Discussion:
Propagation of a falsehood (2)
(too old to reply)
Mario Goveia
2006-10-05 14:08:07 UTC
Permalink
If a "mistake" is perceived in ANY post, it should
be questioned, even criticized, in a constructive
manner and a clarification obtained. There is no
excuse to rush to judgement using selected excerpts
from a post, ignoring other comments in the same
post, followed by a vicious verbal attack on the
writer.
--- Mervyn Lobo wrote:
Verbal attacks?
The bottom line is that Gilbert's article was badly
written, in fact incomprehensible to me. The subject
however, was a serious one: cancer. I am glad that
people took the time to point out and correct all the
faults of that post.
Mario responds:
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have to
figure out for yourself.
Because the subject was a serious one, being addressed
by a Board Certified oncologist, it should have been
taken seriously and questioned in a civil manner.
Instead it was attacked for no apparent reason.
The conclusions in Gilbert's post were as follows.
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"."
Here is how Santosh responded to Gilbert's conclusions
shown above:
From,
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
SH: "The post appended below propagates dangerous
myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in
this public forum."
MG: No such dangerous myth was being propagated as we
can see from Gilbert's conclusions shown above.
Another example:
SH: "Here is a link to an article from the Mayo
Clinic, debunking the myth that tumor spreads when it
is exposed to air,..."
MG: No such myth had been suggested. Just the
opposite. Gilbert had explained that tumors do not
spread when exposed to air, which is what the Goan
grandmothers thought was causing any such spread, but
by a suppression of the immune system in his opinion.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-06 18:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may realize
that is exactly what I said.

I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
Mervyn3.0
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.



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Mario Goveia
2006-10-11 15:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may
realize that is exactly what I said.
I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario responds:
There is a thrash section in the Goanet archives. It
is the section that contains posts by those who are in
my spam list for obvious reasons.
I am alerted to the most egregious thrash by other
Goanetters especially when gross misrepresentations
are being made.
Here are some of the Gilbert's opinions that Mervyn
says were incomprehensible to him for reasons that are
incomprehensible to me. Yet, this admission of
incomprehensibility did not constrain Mervyn from
continuing to defend those who chose to misrepresent
Gilbert's opinions as spreading "dangerous myths":
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
Post by Mario Goveia
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"." [end of excerpts]
Somehow this got twisted into mean-spirited
allegations that Gilbert, a Board Certified
oncologist, had said that tumors grew by exposure to
air and allegations of a propagation of dangerous
myths and insinuations by a non-oncologist who doesn't
even practice medicine, that improper treatment of
cancer was being propagated.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-12 05:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Those who have read the surgical oncologist Jayant
Vaidya's post that I had posted, and those who have
tried hard to look for the description of the
so-called mouse experiment in the medical scientific
literature would realize why the following quote is a
gross misrepresentation of fact regarding cancer.

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote quoting
Post by Mario Goveia
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery
depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to
now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence
cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing
significant shift......"
Both Jayant and I have not been able to find a single
paper on a mouse study with the description provided
by Gilbert, and published a few years ago, as he
claimed, in the medical scientific literature. And as
Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments (described
differently) that have been done, have looked at what
are termed as anti-angiogenic effects that have
nothing to do with depressing the immune system.

As Mervyn pointed out in different words earlier, I am
happy that, with each rehash of misinformed comments
on this issue, I am getting an opportunity to expose
every single one of the many scientific flaws that I
had found in that original post by Gilbert in the
"Science as a Religion" thread.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-12 15:18:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet
archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario,
Seems that you are hiding from my questions AGAIN ;-)

Since you now had the last word on the extremely
baldly written cancer article, how about trying to
answer the questions above?

Mervyn3.0
PS. Just in case Mario is "unable" to see the
questions above, how about someone guiding him to what
he cannot see?




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Mario Goveia
2006-10-12 17:27:17 UTC
Permalink
And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic
effects that have nothing to do with depressing the
immune system.
Mario observes:
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-13 11:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
COMMENT: I believe the bottom line, is this - would one rather have
invasive surgery or do nowt, when afflicted with Cancer; is
chemotherapy and radio treatment the only options ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-13 11:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
COMMENT: I believe the bottom line, is this - would one rather have
invasive surgery or do nowt, when afflicted with Cancer; is
chemotherapy and radio treatment the only options ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-13 11:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
COMMENT: I believe the bottom line, is this - would one rather have
invasive surgery or do nowt, when afflicted with Cancer; is
chemotherapy and radio treatment the only options ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-13 11:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
COMMENT: I believe the bottom line, is this - would one rather have
invasive surgery or do nowt, when afflicted with Cancer; is
chemotherapy and radio treatment the only options ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-13 11:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
COMMENT: I believe the bottom line, is this - would one rather have
invasive surgery or do nowt, when afflicted with Cancer; is
chemotherapy and radio treatment the only options ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-13 11:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
COMMENT: I believe the bottom line, is this - would one rather have
invasive surgery or do nowt, when afflicted with Cancer; is
chemotherapy and radio treatment the only options ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-13 11:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
COMMENT: I believe the bottom line, is this - would one rather have
invasive surgery or do nowt, when afflicted with Cancer; is
chemotherapy and radio treatment the only options ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-13 04:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless
mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are
suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune
system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom
I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Gilbert Lawrence
2006-10-14 12:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gabe,

Your question below is an honest question that many cancer patients grapple with. I often start my consultation with my patients, "Even with all our knowledge and advances in medicine, there are basically only three approaches to get rid of cancer - surgery, radiation therapy and systemic (chemo) therapy."

In the past we used to use only one of these options (mono-therapy) in any given patient. Now we realize that each of these options have their strengths and their LIMITATIONS. Hence the current approach is to use a combination of these options. Thus one treatment compensates for the limitation of the other. And each treatment does not have to be too aggressive. Using this, team approach, we can get as good as or better results with LESS side-effects.

The "bottom line" is the patient does not know which is the best approach to their cancer and how to sequence the combination. This information can only be obtained by the patient getting a 'second opinion' from another specialist. As we say a 'Ford car dealer' (even if he is your brother-in-law) is not going to recommend a Toyota car. The customer has to check it out for themselves.

When the patient seeks a second opinion, that gives the "second" doctor the right and the duty to dialogue with the first doctor about the nuances of the patient's cancer and suggest a best approach for that individual's cancer. A good doctor never objects to a 'second' opinion. I say to my patients,"by all means do so. If the other doctor agrees with me, you will have even more trust and confidence in me instead of constantly second guessing me. If the other doctor suggest something different, that is an alternative for the patient to consider." By the same token nothing helps me better manage my informed patient, than one who is at peace and concentrates to help themselves. Second opinions are good for any major treatment, not only for cancer.

Kind Regards, GL

---------- Gabe Menezes

I believe the bottom line, is this - would one rather have invasive surgery or do not, when afflicted with Cancer; is chemotherapy and radio treatment the only options ?
Mario Goveia
2006-10-15 04:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.
Mario clarifies:
Here is what Dr. Helekar, a medical researcher who is
not qualified to treat any cancer patients had said
previously, quoting other people unfamiliar with the
discussions on Goanet:
"And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic effects
that have nothing to do with depressing the immune
system."
To me, a cancer survivor, this suggests that these
academics are propagating a dangerous myth when they
insinuate that surgery may have "nothing to do with
depressing" the immune system while attacking what an
experienced Goan oncologist had said and obfuscating
the entire discussion with some mumbo jumbo that had
nothing to do with Gilbert's original point that
cancer is not spread by exposure to air.
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers.
Sunith Velho
2006-10-15 23:06:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mario,

Can you please follow your own advice and stop boring us with repeated mails
on this topic(especially since there is no trash section on Goanet to divert
boring mails to!). By your logic you are even less qualified to comment on
this topic than Santosh. You are neither a medic and nor a researcher, being
a cancer survivor does not make you an authority on the scientific aspect of
this topic either.

Here in College, I have access to vast databases of scientific papers(some
of the largest in the world) and I could not find a single experiment in the
last few years that matched Gilbert's FICTITIOUS mouse experiment with its
nonsensical conclusions. It is more likely he read about the experiment in a
newspaper rather than a scientific journal.

In PLAIN English let me once again ask.

Can you or Gilbert please provide for the benefit of the scientists on this
forum the name and date of the journal where the mouse experiment (carried
out a few years ago) that Gilbert was referring to was published?

I hope you don't wriggle out of this simple question by quoting the same
experiment Dr. Jayant referred to which was carried out in the seventies and
not a "few years ago". I wouldn't be surprised if the first time either of
you heard about the scientific details of that experiment was through Dr
Jayant's post.

It was very easy to find the one Dr. Jayant mentioned because he is
obviously well versed in research methodologies and publishing papers. Hence
he provides references, unlike Gilbert who was completely unable to do so
when asked(for obvious reasons!).

Regards

Sunith Velho

Mario Goveia writes:
Here is what Dr. Helekar, a medical researcher who is
not qualified to treat any cancer patients had said....
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-16 01:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you
develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
I am with you, Mario.
No Goan is going to consult his grandmother in such a
case. Also, rest assured that neither will s/he
consult a doctor like Carma Cruise.
Post by Mario Goveia
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED
MEDICAL FIELDS, especially ones who did not have
the wisdom to realize what a practising oncologist >
had said IN SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical
Post by Mario Goveia
correlations could be mistaken for causes by Goan >
grandmothers.


I for one, am going to run away from any medical
professional who will start his description of a
malady by referring to a Goan grandmother :-)

It's that simple.

Mervyn3.0


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Edward Verdes
2006-10-16 11:17:52 UTC
Permalink
While we are on this topic just read this in todays times....Cheers Edward
Verdes

NRI scientists find colon cancer weapon
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2074544.cms
BANGALORE: A five-member team of India-born medical researchers in the
United States has discovered what may become a potent new weapon in the
fight against colon cancer.

The scientists from the University of Texas succeeded in stopping colon
cancer growth in mice by halting the activity of a single enzyme called
aldose reductase.

Blocking this enzyme shuts down the toxic network of biochemical signals
that promotes inflammation and colon cancer cell growth, the scientists
reported in the latest issue of journal Cancer Research.

They showed that blocking the production of aldose reductase halts the
growth of human colon cancer cells implanted in laboratory mice.

"By inhibiting aldose reductase we were able to completely stop the further
growth of colorectal cancer tumour cells," they said. Colon cancer is the
second leading cancer killer in the US.

The team included senior author Satish Srivastava and his colleagues,
Ravinder Tammali, Kota V Ramana, Sharad S Singhal and Sanjay Awasthi.

In their experiments on mice, the researchers implanted human colon cancer
cells beneath the skin of "nude mice" - a hairless and immune-deficient
variety commonly used in medical research.

Tumour progression stopped completely in the mice treated with genetic
material known as small interfering RNA (or "siRNA") that was engineered to
prevent cells from making the aldose reductase enzyme.

The treated mice seemed unharmed by the procedure. In contrast, the
untreated control animals experienced uncontrolled tumour growth, they
reported.

The researchers, however, point out that the gap between a brand new
procedure that works in nude mice and one that works in humans is
considerable.
Post by Sunith Velho
Here in College, I have access to vast databases of scientific papers(some
of the largest in the world) and I could not find a single experiment in
the
Post by Sunith Velho
last few years that matched Gilbert's FICTITIOUS mouse experiment with its
.nonsensical conclusions. It is more likely he read about the experiment in
a
Post by Sunith Velho
newspaper rather than a scientific journal.
In PLAIN English let me once again ask.
Can you or Gilbert please provide for the benefit of the scientists on this
forum the name and date of the journal where the mouse experiment (carried
out a few years ago) that Gilbert was referring to was published?
Sunith Velho
Mario Goveia
2006-10-16 16:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
In PLAIN English let me once again ask.
Can you or Gilbert please provide for the benefit of
the scientists on this forum the name and date of
the journal where the mouse experiment (carried
out a few years ago) that Gilbert was referring to
was published?
Mario responds:
Sunith,
Since when did you join the fraternity of medical
scientists? Besides, what gives you any more standing
in a cancer debate than a cancer survivor?
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
why don't you go back to the original post by Gilbert
and see if you can figure out his conclusion, as
opposed to the minutiae that you seem hung up on in
joining the attempt to discredit him? Instead of
looking for experimental mice, see if you can find
what DANGEROUS MYTH he had propagated, ABOUT HUMANS.
Also, see if you can find where he had concluded that
tumors are spread by exposure to air as claimed by
some of his critics.
Secondly, what part of my following conclusion did you
not understand:
"Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers."
As a cancer survivor I not only have a right but an
obligation to expose mean-spirited know-it-alls who
are not only unqualified to opine on cancer treatment
but are experts at catching the bull by the tail for
reasons unrelated to the comments in question. I know
from personal experience something I hope you will
never learn, that, for a cancer patient, even just
being an experienced oncologist is not good enough, if
the oncologist is not experienced in the particular
form of cancer that is at issue.
So, feel free to continue to look for the trees while
missing the woods they belong in.
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-17 11:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Sunith,
..........................
Post by Mario Goveia
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
RESPONSE: Why is it that the Administrators, continually allow put
downs and abusive language as above?

Goveia considers himself way above the rest of us, so why doesn't he
keep company of likewise posters on his favourite site 'Al Jazeera' ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-17 11:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Sunith,
..........................
Post by Mario Goveia
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
RESPONSE: Why is it that the Administrators, continually allow put
downs and abusive language as above?

Goveia considers himself way above the rest of us, so why doesn't he
keep company of likewise posters on his favourite site 'Al Jazeera' ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-17 11:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Sunith,
..........................
Post by Mario Goveia
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
RESPONSE: Why is it that the Administrators, continually allow put
downs and abusive language as above?

Goveia considers himself way above the rest of us, so why doesn't he
keep company of likewise posters on his favourite site 'Al Jazeera' ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-17 11:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Sunith,
..........................
Post by Mario Goveia
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
RESPONSE: Why is it that the Administrators, continually allow put
downs and abusive language as above?

Goveia considers himself way above the rest of us, so why doesn't he
keep company of likewise posters on his favourite site 'Al Jazeera' ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-17 11:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Sunith,
..........................
Post by Mario Goveia
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
RESPONSE: Why is it that the Administrators, continually allow put
downs and abusive language as above?

Goveia considers himself way above the rest of us, so why doesn't he
keep company of likewise posters on his favourite site 'Al Jazeera' ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Gabe Menezes
2006-10-17 11:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Sunith,
..........................
Post by Mario Goveia
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
RESPONSE: Why is it that the Administrators, continually allow put
downs and abusive language as above?

Goveia considers himself way above the rest of us, so why doesn't he
keep company of likewise posters on his favourite site 'Al Jazeera' ?
--
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England
Radhakrishnan Nair
2006-10-17 15:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his temper. He'll start
foul-mouthing you soon.

-- RKN
Sunith,
Since when did you join the fraternity of medical
scientists? Besides, what gives you any more standing
in a cancer debate than a cancer survivor?
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
why don't you go back to the original post by Gilbert
and see if you can figure out his conclusion, as
opposed to the minutiae that you seem hung up on in
joining the attempt to discredit him? <<
cornel
2006-10-18 16:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rhadhakrishnan
I haven't followed the cancer debate too closely on Goanet but will now
confine myself to a few points:

a) Is the "foul-mouthing" you warned young Sunith about, consequent to a
possible congenital aberration in a cynical practitioner of foul-mouthing?
I am just intrigued that you could anticipate such an unsavoury possibility
on Goanet and thankfully warn Sunith in good time.

b) What possible bearing can an absolutely snide personal question about
Sunith joining a "fraternity of medical scientists" have on his clear right
to engage in and not be blatantly undermined and intimidated in an open
Goanet discussion about cancer?

c) How utterly absurd for a cancer survivor to assume and assert that,
someone else cannot have more "standing on cancer" than the said survivor?
Can there really be greater stupidity on Goanet than this?

d) How utterly preposterous and disgraceful, on a community site for a
poster to scornfully say to a young Indian intending overseas student that:
"as a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a half-way decent
command of English but still hasn't grasped the difference between knowledge
and wisdom ...etc?"

Quite frankly, to me, such verbiage smacks of totally unacceptable American
imbibed arrogance which is then projected through acute patronising
condescension upon my fellow young Indian.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Radhakrishnan Nair" <rknair15 at gmail.com>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Misinformation regarding cancer
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his temper. He'll start
foul-mouthing you soon.
cornel
2006-10-18 16:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rhadhakrishnan
I haven't followed the cancer debate too closely on Goanet but will now
confine myself to a few points:

a) Is the "foul-mouthing" you warned young Sunith about, consequent to a
possible congenital aberration in a cynical practitioner of foul-mouthing?
I am just intrigued that you could anticipate such an unsavoury possibility
on Goanet and thankfully warn Sunith in good time.

b) What possible bearing can an absolutely snide personal question about
Sunith joining a "fraternity of medical scientists" have on his clear right
to engage in and not be blatantly undermined and intimidated in an open
Goanet discussion about cancer?

c) How utterly absurd for a cancer survivor to assume and assert that,
someone else cannot have more "standing on cancer" than the said survivor?
Can there really be greater stupidity on Goanet than this?

d) How utterly preposterous and disgraceful, on a community site for a
poster to scornfully say to a young Indian intending overseas student that:
"as a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a half-way decent
command of English but still hasn't grasped the difference between knowledge
and wisdom ...etc?"

Quite frankly, to me, such verbiage smacks of totally unacceptable American
imbibed arrogance which is then projected through acute patronising
condescension upon my fellow young Indian.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Radhakrishnan Nair" <rknair15 at gmail.com>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Misinformation regarding cancer
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his temper. He'll start
foul-mouthing you soon.
cornel
2006-10-18 16:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rhadhakrishnan
I haven't followed the cancer debate too closely on Goanet but will now
confine myself to a few points:

a) Is the "foul-mouthing" you warned young Sunith about, consequent to a
possible congenital aberration in a cynical practitioner of foul-mouthing?
I am just intrigued that you could anticipate such an unsavoury possibility
on Goanet and thankfully warn Sunith in good time.

b) What possible bearing can an absolutely snide personal question about
Sunith joining a "fraternity of medical scientists" have on his clear right
to engage in and not be blatantly undermined and intimidated in an open
Goanet discussion about cancer?

c) How utterly absurd for a cancer survivor to assume and assert that,
someone else cannot have more "standing on cancer" than the said survivor?
Can there really be greater stupidity on Goanet than this?

d) How utterly preposterous and disgraceful, on a community site for a
poster to scornfully say to a young Indian intending overseas student that:
"as a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a half-way decent
command of English but still hasn't grasped the difference between knowledge
and wisdom ...etc?"

Quite frankly, to me, such verbiage smacks of totally unacceptable American
imbibed arrogance which is then projected through acute patronising
condescension upon my fellow young Indian.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Radhakrishnan Nair" <rknair15 at gmail.com>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Misinformation regarding cancer
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his temper. He'll start
foul-mouthing you soon.
cornel
2006-10-18 16:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rhadhakrishnan
I haven't followed the cancer debate too closely on Goanet but will now
confine myself to a few points:

a) Is the "foul-mouthing" you warned young Sunith about, consequent to a
possible congenital aberration in a cynical practitioner of foul-mouthing?
I am just intrigued that you could anticipate such an unsavoury possibility
on Goanet and thankfully warn Sunith in good time.

b) What possible bearing can an absolutely snide personal question about
Sunith joining a "fraternity of medical scientists" have on his clear right
to engage in and not be blatantly undermined and intimidated in an open
Goanet discussion about cancer?

c) How utterly absurd for a cancer survivor to assume and assert that,
someone else cannot have more "standing on cancer" than the said survivor?
Can there really be greater stupidity on Goanet than this?

d) How utterly preposterous and disgraceful, on a community site for a
poster to scornfully say to a young Indian intending overseas student that:
"as a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a half-way decent
command of English but still hasn't grasped the difference between knowledge
and wisdom ...etc?"

Quite frankly, to me, such verbiage smacks of totally unacceptable American
imbibed arrogance which is then projected through acute patronising
condescension upon my fellow young Indian.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Radhakrishnan Nair" <rknair15 at gmail.com>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Misinformation regarding cancer
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his temper. He'll start
foul-mouthing you soon.
cornel
2006-10-18 16:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rhadhakrishnan
I haven't followed the cancer debate too closely on Goanet but will now
confine myself to a few points:

a) Is the "foul-mouthing" you warned young Sunith about, consequent to a
possible congenital aberration in a cynical practitioner of foul-mouthing?
I am just intrigued that you could anticipate such an unsavoury possibility
on Goanet and thankfully warn Sunith in good time.

b) What possible bearing can an absolutely snide personal question about
Sunith joining a "fraternity of medical scientists" have on his clear right
to engage in and not be blatantly undermined and intimidated in an open
Goanet discussion about cancer?

c) How utterly absurd for a cancer survivor to assume and assert that,
someone else cannot have more "standing on cancer" than the said survivor?
Can there really be greater stupidity on Goanet than this?

d) How utterly preposterous and disgraceful, on a community site for a
poster to scornfully say to a young Indian intending overseas student that:
"as a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a half-way decent
command of English but still hasn't grasped the difference between knowledge
and wisdom ...etc?"

Quite frankly, to me, such verbiage smacks of totally unacceptable American
imbibed arrogance which is then projected through acute patronising
condescension upon my fellow young Indian.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Radhakrishnan Nair" <rknair15 at gmail.com>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Misinformation regarding cancer
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his temper. He'll start
foul-mouthing you soon.
cornel
2006-10-18 16:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rhadhakrishnan
I haven't followed the cancer debate too closely on Goanet but will now
confine myself to a few points:

a) Is the "foul-mouthing" you warned young Sunith about, consequent to a
possible congenital aberration in a cynical practitioner of foul-mouthing?
I am just intrigued that you could anticipate such an unsavoury possibility
on Goanet and thankfully warn Sunith in good time.

b) What possible bearing can an absolutely snide personal question about
Sunith joining a "fraternity of medical scientists" have on his clear right
to engage in and not be blatantly undermined and intimidated in an open
Goanet discussion about cancer?

c) How utterly absurd for a cancer survivor to assume and assert that,
someone else cannot have more "standing on cancer" than the said survivor?
Can there really be greater stupidity on Goanet than this?

d) How utterly preposterous and disgraceful, on a community site for a
poster to scornfully say to a young Indian intending overseas student that:
"as a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a half-way decent
command of English but still hasn't grasped the difference between knowledge
and wisdom ...etc?"

Quite frankly, to me, such verbiage smacks of totally unacceptable American
imbibed arrogance which is then projected through acute patronising
condescension upon my fellow young Indian.
Cornel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Radhakrishnan Nair" <rknair15 at gmail.com>
To: <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Misinformation regarding cancer
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his temper. He'll start
foul-mouthing you soon.
Mario Goveia
2006-10-18 14:35:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED
MEDICAL FIELDS, especially ones who did not have
the wisdom to realize what a practising oncologist
had said IN SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical
correlations could be mistaken for causes by Goan
grandmothers.
I for one, am going to run away from any medical
professional who will start his description of a
malady by referring to a Goan grandmother :-)
Mario observes:
Written by someone who has obviously not understood a
word in this entire discussion:-))
Based on his posts in this thread, Mervyn will
apparently run away from experienced medical
practitioners and rely on research academics and
communications engineers who share his political
beliefs:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-18 14:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his
temper. He'll start foul-mouthing you soon.
Mario observes:
RKN,
Thanks for providing more proof that the left-wing
that you belong to has reached a point of intellectual
exhaustion if not total bankruptcy:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-05 14:08:07 UTC
Permalink
If a "mistake" is perceived in ANY post, it should
be questioned, even criticized, in a constructive
manner and a clarification obtained. There is no
excuse to rush to judgement using selected excerpts
from a post, ignoring other comments in the same
post, followed by a vicious verbal attack on the
writer.
--- Mervyn Lobo wrote:
Verbal attacks?
The bottom line is that Gilbert's article was badly
written, in fact incomprehensible to me. The subject
however, was a serious one: cancer. I am glad that
people took the time to point out and correct all the
faults of that post.
Mario responds:
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have to
figure out for yourself.
Because the subject was a serious one, being addressed
by a Board Certified oncologist, it should have been
taken seriously and questioned in a civil manner.
Instead it was attacked for no apparent reason.
The conclusions in Gilbert's post were as follows.
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"."
Here is how Santosh responded to Gilbert's conclusions
shown above:
From,
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
SH: "The post appended below propagates dangerous
myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in
this public forum."
MG: No such dangerous myth was being propagated as we
can see from Gilbert's conclusions shown above.
Another example:
SH: "Here is a link to an article from the Mayo
Clinic, debunking the myth that tumor spreads when it
is exposed to air,..."
MG: No such myth had been suggested. Just the
opposite. Gilbert had explained that tumors do not
spread when exposed to air, which is what the Goan
grandmothers thought was causing any such spread, but
by a suppression of the immune system in his opinion.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-06 18:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may realize
that is exactly what I said.

I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
Mervyn3.0
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.



__________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2006-10-11 15:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may
realize that is exactly what I said.
I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario responds:
There is a thrash section in the Goanet archives. It
is the section that contains posts by those who are in
my spam list for obvious reasons.
I am alerted to the most egregious thrash by other
Goanetters especially when gross misrepresentations
are being made.
Here are some of the Gilbert's opinions that Mervyn
says were incomprehensible to him for reasons that are
incomprehensible to me. Yet, this admission of
incomprehensibility did not constrain Mervyn from
continuing to defend those who chose to misrepresent
Gilbert's opinions as spreading "dangerous myths":
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
Post by Mario Goveia
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"." [end of excerpts]
Somehow this got twisted into mean-spirited
allegations that Gilbert, a Board Certified
oncologist, had said that tumors grew by exposure to
air and allegations of a propagation of dangerous
myths and insinuations by a non-oncologist who doesn't
even practice medicine, that improper treatment of
cancer was being propagated.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-12 05:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Those who have read the surgical oncologist Jayant
Vaidya's post that I had posted, and those who have
tried hard to look for the description of the
so-called mouse experiment in the medical scientific
literature would realize why the following quote is a
gross misrepresentation of fact regarding cancer.

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote quoting
Post by Mario Goveia
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery
depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to
now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence
cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing
significant shift......"
Both Jayant and I have not been able to find a single
paper on a mouse study with the description provided
by Gilbert, and published a few years ago, as he
claimed, in the medical scientific literature. And as
Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments (described
differently) that have been done, have looked at what
are termed as anti-angiogenic effects that have
nothing to do with depressing the immune system.

As Mervyn pointed out in different words earlier, I am
happy that, with each rehash of misinformed comments
on this issue, I am getting an opportunity to expose
every single one of the many scientific flaws that I
had found in that original post by Gilbert in the
"Science as a Religion" thread.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-12 15:18:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet
archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario,
Seems that you are hiding from my questions AGAIN ;-)

Since you now had the last word on the extremely
baldly written cancer article, how about trying to
answer the questions above?

Mervyn3.0
PS. Just in case Mario is "unable" to see the
questions above, how about someone guiding him to what
he cannot see?




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Mario Goveia
2006-10-12 17:27:17 UTC
Permalink
And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic
effects that have nothing to do with depressing the
immune system.
Mario observes:
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-13 04:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless
mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are
suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune
system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom
I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-15 04:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.
Mario clarifies:
Here is what Dr. Helekar, a medical researcher who is
not qualified to treat any cancer patients had said
previously, quoting other people unfamiliar with the
discussions on Goanet:
"And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic effects
that have nothing to do with depressing the immune
system."
To me, a cancer survivor, this suggests that these
academics are propagating a dangerous myth when they
insinuate that surgery may have "nothing to do with
depressing" the immune system while attacking what an
experienced Goan oncologist had said and obfuscating
the entire discussion with some mumbo jumbo that had
nothing to do with Gilbert's original point that
cancer is not spread by exposure to air.
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-16 01:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you
develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
I am with you, Mario.
No Goan is going to consult his grandmother in such a
case. Also, rest assured that neither will s/he
consult a doctor like Carma Cruise.
Post by Mario Goveia
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED
MEDICAL FIELDS, especially ones who did not have
the wisdom to realize what a practising oncologist >
had said IN SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical
Post by Mario Goveia
correlations could be mistaken for causes by Goan >
grandmothers.


I for one, am going to run away from any medical
professional who will start his description of a
malady by referring to a Goan grandmother :-)

It's that simple.

Mervyn3.0


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Mario Goveia
2006-10-16 16:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
In PLAIN English let me once again ask.
Can you or Gilbert please provide for the benefit of
the scientists on this forum the name and date of
the journal where the mouse experiment (carried
out a few years ago) that Gilbert was referring to
was published?
Mario responds:
Sunith,
Since when did you join the fraternity of medical
scientists? Besides, what gives you any more standing
in a cancer debate than a cancer survivor?
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
why don't you go back to the original post by Gilbert
and see if you can figure out his conclusion, as
opposed to the minutiae that you seem hung up on in
joining the attempt to discredit him? Instead of
looking for experimental mice, see if you can find
what DANGEROUS MYTH he had propagated, ABOUT HUMANS.
Also, see if you can find where he had concluded that
tumors are spread by exposure to air as claimed by
some of his critics.
Secondly, what part of my following conclusion did you
not understand:
"Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers."
As a cancer survivor I not only have a right but an
obligation to expose mean-spirited know-it-alls who
are not only unqualified to opine on cancer treatment
but are experts at catching the bull by the tail for
reasons unrelated to the comments in question. I know
from personal experience something I hope you will
never learn, that, for a cancer patient, even just
being an experienced oncologist is not good enough, if
the oncologist is not experienced in the particular
form of cancer that is at issue.
So, feel free to continue to look for the trees while
missing the woods they belong in.
Mario Goveia
2006-10-18 14:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his
temper. He'll start foul-mouthing you soon.
Mario observes:
RKN,
Thanks for providing more proof that the left-wing
that you belong to has reached a point of intellectual
exhaustion if not total bankruptcy:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-05 14:08:07 UTC
Permalink
If a "mistake" is perceived in ANY post, it should
be questioned, even criticized, in a constructive
manner and a clarification obtained. There is no
excuse to rush to judgement using selected excerpts
from a post, ignoring other comments in the same
post, followed by a vicious verbal attack on the
writer.
--- Mervyn Lobo wrote:
Verbal attacks?
The bottom line is that Gilbert's article was badly
written, in fact incomprehensible to me. The subject
however, was a serious one: cancer. I am glad that
people took the time to point out and correct all the
faults of that post.
Mario responds:
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have to
figure out for yourself.
Because the subject was a serious one, being addressed
by a Board Certified oncologist, it should have been
taken seriously and questioned in a civil manner.
Instead it was attacked for no apparent reason.
The conclusions in Gilbert's post were as follows.
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"."
Here is how Santosh responded to Gilbert's conclusions
shown above:
From,
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
SH: "The post appended below propagates dangerous
myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in
this public forum."
MG: No such dangerous myth was being propagated as we
can see from Gilbert's conclusions shown above.
Another example:
SH: "Here is a link to an article from the Mayo
Clinic, debunking the myth that tumor spreads when it
is exposed to air,..."
MG: No such myth had been suggested. Just the
opposite. Gilbert had explained that tumors do not
spread when exposed to air, which is what the Goan
grandmothers thought was causing any such spread, but
by a suppression of the immune system in his opinion.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-06 18:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may realize
that is exactly what I said.

I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
Mervyn3.0
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.



__________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2006-10-11 15:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may
realize that is exactly what I said.
I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario responds:
There is a thrash section in the Goanet archives. It
is the section that contains posts by those who are in
my spam list for obvious reasons.
I am alerted to the most egregious thrash by other
Goanetters especially when gross misrepresentations
are being made.
Here are some of the Gilbert's opinions that Mervyn
says were incomprehensible to him for reasons that are
incomprehensible to me. Yet, this admission of
incomprehensibility did not constrain Mervyn from
continuing to defend those who chose to misrepresent
Gilbert's opinions as spreading "dangerous myths":
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
Post by Mario Goveia
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"." [end of excerpts]
Somehow this got twisted into mean-spirited
allegations that Gilbert, a Board Certified
oncologist, had said that tumors grew by exposure to
air and allegations of a propagation of dangerous
myths and insinuations by a non-oncologist who doesn't
even practice medicine, that improper treatment of
cancer was being propagated.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-12 05:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Those who have read the surgical oncologist Jayant
Vaidya's post that I had posted, and those who have
tried hard to look for the description of the
so-called mouse experiment in the medical scientific
literature would realize why the following quote is a
gross misrepresentation of fact regarding cancer.

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote quoting
Post by Mario Goveia
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery
depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to
now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence
cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing
significant shift......"
Both Jayant and I have not been able to find a single
paper on a mouse study with the description provided
by Gilbert, and published a few years ago, as he
claimed, in the medical scientific literature. And as
Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments (described
differently) that have been done, have looked at what
are termed as anti-angiogenic effects that have
nothing to do with depressing the immune system.

As Mervyn pointed out in different words earlier, I am
happy that, with each rehash of misinformed comments
on this issue, I am getting an opportunity to expose
every single one of the many scientific flaws that I
had found in that original post by Gilbert in the
"Science as a Religion" thread.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-12 15:18:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet
archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario,
Seems that you are hiding from my questions AGAIN ;-)

Since you now had the last word on the extremely
baldly written cancer article, how about trying to
answer the questions above?

Mervyn3.0
PS. Just in case Mario is "unable" to see the
questions above, how about someone guiding him to what
he cannot see?




__________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2006-10-12 17:27:17 UTC
Permalink
And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic
effects that have nothing to do with depressing the
immune system.
Mario observes:
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-13 04:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless
mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are
suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune
system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom
I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-15 04:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.
Mario clarifies:
Here is what Dr. Helekar, a medical researcher who is
not qualified to treat any cancer patients had said
previously, quoting other people unfamiliar with the
discussions on Goanet:
"And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic effects
that have nothing to do with depressing the immune
system."
To me, a cancer survivor, this suggests that these
academics are propagating a dangerous myth when they
insinuate that surgery may have "nothing to do with
depressing" the immune system while attacking what an
experienced Goan oncologist had said and obfuscating
the entire discussion with some mumbo jumbo that had
nothing to do with Gilbert's original point that
cancer is not spread by exposure to air.
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-16 01:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you
develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
I am with you, Mario.
No Goan is going to consult his grandmother in such a
case. Also, rest assured that neither will s/he
consult a doctor like Carma Cruise.
Post by Mario Goveia
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED
MEDICAL FIELDS, especially ones who did not have
the wisdom to realize what a practising oncologist >
had said IN SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical
Post by Mario Goveia
correlations could be mistaken for causes by Goan >
grandmothers.


I for one, am going to run away from any medical
professional who will start his description of a
malady by referring to a Goan grandmother :-)

It's that simple.

Mervyn3.0


__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Mario Goveia
2006-10-16 16:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
In PLAIN English let me once again ask.
Can you or Gilbert please provide for the benefit of
the scientists on this forum the name and date of
the journal where the mouse experiment (carried
out a few years ago) that Gilbert was referring to
was published?
Mario responds:
Sunith,
Since when did you join the fraternity of medical
scientists? Besides, what gives you any more standing
in a cancer debate than a cancer survivor?
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
why don't you go back to the original post by Gilbert
and see if you can figure out his conclusion, as
opposed to the minutiae that you seem hung up on in
joining the attempt to discredit him? Instead of
looking for experimental mice, see if you can find
what DANGEROUS MYTH he had propagated, ABOUT HUMANS.
Also, see if you can find where he had concluded that
tumors are spread by exposure to air as claimed by
some of his critics.
Secondly, what part of my following conclusion did you
not understand:
"Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers."
As a cancer survivor I not only have a right but an
obligation to expose mean-spirited know-it-alls who
are not only unqualified to opine on cancer treatment
but are experts at catching the bull by the tail for
reasons unrelated to the comments in question. I know
from personal experience something I hope you will
never learn, that, for a cancer patient, even just
being an experienced oncologist is not good enough, if
the oncologist is not experienced in the particular
form of cancer that is at issue.
So, feel free to continue to look for the trees while
missing the woods they belong in.
Mario Goveia
2006-10-18 14:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his
temper. He'll start foul-mouthing you soon.
Mario observes:
RKN,
Thanks for providing more proof that the left-wing
that you belong to has reached a point of intellectual
exhaustion if not total bankruptcy:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-05 14:08:07 UTC
Permalink
If a "mistake" is perceived in ANY post, it should
be questioned, even criticized, in a constructive
manner and a clarification obtained. There is no
excuse to rush to judgement using selected excerpts
from a post, ignoring other comments in the same
post, followed by a vicious verbal attack on the
writer.
--- Mervyn Lobo wrote:
Verbal attacks?
The bottom line is that Gilbert's article was badly
written, in fact incomprehensible to me. The subject
however, was a serious one: cancer. I am glad that
people took the time to point out and correct all the
faults of that post.
Mario responds:
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have to
figure out for yourself.
Because the subject was a serious one, being addressed
by a Board Certified oncologist, it should have been
taken seriously and questioned in a civil manner.
Instead it was attacked for no apparent reason.
The conclusions in Gilbert's post were as follows.
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"."
Here is how Santosh responded to Gilbert's conclusions
shown above:
From,
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
SH: "The post appended below propagates dangerous
myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in
this public forum."
MG: No such dangerous myth was being propagated as we
can see from Gilbert's conclusions shown above.
Another example:
SH: "Here is a link to an article from the Mayo
Clinic, debunking the myth that tumor spreads when it
is exposed to air,..."
MG: No such myth had been suggested. Just the
opposite. Gilbert had explained that tumors do not
spread when exposed to air, which is what the Goan
grandmothers thought was causing any such spread, but
by a suppression of the immune system in his opinion.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-06 18:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may realize
that is exactly what I said.

I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
Mervyn3.0
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.



__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Mario Goveia
2006-10-11 15:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may
realize that is exactly what I said.
I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario responds:
There is a thrash section in the Goanet archives. It
is the section that contains posts by those who are in
my spam list for obvious reasons.
I am alerted to the most egregious thrash by other
Goanetters especially when gross misrepresentations
are being made.
Here are some of the Gilbert's opinions that Mervyn
says were incomprehensible to him for reasons that are
incomprehensible to me. Yet, this admission of
incomprehensibility did not constrain Mervyn from
continuing to defend those who chose to misrepresent
Gilbert's opinions as spreading "dangerous myths":
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
Post by Mario Goveia
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"." [end of excerpts]
Somehow this got twisted into mean-spirited
allegations that Gilbert, a Board Certified
oncologist, had said that tumors grew by exposure to
air and allegations of a propagation of dangerous
myths and insinuations by a non-oncologist who doesn't
even practice medicine, that improper treatment of
cancer was being propagated.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-12 05:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Those who have read the surgical oncologist Jayant
Vaidya's post that I had posted, and those who have
tried hard to look for the description of the
so-called mouse experiment in the medical scientific
literature would realize why the following quote is a
gross misrepresentation of fact regarding cancer.

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote quoting
Post by Mario Goveia
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery
depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to
now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence
cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing
significant shift......"
Both Jayant and I have not been able to find a single
paper on a mouse study with the description provided
by Gilbert, and published a few years ago, as he
claimed, in the medical scientific literature. And as
Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments (described
differently) that have been done, have looked at what
are termed as anti-angiogenic effects that have
nothing to do with depressing the immune system.

As Mervyn pointed out in different words earlier, I am
happy that, with each rehash of misinformed comments
on this issue, I am getting an opportunity to expose
every single one of the many scientific flaws that I
had found in that original post by Gilbert in the
"Science as a Religion" thread.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-12 15:18:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet
archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario,
Seems that you are hiding from my questions AGAIN ;-)

Since you now had the last word on the extremely
baldly written cancer article, how about trying to
answer the questions above?

Mervyn3.0
PS. Just in case Mario is "unable" to see the
questions above, how about someone guiding him to what
he cannot see?




__________________________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com
Mario Goveia
2006-10-12 17:27:17 UTC
Permalink
And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic
effects that have nothing to do with depressing the
immune system.
Mario observes:
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-13 04:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless
mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are
suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune
system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom
I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-15 04:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.
Mario clarifies:
Here is what Dr. Helekar, a medical researcher who is
not qualified to treat any cancer patients had said
previously, quoting other people unfamiliar with the
discussions on Goanet:
"And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic effects
that have nothing to do with depressing the immune
system."
To me, a cancer survivor, this suggests that these
academics are propagating a dangerous myth when they
insinuate that surgery may have "nothing to do with
depressing" the immune system while attacking what an
experienced Goan oncologist had said and obfuscating
the entire discussion with some mumbo jumbo that had
nothing to do with Gilbert's original point that
cancer is not spread by exposure to air.
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-16 01:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you
develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
I am with you, Mario.
No Goan is going to consult his grandmother in such a
case. Also, rest assured that neither will s/he
consult a doctor like Carma Cruise.
Post by Mario Goveia
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED
MEDICAL FIELDS, especially ones who did not have
the wisdom to realize what a practising oncologist >
had said IN SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical
Post by Mario Goveia
correlations could be mistaken for causes by Goan >
grandmothers.


I for one, am going to run away from any medical
professional who will start his description of a
malady by referring to a Goan grandmother :-)

It's that simple.

Mervyn3.0


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Mario Goveia
2006-10-16 16:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
In PLAIN English let me once again ask.
Can you or Gilbert please provide for the benefit of
the scientists on this forum the name and date of
the journal where the mouse experiment (carried
out a few years ago) that Gilbert was referring to
was published?
Mario responds:
Sunith,
Since when did you join the fraternity of medical
scientists? Besides, what gives you any more standing
in a cancer debate than a cancer survivor?
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
why don't you go back to the original post by Gilbert
and see if you can figure out his conclusion, as
opposed to the minutiae that you seem hung up on in
joining the attempt to discredit him? Instead of
looking for experimental mice, see if you can find
what DANGEROUS MYTH he had propagated, ABOUT HUMANS.
Also, see if you can find where he had concluded that
tumors are spread by exposure to air as claimed by
some of his critics.
Secondly, what part of my following conclusion did you
not understand:
"Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers."
As a cancer survivor I not only have a right but an
obligation to expose mean-spirited know-it-alls who
are not only unqualified to opine on cancer treatment
but are experts at catching the bull by the tail for
reasons unrelated to the comments in question. I know
from personal experience something I hope you will
never learn, that, for a cancer patient, even just
being an experienced oncologist is not good enough, if
the oncologist is not experienced in the particular
form of cancer that is at issue.
So, feel free to continue to look for the trees while
missing the woods they belong in.
Mario Goveia
2006-10-18 14:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his
temper. He'll start foul-mouthing you soon.
Mario observes:
RKN,
Thanks for providing more proof that the left-wing
that you belong to has reached a point of intellectual
exhaustion if not total bankruptcy:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-05 14:08:07 UTC
Permalink
If a "mistake" is perceived in ANY post, it should
be questioned, even criticized, in a constructive
manner and a clarification obtained. There is no
excuse to rush to judgement using selected excerpts
from a post, ignoring other comments in the same
post, followed by a vicious verbal attack on the
writer.
--- Mervyn Lobo wrote:
Verbal attacks?
The bottom line is that Gilbert's article was badly
written, in fact incomprehensible to me. The subject
however, was a serious one: cancer. I am glad that
people took the time to point out and correct all the
faults of that post.
Mario responds:
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have to
figure out for yourself.
Because the subject was a serious one, being addressed
by a Board Certified oncologist, it should have been
taken seriously and questioned in a civil manner.
Instead it was attacked for no apparent reason.
The conclusions in Gilbert's post were as follows.
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"."
Here is how Santosh responded to Gilbert's conclusions
shown above:
From,
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
SH: "The post appended below propagates dangerous
myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in
this public forum."
MG: No such dangerous myth was being propagated as we
can see from Gilbert's conclusions shown above.
Another example:
SH: "Here is a link to an article from the Mayo
Clinic, debunking the myth that tumor spreads when it
is exposed to air,..."
MG: No such myth had been suggested. Just the
opposite. Gilbert had explained that tumors do not
spread when exposed to air, which is what the Goan
grandmothers thought was causing any such spread, but
by a suppression of the immune system in his opinion.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-06 18:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may realize
that is exactly what I said.

I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
Mervyn3.0
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.



__________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2006-10-11 15:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may
realize that is exactly what I said.
I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario responds:
There is a thrash section in the Goanet archives. It
is the section that contains posts by those who are in
my spam list for obvious reasons.
I am alerted to the most egregious thrash by other
Goanetters especially when gross misrepresentations
are being made.
Here are some of the Gilbert's opinions that Mervyn
says were incomprehensible to him for reasons that are
incomprehensible to me. Yet, this admission of
incomprehensibility did not constrain Mervyn from
continuing to defend those who chose to misrepresent
Gilbert's opinions as spreading "dangerous myths":
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
Post by Mario Goveia
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"." [end of excerpts]
Somehow this got twisted into mean-spirited
allegations that Gilbert, a Board Certified
oncologist, had said that tumors grew by exposure to
air and allegations of a propagation of dangerous
myths and insinuations by a non-oncologist who doesn't
even practice medicine, that improper treatment of
cancer was being propagated.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-12 05:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Those who have read the surgical oncologist Jayant
Vaidya's post that I had posted, and those who have
tried hard to look for the description of the
so-called mouse experiment in the medical scientific
literature would realize why the following quote is a
gross misrepresentation of fact regarding cancer.

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote quoting
Post by Mario Goveia
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery
depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to
now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence
cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing
significant shift......"
Both Jayant and I have not been able to find a single
paper on a mouse study with the description provided
by Gilbert, and published a few years ago, as he
claimed, in the medical scientific literature. And as
Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments (described
differently) that have been done, have looked at what
are termed as anti-angiogenic effects that have
nothing to do with depressing the immune system.

As Mervyn pointed out in different words earlier, I am
happy that, with each rehash of misinformed comments
on this issue, I am getting an opportunity to expose
every single one of the many scientific flaws that I
had found in that original post by Gilbert in the
"Science as a Religion" thread.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-12 15:18:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet
archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario,
Seems that you are hiding from my questions AGAIN ;-)

Since you now had the last word on the extremely
baldly written cancer article, how about trying to
answer the questions above?

Mervyn3.0
PS. Just in case Mario is "unable" to see the
questions above, how about someone guiding him to what
he cannot see?




__________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2006-10-12 17:27:17 UTC
Permalink
And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic
effects that have nothing to do with depressing the
immune system.
Mario observes:
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-13 04:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless
mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are
suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune
system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom
I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-15 04:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.
Mario clarifies:
Here is what Dr. Helekar, a medical researcher who is
not qualified to treat any cancer patients had said
previously, quoting other people unfamiliar with the
discussions on Goanet:
"And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic effects
that have nothing to do with depressing the immune
system."
To me, a cancer survivor, this suggests that these
academics are propagating a dangerous myth when they
insinuate that surgery may have "nothing to do with
depressing" the immune system while attacking what an
experienced Goan oncologist had said and obfuscating
the entire discussion with some mumbo jumbo that had
nothing to do with Gilbert's original point that
cancer is not spread by exposure to air.
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-16 01:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you
develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
I am with you, Mario.
No Goan is going to consult his grandmother in such a
case. Also, rest assured that neither will s/he
consult a doctor like Carma Cruise.
Post by Mario Goveia
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED
MEDICAL FIELDS, especially ones who did not have
the wisdom to realize what a practising oncologist >
had said IN SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical
Post by Mario Goveia
correlations could be mistaken for causes by Goan >
grandmothers.


I for one, am going to run away from any medical
professional who will start his description of a
malady by referring to a Goan grandmother :-)

It's that simple.

Mervyn3.0


__________________________________________________
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Mario Goveia
2006-10-16 16:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
In PLAIN English let me once again ask.
Can you or Gilbert please provide for the benefit of
the scientists on this forum the name and date of
the journal where the mouse experiment (carried
out a few years ago) that Gilbert was referring to
was published?
Mario responds:
Sunith,
Since when did you join the fraternity of medical
scientists? Besides, what gives you any more standing
in a cancer debate than a cancer survivor?
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
why don't you go back to the original post by Gilbert
and see if you can figure out his conclusion, as
opposed to the minutiae that you seem hung up on in
joining the attempt to discredit him? Instead of
looking for experimental mice, see if you can find
what DANGEROUS MYTH he had propagated, ABOUT HUMANS.
Also, see if you can find where he had concluded that
tumors are spread by exposure to air as claimed by
some of his critics.
Secondly, what part of my following conclusion did you
not understand:
"Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers."
As a cancer survivor I not only have a right but an
obligation to expose mean-spirited know-it-alls who
are not only unqualified to opine on cancer treatment
but are experts at catching the bull by the tail for
reasons unrelated to the comments in question. I know
from personal experience something I hope you will
never learn, that, for a cancer patient, even just
being an experienced oncologist is not good enough, if
the oncologist is not experienced in the particular
form of cancer that is at issue.
So, feel free to continue to look for the trees while
missing the woods they belong in.
Mario Goveia
2006-10-18 14:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his
temper. He'll start foul-mouthing you soon.
Mario observes:
RKN,
Thanks for providing more proof that the left-wing
that you belong to has reached a point of intellectual
exhaustion if not total bankruptcy:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-05 14:08:07 UTC
Permalink
If a "mistake" is perceived in ANY post, it should
be questioned, even criticized, in a constructive
manner and a clarification obtained. There is no
excuse to rush to judgement using selected excerpts
from a post, ignoring other comments in the same
post, followed by a vicious verbal attack on the
writer.
--- Mervyn Lobo wrote:
Verbal attacks?
The bottom line is that Gilbert's article was badly
written, in fact incomprehensible to me. The subject
however, was a serious one: cancer. I am glad that
people took the time to point out and correct all the
faults of that post.
Mario responds:
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have to
figure out for yourself.
Because the subject was a serious one, being addressed
by a Board Certified oncologist, it should have been
taken seriously and questioned in a civil manner.
Instead it was attacked for no apparent reason.
The conclusions in Gilbert's post were as follows.
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"."
Here is how Santosh responded to Gilbert's conclusions
shown above:
From,
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
SH: "The post appended below propagates dangerous
myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in
this public forum."
MG: No such dangerous myth was being propagated as we
can see from Gilbert's conclusions shown above.
Another example:
SH: "Here is a link to an article from the Mayo
Clinic, debunking the myth that tumor spreads when it
is exposed to air,..."
MG: No such myth had been suggested. Just the
opposite. Gilbert had explained that tumors do not
spread when exposed to air, which is what the Goan
grandmothers thought was causing any such spread, but
by a suppression of the immune system in his opinion.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-06 18:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may realize
that is exactly what I said.

I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
Mervyn3.0
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.



__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Mario Goveia
2006-10-11 15:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may
realize that is exactly what I said.
I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario responds:
There is a thrash section in the Goanet archives. It
is the section that contains posts by those who are in
my spam list for obvious reasons.
I am alerted to the most egregious thrash by other
Goanetters especially when gross misrepresentations
are being made.
Here are some of the Gilbert's opinions that Mervyn
says were incomprehensible to him for reasons that are
incomprehensible to me. Yet, this admission of
incomprehensibility did not constrain Mervyn from
continuing to defend those who chose to misrepresent
Gilbert's opinions as spreading "dangerous myths":
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
Post by Mario Goveia
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"." [end of excerpts]
Somehow this got twisted into mean-spirited
allegations that Gilbert, a Board Certified
oncologist, had said that tumors grew by exposure to
air and allegations of a propagation of dangerous
myths and insinuations by a non-oncologist who doesn't
even practice medicine, that improper treatment of
cancer was being propagated.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-12 05:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Those who have read the surgical oncologist Jayant
Vaidya's post that I had posted, and those who have
tried hard to look for the description of the
so-called mouse experiment in the medical scientific
literature would realize why the following quote is a
gross misrepresentation of fact regarding cancer.

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote quoting
Post by Mario Goveia
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery
depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to
now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence
cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing
significant shift......"
Both Jayant and I have not been able to find a single
paper on a mouse study with the description provided
by Gilbert, and published a few years ago, as he
claimed, in the medical scientific literature. And as
Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments (described
differently) that have been done, have looked at what
are termed as anti-angiogenic effects that have
nothing to do with depressing the immune system.

As Mervyn pointed out in different words earlier, I am
happy that, with each rehash of misinformed comments
on this issue, I am getting an opportunity to expose
every single one of the many scientific flaws that I
had found in that original post by Gilbert in the
"Science as a Religion" thread.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-12 15:18:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet
archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario,
Seems that you are hiding from my questions AGAIN ;-)

Since you now had the last word on the extremely
baldly written cancer article, how about trying to
answer the questions above?

Mervyn3.0
PS. Just in case Mario is "unable" to see the
questions above, how about someone guiding him to what
he cannot see?




__________________________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com
Mario Goveia
2006-10-12 17:27:17 UTC
Permalink
And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic
effects that have nothing to do with depressing the
immune system.
Mario observes:
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-13 04:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless
mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are
suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune
system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom
I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-15 04:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.
Mario clarifies:
Here is what Dr. Helekar, a medical researcher who is
not qualified to treat any cancer patients had said
previously, quoting other people unfamiliar with the
discussions on Goanet:
"And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic effects
that have nothing to do with depressing the immune
system."
To me, a cancer survivor, this suggests that these
academics are propagating a dangerous myth when they
insinuate that surgery may have "nothing to do with
depressing" the immune system while attacking what an
experienced Goan oncologist had said and obfuscating
the entire discussion with some mumbo jumbo that had
nothing to do with Gilbert's original point that
cancer is not spread by exposure to air.
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-16 01:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you
develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
I am with you, Mario.
No Goan is going to consult his grandmother in such a
case. Also, rest assured that neither will s/he
consult a doctor like Carma Cruise.
Post by Mario Goveia
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED
MEDICAL FIELDS, especially ones who did not have
the wisdom to realize what a practising oncologist >
had said IN SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical
Post by Mario Goveia
correlations could be mistaken for causes by Goan >
grandmothers.


I for one, am going to run away from any medical
professional who will start his description of a
malady by referring to a Goan grandmother :-)

It's that simple.

Mervyn3.0


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Mario Goveia
2006-10-16 16:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
In PLAIN English let me once again ask.
Can you or Gilbert please provide for the benefit of
the scientists on this forum the name and date of
the journal where the mouse experiment (carried
out a few years ago) that Gilbert was referring to
was published?
Mario responds:
Sunith,
Since when did you join the fraternity of medical
scientists? Besides, what gives you any more standing
in a cancer debate than a cancer survivor?
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
why don't you go back to the original post by Gilbert
and see if you can figure out his conclusion, as
opposed to the minutiae that you seem hung up on in
joining the attempt to discredit him? Instead of
looking for experimental mice, see if you can find
what DANGEROUS MYTH he had propagated, ABOUT HUMANS.
Also, see if you can find where he had concluded that
tumors are spread by exposure to air as claimed by
some of his critics.
Secondly, what part of my following conclusion did you
not understand:
"Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers."
As a cancer survivor I not only have a right but an
obligation to expose mean-spirited know-it-alls who
are not only unqualified to opine on cancer treatment
but are experts at catching the bull by the tail for
reasons unrelated to the comments in question. I know
from personal experience something I hope you will
never learn, that, for a cancer patient, even just
being an experienced oncologist is not good enough, if
the oncologist is not experienced in the particular
form of cancer that is at issue.
So, feel free to continue to look for the trees while
missing the woods they belong in.
Mario Goveia
2006-10-18 14:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Radhakrishnan Nair
Sunith, beware! Mario is beginning to lose his
temper. He'll start foul-mouthing you soon.
Mario observes:
RKN,
Thanks for providing more proof that the left-wing
that you belong to has reached a point of intellectual
exhaustion if not total bankruptcy:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-05 14:08:07 UTC
Permalink
If a "mistake" is perceived in ANY post, it should
be questioned, even criticized, in a constructive
manner and a clarification obtained. There is no
excuse to rush to judgement using selected excerpts
from a post, ignoring other comments in the same
post, followed by a vicious verbal attack on the
writer.
--- Mervyn Lobo wrote:
Verbal attacks?
The bottom line is that Gilbert's article was badly
written, in fact incomprehensible to me. The subject
however, was a serious one: cancer. I am glad that
people took the time to point out and correct all the
faults of that post.
Mario responds:
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have to
figure out for yourself.
Because the subject was a serious one, being addressed
by a Board Certified oncologist, it should have been
taken seriously and questioned in a civil manner.
Instead it was attacked for no apparent reason.
The conclusions in Gilbert's post were as follows.
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"."
Here is how Santosh responded to Gilbert's conclusions
shown above:
From,
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-September/048348.html
SH: "The post appended below propagates dangerous
myths and misinformation regarding cancer treatment in
this public forum."
MG: No such dangerous myth was being propagated as we
can see from Gilbert's conclusions shown above.
Another example:
SH: "Here is a link to an article from the Mayo
Clinic, debunking the myth that tumor spreads when it
is exposed to air,..."
MG: No such myth had been suggested. Just the
opposite. Gilbert had explained that tumors do not
spread when exposed to air, which is what the Goan
grandmothers thought was causing any such spread, but
by a suppression of the immune system in his opinion.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-06 18:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may realize
that is exactly what I said.

I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
Mervyn3.0
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.



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Mario Goveia
2006-10-11 15:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
The fact that it was incomprehensible to you and not
to several other readers is something you will have
to figure out for yourself.
My dear Mario,
If you read my post AND understood it, you may
realize that is exactly what I said.
I am going to post the following for the third time.
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario responds:
There is a thrash section in the Goanet archives. It
is the section that contains posts by those who are in
my spam list for obvious reasons.
I am alerted to the most egregious thrash by other
Goanetters especially when gross misrepresentations
are being made.
Here are some of the Gilbert's opinions that Mervyn
says were incomprehensible to him for reasons that are
incomprehensible to me. Yet, this admission of
incomprehensibility did not constrain Mervyn from
continuing to defend those who chose to misrepresent
Gilbert's opinions as spreading "dangerous myths":
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery depresses
the immune system, allowing the tumors to now behave
and grow even more aggressively. Hence cancer surgery
has undergone and is undergoing significant shift.
Post by Mario Goveia
From big radical cancer surgery we have turned /
flipped and are now into minimal / organ-saving cancer
surgery. Laboratory studies on humans show that
markers of the immune system are significantly
suppressed after major surgery."
and
"Yet I encourage all patients to use every option
available to improve their chance of being cured -
especially approaches that have no side-effects and
are cheap. I would not encourage patients to use
these alternatives as a subsitute to proven
treatments. These "yet proven" approaches should not
be overlooked because of our lack of "current state of
understanding"." [end of excerpts]
Somehow this got twisted into mean-spirited
allegations that Gilbert, a Board Certified
oncologist, had said that tumors grew by exposure to
air and allegations of a propagation of dangerous
myths and insinuations by a non-oncologist who doesn't
even practice medicine, that improper treatment of
cancer was being propagated.
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-12 05:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Those who have read the surgical oncologist Jayant
Vaidya's post that I had posted, and those who have
tried hard to look for the description of the
so-called mouse experiment in the medical scientific
literature would realize why the following quote is a
gross misrepresentation of fact regarding cancer.

--- Mario Goveia <mgoveia at sbcglobal.net> wrote quoting
Post by Mario Goveia
"The current explanation for this (statistical
significant) observation is that the surgery
depresses the immune system, allowing the tumors to
now behave and grow even more aggressively. Hence
cancer surgery has undergone and is undergoing
significant shift......"
Both Jayant and I have not been able to find a single
paper on a mouse study with the description provided
by Gilbert, and published a few years ago, as he
claimed, in the medical scientific literature. And as
Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments (described
differently) that have been done, have looked at what
are termed as anti-angiogenic effects that have
nothing to do with depressing the immune system.

As Mervyn pointed out in different words earlier, I am
happy that, with each rehash of misinformed comments
on this issue, I am getting an opportunity to expose
every single one of the many scientific flaws that I
had found in that original post by Gilbert in the
"Science as a Religion" thread.

Cheers,

Santosh
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-12 15:18:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mervyn Lobo
Don't disappoint your fans by trying to avoid the
questions again and again and again.
Post by Mario Goveia
1) There is no trash section of the Goanet
archives.
2) It would really be interesting to know why you
think there is such a section.
3) What makes you want to visit such a place?
4) Why would you trip over when you are there?
BTW, you can have the last word defending the
extremely badly written article.
Mario,
Seems that you are hiding from my questions AGAIN ;-)

Since you now had the last word on the extremely
baldly written cancer article, how about trying to
answer the questions above?

Mervyn3.0
PS. Just in case Mario is "unable" to see the
questions above, how about someone guiding him to what
he cannot see?




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Mario Goveia
2006-10-12 17:27:17 UTC
Permalink
And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic
effects that have nothing to do with depressing the
immune system.
Mario observes:
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Santosh Helekar
2006-10-13 04:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.

Cheers,

Santosh
Post by Mario Goveia
Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo about hapless
mice
that may or may have not been used in some arcane
medical research, if the comments above are
suggesting
that major surgery does not depress the immune
system,
it is propagating a dangerous myth in this public
forum by a non-practicing medical professional, whom
I
would not consult if I had a recurrence of cancer if
my life depended on it:-))
Mario Goveia
2006-10-15 04:25:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Santosh Helekar
Jayant Vaidya is a practising professional and
academic Goan cancer surgeon, as well as a basic
cancer biology researcher. The post appended below
uses a hypothetical conditional scenario to
misrepresent his views and credentials.
Mario clarifies:
Here is what Dr. Helekar, a medical researcher who is
not qualified to treat any cancer patients had said
previously, quoting other people unfamiliar with the
discussions on Goanet:
"And as Jayant pointed out, the mouse experiments
(described differently) that have been done, have
looked at what are termed as anti-angiogenic effects
that have nothing to do with depressing the immune
system."
To me, a cancer survivor, this suggests that these
academics are propagating a dangerous myth when they
insinuate that surgery may have "nothing to do with
depressing" the immune system while attacking what an
experienced Goan oncologist had said and obfuscating
the entire discussion with some mumbo jumbo that had
nothing to do with Gilbert's original point that
cancer is not spread by exposure to air.
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers.
Mervyn Lobo
2006-10-16 01:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario Goveia
Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you
develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
I am with you, Mario.
No Goan is going to consult his grandmother in such a
case. Also, rest assured that neither will s/he
consult a doctor like Carma Cruise.
Post by Mario Goveia
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED
MEDICAL FIELDS, especially ones who did not have
the wisdom to realize what a practising oncologist >
had said IN SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical
Post by Mario Goveia
correlations could be mistaken for causes by Goan >
grandmothers.


I for one, am going to run away from any medical
professional who will start his description of a
malady by referring to a Goan grandmother :-)

It's that simple.

Mervyn3.0


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Mario Goveia
2006-10-16 16:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sunith Velho
In PLAIN English let me once again ask.
Can you or Gilbert please provide for the benefit of
the scientists on this forum the name and date of
the journal where the mouse experiment (carried
out a few years ago) that Gilbert was referring to
was published?
Mario responds:
Sunith,
Since when did you join the fraternity of medical
scientists? Besides, what gives you any more standing
in a cancer debate than a cancer survivor?
As a developing scholar who fancies himself to have a
half-way decent command of English but still hasn't
grasped the difference between knowledge and wisdom,
why don't you go back to the original post by Gilbert
and see if you can figure out his conclusion, as
opposed to the minutiae that you seem hung up on in
joining the attempt to discredit him? Instead of
looking for experimental mice, see if you can find
what DANGEROUS MYTH he had propagated, ABOUT HUMANS.
Also, see if you can find where he had concluded that
tumors are spread by exposure to air as claimed by
some of his critics.
Secondly, what part of my following conclusion did you
not understand:
"Again, my advice as a cancer survivor who faced a
significant probability of not surviving a rare form
of cancer for more than 5 years is that if you develop
symptoms of ANY cancer, please consult a practicing
oncologist WITH EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FORM OF CANCER.
The last people you want to waste your precious time
on are academics and researchers IN UNRELATED MEDICAL
FIELDS, especially ones who did not have the wisdom to
realize what a practicing oncologist had said IN
SIMPLE ENGLISH, that medical correlations could be
mistaken for causes by Goan grandmothers."
As a cancer survivor I not only have a right but an
obligation to expose mean-spirited know-it-alls who
are not only unqualified to opine on cancer treatment
but are experts at catching the bull by the tail for
reasons unrelated to the comments in question. I know
from personal experience something I hope you will
never learn, that, for a cancer patient, even just
being an experienced oncologist is not good enough, if
the oncologist is not experienced in the particular
form of cancer that is at issue.
So, feel free to continue to look for the trees while
missing the woods they belong in.
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