about what
you state to be FICTION is indeed FACTS as far as WMDs
are concerned.
Post by Chimbelcho
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless
they are proven to be anything other than fiction.
Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

+++ There is no need to play the underdog !! We're all
debating this on equal terms !! If you prefer to ignore
the FACT that the ex-regime pursued a WMD-program and
had no credibility in the eyes of many people around
the world, so be it !!

Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
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Chimbelcho
2003-04-20 15:01:07 UTC
Permalink
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least until they come up with a some kind of evidence.

Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.

Cheers,

Santosh
**********************************************************************************

SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction in more than a month of war and occupation

20 April 2003


So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.

But, Mr Blair, where are they? A month has passed since American and British troops entered Iraq, more than a week since the fall of Baghdad. But thus far not even a sniff. Not a drum of VX or mustard gas, not a phial of botulin or anthrax, not a shred of evidence that Iraq was assembling a nuclear weapons programme.

But that wasn't what they told us. Remember Colin Powell at the Security Council two months ago (though today it seems another age on another planet): the charts, the grainy intelligence satellite pictures, the crackly tapes of the intercepted phone conversations among Iraqi officials? How plausible it all sounded, especially when propounded by the most plausible figure in the Bush ad- ministration.

And what about those other claims, wheeled out on various occasions by Messrs Bush, Blair, Cheney and Rumsfeld? The Iraqi drones that were supposed to be able to attack the US east coast, the imports of aluminium tubes allegedly intended for centrifuges to enrich uranium, the unaccounted-for lethal nerve and germ agents, in quantities specified down to the last gallon or pound, as if exact numbers alone constituted proof. All, it seems, egregious products of the imagination of the intelligence services ? one commodity whose existence need never be doubted.

Maybe the Saddam regime was diabolically cunning in the concealment of these weap-ons, but the shambolic manner of its passing suggests otherwise. Maybe, as those "US officials" continue to suggest from behind their comfortable screen of anonymity, the weapons have been shipped to Syria for "safekeeping". But that theory too is dismissed by independent experts.

Indeed, it collapses at the first serious examination. Why should Saddam part with his most effective means of defence, when the survival of his regime and himself was on the line? Nor will that hoary and disingenuous line advanced by our political masters wash any longer ? oh yes, we know a lot more, but if we told you, we would be showing our hand to Saddam and endangering precious intelligence sources.

Just believe us, old boy, the Government told us, and you'll see we were right all along. And the British, being on the whole a reasonable and trusting people, mostly accepted the word of their rulers.

Well, Saddam is now gone. And with him has disappeared any conceivable risk to those intelligence sources (assuming they ever existed). So just what was this information on the basis of which Washington and its faithful ally launched an unprovoked invasion of a ramshackle third world country? A country with a very nasty regime to be sure, but not a great deal nastier than some other potential candidates for "liberation" in the Middle East and elsewhere.

If only for the credibility and reputation of our country, this newspaper hopes that enough weapons of mass destruction will be discovered to justify a war that has grievously weakened the UN, strained the Atlantic alliance and split the European Union.

But they'd better be found pretty soon. Having rushed into war to suit its own military and domestic electoral timetable, the Bush administration now has the nerve to claim that a year may be required to establish the whereabouts of the WMD ? and that it may never do so unless led to them by co-operative Iraqis. But no longer can London and Washington rely simply on the impossibility for the former Iraqi regime to prove a negative, that the weapons do not exist. It is up to the "coalition" of two to provide proof positive that they do.

This pointless war cannot be un-made. But we urgently need to know that the invasion was not illegal as well. With Britain and the US in full control of Iraq, a month should suffice. If no "smoking gun" has turned up by then, a full parliamentary inquiry is essential ? into the competence and accountability of the intelligence services, and into how our Government used them to sell a mistaken and reckless policy.
Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
2003-04-20 19:39:13 UTC
Permalink
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then it would
be prudent to keep one's powder dry!

Cheers Gabe menezes
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and means of delivery have
been found, and there really was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq.
I wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at least now or at least
until they come up with a some kind of evidence.
Here is an article from the today's Independent on this issue.
Cheers,
Santosh
****************************************************************************
******
SO WHERE ARE THEY, MR BLAIR?
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating
document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass
destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
20 April 2003
So where are they? In case we forget, distracted by the thought of
thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, looted museums and gathering political
chaos, the proclaimed purpose of this war, vainly pursued by Britain and the
US through the United Nations, was to disarm Saddam Hussein and to destroy
weapons of mass destruction deemed a menace to the entire world.
Chimbelcho
2003-04-21 06:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lily &amp; Gabe Menezes
The newspaper is jumping the gun and so are a lot of us. Let us have
patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, big country and it
is just, just possible that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So
until then it would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
How ironic! The weapons inspectors were saying the same thing. They just needed a few more months to find the weapons. But that would not be prudent. It was just, just possible that they would not find any, and then there would be no reason to go to war.

Cheers,

Santosh
Tim de Mello
2003-04-21 13:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by noel
From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <lilygabe at blueyonder.co.uk>
Let us have patience and await further developments. Iraq is a big, >big
country and it is just, just possible
that there will be some incriminating evidence found. So until then >it
would be prudent to keep one's powder dry!
Cheers Gabe menezes
======

Isn't this exactly what the world was telling the US administration before
they invaded Iraq?


Tim de Mello
Mississauga
Ontario
CANADA






_________________________________________________________________
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Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-22 14:36:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:01:07 -0400, Santosh
In a message dated 4/19/2003 4:56:04 PM Eastern
They did achieve some success, but did their
success make SH lose his appetite for the constant
pursuit of WMDs and the means to deliver them?
I cannot believe people keep posing as if WMDs and
means of delivery have been found, and there really
was a threat to the US and the world from Iraq. I
wish they would quit insulting our intelligence at
least now or at least until they come up with a
some kind of evidence.
+++ To address the second part of the above para
first......All along I thought we were debating the
issue about the Iraq War. Santosh, it appears, thought
it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack
thereof. I have consistently presented facts. No
fiction !! And so have many others. If you are
interested in debating the facts - lets continue the
debate instead of making eloquent, elitist,
intellectual statements that purport to make the rest
of us think that what you are say is necessarily *the*
truth to every discussion on this forum.

Another of your recent comments......

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 18:24:17 -0400, Santosh
If you are interested in historical arguments, I
suggest you read what real historians and political
scientists have written.
+++ What do you mean by "real historians". Are you
implying that you read "real historians" and the rest
of us have educated ourselves with unreal history ?

Why is there a perception that every fact presented by
anybody else is unreal ??

Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
- Either you are putting my sentences out of context
with the rest of the paragraph or you are obviously
unaware that UN inspectors have discovered and
destroyed WMDs of every kind and the means to deliver
them in the 12 years of the inspection regime from
UNSCOM to UNMOVIC ?? Is it not Hans Blix as recently as
a few weeks before the war and on more than one
occassion, who stated, that the Government of Iraq has
still to account for several thousand tonnes of WMDS ??
Haven't there been scientists who previously worked for
the ex-regime and subsequently defected, declare that
the regime maintained a constant pursuit of WMDs ??

Yes, the US has not found any WMDs to date and even if
they have found them, they haven't disclosed them yet.
Saddam Hussein didn't exactly stock the WMDs at a
neihbourhood 7-11 store !! Why are we in a hurry to
know every element of the search for WMDs right away ?
The previous regime spent over 2 decades creating the
program. They have been experts at deceit. More than 12
years of UN inspections could not account for
everything. And here we are jumping up-and-down about
"Lies about WMDs". Hopefully the US is rounding-up the
many scientists involved in the various programs and
questioning them and hopefully alot of the evidence has
not been lost by the recent looting.

Even after being told to provide the UN with a complete
report of all WMD programs as per resolution 1441 in
late-2002, the ex-regime continued to mislead the UN.
They kept finding documents right until the last week
before the war. They never came clean in over 12 years
of inspections - it's foolhardy and naive, at best, to
expect they ever would !!


On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:15:22 -0400, Santosh
Now, at the risk of someone asking me if I were a
mortician, I would like to ask the partisan how many
deaths justify the expression of relief from his/her
point of view?
+++ In a similar vein, what would you constitute the
existence of a program(s) of WMDs in Iraq - 1 VX tipped
missile ? 10 labs ? 20 vials of bio-agents ? 30
petri-dishes ? 50 scientists ? 100 front companies
doing the procurement.....What ?? What is it that would
satisfy you ?? Would you have preferred for these
weapons to have been used in the recent war, just so
that you could have your proof ??

To expect a man responsible for over a million deaths
to be sincere is definitely imprudent !!


On Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:18:08 -0500, Tariq Siddiqui
If you were to pick up a US newspaper today or flip
through any of the US cable networks, the WMD issue
is being downplayed. This seems to bother us and the
rest of the world more, than the average American.
+++ If the media gives us a lot of information we
accuse the media of choreography, reality-TV, etc. If
they don't give us the information we desire - it's
downplaying !! There have been people talking about
WMDs on television and writing about it regularly in
all mainstream media for the last several weeks - even
yesterday !! How do we establish the threshold of
downplaying ??
Therefore, victory is more important in the mindset
here, than the means of such a victory.
+++ There is no victory until we know the fate of the
Ace-of-Spades !!

Best wishes - Bosco

__________________________________________________________
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Mervyn Lobo
2003-04-23 02:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Bosco D'Mello <bospam at canada.com> wrote: >
Post by Bosco D'Mello
There is no victory until we know the fate of
the Ace-of-Spades !!
Bosco,
The Americans line is that they do not know what
happened to Saddam (thats why they stopped bombing.)

Now if they succeed in installing the'American way of
life' in Iraq, Saddam sightings are going to become
more popular than Elvis sightings :-)

Mervyn


______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Chimbelcho
2003-04-23 04:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Santosh, it appears, thought it was an IQ Test !! I don't believe I have attempted
at anytime to insult anybody's intelligence or lack thereof. I have consistently >presented facts.
Hi Bosco:

Sorry to upset you. That was not my intention.

Repeating the canard that the Iraq war was necessitated by WMDs, absent any real evidence for them in Iraq, is indeed insulting to my limited intelligence. You have to know how low my intelligence is to realize that it doesn't take much to insult it.
No fiction!! And so have many others. If you are interested in debating the facts - >lets continue the debate.
Right now, WMDs appear to be pure fiction. Come back after you have some facts on them.
If you are interested in debating the facts - lets continue the debate instead of >making eloquent, elitist, intellectual statements that purport to make the rest of us >think that what you are say is necessarily *the* truth to every discussion on this >forum.
You give me more credit than I deserve. I am just an ordinary guy trying to chip in his two cents. You don't have to feel intimidated by me. But thanks for the compliment. Nobody has called my statements eloquent, elitist and intellectual before. Usually, it is just the opposite.
What do you mean by "real historians". Are you implying that you read "real >historians" and the rest of us have educated ourselves with unreal history?
Real historians are people who have acquired specific in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you should not learn history from politicians like George Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts. I don't know from where you have acquired your knowledge of history. But I always keep an open mind about people. And I think there are many among us who have learned their history from the right sources. My knowledge of history is poor. But what little I know I have not learned from Rush Limbaugh.
Why is there a perception that every fact presented by anybody else is unreal??
I don't know what you mean by that. However, if you are referring to my earlier comments, I ask you again not to feel compelled to believe what I say. You are free to believe your own facts more than mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction more than my facts.
Getting back to the first point about the WMDs in Iraq
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless they are proven to be anything other than fiction. Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

Cheers,

Santosh
Bosco D'Mello
2003-04-23 16:29:43 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:26:32 -0400, Santosh
<Chimbelcho at aol.com> wrote:

Santosh:

No, my fellow-Goenkar, you did not upset me ! And being
the affable President of Chimbel - No, you are not the
least intimidating but you are misinformed of the facts
and in denial of reality and in doing so are attempting
to influence everybody else's opinion on this
forum.......getting back to the subject......

Since you have an affinity to educate yourself and us
too (thank you) from various websites. Here below find
a few to digest - these are FACTS not speculation by
experts !

The UN has been trying to get to the bottom of Iraq's
WMD-programs since Feb 1991. They have had a lot of
success !! The Iraqis have resorted to a lot of
non-cooperation and deceit instead of coming clean as
per UN resolutions. Before Hans Blix there was Rold
Ekeus and Richard Butler who have been on the trail of
what you refer as "FICTION". The Iraqis have a lot to
account for as far as WMDs are concerned. If you have
the time, please catch-up with the FACTS ! These are
mostly United Nations weblinks so don't dismiss them as
an extension of the current US administration or
neo-conservative philosophy. Starting with UN
resolution 660 in August 1990 there have been over a
dozen UN resolutions that have addressed Iraq. Even
after sanctions were in place in 1990, the ex-regime
maintained and furthered their WMD programs under the
cover of permitted dual-use activities.

Achievements of UNSCOM
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/Achievements/achievements.html
www.un.org/Depts/unscom

Iraqi attempts at not complying with UN resolutions
www.un.org/Depts/unscom/unscmdoc.htm

Last UNMOVIC report (but do run thru the others too)
www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/documents/2003-232.pdf

More UN documents under the Document section @
www.unmovic.org

Since you like reading experts and thinking heads:
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/pdf/Iraq/factsheet/Iraq-ChemBioFactSheet.pdf

www.ceip.org/files/publications/iraq/black.htm

The UN interview with Saddam Hussein's son-in-law !!

www.fair.org/press-releases/kamel.pdf

This (I think) is a news site:
www.megastories.com/iraq/inspect/unscom.htm

But then again there is perception that .com sites
could be mere propaganda.......so no more of those !

The US may not find any WMDs and people like you will
be quick to jump to that and say there was no need to
go to war. There is another perception - because there
was a war, SH's constant pursuit of WMDs have ended. He
will no longer threaten his people or the neighbourhood
or in a greater context use the weapons to terrorize
the world to pay unreasonable sums of money for oil -
which was one of his initial goals !! It's the current
skeptic-thinking that the Iraqis adeptly played to, to
try and fool not just the UN. If the Iraqis did destroy
evidence before the war and there are no WMDs to be
found it does not end the WMD story - there is still
accountability to be addressed as to where the toxins
eventually ended.

I also subscribe to the oil-theory !! US interests are
paramount !! A 1-dollar discount for every barrel of
oil bought from Saudi Arabia for over 20 years (thanks
to Ronald Reagan) has reportedly saved the US billions
of dollars. And who knows what else.

And if you think the French, Russians and Germans
(among others) were anti-war because they wanted to
save the world from another war - Wake up !! Just like
you claim the US administration "brain-washed"
Americans to support the war, the same can be said for
those governments who have only tried to protect their
interests but don't have the gall to stand-up to the
US. The ex-regime in Iraq successful exploited this
division for many years to extend it's survival.
Post by Chimbelcho
Real historians are people who have acquired specific
in-depth knowledge of history. I am implying that you
should not learn history from politicians like George
Bush, TV pundits and talk radio hosts.
+++ You are too quick to draw conclusions about others
!! But you're right Rush Limbaugh does not teach
history !! I'm sure most people here never tune(d) into
him. I'll agree with your perception that some in
Washington have an agenda. That is no secret !!
Post by Chimbelcho
You are free to believe your own facts more than
mine. In fact, you are free to believe your fiction
more than my facts.

+++ Hopefully you will stop being in denial about what
you state to be FICTION is indeed FACTS as far as WMDs
are concerned.
Post by Chimbelcho
I don't want to get back to WMDs until and unless
they are proven to be anything other than fiction.
Please don't insult my low and limited intelligence.

+++ There is no need to play the underdog !! We're all
debating this on equal terms !! If you prefer to ignore
the FACT that the ex-regime pursued a WMD-program and
had no credibility in the eyes of many people around
the world, so be it !!

Iraq, even though a signatory to the NPT, continued to
develop a nuclear weapons program. Not that they were
the first to lie. I'm certain you will soon be telling
us that Iran too is going nuclear only for scientific
purposes and to generate electricity just like
Krazee-Kim-in-Korea !!

Best wishes - Bosco

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